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From ??? ??? Fri Aug 08 21:44:49 1997
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From: litvas icu.com
Subject: Re: Contract Offer
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 97 08:51:41 -0400
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)KOPP says:
)
)Flannery cannot know the truth of the matter vis-a-vis Kathy,
PLANS, the
)school board, Rigby, etc. any better than any of the rest of us.
Michael, you are quite correct.
)So for Flannery to refer to a "litany of misrepresentations"
(presumably
)including the events surrounding Kathy, which he has doubted
elsewhere) is
)a great leap of logic.
That's your characterization. The best way to clear up the whole
issue
is to get better information; i.e. from the sources, Dan Dugan and
Deby
Snell.
Since they do not seem to be eager to step forward, my sense of
doubt and
mistrust will only grow.
)The matter is now sub-judice, and Kathy has been advised not to
say more in
)public. Neither should anyone else, until the legal issues are
determined.
Kathy doesn't seem to have any problems stating her case on the
list,
despite allusions to attorneys dancing in the wings.
I know nothing about litigation, pending or otherwise. Michael, as
a
champion of free speech, you must be aware of the chilling effect
of such
assertions.
But you seem to disregard your own advice to abstain from comment
in your
very next sentence:
)However, if people keep using information which apprarently could
have been
)gained only through unethical and perhaps even illegal means, I
will
)personally continue to attack that use of information and doubt
its
)validity. I will also continue to chastise the people who use it
so.
What type of a qualifier is "apparently could have been"?
Seems like a pretty tenous conclusion.
If you wish to attack and chastise based on such fragile grounds,
I'm
surprised. I was under the impression that you were a proponent of
working from sound evidence.
)As I said before, as a journalist, I try to verify all
information from two
)independent, preferably documentary sources. Have the people who
claim to
)know Kathy's intimite and private personal and personnel details
done that?
We share the same concerns. What steps did you take, Dan and Deby,
to
substantiate the claims you made in your press release?
)Have they considered the personal cost to Kathy of revealing the
)information to preserve their own position? Have they considered
the
)potential legal liability they are incurring?
These are questions for Dan and Deby, too.
From ??? ??? Fri Aug 08 21:45:33 1997
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From: John Calkins (calkins kodak.com)
Subject: Re: Natural and Supernatural
Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 10:36:06 -0400
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This note is in response to some of Kopp's comments.
)Can you explain your discoveries in any language other than
)Anthroposophy's, so that those of us who are lay interested, but
not
)initiates, can understand it?
The language I use is my own. At this time, I do not consider
myself an
anthroposphist. The only book written by Steiner I have fully read
is
"Agriculture". The other source of information about Steiner I
have
used is speaking with students and faculty at Sunbridge College.
)Science is equally hard work, and has a cadre of practitioners
who know
)more than I do. But I know their methods, not by being an
initiate
)(thoughI did study science). They can explain their methods and
their
)results to me in plain language. They can demonstrate (except at
the
)cutting edge, which I think will be demonstrable by science in
time) )their knowledge anduse it materially.
)...
)You won't, or can't, explain your experience. You say we have to
live
)ourown experience. This would be analogous to me having to do my
own
)scientific experiments. If you can't explain your experience in
plain
)language and demonstrate even the physical, much less the
"spiritual" )effects, why should I give you the time of day?
You are right that in this forum, I could not possibly explain to
you in
detail the thought processes which led me to my discovery. It
would
require hundreds of pages to fully explain, and it would take
considerable thought on my part to present what I have learned in
a
coherent manner that others could understand. Though I can give
you a
qualitative explanation of how I reached my conclusions. This is
not
unlike the qualitative explanations given to lay people to
understand
science. To deeply understand modern physics requires years and
years
of study. It is unlikely anyone will attain such an understanding
without giving up one's conception of the nature of things and
struggling with the new ideas. I should add that one of my pet
peeves
with Steiner is that he often does not provide a simple
qualitative
explanation to his ideas. This being so, I can understand your and
others frustration of trying get a qualitative understanding of
his
work.
Having said this, let me try to give an intuitive explanation of
my
experience. One analogy of spiritual discovery is that of crossing
a
river. One may ask what is the best way to cross. Some people
believe
that through prayer one can achieve this goal. Another approach is
to
get on a raft a cross the river. The latter more direct approach
is
suited to me. I can see that there is more that one raft and more
than
one crossing point, but they are all valid ways of crossing. Up to
this
point in time, my raft has been reflection on both self and
nature, not
anthroposophy. Through a deeper contemplation of the nature of
self and
what is not self, I have achieved a particular view of the
spiritual
nature of the universe. I should add that I do still have much to
learn
to deepen my understanding to try to achieve a more universal
view.
)Steiner may have promoted "useful knowledge" but all of it was
already
)known. I don't see that he added any new understanding of the
world.
I too am not know if spriritually there is anything completely
unique in
the body of thought Steiner left for us. I have found many
connections
is anthroposophy with things a already know. Perhaps as I study
Steiner's work, I will be able to give you a more definite answer.
Anthroposophy is not the only path (or raft?) for spiritual
understanding. What attracts me to Steiner is his ability to
achieve
practical worldly value from his ideas. Whether or not you agree
with
anthroposophy, Waldorf education continues to grow over 70 years
after
his death. His promotion of bio-dynamic agriculture came decades
before
the popularity of organic farming in the United States. My
interest in
education, agriculture, and understanding of the nature of things
has
led me to anthroposophy. Again, it is not the only path one may
take.
)Your admission that it IS a movement is certainly helpful in
refuting
)those people within its orbit who deny that it is a movement.
Semantics. I don't even know specifically what does and does not
qualify a movement. Looking it up in the cheap pocket dictionary I
have
in my office, the closest meaning I find is "a large-scale
organized
effort". I don't think that was exactly my meaning. In one sense
there
are central training institutes, resources and conferences, but I
have
seen a diversity of autonomy in educating the children stemming
from the
individual schools's teachers and parents.
I feel the word movement has lost some its original meaning as it
is
commonly used today. Certainly the labor movement would fit the
above
definition, but the environmental movement is a rather loosely
associated group of groups and individuals lacking the strength of
central organization of the labor movement. The "environmental"
meaning
of movement is closer to what I had in mind.
John Calkins
From ??? ??? Fri Aug 08 21:45:52 1997
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From: spike netshel.net
Subject: David Mitchell
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 07:44:50 -0700
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David Mitchell posted:
)Kathy posted parts of both e-mails. Good manners seems to be
lacking!
Sending insulting, unsolicited email with the statement at the top
that
they are private is well outside any definition of good manners. I
will not
_quietly_ accept insults from the Waldorf/Anthroposophical
community (or
any other community for that matter). I told you _clearly_ when I
responded
to your first email that I would post if you contacted me again.
I receive a great many emails from people, yes even other
Anthroposophists
on this list, that are polite and appropriate in tone. I do not
feel
compelled to share these. However, any inappropriate behavior
towards me at
the hands of Waldorf supporters will be posted as I see fit. I
made this
clear when Lefty Redux aka David Schlesinger chose to send me many
unsolicited email messages.
)Kathy's need to be in the spotlight as a victim seems to be
stronger then
)her sense of decency and propriety.
How have I been indecent or gone outside the bounds of propriety?
You
contacted me Mr. Mitchell and insulted me. I simply find your need
to send
me these emails a bit odd. This is a public forum. If you wish to
communicate with me using a derogatory approach, then do so here
where all
can read it. I don't even _know_ you. At least when others on this
list
have contacted me privately I have known who they are and have had
a common
relationship regarding subjects we may choose to discuss off the
list.
Her posting of my private comments,
)against my stated wishes, helps me to better understand the
futility of
)attempting to find any common ground of truth with her.
You are the second member of the Anthroposophical community that
has seen
it proper to send me insulting private emails and then claim that
I have
somehow invaded your privacy. This is indeed strange behavior.
Let's see now.
* I have Anthroposophists coming into my Union headquarters and
attending,
uninvited, a meeting scheduled for me, other teachers, our CTA
attorney,
and other _invited_ guests.
* I have an Anthroposophist questioning my former employer and
obtaining
private personnel information.
* I have two different Anthroposophists contacting me by email,
insulting
me, and then taking issue because I post parts of their
correspondence
_after_ I have stated I will do so.
* And, of course, I have the WE supporters from my former
workplace that
were educated at the Rudolf Steiner College, who choose to call me
a liar,
claim I am emotionally disturbed, follow me, and take pictures of
me.
Why? Because I criticize the Waldorf educational approach and its
illegal
inclusion in public education here in the United States. Why am I
perceived
as such a threat to you folks? I have never engaged in a single
act of
behavior that comes close to matching any of those listed above.
Kathy
From ??? ??? Fri Aug 08 21:46:14 1997
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: Science is religion???
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 09:40:23 -0700
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)It does. I was a Waldorf school teacher for only 12 years, during
which
)I saw many changes.
Stephen,
How close are you to a Steiner College? What kind of changes have
you seen
in 12 years? Do you consider your former school to be progressive?
Deby
From ??? ??? Fri Aug 08 21:46:20 1997
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: Kathy's employment problems
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 10:21:49 -0700
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)On the other hand, if PLANS misrepresented, or drew false
implications
)from, Kathy's true employment situation, this is relevant to the
integrity
)of Dan and Deby, and thus to the integrity of Waldorf critics in
general.
PLANS makes every attempt to ensure the accuracy of our press
releases,
etc. We are satisfied with the documentation that we saw. Kathleen
read and
approved the press release _before_ it was sent out to the media.
You are correct in holding PLANS accountable, Waldorf supporters
should be
held accountable as well.
Deby
From ??? ??? Fri Aug 08 21:46:26 1997
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: Natural and Supernatural
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 10:31:15 -0700
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)This note is in response to some of Kopp's comments.
)
))Can you explain your discoveries in any language other than
))Anthroposophy's, so that those of us who are lay interested, but
not
))initiates, can understand it?
)
)The language I use is my own. At this time, I do not consider
myself an
)anthroposphist. The only book written by Steiner I have fully
read is
)"Agriculture". The other source of information about Steiner I
have
)used is speaking with students and faculty at Sunbridge College.
)
I wish that you had the ability to remain on this list as you move
into
your training. You will be reading several books that would make
for good
discussions. Please do not check your critical thinking skills at
the door.
Deby
From ??? ??? Fri Aug 08 21:46:33 1997
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From: litvas icu.com
Subject: Re: Kathy's employment problems
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 97 13:49:10 -0400
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Steve Premo is talking about the level of dialogue:
)It threatens to turn this
)list into a haven for gossip and backbiting, rather than a forum
for the
)intelligent discussion of Waldorf education, its relation to
)Anthroposophy, and other interesting issues.
Sorry, Steve, but when has this list ever been a forum for the
intelligent discussion of waldorf education?
Robert Flannery
New York
litvas icu.com
From ??? ??? Fri Aug 08 21:47:19 1997
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From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Kathy's employment problems
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 20:00:11 +0100
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Steve Premo (premo cruzio.com) wrote:
)Kathy's employment situation is hardly relevant to this list.
[...]
)On the other hand, if PLANS misrepresented, or drew false
implications
)from, Kathy's true employment situation, this is relevant to the
integrity
)of Dan and Deby, and thus to the integrity of Waldorf critics in
general.
)
)Well, sorry, but I think that's all a bunch of bull.
Steve, whilst I agree that, taken on its own, Kathy Suttphen's job
offer
is outside the remit of this list, I disagree with your contention
that
PLANS's use of it to denigrate Waldorf education is outside that
remit.
The confidence which we can have in the utterances of PLANS is
*extremely* pertinent to this list. PLANS, which, I am sure I
don't need
to remind you, is the de facto owner of this mailing list, makes
frequent derogatory comments about Waldorf Education -- most are
untestable.
PLANS, IMO unwittingly, made a statement which, it later
transpired, was
testable. It is now being tested. The PLANS personnel and
supporters,
who frequently make such a hoo-ha about the value of scientific
method
to establishing facts, should be leaping at this opportunity to
demonstrate how sincerely they support the principle of testing
statements.
I am sure I am not the only reader who is beginning to draw his
own
conclusions from the evident lack of eagerness of PLANS personnel
to
ignore (in the case of the secretary) or attempt to sidestep (in
the
case of the president) the substance of the questions which are
being
asked.
--
Stephen Tonkin
From ??? ??? Fri Aug 08 21:47:13 1997
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From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Kathy's employment problems
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 20:02:42 +0100
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litvas icu.com wrote:
)Sorry, Steve, but when has this list ever been a forum for the
)intelligent discussion of waldorf education?
When Lee Story was on it.
--
Stephen Tonkin
From ??? ??? Fri Aug 08 21:47:27 1997
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From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: Re: Science is religion???
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 08:34:37 +1200
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))It does. I was a Waldorf school teacher for only 12 years,
during which
))I saw many changes.
)
)Stephen,
)How close are you to a Steiner College? What kind of changes have
you seen
)in 12 years? Do you consider your former school to be
progressive?
)Deby
KOPP says:
And were the changes in fundamental pedagogical or philosophical
matters,
or simple, day-to-day classroom life?
From ??? ??? Fri Aug 08 21:48:39 1997
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From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: Re: Contract Offer
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 09:21:17 +1200
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Robert Flannery quotes:
))KOPP says:
))
))Flannery cannot know the truth of the matter vis-a-vis Kathy,
PLANS, the
))school board, Rigby, etc. any better than any of the rest of us.
)
)Michael, you are quite correct.
)
))So for Flannery to refer to a "litany of misrepresentations"
(presumably
))including the events surrounding Kathy, which he has doubted
elsewhere) is
))a great leap of logic.
)
)That's your characterization. The best way to clear up the whole
issue
)is to get better information; i.e. from the sources, Dan Dugan
and Deby
)Snell.
)
)Since they do not seem to be eager to step forward, my sense of
doubt and
)mistrust will only grow.
KOPP says:
Deby and Kathy have explained very fully the entire press release
and the
background of the situation, including California teacher contract
practice
and the real meaning of the job Kathy was offered within that
context.
You seem to be ignoring that.
