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-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n965 --------------
001 - BruceyJ aol.com - Re: Saying no to Waldorf
002 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: Saying no to Waldorf
003 - SINGERCARP aol.com - Re: Saying no to Waldorf
004 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: Saying no to Waldorf
005 - Robert Tolz (rtolz cosmow - Publish Names and Addresses of PLANS Directors
006 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: Publish Names and Addresses of PLANS Directors
007 - spike (spike netshel.net) - Generalizations
008 - SINGERCARP aol.com - Re: Sleazy
009 - spike (spike netshel.net) - Points of View
010 - Herman de Tollenaere (her - Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n965.1 ---------------
From: BruceyJ aol.com
Subject: Re: Saying no to Waldorf
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 17:19:16 EST
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In einer eMail vom 31.10.98 22:44:55 MEZ, schreiben Sie:
(( I was asked by a potential Waldorf parent for some information on Waldorf,
particularly where remedial instruction was involved. I sent her quotes
from Steiner and Audrey McAllen's book, "Sleep". This is her response.
-ds
)Hi Debra,
)
)After discovering some very, very disturbing materials in the philosphical
)writings of Rudolph Steiner - racist, ant-semetic,etc. we've decided to
)withdraw our son's application to the Waldorf school we were looking at. We
)discussed what we'd read with the admissions person and she was unwilling
)to acknowledge the material at first and then admitted that the school did
)not refute these teachings or that they were a manifest part of Waldorf
)teacher training.
)Sorry, but Nazis with water colors and beezwax crayons are still Nazis.
)For now, we're going to take our chances with the local public school and
)see what we can do there to make it more interesting for Joshua.
)I can not thank you enough for the heads-up.
)Nancy
)
))
Hi Nancy!
Are you simply saying that you are proud to have turned someone away from
Waldorf, or have I missed your point?
Bruce Jackson
Waldorf teacher
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n965.2 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: Saying no to Waldorf
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 15:23:17 -0800
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In-Reply-To: (199810312221.OAA20119 lists1.best.com)
)
)Hi Nancy!
)Are you simply saying that you are proud to have turned someone away from
)Waldorf, or have I missed your point?
)
)Bruce Jackson
)Waldorf teacher
Hi, I'm not Nancy. I had nothing to do with turning anyone away from
Waldorf. Steiner and Audrey McAllen's writings AND the Waldorf teacher
refusing to refute either had everything to do with turning someone away
from Waldorf.
-ds
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n965.3 ---------------
From: SINGERCARP aol.com
Subject: Re: Saying no to Waldorf
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 19:29:53 EST
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On November 2st, 1998 0:25:19 Uhr, Debra wrote:
)Hi, I'm not Nancy. I had nothing to do with turning anyone away from
)Waldorf. Steiner and Audrey McAllen's writings AND the Waldorf teacher
)refusing to refute either had everything to do with turning someone away
)from Waldorf.
)-ds
Debra,
if you have nothing to do with it - why did you broadcast it in the first
place?
What is your role?
Tom Singer-Carpenter
Switzerland/Germany
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n965.4 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: Saying no to Waldorf
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 16:59:42 -0800
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In-Reply-To: (199811010031.QAA05179 lists1.best.com)
)
)Debra,
)if you have nothing to do with it - why did you broadcast it in the first
)place?
)What is your role?
Err, this _is_ the Waldorf critics list, Tom. For no negatives, join the
SJU Waldorf list. Perhaps you haven't read PLANS mission statement. Our
goal is to inform the public about Anthroposophy and it's tie to Waldorf
education. Anthroposophy fits some folks' belief system and not others.
Apparently it didn't fit hers.
-ds
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n965.5 ---------------
From: Robert Tolz (rtolz cosmoweb.net)
Subject: Publish Names and Addresses of PLANS Directors
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 22:30:32 -0500
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References: (199810312137.NAA03648 lists1.best.com)
Debra Snell wrote (quoting someone to whom she had given some materials
about Waldorf):
) )Sorry, but Nazis with water colors and beezwax crayons are still Nazis.
Madame President, you have usually given me the impression on this list
of being a reasonable person. Now I see you're disseminating materials
that equate Waldorf with Nazis.
I would very much appreciate if you would make public the names and
addresses of the trustees or directors of PLANS so that I can
communicate with them.
Bob
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n965.6 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: Publish Names and Addresses of PLANS Directors
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 20:48:44 -0800
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References: (199810312137.NAA03648 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199811010333.TAA14820 lists1.best.com)
)Debra Snell wrote (quoting someone to whom she had given some materials
)about Waldorf):
)) )Sorry, but Nazis with water colors and beezwax crayons are still Nazis.
)
)Madame President, you have usually given me the impression on this list
)of being a reasonable person. Now I see you're disseminating materials
)that equate Waldorf with Nazis.
Nor did I say that I agreed with her position. It is a good example of the
conclusions folks come to [completely on their own] after reading
Anthroposophical material. The teacher's response was the straw that broke
the camel's back. The family is Jewish...
)
)I would very much appreciate if you would make public the names and
)addresses of the trustees or directors of PLANS so that I can
)communicate with them.
I will defer this to our secretary, Dan Dugan. (I recently paid to have my
system upgraded, in addition to having some other work done. My computer is
mostly fixed, but I lost all the data on my software - have been focusing
on our business files, and haven't even thought of replacing PLANS stuff
yet.) It is public information and you are welcome to it.
BTW, my computer doesn't think it has a CD Rom drive - even though it is
on in the extensions file. Any ideas?
-ds
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n965.7 ---------------
From: spike (spike netshel.net)
Subject: Generalizations
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 22:05:40 -0800
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Charlie Frey posted:
) Ezra Pound was a rabid anti-semite.
) Everything he said must be wrong. ;-}
)
) xxxooo,
) Charlie Frey
. . . in reply to my post:
) "Any general statement is like a checque drawn on a bank. Its value
) depends on what is there to meet it." Ezra Pound
Charlie - you get the gold star for knowledgeable participation. I
tossed out this tidbit and waited for its denunciation, based on Pound's
checkered life. I was surprised that it did not surface immediately. You
are learned.
However, I still think the quote has merit. And no . . . I don't think
everything Steiner said was *wrong*, nor do I think he was a rabid
anti-semite. I believe he was a man of his times and showed great talent
in several areas, some of which are are in opposition to my own values.
Kathy
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n965.8 ---------------
From: SINGERCARP aol.com
Subject: Re: Sleazy
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 05:49:51 EST
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Robert Tolz wrote to Kathy on October 28th, 1998 19:40:56
)I am "intrigued" only by the fact that you and a couple of others seem
)to be so hell-bent on painting a picture which is at such variance with
)my own experience.(...
) I think I'm most outraged (as if you couldn't tell by all my posts
)on the subject) by the attempt to paint Steiner, Anthroposophy and
)Waldorf as sleazy by associating them with the rise of Nazism. Being a
)member of the "race" which the Nazis sought to eradicate, I am sensitive
)to anybody exploiting that historical episode in order to advance their
)separate agenda. That's what I believe PLANS has done, and that brings
)the sleaze-factor right back over to PLANS' doorstep.(
I would like Kathy to answer to this and take into account the effect of
the repeated claim of Naziism in Anthroposophy today on people
sensitive to the subject. I have not yet heard from Michael Kopp either
since I wrote to him:
)I happen to belong to the people who's parents generation faced
)the well-known *treatment* by the Nazis for being anthroposophists.
)My parents left Germany for Switzerland where I was born. It
)hurts to be on the side of the victims in the first place and to be
)blamed later for the opposite role, as if things hadn't been clear
)enough back then in the 30/40ies...
Who are you fighting against?
Tom Singer-Carpenter
Switzerland/Germany
(Holding on to my Swiss passport)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n965.9 ---------------
From: spike (spike netshel.net)
Subject: Points of View
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 07:58:03 -0800
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References: (199810312137.NAA03648 lists1.best.com)
List Members,
While reading last night I happened upon a poem that I felt, in part,
addressed our ongoing dialogue and arguments regarding Anthroposophy,
Steiner, Waldorf education and all that these encompass. Thought some of
you might enjoy it. (We 'Critics', *all* of us here, may take some
pleasure from Browning's artful insight.)
" . . . Take plain prose -
Dealers in common sense, set these at work,
What can they do without their helpful lies?
Each states the law and fact and face o'the thing
Just as he'd have them, finds what he thinks fit,
Is blind to what missuits him, just records
What makes his case out, quite ignores the rest.
It's a History of the World, the Lizard Age,
The Early Indians, the Old Country War,
Jerome Napoleon, whatsoever you please.
All as the author wants it. Such a scribe
You pay and praise for putting life in stones,
Fire into fog, making the past your world.
There's plenty of 'How did you contrive to grasp
The thread which led you through this labyrinth?
How build such solid fabric out of air?
How on so slight foundation found this tale,
Biography, narrative?' or, in other words,
'How many lies did it require to make
The portly truth you here present us with?'
Robert Browning - "Mr Sludge, 'the Medium'"
*My pleasure is yours - Kathy
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n965.10 ---------------
From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 20:24:47 +0100
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In-Reply-To: (199810312137.NAA03648 lists1.best.com)
)From: Robert Tolz (rtolz cosmoweb.net)
)Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 16:18:14 -0500
) Herman, could you double-check the URL on that. I'm getting a "file
)not found" error.
Sorry! It should be
http://www.stelling.nl/simpos/social.htm#Rass
with information on links between Nazism and occult tendencies
) My only research tool is the internet, and
)I'm sure that one could do much higher quality research elsewhere,
As about Robert's other points: I could write dozens of pages about them. I
will reply to them as time [which I do not really have now] allows.
At the moment, I will just say some too concise and too hurried things. Far
better material than the undocumented occult apologies of Madame Blavatsky
[Robert quoted an attack on well-known historians like George Mosse, James
Webb, etc. who documented Blavatsky's role], etc., which one may find on
the Internet, are
-Goodrick-Clarke's article "The Modern Occult Revival in Vienna", in
Theosophical History, Jan. 1986, p. 97-111 [not on line, as far as I know].
It shows the Vienna Theosophical Society lodge was a corporate member of
the Guido von List Gesellschaft, the fan club of pre-Nazi Ariosophist Guido
von List. So, any individual joining Theosophical Society in Vienna got
membership of an anti-Semitic organization into the bargain [leading lodge
members joined the Guido von List Gesellschaft individually as well, to
make extra sure]. This was in the 1900s, as Steiner presided over the
German and Austrian Theosophical Society. Steiner was very familiar with
Vienna; the local lodge must have been near and dear to him.
-the German historian Helmut Zander (1996), ëSozialdarwinistischen
Rassentheorien aus dem okkulten Untergrund des Kaiserreichs [Social
Darwinist racial theories from the occult underground of the [second,
pre-1918 German] Empire]', in: Uwe Puschner, Walter Schmitz and Justus H.
Ulbricht (eds.), Handbuch zur ªV–lkischen Bewegung´; 1871-1918; M¸nchen:
Saur; 224-252 [negative on Steiner's racial doctrines. Anti-Semites like
Guido von List and Lanz von Liebenfels wrote in German Theosophical
magazines during Steiner's presidency].
-Similar articles by Dutch historians like Gjalt Zondergeld, Vrije
Universiteit Amsterdam [unfortunatelty not on the Internet], and Jan Willem
de Groot, Universiteit van Amsterdam; see
http://www.stelling.nl/simpos/antro1.htm
and
http://www.stelling.nl/simpos/antro2.htm
[both in Dutch. They concentrate on occult ideas of Aryans as "solar",
non-whites and "Semites" as "lunar" people; nineteenth century German
racist philosopher Carl Gustav Carus influenced both Nazis and
Anthroposophists in this. At least three years ago, this was taught to 13
year olds in Dutch Waldorf schools. See the booklet by Toos Jeurissen,
English version at
http://www.waldorfcritics.org/articles/waldorf_salad.html
]
In The Netherlands, Zweers is an Anthroposophical musicologist, involved in
Waldorf since before 1940. Zweers was also a contributor on the racial
differences between Aryan and Jewish music of De Volksche Wacht, Dutch SS
magazine in the 1940s. He was the keynote speaker at a Waldorf school
jubilee in 1996.
Anthroposophists nowadays (like Arfst Wagner in Flensburger Hefte) write
that the German Weleda Anthroposophical pharmaceuthical firm sold
alternative medicine to the SS and its concentration camp guards during the
war [it may not have cured; that is a very different point, however].
I could go on. However, it is far past midnight.
Do Nazis, (non-members of the Anthroposophical Society, differing in this
from Haverbeck etc.) today quote Steiner in their support? Some do. The
Belgian neo-Nazi Koenraad Logghe does. Dutch racist astrologer Mellie
Uijldert, contributor on Germanic runes to SS publications in the 1940s,
does [I am not certain about her Anthroposophical Society membership.
Probably not, at least now].
The German Armanen Orden bases itself not only on Guido von List, but also
on Steiner.
See
http://www.stelling.nl/simpos/asatru.htm [page in English; most texts in
German]
http://www.stelling.nl/simpos/heidenen.htm [more links; page in Dutch; most
texts in German]
Are Anthroposophists Nazis? Certainly: no, most of them [however, Haverbeck
... Bondarew ... the magazine What goes on in the Anthroposophical Society
[see my posts on them in the archives]. They usually did not join because
of racial ideas. They found them after joining.
Should they look more critically at unexpected uncomfortable connections?
Definitely yes.
best wishes,
------------------------------------------
Herman de Tollenaere
------------------------------------------
Internet site:
http://stad.dsl.nl/~hermantl/
See also:
http://www.stelling.nl/simpos/simpoeng.htm
------------------------------------------
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n965 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n966 --------------
001 - Robert Tolz (rtolz cosmow - Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
002 - sean murray (snmurray iol - Re:Archives
003 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Publish Names and Addresses of PLANS Directors
004 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - mileiu control
005 - Robert Flannery (litvas i - Re: Publish Names and Addresses of PLANS Directors
006 - spike (spike netshel.net) - Sleazy
007 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Publish Names -- correction
008 - Robert Flannery (litvas i - Re: mileiu control
009 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Publish Names and Addresses of PLANS Directors
010 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re:Archives
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n966.1 ---------------
From: Robert Tolz (rtolz cosmoweb.net)
Subject: Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 16:09:00 -0500
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References: (199811012019.MAA21875 lists1.best.com)
Herman de Tollenaere wrote
)
) As about Robert's other points: I could write dozens of pages about them. I
) will reply to them as time [which I do not really have now] allows.
Thanks for whatever time you're able to put into this.
I think the jackpot question is the last one I asked, which really
deals with whether it is logical to tie someone or something to the
Nazis on the sole basis that the Nazis found some support or solace
there. If Adolf Hitler liked green shirts, that shouldn't make feel a
loathing towards green shirts.
Bob
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n966.2 ---------------
From: sean murray (snmurray iol.ie)
Subject: Re:Archives
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 00:42:54 GMT
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At 04:21 25/10/98 -0800, you wrote:
)
)--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n958.10 ---------------
)
)From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
)Subject: Re: Why, how?
)Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 01:01:29 +1300
)I'd like to answer this question for myself, though it wasn't asked of me.
)
)I don't think Dugan is all that angry. He strikes me as a formidable critic
)of a cult-like religion of spritualism. He has told his personal Waldorf
)story on his Web site and reiterated much of it over the yearson this list.
)I and some other disillusioned and disabused parents have also told our
)stories in great detail.
)
)Perhaps you should read the archives more carefully before you ask such
)questions, with their implicit denigration of our concerns?
)
)_I'm_ angry because Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophical mumbo jumbo and
)cultists ruined five years of my family's lives through duplicity and
)stealth.
)Michael Kopp
)Wellington, New Zealand
Hi Michael,
I've just joined the list after finding the PLANS page. I have got major
major family problems at the moment as a result of a Steiner connection. I
am very interested in learning about other people's experiences,
particularly any misappropriation of funds/property etc. information on how
Waldorf property is owned, how it is funded ?
Can you give me any directions, how do I search the archives ?
Any help appreciated, thanks
Sean Murray
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n966.3 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Publish Names and Addresses of PLANS Directors
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 12:57:21 -0800
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References: (199810312137.NAA03648 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199811010333.TAA14820 lists1.best.com)
Robert Tolz, you wrote,
)Debra Snell wrote (quoting someone to whom she had given some materials
)about Waldorf):
)) )Sorry, but Nazis with water colors and beezwax crayons are still Nazis.
)
)Madame President, you have usually given me the impression on this list
)of being a reasonable person. Now I see you're disseminating materials
)that equate Waldorf with Nazis.
(Forrest Gump voice) Nazis is as Nazis does. (/Forrest Gump voice)
)I would very much appreciate if you would make public the names and
)addresses of the trustees or directors of PLANS so that I can
)communicate with them.
Most of the board of PLANS, a California non-profit charitable corporation,
are on this mailing list, so you're communicating with us now. Debra Snell
and I (Dan Dugan) volunteer to publish our addresses and take care of
public communications (praise, hate mail, threats of lawsuits, etc.)
PLANS Board of Directors*
President: Debra Snell (former Waldorf parent, former private Waldorf
school board member, co-founder of a Waldorf charter school)
(snell netshel.net)
Debra Snell
12562 Rough and Ready Highway
Grass Valley, CA 95945
(650) 273-1005
Vice-President: Kathleen Sutphen (public school teacher, former public
Waldorf school teacher)
Secretary: Dan Dugan (former Waldorf parent)
(plans dandugan.com)
290 Napoleon Street Studio E
San Francisco, CA 94124
(415) 821-9776
Judy Daar (public school teacher)
Dr. James M. Morton, Jr. (Baptist pastor, retired)
Daniel Sabsay (President, East Bay Skeptics Society)
PLANS Supporting Advisors*
Joseph E. Morrow, PhD (Department of Psychology, California State
University, Sacramento)
James Randi (James Randi Educational Foundation)
Dr. Wallace Sampson, M.D. (Editor, The Scientific Review of Alternative
Medicine)
Dr. Eugenie Scott (National Center for Science Education)
David R. Stronck (Department of Teacher Education, California State
University, Hayward)
*Organizations listed for identification only.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n966.4 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: mileiu control
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 16:42:37 -0800
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Our correspondent Robert Flannery has put me on the mailing list for the
newsletter of the Green Meadow Waldorf School, where he's currently Third
Grade Class Teacher. It's a professional production. This school,
associated with Sunbridge College, the main east-coast Waldorf teacher
seminary, obviously has it together.
The current issue describes their Halloween event, The Lantern Walk, "a
candlelit world alive with characters from folk stories and fairy tales, as
well as characters who usually dwell in the realm of the unseen--the nature
folk...The students of Sunbridge College and the School of Eurythmy will
make the characters come to life."
Note the implication that "the characters who usually dwell in the realm of
the unseen" are real. But more interesting is the instructions to parents:
"Parents can also help to create a 'magical' atmosphere by not encouraging
conversation along the path and by not interacting with the characters.
This will allow your young child's imagination to participate in this
world, and encourages an experience deeper than what any explanation can
offer. Please, no pictures!"
Now, in European culture it's a convention that we don't talk to each
other, take pictures or interact with characters in the church, theater or
concert hall. This is why we don't take little kids to the theater; their
demands for explanations interrupt the "magic" of the willing suspension of
disbelief. But, to me, there seems to be something strange about turning a
contemporary American tradition, the haunted house walk-through, into a
serious Waldorf pedagogical event. Parents are instructed to give up their
guidance rights so that the children can be exposed to the programmed
series of images without intellectual interference.
Scholars of cult phenomena have a term for this. They call it "milieu control."
"Many things happen psychologically to one exposed to milieu control; the
most basic is the disruption of the balance between self and outside world.
Pressured toward a merger of internal and external milieux, the individual
encounters a profound threat to his personal autonomy. He is deprived of
the combination of external information and internal reflection which
anyone requires to test the realities of his environment and to maintain a
measure of identity separate from it. Instead, he is called upon to make an
absolute polarization of the real (the prevailing ideology) and the unreal
(everything else). To the extent that he does this, he undergoes a personal
closure which frees him from man's incessant struggle with the elusive
subtleties of truth."
[Lifton, M.D., Robert J. Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism: A
Study of "Brainwashing" in China. Chapel Hill, NC: University of North
Carolina Press, 1989, p. 421.]
I think in small children (the walk is prescribed for K-2), reality testing
consists more in asking questions than in internal reflection. It is just
this denial that troubles me.
-Dan Dugan
P.S. Robert, was Ahriman characterized? What did he look like?
-dD-
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n966.5 ---------------
From: Robert Flannery (litvas icu.com)
Subject: Re: Publish Names and Addresses of PLANS Directors
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 21:41:56 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199811010333.TAA14820 lists1.best.com)
(199810312137.NAA03648 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199811020049.QAA25767 lists1.best.com)
)PLANS Supporting Advisors*
)
)Joseph E. Morrow, PhD (Department of Psychology, California State
)University, Sacramento)
)
)James Randi (James Randi Educational Foundation)
)
)Dr. Wallace Sampson, M.D. (Editor, The Scientific Review of Alternative
)Medicine)
)
)Dr. Eugenie Scott (National Center for Science Education)
)
)David R. Stronck (Department of Teacher Education, California State
)University, Hayward)
)
)*Organizations listed for identification only.
)
)-Dan Dugan
What characteristics or qualifications do the supporting advisors share?
What makes an individual a "supporting advisor" and not an "paid
consultant" or "PLANS member"?
Robert Flannery
New York
litvas icu.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n966.6 ---------------
From: spike (spike netshel.net)
Subject: Sleazy
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 19:00:45 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199811012019.MAA21875 lists1.best.com)
Tom Singer-Carp posted:
)
) )I am "intrigued" only by the fact that you and a couple of others seem
) )to be so hell-bent on painting a picture which is at such variance with
) )my own experience.(...
) ) I think I'm most outraged (as if you couldn't tell by all my posts
) )on the subject) by the attempt to paint Steiner, Anthroposophy and
) )Waldorf as sleazy by associating them with the rise of Nazism. Being a
) )member of the "race" which the Nazis sought to eradicate, I am sensitive
) )to anybody exploiting that historical episode in order to advance their
) )separate agenda. That's what I believe PLANS has done, and that brings
) )the sleaze-factor right back over to PLANS' doorstep.(
)
) I would like Kathy to answer to this and take into account the effect of
) the repeated claim of Naziism in Anthroposophy today on people
) sensitive to the subject. I have not yet heard from Michael Kopp either
) since I wrote to him:
I've responded to this issue repeatedly during past threads. Please
review the archives for an in-depth response. Briefly, I have never
contended that Steiner had a direct connection to the rise of Nazism.
Hitler and his thugs, with Germany following along, were the end result
of a number of historical patterns, IMHO. One of these patterns was to
believe certain groups of people were *better* than others. Steiner's
version of this is that various groups (races) of people are on
different steps (higher/lower) of an evolutionary (for lack of a better
word when I am short with time) ladder. My assertion is that these types
of beliefs, historically, have evolved into a variety of nasty versions
of racism that then play a part in horrific historical occurrences. It
is my desire that Anthroposophy (Dornach, et al) would *now* denounce
Steiner's "indications" on race in order to be part of a world that
consciously strives to eradicate the possibility for dangerous, racist
beliefs and occurrences to evolve again - and again - and again.
Kathy
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n966.7 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Publish Names -- correction
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 18:56:33 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sorry, I typed the wrong area code for Debra Snell, it's (530) 273-1005.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n966.8 ---------------
From: Robert Flannery (litvas icu.com)
Subject: Re: mileiu control
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 22:39:52 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199811020049.QAA25788 lists1.best.com)
)But, to me, there seems to be something strange about turning a
)contemporary American tradition, the haunted house walk-through, into a
)serious Waldorf pedagogical event. Parents are instructed to give up their
)guidance rights so that the children can be exposed to the programmed
)series of images without intellectual interference.
)
)Scholars of cult phenomena have a term for this. They call it "milieu
)control."
)
)"Many things happen psychologically to one exposed to milieu control; the
)most basic is the disruption of the balance between self and outside world.
)Pressured toward a merger of internal and external milieux, the individual
)encounters a profound threat to his personal autonomy. He is deprived of
)the combination of external information and internal reflection which
)anyone requires to test the realities of his environment and to maintain a
)measure of identity separate from it. Instead, he is called upon to make an
)absolute polarization of the real (the prevailing ideology) and the unreal
)(everything else). To the extent that he does this, he undergoes a personal
)closure which frees him from man's incessant struggle with the elusive
)subtleties of truth."
So, here's the "prevailing ideology" that I saw on last night's lantern
walk, in order of appearance.
1) Several Indians sitting around a campfire, playing recorders
2) Several gypsies dancing to the music of a fiddler, also around
a campfire
3) A number of figures standing in a stream. One was blowing
bubbles with a bubble wand, one was stirring the stream with a stick.
4) Two pirates digging with shovels in a wood, illuminated once
again by a campfire. A guitarist and a flutist were nearby.
5) Three "billy goats" crossing a "bridge" made of several benches
put end-to-end, with a "troll" underneath. They often clacked sticks as
they trotted.
6) Rapunzel and her suitor. She stood in a window of the student
housing building; he serenaded her from below.
7) A figure who looked like Little Red Riding Hood setting out a
picnic
8) Some figures scurrying about in the leaves. They clicked like
castanets. They also had a campfire.
9) Two scarecrows. It was fun to watch and try to figure out if
they were people or effigies.
10) A tableaux viewed through the windows of an old brick
farmhouse. Two girls attended to a bear, under the serene gaze of their
mother.
11) Through another window of the house, a man was seen sitting at
a desk by candlelight, writing furiously with a quill pen.
12) A group of dancers on the grass, moving in and out in a circle
to a flute or recorder
13) Some owls in a tree
14) Two men duelling with foils
15) Noblewomen with baskets of what I believe were cookies at the end.
I saw no blood, coffins, dismemberment, hangings, chainsaws or
Clinton/Lewinsky masks. I heard nothing except the music and song of
several of the performers (the goats and the owls also made sounds), and
the movement of the water in the stream. The children, who ranged in age
from infancy to about eight years, did not, in fact, seem to be struggling
with the elusive subleties of truth.
)I think in small children (the walk is prescribed for K-2), reality testing
)consists more in asking questions than in internal reflection. It is just
)this denial that troubles me.
)
)-Dan Dugan
I'd guess between 500-800 people went through the lantern walk last night.
I'd further estimate that roughly one-third of those people came from the
school community. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone, waldorf
parent or otherwise, who was troubled by what they experienced with their
children.
The event was wonderful in its simplicity. I was left with a real
appreciation for an event which allowed such space for interpretation.
Every single person who went through probably had a different experience.
If you're looking for "mileiu control", you're looking for a situation
where nothing is left to the imagination: examine any modern horror
film--this lantern walk was the antithesis of such a carefully scripted
experience.
Read it again:
)"Many things happen psychologically to one exposed to milieu control; the
)most basic is the disruption of the balance between self and outside world.
)Pressured toward a merger of internal and external milieux, the individual
)encounters a profound threat to his personal autonomy. He is deprived of
)the combination of external information and internal reflection which
)anyone requires to test the realities of his environment and to maintain a
)measure of identity separate from it. Instead, he is called upon to make an
)absolute polarization of the real (the prevailing ideology) and the unreal
)(everything else). To the extent that he does this, he undergoes a personal
)closure which frees him from man's incessant struggle with the elusive
)subtleties of truth."
I would suggest that this is the experience people are seeking when they
pay to see "Halloween" or "Friday the 13th". In fact, it might also
explain the popularity of the internet.
Robert Flannery
New York
litvas icu.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n966.9 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Publish Names and Addresses of PLANS Directors
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 19:48:59 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199811020049.QAA25767 lists1.best.com)
(199811010333.TAA14820 lists1.best.com)
(199810312137.NAA03648 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199811020241.SAA19271 lists1.best.com)
)What characteristics or qualifications do the supporting advisors share?
)What makes an individual a "supporting advisor" and not an "paid
)consultant" or "PLANS member"?
The Supporting Advisors are people who are experts in relevant fields,
interested in PLANS' work, and volunteer their names and free advice. Many
non-profits have a working board and an advisory board.
We are looking for experts in pedagogy and child development.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n966.10 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re:Archives
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 19:44:35 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199811020043.QAA23109 lists1.best.com)
Sean Murray, you wrote,
)I've just joined the list after finding the PLANS page. I have got major
)major family problems at the moment as a result of a Steiner connection. I
)am very interested in learning about other people's experiences,
)particularly any misappropriation of funds/property etc. information on how
)Waldorf property is owned, how it is funded ?
Anthroposophy is organized in the same way many other churches operate.
Local entities are separate non-profit corporations. In the case of the
schools, a national organization, to which the locals pay dues, sets
standards and licenses the trademarked name. That's AWSNA, the Association
of Waldorf Schools of North America
(http://www.steinercollege.org/waldorf/awsna.html). I don't know what
relationship AWSNA has with the Pedagogical Section of the General
Anthroposophical Society (http://www.goetheanum.ch/english.htm), Dornach,
Switzerland, which I believe would be the next step up the heirarchy. The
Anthroposophical Society is governed by a council called the Vorstand.
)Can you give me any directions, how do I search the archives ?
The archives are on the PLANS web site, at
http://www.waldorfcritics.org/archives/../archives.html.
-Dan Dugan
Secretary, PLANS
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n966 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n967 --------------
001 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Admin: October archive posted
002 - Robert Tolz (rtolz cosmow - Re: Sleazy
003 - Robert Tolz (rtolz cosmow - Race Independent of Physical Characteristics
004 - Robert Tolz (rtolz cosmow - Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n965
005 - Robert Tolz (rtolz cosmow - Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
006 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: mileiu control
007 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: Publish Names and Addresses of PLANS Directors
008 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Site Feedback, was (no subject)
009 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: Race Independent of Physical Characteristics
010 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - (no subject)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n967.1 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Admin: October archive posted
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 21:45:19 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The October mailing list archive has been posted on the PLANS web site.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n967.2 ---------------
From: Robert Tolz (rtolz cosmoweb.net)
Subject: Re: Sleazy
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 02:12:28 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199811020351.TAA01692 lists1.best.com)
Kathy wrote:
)
) Briefly, I have never
) contended that Steiner had a direct connection to the rise of Nazism.
I certainly respect your personal opinion. However, the official PLANS
website tries to make that connection, and I think that's entirely
inappropriate as an official position. How can you accept that as an
officer and director of the organization?
Bob
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n967.3 ---------------
From: Robert Tolz (rtolz cosmoweb.net)
Subject: Race Independent of Physical Characteristics
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 02:18:18 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199811020351.TAA01692 lists1.best.com)
Kathy wrote:
) of a number of historical patterns, IMHO. One of these patterns was to
) believe certain groups of people were *better* than others. Steiner's
) version of this is that various groups (races) of people are on
) different steps (higher/lower) of an evolutionary (for lack of a better
) word when I am short with time) ladder. My assertion is that these types
) of beliefs, historically, have evolved into a variety of nasty versions
) of racism that then play a part in horrific historical occurrences. It
) is my desire that Anthroposophy (Dornach, et al) would *now* denounce
) Steiner's "indications" on race in order to be part of a world that
) consciously strives to eradicate the possibility for dangerous, racist
) beliefs and occurrences to evolve again - and again - and again.
Just wondering what your thoughts are on the following quotation from
Steiner, which appears to indicate that his view of the evolution of
races is independent of the physical:
"It lies within the freedom of every single soul to develop itself
toward this external form of a race, whose character corresponds to the
good that it will incarnate. Individuals will belong to this race only
through the exercise of their free will and through a great exertion of
their soul forces. Membership in a race will no longer be forced upon a
soul, but rather it will be the result of an individual's evolution."
Bob
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n967.4 ---------------
From: Robert Tolz (rtolz cosmoweb.net)
Subject: Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n965
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 07:02:33 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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References: (199811012019.MAA21875 lists1.best.com)
Kathy wrote:
) you might enjoy it. (We 'Critics', *all* of us here, may take some
) pleasure from Browning's artful insight.)
)
) " . . . Take plain prose -
) Dealers in common sense, set these at work,
) What can they do without their helpful lies?
) Each states the law and fact and face o'the thing
) Just as he'd have them, finds what he thinks fit,
) Is blind to what missuits him, just records
) What makes his case out, quite ignores the rest.
Thanks, Kathy. It's perfectly suited for cogitation here.
Bob
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n967.5 ---------------
From: Robert Tolz (rtolz cosmoweb.net)
Subject: Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 07:30:48 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199811012019.MAA21875 lists1.best.com)
Herman de Tollenaere wrote:
)
) At the moment, I will just say some too concise and too hurried things.
Herman,
I have to apologize for not being more precise in my questions, for
your hurried response does not address the specific questions that I
thought (in my mind) I was asking. By limiting my questions, I hope to
save you a lot of time and effort so that you can reveal your knowledge
of specific facts rather than providing us with a thesis. So, here are
the questions again, stated more specifically. I am sorry that my
imprecision has resulted in none of what you wrote before applying to
the questions, as restated here:
Q1: At any time prior to the end of World War II, did any Nazi
thinker or party member (other than the obscure Gravell mentioned in the
Goodrick-Clarke book) write anything which cited Steiner, anthroposophy
or Waldorf in any significant way as support for the Nazi supremacy
theories?
Q2: At any time prior to the end of World War II, did any Nazi
thinker or party member write anything which criticized Steiner,
anthroposophy or Waldorf in any significant way?
Q3: During the period from the time the Nazis came to power
until the end of WWII, what actions, if any, did the Nazis take with
respect to Steiner, anthroposophy and the Waldorf schools?
Q4: Please evaluate the following statement: "Assuming for the sake
of argument that Steiner had anti-Semitic tendencies, neither he nor
anthroposophy nor Waldorf education was the cause of anti-Semitism or
the rise of the Nazis and Hitler." ___ True ___ False
I appreciate the time constraints that you must face, as we all do, so
please don't think that I'm expecting anything more than a concise
response. As a lawyer usually tells his client when facing questioning
on the witness stand, tell the truth, just answer the question which was
asked (with a simple yes or no if possible), and don't volunteer
information that doesn't directly address the question. :-)
Bob
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n967.6 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: mileiu control
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:02:34 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
In-Reply-To: (199811020049.QAA25788 lists1.best.com)
On 1 Nov 98, at 16:42, Dan Dugan wrote:
) Our correspondent Robert Flannery has put me on the mailing list for the
) newsletter of the Green Meadow Waldorf School . . .
)
) The current issue describes their Halloween event, The Lantern Walk, "a
) candlelit world alive with characters from folk stories and fairy tales,
) as well as characters who usually dwell in the realm of the unseen--the
) nature folk...The students of Sunbridge College and the School of Eurythmy
) will make the characters come to life."
)
) "Parents can also help to create a 'magical' atmosphere by not encouraging
) conversation along the path and by not interacting with the characters.
) This will allow your young child's imagination to participate in this
) world, and encourages an experience deeper than what any explanation can
) offer. Please, no pictures!"
)
) But, to me, there seems to be something strange about
) turning a contemporary American tradition, the haunted house walk-through,
) into a serious Waldorf pedagogical event.
The first walk-through haunted house that I heard of was around
1970. Fun, but nothing like the event at Robert's school, which
seems more like a fantasy theater production to me.
) Parents are instructed to give
) up their guidance rights so that the children can be exposed to the
) programmed series of images without intellectual interference.
)
) Scholars of cult phenomena have a term for this. They call it "milieu
) control."
Wow. So it is a cult mind control device to ask people not to talk
during the performance, especially to the performers, and to keep
quiet while walking between scenes to maintain a magical mood.
Doesn't this strike you as a bit of a stretch?
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum."
(A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.)
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n967.7 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Publish Names and Addresses of PLANS Directors
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:29:52 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: (199811010333.TAA14820 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199811020049.QAA25767 lists1.best.com)
On 1 Nov 98, at 12:57, Dan Dugan wrote:
) Robert Tolz, you wrote,
)
) )I would very much appreciate if you would make public the names and
) )addresses of the trustees or directors of PLANS so that I can
) )communicate with them.
) Most of the board of PLANS, a California non-profit charitable
) corporation, are on this mailing list, so you're communicating with us
) now. Debra Snell and I (Dan Dugan) volunteer to publish our addresses and
) take care of public communications (praise, hate mail, threats of
) lawsuits, etc.)
As for the ones who don't volunteer their addresses, it's a matter of
public record. You can get the information from the Secretary of
State for $1 for the first page, and $.50 for each additional page.
You probably want a document called "Statement of Officers" or
"Statement by Domestic Stock Corporation," although I'm not sure
of the extent to which these documents apply to non-profits like
PLANS. Try poking around:
http://www.ss.ca.gov/business/corp/corporate.htm
or
http://www.ss.ca.gov/business/corp/corp_formsfees.htm
First thing I'd do is call the California Secretary of State's office in
Sacramento. You can get the contact information at:
http://www.ss.ca.gov/business/corp/corp_contacts.htm
Hope this helps.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum."
(A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.)
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n967.8 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Site Feedback, was (no subject)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:59:00 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
)Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 10:05:40 +1300
)From: erin ketel (erketel ihug.co.nz)
)MIME-Version: 1.0
)To: snell netshel.net
)Subject: (no subject)
)X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
)Status:
)
)Dear Debra
)
)Having just looked at your site I find it basde on emotionalistic
)misinformation!
)Get over it.
)
)Yours Erin
)
[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
"I loathe people who keep dogs. They are cowards who haven't got the
guts to bite people themselves." -- August Strindberg
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n967.9 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Race Independent of Physical Characteristics
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:57:09 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
In-Reply-To: (199811020719.XAA15282 lists1.best.com)
On 2 Nov 98, at 2:18, Robert Tolz wrote:
) Just wondering what your thoughts are on the following quotation from
) Steiner, which appears to indicate that his view of the evolution of races
) is independent of the physical:
)
) "It lies within the freedom of every single soul to develop itself
) toward this external form of a race, whose character corresponds to the
) good that it will incarnate. Individuals will belong to this race only
) through the exercise of their free will and through a great exertion of
) their soul forces. Membership in a race will no longer be forced upon a
) soul, but rather it will be the result of an individual's evolution."
That sounds to me like he's talking about some future race of
evolved beings. Maybe the idea is that through the study and
practice of anthroposophy, people will evolve into a higher level, and
this new race will bring on a new era. Or something like that. It's
hard to tell without any context.
It doesn't sound to me like the quote has much relevance to the
question of Steiner's view on the origins, roles, and characteristics
of the races which exist today.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum."
(A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.)
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n967.10 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: (no subject)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:30:20 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
)Dear Debra
)
))From what I read on your site you consider Anthroposophy to be a
)religious sect. This however is not the case. From my readings of Rudolf
)Steiner he was quite clear that Anthroposophy is not a religion (Man and
)the world of stars). However the waldorf curriculum has a religious
)note in it. This means it awakens a sense of wonder at the spiritual at
)work in the world. This does not make it a church at all! Religion is
)not church. We need to be very clear on the distinction.
)I have done a great deal of reading of Rudolf Steiner and have four
)children in a Waldorf school. My experience of these schools around the
)world (personal experience in three continents) is that the curriculim
)is only of the picture. The teacher is the other half. I have also
)experienced that parents at the schools cannot give thorough insights
)into why the school functions as it does but then again most of the
)parents are not student of Rudolf Steiner and the school does not put
)pressure on them to become his disciples. This fact showa me that the
)schools are not sectarian. They also do not have a religious/ church
)agenda as the children are introduced into many world philosophies. I
)feel that you have not found the right people to talk to about some
)misunderstandings about your personal journey within a school. #This
)does not make the whole system bad
)
)Erin
)
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n967 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n968 --------------
001 - ckzfrey (ckzfrey ix.netco - Lantern Walk
002 - Robert Tolz (rtolz cosmow - Re: Race Independent of Physical Characteristics
003 - Kevin Houston (khouston o - AS a cult? Not according to Janet Reno.
004 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: AS a cult? Not according to Janet Reno.
005 - Kevin Houston (khouston o - Re: AS a cult? Not according to Janet Reno.
006 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - Re: AS a cult? Not according to Janet Reno.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n968.1 ---------------
From: ckzfrey (ckzfrey ix.netcom.com)
Subject: Lantern Walk
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 98 22:25:49 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Dugan wrote:
)
Sunbridge College,the main east-coast Waldorf teacher
)seminary, obviously has it together.
Seminary!? Even funnier--me, a seminarian on a Harley! Grow up, Dugan.
And I think that if you could have seen the smiles on the faces of the
little ones as they saw the 'real' Rapunzel and and Rose Red without the
talking and coaching of a bunch of insensitive adults, a little tear may
have even come to your jaundiced eye.
) was Ahriman characterized? What did he look like?
As a matter of fact, there was a lantern walk post-party just for the
parents where Ahriman was characterized---he looked like you....wise-guy.
Hugs & kisses
Charlie
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n968.2 ---------------
From: Robert Tolz (rtolz cosmoweb.net)
Subject: Re: Race Independent of Physical Characteristics
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 22:41:19 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199811030129.RAA17420 lists1.best.com)
Steve Premo wrote:
) That sounds to me like he's talking about some future race of
) evolved beings. Maybe the idea is that through the study and
) practice of anthroposophy, people will evolve into a higher level, and
) this new race will bring on a new era. Or something like that. It's
) hard to tell without any context.
)
) It doesn't sound to me like the quote has much relevance to the
) question of Steiner's view on the origins, roles, and characteristics
) of the races which exist today.
What the quotation says to me is that Steiner thought that there is a
line of evolution which is independent of the physical and depends more
on the inner aspects of the being. I could imagine these inner aspects
could include not only morality and ethics but also more subtle aspects
such as empathy, heightened awareness and self-transcendence. I'd be
surprised (and not a little bit disappointed) if Steiner believed that
anthroposophy was the only means to progress on that kind of path. In
any event, I think the quotation adds a strong contrast to the assertion
sometimes implied on this list that Steiner pushed the idea that racial
divisions along the lines of historical and physical characteristics
brand an individual and simultaneously limit that individual's
possibilities.
Bob
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n968.3 ---------------
From: Kevin Houston (khouston onel.com)
Subject: AS a cult? Not according to Janet Reno.
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 10:03:40 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199811030129.RAA17417 lists1.best.com)
Got this on another list, thought it might be of interest here.
According to the Attorney General of the U.S. I don't think AS
supporters could be classified as cultists.
)Subject: Cults
)
)"A cultist is one who has a strong belief in the Bible and the
)Second Coming of Christ; who frequently attends Bible studies; who has a
)high level of financial giving to a Christian cause; who home schools
)for their children; who has accumulated survival foods, and has a strong
)belief in the Second Amendment; and who distrusts big government.
)
)Any of these may qualify a person as a cultist but certainly more
)than one of these would cause us to look at this person as a threat, and
)his family as being in a risk situation that qualified for government
)interference."
)
) Janet Reno, Attorney General
) Interview on 60 Minutes, June 26, 1994
Facetiously yours,
Kevin Houston.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n968.4 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: AS a cult? Not according to Janet Reno.
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:53:44 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: (199811030129.RAA17417 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199811031601.IAA21948 lists1.best.com)
On 3 Nov 98, at 10:03, Kevin Houston wrote:
) According to the Attorney General of the U.S. I don't think AS
) supporters could be classified as cultists.
This quote from Janet Reno is a hoax. Reno was not interviewed
on 60 minutes on June 26, 1994, or at any other time in 1994, and
never made the statement attributed to her.
Liza Mundy of the The Washington Post wrote early in 1998:
) [I]t's probably also not surprising that [Reno] has attracted the
) ravings of a subterranean lunatic fringe. The fringe includes
) Internet fulminators upset by her Miami campaign against
) deadbeat dads or by Waco or simply by federal law
) enforcement in general. Among other things, the fulminators
) regularly fabricate bogus press releases (some of which have
) found their way into newspapers and provoked letters of
) inquiry from congressional offices) attempting to persuade the
) nation that Reno favors "parental licensing," or that she
) believes that "a cultist is one who has a strong belief in the
) Bible."
Either you've been duped, Kevin, or you're trying to dupe us, or you
figure that no one would fall for something so obviously phony. I
assume, from your signature line, that it's the latter.
(source: http://snopes.simplenet.com/spoons/noose/reno.htm)
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum."
(A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.)
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n968.5 ---------------
From: Kevin Houston (khouston onel.com)
Subject: Re: AS a cult? Not according to Janet Reno.
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 11:26:19 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199811031601.IAA21948 lists1.best.com)
(199811030129.RAA17417 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199811031655.IAA19302 lists1.best.com)
At 09:53 AM 11/3/98 , Steve wrote:
)On 3 Nov 98, at 10:03, Kevin Houston wrote:
)
)) According to the Attorney General of the U.S. I don't think AS
)) supporters could be classified as cultists.
)
)This quote from Janet Reno is a hoax. Reno was not interviewed
)on 60 minutes on June 26, 1994, or at any other time in 1994, and
)never made the statement attributed to her.
)
)Liza Mundy of the The Washington Post wrote early in 1998:
)
)) [I]t's probably also not surprising that [Reno] has attracted the
)) ravings of a subterranean lunatic fringe. The fringe includes
)) Internet fulminators upset by her Miami campaign against
)) deadbeat dads or by Waco or simply by federal law
)) enforcement in general. Among other things, the fulminators
)) regularly fabricate bogus press releases (some of which have
)) found their way into newspapers and provoked letters of
)) inquiry from congressional offices) attempting to persuade the
)) nation that Reno favors "parental licensing," or that she
)) believes that "a cultist is one who has a strong belief in the
)) Bible."
)
)Either you've been duped, Kevin, or you're trying to dupe us, or you
)figure that no one would fall for something so obviously phony. I
)assume, from your signature line, that it's the latter.
)
Okay, two points,
One, I was duped. when I sent this out, I thought it was a true quote.
Shame on me for not checking my source. I would not intentionally try to
dupe this list.
Two even though it is not true, I think it says a lot about what is
considered a 'cult'. A 'cult' is a religious organization that has made an
enemy of the government, or other mainstream outlet of public opinion.
'Cult' is a political term that is used to demonize some group. Every
mainstream religion was a 'cult' at some time or another.
The facetiously part was so that no one would assume that *I* was endorsing
this definition.
Thank you very much for correcting me and point me to the proper information.
Kevin Houston (wiping the egg off my face)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n968.6 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: Re: AS a cult? Not according to Janet Reno.
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 12:50:07 +1300
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199811031601.IAA21948 lists1.best.com)
(199811030129.RAA17417 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199811031655.IAA19302 lists1.best.com)
This is getting off-topic, and I won't encourage further on-list
discussion, but there is one more thing to say.
Steve Premo corrected Kevin Houston:
)On 3 Nov 98, at 10:03, Kevin Houston wrote:
)
)) According to the Attorney General of the U.S. I don't think AS
)) supporters could be classified as cultists.
)
PREMO:
)This quote from Janet Reno is a hoax. Reno was not interviewed
)on 60 minutes on June 26, 1994, or at any other time in 1994, and
)never made the statement attributed to her.
