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-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1144 --------------
001 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Admin: web counter 23329
002 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: New to this server, but not the subject ...
003 - BruceyJ aol.com - Re: New to this server, but not the subject ...
004 - BruceyJ aol.com - German waldorf statistics
005 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: New to this server, but not the subject ...
006 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - MAKE $$$ FROME HOME!!!
007 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: German waldorf statistics
008 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - Re: MAKE $$$ FROME HOME!!!
009 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - Re: New to this server, but not the subject ...
010 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - Re: MAKE $$$ FROME HOME!!!
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1144.1 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Admin: web counter 23329
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:25:47 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
On March 14, 1999, the counter on the PLANS web site registered 23,329
visitors since August 12, 1996. The average number of visits per day in the
last month was 39.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1144.2 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: New to this server, but not the subject ...
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 01:40:57 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199903142202.OAA08477 lists1.best.com)
Bruce, you wrote,
)They want to show that all waldorf schools are useless, and all
)state schools perfect - well that is the impression you will get from reading
)this list, or the archives.
That's what you have to do to demonize PLANS, Bruce, lie about us. I'm sure
Arthur can read for himself.
-Dan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1144.3 ---------------
From: BruceyJ aol.com
Subject: Re: New to this server, but not the subject ...
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:48:05 EST
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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In einer eMail vom 16.03.99 10:50:12 (MEZ) Mitteleurop”ische Zeit schreibt
dan dandugan.com:
) Bruce, you wrote,
)
) )They want to show that all waldorf schools are useless, and all
) )state schools perfect - well that is the impression you will get from
) reading
) )this list, or the archives.
)
) That's what you have to do to demonize PLANS, Bruce, lie about us. I'm sure
) Arthur can read for himself.
)
) -Dan
)
Yes, Dan, I did write that, but you did not quote my entire post!
I also never suggested that Arthur should NOT read the archives, and it goes
without saying that he will be reading the list!
My point is that you (Dan and PLANS) might be inadvertedly turning parents
away from non-charter schools, and I do not believe that this is your
conscious decision. Please don't tell me I am wrong!
Bruce
PS I don't visit the PLANS web-site too often because I do not want to boost
the site-visitors statistic which Dan so proudly displays here (wg)!
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1144.4 ---------------
From: BruceyJ aol.com
Subject: German waldorf statistics
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:50:40 EST
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Dear list!
I am just reading a report about waldorf schools in Germany, and thought some
of you might like to see what goes on here:
There are 168 Waldorfschools in Germany, 68,000 pupils (worldwide 760
institutions).
58% come through with Abitur or Fachschulreife (ie University entrance
requirements), 30% with Mittlerer Reife.
Parents must pay between 50 and 500 DMark per month.
0.8% of all German pupils attend waldorf schools (this figure has dropped
slightly as a result of the reunification).
Bruce
PS I wrote a while ago that I would answer something when I had more time - I
cannot find the email now: is someone waiting for something from me (ie can
remember what it was!) - I shall have time after Easter.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1144.5 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: New to this server, but not the subject ...
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:50:01 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199903160942.BAA25728 lists1.best.com)
Dan Dugan wrote:
) Bruce, you wrote,
)
) )They want to show that all waldorf schools are useless, and all
) )state schools perfect - well that is the impression you will get from reading
) )this list, or the archives.
)
) That's what you have to do to demonize PLANS, Bruce, lie about us. I'm sure
) Arthur can read for himself.
)
) -Dan
That's what you have to do to demonize WE, Dan, lie about us. I'm sure
Arthur can read for himself.
-e
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1144.6 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: MAKE $$$ FROME HOME!!!
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:52:24 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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I just finished reading my latest issue of Natural Health Magazine, a great
resource periodically marred by reporting of studies I don't agree with (like
statistically significantly higher life spans of people healed at a distance
[people prayed for them]). Still, I agree with Linus Pauling's belief in
Vitamin C and the general thesis of optimal health: above and beyond pathology.
So I find it an invaluable resource for information on alternative health
paradigms and explanations in the realm of possibility. You take the good with
the bad.
The point of this story is at the end of this moderately alternative magazine is
an advertisement for the anthroposophical organization replete with a stern
portrait of RS (I told my GF about the conjecture on the RS picture. She agreed
it is primarily a function of the technology, not any desire to rule the world.
Someone here offered technology existed before this time for faster exposures,
and thus more natural poses. I think Kodak was the first to bring this
technology to the masses, and until the Kodak instamatic camera, people did not
smile and their poses were sullen.) In the body of the message are statements
eerily reminiscent of new age marketing scams. The advertisement suggests the
results of anthroposphy are evident in banking, industry... and at the end of
the list are the more familiar medicine, farming etc. Why is this advertisement
here? Why is it marketed like this?
Now perhaps I am reading the ad incorrectly (thanks to the poisoning affects of
this list) and it meant to convey that macro forces at work can be explained by
AS, rather than manipulated by it. Still, the context of the advertisement (in
between bio-magnets [which my mother believes in] and feng shui [sic on my
part]) and the wording make me suspect.
I hope I am wrong in my cognitive parsing of the event and the inferences I draw
from the advertisement, but something important occurred to me while I was
pondering the issues involved: Perhaps Steiner describes a new paradigm and it
is important. However, you cannot find the truth or value of this paradigm in
its application by a fringe group or the masses. In the first case there is too
much isolation leading to peculiarity and the second there is not enough
isolation leading to marginality. I think these are side effects of
exploration, not examples of truth.
Fascism is not the answer either. It is a shame (IMHO) RS is linked, at least
cognitively, to other fringe ideas through ads and group activity like this.
Perhaps bringing WE under State regulations is also unfortunate. Still, such
things need be tolerated for the sake of freedom, diversity and opportunity. I
hold these forces are powerfully compelling in and of themselves, and the
benefits to the system (be it educational, political or intellectual) are well
worth the costs.
Or maybe not, I could be wrong. That's just my opinion. - Dennis Miller
e
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1144.7 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: German waldorf statistics
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:18:20 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199903162007.MAA08453 lists1.best.com)
What is the State breakdown of College entrance statistics? For (a suitably
narrow) comparison I would appreciate Abiter and Mittlere catagories.
If you have the notion and the time...
Thanks.
e
BruceyJ aol.com wrote:
) Dear list!
)
) I am just reading a report about waldorf schools in Germany, and thought some
) of you might like to see what goes on here:
)
) There are 168 Waldorfschools in Germany, 68,000 pupils (worldwide 760
) institutions).
) 58% come through with Abitur or Fachschulreife (ie University entrance
) requirements), 30% with Mittlerer Reife.
) Parents must pay between 50 and 500 DMark per month.
) 0.8% of all German pupils attend waldorf schools (this figure has dropped
) slightly as a result of the reunification).
)
) Bruce
) PS I wrote a while ago that I would answer something when I had more time - I
) cannot find the email now: is someone waiting for something from me (ie can
) remember what it was!) - I shall have time after Easter.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1144.8 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: Re: MAKE $$$ FROME HOME!!!
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:20:01 +1300
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199903162147.NAA06454 lists1.best.com)
Ezra Beeman posted a huge long screed:
)I just finished reading my latest issue of Natural Health Magazine, a great
[snip]
)Or maybe not, I could be wrong. That's just my opinion. - Dennis Miller
)e
To which I responded regarding the photography of Rudolf Steiner, which
seemed to be an aside to the main thrust of this post.
However, while I would like to respond to the main thrust (about the
scam-advertising of Anthroposophical things), I can't do so until I know
who I'm responding to. (I responded to the mention of a photographic
technology for Steiner not smiling as if it was Ezra making the statement.
If that's wrong, I apologise, and redirect my criticism at the "Miller"
person, whoever that is.
Ezra, you really must take greater pains with your posts. It's unfair on
the rest of us to have to puzzle out whether it's you talking, or someone
named "Dennis Miller" who you are posting for.
And paragraphs would help a whole lot in following your train of thought.
Please help us out, eh?
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1144.9 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: Re: New to this server, but not the subject ...
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:43:28 +1300
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199903160942.BAA25728 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903162145.NAA03517 lists1.best.com)
)Dan Dugan wrote:
)
)) Bruce, you wrote,
))
)) )They want to show that all waldorf schools are useless, and all
)) )state schools perfect - well that is the impression you will get from
))reading
)) )this list, or the archives.
))
)) That's what you have to do to demonize PLANS, Bruce, lie about us. I'm
))sure
)) Arthur can read for himself.
))
)) -Dan
)
)That's what you have to do to demonize WE, Dan, lie about us. I'm sure
)Arthur can read for himself.
)
)-e
Michael KOPP says:
Nah, Ezra, you got it wrong. The _critics_ don't have to "demonize"
Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophical (SWA) things --
YOU'RE the ones with the spirit world, with good and bad little demons like
Ahriman and Lucifer fighting it out for your souls.
You folks are way-deep into auto-demonization ... or is that called "karma".
To address Bruces's and your claim that critics lie about SWA, it is only
necessary to find in the archives the many instances when critics have
noted positive things about their children's schooling, despite the fact
that we have had to remove our children from SWA schools, in the end,
because the balance between good and bad practices is tipped so far towards
the mumbo jumbo end of the scale.
Falsification of your claim also only requires reiteration of my
often-repeated stand that you are welcome to your demons, as long as you
don't visit them on my children, particularly without my knowledge or
consent.
It is clear from Steiner's own words, and the writings and teachings of his
educational followers, that SWA schools' entire raison d'etre is the
spiritual preparation of children for their next reincarnation.
Nobody told me that when I enrolled my children. The Steiner school we
attended, which is now a state-integrated school, still does not tell
prospective consumers that, either before or after they enrol.
Now that's lying, big-time. And the fact that it's in the literature, but
hidden from parents, seems pretty demoniacal to me.
And it seems reasonable to conclude that if a group of SWA critics has
found this to be so in the schools they have attended or investigated, and
it is taught in the SWA teachers colleges (seminaries), then the practices
must be widespread throughout the world's several hundred SWA schools.
Defenders of the faith may claim all they want that SWA is not monolithic
or even standardised -- but I think those claims ring hollow when there is
no significant dissent from SWA dogma by the defenders on this list
(excluding, of course, the few heretics, like Tarjei Straume and Tom
Mellett and Joel Wendt, who have either been cast out of the fold or were
never really in it).
So stop being so tit-for-tat peurile, Ezra, and deal with facts. Either
show some place where I have lied (or any other critic has -- and it has to
be more than a difference of opinion, or the stating of a reasonable
conclusion based on evidence available) or shut your silly little mouth.
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1144.10 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: Re: MAKE $$$ FROME HOME!!!
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:10:18 +1300
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199903162147.NAA06454 lists1.best.com)
Ezra Beeman tries to make photographic technology responsible for the
"stern" appearance of the guru Rudolf Steiner in all his portraits:
[snip]
)The point of this story is at the end of this moderately alternative
)magazine is
)an advertisement for the anthroposophical organization replete with a stern
)portrait of RS (I told my GF about the conjecture on the RS picture. She
)agreed
)it is primarily a function of the technology, not any desire to rule the
)world.
)Someone here offered technology existed before this time for faster
)exposures,
)and thus more natural poses. I think Kodak was the first to bring this
)technology to the masses, and until the Kodak instamatic camera, people
)did not
)smile and their poses were sullen.)
Michael KOPP says:
Ezra, you're into my territory now, as a professional photographer all my
life, and a teacher of photographic history. And you and your "GF" (what's
that -- Guru's Flack?) are talking through the tops of your heads.
This sounds like another example of the anti-technology,
poorly-educated-in-science Steiner teacher like the ones who taught my kids
pseudo-science in the Steiner school we attended.
I won't bore the list with the details, but suffice to say that Kodak made
cameras and film that were fast enough for "snapshooting" as early as the
1880's. Which is about the time the first adult pictures of Steiner were
made.
Film speeds and lens technology improved constantly throughout the early
part of this century. See the naturalistic snapshots of Jacques Henri
Lartigue for instances of the capturing of even fairly rapid action.
By the 1920's there were cameras that used 35mm film for instantaneuous
exposures as short at 1/1000th of a second.
The "Instamatic" camera is irrelevant to this discussion. It was just a
cheap plastic camera model of the 1950s and '60s -- it was nothing
meaningful in the technological progress of photography, and did not mark
any era except the marketing of cheap, small snapshot cameras.
It is entirely possible that every photographer who made a consenting
portrait of Steiner used slow film and long exposures. However, I think
it's a bit unlikely. And a few images of Steiner with what passes for a
smile do exist, so we know he had the capability.
My view (and it's also based on a hunch born of photographing thousands of
people in my lifetime) is that that's the way Steiner wanted to look. All
his portraits (except one) are either of the same side of his face or
straight on.
Steiner had charisma, and he projected it into the photographs. He even
projected himself into the sculpture he made of Christ. (A not uncommon
thing for amateur artists to do, as I understand it from psychological
studies of art.)
Those who haven't seen this effect yet, or don't know what we're talking
about, should see my World Wide Web page at
http://www.antipodes.co.nz/steiner
which is a compendium of photos of Steiner and one of his statue of Christ.
Of course, it's also possible that Steiner believed, like animistic shamans
of primitive peoples first encountering photography, that the camera steals
something of the soul of the sitter. Maybe that's why there are so few
pictures of him, and why he looks so wooden, almost fearful, in his later
images.
Get your history and facts right before you argue a case, Ezra. And stop
relying on your "GF" for interpretations of things Steiner/ Waldorf/ and
Anthroposophical, and do your own research.
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1144 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1145 --------------
001 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: MAKE $$$ FROME HOME!!!
002 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Recommended Speech
003 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - Re: MAKE $$$ FROME HOME!!!
004 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: MAKE $$$ FROME HOME!!!
005 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - Re: MAKE $$$ FROME HOME!!!
006 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - Re: Recommended Speech
007 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Conference at RSC
008 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: New to this server, but not the subject ...
009 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Admin: ad hominems (sorry)
010 - BruceyJ aol.com - Re: German waldorf statistics
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1145.1 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: MAKE $$$ FROME HOME!!!
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:20:24 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199903170031.QAA23721 lists1.best.com)
My apologies for not putting quotes around the paragraph I was citing:
"Or maybe not, I could be wrong. That's just my opinion." - Dennis Miller
(sarcasm)Point of parliamentary proceedure:(/sarcasm) Since this quote comes to me from watching his
political commentary show (he is formerly of Saturday Night Live fame) and I am not entirely certain
it is the exact quote though it is a tag line he uses, what is the proper annotation? Seems I
burned my Turabian book upon graduation. (grin)
Thus you can proceed with your Mai Lai style massacre of my entire message.
e
Michael Kopp wrote:
) Ezra Beeman posted a huge long screed:
)
) )I just finished reading my latest issue of Natural Health Magazine, a great
)
) [snip]
)
) )Or maybe not, I could be wrong. That's just my opinion. - Dennis Miller
) )e
)
) To which I responded regarding the photography of Rudolf Steiner, which
) seemed to be an aside to the main thrust of this post.
)
) However, while I would like to respond to the main thrust (about the
) scam-advertising of Anthroposophical things), I can't do so until I know
) who I'm responding to. (I responded to the mention of a photographic
) technology for Steiner not smiling as if it was Ezra making the statement.
) If that's wrong, I apologise, and redirect my criticism at the "Miller"
) person, whoever that is.
)
) Ezra, you really must take greater pains with your posts. It's unfair on
) the rest of us to have to puzzle out whether it's you talking, or someone
) named "Dennis Miller" who you are posting for.
)
) And paragraphs would help a whole lot in following your train of thought.
)
) Please help us out, eh?
)
) Cheers from Godzone,
)
) Michael Kopp
) Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1145.2 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Recommended Speech
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:44:53 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I recommend people read this speech given by Charlton Heston at Harvard Law School on Libertarianism
(my opinion):
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_excomm/19990316_xex_heston_speec.shtml
Astute readers will find connections to subjects discussed on this list.
e
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1145.3 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: Re: MAKE $$$ FROME HOME!!!
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:54:19 +1300
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199903170031.QAA23721 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903170358.TAA11999 lists1.best.com)
Ezra Beeman acts oafishly childish again:
)My apologies for not putting quotes around the paragraph I was citing:
)"Or maybe not, I could be wrong. That's just my opinion." - Dennis Miller
)(sarcasm)Point of parliamentary proceedure:(/sarcasm) Since this quote
)comes to me from watching his
)political commentary show (he is formerly of Saturday Night Live fame) and
)I am not entirely certain
)it is the exact quote though it is a tag line he uses, what is the proper
)annotation? Seems I
)burned my Turabian book upon graduation. (grin)
)Thus you can proceed with your Mai Lai style massacre of my entire message.
)e
Michael KOPP says:
I think the use of such phrases as in your last sentence, especially in
respect of someone who is known to the list to be a military veteran and
Vietnam War observer (non-combatant), is a bit insensitive, to say the
least, and an unmitigatedly nasty ad hominem at the most.
You, Ezra, would never use such a phrase unless it had some point. The only
point that can be, here, is to demean me and the military.
Now while I am a pacifist, and anti-war, and a dissident from the modern
(post-Bomb) use of the military for American foreign (read business)
policy, I do still have some sense of the necessity for a military, and the
honourable conduct of most of my fellow soldiers.
There is no excuse for My Lai, and too many people got off lightly. There
was no excuse for Vietnam, and too many people (like Henry the K) got off
scott free on charges of fomenting the greatest mass murders of our times.
So, to use such a term in a rebuttal to my criticism of your work is to
characterise me with one of the worst of excesses of that war.
I take that kinda personally, sonny boy, and I hope we don't ever meet,
because I'd be tempted to spit in your face (pacifist spit, you
understand). I'll forgive you this time because you're a poorly-educated,
callow youth (as you regularly prove with your posts here).
If you continue with such ad hominems directed at me, you'll start to get
the same treatment. Ask Stephen Tonkin how far a flame war can go; he and I
are the experts. Meantime, grow up and chill out. Play the ball, not the
man.
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1145.4 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: MAKE $$$ FROME HOME!!!
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:36:28 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199903170031.QAA23721 lists1.best.com) (199903170455.UAA08331 lists1.best.com)
It points out the hypocrasy you write by, plain and simple.
I don't care to outline the various layers of meaning (The Mai Lai massacre itself as a description
of your cognitive methods. Guilt by association methods. Low blows. Hypocrasy.) and go into them,
it is a waste of time in my opinion.
You might be tempted to force the issue, but I assure you delving into the details of these
ralationships would prove them as valid as most you suggest. One could quite probably spin most of
your inflammatory rhetorical devices into these terms each and every time they are employed. Think
about it.
Am I sullying your name with such rhetoric? Perhaps you have might have some empathy for those
innocents on this list associated (if only implicitly) with Naziism, Mumbo-Jumbo and criminal
behavior in general.
It isn't nice, is it?
e
Michael Kopp wrote:
) Ezra Beeman acts oafishly childish again:
)
) )My apologies for not putting quotes around the paragraph I was citing:
) )"Or maybe not, I could be wrong. That's just my opinion." - Dennis Miller
) )(sarcasm)Point of parliamentary proceedure:(/sarcasm) Since this quote
) )comes to me from watching his
) )political commentary show (he is formerly of Saturday Night Live fame) and
) )I am not entirely certain
) )it is the exact quote though it is a tag line he uses, what is the proper
) )annotation? Seems I
) )burned my Turabian book upon graduation. (grin)
) )Thus you can proceed with your Mai Lai style massacre of my entire message.
) )e
)
) Michael KOPP says:
)
) I think the use of such phrases as in your last sentence, especially in
) respect of someone who is known to the list to be a military veteran and
) Vietnam War observer (non-combatant), is a bit insensitive, to say the
) least, and an unmitigatedly nasty ad hominem at the most.
)
) You, Ezra, would never use such a phrase unless it had some point. The only
) point that can be, here, is to demean me and the military.
)
) Now while I am a pacifist, and anti-war, and a dissident from the modern
) (post-Bomb) use of the military for American foreign (read business)
) policy, I do still have some sense of the necessity for a military, and the
) honourable conduct of most of my fellow soldiers.
)
) There is no excuse for My Lai, and too many people got off lightly. There
) was no excuse for Vietnam, and too many people (like Henry the K) got off
) scott free on charges of fomenting the greatest mass murders of our times.
)
) So, to use such a term in a rebuttal to my criticism of your work is to
) characterise me with one of the worst of excesses of that war.
)
) I take that kinda personally, sonny boy, and I hope we don't ever meet,
) because I'd be tempted to spit in your face (pacifist spit, you
) understand). I'll forgive you this time because you're a poorly-educated,
) callow youth (as you regularly prove with your posts here).
)
) If you continue with such ad hominems directed at me, you'll start to get
) the same treatment. Ask Stephen Tonkin how far a flame war can go; he and I
) are the experts. Meantime, grow up and chill out. Play the ball, not the
) man.
)
) Cheers from Godzone,
)
) Michael Kopp
) Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1145.5 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: Re: MAKE $$$ FROME HOME!!!
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:34:14 +1300
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199903170031.QAA23721 lists1.best.com)
(199903170455.UAA08331 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903170533.VAA11322 lists1.best.com)
Ezra Beeman, in reply to Michael KOPP's complaint about Ezra's latest ad
hominem attack, in which he likened my critical tactics as like those of
the My Lai massacre, now replies (with his usual lack of precision and
sloppiness of editing and typing:
)It points out the hypocrasy you write by, plain and simple.
)
)I don't care to outline the various layers of meaning (The Mai Lai
)massacre itself as a description
)of your cognitive methods. Guilt by association methods. Low blows.
)Hypocrasy.) and go into them,
)it is a waste of time in my opinion.
KOPP replies:
But using phrases like "My Lai massacre itself as a description of your
[Kopp's] cognitive methods" apparently you have plenty of time for.
BEEMAN:
[snip]
)Am I sullying your name with such rhetoric? Perhaps you have might have
)some empathy for those
)innocents on this list associated (if only implicitly) with Naziism,
)Mumbo-Jumbo and criminal
)behavior in general.
)
)It isn't nice, is it?
)e
KOPP:
If you [Beeman] can't see the difference between me (and other critics)
challenging the ideas and dogma of your religion, on the one hand, and on
the other hand attacking you directly for believing, or characterizing you
as a Nazi or criminal, then you certainly did get a poor education.
I've said consistently you can believe what you want. If you choose to be
personally offended by my or other critics' characterizations of your
religion, then that's your problem.
Note that there IS a big difference between criticizing MY IDEAS, and
associating my thinking and criticisms with a heinous crime.
It's one thing for me to think that all believers in spirits and gurus are
gullible twits, and another for me to say that all believers in spirits and
gurus are Nazis or criminals.
You are the one making the charge that I have done this, but as usual, when
challenged, you say it would be a waste of your time.
Indeed it would, because I have never said or implied any such things. The
archives show that the strongest I have ever said is that I can see aspects
of Anthroposophy and Steiner's cult and actions that presaged, and perhaps
helped predispose the German people towards, the National Socialist Nazis.
And the archives will show that I have never said or implied that that
anyone on this list has practiced mumbo jumbo or any criminal act. All I
have said is that you defend a system which has wronged me by false
advertising, duplicity and stealth. Now if that brush tars you, then so be
it.
Ezra, you're becoming incoherent in such posts (to match your illiteracy),
and making a fool of yourself and your cause. I'd suggest you desist,
before you puff yourself up and pop.
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
)Michael Kopp wrote:
)
)) Ezra Beeman acts oafishly childish again:
))
)) )My apologies for not putting quotes around the paragraph I was citing:
)) )"Or maybe not, I could be wrong. That's just my opinion." - Dennis
))Miller
)) )(sarcasm)Point of parliamentary proceedure:(/sarcasm) Since this quote
)) )comes to me from watching his
)) )political commentary show (he is formerly of Saturday Night Live fame)
))and
)) )I am not entirely certain
)) )it is the exact quote though it is a tag line he uses, what is the
))proper
)) )annotation? Seems I
)) )burned my Turabian book upon graduation. (grin)
)) )Thus you can proceed with your Mai Lai style massacre of my entire
))message.
)) )e
))
)) Michael KOPP says:
))
)) I think the use of such phrases as in your last sentence, especially in
)) respect of someone who is known to the list to be a military veteran and
)) Vietnam War observer (non-combatant), is a bit insensitive, to say the
)) least, and an unmitigatedly nasty ad hominem at the most.
))
)) You, Ezra, would never use such a phrase unless it had some point. The
))only
)) point that can be, here, is to demean me and the military.
))
)) Now while I am a pacifist, and anti-war, and a dissident from the modern
)) (post-Bomb) use of the military for American foreign (read business)
)) policy, I do still have some sense of the necessity for a military, and
))the
)) honourable conduct of most of my fellow soldiers.
))
)) There is no excuse for My Lai, and too many people got off lightly. There
)) was no excuse for Vietnam, and too many people (like Henry the K) got off
)) scott free on charges of fomenting the greatest mass murders of our
))times.
))
)) So, to use such a term in a rebuttal to my criticism of your work is to
)) characterise me with one of the worst of excesses of that war.
))
)) I take that kinda personally, sonny boy, and I hope we don't ever meet,
)) because I'd be tempted to spit in your face (pacifist spit, you
)) understand). I'll forgive you this time because you're a poorly-educated,
)) callow youth (as you regularly prove with your posts here).
))
)) If you continue with such ad hominems directed at me, you'll start to get
)) the same treatment. Ask Stephen Tonkin how far a flame war can go; he
))and I
)) are the experts. Meantime, grow up and chill out. Play the ball, not the
)) man.
))
)) Cheers from Godzone,
))
)) Michael Kopp
)) Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1145.6 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: Re: Recommended Speech
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:15:53 +1300
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In-Reply-To: (199903170441.UAA26715 lists1.best.com)
)I recommend people read this speech given by Charlton Heston at Harvard
)Law School on Libertarianism
)(my opinion):
)http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_excomm/19990316_xex_heston_speec.shtml
)Astute readers will find connections to subjects discussed on this list.
)e
Astute readers will also know that sauce for the goose is sauce for the
gander.
A lot of what Heston said about intolerance and political (or religious)
correctness applies to the actions of believers and practitioners of
Steiner's cult, Waldorf schools, and Anthroposophy (SWA).
I certainly felt personally threatened and the victim of intolerance by the
teachers and authorities at the Steiner school my children attended. All
for asking questions like,
-why are you teaching my children that the Egyptians moved the Pyramid
blocks with sound power, and where's your evidence;
-why are you teaching my children that the heart is not a pump, and
where's your evidence;
-why are you teaching my children that Greek epic poetry's dactylic
hexameter originated because of the relationship between the number
of human heartbeats in life is equal to the number of years in the
platonic year (precession of the equinoxes), and in the same rhythm
as the proportion of heartbeats to breaths, and where's your evidence
and plenty of others. Now, it would certainly seem that SWA is intolerant
of skeptics, wouldn't it? But SWA practices deception on anyone who doesn't
do one hell of a lot of deep research to find the true nature of the cult.
Yet, curiously, it is the critics of SWA who are the loudest in upholding
the rights to existence and freedom of thought of SWA. They do this by
insisting on the separation of SWA from public, state institutions.
If SWA were to become a part of state schools, certainly it would be
subject to the dictates of the state, and that would contravene the
Constitutional prohibition against government interference in religion.
Critics don't want that: they don't want to _control_ SWA (except perhaps
if they start making false claims for quack medicine), they want to
preserve its freedom from control.
But they also want to preserve the freedom of secular, public schools from
the inculcation of the mumbo jumbo that is SWA.
One wonders why SWA defenders, adherents and practitioners are so desirous
of integration with that which they despise?
One wonders why SWA defenders, adherents, practitioners -- and graduates --
so rabidly attack critics, as in Ezra's likening of Michael Kopp's tactics
and thinking to a "My Lai massacre"?
I agree with most of what Heston says about the crumbling of the
rationality of society (and I can tell you it ain't just America).
But I think the shoe fits better on the irrationality of SWA and its
defenders, adherents, practitioners and graduates than it does on the
rational critics.
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1145.7 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Conference at RSC
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:26:41 -0800
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This weekend (March 19, 20, 21) there's a Waldorf conference at Rudolf
Steiner College, "Towards Healthy Waldorf Schools." Anybody on the list
attending? You're welcome to visit my open house the afternoon and evening
of the 21st.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1145.8 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: New to this server, but not the subject ...
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:53:34 -0800
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In-Reply-To: (199903161450.GAA05129 lists1.best.com)
Bruce, you wrote,
)My point is that you (Dan and PLANS) might be inadvertedly turning parents
)away from non-charter schools, and I do not believe that this is your
)conscious decision. Please don't tell me I am wrong!
With regard to the private Waldorf schools, I certainly want to turn away
those parents who, like me and so many others here, would not be happy with
what they found after the veil of deception was lifted. Some families want
their children brought up in nature/spiritualist religion, and
pseudoscience is more popular than ever. Waldorf is for them.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1145.9 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Admin: ad hominems (sorry)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 03:14:31 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199903162145.NAA03517 lists1.best.com)
(199903160942.BAA25728 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903170032.QAA24681 lists1.best.com)
)So stop being so tit-for-tat peurile, Ezra, and deal with facts. Either
)show some place where I have lied (or any other critic has -- and it has to
)be more than a difference of opinion, or the stating of a reasonable
)conclusion based on evidence available) or shut your silly little mouth.
Wait, stop. I'm sorry, I'm afraid I started this. But we must maintain
civility and I apologize for provoking people. Ideas, insensate phantoms as
they are (I differ from Anthroposophy, where ideas are beings), suffer no
pain when injured and are open to attack here. People are not.
-Dan Dugan
Moderator
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1145.10 ---------------
From: BruceyJ aol.com
Subject: Re: German waldorf statistics
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:17:35 EST
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In einer eMail vom 16.03.99 23:33:37 (MEZ) Mitteleurop”ische Zeit schreibt
ezra save-america.org:
) What is the State breakdown of College entrance statistics? For (a suitably
) narrow) comparison I would appreciate Abiter and Mittlere catagories.
) If you have the notion and the time...
) Thanks.
) e
Dear Ezra,
Unfortunately the document I was reading (not an inhouse one) had no
comparisons; I will keep my eyes open for pertinent figures.
Bruce
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1145 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1146 --------------
001 - BruceyJ aol.com - Re: Recommended Speech
002 - BruceyJ aol.com - Re: New to this server, but not the subject ...
003 - BruceyJ aol.com - Re: MAKE $$$ FROME HOME!!!
004 - BruceyJ aol.com - Re: MAKE $$$ FROME HOME!!!
005 - BruceyJ aol.com - Re: New to this server, but not the subject ...
006 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: MAKE $$$ FROME HOME!!!
007 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Recommended Speech
008 - Kevin Houston (Kevin urly - Questions for a Libertarian (Ezra)
009 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Questions for a Libertarian (Ezra)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1146.1 ---------------
From: BruceyJ aol.com
Subject: Re: Recommended Speech
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:18:02 EST
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In einer eMail vom 17.03.99 09:28:58 (MEZ) Mitteleurop”ische Zeit schreibt
mkopp xtra.co.nz:
) But SWA practices deception on anyone who doesn't
) do one hell of a lot of deep research to find the true nature of the cult.
)
A pretty typical KOPP statement. Does he (do you, Michael) mean
# an individual having something to do with anthroposophy, steiner or waldorf
# ALL individuals having something to do with anthroposophy, steiner or
waldorf
# a school somewhere
# a teacher somewhere
# all teachers in the USA and NZ
# all teachers
# your enemies
# me
# card-carrying anthroposophists?
# OR WHAT?
Bruce
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1146.2 ---------------
From: BruceyJ aol.com
Subject: Re: New to this server, but not the subject ...
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:17:51 EST
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In einer eMail vom 17.03.99 02:29:32 (MEZ) Mitteleurop”ische Zeit schreibt
mkopp xtra.co.nz:
) To address Bruces's and your claim that critics lie about SWA, it is only
) necessary to find in the archives the many instances when critics have
) noted positive things about their children's schooling, despite the fact
) that we have had to remove our children from SWA schools, in the end,
) because the balance between good and bad practices is tipped so far towards
) the mumbo jumbo end of the scale.
I never really meant to stir this one up - my original email, carefully, but
perhaps accidently, manipulated by Dan, suggested that wc was INADVERTEDLY
putting potential parents off waldorf. I know that some wcs have positive
thoughts too, but I believe that we all know that there is RARELY a positive
word HERE from a wc, and that was primarily what I meant.
PLANS is trying to keep waldorf out of state schools - right or wrong?
PLANS is not trying to rubbish the non-state waldorf schools - right or wrong?
Bruce
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1146.3 ---------------
From: BruceyJ aol.com
Subject: Re: MAKE $$$ FROME HOME!!!
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:18:00 EST
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Dear Michael,
What you have to do with the military is neither here nor there, at least to
me!
Would it not be more in keeping with what you yourself say in this post to
have replied direct to Ezra off-list?
Bruce
In einer eMail vom 17.03.99 06:00:09 (MEZ) Mitteleurop”ische Zeit schreibt
mkopp xtra.co.nz:
) Michael KOPP says:
)
) I think the use of such phrases as in your last sentence, especially in
) respect of someone who is known to the list to be a military veteran and
) Vietnam War observer (non-combatant), is a bit insensitive, to say the
) least, and an unmitigatedly nasty ad hominem at the most.
)
) You, Ezra, would never use such a phrase unless it had some point. The only
) point that can be, here, is to demean me and the military.
)
) Now while I am a pacifist, and anti-war, and a dissident from the modern
) (post-Bomb) use of the military for American foreign (read business)
) policy, I do still have some sense of the necessity for a military, and the
) honourable conduct of most of my fellow soldiers.
)
) There is no excuse for My Lai, and too many people got off lightly. There
) was no excuse for Vietnam, and too many people (like Henry the K) got off
) scott free on charges of fomenting the greatest mass murders of our times.
)
) So, to use such a term in a rebuttal to my criticism of your work is to
) characterise me with one of the worst of excesses of that war.
)
) I take that kinda personally, sonny boy, and I hope we don't ever meet,
) because I'd be tempted to spit in your face (pacifist spit, you
) understand). I'll forgive you this time because you're a poorly-educated,
) callow youth (as you regularly prove with your posts here).
)
) If you continue with such ad hominems directed at me, you'll start to get
) the same treatment. Ask Stephen Tonkin how far a flame war can go; he and I
) are the experts. Meantime, grow up and chill out. Play the ball, not the
) man.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1146.4 ---------------
From: BruceyJ aol.com
Subject: Re: MAKE $$$ FROME HOME!!!
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:17:52 EST
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In einer eMail vom 17.03.99 03:57:40 (MEZ) Mitteleurop”ische Zeit schreibt
mkopp xtra.co.nz:
) This sounds like another example of the anti-technology,
) poorly-educated-in-science Steiner teacher like the ones who taught my kids
) pseudo-science in the Steiner school we attended.
)
Thanks Michael, you make my point about crapping over waldorf, wherever,
really nicely! What do you have that's positive to say about waldorf?
Bruce
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1146.5 ---------------
From: BruceyJ aol.com
Subject: Re: New to this server, but not the subject ...
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:18:04 EST
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In einer eMail vom 17.03.99 11:17:54 (MEZ) Mitteleurop”ische Zeit schreibt
dan dandugan.com:
) With regard to the private Waldorf schools, I certainly want to turn away
) those parents who, like me and so many others here, would not be happy with
) what they found after the veil of deception was lifted.
Are you planning a dance of the seven waldorf veils, and the lifting thereof,
at your birthday party??
Bruce
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1146.6 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: MAKE $$$ FROME HOME!!!
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:13:35 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199903170031.QAA23721 lists1.best.com)
(199903170455.UAA08331 lists1.best.com) (199903170737.XAA11723 lists1.best.com)
I meant to clarify something in my last post but inadvertently sent off the
email before it was completed...
GF is shorthand for Girl Friend (and definitely not Guru Flak). She is a
British subject and not a photographer. She is Welsh, educated at Durham -- so
no RS connections whatsoever beyond contact with me. I welcome her perspective
whenever it is offered.
e
PS There are something like 12 ways to say yes or no in Welsh. No wonder they
are considered quarrelsome! (grin)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1146.7 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Recommended Speech
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:39:01 -0500
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References: (199903170817.AAA02839 lists1.best.com)
I did not recommend the speech to bolster one political agenda (on this list)
over another. (unless you happen to be a Libertarian).
Civil disobedience and politically correct culture can find places on both sides
of this here fence. (the list)
e
Michael Kopp wrote:
) Astute readers will also know that sauce for the goose is sauce for the
) gander.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1146.8 ---------------
From: Kevin Houston (Kevin urly-bird.com)
Subject: Questions for a Libertarian (Ezra)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:33:48 -0600
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References: (199903170817.AAA02839 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903171833.KAA22508 lists1.best.com)
Ezra,
First, thank you for the link, I was having trouble finding Mr. Heston's
speech -- at least his most recent one. (came up with a ton of old
speeches, all very informative)
Second, I gather from your general tone, and writings, that you are a
Libertarian. If that is so, then I have several questions for you.
Do you think that Waldorf Schools (WS) should be given public money? Isn't
that a direct contradiction of Libertarian philosophy? (dogma, doctrine,
whatever you want to call it.) This would seem to violate (to me anyhow)
the separation between church and state guaranteed by our constitution.
(understanding of course that not every country in the world has this
guarantee.)
Closely related to this, is the issue of Non Initiation Of Force/Fraud
(NIOF) a cornerstone of Libertarian philosophy. If, as Dan and Michael et.
al. have charged, a particular WS was found to have deliberately lied
(downplayed, made legally accurate, but misleading statements) about the
amount of AP within the curriculum, would that not be an example of fraud?
How, as a Libertarian, can you fail to denounce such a clear violation of
NIOF? Do you deny that the specific schools in Dan's, Michael's, Deby's...
case failed to disclose the amount of AP in the schools? Or is your
position that these are isolated cases, that are not reflective of WE in
general? (please note, I am not trying to start a fight, I am just trying
to get a sense of your position.)
I agree that it is quite a jump to go from one instance of fraud (or even a
hundred) to making blanket statements about every WS. But certainly even
one documented case of lying about what the curriculum does or does not
contain should be enough to give a WE supporter pause. And yet I've never
heard of or seen any condemnation of any WS by the Waldorf Community (WC),
If even half of what Michael says is true, then that school should rightly
be denounced by the WC. The disclosure statement sounds like a good idea,
but I'd rather see it provided because parents were exercising due diligence.
As a Libertarian myself, I certainly agree with your point that people who
want to send their children to a WS (or practice any other manner of what
mainstream society calls pseudoscience) should be allowed to do so, and
that the public schools carry with them, their own set of beliefs
masquerading as facts. But I cannot fault Dan Dugan and others for calling
attention to this, that is the purpose of freedom of speech.
Is your purpose on this list to spread the word of the fine education
offered by WS? Or is it to simply oppose those who you feel are tarring
all of WE with the same brush? Or something else that I have missed.
At 10:39 AM 3/17/99 -0500, Ezra wrote:
)I did not recommend the speech to bolster one political agenda (on this list)
)over another. (unless you happen to be a Libertarian).
)Civil disobedience and politically correct culture can find places on both
)sides
)of this here fence. (the list)
)e
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1146.9 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Questions for a Libertarian (Ezra)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:28:52 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199903170817.AAA02839 lists1.best.com) (199903172359.PAA06430 lists1.best.com)
Hello Kevin,
Just write to say that I find your post very well formulated and that I
think it raises a number of important questions. Is a little busy with
work right now, but hope I¥ll find the time to contribute to the
questions you raise.
Greetings,
Sune,
Stockholm
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1146 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1147 --------------
001 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Cherry Picking Richard Feynman
002 - Jeff Goldstein (Jeffg hou - RE: Cherry Picking Richard Feynman
003 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Joseph Chilton Pearce on "neuro-cardiology"
004 - Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis - Re: Cherry Picking Richard Feynman
005 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Cherry Picking Richard Feynman
006 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: Cherry Picking Richard Feynman
007 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Cherry Picking Richard Feynman
008 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Cherry Picking Richard Feynman
009 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Cherry Picking Richard Feynman
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1147.1 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Cherry Picking Richard Feynman
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:01:16 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I apologize for the funky spacing, but it is formatted text from another website. I would post the
link, but I think the website subject matter is at least as inflammatory as any found on this list.
Suffice it to say it (the posting and editing) is the work of a scientific pariah.
The first thing I thought of with regard to this list is color theory, and the conventions of
science in general. This quote also addresses issues of integrity, and highlights the omitting
effect of bias on the truth.
I see at least two separate issues for WCs here. The first is AS, which I personally do not care to
address. The second is alternatives to current popular opinion taught in WE schools. By this I do
not mean poorly informed teaching of incorrect facts and what not (a straw man), but rather the
alternatively informed teaching of say color theory (which I frankly do not remember from WE
anyway).
e
PS I will respond to Kevin as soon as I have some time.
Richard Feynman on science:
... I call these things cult science, because they follow all the apparent precepts and forms of
scientific
investigation. ... But there is one feature I notice that is generally missing in cult science.
... Itís a kind of
scientific integrity, a principle of scientific thought that corresponds to a kind of utter
honesty ñ a kind of
leaning over backwards. For example, if youíre doing an experiment, you should report everything
that
you think might make it invalid ñ not only what you think is right about it. ... If you make a
theory, for
example, and advertise it, or put it out, then you must also put down all the facts that
disagree with it, as
well as those that agree with it. ...the idea is to try to give all of the information to help
others to judge the
value of your contribution; not just the information that leads to judgment in one particular
direction or
another.
The easiest way to explain this idea is to contrast it, for example, with advertising. Last
night I heard that
Wesson oil doesnít soak through food. Well, thatís true. Itís not dishonest; but the thing Iím
talking about
is not just a matter of not being dishonest, itís a matter of scientific integrity, which is
another level. The
fact that should be added to that advertising statement is that no oil soaks through food, if
operated at a
certain temperature. If operated at another temperature, they all will ñ including Wesson oil...
Weíve learned from experience that the truth will come out. Other experimenters will repeat your
experiment and find out whether you were wrong or right. Natureís phenomena will agree or
theyíll
disagree with your theory. And, although you may gain some temporary fame and excitement, you
will
not gain a good reputation as a scientist if you havenít tried to be very careful in this kind
of work. And
itís this type of integrity, this kind of care not to fool yourself, that is missing to a large
extent in much of
the research in cult science. ...
But this long history of learning how not to fool ourselves ñ of having utter scientific
integrity ñ is, Iím
sorry to say, something that we havenít specifically included in any particular course that I
know of. We
just hope youíve caught on by osmosis. ... And this is our responsibility as scientists,
certainly to other
scientists, and I think to laymen.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1147.2 ---------------
From: Jeff Goldstein (Jeffg houser.com)
Subject: RE: Cherry Picking Richard Feynman
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:46:55 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
I'm new to the list. I have a research background, wrote/studied a lot
about what is generally called "The Scientific Method." (ie, Empirical
study, controlled environment, etc)
Please tell me more about Richard Feynman (who is he)?
jeff
----------
From: Ezra Beeman[SMTP:ezra save-america.org]
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 1999 3:01 PM
To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
Subject: Cherry Picking Richard Feynman
I apologize for the funky spacing, but it is formatted text from
another website. I would post the
link, but I think the website subject matter is at least as
inflammatory as any found on this list.
Suffice it to say it (the posting and editing) is the work of a
scientific pariah.
The first thing I thought of with regard to this list is color
theory, and the conventions of
science in general. This quote also addresses issues of integrity,
and highlights the omitting
effect of bias on the truth.
I see at least two separate issues for WCs here. The first is AS,
which I personally do not care to
address. The second is alternatives to current popular opinion
taught in WE schools. By this I do
not mean poorly informed teaching of incorrect facts and what not (a
straw man), but rather the
alternatively informed teaching of say color theory (which I frankly
do not remember from WE
anyway).
e
PS I will respond to Kevin as soon as I have some time.
Richard Feynman on science:
... I call these things cult science, because they follow all
the apparent precepts and forms of
scientific
investigation. ... But there is one feature I notice that is
generally missing in cult science.
... It's a kind of
scientific integrity, a principle of scientific thought that
corresponds to a kind of utter
honesty - a kind of
leaning over backwards. For example, if you're doing an
experiment, you should report everything
that
you think might make it invalid - not only what you think is
right about it. ... If you make a
theory, for
example, and advertise it, or put it out, then you must also put
down all the facts that
disagree with it, as
well as those that agree with it. ...the idea is to try to give
all of the information to help
others to judge the
value of your contribution; not just the information that leads
to judgment in one particular
direction or
another.
The easiest way to explain this idea is to contrast it, for
example, with advertising. Last
night I heard that
Wesson oil doesn't soak through food. Well, that's true. It's
not dishonest; but the thing I'm
talking about
is not just a matter of not being dishonest, it's a matter of
scientific integrity, which is
another level. The
fact that should be added to that advertising statement is that
no oil soaks through food, if
operated at a
certain temperature. If operated at another temperature, they
all will - including Wesson oil...
We've learned from experience that the truth will come out.
Other experimenters will repeat your
experiment and find out whether you were wrong or right.
Nature's phenomena will agree or
they'll
disagree with your theory. And, although you may gain some
temporary fame and excitement, you
will
not gain a good reputation as a scientist if you haven't tried
to be very careful in this kind
of work. And
it's this type of integrity, this kind of care not to fool
yourself, that is missing to a large
extent in much of
the research in cult science. ...
But this long history of learning how not to fool ourselves - of
having utter scientific
integrity - is, I'm
sorry to say, something that we haven't specifically included in
any particular course that I
know of. We
just hope you've caught on by osmosis. ... And this is our
responsibility as scientists,
certainly to other
scientists, and I think to laymen.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1147.3 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Joseph Chilton Pearce on "neuro-cardiology"
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:43:30 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Here's the latest buzzword in educational pseudoscience:
"neuro-cardiology." Joseph Chilton Pierce is the darling of airhead
alternative education, and often speaks at Waldorf schools. I'm sure we'll
be hearing more about "the heart-mind connection."
-Dan Dugan
***
http://homeschooling.miningco.com/library/weekly/aa101497.htm
Fri, Mar 19, 1999
Ann A. Zeise - your Mining Co. Guide to: Homeschooling
HeartMath and the Magical Child
Dateline: 10/14/97
By Ann Zeise
In August, at the Home=Education Conference in Sacramento, California, I
had the pleasure of listening to Joseph Chilton Pearce, author of "The
Magical Child," speak on the topic: The Heart / Brain Factor:
Revolutionizing Education.
Dr. Pearce got my attention right away when he suggested that public
education had become such a hostile learning situation, someone should burn
down the whole institution using piles of ditto sheets as fuel! Then we
should restructure education with what we're learned recently in the field
of neuro-science about the heart / mind connection.
There has been a disturbing breakdown of the natural instinct to nurture
the young in this world. Thomas Hartman, founder of Prophets' Way, which
provides homes for homeless children, points out that:
In eastern Brazil, 9,000,000 children between the ages of four and eleven
are living underground.
In Thailand the schools are in total disrepair.
Even in "civilized" Austria there are 400,000 abandonned children.
The United States is one of the biggest exporter of children for adoption
by foreign nationals.
Another disturbing trend is premature sexuality. For generations, genital
sexuality was not expressed in those younger than 14-15 years old. Now
sexual activity is common in 11-12 year olds. Eight year old girls
experience the onset of menarche and some are pregnant at age nine. Twenty
percent of second grade girls have noticable breast development! All this
indicates a genetic breakdown, Pearce says. Rudolf Steiner's studies point
to a correlation between the lowering of the age of puberty to pushing
academics too early.
Research in neuro-cardiology has pointed out that the heart is the major
governor of intelligence. It is the heart that has the ability to respond
in a way that is "most intelligent" for the well-being of the body. The
brain has a way of "intellectualizing" and getting us in trouble, you may
have noticed.
How does the heart think? It actually has brain cells! Shortly after
conception, it is supposed that the mother's heart sends a "spark" to
certain cells of the developing fetus, and they, in turn, start a rhythmic
beating, too. Eventually, these cells become the heart muscle. The pulsing
creates an electrical field, much like a miniature version of the polar
field surrounding the earth, with north and south poles. The other cells,
which until given this
"orientation" could have become any part of the body, now "know" that they
are to differentiate according to their distance and direction from the
pulsing heart. Thus toes become toes, and ears become ears, and so on.
Out of this young heart, the neural tube forms, and the brain forms at one
end, it's growth being determined by the strength of the heart cells. In
the first trimester, the "reptilian" part of the brain forms. It will
control the sensory-motor skills, and have the instincts for basic
survival. In the second trimester, the "old mammalian" part of the brain
forms. Here resides the emotional, cognitive and relational of our brain.
Last to develop is the neo-cortex, where the capacities for creativity and
intellect reside.
