WCBM

Transcript of radio interviews on Waldorf education and PLANS lawsuit, on 10/7/99, on WCBM 'Uninhibited Radio', Baltimore, Maryland, U.S.A.

Host: Les Kinsolving

Guests: Dan Dugan, People for Legal and Nonsectarian Schools (PLANS); Betty Staley, Rudolf Steiner College (RSC); David Alsop, Association of Waldorf Schools of North America (AWSNA).

California Federal Court lawsuit charges Waldorf school curriculum in public schools is occultism, led by Lucifer.

Earlier this week, my colleague, Tom Marr received on the Internet news of a lawsuit in California involving the Waldorf schools. Now one of these schools has been located in Baltimore city for 28 years. It has 250 students, preschool through 8th grade. They were invited to appear on WCBM tonight because we do not know if the conditions described in this California lawsuit apply in the Baltimore Waldorf school. So we invited them to participate, Ms. Vicky Westover.

The Baltimore school decided that they would prefer to be represented by Mr. Dave Alsop of the Association of Waldorf Schools in California, (sic) who is one of our two guests, no, one of our three guests. He will be representing along with Ms. Betty Staley. The other guest, Dan Dugan, is a former Waldorf parent, who is secretary of the recently organized People for Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools, or PLANS.

PLANS is so seriously concerned about what they charge is taught in Waldorf schools that they took the Sacramento public school district into federal court, for what they charge is the introduction of an allegedly occult religious curriculum, which they charge is, "The Waldorf education movement's weird spiritualism and psuedoscience". End of quote.

I'll detail in six segments some of the points raised by PLANS, which Federal Fudge Frank Damrell in Sacramento refused to dismiss. After each segment, we'll go to the representatives first for the Waldorf schools, for rebuttal, then to the representatives of PLANS, and then back to rebuttal and rebuttal and rebuttal, then to your calls.

PLANS charges, and this is a quote, "Waldorf schools are an activity of Anthroposophy, [Les stumbles over the word 'Anthroposophy' throughout this broadcast] a cult-like religious sect following the teachings of Rudolf Steiner". End of quote.

I can recall a Rudolf Steiner from theological seminary. He was an Austrian scientist, and what might be termed a gnostic, or one with a plan of salvation requiring very special knowledge. He not only founded Anthroposophy, but he also founded eurythmics, which was a new form of dancing. Mr. Steiner, who lived from 1861 to 1925, founded Anthroposophy as a break-off from Madame Blavatsky's Theosophy.

Mr. Steiner developed special exercises in meditation to liberate the chains of egoism to reach higher levels of knowledge. He taught a spiritual perception independent of the senses. Or in his own words, this is a quote: "The existence of a spiritual world comprehensible to pure thinking but only accessible to the higher faculties of knowledge latent in every man". End of quote.

Now that is the kind of gnostic and mystic salvation offer which was very widespread in the 1920's when Steiner died. It was so widespread that Sinclair Lewis's bestselling novel, 'Elmer Gantry' has summarized it as a means of looking upon the luminescent, absorbing the evanescent and letting your soul breathe.

Now, according to PLANS, Anthroposophy has taken on a much wider scope, including Lucifer.

[Commercial break.]

[Les:]

California Federal Court lawsuit charges Waldorf school curriculum in public schools is occultism, led by Lucifer. Pro and con tonight. This controversy is strong and detailed. We'll take it part by part, as we have learned about it. In six segments of this special report. As we conclude each segment, we'll go first to the representatives of Waldorf schools, and then to the representative of PLANS, and then if Waldorf wants to rebut for up to two minutes, PLANS will have up to two minutes to rebut if they wish.

Segment One.

On October the first, WorldNetDaily [<http://www.worldnetdaily.com/>] reported from Sacramento a report that was repeated by Tom Marr and by me on this air.

Les quotes from WorldNetDaily story:]

"The implementation of the Waldorf curriculum, an educational philosophy related to the new age religion, Anthroposophy, in some California public schools has stirred up controversy. Opponents say that it violates the US Constitution. People for Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools, an unlikely coalition of liberals and evangelical Christians has filed suit against both the Sacramento City Unified School District and Twin Ridges Elementary School District for allowing public funds to be used to set up schools which teach Waldorf curriculum. In the lawsuit, PLANS contends that Waldorf schools are intrinsically and inseparably based on Anthroposophy, a religion that PLANS further contends is occultic in nature.

