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-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n702 --------------
001 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Eurocentrism
002 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Eurocentrism
003 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - Bay Area: Eugene Schwartz talk 4/1
004 - angelica hesse (hesse96 m - Re: Defensiveness, Elitism, etc
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From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Eurocentrism
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 08:53:20 +0000
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On 31 Mar 98 , c.mcilroy wrote:
) what i see as 'eurocentrism' goes unchallenged as well. i love the whole
) mythology and evolution of human consciousness thing, but i have a
) problem with the (apparent) insistence that european 'civilisation' is
) the most superior and highly evolved.
The problem, Carl, is that this all traces back to Steiner. While many
Waldorf schools are serious about including more mythology and fairy tales
from other cultures, you're not going to pry anthroposophists away from
the idea that, at the present time, Europe is the center and culmination
of the spiritual evolution of humanity. In other words, I think you can
get some reform on the surface, and that's a good thing, but there is an
underlying bias that, I think, will not go away.
That's not limited to Waldorf, of course, but in Waldorf there is a
special problem in trying to get people to see Europe as something other
than the most highly evolved society.
Steve Premo http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
"Computers, huh? I guess they're OK... if you've got the time"
--Barry "The Flash" Allen
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From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Eurocentrism
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 17:03:39 -0800
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References: (199803311657.IAA10351 lists1.best.com)
My two cents worth...
Steve Premo wrote:
) On 31 Mar 98 , c.mcilroy wrote:
)
) ) what i see as 'eurocentrism' goes unchallenged as well. i love the whole
) ) mythology and evolution of human consciousness thing, but i have a
) ) problem with the (apparent)
I gather that this insitance, apparent or otherwise, comes from reading Steiner
with the simplistic interpretations I've read on this site? When I learned
about these other civilizations, it was NOT in an ordinal fashion. With the
exception of a cronological ranking, I remember no normative values being part
of classroom instruction. And we are talking about Waldorf education, not
Rudolf Steiner's personal beliefs, right?
) insistence that european 'civilisation' is
) ) the most superior and highly evolved.
)
) The problem, Carl, is that this all traces back to Steiner.
I would interject that it all traces back to interpretations of Steiner. In
much the same way the Nietzche was used by the Nazis and can easily be
scapegoated as a racist (again using simplistic interpretations), Steiner
(especially due to his fondness for esoterica and the gnostics) seems to lend
himself to over simplification and thus conceptual manipulation. I would point
out to those who to this day think inexorably tie Nietsche to fascist thought
that his is the intellectual birthright of the deconstructionalist and all the
(multifactional) ism's that were to follow. I hope the irony is striking, and
the parallels appreciated.One last anecdote that I leared during college,
Steiner was commissioned by Nietzsche's sister to educate her in the traditions
of her brother. Nietzsche sister had married a Nazi and cut herself off from
her brother during his lifetime. Steiner (a Nietzschean scholar, I guess) gave
it the old college try, but gave up after only a little while, saying it was a
hopeless proposition. I think I read this in Kaufman's biography, but not
sure.
) While many
) Waldorf schools are serious about including more mythology and fairy tales
) from other cultures, you're not going to pry anthroposophists away from
) the idea that, at the present time, Europe is the center and culmination
) of the spiritual evolution of humanity. In other words, I think you can
) get some reform on the surface, and that's a good thing, but there is an
) underlying bias that, I think, will not go away.
)
) That's not limited to Waldorf, of course, but in Waldorf there is a
) special problem in trying to get people to see Europe as something other
) than the most highly evolved society.
)
)
) Steve Premo http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
) "Computers, huh? I guess they're OK... if you've got the time"
) --Barry "The Flash" Allen
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Bay Area: Eugene Schwartz talk 4/1
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 08:43:28 -0800
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Eugene Schwartz will be giving a lecture "Adolescence: it's more than
hormones" at the East Bay Waldorf School tonight (April 1) at 7:30.
East Bay Waldorf School
3800 Clark Road
El Sobrante, CA
(510) 223-3570
(they moved summer '96)
I heard his talk "Children of the 60's, parents of the 90's" at the Marin
Waldof School last night. He's a brilliant, funny, and thought-provoking
speaker. Don't miss him if it's at all possible.
-Dan Dugan
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From: angelica hesse (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: Re: Defensiveness, Elitism, etc
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:02:54 -0500 (EST)
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In-Reply-To: (199803301702.JAA22641 lists1.best.com) from "Dan Dugan" at Mar 30, 98 09:00:40 am
) )The further we move from a sense that there may be more
) )than to existence than just this earth life the closer we move to a culture
) )that is based exclusively on a 'me' concept, on materialism, on selfishness,
) )on greed.
) One could just as well say that as long as we use imaginary deities to
) justify our prejudices the longer we will stay in bondage to them.
) Materialism*, selfishness, and greed are human weaknesses that afflict the
) religious just as much as the godless.
Dan, you're missing the point of what I wrote. What I'm imagining is a
society where everyone assumes they live this life only. THe "do it while
you can, you only live once" attitude. Inevitably, I expect this would lead
to pepole living for themselves. If there is nothing else to existence,
yes, why not make the most of it? In america, making the most of things
already means having more stuff, being more successful, having more power.
This unfortunately leads to others having less of all those things. I see
it as greedy and irresponsible. My fears are that this is where society
would head if we no longer had any sense of a larger mission in our lives;
somethign beyond the here and now, beyond today, beyond the material things
of the world. And yes, materialism afflicts all of us, at least at soem
point. As do greed, etc. My feeling however, is that a snese of a greater
purpose to our lives sort of reminds us not to place possessions, power etc
ahead of everything adn everyone else.
) * I use "materialism" here in the perjorative sense, meaning attachment to
) wealth and possessions, not in the philosophical sense meaning rejection of
) the existence of a spiritual world. Religious people like to overlook this
) distinction.
WEll, and for clarity's sake, I'd like to state taht I use materialism
slightly differently again. I see it as putting material things before
social or spiritual issues (no matter what one's beliefs actually are).
) "Humanism contends that human beings are a part of nature, that they have
) emerged as a result of a continuous evolutionary process, and that all
) their values--religious, ethical, political, and social--have their source
) in human experience and are the product of their culture." (American
) Humanist Association)
One perspective, but by no means the only one. I happen to feel strongly
that human beings are not simply a product of nature, of evolution. That
our religions, etc have their roots in something beyond just our daily
experiencs. But that's my perspective. I guess no one can really say which
is truer for certain, but we can continue to examin the different
perspectives comparing them to life, seeing how they help to improve society
(or don't).
Angelica G. Hesse
hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n702 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n703 --------------
001 - angelica hesse (hesse96 m - Re: Eurocentrism, "gringoism"
002 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: Defensiveness, Elitism, etc
003 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Defensiveness, Elitism, etc
004 - angelica hesse (hesse96 m - Re: Defensiveness, Elitism, etc
005 - angelica hesse (hesse96 m - Re: Bay Area: Eugene Schwartz talk 4/1
006 - Michael Kopp (mkopp actri - Re: Defensiveness, Elitism, etc
007 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Defensiveness, Elitism, etc
008 - "c.mcilroy" (c.mcilroy el - Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n702
009 - Angelica (hesse96 matrix. - Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n702
010 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n702
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From: angelica hesse (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: Re: Eurocentrism, "gringoism"
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:21:13 -0500 (EST)
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In-Reply-To: (199803301736.JAA19754 lists1.best.com) from "Ezra Beeman" at Mar 30, 98 09:34:14 am
) When I was in 'lower school', those years from 1st through 8th grade, I think that
) I cannot recall having much in the way of Latin American history. It seems to me
) that the history taught flowed from the cradle of civilization (babylon and persia)
) and their myths, through the mostly occidental traditions until the culmination of
) American history. Now while it is true that greek and roman histories were a point
) of focus, as were the medieval and reformation periods, in lower school, in high
) school things changed and I had 'blocks' on Africa and Latin America.
I'll back this up with my experiences. I too recall lower school dealing
with similar things: starting with fairy tales, fables, old testament
stories, norse myths, greek and egyptian mythology, early roman history,
then the settling of america (?)... Geography studies started with our
classroom, then our village, county, state, country, and finally the world -
we were eached asked to pick a country and report on it. Looking primarily at
the early settling of these areas by the groups that live here today, as
well as the issues of the original native inhabitants. I also definitely
remember making a map of south america, which means that some extensive time
was devoted to that. My sense, however, was that in these years history
dealt predominantly on teh roots of teh cultures that settled america, in
others words teh source of our culture.
High school brought more comprehensive studies of the world: more modern history, though not a lot, of europe and the
US as well as a look at recent politics throughout the world. Also
important was a block on world religions, which looked extensively at
religions of india, china, the middle east, south america, etc.
Obviously, I have no idea how history is taught in waldorf schools in areas
whose culture has not grown out of the middle east and europe. I'd be
interested to know. To me, most of this made sense, because it was consider
predominantly where we as a culture had come from, both the good and the
bad. Other cultures were looked at as a comparison, adn presented in and
equlaly favorable light to our own. personally, I often thought other
cultures were actually more positive and successful in many ways than our
own!
) I find a great deal of the debate in this discussion group to be ironical. when it
) comes to the 'multiculturalism' of WE. Before there was multicultursalism, as it
) exist today in the university and the press, there was WE history. In fact, I
) often boast to my peers of the multicultural history I obtained in high school
) (while everyone else became exposed in college).
Yes, I'll second that. I felt I had been greatly exposed to other cultures,
especially ancient history, that many of my peers weren't as familiar with.
Sure helped in my first college history class. In fact, I drew mostly on my
memories from high schoo, and did pretty well not reading teh textbook!
) Finally, it has been my experience that WE reflects a great deal of the local
) culture. For example, at my school, the two other languages were German and
) Spanish. German the obvious bastion of Steiner and Goethe and WE in general, while
) Spanish reflected local realities (west coast). On the east coast I am told it is
) usually French and German.
Yes, on the east coast, we had french adn german. Though later classes had
spanish instead of french. I've even seen a school that does spanish and
russian (which is a bit hard in teh lower school, due to teh new alphabet).
I's interesting, having german (my family comes from switzerland, too).
It's a fairly commonly used language in teh world today, but very few people
seem to kow it. They're always impressed that I do!....
I fear I'm getting scattered a bit, but I wanted to share some of our
content, as I recall it.
Angelica G) Hesse
hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu
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From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Defensiveness, Elitism, etc
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:24:44 +0000
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References: (199803301702.JAA22641 lists1.best.com) from "Dan Dugan" at Mar 30, 98 09:00:40 am
In-Reply-To: (199804011704.JAA22737 lists1.best.com)
On 1 Apr 98 , angelica hesse wrote:
) What I'm imagining is a society where everyone assumes they live this
) life only. THe "do it while you can, you only live once" attitude.
) Inevitably, I expect this would lead to pepole living for themselves.
) If there is nothing else to existence, yes, why not make the most of it?
Angelica, this makes sense in an abstract sort of way, but people I know
who do not believe in life after death (my parents and my in-laws) are
quite unselfish people. These examples show me that people don't need the
threat of bad karma, eternal damnation, or other after-death consequences
to live relatively selfless lives.
I suspect that a survey attempting to correlate beliefs about life after
death to selfishness would find no correlation one way or the other.
One problem, though, with assuming that people who are spiritual are more
moral, considerate of others, and so on is that it can lead to an attitude
of prejudice toward those who have not "seen the light." This is a
destructive attitude (although I'm not saying that you have exhibited such
an attitude).
Steve Premo http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
"Computers, huh? I guess they're OK... if you've got the time"
--Barry "The Flash" Allen
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n703.3 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Defensiveness, Elitism, etc
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 09:53:56 -0800
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angelica hesse wrote:
) ) )The further we move from a sense that there may be more
) ) )than to existence than just this earth life the closer we move to a culture
) ) )that is based exclusively on a 'me' concept, on materialism, on selfishness,
) ) )on greed.
) ) One could just as well say that as long as we use imaginary deities to
) ) justify our prejudices the longer we will stay in bondage to them.
) ) Materialism*, selfishness, and greed are human weaknesses that afflict the
) ) religious just as much as the godless.
)
) Dan, you're missing the point of what I wrote. What I'm imagining is a
) society where everyone assumes they live this life only. THe "do it while
) you can, you only live once" attitude. Inevitably, I expect this would lead
) to pepole living for themselves. If there is nothing else to existence,
) yes, why not make the most of it? In america, making the most of things
) already means having more stuff, being more successful, having more power.
) This unfortunately leads to others having less of all those things. I see
) it as greedy and irresponsible. My fears are that this is where society
) would head if we no longer had any sense of a larger mission in our lives;
I always curious as to who gets to set the larger agenda....Usually such
relativistic diologues, if they are true to their dogma, become quickly mired in
the factionalism that they are spawned from. I would also like to stand up for
me, at least as Devil's (natures) advocate. There are strong and robust arguments
for the Me in nature. Darwin and later, Stephan J. Gould (sic?), explored the role
of me in evolution and biology in general. Survival of the fittest, a distinctly
Me doctrine and an integral tenat of evolution, can still explain altruism in
nature. Briefly, momma bear would give up her life to save her three children as
each carry .5 of her genes and three times .5 is 1.5, an easy Me calcualtion. This
whole topic is explored in greater, and far more entertaining, detail in Gould's
"Ever Since Darwin." Another example of (probably good) Me is found in economic
theory, where the invisible hand of Me allocates resources efficiently in a given
Market. There is obviously alot of room for contention here, as efficient does not
equal good or just in many minds, so please don't miscontrue my comments as
(purported) fact, merely observation.
) somethign beyond the here and now, beyond today, beyond the material things
) of the world. And yes, materialism afflicts all of us, at least at soem
) point. As do greed, etc. My feeling however, is that a snese of a greater
) purpose to our lives sort of reminds us not to place possessions, power etc
) ahead of everything adn everyone else.
)
) ) * I use "materialism" here in the perjorative sense, meaning attachment to
) ) wealth and possessions, not in the philosophical sense meaning rejection of
) ) the existence of a spiritual world. Religious people like to overlook this
) ) distinction.
)
) WEll, and for clarity's sake, I'd like to state taht I use materialism
) slightly differently again. I see it as putting material things before
) social or spiritual issues (no matter what one's beliefs actually are).
As a materialist in the (hopefully) non-perjoritive sense, I appreciate Dan's
efforts at a distinction.
)
)
) ) "Humanism contends that human beings are a part of nature, that they have
) ) emerged as a result of a continuous evolutionary process, and that all
) ) their values--religious, ethical, political, and social--have their source
) ) in human experience and are the product of their culture." (American
) ) Humanist Association)
)
) One perspective, but by no means the only one. I happen to feel strongly
) that human beings are not simply a product of nature, of evolution. That
) our religions, etc have their roots in something beyond just our daily
) experiencs. But that's my perspective. I guess no one can really say which
) is truer for certain, but we can continue to examin the different
) perspectives comparing them to life, seeing how they help to improve society
) (or don't).
)
) Angelica G. Hesse
) hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n703.4 ---------------
From: angelica hesse (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: Re: Defensiveness, Elitism, etc
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 13:37:12 -0500 (EST)
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In-Reply-To: (199804011730.JAA18703 lists1.best.com) from "Steve Premo" at Apr 1, 98 09:24:44 am
) Angelica, this makes sense in an abstract sort of way, but people I know
) who do not believe in life after death (my parents and my in-laws) are
) quite unselfish people. These examples show me that people don't need the
) threat of bad karma, eternal damnation, or other after-death consequences
) to live relatively selfless lives.
Okay, I see where you're coming from. honestly, I tend to see it more not
as something that happens in each individual, but on a broader sense in teh
tone of the society. There are always good and upright people in the worst
societies, just as there are bad ones in the best places (and in churches,
and so on). I was imagining and overall trend. maybe it wouldn't happen,
but I get that feeling sometimes. And yes, I too have known perfectly
decent people with no spiritual beliefs.
I'd also like to note that when I speak of a sense of spirituality it's not
in the sense of a threat. TO me it's more an indication of my purpose in
this world, a direction in which to go. Religion and spirituality have
always been something possitive for me, and never made me feel threatened,
or coerced.... So maybe my perspective is somewhat different, because I
know a lot of people are driven to guilt by religions, etc...
) I suspect that a survey attempting to correlate beliefs about life after
) death to selfishness would find no correlation one way or the other.
it would certainly be interesting to do this, wouldn't it?
) One problem, though, with assuming that people who are spiritual are more
) moral, considerate of others, and so on is that it can lead to an attitude
) of prejudice toward those who have not "seen the light." This is a
) destructive attitude (although I'm not saying that you have exhibited such
) an attitude).
I dont' intend to say that they are necessarily more moral. I try very hard
not to have such an attitude, and would be ashamed if I did. Again, I'll
reiterate, I'm talking abotu a direction in life: is our purpose to acquire
things, to enjoy this life; or is it to make the world better, to try to
become a better person? I see these as two ends of a continuum, two
direction which people can choose from when deciding how to live their
lives. I would simply imagine that a belief in this one physical life only
would lead somewhat more toward the first, while a most spiritual belief
systems at least attempt to guide people more toward the second.
Does this make sense???
Angelica G. Hesse
hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n703.5 ---------------
From: angelica hesse (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: Re: Bay Area: Eugene Schwartz talk 4/1
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 13:40:05 -0500 (EST)
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In-Reply-To: (199804011646.IAA08289 lists1.best.com) from "Dan Dugan" at Apr 1, 98 08:43:28 am
) Eugene Schwartz will be giving a lecture "Adolescence: it's more than
) hormones" at the East Bay Waldorf School tonight (April 1) at 7:30.
) I heard his talk "Children of the 60's, parents of the 90's" at the Marin
) Waldof School last night. He's a brilliant, funny, and thought-provoking
) speaker. Don't miss him if it's at all possible.
) -Dan Dugan
I understand he's also a superb teacher. i've never seen him teachign, but
he's my godfather!! yes, definitely a very interesting person.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n703.6 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: Re: Defensiveness, Elitism, etc
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 13:50:12 +1200
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References: (199803301702.JAA22641 lists1.best.com) from "Dan Dugan" at
Mar 30, 98 09:00:40 am
In-Reply-To: (199804011704.JAA22737 lists1.best.com)
Angelica Hesse quotes Dan Dugan from a discussion they're having about
humanism versus spiritualism, but in the end she is typically dismissive of
anything but what she wants to believe (my comment at end):
)) )The further we move from a sense that there may be more
)) )than to existence than just this earth life the closer we move to a culture
)) )that is based exclusively on a 'me' concept, on materialism, on
))selfishness,
)) )on greed.
)) One could just as well say that as long as we use imaginary deities to
)) justify our prejudices the longer we will stay in bondage to them.
)) Materialism*, selfishness, and greed are human weaknesses that afflict the
)) religious just as much as the godless.
)
)Dan, you're missing the point of what I wrote. What I'm imagining is a
)society where everyone assumes they live this life only. THe "do it while
)you can, you only live once" attitude. Inevitably, I expect this would lead
)to pepole living for themselves. If there is nothing else to existence,
)yes, why not make the most of it? In america, making the most of things
)already means having more stuff, being more successful, having more power.
)This unfortunately leads to others having less of all those things. I see
)it as greedy and irresponsible. My fears are that this is where society
)would head if we no longer had any sense of a larger mission in our lives;
)somethign beyond the here and now, beyond today, beyond the material things
)of the world. And yes, materialism afflicts all of us, at least at soem
)point. As do greed, etc. My feeling however, is that a snese of a greater
)purpose to our lives sort of reminds us not to place possessions, power etc
)ahead of everything adn everyone else.
)
)
)) * I use "materialism" here in the perjorative sense, meaning attachment to
)) wealth and possessions, not in the philosophical sense meaning rejection of
)) the existence of a spiritual world. Religious people like to overlook this
)) distinction.
)
)WEll, and for clarity's sake, I'd like to state taht I use materialism
)slightly differently again. I see it as putting material things before
)social or spiritual issues (no matter what one's beliefs actually are).
)
)
)) "Humanism contends that human beings are a part of nature, that they have
)) emerged as a result of a continuous evolutionary process, and that all
)) their values--religious, ethical, political, and social--have their source
)) in human experience and are the product of their culture." (American
)) Humanist Association)
)
)One perspective, but by no means the only one. I happen to feel strongly
)that human beings are not simply a product of nature, of evolution. That
)our religions, etc have their roots in something beyond just our daily
)experiencs. But that's my perspective. I guess no one can really say which
)is truer for certain, but we can continue to examin the different
)perspectives comparing them to life, seeing how they help to improve society
)(or don't).
)
)Angelica G. Hesse
)hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu
KOPP says:
Humanism is "one perspective, but by no means the only one" says Hesse.
But "we can continue to examin the different perspectives comparing them to
life..."
I have never seen, on this list or any other devoted to Steiner/ Waldorf/
Anthroposophy (SWA), any real understanding, depth of knowledge, or time of
day for humanism on the part of any of the spiritualists who adhere to the
SWA way.
Like all true believers, there is only one path for them.
They mouth plattitudes, they talk about open-mindedness, they go on
ad-nauseam about their and their guru's spiritual insights (none of which
can be shown evidentially to anyone else, but have to be believed like
fairy tales).
But they begin by dismissing humanism and rationalism as a means of
understanding the world, and they end all discussion by exhorting those who
are skeptical of spiritualism to "do the work themselves" and they will
come to the same enlightenment. (It's mainly rationalism as a process
rather than humanism as a philosophy which is the general motivator of most
critical thinkers here.)
(it's cyclical, depending on the SWA newbies who arrive on this list
without reading the archives to see that we've all been there, done that
already) for the last couple of weeks. I've stayed quiet (send thanks via
private email) but I do want to remind old-timers of, and alert newcomers
to, some list realities.
I'll state my personal position yet again (for the newbies who don't read
archives)
I don't care what anyone believes about spirituality, as long as they don't
use those beliefs in any way in the education of my children. PRIVATE SWA
schools may teach anything they want based on any crazy nonsense they want.
But PUBLIC SWA schools in the U.S., and publicly-funded SWA schools
anywhere (as here in New Zealand) have higher obligations, both legal and
ethical.
In my personal experience, our Steiner school in New Zealand was guilty of
such unethical behaviour, which may also be illegal or contrary to
regulation, and this is consistent with great numbers of other reported
instances on this list.
This list is, for me, not about discussing the fine points of epistemology
or spiritualism versus rationality. It is not about a meeting of the minds
between SWA apologists, believers and defenders of the faith and doubters,
skeptics or rejectors. I am a rejector. I do not want anything to do with
SWA in any way.
This list is about the hidden spiritualist influence in SWA education, and
the duplicity of the SWA movement in not admitting its spiritualist agenda
to parents before their children are sucked in.
We and our children were duped and sucked in, despite extra search and
study before we signed on. I believe we were knowingly duped by SWA people
whose agenda was their own, not the state's or ours. SWA is guilty of false
advertising, both here and, apparently, in most places.
This list is about exposing and criticising the faults in SWA education. It
is not about helping make SWA education better (this list is replete with
horror stories of how SWA is monolithically unchanging and unchangeable).
It is about making it more honest and accountable where parents decide to
make it so in PRIVATE SWA schools, and where parents and the law demand it
in PUBLIC or publicly-funded SWA schools.
This list is also about the quality or lack thereof of the SWA _education_
in terms of knowledge and ability to think critically, not to become
wonderful people and warm human beings.
I and most, if not all, SWA critics, agree that, for the most part, SWA
education produces nice people -- but that's not enough. I think most
children survive SWA education because they are, mostly, from upper
socio-economic and intelligence levels in society -- not because they are
well-eduated.
(Our Steiner school has failed to meet state standards for teaching of the
state curriculum for all of the five years that it has been publicly funded
and required to teach the state curriculum alongside the "special
character" curriculum -- the SWA spiritualist agenda. Yet the toothless
state education review office has done little to ensure the school
complies. And the school does not anywhere report on the review to parents,
or make the review available to prospective parents, or even mention it.)
Recent thinking, comments and writing by SWA adherents and graduates on
this list leads me to the reinforcement of my belief that SWA produces
wooly thinkers who are so "open-minded" that they believe anything may be
possible and do not know how to make judgements about reality. Nor can they
actually explain, in coherent, plain, expository English, what they
actually mean or believe. And when their maunderings are challenged or
questioned, they become defensive and repeat the "open-minded" mantra.
I have also seen this wooly thinking firsthand with my own and other
children in our school. Since my children have returned to the secular
education system, they have, while at once having greater
self-possessedness and self-confidence about their own abilities,
demonstrated deficiencies in critical thought and reasoning, especially in
the use of language, which require remedial work.
I am not averse to relations with spiritualists -- except that I think most
of them are on another planet and it's difficult to have a conversation
where we're not talking past each other.
Hesse's typical dismissiveness of humanism (and reason) is an indicator of
this.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n703.7 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Defensiveness, Elitism, etc
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 19:01:40 -0800
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References: (199803301702.JAA22641 lists1.best.com) from "Dan Dugan" at
Mar 30, 98 09:00:40 am (199804020150.RAA29314 lists1.best.com)
I think it was Oscar Wilde who once said that a cynic is someone who knows the cost
of everything and the value of nothing. One of my favorites. I don't know whom to
quote on the difference between a cynic and a skeptic....
Michael Kopp wrote:
) )
) )
) )) * I use "materialism" here in the perjorative sense, meaning attachment to
) )) wealth and possessions, not in the philosophical sense meaning rejection of
) )) the existence of a spiritual world. Religious people like to overlook this
) )) distinction.
) )
) )WEll, and for clarity's sake, I'd like to state taht I use materialism
) )slightly differently again. I see it as putting material things before
) )social or spiritual issues (no matter what one's beliefs actually are).
) )
) )
) )) "Humanism contends that human beings are a part of nature, that they have
) )) emerged as a result of a continuous evolutionary process, and that all
) )) their values--religious, ethical, political, and social--have their source
) )) in human experience and are the product of their culture." (American
) )) Humanist Association)
) )
) )One perspective, but by no means the only one. I happen to feel strongly
) )that human beings are not simply a product of nature, of evolution. That
) )our religions, etc have their roots in something beyond just our daily
) )experiencs. But that's my perspective. I guess no one can really say which
) )is truer for certain, but we can continue to examin the different
) )perspectives comparing them to life, seeing how they help to improve society
) )(or don't).
) )
) )Angelica G. Hesse
) )hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu
)
)
) I have never seen, on this list or any other devoted to Steiner/ Waldorf/
) Anthroposophy (SWA), any real understanding, depth of knowledge, or time of
) day for humanism on the part of any of the spiritualists who adhere to the
) SWA way.
Question: Is one labeled by virtue of their spiritualism, or just guilty by
association? Also, whom do the humanists point to as seminal authors in the
field? Finally, do any of the skeptics here have any "real understanding, depth of
knowledge, or time of day for" mystic tradition? This broad category would
probably span from the Hermes Trimestigus, to the Kabbalists, to the Gnostics and
present day mystics like Crowley.
)
)
) Like all true believers, there is only one path for them.
) They mouth plattitudes, they talk about open-mindedness, they go on
) ad-nauseam about their and their guru's spiritual insights (none of which
) can be shown evidentially to anyone else, but have to be believed like
) fairy tales).
Self evident truths are hard to come by, please share.
)
)
) But they begin by dismissing humanism and rationalism as a means of
) understanding the world, and they end all discussion by exhorting those who
) are skeptical of spiritualism to "do the work themselves" and they will
) come to the same enlightenment. (It's mainly rationalism as a process
) rather than humanism as a philosophy which is the general motivator of most
) critical thinkers here.)
)
) We've been treated to a spectacle of more of this spiritualist twaddle
) (it's cyclical, depending on the SWA newbies who arrive on this list
) without reading the archives to see that we've all been there, done that
) already) for the last couple of weeks. I've stayed quiet (send thanks via
) private email) but I do want to remind old-timers of, and alert newcomers
) to, some list realities.
) I'll state my personal position yet again (for the newbies who don't read
) archives)
)
) I don't care what anyone believes about spirituality, as long as they don't
) use those beliefs in any way in the education of my children.
Hmmm, unless everyone in the world is a materialist, like me, they might disagree
with such a hard line. Furthermore, I think you would be hard pressed to find
enough educators in general that fit your profile. Even most atheist I've
encountered aren't ready to embrace absolute materialism with all it's
philosophical, ethical and social ramifications.I would also use this time to point
out the distinct logical connections between metaphysical systems (spiritualism is
but one example. Ethics in general is a metaphysical discipline, ask Aristotle,
Socrates, Hume, Kant et all.) and materialism. I would argue a hard line that they
are mutually exclusive.
) PRIVATE SWA
) schools may teach anything they want based on any crazy nonsense they want.
) But PUBLIC SWA schools in the U.S., and publicly-funded SWA schools
) anywhere (as here in New Zealand) have higher obligations, both legal and
) ethical.
)
) In my personal experience, our Steiner school in New Zealand was guilty of
) such unethical behaviour, which may also be illegal or contrary to
) regulation, and this is consistent with great numbers of other reported
) instances on this list.
)
However, I wouldn't contest this. I think that Waldorf schools, as with anything
of any ideology, err in their application to some degree or other. I it my belief
that such discussion groups like this and people like Dan serve a very positive
watchdog function.
) This list is, for me, not about discussing the fine points of epistemology
) or spiritualism versus rationality. It is not about a meeting of the minds
) between SWA apologists, believers and defenders of the faith and doubters,
) skeptics or rejectors. I am a rejector. I do not want anything to do with
) SWA in any way.
)
You seem to be in conflict of your own categorical imperative.
) This list is about the hidden spiritualist influence in SWA education, and
) the duplicity of the SWA movement in not admitting its spiritualist agenda
) to parents before their children are sucked in.
)
) We and our children were duped and sucked in, despite extra search and
) study before we signed on. I believe we were knowingly duped by SWA people
) whose agenda was their own, not the state's or ours. SWA is guilty of false
) advertising, both here and, apparently, in most places.
Sounds like bitter grapes.
)
)
) This list is about exposing and criticising the faults in SWA education. It
) is not about helping make SWA education better (this list is replete with
) horror stories of how SWA is monolithically unchanging and unchangeable).
)
) It is about making it more honest and accountable where parents decide to
) make it so in PRIVATE SWA schools, and where parents and the law demand it
) in PUBLIC or publicly-funded SWA schools.
)
) This list is also about the quality or lack thereof of the SWA _education_
) in terms of knowledge and ability to think critically, not to become
) wonderful people and warm human beings.
Critical thinking is a hallmark of Waldorf education as far as my experince has
been. I don't think there is hard and fast data to back this up, but that is not
logical grounds for summary judgement. In fact, quite the contrary.
)
)
) I and most, if not all, SWA critics, agree that, for the most part, SWA
) education produces nice people -- but that's not enough. I think most
) children survive SWA education because they are, mostly, from upper
) socio-economic and intelligence levels in society -- not because they are
) well-eduated.
)
) (Our Steiner school has failed to meet state standards for teaching of the
) state curriculum for all of the five years that it has been publicly funded
) and required to teach the state curriculum alongside the "special
) character" curriculum -- the SWA spiritualist agenda. Yet the toothless
) state education review office has done little to ensure the school
) complies. And the school does not anywhere report on the review to parents,
) or make the review available to prospective parents, or even mention it.)
)
) Recent thinking, comments and writing by SWA adherents and graduates on
) this list leads me to the reinforcement of my belief that SWA produces
) wooly thinkers who are so "open-minded" that they believe anything may be
) possible and do not know how to make judgements about reality. Nor can they
) actually explain, in coherent, plain, expository English, what they
) actually mean or believe. And when their maunderings are challenged or
) questioned, they become defensive and repeat the "open-minded" mantra.
)
) I have also seen this wooly thinking firsthand with my own and other
) children in our school. Since my children have returned to the secular
) education system, they have, while at once having greater
) self-possessedness and self-confidence about their own abilities,
) demonstrated deficiencies in critical thought and reasoning, especially in
) the use of language, which require remedial work.
Wow, that is a fantastic anecdote. However, I do agree that the three R's are WE
Achilles heel.
)
)
) I am not averse to relations with spiritualists -- except that I think most
) of them are on another planet and it's difficult to have a conversation
) where we're not talking past each other.
)
) Hesse's typical dismissiveness of humanism (and reason) is an indicator of
) this.
Ezra
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n703.8 ---------------
From: "c.mcilroy" (c.mcilroy elvis.murdoch.edu.au)
Subject: Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n702
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 21:53:35 +0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
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hi everyone
steve wrote..
)in Waldorf there is a
)special problem in trying to get people to see Europe as something other
)than the most highly evolved society.
according to your understanding, why is the problem more special in WE than
elsewhere, when the whole western world is constructed on the cartesian
dualistic paradigm which set up hierarchical thinking in the first place?
please explain.
to ezra..
racism, sexism, ethnocentrism etc pervade all modern western education
systems, including WE, i believe. the matter needs attending to everywhere.
how do you think they can be addressed specifically within the framework of
WE and steiner philosophy? for example, how can the study of the evolution
of human consciousness in the primary curriculum be more inclusive of
'other' cultures; how can the study of 'human' consciousness be more
inclusive of women in his-story? please remember, i am for WE, just against
the dominating 'isms', and am seeking constructive critique.
carl
)
________________________________
c.mcilroy student.murdoch.edu.au
________________________________
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n703.9 ---------------
From: Angelica (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n702
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 11:15:11 +0100
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References: (199804021354.FAA11488 lists1.best.com)
c.mcilroy wrote:
) racism, sexism, ethnocentrism etc pervade all modern western education
) systems, including WE, i believe. the matter needs attending to everywhere.
) how do you think they can be addressed specifically within the framework of
) WE and steiner philosophy? for example, how can the study of the evolution
) of human consciousness in the primary curriculum be more inclusive of
) 'other' cultures; how can the study of 'human' consciousness be more
) inclusive of women in his-story? please remember, i am for WE, just against
) the dominating 'isms', and am seeking constructive critique.
Carl, you might be very interested to take a look at the waldorf
supporters list. It's administered from StJohns.edu. I don't have the
exact address at the moment, but can send it to you if you want. The
list is just called waldorf,and is findable via a yahoo search. They
are currently having an interesting discussion over there on diversity
issues....
Angelica
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n703.10 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n702
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:25:19 +0000
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In-Reply-To: (199804021354.FAA11488 lists1.best.com)
On 2 Apr 98 , c.mcilroy wrote:
) steve wrote..
) )in Waldorf there is a
) )special problem in trying to get people to see Europe as something other
) )than the most highly evolved society.
)
) according to your understanding, why is the problem more special in WE
) than elsewhere, when the whole western world is constructed on the
) cartesian dualistic paradigm which set up hierarchical thinking in the
) first place?
There are others on this list who can explain this better than I, but
basically Steiner saw different societies as having different roles in the
spiritual evolution of society. I don't recall all the details offhand,
although I have read them.
Basically, starting with Lemuria, and through Atlantis, ancient India,
Persia, Egypt, the Greeks, the Hebrews, and Europe, each society had
particular skills and attributes, and the people had particular abilities,
that were fundamentally different. In the earliest societies, people had
the ability to see the spiritual realm directly, and it was more "real" to
them than the physical realm. Later, I think it was only the kings that
had the direct line to the spiritual realm, so they really did rule by
"divine right." Finally, with the Greeks, the people became more
completely aware of the physical world, and rationality and democracy
became the order of the day.
I think the Hebrews' role was to evolve into a physical form sufficient to
receive the Christ (or Christs, I think there were two), whose coming has
some kind of special significance with respect to bringing the physical
and spiritual together.
Finally, in present-day Europe, this synthesis of the spiritual and
physical is becoming more complete, which is the hallmark of the Michaelic
age.
This is all off the top of my head. Would Dan or anyone like to step in
and correct me where I'm wrong, and explain it better?
Anyway, with this specific concept of the special role of white people in
the spiritual evolution of humanity, it is unlikely that anthroposophists
are likely to see Europeans as something other than the most spiritually
evolved people.
Now, Carl, I have some questions for you. You said:
) the whole western world is constructed on the cartesian dualistic
) paradigm which set up hierarchical thinking in the first place...
What is hierarchical thinking? What is the cartesian dualistic paradigm?
In what way did the cartesian dualistic paradigm set up hierarchical
thinking? How is the western world constructed on the cartesian dualistic
paradigm?
What you said sounds really good, but as I'm not well versed in
philosophy, I have no idea what it means.
Steve Premo http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
"Computers, huh? I guess they're OK... if you've got the time"
--Barry "The Flash" Allen
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n703 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n704 --------------
001 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n702
002 - lark involved.com (Lark J - Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n702
003 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n702
004 - lark involved.com (Lark J - Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n702
005 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n702
006 - angelica hesse (hesse96 m - Re: Defensiveness, Elitism, etc
007 - angelica hesse (hesse96 m - Re: Defensiveness, Elitism, etc
008 - angelica hesse (hesse96 m - Computers in waldorf
009 - angelica hesse (hesse96 m - Lark's Questions
010 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Defensiveness, Elitism, etc
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n704.1 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n702
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 10:22:50 -0800
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References: (199804021354.FAA11488 lists1.best.com)
c.mcilroy wrote:
) to ezra..
) racism, sexism, ethnocentrism etc pervade all modern western education
) systems, including WE, i believe.
With the exception of a few exceptional examples, all the isms you mentioned are
evidenced in _all_cultures_. Traditions distinct to western culture set the
course for the identification and discussion of these predjudices which stem
mostly from bigotry (I would assert).If anyone would like to proffer an example
of cultural egalitariansim I have overlooked, please do.
Again, the only evidence in WE of the racism and sexism you want to address is
to be found in the time spent on the respective subjects. I, nor anyone I know
from WE, was _ever_ told, implied or otherwise conveyed, that white males from
Germany were better than anyone else. Now one may say that the message is
implicit, and I say if your paranoid, everything is implicit. Read some Kafka,
or my favorite, Pynchon.
) the matter needs attending to everywhere.
) how do you think they can be addressed specifically within the framework of
) WE and steiner philosophy?
Honestly, I Dan would be a better source of the ins and outs of Steiner
philosphy as it is written. In my 12 years of WE I never read a Steiner book.
They gave me one when I graduated and I might be able to dig it up, but I have
never been compelled to do so.
) for example, how can the study of the evolution
) of human consciousness in the primary curriculum be more inclusive of
) 'other' cultures;
Why should it be more inclusive? There are only so many hours in the day, and
it is an opinion that WE already doesn't spend enough time on fundamentals. I
would also like someone to type out the cannon of cultures to be included. When
we can all agree on the list, then we can move onto the list of other factions
(isms) and when these lists are sorted out, then we can discuss implementation.
) how can the study of 'human' consciousness be more
) inclusive of women in his-story? please remember, i am for WE, just against
) the dominating 'isms', and am seeking constructive critique.
I appreciate the spirit of your question, but I think you should consider the
opportunity costs of changing an already very liberal education. Also, I think
that such a reformation would run counter to the beliefs of the more skeptical
on this list, who are calling for a more conservative incarnation of WE.
)
)
) carl
)
) )
)
) ________________________________
) c.mcilroy student.murdoch.edu.au
) ________________________________
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n704.2 ---------------
From: lark involved.com (Lark Jarvis)
Subject: Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n702
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 10:33:13 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199804021354.FAA11488 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199804021730.JAA10919 lists1.best.com)
At 09:25 AM 4/2/98 +0000, Steve wrote:
)Basically, starting with Lemuria, and through Atlantis,
(snip)
Is there evidence (legitimate archaelogical, historical, ect.) that
suggests Lemuria and Atlantis existed anywhere outside Steiner's
imagination? Sorry if, as a new subscriber, I'm plowing through old
territory or showing my ignorance, but that seems to me to be a rather
pertinent place to start .. . .
(snip)
You also wrote:
)Now, Carl, I have some questions for you. (snip)
I'm not Carl, but I'll try to field this one, as it seems to be my major
beef with WE's whole religious outlook . . .
you ask:
What is the cartesian dualistic paradigm?
In a nutshell, the Cartesian dualistic paradigm refers to the "deal" that
the Church made with the burgeoning field of science (exact dates are bad,
here . . . . I THINK it was around the 1500's or 1600's--sorry--my public
school education showing through, here . . ;) Anyway, the Church
essentially said it was perfectly fine with them for the scientists to
study the body as a *mechanistic* system, as long as the realm of the
spirit was left to the Church. (formally separating mind from body, in
other words). Every bit of research we now have, particularly in the field
of psychoneuroimmunology, suggests that any such division is quite
artificial (see especially the work of hard scientist Candace Pert, PhD, as
excerpted in Bill Moyers' _Healing and the Mind_. The research saying that
body/mind/spirit are inextricably connected is consistently there, from
numerous sources, but the profound philosophical/theological paradigm shift
to which such research necessarily leads us is, of course, occurring much
more slowly . . .). (Question for those who'd know--in a Waldorf
curriculum, would a high-schooler ever even be *exposed* to such research,
such profound ideas and such hard scientific research??)
Now, the personal conflict I have here, as a massage therapist who'd LOVE
for my hypothetical children to get the kind of kinesthetic education that
WE offers is: ironically, Steiner's theological sense seems to be
struggling/toying with, but not actually quite articulating the *repair* of
the Cartesian split (which we've only had actual scientific evidence for in
the last 15-20 yrs or so . . . ). But his theology doesn't quite make it.
Side note, here--a few years ago, when I first encountered a little bit of
Steiner's writings, the thing that instantly jumped out at me as quite
loopy was the bit about seeing "auras" around living things, all that. Now
that I've lived in Oregon for a while, and actually know quite a few
"perfectly regular, normal" people who see auras and feel energy fields, I
don't think that's loopy at all (and I wish I could develop those abilities
myself, as a bodyworker!) Now, however, I have problems with any system of
theological thought that in any way separates spirit from body, or god from
the world (I forget the exact theological term for that . . . ). Seems
that Steiner does both--(no fault of his, I guess--at the time he was
writing, it probably seemed to make sense . . . ). In any case, that makes
me wish I could just get the kinesthetic part of WE education without the
bizarre religious *belief system* part.
And, referring to someone's statement yesterday or day before about "people
who are more spiritual than others," well, ummmmm, see below. My experience
has been that belief systems and understanding of what spirituality
actually is (that is, that we all "have it," or more accurately, ARE it,
whether we think about it or not) are two ENTIRELY different things. Along
those lines, does anybody know of any research that delves into the
question: How many Waldorf educators who've thrived in the training
environment, or actual proponents of Anthroposophy come from backgrounds
that have more than the usual amount of religious fundamentalism? I wonder.
The *need* to cling to such complex, "revealed" belief systems usually
indicates a long family history of such belief systems . . . different
content, same structure . . .
Lark Jarvis, LMT
Portland, OR
*********************************************************
"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience, but rather
spiritual beings having a human experience."
--Teilhard de Chardin
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n704.3 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n702
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 12:55:25 -0800
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References: (199804021354.FAA11488 lists1.best.com) (199804021846.KAA18536 lists1.best.com)
Lark Jarvis wrote:
) At 09:25 AM 4/2/98 +0000, Steve wrote:
)
) )Basically, starting with Lemuria, and through Atlantis,
) (snip)
)
) Is there evidence (legitimate archaelogical, historical, ect.) that
) suggests Lemuria and Atlantis existed anywhere outside Steiner's
) imagination?
Other than oral tradition and multicultural mythology, there is probably not
alot there. Ice bridges are currently in vogue explanations of how early man got
around. Plate Tectonics, a revolutionary concept of Edward Mallory around the
turn of the century led to other important geological discoveries like sea floor
spreading. Steiner was not the first, or most original in his philosophy of
history. Lastly, Steiner's vision of history and philosophy of history is NOT
taught in WE.
) Sorry if, as a new subscriber, I'm plowing through old
) territory or showing my ignorance, but that seems to me to be a rather
) pertinent place to start .. . .
) (snip)
) You also wrote:
) )Now, Carl, I have some questions for you. (snip)
)
) I'm not Carl, but I'll try to field this one, as it seems to be my major
) beef with WE's whole religious outlook . . .
) you ask:
) What is the cartesian dualistic paradigm?
) In a nutshell, the Cartesian dualistic paradigm refers to the "deal" that
) the Church made with the burgeoning field of science (exact dates are bad,
) here . . . .
This is a political explanation (one I am vaguely familiar with). Beginning
with Descartes, and Spinoza as well, philosophers looked at the world (in a very
large sense) as being fundamentally split in nature. There was a dualism
between the physical world of the senses and the ethereal (spiritual) world of
the mind (and spirit). This perspective is probably one of the dominant
paradigms of Occidental thought.
) Every bit of research we now have, particularly in the field
) of psychoneuroimmunology, suggests that any such division is quite
) artificial (see especially the work of hard scientist Candace Pert, PhD, as
) excerpted in Bill Moyers' _Healing and the Mind_.
While I applaud your materialism, I hesitate to be so cavalier. There a
precedents in math, physics, philosophy and complex systems theory that describe
a reality that is at least dual in nature, if not more. Inconsistency theorems,
singularities and emergent systems are some of the symptoms.
) The research saying that
) body/mind/spirit are inextricably connected is consistently there, from
) numerous sources, but the profound philosophical/theological paradigm shift
) to which such research necessarily leads us is, of course, occurring much
) more slowly . . .). (Question for those who'd know--in a Waldorf
) curriculum, would a high-schooler ever even be *exposed* to such research,
) such profound ideas and such hard scientific research??)
Are students in any high school exposed to such research? Since something like
90% of American's believe in Angels, I doubt it. Furthermore, I think you are
confusing bleeding edge theory with hard science. How about the socio-economic
shift? I don't think it would be pretty.
)
)
) Now, the personal conflict I have here, as a massage therapist who'd LOVE
) for my hypothetical children to get the kind of kinesthetic education that
) WE offers is: ironically, Steiner's theological sense seems to be
) struggling/toying with, but not actually quite articulating the *repair* of
) the Cartesian split (which we've only had actual scientific evidence for in
) the last 15-20 yrs or so . . . ). But his theology doesn't quite make it.
I agree to some degree. Steiner formed his theory given the split, but was not
sufficiently skeptical to presuppose the split itself.
)
)
) Side note, here--a few years ago, when I first encountered a little bit of
) Steiner's writings, the thing that instantly jumped out at me as quite
) loopy was the bit about seeing "auras" around living things, all that. Now
) that I've lived in Oregon for a while, and actually know quite a few
) "perfectly regular, normal" people who see auras and feel energy fields, I
) don't think that's loopy at all (and I wish I could develop those abilities
) myself, as a bodyworker!) Now, however, I have problems with any system of
) theological thought that in any way separates spirit from body, or god from
) the world (I forget the exact theological term for that . . . ). Seems
) that Steiner does both--(no fault of his, I guess--at the time he was
) writing, it probably seemed to make sense . . . ). In any case, that makes
) me wish I could just get the kinesthetic part of WE education without the
) bizarre religious *belief system* part.
Could you better define your use of kinesthic in the context of your letter? I
wonder what your thoughts on Eurythmy are? As a child and young adult in WE, my
main gripe was the compulsary Eurythmy I was subject to every week. I did
everything and anything I could think of to drop the class, avoid the class,
have the class cancelled.To this day I think it was a useless waste of time, but
to be fair I am NOT a big fan of dance in any form. Personally, I would
probably place Eurythmy high on my list of Anthro influences of my childhood.
The best explanation given at the time was that it helped our social
coordination (not the sodium pentothol solution commonly ascribe to here), an
unsatisfactory explanation to me. I am almost certain that there are
"sprititual reasonings" behind my own personal hell story, but were these taught
to me? Was I indoctrinated? I don't think so, I still hate Eurythmy.
)
)
) And, referring to someone's statement yesterday or day before about "people
) who are more spiritual than others," well, ummmmm, see below. My experience
) has been that belief systems and understanding of what spirituality
) actually is (that is, that we all "have it," or more accurately, ARE it,
) whether we think about it or not) are two ENTIRELY different things. Along
) those lines, does anybody know of any research that delves into the
) question: How many Waldorf educators who've thrived in the training
) environment, or actual proponents of Anthroposophy come from backgrounds
) that have more than the usual amount of religious fundamentalism?
Most of my teachers (no Gallup polls available), came from mainstream
education. None were washouts or unsuccessfull at what they did. Quickly, my
(HS) history teacher was an AP correspondant and Yale alum, my chemistry and
physic teacher was an electrical engineer (from South America), my english
teacher was either a PhD candidate or had the credential (in English lit I
believe). My paleantology/natural sciences teacher worked for an FX company in
LA, but was an educated Paleantologist (and my introduction to Stephen J.
Gould. These are all teachers at the Sacramento Waldorf School (Next to the
Rudolf Steiner college). Most of the kids I graduated (at least at the time)
thought the RSC people were a bunch of wierdos on the hill. In fact,
Anthroposophy was constantly ridiculed by the SWS HS students. Would adolescent
rebellion have it any other way?
Ezra Beeman
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n704.4 ---------------
From: lark involved.com (Lark Jarvis)
Subject: Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n702
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 14:01:33 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199804021354.FAA11488 lists1.best.com)
(199804021846.KAA18536 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199804022056.MAA20609 lists1.best.com)
At 12:55 PM 4/2/98 -0800, Ezra wrote, re: Lemuria, etc:
)history. Lastly, Steiner's vision of history and philosophy of history is
NOT
)taught in WE.
)
Good, that's all I wanted to know! ;)
)) Sorry if, as a new subscriber, I'm plowing through old
)) In a nutshell, the Cartesian dualistic paradigm refers to the "deal" that
)) the Church made with the burgeoning field of science (exact dates are bad,
)) here . . . .
)
)This is a political explanation (one I am vaguely familiar with). Beginning
)with Descartes, and Spinoza as well, philosophers looked at the world (in
a very
)large sense) as being fundamentally split in nature. There was a dualism
)between the physical world of the senses and the ethereal (spiritual)
world of
)the mind (and spirit). This perspective is probably one of the dominant
)paradigms of Occidental thought.
)
Agreed. Can't pin all the blame on the Church . . . ;)
I wrote: The research saying that
)) body/mind/spirit are inextricably connected is consistently there, from
)) numerous sources, but the profound philosophical/theological paradigm shift
)) to which such research necessarily leads us is, of course, occurring much
)) more slowly . . .). (Question for those who'd know--in a Waldorf
)) curriculum, would a high-schooler ever even be *exposed* to such research,
)) such profound ideas and such hard scientific research??)
)
)Are students in any high school exposed to such research? Since something
like
)90% of American's believe in Angels, I doubt it.
Well, given the high-powered types you list below as having been your
teachers, obviously we're not talking about "Joe Six-pacs," y'know? . . .