Once the child is born, these three brain segments unfold in the same
order. Each part can be nurtured to its fullest, but cannot be hurried or
rushed without doing damage. Piaget noticed that this unfolding of the
intellect roughly follows the teeth. Until the emergence of the first
teeth, your child is in the "reptilian" stage. This isn't as bad as it
sounds. With nurturing, this brain part will hold the higher, kinder,
virtues that ensure the survival of our species.
Between the time the baby teeth arrive and then are lost, to be replaced by
adult teeth around age eight, a child is in this emotional / cognitive
stage. while they may learn the fundamentals of reading during this stage,
they really aren't capable of the interpretation they will be later on.
About age 8-9 the prefontal lobes undergo a growth spurt that will not be
completed until age 21. True intellectual growth occurs at this time,
interestingly enough, whether or not the child is in school! Schools,
however, love to take credit for the things learned during this phase.
Quite late in this phase, from ages 11-15, the child develops the capacity
to operate on what they have learned. This means, don't worry if your child
isn't a marvelous reader, writer, or mathematician until this age range.
What is the point, you are asking, of all this scientific information you
are giving us? and what does it have to do with homeschooling? It has been
observed that in nurturing families, children with larger than normal
frontal lobes are being born. It is as if these children with the capacity
of greater intelligence are being deliberately given to families that will
nurture them more and for a longer time. Hopefully, these children will
counter-balance the disturbing trends mentioned earlier. Call it God's will
or natural selection, it is most interesting. Ask your homeschooling
friends if they had problems finding t-shirts with necks large enough to go
over their infant's head. Did they have to buy t-shirts far larger than
needed for their child's body in order to get shirts over the infant's head?
Pearce concluded his talk with a discussion about emotional intelligence,
or "EQ" as it is being nicknamed. EQ is both a critical factor in learning
as well as strengthening the immune system. It is fostered through
nurturing care, love, and acceptance. Give a child time to learn from his
heart about the world around him. Give her time for imaginitive play and
exploration. Premature book-learning, imposed "adult" facts, only teach a
child to ignore the intelligence of the heart. And the heart is the source
of all true intelligence.
Joseph Chilton Pearce is the author of The Magical Child, available here in
my Homeschooling Amazon bookstore, The Magical Child Returns, The Bond of
Power, The Crack in the Cosmic Egg, and Evolution's End. He lectures
worldwide on human intelligence, creativity, and learning. He is also
involved with the Institute of HeartMath in Boulder Creek, California.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1147.4 ---------------
From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Cherry Picking Richard Feynman
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 19:33:25 +0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: (199903190648.WAA19210 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903190648.WAA19210 lists1.best.com)
Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org) wrote:
)I apologize for the funky spacing, but it is formatted text from another
)website.
[...]
Ezra, I doubt I am the only one who will just not be bothered to read it
if you cannot have the courtesy to format it properly. That, combined
with the over-long line length which you appear to favour, make your
messages difficult to read and I generally cannot be bothered with the
hassle it entails.
Noctis Gaudia Carpe,
Stephen
--
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+ Stephen Tonkin | ATM Resources; Astro-Tutorials; Astronomy Books +
+ (N50.9105 W1.829) | (http://www.aegis1.demon.co.uk) +
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1147.5 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Cherry Picking Richard Feynman
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 00:47:12 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
References: (199903191841.KAA01742 lists1.best.com)
Jeff Goldstein wrote:
) I'm new to the list. I have a research background, wrote/studied a lot
) about what is generally called "The Scientific Method." (ie, Empirical
) study, controlled environment, etc)
)
) Please tell me more about Richard Feynman (who is he)?
Don¥t remember having heard of him before either.
A search with http://www.evreka.com gave at least 4418 hits for "Richard
Feynman".
It seems he lived between 1918 and 1988 and was a 1965 Nobel Laureate in
Physics for fundamental work in quantum electrodynamics, with
deep-ploughing consequences for the physics of elementary particles.
Some of the first link pages I found were
http://richard.feynman.connections.tm/feynman.html, leading to a number
of sites on Feynman and his work,
http://nano.xerox.com/nanotech/feynmanWeb.html and
http://lib-www.lanl.gov/infores/history/feynman.htm.
Regards,
(mr) Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1147.6 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Cherry Picking Richard Feynman
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 18:57:01 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In-Reply-To: (199903192351.PAA25869 lists1.best.com)
On 20 Mar 99,, Sune Nordwall wrote:
) Jeff Goldstein wrote:
) ) Please tell me more about Richard Feynman (who is he)?
)
) Don¥t remember having heard of him before either.
Last summer I read "Six Easy Pieces," which is a compilation of
six of Feynman's introductory physics lectures. Each one is an
introductory lecture on a different topic. I highly recommend it as
an overview of physics for non-science majors.
In one chapter, Feynman discusses the relation of physics to other
branches of science, and shows how all science has, at its basis,
physics.
Steve Premo
Santa Cruz, California
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1147.7 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Cherry Picking Richard Feynman
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 19:27:56 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199903190648.WAA19210 lists1.best.com) (199903192002.MAA05868 lists1.best.com)
Frankly, if you aren't going to read it, so be it. Please do not bother
informing me again.
Of course I think what I post is pertinent and worth reading. If the editing
bothers you that much (and I really will do better on those posts only needing
left hand adjustments), you are equally able to edit the text for readability.
I've set this host's preferences to 80 characters (and I will change my other
primary workstation as well), which is the point at which it will hard code a
return into contiguous ascii text. But settings alone will not rectify heavily
formatted text into smooth text. I use many computers under various conditions
and am not always blessed with the best of circumstances for convenient editing.
I understand there are those this (minimal editing) will alienate, but I
generally do not live my life by such considerations.
e
Stephen Tonkin wrote:
) Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org) wrote:
) )I apologize for the funky spacing, but it is formatted text from another
) )website.
) [...]
)
) Ezra, I doubt I am the only one who will just not be bothered to read it
) if you cannot have the courtesy to format it properly. That, combined
) with the over-long line length which you appear to favour, make your
) messages difficult to read and I generally cannot be bothered with the
) hassle it entails.
)
) Noctis Gaudia Carpe,
) Stephen
)
) --
) + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
) + Stephen Tonkin | ATM Resources; Astro-Tutorials; Astronomy Books +
) + (N50.9105 W1.829) | (http://www.aegis1.demon.co.uk) +
) + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1147.8 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Cherry Picking Richard Feynman
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 19:43:40 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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References: (199903191841.KAA01742 lists1.best.com) (199903192351.PAA25869 lists1.best.com)
Richard Feynam was a remarkable individual who happened to be a brilliant
physicist and celebrated author. Some are autobiographical and written for the
masses, most are hard core theoretical physics. But even the hard core texts
are extremely readable. He believed if someone couldn't explain something, than
they did not properly understand it themselves.
He taught physics at Cal Tech for a long time, and his contribution to physics
hovers somewhere between Dirac and Einstein (IMHO). He discovered his own
version of quantum reality, using particles traveling backwards in time
(tachyons), based on the mathematical implications of the quantum theory.
More importantly (to me) he is a man of utmost integrity and some vanity. He
stands in my mind as one of the finest examples of a scientist, always
challenging assumptions. Again and again, his life demonstrated an
unwillingness to accept the status quo.
For a better explanation of RF, read: "Surely you're joking, Mr. Feynman!" or
"What do YOU care what other people think?"
e
Sune Nordwall wrote:
) Jeff Goldstein wrote:
)
) ) I'm new to the list. I have a research background, wrote/studied a lot
) ) about what is generally called "The Scientific Method." (ie, Empirical
) ) study, controlled environment, etc)
) )
) ) Please tell me more about Richard Feynman (who is he)?
)
) Don¥t remember having heard of him before either.
)
) A search with http://www.evreka.com gave at least 4418 hits for "Richard
) Feynman".
)
) It seems he lived between 1918 and 1988 and was a 1965 Nobel Laureate in
) Physics for fundamental work in quantum electrodynamics, with
) deep-ploughing consequences for the physics of elementary particles.
)
) Some of the first link pages I found were
) http://richard.feynman.connections.tm/feynman.html, leading to a number
) of sites on Feynman and his work,
) http://nano.xerox.com/nanotech/feynmanWeb.html and
) http://lib-www.lanl.gov/infores/history/feynman.htm.
)
) Regards,
)
) (mr) Sune Nordwall
) Stockholm, Sweden
)
) http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
) - a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
) EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1147.9 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Cherry Picking Richard Feynman
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 21:03:17 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199903200317.TAA20172 lists1.best.com)
Reminds me of the joke:
Biologists answer to Chemists.
Chemists answer to Physicists.
Physicists answer to Mathematicians.
And Mathematicians answer only to GOD.
e
Steve Premo wrote:
) In one chapter, Feynman discusses the relation of physics to other
) branches of science, and shows how all science has, at its basis,
) physics.
)
)
) Steve Premo
) Santa Cruz, California
) http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1147 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1148 --------------
001 - "Alan S. Fine MD" (asf pe - Re: Cherry Picking Richard Feynman
002 - "Alan S. Fine MD" (asf pe - Re: Questions for a Libertarian (Ezra)
003 - Robert Flannery (litvas i - Experimental School is in Jeopardy
004 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Experimental School is in Jeopardy
005 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Responses from a Libertine (g)
006 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Time weighs in...
007 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - spacing
008 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - Re: Cherry Picking Richard Feynman
009 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - Re: Recommended Speech
010 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - Re: Questions for a Libertarian (Ezra)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1148.1 ---------------
From: "Alan S. Fine MD" (asf peakpeak.com)
Subject: Re: Cherry Picking Richard Feynman
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 21:58:15 -0700
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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In addition benefiting from his clear texts, I had the priviledge of
attending several of his excellent lectures on quantum mechanics. He was a
man of brilliance and good humor. In addition to books posted elsewhere,
I recommend Ralph Leighton's "Tuva or Bust, Richard Feynman's Last Journey",
which gives a nice picture of the man in his later years.
Alan S. Fine MD
)Please tell me more about Richard Feynman (who is he)?
)
)jeff
)
) ----------
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1148.2 ---------------
From: "Alan S. Fine MD" (asf peakpeak.com)
Subject: Re: Questions for a Libertarian (Ezra)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 22:26:32 -0700
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Dear Kevin,
Your concern about NIOF is an important one. To me the root of the
problem is that many anthroposophists see anthroposophy not as a seperate
spiritual entity of some sort, but as a part of reality. In fact (and
correct me if I am wrong) the dissolution of the barriers between the
spiritual and material worlds is one of the major facets of anthroposophy.
Because to them it is all one reality, anthroposophists have little context
from which to distinguish when they are teaching AP and how much. Lack of
disclosure is not so much an act of deliberate deception as much as a
product of the mind set of the anthroposophists themselves.
Alan S. Fine MD
)Closely related to this, is the issue of Non Initiation Of Force/Fraud
)(NIOF) a cornerstone of Libertarian philosophy. If, as Dan and Michael et.
)al. have charged, a particular WS was found to have deliberately lied
)(downplayed, made legally accurate, but misleading statements) about the
)amount of AP within the curriculum, would that not be an example of fraud?
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1148.3 ---------------
From: Robert Flannery (litvas icu.com)
Subject: Experimental School is in Jeopardy
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 12:52:13 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199903201600.IAA04450 lists1.best.com)
For anyone with access to today's (Saturday, 20 March) copy of the New York
Times, there is an interesting article on page B4 of the Metro Section (if
you've only access to an out-of-town edition, try the website at
www.nytimes.com).
The article, whose header I've used in my subject line, refers to the
pending closure of the Westside Community School in upper Manhattan. The
WCS is a public school which incorporates the teaching methods of Rudolf
Steiner.
Seems the test scores for reading in the 3rd and 4th grades are below
citywide averages, and the local superintendent plans to shut the school in
the next year or two.
Reference is made to public waldorf initiatives in Milwaukee and Sacramento.
Robert Flannery
New York
litvas icu.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1148.4 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Experimental School is in Jeopardy
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 15:28:12 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199903201746.JAA15762 lists1.best.com)
Do they (the NY charter) follow the normal WE timeline for reading?
I infer the super's reason for closing down the school is the below average
(median?) performance. Were they scraping the bottom or slightly below average?
Is there any more information available? I do not have access to the Times
site.
It strikes me as odd people are implementing WE piecemeal into public schools.
It seems inconsistent with the holistic paradigm in general and the approach of
WE in particular.
e
Robert Flannery wrote:
) Seems the test scores for reading in the 3rd and 4th grades are below
) citywide averages, and the local superintendent plans to shut the school in
) the next year or two.
)
) Reference is made to public waldorf initiatives in Milwaukee and Sacramento.
)
) Robert Flannery
) New York
) litvas icu.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1148.5 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Responses from a Libertine (g)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 15:51:05 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199903170817.AAA02839 lists1.best.com) (199903172359.PAA06430 lists1.best.com)
I am not a true blue libertarian, nor am I an (Ayn Rand) objectivist. I say this
because I differ in my view of competition than most avowed members of either one
of these groups. Still, I do think Libertarians are by far the most appealing
political philosophy.
And now in answer to your questions:
I really think the church/state argument is a red herring for Libertarians so far
as the state should not be in the business of education in the first place. I
think Boaz (VP Cato institute - The most prestigious Libertarian think tank) does
a beautiful job of outlining the the case for private education in his book,
"Libertarianism": The business of government is government. Full stop.
Another assumption (the first being state run education) in your question is the
religious nature of WE, which I personally did not experience. Not once before
subscribing to this list did I ever conceive of WE as religion based, or even in
religious terms. In fact, I think one might derive quite a compelling ad hoc
explanation of WE methods based on Humanistic ideals. To me it seems to make
little difference if you are trying to incarnate properly, or be self actualized,
or simply realizing your full potential (same thing, different jargon).
I look at it (WE) more like educational technology (I like Premo's example of
Martial Arts). Should you limit yourself to boxing since Kung Fu is based on
religious doctrine? I do not think you need Marines to be buddhist to be
effective, nor does their training somehow make them buddhist. (I am assuming
Marines learn Kung Fu for the sake of illustration.)
Your second question requires a huge if, in my opinion. My experience with both
these characters lends little to support their claims of duplicity and fraud. In
fact, direct experience with Kopp's penchant for inflammatory rhetoric does
nothing but weaken his original allegations of persecution. At the very least he
is crying wolf, ex post. D&K might simply be scapegoating institutions they do
not agree with and did not properly vet. Remember Libertarianism's other sacred
cow: caveat emptor.
However, IF Kopp and Dugan speak the gospel truth, then of course such actions
should be redressed. Does it give them license to attack the whole of RS's
universe? Nope. Does my personal experience resonate with their claims? Nope.
As to what others SHOULD do, this is not my business really. There are plenty of
alternative hypotheses as to why the AS does not speak to Kopp and Dugan's
claims. Who is arbiter of the default hypothesis here anyway? Let the courts
decide if no agreements can be reached (and it is a case of fraud.)
I really have no opinion on the disclosure statement as I think WE cannot hide the
truth, and the assumption of conspiracy is ridiculous. If parents demand the
statements, they will be forthcoming.
Dan and Kopp are welcome to call all the attention they want, and not once have I
called for either one of them to be censored. Tit for tat is low as I go (and I
might add a scientifically proven disciplinary strategy. -- See game theoretical
texts). But my reason's for being on this list are fundamentally the same as both
these characters, a desire for fairness and truth. I think they are bitter and
mistaken in their crusade, but if nothing else they are forthright in their
educational concerns. I will have kids someday, and I want the best education for
them too.
e
Kevin Houston wrote:
) Ezra,
)
) First, thank you for the link, I was having trouble finding Mr. Heston's
) speech -- at least his most recent one. (came up with a ton of old
) speeches, all very informative)
)
) Second, I gather from your general tone, and writings, that you are a
) Libertarian. If that is so, then I have several questions for you.
)
) Do you think that Waldorf Schools (WS) should be given public money? Isn't
) that a direct contradiction of Libertarian philosophy? (dogma, doctrine,
) whatever you want to call it.) This would seem to violate (to me anyhow)
) the separation between church and state guaranteed by our constitution.
) (understanding of course that not every country in the world has this
) guarantee.)
)
) Closely related to this, is the issue of Non Initiation Of Force/Fraud
) (NIOF) a cornerstone of Libertarian philosophy. If, as Dan and Michael et.
) al. have charged, a particular WS was found to have deliberately lied
) (downplayed, made legally accurate, but misleading statements) about the
) amount of AP within the curriculum, would that not be an example of fraud?
) How, as a Libertarian, can you fail to denounce such a clear violation of
) NIOF? Do you deny that the specific schools in Dan's, Michael's, Deby's...
) case failed to disclose the amount of AP in the schools? Or is your
) position that these are isolated cases, that are not reflective of WE in
) general? (please note, I am not trying to start a fight, I am just trying
) to get a sense of your position.)
)
) I agree that it is quite a jump to go from one instance of fraud (or even a
) hundred) to making blanket statements about every WS. But certainly even
) one documented case of lying about what the curriculum does or does not
) contain should be enough to give a WE supporter pause. And yet I've never
) heard of or seen any condemnation of any WS by the Waldorf Community (WC),
) If even half of what Michael says is true, then that school should rightly
) be denounced by the WC. The disclosure statement sounds like a good idea,
) but I'd rather see it provided because parents were exercising due diligence.
)
) As a Libertarian myself, I certainly agree with your point that people who
) want to send their children to a WS (or practice any other manner of what
) mainstream society calls pseudoscience) should be allowed to do so, and
) that the public schools carry with them, their own set of beliefs
) masquerading as facts. But I cannot fault Dan Dugan and others for calling
) attention to this, that is the purpose of freedom of speech.
)
) Is your purpose on this list to spread the word of the fine education
) offered by WS? Or is it to simply oppose those who you feel are tarring
) all of WE with the same brush? Or something else that I have missed.
)
) At 10:39 AM 3/17/99 -0500, Ezra wrote:
) )I did not recommend the speech to bolster one political agenda (on this list)
) )over another. (unless you happen to be a Libertarian).
) )Civil disobedience and politically correct culture can find places on both
) )sides
) )of this here fence. (the list)
) )e
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1148.6 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Time weighs in...
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 15:58:02 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Time Picks Century's 'Great Minds'
By CHELSEA J. CARTER Associated Press Writer
NEW YORK (AP) -- The Wright brothers, whose flying machine made the world a
smaller
place, and Albert Einstein, whose theory of relativity expanded our view of the
universe, are
among Time magazine's picks as the 20th century's greatest minds.
Time singled out 24 men and women responsible for scientific breakthroughs,
inventions and
innovations that led to such things as the atomic bomb, the airplane, television
and the World
Wide Web.
Einstein was the greatest theorist, said the magazine which hits newsstands
Monday.
Einstein ``discovered, just by thinking about it, the essential nature of the
universe,'' it said.
Among others on the list, the Wright brothers combined Leonardo da Vinci's
vision of a flying
machine with modern science to take man into the air with powered flight, Time
said.
It's the fourth in a series of six issues profiling the 100 most influential
people of the century.
``Often it was hard to pick one person to credit for a particular advance,''
wrote Walter Isaacson,
Time's managing editor.
Some cases, for example, involved rivalries such as the competition between
Philo Farnsworth
and Vladimir Zworykin to invent the television. The magazine picked Farnsworth.
And out of the
battle between Jonas Salk and Albert Sabin to invent the polio vaccine, the
magazine chose Salk.
Time's great minds list also includes chemist Leo Baekeland, who helped found
the modern
plastics industry by developing Bakelite; Tim Berners-Lee, the pioneer of the
World Wide Web
on the Internet; environmental activist Rachel Carson; atomic physicist Enrico
Fermi;
bacteriologist Alexander Fleming; psychoanalyst Sigmund Freud, and rocket
scientist Robert
Goddard.
Also chosen were mathematician Kurt Godel; Edwin Hubble, who discovered the
first hints that
the universe began with the Big Bang; economist John Maynard Keynes;
anthropologists Louis
and Mary Leakey and their anthropologist son Richard; child psychologist Jean
Piaget; transistor
developer William Shockley; computer scientist Alan Turing; James Watson and
Francis Crick,
who discovered the structure of DNA; and philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein.
Because so few women have been named to Time's lists -- two in this latest group
-- a Radcliffe
College professor formed a group to choose the most influential women.
``It came about because we were all complaining about the Time magazine list,''
said Rite
Nakashima Brock, director of the Bunting Institute at Radcliffe.
The selections were made by Time editors in consultation with CBS News, public
figures,
academics, journalists, political analysts and others.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1148.7 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: spacing
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 16:11:57 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
All right, this is ridiculous. After some thought, I believe this problem is a
direct result of viewing the web through a large monitor and I will tell you
why.
When you cut and past from the browser under Wintel, the 'smart' clipboard
gauges the spacing on the screen and inserts these into the text. This
extremely problematic when trying to post 80 character text, as my client
(Netscape) does not wrap my screen, but does wrap the outgoing message (if I set
the prefs). So I COULD backspace out all formatting (leaving a single line,
which my screen wraps to fit and the mail client wraps to 80 when I send) but
this entails a minimum of 2 edits per line (white space on left, cr/lf on right)
and I am probably not willing to do that. I think the newest version of
Netscape allows wrapping of the screen (I am using 4.0 -- the last stable
version) but is not worth the grief of serious memory stack leakage. In my
opinion the best alternative is to leave my client without preferences for
adding cr/lf's and people should view the text in a client that wraps. But we
have been over this before...
Anyone have any other (polite) suggestions?
e
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1148.8 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: Re: Cherry Picking Richard Feynman
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:05:04 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199903190648.WAA19210 lists1.best.com)
(199903192002.MAA05868 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903200327.TAA29321 lists1.best.com)
Ezra Beeman wrote, about his sloppy and inconsiderate Netiquette:
[snip]
)... you are equally able to edit the text for readability.
[snip the technical excuses that don't hold water for a computer
professional who cold easily find and use the simple utility that makes
quoting from Web pages easy]
)I understand there are those this (minimal editing) will alienate, but I
)generally do not live my life by such considerations.
)e
)
)Stephen Tonkin wrote:
)
)) Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org) wrote:
)) )I apologize for the funky spacing, but it is formatted text from another
)) )website.
)) [...]
))
)) Ezra, I doubt I am the only one who will just not be bothered to read it
)) if you cannot have the courtesy to format it properly. That, combined
)) with the over-long line length which you appear to favour, make your
)) messages difficult to read and I generally cannot be bothered with the
)) hassle it entails.
Well, we _have_ noticed that little quirk about your personality, Ezra --
not living your life by many considerations for others and their ideas, or
their comfort in regard to your views.
FWIW, it's a trait I see in many of the local Steiner school graduates, and
it mirrors the traits of the Steiner school teachers and authorities I have
had to deal with in our former school: "take it or leave it, we couldn't
care less about what you think".
Who the hell do you think you are to suggest that the *reader* should do
the work of tidying up your sloppiness?
Talk about Waldorf students' arrogance! Sheesh.
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1148.9 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: Re: Recommended Speech
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:51:58 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In-Reply-To: (199903171421.GAA02088 lists1.best.com)
)In einer eMail vom 17.03.99 09:28:58 (MEZ) Mitteleurop”ische Zeit schreibt
)mkopp xtra.co.nz:
)
)) But SWA practices deception on anyone who doesn't
)) do one hell of a lot of deep research to find the true nature of the
))cult.
))
)
)A pretty typical KOPP statement. Does he (do you, Michael) mean
)
)# an individual having something to do with anthroposophy, steiner or
)waldorf
)
)# ALL individuals having something to do with anthroposophy, steiner or
)waldorf
)
)# a school somewhere
)
)# a teacher somewhere
)
)# all teachers in the USA and NZ
)
)# all teachers
)
)# your enemies
)
)# me
)
)# card-carrying anthroposophists?
)
)# OR WHAT?
)
)Bruce
Sorry for the delay in answering this one ...
Take your pick, mix and match, or you can have the whole bundle at a
discount price!
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1148.10 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: Re: Questions for a Libertarian (Ezra)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:20:38 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199903201628.IAA14746 lists1.best.com)
Alan Fine wrote:
)Dear Kevin,
)
) Your concern about NIOF is an important one. To me the root of the
)problem is that many anthroposophists see anthroposophy not as a seperate
)spiritual entity of some sort, but as a part of reality. In fact (and
)correct me if I am wrong) the dissolution of the barriers between the
)spiritual and material worlds is one of the major facets of anthroposophy.
)Because to them it is all one reality, anthroposophists have little context
)from which to distinguish when they are teaching AP and how much. Lack of
)disclosure is not so much an act of deliberate deception as much as a
)product of the mind set of the anthroposophists themselves.
)
)Alan S. Fine MD
)
))Closely related to this, is the issue of Non Initiation Of Force/Fraud
))(NIOF) a cornerstone of Libertarian philosophy. If, as Dan and Michael
))et.
))al. have charged, a particular WS was found to have deliberately lied
))(downplayed, made legally accurate, but misleading statements) about the
))amount of AP within the curriculum, would that not be an example of fraud?
))
Ezra,
We're waiting with bated breath for your reply.
Please stop wasting your time with potshots about Feynman, etc., and get
down to brass tacks.
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1148 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1149 --------------
001 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - Re: Cherry Picking Richard Feynman
002 - Robert Flannery (litvas i - Re: Experimental School is in Jeopardy
003 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - Re: Responses from a Libertine (g)
004 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - Re: Time weighs in...
005 - Tarjei Straume (tastraum - Re: spacing
006 - Tarjei Straume (tastraum - Re: Cherry Picking Richard Feynman
007 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Time weighs in...
008 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Responses from a Libertine (g)
009 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Cherry Picking Richard Feynman
010 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - Re: spacing
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1149.1 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: Re: Cherry Picking Richard Feynman
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:17:25 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199903191841.KAA01742 lists1.best.com)
(199903192351.PAA25869 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903200429.UAA14937 lists1.best.com)
Ezra Beeman wrote:
)Richard Feynam was a remarkable individual who happened to be a brilliant
)physicist and celebrated author. Some are autobiographical and written for
)the
)masses, most are hard core theoretical physics. But even the hard core
)texts
)are extremely readable. He believed if someone couldn't explain
)something, than
)they did not properly understand it themselves.
)He taught physics at Cal Tech for a long time, and his contribution to
)physics
)hovers somewhere between Dirac and Einstein (IMHO). He discovered his own
)version of quantum reality, using particles traveling backwards in time
)(tachyons), based on the mathematical implications of the quantum theory.
)More importantly (to me) he is a man of utmost integrity and some vanity.
)He
)stands in my mind as one of the finest examples of a scientist, always
)challenging assumptions. Again and again, his life demonstrated an
)unwillingness to accept the status quo.
)For a better explanation of RF, read: "Surely you're joking, Mr. Feynman!"
)or
)"What do YOU care what other people think?"
)e
Having read these books, and having read others' accounts of Feynman's
life, I would say you could try to emulate him in other than the vanity
department and the "what do you care what other people think" department,
Ezra.
You could, for instance, take that part about explaining things so others
can undeerstand them. Many of your posts use impenatrable logic and abysmal
language skills, and take a great deal of puzzling over to understand. I am
not the only one who has remarked on this quality, or lack of it, Ezra.
Feynman also never looked down on anyone when it came to explaining his
greater knowledge or different view. He may have been vain, but he also
could talk with the janitor and get something from the janitor in exchange
for enlightening the janitor. Feynman had a deep, humanistic humility.
You probably have some useful and interesting things to say, Ezra, but your
haughty attitude is even worse than my bitterness over the damage a Steiner
school did to my children. Where your haughtiness impedes your message, I
think my bitterness does not prevent me from making clear, concise and
direct statements that people can understand. Maybe that's because I'm sort
of in the same business as Feynman -- explaining the world to other people.
Think about it, Ezra. Think about _others_, Ezra -- like Feynman did.
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1149.2 ---------------
From: Robert Flannery (litvas icu.com)
Subject: Re: Experimental School is in Jeopardy
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 19:51:26 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199903201746.JAA15762 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903202322.PAA24105 lists1.best.com)
)Do they (the NY charter) follow the normal WE timeline for reading?
)I infer the super's reason for closing down the school is the below average
)(median?) performance. Were they scraping the bottom or slightly below
)average?
"Mr. LaRock [Board of Ed spokesman] cited West Side Community's mediocre
performance on the citywide third- and fourth-grade reading tests last
spring as one of the school's primary failures. Just 33 percent of the
students read at or above grade level; the citywide average is 51 percent."
Robert Flannery
New York
litvas icu.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1149.3 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: Re: Responses from a Libertine (g)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 12:39:31 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199903170817.AAA02839 lists1.best.com)
(199903172359.PAA06430 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903202346.PAA05820 lists1.best.com)
Ezra Beeman finally answered Kevin Houston's questions about
Libertarianism, and his post crossed mine chiding him for wasting his time
on distractions instead of this topic -- so my post is not necessary.
But I must say, without responding to Ezra's entire post, that I fail to
see the humour of his title -- even with the (g) it doesn't make any sense.
)I am not a true blue libertarian, nor am I an (Ayn Rand) objectivist. I
)say this
)because I differ in my view of competition than most avowed members of
)either one
)of these groups. Still, I do think Libertarians are by far the most
)appealing
)political philosophy.
Well, let's hope Ezra's not a `libertine' either, or Kopp will have another
shot at Ezra's debauched Waldorf education.
Better to assume that Ezra is illiterate, or, worse, a bad pun [cq], than
to think that he has loose morals.
[rest snipped]
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1149.4 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: Re: Time weighs in...
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 12:27:45 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199903202352.PAA08714 lists1.best.com)
Ezra Beeman posted (for some obscure reason not related to the topic of
this list) and in his usual disregard for reader comfort:
)Time Picks Century's 'Great Minds'
)
)By CHELSEA J. CARTER Associated Press Writer
)
)NEW YORK (AP) -- The Wright brothers, whose flying machine made the world a
)smaller
)place, and Albert Einstein, whose theory of relativity expanded our view
)of the
)universe, are
)among Time magazine's picks as the 20th century's greatest minds.
)
)Time singled out 24 men and women responsible for scientific breakthroughs,
)inventions and
)innovations that led to such things as the atomic bomb, the airplane,
)television
)and the World
)Wide Web.
What? No Saint Rudy? What's the matter with `Time'?
Piaget? Who was he?
Why not A.S. Neill, instead?
And picking Shockley for the crass, mundane, commercial transistor, instead
of for his much more interesting metaphysical and anthropological insights
...
Gosh, Ezra, thanks for pointing out the shortsightedness of `Time' --
obviously they don't have clairvoyant vision of higher worlds, or they
would know that centuries hence Saint Rudy will be revered as the `father
of all spiritual englightenment'.
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1149.5 ---------------
From: Tarjei Straume (tastraum online.no)
Subject: Re: spacing
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 02:58:11 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199903210006.QAA15631 lists1.best.com)
Ezra wrote:
)Anyone have any other (polite) suggestions?
Eudora. (The Lite version is free, but I recommend Eudora Pro. I think demo
versions are available online.) Claris Emailer is also good. Netscape is
cumbersome for handling huge bulks of email. I only write through Netscape
when browsing and I want to leave a message to a site manager or owner.
I always take my time to format email manually, especially to make clear to
the reader the distinction between quotes and replies - who wrote what.
(Michael Kopp is very conscientious here, and Bruce is sloppy.) And to
delete all the superfluous text - a pertinent point made earlier by Dan
Dugan. And to clean up the spacing and line breaks after other posters when
responding to them. This is not always the fault of the posters; it is an
email application compatibility problem. I use Macintosh, and we Mac'ers
have to do all the converting from the PC'ers, because we're the minority.
I use a 17 inch monitor, but this only affects my web publishing, when I
try to keep in mind all those 15 inchers out there.
Cheers,
Tarjei
http://www.uncletaz.com/
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1149.6 ---------------
From: Tarjei Straume (tastraum online.no)
Subject: Re: Cherry Picking Richard Feynman
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 03:07:44 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199903200327.TAA29321 lists1.best.com)
(199903190648.WAA19210 lists1.best.com)
(199903192002.MAA05868 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903210014.QAA19726 lists1.best.com)
Michael Kopp wrote (to Ezra):
)Who the hell do you think you are to suggest that the *reader* should do
)the work of tidying up your sloppiness?
)
)Talk about Waldorf students' arrogance! Sheesh.
It should be possible to offer Ezra technical assistance without being so
angry and hostile. What's chewing you, Michael? Why all these personal
attacks? As for arrogance, you certainly beat Ezra by a long shot.
Tarjei
(one of your gullible twits)
http://www.uncletaz.com/
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1149.7 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Time weighs in...
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 18:30:07 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199903210044.QAA04370 lists1.best.com)
I posted the Time article, for what it's worth. An informed, popular opinion,
nothing more. Often someone tries to rank the importance of individuals on this
list, I thought a more objective analysis might inform the discussion. Plus,
many people I admire are honored on the list (Godel and Turing for example. Why
they picked Wittgenstein for his contribution is beyond me -- guess I will have
to buy a time magazine to find out(g)).
I'm afraid I only have cursory knowledge of Piaget, he was not addressed in my
psyche 101 style course. I'm sure he makes significant and remarkable
contributions to the field. Occasionally someone on this list tries to bring RS
and Piaget together, a sort of compare and contrast, if you will. If Piaget is
the top of field, and he contradicts WE, I think pointing these things out on
the PLANS site would be a powerful message.
I doubt there was a category for saints.
e
Michael Kopp wrote:
) What? No Saint Rudy? What's the matter with `Time'?
)
) Piaget? Who was he?
)
) Why not A.S. Neill, instead?
)
) And picking Shockley for the crass, mundane, commercial transistor, instead
) of for his much more interesting metaphysical and anthropological insights
) ...
)
) Gosh, Ezra, thanks for pointing out the shortsightedness of `Time' --
) obviously they don't have clairvoyant vision of higher worlds, or they
) would know that centuries hence Saint Rudy will be revered as the `father
) of all spiritual englightenment'.
)
) Cheers from Godzone,
)
) Michael Kopp
) Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1149.8 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Responses from a Libertine (g)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 18:36:07 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199903170817.AAA02839 lists1.best.com)
(199903172359.PAA06430 lists1.best.com) (199903210044.QAA04361 lists1.best.com)
Bet on bad pun every time.
e
Michael Kopp wrote:
) Better to assume that Ezra is illiterate, or, worse, a bad pun [cq], than
) to think that he has loose morals.
)
) [rest snipped]
)
) Cheers from Godzone,
)
) Michael Kopp
) Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1149.9 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Cherry Picking Richard Feynman
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 18:37:28 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199903200327.TAA29321 lists1.best.com)
(199903190648.WAA19210 lists1.best.com)
(199903192002.MAA05868 lists1.best.com) (199903210208.SAA16828 lists1.best.com)
Sounds like I'm walking tall in a roomful of midgets.(g)
e
Tarjei Straume wrote:
) Michael Kopp wrote (to Ezra):
)
) )Talk about Waldorf students' arrogance! Sheesh.
)
) As for arrogance, you certainly beat Ezra by a long shot.
)
) Tarjei
) (one of your gullible twits)
)
) http://www.uncletaz.com/
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1149.10 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: Re: spacing
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:41:30 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199903210006.QAA15631 lists1.best.com)
Ezra Beeman (a computer professional) begs for some help with his problem
with clean posting of Web page quotes:
)All right, this is ridiculous. After some thought, I believe this problem
)is a
)direct result of viewing the web through a large monitor and I will tell
)you
)why.
)When you cut and past from the browser under Wintel, the 'smart' clipboard
)gauges the spacing on the screen and inserts these into the text. This
)extremely problematic when trying to post 80 character text, as my client
)(Netscape) does not wrap my screen, but does wrap the outgoing message (if
)I set
)the prefs). So I COULD backspace out all formatting (leaving a single
)line,
)which my screen wraps to fit and the mail client wraps to 80 when I send)
)but
)this entails a minimum of 2 edits per line (white space on left, cr/lf on
)right)
)and I am probably not willing to do that. I think the newest version of
)Netscape allows wrapping of the screen (I am using 4.0 -- the last stable
)version) but is not worth the grief of serious memory stack leakage. In my
)opinion the best alternative is to leave my client without preferences for
)adding cr/lf's and people should view the text in a client that wraps. But
)we
)have been over this before...
)Anyone have any other (polite) suggestions?
)e
The problem is that 1) you're using a MickeySoft WinDoze platform and 2)
The Windoze NetsCrap browser email client is a pig.
But I guess some people are stuck with a wrong career decision ...
Suggestions:
You could get a real email programme, like Eudora. Even the free version
(3.1.x is latest for PC) is heaps more powerful and user friendly than any
browser- based email client. It's available for the PC; Tarjei's suggestion
of Claris Emailer (which is still available though no longer supported,
since Apple bought Claris back and shut it down -- Claris products are now
Apple products) won't work because it's a Mac-only programme.
You could get a Mac AND Eudora, and some software that I have found
invaluable. They are low-cost shareware products. One is called Text Soap,
and is a very powerful text cleanup utility. The other is called Net Print,
and is a great multi-clipping and filing/printing utility for use with ANY
programme, not just browsers. Finally, BB Edit Lite, freeware, is a great
text and HTML editor that includes features for quoting and cleaning up
Internet (Web and Email) text.
Failing that, the best I could do in an hour of searching, was to come up
with a utility to do what Text Soap does (according to its blurb). It's
called Internet Jackknife, and can be found at
http://fn2.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~tgreen/sw/sw.html
which was the only site that had it. Here's an excerpt of the blurb:
"Internet Jacknife is an MS-DOS file conversion utility. It reads a file,
does some specified operation on it, and puts out the result. It runs OK
under Windows and Windows 95, ideally suited for use in a batch file. The
operations it performs are:
* convert DOS to Unix text (fixes line endings)
* convert Unix to DOS text (fixes line endings)
* convert IBM code page 437 to ISO 8859-1 character set
* convert ISO 8859-1 to IBM code page 437 character set
* convert text to HTML
* convert HTML to text, listing links as cross refs if desired
* fold lines to a specified length
* uuencode
* uudecode
* remove all leading spaces from lines
* remove all trailing spaces from lines
* convert tabs to spaces according to specified tab width
* convert Unix man pages to text "
I have sent a copy of the downloaded programme to Ezra via email (it's only
18k), just to prove Tarjei wrong about my supposed hostility. Hey, it's
self-defence (g): I'm tired of having Ezra tell me (and everyone else) that
if we don't like the way he posts, we can go jump.
Windoze users would still have to copy Web text to the clipboard, paste it
into a text editor, run it through this utility (Jackknife), reformat it
with short line lengths (say 66 chars) and hard returns, and then copy it
back to their emailer, which, in the case of the MickeySoft crap would
probably barf on it and make it unreadable again.
Surely there's some better utilities for the WinDoze world that are similar
to TextSoap, NetPrint, and BB Edit? But, as I only deal with WinDoze when I
absolutely have to, and I'm not working for anyone at the moment who
insists I use a PC (politically correct) computer, I can't spend more time
looking for them. If I run across them, I'll be sure to let Ezra know.
Glad to help, Ezra. Really, mate.
Oh, for those people on the list who DO use Macs, here are the URLs for the
mentioned software:
NetPrint (fantastic shareware, worth every penny):
http://www93.pair.com/johnmoe/
BB Edit and BB Edit light (free): http://web.barebones.com/
Text Soap: http://www.unmarked.com
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1149 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1150 --------------
001 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - The Clarity Impulse
002 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: spacing
003 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - Re: Responses from a Libertine (g)
004 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - Re: Time weighs in...
005 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - Re: The Clarity Impulse
006 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Studies
007 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Experimental School is in Jeopardy
008 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: spacing
009 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Responses from a Libertine (g)
010 - Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis - Re: Cherry Picking Richard Feynman
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1150.1 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: The Clarity Impulse
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 19:01:22 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199903191841.KAA01742 lists1.best.com)
(199903192351.PAA25869 lists1.best.com) (199903210016.QAA20470 lists1.best.com)
I do note the opacity of my explanations, but me being simple is like you being
nice, out of character. (grin)
Really, absolute clarity is something I leave for when it is absolutely
necessary: coding routines and expository writing for work. The rest of the
time I am more inclined to be less formal in my communication.
Perhaps there is a reason good books do not read like manuals, or computer code
or mathematical proofs. -- All varying degrees of your clarity (simplicity)
impulse.
In college my Existentialism teacher referred me to a T.S. Elliot passage
stating one should never use a 20 cent word when two 10 cent words would do. I
took this as a bit hollow considering his prose in Wasteland, but agreed I often
fail to communicate my ideas simply.
I also agree with your point on Feynman being down to earth. I disagree with
your analogy of the janitor since the janitor is not heaping scorn and ridicule
on RF. I have a notion RF would probably be less kind under those
circumstances.
You make clear statements people understand, but what is the value there if they
are misleading and plain wrong?
e
Michael Kopp wrote:
) You could, for instance, take that part about explaining things so others
) can undeerstand them. Many of your posts use impenatrable logic and abysmal
) language skills, and take a great deal of puzzling over to understand. I am
) not the only one who has remarked on this quality, or lack of it, Ezra.
)
) Feynman also never looked down on anyone when it came to explaining his
) greater knowledge or different view. He may have been vain, but he also
) could talk with the janitor and get something from the janitor in exchange
) for enlightening the janitor. Feynman had a deep, humanistic humility.
)
) You probably have some useful and interesting things to say, Ezra, but your
) haughty attitude is even worse than my bitterness over the damage a Steiner
) school did to my children. Where your haughtiness impedes your message, I
) think my bitterness does not prevent me from making clear, concise and
) direct statements that people can understand. Maybe that's because I'm sort
) of in the same business as Feynman -- explaining the world to other people.
)
) Think about it, Ezra. Think about _others_, Ezra -- like Feynman did.
)
) Cheers from Godzone,
)
) Michael Kopp
) Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1150.2 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: spacing
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 19:20:31 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199903210242.SAA02305 lists1.best.com)
I agree my biggest problem is Wintel. I miss UNIX *sigh*.
In the meanwhile, no matter what programs you send me, when I cut and paste them
into my client using the clipboard I am foobar.
I should probably just write a simple VB parsing program to suppress all leading
and trailing spacing, and carriage returns. Paragraphs would be inserted as
blank lines. Then I can paste that beast into the Netscape client using the
clipboard, which would slice and dice to 80 upon sending. Violla!
It should take me about 20 minutes (come Monday), and I will make it available
to all comers (but since it is VB, means you have to install a .dll which could
be dangerous.)
If someone sees an error in my process flow, please point it out.
e
PS you're a doll Kopp.
Michael Kopp wrote:
) Windoze users would still have to copy Web text to the clipboard, paste it
) into a text editor, run it through this utility (Jackknife), reformat it
) with short line lengths (say 66 chars) and hard returns, and then copy it
) back to their emailer, which, in the case of the MickeySoft crap would
) probably barf on it and make it unreadable again.
)
) Surely there's some better utilities for the WinDoze world that are similar
) to TextSoap, NetPrint, and BB Edit? But, as I only deal with WinDoze when I
) absolutely have to, and I'm not working for anyone at the moment who
) insists I use a PC (politically correct) computer, I can't spend more time
) looking for them. If I run across them, I'll be sure to let Ezra know.
)
) Glad to help, Ezra. Really, mate.
)
) Oh, for those people on the list who DO use Macs, here are the URLs for the
) mentioned software:
)
) NetPrint (fantastic shareware, worth every penny):
) http://www93.pair.com/johnmoe/
)
) BB Edit and BB Edit light (free): http://web.barebones.com/
)
) Text Soap: http://www.unmarked.com
)
) Cheers from Godzone,
)
) Michael Kopp
) Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1150.3 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: Re: Responses from a Libertine (g)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 20:10:16 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199903170817.AAA02839 lists1.best.com)
(199903172359.PAA06430 lists1.best.com)
(199903210044.QAA04361 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903210230.SAA26934 lists1.best.com)
)Bet on bad pun every time.
)e
)
)Michael Kopp wrote:
)
)) Better to assume that Ezra is illiterate, or, worse, a bad pun [cq], than
)) to think that he has loose morals.
))
)) [rest snipped]
))
)) Cheers from Godzone,
))
)) Michael Kopp
)) Wellington, New Zealand
I was referring to YOU, Ezra, not your pun[k]-tiliousness.
What are the odds on your nose, and how many races have you won so far?
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1150.4 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: Re: Time weighs in...
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 20:06:57 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199903210044.QAA04370 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903210224.SAA24337 lists1.best.com)
Ezra Beeman said:
)I posted the Time article, for what it's worth. An informed, popular
)opinion,
)nothing more. Often someone tries to rank the importance of individuals
)on this
)list, I thought a more objective analysis might inform the discussion.
[snip]
Michael KOPP says:
Time Magazine is objective?
Or is Ezra talking about himself?
He's right about Time being "popular" -- but that's not much of a
recommendation.
As to "informed" -- I think the erudition of Time magazine's writers has
dropped out the bottom of the scale in my adult lifetime.
I'll pick my own greats of the century, if I may. People like Noam Chomsky
and Sidney Schandberg and John Hersey and John Pilger and Jonathan Schell
and all the unsung heroes of the fight for truth.
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1150.5 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: Re: The Clarity Impulse
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 20:18:11 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199903191841.KAA01742 lists1.best.com)
(199903192351.PAA25869 lists1.best.com)
(199903210016.QAA20470 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903210256.SAA08814 lists1.best.com)
Ezra Beeman says:
)I do note the opacity of my explanations, but me being simple is like you
)[Michael Kopp] being nice, out of character. (grin)
[snip]
)You make clear statements people understand, but what is the value there if
)they are misleading and plain wrong?
)e
Well, thanks, Ezra, that's the nicest thing you've said about me since you
came onto the list: "...IF...".
So you admit the possibility that I might be right?
Or are we up against your imprecision and illiteracy again, and what you
actually mean to say is "Michael Kopp's statements are valuless because
they are misleading and plain wrong".
Somehow, I think it's the latter. See? I'm learning to decode you, Ezra.
And I challenge you again to show where I have been misleading or wrong --
with evidence.
You haven't done so yet -- oh, I forgot, you're too busy for such trivia as
evidence.
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1150.6 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Studies
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 12:34:45 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (36F3AD90.D1498925 interlog.com)
Received from the PLANS web site:
)Can you refer me to any studies which compare the way Waldorf students
)perform in life in comparison with those students who have received a
)conventional education ?
)
)Looking forward to hearing from you.
[Alan Poole (afnpoole interlog.com)]
Alan, thanks for your note. Nobody knows. There was a study comparing
German Waldorf grads to public school students published in 1981. It's now
out of print. I have a copy, but it's in German. We keep urging academics
to study Waldorf, and hope to get this question answered eventually. A good
study would compare the Waldorf grads to other private school grads of
similar backgrounds.
Mary Henry's anthropological study compares a Waldorf school to a
neighboring private school, but she doesn't look at academic performance or
outcomes. See the bookstore section of the PLANS web site.
-Dan Dugan
copy to waldorf-critics mailing list
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1150.7 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Experimental School is in Jeopardy
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 01:17:51 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
March 20, 1999, Saturday
Metropolitan Desk
Experimental School Is in Jeopardy
By ADAM GERSHENSON
The West Side Community School, a tiny experimental program on the fifth
floor of an old school building on West 93d Street, is like no other public
school in New York City.
It is different not only because it is small (120 students in kindergarten
through fifth grade) and new (the current program is four years old), but
also because of its unconventional curriculum, the only one in the city's
public schools inspired by the turn-of-the-century philosopher Rudolf
Steiner.
At West Side Community, boys and girls alike learn to sew and play the
recorder. Parents are urged to limit the amount of television their
children watch, and the youngest students do not use computers. In the
early grades, there is far more stress on art than on reading.
Now that emphasis may mean the experiment is over. Disappointing scores on
last April's citywide reading tests have convinced the Superintendent of
Community School District 3, which includes the Upper West Side, that the
program is not working and should be ended, public school officials and
parents said over the last two weeks. The unconventional teaching methods
used in the program were also cited by the school officials.
The Superintendent, Patricia A. Romandetto, did not return repeated phone
calls seeking comment over the last two weeks.
The move to end the program has a peculiar twist: the Schools Chancellor,
Rudy Crew, tried with mixed success to establish Steiner-inspired public
schools when he was superintendent in Sacramento, Calif., in the early
1990's.
A spokeswoman for Dr. Crew, Angela Hernandez, said that he was unavailable
for comment. She said that the matter was up to Ms. Romandetto, and that
Dr. Crew would support her decision.
J. D. LaRock, a spokesman for the Board of Education, said last week that
Ms. Romandetto was seriously considering admitting no kindergartners to
West Side Community in the fall as a prelude to closing it in 2000.
Mr. LaRock cited West Side Community's mediocre performance on the citywide
third- and fourth-grade reading tests last spring as one of the school's
primary failures. Just 33 percent of the students read at or above grade
level; the citywide average is 51 percent.
But parents and teachers say test scores are not everything. ''I have
nothing against testing, but it shouldn't be the sole measure of a school's
success,'' said Susan Kotansky, the kindergarten teacher at West Side
Community. ''We educate the heads, hearts and hands of our students.'' In
an effort to save the program, parents have formed a coalition and met
several times with Ms. Romandetto, but they say she has been unmoved.