"What is Anthroposophy? 'The Waldorf Teacher's Survival Guide' is designated by SCUSD as one of it's resource materials for 'training or instruction on Waldorf teaching methods or Waldorf curriculum'. WorldNetDaily obtained a copy of this 67-page pamphlet, published in 1992 and written by Eugene Schwartz, head of the Waldorf teacher training program at Sunbridge College in Spring Valley, N.Y. The guide says on page 54," -- and this is a quote -- "'Most of that which contributes to our work as teachers, preparation work, artistic work, even meditative work is under the guidance (sic) [PLANS quoted the book as saying guardianship] of Lucifer. We can become great teachers under his supervision, for he is responsible for much of what has blossomed in the unfolding of civilization and culture in the past". End of quote.

Lucifer?

In Anthroposophical doctrine, Lucifer is the god of light, his antagonist is Ahriman, the god of darkness, which sounds to me like something very close to Zoroastrianism. To balance these two opposing forces, Christ comes to earth as a sun god. When WCBM's Tom Marr mentioned this on the air, there was almost immediate reaction here in Baltimore, which led to the discovery of a Waldorf school in Baltimore. I wasn't aware of one, neither was Tom. Then we learned that PLANS, which has sued in Sacramento, has a web site which we received the following information, which our Waldorf Schools Association can refute, and our PLANS guest can substantiate.

What I find surprising is that while there have been a number of articles about the Waldorf schools in national periodicals like 'Skeptical Inquirer', The National Center for Sciences' 'Education Reports', 'Church and State', and 'California Schools', little, if anything has yet made it into the major media. These articles are headlined "Weird Science at Steiner Schools", "Is Anthroposophy Science?", "Waldorf Schools Teach Odd Science", "Charter for Indoctrination -- Why one Public School Teacher gives the Waldorf Schools an 'F'", "Waldorf Salad with Aryan Dressing".

PLANS charges the following:

"There is a huge amount of literature about Waldorf education which is produced within the closed system of Anthroposophy. Most of the available information fails to describe the spiritual mission of the Waldorf school system honestly.

"We have found that even experienced parents of Waldorf students usually know little about the Anthroposophical principles that determine the teaching methods and the Anthroposophical doctrine that permeates the curriculum.

"Waldorf education has never been examined critically to determine if it lives up to its claims.

"Steiner's theory of child development is based on reincarnation of the etheric body, and the astral body, and the 'I', [and] differs significantly from the consensus of child development specialists. It leads to some questionable practices, especially the teaching of reading, the teaching of science and the treatment of learning disabilities.

"Waldorf teacher training is woefully inadequate. The first foundation year is an Anthroposophical seminary program consisting entirely of the study of Steiner's spiritualist philosophy. Teacher trainees are required to read Steiner's 'Knowledge of Higher Worlds and it's Attainment', 'Reincarnation and Karma', and 'Occult Science'. In the second year, Steiner's spiritual scientific principles are applied to education.

"As the Waldorf movement grows, there is a growing need for evaluation from outside the Steiner cult. Parents and school boards should be aware that the representations from Waldorf promoters are deceptive. Since 1991, the Waldorf movement has begun to move into the public education, with teacher training workshops, Waldorf-method magnet schools, and Waldorf-inspired charter schools.

"In addition to the problems noted above, these activities have led to violations of church and state separation laws. The religious philosophy of Anthroposophy can not be separated from Waldorf education. For example the Theosophical scheme of root races and sub races is the framework of ancient history taught in all Waldorf schools, both public and private."

That concludes segment one. Welcome Mr. Alsop and Ms. Staley to uninhibited radio. You are up.

[David Alsop:]

Hi Les. I've got to say that this is my first time on the radio, so I'm a bit nervous.

[Les:]

Hi! We have a welcome bell for first time callers. (Bell ringing)

[Alsop:]

Well first I want to thank you for the beginning introduction, before we went to break. You did a good job of giving some background of Rudolf Steiner and the historical perspective of Anthroposophy.

[Les:]

OK I'm glad you got the pronunciation. It's taking me a little time, because you have to change it when it goes to Anthroposophical (laughing)

[Alsop:]

It is a mouth full, we know that. I don't know what sheet you are reading from there, with all this misinformation about Waldorf education and Anthroposophy, and I don't think, given the time we've got here and you want to go through six points, that it's possible to address everything you've raised, and you have certainly painted Waldorf education into a very negative spot.

[Les:]

No, I've simply quoting what PLANS ...

[Alsop:]

I understand that and that is their mission, to put us in the most absolutely negative light that they can ...

[Les:]

OK, now you have a chance to refute it.