)
)Liza Mundy of the The Washington Post wrote early in 1998:
)
)) [I]t's probably also not surprising that [Reno] has attracted the
)) ravings of a subterranean lunatic fringe. [snip rest of Post article]
)
PREMO:
)Either you've been duped, Kevin, or you're trying to dupe us, or you
)figure that no one would fall for something so obviously phony. I
)assume, from your signature line, that it's the latter.
)
)(source: http://snopes.simplenet.com/spoons/noose/reno.htm)
Michael KOPP says:
But is it so far fetched, Steve? (And no thanks to the Washington Post for
labelling any dissent as "subterranean lunatic fringe".)
And, Steve, with public officials everywhere flapping their loose tongues
in ever more outrageous statements of ill-informed, blatantly reactionary,
red-necked and prejudicial nature, who's to say what's "so obviously phony".
Would it be so easy to tell if a quote from a high official calling for
limiting freedoms was bogus? Try this one ...
Below is another recent quote from a U.S. Cabinet Officer, Defense
Secretary William Cohen, who seems to be redefining freedom in an Orwellian
way. It appeared in print in Army Times in a direct interview, according to
Wired Magazine. Pretty authoritative source, uncontradicted so far. Not
even an "out of context" complaint.
I have tried to check the Army Times Web site for the full context, but
they want a subscription fee that I'm not willing to pay for their
propaganda.
I suggest Americans have reason to be afraid these days -- not of an
external "enemy" (whoever that may be these days) or lunatic fringe within,
but of excessive government itself. I'm not a radical of either fringe, and
I believe in the American system (I am a native son, after all). But
democracy requires vigilance against those who control its machinery; men
are fallible. We need to be certain the protectors of democracy do not
become the things they wish to protect democracy from.
Here's the quote from Wired, via a mailing list called Politics and
Technology, run by a Time Magazine writer, Declan McCullagh:
X-Sender: declan mail.well.com
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 12:47:47 -0500
To: politech vorlon.mit.edu
From: Declan McCullagh (declan well.com)
Subject: FC: Terrorism as excuse for eradicating liberty
Mime-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-politech vorlon.mit.edu
Reply-To: declan well.com
X-Loop: politech vorlon.mit.edu
X-URL: Politech is at http://www.well.com/~declan/politech/
Not exactly encouraging news...
http://www.wired.com/news/news/email/member/story/15939.html
Armored vehicles patrolling Fifth Avenue? Heavily armed
Marines going house to house along Rodeo Drive? It may sound
like the plot of a bad movie (and it is), but the idea is a
bit more sobering when it comes from the Secretary of
Defense. In an interview with the Army Times, William Cohen
said that the threat of terrorism makes the scenario at
least plausible: "Terrorism is escalating to the point that
Americans soon may have to choose between civil liberties
and more intrusive means of protection."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
POLITECH -- the moderated mailing list of politics and technology
To subscribe: send a message to majordomo vorlon.mit.edu with this text:
subscribe politech
More information is at http://www.well.com/~declan/politech/
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--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n968 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n969 --------------
001 - spike (spike netshel.net) - Race Independent of Physical Characteristics
002 - spike (spike netshel.net) - Steiner - Nazism - PLANS
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n969.1 ---------------
From: spike (spike netshel.net)
Subject: Race Independent of Physical Characteristics
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 21:56:48 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199811030129.RAA17420 lists1.best.com)
Robert Tolz posted:
) Just wondering what your thoughts are on the following quotation from
) Steiner, which appears to indicate that his view of the evolution of
) races is independent of the physical:
)
) "It lies within the freedom of every single soul to develop itself
) toward this external form of a race, whose character corresponds to the
) good that it will incarnate. Individuals will belong to this race only
) through the exercise of their free will and through a great exertion of
) their soul forces. Membership in a race will no longer be forced upon a
) soul, but rather it will be the result of an individual's evolution."
I think you're grasping at straws. Steiner seems to be speaking here of
some *future* scenario. Steiner does, *indicates* in the last line
above that race *will* (future tense) be the result of an individual's
evolution. In other quotes he indicates that the Aryan race (or root
race . . . subrace (geez!) - whatever) is the current highest state of
evolution and he ranks races according to their evolutionary status. I
don't see that he is doing much different here in this out-of-context
quote.
Kathy
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n969.2 ---------------
From: spike (spike netshel.net)
Subject: Steiner - Nazism - PLANS
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 19:42:36 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199811030129.RAA17420 lists1.best.com)
Robert Tolz posted:
) Kathy wrote:
) )
) ) Briefly, I have never
) ) contended that Steiner had a direct connection to the rise of Nazism.
Robert replied (quizzically):
) I certainly respect your personal opinion. However, the official PLANS
) website tries to make that connection, and I think that's entirely
) inappropriate as an official position. How can you accept that as an
) officer and director of the organization?
What you see first on the PLANS website, following the "Table of
Contents", is a statement entitled "Our Concerns About Waldorf Schools".
This statement does not not assert a position, on the part of PLANS,
that Steiner/Anthroposophy/Waldorf has or had a connection to Nazism.
While this is not a "Mission Statement", per se, it does encompass the
focus/concern of the organization.
Following this section is one that includes links to a number of
articles, letters, class lists written by various authors and/or
organizations, including Dan Dugan. These articles were not written by
PLANS, nor by Dan Dugan in his official role as secretary of PLANS.
While individual PLANS' members may agree with some or all of what is
alleged in these documents, they are not official statements of PLANS.
They are merely links to documents related to the PLANS effort and each
addresses concerns of various members, supporters, advisers of PLANS,
and possibly members of the cyberworld that visit this site or involved
with Waldorf pedagogy.
One of these days I hope to have an article posted to this site, but I
never seem to find the time to put it together. When/if I do, I would
suppose that some of my concerns will not carry weight or have merit for
each and every member of PLANS.
Hope this answers the question . . .
Kathy
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n969 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n970 --------------
001 - Robert Tolz (rtolz cosmow - Re: Race Independent of Physical Characteristics
002 - Robert Tolz (rtolz cosmow - Re: Steiner - Nazism - PLANS
003 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: AS a cult? Not according to Janet Reno.
004 - spike (spike netshel.net) - Steiner - Nazism - PLANS
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n970.1 ---------------
From: Robert Tolz (rtolz cosmoweb.net)
Subject: Re: Race Independent of Physical Characteristics
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 04:21:28 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199811050610.WAA26261 lists1.best.com)
Kathy wrote:
) References: (199811030129.RAA17420 lists1.best.com)
)
) Robert Tolz posted:
)
) ) Just wondering what your thoughts are on the following quotation from
) ) Steiner, which appears to indicate that his view of the evolution of
) ) races is independent of the physical:
) )
) ) "It lies within the freedom of every single soul to develop itself
) ) toward this external form of a race, whose character corresponds to the
) ) good that it will incarnate. Individuals will belong to this race only
) ) through the exercise of their free will and through a great exertion of
) ) their soul forces. Membership in a race will no longer be forced upon a
) ) soul, but rather it will be the result of an individual's evolution."
)
) I think you're grasping at straws. Steiner seems to be speaking here of
) some *future* scenario. Steiner does, *indicates* in the last line
) above that race *will* (future tense) be the result of an individual's
) evolution. In other quotes he indicates that the Aryan race (or root
) race . . . subrace (geez!) - whatever) is the current highest state of
) evolution and he ranks races according to their evolutionary status. I
) don't see that he is doing much different here in this out-of-context
) quote.
I can't agree with your reading, Kathy. Steiner says it *lies*
(present tense) within the freedom of each soul to do this. He says you
can do it now. I can do it now. If and when we take exercise that
responsibility we *will* (future tense)develop ourselves into that race
which is free from physical characteristics.
This is something which is done by individuals through their will and
effort, not through the march of time (or the march of armies, for that
matter).
Bob
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n970.2 ---------------
From: Robert Tolz (rtolz cosmoweb.net)
Subject: Re: Steiner - Nazism - PLANS
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 04:29:22 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199811050610.WAA26261 lists1.best.com)
Kathy wrote:
)
) What you see first on the PLANS website, following the "Table of
) Contents", is a statement entitled "Our Concerns About Waldorf Schools".
) This statement does not not assert a position, on the part of PLANS,
) that Steiner/Anthroposophy/Waldorf has or had a connection to Nazism.
) While this is not a "Mission Statement", per se, it does encompass the
) focus/concern of the organization.
)
) Following this section is one that includes links to a number of
) articles, letters, class lists written by various authors and/or
) organizations, including Dan Dugan. These articles were not written by
) PLANS, nor by Dan Dugan in his official role as secretary of PLANS.
) While individual PLANS' members may agree with some or all of what is
) alleged in these documents, they are not official statements of PLANS.
) They are merely links to documents related to the PLANS effort and each
) addresses concerns of various members, supporters, advisers of PLANS,
) and possibly members of the cyberworld that visit this site or involved
) with Waldorf pedagogy.
I think I see the logic you're setting forth, though I'm pretty sure
that few visitors to the PLANS website split the same hair that you
have. When someone reads an article on your website authored by an
officer of the organization, with no disclaimer as to the PLANS
position, it's a pretty safe bet that the visitor takes this as an
endorsement of the content.
Based on your logic, Herman de Tollenaere would not justified in
complaining about any anthroposophical organizations or magazines (or
whatever) providing a forum for a neo-Nazi to spread hatred. Do I have
that correct?
Bob
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n970.3 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: AS a cult? Not according to Janet Reno.
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 11:50:20 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199811031601.IAA21948 lists1.best.com)
(199811030129.RAA17417 lists1.best.com) (199811032353.PAA19665 lists1.best.com)
Michael Kopp wrote:
) Would it be so easy to tell if a quote from a high official calling for
) limiting freedoms was bogus? Try this one ...
[snip]
) http://www.wired.com/news/news/email/member/story/15939.html
)
) Armored vehicles patrolling Fifth Avenue? Heavily armed
) Marines going house to house along Rodeo Drive? It may sound
) like the plot of a bad movie (and it is), but the idea is a
) bit more sobering when it comes from the Secretary of
) Defense. In an interview with the Army Times, William Cohen
) said that the threat of terrorism makes the scenario at
) least plausible: "Terrorism is escalating to the point that
) Americans soon may have to choose between civil liberties
) and more intrusive means of protection."
On September 14, 1998, William S. Cohen spoke at the Council on Foreign
Relations on "Security in a Grave New World", discussing USA:s role as
"world leader" and "world police" and the increasing conflict between
fighting terrorism and upholding civil liberties, globally and
nationally.
The speech and discussion can be found at CFR:s site at
http://www.foreignrelations.org/studies/transcripts/cohen.html.
A central linkpage on the Big Brother that is finally landing in the
form of Project Echelon is http://www.qainfo.se/~lb/echelon.htm.
Regards,
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n970.4 ---------------
From: spike (spike netshel.net)
Subject: Steiner - Nazism - PLANS
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 07:21:03 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199811050610.WAA26261 lists1.best.com)
A thread:
) ) Kathy wrote:
) ) )
) ) ) Briefly, I have never
) ) ) contended that Steiner had a direct connection to the rise of Nazism.
)
) Robert replied (quizzically):
) ) I certainly respect your personal opinion. However, the official PLANS
) ) website tries to make that connection, and I think that's entirely
) ) inappropriate as an official position. How can you accept that as an
) ) officer and director of the organization?
Kathy answered (to the best of her ability)
) What you see first on the PLANS website, following the "Table of
) Contents", is a statement entitled "Our Concerns About Waldorf Schools".
) This statement does not not assert a position, on the part of PLANS,
) that Steiner/Anthroposophy/Waldorf has or had a connection to Nazism.
) While this is not a "Mission Statement", per se, it does encompass the
) focus/concern of the organization.
)
) Following this section is one that includes links to a number of
) articles, letters, class lists written by various authors and/or
) organizations, including Dan Dugan. These articles were not written by
) PLANS, nor by Dan Dugan in his official role as secretary of PLANS.
) While individual PLANS' members may agree with some or all of what is
) alleged in these documents, they are not official statements of PLANS.
) They are merely links to documents related to the PLANS effort and each
) addresses concerns of various members, supporters, advisers of PLANS,
) and possibly members of the cyberworld that visit this site or involved
) with Waldorf pedagogy.
)
) One of these days I hope to have an article posted to this site, but I
) never seem to find the time to put it together. When/if I do, I would
) suppose that some of my concerns will not carry weight or have merit for
) each and every member of PLANS.
)
) Hope this answers the question . . .
) Kathy
)
I would like to offer an addendum to this post. While I have not been
convinced of a direct link between Steiner and Nazism I do respect the
work and opinions of Dan Dugan and Herman de Tollenaere. They have
studied this issue in depth and seem to believe there is a connection.
The connection that I perceive, at present, is the historical evolution
of *dangerous thinking*. By this I mean the assignment of a different
evolutionary or spiritual ranking to various races/cultures based on
their skin color/continent of origin/religious affiliation, etc. Steiner
did this - Hitler did this. Steiner asserted these types of beliefs, but
did not advocate racial cleansing, nor do I believe that he would have
supported it had the issue arose during his lifetime. He saw personal
evolution as the *solution* to racial ranking. However, he claimed his
beliefs on this issue were "received knowledge".
This type of thinking has existed over millenia in one form or another.
The occultist movement of the late 19th, early 20th century strove to
create a history that encompassed these types of beliefs. Simply put, I
believe Steiner was a man of his time. However, I find it alarming that
hardline Anthroposophists actually believe his "indications" to be the
result of "received knowledge".
This means these beliefs are *true*. Anthroposophists today, including
many Waldorf educators, buy this stuff hook, line, and sinker. Rudolf
Steiner College bookstore sells books to its students that include these
"indications" by Steiner. When public school educators are on their
campus the bookstore is open and this stuff sits on their shelves
waiting to be purchased by public school employees. (I know, it's a free
society, but come on! These teachers are *on* campus as a result of the
expenditure of educational tax revenue.)
When I have confronted Waldorf/Anthroposophist members/supporters with
these "indications" (and other pseudoscientific beliefs) I have
repeatedly been met with a response that goes something like, "these are
difficult to understand" . . . or "you must read Steiner over and over
again to truly grasp his meaning.
A pedagogy that embraces a world history based on this type of belief
system does *not* belong in the public school system. In addition,
parents that approach a private Waldorf School should be offered full
disclosure regarding these beliefs and other unusual concepts
(psuedoscientific beliefs), so that they can make an "informed choice"
when considering Waldorf for their children.
Thoughtfully yours,
Kathy
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n970 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n971 --------------
001 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
002 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Your survey
003 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Eurythmy
004 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Racism
005 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Sleazy
006 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
007 - SINGERCARP aol.com - WS entering physical adolencence later at WS
008 - Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis - Re: Racism
009 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - CONGRATULATIONS! (Majon's Most Prestigious Award)
010 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: CONGRATULATIONS! (Majon's Most Prestigious Award)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n971.1 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 02:03:47 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199811012019.MAA21875 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199811012111.NAA17865 lists1.best.com)
Robert Tolz, you wrote,
) I think the jackpot question is the last one I asked, which really
)deals with whether it is logical to tie someone or something to the
)Nazis on the sole basis that the Nazis found some support or solace
)there. If Adolf Hitler liked green shirts, that shouldn't make feel a
)loathing towards green shirts.
You're pretending it's a trivial issue. Steiner, in his public and private
lectures, espoused a pseudo-historical racial mythology that supported the
prejudices then current in Germany. He must bear some responsibility for
the consequences of those teachings.
The continuing refusal of Anthroposophy today to repudiate those teachings
continues to discredit the organization.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n971.2 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Your survey
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 01:08:03 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199810171856.LAA07258 lists1.best.com)
Tom Singer-Carpenter, you asked,
)P.S. Mr. Dugan, could you please define "critical thinking" (vs.abstract
)thinking etc.) and which "critical period" in early childhood you are
)thinking of when critical thinking must be learned?
What is the opposite of "magical thinking?" Certainly the polarity between
holistic and reductionist thinking is central. Critical thinking is
analytical, taking things apart into elements and understanding the
contribution of each. It also means trying to evaluate the source of
information before accepting it.
Any other opinions on what critical thinking is? It's used by the education
establishment, maybe one of the teachers here can give us an official
definition.
My notion of there being a critical period in childhood for learning
critial thinking is just that, a notion. I do quite a bit of mentoring and
teaching, and I've been frustrated by encounters with people who seem to be
unable to think analytically at all, and don't seem to be able to learn. My
suspicion is that something happens rather early in development, like age 4
or 5, that determines this outcome. But that's just my suspicion.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n971.3 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Eurythmy
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 01:49:56 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In-Reply-To: (199810312029.MAA29914 lists1.best.com)
Charley Frey, you quoted me (Dan Dugan),
))I can't believe any responsible physician would recommend "therapeutic
))eurythmy." You can study nonsense for seven years and it'll still be
))nonsense. The therepeutic/remedial techniques used in Waldorf schools are
))outrageously ill-informed and based on Anthroposophical "white magic."
And replied,
) Why don't you extend you research into curative eurythmy?
)This certainly is concurrent with your ravenous appetite for things
)Anthroposophical.
I'm interested, can you guide me to the best publications?
)I'd be interested in what effect some curative/therapeutic/hygienic would
)have on you.
Don't hold your breath.
) Also, as I understand it, in Holland (a veritable hotbed of
)Anthroposophy!) one is as likely as not to be prescribed curative
)eurythmy for certain ailments--even by mainstream MD's.
)And many, if not most, hospitals have a curative eurythmist.
Many American hospitals make referrals to pseudoscientific practitioners,
too. This doesn't make what they do any more real. For example Therapeutic
Touch is taught with all seriousness for college credit in nursing schools.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n971.4 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Racism
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 01:24:52 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199810051639.JAA01980 lists1.best.com)
(199810101825.LAA29993 lists1.best.com)
(199810260903.BAA21059 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199810261515.HAA24040 lists1.best.com)
I (Dan Dugan) wrote,
)) Anthroposophy doesn't intend to be evil. It does evil by perpetuating
)) racist ignorance. Other churches have repudiated their racist doctrines
)) from the past. Anthroposophy can, too.
and Ezra Beeman replied,
)Cheap shot, Anthroposophy is not a church, by any stretch of the definition.
)Your uncanny ability to master the powers of implication and allegation in
)your rhetoric is reminiscient of a few great political men. Not men of
)enormous political power, like Huey Long, or Richard Nixon though these
)men too excelled in political
)rhetoric. No, I refer to the titans of political speech, so called spin
)masters, these are men of Goebble's stature. And we all know what
)happened next.
Methinks you do protest too much, Ezra. Others see Anthroposophy as religious:
"A 20th century religious system growing out of theosophy and centering on
man rather than God."
[Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary (WestEd, 1996, p. 75)]
"The Christian and occultist movement associated with Rudolf Steiner
(1861-1925) stressing the cultivation of spiritual nature and the way to
gain spiritual awareness of a higher world."
[Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy (1994, p.19)]
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n971.5 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Sleazy
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 01:42:28 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199810291810.KAA10289 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199810291912.LAA24104 lists1.best.com)
Robert Tolz, you wrote,
) ) No, I think I'm most outraged (as if you couldn't tell by all my posts on
) ) the subject) by the attempt to paint Steiner, anthroposophy and Waldorf as
) ) sleazy by associating them with the rise of Nazism. Being a member of the
) ) "race" which the Nazis sought to eradicate, I am sensitive to anybody
) ) exploiting that historical episode in order to advance their separate
) ) agenda. That's what I believe PLANS has done, and that brings the
) ) sleaze-factor right back over to PLANS' doorstep.
and also,
) I believe Dan once mentioned that PLANS has independent board members,
)some of whom are religiously oriented. In a commercial corporation, it
)is the board members who are ultimately responsible for appointing and
)directing the officers. I don't know anything about PLANS' governing
)legal documents, so I have no idea whether the position of director is
)for real or merely titular. Either way, I have to believe that any
)independent director associated with PLANS would be very uncomfortable
)with what we've been talking about. I wonder if they're even aware of
)it.
)
) Is it possible, I wonder, for President Debra Snell and Secretary Dan
)Dugan to admit some level of error in this regard and pull the
)organization back from the nuttiness?
Rudolf Steiner lectured to the construction workers building the Goetheanum
on December 13, 1922, that "If the blonds and blue-eyed people die out, the
human race will become increasingly dense if men do not arrive at a form of
intelligence that is independent of blondness. Blond hair actually bestows
intelligence."
I bought the book containing that lecture on November 3, 1987, at the San
Francisco Waldorf School. When will Anthroposophy admit some level of error
in this regard and pull the organization back from the nuttiness?
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n971.6 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:19:51 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199811012111.NAA17865 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199811061024.CAA22742 lists1.best.com)
On 6 Nov 98, at 2:03, Dan Dugan wrote:
) Robert Tolz, you wrote,
)
) ) I think the jackpot question is the last one I asked, which really
) )deals with whether it is logical to tie someone or something to the
) )Nazis on the sole basis that the Nazis found some support or solace
) )there. If Adolf Hitler liked green shirts, that shouldn't make feel a
) )loathing towards green shirts.
)
) You're pretending it's a trivial issue. Steiner, in his public and private
) lectures, espoused a pseudo-historical racial mythology that supported the
) prejudices then current in Germany. He must bear some responsibility for
) the consequences of those teachings.
The question, basically, is whether Steiner's teachings led to the
holocaust. If not for Steiner, would millions of Jews have been
killed by the Nazis?
The answer is yes, as far as we know, Steiner's writings did not
cause the Nazis to slaughter Jews.
On the other hand, you might say, for example, that all socialists
bear some responsibility for the excesses of Stalin and Mao. But
it's a stretch, and it would hurt your credibility.
) The continuing refusal of Anthroposophy today to repudiate those teachings
) continues to discredit the organization.
Of course. I don't think Bob is disputing that. He's pointing out
that the continuing attempts of PLANS to link Steiner to Hitler
discredits your organization. I agree with him.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum."
(A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.)
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n971.7 ---------------
From: SINGERCARP aol.com
Subject: WS entering physical adolencence later at WS
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 16:39:39 EST
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Steve Premo Santa Cruz, California, asked me to publish material of a survey:
"...according to a survey of the
German Bund der Freien Waldorfschulen Waldorf students - boys and girls
-enter physical adolescence approximately 12 months later than students of
state-run schools. (average) Conclusions may be drawn, but - )handle with
care!"
I have now found the scientist who carried out the survey at German Waldorf
Schools in cooperation with the Bavarian department of health in 1976. His
name is Dr. Matthiolius and he lived in Stuttgart, Germany.
It was published in that year in "an American scientific magazine" - this is
as far as I got - by a man called Prof. Schaefer.
In Germany it was published in ÑBeitr”ge zur Erweiterung der Heilkunst", an
Anthroposophical medical magazine.
The survey will be available within the next days. People who are interested
please write me directly.
Tom Singer-Carpenter
Switzerland/Germany
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n971.8 ---------------
From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Racism
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 18:08:51 +0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: (199811061024.CAA22935 lists1.best.com)
Dan,
Do you accept all dictionary definitions as being complete and accurate?
Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com) wrote:
)[Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary (WestEd, 1996, p. 75)]
)[Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy (1994, p.19)]
--
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+ Stephen Tonkin | ATM Resources; Astro-Tutorials; Astronomy Books +
+ (N50.9105 W1.829) | (http://www.aegis1.demon.co.uk) +
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n971.9 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: CONGRATULATIONS! (Majon's Most Prestigious Award)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 16:59:31 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
)From: award majon.com
)Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:21:21
)To: (snell netshel.net)
)Subject: CONGRATULATIONS! (Majon's Most Prestigious Award)
)Status:
)
)Hello:
)
) Recently we enjoyed a very pleasant visit to your web site! It is
)with great pride that we announce that your web site is a WINNER of our
)esteemed Majon Web Select "SEAL OF EXCELLENCE AWARD."
) (As mentioned in the Wall Street Journal.)
)
) The award icon can be downloaded at:
)
) http://www.majon.com/award.html
)
) Our award seal is trademarked and may be placed anywhere in your
) web site, provided you place a link from the icon to:
)
) http://www.majon.com
)
) Also, as a winnner, you have the opportunity to be "Triple Linked"
)into our "2" TOP high traffic online cybermalls - Majon's CyberMall and
)mrcybermall.com at a great value-added price of only $99.00 for a full year!
)(Normally, this marketing and listing service is over $595.00!)
)
) For more info, visit:
)
) http://www.majon.com/award.html
)
) Congratulations,
)
)
) The Web Select Team
)
)PS: Currently we are doing some major market television advertising! Also
)when you get triple linked your web site link goes in at the TOP of our lists!
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n971.10 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: CONGRATULATIONS! (Majon's Most Prestigious Award)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 17:28:05 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199811070100.RAA18115 lists1.best.com)
Sorry for the garbage on the list. I accidently forwarded it to the critics
list.
Deby
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n971 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n972 --------------
001 - Daniel Sabsay (DanielSabs - Dictionary definitions (who makes them up, anyhow?)
002 - spike (spike netshel.net) - Critical Thinking
003 - Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis - Re: Dictionary definitions (who makes them up, anyhow?)
004 - Robert Tolz (rtolz cosmow - Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n972.1 ---------------
From: Daniel Sabsay (DanielSabsay earthlink.net)
Subject: Dictionary definitions (who makes them up, anyhow?)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 98 18:37:10 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk) wrote )
)Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com) wrote:
))[Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary (WestEd, 1996, p. 75)]
)
))[Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy (1994, p.19)]
)Do you accept all dictionary definitions as being complete and accurate?
)
If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck .....
-- Daniel
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Daniel Sabsay, president East Bay Skeptics Society
Ignorance is the ultimate renewable resource http://www.eb-skeptics.org
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n972.2 ---------------
From: spike (spike netshel.net)
Subject: Critical Thinking
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 22:32:24 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199811070128.RAA09427 lists1.best.com)
Tom Singer-Carp asked:
) )P.S. Mr. Dugan, could you please define "critical thinking" (vs.abstract
) )thinking etc.) and which "critical period" in early childhood you are
) )thinking of when critical thinking must be learned?
)
) What is the opposite of "magical thinking?" Certainly the polarity between
) holistic and reductionist thinking is central. Critical thinking is
) analytical, taking things apart into elements and understanding the
) contribution of each. It also means trying to evaluate the source of
) information before accepting it.
I would add here that critical thinking involves analysis and
application. It embodies learning through observation, study, and taking
into account other's opinions regarding the basic facts of any given
item of study. The highest level of critical thinking is to combine what
you have learned and then use this knowledge to apply it to other
situations.
)My suspicion is that something happens rather early in development, like age 4
) or 5, that determines this outcome. But that's just my suspicion.
I think it can start at a very early age in a subtle manner. When a
child is very young the teaching comes from a parent/teacher simply
asking a child appropriate questions about what they are doing or
observing and then, when appropriate, asking them how they think
something else should be done and why. Children like this type of
interest and interaction. It becomes more formalized as a child grows
older. A good teacher will incorporate critical thinking activities in
her lessons at any age level, but these will become more formal from
about the 3rd grade forward. It is important that our children learn to
think analytically and be able to apply what they know to other events
in their lives. This does not take away from their childhood if handled
on the appropriate developmental level. It's just a process and another
way of being with a child on their own level.
A Teacher Speaks,
Kathy
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n972.3 ---------------
From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Dictionary definitions (who makes them up, anyhow?)
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 06:50:03 +0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: (199811070238.SAA06809 lists1.best.com)
Daniel Sabsay, president East Bay Skeptics Society
(DanielSabsay earthlink.net) wrote:
)Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk) wrote )
))Do you accept all dictionary definitions as being complete and accurate?
))
)If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck ...
Daniel,
Surely neither you nor the East Bay Skeptics Society (which, presumably,
abhors pseudoscientific tricks of argumentation) *really* believes that
argument by analogy has any sort of logical validity? However, I accept
that anything is possible in California (or so I have been told) so,
just in case argument by analogy has strangely gained some sort of
acceptable currency, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, but
also has several non-duck-like characteristics, is it still a duck, or
is there just a smidgeon of a possibility that it might be something
else?
Come on, Daniel, if you *really* try hard you ought to be able to type
those two (or three?) letters which form the direct answer to the
question I asked DD? (g)
--
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+ Stephen Tonkin | ATM Resources; Astro-Tutorials; Astronomy Books +
+ (N50.9105 W1.829) | (http://www.aegis1.demon.co.uk) +
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n972.4 ---------------
From: Robert Tolz (rtolz cosmoweb.net)
Subject: Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 15:45:47 -0500
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References: (199811070128.RAA09427 lists1.best.com)
Dan Dugan wrote:
) When will Anthroposophy admit some level of error
) in this regard and pull the organization back from the nuttiness?
If there is any nuttiness in anthroposophy, you will not find me to be
a supporter of it. Is it your sense of "fair play" and "balance" that
one should fight perceived nuttiness with contrasting nuttiness of one's
own? Or does the fact that you believe yourself to be "right" and they
to be "wrong" give you permission to do something that they are not
allowed to do? I see your insistence on Steiner and anthroposophy as
being connected to Nazism as nothing more than hate-mongering.
Bob
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n972 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n973 --------------
001 - mrgnsms metro.net - Unsubscribe
002 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
003 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
004 - spike (spike netshel.net) - The Nazi's Enemy No. 1
005 - spike (spike netshel.net) - Steiner - Nazism - PLANS
006 - Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis - Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
007 - Herman de Tollenaere (her - Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n973.1 ---------------
From: mrgnsms metro.net
Subject: Unsubscribe
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 21:00:17 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199811020547.VAA29130 lists1.best.com)
Please unsubscribe me. Too much anger and bitterness. Not enough
objective critique.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n973.2 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 21:08:51 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199811070128.RAA09427 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199811072049.MAA05293 lists1.best.com)
)Dan Dugan wrote:
)) When will Anthroposophy admit some level of error
)) in this regard and pull the organization back from the nuttiness?
)
) If there is any nuttiness in anthroposophy, you will not find me to
)be
)a supporter of it. Is it your sense of "fair play" and "balance" that
)one should fight perceived nuttiness with contrasting nuttiness of one's
)own? Or does the fact that you believe yourself to be "right" and they
)to be "wrong" give you permission to do something that they are not
)allowed to do? I see your insistence on Steiner and anthroposophy as
)being connected to Nazism as nothing more than hate-mongering.
)
) Bob
And I see calling well-founded research that you differ with, and the
people doing that research "hate-mongering" as nothing more than
demagoguery.
The "balance of hate" in the arguments between defenders of the Steiner
faith vs. Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophy critics in three years of this
list has fallen overwhelmingly on the pro-Steiner side. Its vitriol is
incomparable with the genuine anger, disappointment, surprise, and
intellectual displeasure of the critics, many of whom, like myself and my
children, have actually suffered harm at the hands of believers.
For what it's worth, I personally find PLANS's current focus on the
ideological underpinnings of Steiner's cult, and its racist flowering in
Nazism, a bit overplayed. I have said before that I wish this list would
concentrate on the present weeds of that ideology and its effect on
children.
But if it is necessary to explore the beginnings of Steiner/ Waldorf/
Anthroposophy's current racist tinges (reported by several people from
different lands on this list) in order to understand why the present cult
cannot divest itself of Steiner's legacy of racism, then let's get on with
it.
What would be worse: to be silent about the complicity of Steiner with
racist politics in Germany, if it be true, or to sweep it under the rug,
which it seems to me is what the Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophy cult has
done.
I see enough scholarship in the arguments for a link between Steiner and
Nazism/Germanic nationalism/racism to merit its continued discussion and
research by those who are interested. And I suspect that there are far more
qualified scholars than myself or Robert Tolz to do it.
This should be done in a spirit of academic freedom and a climate where we
remember that the same First Amendment which provides the central thesis of
PLANS's arguments against public Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophical schools
also provides for the protection of ALL speech, no matter how distasteful
to some beholders. [*]
The First Amendment (and all Constitutionally guaranteed freedoms) is
constantly under attack by those who would restrict freedom. A
Constitutional amendment has gotten as far as House and Senate committee
stage which proposes essentially the repeal of the "establishment" clause
of the First Amendment so that schools would have mandated "spiritual
meditation" periods, in which all children would have to engage (in their
own way). A wolf in sheep's clothing is still a wolf. [**] One kid's
"meditatation" is another kid's prayer, and if one kid is forced to
"meditate", how soon will it be before all kids are forced to pray?
Robert Tolz sounds as if he would like to see PLANS's criticisms of
Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophy banned under one of the flowering "hate
crime" laws which are making unfair play for fascist repression of dissent.
The United States may not always be the free place is seems to be. But the
words of too many Supreme Court justices to count will always echo the
sentiment that freedom must encompass that which it despises the most, for
if all are not free, none are -- except those who hold the most power and
write the rules.
Frankly, I'm surprised to hear Tolz saying this, given his ususally
measured and thoughtful arguments (most of which I disagree with).
[*] I was reminded of this again today while watching the film about Noam
Chomsky's "Manufacturing Consent", wherein he was vilified by critics like
William F. Buckley, for, among other things, saying that the French
academic who denied the Holocaust had a right to academic freedom, despite
France's anti-hate laws which prohibit Holocaust-denial. Chomsky is right.
Tolz is wrong.
[**] Terrible expression. I love wolves. They're nice, family-minded,
social animals with a bad reputation fostered by ... hate-mongers.
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n973.3 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 21:33:11 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199811061024.CAA22742 lists1.best.com)
(199811012111.NAA17865 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199811061623.IAA08925 lists1.best.com)
Steve Premo wrote about an exchange between Robert Tolz and Dan Dugan on
Rudolf Steiner's responsibility for the Nazi policy of the final solution,
and the Holocaust, part of a very lengthy and ongoing thread that appears
to have no end.
I have stayed out of this argument this time around, until now. In a
previous round of posts on this issue perhaps a year ago I said I agreed
that Steiner was a racist and that he bears some responsibility for German
history.
PREMO:
)The question, basically, is whether Steiner's teachings led to the
)holocaust. If not for Steiner, would millions of Jews have been
)killed by the Nazis?
)
)The answer is yes, as far as we know, Steiner's writings did not
)cause the Nazis to slaughter Jews.
No, I don't think the question is that bald. No single thing has ever been
identified as the cause of Nazism and the Holocaust (other than Hitler's
madness). Rather it is a complex event, like all human history.
I think the question for us is more like, was Steiner's thought, belief,
milieu, and his teaching, a help or a hindrance to the development of the
warped psychosis of Nazism, and Germany at large, and whether, to any
extent, Steiner therefore bears any responsibility for the vile actions of
the Nazis and the acquiescence of the German people to genocide under their
noses.
In other words, was he a part of the cultural movement towards totalitarian
racism. I think the answer appears to be yes, even if only in a minor,
early way.
The second question then is whether this is forgiveable, as Steiner was a
"man of his times", and we are wrong to retrospectively condemn him for
being so. The answer to this appears to be that plenty of other people in
Germany did not succumb to this cultural trend, and in fact opposed it. So
the fact that many people then knew the burgeoning nationalism/racism was
wrong, and acted upon it, makes Steiner culpable for his philosophical
racism from the viewpoint of *then* as well as now.
Perhaps Steiner would have woken up; perhaps not. He would certainly have
been eliminated as a free-thinking threat to Nazi control.
The issue of degree of culpability is not the main issue. The main issue is
whether there is ANY reason to think that Steiner IN ANY WAY helped foster
the Nazis and Holocaust.
The often-cited apologia, that Steiner was dead before Hitler came to power
and the Nazis closed Waldorf schools, has been dealt with as being not
relevant to the central question of whether Steiner _influenced_ the
climate of German towards totalitarian racial genocide.
It seems to me that there has been enough scholarship adduced and
summarised here to point to Steiner's culpability in this regard, whether
or not he was a man of his times, whether or not he was consciously and
intentionally sowing the seeds for the Holocaust, and whether or not he
would have opposed the Nazis had he lived. (He probably would have, but
most likely on the same grounds he used when he told followers to dupe
authorities about Anthroposophy and Waldorf schools: any opposition was
dangerous to his movement.)
)On the other hand, you might say, for example, that all socialists
)bear some responsibility for the excesses of Stalin and Mao. But
)it's a stretch, and it would hurt your credibility.
It's not the same thing, is it?
Steiner espoused a racist philosophy and religion, and said that inferior
races would have to die out before man reached the higher state he saw as
the natural successor to the (Germanic) Aryan one, which was the highest at
the time.
Socialism (in its original form and expression) did not espouse the killing
of millions of people. Stalin and Mao killed political opponents (in the
main, though some ethnic groups got caught as well; neither tried to wipe
out a whole, major culture as Hitler did, though Stalin killed whole
minorities). Note: I am not excusing either Stalin or Mao.
Hitler used racism as the central tenet of his political philosophy; Stalin
and Mao did not, and, therefore, are deemed garden variety tyrants in
comparison to the supposed beastiality and evil of Hitler (despite the fact
that Stalin and Mao each killed many times more people than Hitler).
So socialism did not CAUSE Stalin and Mao to kill, but racism WAS the main
goad to Hitler's, and Germany's, murderous path.
Racism is a fundamental evil, in our modern thinking. The fact that this
was recognised by many thinkers and ordinary people even at the time of
Hitler's rise makes any apologia for Steiner a farce.
So the final issue for us today is not whether Steiner was responsible for
the rise of Nazism and the Holocaust.
The issue for us today is whether Steiner's cult has repudiated his racist
philosophy (a wolf in sheep's clothing) or whether they still embrace it,
celebrate it, inculcate it in students and acolytes and the faithful, and
use its egregious thesis as a basis for teaching children about human
history, culture, society, religion, politics and philosophy.
)From my point of view as a parent who saw my children's work on a daily
basis, and heard teachers espouse ideas that were unaccepatably esoteric
and tending towards a racial theory, it appears that Steiner/ Waldorf/
Anthroposophical practitioners DO continue to use Steiner's faulty view of
human characteristics.
This is one of the several unacceptable aspects of SWA education, from my
point of view, and it needs to be addressed by the defenders of the faith
before they can get beyond claims that they are prey to Steiner's
prejudices. And prejudices they were, rather than wisdom received from
"higher worlds". Garden variety prejudices, as old as humanity.
Some of humanity has risen above these prejudices; some of it is still
trying to, imperfectly.
Some refuse to repudiate them. To the extent that SWA refuses to repudiate
its founder, it is at fault.
)) The continuing refusal of Anthroposophy today to repudiate those
))teachings
)) continues to discredit the organization.
)
)Of course. I don't think Bob is disputing that. He's pointing out
)that the continuing attempts of PLANS to link Steiner to Hitler
)discredits your organization. I agree with him.
)
)Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
How exactly does this viewpoint of PLANS discredit them?
If there is any evidence in the historical record to support their views --
and there seems to be -- is it not reasonable for them to have such a
viewpoint and to try to persuade people of it through their use of the
evidence?
If modern Steiner cultists do not repudiate Steiner's racist writing and
thought -- separate from the issue of whether Steiner has any
responsibility for the rise of Nazism and the Holocaust -- then PLANS's
criticism seems valid.
It appears that while individual apologists like Robert Tolz claim that
they perceive no overt racism in SWA practice today, the SWA establishment
continues to disseminate and inculcate the racist thinking of Steiner in
today's teachers -- whether they realise it or not.
Again, Mr Premo: how and why, exactly, does PLANS's assertions discredit
PLANS?
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n973.4 ---------------
From: spike (spike netshel.net)
Subject: The Nazi's Enemy No. 1
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 09:16:18 -0800
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Robert Tolz posted:
) If there is any nuttiness in anthroposophy, you will not find me to be
) a supporter of it.
If, after your contact with Anthroposophy and Waldorf and participating
in this list and, perhaps, the Waldorf Schools List, you can still ask,
"If . . .", I suspect you must be a supporter of it. What would
constitute nuttiness for you if it isn't the content of some of
Steiner's works regarding race, psuedoscientific beliefs, a concocted
world history, an unusual amalgam of religious beliefs which include the
reincarnation - *at present* - of Ahriman, and other facets too numerous
to mention?
)Or does the fact that you believe yourself to be "right" and they
) to be "wrong" give you permission to do something that they are not
) allowed to do?
What are you talking about here? What are "they *not allowed* to do?"
I see your insistence on Steiner and anthroposophy as
) being connected to Nazism as nothing more than hate-mongering.
Could it be that some people, ie; Dan Dugan, Herman de Tollenaere, and
others, believe this to be true? If a person, in good conscience,
perceives this connection, wouldn't it be incumbent on him to speak
publically to this perception? After all, Rudolf Steiner College has now
reached their hand into the public school coffers and the Waldorf
pedagogy with its psuedohistory, psuedoscience, anti-technology,
occultist mysticism, et al, has been instituted on some public school
campuses. If I also believed there was a strong connection to Nazism why
wouldn't I be impelled ring the alarms on this topic also?
I consider the teaching and acceptance of racist beliefs/stereotyping to
be hate-mongering. This has occurred, recently, in Waldorf schools in
Europe. Stanford observers were shocked to hear Anthroposophists refer
to the diminished intellectual capacities of African American school
children at the public Waldorf school in Milwaukee. These incidents are
documented and occurred during the current decade. Is speaking of these
incidents also hate-mongering?
Kathy
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n973.5 ---------------
From: spike (spike netshel.net)
Subject: Steiner - Nazism - PLANS
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 13:48:50 -0800
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Robert Tolz posted:
) I think I see the logic you're setting forth, though I'm pretty sure
) that few visitors to the PLANS website split the same hair that you
) have. When someone reads an article on your website authored by an
) officer of the organization, with no disclaimer as to the PLANS
) position, it's a pretty safe bet that the visitor takes this as an
) endorsement of the content.
Good point. Perhaps it's time for PLANS to discuss the creation of a
"Mission Statement" and our formal stance on the alleged Waldorf - Nazi
connection.
) Based on your logic, Herman de Tollenaere would not (be) justified in
) complaining about any anthroposophical organizations or magazines (or
) whatever) providing a forum for a neo-Nazi to spread hatred. Do I have
) that correct?
This doesn't sit well with me, for obvious reasons, but I need to give
my response some more thought. Off the top of my head, I would say there
is a difference between one organization posting an essay quoting
Steiner's statements and citing particular racist incidents that have
occurred in Waldorf schools and then using these to make a connection to
Nazism or racism vs. the printing of a Neo-Nazi forum in a magazine
published by the organization that is accused of having a racist stance
or Nazi link. The latter activity would simply lend more credence to the
allegation made by the first organization.
Is it truly your belief that protesting racist beliefs and activities
and ringing the alarm on Neo-Nazi activities is somehow on the same
moral plane as *supporting* (by publishing) Neo-Nazi activities?
Kathy
"Race prejudice is not only a shadow over the afflicted - it is a shadow
over all of us, and the shadow is darkest over those who feel it least
and allow its evil effects to go on." Peal S. Buck - 1943
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n973.6 ---------------
From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 21:52:53 +0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: (199811080808.AAA13533 lists1.best.com)
I couldn't resist this little retort (g):
)[**] Terrible expression. I love wolves. They're nice, family-minded,
)social animals with a bad reputation fostered by ... hate-mongers.
A bit like anthropops, really...
That said, I think there is a fair bit of sense in the message from
which that was an extract, but I think Michael misinterprets the reasons
behind what he perceives as vitriol from my side of the fence. The
professed disbelief is what it professes to be -- disbelief.
If I take my own position, when I first found the WC list, I did not
believe many of the criticisms and negative stories I found. In many of
them, there were instances where things were stated that were
falsifiable and I tended to throw the baby out with the bathwater -- I
know it is irrational to assume that just because some of a story is
demonstrably false (intentionally or otherwise) that the rest is suspect
and that similar stories are similarly suspect, but it is a natural
human response. I certainly become *very* suspicious/skeptical of
anything which appears to me to contain inconsistencies.
However, I think it needs to be acknowledged that people *have* been
hurt by inappropriate actions by Waldorf school teachers, either
individually or en masse. My take is that 99% of the time this is
through ignorance or incompetence, not intent. My life experience
suggests that the causing of such hurt is not a unique quality of
Waldorf schools.
As for the racism/Nazi card, like Michael I think it is overplayed.
Sure, some anthropops have had some pretty appalling racist views; most
don't. The same can be said for many (most? all?) groups in society.
Some people may have latched onto some of Steiner's more "difficult to
understand" pronouncements as support for views they already held, but
to blame Steiner for the holocaust is not only irrational, it also has
two other effects.
Firstly, it has the effect of making people who realise how ridiculous
the claim is throw out the rest of the criticisms -- like Michael's
history with his children's Waldorf schooling. It weakens legitimate
criticisms.
Secondly, and this is the one I more strongly object to, by giving
people a false peg to hang the causes of the holocaust upon, it deflects
from examining the true causes of such appalling inhuman acts, making it
more likely that they will recur. One might as well lay the cause of the
holocaust on Edison and Tesla, since Siemens used slave labour from
Aushwitz to make devices invented by Edison and Tesla, thereby creating
a "market" for concentration camp slaves. Ridiculous? Yes, it is, but no
more so than blaming Steiner or Blavatsky or esoteric spiritual beliefs
in general.
It is this latter reason which causes the likes of Herman de Tollenaere
to raise my hackles. By putting an apparent scholarly sheen on these
claims of links between the Nazis and Steiner, etc., he deflects
attention from what is really needed: research into how it is that whole
sections of humanity can come to see others sections as sub-human, can
fail to recognise the essential humanity in another person. The Jews
have been at the receiving end of this in Europe, for centuries before
any of the "pegs" de Tollenaere likes to hang it on existed. Similarly,
genocidal acts have occurred for millennia and still occur today.
A slight anecdotal digression, but it serves a purpose: About 30 years
ago, when I lived in Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), an Australian friend was
berating the racist attitudes of most white Rhodesians. I made the point
that, whilst I agreed they were appalling, it was hardly unique to
Rhodesians and offered the example of the white Australian treatment of
the Aborigines. I don't think I'll ever forget the words of his
response: "Abo's? You can't count them! They're not even human!" Then he
realised just what he had said...
The point I am trying to illustrate is that racism, even to the extent
of viewing other people as sub-human, can exist just below the surface
in people who are otherwise perfectly decent human beings. I suggest
that what the likes of Hitler did was to cynically exploit, on a far
greater scale than had been attempted before, something that *already*
exists within people and gave it a focus, in fact, gave it various foci.
He had, it seems, various disorders in his own psychology which decided
the foci he chose, but however unpalatable it may be to some people, the
persecution in Europe of Jews, gypsies, the mentally ill, homosexuals,
etc. had ample historical precedent stretching back for centuries, and
it was relatively easy for people to justify it to themselves. If we
pretend otherwise by trying to find convenient pegs external to
ourselves, we are almost certainly paving the way for a repetition.
This is getting off-topic for this list but, in the context of what has
been said already and of PLAN's playing of the "racist card", I think it
needed saying.