West Side Community would not be the system's first experimental school to
close. In 1996, Community School Board 27 shut a small alternative school
in Far Rockaway, Queens, that was run by Acorn, a community group based in
Brooklyn. Acorn has said that the school was closed after relations with
the principal and members of the board soured.
A central tenet of the Steiner method used at West Side Community is that
young children develop at their own pace and should not be intellectually
rushed. In the early grades, they build their skills more by imitating the
artwork and writing of their teacher than by producing original work.
Stories are told by the teacher rather than read by the students.
The Steiner method -- more often called Waldorf, after the German cigarette
company that financed the first Steiner school in 1919 -- is distinctly out
of sync with the nationwide movement for high and measurable academic
performance. But the method is used in 140 private schools in North
America, 70 of them founded within the last 10 years, according to the
Association of Waldorf Schools of North America.
West Side Community, between Amsterdam and Columbus Avenues in the Joan of
Arc Junior High School building, has existed since 1993; it began
incorporating Waldorf techniques in 1995, when James Mazza was the
district's Superintendent.
At the time, the change seemed a lucky coincidence; the district wanted
alternative programs that would keep children in the public school system,
and a handful of local teachers were espousing Waldorf methods through a
group called Waldorf in the Mainstream. Edna Johnson, the program director,
hired Ms. Kotansky as the school's first Waldorf-trained teacher, and the
program opened in September 1995 with 25 kindergartners.
The school, which has grown each year, attracts students from all over New
York City, and from various ethnic backgrounds. Last year, 10 percent of
its students were white, 60 percent black, and 30 percent Hispanic,
according to the Board of Education's most recent report.
Defenders of the program say they do not want their children flooded with
information, preferring to see them instead grow up able to sing, dance and
paint. Susan Abdul-Malik Dunn, whose daughter Aisha attends first grade at
West Side Community, does not want the school to close.
''We searched high and low for a school like this that would educate the
entire person, instead of just shoving them full of knowledge that they
cannot use and have no outlet for,'' Ms. Dunn said.
Aisha, 7, agreed. ''I like everything at my school,'' she said. ''I get to
knit and I get to sew and I get to play my recorder and I get to read and
write.''
The school had accepted 23 children for next fall's kindergarten class
before it learned of the superintendent's plans. It now seems unlikely that
they will be able to attend.
Integrating Waldorf methods into public school systems may not be easy, but
it has been done. Third graders at the Urban Waldorf School in Milwaukee
have met or slightly exceeded the district's reading standards for the last
three years.
Mark Birdsall, a teacher at the Milwaukee school, said that to improve
standardized test scores, the school began teaching reading skills in first
grade.
In Sacramento, said Arlene Monks, coordinator of the Rudolf Steiner College
in Fair Oaks, Calif., Dr. Crew sought to establish four Waldorf schools in
an effort to shore up student performance. Three never got off the ground,
but in 1994, the district did open one public school inspired by the
Waldorf system.
It is still open. Maria Lopez, a spokeswoman for the Sacramento district
superintendent, said the school placed 31st out of 55 district schools on a
comprehensive achievement test last year. She said that neither the test
scores, nor a roof cave-in in 1996 had deterred parents; enrollment swelled
to 200 students last year, from 93 the year before.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1150.8 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: spacing
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 01:37:05 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199903210006.QAA15631 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903210242.SAA02305 lists1.best.com)
Eudora Pro has a nifty command. Just highlight all that weird text from the
web site, hold down the option key, and select "unwrap selection" from the
edit menu. It often does the whole job in one stroke, getting rid of
leading spaces and unwrapping paragraphs.
-Dan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1150.9 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Responses from a Libertine (g)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 01:38:15 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199903170817.AAA02839 lists1.best.com)
(199903172359.PAA06430 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903202346.PAA05820 lists1.best.com)
Ezra Beeman, you wrote,
)I look at it (WE) more like educational technology (I like Premo's example of
)Martial Arts). Should you limit yourself to boxing since Kung Fu is based on
)religious doctrine? I do not think you need Marines to be buddhist to be
)effective, nor does their training somehow make them buddhist. (I am assuming
)Marines learn Kung Fu for the sake of illustration.)
I was given a course in killer Karate by the U.S. Army in 1965. It was
completely de-spiritualized. Breath control and all, but no bowing or
reverence, no chi, just the functional activities.
If there was such a thing as a Waldorf method without Anthroposophy, it
could be done that way.
-Dan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1150.10 ---------------
From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Cherry Picking Richard Feynman
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 05:53:04 +0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: (199903190648.WAA19210 lists1.best.com)
(199903192002.MAA05868 lists1.best.com)
(199903200327.TAA29321 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903200327.TAA29321 lists1.best.com)
Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org) wrote:
)you are equally able to edit the text for readability.
I wonder if my publisher would let me this attitude...
Noctis Gaudia Carpe,
Stephen
--
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+ Stephen Tonkin | ATM Resources; Astro-Tutorials; Astronomy Books +
+ (N50.9105 W1.829) | (http://www.aegis1.demon.co.uk) +
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1150 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1151 --------------
001 - Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis - Re: spacing
002 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: spacing
003 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: The Clarity Impulse
004 - Kevin Houston (Kevin urly - Re: Responses from a Libertine (g)
005 - Kevin Houston (Kevin urly - Re: spacing
006 - Kevin Houston (Kevin urly - Re: Questions for a Libertarian (Ezra)
007 - WaldorfEdu aol.com - Waldorf without anthroposphy
008 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - Re: The Clarity Impulse
009 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: The Clarity Impulse
010 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - Re: The Clarity Impulse
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1151.1 ---------------
From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: spacing
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 06:04:47 +0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: (199903210006.QAA15631 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903210006.QAA15631 lists1.best.com)
Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org) wrote:
)Anyone have any other (polite) suggestions?
Merely to remember:
* Not everyone can afford the sort of system you have; some of us are
using very old computers.
* A reader which automagically word-wraps also auto-trashes things like
the formatting of tables if these extend beyond the word-wrap length.
Noctis Gaudia Carpe,
Stephen
--
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+ Stephen Tonkin | ATM Resources; Astro-Tutorials; Astronomy Books +
+ (N50.9105 W1.829) | (http://www.aegis1.demon.co.uk) +
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1151.2 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: spacing
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 12:54:48 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199903210006.QAA15631 lists1.best.com) (199903210944.BAA19287 lists1.best.com)
Eudora Pro's function sounds exactly what I need and it is already built into
the client. (Thus bypassing the 'intelligent' clipboard.)
e
Dan Dugan wrote:
) Eudora Pro has a nifty command. Just highlight all that weird text from the
) web site, hold down the option key, and select "unwrap selection" from the
) edit menu. It often does the whole job in one stroke, getting rid of
) leading spaces and unwrapping paragraphs.
)
) -Dan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1151.3 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: The Clarity Impulse
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 13:13:08 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199903191841.KAA01742 lists1.best.com)
(199903192351.PAA25869 lists1.best.com)
(199903210016.QAA20470 lists1.best.com) (199903210826.AAA26874 lists1.best.com)
The sententence you selected indicates grammatical imprecision on my part.
In this case (see above) your claims of my illiteracy stem from my imprecision.
I would argue there is much more to illiteracy than mere imprecision -- Hence
you are misleading, and plain wrong in your conclusion.
Can I be imprecise? Yes. Does this imprecision indicate I am illiterate? Nope.
Perhaps I might send you my thesis on Rational Expectations Theory? Seems two
PhDs would take issue with your summary judgements of the imprecision and
illiteracy of my writing. It was recommended for Departmental Honors in
Economics.
e
Michael Kopp wrote:
) Ezra Beeman says:
)
) )You make clear statements people understand, but what is the value there if
) )they are misleading and plain wrong?
) )e
) Or are we up against your imprecision and illiteracy again, and what you
) actually mean to say is "Michael Kopp's statements are valuless because
) they are misleading and plain wrong".
) Cheers from Godzone,
)
) Michael Kopp
) Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1151.4 ---------------
From: Kevin Houston (Kevin urly-bird.com)
Subject: Re: Responses from a Libertine (g)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 18:56:33 -0600
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References: (199903170817.AAA02839 lists1.best.com)
(199903172359.PAA06430 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903202346.PAA05820 lists1.best.com)
At 03:51 PM 3/20/99 -0800, Ezra wrote:
)I really think the church/state argument is a red herring for Libertarians
)so far as the state should not be in the business of education in the
)first place. (Boaz praise snipped for brevity) The business of
)government is government. Full stop.
So that is a 'no', you think a Waldorf School (WS) should not receive
public funding, same as any other type of school. I agree with you
completely. I think many people were arguing with you on this point
(separation of church/state) because they didn't understand your position.
)To me it seems to make little difference if you are trying to
)incarnate properly, or be self actualized, or simply realizing your full
)potential (same thing, different jargon).
(side note, yes, I agree with you in that I see little difference between
those who are trying to 'incarnate properly' according to a little known
writer at the turn of last century, and those who are trying to 'self
actualize' according to little known writers at the turn of this century.)
)Another assumption (the first being state run education) in your question
)is the religious nature of WE, which I personally did not experience. Not
)once before subscribing to this list did I ever conceive of WE as religion
)based, or even in religious terms.
Okay, fair enough, you deny that there is religion in WE. But I am still a
little confused, are you denying it because:
a) Anthroposophy is never (or rarely) included in WE.
b) Anthroposophy is not a religion, but something else; even if it were
included it would not be religion in WE.
c) both.
d) neither.
)I look at it (WE) more like educational technology (I like Premo's
)example of Martial Arts). Should you limit yourself to boxing since
)Kung Fu is based on religious doctrine? I do not think you need
)Marines to be buddhist to be effective, nor does their training somehow
)make them buddhist.
Well, it is possible to teach Kung Fu from a mechanical, non-religious
viewpoint (put your hand here, hold your foot in this position, grab your
opponents wrist and turn like so.) That is what makes it a martial *art*,
instead of a martial *prayer*. What many of the critics are saying is that
WE is not taught from a non-religious viewpoint. That in order to be
taught the "art", it is first required that you accept the "prayer"
(eurythmy, four elements, etc.) I do not know if this is true or not, I'm
only interpreting what I see written on the list.
)Your second question requires a huge if, in my opinion. My experience
)with both these characters lends little to support their claims of duplicity
)and fraud. (ad hominem snippped) D&K might simply be scapegoating
)institutions they do not agree with and did not properly vet. Remember
)Libertarianism's other sacred cow: caveat emptor.
To be fair Ezra, I think Kopp and Dugan have both accepted their share of
responsibility for putting their children in this situation. But basically
you are saying that you don't believe their evidence of duplicity.
)However, IF Kopp and Dugan speak the gospel truth, then of course such
)actions should be redressed. Does it give them license to attack the whole
)of RS's universe? Nope. Does my personal experience resonate with their
)claims? Nope.
Then it is up to Dan and Michael to *prove* that they were lied to, or
misled. I'm sure the evidence has been hashed over and over again. But
they do not need license to attack RS's universe, just as you don't need
one to refute them. By the way, if Dan and Michael's (et al) claims *were*
proven, what redress do you think would be appropriate?
)As to what others SHOULD do, this is not my business really. There are
Really? You mean you could be aware (hypothetically) of an outright case
of fraud, and still not feel honor-bound to point it out to everyone else
who might happen by, and further you are saying that you would not be
shocked by anyone else who didn't do that either? I strongly disagree with
you.
Using the force of Government (or any other kind of force) to moderate what
others 'should' do is wrong, of course. Moderating your own actions in
response to what others do is right.
A case in point:
Here in Minneapolis, we had a wanna-be shock jock (Tom Bernard of KQRS for
those who know the radio market here) who made some racially insensitive
remarks on the air about the Hmong. The community was outraged, and enough
people were seriously talking boycott that the sponsors put pressure on the
radio station (a few canceled their ad spots), and KQRS finally apologized
and agreed to some other changes. This proved that we do not need
government regulation of what is acceptable speech on the radio, the
community is capable of regulating itself.
In the same vein, the Waldorf Community (WC) *should* denounce any and all
instances of deceit in any particular WS. This will prove that we don't
need some truth-in-advertising committee to oversee what gets said when
parents check into a WS.
)plenty of
)alternative hypotheses as to why the AS does not speak to Kopp and Dugan's
)claims. Who is arbiter of the default hypothesis here anyway? Let the courts
)decide if no agreements can be reached (and it is a case of fraud.)
Of course, it could be that Dan and Michael are lying, or simply
misunderstood, but what if they are telling
the truth? Would it bother _you_? Would the continued silence of others
in the WC, in the face of *proof* of deceit, bother _you_?
)I really have no opinion on the disclosure statement as I think WE cannot
)hide the truth, and the assumption of conspiracy is ridiculous. If parents
)demand the statements, they will be forthcoming.
So you are saying that failure to tell the whole truth is not a lie; that
is interesting. I wonder what happens if the parents don't think to ask.
I mean, after all, one does not usually expect to find faith of any kind in
a school without it being explicitly pointed out. Catholic schools never
hide the religious nature of their education. Nor does any Jewish chader
or yeshiva that I know of. Such schools *advertise* their religious
nature. But when I see ads for Waldorf schools, they don't mention
Anthroposophy. I'm not saying that is evidence of conspiracy, it just
strikes me as odd, because I hear statements from people I have no reason
to doubt telling me anthroposophy is taught all the time in WS.
)Dan and Kopp are welcome to call all the attention they want, and not once
)have I called for either one of them to be censored. Tit for tat is low
as I go
Statements like "Does it give them license to attack the whole of RS's
universe? Nope." (see above) give the impression that they *need* a
license, and that it is wrong somehow to attack this "great man's" other
work. If you feel that they have a right to talk about this, then you do
not do yourself or your position any favors by making statements like this.
You only hand a club to your opponents with which to beat you over the
head; then the discourse strays into ad hominem and invective.
)(and I might add a scientifically proven disciplinary strategy. -- See game
)theoretical texts). But my reason's for being on this list are fundamentally
)the same as both these characters, a desire for fairness and truth.
Yes, I am familiar with tit-for-tat and the prisoner's dilemma. But you
might be interested to know that there is a *better* strategy than pure
tit-for-tat. It is forgiving tit-for-tat: once every third time, forgive
and ignore an insult. This prevents any cycles of retribution from getting
established. Such cycles are the main Achilles heel of tit-for-tat (qv:
flame wars).
Fairness and truth are interesting terms, truth especially is one of those
problem words in this discussion. Truth to an Anthroposophist is different
than truth to a rationalist (for want of a better term). To a rationalist,
truth is verifiable regardless of initial belief, to an Anthroposophist,
truth is (IMHO) "what Steiner said." I cannot read the Akashic record (I
am told) until I embrace the beliefs (and not just the methods) of one
Rudolph Steiner. (and maybe not even then)
It is the hallmark of science that scientists of *opposing* religious and
cultural belief can come to the *exact same conclusion* regarding the truth
or falsity of a statement (the world is round, the intensity of
electro-magnetic radiation follows an inverse-square relationship with the
distance). Perhaps they differ on the reason why, but the factual truth or
falsity of the statement can be proven (or disproven.)
If I drop an object, and it remains suspended in midair without any means
of support, then the theory of gravity is disproved. The fact that this
has never been shown to happen, is one small support for the theory, but by
no means conclusive proof. The fact remains that I can describe an
experiment in which a certain result would disprove a certain aspect of the
theory. Such as measuring the position of radio sources in the galaxy as
the earth moves into such a position that the sun and this distant radio
source are observed to coincide, and noting the apparent shift in position
due, it is assumed, to the sun's gravitational field warping the space.
We can disagree about exactly *why* this occurs, but the verifiable truth
is that it does occur. you can concentrate, and disbelieve all you want,
but it still occurs. You don't need to study the cosmological constant, or
understand Einstein's (or even Maxwell's) equations to know the truth of
it. All you need to be taught, is how to use a radio telescope, you don't
even have to know how one actually works.
But if I concentrate with all my being on reading the Akashic record, and
fail to even perceive it's existence, much less peruse it's contents, then
that is not proof of it not being there. It could be that I am simply
blind in that sense. or my skepticism may be "getting in the way". Since
no experiment can be done to tease apart the experimenter's pre-existing
belief from the results, such things as the Akashic record remain articles
of faith, and not of science. If the history read from the Akashic record
is taught in any school, as anything other than an amusing story, without
the parents knowing the story and the source of it, then that is (IMHO)
deceitful. Just as if a school teaches Creationism (as read in Genesis),
without the parents knowledge. (note that Catholic schools and yeshivas
may both teach Genesis as literal truth with being deceitful, because they
take pains to make sure that parents know what is taught, and in fact, many
parents wish to have their children taught this.
Kevin Houston
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1151.5 ---------------
From: Kevin Houston (Kevin urly-bird.com)
Subject: Re: spacing
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:08:00 -0600
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References: (199903210242.SAA02305 lists1.best.com)
(199903210006.QAA15631 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903210944.BAA19287 lists1.best.com)
At 01:37 AM 3/21/99 -0800, Dan wrote:
)Eudora Pro has a nifty command. Just highlight
)all that weird text from the web site, hold down
)the option key, and select "unwrap selection"
)from the edit menu. It often does the whole job
)in one stroke, getting rid of leading spaces and
)unwrapping paragraphs.
Hey, Cool! Thanks Dan, I noticed it is under "Message Plug-ins" on the
edit menu on Windoze systems.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1151.6 ---------------
From: Kevin Houston (Kevin urly-bird.com)
Subject: Re: Questions for a Libertarian (Ezra)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:53:43 -0600
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In-Reply-To: (199903201628.IAA14746 lists1.best.com)
Dear Alan,
Yes, I see your point. You are correct, inasmuch as I prefer not to
attribute to evil that which can be ascribed to laziness. But if a teacher
or school administrator omits certain facts from the sales pitch given to
prospective parents, then isn't that proof that they are aware that this
sounds flaky, and are being purposefully deceitful. I mean, if they really
had trouble distinguishing between Anthroposophy, and non-Anthroposophy,
wouldn't that come across in the orientation as well? Someone I know once
said of rapists who say, "I can't help it, I am mentally ill." (I am *NOT*
comparing Waldorfians to rapists, don't even go there) "You know that they
_can_ help themselves, because you never see anyone raping women in public.
They always wait until there is no one else around. They know the
difference, they know it is wrong."
By the same token, *IF* a Waldorf teacher is teaching Anthroposophy in the
classroom, but doesn't mention Anthroposophy in the literature, or in the
initial meetings with the parents, *THEN* that is evidence that they are
aware of the difference. The two possible defenses against this charge of
duplicity are: 1) mentioning Anthroposophy in the initial meetings or
brochure, or 2) not mentioning Anthroposophy in the classroom.
BTW, it would be equally as wrong to mention (or advertise) Anthroposophy
to the parents, and then not deliver it in the classroom. I have no
problem with parents who seek it out because they are making free-market
choices. I believe that it will give my children an edge over their
children in the job market. Perhaps they are right, perhaps I am right.
Only time will tell, and I would not like to live in a world in which my
only "choice" was what flavor of Waldorf education I could get.
At 10:26 PM 3/19/99 -0700, Alan wrote:
)Dear Kevin,
)
)Your concern about NIOF is an important one. To me
)the root of the problem is that many anthroposophists
)see anthroposophy not as a seperate spiritual entity of
)some sort, but as a part of reality. In fact (and correct
)me if I am wrong) the dissolution of the barriers between
)the spiritual and material worlds is one of the major facets
)of anthroposophy. Because to them it is all one reality,
)anthroposophists have little context from which to distinguish
)when they are teaching AP and how much. Lack of
)disclosure is not so much an act of deliberate deception
)as much as a product of the mind set of the anthroposophists
)themselves.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1151.7 ---------------
From: WaldorfEdu aol.com
Subject: Waldorf without anthroposphy
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:23:14 EST
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Dan knows quite well (and has known for at least 3 years) the following:
1 Courses were established at a university in the UK on the Waldorf approach
to education (without anthroposophy)
2 Courses were established at San Diego State University (and other
universities in southern California on the Waldorf approach to education
(without anthroposophy)
Both sets of courses were extremely popular
3 I've been teaching teachers in the public school system (for the last 30
years) about the approach (without anthroposophy)
4 I've given presentations/workshops on the Waldorf approach (without
anthroposophy) at some of the most prestigious education conferences in the
world (ASCD, NCSS, NAESP, NAMS etc. etc.)
5 I've coauthored with my wife many many Teaching Packs (based on the Waldorf
approach but without anthroposophy) and sold by the biggest distributor of
history/social studies material in the USA that were very popular in
California until PLANS became known.
I could continue but see little point. What Dan and PLANS has done is to see
that tens of thousands of young children who would have been taught through an
artistic approach (they would have been absorbed information through stories,
drama and art and craft activities) have been denied such opportunities -
enough said!!
Meanwhile Waldorf will continue to increase/spread in the public sector albeit
with many "ups and downs" mainly because teachers are not adequately prepared
to teach the Waldorf approach in a public school system. It is very easy but
somewhat irresponsible to ignore what the system requires (whether the system
is right or wrong!) but it does a grave disservice to children and IMHO what
happens to them should be the main determinant of what happens.
Yes I still believe Waldorf should and will make an enormous contribution to
public school education. I say that with the full knowledge that anyone who
goes along that path is going to be met with (again in IMHO) two extreme and
fanatical viewpoints (the anthroposophists and PLANS). Perhaps there are
people who have been treated worse by anthroposophists than my goodself over
the last 30 years but I don't know of anyone!! - see
members.aol.com/WaldorfEdu/experiences.html
Meanwhile I'll continue to believe in the approach being taught in an
appropriate way in public schools and hope that some day there will be
established at uni level courses for this. One result of this would be that
teachers would be adequately prepared (what has happened in the USA was
completely avoidable).
Regards
David
Dr. David Mollet
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1151.8 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: Re: The Clarity Impulse
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:43:58 +1200
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References: (199903191841.KAA01742 lists1.best.com)
(199903192351.PAA25869 lists1.best.com)
(199903210016.QAA20470 lists1.best.com)
(199903210826.AAA26874 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903212108.NAA00818 lists1.best.com)
Exra Beeman writes:
)The sententence you selected indicates grammatical imprecision on my part.
)
)In this case (see above) your claims of my illiteracy stem from my
)imprecision.
)I would argue there is much more to illiteracy than mere imprecision --
)Hence
)you are misleading, and plain wrong in your conclusion.
)
)Can I be imprecise? Yes. Does this imprecision indicate I am illiterate?
)Nope.
If one is consistenly imprecise, that is functional illiteracy. I think
most educators and language scholars would agree with this definition.
)Perhaps I might send you my thesis on Rational Expectations Theory? Seems
)two
)PhDs would take issue with your summary judgements of the imprecision and
)illiteracy of my writing. It was recommended for Departmental Honors in
)Economics.
)e
Would, you, please? Seriously.
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
WEllington, New Zealand
)
)Michael Kopp wrote:
)
)) Ezra Beeman says:
))
)) )You make clear statements people understand, but what is the value
))there if
)) )they are misleading and plain wrong?
)) )e
)) Or are we up against your imprecision and illiteracy again, and what you
)) actually mean to say is "Michael Kopp's statements are valuless because
)) they are misleading and plain wrong".
)) Cheers from Godzone,
))
)) Michael Kopp
)) Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1151.9 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: The Clarity Impulse
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 19:54:42 -0800
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References: (199903191841.KAA01742 lists1.best.com)
(199903192351.PAA25869 lists1.best.com)
(199903210016.QAA20470 lists1.best.com)
(199903210826.AAA26874 lists1.best.com) (199903220245.SAA26302 lists1.best.com)
Michael Kopp wrote:
) )
) )Can I be imprecise? Yes. Does this imprecision indicate I am illiterate?
) )Nope.
)
) If one is consistenly imprecise, that is functional illiteracy. I think
) most educators and language scholars would agree with this definition.
Are all poets illiterate then?I think functional illiteracy goes way beyond
consistent imprecision.
How do you feel about literature rich in metaphor? Allegories?
) )Perhaps I might send you my thesis on Rational Expectations Theory? Seems
) )two
) )PhDs would take issue with your summary judgements of the imprecision and
) )illiteracy of my writing. It was recommended for Departmental Honors in
) )Economics.
) )e
)
) Would, you, please? Seriously.
I will be happy to send the thesis to anyone interested. Do you mind if I just
zip together a bunch of word files? The text binaries would hopefully maintain
the formatting and footnotes.e
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1151.10 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: Re: The Clarity Impulse
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 21:03:50 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199903191841.KAA01742 lists1.best.com)
(199903192351.PAA25869 lists1.best.com)
(199903210016.QAA20470 lists1.best.com)
(199903210826.AAA26874 lists1.best.com)
(199903220245.SAA26302 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903220350.TAA06168 lists1.best.com)
Ezra Beeman wrote:
)Michael Kopp wrote:
)
)) )
)) )Can I be imprecise? Yes. Does this imprecision indicate I am
))illiterate?
)) )Nope.
))
)) If one is consistenly imprecise, that is functional illiteracy. I think
)) most educators and language scholars would agree with this definition.
)
)Are all poets illiterate then?I think functional illiteracy goes way beyond
)consistent imprecision.
)How do you feel about literature rich in metaphor? Allegories?
Poets and metaphorical literature are irrelevant here.
In this forum you're neither a poet or a literary lion.
Functional illiteracy is the inability to communicate to all, not just to
those who have the intellect or training to appreciate poetry and
literature, when required or desired.
In this forum it is useful to be able to be easily understandable, not
abstruse or deep or poetic or literary.
The plainest language is usually the best. Remember, _you_ quoted Feynman
on understandability, not me.
Remember the great oratory of some of the prominent people you have
mentioned here. Eloquence can be found in simplicity and transparency.
The fact is, quite a lot of what you write is very difficult to decipher.
One must use experience with your idiom and cant to decode what you may
_mean_ from your imprecision and laxness.
And your refusal to adhere to Netiquette norms doesn't help.
But, since you demonstrate such a rich vein of evidence from your
experience of the Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophical educational system, I
will go on trying to make something of your posts, in hopes that I will get
a better understanding of what is educationally wrong with SWA education.
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1151 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1152 --------------
001 - BruceyJ aol.com - Re: Recommended Speech
002 - BruceyJ aol.com - Re: Cherry Picking Richard Feynman
003 - BruceyJ aol.com - Re: Experimental School is in Jeopardy
004 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Questions for a Libertarian (Ezra)
005 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Responses from a Libertine (g)
006 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: Waldorf without anthroposphy
007 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - RE: Questions for a Libertarian (Ezra)
008 - Tarjei Straume (tastraum - Re: Waldorf without anthroposphy
009 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: The Clarity Impulse
010 - RSSNYC aol.com - Re: Clarity on Westide School
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1152.1 ---------------
From: BruceyJ aol.com
Subject: Re: Recommended Speech
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:12:27 EST
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In einer eMail vom 21.03.99 01:26:58 (MEZ) Mitteleurop”ische Zeit schreibt
mkopp xtra.co.nz:
)
) Sorry for the delay in answering this one ...
It gave me a chance to get my birthday out of the way!
)
) Take your pick, mix and match, or you can have the whole bundle at a
) discount price!
)
OK - but sometimes it IS helpful to know WHO you are aiming your criticism at.
Bruce
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1152.2 ---------------
From: BruceyJ aol.com
Subject: Re: Cherry Picking Richard Feynman
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:12:26 EST
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In einer eMail vom 21.03.99 01:26:42 (MEZ) Mitteleurop”ische Zeit schreibt
mkopp xtra.co.nz:
)
) FWIW, it's a trait I see in many of the local Steiner school graduates, and
) it mirrors the traits of the Steiner school teachers and authorities I have
) had to deal with in our former school: "take it or leave it, we couldn't
) care less about what you think".
)
Well Michael, at least you state that it "mirrors the traits of the Steiner
school teachers and authorities I have
had to deal with ..." and not blindly said that ALL SWA (isnt that your
acronym) ...!
I DO care what you think, at least when you are civil! Education is about
PEOPLE, and I respect even those I do not agree with!
Bruce
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1152.3 ---------------
From: BruceyJ aol.com
Subject: Re: Experimental School is in Jeopardy
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:12:29 EST
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In einer eMail vom 21.03.99 01:51:23 (MEZ) Mitteleurop”ische Zeit schreibt
litvas icu.com:
)
) "Mr. LaRock [Board of Ed spokesman] cited West Side Community's mediocre
) performance on the citywide third- and fourth-grade reading tests last
) spring as one of the school's primary failures. Just 33 percent of the
) students read at or above grade level; the citywide average is 51 percent."
I am not defending the WE figure here, but the citywide average is rather
remarkable. ASSUMING the normal WE curriculum IS taught at West Side ( I have
no idea), then the "normal" reading ability would be achieved a year or 2
later; if waldorrf start later, it is to be expected that the kids wont be
perfect readers as soon. The ratio 33% to 51% strikes me as pretty good in the
circumstances.
My aunt was always horrified at the reading of my nephews until adout class 4
or 5, then she saw that they were, as she is "normal"!
Bruce
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1152.4 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Questions for a Libertarian (Ezra)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:09:53 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
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charset="iso-8859-1"
) -----Original Message-----
) From: Alan S. Fine MD
) spiritual entity of some sort, but as a part of reality. In fact (and
) correct me if I am wrong) the dissolution of the barriers between the
) spiritual and material worlds is one of the major facets of
) anthroposophy.
) Because to them it is all one reality, anthroposophists have
) little context
) from which to distinguish when they are teaching AP and how
) much. Lack of
) disclosure is not so much an act of deliberate deception as much as a
) product of the mind set of the anthroposophists themselves.
Alan,
You know anthroposophy much better than I. Is it a question of two
different
"worlds" which all anthroposophists believe are not separate? Or is it the
notion that the behaviors one associates with a spiritual life ought to be
practiced within all circumstances?
Bob
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1152.5 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Responses from a Libertine (g)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:09:53 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
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) -----Original Message-----
) From: Dan Dugan [mailto:dan dandugan.com]
)
) I was given a course in killer Karate by the U.S. Army in 1965. It was
) completely de-spiritualized. Breath control and all, but no bowing or
) reverence, no chi, just the functional activities.
)
) If there was such a thing as a Waldorf method without
) Anthroposophy, it
) could be done that way.
This is an analogy that I've kicked around with you and others on
this list before, and I think it reflects on an essential element of the
PLANS lawsuit.
Refining the analysis a bit further, if, for the sake of argument,
anthroposophy is a religion, and we know that Waldorf Education is stems
from the same roots as anthroposophy, it seems that Dan and I would both
agree that WE would be okay in the public schools.
The questions which would have to be addressed by the Court might
include "**Can** a Waldorf method be taught without anthroposophy?" -- and
-- "Even if it can be, **is** it taught without anthroposophy in actual
practice?"
I confess a lack of general expertise to answer these questions,
other than limited personal experience as a Waldorf parent at one private
school which would tend to support affirmative answers to both questions.
We have on this list a recently commenced thread on the topic of
Waldorf Without Anthroposophy. I will follow it with interest.
Bob
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1152.6 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf without anthroposphy
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:45:16 -0700
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In-Reply-To: (199903220024.QAA03798 lists1.best.com)
On 21 Mar 99, at 19:23, WaldorfEdu aol.com wrote:
) Dan knows quite well (and has known for at least 3 years) the following: 1
) Courses were established at a university in the UK on the Waldorf approach
) to education (without anthroposophy) 2 Courses were established at San
) Diego State University (and other universities in southern California on
) the Waldorf approach to education (without anthroposophy) Both sets of
) courses were extremely popular 3 I've been teaching teachers in the public
) school system (for the last 30 years) about the approach (without
) anthroposophy) 4 I've given presentations/workshops on the Waldorf
) approach (without anthroposophy) at some of the most prestigious education
) conferences in the world (ASCD, NCSS, NAESP, NAMS etc. etc.) 5 I've
) coauthored with my wife many many Teaching Packs (based on the Waldorf
) approach but without anthroposophy) and sold by the biggest distributor of
) history/social studies material in the USA that were very popular in
) California until PLANS became known.
There you have it. Not only is it possible to use the Waldorf
approach without anthroposophy, but this fellow was doing it, and
teaching it. Unfortunately, it appears that there was a great deal of
resistance to this from folks involved with anthroposophy. I'm not
sure what PLANS has done to make Mollet's work more difficult,
other than to publicize the connection between anthroposophy
(which both Dugan and Mollet consider a religion) and Waldorf
educational methods.
) What Dan and PLANS has done is to see that tens of thousands of
) young children who would have been taught through an artistic approach
) (they would have been absorbed information through stories, drama and art
) and craft activities) have been denied such opportunities - enough said!!
No, I don't think enough was said. How has PLANS accomplished
this?
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"There is a right and a wrong in the Universe and
that distinction is not difficult to make." - Superman
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1152.7 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: RE: Questions for a Libertarian (Ezra)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:08:50 -0700
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In-Reply-To: (199903221607.IAA12149 lists1.best.com)
On 22 Mar 99, at 11:09, Tolz, Robert wrote:
) ) From: Alan S. Fine MD
) ) spiritual entity of some sort, but as a part of reality. In fact (and
) ) correct me if I am wrong) the dissolution of the barriers between the
) ) spiritual and material worlds is one of the major facets of
) ) anthroposophy. Because to them it is all one reality, anthroposophists
) ) have little context from which to distinguish when they are teaching AP
) ) and how much. Lack of disclosure is not so much an act of deliberate
) ) deception as much as a product of the mind set of the anthroposophists
) ) themselves.
)
) Alan,
) You know anthroposophy much better than I. Is it a question of two
) different
) "worlds" which all anthroposophists believe are not separate? Or is it
) the notion that the behaviors one associates with a spiritual life ought
) to be practiced within all circumstances?
Bob, I think it's the former. That is, our actions in the physical
world may effect the etheric bodies of those around us, and thus
have spiritual effects beyond the obvious, physical effects. And
vice versa. There are many beings which exist on the spiritual
plane, of various different types, some of which exist to help us
spiritually, while the job of others is to hinder us spiritually. Those
who hinder our development include Lucifer, who gives us the
illusion of enlightenment so that we become overly enamored with
our own spirituality, and Ahriman, who tempts us with physical
things. They directly affect us in the physical world from the
spiritual plane.
Moreover, by Anthroposophical spiritual practices, we can learn to
read the Akashic Record and get knowledge of the physical world,
including its history. So Steiner, who read the Akashic record
better than anybody, and with a clearer, more objective mind, made
pronouncements on various topics related to physical science.
Those pronouncements may be seen not as Anthroposophy per
se, but as facts about the physical world.
Steiner, of course, said not to take what he said as fact without
checking it out for yourself. But if he read the Akashic record more
accurately and objectively than you can, and you can't access the
knowledge about which he spoke, the anthroposophist must either
accept that Steiner spoke the truth, or believe that he was lying or
deluded. So many anthroposophists believe that Steiner's
pronouncements about the physical world were obtained through
the scientific study of the Akashic record, and are true facts about
the way things work.
If the teacher's main intellectual activity consists of talking with
other anthroposophists, and the teacher has little exposure to
mainstream scientific thought, I think it's easy for the teacher to
blur the distinction between anthroposophy and science, and teach
the kind of things we've read about on this list. I don't think that all
Waldorf teachers do that, though, and perhaps most Waldorf
teachers are aware of the distinction, and avoid teaching
anthroposophical "facts" as part of their curriculum.
But I'm no anthroposophist, and my take on it might be off base.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"There is a right and a wrong in the Universe and
that distinction is not difficult to make." - Superman
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1152.8 ---------------
From: Tarjei Straume (tastraum online.no)
Subject: Re: Waldorf without anthroposphy
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:14:10 +0100
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References: (199903220024.QAA03798 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903221647.IAA06692 lists1.best.com)
Steve Premo wrote:
)I'm not sure what PLANS has done to make Mollet's work more difficult,
)other than to publicize the connection between anthroposophy (which both
)Dugan )and Mollet consider a religion) and Waldorf educational methods.
Don't be naÔve. PLANS has created a public pillory for Rudolf Steiner,
Waldorf education and anthroposophy where it is claimed that anyone who
accepts the theosophical-anthroposophical concept of evolution is in tacit
agreement with racism and anti-semitism, and that if this is not
recognized, it is because the teachers are brainwashed. We are supposed to
be the dimwitted followers of Nazi war criminal Alfred Rosenberg. That is
enough to make Mollett's work very difficult indeed, and to scare
prospective parents away from Waldorf.
Tarjei
http://www.uncletaz.com/
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1152.9 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: The Clarity Impulse
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:19:00 -0700
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On 21 Mar 99, at 19:54, Ezra Beeman wrote:
) Michael Kopp wrote:
)
) ) )
) ) )Can I be imprecise? Yes. Does this imprecision indicate I am
) ) )illiterate? Nope.
) )
) ) If one is consistenly imprecise, that is functional illiteracy. I think
) ) most educators and language scholars would agree with this definition.
)
) Are all poets illiterate then?I think functional illiteracy goes way
) beyond consistent imprecision. How do you feel about literature rich in
) metaphor? Allegories?
Ezra, if you want to write poetry of literature, go for it. If you want
to participate in discussions in a meaningful way, it helps to be
precise and clear about what you say.
To tell you the truth, from time to time I consider putting your posts
in a kill file because it's not worth my time to read stuff that is
unclear or ambiguous. Then you post something interesting and
understandable, and I decide to keep reading your posts for now.
In my job, which consists largely of reading and analyzing stuff
written by lawyers, I've come to see that the ability to write clearly,
simply, and unambiguously is an uncommon talent, and one that
reflects more care and intelligence than the ability to write
metaphorically and ambiguously.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"There is a right and a wrong in the Universe and
that distinction is not difficult to make." - Superman
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1152.10 ---------------
From: RSSNYC aol.com
Subject: Re: Clarity on Westide School
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:43:43 EST
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As a member of the college of teachers at the Rudolf Steiner School, the only
Waldorf school in New York City, I read with great interest the article on the
Westside Community School. The article is misleading in that it states the
public school using Waldorf-inspired methods is "in jeopardy of closing." In
fact, the district superintendent has already notified the school that it
_will_ close at the end of next school year.
While I applaud the efforts of any teachers who want to join in making a
difference for underprivileged children in the inner city, I am no fan of
public Waldorf schools and I find Waldorf-inspired programs potentially
problematic. In the case of the Westside Community School, however, it is
unfortunate that reading test scores are being used as the criteria for the
closing. The third and fourth graders who were tested as part of a city-wide
program were a poor test sample. The school is only four years old, and those
tested only benefited from a phasing-in of Waldorf techniques from anywhere
between six and eighteen months before taking their tests. This year's third
graders will offer the first legitimate reflection of the Waldorf-inspired
program, and the results will come too late to change anything.
Some on this list will want to draw the conclusion that the situation at
Westside illustrates an inability to teach reading effectively. Our fourth
graders have taken the state-wide PEP tests for years, and have done quite
well. Yes, the demographics are different, but we have our share of success
with underprivileged children. Of course, it is impossible to compare the
Westside School's program to that of a real Waldorf school. The teachers at
Westside have always been clear that they are borrowing Waldorf-inspired
techniques and using some of them in their classrooms (this is particularly
important to me, as I have been very critical of public school teachers in
other cities who have tried to fashion "public Waldorf schools").
The great sadness is that these children and their parents, who have been very
enthusiastic about Westside, will have to find new schools in a system that is
a virtual cesspool.
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1152 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1153 --------------
001 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Questions for a Libertarian (Ezra)
002 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Waldorf without anthroposphy
003 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: The Clarity Impulse
004 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Recommended Speech
005 - BruceyJ aol.com - Re: spacing
006 - RSSNYC aol.com - Re: Oops! Forgot to leave my name.
007 - MomOf2Gals aol.com - Baltimore school
008 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Baltimore school
009 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: Baltimore school
010 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - My Waldorfian alma mater in the news
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1153.1 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Questions for a Libertarian (Ezra)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:01:47 -0500
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) -----Original Message-----
) From: Steve Premo [mailto:premo cruzio.com]
Thanks for your description of the supposed collision, or the lack
of a barrier, between the spiritual and material worlds of the
anthroposophist. I'll be interested in how the anthroposophists on the list
respond.
) spiritually. Those
) who hinder our development include Lucifer, who gives us the
) illusion of enlightenment so that we become overly enamored with
) our own spirituality....
It reminds me of the story of the Buddhist novice who came to his
master complaining that he was always bothered by distractions in his
meditation and asking for assistance. The master told him just to keep
meditating and the distractions would go away. Repeatedly, the novice would
come back with the same complaint and the master would keep giving the same
advice: just keep meditating and they'll go away. One day, the novice
rushed into the master's quarters and proclaimed a great enlightenment. He
said that during meditation a vision of the Buddha came to him, floating
above the ground, bathed in a warm glow which the novice could feel almost
physically. The novice asked what he should do, and the master told him to
keep meditating and the image would go away.
Sorry for the levity (or was that levitation?).
Bob
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1153.2 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Waldorf without anthroposphy
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 10:51:01 -0500
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References: (199903221647.IAA06692 lists1.best.com)
In this day and age, such proof of denial might constitute a winning civil
lawsuit for damages.
e
Steve Premo wrote:
) ) What Dan and PLANS has done is to see that tens of thousands of
) ) young children who would have been taught through an artistic approach
) ) (they would have been absorbed information through stories, drama and art
) ) and craft activities) have been denied such opportunities - enough said!!
)
) No, I don't think enough was said. How has PLANS accomplished
) this?
)
) Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
) "There is a right and a wrong in the Universe and
) that distinction is not difficult to make." - Superman
) http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1153.3 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: The Clarity Impulse
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 10:47:12 -0500
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I understand your frustration, and I do not mean to make people miserable.
Writing clearly and precisely is hard work for me, requiring countless
iterations of refinement and focus in both cognition and expression. I perform
this process at work all day, every day, in both code and prose. So mustering
additional effort in the evening, or as an aside, is an aggregated challenge (no
bad pun intended.)
I agree this forum needs clarity and precision, but I disagree with the degree
demanded, and in the overall effect.
Human expression is not always neat and precise, but reflects the complexity of
the natural world. Moreover, each step taken in the direction of exactitude is
a step away from context. (think of an abstraction continuum, and the effect on
meaning as you progress through the interval) I really believe this. You take
precision to its limit and you lose meaning. Thus writing and communicating is
a balancing act, and you give and take depending on the circumstance and desired
effect.
I will do my best to communicate given my constraints, and that is all I will
ever promise. Hopefully this is enough to avoid the dreaded kill file. (grin)
e
PS Metaphor does not in anyway imply ambiguity, the fact I may be the latter and
champion the former should in no way confuse the two notions. (Practice may
vary)
Steve Premo wrote:
) To tell you the truth, from time to time I consider putting your posts
) in a kill file because it's not worth my time to read stuff that is
) unclear or ambiguous. Then you post something interesting and
) understandable, and I decide to keep reading your posts for now.
)
) In my job, which consists largely of reading and analyzing stuff
) written by lawyers, I've come to see that the ability to write clearly,
) simply, and unambiguously is an uncommon talent, and one that
) reflects more care and intelligence than the ability to write
) metaphorically and ambiguously.
)
) Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
) "There is a right and a wrong in the Universe and
) that distinction is not difficult to make." - Superman
) http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1153.4 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Recommended Speech
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:19:53 -0500
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He is being vague. (g)
e
BruceyJ aol.com wrote:
) ) Take your pick, mix and match, or you can have the whole bundle at a
) ) discount price!
) )
)
) OK - but sometimes it IS helpful to know WHO you are aiming your criticism at.
)
) Bruce
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1153.5 ---------------
From: BruceyJ aol.com
Subject: Re: spacing
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:53:51 EST
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In einer eMail vom 21.03.99 03:07:36 (MEZ) Mitteleurop”ische Zeit schreibt
tastraum online.no:
) Bruce is sloppy.
Tarjei wrote the above, I write what follows:
I love you too
Bruce
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1153.6 ---------------
From: RSSNYC aol.com
Subject: Re: Oops! Forgot to leave my name.
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:45:37 EST
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Forgive me. I recently posted a message entitled "Clarity on Westside School"
and neglected to sign my name to it.
Robert Dandrew
Director of Development
Rudolf Steiner School
rssnyc aol.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1153.7 ---------------
From: MomOf2Gals aol.com
Subject: Baltimore school
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:50:22 EST
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Hi everyone!
Just want to introduce myself. My name is Lisa, and I have two daughters at
the Waldorf School of Baltimore -- one is in the 3rd Grade and the other is in
the three-mornings-a-week Children's Garden class. My older daughter has been
attending WSB since she was four years old. The younger girl started last year
at age 3.
I am interested in this list, especially the description of it as a
discussion of Waldorf schools ``outside the cult of Rudolf Steiner.'' Can
anyone tell me what, specifically, is meant by that? I am assuming that it
means for parents and others who do not consider themselves anthropops, who
are using the school and its methadology to get their child/children a very
good education, without ``buying into'' Steiner's view on everything.
I wonder, though, if it is possible to be completely ``outside the cult'' of
anthroposophy if we are to understand truly what is happening in the
classrooms of a Waldorf school? I remember early on in my first daughter's
enrollment, one father told me that the school promoted a form of ``esoteric
Christianity'' that most parents did not realize was part of the education
there. Now that I look at what is taught, and how, I see what he means.
There are many other things that I do not understand, and I am not sure I can
unless I study my Steiner! For instance, my 3rd grader told me that the
children are allowed to use their black beeswax crayon ONLY TO DRAW LIVING
THINGS -- for instance, for a drawing of someone's hair, etc. They CANNOT use
black to draw the tires of a car, etc. I do not know why, but I am sure if I
asked my child's teacher, the answer would have something to do with Steiner's
philosophy on the meaning (spiritual) of color, etc.
These are just some random thoughts I had. I hope they are appropriate for
this list. I am in no way a real, authentic anthropop, but I AM a Waldorf
parent interested in knowing, in greater depth, about the education my child
is receiving. COMMEBTS, THOUGHTS, ADVICE appreciated!
Lisa
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1153.8 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Baltimore school
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 13:57:26 -0500
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The black crayons were removed from our boxes until probably around junior high.
We were not even given crayons, per se, but block wax instruments in the early grades
(much more difficult to master than rounded crayons -- who knows the value, but trust me,
drawing like the comic books with 1X2X.5" blocks is not easy feat.)
When asked why we didn't have black implements, we were told it is because there is no
black in nature ('cept fer black holes and some rock formations (carbon based) I guess
(g)). The absence of color certainly is unusual. I think a teacher once told me if I
wanted to draw something I found in nature and it was black, I could use the color.
Using black seemed to be cheating one's perceptive abilities. (- My Opinion.
If you wanted to make something dark, or nearly black we used a muddy mixture of yellow,
blue and red to achieve the effect. Is this valuable, who knows.
My perceptions and expressions of color in art differ from my peers, as they differed
from my classmates. Is this a result of massaging the (artistic) process? Is it
worthwhile? Who knows. I certainly appreciate the ability to render in two dimensions (I
nearly went to art school).
I think my (WE derived) sense of aesthetics is very conventional and very romantic,
cognitively speaking. If I were to describe my sense of the aesthetic, it would run
something like Ayn Rand's "Romantic Manifesto".
One the other hand, one of my classmates is very avant garde in his taste and expression,
and attended the SFO art school (a relatively modern institution, in my opinion). So it
seems WE does not produce artistic automatons, although many on this list believe this is
the case.
e
MomOf2Gals aol.com wrote:
) There are many other things that I do not understand, and I am not sure I can
) unless I study my Steiner! For instance, my 3rd grader told me that the
) children are allowed to use their black beeswax crayon ONLY TO DRAW LIVING
) THINGS -- for instance, for a drawing of someone's hair, etc. They CANNOT use
) black to draw the tires of a car, etc. I do not know why, but I am sure if I
) asked my child's teacher, the answer would have something to do with Steiner's
) philosophy on the meaning (spiritual) of color, etc.
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1153.9 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Baltimore school
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:10:05 -0700
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In-Reply-To: (199903222053.MAA27523 lists1.best.com)
Welcome, Lisa!
On 22 Mar 99, at 15:50, MomOf2Gals aol.com wrote:
) I am interested in this list, especially the description of it as a
) discussion of Waldorf schools ``outside the cult of Rudolf Steiner.'' Can
) anyone tell me what, specifically, is meant by that? I am assuming that it
) means for parents and others who do not consider themselves anthropops,
) who are using the school and its methadology to get their child/children a
) very good education, without ``buying into'' Steiner's view on everything.
Well, yes, and also for former Waldorf parents, anthroposophists,
Waldorf teachers, Waldorf graduates, and anyone else who would
would like to discuss Waldorf education from a critical perspective.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"There is a right and a wrong in the Universe and
that distinction is not difficult to make." - Superman
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1153.10 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: My Waldorfian alma mater in the news
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:37:01 -0500
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Story is warmly indicative of WE results. Seems spelling is still a problem...
e
PS In a school of 100+, everyone over 6" is drafted. (grin)
PPS I found 'Paste as Quote' in the edit menu of the 4.51 Netscape mail client.