Clearly, those people are going to be bright enought that SOME coherent (?)
philosophy/worldview most likely underlies their teaching. I just wanted
to know if Steiner's ideas/worldview at all influenced what/how they taught.
Furthermore, I think you are
)confusing bleeding edge theory with hard science.
Actually, I believe Candace Pert, at one time, either received grant money
from, or worked for the NIH. They don't exactly fund bleeding edge
research, generally . . .
How about the socio-economic
)shift? I don't think it would be pretty.
WHAT socio-economic shift? I'm not sure I understand the question. Noone
argues that there are widening cultural/economic gulfs anyway . . . which
ANY private education only deepens . . . That's life.
Now, however, I have problems with any system of
)) theological thought that in any way separates spirit from body, or god from
)) the world (I forget the exact theological term for that . . . ). Seems
)) that Steiner does both--(no fault of his, I guess--at the time he was
)) writing, it probably seemed to make sense . . . ). In any case, that makes
)) me wish I could just get the kinesthetic part of WE education without the
)) bizarre religious *belief system* part.
)
)Could you better define your use of kinesthic in the context of your letter?
Meaning that movement and learning are inseparable. That is, kids with
proprioceptive problems are going to have a heck of a time learning math,
in any setting, and that reading can't occur before certain physiological
stages of development happen (binocularity of vision, etc etc--see HANDLE
Institute's website at http://www.handle.org for more info. BTW, HANDLE
actually works in conjunction with the Seattle Waldorf School, or at least
observations are done there . . .). Working on supporting physiological
developmental processes can't be all bad, right?
You ask: I
)wonder what your thoughts on Eurythmy are?
Actually, I'm wondering if you could tell me a little more about it. I
confess I've never seen it in action, and have little idea what it entails
in Real Life. It's very hard to find anything concrete about it in the
curriculum or on the Net. (hmmmm. that's never a good sign . . . ;) As a
bodyworker, I'm very curious as to what the underlying tenets and
techniques are. . .
On the surface, it sounds reasonable, and like a very good, scientifically
sound idea to have kids *moving* and learning, but how arcane is Eurhythmy
in RL? In your opinion, does it promote and enhance one's sense of somatic
grouding and sense of physical self-expression, or does it rigidly impede
it, and unwittingly reinforce most of Western Civilization's underlying
shame around bodies in general?
And, last Big Question: How is it overtly connected to Anthroposophy?
I wrote: Along
)) those lines, does anybody know of any research that delves into the
)) question: How many Waldorf educators who've thrived in the training
)) environment, or actual proponents of Anthroposophy come from backgrounds
)) that have more than the usual amount of religious fundamentalism?
)
Your reply:)Most of my teachers (no Gallup polls available), came from
mainstream
)education. None were washouts or unsuccessfull at what they did.
Quickly, my
)(HS) history teacher was an AP correspondant and Yale alum, my chemistry and
)physic teacher was an electrical engineer (from South America), my english
)teacher was either a PhD candidate or had the credential (in English lit I
)believe). My paleantology/natural sciences teacher worked for an FX
company in
)LA, but was an educated Paleantologist (and my introduction to Stephen J.
)Gould. These are all teachers at the Sacramento Waldorf School (Next to the
)Rudolf Steiner college). Most of the kids I graduated (at least at the time)
)thought the RSC people were a bunch of wierdos on the hill.
Hmmmm. Did you think the same of your *teachers*? (They were not RSC
grads, in other words??)
I'm really curious about what you have to say, here--what do you think
motivated these people to enter WE culture in the first place? Were they
people you'd want as role models for your own children (hypothetical or
no)? This is what would concern me most about sending a child to (most)
public schools--I remember very painfully well what it was like to be
smarter than the teacher, and to have teachers whose goals and worldviews
were apallingly small. I wouldn't want my child to spend 8 hrs a day with
them--sorry if that sounds elitist . . .I realize that not *all* public
school teachers are like that, but certainly many of the ones I encountered
were. That's what I'd seek to avoid. So, why do you think these people
chose Waldorf schools over any of the other private schools they could have
chosen to teach in? Did you detect a certain common rigidity in these people?
So I guess, all philosophical hair-splitting re: Steiner aside, I'd ask,
"Was your overall experience valuable, and would you send your child to a
Waldorf school? What were your least favorite, and most favorite things
about the situation and especially, the people you encountered?"
Feel free to ignore the question, and sorry if you've "been there, answered
that" too many times on the list already . .. Thanks for any input,
Lark
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n704.5 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n702
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 17:20:43 -0800
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199804021354.FAA11488 lists1.best.com)
(199804021846.KAA18536 lists1.best.com) (199804022212.OAA02322 lists1.best.com)
Lark Jarvis wrote:
) Well, given the high-powered types you list below as having been your
) teachers, obviously we're not talking about "Joe Six-pacs," y'know? . . .
) Clearly, those people are going to be bright enought that SOME coherent (?)
) philosophy/worldview most likely underlies their teaching. I just wanted
) to know if Steiner's ideas/worldview at all influenced what/how they taught.
)
Yes, I would say that Steiner's ideas/worldview influenced what/how they taught.
Anybody working so hard for so little (Waldorf teachers are very underpaid, none
making over 25,000) is probably doing it for ideological reasons.
) Furthermore, I think you are
) )confusing bleeding edge theory with hard science.
)
) Actually, I believe Candace Pert, at one time, either received grant money
) from, or worked for the NIH. They don't exactly fund bleeding edge
) research, generally . . .
Don't know who she is, I'll take your word for it. My point is that there are
many contemporary examples of controversial (bleeding edge theory) "hard"
scientists. NIH=National Institute of Health? BTW Did you read the seventh
grader's refutation of touch healing? I think the people behind that are
available at www.quackwatch.com , an interesting site.
)
)
) How about the socio-economic
) )shift? I don't think it would be pretty.
) WHAT socio-economic shift? I'm not sure I understand the question. Noone
) argues that there are widening cultural/economic gulfs anyway . . . which
) ANY private education only deepens . . . That's life.
Without getting into too much detail, the ramifications of the mind as nothing
special, as merely a clockwork orange (so to speak), ripple through the social
fabric of our society. What happens to percieved social contracts (like
democracy) based on the uniqueness of the human condition (our mind). If humans
are subject to the laws fo physics, chemistry and biology then they shall be
subject to technology. And everyone knows what happens when engineers are in
charge.... ; )
) )wonder what your thoughts on Eurythmy are?
)
) Actually, I'm wondering if you could tell me a little more about it. I
) confess I've never seen it in action, and have little idea what it entails
) in Real Life. It's very hard to find anything concrete about it in the
) curriculum or on the Net. (hmmmm. that's never a good sign . . . ;)
Not suprising since WE doesn't foster computer interfacing. It was an issue to
hand in typed essays in High School. I work in IT with UNIX, and Windows NT OS,
so I don't think it was crippling. Again, it is a symptom of 'educating the whole
child.' Or whatever the credo is. There is very little, if any, specialization in
WE (a very liberal tradition).
) As a
) bodyworker, I'm very curious as to what the underlying tenets and
) techniques are. . .
) On the surface, it sounds reasonable, and like a very good, scientifically
) sound idea to have kids *moving* and learning, but how arcane is Eurhythmy
) in RL? In your opinion, does it promote and enhance one's sense of somatic
) grouding and sense of physical self-expression, or does it rigidly impede
) it, and unwittingly reinforce most of Western Civilization's underlying
) shame around bodies in general?
What is RL? Real life?Well, there is a Eurythmy alphabet which is phonetically
based, but in three dimenshional space. You learn the vowels first as a youngster
and then progress to poetry in adolescence. The alphabet consists mainly of
upperbody movements, but some, like the 'fuh' sound, involve a slight step
forward. Combine this with moving around the room (barefoot, how pagan) in
various patterns with your fellow students, and I can see how an argument for
dexterity can be made. On the one hand, students are pantomiming the teacher
(rigid), on the other, the dance is choreographed by the teacher. I'm sure that
had I the urge, I could have joined the Eurythmy club and expressed myself to my
hearts desire.Since I had a bad attitude about it, I think my self-expression was
listlessness and the rigidity of the system usually gave me a B-.
) And, last Big Question: How is it overtly connected to Anthroposophy?
No idea, ask Dan.
) Hmmmm. Did you think the same of your *teachers*? (They were not RSC
) grads, in other words??)
Most of my teachers were older individuals with life experience in contrast to the
typical "anthro" who was young and wet behind the ears. Another important
difference could be that my teachers were teachers first, anthros second
(chronologically speaking). They certainly seemed to reflect this in their
teaching (ideologically speaking). I forgot to mention my math teacher who also
taught at the local junior college. I don't know if they all attended RSC or not,
but I am sure they sympathized to one degree or another.
) I'm really curious about what you have to say, here--what do you think
) motivated these people to enter WE culture in the first place?
Altruism and desire for an appealing alternative to the industrial revolutions
answer to ediucation.
) Were they
) people you'd want as role models for your own children (hypothetical or
) no)? This is what would concern me most about sending a child to (most)
) public schools--I remember very painfully well what it was like to be
) smarter than the teacher, and to have teachers whose goals and worldviews
) were apallingly small. I wouldn't want my child to spend 8 hrs a day with
) them--sorry if that sounds elitist .
I wouldn't call them narrow especially since they are alternative pedagogues,
which is somewhat of an oxymoron.
) . .I realize that not *all* public
) school teachers are like that, but certainly many of the ones I encountered
) were. That's what I'd seek to avoid. So, why do you think these people
) chose Waldorf schools over any of the other private schools they could have
) chosen to teach in? Did you detect a certain common rigidity in these people?
That is an interesting question. What would their options be? Since our school
was so small, we competed against other private schools in the area, all but one
of which were parochial. The exception was the country day school. I was in
Montasori for pre-school, a school I think has progressive ideals (although I am
largely ignorant of the theory), but I thought it did not address anything but
early child development. They let me play with fire when I was like five ; ).They
were my teachers so I don't think that mine was an objective perspective. How
many have memories of benevolent headmasters?
Many of the students perceive a cult of Waldorf themselves. A complaint of HS
kids was how much of your personal life the teachers (your main lesson teacher in
LS and your sponsors in HS) cared about. Their job did not end a 3pm. This is
typical cult behavior, but it is also typical behavior of concerned teachers. It
is also the luxury of small class sizes that it unheard of in public education.
There are no testing grounds in public education to see if the (apparent cult
like) behavior of various waldorf schools is due to the underlying ideology, or
human behavior in general. I think that public schools with 20-25 kids in a class
and classes of no more than 50 (larger than any WE HS in the US) would be of a
very different character.
An example of the close knitted Waldorf community (cult) was attempts (by members
of the parents) to set a class curfew. My parents and a few others said
absolutely no. I've never had a curfew in my life.
I was a student of my LS teacher for 2 or more hours everyday, for 8 years. My HS
sponsors not nearly as much, but they were responsible for 4 years.
)
)
) So I guess, all philosophical hair-splitting re: Steiner aside, I'd ask,
) "Was your overall experience valuable, and would you send your child to a
) Waldorf school?
Provided I live near a school big enough to offer adequate opportunity, yes,
definately.Especially with my trained WE eye, I think that I could maximize the
benefit to my children and already plan to be very active in the education of my
children. There is nothing more fundamentally important than education (and
carbon).
There are times I wonder how I would have turned out in a big public school like
Davis, CA. Would I have taken all AP classes and honors in HS? What would have
happened if I'd learned computer programming in junior high? I don't know.
I have friends I have know for 18 years who share a very unique bond. They are
all fantastic human beings and among the most complete people I know. They range
from RSC students, to commercial airline pilots to PhD candidates in Mathematics.
Is this a product of WE or a reflection of the family environment that sent them
there? I don't know.
I can sing, act, speak a foreign language, knit, perl, sew, paint, draw, play the
saxophone, read music. I have experienced greek, latin, the violin, flute,
pottery, dance. I used to have excellent handwriting (before I started typing
everything), and a top memory (not allowed to take notes in LS). I read more than
anyone I know (Waldorf actively discourages TV in the home). Most importantly (to
me), was my extended stay in childhood (myths and stories till 3rd grade ain't all
bad).
) What were your least favorite, and most favorite things
) about the situation and especially, the people you encountered?"
Least favorite is Eurythmy and the 30 miles I had to travel each way, each day to
get to school with the school librarian and about 5-8 other students (a quick
vision of personal hell). Gardening class, growing up on a (organic) farm made it
seem especially pointless. Not enough girls to choose from (and after 10 years,
many were more like sisters).I've already outlined some of my favorites.
)
)
) Feel free to ignore the question, and sorry if you've "been there, answered
) that" too many times on the list already . .. Thanks for any input,
) Lark
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n704.6 ---------------
From: angelica hesse (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: Re: Defensiveness, Elitism, etc
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 00:05:38 -0500 (EST)
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In-Reply-To: (199804011754.JAA13079 lists1.best.com) from "Ezra Beeman" at Apr 1, 98 09:53:56 am
) "Ever Since Darwin." Another example of (probably good) Me is found in economic
) theory, where the invisible hand of Me allocates resources efficiently in a given
) Market. There is obviously a lot of room for contention here, as efficient does not
) equal good or just in many minds, so please don't misconstrue my comments as
) (purported) fact, merely observation.
This point is well stated. Yes, I would have to agree that "me" has had
it's purposes in the world. I won't argue that it's entirely bad. I think
what concerns me is a growing trend, especially in the US for the "me" to
become more important than anything else. I fear that is a dangerous
tendency.
Angelica G. Hesse
hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n704.7 ---------------
From: angelica hesse (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: Re: Defensiveness, Elitism, etc
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 00:44:04 -0500 (EST)
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In-Reply-To: (199804020150.RAA29314 lists1.best.com) from "Michael Kopp" at Apr 2, 98 01:50:12 pm
) KOPP says:
[about anthroposophists]
) They mouth plattitudes, they talk about open-mindedness, they go on
) ad-nauseam about their and their guru's spiritual insights (none of which
) can be shown evidentially to anyone else, but have to be believed like
) fairy tales).
If this is truly what is happening, it is very unfortunate. Steiner himself
would have been truly dissapointed, if not seriously worried by such an
idea. He stated again and again that the ideas he spoke and wrote about
should not be taken on blind faith, that people SHOULD test the ideas for
themselves, and only accept them if they found that to be true and logical.
ANything other than that would be against the spirit (attitude) out of which
he worked. I have no doubt taht there are probably people who treat the
material in just this dangerous way. However, I would hope that not
everyone does so.
) But they begin by dismissing humanism and rationalism as a means of
) understanding the world, and they end all discussion by exhorting those who
) are skeptical of spiritualism to "do the work themselves" and they will
) come to the same enlightenment. (It's mainly rationalism as a process
) rather than humanism as a philosophy which is the general motivator of most
) critical thinkers here.)
Speaking for myself, I admit I have not studies humanism very much, am only
vaguely familiar with it's concepts (other than what I read here). However,
again speaking for myself, I have not found that such a perspective of the
world fully answers my questions about life, and it's meaning, etc. I would
also have to say that I have found a similar situation in most religious
(especially modern christian) belief systems. I have found anthroposophy to
provide better, more in depth answers to many of these questions. Perhaps
in arguing (which is dangerously easy to do), I have been somewhat
dismissive at times. I hope, however, that I do not treat the world and
its people and ideas with such contempt or dissinterest as was implied in
the text quoted here.
) We've been treated to a spectacle of more of this spiritualist twaddle
) (it's cyclical, depending on the SWA newbies who arrive on this list
) without reading the archives to see that we've all been there, done that
) already) for the last couple of weeks. I've stayed quiet (send thanks via
) private email) but I do want to remind old-timers of, and alert newcomers
) to, some list realities.
No, I for one have not read the archives (partially due to lack of time) but
primarily beause having conversations and discussions with people is more
interesting to me than reading arguments (I get enough of the latter in
school and in lectures).
) This list is, for me, not about discussing the fine points of epistemology
) or spiritualism versus rationality. It is not about a meeting of the minds
) between SWA apologists, believers and defenders of the faith and doubters,
) skeptics or rejectors. I am a rejector. I do not want anything to do with
) SWA in any way.
Admittedly, we have gotten rather off topic from the list, but somewhere
along the line it seemed important to address the issues of whether
differing (including spiritual) perspectives had a valid position in society
and thus in education. And for teh record, you are being as dismissive here
as you accused me of being a moment ago.
) This list is about the hidden spiritualist influence in SWA education, and
) the duplicity of the SWA movement in not admitting its spiritualist agenda
) to parents before their children are sucked in.
My experience has been that spiritualism is not an AGENDA of waldorf
education. It is a previously existing world view out of which the waldorf
curriculum was formed. There would be no waldorf methodology without it,
because waldorf methods are based on a view of the child as a spiritual
being. WIthout that idea, Waldorf has no foundation on which to stand. But
waldorf schools are not trying to 'convert' children or anythign like that.
I know many waldorf students, alumnae, etc. Who really know absolutely
nothing about steiner's spriritual philosophy. I'm on of those who does
becuase my parents were active in it (outside of school) adn because I have
started to read some steiner since graduating from waldorf.
) We and our children were duped and sucked in, despite extra search and
) study before we signed on. I believe we were knowingly duped by SWA people
) whose agenda was their own, not the state's or ours. SWA is guilty of false
) advertising, both here and, apparently, in most places.
When you talk about false advertising, what exactly do you mean? What was
presented, and how did it conflict with what you found?
) This list is about exposing and criticising the faults in SWA education. It
) is not about helping make SWA education better (this list is replete with
) horror stories of how SWA is monolithically unchanging and unchangeable).
What sort of an agenda is that, anyway? It seems to serve little or no
purpose. Is the assumption one in which waldorf is unquestionably bad, in
which you simply seek to show it as such? If not, then critic should be
aimed more in the direction of addressing problems and hopefully improving
them.
) It is about making it more honest and accountable where parents decide to
) make it so in PRIVATE SWA schools, and where parents and the law demand it
) in PUBLIC or publicly-funded SWA schools.
)
) This list is also about the quality or lack thereof of the SWA _education_
) in terms of knowledge and ability to think critically, not to become
) wonderful people and warm human beings.
)
) I and most, if not all, SWA critics, agree that, for the most part, SWA
) education produces nice people -- but that's not enough. I think most
) children survive SWA education because they are, mostly, from upper
) socio-economic and intelligence levels in society -- not because they are
) well-eduated.
This is obviously an issue of what was consider to be the role of education
in society. Is it simply intended to create people who can think and
function coldly and accurately? Or is it better seen as an institution
intending to create intelligent, compassionate, well-functioning,
responsible citizens of society? I would certainly hope the latter. This,
as I see it, is what waldorf is attempting to address. I would also like to
note that I have seen a number of children who were NOT surviving well, or
thriving, in the public schools systems come to waldorf and do very well.
) (Our Steiner school has failed to meet state standards for teaching of the
) state curriculum for all of the five years that it has been publicly funded
) and required to teach the state curriculum alongside the "special
) character" curriculum -- the SWA spiritualist agenda. Yet the toothless
) state education review office has done little to ensure the school
) complies. And the school does not anywhere report on the review to parents,
) or make the review available to prospective parents, or even mention it.)
I find this surprising. I know that my school meets NY state requirements,
as we all receive diplomas issued jointly by the school and the state. THey
are considered perfectly valid. But maybe this isn't the case everywhere?
In Europe, where educational standards are more rigourous I know that a 13th
year is added, in order to make room for both the waldorf curriculum and the
state prerequisites for higher education.
) Recent thinking, comments and writing by SWA adherents and graduates on
) this list leads me to the reinforcement of my belief that SWA produces
) wooly thinkers who are so "open-minded" that they believe anything may be
) possible and do not know how to make judgements about reality. Nor can they
) actually explain, in coherent, plain, expository English, what they
) actually mean or believe. And when their maunderings are challenged or
) questioned, they become defensive and repeat the "open-minded" mantra.
SInce this post was in response to an earlier message of mine, I'll respond
in part to this. I have to admit that I'm not really in a position to
explain anthroposophy as my study of is remains very limited at this point.
But beyond that, I don't really intend to explain. That's not why I'm here.
I'd like to discuss rather than prove. As for wooly thinking, I believe
you're getting a wee bit condescending here. nothin posted here (at least
by me) is a researched thesis or anything like that. It's a dialogue
between people, much like a conversation. It just happens to be typed. I
treat it as such, and with some of the spontaneity that accompanies
speaking. Including typographical stuttering and mispronunciations!!!!
) I have also seen this wooly thinking firsthand with my own and other
) children in our school. Since my children have returned to the secular
) education system, they have, while at once having greater
) self-possessedness and self-confidence about their own abilities,
) demonstrated deficiencies in critical thought and reasoning, especially in
) the use of language, which require remedial work.
This is ridiculous. Waldorf ed is based so much on thinking, and writing.
Nothing is memorized and spat back on tests. I can't speak for you
children, but I certainly know that I faired very well in college english
and philosophy courses. My second semester english teacher speaks very
positively about my writing and thinking adn reasoning abilities. By
contrast, I was surprised by some of the basic deficiencies I saw in some of
the other students in my classes -- inability to match subject and verb, for
example.
) I am not averse to relations with spiritualists -- except that I think most
) of them are on another planet and it's difficult to have a conversation
) where we're not talking past each other.
Na, we're on the same planet. We jsut see it as including more than the
physical characteristics you see!
) Hesse's typical dismissiveness of humanism (and reason) is an indicator of
) this.
Since when am I dismissing reason???
Angelica G. Hesse
hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n704.8 ---------------
From: angelica hesse (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: Computers in waldorf
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:36:56 -0500 (EST)
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In-Reply-To: (199804030120.RAA16101 lists1.best.com) from "Ezra Beeman" at Apr 2, 98 05:20:43 pm
) Not surprising since WE doesn't foster computer interfacing. It was an issue to
) hand in typed essays in High School. I work in IT with UNIX, and Windows NT OS,
) so I don't think it was crippling. Again, it is a symptom of 'educating the whole
) child.' Or whatever the credo is. There is very little, if any, specialization in
) WE (a very liberal tradition).
My experience with computers, etc in high school as similar. We didn't' use
them. I year after I left, the school did purchase one PC for the use of
students, and especially for putting together the yearbook, newspaper, etc.
We did have a typing class for a while, and I learned to type at home, using
my father's computer. In addition, after ninth grade I was exposed to a Mac
while on a job, and learned some basics about that. Learning to type was
the most crucial part, and has stood me well since. I did some of my 'main
lesson books' on a typewriter my last few years (with illustrations of
course!!!!).
What's interesting despite all of this, and all of the illustration and
writing by hand that I've done is that I'm going into a computer dominated
field: graphic design. And I love it. I was completely competent on a Mac
after one semester using my roommates. Then I purchased my own PC. Since
then, I've considered myself very knowledgeable about computer use, and
continue to learn very quickly. Not using computer until late in high-school
or college doesn't seem to be crippling. I guess at that age it's still
easy enough to learn things.
My $.02 worth.
Angelica G. Hesse
hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n704.9 ---------------
From: angelica hesse (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: Lark's Questions
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:41:14 -0500 (EST)
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In-Reply-To: (199804021846.KAA18536 lists1.best.com) from "Lark Jarvis" at Apr 2, 98 10:33:13 am
Lark,
I'd like to answer some of your questions about Waldorf, based on my
experiences. Rather than hold up the list with this, however, I'd like to
send my comments directly to you... Could you send me your e-mail address?
Thanks
Angelica G. Hesse
hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n704.10 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Defensiveness, Elitism, etc
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 10:14:49 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199804030546.VAA02989 lists1.best.com)
) I find this surprising. I know that my school meets NY state requirements,
) as we all receive diplomas issued jointly by the school and the state. THey
) are considered perfectly valid. But maybe this isn't the case everywhere?
) In Europe, where educational standards are more rigourous I know that a 13th
) year is added, in order to make room for both the waldorf curriculum and the
) state prerequisites for higher education.
Please note that everyone in Europe has 13 years (at least in Germany, I think
the UK too).In California, the state did not issue me a second diploma, I don't
think that is customary. Top ranked West Coast colleges like Pomona, Occidental
and Reed recruit on our campus.
) This is ridiculous. Waldorf ed is based so much on thinking, and writing.
) Nothing is memorized and spat back on tests. I can't speak for you
) children, but I certainly know that I faired very well in college english
) and philosophy courses. My second semester english teacher speaks very
) positively about my writing and thinking adn reasoning abilities. By
) contrast, I was surprised by some of the basic deficiencies I saw in some of
) the other students in my classes -- inability to match subject and verb, for
) example.
My HS english teacher blows away any subsequent college teachers in terms of form
and structure criticism. I would turn in essays that came back with more red
than black, Strunk and White like you wouldn't believe. As for reasoning, I
majored in Philosphy (honors) and Economics, focusing on logic and quantitative
analysis, respectively.Ezra
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n704 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n705 --------------
001 - Herman de Tollenaere (her - Atlantis (was: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n702)
002 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: Fw: K-16: 'Standards' To Blame For Rise Of 'Fuzzy Math' (f
003 - Michael Kopp (mkopp actri - Re: Defensiveness, Elitism, etc
004 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Defensiveness, Elitism, etc
005 - angelica hesse (hesse96 m - English and Reasoning (was defensiveness, etc.)
006 - Daniel Sabsay (danielsabs - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
007 - angelica hesse (hesse96 m - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
008 - mckay oro.net (David B Mc - Re: Defensiveness, Elitism, etc
009 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
010 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n705.1 ---------------
From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Atlantis (was: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n702)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 00:14:46 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
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At 10:33 AM 2/4/98 -0800, Lark Jarvis wrote:
) Is there evidence (legitimate archaelogical, historical, ect.) that
)suggests Lemuria and Atlantis existed anywhere outside Steiner's
)imagination?
There certainly is historical evidence (in Madame Blavatsky's writings) that
Atlantis and Lemutia existed in the imagination of Madame Helena Blavatsky
(1831-1891), co-founder of the Theosophical Society, and major inspiration
to Steiner.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n705.2 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: Fw: K-16: 'Standards' To Blame For Rise Of 'Fuzzy Math' (fwd)
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 14:19:34 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (02d501bd5f26$eec49ae0$836d45ab good_homePC.cisco.com)
My youngest son, Max, is lucky enough to attend a school whose strength is math
and reading. Good old Saxon texts are used in combination with Mathland. Max's
math foundation is solid enough that he was selected as a GATE participant. In 4th
grade, he is learning Algebra AND loving it.
Deby
) 'Standards' To Blame For Rise Of 'Fuzzy Math'
)
) Frank B. Allen, former president of NCTM
) (National Council of Teachers of Mathematics = NCTM)
)
) Date: 4/3/98
)
) The annual convention of the National Council of Teachers of
) Mathematics began Thursday in Washington. The meeting should
) focus the nation's attention on the crisis in school mathematics - and
) the NCTM's role in perpetuating it.
)
) That a crisis exists cannot be denied. Results in February of the Third
) International Mathematics and Science Study were dismal. Of 21
) countries, U.S. high school seniors beat only Cyprus and South Africa.
)
) Why such failure? Part of the reason stems from the policies endorsed
) by the NCTM in its ''Standards'' -policies that have dominated
) classrooms since these high schoolers were in grade school.
)
) A first draft of the NCTM ''Standards'' appeared in '87, but the theories
) behind it were taught in teachers' colleges long before that. Anyone
) who cares about America's disgraceful math performance should ask
) NCTM's leaders to explain themselves and their policies.
)
) ''Our policies have not had time to operate'' and ''We have been
) misinterpreted'' are not acceptable answers.
)
) It's time for NCTM to admit that it has urged the use of highly
) controversial methods of teaching before they have been tested in
) well-controlled and replicated research studies.
)
) America's schools are laboratories for experimenting with these untried
) methods. Consider a few examples:
)
) Calculators replace old-fashioned memorization. Young people have
) highly retentive memories indispensable for learning the fundamentals
) of math before the sixth grade. Mastery of these fundamentals is the
) critical foundation on which understanding of mathematical concepts is
) built. No surprise that the highest-scoring countries on the TIMSS tests
) do not allow such early use of calculators.
)
) The doctrine of ''constructivism'' is becoming pervasive. The idea is that
) students understand and remember only what they ''construct,'' or
) discover for themselves. The result? Teachers - or books for that
) matter - no longer dispense information. Instead, students in
) ''cooperative learning'' groups reconstruct the great ideas of the past,
) starting at ground zero and aided only by their equally uninformed
) peers. Teachers are demoted to the role of ''facilitator,'' wandering from
) group to group.
)
) The new ''facilitators'' now use fuzzy ''authentic'' assessment systems.
) These minimize the importance of correct answers and often include
) deliberately ambiguous questions. They use subjective, inaccurate and
) unreliable grading techniques. Worse yet are group tests, which mask
) individual performance, make individually prescribed remedial work
) impossible and destroy the validity of course grades.
)
) Proofs and logic are out, especially in geometry. While speaking of
) ''higher-order thinking'' and ''mathematical reasoning,'' the NCTM has
) watched in silence as original proof and construction problems have
) virtually disappeared from the glossy 800-page ''coffee table'' books
) that now pass for geometry texts. A vast gulf exists between what NCTM
) says and the reality of NCTM-based programs.
)
) Social engineering and self-esteem are in. Under the guise of opening
) the door to higher-level math for all students, we now have algebra and
) geometry students who have difficulty with computation and are
) generally poorly prepared. This sends students the wrong message
) and hampers instruction. Recall that Jaime Escalante, of ''Stand and
) Deliver'' fame, showed us how students can earn their self-esteem and
) triumph when properly taught and motivated.
)
) Lacking support in either research or experience, NCTM-based
) programs are worse than just fads - they're mistakes that have been
) systematized. They impair the quality and content of the mathematics
) our students are expected to learn, and our national success requires
) that they be replaced.
)
) California may have suffered the most under these fads. But the state
) is moving in the right direction. The state recently adopted standards
) that clearly describe the mathematics that students are expected to
) learn in each grade in elementary school and in each subject in high
) school. The NCTM ''Standards'' do not do this. California's new
) standards beat those of all other states and Japan, in an independent
) review sponsored by the Fordham Foundation.
)
) Concerned parents around the country should follow California's lead.
) They can demand improvements and enlist the aid of local
) mathematicians. It's time to replace ''fuzzy math'' programs with real
) programs of math instruction that will let our students compete
) successfully with their peers in other industrialized countries.
)
) Frank B. Allen is former president of NCTM and a national adviser for
) Mathematically Correct
) (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mathman/report.htm).
)
) (C) Copyright 1998 Investors Business Daily, Inc.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n705.3 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: Re: Defensiveness, Elitism, etc
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 10:51:04 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199804030546.VAA02989 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199804031816.KAA16206 lists1.best.com)
Ezra Beeman adds his approval of Waldorf English teaching to Angelica
Hesse's reply to Michael Kopp's original criticism of it.
Kopp says:
I did not say all Waldorf English teaching everywhere was bad.
I said that some Waldorf graduates thinking and writing on this list did
not inspire confidence in Waldorf teaching, and that other criticisms of
Waldorf educational success were known to this list.
I said that my own children's experience, and that of their fellow
students, in our Steiner school here in New Zealand were a disaster.
I am perfectly willing to believe that somewhere there is a Waldorf/
Steiner/ Anthroposophical school which has the rigour in English and
thinking that Hesse and Beeman suggest, and that Strunk and White are
victorious.
And I will also add that this country is becoming a nation of illiterates
because of the state education system's change to the "whole language"
approach to teaching of reading, writing and the use of language. I
expected better of the Steiner school, which had a recommended English
teacher, whose own writing and speaking I found exceptional.
Alas, not so in practice. My children's work was rarely corrected,
certainly not sub-edited in the Strunk and White tradition (which is how I
learned and how I have had to teach my children in the absence of any other
teaching).
Beeman quoting Hesse's reply to Kopp:
)) I find this surprising. I know that my school meets NY state requirements,
)) as we all receive diplomas issued jointly by the school and the state. THey
)) are considered perfectly valid. But maybe this isn't the case everywhere?
)) In Europe, where educational standards are more rigourous I know that a 13th
)) year is added, in order to make room for both the waldorf curriculum and the
)) state prerequisites for higher education.
)
Beeman:
)Please note that everyone in Europe has 13 years (at least in Germany, I think
)the UK too).In California, the state did not issue me a second diploma, I
)don't
)think that is customary. Top ranked West Coast colleges like Pomona,
)Occidental
)and Reed recruit on our campus.
)
Beeman quoting Hesse's reply to Kopp:
)) This is ridiculous. Waldorf ed is based so much on thinking, and writing.
)) Nothing is memorized and spat back on tests. I can't speak for you
)) children, but I certainly know that I faired very well in college english
)) and philosophy courses. My second semester english teacher speaks very
)) positively about my writing and thinking adn reasoning abilities. By
)) contrast, I was surprised by some of the basic deficiencies I saw in some of
)) the other students in my classes -- inability to match subject and verb, for
)) example.
)
Beeman:
)My HS english teacher blows away any subsequent college teachers in terms
)of form
)and structure criticism. I would turn in essays that came back with more red
)than black, Strunk and White like you wouldn't believe. As for reasoning, I
)majored in Philosphy (honors) and Economics, focusing on logic and
)quantitative
)analysis, respectively.Ezra
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n705.4 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Defensiveness, Elitism, etc
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 15:23:02 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199804030546.VAA02989 lists1.best.com) (199804032250.OAA00703 lists1.best.com)
) And I will also add that this country is becoming a nation of illiterates
) because of the state education system's change to the "whole language"
) approach to teaching of reading, writing and the use of language. I
) expected better of the Steiner school, which had a recommended English
) teacher, whose own writing and speaking I found exceptional.
There is a raging debate in this country over which method should be used for
language education in young children. I guess there is the conventional method and
then there is the 'progressive' method. The progressive method uses phonics and
used to be sold on late night tv as the 'hooked on phonics' learning system. I
would be curious to hear anyone's experience of being 'hooked on phonics.'
Your whole language approach in NZ sounds strangely like the whole math approach I
just read about in a recent post.
The situation in this country isn't much different, even among high achievers.
Many top ranked colleges offer (compulsory for some freshman) remedial english
classes to prepare incomming students for the 'rigor' of college level exposition.
In public schools especially, the incentive for teachers to make kids write is
perverse. The more the kids write, the more the parents complain and the more the
teacher has to work to make corrections. Unless your in management consulting,
there is no substitute for hard work.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n705.5 ---------------
From: angelica hesse (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: English and Reasoning (was defensiveness, etc.)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 18:32:59 -0500 (EST)
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In-Reply-To: (199804032250.OAA00703 lists1.best.com) from "Michael Kopp" at Apr 4, 98 10:51:04 am
) Kopp says:
) I did not say all Waldorf English teaching everywhere was bad.
) I said that some Waldorf graduates thinking and writing on this list did
) not inspire confidence in Waldorf teaching, and that other criticisms of
) Waldorf educational success were known to this list.
That's fair enough. I'm sure not every waldorf school is as successful as
others. As for the skills of graduates, there is always variation in
individual's abilities, no matter what school system they have attended. I
only hope you were referring to the current members of this list with that
comment.
) I said that my own children's experience, and that of their fellow
) students, in our Steiner school here in New Zealand were a disaster.
That is truly unfortunate. For your sake, your childrens, and the school's
too.
) I am perfectly willing to believe that somewhere there is a Waldorf/
) Steiner/ Anthroposophical school which has the rigour in English and
) thinking that Hesse and Beeman suggest, and that Strunk and White are
) victorious.
)
) And I will also add that this country is becoming a nation of illiterates
) because of the state education system's change to the "whole language"
) approach to teaching of reading, writing and the use of language. I
) expected better of the Steiner school, which had a recommended English
) teacher, whose own writing and speaking I found exceptional.
)
) Alas, not so in practice. My children's work was rarely corrected,
) certainly not sub-edited in the Strunk and White tradition (which is how I
) learned and how I have had to teach my children in the absence of any other
) teaching).
How old were the children at the time, and was the english teacher in
question actually teaching your children? ANd forgive my ignorance, but who
are Strunk and White?
Angelica G. Hesse
hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu
)
) Beeman quoting Hesse's reply to Kopp:
) )) I find this surprising. I know that my school meets NY state requirements,
) )) as we all receive diplomas issued jointly by the school and the state. THey
) )) are considered perfectly valid. But maybe this isn't the case everywhere?
) )) In Europe, where educational standards are more rigourous I know that a 13th
) )) year is added, in order to make room for both the waldorf curriculum and the
) )) state prerequisites for higher education.
) )
)
) Beeman:
) )Please note that everyone in Europe has 13 years (at least in Germany, I think
) )the UK too).In California, the state did not issue me a second diploma, I
) )don't
) )think that is customary. Top ranked West Coast colleges like Pomona,
) )Occidental
) )and Reed recruit on our campus.
) )
)
) Beeman quoting Hesse's reply to Kopp:
) )) This is ridiculous. Waldorf ed is based so much on thinking, and writing.
) )) Nothing is memorized and spat back on tests. I can't speak for you
) )) children, but I certainly know that I faired very well in college english
) )) and philosophy courses. My second semester english teacher speaks very
) )) positively about my writing and thinking adn reasoning abilities. By
) )) contrast, I was surprised by some of the basic deficiencies I saw in some of
) )) the other students in my classes -- inability to match subject and verb, for
) )) example.
) )
)
) Beeman:
) )My HS english teacher blows away any subsequent college teachers in terms
) )of form
) )and structure criticism. I would turn in essays that came back with more red
) )than black, Strunk and White like you wouldn't believe. As for reasoning, I
) )majored in Philosphy (honors) and Economics, focusing on logic and
) )quantitative
) )analysis, respectively.Ezra
)
)
)
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n705.6 ---------------
From: Daniel Sabsay (danielsabsay earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 98 20:01:39 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
angelica hesse (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu) wrote )
)Daniel wrote:
)) Babies come from sex, water is ACTUALLY composed of 2 parts hydrogen & 1
)) part oxygen, and the earth is no longer flat, either. These scientific
)) facts are not a matter of bias.
)
)Hmhm, and who's contesting this? These are some of the oldest, and most
)substantiated scientific facts. I doubt anyone is arguing about this. I'm
)certainly not. What I was referring to in terms of bias has more to do with
)recent research, things that are not as yet completely and irrevocably
)proven (if such a thing is even possible). As long as there is controversy
)around a 'fact' it needs to be considered, from as many angles as possible.
Actually, there is NO controversy about the heart being a pump. Only the
followers of St. Rudy are pursuing this nonsense to make Rudy inerrant.
When we talk about "proven", we do not mean accepted by 100% of the
world's population, including religious movements like anthroposophy.
Proven, in this context means that all the relevant experts accept the
verdict; the opinion of bible scholars is not relevant. In a sporting
contest, the best team is the team that wins in a contest with the other
major contenders, not the team or the commentator who writes the most
persuasive book.
So, Angelica, have you ever asked your physician father, or your biology
professor what they think of your considered opinion that "the heart is
not a pump"?
-- Daniel Sabsay, president
East Bay Skeptics Society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n705.7 ---------------
From: angelica hesse (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 23:59:48 -0500 (EST)
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In-Reply-To: (199804040402.UAA14671 lists1.best.com) from "Daniel Sabsay" at Apr 3, 98 08:01:39 pm
) Actually, there is NO controversy about the heart being a pump. Only the
) followers of St. Rudy are pursuing this nonsense to make Rudy inerrant.
) When we talk about "proven", we do not mean accepted by 100% of the
) world's population, including religious movements like anthroposophy.
There is controvery, even if you personal don't respect the people who are
conducting the studies.
) Proven, in this context means that all the relevant experts accept the
) verdict; the opinion of bible scholars is not relevant. In a sporting
) contest, the best team is the team that wins in a contest with the other
) major contenders, not the team or the commentator who writes the most
) persuasive book.
This has nothign to do with bible scholars. This is a scientific issue, not
a biblical one.
) So, Angelica, have you ever asked your physician father, or your biology
) professor what they think of your considered opinion that "the heart is
) not a pump"?
Actually, I wasn't quite sure how to approach my bio professor on this,
though I very mcuh wanted to. it seemed a bit odd in a huge lecture class
to bring up an issue like this. Nobody in class would have cared anyway.
As for my father, he's perfectly familiar with the ideas I'm talking about
and as far as I know supports them. He was actually considering joining
this list, and if he does, I'll make sure he addresses the issue.
Angelica G Hesse
hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n705.8 ---------------
From: mckay oro.net (David B McKay)
Subject: Re: Defensiveness, Elitism, etc
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 21:41:57 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Ezra wrote this in reference to Michael Kopp:
)I think it was Oscar Wilde who once said that a cynic is someone who knows
)the cost
)of everything and the value of nothing. One of my favorites. I don't
)know whom to
)quote on the difference between a cynic and a skeptic....
)
Ezra, come on, think for yourself for once, get out a Dictionary and
look it up. Why do you need someone "to quote on the difference between a
cynic and a skeptic...."?
David
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n705.9 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 23:27:04 -0800
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Angelica writes,
) As for my father, he's perfectly familiar with the ideas I'm talking about
) and as far as I know supports them. He was actually considering joining
) this list, and if he does, I'll make sure he addresses the issue.
Is your father an Anthroposophical physician? (I seem to recall that you were raised
by Anthroposphical parents..) _Please_ ask him to join our list. I have a few
questions for him. My son is left handed and suffers from Neurocardiogenic Syncope
or Long QT Syndrom. I'd love to have an Anthroposophical opinion before May 14,
when we're flying to Utah for an evaluation.
Deby
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n705.10 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 12:17:25 -0800
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Could someone, briefly, what Steiner's views on the heart have to do with WE?
Before joining this list I never, ever, heard such nonsensical debat on the
subject. I learned all about the cardiovascular system and there were no
suprises when I hit collegiate biology, except perhaps the innanaties of my
fellow scientists. In fact, many people's idea of the scientific method was not
applicable outside lab, where it was explicitly formulated by the Prof.
My knowledge of alchemy is limited, but I seem to remember one fundamental aspect
of it was the use of symbols. In hard core alchemy, as practiced by
Rosecrucians, Freemasons and other "secret" societies, to take the writing
literally is to completely miss the point. They wrote in a kind of code to throw
off curious wannabes. Goethe and Steiner were both deeply interested in this
esoterica (as were Alchemedes, Pythagoras, Hermes and Spinoza to name a few
prominant people). If one can see the scholarly influence, than would should at
least suspect the literary.
Daniel Sabsay wrote:
) angelica hesse (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu) wrote )
)
) )Daniel wrote:
) )) Babies come from sex, water is ACTUALLY composed of 2 parts hydrogen & 1
) )) part oxygen, and the earth is no longer flat, either. These scientific
) )) facts are not a matter of bias.
) )
) )Hmhm, and who's contesting this? These are some of the oldest, and most
) )substantiated scientific facts. I doubt anyone is arguing about this. I'm
) )certainly not. What I was referring to in terms of bias has more to do with
) )recent research, things that are not as yet completely and irrevocably
) )proven (if such a thing is even possible). As long as there is controversy
) )around a 'fact' it needs to be considered, from as many angles as possible.
)
) Actually, there is NO controversy about the heart being a pump. Only the
) followers of St. Rudy are pursuing this nonsense to make Rudy inerrant.
) When we talk about "proven", we do not mean accepted by 100% of the
) world's population, including religious movements like anthroposophy.
)
) Proven, in this context means that all the relevant experts accept the
) verdict; the opinion of bible scholars is not relevant. In a sporting
) contest, the best team is the team that wins in a contest with the other
) major contenders, not the team or the commentator who writes the most
) persuasive book.
Nice analogy.
)
)
) So, Angelica, have you ever asked your physician father, or your biology
) professor what they think of your considered opinion that "the heart is
) not a pump"?
)
) -- Daniel Sabsay, president
) East Bay Skeptics Society
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n705 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n706 --------------
001 - Daniel Sabsay (danielsabs - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
002 - Angelica (hesse96 matrix. - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
003 - mckay oro.net (David B Mc - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
004 - Daniel Sabsay (danielsabs - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
005 - Angelica (hesse96 matrix. - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
006 - Angelica (hesse96 matrix. - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
007 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - Bay Area: Heart lecture May 26
008 - "Joel A. Wendt" (hermit m - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
009 - Angelica (hesse96 matrix. - attn: all HUMAN beings
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n706.1 ---------------
From: Daniel Sabsay (danielsabsay earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 98 12:32:58 -0800
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Angelica Hesse, (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu) wrote )
)I dont' buy the argument that the heart is a pump!!! I've heard it this year
)in class, and it just doesnt' hold water for me, because I've read a
)published medical research article proving just the opposite!
Daniel wrote ))
)) Actually, there is NO controversy about the heart being a pump. Only the
)) followers of St. Rudy are pursuing this nonsense to make Rudy inerrant.
)) When we talk about "proven", we do not mean accepted by 100% of the
)) world's population, including religious movements like anthroposophy.
Angelica adamently rejoined )
)There is controvery, even if you personal don't respect the people who are
)conducting the studies.
Prove it. Please cite something besides the scientifically worthless
article by Ralph Marinelli of Rudolph Steiner Research Center (titled
modestly: "The Heart Is Not A Pump: A Refutation of The Pressure
Propulsion Premise of Heart Function"). I venture to guess that this
little essay was strategically provided by your parochial Steiner/Waldorf
education.
)[...] Actually, I was referring to evidence presented, and the breadth of
)considerations of what the evidence means. I'm not sure if that article
)dealt with it or not, but I remember one piece of information in
)particular which I always found interesting. (forgive the digression
)here). It was the fact that blood circulates and pulses in an embryo
)before a heart is even formed. THe heart actually seems to form from
)this, thus indicating that the blood is not completely static and that
)the heart is not entirely responsible for "forcing" it through our blood
)vessels. This is a fact that I could not ignore, not matter what else
)was presented to me.
If you had a broader education in biology, you might realize that it is
commonplace for the human embryo to migrate from one system to another
during development. Besides the switch-over to heart pumping, the blood
system also switches from one set of hemoglobin genes to another, and the
oxygen system switches from placental blood to lungs.
Furthermore, I am appalled to see how this "fact that you could not
ignore" [embryonic blood propelled by contractile endothelial cells that
initially create the vessel walls, and ultimately become the foundation
for arterial muscle cells forming the heart] has led you to the illogical
conclusion "that the blood is not completely static and that the heart is
not entirely responsible for 'forcing' it through our blood vessels".
-- Daniel Sabsay, president
East Bay Skeptics Society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n706.2 ---------------
From: Angelica (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 17:31:20 -0500
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Daniel Sabsay wrote:
) Prove it. Please cite something besides the scientifically worthless
Oh, just lay off already Daniel. Your arrogance is is becoming really
annoying and really makes any kind of discussion on any subject next to
impossible. Hvae you, by the way, even read the article in question or
personally verified your assumption of the lack of merit of the
scientists who wrote it?
) article by Ralph Marinelli of Rudolph Steiner Research Center (titled
) modestly: "The Heart Is Not A Pump: A Refutation of The Pressure
) Propulsion Premise of Heart Function"). I venture to guess that this
) little essay was strategically provided by your parochial Steiner/Waldorf
) education.
On the contrary. This was never presented to us in school. The subject
of blood flow in the embryo, was only briefly touched on, and the
observation made that blood flows and pulses prior to the existence of a
heart. This can also be observed in flowing water. It happens that
both my parents work in the medical field and personally know one of the
physicians who was working on this study. For that reason, it showed up
in our house one day, and I was interested enough to take a look at it.
) If you had a broader education in biology, you might realize that it is
) commonplace for the human embryo to migrate from one system to another
) during development. Besides the switch-over to heart pumping, the blood
) system also switches from one set of hemoglobin genes to another, and the
) oxygen system switches from placental blood to lungs.
Look, I'm not a scientist, or a physician. I as simply pointing to the
fact that there are currently differing views on this subject. I don't
know the material enough to give a full defense. If someone who is
researchign or working with these ideas shows up on the list, perhaps
they can explain/defend the idea better. Ezra has made a good point
today: this discussion is getting WAY of target for this list, even if
it is an interesting one.
) Furthermore, I am appalled to see how this "fact that you could not
) ignore" [embryonic blood propelled by contractile endothelial cells that
) initially create the vessel walls, and ultimately become the foundation
) for arterial muscle cells forming the heart] has led you to the illogical
) conclusion "that the blood is not completely static and that the heart is
) not entirely responsible for 'forcing' it through our blood vessels".
Not my conclusion, unfortunately. Simply a very loose paraphrase of
some of the ideas I read and/or heard several years ago.
Angelica G. Hesse
hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n706.3 ---------------
From: mckay oro.net (David B McKay)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 16:14:31 -0700
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)Daniel Sabsay wrote:
)
)) Prove it. Please cite something besides the scientifically worthless
)Anelica wrote:
)Oh, just lay off already Daniel. Your arrogance is is becoming really
)annoying and really makes any kind of discussion on any subject next to
)impossible. [snip]
Angelica, you have a bad habit of putting yourself in a corner by raising
issues you seem to have only a surface understanding of and then you ask
Daniel to "just lay off". Is that the best you can do? What kind of
discussion were you expecting? Should the rest of us just accept your
limited knowledge on this subject?
I find nothing arrogant with a healthy discussion or arguement such as
Daniels, but do find your weak cop-out above and below very arrogant.
Angelica:
) Ezra has made a good point
)today: this discussion is getting WAY of target for this list, even if
)it is an interesting one.
This discussion is VERY on target for this list. It is exposing
WE/Anthroposophy mumbo jumbo for what it is!!
David McKay
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n706.4 ---------------
From: Daniel Sabsay (danielsabsay earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 98 16:44:10 -0800
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Angelica Hesse, (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu) wrote )
)I've seen the experiments, and to this day,
)I dont' buy the argument that the heart is a pump!!! I've heard it this year
)in [biology for non majors] class, and it just doesnt' hold water for me,
)because I've read a published medical research article proving just the
)opposite!
and...
)There is controvery, even if you personal don't respect the people who are
)conducting the studies.
Daniel Sabsay wrote ))
)) Prove it. Please cite something besides the scientifically worthless [...]
Angelica responded )
)Oh, just lay off already Daniel. Your arrogance is is becoming really
)annoying and really makes any kind of discussion on any subject next to
)impossible. Hvae you, by the way, even read the article in question or
)personally verified your assumption of the lack of merit of the
)scientists who wrote it?
Yes, I did actually read it, did you? And by the way, I called the
article scientifically worthless, I did not characterize the merit of the
people who wrote it.
This is not just "any subject", Angelica, it is a very telling example of
the cracked science taught by Waldorf schools, and the result (your
understanding of contemporary science).