[Alsop:]

Well, yeah, OK, can I refute it by first all saying that Anthroposophy is not a cult-like religious sect. Now, how can I prove that on the radio in five minutes, you know, it's just about impossible and the fact that we are being accused of that is upsetting and not correct, actually. Anthroposophy is not a religion at all, ah, it is a philosophy, it is a world view. It does not have any kind of creed or any kind of religious activities that people who read Anthroposophy undertake, um, we're certainly not a sect, I know that Mr. Dugan likes to portray us that way -- it's convenient for him to do that, but actually, um, the heart of Anthroposophy and Rudolf Steiner's work is really every individual's inner striving, um, working to be individually responsible and socially responsible, and all means not to give over their own initiative to an individual who would become the leader of the sect. And particularly Rudolf Steiner. In many many places, he encouraged that people think for themselves. This characterization that we are a religious sect, I flatly disavow, and I think it is totally wrong.

[Les:]

And Ms. Staley? Anything you want to add to that, or shall we go to the rebuttal?

[Betty Staley:]

Also there was this comment made about the public school, and I have to say to you, I called the counsel of the Sacramento Schools this morning. I was told by the lawyer was that, um, they, these parties did not address the issue of whether traditional Waldorf education was religious. They definitely did not say Anthroposophy was a religion, and yet Mr. Dugan and PLANS has been putting it out in their press releases, which is very misleading.

[Les:]

Mr. Dugan, welcome to WCBM

[Dan Dugan:]

Thank you very much. [Welcome bell.]

[Les:]

Dan Dugan, you're up.

[Dan:]

First of all, you mentioned in your introduction, which the Anthroposophists like, you called Steiner a scientist. Steiner was ne ver a scientist. He taught high school science, badly, but he never did any scientific work in his life, he never published a scientific paper, he lectured his followers on science at length, and if you read those lectures, with great misunderstandings of science. To call him a scientist is a big mistake

[Les:]

Well, I just was dealing from a number of sources from the encyclopedia of Religion.

[Dugan:]

Well his followers call him a scientist, but that's propaganda.

[Les:]

Well, OK, alright.

[Dugan:]

As far as Anthroposophy being a religion, The Anthroposophical Society of America publishes a pamphlet which describes Anthroposophy and they call it, "An association of people who would foster the life of the soul, both in the individual and in human society, on the basis of a true knowledge of the spiritual world".

Now, when you are talking about the life of the soul, I think you are talking about what would ordinarily be considered a religious matter, and when you are talking about a "true knowledge of the spiritual world", well that statement is first of all is about a spiritual world, which is a matter of religion, not a philosophy, and, um, when they say a true knowledge of the spiritual world, you're talking a religious sect, because they are implying that if what they teach is a true knowledge of the spiritual world, then what other people's knowledge might not be true.

[Les:]

Ok..., any rebuttal? I want to be fair.

[Alsop:]

We understand.

[Les:]

Let's go to Segment Two:

A California federal judge has refused to dismiss a suit by PLANS, against two school districts for adopting an allegedly religious curriculum based on an obscure 20th century occultist and spiritualist's educational ideas. US District Court Judge Frank Damrell sided with PLANS, saying there's no guarantee that public funding of Waldorf funding (sic) [education:] will not have unintended consequences of advancing its religious underpinnings. That's the judge.

PLANS contends, among other things, that public Waldorf schools are intrinsically and inseparably based on a new-age occultic religion called Anthroposophy. Public Waldorf school curriculum and teacher training are grounded in Anthroposophy's spiritual child development model, based on reincarnation and other occult ideas. PLANS said SCUSD identified 'The Waldorf Teacher's Survival Guide' as one of its resource materials for training or instruction in Waldorf training methods or Waldorf curriculum. This book, by Rudolf Steiner College Press, the same Anthroposophical institution that trained Sacramento's public Waldorf teachers. This book describes the agenda and methods of Waldorf education.

The Anthroposophical author, in a candid moment, describes the relationship between Waldorf Education and Lucifer: "Most of that which contributes to our work as teachers, preparation work, artistic work, even meditative work is under the guidance (sic) [guardianship] of Lucifer. We can become great teachers under his supervision, for he is responsible for much of what has blossomed in the unfolding of civilization and culture in the past". End of quote, from the Rudolf Steiner College Press. That's segment two. Your response, Mr. Alsop?

[Alsop:]

Well, it's obviously problematic, um, ah, my feeling is that Eugene Schwartz has totally missed the boat here and the way that he has written this in his book, uh, is misleading and erroneous and causing a great deal of trouble. In our Waldorf schools, and as you know, there is over 650 of them around the world serving probably 100,000 students. I think you'd be hard pressed to find any parent in any Waldorf school and even any teacher in any Waldorf school say that they are under the guidance of Lucifer, and I can not understand why Mr. Schwartz wrote this. I can't understand why PLANS is picking this one quote out of this very obscure book and running with it like this, but it is just flat out wrong.