*BLISS* Tell me if it doesn't wrap to 80 characters, or exhibits other monkey
business (except grammer(g)). Otherwise, I will consider the issue resolved.
(At least on my machines running 4.51)
) They're going wacko over Waldorf: LaMere has little school creating big
) Waves
)
)
) By Joe Davidson
) Bee Staff Writer
) (Published March 11, 1999)
)
) Paul LaMere didn't hesitate with the car keys. This wasn't a trip for the van or the old
) sedan because Tuesday clearly wasn't an ordinary trek to the gym.
)
) LaMere aired out the 1989 jet-black Corvette at virtual G-force speed down Highway 50,
) clutching the wheel with both hands, what's left of his hair dancing in the wind. Then
) again, LaMere could operate a unicycle at warp speed.
)
) Be it on the open road, in conversation or when he's coaching his Sacramento Waldorf
) girls' basketball team, the best coach heading the best program you've never heard of is
) perpetual motion: Using body English to help a three-pointer beat the buzzer or practically
) wiggling out of his suit begging for a better call from the officials.
)
) "Oh, I'm a crazy man," said LaMere, a 50-year-old but a juvenile at heart. "This whole
) season is a kick in the pants. Maybe this spring I'll do the Battle Mountain thing in
) Nevada, where you can see how fast your 'Vette can go on a straightaway."
)
) It seems only fitting that LaMere's favorite set of wheels are as old as the very program
) he's nurtured from scratch, one he's polished into something similarly spectacular.
)
) You want supreme performance? Try the Waves' 92-0 mark in league play this decade, a
) first-time Sac-Joaquin Section championship at Arco Arena on Saturday after a regular
) season that included wins over large-school notables such as Natomas and Mira Loma,
) and a first-time Northern California playoff win on Tuesday.
)
) Waldorf is mired in the land of Division V athletics, the farthest outpost of prep sports.
) There are 102 students at the school, about as many as the Elk Grove football team
) suited up on Friday nights.
)
) But the Waves are a pedal-to-the-metal outfit that mirrors its coach, and it's a program
) that has broken free from their overshadowed depths and their small-school compatriots
) to bask in the limelight of the big time.
)
) By beating Etna in overtime Tuesday, Waldorf (33-2) earned another ticket to unchartered
) waters. They will play at Pinewood of Los Altos, the state's top-ranked Division V team. A
) win there would send shock waves through the state.
)
) It could also mark the last game for senior cornerstones Beth Dorso, Willow Emyrs,
) Vanessa Clausett and Aimee Varner, who grew up in the Waldorf system and grow
) teary-eyed at the thought of leaving their school behind come June graduation.
)
) And it could be the end of LaMere.
)
) He's dropped hints for the last six years that he was ready to ride off into the sunset, so
) to speak, but the parents of his players won't have it.
)
) They are the backbone to Waldorf, and they line up to praise the efforts of their beloved
) coach, calling him everything from "miracle worker" to "genius."
)
) These parents, such as Mike and Sherry Dorso, live for Waldorf. They're on campus
) almost as much as their daughters. They sell tickets before games, mop floors after the
) games and raise funds like mad on the weekends for team retreats, or for the splashy $2
) million gym/theater they now call home.
)
) Waldorf spent a lifetime on the road, experiencing Division V life to the fullest in bandbox
) holes where the student body would jump up and down on the stage to make the
) backboard sway during opponents' free-throw attempts. Or places so small where diving
) for a loose ball out of bounds ran the risk of hitting a wall, or the fans lined up against it.
)
) Now Waldorf's spacious confines serve as an example of how to build a top-notch facility
) -- at any level.
)
) So are the teams that use the facility. Waldorf teenagers make up some of the best
) drama and artists in the valley, honor students who are encouraged to take the most
) difficult courses in math and science and to dabble in fencing and wall-climbing.
)
) And these Waves are the home to no-cut policy. If a person can bounce a ball, they can
) play for Waldorf.
)
) "Sports have worked wonders for so many kids here," said Barbara Stern, a school
) counselor. "We prescribe basketball. We've had kids come into high school with no
) focus. They learn to be disciplined, and their morale just soars."
)
) It used to be that the boys' basketball team walked across campus with an extra bounce
) in their step. The program was formed in the mid-1980s by Athletic Director Dean Stark,
) who built a power in a short time like his friend LaMere. But this winter, the boys took a
) back seat to their more accomplished sisters.
)
) Still, members of the boys' team attend games, and they do so topless, jumping in the
) front row, bearing their mascot's letters even if they can't always spell.
)
) "Tuesday, the guys sat in the wrong order, so instead of 'W-A-V-E-S' it was 'S-E-V-A-W,'
) " LaMere said. "Yep, we're dyslexic here."
)
) Coaching at Waldorf seems to be a contradiction for LaMere. He said he operates in a
) fantasy land, a 22-acre spread dotted with redwoods, weeping willows and ivy, tucked
) away from the hustle and bustle of Fair Oaks and Sunrise. Here, there is no shortage of
) motivation or funds, where ineligibility is a foreign word.
)
) And every time LaMere takes the 'Vette down Bannister Road, he rides the brakes to
) ensure the turkeys, deer or squirrels that frequent the grounds don't become part of the
) grill.
)
) This isn't a high school, one is led to believe. It's a bloomin' zoo, completely void of graffiti,
) speed bumps, traffic jams, loud music and food wrappers blowing in the wind that seem
) to characterize so many public schools.
)
) "This really is a coaching heaven," LaMere said.
)
) LaMere knew his program had arrived when the looks of sadness of the players belonged
) to the other team. His first team in 1989 lost its season opener to Burbank 109-13, with
) all the Waldorf points coming from the free-throw line. He said he drove home that night
) wondering what George Custer must have thought near the end.
)
) "We used to be so bad that the first day we had tryouts, kids were tripping over the
) halfcourt line," LaMere said. "Now we're leading teams 46-0 because we're so much
) better. Now those teams hate us because we're winners."
)
) Another stereotype LaMere is all too proud to challenge is that the Waldorf kid can't play
) beyond their cozy confines of Division V, the latest example being Dorso, a versatile
) swing who owns most of the school's scoring records. Next year, Emmi Connolly will be
) the franchise. A junior forward, Connolly played big down the stretch in the section finals
) and scored six points in overtime to subdue Etna.
)
) All this in between visits to the chiropractor, or what she calls "the back cracker" for
) strained muscles and cracked ribs after crashing headfirst into the bleachers for a loose
) ball.
)
) "People don't think we play well or hard, but we do," Connolly said.
)
) Said Beth Dorso: "Basketball can be such a release. School can be very hard here, and
) we have community-service things and senior projects. It's nice to get out and play. I think
) we're lucky."
)
) Building Waldorf into such premier status didn't come without a price for LaMere. The long
) hours, the road trips, the summer camps cost him his marriage.
)
) But the prankster coach insists he still has the things he holds dear. He still has his
) immediate family, including son Jeff, a top assistant for the Duke men's basketball
) program. And he has his 'Vette.
)
) "She got the gold mine, I got the car and I'll always have this team and these memories,"
) LaMere said. "Being a Wave is special right now."
)
)
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1153 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1154 --------------
001 - "Luke Schelly" (lschelly - RE:Responses from a Libertine (g)
002 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Responses from a Libertine (g)
003 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Baltimore school
004 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Baltimore school
005 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - RE: Responses from a Libertine (g)
006 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - Re: My Waldorfian alma mater in the news
007 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Ron Miller's article on web site
008 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - Re: Ron Miller's article on web site
009 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: Baltimore school
010 - Tarjei Straume (tastraum - Re: Baltimore school
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1154.1 ---------------
From: "Luke Schelly" (lschelly JackRouse.com)
Subject: RE:Responses from a Libertine (g)
Date: 22 Mar 1999 18:51:19 -0500
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Kevin, you posted;
)A case in point:
)Here in Minneapolis, we had a wanna-be shock jock (Tom Bernard of KQRS for
)those who know the radio market here) who made some racially insensitive
)remarks on the air about the Hmong. The community was outraged, and enough
)people were seriously talking boycott that the sponsors put pressure on the
)radio station (a few canceled their ad spots), and KQRS finally apologized
)and agreed to some other changes. This proved that we do not need
)government regulation of what is acceptable speech on the radio, the
)community is capable of regulating itself.
)In the same vein, the Waldorf Community (WC) *should* denounce any and all
)instances of deceit in any particular WS. This will prove that we don't
)need some truth-in-advertising committee to oversee what gets said when
)parents check into a WS.
1) How does one (or this mythical waldorf community) know when denouncing particular schools or individuals is the proper action? Denouncing deceit *in general* is easy, but applying it to specific people is a act of judgement that I for one am not willing to do without a whole lot of personal experience. And even then I wouldn't be surprised if 50% of others (the other side) denied my rationale.
2) Kevin, which waldorf community are your referring to? The local waldorf community of the particular school or the worldwide collection of independent waldorf schools and all their families? One group (the local one) would certainly be in a position to know more facts and circumstances and history than the other. (FWIW, your 'case in point' is one that shows the local community did its job to correct the injustices not any larger outside community.)
Do you think that other schools or other parents in far away places should give any credibility to any party in a dispute when they cannot possibly know the circumstances surrounding it? Expressing any opinion at all might be a possible disservice to one or the other parties. Personally, I have more than enough things to do at our own independent school without having to add to my list figuring out whether or not Dugan and Kopp et al are correct or incorrect on the facts, innuendos, and implications of their own problems.
D & K both know that because waldorf schools are a loosely networked worldwide association of independent schools, each with varying degrees of interconnectedness with other schools, D & K can generalize what they want to about their own problems and foist it upon the general public as if it were true of most of the schools, without any fear of any central body to "officially" refute their claims. Suggesting that a Waldorf Community (in the larger worldwide sense) be formed to admonish or denounce schools (could they also denounce parents if they are found to be the ones to blame, Kevin? and what kind of punishment could they exact from these private citizens?) is adding a layer of authoriatarianism on your part. (On the other hand) What this also means for the rest of the people working in waldorf education is that we are always in jeopardy of being lumped together with others who are not doing as good a job as they should (in the eyes of their critics) and of course being!
!
lumped together with those doing better than we are (coat tails). But as a group (my acquaintances and I, in our locality), we believe more strongly in another groups right to make free choices of action than in our need to have control over the choices of others in what could easily be seen as a developing approach to intentional communities. (e.g. I/we don't have all the answers about how best to do this so what gives us the right to foist our views on someone else without their request.) FWIW, it also means people like Dan and Micheal can say what they will about waldorf schools in general and when there is no reply from a nonexistent hierarchy they then can claim they hit the mark. When in fact general claims about waldorf can only be refuted by the individual circumstances of the participants of this list. (Of course the individual refutations don't show up on the Plans website, just the generalized complaints.) So everyone else in WE is potentially unfairly judged !
!
against the generalizing prejudices of Dan and the PLANS people.
If I may digress (even further). If a particular worldview or philosophy is one of letting people/groups develop as an intentional community on their own terms and to let them make their mistakes and make their advances in a way that is particular to the dynamics of that group; then it would also not be in that worldview to desire to step in and tell others what they should do. It would be more in keeping with that worldview to be ready and willing to assist the group with the problems when that group decides/recognizes that it needs the help. The *learning* that: help will freely come, to the best of other peoples abilities, when it is asked for, is a lesson of human relationships in intentional communities that cannot be explained. It must be eperienced and learned. Also, IMHO, the experience of: the attitude of the request for assistance will most likely be reflected in the attitude of assistance returned, must also be experienced.
For instance, if Micheal Kopp had come to this wider waldorf network with a request for assistance in helping to deal with his school that was not as angry and filled with conclusions as it appeared to be, he *may* have received a different kind of response. The *appearance* (to me, and maybe others) that he brought his anger for some individuals of his local school to everyone involved in waldorf education may be seen to be mirrored back at him in the way people related to him. Noting the strong negative emotions involved already is a huge red flag for anyone to even think about stepping in to see what is going on, if requested to do so. It appears as a sign of a problem that might require a significant amount of investment in time and energy with little hope of a satisfactory resolution. I would not be surprised if there was little interest (on the part of people who believe in the freedom of action of other groups) in getting to know what has happened there and what t!
!
he school is doing or not doing. Not only is it a different waldorf school and parent body, but it is also in a different country with potentially different laws governing the administering of education and possibly a different attitude towards government and education and freedom. Given all these variables, I would not feel justified in publicly denouncing anything that was reported or alleged to have happened in such an instance for fear of disrespecting a possible innocent party. You, of course, may feel differently, but don't judge my action or inaction through your preferences.
Luke
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1154.2 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Responses from a Libertine (g)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:44:02 -0500
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References: (199903222353.PAA00204 lists1.best.com)
Personally, I wish 'the community' (or combine, as Ken Kesey might say) would denounce my allegation WE produces shining examples of humanity. They probably won't, but what does it 'prove'?
Another problem with your analogy is the fact it is not an industry-group-type example (which might loosely fit with integrated notions of WE/AS/RS), but rather a single person in a single radio station.
If you could produce a statement from the overlord radio industry group (or an analogue) decrying the act, it might be a more pertinent example. Since there are many such groups, it is hard to decide which one to make apologize. Do they all need to apologize for this obviously one gunman's activities? Or is this behavior inherent to Radio, thus demanding industry wide mobilization? Should they allow this guy, or his incident to dominate the industry's entire agenda?
Heavy handed governance is no better than heavy handed regulation.
e
) Kevin, you posted;
)
) )A case in point:
) )Here in Minneapolis, we had a wanna-be shock jock (Tom Bernard of KQRS for
) )those who know the radio market here) who made some racially insensitive
) )remarks on the air about the Hmong. The community was outraged, and enough
) )people were seriously talking boycott that the sponsors put pressure on the
) )radio station (a few canceled their ad spots), and KQRS finally apologized
) )and agreed to some other changes. This proved that we do not need
) )government regulation of what is acceptable speech on the radio, the
) )community is capable of regulating itself.
)
) )In the same vein, the Waldorf Community (WC) *should* denounce any and all
) )instances of deceit in any particular WS. This will prove that we don't
) )need some truth-in-advertising committee to oversee what gets said when
) )parents check into a WS.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1154.3 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Baltimore school
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:42:27 +0100
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Steve, you wrote:
) Well, yes, and also for former Waldorf parents, anthroposophists,
) Waldorf teachers, Waldorf graduates, and anyone else who would
) would like to discuss Waldorf education from a critical perspective.
Maybe Dan, as moderator of the "waldorf-critics" E-mail Mailing List
agrees with you.
But after a discussion on another list, on the purpose of that list, I
have a slightly bad conscience about participating on this list as what
Dan actually describes as the purpose of the list is for it to be a "A
networking resource for parents, teachers, school boards and reporters
interested in Waldorf education, as viewed from outside the cult of
Rudolf Steiner."
I would take that as meaning that it is meant to be a source of
information about Waldorf education
received by
- parents of children (prospective or actual), teachers and school
boards of Waldorf or non-Waldorf schools, and reporters and
given,
- _not_ by people who _do_ look at WE as participants in "the cult of
Rudolf Steiner", probably meant to say as "anthroposophists" in some
sense, but by
- people who _do not_ look at WE from "inside" anthroposophy, but who
describe WE out of a perspective of looking at anthroposophy as a "cult
of Rudolf Steiner"
So, taken literally, the purpose of the list, as I understand it, does
not include or welcome "anthroposophists" in any sense, defending
anthroposophy, as intended participants of the discussion.
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1154.4 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Baltimore school
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:58:04 -0500
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Yup. But I for one welcome someone capable of debunking Dan and other's AS/RS
claims.
Otherwise, people on the list must blindly accept Dan's gospel truths. Most are
not prepared to read the relevant RS.
There is irony here.
e
Sune Nordwall wrote:
) So, taken literally, the purpose of the list, as I understand it, does
) not include or welcome "anthroposophists" in any sense, defending
) anthroposophy, as intended participants of the discussion.
)
) Sune Nordwall
) Stockholm, Sweden
)
) http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
) - a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
) EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1154.5 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: RE: Responses from a Libertine (g)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:00:23 +1200
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Robert Tolz writes:
) The questions which would have to be addressed by the Court might
)include "**Can** a Waldorf method be taught without anthroposophy?" -- and
)-- "Even if it can be, **is** it taught without anthroposophy in actual
)practice?"
)
) I confess a lack of general expertise to answer these questions,
)other than limited personal experience as a Waldorf parent at one private
)school which would tend to support affirmative answers to both questions.
Far be it for me to suggest that Robert Tolz is hiding something he knows
to be true (Anthroposophy IS in his child's school); or that he is so
clueless that he wouldn't know it if it jumped up and bit him; or that
doeson't WANT to know and doesn't look for it.
Instead, I'll suggest that he doesn't see it because the school teachers
and administrators HIDE it.
For instance, have you ever attended a meeting of the College of Teachers,
Robert? I mean, a regular meeting, where you were not just a guest to be
shown what you wanted to see?
We have heard before on this list about the Anthroposophical "leadership"
of these "Colleges of Teachers" in Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophical (SWA)
schools.
We have heard before on this list about the Anthroposophical "training" of
public school teachers at a Steiner teachers college (some would call it
religious brainwashing).
I am aware, through a third party who wishes to remain anonymous to protect
the teacher in question, of a former SWA teacher who has taken ten years to
even start to free herself of the mind-set that was inculcated in her by
her Anthroposophical colleagues. She has said, for instance, that she
attended meetings where teachers were trained in how to defend SWA against
charges of weirdness.
) We have on this list a recently commenced thread on the topic of
)Waldorf Without Anthroposophy. I will follow it with interest.
)
) Bob
Better yet: why don't you ASK your school's College of Teachers if it is
possible to have Waldorf without Anthroposophy? Why don't you ask to be
allowed to attend a College of Teachers meeting? Why don't you ASK for a
full explanation of the curriculum?
ASK how many members of the faculty are practicing Anthroposophists? ASK
how many of them are members of the Anthroposophical Society?
SHOW your College of Teachers Dan Saykaly's description of SWA, and ask if
it applied to your school. ASK how many of the beliefs and practices he
lists are subscribed to and practiced by your teachers.
Don't just "follow" the thread with interest; get out there and do some
actual research yourself.
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1154.6 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: Re: My Waldorfian alma mater in the news
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:39:34 +1200
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Ezra Beeman wrote about the girls' basketball team at his old Waldorf
school:
[snipped -- but it did wrap properly, Ezra, if I widened my client window]
Been there, done that, as they say in Godzone. And doing it again,
apparently.
My daughter played on our former Steiner school's girls' basketball team
for three of the four years she was there. My son played for the boys' team
for a few years, too.
Now, in her second year away from the school, and back in a state school,
she has been recruited back to her old team, which is short of girls who
want to play basketball. The other girls pleaded with her to come back and
play with them.
I guess I'll have to go along to the games and root for the Steiner kids,
eh?
That is, if I can show my face.
How's that for irony?
Cheers,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1154.7 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Ron Miller's article on web site
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:08:51 -0800
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Ron Miller has given permission to post his article "'Partial Vision' in
Waldorf Education" on the PLANS web site. Look for it at the bottom of the
articles list. He has added a disclaimer that he is a Waldorf supporter,
lest he be tarred with the demonizing brush.
Publication of his article in the Waldorf journal -Renewal- marks a
milestone. To my knowledge it's the first time that serious criticism of
Waldorf has been published in their presses. This is truly a sign of
progress.
Ron has joined the mailing list so he can participate in any discussion
that arises re the article, so please check it out and chime in.
Some excerpts I've noted, with my comments:
"Any educational vision that claims to be a complete, perfected or final
answer to the mysteries of human existence is neglecting, if not actively
repressing, legitimate avenues of development...In my view, the Waldorf
approach is such a "partial vision" because it is based religiously on the
teachings of one man--Rudolf Steiner--who, despite being a gifted mystic
and a brilliant thinker, was clearly influenced and limited by his cultural
and historical context..."
"My primary complaint about the Waldorf movement is that it offers itself
as the universal ideal of education and lacks the self-criticism and
openness to other perspectives that would permit flexibility and
responsiveness to diverse human situations"
The lack of self-criticism has inhibited growth entirely in the Waldorf
movement. There has been no significant change since 1925.
"I agree with educational researcher Mary E. Henry, who also appreciates
Steiner's work from a critical scholarly perspective, that Waldorf
Education represents a concrete effort to build an entirely new culture
rooted in a deeply spiritual, ecological, and organic understanding of life
(Henry, 1993). We desperately need this perspective...As parents, this is
what attracts us to the Waldorf school...At a Waldorf school, our children
will not be treated as future job seekers or savvy consumers or high-tech
warriors in the battle against foreign competition, but as evolving
spiritual beings who seek lives of meaning and beauty and inspiration."
Here Miller appears to have bought into the typical Waldorf bashing of
non-Waldorf education, as if Waldorf people were the only ones with high
ideals. Beware of anybody who wants to "build an entirely new culture"!
What would that culture be like?
"In a Waldorf classroom, the teacher is solidly in command of students'
attention, moment after moment after moment; children have little
opportunity to engage in independent activities or conversations; younger
children, in particular, are not encouraged to question the teacher but to
imitate what he or she models...the lockstep classroom is the aspect of
Waldorf Education that I find most difficult to accept. If Steiner's
intuition were universally valid, than all graduates of free schools,
progressive schools, and even Montessori schools would end up as rather
dysfunctional individuals, and yet this is most certainly not the case..."
The mix of teacher-centered to student-centered activity is a subject for
debate far beyond the Waldorf controversy. Ron, are you aware that in
Waldorf the principle of teachers being ultimate authorities on everything
extends all the way up to the age of puberty?
"So I don't think it is a mistake to send my son to a Waldorf school, where
he will be taught by caring adults who are fully dedicated to nourishing
his unfolding personality."
They wouldn't be doing that at, say, the Catholic school down the road?
"But I wonder whether they could nourish him even more fully by not
choreographing his every move and expecting quite so much imitation and
recitation; I think they would nourish even more facets of his archetypal
energies by allowing some initiative, some freedom of expression, some
exploration of his own peculiar ideas and interests."
Miller has discovered that Waldorf only appears to be progressive; it's
actually arch-conservative. I note that Miller says his son has just
started Waldorf. I hope he will continue to report his observations as he
gains more experience with it.
It will be interesting to see the rebuttals that I'm sure will appear in
the next issue of -Renewal-.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1154.8 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: Re: Ron Miller's article on web site
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 20:33:54 +1200
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Dan Dugan reported on the misgivings of a Waldorf parent expressed in a
Waldorf publication:
)Ron Miller has given permission to post his article "'Partial Vision' in
)Waldorf Education" on the PLANS web site. Look for it at the bottom of the
)articles list. He has added a disclaimer that he is a Waldorf supporter,
)lest he be tarred with the demonizing brush.
)
)Publication of his article in the Waldorf journal -Renewal- marks a
)milestone. To my knowledge it's the first time that serious criticism of
)Waldorf has been published in their presses. This is truly a sign of
)progress.
[snip]
)Miller has discovered that Waldorf only appears to be progressive; it's
)actually arch-conservative. I note that Miller says his son has just
)started Waldorf. I hope he will continue to report his observations as he
)gains more experience with it.
)
)It will be interesting to see the rebuttals that I'm sure will appear in
)the next issue of -Renewal-.
)
)-Dan Dugan
Michael KOPP says:
Gosh, it sounds like the sort of thing that Dugan and Kopp and numerous
other present Waldorf _critics_ were saying when they first started seeing
the cracks in the walls of the oh-so-nicely-decorated walls of the Waldorf
schools their children were attending.
I certainly voiced my first misgivings to my childrens' school in a very
deferential and seeking tone (I know that's hard to believe, but trust me).
It was only the rebuffs to my reasonable approaches that turned me so sour.
I have never -- repeat never -- had a reasonable response from any Steiner/
Waldorf/ Anthroposophical (SWA) person at my children's former schools.
I've had brushoffs and outright insults, and been told the usual "if you
don't like it, you can leave". The best I have ever heard was "Those are
interesting questions you ask". But I've never had any answers. And
there've never been any changes.
I think the reason why SWA people never question, challenge, seek newer
wisdom, or think for themselves (despite Steiner's purported dictum -- or
guru trick -- that they should do so in preference to deference to him) is
another of his "commandments" to his flock. This quote, I gather, is from
Knowledge of Higher Worlds, and it was sent to me by another critic, and I
have not checked the citation for accuracy (I am not a Steiner scholar like
Dan Dugan, nor can I afford a Steiner library). But the quote is meaningful
in this context, regardless of its actual location in Steiner's _oeuvre_ :
"If I meet other people and criticize their weakness, I rob myself
of higher cognitive power. But if I try to enter deeply and lovingly
into another person's good qualities, I gather in that force.
"Disciples of this occult path must always bear in mind the need to
cultivate such admiration and respect. Experienced spiritual
researchers know what strength they gain by always looking for the
good in everything and
*** withholding their critical judgement ***.
"This practice should not simply remain an outer rule of life, but
must take hold of the innermost part of the soul."
--Rudolph Steiner
[My emphasis.]
Withholding critical judgement.
Including the withholding of critical thinking on the part of oneself, and
the withholding of the teaching of critical thinking skills to students.
I have often mentioned how my two children were robbed of their abilities
to think critically by the SWA teaching of "merit in all viewpoints", no
matter how cockamamy they are. This is why my children's work was rarely
given critical marking by the teachers, or corrected when they were wrong.
This rejection of critical thinking is the key to the main problem with
SWA, in my opinion.
It's antithetical to the driver of all of human progress.
I'm glad to see that some people are being allowed to think the
unthinkable, and speak the unspeakable, within the cloisters of Steiner/
Waldorf/ Anthroposophy.
But toleration of the occasional querulous view is a long way from reform.
Waldorf surely -- if not also the cult of Steiner and the religion of
Anthroposophy -- needs a Martin Luther.
How many hundreds of years will it have to wait?
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1154.9 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Baltimore school
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:03:15 -0700
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In-Reply-To: (199903230054.QAA26623 lists1.best.com)
On 23 Mar 99, at 1:42, Sune Nordwall wrote:
) Dan actually describes as the purpose of the list is for it to be a "A
) networking resource for parents, teachers, school boards and reporters
) interested in Waldorf education, as viewed from outside the cult of Rudolf
) Steiner."
)
) So, taken literally, the purpose of the list, as I understand it, does not
) include or welcome "anthroposophists" in any sense, defending
) anthroposophy, as intended participants of the discussion.
I think you're right about that language.
I don't recall seeing the "networking resource" language before. I
thought it was for discussion of Waldorf from a viewpoint outside of
anthroposophy, not just a networking resource for those who share
the same point of view. I have trouble with that language too,
because my interest is in discussing Waldorf and anthroposophy,
not in "networking."
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"There is a right and a wrong in the Universe and
that distinction is not difficult to make." - Superman
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1154.10 ---------------
From: Tarjei Straume (tastraum online.no)
Subject: Re: Baltimore school
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:26:47 +0100
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References: (199903230054.QAA26623 lists1.best.com)
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I recently submitted my contribution to a book project about Rudolf
Steiner. The two men behind the project, an attorney and a journalist, are
both well-known anthroposophists. The interesting thing about this is that
all the contributions are supposed to be from people outside anthroposophy.
From their point of view, I am an outsider, but on this list I am viewed as
a "cult member." Frankly, I really don't care where I'm placed.
Tarjei
)On 23 Mar 99, at 1:42, Sune Nordwall wrote:
)
)) Dan actually describes as the purpose of the list is for it to be a "A
)) networking resource for parents, teachers, school boards and reporters
)) interested in Waldorf education, as viewed from outside the cult of Rudolf
)) Steiner."
))
)) So, taken literally, the purpose of the list, as I understand it, does not
)) include or welcome "anthroposophists" in any sense, defending
)) anthroposophy, as intended participants of the discussion.
)
)I think you're right about that language.
)
)I don't recall seeing the "networking resource" language before. I
)thought it was for discussion of Waldorf from a viewpoint outside of
)anthroposophy, not just a networking resource for those who share
)the same point of view. I have trouble with that language too,
)because my interest is in discussing Waldorf and anthroposophy,
)not in "networking."
)
)
)Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
)"There is a right and a wrong in the Universe and
)that distinction is not difficult to make." - Superman
) http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
http://www.uncletaz.com/
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1154 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1155 --------------
001 - MomOf2Gals aol.com - Re: Baltimore school
002 - BruceyJ aol.com - Re: Baltimore school
003 - BruceyJ aol.com - Re: Responses from a Libertine (g)
004 - BruceyJ aol.com - Re: Baltimore school
005 - BruceyJ aol.com - Re: Ron Miller's article on web site
006 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Ron Miller's article on web site
007 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Responses from a Libertine (g)
008 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Baltimore school
009 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Ron Miller's article on web site
010 - Ron Miller (milleron toge - Re: Ron Miller's article on web site
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1155.1 ---------------
From: MomOf2Gals aol.com
Subject: Re: Baltimore school
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:09:45 EST
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Ezra --
Thanks so much for the explanation about the black crayons. To me, what you
said DOES make sense.
I do not think, in any way, that Waldorf education produces, ``artistic
automatons.'' Who says that? From what I have seen of graduates of our school,
the approaches to art are many and varied, and astoundingly original and
creative. Some of the kids I have talked with (I am a journalist who found
Waldorf education through doing a story on it) went on to other, non-Waldorf
high schools (particularly schools for the arts) and were deeply involved in
the visual arts there. Their teachers had only glowing things to say about the
students' ability to work in a variety of mediums and their wonderful sense of
color and original use of color.
Thanks for writing. I am eager to learn everything I can -- both positive and
negative. I know enough to realize that there is no perfect school or
approach.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1155.2 ---------------
From: BruceyJ aol.com
Subject: Re: Baltimore school
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:55:31 EST
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In einer eMail vom 23.03.99 02:26:21 (MEZ) Mitteleurop”ische Zeit schreibt
Sune.Nordwall home.se:
)
) So, taken literally, the purpose of the list, as I understand it, does
) not include or welcome "anthroposophists" in any sense, defending
) anthroposophy, as intended participants of the discussion.
)
Dan!
I would also appreciate clarification before I remove
Bruce
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1155.3 ---------------
From: BruceyJ aol.com
Subject: Re: Responses from a Libertine (g)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:55:39 EST
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In einer eMail vom 23.03.99 04:28:31 (MEZ) Mitteleurop”ische Zeit schreibt
mkopp xtra.co.nz:
)
) Don't just "follow" the thread with interest; get out there and do some
) actual research yourself.
)
Michael Kopp, all the way from Godzone, wrote the above; I, Bruce Alexander
Rayney Jackson, write what follows (OK Tarjei? (g))
I for once agree totally with Michael. Don't just believe all you read here,
or anywhere else for that matter, get out there and find out for yourself. You
might at last realise that your weak statements about "SWA" have very, very
little, if any foundation.
And, Michael, your favourite person of the turn of the century, a certain Dr.
Rudolf Steiner (who put the S in SWA - well he is famous for that at least)
recommended just that: Don't just believe what I write and say, get in/out
there and find out for yourself (my paraphrasing).
Bruce
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1155.4 ---------------
From: BruceyJ aol.com
Subject: Re: Baltimore school
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:55:24 EST
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Black crayons:
I agree with Ezra that the unnaturalness of black makes it preferable to use
other colours - coal, for instance, is never really BLACK. It (not using
black) makes one realise that what one sees is actually rarely pure chemical
colour (Goethe), but a mixture of the objects chemical colour (its painted
colour), the physical colour which it reflects (shadow, prismatic effects) and
psychological colour (after image, eye imperfections etc). Perspective through
colour (red foreground, blue background) is also helped.
I was teaching my class2 English lesson recently with their class-teacher
present. I told a story about a London bus and a London taxi, and then wanted
to draw them on the blackboard - while I had (in preparation) already decided
that a taxi on a blackboard might be a bit demanding, so was only going to
paint the bus, but the class-teacher, not knowing this, said that he had black
chalk! Sadly I never actually saw it!
Bruce
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1155.5 ---------------
From: BruceyJ aol.com
Subject: Re: Ron Miller's article on web site
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:55:41 EST
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In einer eMail vom 23.03.99 07:45:45 (MEZ) Mitteleurop”ische Zeit schreibt
dan dandugan.com:
Dan Dugan writes, commenting on an excerpt from Ron Miller:
)
) The lack of self-criticism has inhibited growth entirely in the Waldorf
) movement. There has been no significant change since 1925.
)
I, Bruce, respond:
How can you write this Dan? I personally spend a significant amount of my time
looking at what I teach when and how. And what I taught before I started this
process was based on what my predecessor had gleaned from his researches.
You need only to look as far as England to see the unbelievable mess a
committee can make of education. The National Curriculum was produced by so-
called experts, approved by so-called experts, and then teachers (state school
trained teachers in state schools) tried to implement it. At the time (I no
longer live in England) there were so many objections it was incredible. The
system was, at least in certain areas, completely unteachable. Teachers had to
spend a vast amount of their valuable time assessing pupils at specific ages
because "A Committee" had deemed it necessary. The kids were as INPUT to a
process which had EXAM RESULTS as its output. So long as the exam results were
maximised it mattered not a damn what happened inside the processor.
Steiner, through his many remarkable faculties, was able to avoid this
horrendous "rule by committee" nightmare; instead we WE teachers have to be
ruled by committee - there being no head. Here where I teach we are in the
final stages of re-evaluating how we "govern" ourselves with the expert (and
costly!) help of a Dr. Prof. from Kiel. If he produces a sensational result
(and I think he will) I will post it.
Bruce
PS Easter holidays soon - away in Kassel being "refreshed" for a week! Despite
my earlier post I have not removed - I will let ypou know my decision once Dan
has had a chance to respond
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1155.6 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Ron Miller's article on web site
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:06:35 -0500
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) -----Original Message-----
) From: Michael Kopp [mailto:mkopp xtra.co.nz]
) But the quote is meaningful
) in this context, regardless of its actual location in
) Steiner's _oeuvre_ :
)
) "If I meet other people and criticize their weakness, I rob myself
) of higher cognitive power. But if I try to enter deeply
) and lovingly
) into another person's good qualities, I gather in that force.
)
) "Disciples of this occult path must always bear in mind the need to
) cultivate such admiration and respect. Experienced spiritual
) researchers know what strength they gain by always looking for the
) good in everything and
)
) *** withholding their critical judgement ***.
)
) "This practice should not simply remain an outer rule of life, but
) must take hold of the innermost part of the soul."
)
) --Rudolph Steiner
)
) [My emphasis.]
)
) Withholding critical judgement.
)
) Including the withholding of critical thinking on the part of
) oneself, and
) the withholding of the teaching of critical thinking skills
) to students.
I thank Michael for providing the above quotation in full context
rather than just extracting the "critical judgment" phrase all by itself.
It should be readily apparent by reading the entire paragraph that
the phrase is used by Steiner to suggest a behavior and practice which
should be followed in lieu of the human tendency to criticize the weakness
of other people and instead to "to enter deeply and lovingly into another
person's good qualities" and cultivate the habit of admiration and respect.
I see nothing wrong with that. It is one of the concepts I hold quite dear.
The suspension of critical judgment that Steiner is advocating is a
suspension of *condemnation*, not a suspension of thinking. It's a
wonderful sentiment, expresing the idea that we can learn from anyone, even
those we dislike or disagree with, by listening to them with respect. We
could use a little more of that on this list.
Bob
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1155.7 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Responses from a Libertine (g)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:06:35 -0500
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) -----Original Message-----
) From: Michael Kopp [mailto:mkopp xtra.co.nz]
) Far be it for me to suggest that Robert Tolz is hiding
) something he knows
) to be true (Anthroposophy IS in his child's school)
Michael, kindly refrain from implying dishonesty on my part. I
don't take kindly to it. Keep the ad hominems to yourself. They don't
advance the discussion one iota.
Besides, you ought to stick to the issue at hand in the thread, the
possibility of Waldorf without anthroposophy in the *public* schools, not
what happens in the private Waldorf my kids go to. Recall the context of my
comments: Whether or not it is possible for Waldorf to exist in a public
context without anthroposophy.
Whether or not the private school which my kids attend is free from
anthroposophical thought or practice is entirely irrelevant to whether it is
*possible* in a public school, nor, that matter, does your unhappy
experience have the least bearing on the question.
) Better yet: why don't you ASK your school's College of
) Teachers if it is
) possible to have Waldorf without Anthroposophy?
I *have* had that discussion with various teachers at the private
Waldorf school my kids attend. They uniformly question whether it is
possible to have true Waldorf in a public school, or even desirable to make
the attempt.
On the other hand, we have the recent contribution on this list of
Mr. Mollett, who claims that it *is* possible, and who has apparently
devoted substantial time and energy to show that.
Who am I to judge? Let the judge be the judge.
) Don't just "follow" the thread with interest; get out there
) and do some
) actual research yourself.
Sorry, Michael, following the thread with interest is about the most
I have time for. I have higher priorities in my life, all of which have a
more direct bearing on the lives of my family than doing independent
research on the subject of whether Waldorf can be taught in a public school
without anthroposophy.
Some say it can be done. Some say it cannot. I'll let the evidence
be presented here and to the judge in the PLANS case. I'm not going to run
around pursuing it.
Bob
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1155.8 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Baltimore school
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:29:25 -0500
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) -----Original Message-----
) From: Sune Nordwall [mailto:Sune.Nordwall home.se]
) So, taken literally, the purpose of the list, as I understand it, does
) not include or welcome "anthroposophists" in any sense, defending
) anthroposophy, as intended participants of the discussion.
Perhaps so, if you take the list's "mission statement" literally,
but I don't ever recall anyone being dis-invited from the list. Even among
what sometimes appears to be oceans of inflammatory rhetoric, I sometimes
see flashes of respect.
Bob
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1155.9 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Ron Miller's article on web site
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:34:08 -0500
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Michael Kopp wrote:
) "If I meet other people and criticize their weakness, I rob myself
) of higher cognitive power. But if I try to enter deeply and lovingly
) into another person's good qualities, I gather in that force.
)
) "Disciples of this occult path must always bear in mind the need to
) cultivate such admiration and respect. Experienced spiritual
) researchers know what strength they gain by always looking for the
) good in everything and
)
) *** withholding their critical judgement ***.
)
) "This practice should not simply remain an outer rule of life, but
) must take hold of the innermost part of the soul."
)
) --Rudolph Steiner
)
) [My emphasis.]
)
) Withholding critical judgement.
Does RS mean you should first observe without your incumbent critical faculties
(which are your own, assumptions, biases, or intellectual baggage, anyway) in
order to best understand (and therefore profit in learning from) the other?
Endogenous criticism is of a different quality and nature than exogenous
criticism. You are working within the given paradigm in the endogenous case,
and maybe RS believes in the validity of such an approach. I think to approach
learning with one's skeptical guns-a-blazing does nothing but reinforce
preconceptions and assumptions
.
In the passage above, might RS be reproving ad hominem based approaches to
understanding? (This is opposite [in some sense] Nietzsche's methods of
understanding. N holds one needs to understand the political motivations of the
speaker in order to best understand the speech. Such an approach leads naturally
to the formulation of ad hominems, in my opinion.)
) Including the withholding of critical thinking on the part of oneself, and
) the withholding of the teaching of critical thinking skills to students.
Perhaps the soundest criticisms, the most valid, or those derived endogenously.
) I have often mentioned how my two children were robbed of their abilities
) to think critically by the SWA teaching of "merit in all viewpoints", no
) matter how cockamamy they are. This is why my children's work was rarely
) given critical marking by the teachers, or corrected when they were wrong.
You are being vague on the teacher's corrections. Was grammar left uncorrected,
or was non sequitur thinking left uncorrected, or was inconsistent thinking
left uncorrected? Please clarify.
I think it is much easier and more common to rob the young of their ability to
believe, than to rob them of their ability to doubt. (Ask any jaded youth.)
More importantly, in my experience, the use of belief or doubt is more a
function of will than the accuracy of these complimentary cognitive tools.
It is wrong to focus on the tool and neglect the craftsperson. In my opinion.
) This rejection of critical thinking is the key to the main problem with
) SWA, in my opinion.
)
) It's antithetical to the driver of all of human progress.
I disagree, the greatest leaps (Socrates aside) were made by the believers.
e
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1155.10 ---------------
From: Ron Miller (milleron together.net)
Subject: Re: Ron Miller's article on web site
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:29:04 -0500
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Ron Miller here. If my recent article does stir up a discussion among
this group, I'm hoping to take part. For now, I'd like to respond to a
couple of comments that Dan made in introducing me. (By the way, thanks,
Dan, for inviting me.)
Dan: ) Here Miller appears to have bought into the typical Waldorf
bashing of
) non-Waldorf education, as if Waldorf people were the only ones with high
) ideals. Beware of anybody who wants to "build an entirely new culture"!
) What would that culture be like?
RM: First of all, I do not buy into "typical Waldorf bashing..." I am
not an anthroposophist by any means, but I am sympathetic to WE because
in my own intellectual development (completely outside the realm of SWA)
I became attracted to "holistic" ways of thinking in science,
philosophy, social theory and education (for example, I have been
influenced by reading people such as Theodore Roszak, Ken Wilber, Jeremy
Rifkin, Charlene Spretnak, Rupert Sheldrake, and interpreters of Jung,
Whitehead, etc.) and WE is one educational expression of a holistic
worldview. BUT, it is just one possible expression. I do not believe
that Waldorf people are the only ones with high ideals (or answers to
our problems)-- in fact, that attitude is what I criticize them for in
my article. But I do think that the worldview of modernism is facing a
major historical crisis and that we need to begin building what many
call a "postmodern" civilization. What would it be like?-- Dan asks. No
one knows for sure, but here are a few general trends: Political and
economic power would be more decentralized. We would have a more
sustainable relationship to the global ecosystem. We would pay more
attention to "spiritual", artistic, cooperative and communal
possibilities of human development and not be so entirely obsessed with
economic development, material wealth and individual competition. We
would value peace and diversity rather than greed and control. I think,
despite his eccentricities, Steiner was envisioning such a culture and
WE aims toward it. Other alternatives also aim toward it. But clearly
our present educational system does not.
Dan:
) The mix of teacher-centered to student-centered activity is a subject for
) debate far beyond the Waldorf controversy. Ron, are you aware that in
) Waldorf the principle of teachers being ultimate authorities on everything
) extends all the way up to the age of puberty?
)
RM: As I said in the article, I don't approve of giving teachers so much
authority across the board at any age. That's my main complaint about
WE. I'm sure we could have quite a conversation about how much authority
should be given to children at different ages. In my view, a "holistic"
approach does not prescribe the correct relationship between grown-up
and child but allows the relationship to develop organically in the
lived situation. Some children need more guidance/direction than others,
in particular situations, at any age.
Dan: ) (RM): "So I don't think it is a mistake to send my son to a
Waldorf school, where
) he will be taught by caring adults who are fully dedicated to nourishing
) his unfolding personality."
)
) Dan: They wouldn't be doing that at, say, the Catholic school down the road?
RM: Of course they could! Again, my article specifically points out
that WE is one among many alternative methods that can truly nourish
children. I specifically quoted a former Waldorf teacher who says that
it's the teacher's personality, NOT the method, that makes the crucial
difference. However, at least WE is philosophically oriented toward the
child's personal development (even if this is described too
esoterically) and encourages teachers to engage in such a relationship.
Education that is obsessed with competition, economic growth and
standardization in the service of corporate capitalism acts to frustrate
such teaching (though it is still possible in individual cases). Also,
I should point out that Catholic education, while it is certainly
spiritual and moral in orientation, is not exactly supportive of the
"holistic" postmodern culture I think is evolving. (Of course, this
could lead us into a very lengthy discussion!)
Dan: I note that Miller says his son has just
) started Waldorf. I hope he will continue to report his observations as he
) gains more experience with it.
RM: Actually, the article was first written over a year ago, and my son
is now nearing the end of his second year in the Waldorf school. I must
report that he is doing quite well and we are still quite happy with his
teacher, with the school program, and with the community of families
involved in the school. My article was discussed around the school
community and my son's teacher has invited me to talk with him about my
criticisms. (I haven't done so yet, but hope to soon.)
But I should say that my wife and I are more reluctant to send our
younger sons to the school. One of them, in particular, is a very
independent, artistic, sensitive soul who would probably experience the
classroom climate as repressive. My older son does well with the
structure.
Looking forward to more dialogue,
Ron Miller
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1155 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1156 --------------
001 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Baltimore school
002 - SINGERCARP aol.com - critical thinking, was Ron Miller's article on web site
003 - "MICHAEL RONALL" (mronall - Re: Ron Miller's article on web site
004 - "MICHAEL RONALL" (mronall - Re: Ron Miller's article on web site -- concerning esoterica
005 - Jeff Goldstein (Jeffg hou - Ron Miller's article on web site
006 - SINGERCARP aol.com - Re: Baltimore school
007 - ckzfrey (ckzfrey ix.netco - Re: My Waldorfian alma mater in the news
008 - MomOf2Gals aol.com - Anthropops NOT welcome?
009 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: My Waldorfian alma mater in the news
010 - "MICHAEL RONALL" (mronall - Re: My Waldorfian alma mater in the news
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1156.1 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Baltimore school
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 14:19:12 -0500
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References: (199903231857.KAA06214 lists1.best.com)
I suppose, then, your blackboards are not blackish?
e
BruceyJ aol.com wrote:
) I was teaching my class2 English lesson recently with their class-teacher
) present. I told a story about a London bus and a London taxi, and then wanted
) to draw them on the blackboard - while I had (in preparation) already decided
) that a taxi on a blackboard might be a bit demanding, so was only going to
) paint the bus, but the class-teacher, not knowing this, said that he had black
) chalk! Sadly I never actually saw it!
)
) Bruce
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1156.2 ---------------
From: SINGERCARP aol.com
Subject: critical thinking, was Ron Miller's article on web site
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:50:59 EST
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Dear list,
MICHAEL KOPP wrote:
)This quote, I gather, is from
)Knowledge of Higher Worlds, and it was sent to me by another critic, and I
)have not checked the citation for accuracy...
TOM SINGER-CARPENTER:
It is definitely not from Knowledge of the Higher Worlds.
It sounds like a variation of the version in )Guidance in Esoteric Training(,
where Rudolf Steiner describes certain exercises to achieve attributes to
enter
the spiritual world.
These attributes are also described in )An outline of Occult Science( and in
)Knowledge of the Higher Worlds(, both times in a slightly varied way.
In the latter book Steiner calls them SIX ATTRIBUTES WHICH THE
CANDIDATE FOR INITIATION STRIVES TO ACQUIRE.
MICHAEL KOPP:
)...the quote is meaningful
)in this context, regardless of its actual location in Steiner's _oeuvre_ :
"If I meet other people and criticize their weakness, I rob myself
of higher cognitive power. But if I try to enter deeply and lovingly
into another person's good qualities, I gather in that force.
"Disciples of this occult path must always bear in mind the need to
cultivate such admiration and respect. Experienced spiritual
researchers know what strength they gain by always looking for the
good in everything and
*** withholding their critical judgement ***.
"This practice should not simply remain an outer rule of life, but
must take hold of the innermost part of the soul."
--Rudolph Steiner
)[My emphasis.]
)Withholding critical judgement.
)Including the withholding of critical thinking on the part of oneself, and
)the withholding of the teaching of critical thinking skills to students.
TOM SINGER-CARPENTER
STOP! This goes too fast for me (sorry, the Swiss are known for being slow).
Critical judgement. Critical thinking is a different kettle of fish.
I am convinced you and I can think (critically or not) before judging. (see
Bob's
answer below)
MICHAEL KOPP:
)I have often mentioned how my two children were robbed of their abilities
)to think critically by the SWA teaching of "merit in all viewpoints", no
)matter how cockamamy they are. This is why my children's work was rarely
)given critical marking by the teachers, or corrected when they were wrong.
TOM SINGER-CARPENTER
I believe it was exactly as you describe it. Being partially responsible for
training students at a Waldorf Teacher Seminar I have experienced what you
describe in many similar ways when visiting Waldorf Schools.
BUT: I have also seen the opposite and many variations. Keep in mind
that corrections have a completely different effect and pedagogical value
in different age groups. Be that as it may, you can't generalize from
your experience to )the key to the main problem with Waldorf/
Anthroposophy/Rudolf Steiner( here.
MICHAEL KOPP:
)This rejection of critical thinking is the key to the main problem with
)SWA, in my opinion.
)It's antithetical to the driver of all of human progress.
ROBERT TOLZ answered:
)I thank Michael for providing the above quotation in full context
)rather than just extracting the "critical judgment" phrase all by itself.
)It should be readily apparent by reading the entire paragraph that
)the phrase is used by Steiner to suggest a behavior and practice which
)should be followed in lieu of the human tendency to criticize the weakness
)of other people and instead to "to enter deeply and lovingly into another
)person's good qualities" and cultivate the habit of admiration and respect.