FLANNERY continues quoting KOPP:
))The matter is now sub-judice, and Kathy has been advised not to
say more in
))public. Neither should anyone else, until the legal issues are
determined.
And FLANNERY says:
)Kathy doesn't seem to have any problems stating her case on the
list,
)despite allusions to attorneys dancing in the wings.
)
)I know nothing about litigation, pending or otherwise. Michael,
as a
)champion of free speech, you must be aware of the chilling effect
of such
)assertions.
What "assertions" have I made that have a "chilling effect"? The
legal
process is well known. What part of it do you not understand?
FLANNERY:
)But you seem to disregard your own advice to abstain from comment
in your
)very next sentence:
))However, if people keep using information which apprarently
could have been
))gained only through unethical and perhaps even illegal means, I
will
))personally continue to attack that use of information and doubt
its
))validity. I will also continue to chastise the people who use it
so.
)
)What type of a qualifier is "apparently could have been"?
)
)Seems like a pretty tenous conclusion.
)
)If you wish to attack and chastise based on such fragile grounds,
I'm
)surprised. I was under the impression that you were a proponent
of
)working from sound evidence.
KOPP says:
"apparently" is journalistic-speak for an understanding of a
situation
based on the evidence at hand. I'm not there. I'm writing out of
what I
know of the situation. If I were there, I would ask the primary
sources
(state law, state education authorities, the school officials, and
the
principals (Kathy, Rigby and others) direct questions. I wish I
was there:
I think the media reporting I've seen quoted here so far is
pathetically
inadequate, biased, uninformed and poorly backgrounded.
"apparently could have been" means that it appears, from a general
understanding of common law in most places (America, Britain, New
Zealand),
that the knowledge of Kathy's affairs reported by Rigby could only
have
been gained by inappropriate means: release of that information by
a state
employee speaking to a person not entitled to share the
information,
contrary to the laws, customs, rules and ethics of the State of
California,
etc.
Again, what about this do you not understand? I am not drawing
conclusions,
I am saying what appears to be the case. That is a journalist's
job. If the
statement of the situation I have made is not correct, I would
presume that
some of the people involved would refute it.
To my recollection, I have not seen a post from Rigby explaining
how he
gained the information and how it could be legal and proper for
him to be
in possession of it. There is nothing fragile about my grounds,
and your
statement of surprise looks like a disingenuous attempt to use
innuendo to
discredit my comments.
FLANNERY continues quoting KOPP:
))As I said before, as a journalist, I try to verify all
information from two
))independent, preferably documentary sources. Have the people who
claim to
))know Kathy's intimite and private personal and personnel details
done that?
)
FLANNERY:
)We share the same concerns. What steps did you take, Dan and
Deby, to
)substantiate the claims you made in your press release?
KOPP says:
Deby and Kathy have rather fully answered these questions. Why are
you
beating a dead horse?
FLANNERY continues quoting KOPP:
))Have they considered the personal cost to Kathy of revealing the
))information to preserve their own position? Have they considered
the
))potential legal liability they are incurring?
)
FLANNERY:
)These are questions for Dan and Deby, too.
KOPP says:
Why? Dan and Deby's actions have apparently been approved by
Kathy, who has
not demurred from anything said. They have not used privileged
information
about anyone that they have not got the right to possess, as it
appears
other people have done in regard to Kathy.
What possible legal liability can Dan and Deby be incurring? They
have not
libelled anyone. They have not intruded into anyone's privacy.
They are not
making any allegations about the situation that citizens are not
entitled
to make about the apparent actions of their government (we are
talking
here, after all, about state schools, answerable to a citizenry).
PLANS appears to be an activist, watchdog group. It is,
unfortunately,
natural for defenders of a belief system to hit out at those who
criticise
it and its adherents and agents. Rigby appears to be one of those
people.
You appear to be another.
Your actions in continuing to beat limp drumheads is reminiscent
of those
people of whom it is sometimes said, "What part of `no' do you not
understand?"
From ??? ??? Fri Aug 08 21:48:14 1997
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From: John Calkins (calkins kodak.com)
Subject: Re: Natural and Supernatural
Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 17:38:24 -0400
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Dan, in response to my statement:
)Physical science is very useful for verifying the )physical
nature of the universe, but it does have its limitations. It )tends
to be reductionist in character, understanding nature by
)breaking things down into their constituent parts. The problem
with
)this method is that as we divide the world into smaller and
smaller
)parts, the complexity of understanding the whole from its myriad
of
)parts becomes overwhelming for even the most brilliant minds.
you said:
)No it doesn't. Even un-brilliant people switch their perspectives
)constantly between detail and holistic views. I suspect you are
being
)seduced by the Anthropsophical conceit that you are being
initiated
)into band of superior people who are able to see "a broader view"
)while ordinary mortals, yea, even professors, are lost in the
details.
I think you misunderstand my point. Of course there are a
multitude of
examples where rational science has changed the accepted view of
the
nature of physics. Let us take a simple phenomenon like the flow
of
water in a small section of a stream on a sunny day to illustrate
my
point. This seems like a simple enough event. What are the
elements
involved in this phenomenon? To name a few, they are air, water,
sand,
silt, rocks, the force of gravity, sunlight impinging on the
surface,
and the interaction between all of these elements. In a
macroscopic
sense, understanding this phenomenon is already quite complex.
First
the force of gravity pulls the incoming water down into the
section of
the stream. One must consider the turbulent flow of the water with
the
stream bed, the turbulence with the air and winds creating ripples
and
waves and causing evaporation. The sunlight is a broad spectrum of
wavelengths and interact with the complex waves, ripples and
bubbles in
both reflection and refraction. Of course the refractive index and
therefore reflectivity of the water changes as a function of
wavelength
and angle of incidence, and this interaction must be convoluted
over the
entire surface of the water. The sunlight causes evaporation, and
casts
shadows of rocks and suspended particles on the bottom. These are
all
macroscopic phenomenon and I could continue ad nauseam. We know
that
the water is a composed of two elements and three atoms, the atoms
are
composed of electrons, protons, and neutrons, and those subatomic
particles are composed of even smaller quarks. The rocks, air,
etc.
have their own constituent atoms and quarks. To understand in
detail
how this untold number of quarks, photons, etc. interact with each
other
to explain all the physics happening in the stream is beyond human
comprehension. The size of the calculation to simulate this
phenomenon
(if we could even formulate one) could not be performed with the
most
powerful computer we might ever develop.
I do resent your implication that my decision to become a Waldorf
teacher is based such a base motive. My primary motivation for
choosing
education as my path is to serve humanity. I view education as a
tremendous priveledge and responsibility whose effects whether
good or
bad are long lasting into future generations. If the teacher does
not
inspire the student to learn a subject, then it is likely that the
student's children and their children will be apathetic as well. I
know
of an instance where a violin student had a bad experience with
two
teachers. Now grown, she does not have an interest in music and
neither
do her children. This is a true tragedy.
John Calkins
From ??? ??? Fri Aug 08 21:47:34 1997
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From: John Calkins (calkins kodak.com)
Subject: Kathy's employment problems
Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 18:02:01 -0400
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Steve Premo:
)Sheesh. Let's get on with it, folks.
I concur. Thank you Steve.
John Calkins
From ??? ??? Fri Aug 08 21:48:52 1997
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From: JoAnn Schwartz (jms mich.com)
Subject: Re: Why WE denigrates public education;
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 19:23:59 -0400
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Michael Kopp wrote:
)Where is the evidence -- some sort of educational normative
yardstick
)acceptable to WE -- to prove that WE is so good?
)
)It seems to me that it's all anecdotal. Over my time on this list
I have
)never seen anything approaching a valid statistical study across
the
)spectrum of WE schools to indicate proof of the excellence that
WE
)supporters claim in the product (the graduates).
)
)The only evidence of this sort ever provided (in my memory) was
one
)instance where Stephen Tonkin reported that some WE graduates had
done well
)in state schools after transferring, and that state school staff
had told
)him anecdotally how well prepared they thought the WE students
were.
)
)I would challenge the WE advocates on this list to front up with
some sort
)of statistical evidence to back up their claims, before they
demand that
)public school advocates do so.
JoAnn replies:
Michael, I have yet to see any scientific or statistical studies
that show that WE produces graduates who are academically or
otherwise
inferior to those produced by public education, or indeed, to any
other
system of education you care to name.
All the evidence provided by the critics to date has been
anecdotal
in nature. That is, in my time on this list, I have never seen
anything
approaching a valid statistical study (of any sort, never mind
across
the entire spectrum of WE schools) to indicate proof of the
critics'
contention of the inferiority of the product (the graduates).
In the anecdotal evidence column (pro-WE), I can add two items.
One, a parent I know whose child will begin attending kindergarten
at the
Detroit Waldorf School next year asked teachers at the Grosse
Pointe North
and Grosse Pointe South High Schools their opinion of DWS
graduates.
She told me that the opinions of faculty members were uniformly
positive. (GPN & GPS are widely regarded as two of the finest
public
high schools in metro Detroit, and she expects her child to attend
one of
them for high school, as DWS does not have a high school.)
Two, Detroit Waldorf School graduates are routinely accepted into
the
metro area's finest public and private high schools, including
Detroit's
Cass Tech and Renaissance High (public schools which admit
students by
examination only) and (in the private sector) University-Liggett,
Cranbrook, and University of Detroit High (this last is run by the
Jesuits -- not a group known for their fuzzy thinking. Three DWS
graduates who went on to ninth grade at U of D High last year all
made
the Dean's List for each marking period.)
For the record, I attended public school from K-12 and have no
real
complaints about my education. I also recognize that public
education has
changed in many ways since my attendence therein, most notably in
the
tendency to push down academic work into kindergarten and
preschool. From my
readings in many sorts of educational theory (not just Waldorf,
and as an
interested lay person, not as an education professional) I believe
this is a
grave mistake. I do not, however, recall ever giving my friends
whose
children attend public schools a hard time about their choice. (I
am,
however, endlessly willing to discuss why it is not my choice, if
they
should ask. (grin))
Warmly,
JoAnn Schwartz, Detroit Waldorf School parent
(jms mich.com) Detroit, Michigan USA
From ??? ??? Fri Aug 08 21:49:14 1997
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Not in front of the kids, please
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:42:01 -0700
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I live rurally, about 6 minutes from town. The morning after
SCUSD's board
meeting (Aug.4, 1997), my youngest son, Max and I were heading to
town. I
pulled out of my driveway behind a blue, early 80's Toyota sedan.
The car
did not seem familiar and Max and I were engaged in conversation.
The driver of the car began holding his fist up in a victory
gesture. Max
questioned me about what he was doing. I told Max that maybe the
driver was
not fully present in his mind. He adjusted his rear view mirror
and began
making a "for shame" gesture with his hands. His middle finger
came up a
few times. (Yes, he was still driving!!) He rolled down his window
and
began making victory gestures with his fist and shaming gestures
out the
drivers side window. Luckily for all of us, he did not look back.
He then
held up 5 fingers, then 2 fingers. It came to me that he was not
simply
delusional, he was communicating with me. I remembered SCUSD's
vote
regarding Waldorf was 5 for and 2 against. Suddenly his victory
gesture,
his shame on you gesture, his middle finger gesture made complete
sense. I
rolled down my window and gave him the peace sign. (After all,
this is
America. We have a right to debate issues.)
This person continued this activity until we arrived downtown
where our
paths separated. Max wrote down his license number, partially
because he
collects license plates, and partially because he stopped thinking
this
person was funny and grew concerned about what else he may do.
This was terribly rude behavior. I drive a Toyota Previa van. The
windshield is very big. It had to have been crystal clear to this
person
that a young child was sitting in the front passenger seat. If
this person
is a lurker on this list, I want to ask you to refrain from this
type of
behavior in front of my child. He found it frightening. I used it
a
learning experience by pointing out how dangerous it was to drive
down the
road while behaving in that manner. I do not talk about Waldorf
with my
children. They have friends who attend the Waldorf school. I agree
with
Steiner on this aspect. Children should not be exposed to adult
concerns.
Thank you for your co-operation.
Deby
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 10 01:32:09 1997
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From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Science is religion???
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 05:03:28 +0100
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TONKIN
)))It does. I was a Waldorf school teacher for only 12 years,
during which
)))I saw many changes.
))
SNELL
))How close are you to a Steiner College?
80 miles (about 3 hours by car since it's going E-W across the
south of
England)
)What kind of changes have you seen
))in 12 years?
See below.
) Do you consider your former school to be progressive?
I consider Waldorf education to be generally progressive, although
I
obviously note some conservative traits.
KOPP
)And were the changes in fundamental pedagogical or philosophical
matters,
)or simple, day-to-day classroom life?
Both. The use of electronic calculators in older classes would, I
think,
be an example which covers both.
--
Stephen Tonkin
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 10 01:32:32 1997
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: Why WE denigrates public education;
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 23:45:29 -0700
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)Michael, I have yet to see any scientific or statistical studies
)that show that WE produces graduates who are academically or
otherwise
)inferior to those produced by public education, or indeed, to any
other
)system of education you care to name.
)
)All the evidence provided by the critics to date has been
anecdotal
)in nature. That is, in my time on this list, I have never seen
anything
)approaching a valid statistical study (of any sort, never mind
across
)the entire spectrum of WE schools) to indicate proof of the
critics'
)contention of the inferiority of the product (the graduates).
Are you saying, _prove_ WE is an inferior education? I can hardly
go in
peace to the grocery store these days. I'm not so sure who of us
critics
could convince Waldorf schools to co-operate in obtaining this
kind of
study. The Charter process will be interesting, though. The school
boards
will be looking for performance standards in order to make a
decision to
renew the WE charters, good for only five years. Charter schools
have been
given more flexibility in exchange for more accountability. A few
Waldorf
charter schools have ended their third year. The tax paying public
is
waiting to see what kind of an investment charters have been. My
son
currently attends a charter school, but CA teaching credentials
have _not_
been written out of the charter. Performance has been monitored
all along.
California is not even close to the top in national performance
standards,
I know. Our small county ranks # 2 in the state for academic test
scores.
Early academics is not for every child. Thankfully, our public
school
districts acknowledge that. We live in a beautiful area where many
people
hope to move. Our county school's Superintendent told me that we
have 300
credentialed substitute teachers. That means that school districts
can
choose from the cream to fill our classrooms.