--
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+ Stephen Tonkin | ATM Resources; Astro-Tutorials; Astronomy Books +
+ (N50.9105 W1.829) | (http://www.aegis1.demon.co.uk) +
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n973.7 ---------------
From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 18:24:07 +0100
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From: Robert Tolz (rtolz cosmoweb.net)
Subject: Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 07:30:48 -0500
)Question 1: At any time prior to the end of World War II,
I'd say that the situation today [see my earlier mail] maybe is as,
probably more, relevant
)did any Nazi thinker or party member (other than the obscure Gravell
mentioned in the
)Goodrick-Clarke book) write anything which cited Steiner, anthroposophy
)or Waldorf in any significant way as support for the Nazi supremacy theories?
Yes. Karl Heise (born 1872) quoted Steiner [and Blavatsky and Guido von
List and Rosicrucians] again and again to support his anti-Semitic
conspiracy theory writings. Heise was an author in Weltkampf, the magazine
of Arthur Rosenberg, Hitler's chief ideologist. See the Austrian historians
Eduard Gugenberger/Franko Petri/Roman Schweidlenka:
Weltverschwoerungstheorien. Die neue Gefahr von rechts. Vienna, Deuticke,
1998, pages 88-89. According to Gugenberger/Petri/Schweidlenka, Heise was a
major influence on Himmler.
Also Rudolf Hess, Hitler's deputy. And people in the Dutch SS leadership in
Amsterdam (see also Mr Zweers, Dutch Anthroposophical musicologist, 1940s
SS magazine author, and 1990s Waldorf school jubilee eulogist, whom I
mentioned in my earlier mail).
Sorry, my lack of time gets only worse. So, only this first question for
now; others later. I advise Robert (and everyone) to study the historical
record before attacking Dan Dugan (or other participants).
best wishes
------------------------------------------
Herman de Tollenaere
------------------------------------------
Internet site:
http://stad.dsl.nl/~hermantl/
See also:
http://www.stelling.nl/simpos/simpoeng.htm
------------------------------------------
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n973 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n974 --------------
001 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: WS entering physical adolencence later at WS
002 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Unsubscribe
003 - Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis - Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
004 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Op-Ed on the dangers of early education
005 - BruceyJ aol.com - Re: Op-Ed on the dangers of early education
006 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Op-Ed on the dangers of early education
007 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: Op-Ed on the dangers of early education
008 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Op-Ed on the dangers of early education
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n974.1 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: WS entering physical adolencence later at WS
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 13:32:11 +0100
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SINGERCARP aol.com wrote:
) I have now found the scientist who carried out the survey at German Waldorf
) Schools in cooperation with the Bavarian department of health in 1976. His
) name is Dr. Matthiolius and he lived in Stuttgart, Germany.
) It was published in that year in "an American scientific magazine" - this is
) as far as I got - by a man called Prof. Schaefer.
Remembering the name and looking on the bookshelf I found:
It seems one version of the article was published as:
Matthiolus H, Schuh C: Reversal and Acceleration Trends in Waldorf
Schools. In: Schaefer K E, Stave U, Blankenburg W (ed): A New Image of
Man in Medicine, vol III: Individuation Process and Biographical Aspects
of Disease pp 83-101. New York: Futura Publishing Company (295 Main
Street, P.O.Box 298, Mount Kisco, New York 10549) 1979.
The first two volumes in the series were:
Vol I: Toward a Man-centered Medical Science, publ 1977, same publ and
Vol II: Basis of an Individual Physiology, to me unnown year, probably
same publ.
The authors of the work under discussion:
- Hanno Matthiolus, M.D., came from the Research Institute, League of
Waldorf Schools, Stuttgart, Germany
- Christa Schuh, M.D., same institute
The editors:
- Karl E Schaefer, M.D., was Director, Biomedical Sciences Department,
SMRL, Groton, Connecticut; Visiting Professor Environmental Physiology,
Brown University, Providence, Rhode island,
- Ute Stave, M.D., Ass Professor, Mailman Center and Department of
Pediatrics, University of Miami, Medical School
- Wolfgang Blankenburg, M.D. Professor, Chairman Department of
Psychiatry, University of Bremen
Some other contributors on the themes "Limits in the use of conventional
scientific methods in biology and medicine. The need for a man-centered
physiological science", "Basic concepts related to a man-centered
science", "Individuation process", "Phases of human life" and "Basic
concepts related to a man-centered science" (vol I and II) were:
- Claus B Bahnson, Ph.D., Director, Behavioral Sciences Department,
Eastern Pennsylvania Psychiatric Institute and Professor of Psychiatry,
Jefferson Medical College, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
- Ludwig von Bertalanffy, Ph.D, late Professor, State University of New
York, Buffalo, NY (posthumous paper)
- Herbert Hensel, M.D., Professor, Chairman Department of physiology,
University of Marburg, Germany
- Walter Heitler, Ph.D., Professor, Chairman Deparment of Physics,
university of Z¸rich, Switzerland
- Wolfgang Jacob, M.D., Professor, Department of Pathology, University
of Heidelberg, Germany
- Bernhard Lievegoed, M.D., Professor, Department of Social Pedagogy,
University of Rotterdam, Holland
- Raymond Moore, Ph.D., Professor, Andrews University, Berrian Springs,
Michigan
- Paul Weiss, Ph.D., Professor Emeritus, Biology. The Rockefeller
University, N.Y., N.Y.
- Joseph Weizenbaum, Ph.D., Professor of Computer Sciences, MIT, Boston,
Mass
Some prople who learnt to read at school and had given the problems some
thought, it seems.
Friendly greetings,
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n974.2 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Unsubscribe
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 00:39:19 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199811020547.VAA29130 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199811080500.VAA29470 lists1.best.com)
)Please unsubscribe me. Too much anger and bitterness. Not enough
)objective critique.
I guess we won't be getting it from you, then.
-Dan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n974.3 ---------------
From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 18:02:07 +0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: (199811082310.PAA24693 lists1.best.com)
Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl) wrote:
)I advise Robert (and everyone) to study the historical
)record
Do you mean just those bits of it where historians have claimed a
Steiner/Nazi link (i.e. those which support your contentions), or also
those bits which show that Steiner was anti-Nazi (e.g. as posted here in
the past by Peter Schwab) and those bits of it which show racist
activity earlier than and/or independent of Steiner (e.g. the hunting of
San ("Bushmen") by early white settlers in southern Africa).
Do you, for example, suggest that we should study the circumstances
around the intentional sinking of a shipload of Jews in the North Sea
in mediaeval times; do you suggest that Hendrik Verwoed and the other
architects of apartheid were influenced by anything connected with what
MK calls SWA?
I realise that historians and sociologists can find the scientific
method to be a tad inconvenient, even if they understand it, but I
suggest that evidence that is contrary to an historical hypothesis might
actually disprove it, just as it would disprove a scientific one.
--
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+ Stephen Tonkin | ATM Resources; Astro-Tutorials; Astronomy Books +
+ (N50.9105 W1.829) | (http://www.aegis1.demon.co.uk) +
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n974.4 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Op-Ed on the dangers of early education
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 10:56:52 -0800
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Perhaps Dan was write about the turning age (of learning critical thinking) being around 6 or 7. I found this on my usual internet news binges. Anyone know who this guy is? If I had more time I would track down the studies, but I thought someone on this list might know something and save me some time.
e
ALEX SALKEVER writes from HONOLULU
[Oct. 8, 1998] -- I am fortunate. My childhood
passed during a more innocent age, when playing
baseball after school was considered to be a
fine way to spend a few hours.
If I were a kid today, I would likely not have
such a jolly time of it. In fact, I would be
shuttling madly between Japanese classes and
advanced theoretical physics while studying
flashcards in the car on the way to underwater
viola lessons. From the tender age of three or
four I would be rigorously tutored in Greek and
Latin classics and taught C++ while hanging in
gravity boots.
Not that I would want to do any of this stuff;
my parents would likely have foisted it all
upon me to give me a leg up on the world, a
competitive advantage to get me into the right
pre-school, which would in turn get me into the
right school, which would get me into the right
college and then the right graduate school so
someday I could make enough money to buy a big
house and surgically alter my wife. You're
never too young to learn, right?
Wrong, says a slew of new studies on early
childhood. Heavily structured education at an
early age produces socially maladjusted humans
with potentially serious side effects. And
here's the final insult: Such kids are no
better off academically, the research showed.
"We want our children to read and to have good
levels of numeracy, so we think that the more
we instruct children from an earlier and
earlier age the more they will know," said
Oxford professor Kathy Sylva, who heads the
British Department of Education and
Employment's early learning research program,
in an interview with the BBC. "I think this is
misguided."
Downright dangerous might be more accurate. At
least one U.S. study shows that kids who
received rigorous education before the age of
six have high levels of truancy and crime later
in life, according to an article in the English
daily The Observer.
Conducted by the High Scope Foundation, a
respected Michigan educational charity and
think-tank, the study followed underprivileged
children through 30 years of their lives, and
found that early-bird learners were also more
likely to get divorced and had more trouble
holding jobs.
"Formal education for children under six is a
negative experience and I can't possibly
recommend it," said High Scope's David Weikart,
according to the Observer.
Why this took a 30-year study to figure out is
beyond me. The education bureaucracy has long
underestimated the value of play. And in doing
so it has ignored millennia of child-rearing
traditions, whereby children have been pretty
much left to run wild until they were old
enough to work or attend school. And whose
educational advice would you trust ‚- a Ph.D.'s
or your grandmother's?
Academe's reawakening about early education
will eventually trickle down through the
illegible journals and the model schools to a
handful of magazines and maybe even the parents
themselves.
And none too soon. The world is already full up
with joyless, sexless, socially twisted folks.
"I think we have enough evidence now that young
children -- that's children under six and
certainly under five -- will have the best
foundation for formal learning from a more
play-based early-childhood program," Sylva told
the BBC.
School's out, babies. Go outside, play and be
free. Enjoy it until the next egghead gets a
bright idea and locks you in a shack to learn
Swahili.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n974.5 ---------------
From: BruceyJ aol.com
Subject: Re: Op-Ed on the dangers of early education
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:18:37 EST
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In einer eMail vom 09.11.98 20:41:24 MEZ, schreiben Sie:
(( Perhaps Dan was write about the turning age (of learning critical thinking)
being around 6 or 7 ))
I think its the write time for me to right about myself! BTW I have forwarded
the text from Honululu to a colleague there in case he can help you in your
search Ezra!
Anyone who seriously wishes to know who I am may look at the Anhang
(Attachment?) which is the same as I posted on other lists and is simply an
introduction to myself written (in English) for the school newspaper.
Bruce
PS Although I find some of the content of this list rather cynical (!) I have
no intention of going away, and one day I might seriously write something!
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--part0_910642718_boundary--
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n974.6 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Op-Ed on the dangers of early education
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 23:26:43 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199811091904.LAA19289 lists1.best.com)
Ezra Beeman wrote:
) Perhaps Dan was write about the turning age (of learning critical
) thinking) being around 6 or 7. I found this on my usual internet
) news binges. Anyone know who this guy is? If I had more time I
) would track down the studies, but I thought someone on this list
) might know something and save me some time.
High Scope Foundation, that conducted the study seems to have its own
site.
http://www.highscope.org/research/RESMAIN.HTM links to a number of
studies examining and comparing effectiveness of educational programs.
http://www.highscope.org/research/RESCUR.HTM describes one of these
studies shortly, that compared the Direct Instruction model with a
traditional Nursery School model and the High/Scope model. 69 children,
ages 3 and 4 years, were randomly assigned to one of three preschool
groups, each receiving a preschool program based on a different
curriculum model.
The High/Scope and Nursery School approaches emphasized
child-initiated activities in which young children pursued their own
interests with staff support. The Direct Instruction approach, in
contrast, focused on academics and required young children to respond to
rapid-fire questions posed by teachers.
"Initially, all three curriculum approaches improved young children's
intellectual performance substantially, with the average IQs of children
in all three groups rising 27 points. By age 15, however, students in
the High/Scope group and the Nursery School group--that is, those
students whose curriculum approaches had emphasized child-initiated
activities--reported only half as much delinquent activity as the
students in the Direct Instruction group.
Findings at age 23 continue to support the conclusion that the
High/Scope and Nursery School groups are better off than the Direct
Instruction group in a variety of ways. Either the High/Scope group, the
Nursery School group, or both, show statistically significant advantages
over the Direct Instruction group on 17 variables. Most important,
compared with the Direct Instruction Group, the High/Scope and Nursery
School groups have had significantly fewer felony arrests of various
kinds and fewer years of special education for emotional impairment. In
addition, compared with the Direct Instruction group, the High/Scope
group aspires to complete a higher level of schooling, and has more
members living with their spouses. It thus appears that preschool
programs that promote child-initiated activities (such as the
High/Scope and Nursery School programs) seem to contribute to the
development of an individual's sense of personal and social
responsibility."
Long live supported playing and learning on your own!
Cheers!
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n974.7 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Op-Ed on the dangers of early education
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:09:01 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
In-Reply-To: (199811091904.LAA19289 lists1.best.com)
On 9 Nov 98, at 10:56, Ezra Beeman wrote:
) ALEX SALKEVER writes from HONOLULU
)
) Wrong, says a slew of new studies on early
) childhood. Heavily structured education at
) an early age produces socially maladjusted
) humans with potentially serious side
) effects. And here's the final insult: Such
) kids are no better off academically, the
) research showed.
You know, Ezra, maybe this explains the difference between the
advanced students I went to school with, who were, by and large,
happy and well-adjusted people, and those you went to school
with, who were apparently an unhappy lot.
I went to school in the 60's and early 70's, before it became popular
to accelerate learning for smart kids. I hung out with the advanced
students, but I didn't know any kids who had been pushed that way
intellectually at an early age.
Maybe the smart kids you met at college were subjected to this
kind of pressure in early childhood. That would seem to explain
why they seemed less happy than the rest of the students.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum."
(A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.)
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n974.8 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Op-Ed on the dangers of early education
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 15:41:39 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199811092310.PAA14643 lists1.best.com)
Yes, I though I did not think of your example, I thought this relevant to my argument (against pushing critical thinking or most any adult concern). You may be right. I'm sure many of the kids were in 'advanced' classes since they could talk.
e
Steve Premo wrote:
) On 9 Nov 98, at 10:56, Ezra Beeman wrote:
)
) ) ALEX SALKEVER writes from HONOLULU
) )
) ) Wrong, says a slew of new studies on early
) ) childhood. Heavily structured education at
) ) an early age produces socially maladjusted
) ) humans with potentially serious side
) ) effects. And here's the final insult: Such
) ) kids are no better off academically, the
) ) research showed.
)
) You know, Ezra, maybe this explains the difference between the
) advanced students I went to school with, who were, by and large,
) happy and well-adjusted people, and those you went to school
) with, who were apparently an unhappy lot.
)
) I went to school in the 60's and early 70's, before it became popular
) to accelerate learning for smart kids. I hung out with the advanced
) students, but I didn't know any kids who had been pushed that way
) intellectually at an early age.
)
) Maybe the smart kids you met at college were subjected to this
) kind of pressure in early childhood. That would seem to explain
) why they seemed less happy than the rest of the students.
)
) Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
) "Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum."
) (A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.)
) http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n974 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n975 --------------
001 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
002 - Robert Tolz (rtolz cosmow - Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
003 - Robert Tolz (rtolz cosmow - Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n973
004 - Robert Tolz (rtolz cosmow - Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n973
005 - Robert Tolz (rtolz cosmow - Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
006 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
007 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
008 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
009 - Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis - Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
010 - Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis - Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n975.1 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:42:45 -0700
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References: (199811061623.IAA08925 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199811080834.AAA24111 lists1.best.com)
On 8 Nov 98, at 21:33, Michael Kopp wrote:
) PREMO:
) )The question, basically, is whether Steiner's teachings led to the
) )holocaust. If not for Steiner, would millions of Jews have been
) )killed by the Nazis?
) )
) )The answer is yes, as far as we know, Steiner's writings did not
) )cause the Nazis to slaughter Jews.
)
) No, I don't think the question is that bald. No single thing has ever been
) identified as the cause of Nazism and the Holocaust (other than Hitler's
) madness). Rather it is a complex event, like all human history.
)
) I think the question for us is more like, was Steiner's thought, belief,
) milieu, and his teaching, a help or a hindrance to the development of the
) warped psychosis of Nazism, and Germany at large, and whether, to any
) extent, Steiner therefore bears any responsibility for the vile actions of
) the Nazis and the acquiescence of the German people to genocide under
) their noses.
)
) In other words, was he a part of the cultural movement towards
) totalitarian racism. I think the answer appears to be yes, even if only in
) a minor, early way.
That is probably true.
) )On the other hand, you might say, for example, that all socialists
) )bear some responsibility for the excesses of Stalin and Mao. But
) )it's a stretch, and it would hurt your credibility.
)
) It's not the same thing, is it?
Yes and no. Racism is different, and worse, than a philosophy that
holds the common good over the rights of the individual.
Socialism holds the common good over the rights of the individual
to, say, sell the product of his labor as he pleases. Then, since
the common good is more important, and since socialism serves
the common good, the need to "send the right message" overrides
the individual's right to express ideas contrary to socialist
philosophy.
And, of course, folks that defy the law must be punished; that is
the nature of government.
So arguably, carried to its logical extreme, socialism leads to a
government which executes or exiles political dissidents.
Nevertheless, it's a stretch to hold individual socialists responsible
for the excesses of Mao and Stalin, even if they personally believe
in free speech.
By the same token, anyone who proposes that there are inherent
differences in the abilities and spiritual qualities of people of
different races may be said to be responsible for genocide and
other excesses of racism, even if those individuals personally
oppose oppression or discrimination on account of race. But it's
the same kind of stretch.
) So the final issue for us today is not whether Steiner was responsible for
) the rise of Nazism and the Holocaust.
)
) The issue for us today is whether Steiner's cult has repudiated his racist
) philosophy (a wolf in sheep's clothing) or whether they still embrace it,
) celebrate it, inculcate it in students and acolytes and the faithful, and
) use its egregious thesis as a basis for teaching children about human
) history, culture, society, religion, politics and philosophy.
That is a perfectly valid concern, and one that I share. As I said,
it's fine to point out the racism in Steiner's writings, and how that is
expressed in the schools.
) )) The continuing refusal of Anthroposophy today to repudiate
) )) those teachings
) )) continues to discredit the organization.
) )
) )Of course. I don't think Bob is disputing that. He's pointing out
) )that the continuing attempts of PLANS to link Steiner to Hitler
) )discredits your organization. I agree with him.
) )
) )Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
)
) Again, Mr Premo: how and why, exactly, does PLANS's
) assertions discredit PLANS?
Hehe. You can call me Steve, Michael, even when we're in
disagreement.
There are two problems with tying Hitler into all this. First, it's a
stretch. Second, my experience is that Hitler's name tends to be
invoked a lot in all sorts of contexts, usually by fanatics who are
seriously overstating their case. For example, anti-abortionists
compare pro-choice people to Nazis and to Hitler. My first reaction
to something like that is to figure that the people making the
comparison are some kind of kooks, and to disregard the
message, unless the people who are being compared to Hitler
actually practice genocide.
Hitler has become the name to invoke when you run out of good
arguments.
As you know, Steiner never advocated genocide, and as far as I
know, he advocated treating people as individuals and opposed
discrimination. On the other hand, he also had some racist views
on the qualities and characteristics of people of different races.
Anthroposophists should stand up and say he was wrong about
that. But when PLANS talks about Steiner's ideas as having
contributed to the holocaust, they come off as a bunch of fanatics,
whatever grain of truth there may be.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum."
(A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.)
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n975.2 ---------------
From: Robert Tolz (rtolz cosmoweb.net)
Subject: Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 14:09:49 -0500
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Herman de Tollenaere wrote:
)
) )Question 1: At any time prior to the end of World War II,
)
) I'd say that the situation today [see my earlier mail] maybe is as,
) probably more, relevant
It is certainly more relevant to those who want to keep a watchful eye
against a repetition of past horrors, and I certainly applaud whatever
action you might take on that front.
However, it is not relevant to the ultimate question of whether Waldorf
education should be tainted by an implication that Steiner was a
significant contributor to the rise of the Nazis.
)
) )did any Nazi thinker or party member (other than the obscure Gravell
) mentioned in the
) )Goodrick-Clarke book) write anything which cited Steiner, anthroposophy
) )or Waldorf in any significant way as support for the Nazi supremacy theories?
)
) Yes. Karl Heise (born 1872) quoted Steiner [and Blavatsky and Guido von
[snip]
That's interesting. Did these people rely on anybody else besides
Steiner and other occult philosophers to justify the holocaust?
)
) Sorry, my lack of time gets only worse. So, only this first question for
) now; others later. I advise Robert (and everyone) to study the historical
) record before attacking Dan Dugan (or other participants).
Boy, I seem to be accused of attacking when all I mean to do is
criticize.
--
Robert Tolz
Email: rtolz cosmoweb.net
Web: http://www.cosmoweb.net/~rtolz
Tel: (212) 754-9400
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n975.3 ---------------
From: Robert Tolz (rtolz cosmoweb.net)
Subject: Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n973
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 13:59:06 -0500
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Kathy wrote:
) Robert Tolz posted:
)
) ) I think I see the logic you're setting forth, though I'm pretty sure
) ) that few visitors to the PLANS website split the same hair that you
) ) have. When someone reads an article on your website authored by an
) ) officer of the organization, with no disclaimer as to the PLANS
) ) position, it's a pretty safe bet that the visitor takes this as an
) ) endorsement of the content.
)
) Good point. Perhaps it's time for PLANS to discuss the creation of a
) "Mission Statement" and our formal stance on the alleged Waldorf - Nazi
) connection.
I think that would be entirely appropriate.
)
) Is it truly your belief that protesting racist beliefs and activities
) and ringing the alarm on Neo-Nazi activities is somehow on the same
) moral plane as *supporting* (by publishing) Neo-Nazi activities?
)
Supporting or publishing Neo-Nazi activities contributes to hate
mongering. As I've stated in other posts, it is my view that the
Steiner-Nazi connection is so ridiculously tenuous as to rise to the
level of hate-mongering, which in this case is the attempt to besmirch
and create hatred for the target by any means possible. You have every
right to disagree with my evaluation, but, to my mind, when PLANS
supports or publishes these ideas, it contributes to hate mongering.
The moral plane is similar, thought certainly not identical.
--
Robert Tolz
Email: rtolz cosmoweb.net
Tel: (212) 754-9400
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n975.4 ---------------
From: Robert Tolz (rtolz cosmoweb.net)
Subject: Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n973
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 13:43:33 -0500
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Kathy wrote:
)
) Robert Tolz posted:
)
) ) If there is any nuttiness in anthroposophy, you will not find me to be
) ) a supporter of it.
)
) If, after your contact with Anthroposophy and Waldorf and participating
) in this list and, perhaps, the Waldorf Schools List, you can still ask,
) "If . . .", I suspect you must be a supporter of it. What would
) constitute nuttiness for you if it isn't the content of some of
) Steiner's works regarding race, psuedoscientific beliefs, a concocted
) world history, an unusual amalgam of religious beliefs which include the
) reincarnation - *at present* - of Ahriman, and other facets too numerous
) to mention?
I do not support any of the things you mention.
)
) )Or does the fact that you believe yourself to be "right" and they
) ) to be "wrong" give you permission to do something that they are not
) ) allowed to do?
)
) What are you talking about here? What are "they *not allowed* to do?"
Be nutty.
)
) I see your insistence on Steiner and anthroposophy as
) ) being connected to Nazism as nothing more than hate-mongering.
)
) Could it be that some people, ie; Dan Dugan, Herman de Tollenaere, and
) others, believe this to be true? If a person, in good conscience,
) perceives this connection, wouldn't it be incumbent on him to speak
) publically to this perception? After all, Rudolf Steiner College has now
) reached their hand into the public school coffers and the Waldorf
) pedagogy with its psuedohistory, psuedoscience, anti-technology,
) occultist mysticism, et al, has been instituted on some public school
) campuses. If I also believed there was a strong connection to Nazism why
) wouldn't I be impelled ring the alarms on this topic also?
I do think that a person has the right to speak his or her mind, in
good conscience. My purpose in this discussion is to indicate that what
is being argued, because it is so overreaching in my judgment as well as
the judgment of others, sounds like a beyond-the-limits of reason
attempt to discredit the "other side" through whatever means necessary.
If I were PLANS (not that I could be an organization) I'd stick to the
more credible arguments.
)
) I consider the teaching and acceptance of racist beliefs/stereotyping to
) be hate-mongering. This has occurred, recently, in Waldorf schools in
) Europe. Stanford observers were shocked to hear Anthroposophists refer
) to the diminished intellectual capacities of African American school
) children at the public Waldorf school in Milwaukee. These incidents are
) documented and occurred during the current decade. Is speaking of these
) incidents also hate-mongering?
No, it is not.
--
Robert Tolz
Email: rtolz cosmoweb.net
Web: http://www.cosmoweb.net/~rtolz
Tel: (212) 754-9400
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n975.5 ---------------
From: Robert Tolz (rtolz cosmoweb.net)
Subject: Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 13:29:42 -0500
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Michael Kopp wrote:
) And I see calling well-founded research that you differ with, and the
) people doing that research "hate-mongering" as nothing more than
) demagoguery.
Frankly, I don't see any well-founded research that implies anything
other than the Nazis bent whatever they wanted to for their own
purposes.
) For what it's worth, I personally find PLANS's current focus on the
) ideological underpinnings of Steiner's cult, and its racist flowering in
) Nazism, a bit overplayed.
What it's worth? To me, it's worth a lot, Michael.
)
) Robert Tolz sounds as if he would like to see PLANS's criticisms of
) Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophy banned under one of the flowering "hate
) crime" laws which are making unfair play for fascist repression of dissent.
Wherever did you get that idea, Michael. The fact that I vehemently
disagree with a position and seek to convince others does not mean I
favor suppression of speech.
I'll tell you what I was considering, but thought better of. I had
been considering writing to PLANS board members and consultants to
advise them of the positions being taken here, in hopes that there might
be some who would be as aghast as I am and bring some tempering
influence. I decided that it was inappropriate for me to "intervene" in
the internal affairs of PLANS. It's up to the officers and board
members who participate on this list to inform others, not me.
Besides, if the board and officers of PLANS fail to see how negative
the public's perception can be of an organization that advances the
position that I've complained of, let them live with it.
Anybody is free to take whatever position they want to in our society
(New Zealand's included), but others will judge the credibility of the
individual, organization or political party by a number of standards.
One of those standards would be whether or not someone is perceived as
wielding a tool or argument in an unreasonable fashion. Witness the
turmoil in the Republican Party which has resulted from the U.S.
public's reaction to recent political events.
You can see from comments by others on this list, including one whom I
believe you've never accused of being a Defender of the Faith (TM), that
the perception is similar to what I've espoused.
)
) Frankly, I'm surprised to hear Tolz saying this,
Well, I didn't say what you said I said. Stop creating such false
straw men that are so easy to knock down.
) given his ususally
) measured and thoughtful arguments (most of which I disagree with).
I'll take that as a compliment, sort of. :-)
Here's a compliment for you, Michael. Whenever you address an argument
to me, I really do believe you bring out the best in me!
--
Robert Tolz
Email: rtolz cosmoweb.net
Web: http://www.cosmoweb.net/~rtolz
Tel: (212) 754-9400
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n975.6 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:01:51 +1200
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In-Reply-To: (199811100104.RAA18601 lists1.best.com)
Robet Tolz says Michael Kopp misquotes him:
KOPP:
)) Robert Tolz sounds as if he would like to see PLANS's criticisms of
)) Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophy banned under one of the flowering "hate
)) crime" laws which are making unfair play for fascist repression of
))dissent.
)
TOLZ:
) Wherever did you get that idea, Michael. The fact that I vehemently
)disagree with a position and seek to convince others does not mean I
)favor suppression of speech.
No, but the fact that you call that position "hatemongering", and suggest
that PLANS resile from it, certainly sounds like you could favour speech
suppression.
If that's not your aim, then you've taken quite a proprietary, solicitous
and friendly interest in the welfare of PLANS by giving them public
relations suggestions.
Sounds to me more like you're trying to shut them up for some other reason.
Like they are maybe touching a nerve that Steiner/ Walforf/
Anthroposophical defenders of the faith would like to have forgotten?
KOPP:
)) Frankly, I'm surprised to hear Tolz saying this,
)
TOLZ:
) Well, I didn't say what you said I said. Stop creating such false
)straw men that are so easy to knock down.
You're the straw-man maker, Mr Tolz, not I.
I did not say you _said_ PLANS's speech should be suppressed.
I quoted you -- accurately -- as saying that PLANS was "hatemongering".
I said that seemed to me to be the type of thing a demagogue who would
suppress speech would say. That is MY opinion of YOUR statement.
I did NOT misquote you. Saying that a critic misquoted something is a
favourite false defence of defenders of the faith.
KOPP:
)) given his ususally
)) measured and thoughtful arguments (most of which I disagree with).
)
TOLZ:
) I'll take that as a compliment, sort of. :-)
)
) Here's a compliment for you, Michael. Whenever you address an
)argument
)to me, I really do believe you bring out the best in me!
Well, if your best is to accuse critical scholars of "hatemongering", and
suggest their muzzling, however disguised, then I'm proud to have brought
out your best side, Mr Tolz. It's one of my journalistic skills I'm proud
of.
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n975.7 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:22:43 +1200
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(199811061623.IAA08925 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199811092359.PAA23538 lists1.best.com)
Steve Premo says:
)On 8 Nov 98, at 21:33, Michael Kopp wrote:
)
)) Again, Mr Premo: how and why, exactly, does PLANS's
)) assertions discredit PLANS?
)
)Hehe. You can call me Steve, Michael, even when we're in
)disagreement.
)
)There are two problems with tying Hitler into all this. First, it's a
)stretch. Second, my experience is that Hitler's name tends to be
)invoked a lot in all sorts of contexts, usually by fanatics who are
)seriously overstating their case. [snip]
)
)Hitler has become the name to invoke when you run out of good
)arguments.
) [snip]
)But when PLANS talks about Steiner's ideas as having
)contributed to the holocaust, they come off as a bunch of fanatics,
)whatever grain of truth there may be.
Well, I think it's a BIG stretch to compare PLANS's minor obsession
(Steiner's racism and influence on Gemanic/Nazi extemism and the Holocaust)
with the REAL fanatacism of some of your examples, like the
anti-abortionist. These "kooks", as you call them, don't stop at comparing
abortionists with Hitler; they go out and kill doctors and innocent people
who they associate with the (to them) evil of abortion.
I haven't noticed any terrorist activities on the part of PLANS. Nor have I
seen any incitement to anything stronger than picketing. Is that now to be
forbidden in American public dissent?
On the other hand, Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophical defenders of the
faith HAVE (apparently -- the issue remains a matter of who you believe in
the absence of a court case) engaged in personally inujurious behavior
towards people who disagree with SWA (Kathy Sutphen's damaged career and my
own personal experience of the harm to my kids and the venom directed at me
personally by Steiner school people).
And I do hope you never have to eat your words, Steve, about the
"kookiness" of those who would warn about Neo- and Crypto- Nazism. Much
less its overt, nasty, skinheaded form. That's already killed a young man
raised by Anthroposophists (the Denver case) though I'm NOT saying it's
because his parents were Nazi-sympathers in Steiner drag.
Those who forget history and its warnings, and consider new warnings to be
overstated, should remember that the rise of Nazism was just such a gradual
thing as the renascence of fascism in even democratic societies today.
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n975.8 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 18:50:55 -0700
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On 10 Nov 98, at 15:22, Michael Kopp wrote:
) Steve Premo says:
)
) )But when PLANS talks about Steiner's ideas as having
) )contributed to the holocaust, they come off as a bunch of fanatics,
) )whatever grain of truth there may be.
)
) Well, I think it's a BIG stretch to compare PLANS's minor obsession
) (Steiner's racism and influence on Gemanic/Nazi extemism and the
) Holocaust) with the REAL fanatacism of some of your examples, like the
) anti-abortionist.
I'm not accusing PLANS of fanaticism. I'm saying that a casual
reader, seeing an attempt to tie Steiner to Hitler, is likely to
conclude that the good people at PLANS are a bunch of fanatics
because that is a tactic that fanatics, among others, frequently use.
) Is that now to
) be forbidden in American public dissent?
Who said anything about forbidding dissent?
I think that the connection some PLANS people attempt to make
between Steiner and Hitler is too weak to be significant, and I think
PLANS loses credibility by taking that position. I don't think they
should take that position because it hurts their cause, which I
basically agree with. That doesn't mean I think they should be
*prohibited* from making that argument.
) And I do hope you never have to eat your words, Steve, about the
) "kookiness" of those who would warn about Neo- and Crypto- Nazism. Much
) less its overt, nasty, skinheaded form.
Hey, real Nazis *should* be accused of being fascist hate-
mongers. One of the problems with crying "Nazi" too much,
though, is it's like crying "wolf." It detracts from the seriousness of
the neo-fascist movement.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum."
(A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.)
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n975.9 ---------------
From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 06:45:57 +0000
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In-Reply-To: (199811082310.PAA24693 lists1.best.com)
In response to Bob Tolz's request for some simple answers to direct
questions, Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl) answered only one
(at length), then wrote:
[...]
)Sorry, my lack of time gets only worse.
[...]
Bob, since Dr de Tollenaere was unable to find the time to type the few
letters required to give simple answers to your other questions, perhaps
you would not object if I answered your question about the existence of
statements or deeds (I forget which -- your post has auto-expired on my
computer) by Steiner which indicate an anti-racist/Nazi stance. The
simple answer is: YES.
I know that you did not ask for amplification, but let me give a little
anyway. Firstly, there is the copious amount of evidence given by Peter
Schwab when he responded to the playing of the Nazi/racism card some
time ago.
Secondly, I came across this the other day. It is from a lecture in the
book _The Festivals and their Meaning_ -- the lecture entitled _A
Michael Lecture_:
"[Michael] also sternly rejects all separating elements (...) (...) in
the evolution of humanity there is much that will not receive this
impulse of Michael but wants to reject it. Among the things that would
fain reject the impulse of Michael today are the feelings of
nationality. (...) By the principle of nationality many things have been
ordered, or rather, disordered in the most recent times. For they have
in fact been disordered."
Now, I know that there is a distinction between "feelings of
nationality" and National Socialism, and that "nation" does not equate
to "race", but the phrase "*all* separating influences" (my emphasis)
must surely include race, unless we believe that racism is not, /de
facto/, a separating influence; it must also include *all* those things
which the Nazi's used to separate, in their own minds, those groups of
people whom they persecuted from what they (the Nazi's) peceived as
worthy of consideration as being human.
HTH
--
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+ Stephen Tonkin | ATM Resources; Astro-Tutorials; Astronomy Books +
+ (N50.9105 W1.829) | (http://www.aegis1.demon.co.uk) +
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n975.10 ---------------
From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 07:03:17 +0000
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In-Reply-To: (199811100104.RAA18520 lists1.best.com)
Robert Tolz (rtolz cosmoweb.net) wrote:
) Boy, I seem to be accused of attacking when all I mean to do is
)criticize.
A typical "cult-like" response to criticism? (g)
--
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+ Stephen Tonkin | ATM Resources; Astro-Tutorials; Astronomy Books +
+ (N50.9105 W1.829) | (http://www.aegis1.demon.co.uk) +
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-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n976 --------------
001 - Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis - Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
002 - ckzfrey (ckzfrey ix.netco - Dugan does eurythmy...yeah,right
003 - Robert Tolz (rtolz cosmow - Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n975
004 - "Luke Schelly" (lschelly - Relative culpability
005 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Computers
006 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Computers
007 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - By way of comparison
008 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: By way of comparison
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n976.1 ---------------
From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 07:29:16 +0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: (199811100648.WAA03225 lists1.best.com)
I wrote:
)Firstly, there is the copious amount of evidence given by Peter
)Schwab when he responded to the playing of the Nazi/racism card some
)time ago.
Perhaps, in stead of making these references, it is time tfor me o look
in the archives:
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n308.6 ---------------
From: "Peter Schwab" (pschwab access.ch)
[...]
Rudolf Steiner's view on Uncle Adolf & Co. Facts!
Fact #1: Let's see what the nazi's themselfes thougt about
Anthroposophy:
--------
Preussische Geheime Staatspolizei Berlin, den 1. November 1935.
Der stellv. Chef und Inspekteur
Nach der geschichtlichen Entwicklung der Anthroposophischen
Gesellschaft ist diese international eingestellt und unterh=E4lt auch
heute noch enge Beziehungen zu ausl=E4ndischen Freimaurern, Juden und
Pazifisten. Die auf der P=E4dagogik des Gr=FCnders Steiner aufgebauten
und in den heute noch bestehenden anthroposophischen Schulen
angewandten Unterrichtsmethoden verfolgen eine individualistische nach
dem Einzelmenschen ausgerichtete Erziehung, die nichts mit den
nationalsozialistischen Erziehungsgrunds=E4tzen gemein hat.
Infolge ihres Gegensatzes zu dem vom Nationalsozialismus vertretenen
v=F6lkischen Gedanken besteht die Gefahr, dass durch die weitere
T=E4tigkeit der Anthroposophischen Gesellschaft die Belange des
nationalsozialistischen Staates gesch=E4digt werden.
Die Organisation ist daher wegen ihres staatsfeindlichen und
staatsgef=E4hrlichen Charakters aufzul=F6sen.
gez. Heydrich
--------
Translation (as good as I can!):
Gestapo Berlin, 1 November 1935
Vice-chief and inspector
Following the historical evolution of the Anthroposophical Society it
is internationally minded and has still close connections with foreign
free-masons (note: the german ones were dissolved, dead or in
concentration camps), jews and pazifists. The methods based on the
padagogy of their founder Rudolf Steiner used in the still existing
anthroposophical schools persue an individualistic education, oriented
towards the single humand beeing and has nothing in common with
national-socialistic fundamentals of education.
Because of their opposition with the the Folk-Spirit ("v=F6lkischer
Gedanken", nearly untranslatable) advocaded by the natioal-socialism
the danger exists that the future activities of the Anthroposophical
Society may damage the intersts of the national-socialistic state.
Therefore this organisation has to be dissolved because of it's
anti-state and dangerous character.
(translation end)
As for who Heydrich was, look in your history book.
Dan Dugan provided the following additional information after the
first post of this collection:
)No, apparantly that opinion did not result in a general order.
)According to Leschinsky [1], the Waldorf schools were harassed
)individually by local authorities. Hitler's deputy Rudolf Hess, who
)favored Anthroposophy, intervened twice to keep Waldorf schools open.
)Leschinsky attaches as an appendix to his article a paper by leading
)Nazi educational theorist Alfred Baeumler arguing that the Waldorf
)schools were advancing the purposes of National Socialism. Points in
)their favor were their anti-intellectual curriculum and the fact that
)they had very few Jewish students. According to Leschinsky, the
)Waldorf schools dismissed their Jewish teachers, and most of the
)teachers joined the Nazi teachers union. Some schools lasted until
)1938, five years after the Nazi takeover.
)[1] Leschinsky, Achim. "Waldorfschulen im Nationalsozialismus." *Neue
)Sammlung* Vol. 83 (1983) p. 255.
I personally believe that most of the schools closed well before
1938.
Fact #2:
1897, long before Emile Zola, Rudolf Steiner openly defends the jew
Alfred Dreyfuss, french officer falsly accused of espionage. (GA 31,
page 221-224)
Fact #3:
1901, Steiner writes a couple of essays for the journal "Mitteilungen
aus dem Verein zur Abwehr des Antisemitismus" (Announcments from the
Society against anti-semitism). (GA 31, p.393-419).
Fact #4:
1899-1904 Steiner is a teacher at the "Sozialdemokratische
Arbeiterbildungsschule" in Berlin, founded by Karl Liebknecht, not
precisely a right-wing institution...
It seem that Steiner's idea about the "Soziale Dreigliederung"
(social threefoldness) did not precisly match Liebknecht's political
convitions. So they split a little bit later.
Fact #5:
1919 Steiner founds together with friends of the middle class
(B=FCrgertum) and the social democratic union movement (USPD) the
"Bewegung f=FCr soziale Dreigliederung" (Movement for social
threefoldness). In march 1921 Steiner is attacked in the
nazi-newspaper "V=F6lkischer Beobachter" by Adolf Hitler himself who
judges Steiner's theory as "j=FCdische Methode zur Zerst=F6rung der
normalen Geistesverfassung der V=F6lker" (jewish (!) method to destroy
the normal spiritual state of the people). (Flesburger Hefte, vol. 32,
"Anthroposophen und Nationalsozialismus", p. 70)
Fact #6:
1919 Steiner warns against the anti-semite text "Protokolle der
Weisen von Zion". Some parts of this junk reemmerged later on in
Hitler's mega-junk "Mein K(r)ampf". (GA 190, p. 114)
Fact #7:
1920 and 1923 Steiner warns several times against the "black-magical"
use of the swastica (GA 199, speeches of 27.08.1920 and 10.09.1920, GA
350, speech of 10.09.1923)
(OK, this is anthropop folklore, but even then ...)
Fact #8:
1922 Steiner is warned by Hans B=FCchenbacher that he is #8 or 9 on the
nazi hitlist of "persons to be shot". His friends organize Steiner's
protection as good as they can. The 15 may 1922 after a speech held in
the hotel "Vier Jahreszeiten" in Munich, a group of militant nazis
attack Rudolf Steiner. He escapes under the protection of his friends,
the police remaining inactive. The next morning he secretly leaves
Munich and never returns.
It has been asked why Steiner didn't attempt to rally opposition to
Hitler's party. I think the answer is that Rudolf Steiner did not want
to get into politics at seek political power. And maybe he
underestimated the ugly brown wave to come, as so many people did
back in the 1920s.
I hoe this answers the "Where was Rudolf Steiner?" question.
Let me close with the following quote from Rudolf Steiner, which is
at the end of his conference to the workmen at the Goetheanum on the
3th march 1923. This is the document where he talks extensivly about
the differences between the various human races. Therefor Dan Dugan
and Co. _love_ to quote from it extensively, but they never mention
Rudolf Steiner's conclusion which puts his quotes all back into context:
"Es ist einmal so beim Menschengeschlecht, dass die Menschen =FCber die
Erde hin eigentlich alle aufeinander bezogen sind. Sie m=FCssen
einander helfen. Das ergibt sich schon aus ihrer Naturanlage."
(3. M=E4rz 1923, GA 349)
"It is evident within mankind, that all human beings all over the
world are somehow tied together. They have to help each other. This
is the obvious result of human nature."
(free translation by yours truely...)
No good/bad or upper/lower or master/slave races. But natural
differences between human beings. And mutual dependencies.
No patronizing, touching plea to "take up the white man's burden", but
"we must help EACH OTHER".
Sorry, I still fail to see any "proto-nazism" here.
Best wishes
+peter+
---------------------------------------
At the time I responded:
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n309.1 ---------------
From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
[...]
Peter Schwab (pschwab access.ch) writes
)Sorry, I still fail to see any "proto-nazism" here.
Well, Peter, I think you have (again) demonstrated that:
#1 Anthroposophists of the 1920s and '30s didn't think anthroposophists
had anything in common with the Nazis.
#2 The Nazis didn't think that the anthroposophists had anything in
common with the Nazis.
However, despite this, it is clear that some people would like us to
believe that the anthroposophists (and Steiner) did have things in
common with the Nazis.
Answering the question "Why would they want us to believe this
nonsense?" is left as an exercise for the student...
---------------
--
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+ Stephen Tonkin | ATM Resources; Astro-Tutorials; Astronomy Books +
+ (N50.9105 W1.829) | (http://www.aegis1.demon.co.uk) +
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n976.2 ---------------
From: ckzfrey (ckzfrey ix.netcom.com)
Subject: Dugan does eurythmy...yeah,right
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 98 07:31:45 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
)
)) Why don't you extend you research into curative eurythmy?
))This certainly is concurrent with your ravenous appetite for things
))Anthroposophical.
)
)I'm interested, can you guide me to the best publications?
Dan,
You can no more learn eurythmy from a book than you could learn painting
or driving a car.
You've got to get some of those funny little shoes and take some classes!
Believe me, I'm about the last person anybody expected to be doing
eurythmy, but it's cool!
And it's the only thing I have ever done that makes my
multiply-surgeried, arthritic knees feel better.
It's not as thrilling as motorcycle racing, but it's helped my legs alot
more!
Go on, tough guy, you can do it! What's wrong? Are ya scared?
Eurythmically yours,
XXXOOO
Charlie
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n976.3 ---------------
From: Robert Tolz (rtolz cosmoweb.net)
Subject: Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n975
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:10:57 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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References: (199811100706.XAA16451 lists1.best.com)
Michael Kopp wrote:
)
) No, but the fact that you call that position "hatemongering", and suggest
) that PLANS resile from it, certainly sounds like you could favour speech
) suppression.
When I call the position "hate-mongering," I am merely doing what you
have taught me to do so well: call a spade a spade.
Your inference that I could "favour speech suppression" couldn't be
further from the truth.
)
) If that's not your aim, then you've taken quite a proprietary, solicitous
) and friendly interest in the welfare of PLANS by giving them public
) relations suggestions.
)
) Sounds to me more like you're trying to shut them up for some other reason.
) Like they are maybe touching a nerve that Steiner/ Walforf/
) Anthroposophical defenders of the faith would like to have forgotten?
Yeah, it touches a nerve. I've used the term "outraged" in this
context before, when I wrote of my sensitivity (as a member of the race
that Hitler sought to eradicate) to anybody trying to exploit the
Hitler/Nazi inflammatory rhetoric hot button. As a Jew, I am far more
offended by what I hear coming out of PLANS today than the recitations I
hear about what Steiner may have said three-quarters of a century ago.
)
) KOPP:
) )) Frankly, I'm surprised to hear Tolz saying this,
) )
) TOLZ:
) ) Well, I didn't say what you said I said. Stop creating such false
) )straw men that are so easy to knock down.
)
) You're the straw-man maker, Mr Tolz, not I.
)
) I did not say you _said_ PLANS's speech should be suppressed.
)
) I quoted you -- accurately -- as saying that PLANS was "hatemongering".
)
) I said that seemed to me to be the type of thing a demagogue who would
) suppress speech would say. That is MY opinion of YOUR statement.
)
) I did NOT misquote you. Saying that a critic misquoted something is a
) favourite false defence of defenders of the faith.
You said you were surprised to hear me say "this." The closest
reference to me in your post was "Robert Tolz sounds as if he would like
to see PLANS's criticisms of Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophy banned
under one of the flowering "hate crime" laws which are making unfair
play for fascist repression of dissent."
I didn't say any of what you attribute to me in that reference, nor do
I believe it.
Perhaps instead of using the words "I didn't say what you said I said,"
I should have used the words "I have never believed what you believe I
believe." You still built up a straw man and knocked it down.