)I see nothing wrong with that. It is one of the concepts I hold quite dear.
)The suspension of critical judgment that Steiner is advocating is a
)suspension of *condemnation*, not a suspension of thinking. It's a
)wonderful sentiment, expressing the idea that we can learn from anyone, even
)those we dislike or disagree with, by listening to them with respect. We
)could use a little more of that on this list.
) Bob
MICHAEL KOPP:
)I'm glad to see that some people are being allowed to think the
)unthinkable, and speak the unspeakable, within the cloisters of Steiner/
)Waldorf/ Anthroposophy.
)But toleration of the occasional querulous view is a long way from reform.
TOM SINGER-CARPENTER:
I fully agree with Bob.
But I also agree with Michael Kopp, since there ARE still "cloisters of
Steiner/Waldorf/ Anthroposophy", as he puts it.
In the German Waldorf teacher Seminars there have been strong efforts to
revolve the concepts. I can only speak out of the experience with the Hamburg
Waldorf Teacher Seminar, where we have always supported critical
thinking. We found that Steiners method of thinking and writing do
require a critical approach. Some of the main books are to a great extent
pure provocation thereof. ()Theory of Knowledge( is one example)
Teachers who take part in our Seminar often understand this approach better
if they did not know Anthroposophy already, meaning if they have no fixed
concept of the content of Anthroposophy. But this is also true for all fixed
views, anthroposophical or others. My best discussions are with the rare
species of pure materialists. - - -
The truth of what Bob has to say becomes even more evident when we
look at the WHOLE context:
1. To begin with, the students endeavours to regulate his sequence of thought
(control of thought).
2. An equal consistency in his actions forms the second requirement.
(control of actions).
3. The third requirement is the cultivation of endurance (perseverance).
4. The fourth requirement is forbearance (tolerance) towards persons,
creatures and also circumstances.
5. The fifth requirement is impartiality towards everything that life brings.
6. The sixth requirement is the cultivation of a certain inner balance
(equanimity).
()Knowledge of the Higher Worlds()
To 4.: After using the same example, in this version Steiner adds:
)The erroneous, the bad, the ugly should not prevent the soul from finding the
true, the good, and the beautiful wherever it is present. This positiveness
should not be confused with non-criticism...( (Rudolf Steiner, "Outline Of
Occult Science", p.288)
Best wishes from Germany!
Tom Singer-Carpenter
Switzerland,Germany
(A HREF="mail waldorfseminar.de")mail waldorfseminar.de(/A)
(A HREF="http://www.waldorfseminar.de")http://www.waldorfseminar.de(/A)
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From: "MICHAEL RONALL" (mronall rabecker.com)
Subject: Re: Ron Miller's article on web site
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:57:20 -0500
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))) Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz) - 3/23/99 3:33 AM )))
writes:
my two children were robbed of their abilities
to think critically by the SWA teaching of "merit in all viewpoints", no
matter how cockamamy they are.
MRx (that's me) responds:
I believe that there IS merit in all viewpoints, and that that is worth teaching; just not equal merit.
This accords with the viewpoints recently posted that advocate "withholding ... critical judgement" about the speaker, while maintining it for the speech.
Nothing really new here.
Chronically seeking merit; sometimes critically, /MRx
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From: "MICHAEL RONALL" (mronall rabecker.com)
Subject: Re: Ron Miller's article on web site -- concerning esoterica
quota
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:09:08 -0500
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Greetings, Ron Miller; welcome to the List.
I read your post with interest. It included your view that in WE ))the child's personal development ... is described too esoterically((
My question to you: What would be the correct amount? Please feel free to amplify!
Thanks, /MRx (Michael Ronall)
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From: Jeff Goldstein (Jeffg houser.com)
Subject: Ron Miller's article on web site
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:06:44 -0800
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Allow me to be controversial:
Ron Said (Sorry about selectively snipping here)
..."At a Waldorf school, our children will not be treated as future job
seekers or savvy consumers or high-tech warriors in the battle against
foreign competition, but as evolving
spiritual beings who seek lives of meaning and beauty and inspiration."
Actually, I'm not sure if this is an argument for or *against* Waldorf. I
want school to prepare my kids for "the real world." We can find
spiritualism elsewhere. With all the talk about historically great
thinkers, someone referenced Maslow. Lets not forget these ideas of self
actualization are at the TOP of the pyramid. Let the school demonstrate its
ability to prepare my kid for real life and not a utopian vision of how the
world should be (but unfortunately ISNT!) Ever notice there aren't many
poor people touting these philosophies? They want the good life. Is the
purpose of a school to provide broad based education, or new age theology?
No wonder why Mr. Dugan is happily citing your article, you are unwillingly
validating the fears Dan raises here.
jeff
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From: SINGERCARP aol.com
Subject: Re: Baltimore school
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:09:50 EST
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)Sune Nordwall wrote:
) So, taken literally, the purpose of the list, as I understand it, does
) not include or welcome "anthroposophists" in any sense, defending
) anthroposophy, as intended participants of the discussion.
) Sune Nordwall
I do not epect an answer from Dan, (Three essentials have been remaining
unanswered for months now) but would nevertheless like to add myself to the
list of people asking Sune's question.
Tom Singer-Carpenter
Switzerland/Germany
mail waldorfseminar.de
(A HREF="http://www.Waldorfseminar.de")www.waldorfseminar.de(/A)
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From: ckzfrey (ckzfrey ix.netcom.com)
Subject: Re: My Waldorfian alma mater in the news
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 99 19:19:42 -0600
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)
)Now, in her second year away from the school, and back in a state school,
)she has been recruited back to her old team, which is short of girls who
)want to play basketball. The other girls pleaded with her to come back and
)play with them.
)
)I guess I'll have to go along to the games and root for the Steiner kids,
)eh?
)
)That is, if I can show my face.
)
)How's that for irony?
)
)
)Cheers,
)
)Michael Kopp
)Wellington, New Zealand
Michael--
Try this...
Bricka bracka firecracker, sis boom bah.
Rudolph Steiner, Rudolph Steiner, rah rah rah.
You'll be head cheerleader in no time!!
Peace,
Charlie
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From: MomOf2Gals aol.com
Subject: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:32:54 EST
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I have only been on this list for one day, and already I am intrigued! Thanks
for all the responses to my query about the purposes of this board/list.
One thing disturbs me, however. It sounds from what some people have posted
that anyone who may have a deep interest in -- or dare I say even a budding
belief in? -- anthroposophy is NOT welcome here. Is that actually the case? My
read of the word ``critic'' was anyone who might have anything to offer in the
way of enlightenment on a subject: positive OR negative.
I would not describe my belief-system as ``New Agey'' or cultish in any way.
Yet I find what I do know about Steiner's view of the human spirit quite
fascinating and not at all off-putting. Does that make me an anthropop? No, I
could not accurately describe myself as such. But am I turned off or alarmed
by the idea that Steiner believed that children are in the process of
incarnating as they grow, and that souls are born again and again
(reincarnation)? Not at all. I find both views interesting and very much
within the realm of possibility.
*** I also must question those who feel they were somehow deceived or
``duped'' by what was presented to them about WE and what their children
received. If these folks are just complaining because their children received
a sub-par educational experience, I agree they have a lot to complain about
(especially at Waldorf school tuition prices!!) But I find it hard to believe
that anyone might feel their children were somehow indoctrinated into occult
spiritual beliefs or practices without their parents' knowledge. C'mon! I
cannot believe that every Waldorf teacher is a deeply committed
anthroposophist with ``knowledge of other worlds'' and the occult and
communicates such to his or her class on a daily basis. That just strains my
credulity.
If anyone out there has experience with something like that, PLEASE take the
time to tell us (or at least me) about it! All I have found so far of the
spiritual nature of Waldorf education is that my children are being imbued
with a reverence for life in all of its forms, and with the notion that
humankind is a noble creation with special abilities and therefore special
responsibilities. Who could complain about that?
-- Lisa in Baltimore, MD
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From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: My Waldorfian alma mater in the news
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:46:22 -0800
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Michael Kopp wrote,
))Now, in her second year away from the school, and back in a state school,
))she has been recruited back to her old team, which is short of girls who
))want to play basketball. The other girls pleaded with her to come back and
))play with them.
))
))I guess I'll have to go along to the games and root for the Steiner kids,
))eh?
))
))That is, if I can show my face.
))
))How's that for irony?
Sounds very familiar, Michael. My son's basketball coach was his former
Waldorf teacher. My husband is the assistant coach. Derek's school and the
Waldorf school (his former school) are "sister schools" - meaning that the
basketball team consists of students (thus parents) from both schools. My
son is the point guard on the team, and a fine one at that. I can sit and
cheer right along side of the parents' whose school I am suing. They may be
more uncomfortable that I am with the situation. I have done nothing wrong
and the team was in excellent standing, with the contribution of my son, a
gifted athlete...
Debra Snell
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1156.10 ---------------
From: "MICHAEL RONALL" (mronall rabecker.com)
Subject: Re: My Waldorfian alma mater in the news
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 21:02:51 -0500
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Dear Debra,
Please forgive me if I've been inattentive -- I thought I had a rough idea of most of the posts (though not every thought on every post) since I joined the list over the winter, and that I would have registered that you are at present suing a school. Would you be willing to provide an outline of the circumstances, off-list if this is old terrain. Thanks, /Michael Ronall
))) Debra Snell (snell netshel.net) - 3/23/99 8:46 PM )))
Michael Kopp wrote,
))Now, in her second year away from the school, and back in a state school,
))she has been recruited back to her old team, which is short of girls who
))want to play basketball. The other girls pleaded with her to come back and
))play with them.
))
))I guess I'll have to go along to the games and root for the Steiner kids,
))eh?
))
))That is, if I can show my face.
))
))How's that for irony?
Sounds very familiar, Michael. My son's basketball coach was his former
Waldorf teacher. My husband is the assistant coach. Derek's school and the
Waldorf school (his former school) are "sister schools" - meaning that the
basketball team consists of students (thus parents) from both schools. My
son is the point guard on the team, and a fine one at that. I can sit and
cheer right along side of the parents' whose school I am suing. They may be
more uncomfortable that I am with the situation. I have done nothing wrong
and the team was in excellent standing, with the contribution of my son, a
gifted athlete...
Debra Snell
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1156 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1157 --------------
001 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: My Waldorfian alma mater in the news
002 - Daniel Sabsay (danielsabs - Re: Baltimore school
003 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - Re: My Waldorfian alma mater in the news
004 - SINGERCARP aol.com - wrong book
005 - Ron Miller (milleron toge - "correct amount" of esoteric ideas
006 - Ron Miller (milleron toge - Re: Ron Miller's article on web site
007 - BruceyJ aol.com - Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
008 - BruceyJ aol.com - Re: Baltimore school
009 - BruceyJ aol.com - Rudolf Rudolph
010 - BruceyJ aol.com - Re: Baltimore school
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1157.1 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: My Waldorfian alma mater in the news
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 19:56:49 -0800
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In-Reply-To: (199903240205.SAA04398 lists1.best.com)
)Dear Debra,
)
)Please forgive me if I've been inattentive -- I thought I had a rough idea
)of most of the posts (though not every thought on every post) since I
)joined the list over the winter, and that I would have registered that you
)are at present suing a school. Would you be willing to provide an outline
)of the circumstances, off-list if this is old terrain. Thanks, /Michael
)Ronall
PLANS is suing two school districts in violation of the first ammendment -
separation of church and state. _One_ of those schools (The Yuba River
School) happens to be in my neighborhood, and the school which I helped
found. The Yuba River School is the "sister school" of my son's school,
"Nevada City School of the Arts". Small town.
Debra
)))) Debra Snell (snell netshel.net) - 3/23/99 8:46 PM )))
)Michael Kopp wrote,
)))Now, in her second year away from the school, and back in a state school,
)))she has been recruited back to her old team, which is short of girls who
)))want to play basketball. The other girls pleaded with her to come back and
)))play with them.
)))
)))I guess I'll have to go along to the games and root for the Steiner kids,
)))eh?
)))
)))That is, if I can show my face.
)))
)))How's that for irony?
)
)Sounds very familiar, Michael. My son's basketball coach was his former
)Waldorf teacher. My husband is the assistant coach. Derek's school and the
)Waldorf school (his former school) are "sister schools" - meaning that the
)basketball team consists of students (thus parents) from both schools. My
)son is the point guard on the team, and a fine one at that. I can sit and
)cheer right along side of the parents' whose school I am suing. They may be
)more uncomfortable that I am with the situation. I have done nothing wrong
)and the team was in excellent standing, with the contribution of my son, a
)gifted athlete...
)Debra Snell
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1157.2 ---------------
From: Daniel Sabsay (danielsabsay pacbell.net)
Subject: Re: Baltimore school
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 21:47:58 -0800
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BruceyJ aol.com wrote )
)I agree with Ezra that the unnaturalness of black makes it preferable to use
)other colours - coal, for instance, is never really BLACK. It (not using
)black) makes one realise that what one sees is actually rarely pure chemical
)colour (Goethe), but a mixture of the objects chemical colour (its painted
)colour), the physical colour which it reflects (shadow, prismatic effects)
)and
)psychological colour (after image, eye imperfections etc). Perspective
)through
)colour (red foreground, blue background) is also helped.
This is meaningless babble to me.
-- Daniel
Daniel Sabsay Macintosh Consultant
http://www.eb-skeptics.org Ignorance is the Ultimate Renewable Resource
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1157.3 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: Re: My Waldorfian alma mater in the news
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 18:47:49 +1200
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))
))Now, in her second year away from the school, and back in a state school,
))she has been recruited back to her old team, which is short of girls who
))want to play basketball. The other girls pleaded with her to come back and
))play with them.
))
))I guess I'll have to go along to the games and root for the Steiner kids,
))eh?
))
))That is, if I can show my face.
))
))How's that for irony?
))
))
))Cheers,
))
))Michael Kopp
))Wellington, New Zealand
)
)
)Michael--
) Try this...
)
)Bricka bracka firecracker, sis boom bah.
)Rudolph Steiner, Rudolph Steiner, rah rah rah.
)
)You'll be head cheerleader in no time!!
)
)Peace,
)Charlie
Sorry, Charlie,
As a photojournalist, I spent approximately two YEARS of my life covering
all sports from high school tiddlywinks to pro football and soccer.
When I say two YEARS of my life, I mean actual total time, not
over-a-period-of.
That's over 12 years of at least twice-weekly coverage of some sport (and
the associated darkroom and writing time), from the time I was about 14 in
high school.
And I hated cheerleaders.
And I hate sports.
Besides, competitive sports are anathema to Steiner/ Waldorf/
Anthropsophical principles. None of the committed Anthropop teachers or
staff of the school ever came to any of the games -- until their own kids
started playing. Then they were as rabid as any wild fan.
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
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From: SINGERCARP aol.com
Subject: wrong book
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 06:05:10 EST
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24.03.1999 0:47:17 Michael Ronall, New York, wrote to my quote:
))It is definitely not from Knowledge of the Higher Worlds.((
)I'm not at home at the moment, so I cannot reach for my copy, but I am ever
so
)sure that it's in the first 36 pages;
)by my memory (Metaxa translation; 1949 I think): "If I meet a man and blame
him
)for his shortcomings, I rob myself of [the power to gain higher knowledge
about
)him]. But if I enter lovingly into his merits, I gain such power... The
spiritually
)experienced know how much they owe to the circumstance that [they turn ever
and
)agin toward the good].
Of course Michael is right. The only excuse I can come up with is the
fact that translations are so very different from the original. I have not
worked with the English editions, so I didn't recognize the quote.
Tom Singer-Carpenter, Hamburg
mail waldorfseminar.de
(A HREF="http://www.waldorfseminar.de")www.waldorfseminar.de(/A)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1157.5 ---------------
From: Ron Miller (milleron together.net)
Subject: "correct amount" of esoteric ideas
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:38:30 -0500
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References: (199903232311.PAA23379 lists1.best.com)
MICHAEL RONALL wrote:
)
) Greetings, Ron Miller; welcome to the List.
)
) I read your post with interest. It included your view that in WE ))the child's personal development ... is described too esoterically((
)
) My question to you: What would be the correct amount? Please feel free to amplify!
)
) Thanks, /MRx (Michael Ronall)
Thank you for the welcome. I meant two things by commenting that WE
describes child development "too esoterically." First, I think that
holistic educators--we who want to draw attention to the spiritual
nature of the child--need to communicate our ideas in language that
other reasonable people can grasp and respond to. For example, when I
read Carl Jung (with his notion of archetypes) or Ken Wilber (with his
theory of the "spectrum of consciousness"), I can follow their argument
and make sense of it, and find a basis on which to agree or
disagree--even though they are talking about realms of experience that
are just as nonrational as "astral body". (I'm not saying they are easy
to read :-) but at least they make sense.) In my repeated attempts to
make sense of Steiner, I have hit a dead end every time because I cannot
grasp many of his key concepts.
Second, I have been much more drawn to spiritual teachers/writers such
as Zen sages, Krishnamurti, Parker Palmer, Alfred North Whitehead, even
Emerson (who is popular with anthroposophists) etc. who DO NOT attempt
to specify what the spiritual world(s) is or are like. They invite us to
go beyond our rational, calculating, self-interested ways of thinking
(this is the essence of spirituality, I think) and discover what lies
beyond. They invite us to engage our children and students as if there
were some spiritual depth to them, which means we must engage them with
respect, openness, and authenticity. They don't tell us that at
so-and-so age children grow into so-and-so form and we should do such
and such with them. It seems to me that if Steiner's perceptions were in
fact accurate, then by treating children with genuine openness we too
would discern such patterns in their development--as Montessori did
without all the esoteric language. But this openness would then allow us
to engage them in ways that are appropriate to our own time and place,
not to post-World War I Germany.
So, I do appreciate Steiner's attempt to offer a trans-rational
understanding of human development. I just think it is too specific and
restrictive. I don't know what the "correct amount" of esoteric
terminology would be--only that we as educators need to remain open to
the mysterious unfolding of life in our students.
Ron
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From: Ron Miller (milleron together.net)
Subject: Re: Ron Miller's article on web site
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:16:21 -0500
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References: (199903240007.QAA15305 lists1.best.com)
Jeff Goldstein wrote:
)
) Allow me to be controversial:
)
) Ron Said (Sorry about selectively snipping here)
)
) ..."At a Waldorf school, our children will not be treated as future job
) seekers or savvy consumers or high-tech warriors in the battle against
) foreign competition, but as evolving
) spiritual beings who seek lives of meaning and beauty and inspiration."
)
) Actually, I'm not sure if this is an argument for or *against* Waldorf. I
) want school to prepare my kids for "the real world." We can find
) spiritualism elsewhere. With all the talk about historically great
) thinkers, someone referenced Maslow. Lets not forget these ideas of self
) actualization are at the TOP of the pyramid. Let the school demonstrate its
) ability to prepare my kid for real life and not a utopian vision of how the
) world should be (but unfortunately ISNT!) Ever notice there aren't many
) poor people touting these philosophies? They want the good life. Is the
) purpose of a school to provide broad based education, or new age theology?
) No wonder why Mr. Dugan is happily citing your article, you are unwillingly
) validating the fears Dan raises here.
)
) jeff
Jeff, you have zeroed in on the very heart of the matter: the conflict
between two worldviews. If our modernist culture does indeed represent
"the good life," then Waldorf and other forms of holistic education are
on the wrong track. Those people (by far the majority at this point) who
do believe in pursuing success according to the modern world's terms
(individual competition for material wealth) will not find holistic
education to be very realistic. If that is what you value, nothing I say
will change your mind. My point is that some of us believe that
modernism does NOT, in the long run, offer a good life, but will lead
instead to the destruction of the natural world and the diminishment of
our most precious qualities as human beings. We hope that a postmodern
culture is gradually emerging and we are trying to live our lives, and
teach our children, in a way that will help it emerge. Maybe we'll be
proved to be sentimental romantics in the end, but for now we just
cannot accept the direction that modernism is taking us. You're very
correct that it is upper middle class folks, for the most part, who can
afford to take the risk of experimenting with these unconventional
values. But I don't think that invalidates them.
But having said all this, let me add a couple other points: First,
young people who have been educated in Waldorf and other alternative
schools are not necessarily handicapped for pursuing success in
conventional terms, if that is what they choose. Other than the "eight
year study" done in the 1930s and 1940s which showed that very
progressive high schools successfully prepared students for good
universities, I cannot cite actual statistical evidence, but my
experience with numerous alternative schools tells me that young people
leave these places with many skills and attributes that serve them well:
flexible and independent thinking, exceptional creativity, an ability to
negotiate and work with others, a sense of personal responsibility, and
so on. As one alternative school in our area advertises, "there's more
than one way to get smart."
Second, I want to support what Lisa in Baltimore posted yesterday--that
children in WS are "being imbued with a reverence for life" and "the
notion that humankind is a noble creation..." Surely these values
belong in any authentic definition of "the good life." If they sound
quaint or romantic, this only goes to show how utterly indoctrinated we
have become by the values of materialism, selfishness, and greed. It is
not just "new age theology" that holds these values, but, presumably,
the entire Judeo-Christian tradition and all serious religions. It is a
tragedy that corporate capitalism and its indoctrinating arm, public
schooling, have no place for such romantic notions.
Yes, I'm utopian, and proud of it.
But in closing, I do want to say that I understand where you're coming
from. The transition to a postmodern civilization, even if it does
happen, is not going to be smooth or easy. The existing culture is very
compelling and very well established. Most people are not about to let
go of it for something unknown. You definitely have the majority on your
side.
Ron
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1157.7 ---------------
From: BruceyJ aol.com
Subject: Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:09:06 EST
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In einer eMail vom 24.03.99 01:46:19 (MEZ) Mitteleurop”ische Zeit schreibt
MomOf2Gals aol.com:
) I cannot believe that every Waldorf teacher is a deeply committed
) anthroposophist with ``knowledge of other worlds'' and the occult and
) communicates such to his or her class on a daily basis. That just strains
my
) credulity.
Hi Lisa!
Welcome to the WC!
I am a card carrying committed anthroposophist and proud of it. Your question
raised the response that I and others shouldn't really be here. We are waiting
for Dan's edict (but there is no panic Dan).
MOST of the true blue critics here are critical of waldorf in state schools,
thus no enormous fees. I and others sit here and watch with amusement as most
of them continually shoot themselves in the foot, and chip in when it is
helpful. One of Dan's favourite arguments is that the schools teach exactly
what Steiner prescribed even in 1999. I am sure that he has noticed that the
teaching language in (anyway most) schools in the US is ENglish. Steiner could
not speak English!!! (g)
I am unsure of the state school thing. It seems to be peculiar to America. I
tried (not singlehandedly!) to create a Steiner state school in Britain. The
local teacher trade-unions boycotted it - the money should go to other schools
in the region. Their boycott was successful. The money, GBP 8,000,000, was
used to build bombs instead. I hope the trade-unions learnt their lesson.
Maybe the WCs could learn a lesson from this too!
Bruce
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1157.8 ---------------
From: BruceyJ aol.com
Subject: Re: Baltimore school
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:09:02 EST
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Well, strangely they are well you know blackish!
ezra save-america.org wrote:
) I suppose, then, your blackboards are not blackish?
) e
)
) BruceyJ aol.com wrote:
)
) ) I was teaching my class2 English lesson recently with their class-teacher
) ) present. I told a story about a London bus and a London taxi, and then
) wanted
) ) to draw them on the blackboard - while I had (in preparation) already
) decided
) ) that a taxi on a blackboard might be a bit demanding, so was only going
to
) ) paint the bus, but the class-teacher, not knowing this, said that he had
) black
) ) chalk! Sadly I never actually saw it!
) )
) ) Bruce
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1157.9 ---------------
From: BruceyJ aol.com
Subject: Rudolf Rudolph
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:09:04 EST
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Dear Critics!
As one of many Bruce's on the SWA (did I write that?) circuit, amybe I am more
sensitive to name spelling than most. But, criticise him all you may, you
cannot change the poor fella's name - he is
Rudolf Steiner (Rudolf with an F)
Bruce
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1157.10 ---------------
From: BruceyJ aol.com
Subject: Re: Baltimore school
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:09:09 EST
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In einer eMail vom 24.03.99 07:00:57 (MEZ) Mitteleurop”ische Zeit schreibt
danielsabsay pacbell.net:
) BruceyJ aol.com wrote )
)
) )I agree with Ezra that the unnaturalness of black makes it preferable to
) use
) )other colours - coal, for instance, is never really BLACK. It (not using
) )black) makes one realise that what one sees is actually rarely pure
) chemical
) )colour (Goethe), but a mixture of the objects chemical colour (its painted
) )colour), the physical colour which it reflects (shadow, prismatic effects)
) )and
) )psychological colour (after image, eye imperfections etc). Perspective
) )through
) )colour (red foreground, blue background) is also helped.
Daniel wrote:
) This is meaningless babble to me.
Bruce writes:
Then you should have attended a waldorf school
Bruce
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1157 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1158 --------------
001 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Baltimore school
002 - Michael Hirsch (hirsch ma - Anthropops NOT welcome?
003 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
004 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
005 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: Ron Miller's article on web site
006 - BruceyJ aol.com - Goethe and colour (was Baltimore school)
007 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Goethe and colour (was Baltimore school)
008 - BruceyJ aol.com - Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
009 - BruceyJ aol.com - Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
010 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Baltimore school
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1158.1 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Baltimore school
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:17:44 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
) -----Original Message-----
) From: BruceyJ aol.com [mailto:BruceyJ aol.com]
)
) ) BruceyJ aol.com wrote )
) )
) ) )I agree with Ezra that the unnaturalness of black makes
) it preferable to
) ) use
) ) )other colours - coal, for instance, is never really
) BLACK. It (not using
) ) )black) makes one realise that what one sees is actually
) rarely pure
) ) chemical
) ) )colour (Goethe), but a mixture of the objects chemical
) colour (its painted
) ) )colour), the physical colour which it reflects (shadow,
) prismatic effects)
) ) )and
) ) )psychological colour (after image, eye imperfections
) etc). Perspective
) ) )through
) ) )colour (red foreground, blue background) is also helped.
)
) Daniel wrote:
)
) ) This is meaningless babble to me.
)
) Bruce writes:
)
) Then you should have attended a waldorf school
)
) Bruce
)
I think I've deciphered the "babble" for Dan Sabsay (as well as
myself). Correct me if I'm wrong, Bruce.
Black is evidences the absence of both light and color. If there is
sufficient light to see anything, even though our minds may take the
shortcut to saying an object is black, upon further observation we will see
that there are shades of color involved. There are many different factors
which influence the content of that color, such as the object's inherent
color, reflections of color from objects close-by (e.g., the yellow
buttercup held under the neck effect), the way we may individually distort
our interpretation of the color by reason of our own perceptions, and so
forth.
Am I warm?
Bob
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1158.2 ---------------
From: Michael Hirsch (hirsch mathcs.emory.edu)
Subject: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:35:09 -0500 (EST)
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In-Reply-To: (37373021 toto.iv)
MomOf2Gals aol.com writes:
) I have only been on this list for one day, and already I am intrigued! Thanks
) for all the responses to my query about the purposes of this board/list.
) One thing disturbs me, however. It sounds from what some people have posted
) that anyone who may have a deep interest in -- or dare I say even a budding
) belief in? -- anthroposophy is NOT welcome here. Is that actually the case? My
) read of the word ``critic'' was anyone who might have anything to offer in the
) way of enlightenment on a subject: positive OR negative.
I think most of us welcome anyone who wishes to examine waldorf
"critically" in the sense that you are prepared to consider alternate
viewpoints, defend your assertions, etc. You need not be critical in
the sense of being negative, but it you are unprepared to admit that
there could be any negative, then you aren't being critical.
I think this list is pointless without debate, and debate will not
happen without opposing viewpoints. I believe that one of Dan's
complaints about another Waldorf list was that opposing viewpoints
were not welcomed there, so I assume that he accepts list members with
opposing viewpoints here, no matter how much he might disagree with
them.
) If anyone out there has experience with something like that, PLEASE take the
) time to tell us (or at least me) about it! All I have found so far of the
) spiritual nature of Waldorf education is that my children are being imbued
) with a reverence for life in all of its forms, and with the notion that
) humankind is a noble creation with special abilities and therefore special
) responsibilities. Who could complain about that?
Pretty horrifying stories are in the archives. I believe Dan's story
is also on the PLANS website.
Dan, is there any chance to get a searchable archive, or at least a
way to list the subject of a message independant of downloading it? I
find the archive essentially useless as it is.
--Michael
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1158.3 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 08:36:58 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In-Reply-To: (199903241515.HAA17255 lists1.best.com)
On 24 Mar 99, at 10:09, BruceyJ aol.com wrote:
) I am a card carrying committed anthroposophist and proud of it. Your
) question raised the response that I and others shouldn't really be here.
I am concerned, too, about the language on the PLANS site
regarding the purpose of this list, but from what I've seen, Dan and
the other critics appreciate and value the participation of
anthroposophists on the list. Hey, without you guys, who would
they argue with?
) I and others sit here and watch with amusement as most of them
) continually shoot themselves in the foot, and chip in when it is
) helpful.
I sit somewhere in the middle. I have a basically favorable
impression of Waldorf education, for the reasons that Lisa and Ron
have mentioned, but share many of the concerns of the critics: that
anthroposophical concepts sometimes creep into the classroom,
and that parents are often unaware of just how bizarre that belief
system is. (In spite of Joel Wendt's protestations to the contrary,
the fact that most anthroposophists accept the existence of Lucifer
and Ahriman as actual beings rather than as abstract concepts
supports the view that it a belief system, rather than simply a
method.) I am also highly critical of the claim that anthroposophy
is a "science," and think, basically, that it's full of nonsensical
beliefs about Atlantis, the various types of spiritual beings and their
characteristics, the attributes of people in prior civilizations, and so
on.
And from where I sit, it seems to me that both sides articulate their
own positions pretty well, but tend to exaggerate the position of the
other side and claim that the other side is "shooting itself in the
foot." The exception to this is Dan's attempt to link Steiner with
Nazi ideology, and I think in that case, he really *is* shooting
himself in the foot.
) One of Dan's favourite arguments is that the
) schools teach exactly what Steiner prescribed even in 1999. I am sure that
) he has noticed that the teaching language in (anyway most) schools in the
) US is ENglish. Steiner could not speak English!!! (g)
This is an example of exaggerating the position of the other side,
and claiming (incorrectly, I think) that the other side is shooting
itself in the foot.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"There is a right and a wrong in the Universe and
that distinction is not difficult to make." - Superman
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1158.4 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 12:08:24 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
) -----Original Message-----
) From: Michael Hirsch [mailto:hirsch mathcs.emory.edu]
)
) Dan, is there any chance to get a searchable archive, or at least a
) way to list the subject of a message independant of downloading it? I
) find the archive essentially useless as it is.
)
) --Michael
)
Great idea. I hope it's feasible without a lot of work on Dan's
part.
Bob
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1158.5 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Ron Miller's article on web site
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 09:10:58 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In-Reply-To: (199903241437.GAA05976 lists1.best.com)
On 24 Mar 99, at 9:16, Ron Miller wrote:
) Jeff, you have zeroed in on the very heart of the matter: the conflict
) between two worldviews. If our modernist culture does indeed represent
) "the good life," then Waldorf and other forms of holistic education are on
) the wrong track. Those people (by far the majority at this point) who do
) believe in pursuing success according to the modern world's terms
) (individual competition for material wealth) will not find holistic
) education to be very realistic.
You are assuming that material well-being is antithetical to spiritual
values. I think that this is wrong. I don't think that our culture
necessarily values material success over ethical conduct, but they
are rewarded in different ways. Material success is rewarded
materially, and ethical conduct and spiritual values are rewarded
with peace of mind. It seems to me that most people seek both.
By the way, could you define "modernist" and "post-modernist?" I
went to college in the early 70's, before the terms were in vogue,
and I'm not clear on what they mean. My main contact with the
term "post-modernist" has been with respect to criticism of the
scientific method, and I disagree with that criticism.
) Second, I want to support what Lisa in Baltimore posted yesterday--that
) children in WS are "being imbued with a reverence for life" and "the
) notion that humankind is a noble creation..." Surely these values belong
) in any authentic definition of "the good life."
Actually, I have a real problem with the notion that humanity is a
"creation" of any sort, although I have no problem with the concept
that humanity is noble. The idea of a creation implies a separation
between the creator and the created. This is, of course, essential
to Judeo-Christian theology, but my personal spiritual belief is that
there is no such separation; that God and the universe are one,
and that we are one with both.
Also of concern to me is the anthroposophical belief that humans
are not animals; that animals are a lower form of life, in that they
are beings that split off from us, spiritually, on the way to becoming
human. Let me elaborate.
As I understand anthroposophical theory, humans existed before
the dawn of time; before the birth of the universe. We existed in a
spirit form, which was on a journey toward becoming human.
Some of those spirits "got off the bus" before becoming human,
and those spirits became animals instead. Those that "stayed on
the bus" became human. The world exists to make a place for us
to continue on our spiritual path. (Note to anthroposophists:
Please correct me when I say this stuff if it is inaccurate!)
This is much like the Judeo-Christian belief that the world and all
life therein exists for our benefit. I think that this attitude has been
the cause of much woe, although the fact that it is tempered, in
anthroposophy, with an attitude of reverence for life helps a lot.
Personally, I find great spiritual value in the concept that we are a
type of animal, existing in a world with many other types of
animals, and that we evolved to our present condition through
natural selection. I don't feel that we are inherently superior to
other animals, but we do have some abilities that are beyond those
of other animals, although the difference is one of degree.
These concepts help me feel connected to all life, and all of the
universe, while the orientation of both anthroposophy and Judeo-
Christian theology make me feel separate. To me, the former
concepts have more spiritual value.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"There is a right and a wrong in the Universe and
that distinction is not difficult to make." - Superman
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1158.6 ---------------
From: BruceyJ aol.com
Subject: Goethe and colour (was Baltimore school)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 12:32:34 EST
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In einer eMail vom 24.03.99 17:29:00 (MEZ) Mitteleurop”ische Zeit schreibt
RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM:
)
) I think I've deciphered the "babble" for Dan Sabsay (as well as
) myself). Correct me if I'm wrong, Bruce.
)
) Black is evidences the absence of both light and color. If there is
) sufficient light to see anything, even though our minds may take the
) shortcut to saying an object is black, upon further observation we will see
) that there are shades of color involved. There are many different factors
) which influence the content of that color, such as the object's inherent
) color, reflections of color from objects close-by (e.g., the yellow
) buttercup held under the neck effect), the way we may individually distort
) our interpretation of the color by reason of our own perceptions, and so
) forth.
)
) Am I warm?
)
) Bob
)
I think you would get a 2 from me for that Bob! Yes, very warm! WE all need to
work thru the things like you did to understand them, and it would be good for
Daniel (nothing personal meant) and others to try to too. The process Bob
describes is really difficult, although possible, to describe without using
Goethe's theory.
Bruce
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1158.7 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Goethe and colour (was Baltimore school)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 13:05:23 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
) -----Original Message-----
) From: BruceyJ aol.com [mailto:BruceyJ aol.com]
) )
) ) Am I warm?
) )
) ) Bob
) )
)
) I think you would get a 2 from me for that Bob! Yes, very
) warm! WE all need to
) work thru the things like you did to understand them, and it
) would be good for
) Daniel (nothing personal meant) and others to try to too. The
) process Bob
) describes is really difficult, although possible, to describe
) without using
) Goethe's theory.
)
) Bruce
)
2 out of how many points? I'm on the edge of my seat.
Bob
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1158.8 ---------------
From: BruceyJ aol.com
Subject: Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 13:01:32 EST
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In einer eMail vom 24.03.99 17:56:12 (MEZ) Mitteleurop”ische Zeit schreibt
premo cruzio.com:
Steve Premo wrote, initially citing me:
)
) ) One of Dan's favourite arguments is that the
) ) schools teach exactly what Steiner prescribed even in 1999. I am sure
that
) ) he has noticed that the teaching language in (anyway most) schools in the
) ) US is ENglish. Steiner could not speak English!!! (g)
Steve:
) This is an example of exaggerating the position of the other side,
) and claiming (incorrectly, I think) that the other side is shooting
) itself in the foot.
Hence the (g), of course I credit Dan with more intelligence, but I wanted to
show how ridicupous some of the statements are. When I am not being flippant I
TRY not to exaggerate, but I too am only human... as to Ahriman and Lucifer:
what do YOU understand by the term Spiritual Being?
Bruce
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1158.9 ---------------
From: BruceyJ aol.com
Subject: Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 13:01:30 EST
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In einer eMail vom 24.03.99 17:55:04 (MEZ) Mitteleurop”ische Zeit schreibt
hirsch mathcs.emory.edu:
)
) Dan, is there any chance to get a searchable archive, or at least a
) way to list the subject of a message independant of downloading it? I
) find the archive essentially useless as it is.
)
Agreeing with a WC again - I second Michael!!
Bruce
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1158.10 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Baltimore school
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:13:33 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199903241517.HAA17866 lists1.best.com)
What use would black chalk be on a blackish board? Emphasis?
Here, many blackboards are green.
e
BruceyJ aol.com wrote:
) Well, strangely they are well you know blackish!
)
) ezra save-america.org wrote:
)
) ) I suppose, then, your blackboards are not blackish?
) ) e
) )
) ) BruceyJ aol.com wrote:
) )
) ) ) I was teaching my class2 English lesson recently with their class-teacher
) ) ) present. I told a story about a London bus and a London taxi, and then
) ) wanted
) ) ) to draw them on the blackboard - while I had (in preparation) already
) ) decided
) ) ) that a taxi on a blackboard might be a bit demanding, so was only going
) to
) ) ) paint the bus, but the class-teacher, not knowing this, said that he had
) ) black
) ) ) chalk! Sadly I never actually saw it!
) ) )
) ) ) Bruce
) )
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1158 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1159 --------------
001 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Ron Miller's article on web site
002 - Tarjei Straume (tastraum - Re: Ron Miller's article on web site
003 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
004 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Rudolf Rudolph
005 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
006 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Right Brain and Reading
007 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Baltimore school
008 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
009 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Alternative Educational Technologies
010 - BruceyJ aol.com - Re: Ron Miller's article on web site
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1159.1 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Ron Miller's article on web site
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 13:40:31 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
) -----Original Message-----
) From: Steve Premo [mailto:premo cruzio.com]
[Ron Miller]
) ) If our modernist culture does
) ) indeed represent
) ) "the good life," then Waldorf and other forms of holistic
) ) education are on
) ) the wrong track. Those people (by far the majority at this
) ) point) who do
) ) believe in pursuing success according to the modern world's terms
) ) (individual competition for material wealth) will not find holistic
) ) education to be very realistic.
) [Steve Premo]
) You are assuming that material well-being is antithetical to
) spiritual
) values. I think that this is wrong. I don't think that our culture
) necessarily values material success over ethical conduct, but they
) are rewarded in different ways. Material success is rewarded
) materially, and ethical conduct and spiritual values are rewarded
) with peace of mind. It seems to me that most people seek both.
I'm sure he can speak for himself, but I didn't read Ron's position
as saying that material well-being is antithetical to spiritual values.
Heaven knows, without Waldorf in the public schools, a family *has* to have
a level of material well-being in order to afford a private Waldorf
education.
Speaking for myself, one of the difficulties I have with
"materially-oriented" education is the lack of an even passing nod to
acknowledge the reverence for life which both you and I share with Ron and
Lisa. It seems to me that with traditional education, the child is often
treated as little more than an information-processing machine, being trained
to perform in the circus of post-graduate life.
Bob
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1159.2 ---------------
From: Tarjei Straume (tastraum online.no)
Subject: Re: Ron Miller's article on web site
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 19:39:22 +0100
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References: (199903241437.GAA05976 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903241713.JAA17494 lists1.best.com)
Steve Premo wrote (to Jeff):
)By the way, could you define "modernist" and "post-modernist?" I
)went to college in the early 70's, before the terms were in vogue,
)and I'm not clear on what they mean.
Those terms have always been vague to me too, or I'm slow catching up here.
I think it primarily applied to the art of painting to begin with before it
got out of hand and became used about almost everything.
)My main contact with the term "post-modernist" has been with respect to
))criticism of the scientific method, and I disagree with that criticism.
I haven't heard of that use of the term before. I know there is a great
deal of discussion going on about how do define or re-define science, and
about how to redeem science from the ditch of materialism, but I don't know
if that is a criticism of the scientific method, or if has anything to do
with post-modernism.
)Actually, I have a real problem with the notion that humanity is a
)"creation" of any sort, although I have no problem with the concept
)that humanity is noble.
The idea of creation is so widespread it is implicit in the English
language with the word "creature" for all living beings.
)The idea of a creation implies a separation between the creator and the
))created. This is, of course, essential to Judeo-Christian theology, but
)my )personal spiritual belief is that there is no such separation; that
)God and the )universe are one, and that we are one with both.
Both aspects are true, the separation and the oneness. If there were no
separation betsween men and gods, there would be no sense of independence
and freedom. We would be the puppets of the will of the gods.
Anthroposophy has always had a Judeo-Christian character in addition to the
Buddhist element. The Judeo-Christian aspect is shared with the religious
roots of Western culture.
)
)Also of concern to me is the anthroposophical belief that humans
)are not animals; that animals are a lower form of life, in that they
)are beings that split off from us, spiritually, on the way to becoming
)human. Let me elaborate.
)
)As I understand anthroposophical theory, humans existed before
)the dawn of time; before the birth of the universe. We existed in a
)spirit form, which was on a journey toward becoming human.
)Some of those spirits "got off the bus" before becoming human,
)and those spirits became animals instead. Those that "stayed on
)the bus" became human. The world exists to make a place for us
)to continue on our spiritual path. (Note to anthroposophists:
)Please correct me when I say this stuff if it is inaccurate!)
)
)This is much like the Judeo-Christian belief that the world and all
)life therein exists for our benefit. I think that this attitude has been
)the cause of much woe, although the fact that it is tempered, in
)anthroposophy, with an attitude of reverence for life helps a lot.
Anthroposophy is not only "very much like" the Judeo-Christian religion; it
has incorporated all of it and elaborated it, blending it with Buddhism.
The question is not whether or not the world and its life exists for the
benefit of humans, but who is benefiting the most from it.
)
)Personally, I find great spiritual value in the concept that we are a
)type of animal, existing in a world with many other types of
)animals, and that we evolved to our present condition through
)natural selection. I don't feel that we are inherently superior to
)other animals, but we do have some abilities that are beyond those
)of other animals, although the difference is one of degree.
The idea that man is an animal has also been the cause of much woe, and
still is. Social anthropology deserves a lot of criticism. What makes homo
sapiens unique when compared to animal species, is that he has evolved the
capacity for self-dependent thinking and reflection. The oneness with
divinity you describe would be more applicable to animals than to humans.
What you are implying is that the sorld would be a happier place if we were
all animals and if there were no such thing as human beings. I cannot say
that I disagree with you on that, but perhaps hal=ppiness and harmony is a
price we have had to pay for our freedom.
)
)These concepts help me feel connected to all life, and all of the
)universe, while the orientation of both anthroposophy and Judeo-
)Christian theology make me feel separate. To me, the former
)concepts have more spiritual value.
I accept your rejection of Christianity and Anthroposophy for the reasons
you give, and I think your view is shared by many people within the New Age
Movement.
Cheers,
Tarjei
http://www.uncletaz.com/
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1159.3 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:54:17 -0700
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On 24 Mar 99, at 13:01, BruceyJ aol.com wrote:
) as to Ahriman and Lucifer: what do YOU understand by the term
) Spiritual Being?
Gee, I try to answer all direct questions directed to me, but I'm
trying to put this into context and figure out the point of the
question.
I had previously posted:
) In spite of Joel Wendt's protestations to the contrary, the fact
) that most anthroposophists accept the existence of Lucifer and
) Ahriman as actual beings rather than as abstract concepts supports
) the view that it a belief system, rather than simply a method.
I have no particular personal definition of "spiritual being," as I don't
use that concept much. But some folks who consider themselves
Christian think of Satan as an abstract concept symbolizing evil,
while others think that you're not really Christian unless you
consider Satan to be an actual being who promotes evil in the real
world.
Anthroposophists don't speak of Satan, but do speak of Lucifer and
Ahriman, and consider them to be spiritual beings with an actual
existence on a spiritual plane. Some folks who deal with
anthroposophy as, say, Waldorf parents might think of Lucifer as
an symbolic representation of our tendency to become enamored
with our own perceived spiritual progress, and think of Ahriman as
a symbolic representation of our tendency to become enamored
with material things. And some of those Waldorf parents might not
realize the extent to which anthroposophists consider Lucifer,
Ahriman, angels, and other spiritual beings to have a literal
existence.
This doesn't have a lot of relevance to the point I was making,
though.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"There is a right and a wrong in the Universe and
that distinction is not difficult to make." - Superman
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1159.4 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Rudolf Rudolph
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:08:18 -0500
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No, no, you are mistaken. We have always been criticizing Rudolph the red nosed
rain seer. Who is this Rudolf character?
e
BruceyJ aol.com wrote:
) Dear Critics!
)
) As one of many Bruce's on the SWA (did I write that?) circuit, amybe I am more
) sensitive to name spelling than most. But, criticise him all you may, you
) cannot change the poor fella's name - he is
)
) Rudolf Steiner (Rudolf with an F)
)
) Bruce
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1159.5 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:11:39 -0500
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Here in the United States we use the money to build jails.
(sarcasm)Bombs are no longer a credible threat.(/sarcasm)
Our prison industry is second only to Russia.
e
BruceyJ aol.com wrote:
) I am unsure of the state school thing. It seems to be peculiar to America. I
) tried (not singlehandedly!) to create a Steiner state school in Britain. The
) local teacher trade-unions boycotted it - the money should go to other schools
) in the region. Their boycott was successful. The money, GBP 8,000,000, was
) used to build bombs instead. I hope the trade-unions learnt their lesson.
)
) Maybe the WCs could learn a lesson from this too!
)
) Bruce
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1159.6 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Right Brain and Reading
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:20:35 -0500
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Right brain may play role in reading:
http://nt.excite.com/news/r/990323/19/health-brain11
Might have interesting implications for Waldorf methods and right handedness.
e
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1159.7 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Baltimore school
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:20:24 -0500
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Did you know a recent British study concluded lack of sleep may affect a person's
I.Q. by 1 point? So if you are of average intelligence, not enough rest could
result in borderline retardation.
Is the list keeping you up late at night?
Ciao,
e
BruceyJ aol.com wrote:
) Daniel wrote:
)
) ) This is meaningless babble to me.
)
) Bruce writes:
)
) Then you should have attended a waldorf school
)
) Bruce
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1159.8 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:28:19 -0500
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References: (199903241705.JAA12547 lists1.best.com)
I don't know what server configuration Dan is using, but simple perl search
scripts are readily available online. More cumbersome alternatives exist as
well.
Dan, contact me and I will be happy to send you an old .zip of a free script all
ready to go with minimal hacking.
e
"Tolz, Robert" wrote:
) ) -----Original Message-----
) ) From: Michael Hirsch [mailto:hirsch mathcs.emory.edu]
) )
) ) Dan, is there any chance to get a searchable archive, or at least a
) ) way to list the subject of a message independant of downloading it? I
) ) find the archive essentially useless as it is.
) )
) ) --Michael
) )
)
) Great idea. I hope it's feasible without a lot of work on Dan's
) part.
)
) Bob
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1159.9 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Alternative Educational Technologies
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:49:07 -0500
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New evidence
supports home schooling
Students perform better
than those in classroom.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_exnews/19990324_xex_new_evidence.shtml
The qualification used in discounting the effect of self selection in the study
is an extremely poor one in my opinion. Other statistical pitfalls are pretty
well outlined.
e
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1159.10 ---------------
From: BruceyJ aol.com
Subject: Re: Ron Miller's article on web site
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 15:11:35 EST
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In einer eMail vom 24.03.99 18:48:16 (MEZ) Mitteleurop”ische Zeit schreibt
premo cruzio.com:
) As I understand anthroposophical theory, humans existed before
) the dawn of time; before the birth of the universe. We existed in a
) spirit form, which was on a journey toward becoming human.
) Some of those spirits "got off the bus" before becoming human,
) and those spirits became animals instead. Those that "stayed on
) the bus" became human. The world exists to make a place for us
) to continue on our spiritual path. (Note to anthroposophists:
) Please correct me when I say this stuff if it is inaccurate!)
I see no need for correction, but as is often said here, we are not clones,
and another anthroposophist may see a need. I rather like the "bus" model -
although it somewhat simplifies what is an extremely difficult to understand
aspect of Steiner's world view. I think other anthroposophists on this list
will be better to deal with the more exact description - Tarjei, Sune?