Deby
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 10 01:33:09 1997
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From: litvas icu.com
Subject: Re: Contract Offer
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 97 07:53:45 -0400
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I actually think Steve Premo's characterization of what I've been
engaging in lately is pretty much on the money (see "Kathy's
Employment
Problems" of 8 Aug).
However, I can't resist this last blast from Michael Kopp:
)KOPP says:
)
)Deby and Kathy have explained very fully the entire press release
and the
)background of the situation, including California teacher
contract practice
)and the real meaning of the job Kathy was offered within that
context.
)
)You seem to be ignoring that.
And later in the same message, a similar conclusion:
)KOPP says:
)
)Deby and Kathy have rather fully answered these questions. Why
are you
)beating a dead horse?
Well, Michael, once again you're right. The whole issue is getting
very
tired.
But I have one nagging question, and since you seem to be quite
up-to-date on the business of Deby and Kathy, perhaps you can help
me
reconcile these two quotes posted to the list within the last
month:
)Rigby has concentrated on the "desk job" allegation made by
PLANS. I have
)not made this allegation.
(Kathy Sutphen, 7/9)
)Kathleen read and approved the press release _before_ it was sent
out to
)the media.
(Deby Snell, 8/8)
When I referred to a "litany of misrepresentations" a day or two
ago, I
was referring to contradictions such as this. Not all of them are
so
obvious--most involve simple differences in perception, which are
then
exaggerated by emotional reactions.
The "litany" part of it comes into play when such
misrepresentations or
misstatements or lies are then picked up by the congregants and
amplified.
Robert Flannery
New York
litvas icu.com
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 10 01:36:37 1997
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From: James Souttar (ancient urizen.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Not in front of the kids, please
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 97 20:40:27 +0100
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Deby:
)I live rurally, about 6 minutes from town. The morning after
SCUSD's
)board meeting (Aug.4, 1997), my youngest son, Max and I were
heading
)to town. I pulled out of my driveway behind a blue, early 80's
)Toyota sedan. The car did not seem familiar and Max and I were
)engaged in conversation...
I agree that this is rude and disturbing behaviour - and whilst
probably not criminal, there's also a safety aspect about making
finger signals while one is driving.
Remember, though, that Steiner in his secret, initiatory 'Occult
Nonsense of the Highest Order' absolutely insists that
Anthroposophists, whilst engaged on their sinister quest to take
over
the world, suspend their social skills and engage in petty
vindictiveness with their rivals.
I'm sorry about the experience. It sounds like your reaction was
reasonable and sane. But what are you really saying? That this is
what Anthroposophists are like? Or is it better interpreted as a
single individual acting in a very human, if totally out-of-order
fashion?
James
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 10 01:36:50 1997
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From: spike netshel.net
Subject: Leaving town.
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 14:12:34 -0700
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List Members,
I am going to be out of town for approximately a week and will not
have
access to a computer. As Deby mentioned, my mother is ill and,
unfortunately, lives a distance from me.
In regard to the situation with my employment. I agree with Steve
Premo and
John Calkins - we've had enough of it in terms of the need to
prove or
disprove my situation. Accept it or don't. I will not address it
any
further in regard to providing some "proof," or even discussing
PLANS'
behavior. Michael Kopp has addressed this well, ie: they are a
watchdog
group.
I addressed this subject, once again, as a result of the thread on
the
reaction of WE supporters to dissonance. My experience is that
dissonance
to Waldorf inclusion in the public sector is not tolerated.
Dissonants
(myself) are removed and discredited. Rigby's behavior and that of
my
former employer during the course of this thread substantiates my
claim.
Obviously, the behavior on the part of both is unprofessional and
unethical.
And, in response to someone's question, ie: Was I a full-time
Independent
Study teacher during previous school years? No I was not.
Kathy
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 10 01:36:57 1997
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From: spike netshel.net
Subject: Sac City funds Waldorf
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 14:12:39 -0700
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List Members,
Sacramento City School Board voted, on 8/4/97, to continue funding
of
Waldorf inclusion within the district. This despite its
unsuccessful
inclusion at Oak Ridge Elementary School. The Board voted to
provide
$401,000 for moving and site improvement costs, approximately
$150,000 for
additional transportation costs, and $40,000 to install a
playground. (I am
not sure these figures are entirely accurate, but they are very
close.)
Bascially they will spend .5 million dollars in the near future in
order to
continue their relationship with Rudolf Steiner College, an
unaccredited
sectarian institution.
This comes directly on the heels of Sac City Unified's
unsuccessful
campaign to have Measure U passed. This would have provided
issuance of
bonds in the value of many millions of dollars (I do not have the
exact
figures at this moment) in order to repair their existing
facilities. The
ad campaign was strenuous. The television ad I recall most clearly
showed
what appeared to be a hispanic child standing next to a
disgustingly filthy
and broken drinking fountain. There was much talk in the newspaper
of
leaking and collapsing roofs and other allegedly unsafe conditions
that Sac
City Unified did not have the funds to address. Oak Ridge
specifically
maintained that their computers were in storage due to electrical
problems.
Obviously there is a very large discrepancy here. In June Sac City
Unified
could not repair drinking fountains. In August they can kick out
.5 million
dollars to continue Waldorf inclusion, even though they do not
have
guaranteed enrollment.
My questions at this point in time: Is public inclusion of Waldorf
at this
time more than simple Yuppie fascination with the New Age
approach? Why
does Sacramento hold onto it as such great cost and vociferous
parent
protest? Sac City Unified School District just completed an
unsuccessful
political campaign in an effort to pass a bond measure. Their
claim: they
are near broke and cannot maintain their public school facilities.
But
somehow they are able to allocate .5 million dollars to place
Waldorf at a
new site, _and_ they do not have guaranteed enrollment. Where's
the payoff?
The Rudolf Steiner College (an unaccredited institution that uses
noncredentialed and (some) "teachers" lacking a higher education
to teach
their pedagogy to public school teachers) is receiving hundreds of
thousands of dollars in public funds. How can this possibly be
justified
and why does the funding continue _even_ when parents forced it
out of the
original school site?
Unfortunately, the Sacramento Bee does not have a journalist
interested in
truly investigating this matter. I am grateful that PLANS is
committed to
their cause and will do what they can with limited funds. I
welcome the day
this matter goes to court.
Kathy
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 10 01:37:37 1997
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From: Stephen Tonkin (sft aegis1.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Contract Offer
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 23:46:32 +0100
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spike netshel.net wrote:
)And, in response to someone's question, ie: Was I a full-time
Independent
)Study teacher during previous school years? No I was not.
That wasn't quite the question I asked, was it?
The questions asked were:
)The claim in the PLANS "press release" was one of a job change.
Does
)this contract differ from your contract for the 1996/7 school
year and,
)if so, how?
)
)Had you taught Independent Study during the 1996/7 school year?
I, for one, find the introduction of the term "full time" to be
interesting. If I was a cynic I might even have suggested that it
was
introduced to enable a denial to be made.
I am sure that, when Ms Sutphen returns, she will wish to clear
the
record by answering the questions that were actually asked, rather
than
the one she wished had been asked.
On the matter of letting this issue drop, as requested by Steve
Premo, I
am prepared to do that once the direct questions that have already
been
asked of PLANS and Ms Sutphen have been given clear, direct,
unambiguous
answers which also reconcile the two quotes Robert recently
posted. I am
sure PLANS and Ms Sutphen would agree that it is in their
interests to
do this since, until they have done so, the suspicion will remain
that
the reason for their avoidance and obfuscation is that they have
something to hide.
--
Stephen Tonkin
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 10 01:37:14 1997
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: Not in front of the kids, please
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 16:25:54 -0700
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James writes,
)I'm sorry about the experience. It sounds like your reaction was
)reasonable and sane. But what are you really saying? That this is
)what Anthroposophists are like? Or is it better interpreted as a
)single individual acting in a very human, if totally out-of-order
)fashion?
Clearly an individual, James. If my suspicions are correct, this
person
lurks on this list. I primarily wanted to ask this person to
refrain from
this type of acting out in front of my children in the future.
Children
should _not_ be involved in this issue. I feel strongly that
issues such as
this not be discussed in front of them. Adult should have
restraint when
children are present.
Deby
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 10 01:38:08 1997
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: RSF loans money to Waldorf charter school
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 19:18:00 -0700
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Rudolf Steiner Foundation's Quarterly News reports under Borrowing
Account
Activity:
"The School is organized under the charter school program of the
State of
Michigan. Work will begin in the fall with a kindergarten program,
as well
as grades 9 and 10, totalling 116 students. In the 98/99 school
year, the
addition of grades 11 and 12 is planned. The curriculum is similar
to that
of many Waldorf programs but, in addition, focuses on vocational
training
in a wide variety of activities, such as furniture making and
cabinetry,
metalworking, gardening, and the home arts. Students in the School
will
come from the Detroit metropolitan area. This project has grown
out of 10
years of work and research by teacher Bart Eddy, administrator
Candyce
Sweda, and Camphill pioneer Janet McGavin and many others. Bart
and Candyce
will be joined by eight teachers who bring broad experience, as
well as
interdisciplinary and cultural diversity.
The Foundation approved a credit line of $200,000 to prefinance
expenses of
the School until funding is received from the state of Michigan.
In
addition, the School has received grants from other sources to
assist with
research and development."
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 10 23:45:22 1997
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Message-Id: (199708102004.NAA03944 lists1.best.com)
From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Re: Hitler and materialism (was: Intuition & Science)
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 22:04:33 +0200
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At 08:43 PM 5/8/97 +0100, James wrote:
)Herman:
)
))Of the 'Gottgläubige' (believer in God; *his* God, of
course)
))Hitler, indeed! Hitler, who kept believing in, and talking
about,
))divine providence! Among the first organizations which Hitler
banned
))already in 1933, were all freethinker and atheist organizations.
At
))the universities, the nazis sought to replace 'materialist'
'Jewish'
))science with 'idealist' 'German' science.
)
)The same Hitler, I think, who had Dietrich Bohoeffer
It is Bonhoeffer, not Bohoeffer
)hanged - and the
)'confessing' Lutheran church
Unfortunately, a minority in that church. The then highest ranking
Lutheran
bishop, Müller, was a nazi party member.
)driven into persecution.
Not only you think that. So do I. But what does this really prove
about the
point of materialism? Tyrants with one God on their side have
always
persecuted other people with other Gods. Hitler was much more
deathly than
the other tyrants. On the belts of Hitler's army were the words
'Gott mit
uns'- With God on our side. I would not insult Bonhoeffer by
saying it was
the same God.
)What flavour of
)God exactly did he worship?
A Wagnerian occult Aryosophist one, I would say. Is the film "Mr
Hitler's
religion" by Petrus van der Let, about this question, available in
the US?
)He certainly seems to have liquidated
)followers of most of the mainstream religions (Jews, Catholic
Poles,
)Orthodox Russians, German Lutherans... etc.).
Certainly. And also many non-religious Jews, Poles, Russians, and
Germans
(He also had killed even some dissident German Aryosophists). He
killed them
for their 'race' or as political opponents, or as homosexuals etc.
etc. Not
because of their faith in itself. (All Jehovah's Witnesses were
persecuted;
for objection to military conscription).
)
)But even if you are questioning whether National Socialism was
really
)esotericism that only sounded like materialism,
It was rather esotericism that sounded like politics.
)you're surely not
)disputing that Stalin's purges and Mao's 'Great Leap Forward' and
)'Cultural Revolution' were rooted in pure, unadulterated
)'materialist' philosophies?
I would dispute 'pure, unadulterated'. James wrote:
)In China, the 'great leap forward' involved the belief
)that the sheer force of Marxist Lenninist
Leninist; not Lenninist
)ideology could cause
)impossible bumper crops and accelerated growth of plants
Which, of course, is closer to 'pure, unadulterated' *idealism*,
than to
'pure, unadulterated' materialism.
But I do not have time to discuss all off-topic points on this
list. I would
not have brought up the question of Hitler, religion, and
materialism
myself. I reacted.
regards,
Herman
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 10 23:46:49 1997
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From: JoAnn Schwartz (jms mich.com)
Subject: Re: Why WE denigrates public education;
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 20:31:09 -0400
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JoAnn wrote:
))[snip] in my time on this list, I have never seen anything
))approaching a valid statistical study (of any sort, never mind
across
))the entire spectrum of WE schools) to indicate proof of the
critics'
))contention of the inferiority of the product (the graduates).
To which Deby replied:
)Are you saying, _prove_ WE is an inferior education?
JoAnn replies:
Not exactly, although if you know of such studies, I'd be
interested. I was
merely pointing out that sauce for the goose might also be sauce
for the
gander. Both WE advocates and critics are in the same boat on this
one, I
think, because the studies are not being done.
Deby continues:
)[snip] The Charter process will be interesting, though. The
school boards
)will be looking for performance standards in order to make a
decision to
)renew the WE charters, good for only five years. Charter schools
have been
)given more flexibility in exchange for more accountability. A few
Waldorf
)charter schools have ended their third year. The tax paying
public is
)waiting to see what kind of an investment charters have been. My
son
)currently attends a charter school, but CA teaching credentials
have _not_
)been written out of the charter. Performance has been monitored
all along.
JoAnn replies:
This may indeed be a kind of test, but I would argue that results
after 5
years are only interim results. More interesting results may be
found after
a school takes a class or two through the entire eight year
elementary
school curiculum.
At any rate, as I have mentioned here before, each state may have
different
standards for public vs. private school teachers. In Michigan, I
believe all
teachers, whether public or private, need teacher certification
(with the
possible exception of special teachers such a music or handcrafts
teacher).
Once again, I would urge concerned parents to ask what the
policy/situation
is in their school, because (disclaimer) your milage may vary
(/disclaimer).
Warmly,
JoAnn Schwartz, Detroit Waldorf School parent
(jms mich.com) Detroit, Michigan USA
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 10 23:47:25 1997
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: Why WE denigrates public education;
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 18:17:10 -0700
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JoAnne writes,
) Both WE advocates and critics are in the same boat on this one,
I
)think, because the studies are not being done.