)[...] This was never presented to us in school. The subject
)of blood flow in the embryo, was only briefly touched on, and the
)observation made that blood flows and pulses prior to the existence of a
)heart. This can also be observed in flowing water. [...]
"in flowing water" ???????????? Another howler.
-- Daniel Sabsay, president
East Bay Skeptics Society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n706.5 ---------------
From: Angelica (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 20:00:43 -0500
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David B McKay wrote:
) Angelica, you have a bad habit of putting yourself in a corner by raising
) issues you seem to have only a surface understanding of and then you ask
) Daniel to "just lay off". Is that the best you can do? What kind of
) discussion were you expecting? Should the rest of us just accept your
) limited knowledge on this subject?
)
) I find nothing arrogant with a healthy discussion or arguement such as
) Daniels, but do find your weak cop-out above and below very arrogant.
I am willing to admit that I have gotten in a little over my head on
this issue. I mentioned the heart theory as a side issue when comparing
my experiences in waldorf vs. college. i'm not a bio student, so yes,
my knowledge is limited. However, from what I -have- experienced, I was
more convinced by the studies pointing to what I have been defending. I
sited a study, which is as much as I can do to back up my idea. Daniel
proceeded to decide for everyone here that the study in question was
"scientifically worthless". I wish there was someone here with the
background to really take my side. I did open a bit of a can of worms,
especially considering I'm arguing against a bunch of scientists. I'm
an artist!
) This discussion is VERY on target for this list. It is exposing
) WE/Anthroposophy mumbo jumbo for what it is!!
I'd rather take the blame and say that I have exposed my knowledge of
this subject as being relatively limited. Keep in mind, I -am- new to
anthroposophy if you dont' count verbal information from my parents.
HOwever, I am here primarily as a proponent of Waldorf education. It
was possitive and vital in my life. I'm here to support that. I
shouldn't have gone off on that other thing, nor perhaps should anyone.
This is an education list, not a biology one.
Sincerely,
Angelica G. Hesse
hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n706.6 ---------------
From: Angelica (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 20:23:32 -0500
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) Yes, I did actually read it, did you? And by the way, I called the
) article scientifically worthless, I did not characterize the merit of the
) people who wrote it.
Elsewhere you did denegrate the authors of the article. I was, perhaps
mistakenly, assuming that's what you meant by scientifically worthless.
i read portions of the article. I'd actually like to get my hands on it
again and read it in full now that I'm a bit older.
) This is not just "any subject", Angelica, it is a very telling example of
) the cracked science taught by Waldorf schools, and the result (your
) understanding of contemporary science)
Once again. This study, and all of it's implications WERE NOT TAUGHT in
waldorf school. The 'normal' theories and explanations were presented,
as far as I remember, along with indications of possible flaws in some
of the mainstream reasoning. I already said I picked the article up at
home. My current frustrations with my bio class mostly have to do with
it's not really giving explanations for WHY things happen (especially
illnesses).
Perhaps I'm not forming the most cohesive arguments. I'm exploring my
own ideas as much as those on this list. But clearly your intrest is
simply to put down and devalue all people with a WE or anthro
background. You're not even remotely interested in teh material, from
what I can see. Most of all howeve, I'm tired of having my intelligence
insulted. If I weren't sucha stubborn person, I would leave this list,
because even just reading it becomes emotionally draining.
Angelica G. Hesse
hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n706.7 ---------------
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Bay Area: Heart lecture May 26
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 02:51:07 -0700
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Dr. Hans-Christoph Kummell, a cardiologist and the head of a European
Anthroposopohical hospital in Europe will give a lecture "The Spiritual
Function of the Human Heart" at 7:30 PM Tuesday, May 26, at the San
Francisco Waldorf School.
Be there or be square!
Angelica, you said,
) Ezra has made a good point
)today: this discussion is getting WAY of target for this list, even if
)it is an interesting one.
Anthroposophical pseudoscience and quack medicine are very important topics
to PLANS and discussion of these topics is a main reason the list was
established. Anthroposophists have decided to fight on this point, rather
than dissolve into "reform Anthroposophy" (saying Steiner's using
metaphors, etc.). I'm glad of it, because IMHO clinging to this nonsense
demonstrates the folly of dedicating ones-self to a fundamentalist belief
system, the opposite of science.
Daniel and I were present when teachers from Yuba River School told the
Twin Ridges school board that the heart was not a pump, and there was
scientific research going on now that proved it. These sincere people have
been grievously mis-educated by schools like Rudolf Steiner College and
their Waldorf mentors, and the process continues today.
In my personal history, the substitution of Steiner cult beliefs for
science in my son's classes at San Francisco Waldorf School, and the
promotion of quack medicine at the school, were two of the three points
that as a responsible parent, I felt obliged to try to correct in "our"
school.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n706.8 ---------------
From: "Joel A. Wendt" (hermit microweb.com)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 11:06:02 -0700
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Angelica,
Take heart dear young one, some of what has been posted to you on this
"heart is a pump" thread is bigotry, pure and simple. It takes a truely
insensitive idiot not to appreciate your age, or have compassion for
your inexperience. Also, those who want to trample on your idealism
with the rotting foot of their gods (the so-called pure reasoned
humanism and immaculate science), should be ignored.
There are kind and thoughtful critics of WE, and also true believers
who wouldn't know an actually true idea if it bit them on the nose.
Remain open, and continue to think for yourself.
warm regards,
joel wendt
"the narrow gate": http://www.microweb.com/hermit
Angelica wrote:
But clearly your intrest is
) simply to put down and devalue all people with a WE or anthro
) background. You're not even remotely interested in teh material, from
) what I can see. Most of all howeve, I'm tired of having my intelligence
) insulted. If I weren't sucha stubborn person, I would leave this list,
) because even just reading it becomes emotionally draining.
)
) Angelica G. Hesse
) hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n706.9 ---------------
From: Angelica (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: attn: all HUMAN beings
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 14:30:17 -0500
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I just want to say a big thank you to all of my supporters out there!
I"ll get back to you all individually as soon as I have time.
Cheers,
Angelica
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n706 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n707 --------------
001 - Angelica (hesse96 matrix. - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
002 - Angelica (hesse96 matrix. - Re: Bay Area: Heart lecture May 26
003 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
004 - Daniel Sabsay (danielsabs - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
005 - Angelica (hesse96 matrix. - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
006 - Robert Flannery (litvas i - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
007 - Michael Kopp (mkopp actri - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
008 - Michael Kopp (mkopp actri - Re: Bay Area: Heart lecture May 26
009 - Robert Flannery (litvas i - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
010 - Michael Kopp (mkopp actri - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n707.1 ---------------
From: Angelica (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 18:51:28 -0500
Thank you very much, Joel!
I feel like I need a serious sabatical from this list. But I'll hang
in, and keep listening, and maybe drop teh odd comment. I guess if I
waited a few days before answering messages, it would slow down the
process a bit, which might make it kinder on my sanity! The point you
make about their 'gods' is a really good one. The attitudes on that
side are truly no less blind than those of some of the 'purest'
anthroposophist... They're methods are what get to me most, not the
beliefs. THe complete lack of respect is simply insulting.
Grrrr!!!
Still smiling as best I can,
Angelica G. Hesse
hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu
Joel A. Wendt wrote:
)
) Angelica,
)
) Take heart dear young one, some of what has been posted to you on this
) "heart is a pump" thread is bigotry, pure and simple. It takes a truely
) insensitive idiot not to appreciate your age, or have compassion for
) your inexperience. Also, those who want to trample on your idealism
) with the rotting foot of their gods (the so-called pure reasoned
) humanism and immaculate science), should be ignored.
)
) There are kind and thoughtful critics of WE, and also true believers
) who wouldn't know an actually true idea if it bit them on the nose.
)
) Remain open, and continue to think for yourself.
)
) warm regards,
) joel wendt
) "the narrow gate": http://www.microweb.com/hermit
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n707.2 ---------------
From: Angelica (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: Re: Bay Area: Heart lecture May 26
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 19:02:03 -0500
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) Dr. Hans-Christoph Kummell, a cardiologist and the head of a European
) Anthroposopohical hospital in Europe will give a lecture "The Spiritual
) Function of the Human Heart" at 7:30 PM Tuesday, May 26, at the San
) Francisco Waldorf School.
) Be there or be square!
I for one would love to be....
Dan Dugan uses the following list of derogatory, oppionated,
unscientific terms in a relatively short message:
pseudoscience
quack medicine
nonsense
folly
mis-educated
cult beliefs
quack medicine
Dan, these are not even descriptive words, they're simply labels.
Overused jargon, filled with contempt, but very little meaning or
substance. They're put downs and insults but dont' inform anyone about
anything. Why don't you address what really concerns you, specifically,
rather than hiding behind cliches?
What about the science program at your sons school disturbed you so
much? And aside from that specifically, what is being taught in waldorf
schools that seems so wrong? Be to the point, give us some examples.
One can't discuss an issue that is only dimly represented.
As soon as I get home, I intend to find my biology main lesson books
from highschool, and pass on the list exactly what *was* presented to
us. I doubt that very much of it will be objectionable.
I also can't help but ask why someone who apparently looks so critically
at everything could have sent a child to a school with which you so
strongly disagree? Where was yoru critical reasoning then?
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n707.3 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 16:47:22 -0700
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Daniel Sabsay wrote:
) Angelica Hesse, (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu) wrote )
)
) )I dont' buy the argument that the heart is a pump!!!
I do, but it really isn't an issue in my life.
) Furthermore, I am appalled to see how this "fact that you could not
) ignore" [embryonic blood propelled by contractile endothelial cells that
) initially create the vessel walls, and ultimately become the foundation
) for arterial muscle cells forming the heart] has led you to the illogical
) conclusion "that the blood is not completely static and that the heart is
) not entirely responsible for 'forcing' it through our blood vessels".
) -- Daniel Sabsay, president
) East Bay Skeptics Society
In conversation with my girlfriend, who is a management consultant with a
pre-med degree with an emphasis on biotech, on the possible controversy that is
this thread, she gave a few quick, undeveloped thoughts on the possible facets of
the arguments. She agreed that there is no controversy, but expounded on the
cardiovascular force known as capillary action to explain Angelica's side of the
argument. Remember, she knows nothing of WE (besides an odd anecdote here and
there) or Anthroposophical tradition, so it may be way off target.
Briefly, to shore up the statement by A. of how the (paraphrased) same forces can
be seen to work in water, she reminded me of analogous cardiovascular systems in
plants that have no 'pump, so to speak, but still circulate using principles of
capillary action. The fact that the surface of water in a test tube is not flat
but concave is another example of the myriad forces at work. This force (surface
tension), along with principles of the vacuum, provide the primary conceptual
foundations of capillary action (as I understand it).
Now, this bit of rumination does not provide for legitimate controversy in my
mind, but it does serve to offer some context for A.'s remarks. But then again,
I haven't read the Anthro literature on the subject and they may be basing their
arguments on castles in the sky.
ezra
PS If I run across my HS main lesson books on bio I will scan them and post them
on an accessible page for perusal.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n707.4 ---------------
From: Daniel Sabsay (danielsabsay earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 98 17:17:46 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Angelica Hesse (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu) wrote )
)Once again. This [Marinelli's] study, and all of it's implications WERE NOT
)TAUGHT in waldorf school. The 'normal' theories and explanations were
)presented, as far as I remember, along with indications of possible flaws in
)some of the mainstream reasoning. I already said I picked the article up at
)home.
Nevertheless, only anthroposophy/Waldorf is clinging to this old Steiner
myth for reasons having nothing to do with science.
)My current frustrations with my bio class mostly have to do with
)it's not really giving explanations for WHY things happen (especially
)illnesses).
Does it help to ask why a particular deer was slain by a particular lion?
It is simply the nature of the deer and the lion. This is the
explanation. What kind of "WHY" were you expecting from biology class?
-- Daniel Sabsay, president
East Bay Skeptics Society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n707.5 ---------------
From: Angelica (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 20:41:05 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Daniel Sabsay wrote:
) Nevertheless, only anthroposophy/Waldorf is clinging to this old Steiner
) myth for reasons having nothing to do with science.
Steiner simply suggested that if one looked at the world, certain things
would be evident. It's up to the scientists to prove or disprove this.
) Does it help to ask why a particular deer was slain by a particular lion?
) It is simply the nature of the deer and the lion. This is the
) explanation. What kind of "WHY" were you expecting from biology class?
For example: numerous problems with various bodily systems
(cardiovascular, digestive, etc) were frequently said to be due to
parasympathetic overactivity. My question, in this particular case, was
: why the overactivity? What's the cause of that? Saying overactivity
of this system causes a problem still doesnt' tell me why the problem
exists.
Angelica G. Hesse
hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n707.6 ---------------
From: Robert Flannery (litvas icu.com)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 21:28:02 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In-Reply-To: (199804060018.RAA18377 lists1.best.com)
)Nevertheless, only anthroposophy/Waldorf is clinging to this old Steiner
)myth for reasons having nothing to do with science.
Drop the "waldorf" part of that claim,. Dan.
I know it saddens you and others on the list to have to let go of such a
bizarre bit of anthroposophical dogma, but it really isn't in the schools.
Robert Flannery
New York
litvas icu.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n707.7 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 14:32:11 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In-Reply-To: (199804060118.SAA16051 lists1.best.com)
))Nevertheless, only anthroposophy/Waldorf is clinging to this old Steiner
))myth for reasons having nothing to do with science.
)
)
)Drop the "waldorf" part of that claim,. Dan.
)
)I know it saddens you and others on the list to have to let go of such a
)bizarre bit of anthroposophical dogma, but it really isn't in the schools.
)
)Robert Flannery
)New York
)litvas icu.com
KOPP says:
Bullshit, Flannery.
Who knows what Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposoophical teachers say to the kids
in the privacy of their classrooms, that never winds up in a main lesson
book?
"Heart is not a pump" was in my kids' Steiner school (and still is, unless
they are running scared of my criticism, which I somehow doubt, given that
they've got the whole educational bureaucracy here fooled).
Other examples of mystical mumbo-jumbo my children were exposed to:
Alchemy is real, we could transmute elements (turn lead into gold)
chemically (not by nuclear means) if we could but reclaim the lost
wisdom of the ages.
The pyramids of Egypt were constructed by people who knew how to
use acoustic energy (sound) to move massive weights; the ancients
knew lots of advanced stuff that we have "lost".
The Greek epic poetic meter, dactylic hexameter, was invented by Homer
(wrong, predates him) based on the relationship between the number of
human heartbeats in a life, the number of human breaths in a life,
and the number of years in the "platonic year", or what we know as the
precession of the equinoxes. This ignores the fact that the platonic
year was not discovered by Plato, but another Greek astronomer LATER
than both Homer and Plato by a couple of hundred years. It is another
example of the influence of mystical mumbo-jumbo known as numeralogy
in SWA. This one actually wound up in a main lesson book (available
for inspection, if anyone wants a copy). It was the precipitating
factor in our departure from our Steiner school. Challenged, the
teacher did not reply. Challenged in writing (under this country's
official information act, which requires answers from schools which
take public money) the college of teachers and the board of trustees
did not reply. Challenged at a meeting with representatives of those
bodies, no answer was provided by any of four people, except the usual:
"you don't understand Anthroposopohy" and "if you just had an open
mind and studied more, you would see what other wonderful things like
this are in it".
Codswallop, as they say here.
Abraham Lincoln said: "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and
all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people
all of the time." (This is sometimes attributed to PT Barnum, in case Dvid
Schlesinger, alias Lefty, my quotation editor, is looking over my shoulder.)
PT Barnum DID said say "There's a sucker born every minute". This sounds
much more like the "ALL of the SWA-believers, ALL of the time" that I found.
We were fooled by some things our Steiner school told us (false advertising
like "Anthroposophy is not in the classroom"). We were fooled some of the
time (until we started hearing pseudo-science like "fringe colours", and
Goethe's phenomenology, and plants influenced by the Moon and planets, and
a plant is like an upside down person -- or is it the other way 'round?).
But in the end we weren't _completely_ fooled _all_ of the time. And we're
not suckers, we're skeptics. So we're outta there, folks.
(Yes there were some good aspects to our Steiner school -- read the
archives and you'll see I praised them for some things, too. But the
mumbo-jumbo content got too much, and the refusal to deal with my queries
was the last straw.)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n707.8 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: Re: Bay Area: Heart lecture May 26
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 14:47:07 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199804050952.BAA20614 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199804052256.PAA09111 lists1.best.com)
Angelica says:
)Dan Dugan uses the following list of derogatory, oppionated,
)unscientific terms in a relatively short message:
)
)pseudoscience
)quack medicine
)nonsense
)folly
)mis-educated
)cult beliefs
)quack medicine
)
)Dan, these are not even descriptive words, they're simply labels.
)Overused jargon, filled with contempt, but very little meaning or
)substance. They're put downs and insults but dont' inform anyone about
)anything. Why don't you address what really concerns you, specifically,
)rather than hiding behind cliches?
)
)What about the science program at your sons school disturbed you so
)much? And aside from that specifically, what is being taught in waldorf
)schools that seems so wrong? Be to the point, give us some examples.
)One can't discuss an issue that is only dimly represented.
KOPP says:
I've given Angelica this advice before, privately, but I'll do it again,
because it doesn't seem to have stuck: read the archives before you leap
into such accusations. The words Dugan uses are perfectly good descriptive,
critical comments in shorthand for the very lengthy, very-well researched,
even scholarly work that Dugan has done on Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophy.
The only reason they're "labels" to Angelica is that she identifies with
the thing being criticised, and it's easier to fend off such criticism by
calling it "labelling" than it is to address the criticism.
If you can't be bothered with the archives (they are difficult, unless read
sequentially) then at least read the PLANS Web page, where a lot of the
criticism is encapsulated, in articles from a variety of sources, not just
Dugan's. His experience with weird science is right there on the PLANS page.
)As soon as I get home, I intend to find my biology main lesson books
)from highschool, and pass on the list exactly what *was* presented to
)us. I doubt that very much of it will be objectionable.
)
)I also can't help but ask why someone who apparently looks so critically
)at everything could have sent a child to a school with which you so
)strongly disagree? Where was yoru critical reasoning then?
KOPP says:
Because the SWA school authorities engage in duplicity and outright false
advertising. See my reply to Robert Flannery's post, "Re: heart as pump,
etc ..." for some recapitulation of details I have previously posted of my
experience.
When critically-thinking, ratio0nal, skeptical people finally see what SWA
involves (spiritualism, pseudo-science, mystical, esoteric mumbo-jumbo)
they usually start asking questions. When no satisfactory answers are
forthcoming, they do their homework as best they can from other sources.
When they challenge the SWA authories, and are ignored, they start to
complain and agitate. When no change is forthcoming, and they are instead
abused and turned on, or, worse, their children are singled out for
negative treatment, they leave. After they leave, they keep up their
criticism in order that other prospective parents may know in advance that
there are unaddressed problems, and to ensure that SWA schols -- especially
publicly funded ones -- are held accountable to secular authorities, or
that SWA is kept out of public schools. All fair.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n707.9 ---------------
From: Robert Flannery (litvas icu.com)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 06:25:00 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199804060118.SAA16051 lists1.best.com)
(199804060018.RAA18377 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199804060300.UAA20045 lists1.best.com)
)Bullshit, Flannery.
Nice to see you again, too, Michael.
)Who knows what Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposoophical teachers say to the kids
)in the privacy of their classrooms, that never winds up in a main lesson
)book?
Well, this line of investigation will no doubt have you up for the Pulitzer
Prize soon.
Once again, I am struck by the notion that you're not interested in real
dialogue on this or any other issue.
Since that seems patently obvious, I'll return to my earlier point, which
is equally clear (unless you're arguing from the standard of "we don't know
what they might be saying to these children behind closed doors!"):
Waldorf schools don't teach that the heart is not a pump.
Find something else to fixate on, gentlemen.
Robert Flannery
New York
litvas icu.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n707.10 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 22:56:07 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199804060300.UAA20045 lists1.best.com)
(199804060118.SAA16051 lists1.best.com)
(199804060018.RAA18377 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199804061016.DAA01503 lists1.best.com)
Robert Flannery says ad nauseam:
)Waldorf schools don't teach that the heart is not a pump.
)
)Find something else to fixate on, gentlemen.
KOPP says:
Why? If more than one Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophical (SWA) school
teacher has told this to his or her students, then it is reasonable to
wonder how many others do so, surely?
I have said it happened in my school. Are you calling me a liar, Flannery?
Others on this list have said it happened in their schools. Are you calling
them liars?
The fact that almost all SWA classrooms are closed to parents during main
lessons (and most of the rest of the day) means that the only way we can
know what is said in them is interrogate or overhear or listen closely to
what our children say.
It was my son who told me about the pseudoscience he was hearing. He had
had the beginnings of a regular science education in public school before
going to a Steiner school, and his dad was a science reporter -- so he knew
bullshit when he heard it. Good, keen, skeptical lad, my boy.
We fixate; Flannery and his ilk dissemble and dismiss.
Nothing changes.
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n707 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n708 --------------
001 - Michael Kopp (mkopp actri - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
002 - Neil Faiman (faiman zko.d - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
003 - Robert Flannery (litvas i - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
004 - Robert Flannery (litvas i - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
005 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Grand Jury
006 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Bay Area: Heart lecture May 26
007 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
008 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Grand Jury
009 - Daniel Sabsay (danielsabs - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
010 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: Bay Area: Heart lecture May 26
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n708.1 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 23:41:03 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199804060018.RAA18377 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199804060036.RAA27017 lists1.best.com)
Angelica writes:
)Daniel Sabsay wrote:
)
)) Nevertheless, only anthroposophy/Waldorf is clinging to this old Steiner
)) myth [heart is not a pump] for reasons having nothing to do with science.
)
And Angelica replies:
)Steiner simply suggested that if one looked at the world, certain things
)would be evident. It's up to the scientists to prove or disprove this.
KOPP says:
No, Angelica, you've got it wrong. You need to read your Steiner more
closely. Steiner said he had "knowledge of higher realms" that was revealed
to him, and that the only way for others to come to it was to use his
method, which was, essentially, clairvoyance, or looking into the spirit
world. This method is certainly not one of the tools of the scientists I
respect. I don't even know if any of the scientists I DON'T respect, like
the "Anthrosophical Scientists" who have their own mailing list, have
mastered these techniques of Steiner's.
Again, I suggest you read the archives of this list before prating the
Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophical (SWA) line. (The easy way to do this is
use a Web search engine like Alta Vista, which will bring up an entire
month of Dan Dugan's archives in which your search query appears. After
this has loaded to your screen, you can use the "find" feature of your
browser to locate either the same search string or the date specified.)
While no SWA adherent, believer, apologist or defender of the faith on this
list has ever -- repeat ever -- agreed fully with any criticism made here
of any of Steiner's dogma, plenty of it has been criticised.
But it is certainly not up to "the scientists" -- by which I take you to
mean those of the regular scientific establishment, not the esoteric one
--to prove or disprove any of Steiner's imaginings. Standard science cannot
treat of supernaturalism, it can only deal with the natural world (a topic
discussed many times on this list in the last two years).
It is up to those who espouse concepts as truths to provide the proofs:
something SWA has not ever been able to do in any other way than the
mystical guru-trick of "looking at the world". Of course people come to
believe that the guru's fantasies are real; how else can they persuade
themselves that they have invested in something worthwhile? To question is
to make a fool of oneself.
Marinelli's pseudo-science is an example of SWA trying to "prove" one of
Steiner's fantasies. (Marinelli is an obviously-dedicated Steiner fan.) By
the standards of the mainstream scientific method his work is shonky and
cannot be replicated, which is one of the tenets of science. A theory
cannot be accepted unless it can be proved by more than one worker. (What
scientific method did they teach you at SWA school, Angelica: one that
leads you to ask "why" [causation] about natural phenomena?)
Same with water memory, plants responding to the Moon and planets, and
Marinelli's latest foray, reported in "Frontier Perspectives", the journal
of the "Centre for Frontier Science" (read: way-out pseudo-science).
Marinelli appears to be a real polymath (at least in his mirror). Not
content with refuting all known mammalian physiology of the heart, he now
reports on his experiments (with a gramophone turntable and a marble) to
prove that there is a universal background force that acts on all bodies in
opposition to gravity. This force -- levity (I kid you not) -- was ascribed
to air and fire by Aristotle, and is an example of the discarded natural
philosophy that so many of the current wave of pseuds are attempting to
revive.
Marinelli claims that Galileo rediscovered this anti-gravity force, and
experimentally proved it, but that this work was "not heeded" (presumably
by the horrible scientific establishment of the time) and therefore lost.
Science historians say that Galileo's experiments proved to him the
opposite, that there was no such Aristotelian force [1], and HE discarded
it, to the greatness of his scientific achievement, upon which Newton
(another SWA bogie) stood.
Marinelli claims his experiments with the gramophone turntable re-prove the
lost Galileian discovery. Levity, he says, "is a force with a source
outside the earth. Since it approaches the earth from every direction, it
must have a source in the cosmic, spherical periphery at least as far as
the sphere outlined by the orbit of the moon. Like gravity it permeates all
matter. It pulls radially outward on every rotating object [those in
curvilinear motion] from the earth as planet to the molecules and
submolecular particles in living cells and inanimate matter. It is passive
to linearly moving objects."
Further on, Marinelli says "When it was found that linear inertia is
inoperative in curvilinear motion and that centrifugal mortion was radially
directed, it was obvious that we [sic - he doesn't say who the "we" is] had
discovered a new force -- a centrifugal force acting from outside the
orbiting system. This force was described by Rudolf Steiner but as is his
style of teaching, he left its actual discovery to others. He stated that
humankind is obliged to live amidst error and lies and truth and that we
gain our individual freedom by working to understand and extricate the
truth from the errors and lies. This he called the special moral battle of
the 20th century and beyond." [2]
Marinelli-the-polymath's formal qualifications for this work are not given
in his communication. The original publication of the Heart is not a pump
article was also in the Fall-Winter 1995 [Volume 5, #1] issue of
Frontier Perspectives, published by the Center for Frontier Sciences at
Temple University in Philadelphia, Pa.)
THE HEART IS NOT A PUMP:
A REFUTATION OF THE PRESSURE PROPULSION
PREMISE OF HEART FUNCTION
by
Ralph Marinelli, 1; Branko Furst, 2; Hoyte van der Zee,3;
Andrew McGinn,4; William Marinelli, 5
1. Rudolf Steiner Research Center, Royal Oak, MI
2. Dept. of Anesthesiology, Albany Medical College, Albany, NY
3. Dept. of Anesthesiology and Physiology, Albany Medical College, NY
4. Cardiovascular Consultants Ltd., Minneapolis, MN. Department of
Medicine, University of Minnesota, MN
5. Hennipen County Medical Center and Dept. of Medicine, University
of Minnesota, MN
Note that no academic qualifications are listed for any of these people.
None of them except William Marinelli are mentioned on the Internet.
An Alta Vista search pulls exactly three references to "Ralph Marinelli"
with or without any combined terms related to his subjects -- and all three
are critical comments in the archives of the Waldorf Critics list (!) which
is probably the only critical review of his work to appear anywhere. Quite
an honour for us poor skeptics, I'd say. Wonder if Marinelli will cite us?
Marinelli, elsewhere called an "engineer", is "at" the "Rudolf Steiner
Research Center" in Royal Oak, Michigan, U.S.A. The provenance,
organisation, work and nature of this organisation is not known. It is not
found on the Internet.
But the address of the "Rudolf Steiner Research Center" *IS the same as*
that for "William & Ralph Marinelli, 2825 Vinsetta Blvd, Royal Oak,MI
48073-3341". Either Ralph has lodgings at the "Rudolf Steiner Research
Center", or, perhaps, the "Rudolf Steiner Research Center" is in Ralph's
basement, attic, or garage (along with his victrola collection). There is
no telephone listing in Royal Oak, Michigan, for any Rudolf Steiner
institution.
There is a "William A Marinelli", whose relationship to Ralph is unknown,
listed as an Associate Professor of Medicine at the University of Minnesota
Department of Medicine.
Ralph Marinelli may or may not be acquainted with the work or person of one
"Professor John Searl", an "English inventor", who claims to have reversed
the attraction of gravity. Searl claims to have conquered gravity with
"levity discs", which work something like repelling magnets, apparently,
and he has created an anti-gravity flying vehicle that utilises this
principle and "power source". As far as I know, Searl has no connection
with Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophy, nor does he claim his discoveries are
related to the "knowledge of higher realms" of Rudolf Steiner. Unlike
Marinelli, he does not dedicate his work to Steiner.
"Frontier Sciences", the journal of The Center for Frontier Sciences,
publishes papers with titles like: "The effects of magnetized mineral water
on memory loss delay in Alzheimers's disease"; "Is dead matter aware of its
environment"; "On the nature of Tarot" (suggesting that Tarot readings
point to a "unifying principle or field" which suggests that the "Universe
itself is trying to communicate with us"; and "Is a living system a
macroscopic quantum system?".
[1] Remember that Galileo was a classically-trained scientist first, before
he broke new ground. (And don't tell me Marinelli fits that mold today!)
[2] Quoted from "Frontier Perspectives" with the general permission I
received from it to quote Marinelli's "heart" paper as long as I attributed
it to the journal. Happy to do so. The Centre for Fontier Sciences at
Temple University has just celebrated its tenth anniversary. It would be
interesting to know how many of the papers and correspondences about
research it has published in that time have gone on to wider recognition by
the mainstream science community; how many new priniciples or theories or
discoveries have been validated by replication; how many of the authors
have gone on to wider recognition as researchers; how many of these
"frontier sciences" have become commonplace givens.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n708.2 ---------------
From: Neil Faiman (faiman zko.dec.com)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:11:45 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Greetings.
Robert Flannery recently proposed to Michael Kopp that:
) Waldorf schools don't teach that the heart is not a pump.
)
) Find something else to fixate on, gentlemen.
I'll have to part company with Robert for a change.
A handful of critics have reported from their own experience that *some* =
Waldorf schools teach that "the heart is not a pump" (or, at least, =
manage to teach a physiology lesson on the function of the heart that =
neglects to mention that the heart pumps the blood).
A handful of counter-critics have reported from their own experience =
that *some* Waldorf schools teach that the heart pumps the blood.
It seems clear that the pumpishness or non-pumpishness of the heart is =
not a matter of uniform Waldorf school dogma; but it appears that it may =
be a matter of dogma for some individual teachers or schools. Until =
someone compiles systematic nationwide (or worldwide) statistics of what =
is taught in each individual Waldorf classroom, Michael and Dan will =
doubtless continue to regard the school's of Robert's and my experience =
as anomalies, and Robert and I will doubtless continue to regard =
Michael's and Dan's experience as the anomaly.
Meanwhile, if I were contemplating a new Waldorf school today, I would =
probably want to take a good look at some middle school science main =
lesson books first. If my daughter had been taught the pseudo-science =
that Michael reports his children having taught, we probably would have =
been out the door, too.
Regards,
Neil Faiman, satisfied Waldorf alumni parent
p.s. My inclination to regard Michael's reports as anomalous is =
enhanced by the fact that at least some of the howlers he reports -- =
such as 'The pyramids of Egypt were constructed by people who knew how =
to use acoustic energy (sound) to move massive weights; the ancients =
knew lots of advanced stuff that we have "lost"' -- are not only far out =
of normal science, but well outside the anthroposophical mainstream as =
well. Whatever axe Michael's children's teachers may have been =
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n708.3 ---------------
From: Robert Flannery (litvas icu.com)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 12:18:02 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199804061016.DAA01503 lists1.best.com)
(199804060300.UAA20045 lists1.best.com)
(199804060118.SAA16051 lists1.best.com)
(199804060018.RAA18377 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199804061054.DAA12853 lists1.best.com)
)If more than one Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophical (SWA) school
)teacher has told this to his or her students, then it is reasonable to
)wonder how many others do so, surely?
)
)I have said it happened in my school. Are you calling me a liar, Flannery?
No. "Liar" is not the first thing that comes to mind when I think of you,
Michael.
)The fact that almost all SWA classrooms are closed to parents during main
)lessons (and most of the rest of the day) means that the only way we can
)know what is said in them is interrogate or overhear or listen closely to
)what our children say.
Or send grand juries into waldorf classrooms.
[Note to recent subscribers: according to Debra Snell, a grand jury
visited a public waldorf school in her area last year, and spent time in
some classrooms. Whatever conclusions they reached have never been
reported to this list, unfortunately.]
)Nothing changes.
You've nailed it down there, mate.
Robert Flannery
New York
litvas icu.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n708.4 ---------------
From: Robert Flannery (litvas icu.com)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 12:49:21 -0400
)A handful of critics have reported from their own experience that *some*
)Waldorf schools teach )that "the heart is not a pump" (or, at least,
)manage to teach a physiology lesson on the function of )the heart that
)neglects to mention that the heart pumps the blood).
Let me check my list history. Please correct my chronology, or add to it
if it is incomplete.
1) Michael Kopp has main lesson books from New Zealand which
include the teaching
that the heart is not a pump, or does not pump the blood.
2) Dan Dugan has similar main lesson books from San Francisco.
3) No one else on the list has reported similar lessons at their
schools.
4) Three or four people have piped up and said it doesn't happen
at school "x".
I'm willing to propose that at least 99% of the waldorf schools worldwide
don't teach this notion, nor do they teach alchemy or that sound power
built the pyramids.
Dan's had this list up for over two years, and the most damning evidence of
poor science instruction has come from two schools. Dan and Michael: How
many different classes did your material come from? Is it possible,
Michael, that one teacher is responsible for the garbage that your son was
taught? How about you, Dan? When you criticized the science curriculum,
how many teachers were giving this type of science instruction to your son
in their classrooms?
Remember, in waldorf schools, there are no lesson plans which come from the
school district or superintendent. There is no headmaster who is
responsible for course content. The teachers in each school have to be
self-policing, in order to maintain the integrity of coursework.
If there is no mentoring in a school, or the mentoring is weak,
unacceptable things can happen.
The "race card" has been deployed on this list in a similar fashion. One
main lesson book from the Netherlands contains racial stereotyping, and
suddenly the cry is heard on this list that "waldorf schools are racist!"
Here's your chance, critics. What do you really know about racism and bad
science in schools which you are directly familiar with? Michael Kopp has
just refreshed our memories as to what happened at his school, but what
about the rest of you?
Dan Saykaly, did it happen in Quebec?
Dan Sabsay, do they teach this stuff at the East Bay Waldorf School?
Deby and David, was it taught at Mariposa, or Twin Ridges, or Yuba River?
Kathy, did you see any of this in Sacramento? Were you taught it at Rudolf
Steiner College, in your teacher-training course?
Dan, what do your far-flung correspondents report?
C'mon lurkers! Any horror stories? White supremacy in Sandpoint, Idaho?
Shameful science in Charlottesville? Bring all the skeletons out of all
the closets. Dust everything off, and put an Easter bonnet on it. Time
for the parade.
Remember, this list should be a magnet for this stuff. And it's been here
for years.
P.S.: I'll give you a break, Herman, since you're an academic, and let you
report on research.
Robert Flannery
New York
litvas icu.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n708.5 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Grand Jury
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 10:24:55 -0800
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References: (199804061016.DAA01503 lists1.best.com)
(199804060300.UAA20045 lists1.best.com)
(199804060118.SAA16051 lists1.best.com)
(199804060018.RAA18377 lists1.best.com) (199804061608.JAA19741 lists1.best.com)
Robert Flannery wrote:
) Or send grand juries into waldorf classrooms.
)
) [Note to recent subscribers: according to Debra Snell, a grand jury
) visited a public waldorf school in her area last year, and spent time in
) some classrooms. Whatever conclusions they reached have never been
) reported to this list, unfortunately.]
)
While Twin Ridges School District Superintendent, Dave Taylor stated that the local
Waldorf school was cleared of Anthroposophy by the Grand Jury, no such
determination was made. Nevada County Grand Jury stated that evaluating public
school curriculum is outside their scope.
Debra
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n708.6 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Bay Area: Heart lecture May 26
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 11:35:49 -0700
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References: (199804050952.BAA20614 lists1.best.com) (199804060302.UAA21421 lists1.best.com)
Michael Kopp wrote:
) The words Dugan uses are perfectly good descriptive,
) critical comments in shorthand for the very lengthy, very-well researched,
) even scholarly work that Dugan has done on Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophy.
If you are suggesting that such loaded language is truly the product of Dans
work, I think you are undermining any claim to the detached observer discipline
demanded of scientific inquiry. You won't find such language in scientific
journals.
) When they challenge the SWA authories, and are ignored, they start to
) complain and agitate. When no change is forthcoming, and they are instead
) abused and turned on, or, worse, their children are singled out for
) negative treatment, they leave. After they leave, they keep up their
) criticism in order that other prospective parents may know in advance that
) there are unaddressed problems, and to ensure that SWA schols -- especially
) publicly funded ones -- are held accountable to secular authorities, or
) that SWA is kept out of public schools. All fair.
I think this is the heart of the matter, but you do your cause an injustice by
taking an equally zealous but opposite position to your opponents.
ezra
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n708.7 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 12:16:04 -0700
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Michael Kopp wrote:
) Marinelli appears to be a real polymath (at least in his mirror). Not
) content with refuting all known mammalian physiology of the heart, he now
) reports on his experiments (with a gramophone turntable and a marble) to
) prove that there is a universal background force that acts on all bodies in
) opposition to gravity. This force -- levity (I kid you not) -- was ascribed
) to air and fire by Aristotle, and is an example of the discarded natural
) philosophy that so many of the current wave of pseuds are attempting to
) revive.
There was a recent report on the AP wire of such a force, but with a decidely
different spin (no pun intended). Seems there is an often overlooked wrinkle in
Einstein's theory that allows for such a force to exist. Einstein theorized on
the force, but later retracted his work, calling it a biggest mistake. I believe
that story was news because some researches had found something to once again
prove the scientific master and prognosticator of such phenomena as the laser
correct once again. Anti-gravity is a more scientific literature friendly term
than levity, I grant you that.
) Science historians say that Galileo's experiments proved to him the
) opposite, that there was no such Aristotelian force [1], and HE discarded
) it, to the greatness of his scientific achievement, upon which Newton
) (another SWA bogie) stood.
Did you know that Newton believed that posterity would remember him most for his
theological work? That was what he believed to be his true calling. I think
that PLANS should get educators to remove public funding of curriculums based on
concepts of such a religous freak. Anybody volunteer to scouer the Philosophiae
naturalis principia mathematica for religious references? Finally, Newton was
an asshole.
) [1] Remember that Galileo was a classically-trained scientist first, before
) he broke new ground. (And don't tell me Marinelli fits that mold today!)
Could you elucidate on the meaning of 'classically trained' in the context of
the 17th century? Since Bacon died in the 17th century, it seems like a
capricious statement.
ezra
--------------43CA69C02A20BFAA9F5E9BA5
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(HTML)
(P)Michael Kopp wrote:
(BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE)Marinelli appears to be a real polymath (at least
in his mirror). Not
(BR)content with refuting all known mammalian physiology of the heart,
he now
(BR)reports on his experiments (with a gramophone turntable and a marble)
to
(BR)prove that there is a universal background force that acts on all bodies
in
(BR)opposition to gravity. This force -- levity (I kid you not) -- was
ascribed
(BR)to air and fire by Aristotle, and is an example of the discarded natural
(BR)philosophy that so many of the current wave of pseuds are attempting
to
(BR)revive.(/BLOCKQUOTE)
There was a recent report on the AP wire of such a force, but with a decidely
different spin (no pun intended). Seems there is an often overlooked wrinkle
in Einstein's theory that allows for such a force to exist. Einstein
theorized on the force, but later retracted his work, calling it a biggest
mistake. I believe that story was news because some researches had found
something to once again prove the scientific master and prognosticator
of such phenomena as the laser correct once again. Anti-gravity is
a more scientific literature friendly term than levity, I grant you that.
(BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE)Science historians say that Galileo's experiments
proved to him the
(BR)opposite, that there was no such Aristotelian force [1], and HE discarded
(BR)it, to the greatness of his scientific achievement, upon which Newton
(BR)(another SWA bogie) stood.(/BLOCKQUOTE)
Did you know that Newton believed that posterity would remember him most
for his theological work? That was what he believed to be his true
calling. I think that PLANS should get educators to remove public
funding of curriculums based on concepts of such a religous freak.
Anybody volunteer to scouer the (I)Philosophiae naturalis principia mathematica
(/I)for religious references? Finally, Newton was an asshole.
(BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE)
(P)[1] Remember that Galileo was a classically-trained scientist first,
before
(BR)he broke new ground. (And don't tell me Marinelli fits that mold today!)(/BLOCKQUOTE)
Could you elucidate on the meaning of 'classically trained' in the context
of the 17th century? Since Bacon died in the 17th century, it seems
like a capricious statement.
(P)ezra
(BR) (/HTML)
--------------43CA69C02A20BFAA9F5E9BA5--
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n708.8 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Grand Jury
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 12:21:17 -0700
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References: (199804061016.DAA01503 lists1.best.com)
(199804060300.UAA20045 lists1.best.com)
(199804060118.SAA16051 lists1.best.com)
(199804060018.RAA18377 lists1.best.com) (199804061608.JAA19741 lists1.best.com) (199804061739.KAA17027 lists1.best.com)
A Federal Grand Jury would be necessary to investigate infractions of Federal law, like
separation of church and state.
ezra
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n708.9 ---------------
From: Daniel Sabsay (danielsabsay earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 98 12:29:52 -0700
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Robert Flannery (litvas icu.com) writes )
)Dan Sabsay, do they teach this stuff at the East Bay Waldorf School?
I have never personally examined the pedogogy at this school, but the
several lectures I have attended featured anthroposophical cracked
science, and an audience of teachers & parents who nodded approvingly at
the nonsense.
-- Daniel Sabsay, president
East Bay Skeptics Society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n708.10 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: Bay Area: Heart lecture May 26
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 13:27:53 -0800
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References: (199804050952.BAA20614 lists1.best.com) (199804060302.UAA21421 lists1.best.com) (199804061836.LAA00839 lists1.best.com)
) Michael Kopp wrote:
) ) When they challenge the SWA authories, and are ignored, they start to
) ) complain and agitate. When no change is forthcoming, and they are instead
) ) abused and turned on, or, worse, their children are singled out for
) ) negative treatment, they leave. After they leave, they keep up their
) ) criticism in order that other prospective parents may know in advance that
) ) there are unaddressed problems, and to ensure that SWA schols -- especially
) ) publicly funded ones -- are held accountable to secular authorities, or
) ) that SWA is kept out of public schools. All fair.
In our area, children have been used as pawns [in an attempt to silence parents
_thought_ to be making accusations]. It is very effective. Parents have been directly
told that their child/children may no longer associate with their "Waldorf
child/children", regardless if their reasoning and allegations have any basis in fact.
It is painful to watch, and I'm glad that it didn't happen to my kids. When our
family left Waldorf, my oldest son was one of 17 children whose parents left
Waldorf. My youngest son was one of 12 children who left. It is much more difficult
to pick on groups of children/parents and be effective. The Waldorf children left
behind were the minority. I've been asked repeatedly why we didn't just leave if we
were unhappy, and not cause so much trouble. I am very glad that we left as we did.
Our children have been protected.
Debra
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n708 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n709 --------------
001 - Herman de Tollenaere (her - Racism (was: Heart as pump, etc....)
002 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
003 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Waldorf teachers
004 - angelica hesse (hesse96 m - mumbo-jumbo
005 - angelica hesse (hesse96 m - Re: Bay Area: Heart lecture May 26
006 - Robert Flannery (litvas i - Re: Racism (was: Heart as pump, etc....)
007 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Racism
008 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Waldorf teachers
009 - Michael Kopp (mkopp actri - Re: mumbo-jumbo
010 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: Waldorf teachers
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n709.1 ---------------
From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Racism (was: Heart as pump, etc....)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 22:49:57 +0200
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At 12:49 PM 6/4/98 -0400, Robert Flannery wrote:
)The "race card" has been deployed on this list in a similar fashion. One
)main lesson book from the Netherlands contains racial stereotyping, and
)suddenly the cry is heard on this list that "waldorf schools are racist!"
Just one main lesson book?? I wish that was right. Presumably, Robert means
the Waldorf school in Zutphen, described by Toos Jeurissen in her brochure
Uit de Vrije School Geklapt. However, there are more cases, like in Leiden;
and The Hague, as described by Edwin Kreulen (an ex-Waldorf student), the
editor for education, in the daily Trouw, which I posted to this list a few
months ago; and am re-posting here for those who missed it. Kreulen also
wrote that his case was not an isolated case from the 80s past.
No, it was definitely not just one teachers's 'racial stereotyping'. Max
Stibbe, founder of Waldorf education in The Netherlands (and in South
Africa), wrote extensively about the subject Rassenkunde (racial
ethnography), based on Steiner's ideas on 'races', in the Waldorf
curriculum, in Vrije Opvoedkunst, the Dutch Waldorf review.
---
In the Dutch national daily Trouw, Wednesday 4 February 1998, the editor for
Education, Edwin Kreulen, wrote a long article, "My education towards
racism". Mr Kreulen was a pupil at the The Hague Waldorf school, 1980-1986.
Some parts of it are translated here.
My education towards racism
Anthroposophical education
by Edwin Kreulen
... Recently, I found [my] exercise book [again], labelled 'Racial
Ethnography and Geography', [from when he was 13-14 years old]. ...
According to page 1 of my exercise book, all races originate from a kind of
primeval man, who lived ten thousand years ago in the central continent of
Atlantis; which, however, had to perish 'because of abuse of the divine
wisdom. On the bottom of the sea, one can still find the remains of this
continent as a long extensive reef'.
... 'With the first Southern races, the natural forces of earth and sun have
worked to blacken their skins. With the Northern races, the inner forces of
light became stronger, which made them whites.' 'The races became stuck at
different stages in their development from childhood to old age.' Then comes
a classification, linking the black race to childhood, the brown race to a
fourteen year old, and the whites to all ages ...
In this very chart, I thought the linking with parts of the body was as
least as remarkable. According to the exercise book, each race corresponds
to a part of the human body. Senses and brains are linked to whites,
metabolism to blacks. And only the white person has a straight face. Eg, the
yellow race has 'slanted eyes, a hollow face, flat nose, and coarse black hair.'
Next, the exercise book discusses all races individually; except for us, the
whites, for we obviously know about that already. ... 'All negroes still
keep a childish expression on their faces for a long time. The lips are
shapeless and thick, the nose somewhat flat and not yet grown up in a
sense.' ... 'Their ["negroes"'] stories, their views on the world and
creation have something childish. In childish simplicity they worship their
gods.' The chapter on the black race concludes: 'After being dominated for
centuries, the negroes are now developing on their own; however, this goes
with big problems and bloody wars.'
In my class, there was not a single non-European pupil. Usually, children of
more highly educated and more affluent Europeans go to Waldorf school. So, I
think: how would things be, had we had a black class mate, making it
possible for us to test directly the theory, whether he really had 'a
childish expression' on his face?
At a certain point, my defense of the school changes into pure anger. How
dare they indoctrinate me with this? And why did the government and its
inspectorate of education, not finish this? An anger, which only increases,
when today Anthroposophists, including a former teacher, keep defending this
by hook and by crook.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n709.2 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 14:22:06 -0700
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Michael Kopp wrote:
) Other examples of mystical mumbo-jumbo my children were exposed to:
)
) Alchemy is real, we could transmute elements (turn lead into gold)
) chemically (not by nuclear means) if we could but reclaim the lost
) wisdom of the ages.
If the nuclear method of 'transmutation' is discounted and we are indeed talking
alchemy, I question the competency of the teacher on several levels. As I have
stated before, and most scholars agree, the use of metaphor is fundamental to the
esoteric tradition, from the Egyptians on up. Only fools and dilettantes treat
such writing literally (be they Anthros or whomever).
) The pyramids of Egypt were constructed by people who knew how to
) use acoustic energy (sound) to move massive weights; the ancients
) knew lots of advanced stuff that we have "lost".
This is a new one, is this in the archives? If you could briefly outline the given
explanation I for one would appreciate it.
) The Greek epic poetic meter, dactylic hexameter, was invented by Homer
) (wrong, predates him) based on the relationship between the number of
) human heartbeats in a life, the number of human breaths in a life,
) and the number of years in the "platonic year", or what we know as the
) precession of the equinoxes. This ignores the fact that the platonic
) year was not discovered by Plato, but another Greek astronomer LATER
) than both Homer and Plato by a couple of hundred years.
The Platonic solids are not Plato's either, Plato merely extolled their virtues.
) It is another
) example of the influence of mystical mumbo-jumbo known as numeralogy
) in SWA.
Numeralogy is something most people are guilty of to one degree or another. This
milennium is going to bring out the best and worst of those addicted to base 10.
Coincidences abound in this world (See Paulos' "Innumeracy") and it would be
statistically stranger if they did not. Early societies noticed the coincidence,
but did not have the statisitcal sophistication to put them in context.
Nevertheless, these superstitions permeated the cultures of our (everyone's)
ancestors and are valid area of scholarship.And just because they 'wound up' in the
book does not mean anything. I drew pictures of Enki and Gilgamesh in my main
lesson book, so what?
) This one actually wound up in a main lesson book (available
) for inspection, if anyone wants a copy). It was the precipitating
) factor in our departure from our Steiner school. Challenged, the
) teacher did not reply. Challenged in writing (under this country's
) official information act, which requires answers from schools which
) take public money) the college of teachers and the board of trustees
) did not reply.
Would you mind reprinting the text of the challange?
) We were fooled by some things our Steiner school told us (false advertising
) like "Anthroposophy is not in the classroom").
I was never taught Anthroposophy.
) We were fooled some of the
) time (until we started hearing pseudo-science like "fringe colours", and
My memory of fringe colors was of staring at bright colors until you could see the
fringe color around the edges. What psuedo scientific claims were made to you ? I
do know that parents of hyperactive children are told to dress them in bright
colors, preferably red. Quite, interospective children should be dressed in
greens. Is there any basis for this in color therapy? Keep in mind that this is
told to the parents, not the kids. And if, as a kid, you find yourself with a
closet full of red underoos, I don't think the psychological damage is permanent.
Ezra "I'm not sick, but I'm not well" Beeman
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n709.3 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Waldorf teachers
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 15:05:52 -0800
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References: (199804060018.RAA18377 lists1.best.com) (199804060300.UAA20045 lists1.best.com) (199804062122.OAA23331 lists1.best.com)
Ezra writes,
) If the nuclear method of 'transmutation' is discounted and we are indeed talking
) alchemy, I question the competency of the teacher on several levels. As I have
) stated before, and most scholars agree, the use of metaphor is fundamental to the
) esoteric tradition, from the Egyptians on up. Only fools and dilettantes treat
) such writing literally (be they Anthros or whomever).