Bruce
anthroposophist, waldorf teacher in Germany
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1159 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1160 --------------
001 - BruceyJ aol.com - Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
002 - BruceyJ aol.com - Re: Goethe and colour (was Baltimore school)
003 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - Re: Rudolf Rudolph
004 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
005 - Ron Miller (milleron toge - Re: "the good life"
006 - Ron Miller (milleron toge - Re: postmodernism
007 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
008 - Tarjei Straume (tastraum - Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
009 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Rudolf Rudolph
010 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: "the good life"
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1160.1 ---------------
From: BruceyJ aol.com
Subject: Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 15:58:16 EST
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In einer eMail vom 24.03.99 20:54:38 (MEZ) Mitteleurop”ische Zeit schreibt
premo cruzio.com:
Bruce:
) ) as to Ahriman and Lucifer: what do YOU understand by the term
) ) Spiritual Being?
Steve:
) Gee, I try to answer all direct questions directed to me, but I'm
) trying to put this into context and figure out the point of the
) question.
Bruce:
Sorry, Steve - I didn't mean to put you on the spot! YOU meant WCs, not Steve!
I like the answer though, but as you said it was not the point you were
making. Since many WCs deny the existence of a spiritual world it is academic
whether Ahriman and Lucifer are concepts or spiritual beings, wouldn't you
agree? (AND I DONT MEAN STEVE HAS TO AGREE!)
Bruce
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1160.2 ---------------
From: BruceyJ aol.com
Subject: Re: Goethe and colour (was Baltimore school)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 15:58:06 EST
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In einer eMail vom 24.03.99 19:30:48 (MEZ) Mitteleurop”ische Zeit schreibt
RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM:
)
) 2 out of how many points? I'm on the edge of my seat.
)
) Bob
)
I am sorry Bob! I forget that you are not all in Germany sometimes!
1 = sehr gut
2 = gut
3 = befriedigend
4 = ausreichend
5 = mangelhaft
6 = ungenuegend
For the minority of you whose German is insufficient (a little imagination can
go a long way), gut = good, sehr = very, befriedigend = satisfactory, 4 =
sufficient, 5 = unsatisfactory, 6 = insufficient
2 = between 92 and 77%
I was impressed - you can sit back now, Bob!
Bruce
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1160.3 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: Re: Rudolf Rudolph
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 08:01:29 +1200
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In-Reply-To: (199903241523.HAA19581 lists1.best.com)
)Dear Critics!
)
)As one of many Bruce's on the SWA (did I write that?) circuit, amybe I am
)more
)sensitive to name spelling than most. But, criticise him all you may, you
)cannot change the poor fella's name - he is
)
) Rudolf Steiner (Rudolf with an F)
)
)
)Bruce
Also known as Saint Rudy (...or is it Rudi? come on, Anthropops, help us
out here -- what's the preferred spelling of _RudolF_'s diminuitive?)
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1160.4 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 08:52:22 +1200
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In-Reply-To: (199903241803.KAA18356 lists1.best.com)
)In einer eMail vom 24.03.99 17:56:12 (MEZ) Mitteleurop”ische Zeit schreibt
)premo cruzio.com:
)
)Steve Premo wrote, initially citing me:
))
)) ) One of Dan's favourite arguments is that the
)) ) schools teach exactly what Steiner prescribed even in 1999. I am sure
)that
)) ) he has noticed that the teaching language in (anyway most) schools in
))the
)) ) US is ENglish. Steiner could not speak English!!! (g)
)
)Steve:
)) This is an example of exaggerating the position of the other side,
)) and claiming (incorrectly, I think) that the other side is shooting
)) itself in the foot.
)
)Hence the (g), of course I credit Dan with more intelligence, but I wanted
)to
)show how ridicupous some of the statements are. When I am not being
)flippant I
)TRY not to exaggerate, but I too am only human... as to Ahriman and
)Lucifer:
)what do YOU understand by the term Spiritual Being?
)
)Bruce
The term "spiritual being" (or, for those who need AUTHORITY in their lives
and words, and want to invest them with more meaning than they actually
have, "Spiritual Being") is an oxymoron.
Let me say that again without the parenthetical aside: the term spiritual
being is an oxymoron.
Being implies corporeality.
Spiritual implies non-corporeality.
Only believers in gods, religions and spirits think that there are such
things as spiritual beings, or that there is a physical "higher plane" or
what have you.
The Steiner cult, Anthroposophical religion, and Waldorf educational method
are shot through with "spirituality" -- the belief in non-corporeal
"beings" which [cq] influence our corporeal existence, and to which we can
look for "higher knowledge".
Rational, skeptical, scientific people have been asking for some evidence
of these "spiritual beings" for centuries. None that is credible is
forthcoming.
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1160.5 ---------------
From: Ron Miller (milleron together.net)
Subject: Re: "the good life"
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:21:19 -0500
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References: (199903241837.KAA12676 lists1.best.com)
)
) ) -----Original Message-----
) ) From: Steve Premo [mailto:premo cruzio.com]
) ) [Steve Premo]
) ) You are assuming that material well-being is antithetical to
) ) spiritual
) ) values. I think that this is wrong. I don't think that our culture
) ) necessarily values material success over ethical conduct, but they
) ) are rewarded in different ways. Material success is rewarded
) ) materially, and ethical conduct and spiritual values are rewarded
) ) with peace of mind. It seems to me that most people seek both.
)
) Bob Tolz: I'm sure he can speak for himself, but I didn't read Ron's position
) as saying that material well-being is antithetical to spiritual values.
)
) Speaking for myself, one of the difficulties I have with
) "materially-oriented" education is the lack of an even passing nod to
) acknowledge the reverence for life which both you and I share with Ron and
) Lisa. It seems to me that with traditional education, the child is often
) treated as little more than an information-processing machine, being trained
) to perform in the circus of post-graduate life.
)
) Bob
Thanks, Bob. I don't want to propose a complete dichotomy between
spiritual and material values. I only wanted to say that our present
culture is excessively materialistic to the exclusion of other values.
I would add, however, that most paths that seek enlightenment (or
whatever we want to call spiritual fulfillment) do emphasize that one
cannot be too "attached" to worldly things if they really want to
discover the treasures of the spirit. I think it's a question of
self-discipline and balance. Aristotle talked about the Good being found
in the golden mean. Are we in the same ballpark on this?
Ron
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1160.6 ---------------
From: Ron Miller (milleron together.net)
Subject: Re: postmodernism
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:32:06 -0500
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References: (199903241437.GAA05976 lists1.best.com) (199903241843.KAA18051 lists1.best.com)
)
Steve Premo wrote :
)
) )By the way, could you define "modernist" and "post-modernist?" I
) )went to college in the early 70's, before the terms were in vogue,
) )and I'm not clear on what they mean.
) )My main contact with the term "post-modernist" has been with respect to
) ))criticism of the scientific method, and I disagree with that criticism.
)
Wow, this is a complex subject. There are, in fact, many uses of the
term "postmodern," and some of them are quite hostile to scientific
reason. But for me, the term simply means that the group of values,
ideas, institutions, and political and economic arrangements that define
the "modern" age (from the scientific revolution to the present) are
proving to be highly damaging to the natural world and to the human
psyche as well. "Postmodern" does not mean totally throwing away
everything from the modern world and going back to some idyllic savage
life, but it means being more discerning about technology, about our
economic assumptions, about our educational practices, to take a few
examples. We would begin to choose more local, more organic, more
holistic, more sustainable, more cooperative forms of social and
cultural life, incorporating whatever in the modern world is still
useful (the scientific method, for example), but moving away from those
things that are destructive (an all-consuming scientism that reduces all
aspects of nature and human experience to quantifiable material terms).
I can't say much more than this in a short time. If you want to pursue
the topic further I recommend a few very fine (and very readable)
books: Biosphere Politics by Jeremy Rifkin, Person/Planet by Theodore
Roszak, The Resurgence of the Real, by Charlene Spretnak, and In the
Absence of the Sacred, by Jerry Mander.
Ron
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1160.7 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:49:02 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
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charset="iso-8859-1"
) -----Original Message-----
) From: Michael Kopp [mailto:mkopp xtra.co.nz]
)
) Rational, skeptical, scientific people have been asking for
) some evidence
) of these "spiritual beings" for centuries. None that is credible is
) forthcoming.
Michael,
Prove to me that love exists.
Bob
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1160.8 ---------------
From: Tarjei Straume (tastraum online.no)
Subject: Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:08:56 +0100
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References: (199903241803.KAA18356 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903242111.NAA14959 lists1.best.com)
Michael Kopp wrote:
)
)The term "spiritual being" (or, for those who need AUTHORITY in their lives
)and words, and want to invest them with more meaning than they actually
)have, "Spiritual Being") is an oxymoron.
Your remark aboput authority does not apply to anarchists, so I won't
comment that one.
)
)Let me say that again without the parenthetical aside: the term spiritual
)being is an oxymoron.
)
)Being implies corporeality.
Only in your limited definition. Webster's dictionary, for one, is much
more generous. Reference to non-corporeal beings have persisted throughout
history, and they persist today. This use of the word, and other words,
won't go away, regardless of how oxymoronic or meaningless it all seems to
you. And if the endeavor should succeed to limit an expression to the
strictly material realm, a new vocabulary will evolve embracing the
spiritual. There is no point in trying to tell religious and spiritually
oriented individuals not to use the word "being" as applicable also to
non-physical life forms, because you can't kill ideas, especially spiritual
ideas. They just refuse to die.
Cheers,
Tarjei
http://www.uncletaz.com/
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1160.9 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Rudolf Rudolph
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:26:12 -0500
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References: (199903242111.NAA14905 lists1.best.com)
Reefer, and that makes this all.....madness ; )
e
Michael Kopp wrote:
Also known as Saint Rudy (...or is it Rudi? come on, Anthropops, help us
) out here -- what's the preferred spelling of _RudolF_'s diminuitive?)
)
) Cheers from Godzone,
)
) Michael Kopp
) Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1160.10 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: "the good life"
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 17:49:15 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
) -----Original Message-----
) From: Ron Miller [mailto:milleron together.net]
) Thanks, Bob. I don't want to propose a complete dichotomy between
) spiritual and material values. I only wanted to say that our present
) culture is excessively materialistic to the exclusion of other values.
) I would add, however, that most paths that seek enlightenment (or
) whatever we want to call spiritual fulfillment) do emphasize that one
) cannot be too "attached" to worldly things if they really want to
) discover the treasures of the spirit. I think it's a question of
) self-discipline and balance. Aristotle talked about the Good
) being found
) in the golden mean. Are we in the same ballpark on this?
)
) Ron
Yes, we're entirely in the same ballpark. What is experienced as a
hindrance to inner unfolding is the *attachment*, and one can be just as
proud of and attached to self-enforced poverty and asceticism as to material
possessions.
Bob
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1160 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1161 --------------
001 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: "the good life"
002 - Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis - Re: Rudolf Rudolph
003 - Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis - Re: Baltimore school
004 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: "the good life"
005 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: Baltimore school
006 - "MICHAEL RONALL" (mronall - Re: Baltimore school
007 - Tarjei Straume (tastraum - Re: "the good life"
008 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: "the good life"
009 - "MICHAEL RONALL" (mronall - Re: "correct amount" of esoteric ideas
010 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1161.1 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: "the good life"
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:45:50 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
In-Reply-To: (199903242139.NAA06370 lists1.best.com)
On 24 Mar 99, at 16:21, Ron Miller wrote:
) I don't want to propose a complete dichotomy between
) spiritual and material values. I only wanted to say that our present
) culture is excessively materialistic to the exclusion of other values. I
) would add, however, that most paths that seek enlightenment (or whatever
) we want to call spiritual fulfillment) do emphasize that one cannot be too
) "attached" to worldly things if they really want to discover the treasures
) of the spirit. I think it's a question of self-discipline and balance.
) Aristotle talked about the Good being found in the golden mean. Are we in
) the same ballpark on this?
Pretty much. And I do see parts of our culture as excessively
materialistic to the exclusion of other values when I think about
television commercials and so on. On the other hand, when I think
about the people that I know personally, the music that I enjoy, the
books that I like, the Strawberry Music Festival, and so on, things
seem much more balanced.
I do agree, though, that many schools seem to have an insufficient
emphasis on values and ethics. On the other hand, I've seen a
great deal of concern for the environment expressed by grade
school children, so all is not lost.
By the way, I like your posts. With respect to the authoritarian
slant in the Waldorf classroom, my son went from a Waldorf school
in first grade to an alternative public charter school in second
grade. The Waldorf school was much as you describe in your
article, and the current school is much more participatory and
student directed. Dylan is much more interested in school now,
and seems to be doing much better in general.
That school has its own problems: it is a new charter school, in its
first year, and no one involved with the school has much
experience operating a school. It may not survive without more
money and/or parent participation. But we're doing what we can to
help it get off the ground.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"There is a right and a wrong in the Universe and
that distinction is not difficult to make." - Superman
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1161.2 ---------------
From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Rudolf Rudolph
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:12:12 +0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: (199903241523.HAA19581 lists1.best.com)
(199903242111.NAA14905 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903242111.NAA14905 lists1.best.com)
Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz) wrote:
)what's the preferred spelling of _RudolF_'s diminuitive?
The spell-checker in Microsoft Works suggests "Rudely" (g)
Noctis Gaudia Carpe,
Stephen
--
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+ Stephen Tonkin | ATM Resources; Astro-Tutorials; Astronomy Books +
+ (N50.9105 W1.829) | (http://www.aegis1.demon.co.uk) +
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1161.3 ---------------
From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Baltimore school
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:05:23 +0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: (199903241517.HAA17866 lists1.best.com)
(199903241809.KAA22803 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903241809.KAA22803 lists1.best.com)
Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org) wrote:
)What use would black chalk be on a blackish board?
Amongst other things to demonstrate that so-called "black"boards are
grey (or gray on t'other side o't'pond). Personally, I find it bloody
useful. (More so than a white pen on a white board (g))
Noctis Gaudia Carpe,
Stephen
--
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+ Stephen Tonkin | ATM Resources; Astro-Tutorials; Astronomy Books +
+ (N50.9105 W1.829) | (http://www.aegis1.demon.co.uk) +
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1161.4 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: "the good life"
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 15:44:33 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199903241837.KAA12676 lists1.best.com) (199903242139.NAA06370 lists1.best.com)
Please refresh my memory of the Golden Mean. Is this the same as the Golden Ratio of
Pythagoras and his cult?
The Pythagoreans held numbers ratios to be divine, or perhaps 'good' in this more
appropriate in this context.
e
Ron Miller wrote:
) )
) ) ) -----Original Message-----
) ) ) From: Steve Premo [mailto:premo cruzio.com]
)
) ) ) [Steve Premo]
) ) ) You are assuming that material well-being is antithetical to
) ) ) spiritual
) ) ) values. I think that this is wrong. I don't think that our culture
) ) ) necessarily values material success over ethical conduct, but they
) ) ) are rewarded in different ways. Material success is rewarded
) ) ) materially, and ethical conduct and spiritual values are rewarded
) ) ) with peace of mind. It seems to me that most people seek both.
) )
) ) Bob Tolz: I'm sure he can speak for himself, but I didn't read Ron's position
) ) as saying that material well-being is antithetical to spiritual values.
)
) )
) ) Speaking for myself, one of the difficulties I have with
) ) "materially-oriented" education is the lack of an even passing nod to
) ) acknowledge the reverence for life which both you and I share with Ron and
) ) Lisa. It seems to me that with traditional education, the child is often
) ) treated as little more than an information-processing machine, being trained
) ) to perform in the circus of post-graduate life.
) )
) ) Bob
)
) Thanks, Bob. I don't want to propose a complete dichotomy between
) spiritual and material values. I only wanted to say that our present
) culture is excessively materialistic to the exclusion of other values.
) I would add, however, that most paths that seek enlightenment (or
) whatever we want to call spiritual fulfillment) do emphasize that one
) cannot be too "attached" to worldly things if they really want to
) discover the treasures of the spirit. I think it's a question of
) self-discipline and balance. Aristotle talked about the Good being found
) in the golden mean. Are we in the same ballpark on this?
)
) Ron
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1161.5 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Baltimore school
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:18:38 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: (199903241809.KAA22803 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903242339.PAA13704 lists1.best.com)
On 24 Mar 99, at 23:05, Stephen Tonkin wrote:
) Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org) wrote:
) )What use would black chalk be on a blackish board?
)
) Amongst other things to demonstrate that so-called "black"boards are
) grey (or gray on t'other side o't'pond).
I remember a really cool experiment when I was in school which
involved shining a bright light on a black circle in a dark room. We
all thought that the circle was white until the lights came on. It
shows that what we call "black" and "white" are really relative
terms.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"There is a right and a wrong in the Universe and
that distinction is not difficult to make." - Superman
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1161.6 ---------------
From: "MICHAEL RONALL" (mronall rabecker.com)
Subject: Re: Baltimore school
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 19:50:55 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
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Besides, how else would pupils derive the referent for "four-and-twenty blackboards baked into a pie" phenomenologically? /MRx
))) Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk) - 3/24/99 6:05 PM )))
Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org) wrote:
)What use would black chalk be on a blackish board?
Amongst other things to demonstrate that so-called "black"boards are
grey (or gray on t'other side o't'pond). Personally, I find it bloody
useful. (More so than a white pen on a white board (g))
Noctis Gaudia Carpe,
Stephen
--
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+ Stephen Tonkin | ATM Resources; Astro-Tutorials; Astronomy Books +
+ (N50.9105 W1.829) | (http://www.aegis1.demon.co.uk) +
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1161.7 ---------------
From: Tarjei Straume (tastraum online.no)
Subject: Re: "the good life"
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 01:57:39 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199903241837.KAA12676 lists1.best.com)
(199903242139.NAA06370 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903242339.PAA13877 lists1.best.com)
Pythagoras was an initiate, a guru, a spiritualist, a cult leader, a saint
or what have you, and his teaching was about a living, spiritual universe
populated with gods and other spooky non-corporal beings that the WE
critics get so worked up about.
Geometry is infested with pagan religious thoughts, because it comes from
that kind of soil. Any American public school teaching the Pythagorean
theorem or any other mystical mumbo jumbo should be sued for the violation
of church and state.
Pythagoras and Socrates were charlatans using guru tricks on their gullible
twits who admired them. Any true skeptic will testify to that. Geometry and
mathematics should be abandoned, because there are weird and sinister cults
behind it all. I wonder why public school teachers are cunningly misleading
parents about these things.
Cheers,
Tarjei
Ezra wrote:
)Please refresh my memory of the Golden Mean. Is this the same as the
)Golden )Ratio of Pythagoras and his cult?
)The Pythagoreans held numbers ratios to be divine, or perhaps 'good' in
)this )more appropriate in this context.
http://www.uncletaz.com/
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1161.8 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: "the good life"
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 17:08:34 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199903242247.OAA02135 lists1.best.com)
Sounds like a typical Waldorf school story ; )
e
Steve Premo wrote:
) no one involved with the school has much
) experience operating a school. It may not survive without more
) money and/or parent participation. But we're doing what we can to
) help it get off the ground.
)
) Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
) "There is a right and a wrong in the Universe and
) that distinction is not difficult to make." - Superman
) http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1161.9 ---------------
From: "MICHAEL RONALL" (mronall rabecker.com)
Subject: Re: "correct amount" of esoteric ideas
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 20:24:22 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Ron, thank you for your thoughtful response.
You write (inter alia):
)In my repeated attempts to
make sense of Steiner, I have hit a dead end every time because I cannot
grasp many of his key concepts.(
While I do not promise to try (or not to try) to facilitate your attempts, I suspect that I am not the only one on this list who would be interested to know which key concepts you cannot grasp. And I suspect further that you may find some articulate expositors stepping forth. (I'll be away from my screen for a week beginning tomorrow, and will look forward to seeing what accrues!) Best, /MRx (Michael Ronall)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1161.10 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:55:29 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199903242153.NAA16071 lists1.best.com)
)) -----Original Message-----
)) From: Michael Kopp [mailto:mkopp xtra.co.nz]
))
)) Rational, skeptical, scientific people have been asking for
)) some evidence
)) of these "spiritual beings" for centuries. None that is credible is
)) forthcoming.
)
)Michael,
) Prove to me that love exists.
) Bob
I can feel it suffusing every corpuscle and neuron of my "being" every time
I read answers from SWA people to my posts on this list.
Especially ones like yours, recently, that help me reach a state of mental
peace by pointing out that my criticisms of SWA indicate that I am
"paranoid".
And it must exist if the great Anthroposophists on this list can sign their
posts "love, ..."
MK
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1161 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1162 --------------
001 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - Re: Rudolf Rudolph
002 - "ksutphen" (ksutphen jps. - RE: Ron Miller's article on web site
003 - TTeicheira aol.com - Re: Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophy disclosure to parents
004 - TTeicheira aol.com - Re: Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophy disclosure to parents
005 - TTeicheira aol.com - Re: Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophy disclosure to parents
006 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Ron Miller's article on web site
007 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
008 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Admin: list policy (was Re: Baltimore school)
009 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Admin: searching WCA
010 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: PLANS
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1162.1 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: Re: Rudolf Rudolph
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:09:58 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199903242111.NAA14905 lists1.best.com)
(199903241523.HAA19581 lists1.best.com)
(199903242111.NAA14905 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903242339.PAA13640 lists1.best.com)
)Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz) wrote:
))what's the preferred spelling of _RudolF_'s diminuitive?
)
)The spell-checker in Microsoft Works suggests "Rudely" (g)
)
)Noctis Gaudia Carpe,
)Stephen
)
)--
)+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
)+ Stephen Tonkin | ATM Resources; Astro-Tutorials; Astronomy Books +
)+ (N50.9105 W1.829) | (http://www.aegis1.demon.co.uk) +
)+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
That fits. MickeySloth products ARE pretty "rude" -- particularly in the
classical meaning of the word.
MK
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1162.2 ---------------
From: "ksutphen" (ksutphen jps.net)
Subject: RE: Ron Miller's article on web site
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 20:22:39 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Robert Tolz posted:
)
) Speaking for myself, one of the difficulties I have with
)"materially-oriented" education is the lack of an even passing nod to
)acknowledge the reverence for life which both you and I share with Ron and
)Lisa. It seems to me that with traditional education, the child is often
)treated as little more than an information-processing machine, being
trained
)to perform in the circus of post-graduate life.
What is your recent experience with "traditional education"? Are you
referring to elementary school? I take tremendous personal offense to these
types of statements. I am a public school teacher and I have never treated
any of my students as an "information-processing machine," nor have I
perceived that any of my own children's teachers treated them or their
fellow students in this manner. Reverence for life is a thread that runs
through all facets of the curriculum and, once again, I have observed it to
be a common thread in other teacher's classes.
Just cuz it's public don't mean it's bad and nasty.
Unfortunately, I have the found these types of statements to be a common
facet of Waldorf-speak. It's not enough to simply like and feel comfortable
with their own choice of education, somehow they feel compelled to denigrate
what is offered in the public arena as a means to elevate the Waldorf
choice. At times I wonder if this isn't a way in which to feel okay about
spending so much money for Waldorf. I also believe that parents pick up this
habit of denigrating public education from the Waldorf teachers at their
children's schools. This was a common thread when I was enrolled in the
Public School Teacher's Training at Rudolf Steiner College and it is a
mantra on the Waldorf list.
Kathy
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1162.3 ---------------
From: TTeicheira aol.com
Subject: Re: Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophy disclosure to parents
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:57:57 EST
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
please unsubscribe me
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1162.4 ---------------
From: TTeicheira aol.com
Subject: Re: Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophy disclosure to parents
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:57:38 EST
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
please unsubscribe me
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1162.5 ---------------
From: TTeicheira aol.com
Subject: Re: Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophy disclosure to parents
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:57:02 EST
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
please unsubscribe me. thanks
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1162.6 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Ron Miller's article on web site
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 00:53:47 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
) -----Original Message-----
) From: ksutphen [mailto:ksutphen jps.net]
) Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 11:23 PM
) To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
) Subject: RE: Ron Miller's article on web site
)
)
) Robert Tolz posted:
) )
) ) Speaking for myself, one of the difficulties I have with
) )"materially-oriented" education is the lack of an even passing nod to
) )acknowledge the reverence for life which both you and I
) share with Ron and
) )Lisa. It seems to me that with traditional education, the
) child is often
) )treated as little more than an information-processing machine, being
) trained
) )to perform in the circus of post-graduate life.
) [Kathy]
) What is your recent experience with "traditional education"? Are you
) referring to elementary school? I take tremendous personal
) offense to these
) types of statements. I am a public school teacher and I have
) never treated
) any of my students as an "information-processing machine," nor have I
) perceived that any of my own children's teachers treated them or their
) fellow students in this manner. Reverence for life is a
) thread that runs
) through all facets of the curriculum and, once again, I have
) observed it to
) be a common thread in other teacher's classes.
Then I applaud you Kathy, and I applaud the teachers who you have
observed to maintain a similar reverence for life viewpoint within the
curriculum.
) Just cuz it's public don't mean it's bad and nasty.
Public or private has nothing to do with my feelings. Read my
comments again. Never did I use the word "public." I was using the word
"traditional." My complaints apply equally to private as well as public
"traditional" education.
) Unfortunately, I have the found these types of statements to
) be a common facet of Waldorf-speak. It's not enough to simply like and
) feel comfortable with their own choice of education, somehow they feel
) compelled to denigrate what is offered in the public arena as a means
) to elevate the Waldorf choice. At times I wonder if this isn't a way
) in which to feel okay about spending so much money for Waldorf.
Your comments continue to misconstrue my own. My problem is with
traditional education, not public education. Shucks, if my local public
school district were to start up a Waldorf charter school, I might just
high-tail it back into the public arena (unless PLANS gets there first, of
course). Your comments might be persuasive if I valued all private schools
above all public schools, but I don't. In fact, I'd sooner have my kids go
to public schools for the more varied demographics than to enroll them in a
private school that fails to address my concerns. Frankly, I believe that
most private schools would fail my test.
) I also believe that parents pick up this habit of denigrating
) public education from the Waldorf teachers at their children's schools.
I don't hang around the Waldorf teachers nearly enough to absorb
their particular views. Besides, for the life of me, I can't recall a
single instance in which I heard one of the teachers criticize public
schools.
) This was a common thread when I was enrolled in the
) Public School Teacher's Training at Rudolf Steiner College
) and it is a mantra on the Waldorf list.
Interestingly, I subscribed to the general Waldorf list ages ago,
but haven't read anything from it in ages and will probably unsubscribe.
It's simply not nearly as entertaining as this list.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1162.7 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 00:59:45 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
) -----Original Message-----
) From: Michael Kopp [mailto:mkopp xtra.co.nz]
) )Michael,
) ) Prove to me that love exists.
) ) Bob
)
) I can feel it suffusing every corpuscle and neuron of my
) "being" every time
) I read answers from SWA people to my posts on this list.
Sorry, that's insufficient prove. Give me something tangible and
measurable.
)
) Especially ones like yours, recently, that help me reach a
) state of mental
) peace by pointing out that my criticisms of SWA indicate that I am
) "paranoid".
Since when have I ever suggested you are paranoid?
Bob
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1162.8 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Admin: list policy (was Re: Baltimore school)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 00:17:57 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199903222311.PAA25457 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903230054.QAA26623 lists1.best.com)
)Steve, you wrote:
)
)) Well, yes, and also for former Waldorf parents, anthroposophists,
)) Waldorf teachers, Waldorf graduates, and anyone else who would
)) would like to discuss Waldorf education from a critical perspective.
)
)Maybe Dan, as moderator of the "waldorf-critics" E-mail Mailing List
)agrees with you.
)But after a discussion on another list, on the purpose of that list, I
)have a slightly bad conscience about participating on this list as what
)Dan actually describes as the purpose of the list is for it to be a "A
)networking resource for parents, teachers, school boards and reporters
)interested in Waldorf education, as viewed from outside the cult of
)Rudolf Steiner."
)
)I would take that as meaning that it is meant to be a source of
)information about Waldorf education
)received by
)- parents of children (prospective or actual), teachers and school
)boards of Waldorf or non-Waldorf schools, and reporters and
)given,
)- _not_ by people who _do_ look at WE as participants in "the cult of
)Rudolf Steiner", probably meant to say as "anthroposophists" in some
)sense, but by
)- people who _do not_ look at WE from "inside" anthroposophy, but who
)describe WE out of a perspective of looking at anthroposophy as a "cult
)of Rudolf Steiner"
)
)So, taken literally, the purpose of the list, as I understand it, does
)not include or welcome "anthroposophists" in any sense, defending
)anthroposophy, as intended participants of the discussion.
That's right, but don't confuse an intention with a rule. This list was
founded as an open forum by necessity, because the "official" Waldorf list
censors discussion by banning people who are too critical of Waldorf and
Anthroposophy. So we have an atmosphere of freedom and tolerance here,
including tolerating raving Anthroposophists, as long as they stay on topic
and avoid ad hominems.
Dan Dugan
Moderator
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1162.9 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Admin: searching WCA
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 00:45:50 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (3.0.5.32.19990324113100.007cd100 frontiernet.net)
A correspondent has pointed out that the Waldorf Critics Archive is
searchable in Alta Vista. Just type in:
Waldorf Critics Archive+subject
Example:
Waldorf Critics Archive+the heart is not a pump
Be sure you have enough memory allocated to your browser to accomodate the
huge archive file that will load when you click on any of the AltaVista
links. After it's loaded, use your browser's find command to find the
subject in the file.
-Dan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1162.10 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: PLANS
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 01:38:09 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (4abe30bd.36f965fb aol.com)
This message was received from the PLANS web site:
)Dear Mr. Dugan
)After having thoroughly examined your various websites and links that are
)critical of Waldorf Education, I find them to be inaccurate distortions of a
)flawed but essentially positive educational movement.
Or maybe they're accurate distortions of an essentially flawed movement? (g)
)It is you who have an
)agenda-to waste time and energy (not to mention $$$ from "Angels" how ironic!)
)fighting against education rather than using it to better education in this
)country. Why doesn't your organization work to improve conditions in public
)schools: such as poor teacher salary, lack to funding for schools, lack to
)materials, school supplies, and lack of vision in general regarding education?
We agree about those problems, but we are working on a different problem.
)I agree that "Public Waldorf" schools are not a good idea but the public
)school as such are also indoctrinating children with an unscientific, market-
)driven, technology-driven, inhuman curriculum.
Please visit your local public school's first grade, and take the teacher
to lunch. Afterward tell me if you still think the school is "market
driven, technology-driven, inhuman..." I'll bet you'll find a person who's
just as idealistic as you are.
)Look at many of the political
)and social problems in the world and you can see the products of this
)indoctrination by the public school system.
I see political and social problems resulting from indoctrination by
Christian schools, Muslim schools... there aren't enough Waldorf schools to
have a visible effect. How about a study of the graduates of the first
Waldorf school? How many became Nazis, compared with, say, Catholic school
graduates at the same time?
)Waldorf is not the answer but
)what is you contribution to help the world? As a critic? Any 12 year-old can
)criticize something and find its flaws and rip it apart ignoring is benefits
)and thus throw the baby out with the bathwater. Is that your legacy? You call
)yourselves objective but you seem very spiteful and arrogant to me.
)
)Sincerely, Jeremiah Turner
I agree it's easier to destroy than to build. We're not out to destroy
Waldorf, just to put it in its proper place: paying its own way and
teaching children of families who agree with the Anthroposophical
world-view.
Sincerely, Dan Dugan
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1162 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1163 --------------
001 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
002 - Ron Miller (milleron toge - Re: "the good life"
003 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
004 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
005 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
006 - arthurw synapsys.co.za (A - RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
007 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
008 - Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis - Re: Baltimore school
009 - Tarjei Straume (tastraum - RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
010 - "J.A. van der Valk" (avdv - remove
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1163.1 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 20:29:24 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199903250555.VAA07192 lists1.best.com)
)) -----Original Message-----
)) From: Michael Kopp [mailto:mkopp xtra.co.nz]
)
)) )Michael,
)) ) Prove to me that love exists.
)) ) Bob
))
)) I can feel it suffusing every corpuscle and neuron of my
)) "being" every time
)) I read answers from SWA people to my posts on this list.
)
) Sorry, that's insufficient prove. Give me something tangible and
)measurable.
My evidence is as tangible as Saint Rudi's was for his reading of the
"Askashic Record" or his "clairvoyant" views of "higher worlds".
Now I wonder why I can't convince you to _belieeevve_ in ME?
You want maybe galvanic skin response, blood pressure, heart rate, and a
nuclear magnetic resonance scan of my brain at the moment I open my email
from you and the rest of the SWA crowd?
)
))
)) Especially ones like yours, recently, that help me reach a
)) state of mental
)) peace by pointing out that my criticisms of SWA indicate that I am
)) "paranoid".
)
) Since when have I ever suggested you are paranoid?
)
) Bob
I do most profoundly apologize to Robert Tolz. I must be getting paranoid.
The actual utterer of the diagnosis of my psychological condition was
Tolz's twin, Robert Flannery:
)From: Robert Flannery (litvas icu.com)
)Subject: Re: Steiner Waldorf Anthroposophy false advertising (Was Re:
) critics list)
)Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 06:42:43 -0500
)BestServHost: lists.best.com
)MIME-Version: 1.0
)Sender: waldorf-critics-errors lists.best.com
)Reply-To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
)To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
)
)Michael Kopp is veering into conspiracy theory:
)
))It's simple, Bruce: you have an international code of conduct of the
))Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthrosposophical (SWA) movement and its various
))associations and parts, which specifies exactly what and in what language
))any school that uses the trademark names must tell parents before they
))enroll.
)
)I understand that Michael feels duped.
)
)The statement quoted above, coupled with Michael's earlier comments about
)institutionalized mind control, lead me to conclude that paranoia has
)infiltrated whatever perspective Michael usually operates with.
)
)
)Robert Flannery
)New York
)litvas icu.com
Well, in my experience, when I feel paranoid, there's usually good reason.
However, let me reassure the SWA mafia that they have not succeeded in
breaking me down, and I do not feel paranoid about their continued attacks.
Erm, um, you guys ARE trying to break me and make me feel paranoid, aintcha?
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1163.2 ---------------
From: Ron Miller (milleron together.net)
Subject: Re: "the good life"
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:32:53 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199903241837.KAA12676 lists1.best.com) (199903242139.NAA06370 lists1.best.com) (199903242339.PAA13877 lists1.best.com)
Ezra Beeman wrote:
)
) Please refresh my memory of the Golden Mean. Is this the same as the Golden Ratio of
) Pythagoras and his cult?
RM: No. Aristotle's philosophy of ethics simply held that moderation
is the highest virtue-- in this view, extremism (in the pursuit of
liberty or any other single value) is an unbalanced attitude. There is
always a"golden mean" between extreme, polarized positions.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1163.3 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:29:27 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
) [TOLZ]) )Michael,
) ) ) Prove to me that love exists.
) ) ) Bob
) )
) ) [KOPP]I can feel it suffusing every corpuscle and neuron of my
) ) "being" every time
) ) I read answers from SWA people to my posts on this list.
)
) [TOLZ] Sorry, that's insufficient prove. Give me something
) tangible and
) measurable.
Oops. Make that "proof." Serves me right for staying up past my
bedtime.
But seriously, Michael, how would you prove to someone the existence
of an intangible which you know exists?
Bob
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1163.4 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:51:07 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
) -----Original Message-----
) From: Michael Kopp [mailto:mkopp xtra.co.nz]
)
) My evidence is as tangible as Saint Rudi's was for his reading of the
) "Askashic Record" or his "clairvoyant" views of "higher worlds".
That's exactly my point. The anthroposophical people have not
proved to either you or to me anything about Rudolf Steiner's clairvoyance
or the higher worlds. Nor can you prove to me or I prove to you any
intangible inner state that you or I experience.
) Now I wonder why I can't convince you to _belieeevve_ in ME?
)
) You want maybe galvanic skin response, blood pressure, heart
) rate, and a
) nuclear magnetic resonance scan of my brain at the moment I
) open my email
) from you and the rest of the SWA crowd?
Assume for the moment that you are not being flippant when you say
you have great feelings of love when you read something on this list from
someone who is a Waldorf Critic Critic. Your galvanic skin response and
blood pressure reports would show that you are experiencing a reaction.
They would not prove to me what your inner state is. You tell me you are
experiencing love for your comrades on the list when you open the mail, and
that your medical records prove it. I suspect the medical records would not
be able to establish anything of the sort, and I also suspect you would
agree with me about that.
So, if you recognize that you cannot scientifically prove to me that
you experience the intangible quality of love, or any other intangible inner
state for that matter, it seems a bit much for you to require scientific
proof from the anthroposophists about what they believe to be the nature of
reality. I may not buy into what they have to say about reality, but I
don't think I need to have them prove it to me, nor do I think that they
could.
) )
) ) Since when have I ever suggested you are paranoid?
) )
) ) Bob
)
) I do most profoundly apologize to Robert Tolz. I must be
) getting paranoid.
) The actual utterer of the diagnosis of my psychological condition was
) Tolz's twin, Robert Flannery
You mean my *evil* twin. Actually, I've met Robert Flannery, and
neither does he look the least bit like me, nor does he appear at first
glance to be evil.
)
) However, let me reassure the SWA mafia that they have not succeeded in
) breaking me down, and I do not feel paranoid about their
) continued attacks.
) Erm, um, you guys ARE trying to break me and make me feel
) paranoid, aintcha?
I knew you hadn't lost your sense of humor completely.
Bob
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1163.5 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:44:54 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
In-Reply-To: (199903251649.IAA23303 lists1.best.com)
On 25 Mar 99, at 11:51, Tolz, Robert wrote:
) So, if you recognize that you cannot scientifically prove to me that you
) experience the intangible quality of love, or any other intangible inner
) state for that matter, it seems a bit much for you to require scientific
) proof from the anthroposophists about what they believe to be the nature
) of reality. I may not buy into what they have to say about reality, but I
) don't think I need to have them prove it to me, nor do I think that they
) could.
Mind if I jump in?
I agree that we should not require scientific proof regarding
anyone's spiritual or religious beliefs. Since this is an area that is
not susceptible to such proofs, the lack of proof does not mean
that they are wrong.
But anthroposophy goes farther, by claiming that the nature of
spiritual reality can be proved scientifically, and that Steiner has
done so. I do have a problem with this claim.
Also, when spiritual insight and clairvoyance are used to ascertain
truths about the physical world, those matters can be tested. My
impression is that by ignoring the great weight of scientific opinion
and clinging to a few studies in anthroposophical journals and
fringe science publications, many in the anthroposophical
community are able to convince themselves that Steiner's
proclamations about the nature of physical reality are accurate.
Of course, that's no different from those who hold "new age" beliefs
about pyramids, crystals, and the like.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"There is a right and a wrong in the Universe and
that distinction is not difficult to make." - Superman
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1163.6 ---------------
From: arthurw synapsys.co.za (Arthur Williamson)
Subject: RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 20:07:41 +0200
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In-Reply-To: (199903251625.IAA09448 lists1.best.com)
.
[BOB] But seriously, Michael, how would you prove to someone the existence
of an intangible which you know exists?
You can't really.
There is a little-known craft (carefully selected word) called "Philosophy",
now largely abandoned, which wrestles with this problem.
It's rather axiomatic, really. Much like all points on a circle's
circumference are equidistant from centrepoint, even though no "true" circle
may actually exist in the "real" universe.
Since our language is a symbol system inextricably bound up with the
space-time system, we can't get away from its corporeality.
The words are very, very difficult: what does "know" mean? "Prove" is
problematic, as is "existence". About the least difficult word is
"intangible". Sooner or later we either deconstruct to nothingness, or
lapse into platonic forms, or some other "essence" or "substance" where our
space-time language fails. However, neither of these "disproves" intangible
being. So we're left in our corners, with little hope of real dialogue.
Hopefully we won't end up hurling high explosives at one another...
Arthur
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1163.7 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:17:54 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
) -----Original Message-----
) From: Steve Premo [mailto:premo cruzio.com]
)
) Mind if I jump in?
)
) I agree that we should not require scientific proof regarding
) anyone's spiritual or religious beliefs. Since this is an
) area that is
) not susceptible to such proofs, the lack of proof does not mean
) that they are wrong.
)
) But anthroposophy goes farther, by claiming that the nature of
) spiritual reality can be proved scientifically, and that Steiner has
) done so. I do have a problem with this claim.
)
) Also, when spiritual insight and clairvoyance are used to ascertain
) truths about the physical world, those matters can be tested. My
) impression is that by ignoring the great weight of scientific opinion
) and clinging to a few studies in anthroposophical journals and
) fringe science publications, many in the anthroposophical
) community are able to convince themselves that Steiner's
) proclamations about the nature of physical reality are accurate.
)
I believe we are in agreement.
If there is an inner state in question, that is not testable. The
absence of proof does not mean they are wrong.
If something is held to be true concerning a physical reality, then
I presume that someone could design a proper experiment to test it.
I'm not familiar with what theories anthroposophists believe that
Rudolf Steiner proved to be true, and which are testable, but which are not
generally accepted by mainstream science. I cannot quarrel with any
suggestion made by Michael Kopp or any other Waldorf Critic that a testable
hypothesis cannot be given much weight unless experimental evidence supports
it.
However, I do have problems when anybody says that the existence of
spiritual beings is hogwash because there's no scientific proof being
offered. I don't happen to have any experience myself with such things, but
I can't say that an anthroposophist who tells me that they believe it to be
true is wrong, and I don't think it's appropriate for me to demand
scientific proof.
Bob
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1163.8 ---------------
From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Baltimore school
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 06:44:25 +0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: (199903241809.KAA22803 lists1.best.com)
(199903242339.PAA13704 lists1.best.com)
(199903250021.QAA19287 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903250021.QAA19287 lists1.best.com)
Steve Premo (premo cruzio.com) wrote:
)It
)shows that what we call "black" and "white" are really relative
)terms.
Indeed, and there is also an increasing inability (it seems to me) to be
able to distinguish between the physical and the sociological use of the
words.
Noctis Gaudia Carpe,
Stephen
--
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+ Stephen Tonkin | ATM Resources; Astro-Tutorials; Astronomy Books +
+ (N50.9105 W1.829) | (http://www.aegis1.demon.co.uk) +
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1163.9 ---------------
From: Tarjei Straume (tastraum online.no)
Subject: RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 19:35:31 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199903251649.IAA23303 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903251747.JAA29724 lists1.best.com)
Steve Premo wrote:
)
)I agree that we should not require scientific proof regarding
)anyone's spiritual or religious beliefs. Since this is an area that is
)not susceptible to such proofs, the lack of proof does not mean
)that they are wrong.
)
)But anthroposophy goes farther, by claiming that the nature of
)spiritual reality can be proved scientifically, and that Steiner has
)done so. I do have a problem with this claim.
I don't know how many times I have stressed that anthroposophy represents
cultural heresy, and its definition of science to include the exploration
of the spiritual, which can only be accepted by those who accept the
spiritual as an objective reality, is one of the key issues here. Nobody
who finds this broadened definition of science ingigestible is asked to
accept it. For those who *are* prepared to accept it if the arguments are
sufficiently convincing, I recommend Rudolf Steiner's doctoral thesis of
1892, "Truth and Knowledge" or "Truth and Science" ("Wahrheit und
Wissenschaft"), followed by "A Theory of Knowledge Implicit in Goethe's
World Conception" of 1886. These works provide the epistemological basis
for the anthroposophical definition of science, and they're available
online.
)
)Also, when spiritual insight and clairvoyance are used to ascertain
)truths about the physical world, those matters can be tested. My
)impression is that by ignoring the great weight of scientific opinion
)and clinging to a few studies in anthroposophical journals and
)fringe science publications, many in the anthroposophical
)community are able to convince themselves that Steiner's
)proclamations about the nature of physical reality are accurate.
Those are people who read only what Steiner has said about certain
scientific fields without following up this insight with appropriate
literature. But I have no idea how few or how many those people might be. I
don't think I have seen any posts to anthroposophically oriented lists by
such people so far.
Cheers,
Tarjei
http://www.uncletaz.com/
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1163.10 ---------------
From: "J.A. van der Valk" (avdv wxs.nl)
Subject: remove
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 08:41:28 +0100
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--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1163 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1164 --------------
001 - Michael Hirsch (hirsch ma - RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
002 - MomOf2Gals aol.com - Learn before you leap/races in SWA
003 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
004 - Ellie Javadi (javadi aspe - How do I unsubscribe?
005 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Assumptions
006 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Admin: list policy (was Re: Baltimore school)
007 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
008 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: The Clarity Impulse
009 - Tarjei Straume (tastraum - Re: Admin: list policy (was Re: Baltimore school)
010 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Spiritual science, natural science and society (was Re: Anthro
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1164.1 ---------------
From: Michael Hirsch (hirsch mathcs.emory.edu)
Subject: RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:08:12 -0500 (EST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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In-Reply-To: (99101293 toto.iv)
Tolz, Robert writes:
)
) If there is an inner state in question, that is not testable. The
) absence of proof does not mean they are wrong.
)
) If something is held to be true concerning a physical reality, then
) I presume that someone could design a proper experiment to test it.
)
) I'm not familiar with what theories anthroposophists believe that
) Rudolf Steiner proved to be true, and which are testable, but which are not
) generally accepted by mainstream science. I cannot quarrel with any
) suggestion made by Michael Kopp or any other Waldorf Critic that a testable
) hypothesis cannot be given much weight unless experimental evidence supports
) it.
)
) However, I do have problems when anybody says that the existence of
) spiritual beings is hogwash because there's no scientific proof being
) offered. I don't happen to have any experience myself with such things, but
) I can't say that an anthroposophist who tells me that they believe it to be
) true is wrong, and I don't think it's appropriate for me to demand
) scientific proof.
How do you feel about calling the study of such an untestable subject
"scientific" or "spiritual science"? That is my objection--I don't
care that it isn't science except when they try to claim the mantle of
science.
--Michael
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1164.2 ---------------
From: MomOf2Gals aol.com
Subject: Learn before you leap/races in SWA
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:10:37 EST
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Waldorf Critics and -- dare I say, it? -- Enthusiasts!
I LOVE this list. I also am on the Steiner98 list, and I am way out of my
depth there. The discussions are much more esoteric, and I am not
knowledgeable enough about them to even participate. But this list is so much
better. Thanks to whoever created it.
I am, I must admit, surprised and a bit shocked at the level of anger and
outrage that seem to be coming from some people who post here. My surprise
comes from the fact that these people were themselves surprised and shocked
after enrolling their kids in a Waldorf school and then discovering (in that
order!) that the schools were based on anthroposophy. Gee, I would have
thought that was a basic fact that would have been obvious upon doing even the
most basic research on any private or independent school one might consider
enrolling one's child in!!!
My children's school makes no secret of its anthroposophical origins -- in
fact, the underpinning philosophy is mentioned in all literature associated
with the school's informational packet, and numerous opportunities are given
to parents to join anthroposophical study groups, festival groups and the
like! No one feels forced to do so or an outcast for not doing so, but the
opportunities are there. My surprise comes usually from the fact that more
parents don't seem even INTERESTED in the school's philosophical basis --
these people just treat the school as any other independent school that is an
alternative to Baltimore City's failing public school system.
As for whether or not Waldorf schools should hand out that lengthy
explanation crafted by one of this list's participants, disclosing the
anthroposophical nature of the school and its adherent's belief in
reincarnation and karma, well, do other independent schools hand out
statements saying that they treat their students as if they have NO SPIRITUAL
NATURE, etc. etc.? Do Catholic schools set out the tenets of Catholicism in
their literature, etc? You will answer, of course, that people would expect at
Catholic school to provide a Catholic education. Well, I would counter that
any parent who bothers to educate him or herself even basically would
understand that a Waldorf school educates on the basis of anthroposophy!
That's what a Waldorf school is!!! Why that should surprise anyone surprises
me. But then, I am assuming that parents who care enough to seek out special,
independent schools and pay for them also take the time to thoroughly educate
themselves about the educational philosophy of the school
I have been told that there are whole communities where anthropops have
``taken over'' -- an example being some village in Wisconsin. ``Taken over''?
Such a choice of words implies the use of force. I think the writer meant that
a group of like-minded people have chosen to live together in that community,
to operate businesses there and create a school there that jived with their
sensibilities. Why is this any different, or somehow more unacceptable, than
any community dense in a particular religion or ethnicity? In Baltimore, we
have a section of the city called Little Italy where many people of Italian
descent live, work and run businesses. No one seems to think that is
suspicious, weird or odd. Why should the same not be true of people who,
because they embrace a certain worldview or religion (should you want to call
it that), choose to live in proximity and work together? I think it's a find
idea. I think we should all be free to live and work where we want, and where
we feel comfortable.
As to the fact that Waldorf teachers believe in reincarnation, etc. -- well,
I personally have no problem with that (it's a spiritual system that makes
great sense to me, and is in fact supported by many Biblical scholars as being
consistent with the Bible). But even if you do have a problem with it, be
assured your child is not learning reincarnation as a fact in the classroom. I
brought the subject up one day with my 3rd grader, when our neighbor died. I
told her that I believed that Mrs. White would be reborn someday as a baby, to
travel the road of life again and learn more and more. MY daughters was
astonished. She had never heard of that idea. I don't see where the religion
of the person teaching my child should be any of my business, when you get
right down to it, so long as that teacher does not force that dogma onto my
child. (In the case of WE, however, many of us choose that education BECAUSE
our beliefs jive with those of the teachers, presuming they do have those
beliefs.)