Do you feel that studies should be done? Why do you (or anyone..)
feel the
WE movement resists studies? Do you believe that testamonials are
enough?
Deby
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 14 21:59:11 1997
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From: levy (P.R.Levy bton.ac.uk)
Subject: Re: Why WE denigrates public education; and science
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 09:16:19 +0100 (BST)
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Dan Dugan asks:
"How do you know Waldorf schools achieve "high" results? Are you
aware of
any study comparing their outcomes with private schools of similar
economic
class?"
Every year Walford schools in the UK are subject to independent
inspection
by Her majesty's Inspectorate (HMI). There are countless reports
available
publicly of these visits by independent experts who point to the
comparable standards and results of WE with other types of school
(public
and private).
Paul Levy
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 14 22:02:51 1997
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From: Steve Premo (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Why WE denigrates public education; and science
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 08:20:13 +0000
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On 11 Aug 97 , levy wrote:
) Dan Dugan asks:
)
) "How do you know Waldorf schools achieve "high" results?
)
) Every year Walford schools in the UK are subject to independent
inspection
) by Her majesty's Inspectorate (HMI). There are countless reports
available
) publicly of these visits by independent experts who point to the
) comparable standards and results of WE with other types of
school (public
) and private).
Great! Can you share some results with us, e.g., how Waldorf
schools
compare, on average, to, say, Montessori schools and other types
of
schools?
Steve Premo ------ Santa Cruz, California
--
"It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from
falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the
government from falling into error." -- Justice Robert H. Jackson
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
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From: levy (P.R.Levy bton.ac.uk)
Subject: Re: Science is religion???
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 09:24:55 +0100 (BST)
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You may term it as "religion". In the same way we might say that
anything
that does not fit into the definition of a banana must also be
religion.
Science and religion are not opposites. But, hold on for a second:
testing a hypothesis - yes, it is possible with "spiritual
science"
collecting qunatified data - also possible (through repeated
self-observation and then triangulation with other observers)
comparing data - also possible, though difficult
The main problem will always be a source of diagreement. Critics
claim
that any spiritual experience (though repeatable and testable)
must be
religious because the critic hasn't had such an experience for
him\her
self and has not been able to because he\she hasn't bothered to
systematically test out the path laid out. SO here's the
apparently
logical conclusion:
Someone who claims repeated spiritual experience must be having a
religious experience - I conclude this based on the
"scientific"premise
that I do not ned to test out the path that led to the result.
Great.
On Wed, 6 Aug 1997 spike netshel.net wrote:
) Levy posted:
) Studying a subject, making a hypothesis, conducting a series of
controlled
) experiments to test the hypothesis, collecting quantified data
from these
) experiments, analyzing and comparing the data, and then drawing
conclusions
) based on this data is science. This is not religion.
)
) This type of scenarios cannot be accomplished within the realm
of
) "spiritual science." Therefore, I term it to be religion and
religious
) belief, ie: "spiritual science" is an oxymoron.
)
) Kathy
)
)
)
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 14 21:59:17 1997
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From: levy (P.R.Levy bton.ac.uk)
Subject: Re: Testing Steiner's Path
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 09:30:36 +0100 (BST)
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Dan
I'm sorry if you take this the wrong way, but, according to your
reply
below I must say I am shocked that you emerge on thisd list as a
religious
leader!
Paul
On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Dan Dugan wrote:
) Paul Levy, you said,
)
) )The problem with the following comments about "science" is
that, by their
) )own logic, they are necessarily religious statements as well.
As such, you
) )are using statements of faith to masquerade as fact.
) (snip)
)
) The "truths" of religion (doctrines) are pronounced by
charismatic leaders,
) and guarded unchanged by a succession of priests or initiates.
)
) The "truths" of science (theories) are held tentatively, and the
more
) important the theory is that is overthrown, the higher honor
goes to the
) overthrower.
)
) These represent two fundamentally different epistemologies, not
two
) religions. The Waldorf/Anthroposophy vs critics philosophy war
turns on
) epistemology. How is reliable knowledge obtained?
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
)
)
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 14 22:03:05 1997
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From: Steve Premo (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Natural and Supernatural
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 09:00:49 +0000
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On 11 Aug 97 , John Calkins wrote:
) Einstein theorized his ideas on time and space many years before
they
) were fully verified experimentally. In other words he developed
his
) theories to a nearly complete extent in his imagination
_without_ the
) aid of the scientific method.
Well, he did use a lot of math. It wasn't *just* in his head. But
that
being said, I don't think anyone disputes the importance of
imagination
and creativity in developing new hypotheses. That is part of the
scientific process. Of course, if the hypotheses are wholly
untestable,
by any conceivable objective method, they have little scientific
value.
(In some cases, of course, the testing of the hypothesis must
await the
development of new instrumentation or methodology, but it should
be at
least potentially testable.)
Steve Premo ------ Santa Cruz, California
--
"It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from
falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the
government from falling into error." -- Justice Robert H. Jackson
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 14 22:00:34 1997
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From: James Souttar (ancient urizen.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Hitler and materialism (was: Intuition & Science)
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 97 11:44:15 +0100
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Me:
)What flavour of God exactly did he worship?
Herman:
)A Wagnerian occult Aryosophist one, I would say. Is the film "Mr
)Hitler's religion" by Petrus van der Let, about this question,
)available in the US?
You so desperately want to say 'Anthroposophist', don't you? But
unfortunately *all* the historical evidence points in the opposite
direction - to Steiner and Anthroposophy being among the people
and
subjects Hitler and the Nazis deplored and persecuted.
It must be so frustrating to be a historian, and not to be able to
shoe-horn your own pet theories into the historical record. Still,
you can try and engineer it by stealth - by suggesting that Hitler
sponsored 'German Science' (although not Goethean Science) and
calling him an Aryosophist (which at least *sounds* like
Anthroposophist).
James
By the way, crabby pedantry of the order of 'It is Bonhoeffer, not
Bohoeffer' and 'Leninist; not Lenninist' (both obviously typos)
hardly reflects well on the scholarly vocation.
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 14 22:00:41 1997
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From: James Souttar (ancient urizen.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Not in front of the kids, please
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 97 11:50:14 +0100
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Deby:
)Clearly an individual, James. If my suspicions are correct, this
)person lurks on this list. I primarily wanted to ask this person
to
)refrain from this type of acting out in front of my children in
the
)future.
Hopefully he's suitably chastised by a universal show of
disapproval.
)Children should _not_ be involved in this issue. I feel strongly
)that issues such as this not be discussed in front of them. Adult
)should have restraint when children are present.
Absolutely. Harassing them and their parents on their way to
school
is totally unacceptable - whether it is a confrontation in a car
(as
in your case) or by picketing the school gate...
James
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 14 22:00:19 1997
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From: "Peter Schwab" (pschwab access.ch)
Subject: The final word on Rudolf Steiner and OTO
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 12:27:14 +0100
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Dear friends and fellow critics,
all of you who still believe that Rudolf Steiner had connections
to,
or was a member of the OTO (Hello, Mijnherr de Tollenaere!) should
have a close look at the document at
http://www.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/steiner.htm
intitled:
Theodor Reuss and Rudolf Steiner
by Peter-R. Koenig
[...] "There is no evidence that Rudolf Steiner ever accepted
anything from Theodor Reuss with the sole exception of Reuss's
permission to use the term "Misraim". There exists no evidence nor
any documentation which made Steiner a member of the Ordo Templi
Orientis." [...]
I believe nobody will put in doubt the expertise of Peter-R.
Koenig
regarding the OTO organisation!
Anthroposophers: 1 Critics: 0
Have a nice day, Peter-R. Koenig just made mine!
+Peter+
---------------------------------------
Peter Schwab
pschwab access.ch
rte du Vanel 33, CH-2206 Les Geneveys-sur-Coffrane, Switzerland
Voice: (++41) 032 / 857.16.72
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From: JoAnn Schwartz (jms mich.com)
Subject: Re: Why WE denigrates public education;
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 11:06:35 -0400 (EDT)
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) JoAnn writes,
)
) ) Both WE advocates and critics are in the same boat on this
one, I
) )think, because the studies are not being done.
)
Deby replies:
) Do you feel that studies should be done? Why do you (or
anyone..) feel the
) WE movement resists studies? Do you believe that testamonials
are enough?
JoAnn replies:
I do not think the "WE movement resists studies", I think it is
below the
radar screen of most educational researchers. Even though metro
Detroit
has 3 established Waldorf schools (K-8) and one well established
kindergarten, as well as a teacher training program that has been
affiliated with a local private university (U of D-Mercy) for a
long time,
there are still folks I know in the Wayne State University
education
department who do not know very much about WE and how it differs
from
other educational methods such as Montessori. To them it is just
"that
program over at U of D".
I would have no objection to studies being done, but I would
prefer that
they be long-term studies, or studies across a wide spectrum of
grade
levels and subjects. They should also take into account the WE
developmental model. I would not put much credence in studies that
showed
(purely hypothetical example) that Waldorf kindergarteners had
lower
reading test scores than public kindergarteners. I would pay more
attention to studies that claimed WE sixth graders (or eighth
graders) had
lower reading test scores than comparable public school sixth or
eighth
graders.
Warmly,
JoAnn Schwartz, Detroit Waldorf School parent
(jms mich.com) Detroit MI USA
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 14 22:02:44 1997
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From: John Calkins (calkins kodak.com)
Subject: Re: Natural and Supernatural
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 11:45:13 -0400
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I recalled an interesting fact over the weekend that I think is
relevant
to our discussion.
Einstein theorized his ideas on time and space many years before
they
were fully verified experimentally. In other words he developed
his
theories to a nearly complete extent in his imagination _without_
the
aid of the scientific method.
Again I am not saying that the scientific method does not have its
importance. It was used to verify his ideas decades after they
were
first proposed. Look what he was able to accomplish without the
use of
the scientific method of verification.
This example further illustrates the fundemental importance of
imagination and creativity over the scientific procedures.
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 14 22:03:48 1997
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From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Re: The final word on Rudolf Steiner and OTO
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 18:28:57 +0200
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At 12:27 PM 11/8/97 +0100, Peter Schwab (by the ways,
congratulations with
your apparent recovery! I wish you good health) wrote:
'The final word on Rudolf Steiner and OTO'. [There very rarely is
a final
word on any question in history, as the Dutch historian Pieter
Geyl pointed
out. Some other historian may find the one document which the
diligent
researcher missed in another archive, etc. etc.]
)all of you who still believe
I merely quoted people like the scholar Dan Merkur (Gnosis), to
point out
that the Schwarzbuch Anthroposophie was not the only book saying
this (on
membership). Nothing less and nothing more. So, neither belief nor
disbelief.
)that Rudolf Steiner had connections to,
Koenig certainly does not disprove that; on the contrary. Read
Koenig's
*full* document, on Mystica Aeterna etc.; not only Schwab's brief
quote.
)or was a member of the OTO (Hello, Mijnherr
Mijnherr is neither Dutch nor German
de Tollenaere!) should
)have a close look at the document at
)
)http://www.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/steiner.htm
)
)intitled:
)
)Theodor Reuss and Rudolf Steiner
)
) by Peter-R. Koenig
I already did last week. The quote out of context in Peter
Schwab's e-mail
puts things in Koenig's paper as a whole, too simplistically by
far.
("There is no evidence that Rudolf Steiner ever accepted
(anything from Theodor Reuss with the sole exception of Reuss's
(permission to use the term "Misraim".
As is evident from Koenig's full paper: not just as a
run-of-the-mill
member, but as an official.
For people wondering about the word Misraim in Peter's e-mail: it
was first
used in 'Freemasonry' by the eighteenth century charlatan
Cagliostro.
Cagliostro's fringe Freemasonry has never been recognized by
mainstream
Masonry. In the early twentieth century, the German leader of the
Ordo
Templi Orientis (OTO), Reuss, used it.
regards,
Herman
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From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Re: Aryosophy (was: Hitler and materialism)
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 22:00:16 +0200
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At 11:44 AM 11/8/97 +0100, James wrote:
))What flavour of God exactly did he [Hitler] worship?
)
)Herman:
)
))A Wagnerian occult Aryosophist one, I would say. Is the film "Mr
))Hitler's religion" by Petrus van der Let, about this question,
))available in the US?
)
)You so desperately want to say 'Anthroposophist', don't you?
????? Obviously, James has not heard the word 'Aryosophist'
before. James
could have saved himself from a bad temper here, *if* he would
have read the
relevant literature by professional historians. For instance,
Nicholas
Goodrick-Clarke's Ph. D thesis: The occult roots of nazism. It
uses the
words Aryosophy and Aryosophist on almost every page. Both words
start with
A and end with 'sophist'; that does not make them identical (maybe
some
occult 'science of sounds' thinks of words which sound very
similarly, that
the contents are then also very similar).
The link to Anthroposophy of Aryosophy is that both, in the early
twentieth
century, were influenced by Madame Blavatsky's Theosophy (the
leading
Aryosophist Jörg Lanz von Liebenfels also claimed to base
himself on
Steiner. Dan Dugan has quoted Lanz' magazine Ostara on this before
on this
list; probably before James joined).
)But
)unfortunately *all* the historical evidence
Some time ago on this list, Stephen Tonkin took Dan Dugan to task
for saying
"the South African Anthroposophists", while, according to Tonkin,
there were
dissidents. According to Tonkin, 'the' always means 100%; not 51%,
not 55%,
not 99%, not 99,9%, not 99,99999%. I would say that saying '*all*
the
historical evidence', with emphasis stars** around the 'all' is a
lot
stronger than just saying 'the' historical evidence. Just one tiny
bit of
evidence pointing in the 'opposite' way would destroy James'
claim. There
are lots of 'opposite' evidence to nazism being 'materialist' (I
thought you
had already conceded that point to Dan Dugan, James?) instead, of,
rather,
being 'occult'; not only in Goodrick-Clarke's books, but also in
his
articles, in James Webb's work's, in George Mosse's; in the works
of the
1930s philosopher Ernst Bloch; etc.