I think it gets back to the Waldorf teacher training program. I don't blame the
competency of the teachers - they are teaching what they were taught to teach.
PLANS web site lists the course study for Waldorf teachers at The Rudolf Steiner
College in Sacramento. It is woefully inadequate. How many Waldorf parents
understand what a Waldorf teacher certification really means? My son said [in
willful protest], "My teacher can't teach me to read because she doesn't know how!"
(I have since eaten my response to him...)
Debra
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n709.4 ---------------
From: angelica hesse (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: mumbo-jumbo
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 18:26:35 -0400 (EDT)
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In-Reply-To: (199804060300.UAA20045 lists1.best.com) from "Michael Kopp" at Apr 6, 98 02:32:11 pm
PRay, define this interesting new word you've coined!!!
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n709.5 ---------------
From: angelica hesse (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: Re: Bay Area: Heart lecture May 26
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 18:37:22 -0400 (EDT)
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In-Reply-To: (199804060302.UAA21421 lists1.best.com) from "Michael Kopp" at Apr 6, 98 02:47:07 pm
) KOPP says:
)
) I've given Angelica this advice before, privately, but I'll do it again,
) because it doesn't seem to have stuck: read the archives before you leap
) into such accusations. The words Dugan uses are perfectly good descriptive,
) critical comments in shorthand for the very lengthy, very-well researched,
) even scholarly work that Dugan has done on Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophy.
)
) The only reason they're "labels" to Angelica is that she identifies with
) the thing being criticised, and it's easier to fend off such criticism by
) calling it "labelling" than it is to address the criticism.
)
) If you can't be bothered with the archives (they are difficult, unless read
) sequentially) then at least read the PLANS Web page, where a lot of the
) criticism is encapsulated, in articles from a variety of sources, not just
) Dugan's. His experience with weird science is right there on the PLANS page.
Oh, look, there's another qualifier: weird. How many interpretations of
that do you think there are? All depends on one's perspective. Yes, they
are labels. Any word that is a cliche and applied to something in a
derogatory context is jus that. It has no other meaning. ANd also, if all
of this has been said so clearly and convincingly before, why denegrate that
by restating it in such a wishy-washy (hey, I can do this too!) way?
) Because the SWA school authorities engage in duplicity and outright false
) advertising. See my reply to Robert Flannery's post, "Re: heart as pump,
) etc ..." for some recapitulation of details I have previously posted of my
) experience.
Oh, this is just ridiculous... Would someone please explain this so-called
false advertising????
) When critically-thinking, ratio0nal, skeptical people finally see what SWA
) involves (spiritualism, pseudo-science, mystical, esoteric mumbo-jumbo)
) they usually start asking questions. When no satisfactory answers are
) forthcoming, they do their homework as best they can from other sources.
) When they challenge the SWA authories, and are ignored, they start to
) complain and agitate. When no change is forthcoming, and they are instead
) abused and turned on, or, worse, their children are singled out for
) negative treatment, they leave. After they leave, they keep up their
) criticism in order that other prospective parents may know in advance that
) there are unaddressed problems, and to ensure that SWA schols -- especially
) publicly funded ones -- are held accountable to secular authorities, or
) that SWA is kept out of public schools. All fair.
I can hardly believe my ears, to be honest. I have never in my life seen
any such apparently cruel, unfriendly, and unconcerned an attitude in anyone
in my own school. IT seems so out of character with waldorf. Unless of
course the confrontation was already mean-spiritied, in which case a similar
response is understandable (though still not terribly moral).
YOu know, if I didnt' know the WE movement, I would never be able to match
your descriptions with my observations and come to the conclusion that we
were dealing with teh same kind of school...
On the other hand, I certainly have to admit that perhaps this kind of thing
really did go on in your school. I'm still surprised. However, even
assuming it's true, there are so many schools where this sort of thing
doestn' happen, that it's not really fair to judge them all as a bad idea
based on one person (or group of people) who messed up. It sounds to me
like what you're mainly concerned with is the presentation of certain
perspectives in school that you dont' agree with. THe other issue, as I see
it, is one of schools that won't meet and talk to you properly. Those are
much more specific issues than the waldorf movement as a whole. THey're
also issues that could, and often do, come up in all schools.
ANgelica G) Hesse
hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n709.6 ---------------
From: Robert Flannery (litvas icu.com)
Subject: Re: Racism (was: Heart as pump, etc....)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 19:02:33 -0400
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In-Reply-To: (199804062100.OAA29609 lists1.best.com)
OK! I knew Herman wouldn't let me down, as he weighs in with a raft of
stuff from the Netherlands:
)Just one main lesson book?? I wish that was right. Presumably, Robert means
)the Waldorf school in Zutphen, described by Toos Jeurissen in her brochure
)Uit de Vrije School Geklapt. However, there are more cases, like in Leiden;
)and The Hague, as described by Edwin Kreulen (an ex-Waldorf student), the
)editor for education, in the daily Trouw, which I posted to this list a few
)months ago; and am re-posting here for those who missed it. Kreulen also
)wrote that his case was not an isolated case from the 80s past.
Good, good! Material to work with in the Netherlands. I think even Herman
would agree that the indefensible activity at these schools has led to a
close examination of waldorf education there from both within and without
the movement. This is a very good thing, and I applaud Herman's efforts to
uncover as much of this as he possibly can.
I suppose there are about 100-150 waldorf schools in the Netherlands, and
this documented activity would lead one to conclude that perhaps somewhere
between 5-15% of the Dutch schools have suffered the teaching of racial
stereotypes. I don't think anyone can claim that what Herman is describing
could be viewed as a "majority position", even in Dutch waldorf schools.
Now, what about the rest of the world? This racial business has been a hot
topic of late in waldorf circles, chiefly because of what's happened in the
Netherlands and also because of what Dan's list has promulgated (mostly in
the U.S.).
Why can't we find racism in main lesson books or lectures outside of these
schools in the Netherlands?
Michael, has the school in N.Z. taught your children to view racial
minorities the way you view "SWA" types?
Dan, was the San Francisco school a hotbed for bigots and racists?
Deby and David, are there Aryan supremacists in and around Grass Valley,
and do they send their children to the waldorf school there?
Kathy, we've heard that Rudolf Steiner College made you tell fairy tales
over and over again, and that you had to chant verses and walk
pentagrams--Did they make you read "The Turner Diaries"?
Daniel, you have been kind enough to quickly describe a lecture where
parents at the East Bay school were nodding their heads in agreement as all
sorts of ridiculous quackery was passed off as science. Have you attended
lectures there where racists were featured speakers, or where racial
stereotypes were promoted? Do Louis Farrakhan and David Duke get a lot of
mileage from the parents there? Do adults there smile at the mention of
these names?
Does anybody know anything about racism in waldorf schools? Why isn't this
list swamped with anecdotes about this?
(thanks, Herman, you can sit down now)
Robert Flannery
New York
litvas icu.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n709.7 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Racism
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 16:16:56 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199804062100.OAA29609 lists1.best.com)
With the notable exception of the Afrikaaners, Dutch society is recognized worldwide
as progressive. I don't understand how such a school could operate in such a
community without at least a tacit approval.
Am I to believe that this kind of thinking flourishes in Dutch communities?
Ezra
Herman de Tollenaere wrote:
) Just one main lesson book?? I wish that was right. Presumably, Robert means
) the Waldorf school in Zutphen, described by Toos Jeurissen in her brochure
) Uit de Vrije School Geklapt. However, there are more cases, like in Leiden;
) and The Hague, as described by Edwin Kreulen (an ex-Waldorf student), the
) editor for education, in the daily Trouw, which I posted to this list a few
) months ago; and am re-posting here for those who missed it. Kreulen also
) wrote that his case was not an isolated case from the 80s past.
)
) No, it was definitely not just one teachers's 'racial stereotyping'. Max
) Stibbe, founder of Waldorf education in The Netherlands (and in South
) Africa), wrote extensively about the subject Rassenkunde (racial
) ethnography), based on Steiner's ideas on 'races', in the Waldorf
) curriculum, in Vrije Opvoedkunst, the Dutch Waldorf review.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n709.8 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Waldorf teachers
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 16:10:27 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199804060018.RAA18377 lists1.best.com) (199804060300.UAA20045 lists1.best.com) (199804062122.OAA23331 lists1.best.com) (199804062206.PAA01699 lists1.best.com)
Off the cuff, I am inclined to agree with Debra that there are problems with RSC. On
the other hand, my experience is dated as I have had no contact with it since I was in
HS some 6 years ago. Since then I am told that it is being run by Astrid Schmitt, my
lower school teacher of some 8 years. Her father studied with Steiner. I don't
remember comming across the prospectise on the site, could you please post the url?
Further, I thought that the RSC training was supposed to supplement teaching
credentials, not replace them. Merely going through the training does not make you a
teacher to be hired by an accredited waldorf school. On the other hand, there are very
different requirements to teach elementary school than for lower school and HS.
Please don't use an exception to prove a rule, there is no logical bases for such an
argument.
Ezra
Debra Snell wrote:
) I think it gets back to the Waldorf teacher training program. I don't blame the
) competency of the teachers - they are teaching what they were taught to teach.
) PLANS web site lists the course study for Waldorf teachers at The Rudolf Steiner
) College in Sacramento. It is woefully inadequate. How many Waldorf parents
) understand what a Waldorf teacher certification really means? My son said [in
) willful protest], "My teacher can't teach me to read because she doesn't know how!"
) (I have since eaten my response to him...)
) Debra
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n709.9 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: Re: mumbo-jumbo
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:38:33 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199804060300.UAA20045 lists1.best.com) from "Michael Kopp" at
Apr 6, 98 02:32:11 pm
In-Reply-To: (199804062228.PAA21381 lists1.best.com)
Angelica Hesses writes:
)PRay, define this interesting new word you've coined!!!
KOPP says:
Presuming you mean the term mentioned in the subject line of your message
(your prayer doesn't specify), I commend you to any good dictionary (don't
you keep one beside you as you read?):
mumbo jumbo (in this dictionary it's not hyphenated, as I had it)
noun. 1. foolish religious reverence, ritual, or incantation.
2. meaningless or unnecessarily complicated language.
3. an object of superstitious awe or reverence.
Circa 18th Century, probably from West African _mama dyumbo_, name of a
tribal god.
Gee, we could use it to refer to Saint Rudi himself, not just his ravings.
Except maybe we should reverse the words, and call _him_ "jumbo [as in big]
mumbo" and his ravings "mumbo jumbo".
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n709.10 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: Waldorf teachers
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 19:34:02 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199804060018.RAA18377 lists1.best.com) (199804060300.UAA20045 lists1.best.com) (199804062122.OAA23331 lists1.best.com) (199804062206.PAA01699 lists1.best.com) (199804062342.QAA05732 lists1.best.com)
Ezra Beeman wrote:
)
) Off the cuff, I am inclined to agree with Debra that there are problems with RSC. On
) the other hand, my experience is dated as I have had no contact with it since I was in
) HS some 6 years ago. Since then I am told that it is being run by Astrid Schmitt, my
) lower school teacher of some 8 years. Her father studied with Steiner. I don't
) remember comming across the prospectise on the site, could you please post the url?
Sure,
http://www.waldorfcritics.org/articles/rsc_reading_list.html
http://www.waldorfcritics.org/articles/rsc_2nd_year_requirements.html
Debra
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n709 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n710 --------------
001 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - RSC teacher training URL
002 - angelica hesse (hesse96 m - Heart in Main Lesson Book
003 - lark involved.com (Lark J - Re: Heart in Main Lesson Book
004 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
005 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
006 - mckay oro.net (David B Mc - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
007 - Robert Flannery (litvas i - Re: Heart in Main Lesson Book
008 - Michael Kopp (mkopp actri - Re: RSC teacher training URL CORRECTION
009 - Michael Kopp (mkopp actri - Re: Heart in Main Lesson Book
010 - Robert Flannery (litvas i - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n710.1 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: RSC teacher training URL
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 20:33:52 -0800
Ezra Beeman asked for the url for RSC's teacher training course study. I gave them
and decided to try them out myself. I got a 'file not found' message. I suggest that
you go to PLANS web site http://www.waldorfcritics.org , scroll to articles and
go in that way if you have the same trouble I did. (Or perhaps someone could point
out my problem and correct it for everyone..)
Debra
) Sure,
) http://www.waldorfcritics.org/articles/rsc_reading_list.html
) http://www.waldorfcritics.org/articles/rsc_2nd_year_requirements.html
) Debra
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n710.2 ---------------
From: angelica hesse (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: Heart in Main Lesson Book
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 00:28:01 -0400 (EDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Okay everyone, I found my 10th grade Life Science (bio) main lesson book.
Oh yes, I keep them all around, I'm terribly proud of these works of art and
products of my mind!
The block started with some observations of the behavior of water (a drop on
an incline, a stream flowing down, ink dropped into water, vorteces caused
by dragging a stick through water, etc...)
After all of that was looked at, we proceded to embryology: fertilization of
an ovum, cell division, morula, differentiaation, implantation, formation of
spinal column, a time line of development of endo, meso and ectoderm
aspects, adn then ------------------
THE HEART!
Here is what I have written. Bare in mind, these are my own words, my
memory the night (or tow) after the material was presented in class. I had
forgotten much of what was written here, so you can imagine that anything
NOT written that MIGHT have been said was most definitely forgotten!!!!
******quote begins*****
The heart forms after the main vessels start to flow in teh fetus. Two
large blood vessels meet and and area of tissue forms around this joining
point. The vessels divide again on the other end.
The vein starts to meander because it is a liquid, subject ot teh
characteristics of water [previously observed].
This meander then begins to turn back on itself. This starts to form the
lobes of the heart.
The heart is at a 23.5 degree angle (the same tilt as the earth's axis) and
has four chambers. The blood first enters the right atrium then moves
through a valve to the right ventrical which is below the atrium. From
there it exits by another valve into a tube called the pulmonary artery
which takes the blood to teh two halves of the lungs. From there the blood
is returned via the pulmonary veins and enters the left atrium, then to the
strong muscular left ventrical. From there it is pushed through yet another
valve into the aorta, the main artery from which all other arteries branch.
After traveling all over the body, the blood returns to the heart in teh
vena cava so that it can once again rest for a brief moment in each chamber
of the heart and be re-osygenated.
Systole and Dyastole
The movement of blood through the heart is caused by muscalar contractions
and relaxations. These are called systole (contraction) adn diastole
(relaxation). WHen the ventrical is in systole and the atrium is in
diastole, the stronger heart beat is heard. This is caused by the forceful
closing of the tricuspid valve between the two chambers. The semilunar
valve (leadin to the pumonary artery or the aorta) opens and the contraction
of the ventrical pushes it out. At the same time more blood is drawn into
the atrium. This beat of the heart is heard as a strong "lubb"
The waker heart beat is caused by the less forceful closing of the semilunar
valve. The ventrical is now in diastole and the atrium is in systole. The
blood is pushed into the ventrical where it can pause for a moemtn before
the cycle continues. This beat is heard as a soft "dubb". It is not as loud
because this valve does not have tendons and muscles attached ot it as the
tricuspid valves do.
****end quote****
Following, was a description of the change in blood circulation at birth
(ductus arteriosus, foramen ovale, etc), a diagram of the main arteries of
the body, a big fat illustration of the heart whcih I copied from my World
Book encyclopedia (yup, I remember these things!!!!), a discussion of the
lymph system, adn a shamefully incompetant page on the immune system (for
which I was scolded by my teacher...)
So, that, Ladies and Gentlemen, is what I was actually TAUGHT in school.
ANything else I've argued concerning the heart I picked up elsewhere....
Cheers,
Angelica G. Hesse
hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n710.3 ---------------
From: lark involved.com (Lark Jarvis)
Subject: Re: Heart in Main Lesson Book
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 22:03:09 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199804070430.VAA17591 lists1.best.com)
At 12:28 AM 4/7/98 -0400, you wrote:
)The heart is at a 23.5 degree angle (the same tilt as the earth's axis)
Hey, that's kinda cool . . . :) Any speculation given as to the
significance of the coincidence, if any?
Just wondering . . .
Lark
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n710.4 ---------------
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 23:30:39 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Michael Kopp wrote,
)It was my son who told me about the pseudoscience he was hearing. He had
)had the beginnings of a regular science education in public school before
)going to a Steiner school, and his dad was a science reporter -- so he knew
)bullshit when he heard it. Good, keen, skeptical lad, my boy.
Same thing with me. My son said "they're teaching us baby science." A
specialist teacher had come in to teach them the chemistry block. About
"the four elements."
-Dan Dugan (at the NAB trade show in Las Vegas)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n710.5 ---------------
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 23:30:41 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Neil Faiman, you wrote,
)It seems clear that the pumpishness or non-pumpishness of the heart is not
)a matter of uniform Waldorf school dogma; but it appears that it may be a
)matter of dogma for some individual teachers or schools. Until someone
)compiles systematic nationwide (or worldwide) statistics of what is taught
)in each individual Waldorf classroom, Michael and Dan will doubtless
)continue to regard the school's of Robert's and my experience as
)anomalies, and Robert and I will doubtless continue to regard Michael's
)and Dan's experience as the anomaly.
Dan Dugan replies,
"The heart is not a pump" is a central dogma of Anthroposophy. What happens
in the Waldorf classroom depends entirely on the teacher. Some of them are
very good, and ignore the Anthroposphical nonsense. But it's a very hard
job creating lesson blocks, and most teachers get their materials from
mentors, verbally and in the form of notes and exemplary copies of lesson
books. That's how the Anthroposophical pseudoscience tradition is carried
on in Waldorf. If they take enrichment courses at Rudolf Steiner or
Sunbridge College, they get Anthroposophical content. If they buy teaching
guides from Anthroposphic presses, they get strange science. Steiner cult
beliefs are pervasive in the Waldorf culture. They're really hard to avoid.
)Meanwhile, if I were contemplating a new Waldorf school today, I would
)probably want to take a good look at some middle school science main
)lesson books first. If my daughter had been taught the pseudo-science
)that Michael reports his children having taught, we probably would have
)been out the door, too.
Excellent advice, Neil. Could you take a look at her 6th grade light and
color lesson book? Is it Newton or Goethe?
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n710.6 ---------------
From: mckay oro.net (David B McKay)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 23:28:40 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Kopp wrote:
))If more than one Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophical (SWA) school
))teacher has told this to his or her students, then it is reasonable to
))wonder how many others do so, surely?
))
))I have said it happened in my school. Are you calling me a liar, Flannery?
)Flannery wrote:
)No. "Liar" is not the first thing that comes to mind when I think of you,
)Michael.
Well, please do tell us then Mr Flannery?! It seems that your response
above is the
standard when you're caught with your pants down and know that what Kopp
and many
others have said/seen/witnessed about this topic/issue can't be refuted!
David McKay
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n710.7 ---------------
From: Robert Flannery (litvas icu.com)
Subject: Re: Heart in Main Lesson Book
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 05:18:02 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199804070430.VAA17591 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199804070504.WAA20058 lists1.best.com)
)At 12:28 AM 4/7/98 -0400, you wrote:
))The heart is at a 23.5 degree angle (the same tilt as the earth's axis)
)
)Hey, that's kinda cool . . . :) Any speculation given as to the
)significance of the coincidence, if any?
)Just wondering . . .
The heart is not a pump, it's a planet!
(sorry, couldn't resist)
Robert Flannery
New York
litvas icu.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n710.8 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: Re: RSC teacher training URL CORRECTION
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 21:20:39 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199804060018.RAA18377 lists1.best.com)
(199804060300.UAA20045 lists1.best.com)
(199804062122.OAA23331 lists1.best.com)
(199804062206.PAA01699 lists1.best.com)
(199804062342.QAA05732 lists1.best.com)
(199804070234.TAA18314 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199804070334.UAA26024 lists1.best.com)
Deby Snell wrote about problems with this URL:
)Ezra Beeman asked for the url for RSC's teacher training course study. I
)gave them
)and decided to try them out myself. I got a 'file not found' message. I
)suggest that
)you go to PLANS web site http://www.waldorfcritics.org , scroll to
)articles and
)go in that way if you have the same trouble I did. (Or perhaps someone
)could point
)out my problem and correct it for everyone..)
)Debra
)
)) Sure,
)) http://www.waldorfcritics.org/articles/RSC_reading_list.html
)) http://www.waldorfcritics.org/articles/RSC_2nd_year_requirements.html
)) Debra
Remember that URL's are case sensitive. RSC must be capitalized. I've fixed
the above GURL's, so they should work double-clickable now, if your emailer
supports GURL's, otherwise, copy and paste to the address window in your
browser.
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n710.9 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: Re: Heart in Main Lesson Book
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 21:24:41 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199804070430.VAA17591 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199804070504.WAA20058 lists1.best.com)
)At 12:28 AM 4/7/98 -0400, you wrote:
))The heart is at a 23.5 degree angle (the same tilt as the earth's axis)
)
)Hey, that's kinda cool . . . :) Any speculation given as to the
)significance of the coincidence, if any?
)Just wondering . . .
)
)Lark
You should ask the English teacher at my former Steiner school; she
probably has an answer similar to the one about Greek dactylic hexameter
being invented because the ancient Greeks knew a relationship between the
number of human heartbeats in a life, the number of human breaths in a
life, and the number of years in a Platonic Year (or precession of the
equinoxes, about 26,000 years).
Come on, new-age kiddies, take your mystical crap to private emails,
please, unless you want to be laughed at here.
Michael Kopp
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n710.10 ---------------
From: Robert Flannery (litvas icu.com)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 05:38:52 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199804070632.XAA01246 lists1.best.com)
)"The heart is not a pump" is a central dogma of Anthroposophy.
No, it's not. It's something Steiner talks about in a few places, but I
had never been privy to a discussion of it until I joined this list. I
wasn't even aware of his views on the subject until then. Anthroposophists
seem able to function quite well, both in and out of waldorf schools,
without a conviction that the heart is not a pump.
)What happens
)in the Waldorf classroom depends entirely on the teacher. Some of them are
)very good, and ignore the Anthroposphical nonsense. But it's a very hard
)job creating lesson blocks, and most teachers get their materials from
)mentors, verbally and in the form of notes and exemplary copies of lesson
)books. That's how the Anthroposophical pseudoscience tradition is carried
)on in Waldorf.
If they get materials from mentors, substandard information like this isn't
passed on. I would guess that the "specialist teacher" who taught your son
was unmentored. I wish there were some way to find this out, conclusively.
If mentored materials led to this, you'd see a lot more of it, frankly.
Robert Flannery
New York
litvas icu.com
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n710 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n711 --------------
001 - Robert Flannery (litvas i - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
002 - Daniel Sabsay (danielsabs - Re: Heart as pump, etc.... & AM talk at SF Waldorf
003 - Michael Kopp (mkopp actri - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
004 - Daniel Sabsay (danielsabs - Re: Heart as pump, etc.... & AM talk at SF Waldorf
005 - Michael Kopp (mkopp actri - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
006 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Waldorf teachers
007 - angelica hesse (hesse96 m - Re: Heart in Main Lesson Book
008 - angelica hesse (hesse96 m - Re: Heart in Main Lesson Book
009 - Robert Flannery (litvas i - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
010 - angelica hesse (hesse96 m - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n711.1 ---------------
From: Robert Flannery (litvas icu.com)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 05:46:02 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199804070730.AAA10009 lists1.best.com)
)))I have said it happened in my school. Are you calling me a liar, Flannery?
))"Liar" is not the first thing that comes to mind when I think of you,
))Michael.
)Well, please do tell us then Mr Flannery?! It seems that your response
)above is the
)standard when you're caught with your pants down and know that what Kopp
)and many
)others have said/seen/witnessed about this topic/issue can't be refuted!
)
)David McKay
Ah, David. Just as Herman can always be counted on for data, you can
always be counted on for dotage.
Since, however, you took the time to ask, I'll let you in on my personal
views on the matter, which have been part of the occult tradition for a
year or two, by now.
Whenever I think of Michael, the first words that come to mind are
"obnoxious" and "bully" (and I don't mean "bully for him"!).
Robert Flannery
New York
litvas icu.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n711.2 ---------------
From: Daniel Sabsay (danielsabsay earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc.... & AM talk at SF Waldorf
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 98 03:31:02 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Robert Flannery (litvas icu.com) wrote )
)Dan Sabsay, do they teach this stuff at the East Bay Waldorf School?
Let's not forget the omnipresent homeopathic "first aid" supply cabinet.
I observed one at the Marin Waldorf when I was there a few months to help
with the few computers they had for their administrators (oh, there was
one for faculty use).
I might add that tonight I attended the anthroposophical medicine talk
given by David Gershan M.D. to a class of AM nurses at the San Francisco
Waldorf School. This talk was open to the public, but mostly attended by
the 20 or so nurses meeting at the school for a week-long class. I am
too disgusted with the nonsense & half-truths presented as though they
were facts to report on it right now, but I can tell you that he assured
the class that all the Waldorf schools relied on AM doctors for school
care.
-- Daniel Sabsay, president
East Bay Skeptics Society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n711.3 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:14:29 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199804070730.AAA10009 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199804070936.CAA13220 lists1.best.com)
Robert Flannery is trolling for flames:
Michael Kopp said:
))))I have said it happened in my school. Are you calling me a liar, Flannery?
Flannery said:
)))"Liar" is not the first thing that comes to mind when I think of you,
)))Michael.
David McKay said:
))Well, please do tell us then Mr Flannery?! It seems that your response
))above is the
))standard when you're caught with your pants down and know that what Kopp
))and many
))others have said/seen/witnessed about this topic/issue can't be refuted!
FLANNERY:
)Ah, David. Just as Herman can always be counted on for data, you can
)always be counted on for dotage.
)
)Since, however, you took the time to ask, I'll let you in on my personal
)views on the matter, which have been part of the occult tradition for a
)year or two, by now.
)
)Whenever I think of Michael, the first words that come to mind are
)"obnoxious" and "bully" (and I don't mean "bully for him"!).
KOPP says:
I don't respond to flame-bait anymore, Flannery. Too much experience with
better fisher-folk than thee.
However, I must say it's a damned good thing you were never in _my_ platoon.
I do hope, however, that I'm obnoxious *enough* when dealing with cheats,
pseuds, mystics, crystal-rubbers, numeralogists, apologists, and defenders
of the Steiner faith. I sometimes feel as if I'm losing my touch when it
comes to them.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n711.4 ---------------
From: Daniel Sabsay (danielsabsay earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc.... & AM talk at SF Waldorf
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 98 04:33:23 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Daniel Sabsay wrote )
)Let's not forget the omnipresent homeopathic "first aid" supply cabinet.
)I observed one at the Marin Waldorf when I was there a few months to help
Whoops, that should have been:
... a few months _ago_ to help ...
-- Daniel Sabsay, president
East Bay Skeptics Society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n711.5 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:43:24 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199804070730.AAA10009 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199804070936.CAA13220 lists1.best.com)
Robert Flannery is trolling for flames again:
Michael Kopp said:
))))I have said it happened in my school. Are you calling me a liar, Flannery?
Flannery said:
)))"Liar" is not the first thing that comes to mind when I think of you,
)))Michael.
David McKay said:
))Well, please do tell us then Mr Flannery?! It seems that your response
))above is the
))standard when you're caught with your pants down and know that what Kopp
))and many
))others have said/seen/witnessed about this topic/issue can't be refuted!
FLANNERY:
)Ah, David. Just as Herman can always be counted on for data, you can
)always be counted on for dotage.
)
)Since, however, you took the time to ask, I'll let you in on my personal
)views on the matter, which have been part of the occult tradition for a
)year or two, by now.
)
)Whenever I think of Michael, the first words that come to mind are
)"obnoxious" and "bully" (and I don't mean "bully for him"!).
KOPP says:
I don't respond to flame-bait anymore, Flannery. Too much experience with
better fisher-folk than thee.
However, I must say it's a damned good thing you were never in _my_ platoon.
I do hope, however, that I'm obnoxious *enough* when dealing with cheats,
pseuds, mystics, crystal-rubbers, numeralogists, apologists, and defenders
of the Steiner faith. I sometimes feel as if I'm losing my touch when it
comes to them.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n711.6 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Waldorf teachers
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 08:28:58 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199804060018.RAA18377 lists1.best.com) (199804060300.UAA20045 lists1.best.com) (199804062122.OAA23331 lists1.best.com) (199804062206.PAA01699 lists1.best.com) (199804062342.QAA05732 lists1.best.com) (199804070234.TAA18314 lists1.best.com)
I get a 404 error on both those urls.
ezra
Debra Snell wrote:
Sure,
) http://www.waldorfcritics.org/articles/rsc_reading_list.html
) http://www.waldorfcritics.org/articles/rsc_2nd_year_requirements.html
) Debra
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n711.7 ---------------
From: angelica hesse (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: Re: Heart in Main Lesson Book
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 11:31:16 -0400 (EDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In-Reply-To: (199804070504.WAA20058 lists1.best.com) from "Lark Jarvis" at Apr 6, 98 10:03:09 pm
BOOK:
) )The heart is at a 23.5 degree angle (the same tilt as the earth's axis)
)
LARK:
) Hey, that's kinda cool . . . :) Any speculation given as to the
) significance of the coincidence, if any?
) Just wondering . . .
NO, not that I recall. But I thought it was rather cool too, especially
when I saw it now, cause I'd forgotten that tidbit....
:-)
ANgelica
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n711.8 ---------------
From: angelica hesse (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: Re: Heart in Main Lesson Book
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 11:45:47 -0400 (EDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In-Reply-To: (199804070924.CAA07853 lists1.best.com) from "Michael Kopp" at Apr 7, 98 09:24:41 pm
) You should ask the English teacher at my former Steiner school; she
) probably has an answer similar to the one about Greek dactylic hexameter
) being invented because the ancient Greeks knew a relationship between the
) number of human heartbeats in a life, the number of human breaths in a
) life, and the number of years in a Platonic Year (or precession of the
) equinoxes, about 26,000 years).
I'm not speculating on the significance of the angle of the heart my
person enterpretation is simply to see it as an indication of the
cohesiveness of the way our world is patterned).
But as to the greek meter, I had always heard it in much simpler terms, that
it had to do with the number of world that could be comfortable spoken on
one breath, without altering the natural breathign rhythm, thereby makign it
possible to recite long epic poems (which bards at the time had to do)
without tiring.....
Angelica
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n711.9 ---------------
From: Robert Flannery (litvas icu.com)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 12:33:01 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199804070632.XAA00991 lists1.best.com)
)Same thing with me. My son said "they're teaching us baby science." A
)specialist teacher had come in to teach them the chemistry block. About
)"the four elements."
)
)-Dan Dugan (at the NAB trade show in Las Vegas)
One quick question, Dan, since I see you're taking care of business. . .
Did your child's experience at SF include "the heart is not a pump" in his
classroom instruction, or was the problem just limited to "the four
elements"?
Robert Flannery
New York
litvas icu.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n711.10 ---------------
From: angelica hesse (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 12:34:46 -0400 (EDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In-Reply-To: (199804061140.EAA27439 lists1.best.com) from "Michael Kopp" at Apr 6, 98 11:41:03 pm
) )Daniel Sabsay wrote:
) )
) )) Nevertheless, only anthroposophy/Waldorf is clinging to this old Steiner
) )) myth [heart is not a pump] for reasons having nothing to do with science.
)
) And Angelica replies:
) )Steiner simply suggested that if one looked at the world, certain things
) )would be evident. It's up to the scientists to prove or disprove this.
)
) KOPP says:
)
) No, Angelica, you've got it wrong. You need to read your Steiner more
) closely. Steiner said he had "knowledge of higher realms" that was revealed
) to him, and that the only way for others to come to it was to use his
) method, which was, essentially, clairvoyance, or looking into the spirit
) world. This method is certainly not one of the tools of the scientists I
) respect. I don't even know if any of the scientists I DON'T respect, like
) the "Anthrosophical Scientists" who have their own mailing list, have
) mastered these techniques of Steiner's.
Not being someone who spends all my spare hours recording perfect quotes to
use as comebacks to anyone and everyone who challenges me, I dont' have an
exact source for this. But I am quite certain I have seen words to the
effect that [paraphrase] in the future, scientists will also show these
ideas to be true [end paraphrase]. Believe me, if I find the source, I will
post it directly! But mostly, I dont' have so much extra time on my hands
to go looking for little sentences like this (I actually have a life to
live), nor am I really that motivated (I don't have enough at stake, here,
perhaps??)
) Again, I suggest you read the archives of this list before prating the
) Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophical (SWA) line. (The easy way to do this is
) use a Web search engine like Alta Vista, which will bring up an entire
) month of Dan Dugan's archives in which your search query appears. After
) this has loaded to your screen, you can use the "find" feature of your
) browser to locate either the same search string or the date specified.)
Forget it. Like I said, I dont' have endless time free. WHat's more, I get
enough negativity for a day out of the current postings. ANy more, and I'd
become a downright nasty person!!! DO you have any idea how many messages
are in those archives? This is an impossible suggestion, and I'm rather
tired of hearing it....List are supposed to be current discussions.
) But it is certainly not up to "the scientists" -- by which I take you to
) mean those of the regular scientific establishment, not the esoteric one
) --to prove or disprove any of Steiner's imaginings. Standard science cannot
) treat of supernaturalism, it can only deal with the natural world (a topic
) discussed many times on this list in the last two years).
Which perhaps indicates a severe limitation of current scientific
methodology??? And why can it only deal of the natural world. Is it
because we human beings, as researches, are not objective enough to research
anythign else?
) It is up to those who espouse concepts as truths to provide the proofs:
) something SWA has not ever been able to do in any other way than the
) mystical guru-trick of "looking at the world". Of course people come to
) believe that the guru's fantasies are real; how else can they persuade
) themselves that they have invested in something worthwhile? To question is
) to make a fool of oneself.
What is mystical about "looking at the world" Istn' taht exactly what
science does?
As far as questioning goes, in essence, that is what
anthroposophy is supposed to be. It's basically about thinking, very
carefully and consistently, and about asking, but not jumping to
conslusions. It is precisely the opposite of blind faith. I don't think
even steiner would have wanted to be idolized, and followed blindly:
"It must be emphasised that higher knowledge is not concerned with the
veneration of persons, but the veneration fo truth adn knowledge."
[from Knowledge of Higher Worlds, August 1923 edition, translated by Metaxa,
published by Putnam's: London & New York; page 7]
Hey look everybody, I can do quotes too!!!!! Yayy!!!! ;-)
ANything else, anything that's blind and dogmatic is not waht anthro is
really about. We see a lot of it today, but we see the same thing in
science, psychology, education everywhere, and every religion I've ever come
in contact with. Let's chalk that up to human weakness, and not attribute
is as being representative of what Anthro is really about. Joel has some
really good stuff on his webpage about this. (thanks joel, I checked it out
the other day, and foudn it very interesting. Really got me thinking).
) Marinelli's pseudo-science is an example of SWA trying to "prove" one of
) Steiner's fantasies. (Marinelli is an obviously-dedicated Steiner fan.) By
) the standards of the mainstream scientific method his work is shonky and
) cannot be replicated, which is one of the tenets of science. A theory
) cannot be accepted unless it can be proved by more than one worker. (What
) scientific method did they teach you at SWA school, Angelica: one that
) leads you to ask "why" [causation] about natural phenomena?)
I unfortunately dont' have the article handy (I shoudl go ILL it from my
library). Could you clarify what makes the study apparently
un-replicatable? Thanks.
As for sciene method. I've always been taught standard method (don't assume
causation, make experiments duplicatable, etc). "Why" is a question taht
always comes from me, not my schooling. I'm not satisfied with just "what",
I want to know why. If this can be attributed to WE, it's probably simply
that exploration adn curiosity and interest in teh world were fostered.
WHen I see an abominable story on the news, should I jsut accept teh
attrocity as 'human nature'? I would hope not. And I dont'. I always ask,
with real sadness, "WHY?"
) Same with water memory, plants responding to the Moon and planets, and
) Marinelli's latest foray, reported in "Frontier Perspectives", the journal
) of the "Centre for Frontier Science" (read: way-out pseudo-science).
YOu know, there was a day when Frontier was interpreted as 'cutting edge'.
My dictionary defines it as 2b: the farthermost limits of knowledge or
achievement in a particular subject; c: a line of division between different
or opposed things [i.e. the cutting? edge....] and d: a new field for
exploitative or developmental activity. MERIAM WEBSTER COLLEGIATE
DICTIONARY, 10TH EDITION.
YOur interpretation seems somewhat inacurate, given this meaning.
) Ralph Marinelli, 1; Branko Furst, 2; Hoyte van der Zee,3;
) Andrew McGinn,4; William Marinelli, 5
) of Minnesota, MN
)
) Note that no academic qualifications are listed for any of these people.
) None of them except William Marinelli are mentioned on the Internet.
Well, I know for a fact that Branko Furst is an MD; I've met him personally.
Angelica
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n711 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n712 --------------
001 - snell netshel.net - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
002 - snell netshel.net - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
003 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Heart in Main Lesson Book
004 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Chronology
005 - lark involved.com (Lark J - Re: Heart in Main Lesson Book
006 - Daniel Sabsay (danielsabs - Re: Heart as pump, etc.... (religious schisms)
007 - snell netshel.net - Re: Heart in Main Lesson Book
008 - Robert Flannery (litvas i - Mentors
009 - Michael Kopp (mkopp actri - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
010 - Herman de Tollenaere (her - Re: Racism
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n712.1 ---------------
From: snell netshel.net
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:17:25 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199804070730.AAA10009 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199804070936.CAA13220 lists1.best.com)
Robert Flannery writes,
)Whenever I think of Michael, the first words that come to mind are
)"obnoxious" and "bully" (and I don't mean "bully for him"!).
)
Funny how the table looks from different angles. From where I sit, Robert,
you look like a cult apologist. :+)
Debra
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n712.2 ---------------
From: snell netshel.net
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:14:49 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199804070632.XAA01246 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199804070928.CAA09834 lists1.best.com)
)If they get materials from mentors, substandard information like this isn't
)passed on. I would guess that the "specialist teacher" who taught your son
)was unmentored. I wish there were some way to find this out, conclusively.
)
)If mentored materials led to this, you'd see a lot more of it, frankly.
)
Heck, at our WE school my son's teacher didn't like the review from her
mentor teacher. She demanded a new one - of her own choosing! Tell me, what
is the criteria for a mentor teacher?
Debra
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n712.3 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Heart in Main Lesson Book
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 10:59:51 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199804070430.VAA17591 lists1.best.com) (199804070924.CAA07853 lists1.best.com)
Michael Kopp wrote:
) You should ask the English teacher at my former Steiner school; she
) probably has an answer similar to the one about Greek dactylic hexameter
) being invented because the ancient Greeks knew a relationship between the
) number of human heartbeats in a life, the number of human breaths in a
) life, and the number of years in a Platonic Year (or precession of the
) equinoxes, about 26,000 years).
I recollect something of A.'s rationalization of hexameter's role in oral
tradition. Anyone know if the Kalevala (sic?) was written in this measure?
)
)
) Come on, new-age kiddies, take your mystical crap to private emails,
) please, unless you want to be laughed at here.
Mastercard and VISA take the ratio crap very seriously, as do architects and
anybody with any asthetic sense. The so called golden ratio, is one of a
number of "natural ratios" (Fibonaci series for example), but the greeks were
obsessed with it. Applying it to the human body, although ad hoc in this day
and age, was very real for them. To stand on the shoulders of giants, and
see further, such an exercise is insightfull.ezra
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n712.4 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Chronology
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 10:51:55 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199804070632.XAA01246 lists1.best.com)
A few questions to shed some light on the relationship of Anthroposophy and
WE. Could someone please tell me a few simple things like when Steiner was
born, when he died, when the Waldorf cigar company contracted him to formulate
their educational curriculum, when the seminal works of Anthroposophy were
written and lastly, when the Nazi's outlawed the Waldorf schools.
When the issue of dogma is raised in terms of the Anthroposophical movement, I
often wonder how relevent it truly is to WE because it always seemed peripheral
rather than central to my experience. I am certain that Waldorf, a very
successfull company at the time, did not hire Steiner to conceive a remarkable
education for them because he was an Anthroposophist, or a visionary. Could
you see AT&T, IBM or GM doing something similiar? The reason's he was hired
are now in the realm of speculation, but there are a few that are safe to
dismiss. This company could afford the very best.
I was traveling last summer and read in some English language newspaper about a
book that asserts that Goethe was in fact gay. Anyone familiar with this
book? It seemed to be quite controversial, especially in Germnay where Goethe
is still on something of a pedastal. From the by line I don't know if I am
ready to buy the thesis, but it certainly wouldn't suprise me either. I think
it must be as shocking to the German establishment as say Lord Keynes is to the
UK.
Ezra
Dan Dugan wrote:
) "The heart is not a pump" is a central dogma of Anthroposophy. What happens
) in the Waldorf classroom depends entirely on the teacher. Some of them are
) very good, and ignore the Anthroposphical nonsense. But it's a very hard
) job creating lesson blocks, and most teachers get their materials from
) mentors, verbally and in the form of notes and exemplary copies of lesson
) books. That's how the Anthroposophical pseudoscience tradition is carried
) on in Waldorf. If they take enrichment courses at Rudolf Steiner or
) Sunbridge College, they get Anthroposophical content. If they buy teaching
) guides from Anthroposphic presses, they get strange science. Steiner cult
) beliefs are pervasive in the Waldorf culture. They're really hard to avoid.
)
) )Meanwhile, if I were contemplating a new Waldorf school today, I would
) )probably want to take a good look at some middle school science main
) )lesson books first. If my daughter had been taught the pseudo-science
) )that Michael reports his children having taught, we probably would have
) )been out the door, too.
)
) Excellent advice, Neil. Could you take a look at her 6th grade light and
) color lesson book? Is it Newton or Goethe?
)
) -Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n712.5 ---------------
From: lark involved.com (Lark Jarvis)
Subject: Re: Heart in Main Lesson Book
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 11:10:28 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199804070504.WAA20058 lists1.best.com)
(199804070430.VAA17591 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199804070924.CAA07853 lists1.best.com)
At 09:24 PM 4/7/98 +1200, you wrote:
))At 12:28 AM 4/7/98 -0400, you wrote:
)))The heart is at a 23.5 degree angle (the same tilt as the earth's axis)
))
))Hey, that's kinda cool . . . :) Any speculation given as to the
))significance of the coincidence, if any?
))Just wondering . . .
))
))Lark
)
)
)You should ask the English teacher at my former Steiner school; she
)probably has an answer similar to the one about Greek dactylic hexameter
)being invented because the ancient Greeks knew a relationship between the
)number of human heartbeats in a life, the number of human breaths in a
)life, and the number of years in a Platonic Year (or precession of the
)equinoxes, about 26,000 years).
)
)Come on, new-age kiddies, take your mystical crap to private emails,
)please, unless you want to be laughed at here.
)
)Michael Kopp
)
)
Sorry. No need to get snippy--that was an honest question. (Hmmmm--I have
"natural curiosity," and my spelling and punctuation aren't bad . . . all
that, and from a public education, no less! ;) . . . Anyway . . . as for
the "heart is not a pump" controversy (spanning, geez, for what, the last
week, almost? Do you people not have lives???), I have NO clue what the
"sacred texts" say on the subject, or what's actually preached, but I would
certainly buy the idea that the heart is not JUST a pump. Maybe that's
what Steiner meant--who knows.
For the record, physio-emotional systems all over the world ascribe certain
very consistent colors and emotions to the heart *chakra*--maybe that's
what Steiner was getting at. Who knows. Who cares. That's an idea to be
*kinesthetically experienced*, not debated!
I can only hope that Waldorf education in general is not as idea-addicted
as this list seems to be . . . (Awfully ironic that Goethe had some very
pointed things to say about Germans in particular, and "idea addiction" as
a national problem . . . Hmmm. Take *that* idea wherever it seems to lead .
. .)
Personally, I think (with only very rudimentary knowledge, here, which
seems to be somewhat the same as many actual Waldorf parents have . . . )
that Rudolf Steiner was ahead of his time in many ways, and had some nice
antidotes to typically brutal Germanic childrearing practices of the time.
As for how his ideas play out in real life NOW, I have no clue.
BUT, I will relate something that a friend of mine told me a few days ago.
I was discussing with her my toying with the idea of Waldorf teacher
training, or possibly a sojourn in a Camphill village to work on my German
fluency, etc. I related the controversy going on on this list, and we
discussed the arcane, ethereal quality of the "scene" in general, and my
friend said, "Whatever. I just can't forget what those kids looked like
when we went to observe that Waldorf kindergarten back in college. Those
were not HAPPY kids. They were well-behaved, well-taken-care-of, and
obviously upper middle class, but they did not look HAPPY. There was some
unnameable spontaneity missing. It was creepy. There was no discernable
*harmful* ideology being communicated, but clearly SOME ideology was,
because something very vital and typically childlike seemed to be missing
from those kids. They looked misersable"
Now, having been exposed to quite a few religious addicts in my youth
(religious addicts, idealogues, etc etc--same thing . . . ), I tend to take
the gist of my friend's impressions very seriously. Come to think of it,
she's right. And that matters to me much, much more than any arcane debate
about what any dead Austrian said or didn't say, or really, even, what's
thrown into science classes as "added gravy" . . . .
Lark Jarvis, LMT
Portland, OR
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n712.6 ---------------
From: Daniel Sabsay (danielsabsay earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc.... (religious schisms)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 98 11:47:44 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Angelica Hesse (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu) writes )
)YOu know, there was a day when Frontier was interpreted as 'cutting edge'.
)My dictionary defines it as 2b: the farthermost limits of knowledge or
)achievement in a particular subject; c: a line of division between different
)or opposed things [i.e. the cutting? edge....] and d: a new field for
)exploitative or developmental activity. MERIAM WEBSTER COLLEGIATE
)DICTIONARY, 10TH EDITION.
)YOur interpretation seems somewhat inacurate, given this meaning.
You know, there was a day when people judged a book by its content. The
ability to choose an attractive name (e.g., "spiritual science") does not
imply quality, judgement or sanity.
The nature of a cult is that its structure precludes rejecting the
founder's premises. A person whose insight via "spiritual science"
disconfirms Saint Rudy will be denounced as errant, or excommunicated.
This is the nature of subjective "investigation", and leads to religious
schisms and holy wars.
Anthroposophy will never be able to rid itself of "the heart is not a
pump" because nobody except Saint Rudy has the authority to change the
scriptures (e.g., the "four lectures" or the "ten lectures").
-- Daniel Sabsay, president
East Bay Skeptics Society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n712.7 ---------------
From: snell netshel.net
Subject: Re: Heart in Main Lesson Book
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 12:37:00 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199804070924.CAA07853 lists1.best.com)
(199804070504.WAA20058 lists1.best.com)
(199804070430.VAA17591 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199804071816.LAA03835 lists1.best.com)
, "Whatever. I just can't forget what those kids looked like
)when we went to observe that Waldorf kindergarten back in college. Those
)were not HAPPY kids. They were well-behaved, well-taken-care-of, and
)obviously upper middle class, but they did not look HAPPY. There was some
)unnameable spontaneity missing. It was creepy. There was no discernable
)*harmful* ideology being communicated, but clearly SOME ideology was,
)because something very vital and typically childlike seemed to be missing
)from those kids. They looked misersable"
My son _was_ miserable, butI could not hear that. His kindergarten class
was very unhealthy. I finally removed him from the class and placed him in
another home-based Waldorf kindergarten. His 2nd Waldorf teacher was not a
typical one. She was far more direct in her instructional style. Max was
happier there, but still saw little value in what he was doing. I kept
thinking that _he_ would come around. It was _me_ who finally came around.
I have given up on choosing his educational path. He has done a far better
job than I have. He is in public school's GATE program, after initiating a
few meetings with his principal where he insisted on a more challenging
curriculum. He says, "I _have_ to get a good education, Mom. I want to go
to a good college so that I may get a good job."
OTOH, my oldest son was pretty happy in WE. He was not the academic type.
Now in 7th grade, he's waded through two years of tutoring to catch up.
Half of his 5th grade class was not even reading yet (and he was one..) He
now feels that Waldorf wasted his time educationally. He felt like the
knowledge he does have [from Waldorf] wasn't as valuable as it should have
been. Still, I am not sorry about his WE years. He bonded with good friends
- for him an essential necessity coming from his particular background
(adopted at two yrs., we were his seventh home, diagnosed with Attachment
Disorder). There was a tremendous amount of shaming on behalf of the
teachers as he got older. ("Why is it that you are different from _all_ of
the other children, Derek?") Leaving after 5th grade was good timing,
because we escaped most of that. The fact that almost every child left with
him was certainly a huge bonus. The teacher that took the kids had a class
full of children who were academically behind, so he did not have to deal
with the humiliation of being the only one that didn't know what was going
on in the classroom. Two years later, their teacher says the class is still
behind, but a great group of kids..
Debra
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n712.8 ---------------
From: Robert Flannery (litvas icu.com)
Subject: Mentors
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:58:17 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199804070928.CAA09834 lists1.best.com)
(199804070632.XAA01246 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199804071745.KAA22871 lists1.best.com)
)Heck, at our WE school my son's teacher didn't like the review from her
)mentor teacher. She demanded a new one - of her own choosing! Tell me, what
)is the criteria for a mentor teacher?
It will vary from school to school. In an established school, a mentor
will be assigned to a new teacher from within the school. It would
normally be someone holding the same position (class teacher, or subject
teacher, or specialist). It would likely be the most experienced person
available.
The situation is slightly different in a smaller or younger school, where
there may not be enough experience on the faculty to provide mentoring, or
it may be that experienced teachers in pioneer schools are stretched too
thin to do much mentoring--they often have lots to do with the day-to-day
operations.
In a situation like this, a mentor is found by looking outside, generally
in an established school, as close as possible geographically.
I even know of one friend who was mentored for a while by an experienced
public school teacher.
Robert Flannery
New York
litvas icu.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n712.9 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 07:50:13 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199804061140.EAA27439 lists1.best.com) from "Michael Kopp" at
Apr 6, 98 11:41:03 pm
In-Reply-To: (199804071637.JAA26223 lists1.best.com)
Angelica Hesse quoted Michael Kopp, on the pseudo-science of Ralph
Marinelli's "heart is not a pump" "research", published in "Frontier
Perspectives", the journal of the "Center for Frontier Research at Temple
University":
)) Ralph Marinelli, 1; Branko Furst, 2; Hoyte van der Zee,3;
)) Andrew McGinn,4; William Marinelli, 5
)) of Minnesota, MN
))
)) Note that no academic qualifications are listed for any of these people.