--
Robert Tolz
Email: rtolz cosmoweb.net
Web: http://www.cosmoweb.net/~rtolz
Tel: (212) 754-9400
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n976.4 ---------------
From: "Luke Schelly" (lschelly JackRouse.com)
Subject: Relative culpability
Date: 10 Nov 1998 11:46:42 -0500
I was going to include (embed) this question in a response to "meistro"
Kopp, but I am still a "hunt and peck" typer, and it takes so long to type an
idea that I frequently loose focus on the point (a limitation/quality for us
"typing-challenged" that hopefully technology will soon give us the freedom to
choose consciously). So, after a half a day of pecking and repecking a
response, I had to give up and go back to work. Today, I just decided to ask
the question.
(Looking back, I can see this is a self referential statement about my
loosing focus)
Any way,
For an "impish" sense of perspective, does anyone have any feelings or
stories or facts that would support or refute a notion that "rationalism"
and/or "scientific inquiry" could be tarred with a similar Holocaust/Nazis
insanity brush? Didn't the Nazis engage in torture/experiments on all kinds
of people (gaining some knowledge which we sadly and ironically benefit from
today, I think)?
I say this partly to raise the ire of Micheal (grin)... (I tend to picture
him as furiously typing his responses like some kind of Rachmoninoff(?)
recital, it is a wonder), but mostly to begin to express my feeling that; to
my mind, there was a collective breakdown in just about every driving force of
human culture when one looks back at the Nazis.
So, to me, it seems that there may be a "relativity of culpability" in this
issue where, in the end, nothing looks good. (But hey, I'm told I'm kind of a
melancholic and cynical person. Please pass the chocolate.)
Luke
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n976.5 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Computers
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:28:01 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199811101648.IAA11416 lists1.best.com)
Luke wrote,
) I was going to include (embed) this question in a response to "meistro"
)Kopp, but I am still a "hunt and peck" typer, and it takes so long to type an
)idea that I frequently loose focus on the point (a limitation/quality for us
)"typing-challenged" that hopefully technology will soon give us the freedom to
)choose consciously). So, after a half a day of pecking and repecking a
)response, I had to give up and go back to work. Today, I just decided to ask
)the question.
There is, I've heard, a computer program available for PC's that responds
to voices - I heard about it at my son's school conference [during a moment
when our conference focus went off tract]. Seems some local public school
officials set up computers with that program for computer-phobic
administrators. Recently, one was set up at the public Waldorf school for
the principal's use. I also heard that the computer still wasn't being
used...
Perhaps you could look into that.
Debra
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n976.6 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Computers
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:06:23 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199811101828.KAA14212 lists1.best.com)
voice recognition as has come along way. In fact, MS bought out (or joint ventured, same thing with MS) a voice recognition company whose module you can download from the MS site and use on a trial basis. Unfortunately, all the problems associated with character recognition are amplified when dealing with speech. If you really want to turn someone off from computers, expose them to unproven or bleeding edge technology. Brave New World it is not, yet.
e
PS IMHO the best ergonomically interactive device you can hook up to your computer is The Clapper.
PPS Chia Pet is a close second, but watering that paint on seed paste makes it tricky to implement. However, such IT headaches or not any worse than with your typical MS product.
Debra Snell wrote:
) Luke wrote,
)
) ) I was going to include (embed) this question in a response to "meistro"
) )Kopp, but I am still a "hunt and peck" typer, and it takes so long to type an
) )idea that I frequently loose focus on the point (a limitation/quality for us
) )"typing-challenged" that hopefully technology will soon give us the freedom to
) )choose consciously). So, after a half a day of pecking and repecking a
) )response, I had to give up and go back to work. Today, I just decided to ask
) )the question.
)
) There is, I've heard, a computer program available for PC's that responds
) to voices - I heard about it at my son's school conference [during a moment
) when our conference focus went off tract]. Seems some local public school
) officials set up computers with that program for computer-phobic
) administrators. Recently, one was set up at the public Waldorf school for
) the principal's use. I also heard that the computer still wasn't being
) used...
)
) Perhaps you could look into that.
) Debra
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n976.7 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: By way of comparison
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:55:43 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Schools Fail To Expose Kids to Arts
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Only one in four students gets the chance to sing, play an
instrument or perform plays in class each week, even though most American schools offer
some type of arts education program, an Education Department study found.
As many schools increase their spending on such areas as computers and special
education, less money is available to pay for arts classes. But the failure to give students
instruction or performance opportunities in music, arts and theater is serious, said
Education Secretary Richard Riley.
``In nearly every field in which we need to foster new ideas in order to succeed -- from
computers to communications -- people with an education in the arts are playing critical
conceptual roles,'' he said Tuesday.
Renee Williams of the National School Boards Association said arts education programs
vary among school districts but a trend against them has emerged.
``When school districts are strapped for funds, the programs that seem to get cut first
before athletics or anything else are the arts programs,'' she said. ``Some people just don't
see the importance of it, that there has been recent research done on how these types of
curriculums in music and art can help with brain development.''
The first National Assessment of Educational Progress in the arts, which covered only
classes during normal school hours, found music is the most commonly offered arts class.
Some form of the subject was taught at least once a week in 81 percent of schools. Just 9
percent of schools offered no music courses at all.
Visual arts were taught at least once a week at 77 percent of schools, and 17 percent
offered no such classes.
Weekly theater arts classes were offered at 17 percent of schools, but 74 percent of
schools failed to offer that subject at all. Dance was the least available art, offered at least
once a week at 7 percent of schools surveyed and unavailable at 80 percent.
Not surprisingly, students with frequent instruction did better than those with fewer classes
when tested on knowledge and skills in the arts, the study found.
For example, when asked to sing, create music and perform dances, students who had
instruction at least once a week scored an average of 53 out of 100 points, compared with
27 for students who didn't study music.
The NAEP study, often called the nation's report card, was conducted in 1997 on a
representative sample of 6,660 students from 268 public and private schools. Previous
report cards have assessed students' performance in math, history, reading and science.
AP-NY-11-10-98 1503EST
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n976.8 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: By way of comparison
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:19:23 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199811102330.PAA07727 lists1.best.com)
)Schools Fail To Expose Kids to Arts
Thanks, Ezra. Great article. My son attends a performing arts school. He is
exposed to _lots_ of art, integrated into the curriculum. He dances and
performs in plays. Both times his art work has been shown [as part of his
class] publicly, he has had a painting stolen. While frustrating, I told
him that he must take that as a compliment. His teachers have made deals to
purchase his work before we've even seen it. That I do not like, and I
complained loudly. For Derek, art and sports is everything. He struggles
through academics, but excels in the arts.
His school is fun to tour - like Waldorf - there is much student art on the
walls, unlike Waldorf, it is all different.
OTOH, Max attends traditional public school. This year his music teacher
was let go, yep, do to budget cuts. I see very little art coming home with
him. That concerns me, but not him. He is gifted in academics, but can't
draw a straight line to save his soul. He never liked art, be it Waldorf
art or any other kind.
Debra
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n976 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n977 --------------
001 - spike (spike netshel.net) - Critical Thinking
002 - SINGERCARP aol.com - Cry "wolf"
003 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Critical Thinking
004 - Herman de Tollenaere (her - fwd - High Court Allows Religious School Vouchers
005 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: fwd - High Court Allows Religious School Vouchers
006 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Cry "wolf"
007 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Waldorf Questions
008 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: fwd - High Court Allows Religious School Vouchers
009 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Waldorf Questions
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n977.1 ---------------
From: spike (spike netshel.net)
Subject: Critical Thinking
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 11:57:15 -0800
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References: (199811092359.PAA23541 lists1.best.com)
Ezra Beeman posted:
) ALEX SALKEVER writes from HONOLULU
Critical thinking does not equate, necessarily, with formal education.
Critical thinking is a way of looking at things. When children play they
are generally engaging in critical thinking on some level. Asking a
child what they are doing (interacting with the child), asking them why
and, *occasionally* (when appropriate), asking them where else they
might apply what they have learned is simply a way to engage with a
child in a manner that encourages them to use what they have chosen to
learn and to think about how they are using it. Children love this type
of interaction and will often initiate it on their own volition. Anyone
with a young child in the house knows this. It is simply being more
conscious about your interaction on some occasions.
I am in complete agreement that too much early, formalized, structured
activity is not good for young children. I have 3 children and none of
them were subjected to the type of activities described in the article
you posted. However, I encourage critical thinking in all my children
from the time that they indicated to me, through their chosen
interaction, that they were ready for it. Looking back I would say this
began around the age 3.
Critically yours,
Kathy
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n977.2 ---------------
From: SINGERCARP aol.com
Subject: Cry "wolf"
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:42:32 EST
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I had written twice TO MICHAEL KOPP:
)I happen to belong to the people who's parents generation faced
)the well-known *treatment* by the Nazis for being anthroposophists.
)My parents left Germany for Switzerland where I was born. It
)hurts to be on the side of the victims in the first place and to be
)blamed later for the opposite role, as if things hadn't been clear
)enough back then in the 30/40ies...
ROBERT TOLZ wrote to MICHAEL KOPP:
) Yeah, it touches a nerve. I've used the term "outraged" in this
)context before, when I wrote of my sensitivity (as a member of the race
)that Hitler sought to eradicate) to anybody trying to exploit the
)Hitler/Nazi inflammatory rhetoric hot button. As a Jew, I am far more
)offended by what I hear coming out of PLANS today than the recitations I
)hear about what Steiner may have said three-quarters of a century ago.
I am still waiting for an ANSWER from MICHAEL KOPP.
Tom Singer-Carpenter
Switzerland/Germany
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n977.3 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Critical Thinking
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 14:54:59 -0800
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References: (199811092359.PAA23541 lists1.best.com) (199811112001.MAA10709 lists1.best.com)
Hello.
spike wrote:
) Ezra Beeman posted:
)
) ) ALEX SALKEVER writes from HONOLULU
)
) Critical thinking does not equate, necessarily, with formal education.
Did I say that? Did anyone say that. Proof of causation, ontologically speaking, is impossible. Of course it is a favorite method for building straw men. Or castles in the sky.
) Critical thinking is a way of looking at things.
Critical thinking, to me and people should add their opinions (reasons are nice), necessarily equates with skepticism. Skepticism is inversely proportional to belief. If you disagree with these propositions, please do so explicitly.
What I find interesting is the correlation between avowed skeptics and their cynical beliefs.
Observation, IMHO, can not be a purely skeptical exercise or as the logical positivists have pointed out, who's to say the representation in our brains truly matches that of reality. My point is that a priori, believe plays some role. I will leave the details to the Devil.
) When children play they
) are generally engaging in critical thinking on some level.
When mice hit that bar for more cocaine, they are engaging in critical thinking on some level.
) Asking a
) child what they are doing (interacting with the child), asking them why
) and, *occasionally* (when appropriate), asking them where else they
) might apply what they have learned is simply a way to engage with a
) child in a manner that encourages them to use what they have chosen to
) learn and to think about how they are using it.
Your point is lost on me as it pertains to your introduction and my post.
) Children love this type
) of interaction and will often initiate it on their own volition.
This action is so vague as to be irrelevant. I can do the same with computer code.
) Anyone
) with a young child in the house knows this. It is simply being more
) conscious about your interaction on some occasions.
And let me introduce you to the concept of metacognition and its more ugly red headed step child, paranoid schizophrenia. You make anything hyper aware of itself and it is a painful if not entirely debilitation thing. In fact, sometimes I wonder if my WE encouraged this kind of metacognition which I sometimes wish would go away. In it's most noble form is ensures compassion and empathy (ie courtesy and altruism), at its worst it is pathological. Of course it could be genetic, if you want to
believe.
) I am in complete agreement that too much early, formalized, structured
) activity is not good for young children.
What you suggested (formalized) seemed to have a process (and might I add that it is exceedingly difficult to formalize that which has no structure),
) I have 3 children and none of
) them were subjected to the type of activities described in the article
) you posted. However, I encourage critical thinking in all my children
) from the time that they indicated to me, through their chosen
) interaction, that they were ready for it. Looking back I would say this
) began around the age 3.
Critical thinking involves skepticism, which manifest in the form of doubt. When kids begin to doubt, they cease to be children. Soon imagination, and all other things innocent, become bounded by doubt.
e
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n977.4 ---------------
From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: fwd - High Court Allows Religious School Vouchers
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:11:52 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
http://www.infoseek.com/Content?arn=a1674roptz-19981109&qt=church&sv=I2&lk
=&col=NX&kt=A&ak=news1486
U.S. High Court Allows Religious School Vouchers
12:18 a.m. Nov 10, 1998 Eastern
By James Vicini
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - In a precedent-setting case with possible
nationwide significance for education policy, the U.S. Supreme Court
Monday allowed state funds to be used to send poor children to religious
schools.
With only Justice Stephen Breyer dissenting, the nine-member court
rejected a challenge arguing that a Wisconsin private school voucher
program violates the constitutional requirements on the separation
between church and state.
The justices let stand without any comment a landmark Wisconsin Supreme
Court ruling that the program passed constitutional muster because it has
a secular purpose and will not have the primary effect of advancing
religion.
The Supreme Court action was not a ruling on the merits, but it
nonetheless could encourage other states or cities around the country to
adopt similar programs.
``The battle over Wisconsin's voucher program raises issues of national
significance that are arising around the country,'' Steven Shapiro of the
American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) said. The ACLU was among the groups
that challenged the school choice law in 1995 and appealed to the Supreme
Court.
The Supreme Court, under conservative control, has issued a string of
rulings in recent years that lowered the wall of separation between
church and state by allowing some state involvement with religious
schools. The Wisconsin program initially allowed about 1,500 children in
Milwaukee to attend private, non-religious schools with the tuition paid
by tax dollars.
But the program was expanded to cover as many as 15,000 children, or
about 15 percent of the total student enrollment. They can attend the
school of their choice, religious and private nonsectarian alike, at
state expense.
Under the program, any child in a family whose income is near the poverty
level will get a voucher of nearly $5,000. The state then will cut the
city's public school budget by the same amount for each student who
transfers out of the system.
The voucher check is sent directly to the private school, but the parent
must sign it. More than 6,200 students took part in the program this
school year.
To qualify for the program, a single parent can make no more than $14,000
per year while the income limit has been set at $28,000 for a family of
four.
Opponents argued that the program would undermine the efforts to improve
Milwaukee's public schools by diverting tax dollars from them and would
violate the church-state separation set out in the First Amendment of the
Constitution.
Besides the ACLU, those challenging the law were the NAACP and its
Milwaukee branch, the National Education Association, the Milwaukee
Teachers Education Association, and the groups People for the American
Way and Americans United for Separation of Church and State.
The program ``involves the systematic expenditure of millions of tax
dollars each school year to pay for thousands of elementary and secondary
school students to attend private schools, the overwhelming majority of
which are pervasively sectarian,'' the groups said in the appeal.
They said the private schools may spend the tax dollars for whatever
secular or religious purposes they choose.
Supporters said the programs would promote competition in education and
force public schools to improve.
The defenders, including the legal counsel to Wisconsin Gov. Tommy
Thompson, said the law involved an experimental education program to help
poor children in the state's most economically depressed city.
They described the program as a ``neutral and indirect state funding
program.''
Clint Bolick of the Institute for Justice, which has supported voucher
programs, told the court: ``This case has ramifications far beyond its
formal contours, for the entire nation has a direct stake in securing the
broadest possible range of educational opportunities for our nation's
children.''
Copyright 1998 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Republication and
redistribution of Reuters content is expressly prohibited without the
prior written consent of Reuters. Reuters shall not be liable for any
errors or delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance
thereon.
Copyright © 1994-98 Infoseek Corporation.
All rights reserved.
Disclaimer Privacy Policy Local information:
--
Cult victims
www.enturbulate.nu
------------------------------------------
Herman de Tollenaere
------------------------------------------
Internet site:
http://stad.dsl.nl/~hermantl/
See also:
http://www.stelling.nl/simpos/simpoeng.htm
------------------------------------------
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n977.5 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: fwd - High Court Allows Religious School Vouchers
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 15:47:00 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199811112259.OAA12495 lists1.best.com)
Yeah I saw that, pretty interesting. Unfortunately, since they merely decided not to review it, their thoughts on the issue is pure speculation. I would have like to know why the lone Justice objected.
There was an article in the SFO paper yesterday about a Silicon Valley guy who is going to put a voucher proposition (but called something else) on the Ballot.
I wanted to post the link, but the paper gave one that does not work. I think PLANS will have to find some other issue to focus on should this guy be for real.
e
Herman de Tollenaere wrote:
)
) U.S. High Court Allows Religious School Vouchers
) 12:18 a.m. Nov 10, 1998 Eastern
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n977.6 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Cry "wolf"
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 15:41:04 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199811112253.OAA04723 lists1.best.com)
Sounds like he is being dismissive of other's real life pain. Maybe you can bait him by disguising your request as a challenge to his own experience. I guess people's personal experience of fascism only matters if it is one's own and not WE related.
I also have relatives with tattoos, some should know what this means.
e
SINGERCARP aol.com wrote:
) I had written twice TO MICHAEL KOPP:
) )I happen to belong to the people who's parents generation faced
) )the well-known *treatment* by the Nazis for being anthroposophists.
) )My parents left Germany for Switzerland where I was born. It
) )hurts to be on the side of the victims in the first place and to be
) )blamed later for the opposite role, as if things hadn't been clear
) )enough back then in the 30/40ies...
)
) ROBERT TOLZ wrote to MICHAEL KOPP:
) ) Yeah, it touches a nerve. I've used the term "outraged" in this
) )context before, when I wrote of my sensitivity (as a member of the race
) )that Hitler sought to eradicate) to anybody trying to exploit the
) )Hitler/Nazi inflammatory rhetoric hot button. As a Jew, I am far more
) )offended by what I hear coming out of PLANS today than the recitations I
) )hear about what Steiner may have said three-quarters of a century ago.
)
) I am still waiting for an ANSWER from MICHAEL KOPP.
)
) Tom Singer-Carpenter
) Switzerland/Germany
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n977.7 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf Questions
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 00:52:34 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199811102239.RAA10042 mail.a-znet.com)
Dear Jeff, your questions are good. I'm subscribing you to the
waldorf-critics email mailing list, and posting your questions there. Then
you'll not only get my answers, but comments from others and rebuttals from
Anthroposophists.
-Dan
)Dear Mr. Dugan,
) I trust you got my response to your earlier e-mail. I'm now ready to
)ask you some questions concerning your opinions about Waldorf education.
)If you need clarification, please let me know.
(To the list: Jeff is a college student who is writing a paper on Waldorf.)
) 1--When did your son attend the San Francisco Waldorf School? When
)did you leave the school?
David did half of sixth grade and all of seventh grade at the San Francisco
Waldorf School. Around 1988.
) 2--Why are you so adamant about expressing your views about Waldorf
)Schools (articles, web site, etc.)?
They kicked us out because I refused to be quiet (talking with the other
parents) about my problems with the school: 1) teaching Anthroposophical
doctrine as science, 2) selling books with 1920's German racism, 3)
promoting Anthroposophical medicine. My first impulse was to write a couple
of articles and distribute them to all the parents. I started reading
Steiner and subscribing to Anthroposophical publications. I wanted my
critique to be based on more than just my limited experience.
As my research continued, I saw that the subject was much broader than I'd
realized at first. I decided that what I should really do was write a book.
My tentative title was "Waldorf Education: A Primer for Perplexed Parents."
Years of research followed. It became a fascinating hobby.
About four years ago something new happened. Led by Betty Staley of Rudolf
Steiner College, Waldorf began to move into public education as "Waldorf
method." At the same time the charter school movement took hold, and in
nine or ten states "Waldorf-inspired" charter schools started springing up.
Knowing what I knew about Waldorf, I saw it as a church-state problem. This
changed my focus from research to political activism.
Simultaneously the Internet arrived. I was banned from the Waldorf email
mailing list, so I started a mailing list and a "Waldorf Critics
Association." Then I connected with Debra Snell, who had been through her
own Waldorf cult drama, and organized "Parents for Legal and Non-Sectarian
Schools." Thus PLANS was born.
) 3--Besides your son, what other sources do you use in your
)commentaries on Waldorf Schools?
Publications mostly, books and periodicals, and I go to lectures, too.
) 4--You said earlier that you thought Waldorf students received
)superior education in some respects and inferior education in others, in
)terms of children of similar economic class. Could you please elaborate
)on this?
I wish I knew. Studies are needed.
) 5--What was the reaction to the 1997 survey of San Francisco Waldorf
)Parents?
It was after I had left the school. All comments written on the survey
forms are printed in the survey.
) 6--Do you know anything about what happens to Waldorf students after
)they graduate? Are they more/less likely to suffer difficulty in
)conventional high schools or colleges?
I wish I knew.
) 7--Do you consider anthroposophy a cult?
No. It was a cult when Steiner was alive, but now it's in the process of
becoming a religion. Look at the history of Mormonism. Today Anthroposophy
is a cult-like religious sect.
) 8--Is there anything Waldorf Schools can do to alleviate your criticisms?
Yes. Be honest about what they do and what they stand for. Get out of
public education. Repudiate Steiner's racism (see the Lutheran church re
the Jews). Stop pretending Steiner was an authority on history, science or
medicine.
) I hope these questions were not too long or vague. Please take your
)time in answering them and let me know if you have any other questions or
)concerns.
)
)Sincerely,
)Jeff Horseman
) ***************************
)The pure and simple truth is rarely pure and never simple.
) --Oscar Wilde
)
)I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts
)
) --Will Rogers
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n977.8 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: fwd - High Court Allows Religious School Vouchers
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 08:18:36 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
In-Reply-To: (199811112259.OAA12495 lists1.best.com)
On 11 Nov 98, at 23:11, Herman de Tollenaere wrote:
) U.S. High Court Allows Religious School Vouchers
This article is very misleading. First it says:
) WASHINGTON (Reuters) - In a precedent-setting case with possible
) nationwide significance for education policy, the U.S. Supreme Court
) Monday allowed state funds to be used to send poor children to religious
) schools.
A precedent-setting case. Possible nationwide significance. The
court allowed state funds to be used for a voucher program.
But the real significance of the case is set forth a few paragraphs
down:
) The Supreme Court action was not a ruling on the merits . . .
The court was not ruling on the merits. In other words, this case
was one of the hundreds of cases that they declined to review, in
favor of the 80 or 90 cases that they chose to review.
The precedential significance of that is zero. Zilch. Nada.
Now, it's possible that the court decided not to review it because
the justices agreed with the lower court ruling upholding vouchers.
Or, as is maybe more likely, they thought other cases were more
important for various reasons.
For example, where there is a split between circuits, i.e., where
some courts of appeal have ruled one way on an issue and others
have ruled the other way, it becomes more important for the
Supreme Court to settle the issue.
In any event, to refer to this as a precedent-setting case is
erroneous. Reuters blew it.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum."
(A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.)
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n977.9 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Waldorf Questions
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 08:35:06 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199811120856.AAA28740 lists1.best.com)
For the most part, I think a relatively balanced response from Dan. Two things.
Firstly, anthros are NOT mormons, nor are they anything LIKE mormons and the implication is a politically motivated one. There is no tithing, there are no Salamander's, no wirding and no bigamy (the list of what they don't have in common could easily cause a buffer overflow, so I'll stop now). At least he didn't compare anthros to Scientologists (but I'm sure a deconstructed analysis would reveal why).
Secondly, I think you are throwing the baby out with your dirty laundry (mixing metaphors is just super). If I remember correctly, usually you advocate keeping the nice bits of WE and tossing the rest (ie keep art, sans color wheels and wet on wet, dump the rests). Why the fascism all of a sudden?
live long and prosper.
e
Dan Dugan wrote:
) yadda yadda yadda.
)
) -Dan Dugan
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n977 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n978 --------------
001 - cara (cara internet-zahav - [Fwd: [Fwd: Fw: Virus Alert]]
002 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: Fw: Virus Alert]]
003 - Kathy (spike netshel.net) - Critical Thinking
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n978.1 ---------------
From: cara (cara internet-zahav.net)
Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: Fw: Virus Alert]]
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 01:29:13 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
)Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 22:17:04 +0200
)From: adi eshed (aditour netvision.net.il)
)X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I)
)To: LaÈrcio (mpir ronam.com.br),
) Andre Tenenbaum (tenenba ibm.net), arnon (arnonj35 green.co.il),
) dadon amos (daelic internet-zahav.net),
) David Rosenthal (drosen netpe.com.br),
) "eskenazi mex1.uninet.net.mx" (eskenazi mex1.uninet.net.mx),
) esti (estir iil.intel.com), Gilad Moll (mollg bigfoot.com),
) Hanoch/Cara (cara internet-zahav.net), iafa (iafa nutecnet.com.br),
) levinbuk (levinbuk ruralrj.com.br),
) Motti Pearl (mpearl ilccm1.iil.intel.com),
) Paulo Ankier (pcankier rocketmail.com),
) Roberto/Esther (robest internet-zahav.net),
) shiedu-sp (shiedu sol.com.br), Yael Altuvia
(yael sigma.md.huji.ac.il)
)Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: Fw: Virus Alert]]
)
) Return-Path: Received: from mx13.netvision.net.il (mx13.netvision.net.il
)[194.90.1.56]) by mail.netvision.net.il (8.9.0.Beta5/8.8.6) with SMTP id
)GAA04337 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:55:34 +0200 (IST) Received: (qmail 13992
)invoked from network); 6 Nov 1998 04:55:33 -0000 Received: from
)host3-64.mishkei.org.il (HELO mail.mishkei.org.il) (62.0.64.3) by
)mx13.netvision.net.il with SMTP; 6 Nov 1998 04:55:33 -0000 Received: from
)sharmakim.org.il (host12-69.mishkei.org.il [62.0.69.12]) by
)mail.mishkei.org.il (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA21473; Fri, 6 Nov 1998
)07:54:33 +0200 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 06:54:41 +0200 From:
)"Julio M. Zeltser" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I)
)X-Accept-Language: pt-BR MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Adi Eshed , Aida ,
)Amit Y , AnatS , Antonio Bittencourt , Bernardo Miodovnik ,
) BORIS NAJMAN , Daniel Coslovsky , David Groshar ,
) Edwi Kauffmann , Eldad , Eric Ceresnie , Eric Wizenberg ,
) Ethel Kauffmann , Golde Zeltser , Edwi Kauffmann ,
)Ethel Kauffmann , Fernando London , Marcelo ,
)Fernando London , Golde Zeltser , HillaryLuben , Holguer ,
) Ilan Goldman , ilyse , Isaac Fain , Jacques
)Guershman , Jane , "Jason A. Miller" , jeremy , Jill , Jose
)Rui Antunes , julieG , JulieG , Tamara , Daniel
)Coslovsky , Bernardo Miodovnik , Ilan Goldman ,
)Isaac Fain , Jacques Guershman , David Groshar ,
)BORIS NAJMAN , Jose Rui Antunes , Mauro Bloch , Karen
)Rosental , lauren , Layne , Liciano Rachman , Lilia
), Lorne Lubin , Marcelo , Mauro Bloch , mike , mindy ,
) ilyse , Amit Y , AnatS , HillaryLuben , Nelly Kruczan ,
)Noam S , Noam Z , Paz , "R.Danny" , RABIWEISS ,
)rachel L , Rachel T , Rozalia , Sam , shaam , ShellyK ,
) Shiri , Steve , Tal Avrahami , Tamara , Tobye ,
)Zack Subject: [Fwd: Fw: Virus Alert] Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
)boundary="------------7FA262D4746CDBAC4F6CEA94" Return-Path: Received:
)from pa03.conex.com.br (pa03.conex.com.br [200.248.100.3]) by
)mail.mishkei.org.il (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA31366 for ; Fri, 6 Nov
)1998 03:27:27 +0200 Received: from default (slras0503.conex.com.br
)[200.248.93.122]) by pa03.conex.com.br (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id
)WAA21998; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:24:50 -0200 From: "Jacques Gerchman" To:
)"Luiz Gerchman - Gramado" Subject: Fw: Virus Alert Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998
)22:19:09 -0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type:
)multipart/alternative;
) boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0047_01BE090B.07004120" X-Priority: 3
)X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
)X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 X-Mozilla-Status2:
)00000000 From Jacques to friends, Date: Terça-feira, 3 de
)Novembro de 1998 18:52
)
) ) PLEASE BE VERY CAREFUL.
))"" It
)) will erase everything on your hard drive. Forward this letter out to
)) as many people as you can. This is a new, very malicious virus and not
)) many people know about it. This information was announced yesterday
)) morning from Microsoft, please pass this along to everyone in your
)) address book so that this may be stopped.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n978.2 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: Fw: Virus Alert]]
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:37:53 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
References: (199811122331.PAA14245 lists1.best.com)
I assume this is a mistake? Don't EVER believe ANYTHING you get as a forward. (grin)
e
PS especially if it involves Bill Gates, a disability or $$$.
cara wrote:
) )Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 22:17:04 +0200
) )From: adi eshed (aditour netvision.net.il)
) )X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I)
) )To: LaÈrcio (mpir ronam.com.br),
) ) Andre Tenenbaum (tenenba ibm.net), arnon (arnonj35 green.co.il),
) ) dadon amos (daelic internet-zahav.net),
) ) David Rosenthal (drosen netpe.com.br),
) ) "eskenazi mex1.uninet.net.mx" (eskenazi mex1.uninet.net.mx),
) ) esti (estir iil.intel.com), Gilad Moll (mollg bigfoot.com),
) ) Hanoch/Cara (cara internet-zahav.net), iafa (iafa nutecnet.com.br),
) ) levinbuk (levinbuk ruralrj.com.br),
) ) Motti Pearl (mpearl ilccm1.iil.intel.com),
) ) Paulo Ankier (pcankier rocketmail.com),
) ) Roberto/Esther (robest internet-zahav.net),
) ) shiedu-sp (shiedu sol.com.br), Yael Altuvia
) (yael sigma.md.huji.ac.il)
) )Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: Fw: Virus Alert]]
) )
) ) Return-Path: Received: from mx13.netvision.net.il (mx13.netvision.net.il
) )[194.90.1.56]) by mail.netvision.net.il (8.9.0.Beta5/8.8.6) with SMTP id
) )GAA04337 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:55:34 +0200 (IST) Received: (qmail 13992
) )invoked from network); 6 Nov 1998 04:55:33 -0000 Received: from
) )host3-64.mishkei.org.il (HELO mail.mishkei.org.il) (62.0.64.3) by
) )mx13.netvision.net.il with SMTP; 6 Nov 1998 04:55:33 -0000 Received: from
) )sharmakim.org.il (host12-69.mishkei.org.il [62.0.69.12]) by
) )mail.mishkei.org.il (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA21473; Fri, 6 Nov 1998
) )07:54:33 +0200 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 06:54:41 +0200 From:
) )"Julio M. Zeltser" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I)
) )X-Accept-Language: pt-BR MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Adi Eshed , Aida ,
) )Amit Y , AnatS , Antonio Bittencourt , Bernardo Miodovnik ,
) ) BORIS NAJMAN , Daniel Coslovsky , David Groshar ,
) ) Edwi Kauffmann , Eldad , Eric Ceresnie , Eric Wizenberg ,
) ) Ethel Kauffmann , Golde Zeltser , Edwi Kauffmann ,
) )Ethel Kauffmann , Fernando London , Marcelo ,
) )Fernando London , Golde Zeltser , HillaryLuben , Holguer ,
) ) Ilan Goldman , ilyse , Isaac Fain , Jacques
) )Guershman , Jane , "Jason A. Miller" , jeremy , Jill , Jose
) )Rui Antunes , julieG , JulieG , Tamara , Daniel
) )Coslovsky , Bernardo Miodovnik , Ilan Goldman ,
) )Isaac Fain , Jacques Guershman , David Groshar ,
) )BORIS NAJMAN , Jose Rui Antunes , Mauro Bloch , Karen
) )Rosental , lauren , Layne , Liciano Rachman , Lilia
) ), Lorne Lubin , Marcelo , Mauro Bloch , mike , mindy ,
) ) ilyse , Amit Y , AnatS , HillaryLuben , Nelly Kruczan ,
) )Noam S , Noam Z , Paz , "R.Danny" , RABIWEISS ,
) )rachel L , Rachel T , Rozalia , Sam , shaam , ShellyK ,
) ) Shiri , Steve , Tal Avrahami , Tamara , Tobye ,
) )Zack Subject: [Fwd: Fw: Virus Alert] Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
) )boundary="------------7FA262D4746CDBAC4F6CEA94" Return-Path: Received:
) )from pa03.conex.com.br (pa03.conex.com.br [200.248.100.3]) by
) )mail.mishkei.org.il (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA31366 for ; Fri, 6 Nov
) )1998 03:27:27 +0200 Received: from default (slras0503.conex.com.br
) )[200.248.93.122]) by pa03.conex.com.br (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id
) )WAA21998; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:24:50 -0200 From: "Jacques Gerchman" To:
) )"Luiz Gerchman - Gramado" Subject: Fw: Virus Alert Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998
) )22:19:09 -0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type:
) )multipart/alternative;
) ) boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0047_01BE090B.07004120" X-Priority: 3
) )X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
) )X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 X-Mozilla-Status2:
) )00000000 From Jacques to friends, Date: Terça-feira, 3 de
) )Novembro de 1998 18:52
) )
) ) ) PLEASE BE VERY CAREFUL.
) ))"" It
) )) will erase everything on your hard drive. Forward this letter out to
) )) as many people as you can. This is a new, very malicious virus and not
) )) many people know about it. This information was announced yesterday
) )) morning from Microsoft, please pass this along to everyone in your
) )) address book so that this may be stopped.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n978.3 ---------------
From: Kathy (spike netshel.net)
Subject: Critical Thinking
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 18:10:13 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199811122010.MAA11620 lists1.best.com)
Ezra posted:
) ) ) ALEX SALKEVER writes from HONOLULU
Followed by a long article on the fictional hectic life of a child
subjected to too much/too soon formalized education.
I replied:
) ) Critical thinking does not equate, necessarily, with formal education.
Ezra responded:
) Did I say that? Did anyone say that. Proof of causation, ontologically speaking, is impossible. Of course it is a favorite method for building straw men. Or castles in the sky.
Please accept my apology for misunderstanding the motivation for your
post. I truly was not looking to build straw men. Touchy, aren't we? I
thought you were responding to the critical thinking thread because you
preceded the article with:
) Perhaps Dan was write about the turning age (of learning critical thinking) being around 6 or 7. I found this on my usual internet news binges. Anyone know who this guy is? If I had more time I would track down the studies, but I thought someone on this list might know something and save me some time.
The rest of your post on this matter was a bit rambling. However, I
disagree that critical thinking, necessarily, has an element of
skepticism. It may or may not. Critical thinking simply refers to
examining new information, asking more questions about it, maybe testing
the knowledge if appropriate and/or applying the new information to
other uses. For example: we use eggs to make peanut butter cookies -
maybe we should use eggs to make chocolate chip cookies. What happens if
we don't use eggs?
I don't believe metacognition leads to paranoid schizophrenia. Likely,
this is more a personal experience than one that could be applied
universally. Maybe a little critical thinking on this issue would be
useful.
Critically, as always, yours
Kathy
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n978 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n979 --------------
001 - SINGERCARP aol.com - survey on WS entering physical adolencence later
002 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Max's Birthday verse
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n979.1 ---------------
From: SINGERCARP aol.com
Subject: survey on WS entering physical adolencence later
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 17:34:40 EST
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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To all interested,
Ms. Matthiolius sent me the survey of her late husband. Due to the blurry
original scanning unfortunately did not create results good enough to be sent.
I therefore recommend you look up the English version:
Matthiolus H, Schuh C: Reversal and Acceleration Trends in Waldorf Schools.
In: Schaefer K E, Stave U, Blankenburg W (ed): A New Image of Man in Medicine,
vol III: Individuation Process and Biographical Aspects of Disease pp 83-101.
New York: Futura Publishing Company (295 Main Street, P.O.Box 298, Mount
Kisco, New York 10549) 1979.
The first two volumes in the series were:
Vol I: Toward a Man-centered Medical Science, publ 1977, same publ and Vol II:
Basis of an Individual Physiology, to me unnown year, probably same publ.
The authors of the work under discussion:
- Hanno Matthiolus, M.D., came from the Research Institute, League of
Waldorf Schools, Stuttgart, Germany
- Christa Schuh, M.D., same institute
The editors:
- Karl E Schaefer, M.D., was Director, Biomedical Sciences Department,
SMRL, Groton, Connecticut; Visiting Professor Environmental Physiology,
Brown University, Providence, Rhode island,
- Ute Stave, M.D., Ass Professor, Mailman Center and Department of
Pediatrics, University of Miami, Medical School
- Wolfgang Blankenburg, M.D. Professor, Chairman Department of Psychiatry,
University of Bremen
Some other contributors on the themes "Limits in the use of conventional
scientific methods in biology and medicine. The need for a man-centered
physiological science", "Basic concepts related to a man-centered science",
"Individuation process", "Phases of human life" and "Basic concepts related to
a man-centered science" (vol I and II) were:
- Claus B Bahnson, Ph.D., Director, Behavioral Sciences Department,
Eastern Pennsylvania Psychiatric Institute and Professor of Psychiatry,
Jefferson Medical College, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
- Ludwig von Bertalanffy, Ph.D, late Professor, State University of New York,
Buffalo, NY (posthumous paper)
- Herbert Hensel, M.D., Professor, Chairman Department of physiology,
University of Marburg, Germany
- Walter Heitler, Ph.D., Professor, Chairman Deparment of Physics,
University of Z¸rich, Switzerland
- Wolfgang Jacob, M.D., Professor, Department of Pathology, University of
Heidelberg, Germany
- Bernhard Lievegoed, M.D., Professor, Department of Social Pedagogy,
University of Rotterdam, Holland
- Raymond Moore, Ph.D., Professor, Andrews University, Berrian Springs,
Michigan
- Paul Weiss, Ph.D., Professor Emeritus, Biology. The Rockefeller University,
N.Y., N.Y.
- Joseph Weizenbaum, Ph.D., Professor of Computer Sciences, MIT, Boston, Mass
If you are interested in the German version please send me your mailing
address and I will send you a copy by Air Mail.
Tom Singer-Carpenter
Switzerland/Germany
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n979.2 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Max's Birthday verse
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 23:36:35 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Cleaning out a drawer, I came across Max's B-Day card from his public
Waldorf teacher, Ms. Kinghorn. It's about as anthroposophical as you can
get, yet I like the poem.
Many the stars that stand
Over the earth,
And the days as the years go by.
But one star over the place of my birth,
One hour when first was I.
Looked for the light where the new child lay
Listened and heard the sign,
And the great sun rose on my life's first day,
And the glory of the earth was mine.
Debra
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n979 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n980 --------------
001 - Robert Tolz (rtolz cosmow - Re: Max's Birthday verse
002 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
003 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
004 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
005 - BruceyJ aol.com - Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
006 - "Jeff Horseman" (jthorse - Re: Waldorf Questions
007 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
008 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Waldorf Questions (BIO)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n980.1 ---------------
From: Robert Tolz (rtolz cosmoweb.net)
Subject: Re: Max's Birthday verse
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 21:49:53 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199811152310.PAA00410 lists1.best.com)
Debra wrote:
)
) Cleaning out a drawer, I came across Max's B-Day card from his public
) Waldorf teacher, Ms. Kinghorn. It's about as anthroposophical as you can
) get, yet I like the poem.
)
[snip]
) And the great sun rose on my life's first day,
) And the glory of the earth was mine.
It's a lovely poem. What makes it anthroposophical? It seems to me to
express something pretty universal and not a specific philosophy.
Bob
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n980.2 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 02:35:56 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Robert Tolz, you asked Herman:
) Q4: Please evaluate the following statement: "Assuming for the sake
)of argument that Steiner had anti-Semitic tendencies, neither he nor
)anthroposophy nor Waldorf education was the cause of anti-Semitism or
)the rise of the Nazis and Hitler." ___ True ___ False
True. But this doesn't get Steiner off the hook for encouraging
anti-semitism. He wasn't "the cause," but he helped.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n980.3 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 02:40:10 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
References: (199811012019.MAA21875 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199811021523.HAA09613 lists1.best.com)
Robert Tolz, you asked Herman on Nov. 2 (sorry I'm so far behind),
) Q3: During the period from the time the Nazis came to power
)until the end of WWII, what actions, if any, did the Nazis take with
)respect to Steiner, anthroposophy and the Waldorf schools?
Steiner must have been considered an enemy of the Nazi party, having been
personally denounced by Hitler in the press in March, 1921, 12 years before
they came into power. ["j¸dische Methode zur Zerst–rung der normalen
Geistesverfassung der V–lker" (Jewish (!) method to destroy the normal
spiritual state of the people). (Flesburger Hefte, vol. 32, "Anthroposophen
und Nationalsozialismus", p. 70), Peter Schwab 9/9/96.]
Has anyone any other quote from Hitler re Steiner?
May 15, 1922, Steiner was roughed up after a lecture in Munich and fled the
country.
The following is mostly summarized from PLANS unpublished translation of
Leschinsky [Leschinsky, Achim. "Waldorfschulen im Nationalsozialismus."
Neue Sammlung Vol. 13 (1983), p. 255.]
The Nazis took over in 1933. Waldorf schools dismissed Jewish teachers by
spring of 1934 "to ensure the continued existence of the schools"
[Leschinsky p. 10]. A large proportion of the Waldorf teachers joined the
Nazi teachers union. It seemed at first that the Waldorf schools might be
able to co-exist with the Nazi government.
The Stuttgart school was not allowed to open a new class in the spring of
1934 due to the influence of a Professor Hauer of Tubingen, who opposed
Steiner.
Official objections to Waldorf schools around 1934 included: 1) They were
producing "hyper-spiritualized, weak, effeminate aesthetes," 2) Academic
standards were too low and too much time was taken up by eurythmy and
foreign languages, 3) The faculty was unprofessional, and 4) The world view
of Anthroposophy permeated the curriculum and the school environment. This
was perceived as insufficiently supportive of racial superiority and
nationalism.
It's interesting to note that, except for the foreign languages and the
race issue, these are the same arguments PLANS is making today. On race, it
is quite reasonable to hold that the philosophy was not racist enough for
the Nazis, and yet is too racist for present-day standards.
A Union of Waldorf Schools was formed to defend the system. In 1934 and
again in 1935 Rudolph Hess, Deputy Fuhrer and an occultist, intervened in
favor of the Waldorf schools.
The Anthroposophical Society was banned in 1935 [exchange of letters
between Gestapo and Reichs Ministry of Education between October and
December of 1935 (File 7, pp. 177, 178, 273)] [Leschinsky].
New admissions to all private schools (aimed mainly at Catholic schools)
were banned beginning with the school year 1936-37, though implementation
at the Waldorf schools was delayed due to the abovementioned intervention
of Hess.
"In November 1937, an inspection of Waldorf schools was carried out by a
commission made up of representatives of the Party Chancellory, the
Ministry of Education, Rosenberg's office, and the National Socialist
Teachers' Union, thus bringing the situation to a head. (Letter from Reichs
Ministry of Education to Administerial Presidents of the affected areas
dated November 1, 1937 [files 5 and 10]. As early as February, 1938, a
decision was made to retain some Waldorf schools as experimental schools
under reliable administration and based upon National Socialist principles.
The intent was to establish whether these principles of education, not to
mention their practical successes, were compatible with the philosophy of
the new German empire" [Leschinsky, trans. p. 20]
In March, 1938 the Stuttgart school was closed by regional authorities. The
schools' association fragmented. Breslau and Kassel closed at Easter, 1939.
Dresden, Hamburg-Wandsbek and Hannover continued as experimental schools in
1939. The Nazi argument in favor of Waldorf schools had four points:
1) That Anthroposophy and Waldorf education grew from "'the wellspring of
true German thinking,' from the mystical through to the world of
imagination of Goethe and the Romanticists, thus distinguishing itself by
its very nature from Western influences."
2) That based on his 1915 pamphlet "Wartime Reflections" which identified
themes closely identified with Naziism, Steiner was the "Prophet of the
Necessary Self-Defense and the Mission of the German People".
3) That Naziism and Anthroposophy were both anti-materialistic and
anti-Marxist.
4) That Waldorf schools supported Naziism by virtue of an overall
anti-individualistic orientation. "If the Waldorf schools can 'guarantee'
to produce a citizenry which can be relied upon to place itself at the
disposal of the nation without reservations, then this is attributable only
to the schools' consistent ability to reject rationalism and
intellectualism." This is manifested through the inclusion of music and
practical subjects in the curriculum, but "it is rather more a case of the
specific method of instruction itself which engages students beyond the
realm of the 'abstract-intellectual', thus exerting a direct influence upon
the childrens' will. This last argument appears to have proven particularly
effective in convincing state educational authorities that one result of
dismantling the Rudolf Steiner Schools would be the loss of institutions
which otherwise would have served as important model facilities..." (for
mind control).
The Hannover school closed on Easter 1940, largely due to economic
problems. Wandsbek closed in 1940 when teachers were drafted. Dresden
closed in 1941 after Hess' flight to England enraged Hitler, resulting in a
purge of Nazi occultists. Several teachers were imprisoned for
Anthroposophical activities.
In Waldorf, the story has been simplified: "The first thing Hitler did
regarding schools when he took over was to close every Waldorf school in
Germany and other parts of Europe he occupied. They were a threat to his
brain-washing, conformity mentality." [Linda Sharp, letter to Anchorage
Council of PTA's, December 20, 1993.]
You see from the above history how this is a self-serving myth. In fact,
the brain-washing character of Waldorf pedagogy was one of the arguments
used by the Nazis who favored it.
-Dan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n980.4 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 09:25:32 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199811161043.CAA22020 lists1.best.com)
I sincerely hope there are people on this list (the preponderance) who see Dan's and others attempts here for the truly base political purposes they are trying to serve. Perhaps in the spirit of the topic being debated, I should ask why so many on this list (the preponderance) are _remaining silent_ and essentially granting a tacit approval to this process. I wonder how such an inquiry would have progressed in 1934?
e
Dan Dugan wrote:
) Robert Tolz, you asked Herman:
)
) ) Q4: Please evaluate the following statement: "Assuming for the sake
) )of argument that Steiner had anti-Semitic tendencies, neither he nor
) )anthroposophy nor Waldorf education was the cause of anti-Semitism or
) )the rise of the Nazis and Hitler." ___ True ___ False
)
) True. But this doesn't get Steiner off the hook for encouraging
) anti-semitism. He wasn't "the cause," but he helped.
)
) -Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n980.5 ---------------
From: BruceyJ aol.com
Subject: Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 12:50:20 EST
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In einer eMail vom 16.11.98 11:53:21 MEZ, schreiben Sie:
((
) Q4: Please evaluate the following statement: "Assuming for the sake
)of argument that Steiner had anti-Semitic tendencies, neither he nor
)anthroposophy nor Waldorf education was the cause of anti-Semitism or
)the rise of the Nazis and Hitler." ___ True ___ False
True. But this doesn't get Steiner off the hook for encouraging
anti-semitism. He wasn't "the cause," but he helped.