)points in the opposite
Opposite to *what*? Do you mean that Hitler was not Aryosophist
(in the
broad sense; not in the narrow sense of a devotee of Lanz von
Liebenfels
during all his life, not just in the 1900s when Hitler lived in
Vienna)?
)direction - to Steiner and Anthroposophy being among the people
and
)subjects Hitler and the Nazis deplored and persecuted.
They deplored and persecuted very various people and subjects;
including,
ironically, Lanz von Liebenfels, who in 1933, two years before the
ban of
the German Anthroposophical Society, had to flee to Switzerland.
Persecution
is not necessarily an argument in itself for being without
problems: Hitler
had SA commander Ernst Röhm put to death in 1934; that would
also have
happened to Himmler and Göring in 1945, if Hitler would not
by then have
been isolated in the Berlin bunker. Hitler banned the fascist
Black Front of
Otto Strasser, etc. (Before anyone gets angry: this, of course,
does not
mean equating the Anthroposophical Society with these people).
Are there still Aryosophists today? Yes. In Germany, Die Armanen
and Die
Gylfiliten; in The Netherlands, the Cirkel van Licht (Circle of
Light), led
by a self styled priest of the Germanic god Odin. By the way, I am
glad that
I am able to help the Amsterdam historian Jan Willem de Groot with
his Ph. D
thesis on Aryosophy (his M.A. thesis was on the same subject-in
Dutch). It
will be out in a few years' time.
regards,
Herman
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From: John Calkins (calkins kodak.com)
Subject: Re: Why WE denigrates public education;
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 16:03:23 -0400
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All this talk of studies is irrelevant unless someone is willing
to fund
a project. I doubt that neither the supporters nor critics would
be
willing to commit the resources necessary to perform a meaningful
study.
John Calkins
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 14 22:07:02 1997
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: Why WE denigrates public education;
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 13:29:05 -0700
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)All this talk of studies is irrelevant unless someone is willing
to fund
)a project. I doubt that neither the supporters nor critics would
be
)willing to commit the resources necessary to perform a meaningful
study.
)
)John Calkins
John,
Do you believe that no studies exist to back up WE proponents
claims solely
because of funding?
Deby
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Message-Id: (199708112133.OAA00146 lists1.best.com)
From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: Re: Natural and Supernatural
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 09:25:09 +1200
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John Calkins wants us to believe in fairies:
)I recalled an interesting fact over the weekend that I think is
relevant
)to our discussion.
)
)Einstein theorized his ideas on time and space many years before
they
)were fully verified experimentally. In other words he developed
his
)theories to a nearly complete extent in his imagination _without_
the
)aid of the scientific method.
)
)Again I am not saying that the scientific method does not have
its
)importance. It was used to verify his ideas decades after they
were
)first proposed. Look what he was able to accomplish without the
use of
)the scientific method of verification.
)
)This example further illustrates the fundemental importance of
)imagination and creativity over the scientific procedures.
KOPP says:
This is a complete distortion of what the scientific method (and
imagination) consists of. You cannot turn a scientist of the
calibre of
Einstein into a superstitious mystic by the wooly use of words.
As Steve Premo mentioned, Einstein used mathematics to describe
his
invention of the two theories of relativity. His hypotheses were
framed
mathematically and prooved mathematically.
Mathematics is every bit as real a tool of the materialistic
scientific
method as are cyclotrons and test tubes.
In fact, the verification of Einstein's theories came not from
physical
testing of his hypotheses in some terrestrial machine, but in the
biggest
laboratory of all -- the cosmos -- where observations of starlight
showed
that it obeyed Einsteins mathematics (it was bent and slowed by
huge
gravitational fields).
Later verification came in terrestrial experiments with machines.
Now it appears that the scientific method is moving on towards a
better
understanding of time and space than even Einstein's theories
provided.
That's the way it works, and I'm sure Einstein would be pleased
with it.
To say that Einstein _imagined_ his theories is to denigrate the
human
brain's thinking powers. Einstein worked out his theories by the
scientific
tool of mathematics -- not by imagination.
Whatever role his "imagination" played in helping him create his
ideas in
the first place was minor in comparison to the role of rational
mathematical logic in answering the fundamental questions about
the
Universe's physical laws.
It was Einstein's choice of that rational, scientific tool that
enabled him
to do the work and provide the answers -- not his imagination, nor
some
supernatural appeal to superstition.
I have been reading Mr Calkins' posts with some dismay that no-one
is
challenging what appears to me to be very faulty reasoning and the
use of
words to mean whatever Mr Calkins wishes them to mean. I find his
lack of
precision frightening in one who has had a career as a scientist.
Has he forsaken science because of the personal disappointment he
has
alluded to here, and instead embraced superstition? It seems like
it, from
what he has been saying about both science and Steiner/Waldorf/
Anthroposophy.
His posts exhibit already the wooly thinking and meaningless
exposition of
spiritualistic claims that are common from people who have decided
that the
ordinary world's existence and tools are not enough for them, and
that they
need a religion or other spiritual guide.
People are welcome to choose whatever path they wish, and I hope
that Mr
Calkins finds the enlightenment he's seeking. I don't think it's
there, but
if he finds it, perhaps, as a former scientist, he can explain it
in
scientific terms (as Einstein did) to those of us who have
rejected
superstition in favour of reason.
I would like that. Until then I reject the use of superstition in
the
teaching of my children, and I say it has no place in public
education.
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 14 22:12:22 1997
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From: John Calkins (calkins kodak.com)
Subject: Re: Why WE denigrates public education;
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 07:38:25 -0400
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Deby
)John,
)Do you believe that no studies exist to back up WE proponents
claims
)solely because of funding?
I do not know if this is the case or not. Considering how tight
the
budgets of most Waldorf schools are in this country, I suspect
that
funding such a study would be low on any list of expenditures.
Does
PLANS have the resourses to formulate, fund, and conduct a study
we can
all agree on as relevant?
John Calkins
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 14 22:13:40 1997
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From: John Calkins (calkins kodak.com)
Subject: Re: Natural and Supernatural
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 10:55:59 -0400
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)KOPP says:
)This is a complete distortion of what the scientific method (and
)imagination) consists of. You cannot turn a scientist of the
calibre
)of Einstein into a superstitious mystic by the wooly use of
words.
)As Steve Premo mentioned, Einstein used mathematics to describe
his
)invention of the two theories of relativity. His hypotheses were
)framed mathematically and prooved mathematically.
)Mathematics is every bit as real a tool of the materialistic
)scientific method as are cyclotrons and test tubes.
I disagree. Your last statment is correct; however I would
maintain
that mathematic's realm is in the imagination of the mind, though
its
usefulness extends into the physical universe. Mathematics is a
tool by
which many of the laws of the universe can be very closely
approximated. At the same time pure mathematics is an intellectual
world that exists apart from the real universe. This world exists
entirely in the minds and imaginations of mathemeticians.
Mathematics
based on a particualar set of axioms is able to closely model the
materialistic universe as we understand it; however, historically
new
mathematics are developed to better approximate the nature of
phenomena
as our observation techniques improve. These new developments in
math
are pure thought exercises via the creativity and imagination of
the
human mind. Granted, observation of physical nature often provides
the
intuition for the new maths, but it still requires the creativity
of the
human mind to make that link.
)Has he forsaken science because of the personal disappointment he
has
)alluded to here, and instead embraced superstition? It seems like
it,
)from what he has been saying about both science and
Steiner/Waldorf/
)Anthroposophy.
Mr Kopp, if you would carefully read my postings, then you would
not
misinterpret the meaning of what I say. I have tried to be quite
clear. I have not "forsaken science", as you suggest. I have
stated
multiple times that I agree with the generally accepted
conclusions and
methods of physical science. The materialistic view of things is
by and
large self-consistent. I also said that although I enjoy many
aspects
of my work (those being the science and my relations with
colleagues),
the aspect of my work that repels me is the exploitation and
mechanization of the corporate world.
)His posts exhibit already the wooly thinking and meaningless
)exposition of spiritualistic claims that are common from people
who
)have decided that the ordinary world's existence and tools are
not
)enough for them, and that they need a religion or other spiritual
)guide.
I agree with part of what you say. The materialistic view and
tools are
not sufficient for me to understand the world. On the other hand,
you
have a right to have the opinion that all spiritual claims are
meaningless, but it is only your opinion and not necessarily the
absolute truth. I have not seen any proof for this position, and
there
is plenty of evidence on both sides to make this a subject of
worthy
debate. I think it is true that the great majority of the world
believes in a deity or some other form of spirituality despite the
widely accepted revelations of material science.
Can you back up your statements with facts rather than opinions
Mr.
Kopp? To the best of my ability, I have writtten about what I have
come
to understand based on my own real experiences, and I try not to
make
conclusions about things I do not understand.
)People are welcome to choose whatever path they wish, and I hope
that
)Mr Calkins finds the enlightenment he's seeking. I don't think
it's
)there, but if he finds it, perhaps, as a former scientist, he can
)explain it in scientific terms (as Einstein did) to those of us
)who have rejected superstition in favour of reason.
I appreciate your support on my new endeavor. I should point out
that
although I will no longer be employed as a professional scientist,
I
will not lose the scientific understanding of the physical world.
I do
not think we have any fundemental disagreement on physical
science. We
differ on our views of the spiritual nature of things. If you
reject
all claims of spirituality up front, then I cannot see a way of
having a
meaningful discussion on the subject. I do not anticipate having a
physical scientific proof of the existence of spiritual nature.
The
only way I know to see the spiritual nature of things is through
reflection on self and nature.
If Mr. Kopp or anyone else has any ideas as to how we can make
progress
on this debate given Mr. Kopp's assumption, I am quite open to
suggestion.
John Calkins
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 14 22:13:16 1997
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From: John Calkins (calkins kodak.com)
Subject: Re: Natural and Supernatural
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 11:09:26 -0400
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Steve Premo:
)Well, he did use a lot of math. It wasn't *just* in his head. But
)that being said, I don't think anyone disputes the importance of
)imagination and creativity in developing new hypotheses. That is
)part of the scientific process. Of course, if the hypotheses
)are wholly untestable, by any conceivable objective method, they
have
)little scientific value. (In some cases, of course, the testing
of
)the hypothesis must await the development of new instrumentation
or
)methodology, but it should be at least potentially testable.)
I completely agree with Steve's comments. We are nearly eye-to-eye
with
respect to our views of the understanding of physical nature.
John Calkins
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From: "Peter Schwab" (pschwab access.ch)
Subject: Re: The final word on Rudolf Steiner and OTO
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:30:37 +0100
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On 11 Aug 97 at 18:28, Herman de Tollenaere wrote:
) At 12:27 PM 11/8/97 +0100, Peter Schwab (by the ways,
congratulations with
) your apparent recovery! I wish you good health) wrote:
Thank you all or your good wishes! Indeed, last friday I got rid
of
all that hardware in my left hand. Now it is still a bit stiff,
but
it seems typeing is good for reeducation...
) 'The final word on Rudolf Steiner and OTO'. [There very rarely
is a final
) word on any question in history, as the Dutch historian Pieter
Geyl pointed
) out. Some other historian may find the one document which the
diligent
) researcher missed in another archive, etc. etc.]
It was not me who coint the term "final" in this context, but
Koenig
himself: "... to finally put the matter to rest."
)
) )all of you who still believe
)
) I merely quoted people like the scholar Dan Merkur (Gnosis), to
point out
) that the Schwarzbuch Anthroposophie was not the only book saying
this (on
) membership). Nothing less and nothing more. So, neither belief
nor disbelief.
)
) )that Rudolf Steiner had connections to,
)
) Koenig certainly does not disprove that; on the contrary. Read
Koenig's
) *full* document, on Mystica Aeterna etc.; not only Schwab's
brief quote.
)
This is what I supplied the URL for! Alas, the only other
"connections" I can find are on 15 August 1906 when Steiner
distances
himself from Reuss and later on when he refuses to answer Reuss'
numerous letters.
Calling Reuss' failed attempts to recruit Steiner as "connections"
is
very far fetched! I think the today's equivalent to Reuss attempts
would be something like E-mail bombing!
I like Koenig's conclusion on this: "In conclusion, whatever
edicts,
charters and papers Reuss send to Steiner, Reuss also could have
made
the Pope a member of the OTO. As long as there is no documentation
providing evidence that Steiner accepted any alleged OTO
membership,
no one can pretend that Steiner was an OTO member."
) )or was a member of the OTO (Hello, Mijnherr
)
) Mijnherr is neither Dutch nor German
Sorry, my Brussel's days are long gone! Just curious, what is the
correct spelling of "Monsieur" in flamish?
)
) I already did last week. The quote out of context in Peter
Schwab's e-mail
) puts things in Koenig's paper as a whole, too simplistically by
far.
An overall conclusion "out of context"?
) ("There is no evidence that Rudolf Steiner ever accepted
) (anything from Theodor Reuss with the sole exception of Reuss's
) (permission to use the term "Misraim".
)
) As is evident from Koenig's full paper: not just as a
run-of-the-mill
) member, but as an official.
) For people wondering about the word Misraim in Peter's e-mail:
it was first
) used in 'Freemasonry' by the eighteenth century charlatan
Cagliostro.
) Cagliostro's fringe Freemasonry has never been recognized by
mainstream
) Masonry. In the early twentieth century, the German leader of
the Ordo
) Templi Orientis (OTO), Reuss, used it.
The fact that Steiner did buy the right to use the word "Misraim"
from Reuss was never contested. But, and here is the beef,
Steiner's
"Misraim Dienst" has nothing to to with the OTO organisation
and/or
it's "sexmagical" practices!
To put it short: Steiner paid for the non exclusive use of a
trademark, not for the product! Steiner himself stopped using the
term "Misraim Dienst" in 1914. He had probably noticed in what a
bad
company he was with this.
As for Mrs. Alice Sprengel, I think her testimony that she saw an
OTO
membership application written by Steiner has even less value than
a
three Dollar bill!
But truth and beauty is in the eye of the beholder ....