)) None of them except William Marinelli are mentioned on the Internet.
)
)Well, I know for a fact that Branko Furst is an MD; I've met him personally.
)
)Angelica
KOPP says:
Yes, and the William Marinelli at the University of Minnesota is also an MD.
But in the real world of science (not the esoteric world inhabited by
Marinelli and legions of others inspired by the mumbo-jumbo of Rudolf
Steiner and other "seers") medical doctors do not do scientific research
without other qualifications.
They may participate in studies, they may do statistical correlations based
on their cases, they may write anecdotal papers about various treatments
they have tried and the artistic aspects of doctoring.
But unless they study and qualify in some scientific discipline (usually
after their MD; science study before an MD rarely qualifies) and achieve a
standard qualification for doing science (MA or PhD) they don't get to do
"real" science.
I have a friend in Switzerland who is a very good MD, but has no scientific
credentials. He is researching how mothers' thinking about making their
sick babies well affects the outcome, and has many anecdotes about such
"miracles".
He is working with many qualified scientists. But his take on the matter is
that
there is something more at work in these "miracles" than can be
scientifically elucidated. His take is that there is something spiritual.
His early education was in Waldorf schools.
How does he reconcile spiritualism with science? He doesn't try. How can
that benefit all those doctors who aren't spiritualists? He doesn't know.
How can these "miracles" be quantified and explained so that others can
understand them according to science? He does't think they can.
So we're left with a medical ART, not medical science. Fine. Hope it works.
But what about all those parents who are rationalists? Should mothers
abandon reason and simply try to think their babies well? Or should they go
whole hog and engage mysticism of any sort (crystal rubbers, for instance)?
That's fine with me, and if they think it works, that's fine too. But what
about the line between the parents' responsibilities and the rights of the
child to the best care available? What if the mother says she doesn't want
scientific medicine, but will use ancient American Indian rituals instead?
We are headed back into a dark age of superstition, and the credulousness
of those people educated by spiritualists (Steiner/ Waldorf/
Anthroposophical types are our interest here, but they ain't the only weird
ones) is leading the way. The loss of faith in science is a direct result
of the failure of education in science and the failure of scientists to
realise how important is the explanation of science to non-scientists, and
their estrangement from the public at large. But this is aided by our
popular entertainment and media culture, which thrives on fantasy and
unreason.
Everything that Angelica Hesse writes is coloured by her faith in Saint
Rudolf Steiner and his Anthroposophical method. It is she whose mind is not
open, not the minds of the skeptics and rationalists here.
I have often said that I am prepared to accept anything as fact which can
be shown to me. Spiritualist mumbo jumbo cannot be shown to be real,
therefore I reject it as a class of phenomena which arises out of the
depths of the human psyche but which is not tempered by reason.
Before we perfected reason we were a superstitious species, as we rose from
the primordial slime with awe at the unreachable, therefore unexplainable,
stars above. Now we can reach the stars -- with science -- and we no longer
need superstition. But it dies hard, and those who want to perpetuate it do
real damage to young minds, whether they formally teach it in the classroom
or not.
The question is open as to whether our species will now reject science and
reason and return to baying at the moon, or whether rationalists will have
caught the trend in time to reverse it. This list is part of the fight for
reason over superstition. If Angelica Hesse can't be bothered to read the
archives of this list, what can she be bothered with actually studying,
with the tools of reason?
Will she just go on maundering and wondering, with others like Lark Jarvis
and Ezra Beeman, at the "cohesiveness of the way our world is patterned" in
such things as dactylic hexameter and the Platonic year, and the
inclination of the Earth's axis and the angle at which the human heart is
oriented?
It doesn't lool promising for Waldorf graduates.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n712.10 ---------------
From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Re: Racism
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 22:18:44 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 04:16 PM 6/4/98 -0700, Ezra Beeman wrote:
)With the notable exception of the Afrikaaners, Dutch society is recognized
worldwide
)as progressive.
I would say there are 'progressives' and 'conservatives' in all countries in
the world.
)I don't understand how such a school
[presumably, Ezra means the The Hague Waldorf school as described in Trouw
daily]
)could operate in such a
)community without at least a tacit approval.
Until recent publicity, few outsiders to Waldorf education knew much about
it; including lessons in Rassenkunde (racial ethnography). These lessons
came as a surprise to many parents concerned.
)Am I to believe that this kind of thinking flourishes in Dutch communities?
Racist extreme Rightist parties, similar to the Afrikaner Weerstands
Beweging in South Africa, like the (innocent sounding name!)
Centrumdemocraten and Nederlands Blok won about 4% of the vote (about 80
local council seats) in local elections in 1994. At the recent 1998 local
elections, they lost heavily: now both Centrumdemocraten and Nederlands Blok
have just one local seat each. This does not mean, of course, that all
racism, a problem in many countries, is gone. Critics point, eg, at policy
towards 'illegal immigrants'.
)Herman de Tollenaere wrote:
)
)) Just one main lesson book?? I wish that was right. Presumably, Robert means
)) the Waldorf school in Zutphen, described by Toos Jeurissen in her brochure
)) Uit de Vrije School Geklapt. However, there are more cases, like in Leiden;
)) and The Hague, as described by Edwin Kreulen (an ex-Waldorf student), the
)) editor for education, in the daily Trouw, which I posted to this list a few
)) months ago; and am re-posting here for those who missed it. Kreulen also
)) wrote that his case was not an isolated case from the 80s past.
))
)) No, it was definitely not just one teachers's 'racial stereotyping'. Max
)) Stibbe, founder of Waldorf education in The Netherlands (and in South
)) Africa), wrote extensively about the subject Rassenkunde (racial
)) ethnography), based on Steiner's ideas on 'races', in the Waldorf
)) curriculum, in Vrije Opvoedkunst, the Dutch Waldorf review.
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n712 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n713 --------------
001 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
002 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Heart in Main Lesson Book
003 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Heart as pump, etc.... (religious schisms)
004 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
005 - Daniel Sabsay (danielsabs - Re: Heart as pump, etc.... (religious schisms)
006 - lark involved.com (Lark J - Re: Heart in Main Lesson Book
007 - snell netshel.net - Max's kindergarten
008 - Michael Kopp (mkopp actri - Re: Heart in Main Lesson Book
009 - "Danielg" (danielg nectar - Free hallucinogenic drugs in your mailbox, (and make $$$ while
010 - "David E. Gower" (dgower - Re: Free hallucinogenic drugs in your mailbox, (and make $$$
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n713.1 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 13:21:01 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199804071637.JAA26223 lists1.best.com)
angelica hesse wrote:
) Which perhaps indicates a severe limitation of current scientific
) methodology??? And why can it only deal of the natural world. Is it
) because we human beings, as researches, are not objective enough to research
) anythign else?
I think you are way off base. I see that you preface your response with perhaps,
but your conclusions are reckless. Your second sentence is meaningless, like
asking why math is purely quantitative. The scientific method is a formalized
process for assesing phenomena. I think that the conceptual framework is mighty
powerfull and reflects the nature it seeks to explain. Survival of the fittest is
essentially an exercise in the scientific method (work with me here). Traits that
are not easily passed along, nor proven to be usefull, are not incorporated into
the organism. The measure of usefulleness is not static, but the process is.
Random tangential thought.
) As for sciene method. I've always been taught standard method (don't assume
) causation, make experiments duplicatable, etc). "Why" is a question taht
) always comes from me, not my schooling.
All apologies A. but I have thought long and hard about this and I conclude that
why is always irrelevent and usually downright harmfull. How is a much more
usefull description that is not fraught with the metaphysics of why. Try it out.
Everytime you seek explanation, instead of posing why does it happen, try posing
how does it happen. I'll bet you lead a happier and more productive life.(This is
all tongue in cheek mind you)
Seriously, there is something about why as a description that invites
interpretation.
) I'm not satisfied with just "what",
) I want to know why. If this can be attributed to WE, it's probably simply
) that exploration adn curiosity and interest in teh world were fostered.
How is not only as interesting as why, it is more relevent.
) WHen I see an abominable story on the news, should I jsut accept teh
) attrocity as 'human nature'? I would hope not. And I dont'. I always ask,
) with real sadness, "WHY?"
Stop reading the paper, Oppenheimer did, exposing oneself to media product is
masochistic. The front page of the WSJ is my idea of how to write about the
news. (please don't bother to comment)
ezra
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n713.2 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Heart in Main Lesson Book
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 13:38:09 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199804070924.CAA07853 lists1.best.com)
(199804070504.WAA20058 lists1.best.com)
(199804070430.VAA17591 lists1.best.com) (199804071937.MAA11915 lists1.best.com)
) , "Whatever. I just can't forget what those kids looked like
) )when we went to observe that Waldorf kindergarten back in college. Those
) )were not HAPPY kids. They were well-behaved, well-taken-care-of, and
) )obviously upper middle class, but they did not look HAPPY.
Some background please, what school did you visit, why were you visiting and
some reasoning behind your conclusion. Saying something is obvious is not a
real compelling statement to the skeptical mind.
) There was some
) )unnameable spontaneity missing. It was creepy. There was no discernable
) )*harmful* ideology being communicated, but clearly SOME ideology was,
) )because something very vital and typically childlike seemed to be missing
) )from those kids. They looked misersable"
Maybe they had Legionaires disease, maybe they were Scientologists, maybe it's
a conspiracy. Sometimes a conspiracy is true, but most of the time the
conspirator is paranoid.
) My son _was_ miserable, butI could not hear that. His kindergarten class
) was very unhealthy.
Could you please qualify this statement (briefly)?
Ezra
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n713.3 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc.... (religious schisms)
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 13:42:44 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199804071848.LAA02118 lists1.best.com)
) The nature of a cult is that its structure precludes rejecting the
) founder's premises. A person whose insight via "spiritual science"
) disconfirms Saint Rudy will be denounced as errant, or excommunicated.
) This is the nature of subjective "investigation", and leads to religious
) schisms and holy wars.
This is the nature of ANY ideology (and everything is based on ideology of one
form or another), be it Anthros, Humanists, Skeptics, Anabaptists. Rejecting
one's premises requires a metaphysical worldview. Otherwise it leads to
nihilism.
) -- Daniel Sabsay, president
) East Bay Skeptics Society
ezra
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n713.4 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 13:58:01 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199804061140.EAA27439 lists1.best.com) from "Michael Kopp" at
Apr 6, 98 11:41:03 pm (199804071949.MAA23141 lists1.best.com)
) I have often said that I am prepared to accept anything as fact which can
) be shown to me. Spiritualist mumbo jumbo cannot be shown to be real,
) therefore I reject it as a class of phenomena which arises out of the
) depths of the human psyche but which is not tempered by reason.
Sounds like your begging the question.
)
)
) Before we perfected reason we were a superstitious species, as we rose from
) the primordial slime with awe at the unreachable, therefore unexplainable,
) stars above.
Nice to know we perfected reason. Can you please describe this perfected reason?
In who or what group and in what tome can it be found? There is alot of hubris
in these passages.
) Now we can reach the stars -- with science -- and we no longer
) need superstition. But it dies hard, and those who want to perpetuate it do
) real damage to young minds, whether they formally teach it in the classroom
) or not.
)
) The question is open as to whether our species will now reject science and
) reason and return to baying at the moon, or whether rationalists will have
) caught the trend in time to reverse it.
Last I checked, the rationalists died with Hegel (or was it Marx), but let's not
forget the empiricists or logical positivists that followed.
) Will she just go on maundering and wondering, with others like Lark Jarvis
) and Ezra Beeman, at the "cohesiveness of the way our world is patterned" in
) such things as dactylic hexameter and the Platonic year, and the
) inclination of the Earth's axis and the angle at which the human heart is
) oriented?
)
) It doesn't lool promising for Waldorf graduates.
I know your being rhetorical, but I don't see anything in the archive or
otherwise to support maundering or wondering on my part? As for promise, what
are your credentials in logic, reason or the scientific method. Surely you sport
quite a few.ezra
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n713.5 ---------------
From: Daniel Sabsay (danielsabsay earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc.... (religious schisms)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 98 18:20:34 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Daniel wrote ))
)) The nature of a cult is that its structure precludes rejecting the
)) founder's premises. A person whose insight via "spiritual science"
)) disconfirms Saint Rudy will be denounced as errant, or excommunicated.
)) This is the nature of subjective "investigation", and leads to religious
)) schisms and holy wars.
And Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org) rejoined )
)This is the nature of ANY ideology (and everything is based on ideology of one
)form or another), be it Anthros, Humanists, Skeptics, Anabaptists. Rejecting
)one's premises requires a metaphysical worldview. Otherwise it leads to
)nihilism.
But recently you [Ezra] also said )
)The scientific method is a formalized process for assesing phenomena. I think
)that the conceptual framework is mighty powerfull and reflects the nature it
)seeks to explain. Survival of the fittest is essentially an exercise in the
)scientific method (work with me here). Traits that are not easily passed
)along, nor proven to be usefull, are not incorporated into the organism. The
)measure of usefulleness is not static, but the process is.
So, do I take it that you don't include the scientific method in your
list of ideologies?
-- Daniel Sabsay, president
East Bay Skeptics Society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n713.6 ---------------
From: lark involved.com (Lark Jarvis)
Subject: Re: Heart in Main Lesson Book
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 19:24:29 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199804070924.CAA07853 lists1.best.com)
(199804070504.WAA20058 lists1.best.com)
(199804070430.VAA17591 lists1.best.com)
(199804071937.MAA11915 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199804072038.NAA12635 lists1.best.com)
At 01:38 PM 4/7/98 -0700, you wrote:
)
)
)) , "Whatever. I just can't forget what those kids looked like
)) )when we went to observe that Waldorf kindergarten back in college. Those
)) )were not HAPPY kids. They were well-behaved, well-taken-care-of, and
)) )obviously upper middle class, but they did not look HAPPY.
)
)Some background please, what school did you visit,
The Austin Waldorf School, Dripping Springs, TX (near Austin).
why were you visiting
I was participating in an open house because I was exploring the idea of
teacher training, and was curious, because my saxophone professor in
college had sent his son to the Austin Waldorf School because he liked the
way that arts were integrated into the curriculum. So, I was among a group
of positively disposed prospective parents who were spending the morning
exploring the place.
and
)some reasoning behind your conclusion.
The children seemed rather dazed--somewhat like sheep. None of the usual
high-spirited mischief that you would expect to find in a kindergarten
class. Perhaps they knew that they were "performing," but we also observed
returned later and watched them making bread, and were relatively
unobtrusive about it. It seemed, in retrospect, as if they were
participating in an elaborate *ritual*, and they knew it.
Saying something is obvious is not a
)real compelling statement to the skeptical mind.
Actually, it wasn't my *mind* that this particular memory engaged.
Granted, no two Waldorf kindergarten teachers are alike, but as is my
understanding, the curriculum will be the same no matter where you are.
Lark
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n713.7 ---------------
From: snell netshel.net
Subject: Max's kindergarten
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 22:38:04 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199804070924.CAA07853 lists1.best.com)
(199804070504.WAA20058 lists1.best.com)
(199804070430.VAA17591 lists1.best.com)
(199804071937.MAA11915 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199804072038.NAA12635 lists1.best.com)
I wrote,
)) My son _was_ miserable, but I could not hear that. His kindergarten class
)) was very unhealthy.
)
)Could you please qualify this statement (briefly)?
Well, I'll spare you the sobbing teacher in the parking lot stories...
The summer we enrolled Max for fall, the school hired two additional
Waldorf teachers (at the last minute). They did not have the enrollment to
support the teachers. The school had a waiting list in the spring, but by
the time two more Waldorf teachers were hired, the waiting list was gone.
Some of the [two year kindergarten] families had pulled out of the school
to enroll their children in a home based Waldorf kindergarten. Seems the
home based kindergarten teacher had worked at the school for 3 months in
the spring when the _regular_ Waldorf kindergarten teacher became ill.
Parents and children fell in love with her. (She applied for one of the
kindergarten openings but was passed over by the faculty). When Julie was
not hired, she started her own kindergarten out of her home, due to the
many requests of the families. Those of us who didn't know the story
enrolled our children at the school, expecting a full kindergarten
classroom with a desirable teacher.
Max's kindergarten teacher [that the faculty chose _over_ their substitute
from the previous year] was fresh out of RSC. She had a total of four kids
in her class. It just didn't work for Max. He loathed school and began to
hide under the table to get away from the children who hit him and stole
his lunch. The day he pretended to be sleeping all day was the day I pulled
him out. The teacher could not control the other three kids and Max is
pretty mellow. We placed Max in the kindergarten program whose teacher was
rejected by the faculty. Max liked his new teacher very much, and the
children were great and normal kids. He felt safe there. Even as president
of PLANS, we continue to be great friends. (Now living out of town, she
comes clawing at my door at ungodly hours, looking for a place to sleep.)
Eventually the teacher from the was let go. She has not taught in a Waldorf
school since. (She seemed to have a few of her own problems..)
Debra
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n713.8 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: Re: Heart in Main Lesson Book
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 10:20:58 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199804070924.CAA07853 lists1.best.com)
(199804070504.WAA20058 lists1.best.com)
(199804070430.VAA17591 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199804071816.LAA03835 lists1.best.com)
Lark Jarvis writes:
)At 09:24 PM 4/7/98 +1200, you wrote:
)))At 12:28 AM 4/7/98 -0400, you wrote:
))))The heart is at a 23.5 degree angle (the same tilt as the earth's axis)
)))
)))Hey, that's kinda cool . . . :) Any speculation given as to the
)))significance of the coincidence, if any?
)))Just wondering . . .
)))
)))Lark
))
))
))You should ask the English teacher at my former Steiner school; she
))probably has an answer similar to the one about Greek dactylic hexameter
))being invented because the ancient Greeks knew a relationship between the
))number of human heartbeats in a life, the number of human breaths in a
))life, and the number of years in a Platonic Year (or precession of the
))equinoxes, about 26,000 years).
))
))Come on, new-age kiddies, take your mystical crap to private emails,
))please, unless you want to be laughed at here.
))
))Michael Kopp
))
))
)Sorry. No need to get snippy--that was an honest question. (Hmmmm--I have
)"natural curiosity," and my spelling and punctuation aren't bad . . . all
)that, and from a public education, no less! ;) . . . Anyway . . . as for
)the "heart is not a pump" controversy (spanning, geez, for what, the last
)week, almost? Do you people not have lives???), I have NO clue what the
)"sacred texts" say on the subject, or what's actually preached, but I would
)certainly buy the idea that the heart is not JUST a pump. Maybe that's
)what Steiner meant--who knows.
KOPP says:
Here's a clue to why new-agers are so gullible: Lark says "...I would
certainly buy the idea that the heart is nor JUST a pump. Maybe that's what
Steiner meant--who knows."
Lark will "BUY" an assertion, without thinking and testing it.
Lark says "maybe" that's what Steiner meant, and "who knows".
Translation: who cares what he meant, why bother trying to figure it out or
challenge his thinking and statements? If the mumbo jumbo fits your
uneducated, uncritical prejudices and predilections towards the airy-fairy,
that's "cool", go with it, baby.
JARVIS:
)For the record, physio-emotional systems all over the world ascribe certain
)very consistent colors and emotions to the heart *chakra*--maybe that's
)what Steiner was getting at. Who knows. Who cares. That's an idea to be
)*kinesthetically experienced*, not debated!
KOPP says:
These are unscientific mysticisms. And what the hell does it mean to
"kinesthetically experience" and idea? Instead of debating it. I can only
imagine that it's kinda like joining Timothy Leary (another guru-type):
"turn on, tune in and drop out". Maybe that's what a Steiner/ Waldorf/
Anthroposophical education is all about, except it replaces Leary's dope
with Steiner's mind-dope.
JARVIS:
)I can only hope that Waldorf education in general is not as idea-addicted
)as this list seems to be . . . (Awfully ironic that Goethe had some very
)pointed things to say about Germans in particular, and "idea addiction" as
)a national problem . . . Hmmm. Take *that* idea wherever it seems to lead .
). .)
KOPP says:
Unfortunately, Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophical education IS infatuated
with the end-all be-all of Steiner's revealed wisdom, the best think since
sliced bread. They frequently say Waldorf without Anthroposophy (and
Steiner) would not be Waldorf.
Jarvis at the top asks why we go on at length (a whole WEEK, wow, like a
whole WEEK) and if we don't have LIVES!?
Well, Lark, it's like this: when you get a bit older, you get to be able to
increase your attention span (unless you got addicted to television, which
I didn't) so that you can actually engage in a protracted intellectual
endeavour that takes more than five seconds and says more than "yeah, cool,
man, whatever". It's called cultural life when it applies to real
situations that we all face (the education of our young), and is much more
than navel-gazing.
And what we're doing here is very important, because it is the everyday
manifestation of the age-old contest between reason and superstition (see
my reply to Angelica Hesse, elsewhere, for more on this subject).
This IS life, Lark -- it's what your education was supposed to make you fit
to participate in. Try it sometime.
[rest snipped for a separate reply]
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n713.9 ---------------
From: "Danielg" (danielg nectar.com.au)
Subject: Free hallucinogenic drugs in your mailbox, (and make $$$ while your at it)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 23:35:51 +1000
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Dear Waldorf Critics,
I thought it might be nice to give you some fodder to play with, throw some
meat to the squirrels so to speak...(it seems to me that this list is very
good at the circular...)
I would just like to shout at the top of my lungs (in the most here I am
manner which dear father Lucifee has taught me so well...)
I am the outcome of Waldorf Education...I have been indoctrinated by its
evil devious ways...I think back on those joyful days learning about
rainbows and fairies and the ways of the master race, and yearn for those
days to return...I have followed the light bearer into the dark...and have
come out the other side with a compulsion to live with the rubbish that
Steiner left us...I am what you are dreadfully afraid of...I am alive in
this world and reverent to the fact that the heart is a pump, and is also
not a pump...that colour is the deeds of light and that light is made up of
colour...I am a poor misguided...and I am very interested in the seeming
fact that none of the Anthroposophists I know ever try to deconstruct any
movement which is not in agreement with what the good doctor said, but
rather reverently respect all points of view, even those of the
materialists, (I should probably add that while this observation applies to
the real world...the electric highway is a vast hall of organised crime in
this respect, for this I sincerely apologise...but do not retract any
before phrased statements) and if this is the only thing that they have
going for them, then even this is an indication as to the tolerant nature
of people who are genuinely living (from any point of persuasion), or
trying to live to something higher than "A worms what I am..." and it seems
to me that this is something which opponents of anything should keep in
heart...he who is without sin, may throw the first stone......and so my big
question is......if you are so anti WE, what is your alternative to
alternative education?
I would very much like to hear what your ideas on an ideal and practical
education would be, indeed I would rather like a complete theory of
education circulated before any more ANTI comments are made.
I would also appreciate it if the first reply to this post is a direct
attack at me (feel free to extract any piece of vagabond text), and it
would really be the icing on the cake if someone could tell me how wrong
and deluded I am and how right and virtuous they are.
A challenge than...
Yours,
Brittanus the Joyed, vagabond in a city of vagrants.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n713.10 ---------------
From: "David E. Gower" (dgower interhop.net)
Subject: Re: Free hallucinogenic drugs in your mailbox, (and make $$$
while your at it)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 11:02:08 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199804081334.GAA03463 lists1.best.com)
At 23:35 08/04/98 +1000, Brittanus the Joyed, vagabond in a city of
vagrants wrote:
)Dear Waldorf Critics,
snip
)
)I would very much like to hear what your ideas on an ideal and practical
)education would be, indeed I would rather like a complete theory of
)education circulated before any more ANTI comments are made.
)
The FORM of an "ideal" educaton would be a teacher/student of one to one,
custom tailored that child's needs and abilities. In "practical" terms,
the ratio and individual attention is going to be somewhat less.
However, as far as the CONTENT of that education is concerned, whether
practical or ideal, it would NOT include teaching mysticism as science.
**************************************************************************
Opinions, comments, etc. are my own and all original material is:
Copyright 1998 by David E. Gower. All Rights Reserved.
Contact: dgower interhop.net
_!_
_______(_)_______
"watch your six"
**************************************************************************
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n713 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n714 --------------
001 - angelica hesse (hesse96 m - Re: Heart in Main Lesson Book
002 - angelica hesse (hesse96 m - Re: Free hallucinogenic drugs in your mailbox, (and make $$$
003 - angelica hesse (hesse96 m - Re: Heart in Main Lesson Book
004 - angelica hesse (hesse96 m - CULT/ST RUDY/inflammatory-ness
005 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Max's kindergarten
006 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Heart as pump, etc.... (religious schisms)
007 - snell netshel.net - Re: Heart in Main Lesson Book
008 - Michael Kopp (mkopp actri - Re: Free hallucinogenic drugs in your mailbox, (and make $$$
009 - Michael Kopp (mkopp actri - Re: CULT/ST RUDY/inflammatory-ness
010 - Michael Kopp (mkopp actri - Re: Max's kindergarten
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n714.1 ---------------
From: angelica hesse (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: Re: Heart in Main Lesson Book
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 12:59:50 -0400 (EDT)
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In-Reply-To: (199804080227.TAA21084 lists1.best.com) from "Lark Jarvis" at Apr 7, 98 07:24:29 pm
) The children seemed rather dazed--somewhat like sheep. None of the usual
) high-spirited mischief that you would expect to find in a kindergarten
) class. Perhaps they knew that they were "performing," but we also observed
) returned later and watched them making bread, and were relatively
) unobtrusive about it. It seemed, in retrospect, as if they were
) participating in an elaborate *ritual*, and they knew it.
I completely see and understand your concern at what you experienced there.
If children really don't seem to be living, but rather role-playing or
something like that, it is certainly a legitimate concern. I would,
however, like to offer an alternative conclusion, based on what you
described (and also my own experience watching waldorf kindergarten
children).
When I see young children who are completely absorbed in what
they are doing, they do tend to look as though not aware of the rest of the
world around them. It's like they create a world for themselves, and are
100% immersed in it. Sometimes it's jsut one child, sometimes a group
together. I know that waldorf kindergartens do encourage becomign completely
immersed in an activity, a story etc. ( in fact, this happens later too, in
the way different cultures are presented and experienced).
We certainly all know children to be mischievious. I often wonder why. Is
it because they are inherently so, or that they're trying to get attention?
Are they just be energetic? Are they struggling to find a place where they
can be part of the world? From my babysitting experiences, I notice that
children tend to cause a lot more trouble when not given respect, and real
concern and attention. So is mischief a necessary characteristic of young
children, or a way to get the attention of the adult world?
While in no way negating what you saw and experienced at the Texas school, I
would like to pose a question of enterpretation: were these children truly
dazed and dumbed down, or were they highly absorbed and possibly quite
content?
) Granted, no two Waldorf kindergarten teachers are alike, but as is my
) understanding, the curriculum will be the same no matter where you are.
The curriculum I remember was quite wonderful: stories, songs, circle games,
free play and drawing every day. Beeswax modelling, bread-making (it was GOOD!),
soup making, eurythmy, and painting (each day of the week had it's own
theme). And two languages, one day each.
Maybe the children you saw really weren't happy. I certainly can't say,
because I wasnt' there. I know however, that my kindergarten days were
really wonderful. As highschool students, we used to look at the children
and say: Wouldnt' it be great to be in K again, making soup and bread, and
having nap time???? Unfortunately, my time there was short, because they
didnt' have room for me until february. I only got four months in this
wonderful (to me) environment.
Earnestly,
Angelica G. Hesse
hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n714.2 ---------------
From: angelica hesse (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: Re: Free hallucinogenic drugs in your mailbox, (and make $$$
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:08:27 -0400 (EDT)
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In-Reply-To: (199804081504.IAA15321 lists1.best.com) from "David E. Gower" at Apr 8, 98 11:02:08 am
) The FORM of an "ideal" educaton would be a teacher/student of one to one,
) custom tailored that child's needs and abilities. In "practical" terms,
) the ratio and individual attention is going to be somewhat less.
Homeschooling is really the closest thing to that. Is taht what you have in
mind??
) However, as far as the CONTENT of that education is concerned, whether
) practical or ideal, it would NOT include teaching mysticism as science.
THat has been pretty much stated many times here. What WOULD it include?
Angelica
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n714.3 ---------------
From: angelica hesse (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: Re: Heart in Main Lesson Book
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:19:07 -0400 (EDT)
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In-Reply-To: (199804080922.CAA18582 lists1.best.com) from "Michael Kopp" at Apr 8, 98 10:20:58 am
LARK:
) )I have NO clue what the
) )"sacred texts" say on the subject, or what's actually preached, but I would
) )certainly buy the idea that the heart is not JUST a pump. Maybe that's
) )what Steiner meant--who knows.
ANGELICA
Despite the comments made by critics to this post, I see some merit in it.
I wonder whether maybe we're all making everything too black and white
around here. I have not read any of the 'sacred texts' either. I dont'
actually know what steiner said to this effect. YOur suggestion strikes me,
however as a good one: the heart isn't just a pump. And, clearly, the heart
is not the sole force that moves blood through the body. Obviously, however,
the heart is a muscle, and does perform a pumping, contraction action. I
dont' think anyone here has denied that.
The question then remains:
Isn't what is being taught in waldorf schools something along the lines of what
I've proposed above. If so, it terribly off base and innarcurate in
terms of accepted, scientific theory?
If so, how?
If not, what if any, is the remaining concern about bio in WE?
Sincerely,
Angelica G. Hesse
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n714.4 ---------------
From: angelica hesse (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: CULT/ST RUDY/inflammatory-ness
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:42:30 -0400 (EDT)
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In-Reply-To: (199804071848.LAA02118 lists1.best.com) from "Daniel Sabsay" at Apr 7, 98 11:47:44 am
) The nature of a cult is that its structure precludes rejecting the
) founder's premises. A person whose insight via "spiritual science"
) Dis-confirms Saint Rudy will be denounced as errant, or excommunicated.
) This is the nature of subjective "investigation", and leads to religious
) schisms and holy wars.
) Anthroposophy will never be able to rid itself of "the heart is not a
) pump" because nobody except Saint Rudy has the authority to change the
) scriptures (e.g., the "four lectures" or the "ten lectures").
Daniel S.
I am concerned with two terms that are being consistently used on this list:
CULT and ST. RUDY. Personally, I experience them both as inflammatory.
Cult is truly a denigrating term, and tends to illicit only defensiveness
(at least on my part). I'd like to move away from criticism and
defensiveness and toward an earnest conversation about what really concerns
all of us, on both sides of this issue. Cult, at least to me, implies a
society BASED on control and manipulation. It also brings to mind too many
images of people committing suicide.
As for St. Rudy, I'm torn between laughing at it, and being appalled. I do
not for a second consider him a saint. (Sainthood, traditionally, is only
bestowed by the Catholic church anyway, and if you know anything about their
reaction to him, you'd see how impossible it is for him to be considered a
saint.) I suspect, however, that's not what you meant. Am I correct in
interpreting that you mean 'followers' of steiner treat/view him as a saint?
Yes, some probably do. In the same way, fanatical followers of ANY belief
systems raise individuals to this kind of height. It is, however
unrealistic, and as you seem to be pointing out, negative. I would never
give Steiner the status of a god or a saint. I admire his dignity as a
human being, his social efforts, and his discipline. But I don't' for a
second consider him perfect -- he to was human.
If someone else, from
any walk of life, achieves clairvoyance, what they have to say deserves to
be heard, just as he did. If Anthroposophists prevent such people from
bringing new insights, they would be hampering exactly the evolution of
knowledge and wisdom and spirituality they profess to support. Obviously,
it can be tempting to do this, because sometimes one loses perspective. We
as humans tend to forget that even the best knowledge we have is limited,
and that it can always change and be improved. I will certainly admit that
the same thing needs to happen in Anthroposophy. We (if I'm even part of
them!) need to remember this as much as the rest of the world. I hope no
one is denying that. Maintaining an open mind and accepting change is a
difficult thing with which we all struggle constantly.
I've been stubborn and critical on this for the last week, possibly too much
so. It's gotten really nasty around here, and I can't imagine that this is
enjoyable for anyone for extended periods of time. I'd prefer, at this
point, to actually try to understand legitimate concerns on the critics
side, while sharing those on my own side. In order to do this, however, I
think we need a ground rule of at least minimal respect.
I suggest that we all voluntarily eliminate inflammatory terms from this
list. The ones that jump at me are
CULT and
ST STEINER
IF there are any that 'defenders' are using, please share.
Hopefully, we can get something more akin to constructive
criticisms/dialogue rather than outright verbal wars on this list.
Respectfully,
Angelica G. Hesse
hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n714.5 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Max's kindergarten
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 10:57:50 -0700
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References: (199804070924.CAA07853 lists1.best.com)
(199804070504.WAA20058 lists1.best.com)
(199804070430.VAA17591 lists1.best.com)
(199804071937.MAA11915 lists1.best.com) (199804080538.WAA03198 lists1.best.com)
That is a sad story, sorry to hear about the trouble.
It is an unfortunately corollary to any alternative movement or veign that it
attracts wierdos illsuited to maintstream culture. Some of these wierdos (Tesla
is a favorite), bring a positive contribution with them, others (more commonly)
are degenerate.
With WE, there is a shortage of "indoctrinated" teachers tp go around, so the
marginal schools clamor for marginal teachers while schools like Sacramento skim
the cream (or half and half if your a skeptic). None is better than bad in
these situations.
My parents started the Davis waldorf school with others so my sister wouldn't
have to commute the hour each way as I had for 10 years. My dad eventually
found the 'inner circle' too much to bear and quit. He was far too practical
for their ideology. So I empathize with those on this list who have come up
against WE ideology and lost (something, maybe).
ezra
snell netshel.net wrote:
) I wrote,
) )) My son _was_ miserable, but I could not hear that. His kindergarten class
) )) was very unhealthy.
) )
) )Could you please qualify this statement (briefly)?
)
) Well, I'll spare you the sobbing teacher in the parking lot stories...
)
) The summer we enrolled Max for fall, the school hired two additional
) Waldorf teachers (at the last minute). They did not have the enrollment to
) support the teachers. The school had a waiting list in the spring, but by
) the time two more Waldorf teachers were hired, the waiting list was gone.
) Some of the [two year kindergarten] families had pulled out of the school
) to enroll their children in a home based Waldorf kindergarten. Seems the
) home based kindergarten teacher had worked at the school for 3 months in
) the spring when the _regular_ Waldorf kindergarten teacher became ill.
) Parents and children fell in love with her. (She applied for one of the
) kindergarten openings but was passed over by the faculty). When Julie was
) not hired, she started her own kindergarten out of her home, due to the
) many requests of the families. Those of us who didn't know the story
) enrolled our children at the school, expecting a full kindergarten
) classroom with a desirable teacher.
)
) Max's kindergarten teacher [that the faculty chose _over_ their substitute
) from the previous year] was fresh out of RSC. She had a total of four kids
) in her class. It just didn't work for Max. He loathed school and began to
) hide under the table to get away from the children who hit him and stole
) his lunch. The day he pretended to be sleeping all day was the day I pulled
) him out. The teacher could not control the other three kids and Max is
) pretty mellow. We placed Max in the kindergarten program whose teacher was
) rejected by the faculty. Max liked his new teacher very much, and the
) children were great and normal kids. He felt safe there. Even as president
) of PLANS, we continue to be great friends. (Now living out of town, she
) comes clawing at my door at ungodly hours, looking for a place to sleep.)
)
) Eventually the teacher from the was let go. She has not taught in a Waldorf
) school since. (She seemed to have a few of her own problems..)
) Debra
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n714.6 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc.... (religious schisms)
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 12:01:15 -0700
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References: (199804080122.SAA17641 lists1.best.com)
Daniel Sabsay wrote:
)This is the nature of ANY ideology (and everything is based on ideology of one
) )form or another), be it Anthros, Humanists, Skeptics, Anabaptists. Rejecting
) )one's premises requires a metaphysical worldview. Otherwise it leads to
) )nihilism.
)
) But recently you [Ezra] also said )
)
) )The scientific method is a formalized process for assesing phenomena. I think
) )that the conceptual framework is mighty powerfull and reflects the nature it
) )seeks to explain. Survival of the fittest is essentially an exercise in the
) )scientific method (work with me here). Traits that are not easily passed
) )along, nor proven to be usefull, are not incorporated into the organism. The
) )measure of usefulleness is not static, but the process is.
)
) So, do I take it that you don't include the scientific method in your
) list of ideologies?
I fail to see the inconsistancy of my statements, or that it follows that I place
the scientific method beyond an ideology. I may want to compare notes on the
dictionary definition of ideology, so we are on thye same page, but I would argue
that the scientific method is an occidental ideology. It is a very powerfull one,
but no less self perpetuating (and Kuhn explains this well) or gaurded than
others. Tenents of the scientitic method are ultimately accept on faith (Hume
nailed it in his Inquiry). Induction itself, is based on faith.
I see a great deal of confusion in this list on the difference between inductive
and deductive proof. Other areas of confusion are the difference between stochastic
and deterministic systems, and formalized concepts of causation (the difference
between necessary and sufficient causes).
ezra
)
)
) -- Daniel Sabsay, president
) East Bay Skeptics Society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n714.7 ---------------
From: snell netshel.net
Subject: Re: Heart in Main Lesson Book
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:18:14 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199804080922.CAA18582 lists1.best.com) from "Michael Kopp" at
Apr 8, 98 10:20:58 am
In-Reply-To: (199804081720.KAA16538 lists1.best.com)
)ANGELICA
)Obviously, however,
)the heart is a muscle, and does perform a pumping, contraction action. I
)dont' think anyone here has denied that.
The teachers at my children's publicly funded Waldorf school (Mariposa/Twin
Ridges/Yuba River) denied it in a public meeting where the agenda was to
respond to PLANS slideshow [given to their sponsoring school board], 'Why
Waldorf Schools are Unsuitable for Public Funding'. While this list is
monitored by members of the school community, they merely print out the
posts to take them back to the school or tell the school community what has
been said on this list. People thought to be supporting PLANS agenda
experience emotional phone calls where local WE proponents can twist words,
make threats and decisions seemingly based on fear. I wish they would
participate on the list.
Debra
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n714.8 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: Re: Free hallucinogenic drugs in your mailbox, (and make $$$
while your at it)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 03:16:47 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199804081334.GAA03463 lists1.best.com)
Someone calling themselves danielg writes:
)Dear Waldorf Critics,
)
)I thought it might be nice to give you some fodder to play with, throw some
)meat to the squirrels so to speak...(it seems to me that this list is very
)good at the circular...)
)
)I would just like to shout at the top of my lungs (in the most here I am
)manner which dear father Lucifee has taught me so well...)
)
)I am the outcome of Waldorf Education...I have been indoctrinated by its
)evil devious ways..
[snip]
)..and so my big
)question is......if you are so anti WE, what is your alternative to
)alternative education?
)
)I would very much like to hear what your ideas on an ideal and practical
)education would be, indeed I would rather like a complete theory of
)education circulated before any more ANTI comments are made.
)
)I would also appreciate it if the first reply to this post is a direct
)attack at me (feel free to extract any piece of vagabond text), and it
)would really be the icing on the cake if someone could tell me how wrong
)and deluded I am and how right and virtuous they are.
)
)A challenge than...
)
)Yours,
)
)Brittanus the Joyed, vagabond in a city of vagrants.
KOPP says:
Pretty fine writing, son, typical of most of the ravings of former Steiner/
Waldorf/ Anthroposophical students.
That is, if you're not really Tom Mellet in disguise, and faking an email
address in Australia!
Yet the question of what an education should be -- stardard OR alternative
-- is an interesting one, and I think most of us who have experience of
both would have some ideas worth discussing. I for one have been doing a
lot of thinking about it lately, as well as reading widely about the
philosophy of eucation.
But I'm not gonna do it until our friend "Britannus the Joyed" tells us who
he really is, and gives us some more info about himself and his SWA
associations.
Come on, danielg or britannus or whatever you are, sign yourself properly.
We've had one bout of anonymity on this list that didn't go too well, and
that doesn't include my initial posts through the moderator which I
requested not to sign because of possible retaliation from my Steiner
school.
But see, _I_ came clean -- I really AM Michael Kopp, not Lucifer or Ahriman.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n714.9 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: Re: CULT/ST RUDY/inflammatory-ness
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 09:28:52 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199804071848.LAA02118 lists1.best.com) from "Daniel Sabsay"
at Apr 7, 98 11:47:44 am
In-Reply-To: (199804081744.KAA10224 lists1.best.com)
Angelica Hesse writes about cults, St. Rudy, and clairvoyance:
)I am concerned with two terms that are being consistently used on this list:
)CULT and ST. RUDY. Personally, I experience them both as inflammatory.
)
)Cult is truly a denigrating term, and tends to illicit only defensiveness
)(at least on my part). I'd like to move away from criticism and
)defensiveness and toward an earnest conversation about what really concerns
)all of us, on both sides of this issue. Cult, at least to me, implies a
)society BASED on control and manipulation. It also brings to mind too many
)images of people committing suicide.
KOPP says:
If the cult fits, wear it. I don't usually call Steiner/ Waldorf/
Anthroposophy a cult, I say it is cult-like. This debate has raged here
before many times. There is good reason for considering SWA cult-like, in
the formal senses of the word. Hesses is welcome to rattle skeletons of
Jonestown and Heaven's Gate, but cults can be damaging to people without
being suicidal. If Hesse wants to feel offended, that's her privilege. The
use of the term is not intended -- by me, at least -- to offend, but to
characterise are nearly as possible the nature of the SWA movement.
I reject yet again Hesse's desire to "move away from criticism". My
criticism may be more strident than most, but that's because I'm not a
disinterested, academic observer. I was a participant, and wronged
grievously. But I am not bitter, just angry and seeking justice, which, in
my view, includes exposing and criticising SWA exceeses, falsehoods,
duplicity and mumbo-jumbo. If Hesse can't stick to those arguments, she
belongs on another list that is more friendly to SWA.
[snip St. Rudy apologia]
HESSE:
)If someone else, from
)any walk of life, achieves clairvoyance, .... [rest snipped]
KOPP says:
Two questions for Hesse, straight up, simple, one-word answers, please, so
we can be sure that what she seems to be saying is actually what she
believes and means to say:
1. Do you mean to say by the above that you personally believe in clairvoyance?
2. Do you mean to say by the above that you personally believe Rudolf Steiner
did achieve clairvoyance?
HESSE:
[snip]
)I suggest that we all voluntarily eliminate inflammatory terms from this
)list. The ones that jump at me are
)CULT and
)ST STEINER
KOPP says:
Now Hesse wants voluntary censorship.
I refuse.
The use of terms like cult and St. Rudy are well within the guidelines of
both Internet general netiquette and those of this list.
When we agree not to offend one another with our views, then we lose the
ability to have free, frank and meaningful dialogue.
Hesse says she wants to understand the real concerns of SWA critics. So far
I see no evidence that she has understood any of the criticism. What I have
seen so far fits the mold of what I earlier characterised on this list as a
"defender of the faith".
Making strong statements about one anothers' beliefs does not imply
disrespect for that person as an individual human being with a right to
believe anything they wish. I have that respect for Hesse. But I will not
be muzzled by a call for that respect to include refraining from
criticising, in strong terms, those beliefs and their basis, and the human
institutions that practice them.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n714.10 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: Re: Max's kindergarten
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 09:35:40 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199804070924.CAA07853 lists1.best.com)
(199804070504.WAA20058 lists1.best.com)
(199804070430.VAA17591 lists1.best.com)
(199804071937.MAA11915 lists1.best.com)
(199804080538.WAA03198 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199804081757.KAA19055 lists1.best.com)
Ezra Beeman says in response to Deby Snell's sad tale of a bad Waldorf
kindergarten expeience:
)My parents started the Davis waldorf school with others so my sister wouldn't
)have to commute the hour each way as I had for 10 years. My dad eventually
)found the 'inner circle' too much to bear and quit. He was far too practical
)for their ideology. So I empathize with those on this list who have come up
)against WE ideology and lost (something, maybe).
)ezra
KOPP says:
Gosh, how about a little sympathy for the strident Kopp? Or do angry people
not rate any?
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n714 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n715 --------------
001 - "Joel A. Wendt" (hermit m - Re: Heart as pump, etc....
002 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Max's kindergarten
003 - snell netshel.net - Angelica/Anthroposophia List
004 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Heart in Main Lesson Book
005 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: CULT/ST RUDY/inflammatory-ness
006 - snell netshel.net - Re: Heart in Main Lesson Book
007 - lark involved.com (Lark J - Re: CULT/ST RUDY/inflammatory-ness
008 - snell netshel.net - Speaking of deplorable treatment..
009 - "Joel A. Wendt" (hermit m - matters of the heart
010 - "Danielg" (danielg nectar - Re: Free hallucinogenic drugs in your mailbox, (and make $$$wh
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n715.1 ---------------
From: "Joel A. Wendt" (hermit microweb.com)
Subject: Re: Heart as pump, etc....
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 15:25:05 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199804071637.JAA26223 lists1.best.com) (199804072029.NAA02715 lists1.best.com)
Ezra Beeman wrote:
How is a much more
) usefull description that is not fraught with the metaphysics of why. Try it out.
) Everytime you seek explanation, instead of posing why does it happen, try posing
) how does it happen.
Ezra,
Okay, I'll bite. "How" do we think?
joel wendt
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n715.2 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Max's kindergarten
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 15:33:02 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199804070924.CAA07853 lists1.best.com)
(199804070504.WAA20058 lists1.best.com)
(199804070430.VAA17591 lists1.best.com)
(199804071937.MAA11915 lists1.best.com)
(199804080538.WAA03198 lists1.best.com) (199804082137.OAA00220 lists1.best.com)
) KOPP says:
)
) Gosh, how about a little sympathy for the strident Kopp? Or do angry people
) not rate any?
I am sympathetic to your cause as well, and all for accountability on the part of
WE, public and private. I feel that publically funded or no, they should be
accountable for a certain level of education. If they want to meet those goals
using veil painting or myths or whatever, more power to them.It is shamefull,
legally and educationally, that there is no oversight in NZ.
Ezra Beeman
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n715.3 ---------------
From: snell netshel.net
Subject: Angelica/Anthroposophia List
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:15:30 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Angelica,
Are you subscribed to the Anthroposophia list? If you haven't time to delve
into Steiner through his prolific writings, perhaps you should be a member
of the group that discusses his writings. It is a very active list whose
participants are striving Anthroposophists. Below is the footnote that
appears on every post. I crashed my Eudora (again) or I'd forward the
welcome letter with _all_ the info as to how to subscribe to that list. I
suspect that by e-mailing (friend intuition.org), you may get some help to
join.
Debra
INTUITION NETWORK COMPUTER CONFERENCE SYSTEM
For personal assistance (i.e., to unsubscribe) e-mail: friend intuition.org
Info-robot (listserver commands): e-mail "send info" to info intuition.org
Local intuition "Inreaching" study groups e-mail: inreaching aol.com
Intuition Network web site -- www.intuition.org
Thinking Allowed web site -- www.thinking-allowed.com
Intuition Magazine e-mail: IntuitMag aol.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n715.4 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Heart in Main Lesson Book
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 15:45:09 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199804080922.CAA18582 lists1.best.com) from "Michael Kopp" at
Apr 8, 98 10:20:58 am (199804082019.NAA22048 lists1.best.com)
Given the equally deplorable treatment found on this list, I don't blame them.
ezra
) I wish they would
) participate on the list.
) Debra
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n715.5 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: CULT/ST RUDY/inflammatory-ness
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 15:56:19 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199804071848.LAA02118 lists1.best.com) from "Daniel Sabsay"
at Apr 7, 98 11:47:44 am (199804082129.OAA22752 lists1.best.com)
I may not like, or even dispise what Mr. Kopp has to say, but I would defend his
right to say it. I think that his language at times borders on bad taste, but how
you react to his taunts is your business. Such sterilization of the discussion, as
suggested, is more revolting to me than any possible derogotory epithets.
Personally, language is a matter of style and tell alot about a person beyond the
words themselves.
ezra
) Kopp's interlude:
)
) When we agree not to offend one another with our views, then we lose the
) ability to have free, frank and meaningful dialogue.
)
) Hesse says she wants to understand the real concerns of SWA critics. So far
) I see no evidence that she has understood any of the criticism. What I have
) seen so far fits the mold of what I earlier characterised on this list as a
) "defender of the faith".
)
) Making strong statements about one anothers' beliefs does not imply
) disrespect for that person as an individual human being with a right to
) believe anything they wish. I have that respect for Hesse. But I will not
) be muzzled by a call for that respect to include refraining from
) criticising, in strong terms, those beliefs and their basis, and the human
) institutions that practice them.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n715.6 ---------------
From: snell netshel.net
Subject: Re: Heart in Main Lesson Book
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 16:03:22 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199804080922.CAA18582 lists1.best.com) from "Michael Kopp" at
Apr 8, 98 10:20:58 am (199804082019.NAA22048 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199804082244.PAA05898 lists1.best.com)
)Given the equally deplorable treatment found on this list, I don't blame them.
)ezra
)
)
)) I wish they would
)) participate on the list.
)) Debra
Err, I'm going to choose not to take this statement personally, Ezra.
Debra
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n715.7 ---------------
From: lark involved.com (Lark Jarvis)
Subject: Re: CULT/ST RUDY/inflammatory-ness
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 16:24:28 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199804081744.KAA10224 lists1.best.com)
(199804071848.LAA02118 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199804082129.OAA22752 lists1.best.com)
I have a question for Michael Kopp--two, actually. First, are you always
this rude and intentionally inflammatory? Not having been on the list for
very long, I have nothing to compare your latest posts to, but I must say,
on any other list to which I've ever been subbed, such blatant name-calling
and immaturity would not be tolerated. It's simply not productive, no
matter how "life and death" the issue may seem.
Secondly, (and this is the one that really interests me) what in your
personal life-situation provokes such anger/hostility/taking all this so
seriously? Are you one of those people who's received threatening phone
calls, all that? If so, I'm really sorry. It amazes me the lengths that
people will go to make strange, life-and-death controversies where there
are none. I have "no dog in this fight," (as we used to say in small town
Texas), but I do wonder--if WE offends/threatens you so much, why not just
leave it to those who find it functional, and walk away and get a life?
And, again, I'm not "Hesse" (Angelica, to those of us who are "playing
nicely"! ;) but I will take an unsolicited stab at your two questions:
)1. Do you mean to say by the above that you personally believe in
clairvoyance?