-Dan Dugan
))
My play rehearsal is cancelled tonight so I will briefly come out of my shell
again....
I am sure that most people who had a following of some sort who were alive
when Steiner was could be accused of helping the anit-semitic cause. Those
same people could also be accused, from people who are as vehemently for anti-
semitism as Dan is anti, of supporting the other side. Whether one likes it or
not almost every action one takes can be seen as political by persons wishing
to do so, as often as not from persons with diametrically opposing views.
Steiner died long ago. The people killed in WWII cannot be brought back to
life, even by you Dan! The anthroposophists who now carry the flag do not
attend political rallies to reelect their leaders every year, they do not
chuck their leaders out because of issues like admitting or not admitting that
Steiner made mistakes. I do not believe he did, but that is my personal
opinion.
In pre-war Germany it looked very much like Hitler and the Nazis would become
the ruling party, as they did. It was a question for the teachers in the
schools at that time to what extent they should continue to exist under
naziism, and at what cost. They had pupils who, they believed, were
benefitting immensely from the education. Unless they gave in to certain
requests they would have to close. Ultimately they all did, but not without a
struggle. With hindsight many would say that they should not have even
considered doing deals with the Nazis, but then hindsight, as you know Dan,
has very helpful qualities. I would like to know what you would have done,
faced with such a situation.
I do not, to reiterate, believe that Steiner made mistakes. I fail to see
where you are trying to go with this particular train of thought.
I will return to the sidelines and await a detailed criticism of each word
that I have written! It will take more than Dan Dugan (and PLANS) to change my
views!
Bruce
PS I was involved in an attempt to get a government sponsored waldorf school
opened in England, but that is another story!
PPS I have read the other email from you Dan, but felt more inclined to
respond to this one. The teachers who had to stop teaching in Dresden, and
could not start again in the then DDR, founded the school where I now teach.
It celebrates its 50th Birthday next year.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n980.6 ---------------
From: "Jeff Horseman" (jthorse a-znet.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf Questions
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:31:45 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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Thanx for your response. Could you just provide me with a little background info on yourself (occupation, that sort of thing)?
Keep in mind that this is a journalism class and I am a "reporter-in-training." While I have no plans presently to publish my story, that could change. Please let me know if you have any questions or concerns.
Sincerely,
Jeff Horseman
***************************
The pure and simple truth is rarely pure and never simple.
--Oscar Wilde
I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts
--Will Rogers
----------
)From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
)To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
)Subject: Re: Waldorf Questions
)Date: Thu, Nov 12, 1998, 11:35 AM
)
)For the most part, I think a relatively balanced response from Dan. Two things.
) Firstly, anthros are NOT mormons, nor are they anything LIKE mormons and the implication is a politically motivated one. There is no tithing, there are no Salamander's, no wirding and no bigamy (the list of what they don't have in common could easily cause a buffer overflow, so I'll stop now). At least he didn't compare anthros to Scientologists (but I'm sure a deconstructed analysis would reveal why).
) Secondly, I think you are throwing the baby out with your dirty laundry (mixing metaphors is just super). If I remember correctly, usually you advocate keeping the nice bits of WE and tossing the rest (ie keep art, sans color wheels and wet on wet, dump the rests). Why the fascism all of a sudden?
)live long and prosper.
)e
)
)
)Dan Dugan wrote:
)
)) yadda yadda yadda.
))
)) -Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n980.7 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 13:13:51 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199811161043.CAA22020 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199811161733.JAA27619 lists1.best.com)
) I sincerely hope there are people on this list (the preponderance) who
)see Dan's and others attempts here for the truly base political purposes
)they are trying to serve. Perhaps in the spirit of the topic being
)debated, I should ask why so many on this list (the preponderance) are
)_remaining silent_ and essentially granting a tacit approval to this
)process. I wonder how such an inquiry would have progressed in 1934?
) e
)
Beeman, you're not an intellectual heavyweight -- you're turning into a
joke.
When do you start turning apoplectic purple and foaming at the mouth and
calling for your posse to get the ropes?
Your broad brush of unspecific vilification is typical of the
`circle-the-wagons' mentality of the SWA people I've known personally, and
those who have long been absolutely unreconstrucable on this list, no
matter what anyone says.
Please define the "truly base political purposes" of Dugan (and presumably
me and any others who criticise Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophy).
And what does your last sentence, above, mean?
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
)Dan Dugan wrote:
)
)) Robert Tolz, you asked Herman:
))
)) ) Q4: Please evaluate the following statement: "Assuming for the
))sake
)) )of argument that Steiner had anti-Semitic tendencies, neither he nor
)) )anthroposophy nor Waldorf education was the cause of anti-Semitism or
)) )the rise of the Nazis and Hitler." ___ True ___ False
))
)) True. But this doesn't get Steiner off the hook for encouraging
)) anti-semitism. He wasn't "the cause," but he helped.
))
)) -Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n980.8 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Waldorf Questions (BIO)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 18:45:45 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199811162231.OAA17554 lists1.best.com)
Name: Ezra Beeman
Age: 24
Occupation: Economist/IT Manager
Hovel: Oakland, CA
Education:
12 Years WE Sacramento
4 Years Claremont McKenna College
B.A.s Economics and Philosophy, Honors in Philosophy
Work Experience:
Economist(Oil)/IT Manager(information systems) for largest and oldest economic litigation consultant in Oregon.
Economist(Power)/IT Manager(information systems) of foremost energy consulting firm.
Hobbies:
Books, Computers, Cars, Guns, Art.
Relevant WE cookies:
Astrid Schmitt was my main lesson teacher (12 years). Her father studied under RS. Betty Staley was my HS sponsor (along with her husband, Jim Staley).
My mother is a registered nurse midwife (one of the first graduating from the SFO school), she was educated at Bryn Mawr and then Colombia. Her father was born in Germany and was a Jew, her mother was born here and was a Jew. My father is an organic farmer (possibly the first in California, not counting indigenous peoples), with a BS in Engineering from Berkeley. He is a decorated Vietnam veteran. He is from
third generation Catholics. My father has read a bit of RS, my mother has not. Neither are anthros.
I think that about does it; I've tried to cover all the relevant cards on the table. If you have any further questions, please email them to me in private (unless it seems of public interest).
e
Jeff Horseman wrote:
) Thanx for your response. Could you just provide me with a little background info on yourself (occupation, that sort of thing)?
)
) Keep in mind that this is a journalism class and I am a "reporter-in-training." While I have no plans presently to publish my story, that could change. Please let me know if you have any questions or concerns.
)
) Sincerely,
) Jeff Horseman
) ***************************
) The pure and simple truth is rarely pure and never simple.
) --Oscar Wilde
)
) I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts
) --Will Rogers
)
) ----------
) )From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
) )To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
) )Subject: Re: Waldorf Questions
) )Date: Thu, Nov 12, 1998, 11:35 AM
) )
)
) )For the most part, I think a relatively balanced response from Dan. Two things.
) ) Firstly, anthros are NOT mormons, nor are they anything LIKE mormons and the implication is a politically motivated one. There is no tithing, there are no Salamander's, no wirding and no bigamy (the list of what they don't have in common could easily cause a buffer overflow, so I'll stop now). At least he didn't compare anthros to Scientologists (but I'm sure a deconstructed analysis would reveal why).
) ) Secondly, I think you are throwing the baby out with your dirty laundry (mixing metaphors is just super). If I remember correctly, usually you advocate keeping the nice bits of WE and tossing the rest (ie keep art, sans color wheels and wet on wet, dump the rests). Why the fascism all of a sudden?
) )live long and prosper.
) )e
) )
) )
) )Dan Dugan wrote:
) )
) )) yadda yadda yadda.
) ))
) )) -Dan Dugan
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n980 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n981 --------------
001 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
002 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
003 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Reply to Nazi's Enemy #1
004 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: Reply to Nazi's Enemy #1
005 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Reply to Nazi's Enemy #1
006 - Robert Tolz (rtolz cosmow - Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n980
007 - Kevin Houston (khouston o - Re: Reply to Anonymous
008 - David McKay (mckay oro.ne - Re: Reply to Nazi's Enemy #1
009 - ckzfrey (ckzfrey ix.netco - Dugan's fascination with Nazis
010 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Reply to Anonymous
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n981.1 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 00:45:21 -0800
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)Dan Dugan wrote:
)) When will Anthroposophy admit some level of error
)) in this regard and pull the organization back from the nuttiness?
And Robert Tolz replied,
) If there is any nuttiness in anthroposophy, you will not find me to be
)a supporter of it. Is it your sense of "fair play" and "balance" that
)one should fight perceived nuttiness with contrasting nuttiness of one's
)own? Or does the fact that you believe yourself to be "right" and they
)to be "wrong" give you permission to do something that they are not
)allowed to do? I see your insistence on Steiner and anthroposophy as
)being connected to Nazism as nothing more than hate-mongering.
Dear Robert,
At my son's Waldorf school I looked in a book on the "bookstore" shelf and
found:
"If the blonds and blue-eyed people die out, the human race will become
increasingly dense if men do not arrive at a form of intelligence that is
independent of blondness. Blond hair actually bestows intelligence. ... It
is indeed true that the more the fair individuals die out the more will the
instinctive wisdom of humans vanish." [Steiner, 1922, HI-1, p. 86]
Further research proved this was not an isolated incident. The connection
with Nazi philosophy is self-evident. Why was 1920's German racism being
promoted in San Francisco in 1988? Am I "nutty" to point it out? Let the
reader decide.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n981.2 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 01:15:49 -0800
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Stephen Tonkin, you said,
)However, I think it needs to be acknowledged that people *have* been
)hurt by inappropriate actions by Waldorf school teachers, either
)individually or en masse. My take is that 99% of the time this is
)through ignorance or incompetence, not intent. My life experience
)suggests that the causing of such hurt is not a unique quality of
)Waldorf schools.
I agree entirely. I have never accused Waldorf schools of intending to do
harm, or said that other schools were harmless! It's that the ignorance and
incompetence are built into the system, as they were in the evangelical
Christian schools my other two sons attended.
)As for the racism/Nazi card, like Michael I think it is overplayed.
)Sure, some anthropops have had some pretty appalling racist views; most
)don't. The same can be said for many (most? all?) groups in society.
)Some people may have latched onto some of Steiner's more "difficult to
)understand" pronouncements as support for views they already held, but
)to blame Steiner for the holocaust is not only irrational, it also has
)two other effects.
)
)Firstly, it has the effect of making people who realise how ridiculous
)the claim is throw out the rest of the criticisms -- like Michael's
)history with his children's Waldorf schooling. It weakens legitimate
)criticisms.
If you read your Steiner, how can you say the claim is "ridiculous"?
)Secondly, and this is the one I more strongly object to, by giving
)people a false peg to hang the causes of the holocaust upon, it deflects
)from examining the true causes of such appalling inhuman acts, making it
)more likely that they will recur. One might as well lay the cause of the
)holocaust on Edison and Tesla, since Siemens used slave labour from
)Aushwitz to make devices invented by Edison and Tesla, thereby creating
)a "market" for concentration camp slaves. Ridiculous? Yes, it is, but no
)more so than blaming Steiner or Blavatsky or esoteric spiritual beliefs
)in general.
I agree that it is very important to study the causes of the holocaust.
Currently the popular image of the Nazis is one of cruel totalitarians
crushing everyone in their path. What this true but incomplete image
neglects to teach is how idealistic and spiritual the Nazi movement was.
Philosophers like Steiner raised anti-semitism up from the mud of common
prejudice to high-sounding philosophical justifications. I don't believe
the holocaust would have happened without Hitler, but many others prepared
the soil.
)It is this latter reason which causes the likes of Herman de Tollenaere
)to raise my hackles. By putting an apparent scholarly sheen on these
)claims of links between the Nazis and Steiner, etc., he deflects
)attention from what is really needed: research into how it is that whole
)sections of humanity can come to see others sections as sub-human, can
)fail to recognise the essential humanity in another person. The Jews
)have been at the receiving end of this in Europe, for centuries before
)any of the "pegs" de Tollenaere likes to hang it on existed. Similarly,
)genocidal acts have occurred for millennia and still occur today.
Yes, but I disagree with you that studying the racist philosophers of the
day like Steiner "deflects attention from what is really needed."
Idealistic presentations of prejudice are one very good reason why "whole
sections of humanity can come to see other sections as sub-human." For a
parallel example, at the same time Steiner was lecturing, college
professors in the U.S. were developing the pseudoscience of eugenics. They,
too, bear responsibility for laying the foundations of the holocaust.
(snip)
)The point I am trying to illustrate is that racism, even to the extent
)of viewing other people as sub-human, can exist just below the surface
)in people who are otherwise perfectly decent human beings. I suggest
)that what the likes of Hitler did was to cynically exploit, on a far
)greater scale than had been attempted before, something that *already*
)exists within people and gave it a focus, in fact, gave it various foci.
)He had, it seems, various disorders in his own psychology which decided
)the foci he chose, but however unpalatable it may be to some people, the
)persecution in Europe of Jews, gypsies, the mentally ill, homosexuals,
)etc. had ample historical precedent stretching back for centuries, and
)it was relatively easy for people to justify it to themselves. If we
)pretend otherwise by trying to find convenient pegs external to
)ourselves, we are almost certainly paving the way for a repetition.
I agree.
)This is getting off-topic for this list but, in the context of what has
)been said already and of PLAN's playing of the "racist card", I think it
)needed saying.
Thanks for the discussion.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n981.3 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Reply to Nazi's Enemy #1
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 01:33:56 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
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[The following has been received as an anonymous posting. -dD-]
To Bruce, Ezra, et al:
Those of us who are silent on the list are so for many reasons. Mine is
because my family has been on the recieving end of slander and has also
experienced attempts from the local Waldorfians to marginalize our
business. The local Waldorf school(s) are in a very small town. Our
business competes with several run by Waldorf parents/friends of Waldorf.
We are also active in keeping Waldorf out of the tax coffers via Charter
schools and we must do this discreetly in order to not unduly alarm the
Waldorf parents active in the Charter effort or to bring more annoyances
upon ourselves.
Those on the Board of PLANS with whom I am familiar are not only aware of PLANS
feelings and assertions (backed by evidence we deem credible), but we share
those concerns.
Specifically to Ezra: I am astonished that you link "metacognition" with
paranoid schizophrenia. Are you using a specifically Steinarian definition
of "metacognition"? Pedagogically, it is defined as thinking about what &
how one is thinking and learning. Paranoia is the building of internally
consistent systems that have little, slight, or no relation to reality.
Schizophrenia is a disease caused by imbalances of neurotransmitters.
Paranoia may be part of schizophrenia. Schizophrenia is separate from
paranoia. The phrase,"paranoid schizophrenia", as far as I know, is
out-of-date, medically. However, I do not doubt that 12 years of Waldorf
has altered your cognitive abilities and processes. I see it all the time
in the local Waldorf students.
What is the basis for community reactions to Waldorf in small towns?
We see ourselves as overrun by what are known as "trustafarians":people who
have been given every advantage our society can bestow and who now take
those advantages, in the form of money earned by previous generations and a
wonderful education and use them to "rebel against [our] parents and live
alternatively"(sic, from a local friend of Waldorf). There are political
ramifications to this in the form of control of the local government. There
are cultural ramifications in the form of children raised with typical
laissez-faire Steinerian parenting who by high school age are not only into
drugs, hacking, and promiscuity, but who inform their public school peers
that laws do not have to be obeyed because no one has the right to tell
them how to behave. Our local Waldorf parents tell new parents and
reinforce to old parents that they MUST support the business owners &
professionals whose children attend Waldorf. These free souls allow
themselves to be told how to vote, what to do with their disposable income,
what businesses they themselves can be involved in, which medical
professionals to patronize, how to dress, what to eat, what entertainment
to pursue,how much they should or should not use the Internet. This looks a
lot like mind control to us. We have seen children "corrected" when they
dared to add elements to their wet-in-wet paintings. These kids were
traumatized when the visiting Anthro art teacher told them in front of the
class that their paintings were *wrong*. We are mystified that anyone would
catagorize the Waldorf same-old, same-old paintings as art...our local
rural schools produce much better artists who win prizes thruout the state,
as well as scholarships to prestigious universities.
When the local elementary school is confronted with child molestation
charges within their community, their first response is cover-up. When
confronted with pot-smoking teenagers from the High School (who are doing
so on the elementary school grounds), the administration replies:"What do
you expect that we can do about it?" Local authorities are not allowed in
the school without a signed warrant, if investigating a drug or abuse
problem. No police officer program aimed at safety or drug education is
allowed. One of the local High School teachers is known to be sexually
involved with at least one of his students, has been observed providing
alcohol to 14 & 17 yr-olds and has stated to an adult on whose property the
drinking was taking place:"You don't have to obey these laws".
We all have a life other than being alert to threats to our communities,
our children and American civil society. We resent that we have to take
precious time to protect what we thought was a given: that we are all
American citizens and we must all learn to live together in a peacful and
respectful manner. We do not give a rat's behind what is popular or
dominant in Europe. We are saddened and angry when Waldorf parents unleash
a torrent of Anglo-Saxon epithets in front of 80-yr-old ladies and then
dismiss the concerns of those present with the tired old line that these
women *need* to hear such words. We revere and protect our parents and
grandparents and we shudder that Waldorf is bringing more such barbarians
into our community. We must pay more in school taxes because those Waldorf
students who cannot, will not or are not allowed to remain in Waldorf,
enter public school so ill-educated and ill-socialized that we must provide
learning disabled support for them, in the form of a full time aide per
student. In one failed Charter attempt, the Waldorf students trashed public
buildings. Ex- Waldorf students act out and bring weapons to public school.
We can see from this list that you are all either clueless or disengenuous
as to how you are percieved. We are not indiscriminate haters; we see
Waldorf as the cause of polarization within a formerly unified community.
We respect all religions, but we are wary of exclusive and elitist sects,
cultish or not.
Waldorf says it is child & Christ-centered: pardon us if we see you as
people whose children are inculcated in attitudes that defy what we think
is best for our children. And trust that we do not think "Christology" is
synonomous with the Christian belief system. We do not want you in charge
of our local governments and dipping into our meager tax coffers.
Do as you will: raise people who cannot make change or refuse to do aspects
of work that they "choose not to". Raise a few generations of magically
thinking, non-vaccinated, technologically phobic, non-critically thinking
misfits. But do not think we will turn over to you or your children the
hard won infrastructure generations of poor farmers and tradespeople
managed to accumulate. And do not doubt that we will fight your
infiltration of our communities at every turn. All we are doing is
emulating Paul Revere. That is good solid American patriotism. Our children
must make their way in the world without trust funds or esoteric networking
or associative economics. Yours evidently do not. Fine, as long as you do
not try to fob off on our schools your idiotic cosmology and inadequate
history, science, and math as a superior ethically or educationally.
You may live where you like. Just remember that there is no anonymity in
rural or small town environments. We know a lot more about all of our local
Waldorfians than we'd like or they realize. Living in a fishbowl is not
pleasant. Perhaps you will all decide to go back to the wealthy enclaves
from which you came. We devoutly hope so.
We really do not care what went down in Germany over 70 years ago vis-a-vis
Steiner. We do know that facism can be summed up as "Our way or die". We
see Waldorf and Anthroposophy and Associative Economics and
Anthroposophically Extended Medicine using the tactics of the whisper
campaign, the natural alienation of teens, the need to belong to enforce
the Anthro world view.
And do not cry prejudice because your belief system was attacked by the
Nazis way back when if you are attempting to marginalize anyone who does
not agree with you now. Write to all the Board members, ISP providers,
clients, patients, customers and the IRS for all the good it will do.
Continue to surveil PLANS members homes, call & hang up, follow cars
containing children and make all the obscene & cryptic hand signals you
wish. Do not allow any of us to post to *your* lists on the Internet.
Inform your co-believers that they should avoid all those "negative"
scientific types. We will still stand against any attempt to impose your
beliefs upon or co-opt our communities and our children in every way we
can. Do not think that we are not aware that there is a 4th layer beneath
Anthroposophy's 3 levels of profession of faith, that of the political
will-to-power.
Good luck.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n981.4 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: Reply to Nazi's Enemy #1
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:04:22 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In-Reply-To: (199811170935.BAA24439 lists1.best.com)
)
)When the local elementary school is confronted with child molestation
)charges within their community, their first response is cover-up.
I've heard of this same reaction in two other Waldorf schools, one in
Oregon, another in my neighboring Waldorf community. How sad to hear of a
third. What happened? Was the cover-up successful?
In all fairness, I know of one case where a Waldorf teacher was slandered
with false claims of molestation, arrest and a prison sentence. PLANS was
sent a phoney but real looking newspaper clipping in a poor attempt to
either bait PLANS or spread lies about a Waldorf teacher in another
country. PLANS checks sources, luckily, and the ugly lie was stopped in
it's tracks.
When
)confronted with pot-smoking teenagers from the High School (who are doing
)so on the elementary school grounds), the administration replies:"What do
)you expect that we can do about it?" Local authorities are not allowed in
)the school without a signed warrant, if investigating a drug or abuse
)problem.
When the Grand Jury visited our local public Waldorf school - as part of
their duty of visiting a specified number of public schools each year - the
Waldorf parents demanded an apology. Seems the grand jury didn't read the
parent handbook which clearly stated that spontaneous visits to classrooms
was against the rules. A grand jury member said, "In all the years this
grand jury has existed, we have never witnessed such a reaction."
No police officer program aimed at safety or drug education is
)allowed. One of the local High School teachers is known to be sexually
)involved with at least one of his students, has been observed providing
)alcohol to 14 & 17 yr-olds and has stated to an adult on whose property the
)drinking was taking place:"You don't have to obey these laws".
That seems like extreme behavior. Did this happen in a Waldorf high school?
[snip]
) We must pay more in school taxes because those Waldorf
)students who cannot, will not or are not allowed to remain in Waldorf,
)enter public school so ill-educated and ill-socialized that we must provide
)learning disabled support for them, in the form of a full time aide per
)student.
Waldorf has a similar reputation in my community. Two of my sons [who
transferred out of Waldorf] needed special help to catch up. My oldest son
is still struggling. I blame myself, and have spent a significant amount of
money on private tutoring. I was present during a reading test for my son,
then in sixth grade. When he was asked, "who was George Washington?", he
didn't know. (If only they would have asked him about European or Greek
cultural myths...)
) In one failed Charter attempt, the Waldorf students trashed public
)buildings. Ex- Waldorf students act out and bring weapons to public school.
Luckily we have not heard of this in our community.
)We can see from this list that you are all either clueless or disengenuous
)as to how you are percieved. We are not indiscriminate haters; we see
)Waldorf as the cause of polarization within a formerly unified community.
)We respect all religions, but we are wary of exclusive and elitist sects,
)cultish or not.
) We do not want you in charge
)of our local governments and dipping into our meager tax coffers.
Ditto. The local reaction [from the Waldorf crowd] to PLANS lawsuit against
our local public Waldorf school was outrageous. My phone rang off the hook.
Recently, I heard that PLANS lawsuit has been "taken over by the Chritian
Right" . For the record, PLANS has sole control of our legal battle.
[snip]
)All we are doing is
)emulating Paul Revere. That is good solid American patriotism. Our children
)must make their way in the world without trust funds or esoteric networking
)or associative economics. Yours evidently do not. Fine, as long as you do
)not try to fob off on our schools your idiotic cosmology and inadequate
)history, science, and math as a superior ethically or educationally.
Our public Waldorf school advertised in the local newspaper with, "The best
education money can buy, and it's free." A pretty bold claim for an
educational system based on testimony, with no studies to back up their
claims.
[snip]
)Good luck.
Good luck to us all.
Debra
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n981.5 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Reply to Nazi's Enemy #1
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:28:46 -0800
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I truly wish people on this list subscribed to any notion of responsible speech. All too often it seems people are calling fire in a crowded mailing list, or from behind a pseudonym. I am not saying people should be forced, I am just pointing out what I think is right.
For my part here, I shall answer those bits directed at me; the rest is incontrovertible as it stands.
e
Dan Dugan wrote:
) [The following has been received as an anonymous posting. -dD-]
)
) To Bruce, Ezra, et al:
)
) Specifically to Ezra: I am astonished that you link "metacognition" with
) paranoid schizophrenia. Are you using a specifically Steinarian definition
) of "metacognition"?
I would not know, I have not ever read a RS book and am unfamiliar with more than the most superficial of treatments. I am using it as it is defined.
) Pedagogically, it is defined as thinking about what &
) how one is thinking and learning.
Or what one is doing, or how one is appearing. It is also thinking about thinking, with all the attendant baggage of concepts like self referential statements, Dualism and the Church Turing thesis.
Generally, I do not restrict myself to pedagogical definitions (they are far too limiting).
) Paranoia is the building of internally
) consistent systems that have little, slight, or no relation to reality.
Seems rather clinical to me. What is it like if your paranoid? BTW How can something be internally consistent and bear no relationship to reality? (The mere fact the system is internally consistent makes it as real as ANY physical system, if not more so. The flip side to this is that physical systems of sufficient complexity are necessarily inconsistent. A well know thesis of Kurt Godel, and the foundation of axiomatic mathematics).
My point is that the process of schizophrenia (and yes paranoia is not the same thing, though acute paranoids are often schizophrenic), is one of detachment from reality accompanied usually by haywire metacognition (I am not saying one causes the other, but they seem to have a common ancestor). I base my ideas on what I've read. One of my favorites is about John Forbes Nash (absolutely BRILLIANT mathematician, Nobel Economist, game theorists etc) who became schizophrenic. His metacognition,
the gift allowing him to see beyond what most people see, also drove him into madness. When asked why he listened to the voices telling him space aliens were communicating from the New York Times, he replied that is was because these same voices told him about manifold space. If one doesn''t see any connection between 'voices' and pathological metacognition, then that is a discussion we can have some other time.
Now depending on whether one thinks schizophrenia is biological or not (there is evidence it is precipitated by an intrauterine viral infection), one will draw various conclusions about its nature. I base what I know of its biology on a book entitled the Three Pound Universe.
)
) Schizophrenia is a disease caused by imbalances of neurotransmitters.
Oh yeah? Pretty much everything is caused by an imbalance of neurotransmitter. (If everything were balanced it would probably mean we were experiencing heat death [grin]. Does thinking cause this imbalance, does a virus, or how about DNA?
) Paranoia may be part of schizophrenia. Schizophrenia is separate from
) paranoia.
) The phrase,"paranoid schizophrenia", as far as I know, is
) out-of-date, medically. However, I do not doubt that 12 years of Waldorf
) has altered your cognitive abilities and processes. I see it all the time
) in the local Waldorf students.
I will take it as a compliment, thank you.
The rest of this post is beyond me. Again, I wish actual people, places and things were named so that some manner of informed discussion/exploration might be undertaken. For sunlight is truly the best disinfectant.
e
)
)
) What is the basis for community reactions to Waldorf in small towns?
) We see ourselves as overrun by what are known as "trustafarians":people who
) have been given every advantage our society can bestow and who now take
) those advantages, in the form of money earned by previous generations and a
) wonderful education and use them to "rebel against [our] parents and live
) alternatively"(sic, from a local friend of Waldorf). There are political
) ramifications to this in the form of control of the local government. There
) are cultural ramifications in the form of children raised with typical
) laissez-faire Steinerian parenting who by high school age are not only into
) drugs, hacking, and promiscuity, but who inform their public school peers
) that laws do not have to be obeyed because no one has the right to tell
) them how to behave. Our local Waldorf parents tell new parents and
) reinforce to old parents that they MUST support the business owners &
) professionals whose children attend Waldorf. These free souls allow
) themselves to be told how to vote, what to do with their disposable income,
) what businesses they themselves can be involved in, which medical
) professionals to patronize, how to dress, what to eat, what entertainment
) to pursue,how much they should or should not use the Internet. This looks a
) lot like mind control to us. We have seen children "corrected" when they
) dared to add elements to their wet-in-wet paintings. These kids were
) traumatized when the visiting Anthro art teacher told them in front of the
) class that their paintings were *wrong*. We are mystified that anyone would
) catagorize the Waldorf same-old, same-old paintings as art...our local
) rural schools produce much better artists who win prizes thruout the state,
) as well as scholarships to prestigious universities.
)
) When the local elementary school is confronted with child molestation
) charges within their community, their first response is cover-up. When
) confronted with pot-smoking teenagers from the High School (who are doing
) so on the elementary school grounds), the administration replies:"What do
) you expect that we can do about it?" Local authorities are not allowed in
) the school without a signed warrant, if investigating a drug or abuse
) problem. No police officer program aimed at safety or drug education is
) allowed. One of the local High School teachers is known to be sexually
) involved with at least one of his students, has been observed providing
) alcohol to 14 & 17 yr-olds and has stated to an adult on whose property the
) drinking was taking place:"You don't have to obey these laws".
)
) We all have a life other than being alert to threats to our communities,
) our children and American civil society. We resent that we have to take
) precious time to protect what we thought was a given: that we are all
) American citizens and we must all learn to live together in a peacful and
) respectful manner. We do not give a rat's behind what is popular or
) dominant in Europe. We are saddened and angry when Waldorf parents unleash
) a torrent of Anglo-Saxon epithets in front of 80-yr-old ladies and then
) dismiss the concerns of those present with the tired old line that these
) women *need* to hear such words. We revere and protect our parents and
) grandparents and we shudder that Waldorf is bringing more such barbarians
) into our community. We must pay more in school taxes because those Waldorf
) students who cannot, will not or are not allowed to remain in Waldorf,
) enter public school so ill-educated and ill-socialized that we must provide
) learning disabled support for them, in the form of a full time aide per
) student. In one failed Charter attempt, the Waldorf students trashed public
) buildings. Ex- Waldorf students act out and bring weapons to public school.
) We can see from this list that you are all either clueless or disengenuous
) as to how you are percieved. We are not indiscriminate haters; we see
) Waldorf as the cause of polarization within a formerly unified community.
) We respect all religions, but we are wary of exclusive and elitist sects,
) cultish or not.
)
) Waldorf says it is child & Christ-centered: pardon us if we see you as
) people whose children are inculcated in attitudes that defy what we think
) is best for our children. And trust that we do not think "Christology" is
) synonomous with the Christian belief system. We do not want you in charge
) of our local governments and dipping into our meager tax coffers.
)
) Do as you will: raise people who cannot make change or refuse to do aspects
) of work that they "choose not to". Raise a few generations of magically
) thinking, non-vaccinated, technologically phobic, non-critically thinking
) misfits. But do not think we will turn over to you or your children the
) hard won infrastructure generations of poor farmers and tradespeople
) managed to accumulate. And do not doubt that we will fight your
) infiltration of our communities at every turn. All we are doing is
) emulating Paul Revere. That is good solid American patriotism. Our children
) must make their way in the world without trust funds or esoteric networking
) or associative economics. Yours evidently do not. Fine, as long as you do
) not try to fob off on our schools your idiotic cosmology and inadequate
) history, science, and math as a superior ethically or educationally.
)
) You may live where you like. Just remember that there is no anonymity in
) rural or small town environments. We know a lot more about all of our local
) Waldorfians than we'd like or they realize. Living in a fishbowl is not
) pleasant. Perhaps you will all decide to go back to the wealthy enclaves
) from which you came. We devoutly hope so.
)
) We really do not care what went down in Germany over 70 years ago vis-a-vis
) Steiner. We do know that facism can be summed up as "Our way or die". We
) see Waldorf and Anthroposophy and Associative Economics and
) Anthroposophically Extended Medicine using the tactics of the whisper
) campaign, the natural alienation of teens, the need to belong to enforce
) the Anthro world view.
)
) And do not cry prejudice because your belief system was attacked by the
) Nazis way back when if you are attempting to marginalize anyone who does
) not agree with you now. Write to all the Board members, ISP providers,
) clients, patients, customers and the IRS for all the good it will do.
) Continue to surveil PLANS members homes, call & hang up, follow cars
) containing children and make all the obscene & cryptic hand signals you
) wish. Do not allow any of us to post to *your* lists on the Internet.
) Inform your co-believers that they should avoid all those "negative"
) scientific types. We will still stand against any attempt to impose your
) beliefs upon or co-opt our communities and our children in every way we
) can. Do not think that we are not aware that there is a 4th layer beneath
) Anthroposophy's 3 levels of profession of faith, that of the political
) will-to-power.
)
) Good luck.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n981.6 ---------------
From: Robert Tolz (rtolz cosmoweb.net)
Subject: Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n980
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 13:11:29 -0500
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References: (199811170410.UAA20952 lists1.best.com)
) Subject: Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
) ) Q4: Please evaluate the following statement: "Assuming for the sake
) )of argument that Steiner had anti-Semitic tendencies, neither he nor
) )anthroposophy nor Waldorf education was the cause of anti-Semitism or
) )the rise of the Nazis and Hitler." ___ True ___ False
)
) True. But this doesn't get Steiner off the hook for encouraging
) anti-semitism. He wasn't "the cause," but he helped.
)
) -Dan Dugan
Well, I'm glad you answered the question, because even though it was
addressed to Herman, it was aimed at what I felt was some of your
comments (e.g., "and you know what happened next...") which seemed to
pin more direct blame on Steiner. It appears to me now that your
feeling about Steiner's degree of contribution to that era is a good
deal less than I initially perceived your feeling to be.
I won't try to get in the last word on what that degree of contribution
was. I've made my point before and don't want to bore anyone with
repetition.
--
Robert Tolz
Email: rtolz cosmoweb.net
Web: http://www.cosmoweb.net/~rtolz
Tel: (212) 754-9400
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n981.7 ---------------
From: Kevin Houston (khouston onel.com)
Subject: Re: Reply to Anonymous
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:44:04 -0600
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References: (199811170935.BAA24439 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199811171733.JAA18826 lists1.best.com)
At 11:28 AM 11/17/98 , Ezra wrote:
)I truly wish people on this list subscribed to any notion of responsible
)speech. All too often it seems people are calling fire in a crowded mailing
)list, or from behind a pseudonym. I am not saying people should be forced,
)I am just pointing out what I think is right.
I can see a real need for anonymity, especially if this person has been
slandered and is in a competing business with the WE crowd. In a small
town (such as the one I grew up in) A person can suffer real economic loss
from shunning by a particular group.
) Anonymous worte:
)) Paranoia is the building of internally
)) consistent systems that have little, slight, or no relation to reality.
)
)Seems rather clinical to me. What is it like if your paranoid?
We wouldn't know, we aren't paranoid.
)BTW How can something be internally consistent and bear no relationship to
reality?
An example: A person keeps little balls of tin foil in a box under their
bed, they claim that it keeps the space aliens away. When it is pointed
out that there are no space aliens, the response is that the little box is
working. This situation is self consistent, it is entirely possible that
the tin foil *really* is keeping away the supposed space aliens, however,
it is not very likely to coincide with reality. The more likely
explanation (assuming you aren't into magical thinking) is that there are
no space aliens to begin with.
)(The mere fact the system is internally consistent makes it as real as ANY
)physical system, if not more so. The flip side to this is that physical
Makes it real to the person who believes, and makes it very difficult to
prove that it is not true. but just because something is self-consistent,
does not mean it is true.
)systems of sufficient complexity are necessarily inconsistent. A well know
)thesis of Kurt Godel, and the foundation of axiomatic mathematics).
No. No. No! GodÎl's thesis is the _Incompleteness_ theory, not the
inconsistent theory. The incompleteness theory says that _All_ such
systems require _at least one_ axiom (something believed to be true without
any evidence) in order to exist. there can never be some theorem or proof
which rests solely upon itself.
In the above example, there are two axioms which you cannot disprove:
1) The space aliens exist. (absence of proof is not proof of absence)
2) That they are afraid of small balls of tin foil contained within boxes.
Since you think they are false, and our paranoid thinks they are true, he
will consistently reach a different conclusion than you. His metacognition
(thoughts about his thinking) will not reveal any flaw to him since he is
not willing to question his assumptions)
Example: Euclidean geometry requires the definition of a point as a
non-dimensional object, that is, it does not have any length, width,
breadth, or temporal magnitude. But an infinite number of points placed
between any two non-coincident points does have a dimension, that of
length. How a bunch (even an infinite bunch) of zero-length points can add
up to something with length is never covered in Geometry, it is believed to
be true without any proof. Take away that axiom and all of Euclidean
geometry falls on it's arse.
)) Schizophrenia is a disease caused by imbalances of neurotransmitters.
)Oh yeah? Pretty much everything is caused by an imbalance of
)neurotransmitter. (If everything were balanced it would probably mean we
)were experiencing heat death [grin].
No, you can have balance (x% of Serotonin, vs y% of dopamine) and not be
balanced at zero. "Caused" is not a good verb here IMHO, it is entirely
possible that something else is causing both the imbalance and the
schizophrenia. But, most research I've read (Scientific American and
Discover magazine mostly) points to chemical imbalance as a root cause of
various dementia, with only the slightest glimmer of what is causing the
imbalance. This is a linear relation, 'X' causes imbalance, and imbalance
causes dementia. Rather than a mixed relation 'X' causes both imbalance
and (through some other mechanism as yet unknown) the dementia.
)Does thinking cause this imbalance,
Possibly, but not likely. otherwise, people who thought similar thoughts
over and over would cause within themselves a similar mental disorder....
Hmm, now that I think about it, perhaps AS *could* be considered a
communicable mental disorder transmitted by sloppy thinking. A meme
disease. Amway would definitely qualify now that I think about it. So, I
must change gears here and suggest that it _is_ possible that thinking
causes this imbalance in some cases.
)does a virus, or how about DNA?
Each is possible, more research is needed. This is the quintessential
difference between belief and proof. Belief can proceed from zero evidence
(and often does better in situations where no information is avail from the
normal five senses) Whereas proof has a higher standard.
(aside: five senses = quintessential?? same word root??)
)) Paranoia may be part of schizophrenia. Schizophrenia is separate from
)) paranoia.
)
)) The phrase,"paranoid schizophrenia", as far as I know, is
)
)) out-of-date, medically. However, I do not doubt that 12 years of Waldorf
)) has altered your cognitive abilities and processes. I see it all the time
)) in the local Waldorf students.
)
)I will take it as a compliment, thank you.
)
)The rest of this post is beyond me. Again, I wish actual people, places and
)things were named so that some manner of informed discussion/exploration
)might be undertaken. For sunlight is truly the best disinfectant.
)e
Agree about sunlight, (in the metaphorical sense anyway, in the microbial
sense, I prefer bleach) but I can understand why such a charge is leveled
anonymously. The fact that it does not name the various WE people involved
is to the credit of Mr/Ms Anonymous. Not fair to name the accused without
the accuser being named as well.
Kevin Houston.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n981.8 ---------------
From: David McKay (mckay oro.net)
Subject: Re: Reply to Nazi's Enemy #1
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:53:34 -0800
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In-Reply-To: (199811170935.BAA24439 lists1.best.com)
)[The following has been received as an anonymous posting. -dD-]
)
)To Bruce, Ezra, et al:
)
)Those of us who are silent on the list are so for many reasons. Mine is
)because my family has been on the recieving end of slander and has also
)experienced attempts from the local Waldorfians to marginalize our
)business. The local Waldorf school(s) are in a very small town. Our
)business competes with several run by Waldorf parents/friends of Waldorf.
)We are also active in keeping Waldorf out of the tax coffers via Charter
)schools and we must do this discreetly in order to not unduly alarm the
)Waldorf parents active in the Charter effort or to bring more annoyances
)upon ourselves.
I can personally attest to being on the "recieving end of slander" and
having my business impacted by my protesting/disagreeing with the local
WE/Anthro community here. It is the main reason I have not participated
much on the list over the last six months.
(snip) De ja vu all over again.
)Do not think that we are not aware that there is a 4th layer beneath
)Anthroposophy's 3 levels of profession of faith, that of the political
)will-to-power.
This last statement rings so succinct to my experience with WE/Anthroposophy.
)
)Good luck.
David McKay
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n981.9 ---------------
From: ckzfrey (ckzfrey ix.netcom.com)
Subject: Dugan's fascination with Nazis
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 98 16:27:44 -0600
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Dugan writes:
)4) That Waldorf schools supported Naziism by virtue of an overall
)anti-individualistic orientation. "If the Waldorf schools can 'guarantee'
)to produce a citizenry which can be relied upon to place itself at the
)disposal of the nation without reservations, then this is attributable only
)to the schools' consistent ability to reject rationalism and
)intellectualism." etc...
Are we quoting Nazis again here, Dan?
I would like to bring to the fore your method of quoting Nazis to advance
your ideas.
How can you claim that Anthroposophy is anti-Semitic when it is you who
envokes Nazis to prove a point?
I have said before and will say again that these were incredibly sick
and evil people; how can you claim that they were in a position to make
clear decision about anything?
How dare you claim that Nazis understood Waldorf education enoughto make
rational decisions on its behalf?
What else do you think they had valid ideas about? Free Masons? Gypsys?
Jews?
Lest you forget, the book that Rudolph Steiner wished would be his most
enduring was his "Philosophy of Freedom", which begins to teach us how to
make decisions out of ourselves, completely independent of the rules or
dogma of government or religion. I think that the Nazis would have liked
to have quite a bit more control over the populace.
Sorry, Dan, there's just no room for Nazis in Anthroposophy. But I
encourage you to continue quoting them in order to prove your ideas, you
just may find that they become an important source of information for
running your own organization.
Love ya,
Charlie Frey
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n981.10 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Reply to Anonymous
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 13:49:37 -0800
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References: (199811170935.BAA24439 lists1.best.com) (199811171841.KAA02566 lists1.best.com)
I think there are at least two distinct conversations in this email, so I am going to bifurcate them and address each within its own thread.
The first deals with the issue of responsible speech, anonymity and intimidation. The reason I called for responsible speech is not primarily to 'expose' those who accuse, but to expose those who are committing such heinous acts as well. The problem of anonymity, as I see it pertains to this list, is in this context such anonymity forwards PLANS agenda to espouse this sort of behavior being fostered by WE and not people themselves. I apologize for the awkwardness of that last sentence, but I
have little time.
In this situation (when no one is named, no particular school), the accused (in this case indicted) is not the people who committed what the poster described, but RS and WE in general.
e
Kevin Houston wrote:
) At 11:28 AM 11/17/98 , Ezra wrote:
) )I truly wish people on this list subscribed to any notion of responsible
) )speech. All too often it seems people are calling fire in a crowded mailing
) )list, or from behind a pseudonym. I am not saying people should be forced,
) )I am just pointing out what I think is right.
)
) I can see a real need for anonymity, especially if this person has been
) slandered and is in a competing business with the WE crowd. In a small
) town (such as the one I grew up in) A person can suffer real economic loss
) from shunning by a particular group.
)
) ) Anonymous worte:
) )) Paranoia is the building of internally
) )) consistent systems that have little, slight, or no relation to reality.
) )
) )Seems rather clinical to me. What is it like if your paranoid?
)
) We wouldn't know, we aren't paranoid.
)
That doesn't mean they're not out to get you. (A favorite meeting place of logic and paranoia.)
But seriously, there is much written on the subjective processes. I think Kurt Vonnegut's son wrote a book on it. There is Nash, Tesla, perhaps Godel might be considered (Godel is known to have been extremely paranoid, as was Tesla.) (In fact, when Godel went before the court with his friend Mark Twain [who was also a friend of Tesla's] at his citizenship hearing, Godel started trying to tell the judge about the possible (logical) loophole in the constitution allowing for a dictatorship.
Mark Twain cut him off.)
) Agree about sunlight, (in the metaphorical sense anyway, in the microbial
) sense, I prefer bleach) but I can understand why such a charge is leveled
) anonymously. The fact that it does not name the various WE people involved
) is to the credit of Mr/Ms Anonymous. Not fair to name the accused without
) the accuser being named as well.
)
) Kevin Houston.
The quote was from Louis Dembitz Brandeis, associate justice. As for whether one sympathizes with anonymous allegations, I guess it is a matter of style. In the extreme I agree, and if one's life is in danger than perhaps it is best done without repercussion. But generally, the truth (like freedom) is something worth fighting for and to expect it comes without a cost is wrong.
e
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n981 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n982 --------------
001 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: Reply to Anonymous
002 - Kathy (spike netshel.net) - Slander and Paranoia
003 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - About High School
004 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - videos about Waldorf in public schools
005 - BruceyJ aol.com - Re: About High School
006 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: About High School
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n982.1 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: Reply to Anonymous
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 16:02:32 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199811171733.JAA18826 lists1.best.com)
(199811170935.BAA24439 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199811171841.KAA02566 lists1.best.com)
Kevin wrote,
)I can see a real need for anonymity, especially if this person has been
)slandered and is in a competing business with the WE crowd. In a small
)town (such as the one I grew up in) A person can suffer real economic loss
)from shunning by a particular group.
I consider myself quite lucky that my husband and I own a manufacturing
business whose customer base is spread out across the country. Within that
scope, we have a few Waldorf customers. We never mix business with
education or religious topics. If Waldorf is mentioned, I quickly change
the subject by asking about their children. We have a local customer who
is a Waldorf family [who said that he can't stand the Anthroposophy aspect
of the school]. We had a heart to heart when the lawsuit was filed and I
think he supports the idea of getting Anthroposophy out of the school.
When we were into Waldorf, we co-designed a jewelry piece with another
Waldorf family [from another area]. Every bit of the profits went to our
respective Waldorf schools. We stopped donating after two (considerable)
checks because we were never even thanked or acknowledged with anything
other than, "Oh.". Couldn't even get permission to do a fundraiser selling
the piece, which was an attractive pendant inspired by the "head, heart and
hands" Waldorf saying... In hindsight, I guess we never were very good
victims.
Debra
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n982.2 ---------------
From: Kathy (spike netshel.net)
Subject: Slander and Paranoia
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 20:50:33 -0800
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David McKay Posted:
) )[The following has been received as an anonymous posting. -dD-]
) )
) )To Bruce, Ezra, et al:
) I can personally attest to being on the "recieving end of slander" and
) having my business impacted by my protesting/disagreeing with the local
) WE/Anthro community here. It is the main reason I have not participated
) much on the list over the last six months.
)
) (snip) De ja vu all over again.
And deja vu here also. I still shudder when I recall the harassment I
endured after I protested Waldorf inclusion and enforced Waldorf teacher
training at my public school site. I was subsequently labeled as having
emotional problems, as well as being a liar and a thief. This was the
same Office of Education that had once selected me as Teacher of the
Month and supported my nomination as a national Teacher of the Year.
After I quit my job I received a number of interviews with other school
districts. As soon as contact was made with my former administrator
potential employers turned cold and talk of a teaching position dried
up.
Recently I had a discussion with Dick Oliver, the administrator of the
Waldorf List. I posted a short reply to that list in recent days. D.
Oliver informed me that other list members had contacted him because
they were alarmed that I was a list member. They told him that I was
"not nice" and was a Critic. Because of this, Oliver felt compelled to
identify me publically to the list by posting that I was a participant
in the Critics List. So, even though my post was polite and directed to
the topic at hand, Waldorfians don't want me there because I am "not
nice". Why am I "not nice"? Well, because I am a Critic. And . . . just
in case any of the subscribers didn't know I was a Critic (and therefore
"not nice") I was publically identified.