Best wishes
+Peter+
---------------------------------------
Peter Schwab
pschwab access.ch
rte du Vanel 33, CH-2206 Les Geneveys-sur-Coffrane, Switzerland
Voice: (++41) 032 / 857.16.72
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 14 22:15:07 1997
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From: RigbyL aol.com
Subject: Re: Natural and Supernatural
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 15:24:47 -0400 (EDT)
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In a message dated 97-08-12 03:34:09 EDT, Michael Kopp wrote:
(( Mathematics is every bit as real a tool of the materialistic
scientific
method as are cyclotrons and test tubes.
))
Once you get beyond counting on your fingers, it's also pure
imagination.
Anybody ever seen, heard, felt, tasted, etc. the ratio between the
diameter
and circumference of the locus of points in a plane all
equidistant from a
given point (also known as a circle), to take one simple example?
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: Natural and Supernatural
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 17:34:20 -0700
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)Steve Premo writes,
[snip] Of course, if the hypotheses
))are wholly untestable, by any conceivable objective method, they
have
))little scientific value. (In some cases, of course, the testing
of
))the hypothesis must await the development of new instrumentation
or
))methodology, but it should be at least potentially testable.)
)
John Calkins agrees,
)I completely agree with Steve's comments. We are nearly
eye-to-eye with
)respect to our views of the understanding of physical nature.
)
So John, what do _you_ think of the term "spiritual science"? I've
always
felt it was an oxymoron. Clearly people disagree with me.
Deby
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 14 22:24:25 1997
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Admin.
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 17:50:50 -0700
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PLANS web site has had 6064 hits from 8/12/96 to 8/12/97. The web
counter
is one year old today!
Deby
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From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: Re: Natural and Supernatural
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 12:54:07 +1200
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Rigby quotes Kopp on maths as a materialist scientific tool:
)In a message dated 97-08-12 03:34:09 EDT, Michael Kopp wrote:
)
)(( Mathematics is every bit as real a tool of the materialistic
scientific
) method as are cyclotrons and test tubes.
) ))
)
And RIGBY says:
)Once you get beyond counting on your fingers,
KOPP says:
Silly me -- I though that all the various historical counting
methods
taught in Steiner school classes (wanna see my kids' main lesson
books?)
that relied on physical numbers of objects that went well beyond
10 were
some indication that even Anthroposophists recognised that numbers
are a
real-world, material thing.
(Theoretically an infinite number of objects, equal to the number
of things
being counted.)
RIGBY:
)it's also pure imagination.
KOPP says:
No moreso than it is to say that everything we experience is in
our
imagination (which of course is a favourite of wooly new-age
woofters,
though I can remember talking about it over beers in Mensa
meetings when I
was at university, and perhaps even earlier than that with my
teenaged sci
fi buddies).
) Anybody ever seen, heard, felt, tasted, etc. the ratio between
the diameter
)and circumference of the locus of points in a plane all
equidistant from a
)given point (also known as a circle), to take one simple example?
Sure. A piece of string does it nicely. Get an unstretchable piece
of
string that is very precisely marked with a scale that represents
equal
units, and you can do it as precisely as mathematics does it.
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 14 22:30:27 1997
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From: Steve Premo (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Three points
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 09:27:09 +0000
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On 13 Aug 97 , John Calkins wrote:
) I only have a week left on this list.
I wish it were not so. I hope you can rejoin us soon.
) Secondly, there has been disagreement as to whether
anthroposophy is or
) is not a religion. At Sunbridge College, I have met
self-proclaimed
) Christians, Jews, and Buddhists that largely accept
anthroposophy but
) maintain there respective religious faiths. If anthroposophy is
a
) religion, how is it possible for all these individuals to
subscribe to
) two religions simultaneously?
It seems to me that it's a matter of definition. Anthroposophy
does not
have worship services (although, again, some may define "worship
service"
sufficiently broadly to encompass some anthroposophical
practices). But
is that a necessary attribute of religion? Do Buddhists have
worship
services?
Certainly, many of the beliefs of anthroposophy, such as a belief
in the
existence of various types of spiritual beings, a detailed
description of
the workings of reincarnation and karma, etc., are basically
religious
beliefs.
I see no reason why one may not subscribe to two religions
simultaneously,
as long as one of the religions is sufficiently vague that one can
call
oneself a member of that religion, while pretty much believing
whatever
one wishes. This seems to be the case with Christianity, Judaism,
and
Buddhism.
Many Christians would say that one is not a Christian unless one
believes
that (a) we are all sinners; (b) we will all spend eternity in
hell
unless we accept Christ as our savior; and (c) those who accept
Christ
will spend eternity in heaven. It seems to me that these are the
basic,
fundamental beliefs of Christianity (even though they don't really
reflect
the teachings of Jesus). It would be difficult to hold these
Christian
beliefs and, at the same time, believe in Steiner's version of
reincarnation. But there are many people who call themselves
Christians
and reject those basic Christian beliefs.
) And lastly, I made the point that it is universally accepted
among
) people of conscience that it is wrong to maliciously lie. . . .
I hope
) we would all agree that the second approach is immoral. Somehow
deep
) inside us we accept such moral truths as not lying, not killing,
etc. I
) consider these to be among the very basic spiritual truths. What
are
) your ideas in regard to this?
It is not necessary, in my view, to believe in a spiritual realm,
inhabited by God and/or supernatural beings, to accept basic
morality.
There are certain values that have such great utility to a society
that
those cultures who do not hold such values tend to decline. For
example,
the usefulness of communication is considerably diminished if
lying is
socially acceptable. Those cultures in which communication is most
effective have a competitive advantage over cultures in which
communication is unreliable.
This is not to say that there is no spiritual component to
morality.
Personally, I think that there is. But it is not necessary to
posit a
spiritual world in order to explain the universality of some moral
or
ethical concepts.
I do not believe that a lack of empirical evidence for
spirituality means
that spirituality is all in one's imagination. It seems to me
that consciousness and self-awareness are more than just a
function of how
the brain processes information. But who knows, maybe a purely
mechanistic explanation will someday be discovered.
If, as quantum physics theorizes, the observation of a quantum
object
physically fixes that object's characteristics, as well as the
characteristics of its companion in the case of a paired object,
this
implies to me that consciousness has some primary role in the
nature of
reality, and is not merely a product of our nervous system.
Steve Premo ------ Santa Cruz, California
--
"It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from
falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the
government from falling into error." -- Justice Robert H. Jackson
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
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From: James Souttar (ancient urizen.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Aryosophy (was: Hitler and materialism)
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 97 12:17:14 +0100
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Herman:
)You so desperately want to say 'Anthroposophist', don't you?
)????? Obviously, James has not heard the word 'Aryosophist'
before.
)James could have saved himself from a bad temper here, *if* he
would
)have read the relevant literature by professional historians. For
)instance, Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke's Ph. D thesis: The occult
roots
)of nazism. It uses the words Aryosophy and Aryosophist on almost
)every page. Both words start with A and end with 'sophist'; that
)does not make them identical (maybe some occult 'science of
sounds'
)thinks of words which sound very similarly, that the contents are
)then also very similar).
You *may* be an eminent scholar, but you completely missed my
point.
Which was that you clearly seem to have a personal agenda to
associate Steiner and Anthroposophy to some of the darker
manifestations of twentieth century human thought - and are quite
prepared to do this by less than scholarly means (since it appears
to
defy *real* historical substatiation). Using an obscure neologism
from the murky mists of Nazi ouija-dabbling - which does, as you
rightly point out, sound uncannily like 'Anthroposophy' - appears
to
be just another example of such pseudo-historical smear mongering.
The fact that 'professional historians' have little better to do
with
their time than study occultist movements - and that their subject
has degenerated to such parochialism - is really of no interest to
me. It's a problem I think you ought to face for yourselves.
James
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 14 22:28:29 1997
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From: James Souttar (ancient urizen.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Aryosophy (was: Hitler and materialism)
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 97 12:24:12 +0100
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Me:
)You so desperately want to say 'Anthroposophist', don't you?
Herman:
)????? Obviously, James has not heard the word 'Aryosophist'
before.
)James could have saved himself from a bad temper here, *if* he
would
)have read the relevant literature by professional historians. For
)instance, Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke's Ph. D thesis: The occult
roots
)of nazism. It uses the words Aryosophy and Aryosophist on almost
)every page. Both words start with A and end with 'sophist'; that
)does not make them identical (maybe some occult 'science of
sounds'
)thinks of words which sound very similarly, that the contents are
)then also very similar).
You *may* be an eminent scholar, but you completely missed my
point.
Which was that you clearly seem to have a personal agenda to
associate Steiner and Anthroposophy to some of the darker
manifestations of twentieth century human thought - and are quite
prepared to do this by less than scholarly means (since it appears
to
defy *real* historical substatiation). Using an obscure neologism
from the murky mists of Nazi ouija-dabbling - which does, as you
rightly point out, sound uncannily like 'Anthroposophy' - appears
to
be just another example of such pseudo-historical smear mongering.
The fact that 'professional historians' have little better to do
with
their time than study long-defunct early twentieth century
occultist
movements - and that their subject has degenerated to such
parochialism - is really of no interest to me. It's a problem I
think
you ought to face for yourselves.
James
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 14 22:28:14 1997
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From: John Calkins (calkins kodak.com)
Subject: Re: Natural and Supernatural
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 08:11:46 -0400
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Deby inquires,
)So John, what do _you_ think of the term "spiritual science"?
I've
)always felt it was an oxymoron. Clearly people disagree with me.
Not having studied anthroposophy extensively, I will not pretend
to know
what Steiner means by "spiritual science" with all its
implications.
What I can do is relate my own experiences and thoughts that, to
me,
seem similar to what Steiner may have had in mind. I hope you
don't
consider this too much of a cop out, but I simply have no basis to
make
an informed judgment of Steiner's teaching in this regard.
I do not believe that the concept of spiritual science is
physically
verifiable as physical science to a great extent clearly is. If
one
considers the human mind to be an "instrument" for observing
spiritual
nature (just as the human eyes and other sense organs observe
physical
nature), it does not seem beyond the realm of possibility to
observe
spiritual nature in an objective scientific sense. As others have
pointed out, the fact that there is so much commonality in
spritual
beliefs across religous, geographic, and cultural boundaries gives
evidence of the universality of spiritual truths.
At first physical views and spiritual views may seem to be in
conflict.
Then upon deeper understanding these conflicts can be resolved.
This is
not only true in comparing a physical view to a spiritual view,
but it
can also be true for two seemingly conflicting physical views (or
two
spiritual views). Quite often in my work as a scientist, I come
across
two sets of data that seem to be contradictory. Generally this
conflict
arises from a lack of fundemental understanding of the interaction
of
the object under study with the two measurement techniques. After
thinking more deeply about the nature of the object (which may or
may
not include additional experiments), the conflict is often
resolved.
I believe that differences in spiritual views can be resolved in
an
analogous manner to discover a more fundemental truth.
John Calkins
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 14 22:29:29 1997
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From: James Souttar (ancient urizen.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Natural and Supernatural
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 97 13:18:01 +0100
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Michael:
)Silly me -- I though that all the various historical counting
)methods taught in Steiner school classes (wanna see my kids' main
)lesson books?) that relied on physical numbers of objects that
went
)well beyond 10 were some indication that even Anthroposophists
)recognised that numbers are a real-world, material thing.
Actually, mathematics is defined (OED) as the *abstract* science
of
space, number and quantity. Counting is an aspect of mensuration,
which is a completely different kettle of fish.
Mathematics doesn't happen in nature. There's no evidence that any
natural phenomena compute complex equations in order to determine
their properties and behaviour. Rather, mathematics is a human
conceit - a way of accounting for phenomena with reference to a
purely abstract, intellectual model. It's a clever trick, of
course.
[It's also fair to assert, as Benjamin Lee Whorf does, that
mathematics is a linguistic phenomenon.] But it's a mistake to
suggest we live in a mathematical universe. Mathematics *exists*
only
in the human brain - and in those artefacts we've created to
extend
its mathematical powers.
Mathematics also only takes account of *quantities*. But number,
certainly in Anthroposophic thinking - as in many other
'spiritual'
traditions - is also endowed with qualities. And the 'qualities'
of
number *are* apparent in nature. As an example, the 'quality' of
twoness is polarity. One sees this mirrored in biological
phenomena
as a fundamental principle (gender, bilateral symmetry etc.) - but
it
is not a 'mathematical' principle.
James
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 14 22:28:42 1997
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From: John Calkins (calkins kodak.com)
Subject: Three points
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 09:01:02 -0400
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If you all can forgive me for being so bold, but I only have a
week left
on this list. There are some issues that I have brought up that I
would
like to know what ideas and opinions both Waldorf supporters and
critics
have concerning them.
The first is the three blind men and the elephant analogy for
understanding the apparent disagreements between the spiritual and
physical views of nature. Mr. Kopp said:
)I personally do not see a means of reconciling spirituality and
)science in a single mind.
Subsequently I put outlined the process through which I was able
to
reconcile my personal spiritual and physical views of nature so
that I
do not find conflict between the two. Does this mean the subject
is
closed? I don't think so.
Secondly, there has been disagreement as to whether anthroposophy
is or
is not a religion. At Sunbridge College, I have met
self-proclaimed
Christians, Jews, and Buddhists that largely accept anthroposophy
but
maintain there respective religious faiths. If anthroposophy is a
religion, how is it possible for all these individuals to
subscribe to
two religions simultaneously?
And lastly, I made the point that it is universally accepted among
people of conscience that it is wrong to malicously lie. Though I
have
never seen a physical proof of this, we all accept the truth of
this
statement. Another more Machiavellian but logically valid approach
to
lying would to tell the truth almost all the time to maintain
credibility, and then lie on those rare occasions when one has
something
to gain from the lie. I hope we would all agree that the second
approach is immoral. Somehow deep inside us we accept such moral
truths
as not lying, not killing, etc. I consider these to be among the
very
basic spritual truths. What are your ideas in regard to this?
John Calkins
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 14 22:31:42 1997
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From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Re: The final word on Rudolf Steiner and OTO
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 21:59:32 +0200
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At 04:30 PM 12/8/97 +0100, Peter Schwab wrote:
)On 11 Aug 97 at 18:28, Herman de Tollenaere wrote:
)
)) At 12:27 PM 11/8/97 +0100, Peter Schwab (by the way,
congratulations with
)) your apparent recovery! I wish you good health) wrote:
)
)Thank you all or your good wishes! Indeed, last friday I got rid
of
)all that hardware in my left hand. Now it is still a bit stiff,
I hope that will improve as well!