I guess my astonishment basically comes from the fact that a parent would not
have already investigated the underpinnings of WE before enrolling. I also am
surprised at how suspicious some people on this list sound: Do you really
think the schools try to hide their true nature until they get your vulnerable
children in their evil clutches, and then try to convert them to some occult
weirdness that includes lighting candles and thanking Nature for our food
before we have snack?? C'mon!!!!
Well, it's obvious where my sympathies lie. I think we need more schools that
respect children the way my children are respected and nurtured at their
Waldorf school.
*** One thing I wish someone would answer: I have never heard the bit about
anthroposophy's view on the races of humanity. One of my daughters is Chinese.
What, in a nutshell, is the supposed view on the evolutionary spirituality of
the different races, and how would I expect this to effect how my Asian
daughter is viewed anthroposophically, versus how my homemade ``white''
daughter is viewed?
-- Respectfully submitted by Lisa in Baltimore-
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1164.3 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:20:38 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199903250947.BAA06236 lists1.best.com)
Since most stipulate to love's existence without ridicule, and love's proof is,
by your own pen, as intangible as proof of RS's stipulations, it seems to me SWA
believers should be afforded the same treatment as those who believe in love.
Do you treat your wife, who I will presuppose loves you, the with the same scorn
you treat SWA people? If not, why the inconsistency?
Inconsistency is, as you know, the bane of all logical and scientific endeavors.
Perhaps you might align your actions in a consistent manner and either treat
your wife as you treat people here, or better yet, treat SWA people as you treat
your wife. ; )
e
Michael Kopp wrote:
) )) )Michael,
) )) ) Prove to me that love exists.
) )) ) Bob
) ))
) )) I can feel it suffusing every corpuscle and neuron of my
) )) "being" every time
) )) I read answers from SWA people to my posts on this list.
) )
) ) Sorry, that's insufficient prove. Give me something tangible and
) )measurable.
)
) My evidence is as tangible as Saint Rudi's was for his reading of the
) "Askashic Record" or his "clairvoyant" views of "higher worlds".
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1164.4 ---------------
From: Ellie Javadi (javadi aspectdv.com)
Subject: How do I unsubscribe?
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:21:05 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199903251841.KAA02246 lists1.best.com)
At 10:41 AM 3/25/99 -0800, you wrote:
)
)-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1163 --------------
)
) 001 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
) 002 - Ron Miller (milleron toge - Re: "the good life"
) 003 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
) 004 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
) 005 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
) 006 - arthurw synapsys.co.za (A - RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
) 007 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
) 008 - Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis - Re: Baltimore school
) 009 - Tarjei Straume (tastraum - RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
) 010 - "J.A. van der Valk" (avdv - remove
)
)--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1163.1 ---------------
)
)From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
)Subject: RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
)Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 20:29:24 +1200
)MIME-Version: 1.0
)Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
)In-Reply-To: (199903250555.VAA07192 lists1.best.com)
)
))) -----Original Message-----
))) From: Michael Kopp [mailto:mkopp xtra.co.nz]
))
))) )Michael,
))) ) Prove to me that love exists.
))) ) Bob
)))
))) I can feel it suffusing every corpuscle and neuron of my
))) "being" every time
))) I read answers from SWA people to my posts on this list.
))
)) Sorry, that's insufficient prove. Give me something tangible and
))measurable.
)
)My evidence is as tangible as Saint Rudi's was for his reading of the
)"Askashic Record" or his "clairvoyant" views of "higher worlds".
)
)Now I wonder why I can't convince you to _belieeevve_ in ME?
)
)You want maybe galvanic skin response, blood pressure, heart rate, and a
)nuclear magnetic resonance scan of my brain at the moment I open my email
)from you and the rest of the SWA crowd?
)
))
)))
))) Especially ones like yours, recently, that help me reach a
))) state of mental
))) peace by pointing out that my criticisms of SWA indicate that I am
))) "paranoid".
))
)) Since when have I ever suggested you are paranoid?
))
)) Bob
)
)I do most profoundly apologize to Robert Tolz. I must be getting paranoid.
)The actual utterer of the diagnosis of my psychological condition was
)Tolz's twin, Robert Flannery:
)
))From: Robert Flannery (litvas icu.com)
))Subject: Re: Steiner Waldorf Anthroposophy false advertising (Was Re:
)) critics list)
))Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 06:42:43 -0500
))BestServHost: lists.best.com
))MIME-Version: 1.0
))Sender: waldorf-critics-errors lists.best.com
))Reply-To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
))To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
))
))Michael Kopp is veering into conspiracy theory:
))
)))It's simple, Bruce: you have an international code of conduct of the
)))Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthrosposophical (SWA) movement and its various
)))associations and parts, which specifies exactly what and in what language
)))any school that uses the trademark names must tell parents before they
)))enroll.
))
))I understand that Michael feels duped.
))
))The statement quoted above, coupled with Michael's earlier comments about
))institutionalized mind control, lead me to conclude that paranoia has
))infiltrated whatever perspective Michael usually operates with.
))
))
))Robert Flannery
))New York
))litvas icu.com
)
)Well, in my experience, when I feel paranoid, there's usually good reason.
)
)However, let me reassure the SWA mafia that they have not succeeded in
)breaking me down, and I do not feel paranoid about their continued attacks.
)Erm, um, you guys ARE trying to break me and make me feel paranoid, aintcha?
)
)
)Cheers from Godzone,
)
)Michael Kopp
)Wellington, New Zealand
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1163.2 ---------------
)
)From: Ron Miller (milleron together.net)
)Subject: Re: "the good life"
)Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:32:53 -0500
)MIME-Version: 1.0
)Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
)Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
)References: (199903241837.KAA12676 lists1.best.com)
(199903242139.NAA06370 lists1.best.com)
(199903242339.PAA13877 lists1.best.com)
)
)Ezra Beeman wrote:
))
)) Please refresh my memory of the Golden Mean. Is this the same as the
Golden Ratio of
)) Pythagoras and his cult?
)
)
)RM: No. Aristotle's philosophy of ethics simply held that moderation
)is the highest virtue-- in this view, extremism (in the pursuit of
)liberty or any other single value) is an unbalanced attitude. There is
)always a"golden mean" between extreme, polarized positions.
)
)
)
)
)--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1163.3 ---------------
)
)From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
)Subject: RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
)Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:29:27 -0500
)MIME-Version: 1.0
)Content-Type: text/plain;
) charset="iso-8859-1"
)
)
)
)) [TOLZ]) )Michael,
)) ) ) Prove to me that love exists.
)) ) ) Bob
)) )
)) ) [KOPP]I can feel it suffusing every corpuscle and neuron of my
)) ) "being" every time
)) ) I read answers from SWA people to my posts on this list.
))
)) [TOLZ] Sorry, that's insufficient prove. Give me something
)) tangible and
)) measurable.
)
) Oops. Make that "proof." Serves me right for staying up past my
)bedtime.
)
) But seriously, Michael, how would you prove to someone the existence
)of an intangible which you know exists?
)
) Bob
)
)
)--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1163.4 ---------------
)
)From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
)Subject: RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
)Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:51:07 -0500
)MIME-Version: 1.0
)Content-Type: text/plain;
) charset="iso-8859-1"
)
)) -----Original Message-----
)) From: Michael Kopp [mailto:mkopp xtra.co.nz]
)
))
)) My evidence is as tangible as Saint Rudi's was for his reading of the
)) "Askashic Record" or his "clairvoyant" views of "higher worlds".
)
) That's exactly my point. The anthroposophical people have not
)proved to either you or to me anything about Rudolf Steiner's clairvoyance
)or the higher worlds. Nor can you prove to me or I prove to you any
)intangible inner state that you or I experience.
)
)) Now I wonder why I can't convince you to _belieeevve_ in ME?
))
)) You want maybe galvanic skin response, blood pressure, heart
)) rate, and a
)) nuclear magnetic resonance scan of my brain at the moment I
)) open my email
)) from you and the rest of the SWA crowd?
)
) Assume for the moment that you are not being flippant when you say
)you have great feelings of love when you read something on this list from
)someone who is a Waldorf Critic Critic. Your galvanic skin response and
)blood pressure reports would show that you are experiencing a reaction.
)They would not prove to me what your inner state is. You tell me you are
)experiencing love for your comrades on the list when you open the mail, and
)that your medical records prove it. I suspect the medical records would not
)be able to establish anything of the sort, and I also suspect you would
)agree with me about that.
)
) So, if you recognize that you cannot scientifically prove to me that
)you experience the intangible quality of love, or any other intangible inner
)state for that matter, it seems a bit much for you to require scientific
)proof from the anthroposophists about what they believe to be the nature of
)reality. I may not buy into what they have to say about reality, but I
)don't think I need to have them prove it to me, nor do I think that they
)could.
)
)
)) )
)) ) Since when have I ever suggested you are paranoid?
)) )
)) ) Bob
))
)) I do most profoundly apologize to Robert Tolz. I must be
)) getting paranoid.
)) The actual utterer of the diagnosis of my psychological condition was
)) Tolz's twin, Robert Flannery
)
) You mean my *evil* twin. Actually, I've met Robert Flannery, and
)neither does he look the least bit like me, nor does he appear at first
)glance to be evil.
)
))
)) However, let me reassure the SWA mafia that they have not succeeded in
)) breaking me down, and I do not feel paranoid about their
)) continued attacks.
)) Erm, um, you guys ARE trying to break me and make me feel
)) paranoid, aintcha?
)
) I knew you hadn't lost your sense of humor completely.
)
) Bob
)
)
)--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1163.5 ---------------
)
)From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
)Subject: RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
)Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:44:54 -0700
)MIME-Version: 1.0
)Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
)Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
)In-Reply-To: (199903251649.IAA23303 lists1.best.com)
)
)On 25 Mar 99, at 11:51, Tolz, Robert wrote:
)
)) So, if you recognize that you cannot scientifically prove to me that you
)) experience the intangible quality of love, or any other intangible inner
)) state for that matter, it seems a bit much for you to require scientific
)) proof from the anthroposophists about what they believe to be the nature
)) of reality. I may not buy into what they have to say about reality, but I
)) don't think I need to have them prove it to me, nor do I think that they
)) could.
)
)Mind if I jump in?
)
)I agree that we should not require scientific proof regarding
)anyone's spiritual or religious beliefs. Since this is an area that is
)not susceptible to such proofs, the lack of proof does not mean
)that they are wrong.
)
)But anthroposophy goes farther, by claiming that the nature of
)spiritual reality can be proved scientifically, and that Steiner has
)done so. I do have a problem with this claim.
)
)Also, when spiritual insight and clairvoyance are used to ascertain
)truths about the physical world, those matters can be tested. My
)impression is that by ignoring the great weight of scientific opinion
)and clinging to a few studies in anthroposophical journals and
)fringe science publications, many in the anthroposophical
)community are able to convince themselves that Steiner's
)proclamations about the nature of physical reality are accurate.
)
)Of course, that's no different from those who hold "new age" beliefs
)about pyramids, crystals, and the like.
)
)
)Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
)"There is a right and a wrong in the Universe and
)that distinction is not difficult to make." - Superman
) http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
)
)
)--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1163.6 ---------------
)
)From: arthurw synapsys.co.za (Arthur Williamson)
)Subject: RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
)Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 20:07:41 +0200
)MIME-Version: 1.0
)Content-Type: text/plain;
) charset="iso-8859-1"
)Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
)In-Reply-To: (199903251625.IAA09448 lists1.best.com)
)
).
)
)[BOB] But seriously, Michael, how would you prove to someone the existence
)of an intangible which you know exists?
)
)You can't really.
)There is a little-known craft (carefully selected word) called "Philosophy",
)now largely abandoned, which wrestles with this problem.
)It's rather axiomatic, really. Much like all points on a circle's
)circumference are equidistant from centrepoint, even though no "true" circle
)may actually exist in the "real" universe.
)Since our language is a symbol system inextricably bound up with the
)space-time system, we can't get away from its corporeality.
)The words are very, very difficult: what does "know" mean? "Prove" is
)problematic, as is "existence". About the least difficult word is
)"intangible". Sooner or later we either deconstruct to nothingness, or
)lapse into platonic forms, or some other "essence" or "substance" where our
)space-time language fails. However, neither of these "disproves" intangible
)being. So we're left in our corners, with little hope of real dialogue.
)Hopefully we won't end up hurling high explosives at one another...
)
)Arthur
)
)
)
)--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1163.7 ---------------
)
)From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
)Subject: RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
)Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:17:54 -0500
)MIME-Version: 1.0
)Content-Type: text/plain;
) charset="iso-8859-1"
)
)
)
)) -----Original Message-----
)) From: Steve Premo [mailto:premo cruzio.com]
)
))
)) Mind if I jump in?
))
)) I agree that we should not require scientific proof regarding
)) anyone's spiritual or religious beliefs. Since this is an
)) area that is
)) not susceptible to such proofs, the lack of proof does not mean
)) that they are wrong.
))
)) But anthroposophy goes farther, by claiming that the nature of
)) spiritual reality can be proved scientifically, and that Steiner has
)) done so. I do have a problem with this claim.
))
)) Also, when spiritual insight and clairvoyance are used to ascertain
)) truths about the physical world, those matters can be tested. My
)) impression is that by ignoring the great weight of scientific opinion
)) and clinging to a few studies in anthroposophical journals and
)) fringe science publications, many in the anthroposophical
)) community are able to convince themselves that Steiner's
)) proclamations about the nature of physical reality are accurate.
))
)
) I believe we are in agreement.
)
) If there is an inner state in question, that is not testable. The
)absence of proof does not mean they are wrong.
)
) If something is held to be true concerning a physical reality, then
)I presume that someone could design a proper experiment to test it.
)
) I'm not familiar with what theories anthroposophists believe that
)Rudolf Steiner proved to be true, and which are testable, but which are not
)generally accepted by mainstream science. I cannot quarrel with any
)suggestion made by Michael Kopp or any other Waldorf Critic that a testable
)hypothesis cannot be given much weight unless experimental evidence supports
)it.
)
) However, I do have problems when anybody says that the existence of
)spiritual beings is hogwash because there's no scientific proof being
)offered. I don't happen to have any experience myself with such things, but
)I can't say that an anthroposophist who tells me that they believe it to be
)true is wrong, and I don't think it's appropriate for me to demand
)scientific proof.
)
) Bob
)
)
)--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1163.8 ---------------
)
)From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
)Subject: Re: Baltimore school
)Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 06:44:25 +0000
)MIME-Version: 1.0
)References: (199903241809.KAA22803 lists1.best.com)
) (199903242339.PAA13704 lists1.best.com)
) (199903250021.QAA19287 lists1.best.com)
)In-Reply-To: (199903250021.QAA19287 lists1.best.com)
)
)Steve Premo (premo cruzio.com) wrote:
))It
))shows that what we call "black" and "white" are really relative
))terms.
)
)Indeed, and there is also an increasing inability (it seems to me) to be
)able to distinguish between the physical and the sociological use of the
)words.
)
)Noctis Gaudia Carpe,
)Stephen
)
)--
)+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
)+ Stephen Tonkin | ATM Resources; Astro-Tutorials; Astronomy Books +
)+ (N50.9105 W1.829) | (http://www.aegis1.demon.co.uk) +
)+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
)
)
)--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1163.9 ---------------
)
)From: Tarjei Straume (tastraum online.no)
)Subject: RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
)Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 19:35:31 +0100
)MIME-Version: 1.0
)Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
)References: (199903251649.IAA23303 lists1.best.com)
)In-Reply-To: (199903251747.JAA29724 lists1.best.com)
)
)Steve Premo wrote:
)
))
))I agree that we should not require scientific proof regarding
))anyone's spiritual or religious beliefs. Since this is an area that is
))not susceptible to such proofs, the lack of proof does not mean
))that they are wrong.
))
))But anthroposophy goes farther, by claiming that the nature of
))spiritual reality can be proved scientifically, and that Steiner has
))done so. I do have a problem with this claim.
)
)I don't know how many times I have stressed that anthroposophy represents
)cultural heresy, and its definition of science to include the exploration
)of the spiritual, which can only be accepted by those who accept the
)spiritual as an objective reality, is one of the key issues here. Nobody
)who finds this broadened definition of science ingigestible is asked to
)accept it. For those who *are* prepared to accept it if the arguments are
)sufficiently convincing, I recommend Rudolf Steiner's doctoral thesis of
)1892, "Truth and Knowledge" or "Truth and Science" ("Wahrheit und
)Wissenschaft"), followed by "A Theory of Knowledge Implicit in Goethe's
)World Conception" of 1886. These works provide the epistemological basis
)for the anthroposophical definition of science, and they're available
)online.
))
))Also, when spiritual insight and clairvoyance are used to ascertain
))truths about the physical world, those matters can be tested. My
))impression is that by ignoring the great weight of scientific opinion
))and clinging to a few studies in anthroposophical journals and
))fringe science publications, many in the anthroposophical
))community are able to convince themselves that Steiner's
))proclamations about the nature of physical reality are accurate.
)
)Those are people who read only what Steiner has said about certain
)scientific fields without following up this insight with appropriate
)literature. But I have no idea how few or how many those people might be. I
)don't think I have seen any posts to anthroposophically oriented lists by
)such people so far.
)
)
)Cheers,
)
)Tarjei
)
)http://www.uncletaz.com/
)
)
)
)
)--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1163.10 ---------------
)
)From: "J.A. van der Valk" (avdv wxs.nl)
)Subject: remove
)Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 08:41:28 +0100
)MIME-Version: 1.0
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1164.5 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Assumptions
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 12:53:42 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199903251747.JAA29724 lists1.best.com)
It seems to me you are interchanging two incompatible definitions of science in
your statement.
You evaluate RS's conclusion using your assumption of science derived from the
materialistic, Francis Bacon inspired variety. My impression is RS is a devout
follower of Goethe, who describes science in fundamentally different terms than
Bacon. Thus your definition is not an appropriate substitute in this case.
It is neither fair, nor proper, to confuse or deny the two contradictory
definitions in the conclusion of your statement. If you disagree with Goethean
science, that is another matter entirely.
e
Steve Premo wrote:
) But anthroposophy goes farther, by claiming that the nature of
) spiritual reality can be proved scientifically, and that Steiner has
) done so. I do have a problem with this claim.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1164.6 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Admin: list policy (was Re: Baltimore school)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:30:26 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199903222311.PAA25457 lists1.best.com) (199903250821.AAA02892 lists1.best.com)
So it seems SWA branded people are second class citizens on this list, how
progressive.
They are tolerated so long as they behave themselves?
And if they don't, what would be your final solution?
;O
e
Dan Dugan wrote:
) So we have an atmosphere of freedom and tolerance here,
) including tolerating raving Anthroposophists, as long as they stay on topic
) and avoid ad hominems.
)
) Dan Dugan
) Moderator
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1164.7 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:35:37 -0500
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) -----Original Message-----
) From: Michael Hirsch [mailto:hirsch mathcs.emory.edu]
) How do you feel about calling the study of such an untestable subject
) "scientific" or "spiritual science"? That is my objection--I don't
) care that it isn't science except when they try to claim the mantle of
) science.
)
) --Michael
)
I guess I have pretty unsettled feelings about it. Let me discuss
the terms "scientific" and "spiritual science" separately.
I don't have enough background in scientific philosophy to make a
judgment about what is commonly agreed to be "scientific" or not. However,
I seem to recall that the "scientific method" involves putting forth a
hypothesis, followed by designing an experiment with which you try to
disprove your hypothesis. I'm quite certain there are many variations and
that my understanding is incomplete.
Given that admittedly partial understanding, it's hard for me to
think that an untestable subject could be described as scientific.
Consequently, I would not agree with anybody calling any claim or procedure
"scientific" unless the claim is made subject to normally accepted
scientific methods.
However, when someone uses the term "science" with a modifier as
distinctive as the word "spiritual," it implies to me that they have
actually coined a new term. It is what they define it to be.
For instance, I might use the term "spiritual science," if I had
coined the phrase myself, to describe how one might test, in the small
details of one's own daily life, how to best apply one's spiritual values
and understandings. Is there a cause and effect relationship between the
way I behave in a relationship and the way the other person feels towards
me? Can I find evidence in my own life experiences of the truth of some of
what Gandhi, Thomas Merton, Krishnamurti or Maimonides may have said? When
I think I have some revelation or intuition about how things work in life,
is it just a mental construct, or can I apply that revelation/intuition in a
way that makes sense? These are ways in which I might establish a
"spiritual science" in my own life.
So the words "spiritual science" could have an independent meaning
for anyone who uses that term. However, I wouldn't think of "spiritual
science" as being "science" in the normal meaning of the word.
I'm open to arguments either way on my comments.
Bob
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1164.8 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: The Clarity Impulse
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:04:08 -0500
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References: (199903191841.KAA01742 lists1.best.com)
(199903192351.PAA25869 lists1.best.com)
(199903210016.QAA20470 lists1.best.com)
(199903210826.AAA26874 lists1.best.com)
(199903220245.SAA26302 lists1.best.com) (199903220907.BAA17306 lists1.best.com)
I been meaning to reply to this post for some time.
e
Michael Kopp wrote:
) The fact is, quite a lot of what you write is very difficult to decipher.
) One must use experience with your idiom and cant to decode what you may
) _mean_ from your imprecision and laxness.
I agree with this observation, especially your identification of idiosyncratic
behavior. I rely a GREAT DEAL on the full compliment of physical cues to convey
meaning in normal (in person) communication.
) And your refusal to adhere to Netiquette norms doesn't help.
I am this way in person as well.
)
)
) But, since you demonstrate such a rich vein of evidence from your
) experience of the Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophical educational system, I
) will go on trying to make something of your posts, in hopes that I will get
) a better understanding of what is educationally wrong with SWA education.
)
) Cheers from Godzone,
)
) Michael Kopp
) Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1164.9 ---------------
From: Tarjei Straume (tastraum online.no)
Subject: Re: Admin: list policy (was Re: Baltimore school)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 23:05:18 +0100
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References: (199903230054.QAA26623 lists1.best.com)
(199903222311.PAA25457 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903250821.AAA02892 lists1.best.com)
)That's right, but don't confuse an intention with a rule. This list was
)founded as an open forum by necessity, because the "official" Waldorf list
)censors discussion by banning people who are too critical of Waldorf and
)Anthroposophy. So we have an atmosphere of freedom and tolerance here,
)including tolerating raving Anthroposophists, as long as they stay on topic
)and avoid ad hominems.
Amazing. The raving of critics outweigh the raving of anthroposophists ten
to one. And what ad hominims are concerned, the posts from hardcore
skeptics are full of them. Do you have one set of rules for
anthroposophists and another on for critics, Dan?
Tarjei
http://www.uncletaz.com/
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1164.10 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Spiritual science, natural science and society (was Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 01:26:52 +0100
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Steve wrote:
) ... when spiritual insight and clairvoyance are used to ascertain
) truths about the physical world, those matters can be tested. My
) impression is that by ignoring the great weight of scientific opinion
) and clinging to a few studies in anthroposophical journals and
) fringe science publications, many in the anthroposophical
) community are able to convince themselves that Steiner's
) proclamations about the nature of physical reality are accurate.
)
) Of course, that's no different from those who hold "new age" beliefs
) about pyramids, crystals, and the like.
I have taken a special interest in this problem in relation to among
other things the esoterical/theosophical/anthroposophical description of
evolution and history.
How do you investigate this problem if you are not/have not developed
clairvoyance?
One problem concerns the question if there is/are general pattern(s) of
evolution on different levels. Other problems concern questions of
understanding specific levels of evolution.
One of these levels is what is described by the esoteric tradition as
the level of "planetary stages" of the evolution of the Earth; a
"Saturn" stage, a "Sun" stage, a "Moon" stage, a specific "Earth" stage,
a future "Jupiter" stage, a "Venus" stage and a "Vulcan" stage.
Another level is the level of "cultural epochs", much discussed some
time ago on this list.
How to approach these problem and is it possible to approach them
empirically?
I think it is, to some extent, and have tried to do that, as I also have
mentioned on this list earlier.
For now I just want to mention one such effort.
At the end of the first lecture of the series on "The Relationship of
the Diverse Branches of Natural Science to Astronomy", held in Stuttgart
in 1921 (and that can be found in extenso at the site of David Eyes at
http://gate.cruzio.com/~e0yes/astronomy/index.html), Steiner asserts
that the life of the single cell reflects the life of cosmos in certain
ways concerning spatial relations between planets in the solar system
and structures in the cell.
On my site I have a small contribution on this theme
(http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/SCIENCE/cosmcell.htm). It looks at the
problem more from a temporal perspective. I hardly know of anyone who
has really understood, done research on and published on the problem of
the spatial relations described by Steiner. If you look at it from a
temporal perspective, however, I find it very interesting to look at the
cell cycle from the perspective described by Steiner.
Does the (eucharyote) cell in its life reflect the life of Cosmos?
If you develop a sense of what a "cycle" is in some sense, with its
inner structures, dynamics, polarities, symmetries and relations between
its stages, and have tried to understand it on a number of levels, I
think it fascinating to look at the cell cycle, as it really is very
beautifully structured, in a way that I however never have seen
described in anything I have read on it.
Simply by looking at it, as it is now understood, in much more detail
than it was at Steiner¥s time, and having trained your "inner eye", you
"see" that it - like Cosmos, according to Steiner and other esotericists
-
passes through a "night" phase, when it mainly is embedded in the life
of the host organism of which it is part.
In the esoteric tradition this is termed the "pralaya" stage of Cosmos.
Steiner says almost nothing on it that I remember in "Occult science -
an outline".
For the cell, the conventional term for its "night/pralaya" phase is
"interphase". If you look at it, you see that you now normally
distingiush between five phases of this interphase. You also see that
one basic characteristic of it is the basic polarity between the stage,
called G zero, when the cell is completely embedded in its host
organism, totally dedicated to "altruistically" serving the need of its
"host", and the so called "S-phase", when the cell has completely
withdrawn from this "altruistic" activity and is totally dedicated do
"blowing itself up"; doubling its chromosomes, making them look as they
are normally seen in biology- and other books; their "selfish" form.
According to Steiner in "Occult science ..", Cosmos however repeatedly
comes out of this "sleep" in the bosom of higher spiritual worlds and
becomes more visible to the clairvoyant observer, passing through a
number of phases, its "manvantara" stage, before it again returns;
withdraws into the bosom of higher worlds.
That is also the case for the eucharyote cell. The "conventional" name
for this "manvantara/day" stage of the cell is called "mitosis".
Out of a tradition mitosis has for long been described as consisting of
4 main phases called prophase, metaphase, anaphase and telophase.
If you look at mitosis more from a structurally dynamic perspective, it
looks somewhat different. I think you should then probably, out of the
understanding of the formation of the metaphase plate as the symmetry
point of mitosis distinguish between two subphases of prophase as well
as of metaphase, looking at the strong symmetries between the phases
preceding and following the existence of this metaphase plate.
Looking at the totality of the cell cycle of the eucharyote cell through
interphase and mitosis, with your ordinary eyes, but also with inner
concept forming activity somewhat trained in understanding the basics of
symmetries and polarities of "cycles", the character of the cell cycle
from this perspective - to my understanding - supports Steiner¥s
assertion in the end of the first lecture in the series on "The
Relationship of the Diverse Branches of Natural Science to Astronomy",
that there is a deep relation between the life of at least the
eucharyote cell and Cosmos in senses that almost noone has yet
investigated.
I fully understand that one can view the majority of Steiner¥s
assertions as absurd. Yet, if one tries too look at them as a
researcher, investigating normally unknown, almost unthread territory,
my personal experience is that it can be _very_ rewarding, not only for
your "inner life", but all the way into the understanding of the extreme
present.
The article on my site on the structure of the EC/EU-process since 1986
is a _direct_ result of my efforts through the years to understand
_specifically_ the nature of the "cultural epochs", something that
Steiner points to in another sense at the end of the same lecture, that
is mentioned above.
My personal experience is that it starts to become very difficult to
just wave away what Steiner says in different places, if you really put
some effort into understanding him.
Do the structure of the cell cycle and of the EC/EU-process "prove" that
Steiner is right concerning the relation between the cell and Cosmos and
man and Cosmos?
After having put some effort into investigate it through the years, my
judgement is that they do not "prove", but strongly support his views on
these points.
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1164 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1165 --------------
001 - "MICHAEL RONALL" (mronall - critique of poor reason?
002 - Michael Hirsch (hirsch ma - RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
003 - Michael Hirsch (hirsch ma - Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
004 - "Alan S. Fine MD" (asf pe - Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
005 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
006 - "MICHAEL RONALL" (mronall - Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
007 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
008 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Spiritual science, natural science and society (was Re:
A
009 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Learn before you leap/races in SWA
010 - Robert Flannery (litvas i - Re: Learn before you leap/races in SWA
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1165.1 ---------------
From: "MICHAEL RONALL" (mronall rabecker.com)
Subject: critique of poor reason?
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 21:57:35 -0500
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A little while ago Dr. Fine challenged anthroposophists on this list to volunteer their criticism of Rudolf Steiner's ideas.
Although it is probably not what he had in mind, I offer my response because it was stirred by his challenge, and perhaps does overlap with what he did have in mind. Also, it overlaps with some of what I've read here; namely, that I am not the only one to doubt the justification for the degree of trust RS placed in human beings. My scepticism, however, concerns less what RS expected from his students, but from the products of human nature per se. I mean this not as concerns what human beings can know (which is, unsurprisingly, the fundamental objection of the Critics here, ie, RS's claim to practice a "science" of the spirit) but how well human beings can reasonably be expected to b e h a v e, eg, politically and in economic relations, as well as among intimate communities.
Congenial as I find many of the applications that are dismissed by "Critics" to be based on superstition (and it was not always so; despite five years as a pupil in a Waldorf school, I was raised in philosophical materialism at home, so that Anthroposophy, if it was to become attractive to me, would have to be an acquired taste; a taste acquired rapidly, but ambivalently nonetheless; and I had learned not a shred of it at school), Rudolf Steiner's apprehension of human drives still seems to me to display an idealization of the data. My own reflexes devolve to the more Hobbesian type of ethical prophylaxis; a scepticism that runs to the "expect less and you won't be disappointed" variety of inference from the wolfishness broiling just below our civility.
Ever so slowly, however (and here is where I expect to disappoint Dr. Fine and his allies, by appearing to be just another apriorist, true believer type -- Sorry!) I find over and again that I h a v e c o n s i s t e n t l y p r e f e r r e d t h e r e s u l t s of trying ever and again to r e o p e n my assumptions to the counter-intuitive propositions about human nature that I find in Anthroposophy. The personal contacts I build through its study -- even as tenuous as email acquaintances through such a list as this one -- invite me to enlarge my repertoire of sympathies more than I would have had I remained closed to claims of the results of a "new way of thinking" by sticking to the orthodox epistemological syllogism of "I don't know; therefore NOBODY knows."
Through studying texts of spiritual science I have acquired the incentive to struggle to "put myself in the place of" those who have more affinity with RS's, say, anarchist sympathies, and through that route an avenue then opens to soften my provincial dismissal of, say NON-anthropsophical anarchists, even while not adopting their outlook wholeheartedly for my own. (This is just one example of an anthroposophically-incited appetite for expanding my horizons.) For while I too can cultivate repulsion for bourgouise complacency [beginning with my own], I am harder pressed to find a replacement for it as a foundation for cultural achievment. As was noted here, there are few apologists for poverty among the poor. So by temperament I am in more sympathy with the stance generating the hypothetical query to a political radical: What kind of society would you be a conservative in?
But this is just one example of where I fight with Anthroposophy; or, better put, my sceptical secular humanist reflexes fight with it. The identification of a cathartic effect to suffering is also a bitter pill (a close relative is ill right now, and I find promethean rebellion more accessible than a franciscan quietism...) but (Sorry again, Dr. Fine et alia) I just haven't found anything as fruitful as the path of understanding RS outlined. And my recent acquaintance with a new way to read his texts does suggest an avenue of deliverance from simply "believing" the claims as dogma.
In brief, and I can only hope this better than no answer at all (and trust I'll learn quickly if it isn't!) I am challenged (to take just these two examples) by RS's social idealism and by the purificatory value he places on pain; specifically the esoteric Christian etiology of fertility in voluntary sacrifice, which chafes my instinct for economy. I just don't like it, and (perhaps only on that account, but I'm still not sure) am disinclined to believe it necessary. The former is an affront to my observation and experience; the latter to my private sense of justice. So my "jury" is still out on the question of whether Hobbes or RS were more accurate observers of human nature; or whether, say, Beckett is truer to the human condition. But wierdly, Anthroposophy has provoked me to be more interested in the many flavors of opposition to itself than I otherwise would be, and interested not (primarily) to defeat the opposition but to understand it; witness to which is my attention !
!
drawn to this list.
(I'll be away from my screen after this evening till next Thursday.) /MRx
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1165.2 ---------------
From: Michael Hirsch (hirsch mathcs.emory.edu)
Subject: RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 22:23:39 -0500 (EST)
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Tolz, Robert writes:
)
)
) ) -----Original Message-----
) ) From: Michael Hirsch [mailto:hirsch mathcs.emory.edu]
)
) ) How do you feel about calling the study of such an untestable subject
) ) "scientific" or "spiritual science"? That is my objection--I don't
) ) care that it isn't science except when they try to claim the mantle of
) ) science.
) However, when someone uses the term "science" with a modifier as
) distinctive as the word "spiritual," it implies to me that they have
) actually coined a new term. It is what they define it to be.
Yes, this is a reasonable approach. For instance, I consider neither
"political science" nor " social science" to be sciences. I am not
too offended by the names, perhaps only because I am used to them. If
"spiritual science" were used only as a name, and not as an attempt to
claim the mantle of science, I would not object.
) So the words "spiritual science" could have an independent meaning
) for anyone who uses that term. However, I wouldn't think of "spiritual
) science" as being "science" in the normal meaning of the word.
At least once on this list (and I think more) a Waldorf defender has
claimed that Waldorf is based on "a scientifically valid
understanding" of human nature. (This started the whole agument over
whether spiritual science was a science".) When challenged, he said
the science in question was "spiritual science". This, I claim, is a
very wrong use of the term "science", and from what you wrote I would
think that you agree with me on this.
I have been similarly offended when I have seen political "scientists"
try to claim scientific standing for their results. Such claims are
similarly invalid and offensive to me.
--Michael
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1165.3 ---------------
From: Michael Hirsch (hirsch mathcs.emory.edu)
Subject: Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 22:32:39 -0500 (EST)
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References: (199903250947.BAA06236 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (8191054 toto.iv)
Ezra Beeman writes:
) Do you treat your wife, who I will presuppose loves you, the with the same scorn
) you treat SWA people? If not, why the inconsistency?
) Inconsistency is, as you know, the bane of all logical and scientific endeavors.
I don't know about you or Kopp, but my wife doesn't claim her love for
me is based on any valid scientific principle. Nor is it
scientifically verifiable.
Actually, now that I think about it, many people do treat love as a
scientific phenomenon in the sense of being falsifiable. How often
have you heard "If you loved me you would do such-and-such"? Clearly,
implicit in this is the idea that the state of being in love predicts
certain future behaviors. If they don't happen, voila! you have
disproved the claim of love.
--Michael
P.S. Ezra, thanks for trimming your lines to 80 characters. Now I
won't be so quick to delete them. I'd be even happier if you'd trim
to a more civilized 72 chars so that when your messages get quoted
they will still all fit on my terminal. Thanks.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1165.4 ---------------
From: "Alan S. Fine MD" (asf peakpeak.com)
Subject: Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:43:34 -0700
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-----Original Message-----
From: Tarjei Straume (tastraum online.no)
To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com (waldorf-critics lists.best.com)
Date: Thursday, March 25, 1999 11:57 AM
Subject: RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
I don't know how many times I have stressed that anthroposophy represents
)cultural heresy, and its definition of science to include the exploration
)of the spiritual, which can only be accepted by those who accept the
)spiritual as an objective reality, is one of the key issues here.
I agree with you one hundred percent.
Nobody
)who finds this broadened definition of science ingigestible is asked to
)accept it.
But children are not asked. They are taught. They are influenced. So why
isnt this key concept clearly explained up front to parents of children of
WE? Many people outside of anthroposophy are very troubled by the notion of
making a spiritual system into a scientific reality, for reasons amply
outlined on these posts. Make a clear statement of this key aspect of
anthroposophy and its important impact on WE. Send it to all the parents
of Waldorf children. Do it tomorrow. And let the parents decide if they
accept this or not for their children.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1165.5 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 20:23:18 -0800
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Oy, what I do for love.
e
Michael Hirsch wrote:
) Ezra Beeman writes:
)
) ) Do you treat your wife, who I will presuppose loves you, the with the same scorn
) ) you treat SWA people? If not, why the inconsistency?
) ) Inconsistency is, as you know, the bane of all logical and scientific endeavors.
)
) I don't know about you or Kopp, but my wife doesn't claim her love for
) me is based on any valid scientific principle. Nor is it
) scientifically verifiable.
)
) Actually, now that I think about it, many people do treat love as a
) scientific phenomenon in the sense of being falsifiable. How often
) have you heard "If you loved me you would do such-and-such"? Clearly,
) implicit in this is the idea that the state of being in love predicts
) certain future behaviors. If they don't happen, voila! you have
) disproved the claim of love.
)
) --Michael
)
) P.S. Ezra, thanks for trimming your lines to 80 characters. Now I
) won't be so quick to delete them. I'd be even happier if you'd trim
) to a more civilized 72 chars so that when your messages get quoted
) they will still all fit on my terminal. Thanks.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1165.6 ---------------
From: "MICHAEL RONALL" (mronall rabecker.com)
Subject: Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 23:34:14 -0500
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In re: the response of
))) "Alan S. Fine MD" (asf peakpeak.com) - 3/25/99 11:43 AM )))
to the
-----Original Message-----
From: Tarjei Straume (tastraum online.no)
To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com (waldorf-critics lists.best.com)
Date: Thursday, March 25, 1999 11:57 AM
Subject: RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
I don't know how many times I have stressed that anthroposophy represents
)cultural heresy, and its definition of science to include the exploration
)of the spiritual, which can only be accepted by those who accept the
)spiritual as an objective reality, is one of the key issues here.
Alan Fine writes:
))I agree with you one hundred percent.
But MRx notes:
Not necessarily a priori, however:
Vide Rudolf Steiner, in his Preface to Second Edition (1918) of The Philosophy of Freedom, para 4: "What is said in [The Philosophy of Freedom] can be accepted by anyone who, for whatever reasons of his own, does not want anything to do with the results of my spiritual scientific research.... what has been attempted here .... is .... to prove how an unprejudiced consideration of these two questions which are fundamental to a l l knowledge leads to the view that the human being lives in a true spiritual world. In this book the attempt is made to justify cognition of the spiritual world b e f o r e entering into actual spiritual experience. And this justification is so undertaken that during the course of what is developed here one need not look at my later valid experiences in order to find acceptable what is asserted, if to penetrate into the thought-style itself is what one can or wants to do." [emphases in the original; from unpublished translation by Florin L!
!
owndes]
[snip for someone else to handle]
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1165.7 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 20:59:52 -0800
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I wonder if mathematics qualifies as a spiritual system informing scientific
reality? Last I checked it was, and always will be, an axiomatic system. Yet
it informs all science, from physics on down. Belief in numbers is not better
than belief in any religious system. (All spiritual systems reduce to axioms -
Unless you believe (g) St. Anselm's ontological argument 'proving' the
existence of God)
If your demands are reasonable, I think full disclosure of the Pythagoreans and
all subsequent mathematical cults is in order. Make sure to mention the bloody
fate of the first female mathematician (Hypatia), murdered in the course of
religious sect violence in Alexandria. During this period, the religious nature
of mathematics was taken quite seriously. In fact the religious nature of
mathematics is more insidious and well hidden in the educational system than AS
could ever hope to be. I for one am okay with that.
I like the suggestion made in an earlier post demanding inversely equal 'we are
devoid of spirit' statements from state schools.
e
Alan S. Fine MD wrote:
) But children are not asked. They are taught. They are influenced. So why
) isnt this key concept clearly explained up front to parents of children of
) WE? Many people outside of anthroposophy are very troubled by the notion of
) making a spiritual system into a scientific reality, for reasons amply
) outlined on these posts. Make a clear statement of this key aspect of
) anthroposophy and its important impact on WE. Send it to all the parents
) of Waldorf children. Do it tomorrow. And let the parents decide if they
) accept this or not for their children.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1165.8 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Spiritual science, natural science and society (was Re:
Anthropops NOT welcome?)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 00:17:34 -0800
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References: (199903251747.JAA29724 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903260033.QAA19557 lists1.best.com)
)Looking at the totality of the cell cycle of the eucharyote cell through
)interphase and mitosis, with your ordinary eyes, but also with inner
)concept forming activity somewhat trained in understanding the basics of
)symmetries and polarities of "cycles", the character of the cell cycle
)from this perspective - to my understanding - supports Steiner¥s
)assertion in the end of the first lecture in the series on "The
)Relationship of the Diverse Branches of Natural Science to Astronomy",
)that there is a deep relation between the life of at least the
)eucharyote cell and Cosmos in senses that almost noone has yet
)investigated.
Sune, the fact that you can draw a parallel doesn't make a "deep relation."
I rather think the analogy is trivial.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1165.9 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Learn before you leap/races in SWA
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 00:55:40 -0800
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In-Reply-To: (199903251911.LAA24447 lists1.best.com)
Lisa, you wrote (in part),
)But this list is so much
)better. Thanks to whoever created it.
You're welcome.
) I am, I must admit, surprised and a bit shocked at the level of
)anger and
)outrage that seem to be coming from some people who post here. My surprise
)comes from the fact that these people were themselves surprised and shocked
)after enrolling their kids in a Waldorf school and then discovering (in that
)order!) that the schools were based on anthroposophy. Gee, I would have
)thought that was a basic fact that would have been obvious upon doing even the
)most basic research on any private or independent school one might consider
)enrolling one's child in!!!
When I was at the open house, I saw Anthroposophical books. I asked a
teacher what that was about. She said that the teachers study Steiner's
philosophy, but that they only use his methods in the classroom. Later
experience showed that this was not true.
) My children's school makes no secret of its anthroposophical
)origins -- in
)fact, the underpinning philosophy is mentioned in all literature associated
)with the school's informational packet,
Could you send me a copy of the packet, or quote the revelatory text here?
)and numerous opportunities are given
)to parents to join anthroposophical study groups, festival groups and the
)like! No one feels forced to do so or an outcast for not doing so, but the
)opportunities are there. My surprise comes usually from the fact that more
)parents don't seem even INTERESTED in the school's philosophical basis --
)these people just treat the school as any other independent school that is an
)alternative to Baltimore City's failing public school system.
) As for whether or not Waldorf schools should hand out that lengthy
)explanation crafted by one of this list's participants, disclosing the
)anthroposophical nature of the school and its adherent's belief in
)reincarnation and karma, well, do other independent schools hand out
)statements saying that they treat their students as if they have NO SPIRITUAL
)NATURE, etc. etc.? Do Catholic schools set out the tenets of Catholicism in
)their literature, etc? You will answer, of course, that people would expect at
)Catholic school to provide a Catholic education. Well, I would counter that
)any parent who bothers to educate him or herself even basically would
)understand that a Waldorf school educates on the basis of anthroposophy!
)That's what a Waldorf school is!!! Why that should surprise anyone surprises
)me. But then, I am assuming that parents who care enough to seek out special,
)independent schools and pay for them also take the time to thoroughly educate
)themselves about the educational philosophy of the school.
Because they claim, as instructed by Steiner, that there is no
Anthroposophy in it. And this is not true. If the San Francisco Waldorf
school had described itself as a Steinerian parochial school, I would not
have been seduced.
(snip)
) As to the fact that Waldorf teachers believe in reincarnation, etc.
)-- well,
)I personally have no problem with that (it's a spiritual system that makes
)great sense to me, and is in fact supported by many Biblical scholars as being
)consistent with the Bible). But even if you do have a problem with it, be
)assured your child is not learning reincarnation as a fact in the classroom. I
)brought the subject up one day with my 3rd grader, when our neighbor died. I
)told her that I believed that Mrs. White would be reborn someday as a baby, to
)travel the road of life again and learn more and more. MY daughters was
)astonished. She had never heard of that idea.
If the teachers are doing their job, they are being prepared for that
belief with images, particularly the lesson of the metamorphosis of the
butterfly is supposed to be taught with reincarnation in mind:
"[T]he presentation of living pictures, or as we might say of symbols, to
the mind, is important for the period between the change of teeth and
puberty. It is essential that the secrets of Nature, the laws of life, be
taught to the boy or girl, not in dry intellectual concepts, but as far as
possible in symbols. Parables of the spiritual connexions of things should
be brought before the soul of the child in such a manner that behind the
parables he divines and feels, rather than grasps intellectually, the
underlying law in all existence. 'All that is passing is but a parable,'
must be the maxim guiding all our education in this period. It is of vast
importance for the child that he should receive the secrets of Nature in
parables, before they are brought before his soul in the form of 'natural
laws' and the like. An example may serve to make this clear. Let us imagine
that we want to tell a child of the immortality of the soul, of the coming
forth of the soul from the body. The way to do this is to use a comparison,
such for example as the comparison of the butterfly coming forth from the
chrysalis. As the butterfly soars up from the chrysalis, so after death the
soul of man from the house of the body. No man will rightly grasp the fact
in intellectual concepts, who has not first received it in such a picture.
By such a parable, we speak not merely to the intellect but to the feeling
of the child, to all his soul. A child who has experienced this, will
approach the subject with an altogether different mood of soul, when later
it is taught him in the form of intellectual concepts. It is indeed a very
serious matter for any man, if he was not first enabled to approach the
problems of existence with his feeling. Thus it is essential that the
educator have at his disposal parables for all the laws of Nature and
secrets of the World." [Steiner, 1909, EC pp. 32-33]
)I don't see where the religion
)of the person teaching my child should be any of my business, when you get
)right down to it, so long as that teacher does not force that dogma onto my
)child.
I agree entirely. But in the case of Waldorf, the teacher is supposed to
educate not by force but subtly "out of Anthroposophy."
(In the case of WE, however, many of us choose that education BECAUSE
)our beliefs jive with those of the teachers, presuming they do have those
)beliefs.)
And Waldorf is just right for you.
) I guess my astonishment basically comes from the fact that a parent
)would not
)have already investigated the underpinnings of WE before enrolling. I also am
)surprised at how suspicious some people on this list sound: Do you really
)think the schools try to hide their true nature until they get your vulnerable
)children in their evil clutches,
Yes. But they're not evil, just misguided.
)and then try to convert them to some occult
)weirdness that includes lighting candles and thanking Nature for our food
)before we have snack?? C'mon!!!!
If you're a Catholic or evangelical Christian learning the truth about
Anthroposophy could be quite a shock. The role of Lucifer, for example.
)Well, it's obvious where my sympathies lie. I think we need more schools that
)respect children the way my children are respected and nurtured at their
)Waldorf school.
Is assuming that they need to look at the teacher as an absolute authority
until puberty respecting them or stunting their characters? Is teaching
them Steiner cult beliefs instead of science respecting them?
)*** One thing I wish someone would answer: I have never heard the bit about
)anthroposophy's view on the races of humanity. One of my daughters is Chinese.
)What, in a nutshell, is the supposed view on the evolutionary spirituality of
)the different races, and how would I expect this to effect how my Asian
)daughter is viewed anthroposophically, versus how my homemade ``white''
)daughter is viewed?
Steiner doesn't talk about Asia much. Some bits:
" We live as members of the Germanic peoples, flanked by Slavonic peoples
in the east, and by Anglo-American peoples in the west. Both the Americans
and the Slavs are rising races who have to fulfill their purpose in the
future, races who still stand at the beginning of their national thought.
The basic characteristic of the Slavonic peoples is expressed in their
spiritual talents. ... These Slavonic peoples had first to confront the
races lying to the east, the Chinese and the Japanese. These are the
remnants of earlier races from Atlantis, as indeed all Mongolians are the
residues of later Atlantean culture. They have astral bodies which
intrinsically tend towards spirituality. The Slavonic peoples have to
confront these.
... In America...materialism is carried to the extreme...that has led to
the spirit itself being interpreted in a materialistic way. ...it is
precisely in the manner of seeking that the difference lies. If you seek to
see the spiritual with the eyes, it becomes psychic, and this psychic
aspect has developed itself very strongly in America.