)
In short, I believe that the boundaries between one human being and
another, or between past and present, are not always straight-forward and
impenetrable (I'm definitely not a scientist, but it is my understanding
that quantum physics points somewhat in these same directions, for what
it's worth). I admit that "unexplainable" phenomena exist, but I don't
give it a whole heck of a lot of thought/consideration/planning in my daily
life. To do so would be to try to create a religious belief system where
one is not needed . . .
)2. Do you mean to say by the above that you personally believe Rudolf Steiner
) did achieve clairvoyance?
I have no idea about Steiner, but I will say, as a bodywork professional
(who's been, BTW, quite a skeptic around the "crystal-hugging, New Age
crowd in general), that there are many, many people who seem to have very
well-developed intuitive senses (almost to the point of complete
boundarylessness of ego, etc.). While this can at times be somewhat
helpful, I wouldn't say it's wise to actually *cultivate* such skills--in
fact, most people who seem to have "clairvoyant," intuitive faculties are
often people who have very serious histories of childhood abuse and
neglect. People with traumatic histories of very serious boundary
violations, and who have the need for the development of super-human
survival instincts, in other words. So, at risk of being inflammatory, is
it possible that Steiner himself was one of these people? The literature
always takes such care to present him as having had wonderful, perfect
parents, but methinks they doth protest a bit too much. It very much
bears mentioning that *if* he did have such all-nurturing, understanding
parents and upbringing, then he was certainly an anomaly in his historical
period and geographical region . . . In any case, that's what my rational,
liberally educated mind can deduce about the whole situation . . . . I just
want to know how it all plays out in Real Life, in the late 20th Century.
Again, though, Michael, I'm sorry if I missed your original intro
postings--would you mind recapping what your injurious experience with WE
was? I don't at all doubt that it happened, whatever it was, but I'm a bit
perplexed as to the level of your vehemence. Explain, please, for a
clueless newbie? Also, it bears mentioning--this is an informal EMAIL list.
As such, noone who posts here should be made to feel that he or she is
posting some sort of scholarly dissertation. I'm not interested in
scholarly sorts of mental masturbation/philosophical-religious debate, but
rather real life stories of real people who have experienced real Waldorf
Schools or other Anthroposophical ventures. If you wish to continue to
critique each post on grounds of composition and spelling as opposed to
content, please let me know, and I'd be happy to direct you to the
copy-editors' list.
Lark in Portland
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n715.8 ---------------
From: snell netshel.net
Subject: Speaking of deplorable treatment..
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:06:38 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199804080922.CAA18582 lists1.best.com) from "Michael Kopp" at
Apr 8, 98 10:20:58 am (199804082019.NAA22048 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199804082244.PAA05898 lists1.best.com)
)Given the equally deplorable treatment found on this list, I don't blame them.
)ezra
)
)
)) I wish they would
)) participate on the list.
)) Debra
I have yet to experience the emotional acting out on this list that I've
witnessed in my own community. I've been flipped off, harrassed while
driving (frightening my child who was with me), harrassed in the grocery
store (in front of my children), phoned an uncountable number of times by
crying/screaming/irrationale Waldorfians. I watched my child be cut from
his long term district cup winning metro soccer team when WE parents took
over the coaching positions (that problem was fixed), watched children hurt
deeply by emotional parents who can't separate the issues from the people,
then involve their children. I've been called a witch by Waldorf school
employees & children as young as 4th grade (while my own children know very
little of my beliefs about WE). I've experienced a police-involved death
threat. When they flip me off, I return a peace sign. I tell them that
this is not a personal issue and this is America. American's have a right
to discuss issues without being personally attacked. I have witnessed WE
supporters stand up in public meetings, crying and yelling, "In Waldorf, we
don't vote, we trust." (This was at the meeting to discuss why the ballots
for class representative elections were ripped out of a parent council
member's hand and destroyed in the parking lot in front of children and
parents who were there to pick up their children.).
I think these folks could make us appreciate Michael. He is admittedly
angry, but he combines it with intelligence and logic. There is also a
safety shield with e-mail. Dealing with intensely angry people in person is
a real experience.
Debra
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n715.9 ---------------
From: "Joel A. Wendt" (hermit microweb.com)
Subject: matters of the heart
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 17:34:49 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199804080922.CAA18582 lists1.best.com) from "Michael Kopp" at
Apr 8, 98 10:20:58 am (199804082019.NAA22048 lists1.best.com)
Debra,
In case it may be of service to a few who read this list, I will try to
give my understanding of Steiner's "idea", which is much more subtle
then the statement: "the heart is not a pump".
First of all it is necessary to realize that a "pump" is a mechanical
construction - a device. I don't know the history of this mechanical
device, but it probably predates (in some form) the arising in history
of science (prior to the 14th century).
The "heart", however, is an organ in a living body. It is not a
device, and was not invented by human beings. As an organ it is rather
unusual, in that if it is destroyed, the whole dies. The loss of other
organs does not, necessarily, produce this consequence.
Moreover, over the centuries of human existence, the center of human
feeling life has been connected to the heart. Our language is filled
with words whose meaning is born in the experience of human beings of
this relationship between their life of feeling and the human heart:
cold hearted, warm hearted, my heart got caught in my throat, I was so
shocked my heart stopped, heart rending, and so on.
Only in the last two hundred years has human thinking, under the
influence of the discipline of science, began to disregard human
experience and conceive of the heart as a simple "pump" for the blood.
Steiner actually didn't say: "the heart is not a pump", but what he
said is that: if one was to only look at the heart, using some kind of
physical mechanism as an analogy, then it is most like a phnematic ram,
because the heart (at this level) controls the flow of the blood by
"interrupting" it, by blocking its flow.
Please do not assume that I am arguing the above. Such is not my
intention. Rather my thought is to open up the rigidity of the
argument, which tends to focus on this simplistic and negative image
(the heart is not a pump), and make it possible for us to actually
consider the idea as it was meant.
Steiner was also concerned to point out that the heart, being a
"living" organ, in fact the "central" organ in the human form, was also
(in its own way) a "sense" organ. What is meant by that is rather
complicated, but we could say that on one level it is "sensitive" to the
"quality" of the blood flow, and therefore it adjusts its rhythms (in
cooperation with the nervous system) accordingly. At another level it
"sees" the world of human feelings and responds to that.
Again, I am not "arguing" these matters, just trying to broaden and
deepen our understanding of some aspects of the "idea", which has been
so mutilated and then arives on this list as: "the heart is not a pump".
I know the zealots will crunch away, accusing me of being an
anthroposophical appoligist etc., but no mind.
I should say, in passing, that science, whatever its positive
qualities, actually doesn't study the matters pointed toward above. The
reductionist tendency, having eliminated anything remotely qualitative
from consideration, can only build up a world picture of countable point
centered entitites. When the practices of science grows beyond its
current limits, and takes other matters under the consideration of its
careful processes of investigation, who can say what it will find.
joel wendt
snell netshel.net wrote:
)
) )ANGELICA
) )Obviously, however,
) )the heart is a muscle, and does perform a pumping, contraction action. I
) )dont' think anyone here has denied that.
)
) The teachers at my children's publicly funded Waldorf school (Mariposa/Twin
) Ridges/Yuba River) denied it in a public meeting where the agenda was to
) respond to PLANS slideshow [given to their sponsoring school board], 'Why
) Waldorf Schools are Unsuitable for Public Funding'. While this list is
) monitored by members of the school community, they merely print out the
) posts to take them back to the school or tell the school community what has
) been said on this list. People thought to be supporting PLANS agenda
) experience emotional phone calls where local WE proponents can twist words,
) make threats and decisions seemingly based on fear. I wish they would
) participate on the list.
) Debra
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n715.10 ---------------
From: "Danielg" (danielg nectar.com.au)
Subject: Re: Free hallucinogenic drugs in your mailbox, (and make $$$while your at it)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 12:12:41 +1000
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
But I'm not gonna do it until our friend "Britannus the Joyed" tells us
who
) he really is, and gives us some more info about himself and his SWA
) associations.
)
) Come on, danielg or britannus or whatever you are, sign yourself
properly.
)
Well well, this certainly is an interesting stand. My feeling is that I
could't give a feather who you are on the list (although I would be very
interested if I met you in person). As long as one is consistant with ones
identity, what difference does it make who I sign in as. (If you are so
interested why don't you do a search on my e-mail address and pickup the
trail...)
If I said my name was Daniel Greenwood, would it make the slightest lick of
difference to if I told you I was Daniel Grizwald, or Daniel Grunawald, or
Edgar Van Dill Sin, or ArrowMan, or Squeezus or Lou Cipher or simply the
letter Q?
Yours,
Brittanneous the Jocundular.
(...or perhaps...we are...many!)
----------
) From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
) To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
) Subject: Re: Free hallucinogenic drugs in your mailbox, (and make
$$$while your at it)
) Date: Thursday, 9 April 1998 1:16
)
) Someone calling themselves danielg writes:
)
) )Dear Waldorf Critics,
) )
) )I thought it might be nice to give you some fodder to play with, throw
some
) )meat to the squirrels so to speak...(it seems to me that this list is
very
) )good at the circular...)
) )
) )I would just like to shout at the top of my lungs (in the most here I am
) )manner which dear father Lucifee has taught me so well...)
) )
) )I am the outcome of Waldorf Education...I have been indoctrinated by its
) )evil devious ways..
)
) [snip]
)
) )..and so my big
) )question is......if you are so anti WE, what is your alternative to
) )alternative education?
) )
) )I would very much like to hear what your ideas on an ideal and practical
) )education would be, indeed I would rather like a complete theory of
) )education circulated before any more ANTI comments are made.
) )
) )I would also appreciate it if the first reply to this post is a direct
) )attack at me (feel free to extract any piece of vagabond text), and it
) )would really be the icing on the cake if someone could tell me how wrong
) )and deluded I am and how right and virtuous they are.
) )
) )A challenge than...
) )
) )Yours,
) )
) )Brittanus the Joyed, vagabond in a city of vagrants.
)
)
) KOPP says:
)
) Pretty fine writing, son, typical of most of the ravings of former
Steiner/
) Waldorf/ Anthroposophical students.
)
) That is, if you're not really Tom Mellet in disguise, and faking an email
) address in Australia!
)
) Yet the question of what an education should be -- stardard OR
alternative
) -- is an interesting one, and I think most of us who have experience of
) both would have some ideas worth discussing. I for one have been doing a
) lot of thinking about it lately, as well as reading widely about the
) philosophy of eucation.
)
) But I'm not gonna do it until our friend "Britannus the Joyed" tells us
who
) he really is, and gives us some more info about himself and his SWA
) associations.
)
) Come on, danielg or britannus or whatever you are, sign yourself
properly.
)
) We've had one bout of anonymity on this list that didn't go too well, and
) that doesn't include my initial posts through the moderator which I
) requested not to sign because of possible retaliation from my Steiner
) school.
)
) But see, _I_ came clean -- I really AM Michael Kopp, not Lucifer or
Ahriman.
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n715 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n716 --------------
001 - angelica hesse (hesse96 m - Re: CULT/ST RUDY/inflammatory-ness
002 - angelica hesse (hesse96 m - Re: Max's kindergarten
003 - angelica hesse (hesse96 m - HOw vs. WHY
004 - snell netshel.net - Former WE grads..
005 - Michael Kopp (mkopp actri - Re: Max's kindergarten
006 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - Re: Waldorf teachers
007 - Robert Flannery (litvas i - Re: Speaking of deplorable treatment..
008 - Angelica (hesse96 matrix. - Re: Former WE grads..
009 - "Joe & Lynn Tobin (Laura - Re: CULT/ST RUDY/inflammatory-ness
010 - "Cymen Vig" (cymen ziplin - heart pump thing / newcomer observation (long)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n716.1 ---------------
From: angelica hesse (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: Re: CULT/ST RUDY/inflammatory-ness
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:55:55 -0400 (EDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In-Reply-To: (199804082129.OAA22752 lists1.best.com) from "Michael Kopp" at Apr 9, 98 09:28:52 am
) KOPP says:
) If the cult fits, wear it. I don't usually call Steiner/ Waldorf/
) Anthroposophy a cult, I say it is cult-like. This debate has raged here
) before many times. There is good reason for considering SWA cult-like, in
) the formal senses of the word. Hesses is welcome to rattle skeletons of
) Jonestown and Heaven's Gate, but cults can be damaging to people without
) being suicidal. If Hesse wants to feel offended, that's her privilege. The
) use of the term is not intended -- by me, at least -- to offend, but to
) characterise are nearly as possible the nature of the SWA movement.
HOw, then do you characterize the word 'cult', if not in a relatively
derogatory and completely unsympathetic manner.
) I reject yet again Hesse's desire to "move away from criticism". My
) criticism may be more strident than most, but that's because I'm not a
) disinterested, academic observer. I was a participant, and wronged
) grievously. But I am not bitter, just angry and seeking justice, which, in
) my view, includes exposing and criticising SWA exceeses, falsehoods,
) duplicity and mumbo-jumbo. If Hesse can't stick to those arguments, she
) belongs on another list that is more friendly to SWA.
I don't have a problem with discussing aspects of WE taht may truly need
changing. What I have a problem with is attacks for their own sake. I
recognize, and sympathize with the maltreatment you have apparently
received. What i here behind your complaints is that are upset with teh
individual, interpersonal treatment you received by members of your
particular school. That means soemthing very different than the idea that
all teh schools are corrupt and completely negative. Obviously, what
happened to you is somethign that needs addressing. I woudln't deny that.
In fact, if it continued to happen, it would be doing a great disservice,
including to WE itself. Nobody wants this sort of treatment to be the norm:
neither people liek yourself, nor those of us who support waldorf.
Not that that my personal beliefs are terribly relevant to WE in general,
but since you asked, I'll answer:
) 1. Do you mean to say by the above that you personally believe in clairvoyance?
) 2. Do you mean to say by the above that you personally believe Rudolf Steiner
) did achieve clairvoyance?
Yes, I personally believe both of the above. If I didnt', I wouldnt' be
putting much stake in any of this. If I ever get there myself, which I
seriously doubt will happen in this life time, I'll let you know (if you're
interested!).... This may sound like a joke, but I'm actually dead serious.
) Now Hesse wants voluntary censorship.
Not censorship. I was only hoping for an atmosphere in which people could
express differing oppinions in a way thta others could respond sincerely
rather than diffensively.
) I refuse.
That, my friend, is your choice. I had hoped taht a more respectful
attitude could be taken by all (and I include myself in that).
) The use of terms like cult and St. Rudy are well within the guidelines of
) both Internet general netiquette and those of this list.
) When we agree not to offend one another with our views, then we lose the
) ability to have free, frank and meaningful dialogue.
I'm not referring to the views, but the language in which tehy are
expressed.
) Hesse says she wants to understand the real concerns of SWA critics. So far
) I see no evidence that she has understood any of the criticism. What I have
) seen so far fits the mold of what I earlier characterised on this list as a
) "defender of the faith".
I'm not denying that i too have been highly critical, defensive, even
possibly inflammatory. I've realized, however, that i was becomgin too
defensive for any productive discussion to take place (assuming that is a
goal here?). I also foudn the discussions were becoming truly
mean-spirited, emotionally draining, nad dissatisfying (after the mental
adrenylin rush wore off).
) Making strong statements about one anothers' beliefs does not imply
) disrespect for that person as an individual human being with a right to
) believe anything they wish. I have that respect for Hesse. But I will not
) be muzzled by a call for that respect to include refraining from
) criticising, in strong terms, those beliefs and their basis, and the human
) institutions that practice them.
Strong statements dont' have to imply disrespect. The tone around here,
however, has been one of disrespect (on all sides). The attitude toward
those who place some faith in anthro ideas, etc, has been largely one of
scoffing at stupidity, incompetance, ignorance, naivite, gullibleness, etc.
All of these imply strong disrespect, and complete lack of understanding,
and lack of willingness to understand. IT is with this that I take issue.
(and i continue to recognize my own part in the way this has developed, but
for that reason I have also chosen to try to turn things aroudn a bit).
Obviously, the choice of how to interact is one we all make for ourselves.
Ideally, we would choose methods that woudl enable everyone to gain
something by participating here. Ideally, needs on both side of these
arguments could be addressed and somethign productive coudl develop (both on
the list, and in the education world in general).
But perhaps this isn't
what people want. Maybe mud-slinging and name-callign is actually the goal
here. Is this list intended to be an effort at social/educational reform,
or is it en masse therapy for injured egos?
earnestly,
Angelica G. Hesse
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n716.2 ---------------
From: angelica hesse (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: Re: Max's kindergarten
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:57:51 -0400 (EDT)
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In-Reply-To: (199804082137.OAA00220 lists1.best.com) from "Michael Kopp" at Apr 9, 98 09:35:40 am
) )My parents started the Davis waldorf school with others so my sister wouldn't
) )have to commute the hour each way as I had for 10 years. My dad eventually
) )found the 'inner circle' too much to bear and quit. He was far too practical
) )for their ideology. So I empathize with those on this list who have come up
) )against WE ideology and lost (something, maybe).
) )ezra
)
) KOPP says:
)
) Gosh, how about a little sympathy for the strident Kopp? Or do angry people
) not rate any?
Ideally, yes they do. Its' hard, however, as flawed human beings, to look
beyond anger and nastiness to see the pain from which they spring....
Angelica
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n716.3 ---------------
From: angelica hesse (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: HOw vs. WHY
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 23:19:34 -0400 (EDT)
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In-Reply-To: (199804072029.NAA02715 lists1.best.com) from "Ezra Beeman" at Apr 7, 98 01:21:01 pm
) All apologies A. but I have thought long and hard about this and I conclude that
) why is always irrelevent and usually downright harmfull. How is a much more
) usefull description that is not fraught with the metaphysics of why. Try it out.
) Everytime you seek explanation, instead of posing why does it happen, try posing
) how does it happen. I'll bet you lead a happier and more productive life.(This is
) all tongue in cheek mind you)
) Seriously, there is something about why as a description that invites
) interpretation.
Yes, I suppose it does invite enterpretation, or else really, really
scrupulous objectivity, despite the temptations... Perhaps for you 'how' is
sufficient, but for me it's simply not. It fails to explain the meaning of
teh world. It fails to explain the purpose of life. It fails to explain
why I am here, and what I am doing and for waht purpose. To my mind, it
fails to exlain why the whole darn world shoudl even be here. I can't
accept that there isn't a reason. The world is too well designed.
) How is not only as interesting as why, it is more relevent.
Like I've said, I think ti depends on waht one sees as relevant.
) Stop reading the paper, Oppenheimer did, exposing oneself to media product is
) masochistic. The front page of the WSJ is my idea of how to write about the
) news. (please don't bother to comment)
Actually, I try to ignore the news for the most part. It makes me a bit
ignorant, and incapable of discussing current events, but it certainly makes
me a happier person....
Angelica G. Hesse
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n716.4 ---------------
From: snell netshel.net
Subject: Former WE grads..
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 21:15:00 -0800
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It seems that we have been honored with a few Waldorf graduates on our list
of late. I have been wondering about the issue of boys verses girls in
Waldorf.
How many boys and girls went all of the way through the grades in your
Waldorf school?
Did you notice more boys leaving than girls through the years? Why do you
think this occured?
Did you notice more girls left than boys? Why do you think this occured?
Thanks,
Debra
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n716.5 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: Re: Max's kindergarten
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 16:20:31 +1200
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References: (199804070924.CAA07853 lists1.best.com)
(199804070504.WAA20058 lists1.best.com)
(199804070430.VAA17591 lists1.best.com)
(199804071937.MAA11915 lists1.best.com)
(199804080538.WAA03198 lists1.best.com)
(199804082137.OAA00220 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199804082233.PAA22447 lists1.best.com)
Ezra Beeman wrote:
)) KOPP says:
))
)) Gosh, how about a little sympathy for the strident Kopp? Or do angry people
)) not rate any?
)
)I am sympathetic to your cause as well, and all for accountability on the
)part of
)WE, public and private. I feel that publically funded or no, they should be
)accountable for a certain level of education. If they want to meet those
)goals
)using veil painting or myths or whatever, more power to them.It is shamefull,
)legally and educationally, that there is no oversight in NZ.
)
)Ezra Beeman
KOPP says:
Thanks.
BTW, there IS legal and educational oversight of at least the one Steiner
school to which my children formerly went, but it is ineffectual. One of my
goals by continuing my Internet interest in the subject of Steiner/
Waldorf/ Anthropsopophical education is to both inform my continuing
campaign for accountability by both my former school and the overseers, and
to report on that campaign (a slow one) to forums which may have an
interest in the subject.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n716.6 ---------------
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: Waldorf teachers
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 00:44:08 -0700
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)I get a 404 error on both those urls.
)ezra
)
)Debra Snell wrote:
)Sure,
)
)) http://www.waldorfcritics.org/articles/rsc_reading_list.html
)) http://www.waldorfcritics.org/articles/rsc_2nd_year_requirements.html
)) Debra
Jeez, just go to the PLANS page, (http://www.waldorfcritics.org), go down
to the Articles list, and click on the title of either one of these
articles. These URL's were not designed to be typed by humans! Long
computer codes should be left to computers to type. That's why hyperlinks
were invented.
(Anthroposophists say: Ahriman, you're working for me.)
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n716.7 ---------------
From: Robert Flannery (litvas icu.com)
Subject: Re: Speaking of deplorable treatment..
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 03:53:41 -0400
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References: (199804082244.PAA05898 lists1.best.com)
(199804080922.CAA18582 lists1.best.com) from "Michael Kopp" at Apr 8, 98
10:20:58 am (199804082019.NAA22048 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199804090009.RAA25846 lists1.best.com)
)I have yet to experience the emotional acting out on this list that I've
)witnessed in my own community.
(snip long list of bad behavior in Grass Valley)
)I think these folks could make us appreciate Michael. He is admittedly
)angry, but he combines it with intelligence and logic. There is also a
)safety shield with e-mail. Dealing with intensely angry people in person is
)a real experience.
)Debra
Speaking for myself, dealing with intensely angry people (or even intensely
calm people) via email is a real experience, too. I take all of these
conversations just as seriously as I would if we were meeting face-to-face.
The intelligence or rationality of another's comments does not serve to
mitigate language which is disrespectful or condescending.
Without trying to diminish the impact of what you face in your community, I
don't see that it is relevant to any standards of decorum on this or any
other list.
Finally, I would agree with your implication that Michael Kopp is not the
meanest person in the world.
Robert Flannery
New York
litvas icu.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n716.8 ---------------
From: Angelica (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: Re: Former WE grads..
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 10:16:44 -0400
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References: (199804090414.VAA27744 lists1.best.com)
In my school, almost the entire class went through all the way. We were
in fact larger at graduation than we started (most classes got
smaller). Some of this is generally attributed to our having had an
excellent class teacher. In the early years, a number of children
added/dropped. Everyone from eight grade went on to highschool, and
more came from other schools. During highschool, maybe 3-5 left (soem
dropped out of school, others moved away, one went to community college
a year early). We always had more girls than boys in our class, but the
ratio stayed pretty consistent throughout. In one class, below us,
which consisted of a lot of jaded teacher's children, several boys left
in 9th grade for public school, but returned the following year saying
they hated it. The became remarkably decent guys by graduation, which
was a pleasant surprise, cause they were quite a nasty bunch before
that.
On the whole however, I tend to notice a that girls do relatively better
when compared to to main stream education (with the exception, most
likely, of all-girl academies).
Angelica G. Hesse
) It seems that we have been honored with a few Waldorf graduates on our list
) of late. I have been wondering about the issue of boys verses girls in
) Waldorf.
)
) How many boys and girls went all of the way through the grades in your
) Waldorf school?
)
) Did you notice more boys leaving than girls through the years? Why do you
) think this occured?
)
) Did you notice more girls left than boys? Why do you think this occured?
)
) Thanks,
) Debra
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n716.9 ---------------
From: "Joe & Lynn Tobin (Laura & April too!)" (jaltobin webspan.net)
Subject: Re: CULT/ST RUDY/inflammatory-ness
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 12:24:42 -0400
Lark Jarvis wrote:
)
) I have a question for Michael Kopp--two, actually. First, are you always
) this rude and intentionally inflammatory? Not having been on the list for
) very long, I have nothing to compare your latest posts to, but I must say,
) on any other list to which I've ever been subbed, such blatant name-calling
) and immaturity would not be tolerated. It's simply not productive, no
) matter how "life and death" the issue may seem.
)
) Secondly, (and this is the one that really interests me) what in your
) personal life-situation provokes such anger/hostility/taking all this so
) seriously? Are you one of those people who's received threatening phone
) calls, all that? If so, I'm really sorry. It amazes me the lengths that
) people will go to make strange, life-and-death controversies where there
) are none. I have "no dog in this fight," (as we used to say in small town
) Texas), but I do wonder--if WE offends/threatens you so much, why not just
) leave it to those who find it functional, and walk away and get a life?
)
) And, again, I'm not "Hesse" (Angelica, to those of us who are "playing
) nicely"! ;) but I will take an unsolicited stab at your two questions:
)
) )1. Do you mean to say by the above that you personally believe in
) clairvoyance?
) )
) In short, I believe that the boundaries between one human being and
) another, or between past and present, are not always straight-forward and
) impenetrable (I'm definitely not a scientist, but it is my understanding
) that quantum physics points somewhat in these same directions, for what
) it's worth). I admit that "unexplainable" phenomena exist, but I don't
) give it a whole heck of a lot of thought/consideration/planning in my daily
) life. To do so would be to try to create a religious belief system where
) one is not needed . . .
)
) )2. Do you mean to say by the above that you personally believe Rudolf Steiner
) ) did achieve clairvoyance?
)
) I have no idea about Steiner, but I will say, as a bodywork professional
) (who's been, BTW, quite a skeptic around the "crystal-hugging, New Age
) crowd in general), that there are many, many people who seem to have very
) well-developed intuitive senses (almost to the point of complete
) boundarylessness of ego, etc.). While this can at times be somewhat
) helpful, I wouldn't say it's wise to actually *cultivate* such skills--in
) fact, most people who seem to have "clairvoyant," intuitive faculties are
) often people who have very serious histories of childhood abuse and
) neglect. People with traumatic histories of very serious boundary
) violations, and who have the need for the development of super-human
) survival instincts, in other words. So, at risk of being inflammatory, is
) it possible that Steiner himself was one of these people? The literature
) always takes such care to present him as having had wonderful, perfect
) parents, but methinks they doth protest a bit too much. It very much
) bears mentioning that *if* he did have such all-nurturing, understanding
) parents and upbringing, then he was certainly an anomaly in his historical
) period and geographical region . . . In any case, that's what my rational,
) liberally educated mind can deduce about the whole situation . . . . I just
) want to know how it all plays out in Real Life, in the late 20th Century.
)
) Again, though, Michael, I'm sorry if I missed your original intro
) postings--would you mind recapping what your injurious experience with WE
) was? I don't at all doubt that it happened, whatever it was, but I'm a bit
) perplexed as to the level of your vehemence. Explain, please, for a
) clueless newbie? Also, it bears mentioning--this is an informal EMAIL list.
) As such, noone who posts here should be made to feel that he or she is
) posting some sort of scholarly dissertation. I'm not interested in
) scholarly sorts of mental masturbation/philosophical-religious debate, but
) rather real life stories of real people who have experienced real Waldorf
) Schools or other Anthroposophical ventures. If you wish to continue to
) critique each post on grounds of composition and spelling as opposed to
) content, please let me know, and I'd be happy to direct you to the
) copy-editors' list.
)
) Lark in Portland
Dear Lark and other readers,
I have been following the submissions here with some interest and
thought that perhaps I might add my observations based on graduate
research I have on Steinter and Waldorf education. Contrary to Lark in
Portland, I have no problem with using this forum for scholarly debate
of religious and philosophical viewpoints as well as dissemination of
the facts, as we know them from verifiable sources. Lark raises a very
valid point about the increased intuitive abilities of abused children
and proposes that such could have been the case with Rudolf Steiner, to
have given him the clairvoyance and knowledge of a "supersensible" world
that he claimed to have. In my research, I have not seen much to
support Lark's contention that Steiner had wonderful parents. It may be
that anthroposophists have written this to be the case, but it is not
borne out by Steiner himself, who wrote very little about his parents
and only referred to his mother with the statement that she had very
little help with domestic chores, in the way of time-saving gadgets. He
thought that shedding light on this part of his life served no useful
purpose. You can corroborate this information from a doctoral
dissertation by Ursula Marcum (1989) entitled "Rudolf Steiner: An
Intellectual Biography". It is interesting that Dr. Marcum deliberately
did not consult with anthroposophists in her research and I believe she
presents a very thorough and balanced picture of Steiner's life and
influences. In his parents defense, however, they did make sacrifices
to see that he received a Viennese high school education worthy of his
intellectual ability. As to whether he himself was abused, that will
likely never be known, although we do know he was a shy, introverted
child, shunned by local children largely on the basis of his parents
being "foreign" and newcomers to the area he lived in as a child. He
even admitted that he did not play regular games with other children,
and learned them only in his twenties, likely when he was tutoring
younger students.
I find it also interesting that Steiner credits this his tutoring
students with shaping his pegagogial theories; it was like his "lab" for
educational ideas that he picked up from professors and his own
philosophical leanings. He also borrowed from current educational
practice of the time and admired Pestalozzi, with his emphasis on a
warm, welcoming environment for the child as a prerequisite for an
educational experience. It is interesting that he incorporated many
ideas from earlier giants in the educational field, but I have yet to
read anything from an anthroposophical viewpoint that recognizes this;
Steiner himself at least gave Pestalozzi his due! Some authors on
Waldorf education would have you believe that Steiner invented his
system in an atmosphere of a brutal, rigid school system, which may have
been the case in some areas and at some times, but they neglect to
observe that the kindergarten (a Froebelian invention) was
well-established in Europe in the late 1800's, and the "Modern school
movement", which stressed letting children have freedom from
authoritarian teachers was also a reality in the very early 1900's.
Whether Steiner consciously borrowed ideas from these and other thinkers
is not always clear but I think it is important to realize that he was
an intellectual, well-connected with other intellectuals of his time and
that his ideas did not emerge out of a vacuum. What is of conern to me
with his tutoring, is that he may have drawn conclusions too broadly
from limited experience with children, some of whom were admittedly
"slow learners", otherwise they would not have been needing the services
of a tutor. Perhaps this should raise some questions about the
populations his methods should best serve This is not intended as a
criticism because I think many of his pegogogical techniques are
extremely well-suited to kinesthetic learners: those who are physically
active and learn well through movement.
Historical context is important for other reasons. Much criticism has
been levelled here about Steiner's mystical leanings, his being open to
spirtual realms. In his earlier years, his association with the
Theosophy society, of which he was the General Secretary of the German
branch, certainly led to his break with his colleagues in academic
circles, who could not comprehend the belief system or his reasons for
being drawn to it. Steiner maintains that he was contacted very early
in his life, in a train station, by a woman who appeared to him and then
disappeared into a furnace. He maintained a strong belief in the
validity of this apparition. Perhaps it was this and the isolation from
his peers that made it possible for him to be open to theosophical
beliefs to the detriment of his friendships with academics, many of whom
he was not getting along with, anyway. It is important, though, to
understand that the last half of the 19th century saw a spiritualist
craze that swept Europe, with many intellectuals and paragons of society
delving into hypnotism, telepathy, telekinesis, clairvoyance, etc. The
foundations for these activities can even be traced back further, to the
writings of Jacob Boehme (1575-1624), who in turn influenced the
afore-mentiond Friedrich Froebel, founder of the kindergarten. There is
nothing new under the sun, it seems! Getting back to my mentioning
historical context, Steiner was in some ways, ahead of his time, but he
was also very much a man of his time and not immune to the fervor
sweeping the salons. He, too, got caught up in the excitement over the
ability to contact other spiritual realms and although he eventually
broke with theosophy over their ridiculous proposal that they had found
the reincarnation of Christ in the person of a Hindu boy, Krishnamurti,
he did incoroporate some principles into his own philosophy of
anthroposophy.
Steiner would not be surprised by the debate going on in these pages,
because even in his own time, he saw anthroposophy drawing hostility and
oppostion from critics. As a belief system, I have no problem with it.
As the philosophical underpinning for an educational system, I have some
real concerns. Unfortunately, some of Steiner's original ideas seem to
have been "carved in stone" in Waldorf schools, as if all "revelation"
ended with his death in 1925. This is a phenomenon not limited to
Waldorf schools, I might add. You can also witness this in strict
Montessori circles (not AMS, but AMI). So, perhaps this is more a human
failing than a slavish devotion to a cult leader, but this does NOT
excuse its existence in a public educational setting, where emphasis
should be on cultivating children's potential as well as exposing them
to the best information available at the time. Do all teachers teach
only what they themselves learned as children? Because if they did,
where older staff are concerned, there would be no computers in schools
and we might all be learning shorthand. Perhaps Steiner disagreed with
Einstein's theories (quite likely he didn't fully understand them), but
I can't agree with current Waldorf practice of burying one's head in the
sand and ignoring current information that contradicts his assertions in
the biological and physical sciences.
I am sure there will be those who will argue that perhaps Steiner was
right and we just haven't achieved his vision to see it. That is
unfortunately a major problem with his theory; the inability to
corroborate it. Because Steiner said it, with great conviction and
charisma, it must be so? He was a dynamic speaker and he certainly got
around to spread his message. But, I am haunted by a quote from one of
his early students that he tutored, which can also be found in Marcum's
dissertation. He writes this about the twenty-year old Steiner,
... he uttered an idea as an axiom and them twisted his evidence
until finally everything seemed to fit. I do not believe that he
ever reached an idea or a theory in a deductive way. The last
link in the chain certainly was his primary idea; but then
everything was carried together and fitted in which would ratify
it, everything was eliminated which would disprove it. He was
a fanatic of his idea.
It sounds disturbing, but should be realized that most educational
theorists were pretty fanatical about their ideas, in order to set them
in motion. However, fanatasicm tends to be tempered eventually by those
putting the ideas into practice with children, and rightly so, because
fanatics can be rigid and unable to see anyone else's point of view. I
would hope that this does not describe the Waldorf educators of today.
L. Tobin
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From: "Cymen Vig" (cymen ziplink.net)
Subject: heart pump thing / newcomer observation (long)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 11:35:43 -0500
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)Anthroposophy will never be able to rid itself of "the heart is not a
)pump" because nobody except Saint Rudy has the authority to change the
)scriptures (e.g., the "four lectures" or the "ten lectures").
It seems like something very important is missing from these
discussions - why does this matter? I don't think any high school
student is going to accept everything taught to them as fact. I
believe the "heart is not a pump" was brought up in the Chicago
Waldorf High School. I remember asking why this was such a big
deal because the teacher seemed to be stressing it a bit and it
did sound a bit odd. Of course it did happen to agree with the
explanation from the sophomore biology (advanced placement if we
care to know) class I took at a Catholic high school (St. Patricks in
Chicago). The text book mentions the contracting of veins/arteries
(can't remember which, maybe I'll have time to dig out a quote or
two) and how these help the flow of blood. The teacher at Waldorf
mentioned this too and it was part of the central idea - a scientific
fact. (see http://www.ziplink.net/~cymen/other/heart.htm for a
very quickly hacked together piece with diagrams).
I would like to address a broader issue though. Do we not all
know that anyone can take quotes out of context? Can people not
also string these quotes together to represent a meaning other than
the other intended? Every movement has central tenants that followers
(not such a great word maybe) agree with or at least find interesting
enough to stay. It would also seem that every movement also has
problems. One example is some of the strange things Steiner has
written/said. Anyone can take all the "bad" things, link them
together, rally around them, and create a very bad image of a
movement.
I personally do not know much about Anthroposophy even though
I have a Waldorf teacher for a parent and have attended a Waldorf
school for the total of 12 or 13 years. I would like to know more but
find that it is very hard to get any sort of "Introduction to Anthroposphy"
text or class/workgroup. At a youth conference held in East Troy, WI
in '95 (?) I suggested that we have such a workgroup at the next
conference. It was then suggested to me that perhaps I would like to lead
such a class - something I don't believe I would be comfortable with
because I have such a lack of understanding/knowledge of Anthroposophy.
I am pretty skeptical by nature. I could see how people could really
misunderstand Waldorf/Anthro. because it is a very different place than
mainstream America/Whatever. There is probably always going to be
people with axes to grind (some of the people on this list?) and because
"they" are so unwilling to even *imagine* another way of thinking then
their own those of us who are open to other ideas can really do very little
productive things *here*. The only really valuable reason to be on this
list
is to see common misconceptions and prepare to deal with them and
attempt to make things clear.
So why are *you* here?
Cymen - cymen at ziplink.net
p.s.
I apologize for the length of this email ;-).
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n716 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n717 --------------
001 - snell netshel.net - Re: Speaking of deplorable treatment..
002 - A (downeast lefca.com) - Who is Danielg?
003 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Heart in Main Lesson Book
004 - Herman de Tollenaere (her - Re: Racism (was: Heart as pump, etc....)
005 - Robert Flannery (litvas i - Re: Speaking of deplorable treatment..
006 - "Joel A. Wendt" (hermit m - Re: CULT/ST RUDY/inflammatory-ness
007 - Herman de Tollenaere (her - Montessori (was: CULT/ST RUDY/inflammatory-ness)
008 - "Joel A. Wendt" (hermit m - Re: Chronology
009 - "Danielg" (danielg nectar - Re: Who is Danielg?
010 - Robert Flannery (litvas i - Re: Racism (was: Heart as pump, etc....)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n717.1 ---------------
From: snell netshel.net
Subject: Re: Speaking of deplorable treatment..
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 09:58:27 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199804090009.RAA25846 lists1.best.com)
(199804082244.PAA05898 lists1.best.com)
(199804080922.CAA18582 lists1.best.com) from "Michael Kopp" at Apr 8, 98
10:20:58 am (199804082019.NAA22048 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199804090744.AAA13010 lists1.best.com)
Robert Flannery writes,
)Speaking for myself, dealing with intensely angry people (or even intensely
)calm people) via email is a real experience, too. I take all of these
)conversations just as seriously as I would if we were meeting face-to-face.
)The intelligence or rationality of another's comments does not serve to
)mitigate language which is disrespectful or condescending.
Trust me, there is a _big_ difference between e-mail and personal assaults.
Say anything you want to me via my computer, I may feel an emotional
reaction, but I don't feel fear. I have felt _fear_ in many situations
within my community. Doesn't mean that I'll stop because of it, but my
family/friends have expressed their concern for my safety _many_ times.
)Without trying to diminish the impact of what you face in your community, I
)don't see that it is relevant to any standards of decorum on this or any
)other list.
HINT: Anytime you start off a sentence in this manner, you are likely
guilty of doing what you are "trying" not to do.
)Finally, I would agree with your implication that Michael Kopp is not the
)meanest person in the world.
Maybe we're getting somewhere here, Robert. You have conceeded that Michael
is not a Mother Raper or Father Stabber. That is a start.
Debra
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n717.2 ---------------
From: A (downeast lefca.com)
Subject: Who is Danielg?
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 13:53:14 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199804090213.TAA11559 lists1.best.com)
Danielg wrote:
) (If you are so interested why don't you do a search on my e-mail
) address and pickup the trail...)
)
Danielg is Daniel Grinvalds and he has placed the following
notice on aus.ads.jobs:
Student seeking part-time employment, available approximately 20-30 hours
per week.
Experienced in Intra/Internet Technologies, Help Systems and
Relational Database Development.
Studied in Technical Writing, Business Writing and Public Relations
Consulting.
Companies include - CSC Parramatta Services and CSC Desktop Services
Circular Quay, International Technology Publishing PTY. LTD., Database
Techniques PTY. LTD. and LeftFoot Multimedia.
Work interests lie in the development of complete Help Systems using HDK,
PDF and Intranet Technologies and the development of internal/external
Public Relations Plans.
If you have any requirements, please contact,
Daniel Grinvalds
0414 78 10 78
Danielg nectar.com.au
Since this notice was in a public forum on Usenet,
I don't think I'm breaching any copyright restrictions
Charlie
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n717.3 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Heart in Main Lesson Book
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 11:13:03 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199804080922.CAA18582 lists1.best.com) from "Michael Kopp" at
Apr 8, 98 10:20:58 am (199804082019.NAA22048 lists1.best.com) (199804082303.QAA29446 lists1.best.com)
No, the statement wasn't directed at you. I was speaking to various list
outbursts, fingerpointing and namecalling.
ezra
snell netshel.net wrote:
) )Given the equally deplorable treatment found on this list, I don't blame them.
) )ezra
) )
) )
) )) I wish they would
) )) participate on the list.
) )) Debra
)
) Err, I'm going to choose not to take this statement personally, Ezra.
) Debra
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n717.4 ---------------
From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Re: Racism (was: Heart as pump, etc....)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 20:30:35 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 07:02 PM 6/4/98 -0400, Robert Flannery wrote:
)I suppose there are about 100-150 waldorf schools in the Netherlands,
Actually, less than a 100.
)and this documented activity would lead one to conclude that perhaps somewhere
)between 5-15% of the Dutch schools have suffered the teaching of racial
)stereotypes.
Not more than 5-15%? Remember, Max Stibbe, *the* founder of Waldorf
education in The Netherlands, actively encouraged 'teaching of racial
stereotypes.'
)I don't think anyone can claim that what Herman is describing
)could be viewed as a "majority position", even in Dutch waldorf schools.
The The Hague Waldorf school, founded by Stibbe in the 1920s, and described
in Trouw daily, is the "mother school", model for later schools, for Dutch
Waldorf education. See also the special issue with articles by Stibbe and
others on 'races' of Vrije Opvoedkunst, the Dutch Waldorf magazine, in 1961.
A recent report by a committee of the Dutch Anthroposophical Society
admitted that today, that issue's authors would be punished under
anti-racist laws.
For those who read Dutch:
Photocopies of the 1961 special issue on races of Vrije Opvoedkunst, 75
pages A5, are available for 10 Dutch guilders copying and mailing costs:
send them to Postbank account 5349231 of Muurkrantkollektief, Den Bosch, The
Netherlands, mentioning 'sofen 1961'; making it possible to see for oneself
whether charges of racism are true. For 15 Dutch guilders, you will get
photocopies of the special February 1965 issue about races of 'Vrije
Opvoedkunst' (90 pages A5); mentioning 'sofen 1965'.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n717.5 ---------------
From: Robert Flannery (litvas icu.com)
Subject: Re: Speaking of deplorable treatment..
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 16:17:57 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (199804090744.AAA13010 lists1.best.com)
(199804090009.RAA25846 lists1.best.com)
(199804082244.PAA05898 lists1.best.com)
(199804080922.CAA18582 lists1.best.com) from "Michael Kopp" at Apr 8, 98
10:20:58 am (199804082019.NAA22048 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199804091703.KAA24162 lists1.best.com)
))Without trying to diminish the impact of what you face in your community, I
))don't see that it is relevant to any standards of decorum on this or any
))other list.
)
)HINT: Anytime you start off a sentence in this manner, you are likely
)guilty of doing what you are "trying" not to do.
OK, I'll say it differently.
I don't see that your problems with the locals in Grass Valley have
anything to do with standards of decorum on this list.
A few people have raised the issue of Michael's behavior and the tone of
his posts. Talking about your run-ins in this instance is just a lame
excuse to throw a few more bricks at waldorf. It really has nothing to do
with the topic being discussed--list decorum. It's just another effort by
you to throw something out which falls under the general heading of
"waldorf supporters will harrass anyone who actively challenges their
belief system."
Now, I can't speak for what's really happening in your neck of the woods.
I can say that so far as this list is concerned, Michael Kopp has
consistently tried to demean and ridicule those who support or show
interest in Steiner, waldorf, anthroposophy and virtually anything else
which does not fit into his personal belief system.
Michael Kopp has every right to do this, by the way. However, I do think
it's crass of you to try to defend him by talking about what the anthropops
are doing to you at home.
I should also point out that I too have tried to demean and ridicule on
occasion. Most recently, I referred to David McKay's posts as "dotage". I
should apologize to David right now, and I will. I have regretted posting
such things each and every time I've done it.
There have been waldorf supporters on this list in the past who have posted
with dry and biting sarcasm. There have been no such folks who have ever
posted with the consistent venom and attack-dog mentality of Michael Kopp.
If it is true that "waldorf supporters will harrass anyone who actively
challenges their belief system", why has Michael Kopp represented the
lowest common denominator since the inception of the list?
There's never been anyone like him, on either side, before or since. If
you doubt it, just read the archives.
Robert Flannery
New York
litvas icu.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n717.6 ---------------
From: "Joel A. Wendt" (hermit microweb.com)
Subject: Re: CULT/ST RUDY/inflammatory-ness
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 13:18:33 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199804090257.TAA19902 lists1.best.com)
angelica hesse wrote:
Maybe mud-slinging and name-callign is actually the goal
) here. Is this list intended to be an effort at social/educational reform,
) or is it en masse therapy for injured egos?
Nice point Angelica! Good for you!
joel wendt
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n717.7 ---------------
From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Montessori (was: CULT/ST RUDY/inflammatory-ness)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 22:24:19 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 12:24 PM 9/4/98 -0400, Lynn Tobin wrote:
)Unfortunately, some of Steiner's original ideas seem to
)have been "carved in stone" in Waldorf schools, as if all "revelation"
)ended with his death in 1925. This is a phenomenon not limited to
)Waldorf schools, I might add. You can also witness this in strict
)Montessori circles (not AMS, but AMI).
Excuse my ignorance of abbreviations in the US: what does AMI stand for? Has
it any links to "Montessori International" schools, linked to Summit
Lighthouse/Church Universal and Triumphant of Elizabeth Claire Prophet
(another offshoot of Theosophy; its reputation of being a cult is definitely
worse than Anthroposophy; more info: see
http://www.stelling.nl/simpos/summitli.htm)?
Thanks in advance.
Best wishes,
Herman de Tollenaere
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n717.8 ---------------
From: "Joel A. Wendt" (hermit microweb.com)
Subject: Re: Chronology
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 14:33:40 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199804070632.XAA01246 lists1.best.com) (199804071815.LAA00710 lists1.best.com)
Ezra,
I'll make a stab at some of your questions. My books are in storage in
New England, so I can't double check, and will have to go with the well
known inconsistencies of memory. Maybe others will help correct what I
may mis-state.
joel wendt
Ezra Beeman wrote:
)
) A few questions to shed some light on the relationship of Anthroposophy and
) WE. Could someone please tell me a few simple things like when Steiner was
) born, when he died [1861-1925], when the Waldorf cigar company contracted him to formulate
) their educational curriculum
[He gave a couple of lectures earlier, on education in more general,
but about 1919 Emil Molt (the owner of the Waldorf Cigarette Factory)
asked Steiner to found a school for the worker's children. This
involved helping find the first teachers and giving a number of lectures
to this original group. Steiner often gave what are called lecture
cycles, a group of coherent and related lectures, usually over a couple
of weeks, for a total of 10 or 12 lectures. Following the founding of
the school he continued to give lecture cycles on educational matters.
Some titles from memory: Discussions with Teachers; The Kingdom of
Childhood; Education; The Study of Man. There may have been a good
dozen titles of such cycles. As Dan no doubt knows, there is a large
liturature, from many teachers who have added from their experience over
the years. Of special note is Marjorie Spock's (Dr. Spock's sister):
Teaching as a Lively Art.
, when the seminal works of Anthroposophy were
) written
[Truth and Knowledge was his disertation, about 1882. Theory of
Knowledge Implicit in Goethe's World Conception, 1886 and The Philosophy
of Spiritual Activity, in 1894. These works are the foundations of all
of Steiner's later work, although the critics don't like to discuss them
with any depth (Dan throws some bald claims around once in a while).
Basically where he diverged from the main trends of his age was in the
realities and implications of what the activity of thinking was really
about. Once that step is taken, much else naturally follows. I have
tried a few times to get the list to treat these books with the
examination they deserve but, alas, this is not to be. It wasn't until
he was 42 (about 1904), that he began to speak publically about his
inner life, the clairvoyance that had been with him since childhood (See
his autobiography - partial - The Course of My Life). He wrote about 25
more books and gave some 6000 transcribed lectures over the remainder of
his life. Some people consider his "basic" books to be (besides The
Philosophy of Spiritual Activity): Knowledge of Higher Worlds and How to
Attain It; Theosophy; and Occult Science, an Outline. Valentin Tomberg
(who many consider to be Steiner's only "student" to have achieved the
same level of clairvoyance) taught that these three books had an inner
organic relationship, and if read in the right way would produce,
because of the effort requried, the same effect as certain inner
exercises.]
and lastly, when the Nazi's outlawed the Waldorf schools. [around 1935,
but I don't know the exact date. There is some material in the list
archives with details.]
) When the issue of dogma is raised in terms of the Anthroposophical movement, I
) often wonder how relevent it truly is to WE because it always seemed peripheral
) rather than central to my experience. I am certain that Waldorf, a very
) successfull company at the time, did not hire Steiner to conceive a remarkable
) education for them because he was an Anthroposophist, or a visionary.
[Steiner's "reputation" among his contemporaries has often been rudely
and innaccurately protrayed on this list, but it was precisely because
he was seen as a profoundly "wise" human being, the Molt went to him for
the founding of the School. There exist articles, even a biography of
Molt (I believe, again my memory is not perfect), that covers exactly
this question.]
Could
) you see AT&T, IBM or GM doing something similiar? The reason's he was hired
) are now in the realm of speculation, but there are a few that are safe to
) dismiss. This company could afford the very best.
) I was traveling last summer and read in some English language newspaper about a
) book that asserts that Goethe was in fact gay. Anyone familiar with this
) book? It seemed to be quite controversial, especially in Germnay where Goethe
) is still on something of a pedastal. From the by line I don't know if I am
) ready to buy the thesis, but it certainly wouldn't suprise me either. I think
) it must be as shocking to the German establishment as say Lord Keynes is to the
) UK.
) Ezra
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n717.9 ---------------
From: "Danielg" (danielg nectar.com.au)
Subject: Re: Who is Danielg?
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 10:14:29 +1000
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Well done Chuck!
So who wants to give me a job?
BtJ.
----------
) From: A (downeast lefca.com)
) To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
) Subject: Who is Danielg?
) Date: Friday, 10 April 1998 3:53
)
) Danielg wrote:
)
) ) (If you are so interested why don't you do a search on my e-mail
)
) ) address and pickup the trail...)
) )
)
) Danielg is Daniel Grinvalds and he has placed the following
) notice on aus.ads.jobs:
)
) Student seeking part-time employment, available approximately 20-30 hours
) per week.