)but
)it seems typeing is good for reeducation...
)) )that Rudolf Steiner had connections to, [OTO and its leader
Reuss]
))
)) Koenig certainly does not disprove that; on the contrary. Read
Koenig's
)) *full* document, on Mystica Aeterna etc.; not only Schwab's
brief quote.
))
)
)This is what I supplied the URL for! Alas, the only other
)"connections" I can find are on 15 August 1906 when Steiner
distances
)himself from Reuss and later on when he refuses to answer Reuss'
)numerous letters.
How about 1904-1906? And about Mystica Aeterna in at least one
case going on
till 1921?
)) Hello, Mijnherr
))
)) Mijnherr is neither Dutch nor German
)
)Sorry, my Brussel's days are long gone! Just curious, what is the
)correct spelling of "Monsieur" in flamish?
The correct spelling in English of flamish is Flemish. And Flemish
is really
Dutch (unless you mean specifically the dialects of the provinces
of East
and West Flanders). Monsieur=Mijnheer in the official spelling. To
make
things easy for foreigners, it is often spelt 'Meneer'.
)) ("There is no evidence that Rudolf Steiner ever accepted
)) (anything from Theodor Reuss with the sole exception of Reuss's
)) (permission to use the term "Misraim".
))
)) As is evident from Koenig's full paper: not just as a
run-of-the-mill
)) member, but as an official.
)) For people wondering about the word Misraim in Peter's e-mail:
it was first
)) used in 'Freemasonry' by the eighteenth century charlatan
Cagliostro.
)) Cagliostro's fringe Freemasonry has never been recognized by
mainstream
)) Masonry. In the early twentieth century, the German leader of
the Ordo
)) Templi Orientis (OTO), Reuss, used it.
)
)The fact that Steiner did buy the right to use the word "Misraim"
)from Reuss was never contested.
)
)To put it short: Steiner paid for the non exclusive use of a
)trademark,
Would you not say: 'a useless trademark?' Would you say that
Steiner was fooled?
)not for the product! Steiner himself stopped using the
)term "Misraim Dienst" in 1914. He had probably noticed in what a
bad
)company he was with this.
Best wishes
Herman
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 14 22:32:36 1997
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From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Re: Aryosophy and Peter Koenig (was: Hitler and
materialism)
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 21:59:37 +0200
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At 12:24 PM 13/8/97 +0100, James wrote:
))You so desperately want to say 'Anthroposophist', don't you?
)
)Herman:
)
))????? Obviously, James has not heard the word 'Aryosophist'
before.
)
))James could have saved himself from a bad temper here, *if* he
would
)
))have read the relevant literature by professional historians.
For
)
))instance, Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke's Ph. D thesis: The occult
roots
)
))of nazism. It uses the words Aryosophy and Aryosophist on almost
)
))every page. Both words start with A and end with 'sophist'; that
)
))does not make them identical (maybe some occult 'science of
sounds'
)
))thinks of words which sound very similarly, that the contents
are
)
))then also very similar).
James:
)You *may* be an eminent scholar, but you completely missed my
point.
I do not think so. You thought that I used a self-coined word,
'Aryosophist', for religious beliefs in the political extreme
Right in
German-speaking countries; you thought that I made this
'self-coined' word
sound like 'Anthroposophist' to offend you. In fact,'Aryosophy' is
not a
word coined by me at all. Early twentieth century Germans and
Austrians used
it to describe their beliefs themselves. Today, historians use it
widely for
this tendency.
)Which was that you clearly seem to have a personal agenda to
)
)associate Steiner and Anthroposophy to some of the darker
)
)manifestations of twentieth century human thought-
*I* do not associate them. I think that Waldorf schools in our
times, if
they have classes on Racial Ethnography, teaching children that
'black
race=0-7 years old; white race=adulthood' 'associate'
*themselves*.
) and are quite
)
)prepared to do this by less than scholarly means (since it
appears
Not all appearance is reality.
)to
)defy *real* historical substatiation).
What do you mean exactly with *real* historical substantiation? Do
you say
that Drs Jan Willem de Groot or Dr Goodrick-Clarke or Dr Helmut
Zander, or,
indeed, Anthroposophists like the editors of Flensburger Hefte
review,
including Wolfgang Schad, whom I discussed before on this list,
are 'less
scholarly', because they document racial theories which did, and
unfortunately, in many cases still do, exist in Anthroposophy? Are
these
authors not '*real* historical substatiation' for not using the
famous
'Akasha chronicle' (=imagination) as their source (the Akasha
chronicle,
according to Steiner, is more real than what professional
historians do)?
)Using an obscure neologism
It is *not* a neologism, of course. Neither is it 'obscure' to
historians.
)The fact that 'professional historians' have little better to do
with
)
)their time than study long-defunct
I wish you were right about 'long-defunct'. Didn't you read the
end of my
earlier e-mail? I will repeat it:
Are there still Aryosophists today? Yes. In Germany, Die Armanen
and Die
Gylfiliten; in The Netherlands, the Cirkel van Licht (Circle of
Light), led
by a self styled priest of the Germanic god Odin.
I add now: this Dutch priest plans to expand to the US. I hope he
will not
succeed.
)early twentieth century occultist
)movements - and that their subject has degenerated to such
)parochialism - is really of no interest to me. It's a problem I
think
)you ought to face for yourselves.
If Peter Schwab reads this, he may pass it on to Peter Koenig.
Peter Koenig,
a specialist in early twentieth century occultism, will not agree
with this
remark, I think. As George Mosse and many others have pointed out,
looking
at at least some of the historical roots of Nazi ideology, which
influenced
history so much, is certainly not parochialism. Neither is
studying Gandhi,
which I also do; one can hardly study Gandhi without bringing in
his rival
for Indian National Congress leadership, Mrs Annie Besant, a
leader of
'early twentieth century occultist movements.' In Indonesian
history, the
first president of the Republic ... etc. Would James call
historians
studying the eighteenth century, the Middle Ages, or ancient
Egypt, all of
them even more 'long-defunct', even more 'parochialist' then? I
would not.
regards,
Herman
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 14 22:32:52 1997
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From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Re: Three points
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 22:35:21 +0200
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At 09:01 AM 13/8/97 -0400, John Calkins wrote:
)If you all can forgive me for being so bold, but I only have a
week left
)on this list.
I hope that you can stay on the Internet somehow; or return soon.
)There are some issues that I have brought up that I would
)like to know what ideas and opinions both Waldorf supporters and
critics
)have concerning them.
)Secondly, there has been disagreement as to whether anthroposophy
is or
)is not a religion. At Sunbridge College, I have met
self-proclaimed
)Christians, Jews, and Buddhists that largely accept anthroposophy
but
)maintain there respective religious faiths. If anthroposophy is a
)religion, how is it possible for all these individuals to
subscribe to
)two religions simultaneously?
The overwhelming majority of Buddhists does not have any problem
with
subscribing to
two religions simultaneously. Yet, we call Buddhism a religion.
Scientology calls itself a religion. Officially, it does not have
any
problem with subscribing to
two religions simultaneously (Personally, I think there might be
problems if
someone contributed lots of money to the 'other' religion; money,
which then
could not go to Scientology).
The Liberal Catholic Church; and Theosophy, do not have any
problem with
subscribing to
two religions simultaneously (Theosophists sometimes said that
people can
have any `exoteric' religion (like Anglicanism, Hinduism etc.)
they want, if
only their 'esoteric' religion is Theosophy). Etc.
regards,
Herman de Tollenaere
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 14 22:33:47 1997
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From: RigbyL aol.com
Subject: Re: Natural and Supernatural
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 18:06:04 -0400 (EDT)
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James--
(( Mathematics doesn't happen in nature. . . . Mathematics
*exists* only
in the human brain - and in those artefacts we've created to
extend
its mathematical powers. ))
I agree completely with your point about mathematics, but I
couldn't help
noticing how difficult it is when using conventional language to
avoid an
unintended (I think) duality. The two sentences above, taken
together, would
suggest that the human brain is not part of nature, which I am
sure is not
something you meant to imply.
This probably caught my eye because I have been rereading some of
David
Bohm's work recently, regarding shifting our consciousness to
perceive
distinctions within a unity, instead of perceiving separations. I
am again
tackling the chapter in "Wholeness and the Implicate Order" in
which he
proposes a new grammar to help shift thinking to the wholeness
perspective.
We seem to be a long way from being able to take on that
perspective, but at
least some of us are beginning to be aware of what it might mean,
thanks to
the likes of Bohm, Bortoft and Barfield.
Regards,
Rigby
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 14 22:40:23 1997
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From: James Souttar (ancient urizen.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Aryosophy and Peter Koenig (was: Hitler and
materialism)
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 12:07:54 +0100
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Herman:
)Would James call historians studying the eighteenth century, the
)Middle Ages, or ancient Egypt, all of them even more
'long-defunct',
)even more 'parochialist' then? I would not.
Studying the changing role of the brothel keeper in eighteenth
century London, or the techniques of making fools' bladders in the
Angevin Courts, or the impact of confectionery in Middle Egypt, is
what I (and I suspect many others) would call parochialist. If
this
kind of research is funded out of the public purse, I can
certainly
think of better ways of spending those funds...
The history of twentieth century occultist sects is, no doubt, of
great interest to the sort of people who write popular historical
novels - and want to spice up their offerings with a bit of
'realistic' salon seancing. But otherwise I can't see how they can
be
of any more relevance than (say) the annals of the Northallerton
Model Railway Club 1921-1946 - or any other highly obscure
interest.
Something for a retired person to fill those 'golden hours',
methinks.
On the other hand, I'd agree that Besant is a figure worthy of
study
- but precisely because she was a political figure, and not
because
she and Leadbetter believed they could see 'Auras'. Similarly, you
don't have to examine the packing lists for the Nazis bizarre
expeditions to Afghanistan or Tibet, to understand why they became
a
popular political force in 1930s Germany - or why they fostered a
megalomaniac, repressive state. Any organization that begins as
street-level thugs will naturally become thus - as the Baath party
in
Syria and Iraq shows. There's much that's weird about Hafez Assad
or
Saddam Hussein - but I don't think anyone's conspiracy theory
(yet!)
goes as far as trying to associate them with Steiner.
James
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 14 22:39:58 1997
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From: James Souttar (ancient urizen.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Natural and Supernatural
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 12:28:18 +0100
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Rigby:
)I agree completely with your point about mathematics, but I
couldn't
)help noticing how difficult it is when using conventional
language
)to avoid an unintended (I think) duality.The two sentences above,
)taken together, would suggest that the human brain is not part of
)nature, which I am sure is not something you meant to imply.
You're right, of course. What I meant was that we predicate
mathematical properties to phenomena, whereas the mathematics
actually happens in our brains and doesn't - can't - happen in the
phenomenon. In this case, mathematics is being used to 'explain'
the
world in exactly the same way that we use language.
Whether or not the human brain is carries out its computation in a
'mathematical' way is an interesting question. There's no evidence
that the brain resembles a computational device in any respect -
and
it's much more likely that we rely heavily on association and
memory
in the way we do mental arithmatic (hence, presumably, the
importance
of 'learning' tables...).
)This probably caught my eye because I have been rereading some of
)David Bohm's work recently, regarding shifting our consciousness
to
)perceive distinctions within a unity, instead of perceiving
)separations. I am again tackling the chapter in "Wholeness and
the
)Implicate Order" in which he proposes a new grammar to help shift
)thinking to the wholeness perspective.
David Bohm was heavily influenced by Benjamin Lee Whorf's writings
in developing his ideas about the inadequacy of our language to
express the concepts of quantum physics. Toward the end of his
life,
and under the auspices of the Fetzer Institute, Bohm convened a
meeting with intellectual leaders and scientists from the Native
American communities to test Whorf's assertion (vehemently denied
by
Pinker, BTW) that some Native American languages naturally lent
themselves to expressing the notion of a universe without linear
time. And basically they corroborated that view.
No doubt it will excite Herman to discover Bohm's connection to
Whorf, and Whorf's connection to the Theosophical Society, and
enable
him to match up several pieces of his conspiracy jigsaw (g).
James
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 14 22:39:39 1997
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From: John Calkins (calkins kodak.com)
Subject: Re: Three points
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 07:43:38 -0400
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Herman:
)The overwhelming majority of Buddhists does not have any problem
with
)subscribing to
)two religions simultaneously. Yet, we call Buddhism a religion.
)
)Scientology calls itself a religion. Officially, it does not have
any
)problem with subscribing to
)two religions simultaneously (Personally, I think there might be
)problems if someone contributed lots of money to the 'other'
religion;
)money, which then could not go to Scientology).
)
)The Liberal Catholic Church; and Theosophy, do not have any
problem
)with subscribing to
)two religions simultaneously (Theosophists sometimes said that
people
)can have any `exoteric' religion (like Anglicanism, Hinduism
etc.)
)they want, if only their 'esoteric' religion is Theosophy). Etc.
Herman, your point is well taken in the general sense. However,
from
what I have observed in my dealings with the students at
Sunbridge, I
judge that something similar to what you describe is not what is
going
on in the minds of most of them. My take is that most students
maintain
their religions (exclusive of others) and use anthroposophy as a
tool to
better understand their faiths.
John Calkins
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 14 22:39:52 1997
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From: James Souttar (ancient urizen.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Three points
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 12:51:52 +0100
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Herman:
)The Liberal Catholic Church; and Theosophy, do not have any
problem
)with subscribing to two religions simultaneously (Theosophists
)sometimes said that people can have any `exoteric' religion (like
)Anglicanism, Hinduism etc.) they want, if only their 'esoteric'
)religion is Theosophy). Etc.
More to the point, Freemasonry expects that its members will
subscribe to other religions - and has no conflict with them
(although, as in the case of the Catholic Church, the 'other'
religion may itself have a problem with it).
Is Freemasonry a religion? Is Anthroposophy? The two are more
alike
than they seem, in that in both cases the members emphatically
assert
that they are not religions - and in both cases as small group of
axe-grinding critics insist they are.