[Les:]

Well, was this book published by the RSC Press?

[Alsop:]

Yes, it was published by the RSC Press, they publish a number of things. Some of the points I'd like to make about the Waldorf school is that we are a movement that's got people who are working on their own perceptions of things, and then sharing those with each other. This is not a movement that is depending on everything coming from Rudolf Steiner or Eugene Schwartz.

[Les:]

But SCUSD identified 'The Waldorf Teacher's Survival Guide' as one of its resource materials for training or instruction in Waldorf teaching methods, and this comes from the RSC Press.

[Alsop:]

Yeah, I know.

[Les:]

When did your movement repudiate this?

[Alsop:]

I'm doing that right this minute;

[Les:]

Oh, just now? Have you done it before?

[Alsop:]

[Inaudible in recording.]

[Les:]

Have you done it before, Mr. Alsop?

[Alsop:]

We don't censor work that comes from individual teachers. We publish it and send it around and let people think for themselves what they are going to do.

[Les:]

You mean the RSC Press has no authority whatsoever?

[Alsop:]

Absolutely none.

[Les:]

None. Oh..?

[Alsop:]

They are a press. They publish books. They, they're not the spokes-person for the Waldorf movement.

[Les:]

Now, let me ask you this. What are your views of Lucifer?

[Alsop:]

[Long pause.] It...I'm not so sure this is the place to do that.

[Les:]

Well, I'd like to know. Do you believe in Lucifer? Do you think he is a fact, or not?

[Alsop:]

For me personally? I believe in Lucifer. I believe we have to deal with questions of evil in our lives and that Rudolf Steiner characterized good and evil, with Lucifer definitely on the side of not good, and you know, I do not want to see anybody as a proponent of Lucifer.

[Les:]

OK, Ms. Staley? Do you want to add anything, or should we just go to ...

[Staley:]

I think you just also have to be very clear about the difference between what PLANS is interpreting and what actually happened, um, the lawyers of the school districts are going to come out with a press release because, uh, they have been so misquoted, and so has the judge.

[Les:]

And Mr. Dugan.

[Dugan:]

Well, I guess the Anthroposophists are a little embarrassed, because one of their leading speakers, Eugene Schwartz goes about and talks at Waldorf schools and conferences all over the country. He is one of their leaders, and, ah, now they are saying that he's [chuckling] ... now they are denying what he is saying. But there's plenty of literature about the position of Lucifer, and you explained it correctly when you were reading earlier about some of the text about how there is the ... deities which were adopted by Steiner from Zoroastrianism.

[Les:]

That's what I figured, I mean, I remember Lucifer and Ahriman but the good god in that one, was Mazda, in which we used the lamps.

[Dugan:]

Yes, in Steiner's sort of Europeanization of that, he identifies Lucifer as the fallen angel of light and Ahriman as the god of dark and the purpose of Christ in Anthroposophy, rather than redeeming mankind from sin, is to help mankind to balance the influences of these two other gods, who are contending against each other.

You know, they are denying that this is an important character. Let me read you another quote. I take all of my arguments directly from their publications. This comes from the Mercury Press, which is one of their main presses: "The more familiar we become with Rudolf Steiner's descriptions, the more does Lucifer grow to imposing greatness. As the god of beauty, of art, of wisdom filled light, he becomes the benefactor, a promoter of everything spiritual in man. Evermore do we recognize the truth of Rudolf Steiner's saying that in order to understand the Christ, the light from Lucifer's realm must increase in us." The author of that is a man named Aaronson. It is a publication which is listed in the Anthroposophic Press catalog.

[Les:]

Mr. Alsop, have you repudiated this other quote as well?

[Alsop:]

Sorry, I didn't catch the name.

[Dugan:]

Aaronson

[Les:]

Aaronson. He's also brought in the Lucifer situation.

[Alsop:]

No, I think the point here is that Rudolf Steiner was a very prolific man, and he lectured very widely, and of course in his lifetime, he wrote over 40 books from 6000 lectures and many of them deal with Ahriman and Lucifer and Christ and their role in Steiner's ... [pause]

[Les:]

And he founded ... now correct me. He was the founder of the Waldorf schools, right?

[Alsop:]

No.

[Les:]

Oh? He didn't found them? Who did?

[Alsop:]

He was not the founder of the Waldorf schools.

[Les:]

Well, he certainly had a connection with them.

[Alsop:]

Yeah, he had a connection with them, but actually Emil Molt, who was an industrialist in Stuttgart at the Waldorf cigarette factory was the person who founded the first school, and he asked Rudolf Steiner for his advice and assistance in devising a curriculum, a program for the school.

[Les:]

Let's go to segment three.