In other words, since I disagree with the method and/or underlying
beliefs and funding strategies of Waldorf/Anthroposophy, so I am "not
nice" and am deserving of any type of harassment necessary to
effectively discredit my concerns. (To this day I get hang-up calls on a
near daily basis. It is my hunch that these are related to
above-mentioned incidents. Whoever is doing it has a block on their
phone, so I am sure it is the same individual.) Other than the flack I
receive resulting from my Waldorf criticism I have no other known
enemies or even people that mildly or moderately dislike me. Gosh, I'm
even well liked and considered to be a trustworthy, generous member of
my community. Why is there such a discrepancy between this view and that
held by Waldorf devotees that know of my criticisms? I can identify only
one variable - my criticism.
)From my experience harassment and shunning are frighteningly real and
potentially disastrous, both economically and emotionally, for the
individual that dares to publically disagree with the Waldorf mentality
whether it is in regard to pedagogy, funding, or any other activity that
might be engaged in as an aspect of a Waldorf school.
) )Do not think that we are not aware that there is a 4th layer beneath
) )Anthroposophy's 3 levels of profession of faith, that of the political
) )will-to-power.
)
) This last statement rings so succinct to my experience with WE/Anthroposophy.
)
Ditto.
Very nicely critically yours, Kathy
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n982.3 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: About High School
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:08:10 -0800
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I have been thinking about that annonymous letter, specifically the part
that addressed children who switched from Waldorf to public school. The
author stated that often these students required their own full-time aide.
It appears that Waldorf is not designed for "the educationally sub-normal
and handicapped..." and if such a determination is made, the students are
given back to the public school system.
My question is: How does Waldorf determine who is of "sub-normal"
intelligence, who is merely a victim of Waldorf's inadequate educational
methods and discipline techniques, based on Rudolf Steiner's untested
theory of human development?
Debra
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In the booklet, 'You Wanted to Know...WHAT A WALDORF SCHOOL IS...And What
It Is Not', Alan Howard writes:
About High School
You have told me about the Preschool and the Grade school, what about the
High school?
In the High school, we come to that third and last phase of emphasis in the
threefold process that I mentioned - the emergence of the individual human
spirit in that element which alone distinguishes man from every other
creature - his thinking judgement.
You don't believe, then, what most evolutionary theory seems to teach, that
man is a higher animal?
It is not a matter of belief, but of observation of what is obviously
there. However much or little man is related to the animal in other
respects - and some relationship cannot be denied - his individual thinking
judgement, his ego consciousness, is obviously no part of the animal. The
cosmic intelligence that is manifested in all other living creatures as
instinct, differenciates itself in man as the individual self-conscious
judgement that freely directs his own destiny.
How do you justify that?
You only have to consider the course of history. There is not a single
achievement in human progress that did not first emerge as the initiative
of a single individual. Even if masses of individuals were later required
to carry it out, that was done either on their own decision and direction,
or on that of others. The individual is supreme in human progress. This
alone explains genius; where the unlimited potential latent in human
capacity can sometimes appear in one man and initiate something which man
as a mere species could never do.
How does this affect the high school education?
That's where this individual potential appears, and begins to be directly
developed. We now work with that individual in depth and breadth to the
limit of his capacity. Knowledge is no longer a matter of play as it was in
the Preschool, or of human interest only, as it was in grade school. It is
now an intellectual discipline by which the individuality comes to itself,
and begins to grow consciously. The facts and laws and processes of the
world of Nature and of Man are something the student now has to penetrate
in increasing depth in the light of their own objective, eternal grandeur.
He has to understand them for what they are, and to realize that it is only
by the utmost exertion of his will, and the intellect with which he is
endowed that he will be able to do so. He is much more on his own now.
In other words, you now have to make up in the High school for what you did
not do earlier?
Not a bit of it! Rather, it is because the intellect was not pressured in
those earlier years, and because the interest in knowledge was allowed to
develop side-by-side with far-reaching conception of man, that we can now
call upon him to exercise his intellectual capacity to the maximum. Has it
ever occured to you that it may well be because too much pressure is put on
the intellect in the earlier years that we have all the adolescent troubles
our modern society is plauged with today?
You don't get those adolescent problems, then, in a Waldorf school, like
dropping out, precocious sex, drugs, alcoholism and even violence?
To nothing of the same extent, no.
But you do get them?
One cannot avoid them all together. This is something which is a world
dis-ease of our time. In a culture like our own, where adolescents have
easy access to sex experience, drink, drugs, wild unsupervised parties, and
the general deterioration of home support and guidance, our young people
cannot pass through it untouched. You must remember, too, that we admit
students at all ages, and while, on the whole, children who have been with
us since Preschool keep on an even keel, we not only get those who have
experienced the worst of modern tendencies, but definately suffer from
them. They sometimes can create quite acute problems.
What do you do about them?
Everything we can to adapt them to a healthier and new outlook on life,
learning and behavior.
And if you can't?
Then they have to leave. After all, a school, and particularly an
independent school, has a reputation to keep up for the kind of program and
behavior it has promised the public. Just as it cannot hope, and does not
intend, to do anything with the educationally sub-normal and handicapped,
so it cannot with those who have been damaged by drugs, drink or the other
excesses of our society.
So you abandon them, then?
That's not quite fair. We, first of all, take every precaution, especially
in the High school, about what children we admit, so that "abandoning" as
you call it, may never need to happen. But, on those rare occasions when we
may be wrong in our judgement, we still do everything we can to solve the
problems that arise. But there comes a point where both the student and the
school have to face the fact that they have reached a limit and, in that
the case, the student would be told to leave.
You Wanted to Know...WHAT A WALDORF SCHOOL IS...And What It Is Not', Alan
Howard writes, St. George Publications, 1983, First Edition, p.36 - 40
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n982.4 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: videos about Waldorf in public schools
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 11:01:51 -0800
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I'm passing along the following information that was posted to the SJU
Waldorf list by Kytka Jezek (Hdghgfarms AOL.COM) (thanks, Kytka). -Dan Dugan
)Anthroposophic Press currently carries three videos:
)1) Taking a Risk in
)Education - Waldorf Inspired Public Schools, it is 48 minutes long and
)showcases how Waldorf curriculum is being integrated into public schools
)across the US. It is listed for $29.95 and if you want to order it, it is
)item # 3023.
2) Urban Waldorf - A day in the life of a Milwaukee Public
)School. This is about the Milwaukee Urban Waldorf School, the first public
)school to adopt & implement the Waldorf curriculum. Interviews with teachers,
)administrators and experts in WE. It is 29 minutes long and is listed as item
)# 3024 for $24.95.
)3) Waldorf Education - A Vision of Wholeness. This is a general introduction
)into the Waldorf movement in North America. It is listed as item # 1468 and
)costs $20.00.
)You can order directly from Anthroposophic Press. Their
)address is 3390, Route 9, Hudson, New York, 12534. (www.anthropress.org) ,
)tel: 518-851-2054, fax: 518-851-2047.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n982.5 ---------------
From: BruceyJ aol.com
Subject: Re: About High School
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 16:56:30 EST
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In einer eMail vom 18.11.98 19:27:09 MEZ, schreiben Sie:
(( My question is: How does Waldorf determine who is of "sub-normal"
intelligence, who is merely a victim of Waldorf's inadequate educational
methods and discipline techniques, based on Rudolf Steiner's untested
theory of human development? ))
Hi Debra!
Is this really your question, or are you trying to draw one of us lurkers out
of our shell so that you and others can attempt to squeeze blood out of the
words we use? The first question is, in this context, for admissions
procedures to define; I cannot answer for "Waldorf", and to my knowledge, no-
one can. I can, but I doubt it would be of interest cos examples cannot be
given for very obvious "breach-of-confidence" grounds, give a view that it
entirely my own, and is permanently being reviewed in the light of experience.
The second question is presumably directed at (US) public schools who
"acquire" ex-waldorf pupils. As to Rudolf Steiner's "untested" theory of human
development, what are Waldorf schools "testing" then? I would like to see a
statistic (but I fear that none exists) of the proportion of delighted parents
of waldorf pupils in the waldorf population: if no-one were disenchanted then
we (personal pronoun) could indeed be considered as higher forms of animal, eg
sheep!
Shalom
Bruce
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n982.6 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: About High School
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 14:21:49 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Debra:
)
)(( My question is: How does Waldorf determine who is of "sub-normal"
) intelligence, who is merely a victim of Waldorf's inadequate educational
) methods and discipline techniques, based on Rudolf Steiner's untested
) theory of human development? ))
Bruce wrote:
)Hi Debra!
)
)Is this really your question, or are you trying to draw one of us lurkers out
)of our shell so that you and others can attempt to squeeze blood out of the
)words we use?
Err, it is really my question. I haven't really seen myself as someone who
"squeezes blood" out of anyone's words. It is true that my experience with
Waldorf has colored my vision, but I truely do not feel angry anymore. I
think my question is one that should be answerable.
The first question is, in this context, for admissions
)procedures to define; I cannot answer for "Waldorf", and to my knowledge, no-
)one can. I can, but I doubt it would be of interest cos examples cannot be
)given for very obvious "breach-of-confidence" grounds, give a view that it
)entirely my own, and is permanently being reviewed in the light of experience.
Can you give examples of the criteria _you_ use to determine if someone is
of "sub-normal" intelligence? Do you give intelligence tests to students
who apply to your school?
)The second question is presumably directed at (US) public schools who
)"acquire" ex-waldorf pupils. As to Rudolf Steiner's "untested" theory of human
)development, what are Waldorf schools "testing" then?
Good question.
I would like to see a
)statistic (but I fear that none exists) of the proportion of delighted parents
)of waldorf pupils in the waldorf population: if no-one were disenchanted then
)we (personal pronoun) could indeed be considered as higher forms of animal, eg
)sheep!
In the USA, perhaps a good place to begin is with AWSNA. They should
_require_ AWSNA member schools to perform exit interviews with parents who
withdrawl their children from Waldorf. Additionally, questionaires could be
mailed to the parents from AWSNA, to be confidentially read and tallied.
How do Waldorf officials know that Waldorf does what it claims to do? Is
there any measurement currently used? If so, what is that?
Debra
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n982 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n983 --------------
001 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Main Lesson Time
002 - BruceyJ aol.com - Re: About High School
003 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: About High School
004 - "Luke Schelly" (lschelly - questions for Deby
005 - Kevin Houston (khouston o - Re: Main Lesson Time (Or don't teach your grandpa to suck eggs
006 - Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis - Re: About High School
007 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Main Lesson Time (Or don't teach your grandpa to suck eggs
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n983.1 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Main Lesson Time
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 16:46:54 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199811170935.BAA24439 lists1.best.com) (199811171841.KAA02566 lists1.best.com)
This is the second thread response, as promised. For the record, rhetorical questions are not to be taken literally...
Kevin Houston wrote:
) )BTW How can something be internally consistent and bear no relationship to
) reality?
)
) An example: A person keeps little balls of tin foil in a box under their
) bed, they claim that it keeps the space aliens away. When it is pointed
) out that there are no space aliens, the response is that the little box is
) working.
You might forego giving examples when possible, unless it is a common or well known example. Giving a poor example tends to weaken one's argument, regardless of the logic involved. Moreover, in a dialogue, unless narrowly defined, an example is fertile ground for straw men.
In this case, you do not really address my rhetorical comment on the vague nature of paranoia. Generally, the paranoid's problem is not one of logical ability, but of normative capacity. In your example, the paranoids belief in the conceivability of space aliens is juxtaposed by your skepticism. My point is this paranoid is conceiving rationally, but since his belief system is haywire his conclusion is (presumably) invalid.
)
) )systems of sufficient complexity are necessarily inconsistent. A well know
) )thesis of Kurt Godel, and the foundation of axiomatic mathematics).
)
) No. No. No! GodÎl's thesis is the _Incompleteness_ theory, not the
) inconsistent theory.
Did I say inconsistent theory?? Nope, I know what the name is, I was describing it's impact on natural systems (eg set theory). This work more or less caps that of Alonzo Church, Alan Turing, Alfred Whitehead and Bertrand Russle (among others) in the field.
) The incompleteness theory says that _All_ such
) systems require _at least one_ axiom (something believed to be true without
) any evidence) in order to exist. there can never be some theorem or proof
) which rests solely upon itself.
Where do you get a single axiom? I think there are like 3 or 4 for math, and then more have been added as more and more esoteric problems arise. (I can always ask my best WE classmate getting his PhD in Math at Colorado).
But again, mostly you just missed my point. If _all_ such systems need at least a single (your definition) axiom on which to rest, something not derivable (provable) and therefore inconsistent, each and every system is necessarily inconsistent. (see last post).
And your definition of axiom is misleading. Generally axioms have generous amounts of evidence (especially if you are going by PLANS requirements), but they _cannot_ be proven.
) In the above example, there are two axioms which you cannot disprove:
)
) 1) The space aliens exist. (absence of proof is not proof of absence)
I like that parenthesized remark.
)
) 2) That they are afraid of small balls of tin foil contained within boxes.
)
) Since you think they are false, and our paranoid thinks they are true, he
) will consistently reach a different conclusion than you. His metacognition
) (thoughts about his thinking) will not reveal any flaw to him since he is
) not willing to question his assumptions)
If you question all your assumptions you will go mad. The trick with reality is knowing which assumptions are truly taboo and which are merely convenient. (grin)
) Example: Euclidean geometry requires the definition of a point as a
) non-dimensional object, that is, it does not have any length, width,
) breadth, or temporal magnitude. But an infinite number of points placed
) between any two non-coincident points does have a dimension, that of
) length. How a bunch (even an infinite bunch) of zero-length points can add
) up to something with length is never covered in Geometry, it is believed to
) be true without any proof. Take away that axiom and all of Euclidean
) geometry falls on it's arse.
He will only fall on his arse after passing an infinite amount of points. (see Zeno)
)
) )) Schizophrenia is a disease caused by imbalances of neurotransmitters.
)
) )Oh yeah? Pretty much everything is caused by an imbalance of
) )neurotransmitter. (If everything were balanced it would probably mean we
) )were experiencing heat death [grin].
)
) No, you can have balance (x% of Serotonin, vs y% of dopamine) and not be
) balanced at zero. "Caused" is not a good verb here IMHO, it is entirely
) possible that something else is causing both the imbalance and the
) schizophrenia.
The relationship of your response to my sentence escapes me. I was referring to the balance (ironical here) when a system's energy reaches zero (heat death), an equilibrium of sorts.
)
) )Does thinking cause this imbalance,
)
) Possibly, but not likely. otherwise, people who thought similar thoughts
) over and over would cause within themselves a similar mental disorder....
Too simplistic an answer and straw man to bother with.
)
) Hmm, now that I think about it, perhaps AS *could* be considered a
) communicable mental disorder transmitted by sloppy thinking. A meme
) disease.
You must have read Snow Crash.
) Amway would definitely qualify now that I think about it. So, I
) must change gears here and suggest that it _is_ possible that thinking
) causes this imbalance in some cases.
)
) )does a virus, or how about DNA?
)
) Each is possible, more research is needed. This is the quintessential
) difference between belief and proof. Belief can proceed from zero evidence
) (and often does better in situations where no information is avail from the
) normal five senses) Whereas proof has a higher standard.
thanks for the expert _opinion_.
e
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n983.2 ---------------
From: BruceyJ aol.com
Subject: Re: About High School
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:28:55 EST
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In einer eMail vom 18.11.98 23:42:21 MEZ, schreiben Sie:
Debra:
)
)(( My question is: How does Waldorf determine who is of "sub-normal"
) intelligence, who is merely a victim of Waldorf's inadequate educational
) methods and discipline techniques, based on Rudolf Steiner's untested
) theory of human development? ))
Bruce wrote:
)Hi Debra!
)
)Is this really your question, or are you trying to draw one of us lurkers
out
)of our shell so that you and others can attempt to squeeze blood out of the
)words we use?
Err, it is really my question. I haven't really seen myself as someone who
"squeezes blood" out of anyone's words. It is true that my experience with
Waldorf has colored my vision, but I truely do not feel angry anymore. I
think my question is one that should be answerable.
Bruce: Accepted
The first question is, in this context, for admissions
)procedures to define; I cannot answer for "Waldorf", and to my knowledge,
no-
)one can. I can, but I doubt it would be of interest cos examples cannot be
)given for very obvious "breach-of-confidence" grounds, give a view that it
)entirely my own, and is permanently being reviewed in the light of
experience.
Can you give examples of the criteria _you_ use to determine if someone is
of "sub-normal" intelligence? Do you give intelligence tests to students
who apply to your school?
I have nothing to do with admissions where I currently teach, but I can say
that in the schools where I have known what happens, the members of the
admissions group (exact name varies from school to school) will either include
experts in the field where there may be a question (gleaned from telephone or
written statements before the formal "Einschulungs- Aufnahmegespr”ch") or the
relevent question will be asked of an expert. This is not only where the
intelligence is challenged, and clearly varies considerably with the age of
the applicant. The purpose is to determine if the child will "benefit" from
the education, and if the class will "benefit" from the applicant's presence.
It is by no means a foregone conclusion that an applicant will be accepted,
but there is no specific intelligence test in any school I know of. I am sorry
if this is not the answer to your question, but I remain unsure as to exactly
what you are asking.
)The second question is presumably directed at (US) public schools who
)"acquire" ex-waldorf pupils. As to Rudolf Steiner's "untested" theory of
human
)development, what are Waldorf schools "testing" then?
Good question.
I would like to see a
)statistic (but I fear that none exists) of the proportion of delighted
parents
)of waldorf pupils in the waldorf population: if no-one were disenchanted
then
)we (personal pronoun) could indeed be considered as higher forms of animal,
eg
)sheep!
In the USA, perhaps a good place to begin is with AWSNA. They should
_require_ AWSNA member schools to perform exit interviews with parents who
withdrawl their children from Waldorf.
Being in Germany I have no influence over AWSNA, and to a great extent I would
think it would be left to the individual schools. I sense that you presume
that parents that do not withdraw their children are satisfied, so to start
with it would be interesting simply to see how many kids are withdrawn (other
than for replacement at another waldorf school or due to parental relocation
to a place where there aint one) as a proportion of the total population. Does
PLANS have such a statistic?
Additionally, questionaires could be
mailed to the parents from AWSNA, to be confidentially read and tallied.
How do Waldorf officials know that Waldorf does what it claims to do? Is
there any measurement currently used? If so, what is that?
I think that the last time I sat in front of a "waldorf-education-measurement-
machine" was when I was dreaming of Scientologists and their "black-boxes"....
what on earth do you mean?? As a teacher authorised to take children through
to university entrance in Germany I think I would consider myself to have
passed such a test. As the leading horn-player in the wxyz philarmonic
orchestra I would consider myself to have passed such a test. As the
archichect behind the abcd bridge project I would consider myself to have
passed such a test. As the mother of three happy, breastfed (!) children
attending waldorf-school I would consider myself to have passed such a
test.... I could go on, but maybe some of you will anyway never see my point!
Shalom
Bruce
(On another list, or was it this one, the question of sarcasm, tongue-in-cheek
comments and blatant irony was raised - WARNING: SOME OF THE ABOVE IS IRONIC!)
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From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: About High School
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n983.3 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: About High School
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 08:33:58 -0800
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Bruce wrote,
)I have nothing to do with admissions where I currently teach, but I can say
)that in the schools where I have known what happens, the members of the
)admissions group (exact name varies from school to school) will either include
)experts in the field where there may be a question (gleaned from telephone or
)written statements before the formal "Einschulungs- Aufnahmegespr”ch") or the
)relevent question will be asked of an expert. This is not only where the
)intelligence is challenged, and clearly varies considerably with the age of
)the applicant. The purpose is to determine if the child will "benefit" from
)the education, and if the class will "benefit" from the applicant's presence.
)It is by no means a foregone conclusion that an applicant will be accepted,
)but there is no specific intelligence test in any school I know of. I am sorry
)if this is not the answer to your question, but I remain unsure as to exactly
)what you are asking.
Here, I have only antidotal information regarding two private Waldorf
schools, where a child was turned away because his picture was too
developed. The teacher felt that he would pre-awaken the rest of his
students (2nd grade). Ironically, this same child was turned away at a
neighboring Waldorf school because his picture was not developed enough.
His mother said that her son was nervious and didn't feel like drawing
during the first interview. This child was finally accepted at a public
Waldorf school.
)
) )The second question is presumably directed at (US) public schools who
) )"acquire" ex-waldorf pupils. As to Rudolf Steiner's "untested" theory of
)human
) )development, what are Waldorf schools "testing" then?
)
) Good question.
)
) I would like to see a
) )statistic (but I fear that none exists) of the proportion of delighted
)parents
) )of waldorf pupils in the waldorf population: if no-one were disenchanted
)then
) )we (personal pronoun) could indeed be considered as higher forms of animal,
)eg
) )sheep!
)
Bruce:
)Being in Germany I have no influence over AWSNA, and to a great extent I would
)think it would be left to the individual schools. I sense that you presume
)that parents that do not withdraw their children are satisfied, so to start
)with it would be interesting simply to see how many kids are withdrawn (other
)than for replacement at another waldorf school or due to parental relocation
)to a place where there aint one) as a proportion of the total population. Does
)PLANS have such a statistic?
No, but we'd certainly be interested in a figure. Again, I have information
on only one school, a public Waldorf school, where 80 families withdrew
their children in one year.
Debra:
))How do Waldorf officials know that Waldorf does what it claims to do? Is
))there any measurement currently used? If so, what is that?
Bruce:
)I think that the last time I sat in front of a "waldorf-education-measurement-
)machine" was when I was dreaming of Scientologists and their "black-boxes"....
)what on earth do you mean?? As a teacher authorised to take children through
)to university entrance in Germany I think I would consider myself to have
)passed such a test. As the leading horn-player in the wxyz philarmonic
)orchestra I would consider myself to have passed such a test. As the
)archichect behind the abcd bridge project I would consider myself to have
)passed such a test. As the mother of three happy, breastfed (!) children
)attending waldorf-school I would consider myself to have passed such a
)test.... I could go on, but maybe some of you will anyway never see my point!
Debra:
Are you saying that parents who are interested in Waldorf should just
enroll their children and then find out if they like it or not? I was
thinking of enrollment procurement, and those questions came up for me.
BTW, is your name really Bruce? Forgive me for thinking you were a man.
Email does have it's limitations...
)
)Shalom
)Bruce
)
)(On another list, or was it this one, the question of sarcasm, tongue-in-cheek
)comments and blatant irony was raised - WARNING: SOME OF THE ABOVE IS IRONIC!)
I got that. :+)
Debra
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n983.4 ---------------
From: "Luke Schelly" (lschelly JackRouse.com)
Subject: questions for Deby
Date: 19 Nov 1998 15:07:34 -0500
Debra you posted:
I have been thinking about that anonymous letter, specifically the part
that addressed children who switched from Waldorf to public school. The
author stated that often these students required their own full-time aide.
It appears that Waldorf is not designed for "the educationally sub-normal
and handicapped..." and if such a determination is made, the students are
given back to the public school system.
My question is: How does Waldorf determine who is of "sub-normal"
intelligence, who is merely a victim of Waldorf's inadequate educational
methods and discipline techniques, based on Rudolf Steiner's untested
theory of human development?
Bruce wrote:
)Hi Debra!
)
)Is this really your question, or are you trying to draw one of us lurkers out
)of our shell so that you and others can attempt to squeeze blood out of the
)words we use?
and Debra responded
)Err, it is really my question. I haven't really seen myself as someone who
)"squeezes blood" out of anyone's words.
My response:
Except for that "worm your way..." fiasco
) It is true that my experience with
)Waldorf has colored my vision, but I truely do not feel angry anymore.
Me:
No, it seems to have blossomed into a kind of "I'm so clever and enlightened
about this and I pity you, but since right is right, I need to warn all those
who come in contact with your small-minded ways" kind of attitude.
)I think my question is one that should be answerable.
My response:
Firstly, I thought the anonymous author was complaining that he felt (no
actual data provided) waldorf kids, when transfering into public schools, were
so far behind other public school kids that they required additional special
attention. Meaning this was already an additional expense of the taxpayers
money outside of the normal taxpayer funding that you are against. (I don't
think he mentioned anything about "sub normal" itelligence.)
In light of this, I think you could probably go to *your public schools*
and find out how many waldorf transfers require special or additional
attention. You might want to compare that with the overall transfer of
children into the public schools from all other schools as well to see if
waldorf has a higher rate of special needs transfers. You might compare that
also to the number of children moving through each one of these schools as
well, so that large schools won't "look worse" just because they have more
children. Of course this whole set-up will be complicated by the cost of
schools, the location of schools, the age of schools, the age of the school
kids, the kinds of special attention they need, and a bunch of other stuff.
going back to the question you posted:
)My question is: How does Waldorf determine who is of "sub-normal"
)intelligence, who is merely a victim of Waldorf's inadequate educational
)methods and discipline techniques, based on Rudolf Steiner's untested
)theory of human development?
I think I can answer some of this question, but first i need to know:
are you asking
1) who is (the person) of "sub normal intelligence", and who (other person)is
"merely a *victim* of Waldorf's *inadequate* educational methods and
discipline techniques, based on Rudolf Steiner's *untested* theory of human
development?"
(yep, Deby, no "blood words" here)[my *'s for emphasis]
or are you asking
2) who is of "sub normal intelligence" and is *also* "merely a victim of
Waldorf's inadequate educational methods and discipline techniques, based on
Rudolf Steiner's untested theory of human development? (I take that to mean
that they really aren't of "sub normal intelligence", just that the waldorf
system makes them that way)
or
3) something else that I didn't understand?
Deby, could you also provide some examples of tested theories of human
development, and how they are tested/evaluated? How do you/can you judge
something that is "tested" from something that is "untested" or "tested
differently"?
Luke
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n983.5 ---------------
From: Kevin Houston (khouston onel.com)
Subject: Re: Main Lesson Time (Or don't teach your grandpa to suck eggs)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:30:05 -0600
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References: (199811170935.BAA24439 lists1.best.com)
(199811171841.KAA02566 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199811190051.QAA27952 lists1.best.com)
At 06:46 PM 11/18/98 , you wrote:
)This is the second thread response, as promised. For the record, rhetorical
)questions are not to be taken literally...
)
)Kevin Houston wrote:
)) Ezra arote:
)) )BTW How can something be internally consistent and bear no relationship to
)) )reality?
))
)) An example: A person keeps little balls of tin foil in a box under their
)) bed, they claim that it keeps the space aliens away. When it is pointed
)) out that there are no space aliens, the response is that the little box is
)) working.
)
)You might forego giving examples when possible, unless it is a common or
)well known example. Giving a poor example tends to weaken one's argument,
This is not a poor example, it is a very pertinent example of a situation
which is internally consistent, and bears no relationship to reality,
furthermore, it is a common situation of mentally disturbed people.
)regardless of the logic involved. Moreover, in a dialogue, unless narrowly
)defined, an example is fertile ground for straw men.
Construct as many as you like, I will strike them all down as I have your
other ones.
)In this case, you do not really address my rhetorical comment on the vague
)nature of paranoia.
No, as should be obvious from the section I *did* quote prior to my
response, (How can something be internally consistent and bear no
relationship to reality?) I was responding to that specific point. Do you
deny that my example is internally consistent, or do you deny that it bears
no relationship to reality. Or do you agree with the hypothesis?)
I was not addressing your point that paranoia is vague, because I happen to
agree with it. the clinical definition of paranoia is still, IMHO, too
blurry to be discussed by someone like myself (and I suspect you) who has
little or no training in psychology. Besides, your remark was rhetorical
(by your own admission, and therefore not worth responding to)
)Generally, the paranoid's problem is not one of logical
)ability, but of normative capacity. In your example, the paranoids belief
)in the conceivability of space aliens is juxtaposed by your skepticism. My
)point is this paranoid is conceiving rationally, but since his belief system
)is haywire his conclusion is (presumably) invalid.
So to paraphrase, when you state "this paranoid is conceiving rationally"
this means that the thought process is internally self consistent... and
"since his belief system is haywire his conclusion is (presumably)
invalid." means that it bears little relationship to reality. So finally
you agree. Or have I quoted you out of context? I don't think so, but I
doubt you can admit that someone other than yourself is right.
)) )systems of sufficient complexity are necessarily inconsistent. A well know
)) )thesis of Kurt Godel, and the foundation of axiomatic mathematics).
))
)) No. No. No! GodÎl's thesis is the _Incompleteness_ theory, not the
)) inconsistent theory.
)
)Did I say inconsistent theory?? Nope, I know what the name is, I was
)describing it's impact on natural systems (eg set theory).
And doing so badly. Incompleteness has nothing to do with inconsistence.
Incompleteness means a lack of evidence, inconsistent means the evidence
you do have contradicts itself. They have nothing to do with each other.
)) The incompleteness theory says that _All_ such
)) systems require _at least one_ axiom (something believed to be true without
)) any evidence) in order to exist. there can never be some theorem or proof
)) which rests solely upon itself.
)
)Where do you get a single axiom? I think there are like 3 or 4 for math,
Please take the time to read more carefully, I said (and even stressed it
with underline) -- "require _at least one_ axiom" this means that more can
be used, but that this is the minimum.
)and then more have been added as more and more esoteric problems arise. (I
)can always ask my best WE classmate getting his PhD in Math at Colorado).
I think you would do better to take a refresher course in basic math with
attention to formal proofs.
)But again, mostly you just missed my point. If _all_ such systems need at
)least a single (your definition) axiom on which to rest, something not
)derivable (provable) and therefore inconsistent, each and every system is
)necessarily inconsistent. (see last post).
You said "...something not derivable (provable) and therefore
inconsistent," Where did you get the conclusion of inconsistency from?
Just because something is believed without proof, does not make it
inconsistent. I think you may have a language problem here.
)And your definition of axiom is misleading. Generally axioms have generous
)amounts of evidence (especially if you are going by PLANS requirements), but
)they _cannot_ be proven.
Please state what evidence exists for dimensionless points (an example of a
well known axiom which has no evidence.) On the contrary, it is _your_
definition of axiom which is lacking. Most axioms are designed to restrict
the discussion to a specific situation which is generally simpler, and
therefore easier to analyze. We would have had a difficult time learning
the rules of geometry if we had to do so in the hyperbolic space of the
real universe, rather than the simple plane of Euclid.
)) In the above example, there are two axioms which you cannot disprove:
))
)) 1) The space aliens exist. (absence of proof is not proof of absence)
)
)I like that parenthesized remark.
)
))
)) 2) That they are afraid of small balls of tin foil contained within boxes.
))
)) Since you think they are false, and our paranoid thinks they are true, he
)) will consistently reach a different conclusion than you. His metacognition
)) (thoughts about his thinking) will not reveal any flaw to him since he is
)) not willing to question his assumptions)
)
)If you question all your assumptions you will go mad. The trick with
)reality is knowing which assumptions are truly taboo and which are merely
)convenient. (grin)
I note you do not refute either of these axioms, nor do you refute the
conclusion; may one assume then that you agree? (not bloody likely). In
contrast to your philosophy, I _always_ question my assumptions. I have
learned from a long career in programming, that the section of code which
you *know* to be correct beyond any need of checking, contains the bug. To
wit: if you do not question all your assumptions, you will get erroneous
results.
)) Example: Euclidean geometry requires the definition of a point as a
)) non-dimensional object, that is, it does not have any length, width,
)) breadth, or temporal magnitude. But an infinite number of points placed
)) between any two non-coincident points does have a dimension, that of
)) length. How a bunch (even an infinite bunch) of zero-length points can add
)) up to something with length is never covered in Geometry, it is believed to
)) be true without any proof. Take away that axiom and all of Euclidean
)) geometry falls on it's arse.
)
)He will only fall on his arse after passing an infinite amount of points.
)(see Zeno)
Again, you make smart-ass comments, but neither refute nor agree with the
conjecture. how common.
)) ) anonymous wrote:
)) )) Schizophrenia is a disease caused by imbalances of neurotransmitters.
))
)) )Oh yeah? Pretty much everything is caused by an imbalance of
)) )neurotransmitter. (If everything were balanced it would probably mean we
)) )were experiencing heat death [grin].
))
)) No, you can have balance (x% of Serotonin, vs y% of dopamine) and not be
)) balanced at zero. "Caused" is not a good verb here IMHO, it is entirely
)) possible that something else is causing both the imbalance and the
)) schizophrenia.
)
)The relationship of your response to my sentence escapes me. I was
)referring to the balance (ironical here) when a system's energy reaches zero
)(heat death), an equilibrium of sorts.
Yes, and you were implying that the probable reality of a balanced system
is one balanced at zero. (I know you didn't _say_ it, I state you imply
it.) This is like the libertarian who says that he _IS_ in favor of a flat
tax, provided the tax rate is zero. A system may be balanced at points
other than zero.
)) )Does thinking cause this imbalance,
))
)) Possibly, but not likely. otherwise, people who thought similar thoughts
)) over and over would cause within themselves a similar mental disorder....
)
)Too simplistic an answer and straw man to bother with.
)
))
)) Hmm, now that I think about it, perhaps AS *could* be considered a
)) communicable mental disorder transmitted by sloppy thinking. A meme
)) disease.
)
)You must have read Snow Crash.
I have.
)) )does a virus, or how about DNA?
))
)) Each is possible, more research is needed. This is the quintessential
)) difference between belief and proof. Belief can proceed from zero evidence
)) (and often does better in situations where no information is avail from the
)) normal five senses) Whereas proof has a higher standard.
)
)thanks for the expert _opinion_.
Are you just going to put me down, or do you have a definition of belief
and proof to share with us?
Kevin Houston
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n983.6 ---------------
From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: About High School
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 20:43:36 +0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: (199811182222.OAA03800 lists1.best.com)
Debra Snell (snell netshel.net) wrote:
)In the USA, perhaps a good place to begin is with AWSNA. They should
)_require_ AWSNA member schools to perform exit interviews with parents who
)withdrawl their children from Waldorf.
I know of UK schools where this has been tried. It falls down on a
statistical basis for on important reason: the parents who accept the
offer (one obviously cannot impose this on a parent!) of an exit
interview are a self-selected group. This could skew the results either
way -- parents who withdraw their children for "non-antagonistic"
reasons may feel that there is no need, since they had no pressing
complaints; parents who withdraw their children in anger or upset may
feel that the last thing they want is to have anything more to do with
the school, even an interview with a neutral party.
Although the statistics gleaned from these would be suspect, they do
have the potential, if the views expressed are forthright, to indicate
to the school where some parents may feel it is failing.
However, I think a lot more than that (exit interview) needs to be done.
In the UK the Waldorf schools are developing codes of practice (three
levels: good practice; better practice; best practice) to cover things
from hiring staff, to pupil admissions procedure, to health and safety
policies, to conflict resolution, and many stops in between. My opinion
is that this process is long overdue -- having decent, *visible* systems
and procedures can save a lot of grief for all concerned (as long as
they are followed!).
I don't know if AWSNA have, or are developing, such codes of practice --
I suppose anyone interested could ask them.
)How do Waldorf officials know that Waldorf does what it claims to do? Is
)there any measurement currently used? If so, what is that?
This is another area that desperately needs to be addressed (IMHO, of
course) -- all we really seem to have, on both sides of the divide, are
anecdotes and personal experiences. Again, this is a process of self-
selection. It's not entirely useless, however -- from the point of view
of those of us who support Waldorf education, the negative anecdotes
offer us the opportunity to re-evaluate that which we *think* is good
and to identify areas in which we could improve -- and that is a lesson
I wish I had learned long ago!
As for now, I'll creep back into the workshop and try (yet again) to
keep my cursor from the "Reply" button except on matters of science
education (or, better by far, astronomy (g)) ...
--
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+ Stephen Tonkin | ATM Resources; Astro-Tutorials; Astronomy Books +
+ (N50.9105 W1.829) | (http://www.aegis1.demon.co.uk) +
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n983.7 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Main Lesson Time (Or don't teach your grandpa to suck eggs)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 16:35:22 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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References: (199811170935.BAA24439 lists1.best.com)
(199811171841.KAA02566 lists1.best.com) (199811192027.MAA17053 lists1.best.com)
Kevin Houston wrote:
) )regardless of the logic involved. Moreover, in a dialogue, unless narrowly
) )defined, an example is fertile ground for straw men.
)
) Construct as many as you like, I will strike them all down as I have your
) other ones.
Perhaps you might read a little about straw men. In this case, a poor example allows a critic to adduce all manner of obviously wrong rationales, or straw men. They are straw men because they do not best represent the argument and yet they are dispatched as proof of its inferiority. So here it would mean someone would be striking them down from your example.
) I was not addressing your point that paranoia is vague, because I happen to
) agree with it. the clinical definition of paranoia is still, IMHO, too
) blurry to be discussed by someone like myself (and I suspect you) who has
) little or no training in psychology. Besides, your remark was rhetorical
) (by your own admission, and therefore not worth responding to)
So we are in agreement here.
)Generally, the paranoid's problem is not one of logical
) )ability, but of normative capacity. In your example, the paranoids belief
) )in the conceivability of space aliens is juxtaposed by your skepticism. My
) )point is this paranoid is conceiving rationally, but since his belief system
) )is haywire his conclusion is (presumably) invalid.
)
) So to paraphrase, when you state "this paranoid is conceiving rationally"
) this means that the thought process is internally self consistent... and
) "since his belief system is haywire his conclusion is (presumably)
) invalid." means that it bears little relationship to reality. So finally
) you agree.
My impression here is that you are taking me literally still. You argue the paranoid's thinking (internally consistent, whatever) bears no relationship to reality with regard to conclusion. I was saying, and still maintain, reality and paranoid thinking are not separated by function alone. The processes involved are the same. All of reality is (at _least_) internally consistent (to the extent allowed by Godel and his logical thugs), is it not? Perhaps there is subtlety here I am not fit to
describe.
) Or have I quoted you out of context? I don't think so, but I
) doubt you can admit that someone other than yourself is right.
I did not know that was the issue. Why don't you just call me chicken? (grin)
) )
) )Did I say inconsistent theory?? Nope, I know what the name is, I was
) )describing it's impact on natural systems (eg set theory).
)
) And doing so badly.
) Incompleteness has nothing to do with inconsistence.
) Incompleteness means a lack of evidence, inconsistent means the evidence
) you do have contradicts itself. They have nothing to do with each other.
Well, I tell you what, where did you learn about Godel and logic, is it from reading Scientific American? How about formal education, or was it some graduate students paper you found on the web? I am fairly confident as to the scholarship of my references. Are you? You claim a great deal of expertise.
)
) )Where do you get a single axiom? I think there are like 3 or 4 for math,
)
) Please take the time to read more carefully, I said (and even stressed it
) with underline) -- "require _at least one_ axiom" this means that more can
) be used, but that this is the minimum.
You still haven't explained where you get one from, how about a citation? I also recall the operative phrase was 'sufficiently complex' which has ramifications of its own. But this might have to wait till I can research the matter.
) You said "...something not derivable (provable) and therefore
) inconsistent," Where did you get the conclusion of inconsistency from?
) Just because something is believed without proof, does not make it
) inconsistent. I think you may have a language problem here.
If I cared enough about your education, it might be worthwhile to explain the relationships involved. But I do not, though I tutored logic in College. I think you may have developmental problems here.
) )And your definition of axiom is misleading. Generally axioms have generous
) )amounts of evidence (especially if you are going by PLANS requirements), but
) )they _cannot_ be proven.
)
) Please state what evidence exists for dimensionless points (an example of a
) well known axiom which has no evidence.) On the contrary, it is _your_
) definition of axiom which is lacking. Most axioms are designed to restrict
) the discussion to a specific situation which is generally simpler, and
) therefore easier to analyze. We would have had a difficult time learning
) the rules of geometry if we had to do so in the hyperbolic space of the
) real universe, rather than the simple plane of Euclid.
I am sending your snipe to my friend. Since he is teaching as well as a student, I cannot say when he will have time to address your geometric concerns.
) I note you do not refute either of these axioms, nor do you refute the
) conclusion; may one assume then that you agree? (not bloody likely). In
) contrast to your philosophy, I _always_ question my assumptions. I have
) learned from a long career in programming, that the section of code which
) you *know* to be correct beyond any need of checking, contains the bug.
What do you code for (language, application, platform?)
) )He will only fall on his arse after passing an infinite amount of points.
) )(see Zeno)
)
) Again, you make smart-ass comments, but neither refute nor agree with the
) conjecture. how common.
I won't respond to something simply because it is stated.
) Yes, and you were implying that the probable reality of a balanced system
) is one balanced at zero. (I know you didn't _say_ it, I state you imply
) it.) This is like the libertarian who says that he _IS_ in favor of a flat
) tax, provided the tax rate is zero. A system may be balanced at points
) other than zero.
I challenge you to find an equilibrium 'point' in something as complex as our brain. Again, you simplify to the point of irrelevance. Moreover, chaotic systems (like our brain) have an equilibrium surrounding a strange attractor, so there is no single equilibrium point, but rather an infinite amount of equilibrium points.
) )
) )You must have read Snow Crash.
)
) I have.
Generally, one does not take credit for (or appear to conceive of) concepts one does not conceive of.
)
) )thanks for the expert _opinion_.
)
) Are you just going to put me down, or do you have a definition of belief
) and proof to share with us?
)
I pointed out the role of speculation in your passage and its relationship to opinion. I think you understood this as you seem to indicate same in your opening missive.
e
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n983 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n984 --------------
001 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Main Lesson Time (Or don't teach your grandpa to suck eggs
002 - SINGERCARP aol.com - Re: Reply to Nazi's Enemy #1 (anonumous)
003 - SINGERCARP aol.com - Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
004 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - definitions
005 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - study or advocacy of new religious movements
006 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: Reply to Nazi's Enemy #1 (anonumous)
007 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Reply to Nazi's Enemy #1 (anonymous)
008 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: Reply to Nazi's Enemy #1 (anonymous)
009 - Kevin Houston (khouston o - Re: Metadebate
010 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Reply to Nazi's Enemy #1 (anonymous)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n984.1 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Main Lesson Time (Or don't teach your grandpa to suck eggs)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 02:11:28 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199811170935.BAA24439 lists1.best.com)
(199811171841.KAA02566 lists1.best.com)
(199811192027.MAA17053 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199811200040.QAA27075 lists1.best.com)
This thread seem to be degenerating into a personal pissing match. Please
bring it back on-topic.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n984.2 ---------------
From: SINGERCARP aol.com
Subject: Re: Reply to Nazi's Enemy #1 (anonumous)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 15:13:58 EST
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Ezra wrote:
)I truly wish people on this list subscribed to any notion of responsible
speech.(
I wish list masters would prevent mails offending the readers's dignity
through
their form (contents is an other issue) and not forward them instead using
their
own address.
Tom Singer-Carpenter
Switzerland/Germany
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n984.3 ---------------
From: SINGERCARP aol.com
Subject: Re: The Nazis' Enemy No. 1
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 14:59:10 EST
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Dan Dugan wrote on November 16. 1998 11:55:47:
)The Anthroposophical Society was banned in 1935 [exchange of letters
)between Gestapo and Reichs Ministry of Education between October and
)December of 1935 (File 7, pp. 177, 178, 273)] [Leschinsky].
)New admissions to all private schools (aimed mainly at Catholic schools)
)were banned beginning with the school year 1936-37, though implementation
)at the Waldorf schools was delayed due to the abovementioned intervention
)of Hess
)"In November 1937, an inspection of Waldorf schools was carried out by a
)commission made up of representatives of the Party Chancellory, the
)Ministry of Education, Rosenberg's office, and the National Socialist
)Teachers' Union, thus bringing the situation to a head. (Letter from Reichs
)Ministry of Education to Administerial Presidents of the affected areas
)dated November 1, 1937 [files 5 and 10]. As early as February, 1938, a
)decision was made to retain some Waldorf schools as experimental schools
)under reliable administration and based upon National Socialist principles.
)The intent was to establish whether these principles of education, not to
)mention their practical successes, were compatible with the philosophy of
)the new German empire" [Leschinsky, trans. p. 20]
)In March, 1938 the Stuttgart school was closed by regional authorities. The
)schools' association fragmented. Breslau and Kassel closed at Easter, 1939.
)Dresden, Hamburg-Wandsbek and Hannover continued as experimental
)schools in 1939.The Nazi argument
who are you quoting? Leschinsky, a Nazi source or ...
)in favor of Waldorf schools had four points:
)1) That Anthroposophy and Waldorf education grew from "'the wellspring of
)true German thinking,' from the mystical through to the world of
)imagination of Goethe and the Romanticists, thus distinguishing itself by
)its very nature from Western influences."
)2) That based on his 1915 pamphlet "Wartime Reflections" which identified
)themes closely identified with Naziism,
by who?
Steiner was the "Prophet of the
)Necessary Self-Defense and the Mission of the German People".
)3) That Naziism and Anthroposophy were both anti-materialistic and
)anti-Marxist.
(sounds to me like: brown and pink are both non-green)
)4) That Waldorf schools supported Naziism by virtue of an overall
)anti-individualistic orientation.
Do you really intend to claim that Waldorf schools have an
anti-individualistic orientation? All that follows falls with this.
)"If the Waldorf schools can 'guarantee'
)to produce a citizenry which can be relied upon to place itself at the
)disposal of the nation without reservations, then this is attributable only
)to the schools' consistent ability to reject rationalism and
)intellectualism." This is manifested through the inclusion of music and
)practical subjects in the curriculum, but "it is rather more a case of the
)specific method of instruction itself which engages students beyond the
)realm of the 'abstract-intellectual', thus exerting a direct influence upon
)the childrens' will...
I am surprised that after our last dispute about critical thinking you still
get into this theme.
You have not yet defined what your concept of critical thinking is.
You have acknowledged that there is an age where an intellectual approach
is too early in pedagogy, but you admitted that you didn't know when the
right age was.
)This last argument appears to have proven particularly
)effective in convincing state educational authorities that one result of
)dismantling the Rudolf Steiner Schools would be the loss of institutions
)which otherwise would have served as important model facilities..." (for
)mind control).
An interesting, sort of bumpy train of thoughts, full of assumptions and based
on a wrong starting-point.
)The Hannover school closed on Easter 1940, largely due to economic
)problems. Wandsbek closed in 1940 when teachers were drafted. Dresden
)closed in 1941
Are you REALLY trying to state that drafting and lack of financial resources
were the cause of the closing of Waldorf schools? I hope none of my friends
who were imprisoned for being teachers at Waldorf schools ever reads this.
)after Hess' flight to England enraged Hitler, resulting in a
)purge of Nazi occultists. Several teachers were imprisoned for
)Anthroposophical activities.
Didn't you use Hess earlier as an example of main Nazi figures supporting
Waldorf education?
Couldn't you find any other famous Nazi names in favor of Waldorf
than poor old Hess who was scolded by Hitler for secretly jumping off
an air plane over England?