) Experienced in Intra/Internet Technologies, Help Systems and
) Relational Database Development.
) Studied in Technical Writing, Business Writing and Public Relations
) Consulting.
) Companies include - CSC Parramatta Services and CSC Desktop Services
) Circular Quay, International Technology Publishing PTY. LTD., Database
) Techniques PTY. LTD. and LeftFoot Multimedia.
) Work interests lie in the development of complete Help Systems using HDK,
) PDF and Intranet Technologies and the development of internal/external
) Public Relations Plans.
) If you have any requirements, please contact,
) Daniel Grinvalds
) 0414 78 10 78
) Danielg nectar.com.au
)
) Since this notice was in a public forum on Usenet,
) I don't think I'm breaching any copyright restrictions
)
) Charlie
)
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n717.10 ---------------
From: Robert Flannery (litvas icu.com)
Subject: Re: Racism (was: Heart as pump, etc....)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 20:39:42 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199804091845.LAA08896 lists1.best.com)
)At 07:02 PM 6/4/98 -0400, Robert Flannery wrote:
)
))I suppose there are about 100-150 waldorf schools in the Netherlands,
)
)Actually, less than a 100.
Thanks for the clarification, Herman. Can you be more specific? 60
schools? 80? 95?
)
))and this documented activity would lead one to conclude that perhaps
))somewhere
))between 5-15% of the Dutch schools have suffered the teaching of racial
))stereotypes.
)
)Not more than 5-15%? Remember, Max Stibbe, *the* founder of Waldorf
)education in The Netherlands, actively encouraged 'teaching of racial
)stereotypes.'
Well, that certainly isn't conclusive of anything except what Max Stibbe
encouraged. After all, Rudolf Steiner, the founder of waldorf education
worldwide, encouraged teaching shorthand in waldorf schools, and that is
apparently even less in evidence than racial ethnography.
))I don't think anyone can claim that what Herman is describing
))could be viewed as a "majority position", even in Dutch waldorf schools.
)
)The The Hague Waldorf school, founded by Stibbe in the 1920s, and described
)in Trouw daily, is the "mother school", model for later schools, for Dutch
)Waldorf education.
OK, Herman, I'm with you so far, but did the Hague school teach racial
ethnography?
)See also the special issue with articles by Stibbe and
)others on 'races' of Vrije Opvoedkunst, the Dutch Waldorf magazine, in 1961.
)A recent report by a committee of the Dutch Anthroposophical Society
)admitted that today, that issue's authors would be punished under
)anti-racist laws.
Since I don't know Dutch, I'll accept your implication that Stibbe and his
buddies wrote some awful things 37 years ago.
I'm still unconvinced (and again, I thank you for providing the information
and look forward to hearing more). From what you've posted, it looks to
me like this whole scandal involved, at its height, about 10% of the
waldorf schools in the Netherlands.
While I don't mean to diminish your scholarship, my post was centered on a
supposition that the whole "racism and waldorf" issue is overblown, in
practical terms.
There has been a serious problem in some schools in the Netherlands. There
doesn't seem to be any other evidence that this type of miseducation is
practiced in any other waldorf school in the world, much less that waldorf
schools are overtly or covertly racist
So, I would suggest that what is up for debate is the nature of Rudolf
Steiner's racism. It doesn't seem to be an issue in the schools (aside
from the four you mentioned, Herman).
Robert Flannery
New York
litvas icu.com
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n717 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n718 --------------
001 - "Joe & Lynn Tobin (Laura - Re: Montessori (was: CULT/ST RUDY/inflammatory-ness)
002 - Angelica (hesse96 matrix. - Re: heart pump thing / newcomer observation (long)
003 - Angelica (hesse96 matrix. - Re: Speaking of deplorable treatment..
004 - spike (spike netshel.net) - Mumbo Jumbo: gibberish
005 - spike (spike netshel.net) - Waldorf Teacher Training
006 - spike (spike netshel.net) - Humanism vs. Spiritualism
007 - spike (spike netshel.net) - Humanism vs. Spiritualism
008 - lark involved.com (Lark J - My Camphill experience--and some questions
009 - lark involved.com (Lark J - Re: Waldorf Teacher Training
010 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: Waldorf Teacher Training
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n718.1 ---------------
From: "Joe & Lynn Tobin (Laura & April too!)" (jaltobin webspan.net)
Subject: Re: Montessori (was: CULT/ST RUDY/inflammatory-ness)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 21:47:25 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (199804092025.NAA25298 lists1.best.com)
Herman de Tollenaere wrote:
)
) At 12:24 PM 9/4/98 -0400, Lynn Tobin wrote:
)
) )Unfortunately, some of Steiner's original ideas seem to
) )have been "carved in stone" in Waldorf schools, as if all "revelation"
) )ended with his death in 1925. This is a phenomenon not limited to
) )Waldorf schools, I might add. You can also witness this in strict
) )Montessori circles (not AMS, but AMI).
)
) Excuse my ignorance of abbreviations in the US: what does AMI stand for? Has
) it any links to "Montessori International" schools, linked to Summit
) Lighthouse/Church Universal and Triumphant of Elizabeth Claire Prophet
) (another offshoot of Theosophy; its reputation of being a cult is definitely
) worse than Anthroposophy; more info: see
) http://www.stelling.nl/simpos/summitli.htm)?
)
) Thanks in advance.
)
) Best wishes,
)
) Herman de Tollenaere
I hope my comments about Montessori education are not misconstrued. My
meaning was that some educational pedagogies try to remain as close as
possible to the original intent of their founder. This is the case with
AMI, which is the original Montessori organization formed to train and
support the work of Maria Montessori. It stands for Assocation
Montessori Internazionale. An offshoot organization, AMS (American
Montessori Society) was formed here in the United States and has
incorporated methods in keeping with the needs of children here, and
seems to be open to innovations in a different way. I am not a
Montessorian and am forming my opinions as an observer of the system.
Perhaps I am not doing justice to either side. Neither group could be
considered a cult by any stretch of the imagination.
The parallel to Waldorf education is that its teachers seem to lose
some of their faculties of critical thinking during their teacher
training. This worries me because I believe it is essential that
teachers be able to help students develop this very skill: assessing
viewpoints, dogma, arguments with a critical eye and forming their own
opinions. I am not sure whether Waldorf educators would agree, because
of Steiner's views on the need of the 7-14 year-old child for an
authority figure which frees them from the need to make their own
decisions, when they should be living fully in the "feeling" world. So,
when that very authority figure, the teacher, is espousing vague and
incorrect scientific principles, these children will likely not feel
comfortable challenging their opinion. If it is up to the individual
teacher to decide how to teach the science components, then perhaps they
could update their information and bring it into the 20th century.
L Tobin.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n718.2 ---------------
From: Angelica (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: Re: heart pump thing / newcomer observation (long)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 21:14:16 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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References: (199804091647.JAA11136 lists1.best.com)
) I would like to address a broader issue though. Do we not all
) know that anyone can take quotes out of context? Can people not
) also string these quotes together to represent a meaning other than
) the other intended? Every movement has central tenants that followers
) (not such a great word maybe) agree with or at least find interesting
) enough to stay. It would also seem that every movement also has
) problems. One example is some of the strange things Steiner has
) written/said. Anyone can take all the "bad" things, link them
) together, rally around them, and create a very bad image of a
) movement.
Cymen, Thank you (for everyone!) for a level headed, well reasoned
response to some of our recent insanity on this list!!! You raise some
very valid issues, which have been disturbing me, though I haven't
really said them. The whole idea of quoting out of context is truly
very dangerous. outside of this context, some examples that come to
mind are people who quote the bible in weird ways to back up any idea
they choose. For my own part, I guess this is part of why I don't
quote. Without gettig really lengthy, it's hard to quote in a way that
doesn't leave out the contect. I would agree that there is definitely a
lot of out of context quoting happening on this list, and it's certainly
giving some very negative false impressions. Steiner has definitely
said soem stuff that seems unusual, if not down right bizarre. And out
of the context that he generally (carefully) places his ideas in, hey
look even stranger!
) I personally do not know much about Anthroposophy even though
) I have a Waldorf teacher for a parent and have attended a Waldorf
) school for the total of 12 or 13 years. I would like to know more but
) find that it is very hard to get any sort of "Introduction to Anthroposphy"
) text or class/workgroup. At a youth conference held in East Troy, WI
) in '95 (?) I suggested that we have such a workgroup at the next
) conference. It was then suggested to me that perhaps I would like to lead
) such a class - something I don't believe I would be comfortable with
) because I have such a lack of understanding/knowledge of Anthroposophy.
Yes, this is definitely somethign that would be very useful, both for
new comers and those who've been in this all along but dont' really know
much about it. Do let us know if such a thing ever comes about. One of
the hard things, I guess is to sum anthro up in a nutshell, cause it's
rather complex...
) I am pretty skeptical by nature. I could see how people could really
) misunderstand Waldorf/Anthro. because it is a very different place than
) mainstream America/Whatever. There is probably always going to be
) people with axes to grind (some of the people on this list?) and because
) "they" are so unwilling to even *imagine* another way of thinking then
) their own those of us who are open to other ideas can really do very little
) productive things *here*. The only really valuable reason to be on this
) list
) is to see common misconceptions and prepare to deal with them and
) attempt to make things clear.
Yup, you hit the nail right on the head here! The primary mood around
here is probalby stubborness. in fact, i'm still not entirely sure
whether people on this list want a waldorf that's more
responsive/responsible to wider society, or to eliminate it
entirely..... Or just to insult it! I would hope the former could be
the focus; in fact, I wouldnt' be defending WE if I didnt' truly
believe it's one of, if not the best, form of education we currently
have. I woudl actually like to see it in public schools not because I
want anyone indoctrinated, but because I would like any child, no matter
their financial situation, to be able to receive this quality
education.....
Anyway, that's my equally lengthy reaction/response....!
Angelica G. Hesse
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n718.3 ---------------
From: Angelica (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: Re: Speaking of deplorable treatment..
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 21:22:32 -0400
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(199804082244.PAA05898 lists1.best.com)
(199804080922.CAA18582 lists1.best.com) from "Michael Kopp" at Apr 8, 98
10:20:58 am (199804082019.NAA22048 lists1.best.com) (199804091703.KAA24162 lists1.best.com)
snell netshel.net wrote:
) Trust me, there is a _big_ difference between e-mail and personal assaults.
) Say anything you want to me via my computer, I may feel an emotional
) reaction, but I don't feel fear. I have felt _fear_ in many situations
) within my community. Doesn't mean that I'll stop because of it, but my
) family/friends have expressed their concern for my safety _many_ times.
I understand that you were definitely harrassed, and abused, and that is
truly a horrible thing, and shouldn't have happened to anyone. but I
can't help but ask: what exactly were you afraid was going to happen to
you, what safety did you fear was at stake?
) )Without trying to diminish the impact of what you face in your community, I
) )don't see that it is relevant to any standards of decorum on this or any
) )other list.
)
) HINT: Anytime you start off a sentence in this manner, you are likely
) guilty of doing what you are "trying" not to do.
Though i'm not robert, I'll venture to guess that he really didn't
intend to diminish waht happened to you. I think, however, that me
makes a valid point in saying that the abuse you received from people
NOT on this list is no reason for you or anyone else here to be abusive
to other conversants here. (I'm not saying you have been, just
clarifying the implication).
Earnestly,
Angelica G. Hesse
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n718.4 ---------------
From: spike (spike netshel.net)
Subject: Mumbo Jumbo: gibberish
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 20:00:30 -0700
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Angelica posted:
)
) From: angelica hesse (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
) Subject: mumbo-jumbo
) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 18:26:35 -0400 (EDT)
) MIME-Version: 1.0
) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
) In-Reply-To: (199804060300.UAA20045 lists1.best.com) from "Michael Kopp" at Apr 6, 98 02:32:11 pm
)
) PRay, define this interesting new word you've coined!!!
)
Assuming you mean mumbo jumbo, I found this as one of the definitions in
"Websters New World Dictionary, Third College Edition."
Mumbo Jumbo: gibberish
*********************
I am curious. What college or university are you attending? Are you in
school at the present time? How do you find the time to devote so much
time to this list and still give proper attention to your studies?
Also: I read previously your defense of the belief that the heart does
not pump blood. What do you believe is the heart's purpose or function?
What is the cause of blood circulating through the body? Why does blood
discontinue circulation when a human's (not a fetus) heart is mortally
damaged?
Kathy
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n718.5 ---------------
From: spike (spike netshel.net)
Subject: Waldorf Teacher Training
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 19:54:24 -0700
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Ezra posted:
Merely going through the training does not make you a
) teacher to be hired by an accredited waldorf school.
My understanding is that going through the training is the one
requirement that does make an individual eligible to be hired as a
classroom teacher at an accredited Waldorf school. It is also now a
requirement at some public charter Waldorf schools. Also . . . in order
to be accepted into the training the applicant must state their
relationship to Anthroposophy. I assume the relationship must be a solid
one or the applicant will not be accepted. There is no stated
requirement or prerequisite of a BA or BS from an accredited college or
university to my knowledge.
As a public school teacher I was required to take the Public School
Teachers Training at the Ruduolf Steiner College. When I became alarmed
at the training content I investigated and, only then, learned that
_all_ of the training was based on anthroposophical religious belief,
ie; mumbo-jumbo (sorry Angelica). The word, Anthroposophy, was not even
mentioned to the enrollees in this program or to the school districts
that have bought into the training. This is false advertising.
Kathy
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n718.6 ---------------
From: spike (spike netshel.net)
Subject: Humanism vs. Spiritualism
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 18:33:50 -0700
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Angelica posted:
)
) I dont' intend to say that they are necessarily more moral. I try very hard
) not to have such an attitude, and would be ashamed if I did. Again, I'll
) reiterate, I'm talking abotu a direction in life: is our purpose to acquire
) things, to enjoy this life; or is it to make the world better, to try to
) become a better person? I see these as two ends of a continuum, two
) direction which people can choose from when deciding how to live their
) lives. I would simply imagine that a belief in this one physical life only
) would lead somewhat more toward the first, while a most spiritual belief
) systems at least attempt to guide people more toward the second.
)
I have been following the thread regarding assumptions about the
materialism of humanists vs. individuals with spiritual beliefs.
Angelica assumes that persons without a belief beyond their present
experience here on earth would perhaps be more likely to want to acquire
more possessions, have less respect for the earth maybe, to want to
engage in self-improvement in a moral sense, etc., as opposed to those
with spiritual beliefs.
My personal experience is just the opposite. I have three friends that
are ardent humanists - atheists. Each of them live very simple lives -
quite spartan in comparison to the normal human existence. Each of these
individuals is extremely morally committed to a variety of endeavors. I
am in awe of their individual integrity. I compare these folks with my
friends and acquaintances with spiritual beliefs, even 2
Anthroposophists I know, and their ability to shun the materialist
influence of our society pales in comparison to my humanist friends. The
rest of my acquaintances live more or less in the mainstream of society
in terms of acquiring property, possessions, etc. Those with ardent
spiritual (religious) beliefs, at least in my own small circle of
acquaintances, actaully have the most possessions in comparison to those
with less defined belief systems. What does this mean? Actually nothing
in terms of making larger statements about people in general, however;
my experience would not enable me to make a generalization about any
correlation between spiritual belief system and material acquisition.
Kathy
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n718.7 ---------------
From: spike (spike netshel.net)
Subject: Humanism vs. Spiritualism
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 20:09:19 -0700
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Angelica posted:
)
) I dont' intend to say that they are necessarily more moral. I try very hard
) not to have such an attitude, and would be ashamed if I did. Again, I'll
) reiterate, I'm talking abotu a direction in life: is our purpose to acquire
) things, to enjoy this life; or is it to make the world better, to try to
) become a better person? I see these as two ends of a continuum, two
) direction which people can choose from when deciding how to live their
) lives. I would simply imagine that a belief in this one physical life only
) would lead somewhat more toward the first, while a most spiritual belief
) systems at least attempt to guide people more toward the second.
)
I have been following the thread regarding assumptions about the
materialism of humanists vs. individuals with spiritual beliefs.
Angelica assumes that persons without a belief beyond their present
experience here on earth would perhaps be more likely to want to acquire
more possessions, have less respect for the earth maybe, to want to
engage in self-improvement in a moral sense, etc., as opposed to those
with spiritual beliefs.
My personal experience is just the opposite. I have three friends that
are ardent humanists - atheists. Each of them live very simple lives -
quite spartan in comparison to the normal human existence. Each of these
individuals is extremely morally committed to a variety of endeavors. I
am in awe of their individual integrity. I compare these folks with my
friends and acquaintances with spiritual beliefs, even 2
Anthroposophists I know, and their ability to shun the materialist
influence of our society pales in comparison to my humanist friends. The
rest of my acquaintances live more or less in the mainstream of society
in terms of acquiring property, possessions, etc. Those with ardent
spiritual (religious) beliefs, at least in my own small circle of
acquaintances, actaully have the most possessions in comparison to those
with less defined belief systems. What does this mean? Actually nothing
in terms of making larger statements about the behavior of people in
general, in relation to their religious or spiritual beliefs. However, I
believe there is danger in making such assumptions or generalizations.
This brand of prejudice is precisely what I was subjected to in the
Public School Teachers Training at the Rudolf Steiner College. It had a
little bit of a twist. It goes something like this: Public schools and
public school teaching is bad. Children cannot grow spiritually when
immersed in a public education. Public schools are responsible for much
of the ills of our society because they do not address a child's
spirituality. A good teacher addresses a child's spirituality. Anything
less than this is not good. How does a good teacher address a child's
spirituality . . . through the Waldorf method. And on and on . . .
constant and regular denigration of public school, public school
teachers, public school teaching methods, and the product of public
schools. The cure: Waldorf.
I think this attitude is directly in line with Angelica's prejudice
against humanists and atheist, assuming that they are somehow more
materialistic, more self-oriented, less apt to have a greater moral
purpose, etc.
Kathy
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From: lark involved.com (Lark Jarvis)
Subject: My Camphill experience--and some questions
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 22:30:47 -0700
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At 09:14 PM 4/9/98 -0400, Angelica wrote:
One of
)the hard things, I guess is to sum anthro up in a nutshell, cause it's
)rather complex..
Well, yes, that's *it*, in a nutshell. A few years back, when I was
briefly a "coworker" (volunteer) at one of the Camphill Villages in the US
(Camphill is the anthroposophical arm which provides living/working
situations with people with disabilities), we were to attend an
introductory seminar designed to acclimate us to anthroposophy.
Informal discussions with my fellow coworkers revealed that while we
couldn't see anything particularly offensive or troublesome about what we
were being taught, we also couldn't really articulate what it exactly WAS
that we were being taught. (Maybe if we had understood more, we would've
been more offended? ;) Our general impression was that most of the
coworkers in the village (at least the younger ones) didn't much get it,
either. (How dangerous is an ideaology, really, if noone can seem to quite
decipher its fuzziness? I wondered . . . and I still do.) In any case, I
think all of us welcomed the night --much more relaxing to listen to a
lecture, no matter how fuzzy, than to mop floors . . . . Cows must be
milked, houses must be cleaned, ideology or no--at least that's the way it
worked in this situation.
OTOH, when I visited the Camphill Village in Copake, NY, several of the
"old guard" coworkers had pictures of Rudoph Steiner in their (very
spartan) rooms, and the whole scene reminded me of a monastery. Very
creepy--photos of Steiner were being used in very much the same way one
would use a picture of the Pope or the Dalai Lama or the head-guy of
Eckankar. So I gather that there are several distinct generations of
Camphill participants--with the youngest (or was it only the least
COMMITTED?) being almost totally oblivious.
I still have very major reservations about my Camphill experience, and I
suspect that they very much parallel some of what I've heard here about WE.
I left after a couple of months, both because of what I saw an
all-pervasive rigidity, and a precarious lack of funding/sustenance. While
the "villagers" were obviously respected and valued, and not mistreated,
and the site was idyllic, and many villagers visibly thrived on farm life,
I couldn't help wondering if all of the residents' needs/potentials were
being fully addressed (not to mention their medical needs, since the
village consulted an Anthroposophical doctor. While I was there, BTW, the
same doctor misdiagnosed a case of appendicitis in a coworker, and the
consequences could have been serious . . . ).
I must say, also, that it was a shock to me when I later became employed in
a group home for adults with autism here in Oregon, and realized that there
are very distinct laws about people with developmental disabilities having
lifestyle choices, etc etc. (what foods they prefer, what outings, clothes,
TELEVISION shows, etc etc). That was definitely NOT the philosophy of
Camphill Kimberton Hills (which was under a special exemption from state
regs in PA). I don't know exactly how the facility in New York State was
run, but I would assume that there must have been some big differences,
because they *were* state-regulated. During my brief visit there, I heard a
great deal about the tension between the Village and the licensing board .
. .
In any case, I'm torn, now, because I'd really love the year's worth of
direct experience that life in a Camphill Village could give me, and
especially the chance to perfect my German (and especially now that I have
more training in the disabilities field, a massage license, etc). But I
wonder how much of the experience would consist of indoctrination, pure and
simple. Does anyone have any experience with any of the Camphill schools
for children with special needs? My experiences thus far have been in the
communities for adults, which I assume have a slightly different feel, if
for no other reason than licensing laws. Can any share a little of what the
"special school" educational environment is like (especially now that I
have some "outside" experiene with which I can compare)?
Lark Jarvis, LMT
Portland, OR
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n718.9 ---------------
From: lark involved.com (Lark Jarvis)
Subject: Re: Waldorf Teacher Training
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 22:33:46 -0700
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At 07:54 PM 4/9/98 -0700, Kathy wrote:
Also . . . in order
)to be accepted into the training the applicant must state their
)relationship to Anthroposophy. I assume the relationship must be a solid
)one or the applicant will not be accepted.
I wonder, specifically, about this question with regard to teacher
training, and I'd welcome any other info from anyone else with experience.
I have been looking at Waldorf Teacher Training again, just toying with the
idea, but this would definitely settle the issue once and for all. I don't
think I'll ever be able to call myself an Anthroposophist, or even devote
much time to learning the basics . . . (who has time for such anachronistic
things?)
As I wrote earlier about my experience with Camphill communities, there is
not a really hard and fast rule in Camphill about coworkers' needing to be
even familiar with Anthroposophy or Steiner--although the atmosphere is
undoubtedly "flavored" by Steiner's ideas. Apparently the same is not true
of Waldorf environments? Are there litmus tests in order to enter training
programs?
Lark in Portland
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n718.10 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: Waldorf Teacher Training
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 23:04:11 -0800
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)At 07:54 PM 4/9/98 -0700, Kathy wrote:
) Also . . . in order
))to be accepted into the training the applicant must state their
))relationship to Anthroposophy. I assume the relationship must be a solid
))one or the applicant will not be accepted.
)
)I wonder, specifically, about this question with regard to teacher
)training, and I'd welcome any other info from anyone else with experience.
)I have been looking at Waldorf Teacher Training again, just toying with the
)idea, but this would definitely settle the issue once and for all. I don't
)think I'll ever be able to call myself an Anthroposophist, or even devote
)much time to learning the basics . . . (who has time for such anachronistic
)things?)
Lark,
Have you looked at the course study for Waldorf teachers? It is a vertual
seminary for Anthroposophy. Go to PLANS web site
http://www.waldorfcritics.org , scroll down to the 'articles' section and
click on the first year WE teacher training program's book list. Don't
forget the second year as well...That should answer your question.
Best,
Debra
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n718 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n719 --------------
001 - lark involved.com (Lark J - Re: Waldorf Teacher Training
002 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - Admin: what's in a name?
003 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - Re: HOw vs. WHY
004 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - Re: Heart in Main Lesson Book
005 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - Re: Free hallucinogenic drugs in your mailbox, (and make $$$ w
006 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - teacher encounters Waldorf ways
007 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - Re: CULT/ST RUDY/inflammatory-ness
008 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - Re: matters of the heart
009 - dan dandugan.com (Dan Dug - Re: CULT/ST RUDY/inflammatory-ness
010 - Daniel Sabsay (danielsabs - Re: CULT/ST RUDY/inflammatory-ness (let's add TRACT)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n719.1 ---------------
From: lark involved.com (Lark Jarvis)
Subject: Re: Waldorf Teacher Training
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 23:33:04 -0700
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References: (199804100535.WAA24859 lists1.best.com)
(199804100313.UAA04037 lists1.best.com)
(199804070234.TAA18315 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199804100605.XAA17941 lists1.best.com)
At 11:04 PM 4/9/98 -0800, you wrote:
)Lark,
)Have you looked at the course study for Waldorf teachers? It is a vertual
)seminary for Anthroposophy. Go to PLANS web site
)http://www.waldorfcritics.org , scroll down to the 'articles' section and
)click on the first year WE teacher training program's book list. Don't
)forget the second year as well...That should answer your question.
Uhhhh . . . yeah. :~o I guess I was sort of hoping that behind some of the
fuzziness was some content . . . I did think it sort of odd that in among
all the other stuff, there was simply "American Literature." OK, that's
fine . . . I wonder what things are selected for that course?
Lark
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n719.2 ---------------
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Admin: what's in a name?
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 23:38:31 -0700
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Please, Michael Kopp, discussions of people's identities are off-topic.
It's their ideas we're interested in.
-Dan Dugan
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: HOw vs. WHY
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 23:38:35 -0700
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Angelica, you said,
)Yes, I suppose it does invite enterpretation, or else really, really
)scrupulous objectivity, despite the temptations... Perhaps for you 'how' is
)sufficient, but for me it's simply not. It fails to explain the meaning of
)teh world. It fails to explain the purpose of life. It fails to explain
)why I am here, and what I am doing and for waht purpose. To my mind, it
)fails to exlain why the whole darn world shoudl even be here. I can't
)accept that there isn't a reason. The world is too well designed.
Assigning meaning to things is a human activity, a valuable one, I think.
The rest of the universe went on without meaning before us and will likely
continue in marvellous ways, but without "meaning," after we're extinct.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n719.4 ---------------
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: Heart in Main Lesson Book
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 23:38:25 -0700
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Angelica, you said,
)Despite the comments made by critics to this post, I see some merit in it.
)I wonder whether maybe we're all making everything too black and white
)around here. I have not read any of the 'sacred texts' either. I dont'
)actually know what steiner said to this effect. YOur suggestion strikes me,
)however as a good one: the heart isn't just a pump. And, clearly, the heart
)is not the sole force that moves blood through the body. Obviously, however,
)the heart is a muscle, and does perform a pumping, contraction action. I
)dont' think anyone here has denied that.
An M.D. has told me that the heart is somewhat unique among the organs of
the body in having ONLY ONE function, that of pumping blood. I have seen
film of blood cells moving through the smallest capillaries, where they
squeeze through in jerks, appearing almost to be stuck in between
heartbeats.
Waldorf students aren't allowed to see films.
-Dan Dugan
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: Free hallucinogenic drugs in your mailbox, (and make $$$ while your at it)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 23:38:23 -0700
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Brittanus, I appreciate your sense of humor. You wrote,
)I would very much like to hear what your ideas on an ideal and practical
)education would be, indeed I would rather like a complete theory of
)education circulated before any more ANTI comments are made.
I wish there was such a thing as a "complete theory of education." Indeed,
one of the qualities that makes Waldorf so attractive to people is its
claim to a theory of life, the universe, and everything. Ironically, I
think that is one of its strengths. Unifying principles give coherence and
power, even if they're based on nonsense.
I've been studying Waldorf and Anthroposophy for about nine years; I have
little knowledge of other educational approaches so I have little to say
about them. I do recommend E.D. Hirsch's "The Schools We Need, and Why We
Don't Have Them," which deconstructs the vocabulary of 20th-century
"progressive education." Much of this vocabulary is shared with Waldorf.
The book is available from the PLANS bookstore on our web site
(http://www.waldorfcritics.org).
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n719.6 ---------------
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: teacher encounters Waldorf ways
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 23:38:40 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Anthroposophists often say that the criticisms heard on this list are just
over-reactions and over-generalizations of occurrences that are rare. I
quote the following as testimony from an "independent" observer, yea, one
who says he has been studying Anthroposophy for 20 years! Dale Brunsvold
wrote to the Anthroposophia list (in part):
)As an educator that has moved over to Waldorf after 12 years in public
)schools, I do wonder at the struggles here. It is only my first year, and I
)am in the high school as a math teacher. But I am generally amazed at the
)level of ignorance by Waldorf teachers as to what is being done in the sphere
)of education in america in general. I feel there is much there of real value
)that a committed Waldorf teacher can bring into his or her work. I am sure
)some is being done, but much is still being done exactly as it was over 70
)years ago and in an entirely different cultural context.
He said he'd been studying Anthroposophy for 20 years, but it appears he
still didn't know what he was getting into. It isn't only disgruntled
parents who are "amazed at the level of ignorance" and see "much is still
being done exactly as it was over 70 years ago."
-Dan Dugan
copy to DBrunsvold AOL.COM (subscribe to this list to discuss, Dale)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n719.7 ---------------
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: CULT/ST RUDY/inflammatory-ness
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 23:38:27 -0700
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Angelica, you wrote,
)Cult is truly a denigrating term, and tends to illicit only defensiveness
)(at least on my part). I'd like to move away from criticism and
)defensiveness and toward an earnest conversation about what really concerns
)all of us, on both sides of this issue. Cult, at least to me, implies a
)society BASED on control and manipulation. It also brings to mind too many
)images of people committing suicide.
Yes, it does. Better you shouldn't associate with a cult-like organization,
if you don't want to be tarred with that brush.
When I was a parent at the San Francisco Waldorf, and an enthusiastic
booster of the school, I looked into a book on the school bookstore shelf.
In it were egregious statements typical of 1920's German racism. "Who would
sell crap like this today," I thought. "It would have to be some kind of
cult." First clue.
When I pointed out that teaching that Newton was wrong about white light
being composed of a mixture of colors, and that Goethe was right, the
teacher laughed. The school had a great gift to give to us, an advanced
view of science. It was not for me to correct them. Cult-like behavior,
again.
When I requested an audience with the College of Teachers, I was told they
were too busy. A committee of teachers met with me to tell me that I had to
shut up or our family would be expelled. Definitely cult-like
(Gump voice) Cults is as cults does (/Gump voice).
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n719.8 ---------------
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: matters of the heart
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 23:38:29 -0700
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Joel, you wrote,
) The "heart", however, is an organ in a living body. It is not a
)device, and was not invented by human beings. As an organ it is rather
)unusual, in that if it is destroyed, the whole dies. The loss of other
)organs does not, necessarily, produce this consequence.
Wrong. Try lungs, for example. You can live without some parts of the
digestive system, with difficulty, but most internal organs are essential
to life.
) Steiner actually didn't say: "the heart is not a pump", but what he
)said is that: if one was to only look at the heart, using some kind of
)physical mechanism as an analogy, then it is most like a phnematic ram,
)because the heart (at this level) controls the flow of the blood by
)"interrupting" it, by blocking its flow.
"The heart is not a pump, however, but only indicates what goes on in the
body: the heart beats faster when the blood circulates faster." [Steiner,
1923, Health and Illness Volume 2 pp. 75-76.]
Only one quote of many, Joel.
) Please do not assume that I am arguing the above. Such is not my
)intention. Rather my thought is to open up the rigidity of the
)argument, which tends to focus on this simplistic and negative image
)(the heart is not a pump), and make it possible for us to actually
)consider the idea as it was meant.
I'm confident Steiner meant exactly what he said. In the case of this
doctrine, he said it over and over.
(snip)
) I know the zealots will crunch away, accusing me of being an
)anthroposophical appoligist etc., but no mind.
I will admire you more, Joel, if you apologize for Anthroposophy proudly,
rather than weaseling around.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n719.9 ---------------
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: CULT/ST RUDY/inflammatory-ness
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 23:38:33 -0700
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Angelica, you wrote
)I don't have a problem with discussing aspects of WE taht may truly need
)changing. What I have a problem with is attacks for their own sake. I
)recognize, and sympathize with the maltreatment you have apparently
)received. What i here behind your complaints is that are upset with teh
)individual, interpersonal treatment you received by members of your
)particular school. That means soemthing very different than the idea that
)all teh schools are corrupt and completely negative. Obviously, what
)happened to you is somethign that needs addressing. I woudln't deny that.
)In fact, if it continued to happen, it would be doing a great disservice,
)including to WE itself. Nobody wants this sort of treatment to be the norm:
)neither people liek yourself, nor those of us who support waldorf.
When I found Steiner cult pseudoscience in our school, my first assumption
was that the individual teachers were misinformed. Study has revealed that
pseudoscientific doctrines are essential to Anthroposophy and Waldorf, and
appear in almost all Waldorf schools.
)Not that that my personal beliefs are terribly relevant to WE in general,
)but since you asked, I'll answer:
)
)) 1. Do you mean to say by the above that you personally believe in
))clairvoyance?
)) 2. Do you mean to say by the above that you personally believe Rudolf Steiner
)) did achieve clairvoyance?
)
)Yes, I personally believe both of the above. If I didnt', I wouldnt' be
)putting much stake in any of this. If I ever get there myself, which I
)seriously doubt will happen in this life time, I'll let you know (if you're
)interested!).... This may sound like a joke, but I'm actually dead serious.
This kind of belief is common, unfortunately. I assert that there has never
been one human being who was "clairvoyant."
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n719.10 ---------------
From: Daniel Sabsay (danielsabsay earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: CULT/ST RUDY/inflammatory-ness (let's add TRACT)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 98 03:17:06 -0700
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Daniel Sabsay wrote ))
)) The nature of a cult is that its structure precludes rejecting the
)) founder's premises. A person whose insight via "spiritual science"
)) dis-confirms Saint Rudy will be denounced as errant, or excommunicated. =
)) This is the nature of subjective "investigation", and leads to =
religious
)) schisms and holy wars. [like Steiner leaving Theosophy]
)
)) Anthroposophy will never be able to rid itself of "the heart is not a
)) pump" because nobody except Saint Rudy has the authority to change the
)) scriptures (e.g., the "four lectures" or the "ten lectures").
To which Angelica (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu) replied )
)I am concerned with two terms that are being consistently used on this =
list:
)CULT and ST. RUDY. Personally, I experience them both as inflammatory.
)
)Cult is truly a denigrating term, and tends to illicit only defensiveness
)(at least on my part). I'd like to move away from criticism and
)defensiveness and toward an earnest conversation about what really =
concerns
)all of us, on both sides of this issue.
I would, too.
1) Did your Waldorf school have an anthroposophic doctor and a =
homeopathic
first aid kit?
2) What was the attitude of the school doctor and your school toward
vaccinations?
)
)Cult, at least to me, implies a society BASED on control and =
manipulation. It
)also brings to mind too many images of people committing suicide.
Mind control has many forms.
)As for St. Rudy, I'm torn between laughing at it, and being appalled. I =
do
)not for a second consider him a saint. (Sainthood, traditionally, is only
)bestowed by the Catholic church anyway, and if you know anything about =
their
)reaction to him, you'd see how impossible it is for him to be considered a
)saint.) I suspect, however, that's not what you meant. Am I correct in
)interpreting that you mean 'followers' of steiner treat/view him as a =
saint?
)Yes, some probably do. In the same way, fanatical followers of ANY belief
)systems raise individuals to this kind of height. It is, however
)unrealistic, and as you seem to be pointing out, negative. I would never
)give Steiner the status of a god or a saint. I admire his dignity as a
)human being, his social efforts, and his discipline. But I don't' for a
)second consider him perfect -- he to was human.
)
)If someone else, from any walk of life, achieves clairvoyance, what they =
have
)to say deserves to be heard, just as he did.
This is the ESSENCE of the problem, Angelica: There is no objective =
test for "clairvoyance" So, I asked Per Hallstr=F6m what might =
happen if an anthroposophist did not believe in the reality of =
clairvoyance.
He wrote )
)A person who believes in everything Rudolf Steiner said, except
)reincarnation is a totally hypothetic person, and would not be considered
)an anthroposophist.
In other words, excommunication. So, if not cult, perhaps you would =
prefer the word religion?
Angelica continued )
)If Anthroposophists prevent such people from
)bringing new insights, they would be hampering exactly the evolution of
)knowledge and wisdom and spirituality they profess to support. Obviously,
)it can be tempting to do this, because sometimes one loses perspective. =
We
)as humans tend to forget that even the best knowledge we have is limited,
)and that it can always change and be improved. I will certainly admit =
that
)the same thing needs to happen in Anthroposophy. We (if I'm even part of
)them!) need to remember this as much as the rest of the world. [...]
Yes, and this is WHY the rest of us do not want Rudolph Steiner =
College indoctrinating teachers in publicly funded schools.
Earlier, Angelica wrote )
)It happens that both my parents work in the medical field and personally =
know
)one of the physicians who was working on this study. For that reason, it
)[the article by Ralph Marinelli of "Rudolph Steiner Research Center" =
titled
)"The Heart Is Not A Pump: A Refutation of The Pressure Propulsion
)Premise of Heart Function"] showed up in our house one day, and I was
)interested enough to take a look at it.
It is my fond hope that a high school graduate who picks up a tract =
like this has the perspective and presence of mind to ask some very =
elementary WHY questions:
1) Why is a supposedly scientific article using words like =
"refutation" and
"premise" in the title?
2) Why do all surgical heart-bypass machines in the known universe =
use pumps
if not to propell blood?
3) Why does the "Rudolph Steiner Research Center" feel it important =
to do
research on hearts?
Respectfully & earnestly,
Daniel Sabsay, president
East Bay Skeptics Society
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n719 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n720 --------------
001 - Neil Faiman (faiman zko.d - Re: Waldorf Teacher Training
002 - angelica hesse (hesse96 m - Re: Mumbo Jumbo: gibberish
003 - lark involved.com (Lark J - Re: Waldorf Teacher Training
004 - Herman de Tollenaere (her - Re: Racism (was: Heart as pump, etc....)
005 - Herman de Tollenaere (her - Montessori and Summit Lighthouse
006 - Daniel Sabsay (danielsabs - Re: heart pump thing / newcomer observation
007 - Robert Flannery (litvas i - Re: Racism (was: Heart as pump, etc....)
008 - "Joel A. Wendt" (hermit m - Re: CULT/ST RUDY/inflammatory-ness
009 - Luna457954 (Luna457954 ao - Re: Waldorf Teacher Training
010 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: Waldorf Teacher Training
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n720.1 ---------------
From: Neil Faiman (faiman zko.dec.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf Teacher Training
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 08:54:27 -0400
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Greetings.
Debra Snell wrote:
) Have you looked at the course study for Waldorf teachers? It is a
) vertual seminary for Anthroposophy. Go to PLANS web site
) http://www.waldorfcritics.org , scroll down to the 'articles'
) section and click on the first year WE teacher training program's
) book list. Don't forget the second year as well...That should answer
) your question.
It appears that PLANS' discussion of "Waldorf Teacher Training" is
actually a discussion of teacher training at Rudolf Steiner College.
There are other Waldorf teacher training programs in the country.
Lark might want to extend his investigations beyond the PLANS/RSC
material, and take a look at
(http://sparc.antiochne.edu/academics/ed/4waldorf.html), the home page
for the Waldorf Education program at Antioch New England Graduate
School. Perhaps Robert could provide directions for obtaining
information about the Spring Valley teacher training program. Anyone
else have pointers to information about other programs?
-Neil
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n720.2 ---------------
From: angelica hesse (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: Re: Mumbo Jumbo: gibberish
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:21:20 -0400 (EDT)
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In-Reply-To: (199804100313.UAA04032 lists1.best.com) from "spike" at Apr 9, 98 08:00:30 pm
) I am curious. What college or university are you attending? Are you in
) school at the present time? How do you find the time to devote so much
) time to this list and still give proper attention to your studies?
You're addressing me, I guess?
It's a good question! Since classes resumed, keeping up with teh list has
been a challenge. But then I've always been a person taht got by with very
little studying! I'm lucky that way, I've never ahd to work hard in order
to learn, it came naturally. I"m taking 6 courses, three of which are very
time consuming art studio classes (graphic design, photopgraphy). So yes, I
am in school, at SUNY New Paltz (as my e-mail address indicates).
) Also: I read previously your defense of the belief that the heart does
) not pump blood. What do you believe is the heart's purpose or function?
) What is the cause of blood circulating through the body? Why does blood
) discontinue circulation when a human's (not a fetus) heart is mortally
) damaged?
Kathy, I'm not entirely sure. I'm not a scientist, and don't profess to be,
though science does periodically fascinate me. I don't like to take it as
unquestionable however, and am always fascinated by unusual discoveries,
ideas, etc...
If I had to say, I would probably indicate that to maybe the heart serves a
regulatory function. That arteries, heart, and maybe a sort of perpetual
motion type impulse keep the blood moving. WHy blood stops, I don't
know.... Mostly, I'm familiar with how it starts, I haven't really studied
trauma related stuff.
I'm not pretending to know everythign, just sort of considering a bunch of
ideas.
Angelica G. Hesse
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n720.3 ---------------
From: lark involved.com (Lark Jarvis)
Subject: Re: Waldorf Teacher Training
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 08:57:38 -0700
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In-Reply-To: (199804101303.GAA03770 lists1.best.com)
At 08:54 AM 4/10/98 -0400, Neil wrote:
)Lark might want to extend his investigations beyond the PLANS/RSC
)material, and take a look at
)(http://sparc.antiochne.edu/academics/ed/4waldorf.html), the home page
)for the Waldorf Education program at Antioch New England Graduate
)School.
Wow. The anthroposophy is still there, but there's an ENORMOUS amount more
legitimate CONTENT (how much I'd agree with the content, though, I have no
idea). I had been under the impression that all teacher training courses
are, by definition, alike. Not so. Apparently my impressions re: Camphill
hold true here, also--LICENSING and REGULATION often seem to force the
Movement into the 20th Century. If anyone in any Waldorf or Camphill
facility tries to tell you that state licensing doesn't matter, or, more
commonly, that it's just a necessary evil, they're wrong, and that should
be a red flag.
Lark
(a "she," BTW, and not a "he" :)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n720.4 ---------------
From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Re: Racism (was: Heart as pump, etc....)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:40:47 +0200
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At 08:39 PM 9/4/98 -0400, Robert Flannery wrote:
Herman de Tollenaere wrote:
))The The Hague Waldorf school, founded by Stibbe in the 1920s, and described
))in Trouw daily, is the "mother school", model for later schools, for Dutch
))Waldorf education.
)OK, Herman, I'm with you so far, but did the Hague school teach racial
)ethnography?
Certainly. You did read my earlier post on this list with the long
description in Trouw daily of that school's racial ethnography classes,
didn't you?
best wishes
Herman de Tollenaere
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n720.5 ---------------
From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Montessori and Summit Lighthouse
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:40:54 +0200
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At 09:47 PM 9/4/98 -0400, Lynn Tobin wrote:
)Herman de Tollenaere wrote:
)) Excuse my ignorance of abbreviations in the US: what does AMI stand for? Has
)) it any links to "Montessori International" schools, linked to Summit
)) Lighthouse/Church Universal and Triumphant of Elizabeth Claire Prophet
)) (another offshoot of Theosophy; its reputation of being a cult is definitely
)) worse than Anthroposophy's; more info: see
)) http://www.stelling.nl/simpos/summitli.htm)?
))
))
){AMI] stands for Assocation
)Montessori Internazionale. An offshoot organization, AMS (American
)Montessori Society) was formed here in the United States and has
)incorporated methods in keeping with the needs of children here, and
)seems to be open to innovations in a different way. I am not a
)Montessorian and am forming my opinions as an observer of the system.
)Perhaps I am not doing justice to either side. Neither group could be
)considered a cult by any stretch of the imagination.
I referred to charges of being a cult against Summit Lighthouse/Church
Universal and Triumphant; not against Montessori education. Critics accuse
the CUT of using the well known name Montessori to advance their own agenda.
Has anyone on this list more information on this?
Thanks in advance.
Best wishes,
Herman de Tollenaere
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n720.6 ---------------
From: Daniel Sabsay (danielsabsay earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: heart pump thing / newcomer observation
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 98 14:20:52 -0700
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Cymen Vig (cymen ziplink.net) wrote )
) It seems like something very important is missing from these
)discussions - why does this matter? I don't think any high school
)student is going to accept everything taught to them as fact. I
)believe the "heart is not a pump" was brought up in the Chicago
)Waldorf High School. I remember asking why this was such a big
)deal because the teacher seemed to be stressing it a bit and it
)did sound a bit odd.
The Waldorf education people here claim that NO anthroposophy gets into
the Waldorf curriculum. Anthroposophy itself is full of cracked science,
anthroposophical agriculture is simply goofy, and anthroposophical
medicine is criminally crazy. Because of the religious nature of
anthroposophy (e.g., reincarnation and clairvoyance), it cannot change,
and it has no business in publicly funded schools in the US of A.
)Of course it did happen to agree with the
)explanation from the sophomore biology (advanced placement if we
)care to know) class I took at a Catholic high school (St. Patricks in
)Chicago). The text book mentions the contracting of veins/arteries
)(can't remember which, maybe I'll have time to dig out a quote or
)two) and how these help the flow of blood. The teacher at Waldorf
)mentioned this too and it was part of the central idea - a scientific
)fact. (see http://www.ziplink.net/~cymen/other/heart.htm for a
)very quickly hacked together piece with diagrams).
Actually, you have this backwards. The veins do not contract, they are
compressed by any activity in nearby skeletal muscles which, along with
the built-in one-way valves, can HELP pump blood back to the heart.
)
) I would like to address a broader issue though. Do we not all
)know that anyone can take quotes out of context? [...]
Yes, that is exactly Waldorf has done for you, mixed a little real
science with the anthroposophical craziness, and made it seem plausible.
By a rigid interpretation of anthroposophical principles, Waldorf
students are denied early experience with computers. Graduates such as
Angelica are smugly proud of their ability to learn to use computers when
they are finally allowed to use them late in their schooling. This is
also a kind of quoting out of context, since desktop personal computers
have been explicitly designed for the average person to easily use them
for writing and drawing, just as 3 year old children can now learn to use
them rapidly.
What critics are actually concerned about is that Waldorf students are
denied the opportunity to engage with computers early enough to gain a
seat in a college program to participate in the design and engineering of
the computers (and other high-tech) of the future. Ditto for science.
-- Daniel Sabsay, president
East Bay Skeptics Society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n720.7 ---------------
From: Robert Flannery (litvas icu.com)
Subject: Re: Racism (was: Heart as pump, etc....)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 17:42:31 -0400
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In-Reply-To: (199804101741.KAA16544 lists1.best.com)
))OK, Herman, I'm with you so far, but did the Hague school teach racial
))ethnography?
)
)Certainly. You did read my earlier post on this list with the long
)description in Trouw daily of that school's racial ethnography classes,
)didn't you?
I did, but didn't realize that article was discussing the Hague school.
I appreciate your point, Herman. The "flagship" waldorf school in the
Netherlands taught racial ethnography in years past.
My point remains the same. Outside of a handful of schools in the
Netherlands, I see no evidence that waldorf schools have practiced racism
in any form, anywhere else in the world.
I suddenly recall that Herman and Stephen Tonkin had a "go-round" about
racism and waldorf education in apartheid South Africa. I don't remember
anything being argued conclusively on either side, but we might as well say
that U.S. public schools are racist because of their pre-integration
practices.
I would really be interested in hearing about any instances anyone else can
describe of racism in waldorf education. I've asked for this before, and
no one has provided anything beyond what Herman has shown us. Until
someone can come up with something that demonstrates a more widespread
pattern or institutionalized practice of racism within waldorf circles, I'm
inclined to conclude it's a non-issue (at least outside of the Netherlands).
I would, however, appreciate seeing a more careful discussion of Rudolf
Steiner's racism.
Dan Dugan has said that when he presented some questionable quotations from
Steiner to teachers at the San Francisco school, they would not refute
them. Dan has interpreted this as evidence of an institutionalized form of
racism within the schools (those may not be Dan's exact words, but that was
his implication, at least).
Since Steiner's controversial quotes are culled from convulted discussions
of anthroposophical arcana* (planetary evolution; heirarchical (angelic)
roles in human development; the meaning of "root-races" and their
manifestation within the epochs of Hyperborea, Lemuria, and Atlantis; and
on and on. . .), I doubt there's much point in trying to pin it down here.
I don't think those teachers (or anyone else I've ever met) knew what
Steiner was really talking about when he was synthesizing from that list.
I certainly don't have a clue.
[*The one quote of Steiner's which I'm familiar with that does not fit this
pattern also seems to me to be the only one which is blatantly racist on
its face, to wit: that by reading "negro novels," pregnant European
women would produce mulatto children.]
The easiest way out is just to say he was being racist. I don't agree
generally, but I can see how others might come to that conclusion.
I'm willing to concede that point because I see no evidence that Steiner's
racism lives in the modern waldorf school movement.
Looks to me like Mr. Stibbe and his followers gained a foothold in the
Netherlands, but recent events have rooted out that taint. Seems that
there might have been such a thing as "Afrikaaner anthroposophy", which
wouldn't surprise me. But I see nothing else.
In an 80-year-old movement with about 700 schools in over 50 countries,
without a central administrative authority, where each school is free to
set its own course, that's exemplary.
Robert Flannery
New York
litvas icu.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n720.8 ---------------
From: "Joel A. Wendt" (hermit microweb.com)
Subject: Re: CULT/ST RUDY/inflammatory-ness
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 15:23:15 -0700
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References: (199804100641.XAA12626 lists1.best.com)
Dan Dugan wrote:
I assert that there has never
) been one human being who was "clairvoyant."
Dear Dan,
"I assert"? What does that mean? Should we now proclaim you St. Dan
of the omniscient thought?
By the way, when you commented on my post about "matters of the heart",
you didn't say anything about my assertion that this list refuses to
discuss in detail Steiner's foundational philosophical ideas.
Non-dogmatic anthroposophy doesn't have anything to appologise for,
Dan. You can claim to have studied anthroposophy for nine years, and
you are as good as dogmatic anthrosophists at finding the right quote,
but that never was and never will be what anthroposophy is about.
Lark, visit my webpages: "Outlaw Anthroposophy", at:
http://www.microweb.com/hermit/otlwa.html
Not everything that applies the name anthroposophy to itself is
anthroposophy, much the same way that anything which calls itself
humanism or christianity does not have to have anything to do with those
views of the world.
joel wendt
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n720.9 ---------------
From: Luna457954 (Luna457954 aol.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf Teacher Training
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:39:24 EDT
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In a message dated 4/9/98 11:22:05 PM, you wrote:
((There is no stated
requirement or prerequisite of a BA or BS from an accredited college or
university to my knowledge. ))
I think it depends on the state. In Rhode Island, to teach at *any* school,
one must have a BA. The teacher training is an added requirement in addition
to the state requirements. IMO, why should it not be? A Waldorf school
should have teachers trained in Waldorf philosophy and education.