PLANS learned that at the Rudolf Steiner College, public school teachers were indoctrinated into Anthroposophy as a mandatory part of their training for the adoption of the Waldorf method in their public school. Teachers who voiced objection to occult spiritualism and pseudoscience were ostracized, PLANS says. Public school teachers were taught at the Rudolf Steiner College to categorize school children and make decisions about them according to the Anthroposophical belief in the medieval doctrine of "The Four Temperaments". They were taught to associate the child's temperament with signs of the Zodiac.

PLANS says Waldorf education and Anthroposophy are shot through with spiritualism and pseudoscience, from a rigid view of child development in seven-year periods, to the teaching of occult principles such as that everything is made of four elements, earth, air, fire and water. Waldorf people deny this, saying it's only a childish metaphor, but PLANS notes that it holds sway until children reach puberty, as Anthroposophy holds that children should be protected from abstract, intellectual concepts until then. Another occult belief taught as science, according to PLANS, is that the heart does not pump blood. Is that true?

[Alsop:]

The heart pumps blood, of course it does.

[Staley:]

I think it is really important to know the kinds of distortions that are going on.

[Les:]

OK ...

[Staley:]

I directed the training of the public school teachers. And what has just been quoted is absolutely untrue. It is almost laughable. Something that we just wouldn't even think about. The people who are quoting this just needs to be put under oath. Now, I think the other thing that is important is that the question of child development being criticized, first of all, Mr. Dugan is not a psychologist or child development person. But I can quote for you from Ernest Boyer, the former US Commissioner of Education, from Elliot Eisner from Stanford University, Kenneth Chennault from American Express, Joseph Weizenbaum from MIT, and on and on and on of people who have investigated Waldorf education, who feel that the child development model is the cutting edge of where we are going and many of those things that are happening in Waldorf schools, they wish would be taken up in general public schools. Now we make a distinction between a private Waldorf and a public Waldorf-inspired program.

[Les:]

OK

[Staley:]

Private Waldorf schools hold, as private Montessori schools do, that the human being has a spiritual element but when it's brought into the public school, or in the public school teacher training, then the methods which are respected by these very fine child development experts are what is brought in, and these are such things as movement, the importance of music, the importance of story telling, of understanding when children learn to think. Mr. Dugan is entitled to his opinion of when he thinks children should have abstract concepts.

[Les:]

In other words, Ms. Staley, you're saying that no one connected with Waldorf schools or with, ah, Steiner has ever contended that the heart does not pump blood.

[Staley:]

The heart does not pump blood? I think they would say the heart is not merely a pump of blood, it also has other functions as well.

[Les:]

But there's never been a statement associated with Waldorf or Rudolf Steiner that contends the heart does not pump blood. Is that correct?

[Staley:]

How can I possibly say there has never been?

[Les:]

I mean to your knowledge ...

[Staley:]

To my knowledge.

[Les:]

Mr. Dugan, you're up. Where did you get this?

[Dugan:]

It is so interesting to see these people are back peddling so hard. I wish the Anthroposophists had the courage of their convictions to defend the doctrines which they believe in publicly. I went to a public school board meeting in the Twin Ridges School District in northern California, and at this public school board meeting, a number of teachers from the Waldorf charter school spoke, and they said that it was new scientific knowledge that the heart does not pump blood. You know, these are public school teachers who have been miseducated by Rudolf Steiner College, where Betty Staley works, and, um, these teachers didn't get that idea from anywhere except the RSC. It is a central doctrine in Anthroposophy, that the heart is not a pump.

[Les:]

Why is it so important?

[Dugan:]

It's one of the things which divide them from the rest of the world, as well it should, and I think if they are going to be Anthroposophists, they should defend Anthroposophy with pride, rather than trying to deny that, ah ...

[Les:]

How many of them testified to this extent, and where was it, Mr. Dugan?

[Dugan:]

This was a group of almost all the teachers at the Twin Ridges charter. Perhaps there were a couple out sick, or who weren't willing to face the school board.

[Les:]

Right. It was at a school board meeting and you heard them testify. Was this covered by The Sacramento Bee?

[Dugan:]

No, it wasn't.

[Les:]

I wonder why? I wonder why?

[Commercial break.]

[Les:]

Segment Four.

Oak Ridge Elementary School in Sacramento was converted to Waldorf methods in 1996. After parents started picketing, it was divided into a conventional school and a Waldorf school named Oak Ridge Waldorf Methods Magnet Annex. SCUSD received a $250,000 U.S. Dept. of Education grant to fund the Waldorf conversion, of which at least $100,000 has gone to the unaccredited RSC for teacher training.