(Did you know that Helmut Kohl's son is a Waldorf alumni? Just use the
same logic on him...)
)In Waldorf, the story has been simplified: "The first thing Hitler did
)regarding schools when he took over was to close every Waldorf school in
)Germany and other parts of Europe he occupied. They were a threat to his
)brain-washing, conformity mentality." [Linda Sharp, letter to Anchorage
)Council of PTA's, December 20, 1993.]
In Waldorf circles, the theme has been discussed in a controversial way for
decades. I could refer to countless recent books and articles.
One of many examples are the two sources that you used yourself:
1.)"Flensburger Hefte", special edition about the theme (WS and NS) -
an Anthroposophical monthly magazine! Many German Waldorf teachers are
subscribers.
2.)Leschinsky, Achim. "Waldorfschulen im Nationalsozialismus."
Neue Sammlung Vol. 13 (1983), p. 255.] also published in "Flensbuger Hefte".
How can you use anthroposophical publications that investigate the context
between national socialism and Anthroposophy and then say things are not
being looked at in a critical way? On which bases can you call the dealing
with N.S. simplified, using a letter that you found? Who is simplifying here?
)You see from the above history how this is a self-serving myth. In fact,
)the brain-washing character of Waldorf pedagogy was one of the arguments
)used by the Nazis who favoured it.
You see what I see in the above.
I hope to have contributed to the clarification and counteracted what I
experience as a new brain-washing tendency used by PLANS.
If have read several intelligent contributions from Dan Dugan.
If the methods revealed in the above answered letter are the new standard, I
feel we are losing an important element: founded criticism.
Tom Singer-Carpenter
Switzerland/Germany
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n984.4 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: definitions
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 12:26:30 -0800
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A couple of months ago, I posted the following note to a discussion on the
Anthroposophia list:
***
In this discussion, some Anthroposophia subscribers are in favor of a
dictionary of Anthroposohical terms, and some resist the idea of defining
anything.
Once, in a meeting at the Twin Ridges Alternative Charter School, parents
asked the faculty to define Anthroposophy. The reply was "To define
Anthroposophy would be to kill it."
In my opinion at that particular place and time it would have been
appropriate to define Anthroposophy, and thus to kill it in that context.
Anthroposophy should not have been present in that particular place and
time, a publicly-funded charter school.
If the teachers had been honest and courageous enough to have explained
their spiritual motivations directly, the parents would have been able to
explain to the teachers that their spirituality was incompatible with
activities supported by involuntary funding, i.e. taxes. Perhaps then the
matter could have been resolved and it would not have been necessary to
form PLANS and sue the school district.
***
Curiously, in the 27 further posts on this thread, no one commented on my
post. Maybe it was just so final that there was nothing else to say. Maybe
it was so trivial there was nothing worthwhile to say about it. Or maybe
there was a directive to the list minus one to ignore yours truly.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n984.5 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: study or advocacy of new religious movements
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 12:39:14 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
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There's a controversy in academia over relationships with New Religious
Movements (NRMs). See the article summary at:
http://www.gospelcom.net/apologia/mainpages/WhatsNews/Beit-Hallahmi/Beit2.html
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n984.6 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Reply to Nazi's Enemy #1 (anonumous)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 13:08:04 -0700
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On 20 Nov 98, at 15:13, SINGERCARP aol.com wrote:
) Ezra wrote:
) )I truly wish people on this list subscribed to any notion of responsible
) speech.(
)
) I wish list masters would prevent mails offending the readers's dignity
) through their form (contents is an other issue) and not forward them
) instead using their own address.
I'm not sure what you mean by this.
There have been posts here that have offended my dignity,
personally, through their form. I'm referring to personal insults. But
I am glad that the list is "free," and that people can post what they
like. Although I intensely dislike being insulted, I figure that such
posts reflect much more poorly on the poster than on the recipient
of the insult.
But I don't know what you mean by "not forward them instead using
their own address."
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum."
(A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.)
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n984.7 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Reply to Nazi's Enemy #1 (anonymous)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 13:35:04 -0800
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The passage confused me as well. I've read and re-read it multiple times trying to worm my way through it. And my two cents are:
I too enjoy the "free" ness of this list, and I commend Dan for providing such. The insults generally do not bother me, although I do wish they were a wee tad more clever. Most are simply unimaginative.
Still, I wish I were dealing with people capable and willing to bear the responsibility of their expression.
(my wish is for a self selected group of people, not an imposed order)
e
Steve Premo wrote:
) On 20 Nov 98, at 15:13, SINGERCARP aol.com wrote:
)
) ) Ezra wrote:
) ) )I truly wish people on this list subscribed to any notion of responsible
) ) speech.(
) )
) ) I wish list masters would prevent mails offending the readers's dignity
) ) through their form (contents is an other issue) and not forward them
) ) instead using their own address.
)
) I'm not sure what you mean by this.
)
) There have been posts here that have offended my dignity,
) personally, through their form. I'm referring to personal insults. But
) I am glad that the list is "free," and that people can post what they
) like. Although I intensely dislike being insulted, I figure that such
) posts reflect much more poorly on the poster than on the recipient
) of the insult.
)
) But I don't know what you mean by "not forward them instead using
) their own address."
)
) Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
) "Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum."
) (A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.)
) http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n984.8 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Reply to Nazi's Enemy #1 (anonymous)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 14:09:33 -0700
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On 20 Nov 98, at 13:35, Ezra Beeman wrote:
) Still, I wish I were dealing
) with people capable and willing to bear the responsibility of their
) expression.
Now I'm confused again. What do you mean by "bear the
responsibility of their expression?"
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum."
(A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.)
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n984.9 ---------------
From: Kevin Houston (khouston onel.com)
Subject: Re: Metadebate
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 16:13:05 -0600
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References: (199811170935.BAA24439 lists1.best.com)
(199811171841.KAA02566 lists1.best.com)
(199811192027.MAA17053 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199811200040.QAA27075 lists1.best.com)
Dan dugan observes (rightly so IMHO)
)This thread seem to be degenerating into a personal pissing match. Please
)bring it back on-topic.
Then let me bring it back on track, by pointing out the AS debate method.
This is what has me so pissed to use Dan's wording.
It is part of the AS debate method to lift out of context from quantum
physics and speculative math and then make metaphysical connections. Of
course, they manage to "baffle with bullshit" rather than "dazzle with
brilliance" as much as possible, only because very few people understand
this stuff. The point I take after 6 months or so, (and really about 25
years of experience, because these types have always been with us...sigh)
is that they pull this game when on the defensive. He (and other AS
supporters) will never address the *real* issues. This is all depressingly
similar to Democratic "former Federal prosecutors" defending Clinton: deny,
distract, defame. Even if you manage to score on them intellectually, they
will then retreat to ethical superiority and "can't be bothered with
arguing with you, because you are so deficient."
As example, I point to the recent discussion Ezra and I were having about
Anonymous's musings on paranoia. (Please note, this gets into painstaking
detail, with comments throughout, and since I am still a little peeved, you
will note a rather harsh tone. I make no apology for this, and will try to
avoid making any direct ad hominem attacks.
))) Anonymous worte:
)))) Paranoia is the building of internally
)))) consistent systems that have little, slight, or no relation to reality.
Ezra replies:
)))Seems rather clinical to me. What is it like if your paranoid?
)))BTW How can something be internally consistent and bear no relationship
)))to reality?
So Ezra's objection to Anonymous's definition starts with a disguised
attack (suggesting that Anonymous is paranoid,) and then goes on to attack
the definition of paranoia by asking how something can be internally
consistent, and bear no relationship to reality?
Kevin responded thusly:
)) An example: A person keeps little balls of tin foil in a box under their
)) bed, they claim that it keeps the space aliens away. When it is pointed
)) out that there are no space aliens, the response is that the little box is
)) working.
This was, IMHO a straightforward example to a simple question. The
supposed (by Ezra) inability of anonymous to come up with an answer, would,
(in Ezra's argument) negate Anonymous's definition of paranoia. The fact
that I came up with one must have irked him no end.
to which Ezra responds:
)You might forego giving examples when possible, unless it is a common or
well known example. Giving a
)poor example tends to weaken one's argument, regardless of the logic
involved. Moreover, in a dialogue,
)unless narrowly defined, an example is fertile ground for straw men.
Notice the introduction of a new thread, straw men and rhetorical decorum.
I am not surprised that AS
supporters (I could make a new abbreviation here, but that would be baiting
}:-) ) do not like examples,
but examples are a great way to argue, because they bring it down to an
understandable level.
Ezra then continues to re-phrase Kevin's thesis, while denying that he
agrees with it.
)Generally,
)the paranoid's problem is not one of logical ability, but of normative
capacity. In your example, the
)paranoids belief in the conceivability of space aliens is juxtaposed by
your skepticism. My point is this
)paranoid is conceiving rationally, but since his belief system is haywire
his conclusion is (presumably)
)invalid.
So Kevin called him on it.
)) So to paraphrase, when you state "this paranoid is conceiving rationally"
)) this means that the thought process is internally self consistent... and
)) "since his belief system is haywire his conclusion is (presumably)
)) invalid." means that it bears little relationship to reality. So finally
)) you agree.
To which Ezra begins to wiggle all the more:
)My impression here is that you are taking me literally still. You argue the
)paranoid's thinking (internally consistent, whatever) bears no relationship
)to reality with regard to conclusion. I was saying, and still maintain,
)reality and paranoid thinking are not separated by function alone. The
)processes involved are the same. All of reality is (at _least_) internally
)consistent (to the extent allowed by Godel and his logical thugs), is it
)not? Perhaps there is subtlety here I am not fit to
)describe.
Now this is a really interesting statement. Firstly, Ezra complains that I
am taking him literally; that is, he complains that I read his words, and
respond to what is written, rather than respond to something else (what
that something else might be, I have no idea, perhaps he expects me to use
my supersense to interpret what is meant.)
Next, he restates my position quite adequately, and goes off on a wild tangent:
)I was saying, and still maintain, reality and paranoid thinking are not
)separated by function alone. The processes involved are the same.
Now he says that "reality and paranoid thinking are not separated by
function alone." Leaving the conclusion that they are separated by other
things as well. Then he says that "The processes involved are the same."
You must make up your mind Ezra, either they are the same, or they are not.
But even this misses the real logical crime here, which is trying to
compare reality to a diseased mental process. Talk about comparing apples
and oranges, Of course reality is nothing like paranoid thinking.
Note how far afield we have come from the original assertion of Anonymous,
to wit:
)))) Paranoia is the building of internally
)))) consistent systems that have little, slight, or no relation to reality.
Anonymous is comparing the paranoid's worldview (internally consistent
systems) to the commonly held worldview (reality.) While Ezra twists this
to compare paranoid thinking (the _process_ of building the worldview) to
the commonly held worldview (reality). It is not surprising then, that
this becomes confusing to the point of not being worth responding to. A
prime example of distraction.
Notice that in all of this, Ezra never comes back to a definition of
paranoia, never acknowledges the example that is internally consistent, and
bears little relationship to reality, constantly shifts the point of
discussion to other things, and when all else fails, is not above the
occasional ad hominem attack.
This, IMHO, is consistent with the debating style of most WE people. Deny,
distract, defame.
----Now please forgive me while I make a smart-assed comment of my own---------
Kevin:
)) Or have I quoted you out of context? I don't think so, but I
)) doubt you can admit that someone other than yourself is right.
Ezra:
)I did not know that was the issue. Why don't you just call me chicken? (grin)
Kevin:(because I just cannot help myself)
I would Ezra, but that would be a disservice to chickens everywhere. (deadpan)
-------End smart-assed comment---------------------
Now we get into the meat of Ezra's mis-statement on GodÎl, rather than
admit he made a rather simple-minded mistake and misapplied GodÎl's
theorem, he is doggedly trying to defend the point.
)) Ezra:
)) )Did I say inconsistent theory?? Nope, I know what the name is, I was
)) )describing it's impact on natural systems (eg set theory).
)Kevin:
)) And doing so badly.
))
)) Incompleteness has nothing to do with inconsistence.
)) Incompleteness means a lack of evidence, inconsistent means the evidence
)) you do have contradicts itself. They have nothing to do with each other.
)
)Well, I tell you what, where did you learn about Godel and logic, is it from
)reading Scientific American? How about formal education, or was it some
)graduate students paper you found on the web? I am fairly confident as to
)the scholarship of my references. Are you? You claim a great deal of
)expertise.
Let's see, this last statement breaks down into the following: From Ezra to me.
)where did you learn about Godel and logic, is it from reading Scientific
American?
translation - "You are an idiot who gets all his science info from a
popular magazine."
)How about formal education, or was it some graduate students paper you
found on the web?
translation - "You are an uneducated idiot who plagiarizes off the web."
)I am fairly confident as to the scholarship of my references. Are you?
)You claim a great deal of expertise.
(just to set the record straight, I never _claimed_ to be any kind of
expert, I simply corrected your mis-statements about GodÎl's theory, and
your attempts to mis-apply them to philosophy, and metaphysics)
translation - "I know more about this than you, and I can prove it. You
are a charlatan."
Well, shucks Ezra, you caught me. As a matter of fact, I _did_ read about
GodÎl in Sci-Am http://www.sciam.com/1998/0398issue/0398profile.html
I fail to see however, what that has to do with you mis-stating GodÎl's 2nd
incompleteness theory as proving that all sufficiently complex systems are
inconsistent. (It does not as you will see below)
But, since you are an expert on GodÎl, please enlighten us poor benighted
fools and tell us dear sir, what is GodÎl's theorem that shows (and I quote)
))systems of sufficient complexity are necessarily inconsistent. A well
know[n]
))thesis of Kurt Godel, and the foundation of axiomatic mathematics).
Please dip into that formal education of yours, and show us this proof. I
won't ask you to show that it is the _foundation_ for axiomatic
mathematics, because that would require you to show how the subject was
developed by GodÎl prior to GodÎl's birth. But perhaps you should, this
sounds like a wonderful springboard for all sorts of AS musings like
reincarnation etc.
Ezra said:
)I am fairly confident as to the scholarship of my references.
So now is the time to put up or shut up. please enlighten us, or at least
post a web URL.
You also asked
)Are you? [confident of your scholarship]
I am, this is the page which IMHO best describes GodÎl's work in terms
which a layman might hope to comprehend. As well as shows it's relation to
other mathematicians
http://www.math.hawaii.edu/~dale/godel/godel.html
Please note that there _IS_ a theorem attributed to Mr. GodÎl which
mentions inconsistency, but this theory, rather than showing that all such
systems are necessarily _inconsistent_, shows that you cannot _prove_ that
they are consistent. This is quite another matter. Again, absence of
evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because we cannot prove (within
that system) that the system is consistent, does not necessarily prove that
it is inconsistent.
Dale Myers (associate Professor of mathematics) wrote: (at above mentioned URL)
) Godel's Second Incompleteness Theorem: In any consistent axiomatizable
) theory (axiomatizable means the axioms can be computably generated)
) which can encode sequences of numbers (and thus the syntactic notions
) of "formula", "sentence", "proof") the consistency of the system in
) question is not provable in the system.
)Kevin:
)) You [Ezra] said "...something not derivable (provable) and therefore
)) inconsistent," Where did you get the conclusion of inconsistency from?
)) Just because something is believed without proof, does not make it
)) inconsistent. I think you may have a language problem here.
)Ezra:
)If I cared enough about your education, it might be worthwhile to explain
)the relationships involved. But I do not, though I tutored logic in
)College. I think you may have developmental problems here.
Again, when confronted with an obvious mistake in language (confusing
provable with consistent) resorts to ad hominem attack (questioning my
development)
))Ezra:
)) )And your definition of axiom is misleading. Generally axioms have generous
)) )amounts of evidence (especially if you are going by PLANS
requirements), but
)) )they _cannot_ be proven.
))
)) Please state what evidence exists for dimensionless points (an example of a
)) well known axiom which has no evidence.) On the contrary, it is _your_
)) definition of axiom which is lacking. Most axioms are designed to restrict
)) the discussion to a specific situation which is generally simpler, and
)) therefore easier to analyze. We would have had a difficult time learning
)) the rules of geometry if we had to do so in the hyperbolic space of the
)) real universe, rather than the simple plane of Euclid.
)
)I am sending your snipe to my friend. Since he is teaching as well as a
)student, I cannot say when he will have time to address your geometric
)concerns.
My concerns are not with Geometry, but with your constant Sophist (not in
the AS sense) attempts to confuse the issue to your own advantage.
)Kevin:
)) Yes, and you were implying that the probable reality of a balanced system
)) is one balanced at zero. (I know you didn't _say_ it, I state you imply
)) it.) This is like the libertarian who says that he _IS_ in favor of a flat
)) tax, provided the tax rate is zero. A system may be balanced at points
)) other than zero.
)
)I challenge you to find an equilibrium 'point' in something as complex as
)our brain. Again, you simplify to the point of irrelevance. Moreover,
)chaotic systems (like our brain) have an equilibrium surrounding a strange
)attractor, so there is no single equilibrium point, but rather an infinite
)amount of equilibrium points.
If the amount of equilibrium points is infinite, then pointing to just one
of them is a trivial task. I never said (nor did Anonymous) that there was
just one equilibrium point, it was you who implied such with your
heat-death quip.
Now, on to Ezra's accusation that I plagiarized something from Snow Crash.
) Ezra:
) )Does thinking cause this imbalance, [in neuro-transmitters)
)Kevin:
) Possibly, but not likely. otherwise, people who thought similar thoughts
) over and over would cause within themselves a similar mental disorder....
)
) Hmm, now that I think about it, perhaps AS *could* be considered a
) communicable mental disorder transmitted by sloppy thinking. A meme
) disease.
))Ezra:
)) )
)) )You must have read Snow Crash.
))Kevin:
)) I have.
)
)Generally, one does not take credit for (or appear to conceive of) concepts
)one does not conceive of.
Translated, this statement says "You stole the idea of AS being a
communicable meme disease from Snow Crash"
Please note the entire thread, I did not "appear to conceive of" the idea
of a meme disease, I "appear to conceive of" the idea that _AS_ is a meme
disease. Subtle difference, to be sure, but true nonetheless.
Kevin Houston.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n984.10 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Reply to Nazi's Enemy #1 (anonymous)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 15:18:49 -0800
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References: (199811202212.OAA20813 lists1.best.com)
Without getting into alot of detail, to bear the responsibility of one's expression is take credit for it and honor the freedom of information.
Why is there an expected freedom to speak anonymously when there is no expected freedom to know the identity of the speaker, or know the the identity of those being described. As is often the case, one person's freedom is generally at the expense of someone else's freedom.
Freedom is not a one way street, and although I have asked this before on this list: why is freedom from not the same as freedom to (from A Handmaiden's Tale).
We do not operate in a vacuum, and thus each persons freedom must be balanced against all the others. This may seem like a recipe for a totalitarian state, it is not. What it is, IMHO, is a call for vigilance against those political factions (a curious example of the collective) seeking to use freedom to their own ends.
e
PS In the pre-ramble I use the term, freedom of information. It would not surprise me in the least if at some point in the future, collections of information are given said right (a la W. Gibson). They will probably be AI (artificial intelligence), who are but the endmost of the information continuum.
e
Steve Premo wrote:
) On 20 Nov 98, at 13:35, Ezra Beeman wrote:
)
) ) Still, I wish I were dealing
) ) with people capable and willing to bear the responsibility of their
) ) expression.
)
) Now I'm confused again. What do you mean by "bear the
) responsibility of their expression?"
)
) Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
) "Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum."
) (A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.)
) http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n984 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n985 --------------
001 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: Reply to Nazi's Enemy #1 (anonymous)
002 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - as promised
003 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: definitions
004 - Kathy (spike netshel.net) - Pedantry and boorishness
005 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - childhood immunizations
006 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - Beeman's tyranny (Was Re: Reply to Nazi's Enemy #1 (anonymous)
007 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - How fare Waldorf transfers to other schools? [long]
008 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: childhood immunizations
009 - BruceyJ aol.com - Re: definitions
010 - BruceyJ aol.com - Re: Metadebate
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n985.1 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Reply to Nazi's Enemy #1 (anonymous)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 15:55:28 -0700
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In-Reply-To: (199811202322.PAA14697 lists1.best.com)
On 20 Nov 98, at 15:18, Ezra Beeman wrote:
) Without getting into alot of detail, to bear the responsibility of one's
) expression is take credit for it and honor the freedom of information. Why
) is there an expected freedom to speak anonymously when there is no
) expected freedom to know the identity of the speaker, or know the the
) identity of those being described.
Oh, so you're specifically referring to anonymous posts, and you
feel that when one posts anonymously, one is not taking
responsibility for one's expression.
Second, you are referring to discussing a situation in which the
parties are not identified. You feel that this is also a failure to take
responsibility for one's expression.
Do I have that right?
So in the case of our anonymous poster, who claims that he would
be subject to harassment and financial hardship if it were known in
his community that he was making these statements about the
local school, what do you think would be the responsible course of
action? Either remain silent and refuse to share his insights, or
make his statements publicly and allow himself to be subjected to
various hardships? The former course would deprive us on his
ideas, and the latter course, while courageous, could have bad
consequences for his family.
Personally, I do not think it irresponsible, in this situation, for the
writer to make his statements anonymously, since we lack the
means to protect him from those who would do him harm for
making such statements (assuming that his story is true).
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum."
(A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.)
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n985.2 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: as promised
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 15:59:33 -0800
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Without comment.
e
PS Except to say Bret is the result of 13+ years of heavy WE. (grin)
Okay, it seems that there has been a mixup between inconsistent and
incompleteness. These things are VERY different. Yes, any *rich* system
(ie nontrivial, such as a system containing nothing) must be built on axioms
which cannot be proven and are taken as inherintly true. Of course these
things must be very basic for example in math the 7 axioms are (called
Zermelo-Frankel Axioms):
1)Extensionality - A set is uniquely determined by its members
2)Null set - There exists a set with no elements
3)Pairing - for every x,y there is aset whose elements are only x and y
4)Union - The union of any set exists
5)Power Set - The power set of any set exists
6)Infinity - there is an infinite set (eg the set of natural numbers0
7)Replacement - the range of a function applied to a set is a set
Most of math can be built on these 7 axioms, and sometimes onne other is
needed which is the axiom of choice. I don't want to get into the pros and
cons of the axiom of choice right now and probably have gotten sidetracked
anyway.
I'm not sure what you guys are actually arguing but it seems to be some idea
of Godel's incompletness theorem, which says that any consistent system is
incomplete. That is there are certain statements whose validity or
falseness cannot be determined for example the famous "continuum hypothesis"
cannot be determined. That is with the axioms given neither the truth of
the continuum hypothesis nor the negation of the continuum hypothesis can be
proven.
One thing I can say is that axioms are NOT supposed to restrict, they are
supposed to be most general. It seems there is a confusion between axioms
of euclidean geometry and other geometry. you can change the 4th axiom of
euclidean geoometry to have parallel lines intersect once and develop a
whole different geometry (hyperbollic) or say parallel lines intersects more
than once and get elliptical geometry.
Hope this clears things up more then it confuses things.
bret
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n985.3 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: definitions
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 16:44:04 -0800
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Dan wrote,
)Curiously, in the 27 further posts on this thread, no one commented on my
)post. Maybe it was just so final that there was nothing else to say. Maybe
)it was so trivial there was nothing worthwhile to say about it. Or maybe
)there was a directive to the list minus one to ignore yours truly.
It would have to have been minus two since I didn't receive a directive
either. Personally, I don't think list members on that list could care less
_who_ is reading. It is refreshing to see Anthroposophy out in the open -
without the defensiveness that occurs when you mix Waldorf with it.
Debra
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n985.4 ---------------
From: Kathy (spike netshel.net)
Subject: Pedantry and boorishness
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 19:13:54 -0800
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Kevin Houston posted (in part):
) Now this is a really interesting statement. Firstly, Ezra complains that I
) am taking him literally; that is, he complains that I read his words, and
) respond to what is written, rather than respond to something else (what
) that something else might be, I have no idea, perhaps he expects me to use
) my supersense to interpret what is meant.)
So you've had a taste of our dear Ezra! He slips and slides all over the
place and lays down a great deal of type with lustful Anthroposophical
bombast. He hurls big words and theories about and takes the time to
apply a thick layer of reference to his allegedly superior education
(lest we forget), all the while misspelling the simplest words and
giving no attention to grammatical detail. Truly, it's beneath him. He
particularly relishes jumping upon his mathematical soapbox and
demanding studies, statistics, surveys, et al, lavishing his pedantry
with references to straw men and our intellectual inferiority. When he's
feeling puny he threatens to refer matters of discussion to
acquaintances with far more education and intelligence than any of us
might have. We are so very small in Ezra's eyes. Why ever does he stoop
to speak with us?
But the thing that I like most about Ezra is that he's here. And for
that I am mighty grateful. By golly, he's the very best advertisement
PLANS could ever have to underscore our concerns about Waldorf
education. The proof is in the pudding. Yum, yum.
Jes a lil' woman with no real larnin'
Kathy
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n985.5 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: childhood immunizations
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 22:31:36 -0800
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The current issue of Renewal (...Journal for Waldorf Education Vol. 7 No.
2, Fall 1998) publishes an extraordinary letter to the editor from Babara
and Robert Timmons. They say (excerpts):
"We were dismayed by the misinformation in Dr. Incao's Article ('Childhood
Illnesses, Vaccination, and Child Health') in the Spring issue of Renewal.
Dr. Incao argues that immunization against measles, whooping cough, and
other childhood illnesses weakens the immune system and can cause serious
diseases such as asthma, cancer, diabetes, and inflammatory bowel disease.
"The article fails to support any of these sweeping conclusions, except a
possible connection between vaccination against measles and asthma, which
refers to a 1997 article in Science and a 1994 letter in the Journal of the
American Medical Association. There are no references and no recognition of
the existence of a huge body of scientific research demonstrating the
overall safety of immunizations, which have been used for over four decades
(two centuries in the case of smallpox)."
It is suggested that better information can be obtained from a web page of
the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention:
http://www.cdc.gov/nip/vacsafe/vaxsaft.htm
"The idea that we should allow children to be 'challenged' by serious
illnesses seems to arise from a Darwinian view, that is, that the strong
will survive and be strengthened. There is no 'rigorous scientific
thinking' here, but a set of unproven beliefs, which have apparently not
been updated since Rudolf Steiner proposed them seventy-five years ago. Can
we, as parents, educators, and physicians, accept the sufferings of the
children wo are unlucky enough not to survive the challenge?
"Barbara K. Timmons, Ph.D.
Robert J. Timmons, Ph.D.
Nashua, New Hampshire"
Renewal is to be commended for publishing this challenge to
Anthroposophical orthodoxy. The virtue of the act is diluted by their
giving double the column space of the Timmons' letter to a rebuttal from
Dr. Philip Incao. Incao says:
"Their assessment of my article, however, as based on a 'set of unproven
beliefs...apparently not..updated since Rudolf Steiner proposed the..."
betrays a serious misunderstanding of my method, and indeed of Steiner's
method, which is the same as my own though much more profound and more
broadly applied.
"This method of research, like all scientific research, is based on
observation and thinking, not unfounded belief. The late Nobel laureate
Albert Szent-Gy–rgyi defined scientific research as 'to see what everyone
else has seen and to think what nobody has thought.' This is how most
scientific progress is made. Some might call 'the thought that nobody has
thought' an unproven belief. Others, daring to look for truth in
unconventional places, might call it a hypothesis worthy of investigation."
***
"Isn't it time, now that fully 10% of all American children suffer with
asthma snd that in the past ten years prescriptions for Ritalin have
increased sixfold, that we give up -presuming- that vaccination benefits
outweigh risks and have the courage to evaluate the evidence impartially? I
would suggest to the Timmonses that their trust in the CDC Web site is
misplaced.
"If we look instead at the deteriorating health of our children--as I have
for over twenty-five years--the conclusion is inescapable that something is
terribly wrong with the CDC's conventional wisdom.
"Dissent from the prevailing wisdom is never well received, yet it is the
only way that progress in medicine, or in any field, has ever been made."
Thus Dr. Incao casts himself in the heroic light of a scientific pioneer,
though his logically fallacious ("post hoc, ergo propter hoc") reasoning
never reaches the standard of scientific discipline required for
publication in medical journals. Dr. Incao was formerly the staff physician
of a Camphill Village in New York State. He was the subject of an
investigation by the state medical board. He has relocated to Denver, CO,
where he practices under the shingle "Steiner Holistic Medicine."
I spoke with Barbara Timmons. She and her husband are Waldorf parents who
love the good qualities of Waldorf but abhor Anthroposophical medical
quackery and Steinerian mystical claptrap. They had not heard of PLANS or
had any previous contact with the international controversy about Waldorf
and Anthroposophy. They both work for an international organization
providing assistance in public health management (see http://www.msh.org).
-Dan Dugan
bcc: Barbara Timmons, Dr. Wally Sampson (Journal for the Scientific
Investigation of Alternative Medicine).
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From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: Beeman's tyranny (Was Re: Reply to Nazi's Enemy #1 (anonymous))
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 19:26:46 +1200
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Ezra Beeman says:
)Without getting into alot of detail, to bear the responsibility of one's
)expression is take credit for it and honor the freedom of information.
)Why is there an expected freedom to speak anonymously when there is no
)expected freedom to know the identity of the speaker, or know the the
)identity of those being described. As is often the case, one person's
)freedom is generally at the expense of someone else's freedom.
)Freedom is not a one way street, and although I have asked this before on
)this list: why is freedom from not the same as freedom to (from A
)Handmaiden's Tale).
)We do not operate in a vacuum, and thus each persons freedom must be
)balanced against all the others. This may seem like a recipe for a
)totalitarian state, it is not. What it is, IMHO, is a call for vigilance
)against those political factions (a curious example of the collective)
)seeking to use freedom to their own ends.
Did I miss something in my fourth grade civics lessons, back in 1950's
middle America?
I always thought the American freedoms were designed particularly for the
purpose of protecting "those political factions ... seeking to use freedom
to their own ends".
It seems to me that the opposite -- to require that "political factions" to
meet someone else's ends -- is fascism.
Indeed, Ezra's advice for "vigilance against those polictical factions"
sounds to me exactly like what he denies it is: totalitarian fascism.
Fascism is on the rise again, all over the world, even in supposedly
democratic countries like mine (America) and mine (New Zealand). And its
expression is seen, among other places, in the prescriptions of the
superior lot of self-delusional folk who call themselves well educated by
Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophical mumbo jumbo.
Beeman is talking like a typical SWA obfuscator ("freedome is not a one-way
street", whatever the hell that means), demeaner, and repressor.
I began my tenure on this list anonymously, for probably similar reasons to
why others have done so: fear of retribution from SWA authorities,
including acts against my children by teachers and school administrators. I
did not get this fear from reading the Waldorf Critics list; I got it from
other parents in our Steiner school, some who had been there since its
founding, who warned me against speaking openly either to the school, to
parents, or publicly. One of these people had done so, and his children
suffered at the hands of their teachers. I stopped being anonymous because
it became too much of an issue in itself, and I was "outed" by unscrupulous
SWA people with whom I had corresponded privately. I also made a conscious
decision to "go public" because I determined to take on our school
publicly. That decision did cost both me and my children, if not tangibly,
then emotionally.
I have no doubt that "anonymous" speaks with the truth of one who has
reason to fear.
It is interesting to me that there have been a number of people who have
posted anonymously from the side of the defenders of the SWA faith; none of
these have ever been subjected to the campaign of vilification and
denigration which Beeman is currently visiting upon "anonymous", either
from me, any other critic, or, most especially, from any defender of the
faith. No defender has ever impugned the motives or cast aspersions (like
Beeman's on "anonymous") on any _friend_ of Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophy.
The right to anonymous speech is as enshrined in the First Amendment, and
its judicial interpretation over 200-plus years, as is the right to public
speech.
I do not have the energy to further deconstruct Beeman's idiotic,
illiterate, ranting, and I'm not anywhere near as educated and smart as
Kevin Houston, who is doing an admirable job of exposing Beeman's trash
thinking for what it is.
Portecting freedoms involves a sacrifice: we all sacrifice some comfort on
our own part in order to allow dissent and disagreement. This is not, as
Beeman suggests above, "at the expense of someone else's freedom".
Sacrificing comfort is not sacrificing freedom. Saying so is a classical
McCarthyite demagogue's trick to suppress the original speaker who
challenges shibboleths and power and cant and ... mumbo jumbo.
There is an expected freedom to speak anonymously without an expected
freedom to know the speaker for the precise reason of preventing the
exercise of power over vulnerability. This IS the balance of one person's
freedom against all the rest of our freedom's but it's not the sort of
"balance" that Beeman is talking about above; that sounds more like the
"dictatorship of the proletariat".
Beeman has taken on some attitudes rather curiously antithetical to the
supposed freedom his Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophical education was
alleged to promote.
No cheers from Godzone this time, just a tocsin against tyranny -- in all
forms, in all endeavours, in all institutions, including Steiner/ Waldorf/
Anthroposophy.
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
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From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: How fare Waldorf transfers to other schools? [long]
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 19:50:52 +1200
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In-Reply-To: (199811192010.MAA05429 lists1.best.com)
The anonymous contributor to this list recently, and Deby and other critics
in the past, have questioned how Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophical
students fare when they are, for one reason or another, transferred to
another school (and, by extension, how they fare in tertiary education).
Anonymous, Deby, myself and most other critics have provided numerous
anecdotes regarding such transfers, from our personal experience with our
own children and from our knowledge of others.
None of this anecdotal evidence seems to cut any ice with any of the SWA
defenders of the faith [TM].
We live in a real world where the gross effects of our experiences are not
scientifically plotted. It remains for academics in educational research to
determine statistical and causal evidence and reach conclusions about such
events. However, this occurs very slowly, and is fraught with political
overtones and dangers, from both sides of a question. As noted here
frequently, there is a dearth of such scholarship on either side of the SWA
questions which we regularly debate here.
In the meantime, real people need to make decisions about where to send
their kids to school. It remains difficult for them to do so in the case of
Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophical schools because the standard advertising
for such schools is so misleading, and because the schools do not fully
inform intending consumers of the real nature of the spiritualistic,
esoteric foundation and practice of their pedagogy.
In these cases, the anecdotal evidence of people who have consumed the
education, both as parents of children and as students themselves, is
perhaps a fair guide for intending consumers. Certainly, I know of several
people who have decided not to send their kids to Steiner schools here in
New Zealand after listening to my personal experiences, my (admittedly
biased but nonetheless accurate and fair) reporting on Steiner education,
both here and elsewhere, and reading material I have provided from this and
other SWA lists, both pro and con.
In regard to the questions of both transfers to other schools before
finishing a SWA education, and the tertiary academic careers of students
who do complete an SWA education, here are some more anecdotes from my
personal experience and knowledge.
(Background aside: I have already described the great difficulties my own
children, now 16 and 18, have had in transferring back to public schools
after four and five years of Steiner school, which followed primary and
intermediate educations in public schools.
(My son, now 18, back in a public school for two years now, is sitting
university entrance examinations in a few weeks after 13 years of
schooling; he does not expect to pass some of the subjects (maths with
calculus, chemistry, physics) because he was so poorly prepared for real
scholarship by the lax pedagogy and airy-fairy mumbo jumbo of the Steiner
school he attended for four years.
(My daughter is finishing her first year back in a public school, the
equivalent of 10th grade, and has state examinations called "school
certificate" in a few weeks. She likewise does not expect to pass several
of these, in history, geography and English. We have not been able,
financially, to give either child any extra help.
(These examinations determine much for their futures both in and out of
school. These are bright children who went backwards and who had their
intellectual faculties dulled by their Steiner experience. They are, of
course, still bright, and they will, I am confident, transcend this
setback. I have counselled them to do their best, learn as well as they
can, and not to worry about their performance on these examinations or put
as much store in them as the cockeyed society and their peers do.
(This aversion to having children pegged neatly in pigeonholes was one
reason for choosing the Steiner alternative: internal assesment and
supposedly good results in tertiary education and life. And I will say
again that some aspects of the Steiner education were welcomed and useful,
especially the individual attention, the emphasis on personal dignity and
worth, and the emphasis on using education to understand the human
condition.
(It is unfortunate that the pedagogy and the teachers are so imbued with
supernaturalism as to make these good points worthless when compared to the
overall deleterious academic and thinking experience.
(Specifically, my children have lost -- or had removed from them on purpose
-- the ability to do critical thinking, and had it replaced with an
incipient credulousness towards all ideas, regardless of their worth. This
will require some years of remediation. I will not get into the thread
being ably handled by Kevin Houston in response to the peurile,
self-important, wind-bagging Ezra Beeman and other defenders of the faith,
save to say that I have never met an SWA student or teacher or adherent
[other than Stephen Tonkin] who had sufficient critical thinking ability.
Robert Tolz comes close, but that doesn't count, because he says he doesn't
really know anything about the subject and is just arguing from what is
presented here.
(What my children have had taken out of them is what Ezra Beeman
demonstrates he has lost: the ability to doubt or question one's own
thinking, much less the inclination to do so, especially within one's
cultural or educational milieu.
(This leads to the condescension the Beemans of this list visit on the
ordinary folk here who use their common sense in making decisions about
their Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophical experiences, instead of being in
thrall to mumbo jumbo. I am not surprised to see this superiority now being
visited on "anonymous" and on Mr Houston, whose erudition is, to my mind,
considerably greater than Mr Beeman's. Of course, as Mr Houston notes, it's
bloody unlikely that Mr Beeman will ever admit that he could be wrong about
anything.)
Now, here are some recent cases.
My son's Steiner class "graduates" this year, without him (though he stays
in touch and is still accepted, by the children, if not the teachers, as a
part of that group -- or what remains of it). Little remains of it. Many of
the class began their education in this Steiner school 14 or 15 years ago
(including a couple of years of kindergarten). Of a class of about 32 when
my son joined five years ago, there are now fewer than 14 who are
finishing, and half of them have been there for their whole schooling.
Of the rest, I know little, except vague anecdotes from my son's grapevine;
the general tenor is not pleasant. Of those remaining, I know a bit from
personal contact. Some are as airy-fairy as their Anthroposophical parents.
Many do not know much about the real world, particularly how it actually
works and their place in it as functioning citizens. Their ignorance is
borne out by a recent visit I made to an open day at our former school (we
still live literally in its shadow), where, though I am unwelcome, I am not
prevented from attending and reading student work on display for the
public. It is of a uniformly low standard, from my point of view as, among
other things, a professional communicator and teacher.
It is axiomatic (thanks, Mr Houston) that main lesson books will contain
the usual Steiner mumbo jumbo. (Although the lesson on Goethe's colour
theory and Newton's "errors" is not present on display this year, perhaps
out of sensible caution by the teachers, there are others still there,
including "fringe colours" experiments intended to show that colour arises
from the interplay of light and darkness, a favourite Anthroposophical
shibboleth).
A main lesson in astronomy shows a preoccupation with medieval cosmology,
including the epicycles of the orbits of the planets, particularly Venus,
with lots of hand-drawn and hand-coloured diagrams of zodiac signs, both
reminiscent of the extraordiary fascination of Steiner/ Waldorf/
Anthroposophical schools with geometric drawing. This, while my son, in an
equivalent state school physics curriculum, is studying astrophysics,
complete with its mathematics.
As I have noted previously, our former Steiner school, a state-integrated
and state-funded school for all the time we have been there, has been
severely marked down by the state school inspectorate for all that time for
failure to deliver the state-mandated curriculum alongside the "special
character" curriculum.
The daughter of an acquaintance of mine, who has two other Steiner
students, is a case in point: she can't spell, she can't write, other than
to copy what the teachers give the students, and she makes, in conversation
with me, no critical assessments of the subjects of the conversation. My
son says this girl (and several others of his Steiner mates, both past and
remaining) "hate" school, and are glad it's finally over. The prevailing
view of his class was that their teachers were loopy, their education was
minimal, and the requirements placed on them to learn were almost
non-existent (which, of course, being normal teenagers, they did nothing to
remedy -- no-one _wants_ to become a swot at that age, unless they are led
to the intellectual, considered, examined life; Steiner schooling is
supposed to do this, but it totally fails in my experience).
Perhaps half the remaining class intend to go to university.
Given that they do not sit university entrance examinations in their final
year, as my son is doing in public school, but only take a lesser external
exam and are internally assessed for their overall standing, this is a
problem for those who may not do terribly well in the exams (though the
school insists that scores in this exam are comparable to those of other
public schools).
Of the three graduating classes this school has now produced, only about
one-quarter to one-third of the students have pursued university
educations, and those have had some difficulty. Another daughter of my
acquaintance, who finished Steiner school three years ago in its first or
second "graduating class", is a bright, talented musician who is studying
music at university. She spends enormous amounts of time working at school
and at home, and often tells me how hard the work is, especially outside
her musical major. Things like English (in which he got high marks in
Steiner school, and the leaving exams) have been very difficult for her.
Another kid from her class who went to university to study engineering, had
so much difficulty with the required mathematics that he had to drop the
degree programme he was enrolled in, take an extra year of preparatory
maths, and re-enter a lower stream of engineering courses. Others have
dropped out completely.
The class my daughter was in has been similarly decimated. In this case, at
least five parents removed their children because of growing concern over
the weirdness of the Steiner education, and its inadequate academic
teaching and learning standards. Some other kids left because they did not
like the school. Some left because they wanted a more traditional
education, or their parents wanted it for them. Four, of my personal
acquaintance, are now at top private schools. Three of the four are
experiencing difficulty, ranging from near-failing to moderate, remediable
problems. The remaining class at the Steiner school, according to what I
hear, is a group of lackadaisical under-achievers who are all totally
cynical about the Steiner school, its teachers, and their educations, and
laugh behind the teachers' backs at their earnest mumbo jumbo, which
continues to give them stuff like "the heart is not a pump".
(Aside: it is interesting that an academic from the local university is
currently conducting research into this question of how Steiner/ Waldforf/
Anthroposophical students fare outside. He was quoted recently in a feature
article done by a press association journalist, which appeared in most of
the country's newspapers, about Steiner schools here [there are four high
Steiner high schools and numerous lower schools and kindies]. The article
was the usual credulous pap of a reporter who didn't do her homework, and
accepted the propaganda of the Steiner movement at face value. No attempt
to find out more from parents, or from the state education inspectors. Her
one foray into supposedly objective opinion about Steiner schools was to
approach this academic, who alluded only to the question of how Steiner
students fare in university placements, the subject of his study. Unstated
in the article: the academic has a child in my former Steiner school, and
it is his opinion that the school had been good for the child. My queries
to him [as a journalist with a bias towards exposing the real nature of
Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposoophical schools] for further information and
contact on his research have gone unanswered.)
I put the troubles of this class, and my daughter's own learning
difficulties, down to the incompetence of their class teacher, and the
medieval mindset and supernatural mumbo jumbo of the pedagogy.
My daughter had this teacher for four of her five years at the Steiner
school. While he treated the children as equals, they laughed behind his
back. While they _liked_ him, he did not have their respect, nor was he
able to command or obtain through leadership their discipline and
scholarship in class or out. He was a "good-ole-boy". He was ignorant of
much of the state curriculum he was required to teach, but was -- and is --
an ardent Anthroposoophist, and is, in fact, a major figure in the school's
proprietorship. (As a state-integrated, formerly-private school, it is run
by an educational trust of Anthropops.) He embraced the phenomenological,
esoterial, muthological basis of the Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophical
education fully, and my daughter's lesson books are full of such stuff as
the study of Ahura Mazda as a topic for understanding ancient
civilisations. But he had trouble explaining simple _real_ science to the
kids, despite having an engineering education and background. He spent a
lot of class time away from the class, welding the school's bus, or
building this or that, or in committee meetings. His daughter is in my
son's former class, graduating this year, and is said to hate school and
learning with a passion. Her mother is also a teacher at the school, a
member of the college of teachers, and a head Anthropop.
(Aside: when I had made my unhappiness clear to our former Steiner school,
and received absolutely no satisfaction or even understanding or empathy
for my position, and had indicated that we would be leaving, and taking the
matter further, an interesting thing happened.
One day this woman showed up on my doorstep, unannounced and uninvited, and
proceeded to grill me on my "intentions" regarding the school. This
happened three times! Each time she was at pains to say that she was
approaching me on a completely unofficial, personal basis of truly deep
personal desire to know my feelings better. This after almost no contact
other than in her capacity as a teacher, and that perfunctory. She seemed
quite well informed on the nature and extent of my representions to the
school, though none of them involved her, and, as far as I know, she was
not an official part of the school administration (such as it is in a
Steiner school with no principal). I suppose "collegiality" gave her the
knowledge; perhaps it also gave her the reason to enquire. Her manner was
not that of a genuine interest in our welfare or our point of view, and her
questioning was not tempered by any sensitivity or concern. She wanted to
know what I was doing and why. I told her -- in great detail and holding
nothing back. I got nothing in return. This experience was echoed later in
my last discussions with the school authorities, which I have written about
elsewhen on this list, wherein I was treated as an errant, disobediant,
willful, ignorant child.)
Now, I am sure that the defenders of the faith will jump on this anecdotal
evidence just as they have on every other bit of anecdotal evidence I have
previously given. This is to be expected from the sectarian, cult-like,
circle-the-wagons mentality of Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposopical devotees.
They will, particularly, say that this is only one school, one class, on
person's experience, and that I am obviously "biased", not "objective", and
that even if true, the experiences of one family in one school do not apply
to the whole Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophical movement.
Fair enough. But I'll trust readers with functioning critical,
common-sense, rational faculties to find -- like juries -- the truth of the
matter from my, and others', testimony, in the absence of anything else but
propadanda. Where there's smoke, there's fire.
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n985.8 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: childhood immunizations
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 23:34:13 -0800
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In-Reply-To: (199811210634.WAA20105 lists1.best.com)
)The current issue of Renewal (...Journal for Waldorf Education Vol. 7 No.
)2, Fall 1998) publishes an extraordinary letter to the editor from Babara
)and Robert Timmons. They say (excerpts):
)
)"We were dismayed by the misinformation in Dr. Incao's Article ('Childhood
)Illnesses, Vaccination, and Child Health') in the Spring issue of Renewal.
)Dr. Incao argues that immunization against measles, whooping cough, and
)other childhood illnesses weakens the immune system and can cause serious
)diseases such as asthma, cancer, diabetes, and inflammatory bowel disease.
)
I think you should send this to PLANS advisory board as well.
Deby
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n985.9 ---------------
From: BruceyJ aol.com
Subject: Re: definitions
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 05:54:45 EST
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In einer eMail vom 20.11.98 21:54:18 MEZ, schreiben Sie:
((
A couple of months ago, I posted the following note to a discussion on the
Anthroposophia list:
***
In this discussion, some Anthroposophia subscribers are in favor of a
dictionary of Anthroposohical terms, and some resist the idea of defining
anything.
Once, in a meeting at the Twin Ridges Alternative Charter School, parents
asked the faculty to define Anthroposophy. The reply was "To define
Anthroposophy would be to kill it."