The American nation has to confront another ethnic element deriving
from Atlantis and endowed with psychic tendencies. This ethnic element
lives in the negro peoples. The way and manner in which these two races
develop together is significant: psychic has to confront psychic, spiritual
has to confront spiritual." [Steiner, 1905, TL pp. 278-279]
"[The purpose of the Opium War] is not to help certain people make millions
and grow rich but to prevent certain souls who would have come from the
spiritual world round about now, to strengthen the cultural forces of
Europe, from incarnating yet, and instead to surreptitiously fill European
bodies with Chinese souls...In a great many European people a disharmony
between soul and body has been brought about in the way I have just
described...Seen in this way, that Opium War meant the switching of a soul
element from a part of the earth to which it belonged--and where it might
have been of use, because it would have fitted--to another part of the
earth where it could become a tool for forces whose designs are by no means
necessarily beneficial for mankind. [Steiner, 1916, KU1 p. 270]
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1165.10 ---------------
From: Robert Flannery (litvas icu.com)
Subject: Re: Learn before you leap/races in SWA
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 05:26:20 -0500
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References: (199903251911.LAA24447 lists1.best.com)
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Dan's claim:
)If the teachers are doing their job, they
)[the children in a waldorf school]
)are being prepared for that
)belief with images, particularly the lesson of the metamorphosis of the
)butterfly is supposed to be taught with reincarnation in mind:
)
)"[T]he presentation of living pictures, or as we might say of symbols, to
)the mind, is important for the period between the change of teeth and
)puberty. It is essential that the secrets of Nature, the laws of life, be
)taught to the boy or girl, not in dry intellectual concepts, but as far as
)possible in symbols. Parables of the spiritual connexions of things should
)be brought before the soul of the child in such a manner that behind the
)parables he divines and feels, rather than grasps intellectually, the
)underlying law in all existence. 'All that is passing is but a parable,'
)must be the maxim guiding all our education in this period. It is of vast
)importance for the child that he should receive the secrets of Nature in
)parables, before they are brought before his soul in the form of 'natural
)laws' and the like. An example may serve to make this clear. Let us imagine
)that we want to tell a child of the immortality of the soul, of the coming
)forth of the soul from the body. The way to do this is to use a comparison,
)such for example as the comparison of the butterfly coming forth from the
)chrysalis. As the butterfly soars up from the chrysalis, so after death the
)soul of man from the house of the body. No man will rightly grasp the fact
)in intellectual concepts, who has not first received it in such a picture.
)By such a parable, we speak not merely to the intellect but to the feeling
)of the child, to all his soul. A child who has experienced this, will
)approach the subject with an altogether different mood of soul, when later
)it is taught him in the form of intellectual concepts. It is indeed a very
)serious matter for any man, if he was not first enabled to approach the
)problems of existence with his feeling. Thus it is essential that the
)educator have at his disposal parables for all the laws of Nature and
)secrets of the World." [Steiner, 1909, EC pp. 32-33]
As I have said before whenever Dan has brought up this example, it
specifically refers to the immortality of the soul, and says nothing about
reincarnation.
Those are two very different ideas.
I've never heard of this lesson being used in waldorf schools in the way RS
and/or Dan describe.
As a teacher, I think it stands best as a picture of transformation. If it
appears as an example in any classroom anywhere, I suspect that's why it's
used.
Robert Flannery
New York
litvas icu.com
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1165 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1166 --------------
001 - Robert Flannery (litvas i - Re: Learn before you leap/races in SWA
002 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
003 - BruceyJ aol.com - Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
004 - BruceyJ aol.com - Re: Ron Miller's article on web site
005 - BruceyJ aol.com - OFFLINE for a while
006 - Tarjei Straume (tastraum - Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
007 - Tarjei Straume (tastraum - errata
008 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
009 - Michael Hirsch (hirsch ma - Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
010 - Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis - Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1166.1 ---------------
From: Robert Flannery (litvas icu.com)
Subject: Re: Learn before you leap/races in SWA
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 05:29:19 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199903251911.LAA24447 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903260859.AAA08084 lists1.best.com)
Dan quotes Steiner on race:
)" We live as members of the Germanic peoples, flanked by Slavonic peoples
)in the east, and by Anglo-American peoples in the west. Both the Americans
)and the Slavs are rising races who have to fulfill their purpose in the
)future, races who still stand at the beginning of their national thought.
)The basic characteristic of the Slavonic peoples is expressed in their
)spiritual talents. ... These Slavonic peoples had first to confront the
)races lying to the east, the Chinese and the Japanese. These are the
)remnants of earlier races from Atlantis, as indeed all Mongolians are the
)residues of later Atlantean culture. They have astral bodies which
)intrinsically tend towards spirituality. The Slavonic peoples have to
)confront these.
)... In America...materialism is carried to the extreme...that has led to
)the spirit itself being interpreted in a materialistic way. ...it is
)precisely in the manner of seeking that the difference lies. If you seek to
)see the spiritual with the eyes, it becomes psychic, and this psychic
)aspect has developed itself very strongly in America.
) The American nation has to confront another ethnic element deriving
)from Atlantis and endowed with psychic tendencies. This ethnic element
)lives in the negro peoples. The way and manner in which these two races
)develop together is significant: psychic has to confront psychic, spiritual
)has to confront spiritual." [Steiner, 1905, TL pp. 278-279]
)
)"[The purpose of the Opium War] is not to help certain people make millions
)and grow rich but to prevent certain souls who would have come from the
)spiritual world round about now, to strengthen the cultural forces of
)Europe, from incarnating yet, and instead to surreptitiously fill European
)bodies with Chinese souls...In a great many European people a disharmony
)between soul and body has been brought about in the way I have just
)described...Seen in this way, that Opium War meant the switching of a soul
)element from a part of the earth to which it belonged--and where it might
)have been of use, because it would have fitted--to another part of the
)earth where it could become a tool for forces whose designs are by no means
)necessarily beneficial for mankind. [Steiner, 1916, KU1 p. 270]
I would like to be able to read more than just the passages selected, which
I find interesting. However, your shorthand used as a cite ("TL" and
"KU1") doesn't provide any assistance. Could you please use a standard
cite, so that further investigation is feasible?
Robert Flannery
New York
litvas icu.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1166.2 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 06:30:50 -0500
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charset="iso-8859-1"
) -----Original Message-----
) From: Michael Hirsch [mailto:hirsch mathcs.emory.edu]
)
) Yes, this is a reasonable approach. For instance, I consider neither
) "political science" nor " social science" to be sciences. I am not
) too offended by the names, perhaps only because I am used to them. If
) "spiritual science" were used only as a name, and not as an attempt to
) claim the mantle of science, I would not object.
So your objection to the phrase "spiritual science" is of
approximately the same order as your objection to the phrases "political
science" and "social science?"
Bob
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1166.3 ---------------
From: BruceyJ aol.com
Subject: Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:08:10 EST
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In einer eMail vom 24.03.99 22:39:20 (MEZ) Mitteleurop”ische Zeit schreibt
mkopp xtra.co.nz:
)
) Rational, skeptical, scientific people have been asking for some evidence
) of these "spiritual beings" for centuries. None that is credible is
) forthcoming.
)
If you look with your ears you wont see anything! You need spiritual organs to
sense spiritual beings.
Bruce
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1166.4 ---------------
From: BruceyJ aol.com
Subject: Re: Ron Miller's article on web site
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:08:16 EST
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In einer eMail vom 25.03.99 05:35:14 (MEZ) Mitteleurop”ische Zeit schreibt
ksutphen jps.net:
) What is your recent experience with "traditional education"? Are you
) referring to elementary school? I take tremendous personal offense to these
) types of statements. I am a public school teacher and I have never treated
) any of my students as an "information-processing machine," nor have I
) perceived that any of my own children's teachers treated them or their
) fellow students in this manner. Reverence for life is a thread that runs
) through all facets of the curriculum and, once again, I have observed it to
) be a common thread in other teacher's classes.
)
) Just cuz it's public don't mean it's bad and nasty.
)
) Unfortunately, I have the found these types of statements to be a common
) facet of Waldorf-speak. It's not enough to simply like and feel comfortable
) with their own choice of education, somehow they feel compelled to
denigrate
) what is offered in the public arena as a means to elevate the Waldorf
) choice. At times I wonder if this isn't a way in which to feel okay about
) spending so much money for Waldorf. I also believe that parents pick up
this
) habit of denigrating public education from the Waldorf teachers at their
) children's schools. This was a common thread when I was enrolled in the
) Public School Teacher's Training at Rudolf Steiner College and it is a
) mantra on the Waldorf list.
Dear Kathy, if you re-read you text and (with a lot of imagination) change
public to waldorf and vice verca you might understand why we often feel got at
- being shot at as a group because of one experience.
Bruce
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1166.5 ---------------
From: BruceyJ aol.com
Subject: OFFLINE for a while
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:08:19 EST
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I will be in Kassel for a week - probably without internet access - Happy
Easter everyone
Bruce
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1166.6 ---------------
From: Tarjei Straume (tastraum online.no)
Subject: Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:13:38 +0100
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In-Reply-To: (199903260347.TAA04205 lists1.best.com)
I wrote:
))Nobody who finds this broadened definition of science ingigestible is
))asked to
))accept it.
Alan S. Fine wrote:
)But children are not asked. They are taught. They are influenced. So why
)isnt this key concept clearly explained up front to parents of children of
)WE?
The Waldorf teachers on this list can answer that question better than I
can. But I almost get the impression that parents should not teach or
influence their children about anything spiritual, religious, or
supernatural whatsoever - that it is immoral to do so. You have not said
this, nor have I seen any other critics say this, but it appears to me that
it's in the cards somewhere.
)Many people outside of anthroposophy are very troubled by the notion of
)making a spiritual system into a scientific reality, for reasons amply
)outlined on these posts. Make a clear statement of this key aspect of
)anthroposophy and its important impact on WE. Send it to all the parents
)of Waldorf children. Do it tomorrow. And let the parents decide if they
)accept this or not for their children.
My only relation to anthroposophy is that I am pleased that my son Thomas
(9) is attending one. And my purpose of joining this list is to protect his
right to continue doing that.
Tarjei
http://www.uncletaz.com/
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1166.7 ---------------
From: Tarjei Straume (tastraum online.no)
Subject: errata
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:42:04 +0100
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I wrote:
"My only relation to anthroposophy is that I am pleased that my son Thomas
(9) is attending one."
Please read instead:
My only relation to Waldorf schools is that I am pleased that my son Thomas
(9) is attending one.
http://www.uncletaz.com/
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1166.8 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 08:45:57 -0700
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On 26 Mar 99, at 14:13, Tarjei Straume wrote:
) But I almost get the impression that parents should not teach or
) influence their children about anything spiritual, religious, or
) supernatural whatsoever - that it is immoral to do so. You have not said
) this, nor have I seen any other critics say this, but it appears to me
) that it's in the cards somewhere.
Actually, the position that I've seen from some critics is that it is
immoral for the school to try to subtly instill a particular approach
to spiritual and supernatural matters in the children without the
consent of the parents, particularly where the parents disagree with
this approach.
The Waldorfians' response to this, generally, is that most schools
try to instill a particular approach to such matters; but in most
schools it is a materialistic approach. I disagree. Taking a
materialistic approach to the study of the physical world is not an
attempt to influence the students' approach to spiritual matters.
This argument, I think, is an example of the "the dissolution of the
barriers between the spiritual and material worlds" that Alan
referred to as being inherent in Anthroposophy. I see the point, but
I disagree with it.
Anyway, the position of some critics is not that parents should not
influence the kids' approach to spirituality, but rather that it is the
parents' exclusive province to do so.
)My only relation to anthroposophy is that I am pleased that my son Thomas
) (9) is attending one. And my purpose of joining this list is to protect
) his right to continue doing that.
Tarjei, nobody's trying to take that away from you.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"There is a right and a wrong in the Universe and
that distinction is not difficult to make." - Superman
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1166.9 ---------------
From: Michael Hirsch (hirsch mathcs.emory.edu)
Subject: Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:02:49 -0500 (EST)
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In-Reply-To: (22463291 toto.iv)
Ezra Beeman writes:
) I wonder if mathematics qualifies as a spiritual system informing scientific
) reality? Last I checked it was, and always will be, an axiomatic system. Yet
) it informs all science, from physics on down. Belief in numbers is not better
) than belief in any religious system. (All spiritual systems reduce to axioms -
) Unless you believe (g) St. Anselm's ontological argument 'proving' the
) existence of God)
Ezra, you cut me to the quick! Is my mathematics (I am a
mathematician by training and profession) just another religion?
I think not. The big difference is that we mathematicians learned a
couple hundred years ago not to make any claims about the _truth_ of
our axioms. Once it was thought that Euclid's axioms were _the_
axioms of nature. With the discovery of non-Euclidean geometries it
became clear that axioms have no real content. In essence, we mathies
are just playing logic games: "If you assume these axioms the this
theorem holds." Never: "This theorem is the truth."
Religious systems postulate various untestable statements as
Truth--hubris no mathematician would ever contemplate. Fortunately
for them, there is no way to ever prove them wrong.
I think you might be able to make a pretty good case that the
scientist's belief (as opposed to the mathematician's belief) in
mathematics is somewhat religious. They use this abstract game that
the math people invented to compute things about the world! How can
they justify their faith in math?
--Michael
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1166.10 ---------------
From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 23:09:34 +0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: (199903252133.NAA20836 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903252133.NAA20836 lists1.best.com)
Tolz, Robert (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM) wrote:
)I seem to recall that the "scientific method" involves putting forth a
)hypothesis, followed by designing an experiment with which you try to
)disprove your hypothesis.
[...]
) However, when someone uses the term "science" with a modifier as
)distinctive as the word "spiritual," it implies to me that they have
)actually coined a new term. It is what they define it to be.
The word "science" comes from the Latin, "scio", = "I know" -- ergo it
originally meant "knowledge".
The use of it as implied by "scientific method" is a very
limited/special case of that original meaning; that said, it is a very
powerful tool, not for deciding what is right, but for identifying
errors, especially in relation to the material universe. Ultimately,
though, it is (philosophically/logically) flawed in that it is self-
defined; i.e. its own definition is tending towards the tautologous.
Anthroposophical spiritual science is not amenable to "scientific
method" as understood and as expounded by the likes of Popper (despite
what some anthropops claim).
"Spiritual science" is another limited/special case of the original
meaning. It is "science" in that it offers a (but not necessarily 'the')
way to gain knowledge of spiritual matters. Whilst anthroposophical
spiritual science does claim to be replicable, it does not make the bold
testable hypotheses demanded by orthodox "scientific method".
My personal take on it is that those who are unable to distinguish
between these two limited/special cases of the original meaning of
"science" do not understand the nature of both. Those who claim that
their particular favourite brand of the original "science" is the one
and only possible true interpretation tend to remind me of proselytising
religious fundamentalists.
Noctis Gaudia Carpe,
Stephen
--
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+ Stephen Tonkin | ATM Resources; Astro-Tutorials; Astronomy Books +
+ (N50.9105 W1.829) | (http://www.aegis1.demon.co.uk) +
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1166 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1167 --------------
001 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
002 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Spiritual science, natural science and society (was Re:Ant
003 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Math as Esoteric Cult
004 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Learn before you leap/races in SWA
005 - Michael Hirsch (hirsch ma - RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
006 - Herman de Tollenaere (her - Re: Learn before you leap/races in SWA
007 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - Re: Spiritual science, natural science and society (was Re:
008 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - learn before you leap (very long)
009 - Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis - Re: Learn before you leap/races in SWA
010 - Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis - Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1167.1 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:26:07 -0700
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On 25 Mar 99, at 23:09, Stephen Tonkin wrote:
)The word "science" comes from the Latin, "scio", = "I know" -- ergo it
) originally meant "knowledge".
)
) The use of it as implied by "scientific method" is a very
) limited/special case of that original meaning;
That's true, but in modern usage, that "limited/special case" is the
common meaning of the term "science," at least in the absence of
some modifier such as "spiritual science."
This relates to Waldorf education in that if Waldorf educators use
the word "science" in its original sense of "any path to knowledge"
instead of in its modern sense, it is doing the students an injustice.
"Social science" is another case entirely, in that it is an attempt to
apply the scientific method to social phenomena. Whether it
succeeds in this is open to question, but scholars in the social
sciences do consider themselves to be practising science in the
modern sense of the word, while those studying more traditional
science (i.e., biology, physics, chemistry, etc.) tend to disagree.
) Anthroposophical
) spiritual science is not amenable to "scientific method" as understood and
) as expounded by the likes of Popper (despite what some anthropops claim).
I agree with you.
) "Spiritual science" is another limited/special case of the original
) meaning. It is "science" in that it offers a (but not necessarily 'the')
) way to gain knowledge of spiritual matters. Whilst anthroposophical
) spiritual science does claim to be replicable, it does not make the bold
) testable hypotheses demanded by orthodox "scientific method".
I agree with you about that, at least to the extent that "spiritual
science" strives to offer a way to gain knowledge of spiritual
matters. Whether it succeeds I have no idea.
To the extent that "spiritual science" claims to offer a way to gain
knowledge of physical matters, though, I think that it is unreliable.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"There is a right and a wrong in the Universe and
that distinction is not difficult to make." - Superman
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1167.2 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Spiritual science, natural science and society (was Re:Anthropops NOT welcome?)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 19:39:21 +0100
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References: (199903251747.JAA29724 lists1.best.com) (199903260859.AAA07695 lists1.best.com)
Dan wrote, commenting my description of the inner order of the cell
cycle and the structural relation between the stages of the cell cycle
and the stages in the evolution of Cosmos according to the esoteric
tradition:
) Sune, the fact that you can draw a parallel doesn't make a "deep relation."
) I rather think the analogy is trivial.
Dan, how do you understand the parallel and in what sense do you find it
to be "trivial"?
Do you find the very strong inner order and the symmetries between the
phases of the cell cycle that I describe in the paper on my site to be
"trivial" in the sense of
- "not important to you" or also
- "very probably purely accidental as such and therefore not important"?
Or do you find
1/ the structural inner order _as such_ of the cell cycle that I
describe to be a reality, but that
2/ the _similarity_ between them and the stages in the evolution of
Cosmos as described by the esoteric tradition, with its
- five stages of "inner heavenly sleep" and
- seven stages of "external earthly wake appearance and ordered
disintegration",
- with the first and last two stages of the seven constituting "only"
beginning and end and the middle three stages constituting a unity of
its own and
- with both phases ("sleep" and "wakefulness") evolving to a central
symmetry point and then revolving through similar yet transforming
stages,
to be purely accidental and therefore unimportant?
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1167.3 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Math as Esoteric Cult
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:47:42 -0500
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I entered CMC as a math major, but my priorities did not lie in academia at the time
and my instructor was uninspiring, so I changed my major. I miss math, and read
math texts occasionally for fun and profit. ; )
My latest infatuation is information theory, which thankfully builds on statistical
and regression courses I've taken. I hope to apply something I learn from the
theory to my work in database engineering.
My post responded to the fine Herr Doktor's demands WE be upfront on its origins. I
meant to point out the double standard being used, and how unprovable and even
esoteric knowledge (math) drives the major sciences. Perhaps after I read the
highly recommended Erdos book, 'The man who loved only numbers', I will have
something further to say on the influences of pure number theory on one's spiritual
development. If such an argument can be made in the modern day, I suspect I will
find it in that book.
Again, I agree secular use of mathematics is lacking in the more occult aspects seen
in the early periods of occidental history. Perhaps in 2,000 years, WE will be
similarly divorced in the public eye from AS esoteric beginnings.
This is really all for the sake of argument, debate and understanding. Einstein
often wondered at math's uncanny ability to match observed reality, but I don't know
if he went further than speculation.
If one were to use the teleological argument for the existence of God (argument by
intelligent design), I would suggest using mathematics -- far more compelling than
any other arguments I have heard (St. Thomas Aquinas).
So granted a humble mathematician, I agree with most of your post.
e
PS What do you know of Egyptian Geometry? My WE friend in grad school at Colorado
is into Egyptian fractions. Sounds odd to me, I am trying to get him to work on
crypto hacks -- Like optimal factoring of large primes using lattices and solving
for the shortest vector. We are resting a great deal of e-commerce on a relatively
unproven field of math.
Michael Hirsch wrote:
) Ezra, you cut me to the quick! Is my mathematics (I am a
) mathematician by training and profession) just another religion?
)
) I think not. The big difference is that we mathematicians learned a
) couple hundred years ago not to make any claims about the _truth_ of
) our axioms. Once it was thought that Euclid's axioms were _the_
) axioms of nature. With the discovery of non-Euclidean geometries it
) became clear that axioms have no real content. In essence, we mathies
) are just playing logic games: "If you assume these axioms the this
) theorem holds." Never: "This theorem is the truth."
)
) Religious systems postulate various untestable statements as
) Truth--hubris no mathematician would ever contemplate. Fortunately
) for them, there is no way to ever prove them wrong.
)
) I think you might be able to make a pretty good case that the
) scientist's belief (as opposed to the mathematician's belief) in
) mathematics is somewhat religious. They use this abstract game that
) the math people invented to compute things about the world! How can
) they justify their faith in math?
)
) --Michael
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1167.4 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Learn before you leap/races in SWA
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 19:58:00 +0100
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Robert in NY wrote:
) I would like to be able to read more than just the passages selected, which
) I find interesting. However, your shorthand used as a cite ("TL" and
) "KU1") doesn't provide any assistance. Could you please use a standard
) cite, so that further investigation is feasible?
I think Dan uses abbreviations that he also uses at
http://www.waldorfcritics.org/articles/Racism_refs.html. At least KU1
can be found there; "Steiner, KU1 Steiner, Rudolf. The Karma of
Untruthfulness: Volume One. (1916) Trans. Johanna Collis. New York:
Anthroposophic Press, 1988". "TL" from 1905 seems to be missing though.
Sune
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1167.5 ---------------
From: Michael Hirsch (hirsch mathcs.emory.edu)
Subject: RE: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:51:18 -0500 (EST)
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Tolz, Robert writes:
)
)
) ) -----Original Message-----
) ) From: Michael Hirsch [mailto:hirsch mathcs.emory.edu]
)
) )
) ) Yes, this is a reasonable approach. For instance, I consider neither
) ) "political science" nor " social science" to be sciences. I am not
) ) too offended by the names, perhaps only because I am used to them. If
) ) "spiritual science" were used only as a name, and not as an attempt to
) ) claim the mantle of science, I would not object.
)
) So your objection to the phrase "spiritual science" is of
) approximately the same order as your objection to the phrases "political
) science" and "social science?"
Yes, as long as they don't claim it is science. But they do.
--Michael
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1167.6 ---------------
From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Re: Learn before you leap/races in SWA
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 20:49:49 +0100
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*** One thing I wish someone would answer: I have never heard the bit about
anthroposophy's view on the races of humanity. ...
-- Respectfully submitted by Lisa in Baltimore-
See Toos Jeurissen's [Dutch ex-Waldorf parent's] booklet, on line at
http://www.waldorfcritics.org/articles/waldorf_salad.html
As taught in The Netherlands Waldorf schools:
In the Dutch national daily Trouw, Wednesday 4 February 1998, the editor
for Education, Edwin Kreulen, a former student at the The Hague Waldorf
school, wrote a long article, "My education towards racism".
I posted this before on this list. I re-post because of Lisa's request.
Edwin Kreulen:
"According to page 1 of my [Waldorf] exercise book, all races originate
from a kind of primeval man, who lived ten thousand years ago in the
central continent of Atlantis; which, however, had to perish 'because of
abuse of the divine wisdom. On the bottom of the sea, one can still find
the remains of this continent as a long extensive reef'.
... 'With the first Southern races, the natural forces of earth and sun
have worked to blacken their skins. With the Northern races, the inner
forces of light became stronger, which made them whites.' 'The races became
stuck at different stages in their development from childhood to old age.'
Then comes a classification, linking the black race to childhood, the brown
race to a fourteen year old, and the whites to all ages ...
In this very chart, I thought the linking with parts of the body was as
least as remarkable. According to the exercise book, each race corresponds
to a part of the human body. Senses and brains are linked to whites,
metabolism to blacks. And only the white person has a straight face. Eg,
the yellow race has 'slanted eyes, a hollow face, flat nose, and coarse
black hair.'
Next, the exercise book discusses all races individually; except for us,
the whites, for we obviously know about that already. ... 'All negroes
still keep a childish expression on their faces for a long time. The lips
are shapeless and thick, the nose somewhat flat and not yet grown up in a
sense.' ... 'Their ["negroes"'] stories, their views on the world and
creation are somewhat childish. In childish simplicity they worship their
gods.' The chapter on the black race concludes: 'After being dominated for
centuries, the negroes are now developing on their own; however, this goes
with big problems and bloody wars.'
In my class, there was not a single non-European pupil. Usually, children
of more highly educated and more affluent Europeans go to Waldorf school.
So, I think: how would things be, had we had a black class mate, making it
possible for us to test directly the theory, whether he really had 'a
childish expression' on his face?
At a certain point, my defense of the school changes into pure anger. How
dare they indoctrinate me with this? And why did the government and its
inspectorate of education, not finish this? An anger, which only increases,
when today Anthroposophists, including a former teacher, keep defending
this by hook and by crook."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Herman de Tollenaere
---------------------------------------------------------------------
My Internet site on Asian history and "new" religions:
http://stad.dsl.nl/~hermantl/
See also SIMPOS, information on occult tendencies' impact on society:
http://www.stelling.nl/simpos/simpoeng.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1167.7 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: Re: Spiritual science, natural science and society (was Re:
Anthropops NOT welcome?)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 10:04:07 +1200
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Sune Nordwall wrote:
))Looking at the totality of the cell cycle of the eucharyote cell through
))interphase and mitosis, with your ordinary eyes, but also with inner
))concept forming activity somewhat trained in understanding the basics of
))symmetries and polarities of "cycles", the character of the cell cycle
))from this perspective - to my understanding - supports Steiner¥s
))assertion in the end of the first lecture in the series on "The
))Relationship of the Diverse Branches of Natural Science to Astronomy",
))that there is a deep relation between the life of at least the
))eucharyote cell and Cosmos in senses that almost noone has yet
))investigated.
And Dan Dugan answered:
)Sune, the fact that you can draw a parallel doesn't make a "deep relation."
)I rather think the analogy is trivial.
Michael KOPP says:
Aw, come on Dan, don't be so ... skeptical.
This is obviously another example of the same kind of "knowledge of higher
worlds" that informs the Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophical SWA teaching to
WE students of the deep relationships between the cosmos and ... us.
Like the time my son brought home a Class 9 or 10 English main lesson book
containing the astounding (to millions of English professors, that is)
revelation that Greek epic poetry of Homer's time, specifically dactylic
hexameter, was an outgrowth of the relationship between heart and breathing
rates and ratios, and the "platonic year", or precession of the equinoxes
(which was not even imagined until about 400 years after Homer).[*]
It seems that even English teachers in SWA schools are privy to
"scientific" knowledge that ordinary mortals aren't, and are prepared to
teach it to students of English (not science).
This lesson was one of the turning points in our relationship with our
former Steiner school. It was such mumbo jumbo, and so historically
inaccurate, that I had to ask the teacher for an explantion. This I did,
privately, in a personal letter which was very polite (yes, Virginia, Kopp
used to be polite -- I didn't even mention the words "mumbo jumbo").
All I ever got for my troubles was ... nothing. No answer. Nada. The next
time I saw the teacher, I didn't mention the matter, but it was obvious
that she felt something was required to mollify me. She informed me that my
letter "raised some interesting questions", but that she had been rather
busy lately, and "we must talk about this sometime". The time never
arrived, even in class parent-teacher meetings or formal teacher-parent
meetings.
I still don't have any answers to why and how this *unscientific*,
*unhistorical* mumbo jumbo came to be found in an _English_ lesson.
I conclude that it is just another example of the religion of
Anthroposophy, with its occult, mystical numeralogy, being taught on the
sly to unsuspecting students by unscrupulous SWA teachers.
[*] A fuller account of the details of this mumbo jumbo lesson is in the
archives. It can be found by searching on "dactylic hexameter" (not a
common subject on this discussion list). Or I can dig it up for any
interested parties.
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1167.8 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: learn before you leap (very long)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:30:32 -0800
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[posted for Bob Jones (b2251 yahoo.com) -dD-]
Dear Lisa:
What do we in Wisconsin mean by "take over?"
Our hospital's Family Practice Walk-In Clinic is staffed by 2 MDs who are
Waldorf parents. They hand out homeopathic remedies to anyone who walks in,
with no explaination, choice, or regard to what the patient's complaint may
be. They use acupuncture & homeopathic NSAIDS for strained muscles (which
does not work, BTW) The Nurse Practitioners there hand out herbal remedies
in the same manner. The hospital's computer memory contains over 5000
homeopathic remedies (so much for caring, sensitive, hands on medicine:
just punch it up in the computer). Children with otitis media (which
normally resolves on its own) are taken to an expensive treatment room &
held by an RN on salary who gives the child homeopathic tablets sub lingual
every ten minutes until the child feels better. This ups the costs for
legitimate medical care in a poor community and uses precious resources
that are short supply for reasons that only benefit the Waldorfian world
view.
Waldorf parents do not vaccinate kids or animals. Our population of
both is at risk. The homeopathic vet is putting our horse and cattle
industry at risk and this also affects the economy in terms of export, as well
as health and epidemic. The Waldorf MDs tell the parents not to vaccinate.
I am old enough to have _had_ pertussis and to remember it. Why would
anyone who was not an Anthroposophist subject their child to racking
cough and exhaustion and make them more vulnerable to opportunistic
disease? We have had pertussis epidemics here. We see way more measles
then before.Because vaccinations are not 100% effective & because some our
elders had the disease, but no vaccination over 75 years ago & have lost
some of their immunity, this threatens not only kids, but pregnant moms and
older folks and those whose immune systems are compromised. The
Anthroposophical Medicine worldview is to blame. Personally, I know of 4
patients who are being "strung along" on homeopathics & who may have
anything from highly contagious dermatitis to bleeding ulcers. We won't
know until the dreaded adverse event takes place.
This is the only hospital available within 45 miles. If it loses it's
certification, where will we go when we _need_ medical attention, fast?
We have a disproportionate number of poorly educated elderly in our
community and a large developmentally disabled population. They deserve
state-of-the-art, scientific medicine. Epileplitcs need anti-seizure
meds, not eurythmy & color therapy. Anthroposophical Medicine is
against this. We have been told by European medical authorities that in
Europe, when Anthroposophists take over (the European's word) institutions
for the developmentally disabled, the seizure meds for the children are
stopped because "it interfers with their fantasy."
You see, many of our grandparents came from Europe. Many of us have family
ties there, in Germany, Holland and Norway to this day. We have a large
Amish population with close ties to Switzerland. They all speak the
language & send us the newspapers. We _know_ that there is constant
criticism of Anthroposophy in the Dutch & German press. We are not paranoid.
We may live in the provinces, but we have educations, also & the Internet.
We understand that while most Waldorf parents do not know or care about
Anthroposophy, the Anthroposophists consider Waldorf, biodynamic farming,
Camphills and Anthroposophical medicine to be _practical_ anthroposophical
paths. The true genius of Steiner and the present day Anthroposophists is
the myriad ways the goal of conscious re-incarnation and awareness of and
ability to deal with Ahriman can be accomplished, not to mention the 3-fold
economy. Some on this list know all about this. Some don't. Many could care
less. But don't even bother being your usual arrogant selves and condescend
to inform me that I don't know what I'm talking about. I've been reading
this list for quite a while. Either you don't know or you find it useful to
deceive. It doesn't really matter, because truth will out. Always.
To continue:
Farming communities have noxious weed ordinances. These are violated by
biodynamic farmers. This is an economic insult in a community where
everyone turns out in spring to pull up mustard plants that make milk
unsaleable. In this area, people can lose government funding for cropland
set-asides if thistle or other weeds (there is a long list) are found on
the land.
When city people who want to live in the country come here and build
$300,000 mansions in a county with a per capita income of $14,000/year,
our property taxes go up and the families who have generational roots
are forced out. These same people post their land & now, people who
have hunted for food and for family bonding for generations have fewer
places to do so. The deer herds decimate the truck farms & corn fields because
of posted land & no hunting. Lyme disease increases, due more to the high
weeds than to the deer. The habitat means more rodents. The lack of hunting
& the prohibitions against draining wetlands mean more wildfowl and more
mosquitoes. We dread the advent of other tick-borne disease and of virus
that use fowl as a vector. We have a brand of encephalitis here, borne by
mosquitoes, that is devestating in children, but not too bad for most
adults. The Waldorf community wants zoning so that _they_ can live in
Paradise...this will mean that people whose only source of retirement
income is the sale of their family land of 200+ acres, will be forced to
break it up into smaller parcels which will take longer to sell. These
parcels will not be economic to farm. There goes our culture. The
Waldorfians do not like the smell of manure. In a farming area, we call it
the smell of money. They are agitating for limits on the size of herds and
flocks of all species; no animal-based economy to tide us over when milk
prices fall.
Our roads are narrow & winding and dangerous, not suited for today's
machinery and truck transport that is the lifeblood of our communities.
But Waldorf parents like the scenic quality of these death traps &
agitate to stop road improvement. They have money, time and connections.
We lose.
In 2 communities in our small, poor county, the push is on for Charter
Waldorf. We get to pay for this. We cannot afford it. Our public
schools are excellent. Our lower middle & working class kids need the
preparation for the world of commerce that upper class kids, like the
children of the aformentioned MDs, may receive at home or may not need
due to inherited family affluence.
Waldorf graduates who transfer into the public system are
disproportionately Learning Disabled. This is established by testing &
performance. This is known as a 504 & _costs_ the district in money and
personnel time spent disproportionately on Waldorf transfers. The
Waldorf transfers are discipline problems & I mean they carry knives,
are belligerent & whine that they need to do this because they are
"picked on" by being required to meet standards everyone else must
meet.
Our ex-DA, a Waldorf parent, did not uphold the law equally and was
lenient in cases involving parents from his child's school or crimes _he_
judged as non-victim. We paid his salary and we paid for the improvements
made for his comfort in his publicly owned office. We are now paying for
the new, local DA to clean up the mess and go forward with a backlog of
cases not prosecuted. Our drug related crime has increased. Federal
authorities have and are here because of this. Waldorf parents have been
arrested in these regards and Waldorf grads, as well as Waldorf high school
students are truant, seen loitering on the Waldorf elementary school
playground smoking both cigarettes & pot, in direct contravention of State
and local law. When apprised of the situation, the Waldorf administration
said:"What do you expect us to do about it?" The Waldorf school refused to
implement a fire drill or any safety programs, including the need for seat
belts and the DARE program. Since the Fire Chief had a talk with them and
told them they were endangering EVERYONE and he had the power to impose
sanctions, a fire policy has been implemented, but it took a strong action.
Strong truancy laws have just been enacted and they apply to private
students.
The number of child abuse cases, teacher/student sexual affairs, drug and
alcohol provision to Waldorf students by their parents and teachers is
epidemic
and obvious to us all and the message to the Waldorf students (which the
kids parrot at every opportunity) is "We do not choose to obey those laws."
In Baltimore, a small cultural enclave goes unnoticed. Ethnic food and
folkways are quaint, attractive and add to an ambiance. In a town of 4000,
500 people become a voting block. In a county of 27,000, with 19,000
registered voters, a combined population of Waldorfians & old hippies can
swing the vote with decent organizing. The presence of the alienated,
dissaffected Waldorf transfers (who can vote at 18) in the high school has,
for the first time, polarized the high school population and been the
nucleus of a delinquent group that can recruit children who come from
emotionally troubled homes. Before, these kids had a chance to make normal
friends and to excel in school and sports and to go out into the world and
make lives for themselves. We have nationally known figures in NASA and
sports who have done so from this county. Waldorf students in high school
are not as active in sports as their public school counterparts &
consequently get into more trouble.
A Waldorf parent/certified teacher began a Charter school based on
environmentalism in a neighboring county even poorer than ours. The
students trashed the building and the 504 costs were way out of line for
any of the surrounding districts. The district terminated the school and
other boards sold old school buildings to the villages for $1/each to keep
this from repeating.
Waldorf parents make use of our community hockey arena, supported by
volunteers & donations & fundraisers. They do not "give back". In fact,
the constant whine is for everyone to "gift" Waldorf, while they do not
participate in any community charity events AT ALL. Where they do get
involved, they state clearly in their own newsletter and tell us to our
face, that they will run the cultural events in the future.
Limited Title 6 funds are drained from our public schools by Waldorf
elementary & high school.
They purchase homes and businesses and will sell them only to other
Waldorf parents. We are told these buildings are not available to
us...sometimes when they had been the home or land of relatives or the
business of a family for generations. If forced to sell outside the Waldorf
community,the asking price is raised for the non-Waldorfians. Businesses
in the area are very aware that while the Waldorf community is growing,
the result is not seen on the local bottom lines. Waldorf parents
purchase elite goods by mail or travel 100 miles to buy politically
correct products or form buying clubs which cut out local merchants.
When a popular business, developed by & supported by Waldorf parents
could not find a buyer in the Waldorf community and was eventually sold
to non-Waldorfians at a price 15% higher than that asked of Waldorf
parents, the Waldorf community boycotted it because:"It's not _ours_
now." This business will close soon. The new owners will be forced out
of the area because they are not Waldorf.
We have an Associative Economics Center. We are afraid that eventually we
will have an Anthroposophical Bank, as we already have Anthroposophical
businesses that do not benefit those who are not biodynamic farmers, New
Agers or work within Anthroposophical philosophies. These businesses will
be able to charter a private bank, as they are way more successful than any
locally oriented businesses, due to import-export opportunities not
available to non-Anthroposophists or those without family fortunes &
connections. What do you imagine will happen to at least 2 out of 4 small
local banks? They will fail.
We have several older, German-speaking Anthroposophists here now,
recruiting among the Masons, the followers of Ek, Mormons and the New
Agers. They tell the recruits that while they respect their present
beliefs, there is a better way to the same end: Anthroposophy, or white
magic. They are also implementing import/export enterprises between here &
Switzerland, here and an Anthroposophical coffee plantation in Mexico, and
here and Santa Marta, Columbia (this one is a notorious connection to
Columbian narco cartels & has been for 25 years.) That is personal
knowledge, not speculation. We were all young once, too & members of the
counter culture.
Waldorf parents are running for political office with clearly stated
agendas to change our economy, our culture and the very fabric of our
agriculturally-based lives. Many of us are moving out. Many of us now
travel 50 miles for medical care.
We call this a take over.
What do you call it?
If a proportionate number of Caucasian, conservative, politically
right-wing Christians colonized the inner city of Baltimore, would you yell
cultural imperialism? Theocratic genocide? How about if the same group
moved into your Yuppie enclaves in numbers large enough to swing the vote,
put Christian values back into the schools, only hired or traded with
Christians, lobbied to put nightclubs and bookstores and bars out of
business? Is that oppression?
There has been a recent thread about "the good life." We do have spiritual
values: we teach them in our homes and in our churches. Our schools
emphasize respect and honesty and hard work and ethical behavior; reverence
for life and life-long learning. Our children volunteer in the nursing
homes and in the hospital. We have at least one charity fundraiser a month
and our kids help in preparation and presentation. We have youth groups and
school clubs and after school groups that exist to foster values and
culture and religion.Our children grow up in the woods, fields, rivers, on
horseback and with lots of various animals. They are extremely aware of the
seasons and the weather and the crops and the rythm of the land. We want
material comfort for our children, also. Our parents tell Depression
stories most of you would not believe. We have people here, now, today,
under 70 who tell of being given a single bullet in the morning. If they
shot something, they ate. Simplicity? We _are_ simplicity. Do not teach us
how to suck eggs, children. We have been there & done that onto the 3rd
generation.
Waldorf is an airheaded pedagogy suited to people with more time &
money than brains. (sorry if that is an ad hominem). We do not care if they
educate their kids to be unable to compete in the modern world. Our kids
need the public education we have all worked hard to support & provide.
They need to go to major State Universities, because we cannot afford
private university. They need to work in order to get there and while they
are there and then they need good jobs to pay off the loans.
Alternative medicine is another personal choice that should not be
foisted on poor, uneducated folks with real medical needs. Let the alt
medders go into private practice, not monopolize our scant public resources.
We are a stubborn, independant bunch of country hicks. We rarely have
needed to band together beyond our families and churches. So, in a way,
this infiltration has been a blessing because now we must work together,
even if only in small, ad hoc ways. And we are doing it. Waldorf helps by
being deceptive because eventually people wake up and when they do, they
respond EXACTLY as Michael Kopp, Dan Dugan, Deby Snell and Kathleen Sutphen
have: they get mad and they are not going to put up with any more than they
must.
So, if this is one school, one difficult personality, one delusions, how
come we hear about in in California, New Zealand, Midwest America?
EVERYTHING Kopp, Dugan, Snell, Sutphen & the various other critics over the
years (I have read _all_ the archives) jibes. It is all the same behavior,
the same lesson plans, the same prayers, the same groupthink. And even the
Europeans, who have known Anthroposophists for 80 years, are tired of it.
Be honest, defenders: those of you who speak German & Dutch and Norweigian
and Swedish...translate those newspaper articles from Zurich that are in
the archives. Translate the Swedish Skeptics site. Tell us what the
European Council on Dangerous Sects said, because even though they
refrained from naming specific groups, our Belgian friends have verified
that Anthroposophy is on that list.
Lie to yourselves if you must; it is none of our concern. But do not lie to
us any longer, because we ALL know better.
Bob F. Jones
Viroqua, WI
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1167.9 ---------------
From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Learn before you leap/races in SWA
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 06:46:08 +0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: (199903262313.PAA00894 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903262313.PAA00894 lists1.best.com)
Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl) wrote:
)As taught in The Netherlands Waldorf schools:
As Dr de Tollenaere well knows, this teaching is old news (it happened
many years ago) and the offending Dutch Waldorf schools have long since
cleaned up their acts in this regard.
I wonder why Dr de Tollenaere insists on citing isolated historical, as
opposed to common present day, practice. Just about any type of
education has, in its past, aspects which would be considered
unacceptable by modern standards.
Noctis Gaudia Carpe,
Stephen
--
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+ Stephen Tonkin | ATM Resources; Astro-Tutorials; Astronomy Books +
+ (N50.9105 W1.829) | (http://www.aegis1.demon.co.uk) +
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1167.10 ---------------
From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Anthropops NOT welcome?
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 06:44:46 +0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: (199903252133.NAA20836 lists1.best.com)
(199903261745.JAA08473 lists1.best.com)
(199903261827.KAA10937 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903261827.KAA10937 lists1.best.com)
Steve Premo (premo cruzio.com) wrote:
)That's true, but in modern usage, that "limited/special case" is the
)common meaning of the term "science," at least in the absence of
)some modifier such as "spiritual science."
For orthodox scientists you are almost certainly correct; for the
general global population (or possibly even for the general US
population), I suspect you are incorrect (in that a majority haven't a
clue about "scientific method").
)"Social science" is another case entirely, in that it is an attempt to
)apply the scientific method to social phenomena. Whether it
)succeeds in this is open to question,
No question at all for me -- it fails -- miserably.
)To the extent that "spiritual science" claims to offer a way to gain
)knowledge of physical matters, though, I think that it is unreliable.
I tend to agree; but that does not mean it must always be wrong.
Noctis Gaudia Carpe,
Stephen
--
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+ Stephen Tonkin | ATM Resources; Astro-Tutorials; Astronomy Books +
+ (N50.9105 W1.829) | (http://www.aegis1.demon.co.uk) +
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n1167 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n1168 --------------
001 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Canada agency report on Anthroposophical Cancer remedy
002 - Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis - Re: learn before you leap (very long)
003 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Canada agency report on Anthroposophical Cancer remedy
004 - Herman de Tollenaere (her - Re: Learn before you leap/races in SWA
005 - Bob Jones (b2251 yahoo.co - learn before you leap(very long)
006 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Learn before you leap/races in SWA
007 - Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis - Re: learn before you leap(very long)
008 - Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis - Re: Learn before you leap/races in SWA
009 - Tarjei Straume (tastraum - Re: learn before you leap(very long)
010 - Bob Jones (b2251 yahoo.co - Re: learn before you leap(very long)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1168.1 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Canada agency report on Anthroposophical Cancer remedy
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 20:47:24 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
See this:
http://www.bccancer.bc.ca/uctm/19.html
British Columbia Cancer Agency on Iscador..adds to philosophical aspects.
Did you know it is clasified & prescribed according to the type of tree it
grew on?
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1168.2 ---------------
From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: learn before you leap (very long)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 13:50:40 +0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: (199903270435.UAA22780 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199903270435.UAA22780 lists1.best.com)
Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com) wrote:
)[posted for Bob Jones (b2251 yahoo.com) -dD-]
)
)What do we in Wisconsin mean by "take over?"
[...]
If the contents of that post were an accurate and balanced description
of the situation, they don't make very nice reading. Having one's
homeland colonised or taken over by people with different values must be
a thoroughly unpleasant experience. Colonisation or take-over is hardly
a new phenomenon though, neither is it one which is by any stretch of
the imagination limited to anthroposophists. (I'm not trying to excuse
it, if it is an intentional thing -- I am, however, pointing to
something which history suggests in inevitable sooner or later).
I'm woefully ignorant of American history and geography (I had to look
Wisconsin up in the atlas), but perhaps someone could tell me how the
levels of violence and intimidation in this "take-over" compare to the
last time this land was taken over by people with different values to
the incumbents?
I apologise if my attempts to put this into an historical perspective
display my ignorance -- please educate me; I also apologise if they
appear to be trivialising what is obviously a very real problem for some
people -- that is not my intention.
Noctis Gaudia Carpe,
Stephen
--
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+ Stephen Tonkin | ATM Resources; Astro-Tutorials; Astronomy Books +
+ (N50.9105 W1.829) | (http://www.aegis1.demon.co.uk) +
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1168.3 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Canada agency report on Anthroposophical Cancer remedy
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 15:15:22 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199903271027.CAA12840 lists1.best.com)
Dan Dugan wrote:
) British Columbia Cancer Agency on Iscador..adds to philosophical aspects.
) Did you know it is clasified & prescribed according to the type of tree it
) grew on?
I remember in 1984 (at the time working in a research project at the
Cancer Epidemiological Unity at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm)
reading something that probably is the first reference mentioned in the
"Summary" on the site. The journal I read ran a series refuting what it
termed "Unproven methods of cancer management".
Memory having faded somewhat after 15 years, yet it tells me one basic
"proof" of the _"non-effect"_ of mistletoe on cancer put forth was that
an experimental study on artificially induced tumors in mice showed that
it only lead to the reduction in the size of the tumour by "25%" and not
the for some reason chosen criterion of "50%".
The argument was that as the study showed that the mistletoe preparation
chosen "only" reduced the size of the tumour by 25%, it showed that
mistletoe had "no" effect on the tumour.
The "logic" used (at least the part published) in the article of the
journal of the respectable society as a central "argument" in the
"refutation" of the effect of mistletoe as a component in the treatment
of cancer really made an impression on me.
What is shortly termed "evidence" in the sentence "no evidence had been
provided that Iscador has anticancer activity against human cancer" of
the second reference in the summary probably refers to "double blind
randomized clinical trials".
The methodology demands that the patient (informed, approving and
consciuosly or not informed, not approving and unknowingly) be reduced
to the status of guinea pig, a methodology almost used by no
anthroposophically oriented researcher for mainly ethical reasons, as it
not only reduces the patient to the state of guinea pig but also
dissolves the responsibiity and relation of the doctor to the individual
patient he is treating in favor of a more abstract responsibility to
"any" patient.
Instead other control methods, like the method of matched pairs used in
the present study of the treatment of breast cancer at the
(anthroposophical) Vidar Clinic in Jaerna (near Stockholm) are used,
when used. The study is done in cooperation with "Radiumhemmet" at the
Karolinska Hospital and the partner in the pair is a reasonably
comparable patient treated an oncological clinic in the Stockholm area.
The study does not intrude in the doctor-patient relation and the
patients have themselves chosen the type of doctor to be treated by.
Experimental and clinical research methodology admittedly still is a
weak point in anthroposophically oriented medicine. Personally I have
some sympathy for the summary of another Canadian group; "Canadian
Breast Cancer Research Initiative" (http://www.breast.cancer.ca/) on
Iscador, one of the forms of mistletoe medicine at
http://www.breast.cancer.ca/english/alt/iscad_ec.htm.
Behind the initiative stand
Breast Cancer International Centre
Canadian Breast Cancer Foundation
Canadian Breast Cancer Network
Canadian Cancer Society
Health Canada
Medical Research Council
National Cancer Institute of Canada
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n1168.4 ---------------
From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Re: Learn before you leap/races in SWA
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 15:58:14 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
*** One thing I wish someone would answer: I have never heard the bit about
anthroposophy's view on the races of humanity. ...
-- Respectfully submitted by Lisa in Baltimore-
I reacted:
)See Toos Jeurissen's [Dutch ex-Waldorf parent's] booklet,
on recent events
)on line at
)http://www.waldorfcritics.org/articles/waldorf_salad.html
[+ long article from Dutch national daily Trouw, by a former student at the
The Hague Waldorf school]
Stephen Tonkin reacted:
)As Dr de Tollenaere well knows, this teaching is old news (it happened
many years ago)
)and the offending Du