A handout given to public teachers in their training reads: "The mood of the fairy-tale is truly the means to prepare human souls. The experience of what can shine in them from higher super-sensible worlds. The simple fairy-tale provides a preparation in human souls for once more accepting the divine spiritual words". End of quote.

Parents need to know that the foundations of Waldorf are permeated with racism. The framework of history in Waldorf schools is drawn from Steiner's teachings about races that emigrated from Atlantis. In a book purchased at the book store at San Francisco Waldorf School, Steiner wrote this: "If the blondes and blue eyed people die out, the human race will become increasingly dense if men do not arrive at a form of intelligence that is independent of blondness. Blonde hair actually bestows intelligence". End quote. Your comment, Mr. Alsop.

[Alsop:]

Well, you know, here we are again, switching from fairy tales to racism in the same sentence, that I guess what I want to say Les, is ...

[Les:]

Not in the same sentence (chuckling), that was two paragraphs later.

[Alsop:]

OK, I don't have those paragraphs in front of me. I feel at a distinct disadvantage here. Um, again I want to say this: For any parent or any person who is interested in pursuing what Rudolf Steiner had to say about various things, that there are over 6,000 lectures, there's 40 books in print. They are all readily available to the public for anyone that is interested in finding out about his philosophies and his view of the human beings and I think we should just encourage people to read that and decide for themselves what they think about it.

[Les:]

Are you denying he made mention of blondes and blue eyed people and also of Atlantis. I presume by that he means the allegedly lost colony (sic) of Atlantis. Are you denying he said that?

[Alsop:]

No, I do not deny that he said that. Of course he did.

[Les:]

Oh?

[Alsop:]

Of course he said it, but it's one small ...

[Les:]

But..

[Alsop:]

... small fragment of a huge body of work.

[Les:]

But it's kind of an important fragment.

[Alsop:]

It's not nearly as important as thousands of other fragments that I could give you if I had the time to prepare you the way Mr. Dugan has had the time to prepare you for this program

[Les:]

Do you, ah, no, he didn't prepare me at all. I was looking for information.

[Alsop:]

I never got a call from you asking for information.

[Les:]

Let me ask you this. Do you believe in Atlantis?

[Alsop:]

No, sir.

[Les:]

OK, I just wondered, ah, Ms. Staley? Anything you want to add?

[Staley:]

I think it is important. First of all I was at the same meeting as Mr. Dugan was at. I wish that he were under oath, but I'd like to also read to you a letter from Kenneth Chennault, he's the president of Federal Express [American Express], an African-American, who said "My parents were looking for a school that would nurture the whole person. They also felt that the Waldorf schools would be a far more open environment for an African-American, and that it was focused on educating the students with values as well as the academic tools necessary to be constructive and contributing human beings. A Waldorf education provides students with an approach to learning which successfully integrates the arts and sciences with the practical tools to succeed in these challenging times." So that is one in a long line of quotes, this whole thing is so ridiculous.

[Les:]

So let me ask you this.

[Staley:]

Also, you should remember. I think it's important. Rudolf Steiner was writing in the early part of this century. If we take Thomas Jefferson from the last century, Ralph Waldo Emmerson, we're going to find things that seem really strange today. It doesn't take away from the important things that they said.

[Les:]

Such as what?

[Staley:]

[Stammering a bit] ... Ralph Waldo Emmerson said and,

[Les:]

Do you think Thomas Jefferson believed in Atlantis and blondes and blue eyed people?

[Staley:]

No, Thomas Jefferson referred to people [Indians] as savages

[Les:]

Well they were. They certainly were savages, don't you think?

[Staley:]

That's a whole discussion we could have, but what I'm saying is ...

[Les:]

Are you suggesting that nobody acted on the, what he said was "The merciless savages on our borders". Do you think they were merciful?

[Staley:]

We could get into quite a discussion about Native Americans.

[Les]

All you have to do is say yes or no.

[Staley:]

I think that there are many Native Americans and I would not call them savages.

[Les, laughing:]

You wouldn't? Have you ever seen what they did to women or at the stake?

[Staley:]

This is not what we're here to talk about.

[Les:]

OK. Mr. Dugan, you're on.

[Dugan:]

Well, first of all, I don't accuse Betty Staley or David Alsop of being a racist, however, I do accuse them of supporting a system which is intrinsically racist due to the Theosophical system of root races behind it and, um, this still comes out today, this is not something from the 20's.

There was a group of scholars who came from Stanford University and they were visiting the public Waldorf school in Milwaukee, and they were invited to a meeting with a group of European Anthroposophists who were also visiting the school. They were shocked when the European Anthroposophists started talking about the folk soul of the African-American children and how their evolutionary stage was lower; how the education had to be adjusted for the child-like evolutionary stage of the black race.