In my opinion at that particular place and time it would have been
appropriate to define Anthroposophy, and thus to kill it in that context.
Anthroposophy should not have been present in that particular place and
time, a publicly-funded charter school.
If the teachers had been honest and courageous enough to have explained
their spiritual motivations directly, the parents would have been able to
explain to the teachers that their spirituality was incompatible with
activities supported by involuntary funding, i.e. taxes. Perhaps then the
matter could have been resolved and it would not have been necessary to
form PLANS and sue the school district.
***
Curiously, in the 27 further posts on this thread, no one commented on my
post. Maybe it was just so final that there was nothing else to say. Maybe
it was so trivial there was nothing worthwhile to say about it. Or maybe
there was a directive to the list minus one to ignore yours truly.
-Dan Dugan
))
I wasn't there then - would you like comments here instead (on the Dan list)?
Bruce
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n985.10 ---------------
From: BruceyJ aol.com
Subject: Re: Metadebate
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 07:42:55 EST
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In einer eMail vom 20.11.98 23:54:54 MEZ, schreiben Sie (Kevin Houston):
((
It is part of the AS debate method to lift out of context from quantum
physics and speculative math and then make metaphysical connections. Of
course, they manage to "baffle with bullshit" rather than "dazzle with
brilliance" as much as possible, only because very few people understand
this stuff. ))
I cannot honestly understand what this remark refers to, apparently out of
context. Or the context is in some book, or article or whatever that I have
not seen and is not cited or pointed to. As a physisist and Mathematician the
above interests me perhaps more than most, but I cannot see that a deeply
scientific slanging match onlist is really helpful to (and I am not insulting
anyones intelligence) those who have chosen to study other things. Maybe Kevin
is himself an Astrophysist or something similar, but I do not know: I would
propose an initial warm-up offlist if you wish Kevin.
Bruce
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n985 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n986 --------------
001 - ckzfrey (ckzfrey ix.netco - Fwd: childhood immunizations
002 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Bret part II
003 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Beeman's tyranny (Was Re: Reply to Nazi's Enemy #1 (anonym
004 - BruceyJ aol.com - Re: childhood immunizations
005 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: Beeman's tyranny (Was Re: Reply to Nazi's Enemy #1 (anonym
006 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: childhood immunizations
007 - Herman de Tollenaere (her - Kids at Scientology schools [fwd]
008 - Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis - Re: How fare Waldorf transfers to other schools? [long]
009 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Beeman's tyranny (Was Re: Reply to Nazi's Enemy #1 (anonym
010 - BruceyJ aol.com - Re: How fare Waldorf transfers to other schools? [long]
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n986.1 ---------------
From: ckzfrey (ckzfrey ix.netcom.com)
Subject: Fwd: childhood immunizations
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 98 12:35:35 -0600
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Although I am by no means an expert on this subject, I do have some
opinions...surprise, surprise, eh?
Long before I ever heard of Anthroposophically extended medicine(or
could even say it), my wife and I noticed that our son almost invariably
seemed a good deal more advanced after an illness---particularly a fever.
I would encourage anybody who spends time around young children to make
an effort to observe this.
Even without the --ahem-- mumbo-jumbo concerning incarnating this and
casting off that, it seemed to us that our child's body was doing
something necessary to his development.
When his fever creeps above about 101.5, we whip out the
Tylenol---everything needs balance,
right?
What I'm saying is, that some of these childhood diseases present
extremely minimal risks, have existed for centuries, if not millenia, and
let's look at *why* we feel as though we must immunize against, say,
chicken pox. I think some of these immunization just make the lives of
the parents damn inconvenient, and this is no reason for an immunization.
I am not, though, in favor of my child having polio. These vaccines must
be weighed in terms of the severity of the disease. Whooping cough is a
*real* drag, but seldom fatal.
Why should we discount the possibility that these vaccinations are
causing health problems?It's impossible to tell in a world of EMF's,
genetically engineered food, pollution, high-protein diets,television
etc. All these things are blamed for a multitude of ailments which all
have surfaced at around the same time. We should probably be as vigilant
as possible in all these areas, and more.
Of course, Dan was being his usual, delinquent self when he suggested
some kind of Darwinian element to the initiative against vaccination.
On the other hand, I often feel that those who have the luxury of not
taking the risk of immunizing their child against polio can only do so
because so many of us have taken said risk with our children.
I am still
wrestling with this issue--there are no answers yet; neither avoiding
all, nor blindly accepting all will do, though. I, for one, am glad that
people are asking questions--they are right to question any multi-billion
dollar industry which's(?!) motives are often suspect. Let us not forget
about what is happening with antibiotics. We now have
antibiotic-resistant "super-viruses" that are killing huge numbers of
people where these viruses breed most successfully--in hospitals. We are
creating new super-insects and super-weeds all the time through the use
of insecticides and herbicides which need to be killed with new chemicals
of ever-increasing sophistication. Who can say if any one of these will
cause the next plague or famine?
We tend to just let the god of science
and technology run rampant as if it is completely benevolent. If we would
have only stopped for a moment at the beginning of the automobile to
consider its impact, there would certainly be cleaner air and more open
land today.
There is also some fairly strong evidence to support that most vaccines
have the same efficacy in quantities as small as 1/10th of what is
commonly used. Maybe this is helping us move toward an answer. Who knows?
What I do know is that being anti-immunization because one is
pro-Anthroposophy, is no more helpful than being pro-immunization because
one is anti-Anthroposophy----Dan. ;}
Love on y'all,
Charlie
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n986.2 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Bret part II
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 10:58:49 -0800
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Received this after work.
e
Okay, I think I was a little unclear in my last email (set theory is not my
specialty). What we term as an axiom in modern times is the most basic
operations or things that you can do with "sets" they describe existence of
certain sets and how to build more from old, then from here numbers can be
constructed up to the usual notions that you know and love about math.
Axioms in more ancient times were things that described things that seemed
intuitevly clear like "points" and things alike. This is what euclid called
axioms and developed his geometry from four of them. In modern times we
dismiss this type of axiom, and start with the idea that everybody has an
idea of what a point is or a set. Instead we need some basics to get off
the ground so we define axioms to help us build things out of sets. These
are the ZF axioms.
Basically, the idea of axiom has changed and i think one of you was using
the older version where as anopther might be thinking of the more modern
formulation.
please forward both of these messages to your friend, then you two can sort
out what you mean and are arguing about since i'm not sure.
b
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n986.3 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Beeman's tyranny (Was Re: Reply to Nazi's Enemy #1 (anonymous))
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 11:06:57 -0800
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References: (199811202212.OAA20813 lists1.best.com) (199811210650.WAA27084 lists1.best.com)
I do not suffer hypocrites gladly. So do not mistake my silence for anything other than lack of interest. I remain on this list to challenge erroneous facts and unreasonable claims, not to engage in flame wars, educate on demand, or sway
opinion.
e
Michael Kopp wrote:
) Ezra Beeman says:
)
) )Without getting into alot of detail, to bear the responsibility of one's
) )expression is take credit for it and honor the freedom of information.
) )Why is there an expected freedom to speak anonymously when there is no
) )expected freedom to know the identity of the speaker, or know the the
) )identity of those being described. As is often the case, one person's
) )freedom is generally at the expense of someone else's freedom.
) )Freedom is not a one way street, and although I have asked this before on
) )this list: why is freedom from not the same as freedom to (from A
) )Handmaiden's Tale).
) )We do not operate in a vacuum, and thus each persons freedom must be
) )balanced against all the others. This may seem like a recipe for a
) )totalitarian state, it is not. What it is, IMHO, is a call for vigilance
) )against those political factions (a curious example of the collective)
) )seeking to use freedom to their own ends.
)
) Did I miss something in my fourth grade civics lessons, back in 1950's
) middle America?
)
) I always thought the American freedoms were designed particularly for the
) purpose of protecting "those political factions ... seeking to use freedom
) to their own ends".
)
) It seems to me that the opposite -- to require that "political factions" to
) meet someone else's ends -- is fascism.
)
) Indeed, Ezra's advice for "vigilance against those polictical factions"
) sounds to me exactly like what he denies it is: totalitarian fascism.
)
) Fascism is on the rise again, all over the world, even in supposedly
) democratic countries like mine (America) and mine (New Zealand). And its
) expression is seen, among other places, in the prescriptions of the
) superior lot of self-delusional folk who call themselves well educated by
) Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophical mumbo jumbo.
)
) Beeman is talking like a typical SWA obfuscator ("freedome is not a one-way
) street", whatever the hell that means), demeaner, and repressor.
)
) I began my tenure on this list anonymously, for probably similar reasons to
) why others have done so: fear of retribution from SWA authorities,
) including acts against my children by teachers and school administrators. I
) did not get this fear from reading the Waldorf Critics list; I got it from
) other parents in our Steiner school, some who had been there since its
) founding, who warned me against speaking openly either to the school, to
) parents, or publicly. One of these people had done so, and his children
) suffered at the hands of their teachers. I stopped being anonymous because
) it became too much of an issue in itself, and I was "outed" by unscrupulous
) SWA people with whom I had corresponded privately. I also made a conscious
) decision to "go public" because I determined to take on our school
) publicly. That decision did cost both me and my children, if not tangibly,
) then emotionally.
)
) I have no doubt that "anonymous" speaks with the truth of one who has
) reason to fear.
)
) It is interesting to me that there have been a number of people who have
) posted anonymously from the side of the defenders of the SWA faith; none of
) these have ever been subjected to the campaign of vilification and
) denigration which Beeman is currently visiting upon "anonymous", either
) from me, any other critic, or, most especially, from any defender of the
) faith. No defender has ever impugned the motives or cast aspersions (like
) Beeman's on "anonymous") on any _friend_ of Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophy.
)
) The right to anonymous speech is as enshrined in the First Amendment, and
) its judicial interpretation over 200-plus years, as is the right to public
) speech.
)
) I do not have the energy to further deconstruct Beeman's idiotic,
) illiterate, ranting, and I'm not anywhere near as educated and smart as
) Kevin Houston, who is doing an admirable job of exposing Beeman's trash
) thinking for what it is.
)
) Portecting freedoms involves a sacrifice: we all sacrifice some comfort on
) our own part in order to allow dissent and disagreement. This is not, as
) Beeman suggests above, "at the expense of someone else's freedom".
) Sacrificing comfort is not sacrificing freedom. Saying so is a classical
) McCarthyite demagogue's trick to suppress the original speaker who
) challenges shibboleths and power and cant and ... mumbo jumbo.
)
) There is an expected freedom to speak anonymously without an expected
) freedom to know the speaker for the precise reason of preventing the
) exercise of power over vulnerability. This IS the balance of one person's
) freedom against all the rest of our freedom's but it's not the sort of
) "balance" that Beeman is talking about above; that sounds more like the
) "dictatorship of the proletariat".
)
) Beeman has taken on some attitudes rather curiously antithetical to the
) supposed freedom his Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophical education was
) alleged to promote.
)
) No cheers from Godzone this time, just a tocsin against tyranny -- in all
) forms, in all endeavours, in all institutions, including Steiner/ Waldorf/
) Anthroposophy.
)
) Michael Kopp
) Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n986.4 ---------------
From: BruceyJ aol.com
Subject: Re: childhood immunizations
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 14:42:30 EST
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I do not consider myself an expert here at all, but two observations might be
of interest:
Firstly, the British apop magazine New View has also been dealing with this
recently
Secondly, and I have no source, I read in a non apop paper that in Germany* in
the last 10* years there had 25* cases on Polio.
All 25* were the result of someone being infected from an immunisation jab
(usually indirectly, ie father or mother).
* I regret that I cannot quote the source, and the figures are my
recollection, but must be of the right order. If this is of SERIOUS interest I
can ask around for clues that might lead me to the source, or perhaps someone
out there.....
Shalom
Bruce
PS I also believe that children should be "allowed" to experience the
childhood illnesses (like measles), but I would not suggest that anyone take
my view except my own child(ren).
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n986.5 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Beeman's tyranny (Was Re: Reply to Nazi's Enemy #1 (anonymous))
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 12:32:01 -0800
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On 21 Nov 98,, Ezra Beeman wrote:
) I do not suffer hypocrites gladly.
Are you referring to Michael Kopp? If not, to whom are you
referring, and what, specifically, is hypocritical? We should be
clear on this, as I'm sure you want to take responsibility for your
statements, and you seem to feel that making accusations without
identifying the subject of the accusation is irresponsible.
Steve Premo
Santa Cruz, California
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n986.6 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: childhood immunizations
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 12:32:01 -0800
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On 21 Nov 98,, BruceyJ aol.com wrote:
) Secondly, and I have no source, I read in a non apop paper that in
) Germany* in the last 10* years there had 25* cases on Polio.
)
) All 25* were the result of someone being infected from an immunisation jab
) (usually indirectly, ie father or mother).
Actually, it is the oral polio vaccine, which is from a live virus, that
has the potential to cause polio if the virus mutates into a virulent
form. The injected vaccine is made from dead virus, and does not
cause polio.
Steve Premo
Santa Cruz, California
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n986.7 ---------------
From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Kids at Scientology schools [fwd]
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 22:04:31 +0100
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Applied Scholastics: A testimony from inside
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 12:09:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: "M. Council" (council luna.cas.usf.edu)
The following is a statement in a letter dated 6/95, from a person who
wishes to remain anonymous who now lives in Florida. Posted with permission.
SOME NAMES HAVE BEEN CHANGED BY THE POSTER.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
My experience with Scientology was mostly through one of their Applied
Scholastics schools. I was looking for something other than the public
school system and found an Applied Scholastics school that claimed to be
non-denominational, a sane environemnt, and an individual self-paced
academic program for the student. I was told that it was based on the
breakthrough study technology of the great "educator" L. Ron Hubbard. I
didn't really know anything about LRH being the founder of Scientology at
the time, and once I found out, I didn't know anything about Scientology
anyway except for the fact that John Travolta, Kirstie Alley, Tom Cruise
and other "successful" Hollywood actors were members.
The claim that the school was non-denominational was a bold-faced lie.
Everything was Scientology. Knowledge reports were kept on students, Q & A
upon admissions which were kept in files and used to smear students who
"blew", stat charts, study courses and the comm course (which being under
the Tax Exempt umbrella makes them "religious" courses), ethics policies,
success stories, Friday graduation and wins sharing and applause, etc., etc.
As for the sane environment, that was a joke. Everything always depended on
the mood of the ED, who, while a "clear" was extrememly reactive and moody.
It was common when students would come in to timidly ask me "What mood is
Joan in today?" If she lost control of the courseroom she would literally
start stamping her feet and banging her fists on the tables and screaming
till her face turned red. She would stick her face two inches away from a
student's face and freak out on them. She really managed to have the
students intimidated. Of course when she wasn't around they would imitate
her and laugh about what a basket case she was. If anyone dropped a piece
of clay from the clay table she would start screaming for knowledge reports
and run around waving her arms screaming "who did this, who did this." But
when she would talk with the parents, she would be Miss mellow smiles and
calm, tender voice, and say how much she cared about their children and she
was there to help them. Then whenever any of the students would try to tell
their parents what was going on, the parents wouldn't believe them. One
thing I decided while being there and seeing all of this, is I would rather
believe my child in a lie than to disbelieve him in the truth. Of course
neither of these options are desirable. But I have seen the trust taken
away between a parent and their child when the parent pooh poohs the child
coming to them with something upsetting them that is true. I learned my
lesson, and I learned that I will not sit by and let lies and emotional
abuse go on anymore without speaking up.
Regarding Applied Scholastics promises and the "credible evidence" it
produces. They say that with the Learning Book and/or the Basic Study
Manual (Learning How to Learn for younger children) that once the student
takes the course all the problems they had in school with learning are
"handled." They make a big deal about misunderstood words, which to a point
is true. I do believe the dictionary should be used in public schools much
more than it is now. But these kids had real learning problems. After the
"study courses" they still had them, but in an environment where results
can be manipulated, they seem to have been eliminated. Then comes the time
when the person gets back in the real world without the "Scientology"
support and control system, and they are no better off than before, and in
some cases depending upon the alienation from the real world, they are
worse off. Of course they say even learning disabilities are just MUs, and
when the child looks up the word and understands it everything is fine.
I don't know if any of you were in any part of an org where you had to
report to LA on the org's stats each Thursday, but if you were I'm sure you
saw how stats can be "inflated" and manipulated [poster's note: MMMMmmm!
Tastes just like Allstate!]. These are the same stats Applied Scholastics
uses to advertise how wonderful they are.
There are stats for student points that each student has to keep for each
day. Also there were different stats for courses completed by each of the
students that week as well. You understand the different conditions Power,
Affluence, Liability, etc., I hope. These are determined by the weekly
graphing of your stats. The school I worked at manipulated these by
inflating student points. They would take students off of the courses they
really needed to get a standard academic education, such as math, history,
etc. which take a lot of work and time to get the course completions. Then
they would be put on some really educationally benign program of drawing a
picture, calling each picture an art course, counting it as a completion,
plus taking the points for it. If they were far behind the previous weeks
completions and points, all of the students would draw several pictures,
taking an art "completion" for each one and the points that go with it.
Also, they would be given silly drills to do that they could complete
rapidly and do them over and over and over and take 75 points each time the
drill was done and that brought up the student points rapidly. That way
going by how many points the studnets were completing each week made it
seem like they were doing a lot of work, but the thing is, it was quantity
work and NOT quality work. All of these many completions and student points
looked really great on paper. My, how much work it appeared the students
were doing. HA!! Of course the work was useless as far as what really
needed to be done for the students legitimate high school studies.
So any proof of anything can be manipulated, and believe me it's not just
the CoS that does this with all their programs. Of course all of the
students from this school have high GPAs when they transfer out of her
shcool or "graduate." But what people don't realize is that the school
doesn't give anybody a grade lower than a B. A or B is the lowest grades
you can get, unles you transfer out without taking an exam on the course in
question to test what you have really learned. In that case she will give
you a C. I worked with the "examiner" and when the student takes the exam
at the end of the course, the examiner goes over all the questions they
missed with the student and will try to lead them to the correct answer. If
they can get them to remember the proper answer the first time around, even
if they originally missed several questions, they get an A. If they can't
remember, they are given the questions they missed on the test on a pink
sheet and told what part of the book to look over to get the answers, and
then they retake the questions they missed. Then, if they still miss the
questions, the process is repeated for those questions until the student
finally memorizes the answers to all the qeustions they missed. Even if
they missed 70% of the test the first time, then 40% of the questions the
second time, then 20% the third, and finally get those right on the fourth
try, they would still be given a B for that course. Now is that a dream
come true for someone who wants a high GPA...to go to a school that you
know the lowest grade you can make is a B! Now I know why colleges want the
SAT tests to be taken before a student can enter their college and not just
go by graduating GPAs alone. If they come from a private school such as the
Applied Scholastics school I worked at, the students look good, but they
didn't really learn, and the GPAs are not fair in comparison to people who
went to schools where you didn't get the opportunity time after time after
time to do the same questions over and over on the same test until you get
it right and get a B. In most schools if you get a C, D or F on your exams
the first time you get a C, D or F, period.
Now I can't say if all Applied Scholastics schools all over the country
work this same way. I do know that the ED (who was also the director and
teacher for the "high school" level) at this school trained at Delphi in
Oregon, and True School in Clearwater.
Another thing about the high school I forgot to mention. The courses they
did were not high school courses for the most part. The English courses
they did were from workbooks for middle school, and even from a workbook
for grades 5 and 6. She had several students doing courses in math from 7th
and 8th grade workbooks. When they would transfer out, she would put down
on their transcripts for English courses either English I, II or III on
their transcript, give them credit for the course, and of course the A or B
grade. THESE KIDS NEVER HAD ANY HIGH SCHOOL ENGLISH! I even witnessed her
give credit for courses that the students never even took! When they
transferred back to public schools they had trouble keeping up, had to have
extra tutoring, etc. Some of the kids couldn't even get their credits
accepted, and were told they would have to start over again in the 9th
grade. The few who did manage to have some of their credits accepted really
had to work hard to catch up.
The ED was a clear, and I must admit she was the most reactive person I've
ever met (I guess she may have had her engrams removed but just had a very
bad case of "Body Thetans"). She was also an experienced auditor. She would
get the parents and/or student back alone in her office and would run
procesing on them and they didn't even know what was happening. They would
come out and say to me, "I can't believe the things I told her about myself
(or my family)." or, "Gee, I went in to talk about one thing, and she ended
up making me talk about something else."
Since I only worked at the one Scientology Applied Scholastics school I
can't say if my experience was typical or isolated. I can say that we
regularly had L.A. telling us what to do, and that they were always
checking up on us. When some representatives came from Clearwater to
evaluate the school, their main concern was that there wasn't a picture or
a bust of LR[on] H[ubbard] in reception, and that there should have had
more CoS materials on display. So now I ask you, does that say to you what
their main priority was?
)From what I have seen, LRH Tech with its checks and balances works
perfectly for church courses because that will be the environment most
people stay in once they start up the "bridge." But when you apply this to
the "secular" world where it's not for the mindless absorption of
Scientology but must be used practically in other circumstances, it didn't
really work. All the things these students learned, once they got back out
into the real world, were not the promised panacea. The one thing that did
make a difference was they did learn to use a dictionary and to make sure
they understood the words in the courses they were studying. Yes this is an
excellent practice but you don't need the church or LRH to learn that. The
use of dictionaries was in existence long before LRH was born and using
dictionaries was a practice used before he ever had a brain to think it up.
But who knows, maybe he was Daniel Webster in one of his many adventurous
past lives.
I still remember the school I worked at, the Scientologists were always
taking about the "Wall of Fire" and different OT states and that the
material you handle is so volatile that it can cause you to either go
insane or commit suicide. Of course if you get through it you are at a new
state of "spiritual enlightenment." I know if something has that effect on
a person it isn't because they are learning something cosmically revealing,
but because they are opening and giving their mind to influences they
shouldn't be.
Here is what I find so nonsensical about the statement that Scientology is
a "religion:" A religion supposedly deals with things dealing with the
human spirit or soul, etc.; i.e. spiritual matters. If you look at Judaism,
Christianity, Islam, Hindi, etc., they teach the path of spiritual
enlightenment freely. As a matter of fact, they strive to teach as many
people as possible to go as far as they possibly can in their religion
FREELY. Spiritual levels are attained by how much time and heart you put
into seeking that knowledge, not by your ability to PAY. No other
"religion" is on a "per pay" basis. Everything they have to offer on the
road up the bridge is only attained through money or in a few circumstances
by becoming a "slave' for the org and trading your life for it. All their
magazines and brochures always have to do with "buy" this and "buy" that.
When you give something by insisting on payment, and the public cannot
attain that "spiritual" enlightenment other than by payment [also known as
"donation"], you are SELLING. When you sell, you are a business, and when
you are as diversified as CoS is, you are a corporation.
Scientology says it is a religion. If they copyright all their spiritual
beliefs and make them available by payment [donation] only, then that is
SELLING. An organization that makes profit by selling is a business or
corporation, not a "religion." Maybe Texaco, IBM, Microsoft and AT&T should
call themselves a "religion" also. Then, they won't have to pay taxes on
their profits either.
Scientology officials say they are for free speech, and that is the truth.
They just left out the part about being for free speech for THEMSELVES, and
not for OTHERS. Well, it's about time they learned that people aren't going
to sit around and let that happen.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
This has been a letter, posted with permission, from someone with no net
access who lives in Florida now. Some names were changed.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
They're learning. They just keep making the mistake of underestimating
people and overestimating themselves...
--------------------------------------m. council, human being
Hell, if you understood
everything I say, you'd council luna.cas.usf.edu
be me. -Miles Davis
-------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
((The following is from follow-up e-mails with Maggie. It has been slightly
edited to protect the source, the end-product was submitted for review.
Some inaccuracies were connected later. Tilman))
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
From: "M. Council" (council luna.cas.usf.edu)
Subject: ok, more about schools!
I spoke with my contact who sent me the information about the Applied
Scholastics school she worked for in ((deleted)). Points from the notes I
took during our conversation:
Yes, they do use E-Meters at those schools! Just not on wog kids; when they
are used, they are not called e-meters [which allows them to deny it
without losing conscience]. They're called "learning accelerators."
Yes, you do have to write success stories or you won't pass the class! If
you write one they don't like, you do it again until they do like it. She
related a story of one ((deleted)) kid who drew a picture [sometimes
pictures were okay instead of written success stories] of genitalia as his
success story [he later quit the school].
Success stories were required to name the class or course taken, say how
wonderful it was, and how much you learned. Better stories told of
applications of the new 'knowledge'.
It's so easy to open a school! Private schools are businesses. That's why
((deleted)) could open one with just a ((non pedagogical credential
deleted)) ! You need an occupational license, and that's it, in
((deleted)). Also, and this is verrrrrry important, accrediting agencies
are not always what they appear to be.
Deceptive curriculum: I was told that there was one outdated Chemistry book
that supplied all the material for three courses in Chemistry.
KRs: Admissions form had no tests, no academic questions. It read like a
sec check! and the answers were kept in the file. All learning disabilities
are really M/Us ((misunderstood words)) anyway, according to ((name of the
directress deleted)). Eventually, says my source, a few kids rightfully
removed the KR's from their KR file. When they were led to write KR's they
did not realize these would be kept on file for permanant reference. They
also removed KR's from their friends KR files as well. When a few left the
school they were Fair Gamed. My source was outraged by this, and it was
part of her decision to leave the school.
Child neglect: Not every kid there was a scientologist; many were not. You
could really tell the difference betweent the scientology kids and the
others, though. The Scientology kids were hungry, dirty, scabies,
"pathetic", inadequate clothing, etc. HRS ((Health and Rehabilitative
Services, an agency looking for neglected children)) had checked into some
of the children.
My source has lots of stuff documented. She may be willing to go to
authorities soon on this; I hate to push her because ((reason deleted)).
Apparantly they've already suffered a bit of fair gaming themselves.
)
) I hope that concerned citizens will tell that it is a clam school.
)
Concerned citizens [e.g., former students, parents of same, etc.] are all
frightened of the threats that were made to them. No one has spoken out.
)
) Is this post public or "eyes only" ? I'd like to add it to the previous
) post about that school on my page.
)
It's public as long as her name and the name of the town, the school, and
the school's owner, ((deleted)), are nowhere in the material.
--------------------------------------------m. council, human being
"How come your ashtray didn't stand up by itself?"
-from Arnie's Favorite Questions for 'Dangerous' Oatees
------------------KoX------SP3-------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Re: Some [legitimate!] questions about Scn
From: "M. Council" (council luna.cas.usf.edu)
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 13:48:08 -0400
On 16 Oct 1995 jamesc utdallas.edu wrote:
[snip]
) This brings up something that I've been considering for a while. What,
) exactly, does the Church have to say about disorders like ADD, dyslexia,
) and others?
According to an ex-employee of a private school licensed by Applied
Scholastics [scientology(tm)], the Hubman thought ALL learning disabilities
were the product of M/Us, or "misunderstood words." That's why his whole
educational philosophy revolves around looking words up in the dictionary;
hardly a new or unique idea.
Apparantly, there was little else: when the school moved after 3 years,
four of the students were "grandfathered" back into high school. They did
have to catch up because they were behind. Other students who had not been
in high school prior were told they would have to go back grades. Others
simply got their GED.
What's really sick is that the owners / operators of this school were never
forced to close it down; instead, they just moved it to another location,
and they are now bilking a new generation of parents out of their
childrens' education, as well as their money.
--------------------------------------m. council, human being
Hell, if you understood
everything I say, you'd council luna.cas.usf.edu
be me. -Miles Davis
------------------------------------------
Herman de Tollenaere
------------------------------------------
Internet site:
http://stad.dsl.nl/~hermantl/
See also:
http://www.stelling.nl/simpos/simpoeng.htm
------------------------------------------
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n986.8 ---------------
From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: How fare Waldorf transfers to other schools? [long]
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 21:48:48 +0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: (199811210650.WAA27102 lists1.best.com)
Michael made reference to science education and to astronomy in his
post, so I am using that as an excuse to emerge from the woodwork again
and contribute my 0.02c ((-- intentional (g)):
)Anonymous, Deby, myself and most other critics have provided numerous
)anecdotes regarding such transfers, from our personal experience with our
)own children and from our knowledge of others.
)
)None of this anecdotal evidence seems to cut any ice with any of the SWA
)defenders of the faith [TM].
It cuts ice with me, Michael, and I am sure that I am one who you think
ought to have the initials "F.D." after his name. I draw your attention
to the thread "About Hight School", in particular my response to Deby's
question about how we know we are doing what we think we're doing.
)
)We live in a real world where the gross effects of our experiences are not
)scientifically plotted. It remains for academics in educational research to
)determine statistical and causal evidence and reach conclusions about such
)events. However, this occurs very slowly, and is fraught with political
)overtones and dangers, from both sides of a question. As noted here
)frequently, there is a dearth of such scholarship on either side of the SWA
)questions which we regularly debate here.
Indeed -- and I suspect that will remain the case until someone,
somewhere, decides that some independent research is worth funding.
Whilst I think we can learn a lot from true anecdotes, my objection to
studies whose statistical methodology is suspect is not the data
themselves, but the ease with which anyone can discount the conclusions.
This cuts both ways.
Michael, I don't discount your anecdotes. They are your experience and,
as others have related, similar experiences have been had elsewhere.
They are things we should learn from; we should do our darnedest to make
sure that such things do not recur. My take is that there are two facets
to how we can do that -- the first is to give parents realistic
expectations of what WE can (and cannot) do; the second is to make
damned sure we do what we say we will. The bottom line in this is the
education of our children; I regret that I have seen, in both Waldorf
and state education, cases where the "inner comfort" of adults has
appeared to take precedence.
It is also true, as we all recognise, that the negative anecdotes do not
give a complete picture. For this reason, I am going to relate something
that happened yesterday -- I apologise if I appear to be blowing my own
trumpet, but I'm not going to relate 2nd-hand tales (I'm not using names
-- I don't think it right to identify "non-combatants" in this):
At lunchtime, there was a knock on the window, and I looked up to see a
couple of lads I used to teach. They had a day off (state) school owing
to an in-service training day for teachers, and had come because one of
them had just got his "mock" GCSE (UK 16+ public exam) results, and
wanted to tell me that he was heading for an A* in maths. He was
(naturally) absolutely delighted and spontaneously told me that he felt
that I had prepared him very well for his transition to state school
summer before last. He also said he had some ideas as to how the Waldorf
school could do even better in this regard. Consequently, I have spoken
to his parents and we intend to find a time over the Christmas break
when we can sit down together (parents, pupils, me) and look at this in
some detail.
I relate this anecdote for a number of reasons: firstly, we don't fail
all our pupils -- there is another side to this coin -- I am not, by a
long way, the only Waldorf teacher who has done well for at least some
of his pupils -- I'm just one of the few who subscribes to this list and
is crass enough to mention it; secondly, we *do* listen and do respond.
I freely admit that it is a lot easier to listen and respond to praise
than it is to criticism; from my own experience, when I am feeling tired
or stressed out I can easily dismiss valid criticism as mere vindictive
shit-stirring -- I don't think that I'm in a minority of one in that.
One of the things we all (not just Waldorf techers) need to learn to do
is accept and act on the critical anecdotes.
If I may comment on some specific points:
)My son's Steiner class "graduates" this year, without him (though he stays
)in touch and is still accepted, by the children, if not the teachers, as a
)part of that group -- or what remains of it). Little remains of it. Many of
)the class began their education in this Steiner school 14 or 15 years ago
)(including a couple of years of kindergarten). Of a class of about 32 when
)my son joined five years ago, there are now fewer than 14 who are
)finishing, and half of them have been there for their whole schooling.
This is a common experience in a number of (too many, but by no means
all) Waldorf Upper Schools. My own take on this is that it *can* result
from an attempt at compromise between the Waldorf curriculum and the
public exam curricula -- with the consequence that neither is done
properly. I don't know if this is the case with "your" school, Michael.
)there are others still there,
)including "fringe colours" experiments intended to show that colour arises
)from the interplay of light and darkness, a favourite Anthroposophical
)shibboleth).
I remember from many years ago, the "trick" of getting colour from a
black-and-white TV -- a rotating Benham's disc. How about a statement
like "the perception of colour can arise from an interplay of black and
white", once it is clear that colour is something that we perceive? The
processes by which that perception occurs are, I suggest, not
necessarily understandable by those who are able to notice the
phenomenon; the appropriate time to teach the reasons for any phenomenon
is certainly not before it can be properly understood.
In a month or so I'm going to be giving a talk to some consultant
opthalmologists, on the topic of optical systems for people with low
vision -- we're going to be examining at all stages of the system, from
the object to our perception of it, so I can legitimately slip in a
Benham's disc demo -- I'll let you know if they disagree with my
statement above.
)
)A main lesson in astronomy shows a preoccupation with medieval cosmology,
Hmmm. Is this upper school or lower school stuff? I've been teaching
astronomy at one level or another for longer than I care to think about.
I have found that an historical approach is the most effective way of
having people, young and old, really understand the basis of our current
(incomplete) understanding. It was Newton who said that if he had seen
further than others, it was because he had stood upon the shoulders of
giants -- it helps us to stand on those giants' shoulders as well. I use
this approach in (state) adult education courses I teach -- it is deemed
(by students and by the college authorities) to be effective. It is
important not to stop the history in the 17th century, but to bring it
right up to the present.
If I may be picky: mediaeval? Until Kepler's _Astronomia Nova_ (1609),
there wasn't a new astronomical idea of any major significance to our
understanding since those of Aristarchus (3rd Cent BCE). Nothing new
happened in the middle ages, apart from an increased accuracy of
measurement; if anything, things went backwards -- or is that what you
meant? (g)
)including the epicycles of the orbits of the planets, particularly Venus,
For an introductory descriptive observational astronomy, this is fine,
although I'd want to do an outer planet as well. I would be concerned if
it was a preoccupation, and didn't move on at least as far as Kepler
and, for mathematically able 17- and 18-yr olds, the use of Kepler
elements in orbital determination.
)with lots of hand-drawn and hand-coloured diagrams of zodiac signs, both
)reminiscent of the extraordiary fascination of Steiner/ Waldorf/
)Anthroposophical schools with geometric drawing. This, while my son, in an
)equivalent state school physics curriculum, is studying astrophysics,
)complete with its mathematics.
I would be surprised if well-taught geometry was not an assistance to
him in a description of solar-system dynamics.
As an aside, I never felt comfortable teaching Kepler's first and second
laws to lower school age youngsters, until I figured out a ridiculously
simple way that the kids could experience elliptical planetary motion,
complete with speed variation (requires a fair bit of space for the
orbit, and a rope to provide "gravity").
)Now, I am sure that the defenders of the faith will jump on this anecdotal
)evidence just as they have on every other bit of anecdotal evidence I have
)previously given.
I hope my comments on the anecdotes which I feel qualified to comment
upon don't count as a "jump on" response.
) This is to be expected from the sectarian, cult-like,
)circle-the-wagons mentality
Aha! Does this explain why some of my past "positive" anecdotes have
been jumped upon by critics? (g)
)They will, particularly, say that this is only one school, one class, on
)person's experience,
Yes it is. The anecdote I related has exactly the same status. May I
suggest that we need to accept that *both* represent different facets of
a true picture.
That said, I think that those of us whom Michael classifies as
"defenders of the faith" should not fall into the trap of the apparent
security and validation of what we are doing that is set by the positive
anecdotes, even though they *do* validate what we are doing. We *must*
accept that the fact of experiences like Michael's needs to be
addressed. If we tell parents that, by a certain age, pupils will be
able to transfer to state (public) schools relatively seamlessly, then
we must make certain that we honour this. Obviously, there will be a
whole spectrum of pupils and those of lower academic ability will find
it more difficult to transfer, but we have absolutely no excuse for
children of average academic ability and above, _if_we_have_made_that_
commitment_to_parents_!
)and that I am obviously "biased", not "objective",
Neither am I, Michael, neither am I! But then, who is? It is part of the
human condition that each of us believes himself to be a reasonable
human being. IMNSHO the only possible route to objectivity is scientific
method (and even that contention is disputable) and, as you alluded, it
is not always applicable to human situations.
)Where there's smoke, there's fire.
Indeed, but is it a devastating all-consuming inferno or a few isolated
smoulderings? I believe (without evidence other than anecdotes), that
the truth lies somewhere between those extremes.
--
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+ Stephen Tonkin | ATM Resources; Astro-Tutorials; Astronomy Books +
+ (N50.9105 W1.829) | (http://www.aegis1.demon.co.uk) +
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n986.9 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Beeman's tyranny (Was Re: Reply to Nazi's Enemy #1 (anonymous))
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 14:24:36 -0800
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References: (199811212032.MAA01154 lists1.best.com)
Well since you asked, Kopp, Dugan, Kathy are preeminent in my mind when I speak of hypocrites in this context (Dan is much less asinine IMHO). Pleaser note I do not suffer fools gladly, either.
All of these people (most notably Kathy and Kopp) will expound upon the injustice of their treatment at the hands of name callers, intimidators, liers, and just generally mean people. But of course, their primary rhetorical devices are these same
political processes.
Another phenomena worth mentioning, is the fact I defended Kopps 'right' to speak his mind when there were calls for his head. So when it comes down it, I spoke up for freedom (even when the form was distastefull), and what I think is right. But
Judas here would just as quickly label me a facist when the political climate has turned.
I care nothing of popular opinion, unlike Pontius Pilot posters like yourself (Premo) seeking to build consensus on feet of clay (bad faith). Dante envisioned a special place for such people. Generally I refrain from commenting on your posts, but
when such a facile sentiment apes me directly, I will not tolerate it.
I've allowed myself to respond with a harsher tone than usual due to direct and indirect challanges to me personally as a human being. I do this with some hope such methods will fall out of favor. Or else, why bother?
Please note I'd already taken responsibility for my statement by identifying it as mine own. Even if I choose not to identify the other parties (though it was in a post replying to Kopp), this choice is mine and I take responsibility for it by
signing my name to it.
Finally, though I had people in mind when I made that statement, thr truth of the statement lies in the fact I do not suffer hypocrites gladly, no matter if they are on a WE critics list, in my professional life, or social life. full stop.
e
Steve Premo wrote:
) On 21 Nov 98,, Ezra Beeman wrote:
)
) ) I do not suffer hypocrites gladly.
)
) Are you referring to Michael Kopp? If not, to whom are you
) referring, and what, specifically, is hypocritical? We should be
) clear on this, as I'm sure you want to take responsibility for your
) statements, and you seem to feel that making accusations without
) identifying the subject of the accusation is irresponsible.
)
) Steve Premo
) Santa Cruz, California
) http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n986.10 ---------------
From: BruceyJ aol.com
Subject: Re: How fare Waldorf transfers to other schools? [long]
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 17:57:26 EST
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In einer eMail vom 21.11.98 22:58:44 MEZ, schreiben Sie (Stephen Tomkin):
In "dialogue" with Michael, Steve wrote, amongst numerous other things:
((
That said, I think that those of us whom Michael classifies as
"defenders of the faith" should not fall into the trap of the apparent
security and validation of what we are doing that is set by the positive
anecdotes, even though they *do* validate what we are doing. We *must*
accept that the fact of experiences like Michael's needs to be
addressed. If we tell parents that, by a certain age, pupils will be
able to transfer to state (public) schools relatively seamlessly, then
we must make certain that we honour this. Obviously, there will be a
whole spectrum of pupils and those of lower academic ability will find
it more difficult to transfer, but we have absolutely no excuse for
children of average academic ability and above, _if_we_have_made_that_
commitment_to_parents_!
))
I would to add my name to the "believers" who accept that all is far from
perfect. I think that is already clear!
I am coming onto this topic to describe something that happened to me, again
not wishing to blow my own trumpet...
I taught many years ago in Brighton. One of my pupils (I taught him maths and
form-drawing) went on to a state school at the end of class 7 (if I remember
correctly) where he obtained the highest GCSE (UK 16+ exam) Maths result in
the southern part of England (cannot remember exactly how it was defined, but
it was impressive). I must admit the child was pretty bright, and I noticed
this particularly by his extraordinary ability to tessalate (excuse possible
wrong spelling - I mean making logical patterns).
More recently I met his mother who showed me a newspaper-cutting (detailing
the above), and she reminded me that I had said he was good at maths!
Sometimes I am right!
Bruce
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n986 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n987 --------------
001 - Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis - Re: Beeman's tyranny (Was Re: Reply to Nazi's Enemy #1 (anonym
002 - Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra. - Re: childhood immunizations
003 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Beeman's tyranny (Was Re: Reply to Nazi's Enemy #1 (anonym
004 - alpha-omega t-online.de ( - Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n981
005 - alpha-omega t-online.de ( - Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n981
006 - alpha-omega t-online.de ( - Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n981
007 - olaf andersen (alpha-omeg - Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n981
008 - olaf andersen (alpha-omeg - Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n981
009 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - On undecidable propositions of reality
010 - "Jeff Horseman" (jthorse - Re: Waldorf Questions
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n987.1 ---------------
From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Beeman's tyranny (Was Re: Reply to Nazi's Enemy #1 (anonymous))
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 23:25:01 +0000
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In-Reply-To: (199811212222.OAA12330 lists1.best.com)
Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org) wrote:
[snip stuff on hypocrisy]
Ezra, I imagine that you and I are on the same side, in that we both
think WE has something valuable to offer and that we'd like to see it
strengthened and improved? If that is true, do you think it matters one
iota whether or not some of the WCs use similar rhetorical devices as
those they denigrate? Surely what is important is that something we deem
to be of value is perceived (rightly or wrongly) of behaving in a manner
that *we* find unacceptable? If we're going to address anything, do we
not have to *listen* to those criticisms with an open heart and mind,
then see how we can improve on our work so that we do not invite these
criticisms. In short, Ezra, we are being offered a unique learning
opportunity here -- let's use it, for heaven's sake! (And yes, I freely
admit that it took me a long time to realise that.)
As I think I've said elsewhere, I teach some adult education classes
(that is what they're called, but I've had "adults" of all ages, from 10
to 88, in the evening sessions). After every course I hand the students
a questionnaire which I encourage them to return, anonymously if they
wish, and I implore them not to pull any punches in their responses.
Once a year, I sit down with the director of education and we go through
them, trying to identify ways I can improve the course. From the decline
in critical comments, I think it is fair to say that the criticisms in
the questionnaires have helped me to improve what I am doing. Some of
them have lead to a more careful description of the course content, so
that false expectations are not engendered; others have lead to my
simplifying the existing course and teaching another (more advanced)
course to meet needs that were not meetable in what I was doing.
The point I am trying to make is that criticism is valuable. I don't
know what mechanisms exist in the US for Waldorf teacher
mentoring/advice/improvement (so maybe it happens already) but,
somewhere along the line, we have to solicit the frank opinions of the
"consumers" (i.e. the families who have entrusted the education of their
children to us). Until we do that, and act upon what we hear, we should
not be surprised that lists like this *need* to exist.
Whilst I agree that some unwarranted criticisms are made (the Nazi
obsession is one in point, IMNSHO), *please* can we try to discuss
issues and not, as MK (I think?) puts it, "play the man".
You also said:
)I care nothing of popular opinion, unlike Pontius Pilot posters like yourself
)(Premo) seeking to build consensus on feet of clay (bad faith).
[...]
I know Steve doesn't need me to defend him, but when I read things like
that, Ezra, I wonder if you're reading the same words as the rest of us
-- over the years, Steve Premo has given some of the most fair-minded
and balanced contributions to this list -- nothing he has written here,
including the post to which you responded, deserved that snipe!
--
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
+ Stephen Tonkin | ATM Resources; Astro-Tutorials; Astronomy Books +
+ (N50.9105 W1.829) | (http://www.aegis1.demon.co.uk) +
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n987.2 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp xtra.co.nz)
Subject: Re: childhood immunizations
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 12:41:00 +1200
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In-Reply-To: (199811211944.LAA13852 lists1.best.com)
Bruce writes:
)I do not consider myself an expert here at all, but two observations might
)be
)of interest:
)
)Firstly, the British apop magazine New View has also been dealing with this
)recently
)
)Secondly, and I have no source, I read in a non apop paper that in
)Germany* in
)the last 10* years there had 25* cases on Polio.
)All 25* were the result of someone being infected from an immunisation jab
)(usually indirectly, ie father or mother).
Proving what? How many cases of polio would have eventuated in the same
period if there had been no immunisation against polio? How about comparing
statistics with a country which does not immunise against polio (and where
polio does exist)? How about comparing statistics with the rate of polio in
the German population _before_ polio immunisations became ubiquitous?
It seems to me that 10 cases of polio from vaccine is preferable to 100 or
1000 or 10000 or 100000 or 1000000 cases from natural causes. Or am I
missing something here. Anti-immunisation sounds like peurile anti-science
to me.
And can you clarify what you mean by "(usually indirectly, ie father or
mother)"? Either these kids were or were not vaccinated. If they were, and
you are stating that they contracted polio from the vaccine, then what do
the parents have to do with the matter? Are you saying that a child
contracted polio _in utero_ from a parent who had been immunised? How
would you know that? How would doctors differentiate between naturally
occurring polio and that which had been somehow passed on?
)* I regret that I cannot quote the source, and the figures are my
)recollection, but must be of the right order. If this is of SERIOUS
)interest I
)can ask around for clues that might lead me to the source, or perhaps
)someone
)out there.....
The issue is VERY serious interest. How about some scientific references,
rather than anecdotal recollections of non-scientific media? How about some
specific governmental health organisation statistics or facts?
)PS I also believe that children should be "allowed" to experience the
)childhood illnesses (like measles), but I would not suggest that anyone
)take
)my view except my own child(ren).
Well, I can tell you from personal experience that I would not wish for the
same thing for my kids, after having had measles as a child through lack of
immunisation, and suffering life-long health deficiencies because of it.
The specific and most far-reaching disability I have because of childhood
measles is bad eyesight, which has crippled my career as a photographer, in
my opinion.
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n987.3 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Beeman's tyranny (Was Re: Reply to Nazi's Enemy #1 (anonymous))
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 17:55:01 -0800
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References: (199811212336.PAA09027 lists1.best.com)
Um okay, please articulate for me the lessons you have learned from Kathy, Dan and Kopp with regard to WE (the more detail the better). How much currency do you want to give such rhetoric? The National Socialist party was quite critical of many
many things, but why was that and where did it lead?
With regard to Premo, I respect your post in his defense. I'm certain calling most people a Pontius Pilate (as I am not the Messiah) is over the top, and he is no exception.
And play the man? Isn't this thread subject line named by Kopp himself? Perhaps this is what he means, but it sure seems like he cries foul loudest when it he is on the receiving end. Might I add this is a good example of hypocrisy, and why I find
it so reprehensible.
Other musings on your post, using your example of feedback. I liken your example in this case to having the same guy come to your class, and every time he fills out one of your forms he says: "You suck, you're terrible, they should lock you up."
Now one may say this person did not say why and is thus not the same thing, since people on this list love to point out