Kelly Shinners
5th and 2nd grade parent
Meadowbrook Waldorf School
Wakefield, RI
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n720.10 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: Waldorf Teacher Training
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:22:04 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199804110141.SAA02204 lists1.best.com)
Kelly writes,
)I think it depends on the state. In Rhode Island, to teach at *any* school,
)one must have a BA. The teacher training is an added requirement in addition
)to the state requirements. IMO, why should it not be? A Waldorf school
)should have teachers trained in Waldorf philosophy and education.
California does not have that requirement - not only for private schools,
but state credentials have been written out of charter law as well. No
wonder RSC's training program teaches _only_ Anthroposophy.
Debra
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n720 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n721 --------------
001 - angelica hesse (hesse96 m - computers
002 - angelica hesse (hesse96 m - Re: teacher encounters Waldorf ways
003 - angelica hesse (hesse96 m - Re: CULT/ST RUDY/inflammatory-ness
004 - angelica hesse (hesse96 m - Re: Heart in Main Lesson Book
005 - angelica hesse (hesse96 m - Re: CULT/ST RUDY/inflammatory-ness
006 - angelica hesse (hesse96 m - Re: Free hallucinogenic drugs in your mailbox, (and make $$$ w
007 - Daniel Sabsay (danielsabs - Homeopathic survey
008 - Daniel Sabsay (danielsabs - Re: computers
009 - Daniel Sabsay (danielsabs - Schisms in anthroposophy?
010 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - To Michael Kopp
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n721.1 ---------------
From: angelica hesse (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: computers
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 16:03:18 -0400 (EDT)
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In-Reply-To: (199804102123.OAA00680 lists1.best.com) from "Daniel Sabsay" at Apr 10, 98 02:20:52 pm
) What critics are actually concerned about is that Waldorf students are
) denied the opportunity to engage with computers early enough to gain a
) seat in a college program to participate in the design and engineering of
) the computers (and other high-tech) of the future. Ditto for science.
WEll dan, if it's any consolation to you, I took an introductory computer
science course (including programing) at Vassar college and recevieved an
almost effortless 'A'
Angelica
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n721.2 ---------------
From: angelica hesse (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: Re: teacher encounters Waldorf ways
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 16:14:31 -0400 (EDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In-Reply-To: (199804100641.XAA12591 lists1.best.com) from "Dan Dugan" at Apr 9, 98 11:38:40 pm
THis sounds liek the perfect challenge, and opportunity, for all involved
with waldorf to take another hard look at it, to 'reform' or simply improve
and modernize what is being taught, adn how. It is not, howver, a case for
getting rid of waldorf entirely, because a lot of good stuff is also
happening in those schools. Yes, the schools probably need updating. I know
certain aspects were hotly debated at my school, and demanded by students
(sex ed for one). Every school seems to be at a different level of
'modernizing' depending on it's location, size, age, etc... In the same way,
eveyr school in teh public system varies in effectiveness, quality,
resources, quality of teachers, etc... THis is NORMAL in anythign created
and maintained by humans.
Angelica
) Anthroposophists often say that the criticisms heard on this list are just
) over-reactions and over-generalizations of occurrences that are rare. I
) quote the following as testimony from an "independent" observer, yea, one
) who says he has been studying Anthroposophy for 20 years! Dale Brunsvold
) wrote to the Anthroposophia list (in part):
)
) )As an educator that has moved over to Waldorf after 12 years in public
) )schools, I do wonder at the struggles here. It is only my first year, and I
) )am in the high school as a math teacher. But I am generally amazed at the
) )level of ignorance by Waldorf teachers as to what is being done in the sphere
) )of education in america in general. I feel there is much there of real value
) )that a committed Waldorf teacher can bring into his or her work. I am sure
) )some is being done, but much is still being done exactly as it was over 70
) )years ago and in an entirely different cultural context.
)
) He said he'd been studying Anthroposophy for 20 years, but it appears he
) still didn't know what he was getting into. It isn't only disgruntled
) parents who are "amazed at the level of ignorance" and see "much is still
) being done exactly as it was over 70 years ago."
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
) copy to DBrunsvold AOL.COM (subscribe to this list to discuss, Dale)
)
)
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n721.3 ---------------
From: angelica hesse (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: Re: CULT/ST RUDY/inflammatory-ness
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 16:20:38 -0400 (EDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In-Reply-To: (199804100641.XAA12626 lists1.best.com) from "Dan Dugan" at Apr 9, 98 11:38:33 pm
) )I don't have a problem with discussing aspects of WE taht may truly need
) )changing. What I have a problem with is attacks for their own sake. I
) )recognize, and sympathize with the maltreatment you have apparently
) )received. What i here behind your complaints is that are upset with teh
) )individual, interpersonal treatment you received by members of your
) )particular school. That means soemthing very different than the idea that
) )all teh schools are corrupt and completely negative. Obviously, what
) )happened to you is somethign that needs addressing. I woudln't deny that.
) )In fact, if it continued to happen, it would be doing a great disservice,
) )including to WE itself. Nobody wants this sort of treatment to be the norm:
) )neither people liek yourself, nor those of us who support waldorf.
)
) When I found Steiner cult pseudoscience in our school, my first assumption
) was that the individual teachers were misinformed. Study has revealed that
) pseudoscientific doctrines are essential to Anthroposophy and Waldorf, and
) appear in almost all Waldorf schools.
I was referring to the abuse and disrespect of individuals. If teachers,
etc fail to listen to parents and students, fail to understand their
concerns, fail to work together with them in a way that is good for all,
they are failing as teachers adn as a school. I would venture howver, that
this sort of behavior (and especially teh stigmatizing and harrassing of
children that some have discribed) is not the norm in WE. I'ts certainly
not the point.
I kow you've probably listed this before in teh archives, but what
'pseudoscience' were your children taught, at what age, in what historical
context??? I'd liek to know more....
) This kind of belief is common, unfortunately. I assert that there has never
) been one human being who was "clairvoyant."
WEll, yours is also a common belief, unfortunately. I continue to assert
that there have been clairvoyant person throughout history.
What is so unfortunate about my belief, anyway???
Angelica G. Hesse
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n721.4 ---------------
From: angelica hesse (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: Re: Heart in Main Lesson Book
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 16:30:14 -0400 (EDT)
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In-Reply-To: (199804100641.XAA12459 lists1.best.com) from "Dan Dugan" at Apr 9, 98 11:38:25 pm
) Waldorf students aren't allowed to see films.
IN my school they were......
Angelica
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n721.5 ---------------
From: angelica hesse (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: Re: CULT/ST RUDY/inflammatory-ness
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 16:29:05 -0400 (EDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In-Reply-To: (199804100641.XAA12600 lists1.best.com) from "Dan Dugan" at Apr 9, 98 11:38:27 pm
) )all of us, on both sides of this issue. Cult, at least to me, implies a
) )society BASED on control and manipulation. It also brings to mind too many
) )images of people committing suicide.
)
) Yes, it does. Better you shouldn't associate with a cult-like organization,
) if you don't want to be tarred with that brush.
WEll, my friend, I dont' consider the circles I've been in to be cultlike.
I've heard of soem that are, but I woudl have nothign to do with soemthign
like that.
) When I pointed out that teaching that Newton was wrong about white light
) being composed of a mixture of colors, and that Goethe was right, the
) teacher laughed. The school had a great gift to give to us, an advanced
) view of science. It was not for me to correct them. Cult-like behavior,
) again.
Maybe yoru school has become somehow too inbred, cult-like? I've not been
there, so I can't testify. It certainly doesn't sound like a very positive
atmospher (at least from your description). HOwever, I never observed this
sort of energy around my school. And I remember quite specifically,
learning in 6th grade taht white light contains all colors. I ever remember
teh projection demo: cyan, magenta, yellow lights projected onto a sheet.
Objects place in front of indidual lights produced complementary shadows...
etc. I can still see it all, vividly. And I heard it all over again in my
graphics course this week (re: computer screens, photoshop, printing, color
separations, color gammets, etc, etc).
) When I requested an audience with the College of Teachers, I was told they
) were too busy. A committee of teachers met with me to tell me that I had to
) shut up or our family would be expelled. Definitely cult-like
I wonder, how rude were you being or not being yourself. Were you
cooperating with them as you expected them to do with you????? Just
wondering...
ANgelica G. Hese
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n721.6 ---------------
From: angelica hesse (hesse96 matrix.newpaltz.edu)
Subject: Re: Free hallucinogenic drugs in your mailbox, (and make $$$ while your at it)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 16:32:01 -0400 (EDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In-Reply-To: (199804100641.XAA12577 lists1.best.com) from "Dan Dugan" at Apr 9, 98 11:38:23 pm
DAN:
) I've been studying Waldorf and Anthroposophy for about nine years; I have
) little knowledge of other educational approaches so I have little to say
) about them. I do recommend E.D. Hirsch's "The Schools We Need, and Why We
) Don't Have Them," which deconstructs the vocabulary of 20th-century
) "progressive education." Much of this vocabulary is shared with Waldorf.
) The book is available from the PLANS bookstore on our web site
) (http://www.waldorfcritics.org).
It soudn like maybe before you make WE look like the worst educational
philosophy around, mabye you should COMPARE it to the other available
philosophies. Woudl that be such a crazy idea?
ANgelica
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n721.7 ---------------
From: Daniel Sabsay (danielsabsay earthlink.net)
Subject: Homeopathic survey
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 98 16:29:26 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Waldorf students & grads:
1) Did your Waldorf school have an assigned anthroposophic doctor or
nurse?
2) Did your Waldorf school have a cabinet with a homeopathic first aid
kit?
Is there some kind of homeopathic antiseptic?
3) What was the attitude of the school doctor/nurse, and your school,
toward
vaccinations?
-- Daniel Sabsay, president
East Bay Skeptics Society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n721.8 ---------------
From: Daniel Sabsay (danielsabsay earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: computers
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 98 17:50:54 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Angelica wrote )
)WEll dan, if it's any consolation to you, I took an introductory computer
)science course (including programing) at Vassar college and recevieved an
)almost effortless 'A'
It's not a consolation, but I am impressed.
-- Daniel Sabsay, president
East Bay Skeptics Society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n721.9 ---------------
From: Daniel Sabsay (danielsabsay earthlink.net)
Subject: Schisms in anthroposophy?
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 98 17:55:38 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Joel A. Wendt (hermit microweb.com) wrote )
)Not everything that applies the name anthroposophy to itself is
)anthroposophy, much the same way that anything which calls itself
)humanism or christianity does not have to have anything to do with those
)views of the world.
What do you have in mind? Who decides? What about anthroposophical
medicine, and anthroposopical agriculture?
-- Daniel Sabsay, president
East Bay Skeptics Society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n721.10 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: To Michael Kopp
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 20:45:12 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
My private post keeps bouncing - so sorry for using the list to communicate.
School is out this week (spring break). Maybe some folks are taking a
vacation..
Deby
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n721 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n722 --------------
001 - "Joel A. Wendt" (hermit m - Re: Schisms in anthroposophy?
002 - Michael Kopp (mkopp actri - Test -- disregard.
003 - Michael Kopp (mkopp actri - Test 6 -- disregard.
004 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: Homeopathic survey
005 - Michael Kopp (mkopp actri - What should we know about Steiner or other educations?
006 - Robert Flannery (litvas i - Re: What should we know about Steiner or other educations?
007 - Robert Flannery (litvas i - Michael's Preamble
008 - Robert Flannery (litvas i - Re: What should we know about Steiner or other educations?
009 - Michael Kopp (mkopp actri - Kopp's pseudoscience answers to Flannery (Was Re: What should
010 - Robert Flannery (litvas i - Re: Kopp's pseudoscience answers to Flannery (Was Re: What sho
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n722.1 ---------------
From: "Joel A. Wendt" (hermit microweb.com)
Subject: Re: Schisms in anthroposophy?
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 22:23:47 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (199804120057.RAA23566 lists1.best.com)
Daniel Sabsay wrote:
)
) Joel A. Wendt (hermit microweb.com) wrote )
)
) )Not everything that applies the name anthroposophy to itself is
) )anthroposophy, much the same way that anything which calls itself
) )humanism or christianity does not have to have anything to do with those
) )views of the world.
)
) What do you have in mind? Who decides? What about anthroposophical
) medicine, and anthroposopical agriculture?
Daniel,
I have posted about this before. Perhaps you were not present when I
did this. I hesitate to repeat matters.
If you would like, I will try to find a copy in my files and send the
main post to you.
Please let me know what you want.
joel wendt
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n722.2 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: Test -- disregard.
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 17:59:04 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n722.3 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: Test 6 -- disregard.
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 18:52:11 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna
aliquam erat volutpat. Ut wisi enim ad minim veniam, quis
nostrud exerci tation ullamcorper suscipit lobortis nisl ut
aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis autem vel eum iriure
dolor in hendrerit in vulputate velit esse molestie
consequat, vel illum dolore eu feugiat nulla facilisis at
vero eros et accumsan et iusto odio dignissim qui blandit
praesent luptatum zzril delenit augue duis dolore te feugait
nulla facilisi.
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed
diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna
aliquam erat volutpat. Ut wisi enim ad minim veniam, quis
nostrud exerci tation ullamcorper suscipit lobortis nisl ut
aliquip ex ea commodo consequat.
Duis autem vel eum iriure dolor in hendrerit in vulputate
velit esse molestie consequat, vel illum dolore eu feugiat
nulla facilisis at vero eros et accumsan et iusto odio
dignissim qui blandit praesent luptatum zzril delenit augue
duis dolore te feugait nulla facilisi. Nam liber tempor cum
soluta nobis eleifend option congue nihil imperdiet doming id
quod mazim placerat facer possim assum.
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed
diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna
aliquam erat volutpat. Ut wisi enim ad minim veniam, quis
nostrud exerci tation ullamcorper suscipit lobortis nisl ut
aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis autem vel eum iriure
dolor in hendrerit in vulputate velit esse molestie
consequat, vel illum dolore eu feugiat nulla facilisis at
vero eros et accumsan et iusto odio dignissim qui blandit
praesent luptatum zzril delenit augue duis dolore te feugait
nulla facilisi. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer
adipiscing elit, sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut
laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat.Ut wisi enim ad
minim veniam, quis nostrud exerci tation ullamcorper suscipit
lobortis nisl ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis autem
vel eum iriure dolor in hendrerit in vulputate velit esse
molestie consequat, vel illum dolore eu feugiat nulla
facilisis at vero eros et accumsan et iusto odio dignissim
qui blandit praesent luptatum zzril delenit augue duis dolore
te feugait nulla facilisi.
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed
diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna
aliquam erat volutpat.Ut wisi enim ad minim veniam, quis
nostrud exerci tation ullamcorper suscipit lobortis nisl ut
aliquip ex ea commodo consequat.
Duis autem vel eum iriure dolor in hendrerit in vulputate
velit esse molestie consequat, vel illum dolore eu feugiat
nulla facilisis at vero eros et accumsan et iusto odio
dignissim qui blandit praesent luptatum zzril delenit augue
duis dolore te feugait nulla facilisi.
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed
diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna
aliquam erat volutpat. Ut wisi enim ad minim veniam, quis
nostrud exerci tation ullamcorper suscipit lobortis nisl ut
aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis autem vel eum iriure
dolor in hendrerit in vulputate velit esse molestie
consequat, vel illum dolore eu feugiat nulla facilisis
at.Vero eros et accumsan et iusto odio dignissim qui blandit
praesent luptatum zzril delenit augue duis dolore te feugait
nulla facilisi.
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed
diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna
aliquam erat volutpat. Ut wisi enim ad minim veniam, quis
nostrud exerci tation ullamcorper suscipit lobortis nisl ut
aliquip ex ea commodo consequat.Autem vel eum iriure dolor in
hendrerit in vulputate velit esse molestie consequat, vel
illum dolore eu feugiat nulla facilisis at vero eros et
accumsan et iusto odio dignissim qui blandit praesent
luptatum zzril delenit augue duis dolore te feugait nulla
facilisi.
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed
diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna
aliquam erat volutpat. Ut wisi enim ad minim veniam, quis
nostrud exerci tation ullamcorper suscipit lobortis nisl ut
aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis autem vel eum iriure
dolor in hendrerit in vulputate velit esse molestie
consequat, vel illum dolore eu feugiat nulla facilisis at
vero eros et accumsan et iusto odio dignissim qui blandit
praesent luptatum zzril delenit augue duis dolore te feugait
nulla facilisi.
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed
diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna
aliquam erat volutpat. Ut wisi enim ad minim veniam, quis
nostrud exerci tation ullamcorper suscipit lobortis nisl ut
aliquip ex ea commodo consequat.
Duis autem vel eum iriure dolor in hendrerit in vulputate
velit esse molestie consequat, vel illum dolore eu feugiat
nulla facilisis at vero eros et accumsan et iusto odio
dignissim qui blandit praesent luptatum zzril delenit augue
duis dolore te feugait nulla facilisi. Nam liber tempor cum
soluta nobis eleifend option congue nihil imperdiet doming id
quod mazim placerat facer possim assum.
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed
diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna
aliquam erat volutpat. Ut wisi enim ad minim veniam, quis
nostrud exerci tation ullamcorper suscipit lobortis nisl ut
aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis autem vel eum iriure
dolor in hendrerit in vulputate velit esse molestie
consequat, vel illum dolore eu feugiat nulla facilisis at
vero eros et accumsan et iusto odio dignissim qui blandit
praesent luptatum zzril delenit augue duis dolore te feugait
nulla facilisi. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer
adipiscing elit, sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut
laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat.Ut wisi enim ad
minim veniam, quis nostrud exerci tation ullamcorper suscipit
lobortis nisl ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis autem
vel eum iriure dolor in hendrerit in vulputate velit esse
molestie consequat, vel illum dolore eu feugiat nulla
facilisis at vero eros et accumsan et iusto odio dignissim
qui blandit praesent luptatum zzril delenit augue duis dolore
te feugait nulla facilisi.
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed
diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna
aliquam erat volutpat.Ut wisi enim ad minim veniam, quis
nostrud exerci tation ullamcorper suscipit lobortis nisl ut
aliquip ex ea commodo consequat.
Duis autem vel eum iriure dolor in hendrerit in vulputate
velit esse molestie consequat, vel illum dolore eu feugiat
nulla facilisis at vero eros et accumsan et iusto odio
dignissim qui blandit praesent luptatum zzril delenit augue
duis dolore te feugait nulla facilisi.
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed
diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna
aliquam erat volutpat. Ut wisi enim ad minim veniam, quis
nostrud exerci tation ullamcorper suscipit lobortis nisl ut
aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis autem vel eum iriure
dolor in hendrerit in vulputate velit esse molestie
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n722.4 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: Homeopathic survey
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 22:01:20 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (199804112331.QAA03182 lists1.best.com)
)Waldorf students, grads & parents:
)
)1) Did your Waldorf school have an assigned anthroposophic doctor or
)nurse?
Dr. Dudney was the Anthroposophical MD of choice, but the school just made
individual recommendations. We also had a Curative Eurthymist who would
work with kids for a fee. If you needed a remedial evaluation [for your
child], we were referred to an Anthroposophist.
)2) Did your Waldorf school have a cabinet with a homeopathic first aid
)kit?
Yes.
) Is there some kind of homeopathic antiseptic?
Don't know.
)
)3) What was the attitude of the school doctor/nurse, and your school,
)toward
) vaccinations?
I know that many children were not vaccinated at our Waldorf school, but do
not know how many.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n722.5 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: What should we know about Steiner or other educations?
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 19:08:20 +1200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Angelica Hesse, in a thread formerly titled "Re: Free hallucinogenic drugs
in your mailbox, (and make $$$ while your at it)") puts the bone on Dan
Dugan's back regarding (what Ms Hesse says are usually negative)
characterisations of Steiner/ Waldorf/ Anthroposophical (SWA) education on
this list:
Angelica Hesse quoted Dan Dugan:
)) I've been studying Waldorf and Anthroposophy for about nine years; I have
)) little knowledge of other educational approaches so I have little to say
)) about them. I do recommend E.D. Hirsch's "The Schools We Need, and Why We
)) Don't Have Them," which deconstructs the vocabulary of 20th-century
)) "progressive education." Much of this vocabulary is shared with Waldorf.
)) The book is available from the PLANS bookstore on our web site
)) (http://www.waldorfcritics.org).
And Angelica Hesse replied:
)It soudn like maybe before you make WE look like the worst educational
)philosophy around, mabye you should COMPARE it to the other available
)philosophies. Woudl that be such a crazy idea?
)
)ANgelica
KOPP (the Hun, according to Robert Flannery) says:
Okay, let's start with one of the factors which made me so livid about what
our Steiner teachers were doing with my children (belief in reincarnation).
Let's ask those on this list who are or have been Steiner/ Waldorf/
Anthroposophy (SWA) teachers or teacher trainees some direct questions, and
ask for yes or no answers.
(To do this exercise properly requires some background and a bit of depth,
so this post and this thread may take some time. I have made no ad hominem
comments about anyone else in this post. It is a genuine discussion and
search for answers.)
Then we'll also ask any teachers from other disciplines -- particularly in
state schools -- if they practiced the same or similar philosophical tenets
and methods on their students, and to answer the relevant questions about
beliefs, practices, methods and informed consent of parents.
I would suggest that Ms Hesse's (and the other current or former SWA
pupils) answers are not useful in this thread, because a) they often aver
that they never had any knowledge of SWA or what went on behind the
chalkboard while they were in school; b) they claim that they don't seem to
have been harmed by SWA; and c) SWA routinely claims that "Anthroposophy is
not in the classroom". Later (I would suggest in another thread, if they
feel they must respond) we may ask them if they have any problem with
having been educated by such a system _without their knowledge_.
One thing should be kept in mind in the following discussion: my Steiner
school is in a similar circumstance to those public or publicly-funded
state schools, particularly in the U.S., which are either wholly or
partially SWA schools.
Private schools have different legal standings and are not subject to
either the same constitutional, legal or ethical standards as apply to U.S.
public or New Zealand "integrated, charter" schools. No one on this list
argues that anything should be forced upon private SWA schools except those
existing laws governing contracts between people or mandated by state
authorities; however, critics say the following should apply to them as
well.
Let's start with the assertion, made by critics, based both on scholarly
research into Steiner's ouvre and their present personal knowledge, that
SWA schools make use of a belief in reincarnation in their teaching and
treatment of individual children.
Some critics assert that SWA believes and/or practices the following:
*that we are immortal spirits which reincarnate;
*that this process imvolves ascendency through ever higher levels of being;
*that we choose our mode of reincarnation and our parents;
*that children incarnate in stages (which leads to the Steiner pedagogical
dogma of not reading till age seven, and not being able to think
abstractly, intellectually, until age 14);
*that it is the fundamental mission of SWA education to aid in this process
for the purpose of preparing us for a more enlightened and therefore higher
and more successful next incarnation;
* that SWA teachers study the "karma", or current incarnation's nature and
meaning, of individual students according to this occult knowledge of
reincarnation and base their educational handling of students on it.
Now, for my part, to answer Ms Hesse's particular questions about my
experience: we knew none of this when we enrolled our children, despite a
lot of homework.
We would not have enrolled our children in such a school if we had known.
We did a great deal more than most prospective parents to learn what SWA was.
I believe we were duped. I believe that the SWA methods practiced on our
children harmed them and certainly harmed me and my relationship with them.
We attended several pre-enrollment lectures (I have detailed notes). We
read a number of standard works of and about SWA education. We asked
questions of a number of current parents in the school. We visited the
school (though we were not allowed to sit in on a main lesson or any other
class in session.
We told the school authorities that I was a scientific skeptic who did not
believe in anything supernatural (it didn't matter to them) and that I did
not want any religious or supernatural education for my children. We were
told there was no such practice in the school.
We asked many direct questions of school authorities. (It never occurred to
me to ask if they believed in reincarnation and would base my children's
education on it -- there was no hint of it, and this list did not exist
then; nor had I read Steiner directly, and the school's parent library was
not available to prospective parents.)
We did not enquire directly into Anthroposophy in detail because there were
no warning signs of its occult, supernatural, mystical, esoteric, nature in
anything we read. We did know it had a spiritual element. But: we were told
Anthroposophy was not in the classroom, that we did not need to involve
ourselves in it or know anything about it, that the school followed the
state-mandated curriculum in addition to the special- character Waldorf
curriculum, and that Anthroposophy only "informed" the educational methods.
We were told that the spiritual aspects of the education were
"Christian-based", that there were no religious events in the school except
for "festivals". We were told that our participation in any of this was
invited but not required.
We had read interesting and seemingly-attractive and progressive things
about SWA education that were alternatives to the somewhat chancy state
educational system (in which I had long believed but which was in a parlous
state worldwide).
These included the "head-heart-hands" approach; the integration of all
subjects into a main lesson system; the use of handwritten and
hand-illustrated workbooks (which looked good to us in samples) to
inculcate a number of disciplines of which we approved, like thinking
before writing and good penmanship; students remaining with the same
teacher for several years (in our children's case, fewer years because they
started in year 5 and 7); the small, private, seemingly quiet and
respectful nature of the campus and the relationships between staff and
students; and a classical theme to the special-character curriculum which
promised to shed light for the children on what it means to be human.
I do not want to dwell in this thread on any of these except reincarnation,
nor do I want to get into how we became disabused of our trust and beliefs
as outlined above -- I've done it before, here, anyway, and never gotten
anywhere with adherrents to SWA, who pass everything off as our fault,
isolated, exceptional, unbelievable, or "regrettable".
Suffice to say, we became almost totally disillusioned, save for the good
relations between a few teachers and our children, relations which remain
good today (we live next to the school, and some of the teachers are
involved in extracurricular activities our kids are into). Our kids also
retain good relationships with some of the students -- curiously, with
those who are not either interested in Anthroposophy themselves or have
parents who are deeply into it or the running of the school.
For this thread about reincarnation and disclosure, here are my objections:
We were duped by the school authorities through their omission of salient
and very obviously weird-to-ordinary-people ideas and practices. This
amounts to deceptive advertising and breach of contract.
Our children were subjected to an education based on spiritualist beliefs
and practices which we were not told about. In some places under some laws
this could be considered criminal (I don't know about New Zealand's law in
this respect -- yet).
Specifically, we should have been told that Steiner, SWA and this
particular school operated on a belief in reincarnation, karma, and its
meaning to childrens' educations, and that our children would be studied
according to this system by the staff and that decisions about their
education would be made according to them _without our knowledge,
consultation or ability to intervene_.
Now, here are the questions for people like Flannery: teachers and teacher
trainees, . Remember, the question of whether these things are
characteristic of SWA has been debated here before, and is not the issue
now, so just answer the following questions, please.
Do you personally believe in reincarnation?
Is it your experience that reincarnation is a fundamental tenet of SWA?
Does the SWA movement or your school actually practice a pedagogy based on
this belief and its use in determining students' careers?
Have you personally ever made decisions about a student based on
spiritualist beliefs and tenets such as reincarnation (as in Steiner's
pedagogy), either by yourself or inconsultation with other teachers and
staff, and have you conveyed those decisions to the students' parents?
Are prospective parents at SWA schools in general, or yours in particular,
informed of these practices and beliefs before they enroll their children?
Are prospective parents told that this system is immutable and that they
must take it or leave it?
Is there written documentation regarding all the aspects of SWA education
available to prospective parents, and does it mention reinarnation?*
Are parents asked to sign any agreement based on such written information?
Would it be fair for any school to practice spiritualism in any way without
the knowledge of the parents?
Do parents or prospective students of public schools (in the U.S., at
least) not have greater access, legally mandated, to the educational
philosophy upon which public schools are based, than is evident in either
private or public SWA schools?
If the answers to the above questions are in general as asserted by Waldorf
Critics, do you not find these practices by SWA unconscionable?
NOW, for the non-SWA teachers (and no hybrids or crossovers, please):
answer the above questions as they apply to your circumstances.
*For newcomers to the list, I once wrote a list of what I would have wanted
to know before enrolling my children in an SWA school, that was either not
volunteered by the school or answered in my questioning of people and other
sources.
This was followed by the posting of a proposed list of articles of
information that SWA schools should provide for prospective parents,
written by Daniel Saykaly.
In a little while (after this thread has had time to get established) I
will repost those earlier lists of what we should have known, with the
specific dates they were posted, in case anyone wants to see the
surrounding discussions.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n722.6 ---------------
From: Robert Flannery (litvas icu.com)
Subject: Re: What should we know about Steiner or other educations?
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 14:41:23 -0700 (PDT)
)Now, here are the questions for people like Flannery: teachers and teacher
)trainees, . Remember, the question of whether these things are
)characteristic of SWA has been debated here before, and is not the issue
)now, so just answer the following questions, please.
I am in the process of going through your questionnaire, Michael.
I would appreciate it if you would reciprocate, and take a moment to
provide some background information I asked you for earlier this week.
With regard to the issue of science and waldorf:
Was one teacher involved in teaching your son the material on alchemy,
sound power/pyramids, and the heart; or was it a product of several faculty
members at the school? Secondly, was all this pseudoscience part of a
single block of material (by "block" I refer to the practice in waldorf
schools of teaching subjects in concentrations of 3 to 6 weeks), or was it
spread through a number of science courses?
I ask because I'm trying to determine whether your experience with science
(which is rightfully held up as negative) is the product of a single
misguided teacher or the school as a whole.
Thanks for your attention to this. I should have some answers for you to
respond to later today.
Robert Flannery
New York
litvas icu.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n722.7 ---------------
From: Robert Flannery (litvas icu.com)
Subject: Michael's Preamble
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 12:55:46 -0400
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In-Reply-To: (199804120707.AAA26311 lists1.best.com)
Michael Kopp has resurrected himself, appropriately enough, on Easter
Sunday. He reports that this post, at least, is "(italic)ad
hominem(/italic)-free". I hope this represents a new beginning.
In the first part of a long post, Michael lays out some premises which
he says are based on the research and experience of some of the
critics:
)SWA routinely claims that "Anthroposophy is
)not in the classroom".
What has been said is that anthroposophy is not
(bold)(italic)(underline)taught(/underline)(/italic)(/bold) in the
classroom. It might seem like a small point, but the distinction is
critical (especially in light of the questions you ask, below).
Many, if not most teachers are anthroposophists. Given such a
situation, it would be incorrect to say that anthroposophy is not in
the classroom. The study of anthroposophy relates directly to how the
curriculum is presented, but the curriculum does not include the
teaching of anthroposophical tenets (unless someone has been
overzealous and failed to respect the proper boundaries).
As an aside, such blind zeal is often indicative of the
anthroposophical "fundamentalists" who could be considered religious in
their fervor. These people do exist in nearly every school, both in
the faculty and in the parent body (but even within this subculture,
the teachers generally keep their own anthroposophy separated from what
they teach their students).
)Let's start with the assertion, made by critics, based both on
scholarly
)research into Steiner's ouvre and their present personal knowledge,
that
)SWA schools make use of a belief in reincarnation in their teaching
and
)treatment of individual children.
)*that we are immortal spirits which reincarnate;
)*that this process imvolves ascendency through ever higher levels of
being;
)*that we choose our mode of reincarnation and our parents;
I'm not sure about choosing our "mode of reincarnation"--I can't puzzle
out what you mean by this, and I haven't come across anything in
anthroposophy which sounds similar. The thing about the parents is
commonly presented in waldorf circles.
)*that children incarnate in stages (which leads to the Steiner
pedagogical
)dogma of not reading till age seven, and not being able to think
)abstractly, intellectually, until age 14);
This is fine, generally, but realize that these ages are presented as
loose guides. For instance, it is felt that the etheric body
incarnates
(bold)(italic)(underline)approximately(/underline)(/italic)(/bold)
between the ages of six and fourteen.
)*that it is the fundamental mission of SWA education to aid in this
process
)for the purpose of preparing us for a more enlightened and therefore
higher
)and more successful next incarnation;
I have problems with this statement.
First, I think the primary goal of waldorf education (both in theory
and in practice) is to bring chidren to a capacity for freedom in their
thinking. This involves an openness to possibilities (which Michael
has characterized as a willingness to believe anything), and a
flexibility in the thinking process itself which can lead to innovation
and creativity.
Steiner clearly states that developing latent capacities in human
beings is a long-term goal of a proper education--that these capacities
will flower only in future incarnations. I hadn't heard this concept
discussed anywhere in the anthroposophical circles I frequent, though I
had come across it in my reading. When it was brought up on this list
a few months ago, I spoke with some of my colleagues about it, to
measure their feeling for it within the school. They supported the
idea, but didn't expound on what it means, in practical terms.
It was never mentioned during my teacher training and it generally
isn't discussed in waldorf circles. I think it isn't talked about
because few waldorf teachers understand what it would involve, if
they're aware of Steiner's comments on this matter, at all. I
certainly don't have any idea how to practice this.
So it may have been a primary goal of waldorf education for Rudolf
Steiner, but I don't think this survives as a guiding principal in
waldorf education, today, in terms of practice (though some teachers
may carry it as some kind of an ideal).
)* that SWA teachers study the "karma", or current incarnation's nature
and
)meaning, of individual students according to this occult knowledge of
)reincarnation and base their educational handling of students on it.
I don't agree with this one in the slightest, but I've heard on this
list that this does happen.
During my years of preparation for becoming a waldorf teacher, I became
very interested in this whole idea. I asked two leading figures in
waldorf teacher training, on two separate occasions, about these
concepts--how can a teacher understand karma generally, the karma of a
child specifically, and finally work with this in a classroom setting.
They both pretty much told me the same thing: that it was presumptuous
of me to believe that I could have any workable knowledge of this, and
that I was badly over-reaching if I thought that I could consciously
intervene in it.
The whole idea of "karma" is very easy to mishandle. I knew an
Australian waldorf teacher in California who had spent two years trying
to trace the karmic connections of himself and a group of his
acquaintances back home. He claimed that he had worked out lots of
stuff for them all over many lifetimes. I have no doubt that he would
agree wholeheartedly with your statement, above.
I've also had a married friend tell me that she was approached at a
workshop by a stranger who told her that they were "karmically
connected". He then proceeded to make a pass at her.
Notions of "karma" are pretty easy to misuse. You don't have to be an
anthroposophist to understand what I mean by this, if you're old enough
to remember the sixties and seventies.
I've been involved in a lot of child studies in waldorf schools. I
have yet to hear anyone address the issues of a particular child from
the point of view of his or her karma (but I do remember Deby talking
about this happening in her school). I think most teachers are in awe
of the whole idea that we are linked over successive lifetimes, and
understand that it is in no way a simple concept that can be applied in
a mechanical way, or discussed in terms of its specifics like a
science. We all take our responsibilities with the children quite
seriously, and I believe few of us would be reckless enough to work
with a child based on our determination of what constituted his or her
past life.
Like the idea of teaching towards a future incarnation, or the idea of
Steiner's racial theories, the whole anthroposophical notion of karma
is too complex for most teachers to grasp. Nowhere does Steiner lay
out "laws of karma". The best he does is give examples of how ideas
and deeds carry over from death to rebirth. There is an eight-volume
cycle of lectures which does little more than give case study after
case study--fascinating reading for an anthroposophist, but little that
can be applied in a formulaic way.
I'm also aware of what Rene Querido has written on this subject (which
I recall Dan Dugan quoting), and I don't agree with him.
I pay attention to everything my students do and say (and everything
they don't do or say). I observe and remember (and techniques which I
have discovered in anthroposophy have enhanced both my observation and
memory), and then try to build a picture of who this child really
is--what are their strengths to nurture, and what are the weaknesses
which need attention? Based on these observations and conclusions, I
try to give them what they need in a timely and digestible fashion. I
often consult with parents and fellow faculty members about children.
I don't think about them in terms of their karma.
I believe I'm pretty typical of all kinds of teachers everywhere in
this approach (although I will state my bias and say that I think I am
generally better at observing and remembering, because of my studies).
I'll include my responses to Michael's questionnaire in a separate
post.
Robert Flannery
New York
litvas icu.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n722.8 ---------------
From: Robert Flannery (litvas icu.com)
Subject: Re: What should we know about Steiner or other educations?
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 15:13:07 -0400
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In-Reply-To: (199804120707.AAA26311 lists1.best.com)
Michael Kopp has submitted a list of questions.
)Now, here are the questions for people like Flannery: teachers and teacher
)trainees, . Remember, the question of whether these things are
)characteristic of SWA has been debated here before, and is not the issue
)now, so just answer the following questions, please.
Some of these questions have presumptions built into them which I don't
accept, or are too broad to be answered without clarification. Since I'll
try to make that clear as I reply, I may not be able to simply "just
answer".
The loose characterization of "SWA" doesn't lend itself well to some of
these questions. There is, actually, a difference between Rudolf Steiner
and waldorf schools and anthroposophy. They're not interchangeable.
The first two questions, though, are straightforward enough.
)Do you personally believe in reincarnation?
Yes. I've felt strongly about this since I was about twelve or thirteen.
)Is it your experience that reincarnation is a fundamental tenet of SWA?
Yes.
)Does the SWA movement or your school actually practice a pedagogy based on
)this belief and its use in determining students' careers?
If you want me to "just answer the question", the answer is "no".
I think I gave a longer answer to this question in my post from earlier
today called "Michael's Preamble". Here's the statement Michael made
earlier. He presents this same idea of waldorf teachers intervening in a
deterministic fashion in their students' lives:
)* that SWA teachers study the "karma", or current incarnation's nature and
)meaning, of individual students according to this occult knowledge of
)reincarnation and base their educational handling of students on it.
I won't eat up bandwidth by copying what I said earlier. The relevant post
should precede this one in your mailboxes. Again, it's headed "Michael's
Preamble".
)Have you personally ever made decisions about a student based on
)spiritualist beliefs and tenets such as reincarnation (as in Steiner's
)pedagogy), either by yourself or inconsultation with other teachers and
)staff, and have you conveyed those decisions to the students' parents?
No. See the answer which I make reference to in the preceding question.
)Are prospective parents at SWA schools in general, or yours in particular,
)informed of these practices and beliefs before they enroll their children?
Yes and no.
When I've enrolled children into my class who came from our kindergarten or
another waldorf school, I mention something in the interview with the
parents about the teaching coming out of anthroposophy, explaining that
anthroposophy informs decisions but is not taught in the classroom, etc.
(this part has definitely been addressed on the list before). If parents
have more questions about anthroposophy here, I'll certainly answer them,
but I generally assume that they have a basic understanding of this because
of their prior exposure.
For parents who are new to waldorf, I used to give them a copy of "The
Essential Steiner" by Robert McDermott and "A Family Guide to Waldorf
Education", by Michaelmas Press. The McDermott book contains writings and
lectures of Steiner on karma, the Akashic Record, esoteric Christianity,and
much more out-of-the-mainstream stuff (tho I'm not sure that reincarnation
is any longer "out of the mainstream"). I strongly encouraged them to read
these books, and come back to me with questions. I have stopped giving out
these titles because I don't get them back often enough.
Now, with parents coming from outside waldorf circles, I usually say
something like "Waldorf education is based on an understanding of
anthroposophy. Most class teachers here are anthroposophists.
Anthroposophy stems from the work of Rudolf Steiner, a european philosopher
and mystic who died in 1925. It involves a belief in reincarnation, and we
tend to view children as beings who exist both before and after birth,
through successive lives. Anthroposophy is unlike anything you've probably
ever encountered before, so it is in your best interest to find out as much
about it as you can before you enroll your child, to avoid being surprised
by something in the future."
Then I give them the names of books (such as the McDermott book) where they
can find out more about it. I also generally mention something about the
school following a calendar of Christian festivals, but make it clear that
this may not involve what they would recognize as Christianity.
)Are prospective parents told that this system is immutable and that they
)must take it or leave it?
No. They are told that they are expected to support the school, and that
such support involves a financial committment, a time committment, and an
openness to questions of timing, development and therapy.
Recently, our school had a school-wide parent evening devoted to a
presentation and discussion of the role of the school doctor and the
therapies which can be used in waldorf education. The doctor was making an
introduction, but was interrupted by a parent from my class, who challenged
the use of eurythmy as a therapeutic tool.
Later, I was told by the wife of this man that he had been cornered by
other parents on a few occasions since and told, "if you don't believe in
anthroposophy and anthroposophical medicine, you should just leave".
I wrote a letter to this man. In it, I said that nothing that is done in
our school should be taken on faith alone. The issue he raised is a good
one, and he has a right to want an answer. If we, as teachers, cannot back
up what we do in understandable language, we have no business doing it. I
told him that I knew of no one on the faculty or staff within the school
who would support what those parents had subsequently said to him. I told
him that if what he had been told by those parents were true, then we were
nothing more than a cult.
Note my implication: support and belief are two different things.
Parents can, and usually do, support waldorf education without believing in
anthroposophy. If a school is healthy, the great majority of parents and
teachers will be open to a continuing dialogue about the philosophy of the
school with regard to its pedagogy, financing, and therapies.
The parents who this gentleman had his difficulties with are the "zealots",
who embody many of the dogmatic qualities which represent waldorf education
at its worst. As I said earlier today:
. . ."such blind zeal is often indicative of the anthroposophical
"fundamentalists" who could be considered religious in their fervor. These
people do exist in nearly every school, both in the faculty and in the
parent body."
They are, thankfully, a minority that is fast approaching the vanishing
point at my school.
)Is there written documentation regarding all the aspects of SWA education
)available to prospective parents, and does it mention reinarnation?*
We have a school lending library, which is available to such parents. It's
small, but comprehensive.
I also have a recommended reading list for new parents, which I've mentioned.
)Are parents asked to sign any agreement based on such written information?
No.
)Would it be fair for any school to practice spiritualism in any way without
)the knowledge of the parents?
Good grief! How can I possibly answer such a question?
What do you mean by "practice spiritualism"? For that matter, what do you
mean by "spiritualism"?
)Do parents or prospective students of public schools (in the U.S., at
)least) not have greater access, legally mandated, to the educational
)philosophy upon which public schools are based, than is evident in either
)private or public SWA schools?
I don't believe so. I spent twelve years in public schools, and I don't
believe my parents or I were ever made aware that there was an educatonal
philosophy behind these schools.
)From what I've been told by my friends who have children in the public
schools, pre-enrollment discussions usually center on the mechanics of a
specific school: district boundaries, bus schedules, special programs
(such as gifted and remedial), and specific courses offered. I don't know
of anyone who has ever been given access to or even reminded of the
educational philosophy of public schools.
I didn't know a thing about John Dewey until we discussed him in waldorf
teacher training at Sunbridge College.
)If the answers to the above questions are in general as asserted by Waldorf
)Critics, do you not find these practices by SWA unconscionable?
I hope my answers make it clear that my experience is not in lockstep with
your assertions.
)In a little while (after this thread has had time to get established) I
)will repost those earlier lists of what we should have known, with the
)specific dates they were posted, in case anyone wants to see the
)surrounding discussions.
I would love to see those lists again, along with the latest version of the
"disclosure document".
Robert Flannery
New York
litvas icu.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n722.9 ---------------
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: Kopp's pseudoscience answers to Flannery (Was Re: What should we
know about Steiner or other educations?)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:24:24 +1200
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References: (199804120707.AAA26311 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199804121419.HAA05540 lists1.best.com)
Robert Flannery quoted Michael Kopp and asked for some answers to his own
earlier questions (happy to oblige):
))Now, here are the questions for people like Flannery: teachers and teacher
))trainees, . Remember, the question of whether these things are
))characteristic of SWA has been debated here before, and is not the issue
))now, so just answer the following questions, please.
)
)I am in the process of going through your questionnaire, Michael.
)
)I would appreciate it if you would reciprocate, and take a moment to
)provide some background information I asked you for earlier this week.
)
)With regard to the issue of science and waldorf:
)
)Was one teacher involved in teaching your son the material on alchemy,
)sound power/pyramids, and the heart; or was it a product of several faculty
)members at the school? Secondly, was all this pseudoscience part of a
)single block of material (by "block" I refer to the practice in waldorf
)schools of teaching subjects in concentrations of 3 to 6 weeks), or was it
)spread through a number of science courses?
)
)I ask because I'm trying to determine whether your experience with science
)(which is rightfully held up as negative) is the product of a single
)misguided teacher or the school as a whole.
Several teachers, from the English teacher (!) to the chemistry teacher to
the maths teacher to the physics teacher; male and female; different lesson
blocks over a period of months and years; not isolated instances but part
of a discernable attitude towards science, including the usual fringe
colours "experiments" and Newton-denial syndrome and a main lesson teaching
astrology (denied by the staff, but I saw it with my own eyes).
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
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From: Robert Flannery (litvas icu.com)
Subject: Re: Kopp's pseudoscience answers to Flannery (Was Re: What should
we know about Steiner or other educations?)
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 17:49:55 -0400
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References: (199804121419.HAA05540 lists1.best.com)
(199804120707.AAA26311 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199804122123.OAA09897 lists1.best.com)
))I ask because I'm trying to determine whether your experience with science
))(which is rightfully held up as negative) is the product of a single
))misguided teacher or the school as a whole.
)Several teachers, from the English teacher (!) to the chemistry teacher to
)the maths teacher to the physics teacher; male and female; different lesson
)blocks over a period of months and years; not isolated instances but part
)of a discernable attitude towards science, including the usual fringe
)colours "experiments" and Newton-denial syndrome and a main lesson teaching
)astrology (denied by the staff, but I saw it with my own eyes).
Thanks, Michael. I appreciate this information.
Robert Flannery
New York
litvas icu.com
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-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n723 --------------
001 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Astrology/WE
002 - Michael Kopp (mkopp actri - ADMIN SUGGESTION Re: What should we know about Steiner or othe
003 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: Homeopathic survey
004 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: computers
005 - Robert Flannery (litvas i - Re: ADMIN SUGGESTION Re: What should we know about Steiner or
006 - Ezra Beeman (ezra save-am - Re: What should we know about Steiner or other educations?
007 - Neil Faiman (faiman zko.d - Re: What should we know about Steiner or other educations?
008 - "Cymen Vig" (cymen ziplin - Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n720
009 - angelica hesse (hesse96 m - Re: computers (sorry, I'm bragging!)
010 - angelica hesse (hesse96 m - Re: Homeopathic survey
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From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Astrology/WE
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 15:29:45 -0800
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References: (199804122123.OAA09897 lists1.best.com)
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(199804120707.AAA26311 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199804122141.OAA16841 lists1.best.com)
Michael Kopp writes
[snip]
. . . and a main lesson teaching
))astrology (denied by the staff, but I saw it with my own eyes).
)
Students at Twin Ridges made an astrology lesson book.
Debra
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From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: ADMIN SUGGESTION Re: What should we know about Steiner or other
educations?
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 12:06:08 +1200
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In-Reply-To: (199804121903.MAA08438 lists1.best.com)
Can I _strongly_ suggest that we not respond immediately to the statements
Flannery -- or any other teacher -- makes in response to either Kopp's
"preamble", the questions themselves, or Kopp's answers to Flannery's
questions.
Instead, let's wait until other teachers or teacher trainees have had an
opportunity to respond or answer the questionnaire.
And others who answer the questionnaire should also ignore Flannery's or
others' answers when they are supplying theirs.
If we jump in now and flog the issues, it will distort the answers of others.
Flannery is one of the most voluble responders to criticisms, and we've
usually been around the block with him on most of the things he has said in
response to this query.
However, he has said some new things that are interesting, (aside from his
continued gratuitous and patronising comments about Kopp (g)) and it would
be better to wait a bit before arguing them.
Cheers from Godzone,
Michael Kopp
Wellington, New Zealand
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From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: Homeopathic survey
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 18:04:28 -0700
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My school...
Daniel Sabsay wrote:
) Waldorf students & grads:
)
) 1) Did your Waldorf school have an assigned anthroposophic doctor or
) nurse?
Nope.
)
)
)
) 2) Did your Waldorf school have a cabinet with a homeopathic first aid
) kit?
) Is there some kind of homeopathic antiseptic?
No, but some of the kids on the basketball team (on their own) used arnica
for sore muscles.
)
)
) 3) What was the attitude of the school doctor/nurse, and your school,
) toward
) vaccinations?
We didn't have nurse. I got all my vaccinations.
)
)
) -- Daniel Sabsay, president
) East Bay Skeptics Society
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From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: computers
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 18:07:40 -0700
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References: (199804120053.RAA21816 lists1.best.com)
My symbolic logic class included learning and programming in Prolog, generally
an AI language. It is a set based language similiar to Lisp. Got an A. That
is the limit of my formal education in CS. I learned UNIX administration on
my own.
ezra "RTFM" beeman
Daniel Sabsay wrote:
) Angelica wrote )
)
) )WEll dan, if it's any consolation to you, I took an introductory computer
) )science course (including programing) at Vassar college and recevieved an
) )almost effortless 'A'
)
) It's not a consolation, but I am impressed.
)
) -- Daniel Sabsay, president
) East Bay Skeptics Society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n723.5 ---------------
From: Robert Flannery (litvas icu.com)
Subject: Re: ADMIN SUGGESTION Re: What should we know about Steiner or
other educations?
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:21:34 -0400
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(199804120707.AAA26311 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (199804130005.RAA19095 lists1.best.com)
)Can I _strongly_ suggest that we not respond immediately to the statements
)Flannery -- or any other teacher -- makes in response to either Kopp's
)"preamble", the questions themselves, or Kopp's answers to Flannery's
)questions.
)
)Instead, let's wait until other teachers or teacher trainees have had an
)opportunity to respond or answer the questionnaire.
Well, Michael, it's not likely you'll have very many teachers jumping into
this one. It's not something most of us enjoy.
It's probably just going to be the two of us.
Robert Flannery
New York
litvas icu.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n723.6 ---------------
From: Ezra Beeman (ezra save-america.org)
Subject: Re: What should we know about Steiner or other educations?
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 18:46:32 -0700
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)
)
) Do you personally believe in reincarnation?
Nope
)
)
) Is it your experience that reincarnation is a fundamental tenet of SWA?
Not the W part.
)
)
) Does the SWA movement or your school actually practice a pedagogy based on
) this belief and its use in determining students' careers?
Not mine, we were given one of those silly personality test in HS.
) Would it be fair for any school to practice spiritualism in any way without
) the knowledge of the parents?
If you are suggesting that all the teachers be atheist/humanist/materialist, that
is ridiculous.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n723.7 ---------------
From: Neil Faiman (faiman zko.dec.com)
Subject: Re: What should we know about Steiner or other educations?
Date: Mon