Now this is common belief in Anthroposophy. Individual Anthroposophists will say they're not racists because they don't hold any ill will towards people of other races, but that's only one part of it. Teaching ignorance like that is also racism. That is part of Anthroposophy.

[Les:]

Segment 5:

More research revealed numerous examples of Rudolf Steiner's racial evolution theory can be found in the required reading for Waldorf teachers on the library shelves of any Waldorf school. Here it is in Steiner's own words: "We are within the great root race of humanity, which has peopled the Earth. Since the land on which we now live rose up out of the inundations of the ocean. Ever since the Atlantean race began slowly to disappear, the great Aryan race has been the dominant one on Earth. If we contemplate ourselves, we here in Europe are thus the fifth sub-race of the great Aryan root race. The first sub-race lived in the distant past in ancient India. The second and third and fourth sub-races. The fourth sub-race adopted Christianity. Then half way through the middle ages, we see that the fifth sub-race formed itself, to which we and the neighboring nations belong."

Anthroposophists continue to publish and defend Steiner's racial theory. The mythical theory of post-Atlantean sub-races that Steiner sketched in the quote above continues to be the standard framework for fifth and sixth grade history at Waldorf schools today, even in tax supported charter schools. Mr. Alsop, your comment.

[Alsop:]

What fifth and sixth grades are doing this?

[Les:]

It just says the standard, lets see, it continues to be the standard framework for fifth and sixth grade history in Waldorf schools today.

[Alsop:]

Well, I can tell you that I don't know of any Waldorf student that ever heard the phrase "Root Race". I don't know what exactly it is that you are referring to.

[Les:]

Alright, let's ask Mr. Dugan.

[Dugan:]

Of course they don't use those terms, but what I'm saying is the framework, the idea that the consciousness of humanity evolved through a series of different peoples is fundamental to Anthroposophy; and it is the framework for teaching ancient history, um, that man went through these stages. You don't find China in there, you don't find Africa in there, you find a sequence which is basically based on volkisch philosophy, 1920's German philosophy of the supposed evolution of the Aryan race.

[Les:]

Alright. I've got one more segment. Segment Six

Rudolf Steiner founded the first Waldorf school in Stuttgart, Germany in 1919. Steiner disagreed with Hitler's growing movement on many points and tried to form his own political party to advance his vision of Germany's mission. Steiner was harassed by Nazi thugs, but he died before Hitler came to power. During the Nazi period, Hitler suppressed all rivals and Anthroposophy was banned.

The Waldorf schools, however, were controversial within the Nazi party. Deputy Fuhrer Rudolf Hess intervened twice to keep Waldorf schools open, and Alfred Bonhart [Baeumler], leading Nazi educator wrote that the anti-intellectual climate in Waldorf education furthered the cause of Nazism. It was six years into the Nazi regime before all the German Waldorf schools were closed.

The Anthroposophists and the Nazis were in agreement on the theory that a mythical Aryan race had a cosmic destiny to lead the world into a new age. Steiner preached a progression of human evolution from Atlantis through successively higher races. This doctrine found a place in the mythology of the Nazi party.

When the author was a parent at the San Francisco Waldorf School, he bought a book from the school book store in which Rudolf Steiner stated the following, and this is a quote: "You see, when we really study science and history, we must conclude that if people become increasingly strong, they will also become increasingly stupid. If the blondes and blue eyed people die out, the human race will become increasingly dense if men do not arrive at a form of intelligence that is independent of blondness. Blond hair actually bestows intelligence. It is indeed true that the more the fair individuals die out, the more will the instinctive wisdom of humans vanish". End of quote.

Your reaction to that, Mr. Alsop?

[Alsop:]

OK, what I'd like to do is go back to Ray McDermott of Stanford University, whom Mr. Dugan referred to as having done a study at the public Waldorf school.

[Les:]

OK

[Alsop:]

In the paper that Ray McDermit wrote, he addressed some of what you are talking about and I'd like to quote from him.

He says the Waldorf community has rallied around the issue of racism and has been working to ensure that racism has no place in Waldorf institutions. We got a strong note from the president of the Waldorf Association condemning racism and promising to work against racism in all forms. Again, Ray McDermott. There are a lot of people trying to do good things in our troubled world. Like the rest of us, they may make mistakes along the way, but they keep trying. In Milwaukee, at the inner city public school there, they have accomplished more in the fight against racism than most of the other public schools across the country. Do not confuse the willingness to address issues with a confession of guilt.

He goes on to say that in over 400 volumes of his [Steiner's] stuff, there are a handful of pages that to our modern ear sound terribly stupid and racist. Kay? And I agree with that. This is not to say that Steiner or his transcribers did not make mistakes, but it is to say that careful reading of the work would lead one to an appreciation of Steiner's love for all children regardless of race, creed or color. Please note again the willingness of all Waldorf people to address this issue. I only wish that all public schools were so forthright on this issue.

This is a strong letter of support for Waldorf education, again, Ray McDermott: "I am not a follower of Rudolf Steiner. I am interested in the Waldorf community only to the extent it delivers good education. It does that job well. As a student of education, and as a parent with the vested interest in the happiness and fulfilment of my children, I believe that we need more Waldorf ideas in our schools. Waldorf brings both a gentleness and a thoughtful structure to early childhood education. We need more of this in both the inner city and the high pressure schools that dominate affluent districts." So, you know, I'm going to let Ray speak for us on that one. It is, ah, as I mentioned before. There are single quotes that do sound stupid, um, but ...

[Les:]

You don't deny that Rudolf Steiner made that statement?

[Alsop:]

No. You can find it in *a* book. You can also find other quotes in other books also by Rudolf Steiner that would completely speak the opposite.

[Les:]

You mean he was confused or what?

[Alsop:]

No, not confused ... just ...

[Les:]

Contradictory?

[Staley speaking in background to Alsop ... ]

[Alsop:]

Well, is that the point?

[Les:]

Well, the thing is this. He was the founder of Waldorf schools. He is certainly well thought of, but here are these embarrassing ...

[Alsop:]

We said in the beginning that we are not running around acting as disciples of Rudolf Steiner.

[Les:]

OK

[Alsop:]

We are free thinking individuals that are studying his work and taking what we can take, and doing the best we know how with children.

[Les:]

Alright. Ms. Staley?

[Staley:]

Again, I don't think there is time to really go into it, but I'd like to point out that the Milwaukee school is over 90 percent African-American, and I'd also like to say to you that the statement of those books that were quoted earlier were used in the training is simply untrue. I directed the training, I know what books were used, and as I said, I'd love to see that person speak under oath.

[Les:]

OK

[Staley:]

It is simply untrue.

[Les:]

Mr. Dugan?

[Staley:]

Mr. Schwartz's book? Irrelevant. I did regular research on the First Amendment, and I was very careful, as was our staff, on not putting anything of a spiritual nature. We do not deny spiritual nature of the child. When we teach to the public schools, we support the First Amendment, so our teaching was always in that vein, and the teachers who teach in those schools could tell you that. Thank you.

[Les:]

Thank you. Mr. Dugan?

[Dugan:]

Well the book we are arguing about, the Eugene Schwartz book, was published by the college, just recently, by the college Ms. Staley works for, and it was found, it was reported in a court discovery of evidence. It was found in the public school in Sacramento, in a library of resource materials that was assembled for the public school teachers at that public school. It is a matter of public record and I can certainly testify to that under oath. It's already in the court documents.

When I first saw that quote about the blonde hair in a book that was for sale at The San Francisco Waldorf School, I went to a teacher and said, "What is this strange Rudolf Steiner stuff?" They said, "Well, some parts of Steiner are difficult." That is all they would say, they wouldn't say they were wrong. Now it took the Lutheran Church about 400 years before they would repudiate what Martin Luther said about the Jews, you know, Martin Luther said terrible things about the Jews

[Les:]

He did.

[Dugan:]

And since then, fairly recently actually, the Lutheran Church has come out and said, "Look, we don't believe that, and furthermore, Luther was not divinely inspired and he was wrong about that".

[Les:]

Right!

[Dugan:]

That is all Anthroposophists have to do. All they have to do is to say, "We're sorry Rudolf Steiner believed that in his time, but we don't teach that, we don't believe that. We think he was wrong". However, they won't do that because everything is based on the ability of Rudolf Steiner to see the spiritual world, and if you start denying that he was right about one thing, the whole house of cards might fall down.

[Alsop:]

One more thing, Les. You made a comment earlier that all of the material that was in the public, in the press about Waldorf education was critical and hard to find. I just want to point out to you and your listening audience that in September of this year, there was a major article in The Atlantic Monthly called "Schooling the Imagination" written by an author named Todd Oppenheimer that really, this man spent six months researching Waldorf education in the public and in the private sector, and wrote a very excellent article, and I would encourage you and all of the listeners to, ah, take a look at that article.

[Les:]

OK

[Alsop:]

Also Education Week did a big article in 'Teacher Magazine' a few years back about the independent Pine Hill Waldorf School. We have been available, we have been written up, not only as something so unusual that it warrants this kind of attention, but also as an educational method that is being recognized and being pursued.

[End of interview and discussion. Followed by calls from listeners not transcribed.]