In end, it's back to rather pointless semantics. The 'is it, isn't
it' issue is only a problem for Anthroposophy in relation to the
American Constitution - a rather antiquated document drawn up by
people who were themselves predominantly Freemasons and Deists...
James
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 14 22:46:36 1997
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From: Steve Premo (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: US constitution on church and state (Was: Three
points)
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 15:22:32 +0000
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On 14 Aug 97 , Herman de Tollenaere wrote:
) At 12:53 PM 14/8/97 -0400, Rigby wrote:
) )
) )"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
religion, or
) )prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom
of speech, or
) )of the press; or the right of people peaceably to assemble, and
to petition
) )the Government for a redress of grievances."
) )
) )In the context of the full paragraph, the first sentence would
seem to
) )emphasize freedom to establish religion rather than prohibition
of any form
) )of Congressional support of religion.
)
) Herman:
) Though I am not a lawyer or American legal historian, I think
) 'establishment' should be thought of here as in the 'Established
Church'
) (in eigteenth century England, the Church of England). So, *not*
) establishing a religion from *below* by citizens, as Rigby
implies, but
) making it a privileged *'established'* religion, by the
*government*.
Well, I am a lawyer and like to think of myself as an American
legal
scholar. Herman is correct. The phrase, "Congress shall make no
law
respecting an establishment of religion" means that Congress may
not make
a law which constitutes establishing an official religion. It does
not
mean that Congress may make no law which applies to a religious
establishment, e.g., a church. That is taken care of by the
following
clause, which prohibits Congress from making a law which prohibits
the
free exercise of religion.
This has consistently been the interpretation of that phrase
throughout
American legal history, and I suspect that it could be verified
through
such sources as the Federalist Papers.
Steve Premo ------ Santa Cruz, California
--
"It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from
falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the
government from falling into error." -- Justice Robert H. Jackson
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 14 22:42:09 1997
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From: RigbyL aol.com
Subject: Re: Three points
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:53:46 -0400 (EDT)
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James:
(( In end, it's back to rather pointless semantics. The 'is it,
isn't
it' issue is only a problem for Anthroposophy in relation to the
American Constitution - a rather antiquated document drawn up by
people who were themselves predominantly Freemasons and Deists...
))
Actually, the problem seems to be in interpretation of the
Constitutional
provision related to establishement of religion, not in the
language of the
Constitution itself. Here is the full text of the first amendment:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or
of the press; or the right of people peaceably to assemble, and to
petition
the Government for a redress of grievances."
In the context of the full paragraph, the first sentence would
seem to
emphasize freedom to establish religion rather than prohibition of
any form
of Congressional support of religion. Note that "separation of
church and
State" is not found here--that is a slogan that developed later.
So it's not
the Constitution per se that is the issue, but the subsequent
court findings
on specific cases. The Constitution itself is not such a bad
document,
considering that it was put together primarily by renegade
Englishmen.
Cheers,
Rigby
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 14 22:43:07 1997
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From: RigbyL aol.com
Subject: Re: Natural and Supernatural
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 13:07:58 -0400 (EDT)
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James:
(( No doubt it will excite Herman to discover Bohm's connection to
Whorf, and Whorf's connection to the Theosophical Society, and
enable
him to match up several pieces of his conspiracy jigsaw (g). ))
It's just another example of the wholeness of nature.
Rigby
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 14 22:43:27 1997
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From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Re: Aryosophy and history (was: Hitler and materialism)
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 20:14:39 +0200
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At 12:07 PM 14/8/97 +0100, you wrote:
)Herman:
)
))Would James call historians studying the eighteenth century, the
))Middle Ages, or ancient Egypt, all of them even more
'long-defunct',
))even more 'parochialist' then? I would not.
James:
)Studying the changing role of the brothel keeper in eighteenth
)century London, or the techniques of making fools' bladders in
the
)Angevin Courts, or the impact of confectionery in Middle Egypt,
is
)what I (and I suspect many others) would call parochialist.
It all depends *how* you do it. Do you do it as part of a wider
perspective?
If you can show that the role of the brothel keeper *did* change,
it may say
something wider, about long time shifts in gender, in men's and
women's
positions in society.
Your comment is somewhat reminiscent of Carlyle (a great favourite
with many
Theosophists), who deplored 'Dryasdust' historians, working on
details.
However, without details you can never have any meaningful wider
perspective. Main outlines without details may lead to
pseudohistory like
Arnold Toynbee's A Study of History, or some (*not* all!!)
attempts by
sociologists or anthropologists at history. By the way, I did
*not* coin the
word 'anthropologists', even though (like 'Aryosophists') it
*sounds* like
Anthroposophists.
)On the other hand, I'd agree that Besant is a figure worthy of
study
)- but precisely because she was a political figure, and not
because
)she and Leadbetter
(Sorry) it is C.W. *Leadbeater*. I correct this because even
historians'
writings sometimes misspell his name.
)believed they could see 'Auras'.
So did Rudolf Steiner. Do you think all three of them, or one or
two of
them, or zero of them, were correct, James?
Of course, without studying Besant's Theosophy you can neither
really
explain her rise, nor her fall, in Indian politics; as I did in my
The
Politics of Divine Wisdom.
As fot nazism: George Mosse explained that you cannot explain
politics
completely from politics; neither can you completely explain
Hitler from
economics (as Mosse objected to Marxist historians doing). Mosse
in the
early 1960s was a pioneer in focusing attention on occult ideas;
many have
followed up. It is a pity that the ex-Waldorf teacher Trevor
Ravenscroft
uses this attention to write the nonsensical novel The Spear of
Destiny,
passing it off as history.
regards
Herman
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 14 22:43:21 1997
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From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Re: Three points
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 20:14:43 +0200
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At 12:51 PM 14/8/97 +0100, James wrote:
)Is Freemasonry a religion?
No, I would say about mainstream Masonry. To a large extent: yes,
I would
say about many forms of 'high grade' 'fringe' masonry (of
Cagliostro's
'Misraim', de Saint Martin, Annie Besant's 'co-masonry' and Rudolf
Steiner's
'Misraim'.)
)Is Anthroposophy? The two are more alike
)than they seem, in that in both cases the members emphatically
assert
)that they are not religions - and in both cases as small group of
)axe-grinding critics insist they are.
)
)In end, it's back to rather pointless semantics. The 'is it,
isn't
)it' issue is only a problem for Anthroposophy in relation to the
)American Constitution - a rather antiquated document
Would you prefer an established religion, then?
regards,
Herman de Tollenaere
)drawn up by
)people who were themselves predominantly Freemasons and Deists...
)
)James
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 14 22:45:12 1997
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From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Re: US constitution on church and state (Was: Three
points)
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 22:29:11 +0200
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At 12:53 PM 14/8/97 -0400, Rigby wrote:
)James:
)
)(( In end, it's back to rather pointless semantics. The 'is it,
isn't
) it' issue is only a problem for Anthroposophy in relation to the
) American Constitution - a rather antiquated document drawn up by
) people who were themselves predominantly Freemasons and
Deists...
) ))
Rigby:
)Actually, the problem seems to be in interpretation of the
Constitutional
)provision related to establishement of religion, not in the
language of the
)Constitution itself. Here is the full text of the first
amendment:
)
)"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
religion, or
)prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom
of speech, or
)of the press; or the right of people peaceably to assemble, and
to petition
)the Government for a redress of grievances."
)
)In the context of the full paragraph, the first sentence would
seem to
)emphasize freedom to establish religion rather than prohibition
of any form
)of Congressional support of religion.
Herman:
Though I am not a lawyer or American legal historian, I think
'establishment' should be thought of here as in the 'Established
Church' (in
eigteenth century England, the Church of England). So, *not*
establishing a
religion from *below* by citizens, as Rigby implies, but making it
a
privileged *'established'* religion, by the *government*.
The New Oxford Illustrated Dictionary has under 'establish': to
'place
(Church) in position of national or State Church.'
)Note that "separation of church and,
)State" is not found here
I think the *idea* *is* there, as I pointed out above.
Cheers,
Herman
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 17 06:26:45 1997
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From: Steve Premo (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Three points
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 11:03:26 +0000
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On 15 Aug 97 , John Calkins wrote:
) Steve Premo makes some interesting points:
)
) )There are certain values that have such great utility to a
society
) )that those cultures who do not hold such values tend to
decline.
) )For example, the usefulness of communication is considerably
) )diminished if lying is socially acceptable. Those cultures in
) )which communication is most effective have a competitive
) )advantage over cultures in which communication is unreliable.
)
) The issue you raise here has very complex implications. On the
one
) hand, the dominant culture of today (American-style
corporate-dominated
) materialism) is spreading globally at a rapid pace. It appears
to be
) thriving, but do the values of this culture include honesty?
When you
) look at the half truths and deceptions of the companies we
patronize and
) the people we elect to public office, I think it is clear the
answer is
) no. I think a more representative principle of our culture is
"looking
) out for number one".
I disagree. Lying is still considered morally wrong, and while
"half-truths and deceptions" are widespread, they are not valued.
Moreover, I don't see this as more of a problem today than in,
say, the
19th century, when "yellow journalism" was the order of the day,
and
snake-oil salesmen travelled from town to town. And a reading of
Shakespeare shows that there were plenty of deceiving opportunists
in his
time.
In any event, I'm not sure that this particular moral value is
universal
as applied to people outside one's own "group," however that may
be
defined. I'm no anthropologist, but there may well be cultures in
which
it is considered wrong to lie to people in one's own tribe or
nation, but
perfectly acceptable to lie to outsiders.
While I agree with much of what you say about American corporate
culture,
I do not consider it evidence that morals come from an outside
spiritual
source, rather than from human cultural trends.
I personally believe that truth, beauty, and love are all related
to a
universal cosmic spiritual force, and are all aspects of the
recognition
that we are all connected on a spiritual level. But that belief is
based
on faith; I don't think that it is necessary to hypothesize such a
spiritual force in order to explain either human culture or the
physical
world.
Steve Premo ------ Santa Cruz, California
--
"It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from
falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the
government from falling into error." -- Justice Robert H. Jackson
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
From ??? ??? Fri Aug 15 11:09:14 1997
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From: John Calkins (calkins kodak.com)
Subject: Re: Three points
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 11:00:45 -0400
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Steve Premo makes some interesting points:
)(a) we are all sinners; (b) we will all spend eternity in hell
)unless we accept Christ as our savior; and (c) those who accept
Christ
)will spend eternity in heaven. It seems to me that these are the
)basic, fundamental beliefs of Christianity (even though they
don't
)really reflect the teachings of Jesus).
I think you have it here, but you need to take it a little
further.
(a), (b), and (c) may be commonly accepted Christian beliefs
today, but
as you say they are not reflective of the compassion, forgiveness,
and
social service that Christ taught. It seems to me that the
emphasis on
(a), (b), and (c) was introduced later by those who wanted to
impose a
doctrine of guilt upon others.
I would go as far as to say that people who hold (a), (b), and (c)
as
_the_ fundemental beliefs of Christianity may have a rather
shallow
understanding of Christ. One may argue that the profound meanings
of
Christ's teachings are implicit in "accepting Christ", but I think
many
people accept (b) and (c) without such consideration.
)There are certain values that have such great utility to a
society
)that those cultures who do not hold such values tend to decline.
)For example, the usefulness of communication is considerably
)diminished if lying is socially acceptable. Those cultures in
)which communication is most effective have a competitive
)advantage over cultures in which communication is unreliable.
The issue you raise here has very complex implications. On the one
hand, the dominant culture of today (American-style
corporate-dominated
materialism) is spreading globally at a rapid pace. It appears to
be
thriving, but do the values of this culture include honesty? When
you
look at the half truths and deceptions of the companies we
patronize and
the people we elect to public office, I think it is clear the
answer is
no. I think a more representative principle of our culture is
"looking
out for number one".
My feeling is that today people understand that the greed for
money and
power is stronger than the desire to be honest among those that
control
our economy (these include most of our elected officials and
corporations) and out of apathy it is accepted. Whether we approve
or
not, can it be said that honesty is responsible for the spread of
modern
American culture? I would argue that greed and exploitation
coupled
with our tolerance of them are more responsible.
On the other hand, it is also clear that if radical changes in the
way
we run our society are not made, it is doomed to collapse some
day. It
is clear that real economic activity measured in terms of
utilization of
the earth's natural resources is unsustainable. The amount of
energy
used (primarily the burning of fossil fuels) is on the order of
one
year's worth of incoming solar energy across the entire earth.
Obviously, sooner or later, we will run up against the fundemental
thermodynamic limit of conservation of energy.
)From this point of view one could argue that dishonesty will lead
to a
widespread lack of understanding that results in the demise of the
culture.
It is not clear to me one way or the other whether honesty in
communication gives a culture a competetive advantage for its
survival;
however, I do believe that deep down nearly all people feel it is
wrong
to lie _irrespective_ of culture.
You all may ask, what does this have to do with education? The
issue is
a general one and not limited to Waldorf education. When we see
how
corporate influences have infiltrated our schools, from
kindergarten to
universities, it is clear that public and private education alike
are
becoming training institutes for producing good company workers.
While
corporations are an easy target, ultimately the blame lies within
ourselves. These companies would not wield such control if we did
not
buy their products. Many children are cheated out of discovering
themselves through the elimination of music, arts, and sports in
favor
of math, science, and language skills. Whether our children accept
the
status quo or think clearly for themselves will have a dramatic
influence on what our world will be like for generations to come.
I
believe the quality of their education will have the greatest
impact in
this regard.
John Calkins
From ??? ??? Fri Aug 15 11:11:06 1997
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Message-Id: (199708151757.KAA26999 lists1.best.com)
From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Re: Natural and Supernatural
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 19:56:24 +0200
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At 01:07 PM 14/8/97 -0400, Rigby wrote:
)James:
)
)(( No doubt it will excite Herman to discover Bohm's connection
to
) Whorf, and Whorf's connection to the Theosophical Society, and
enable
) him to match up several pieces of his conspiracy jigsaw(g).))
*What* conspiracy jigsaw? Where? And what does (g) stand for,
please?
)
)It's just another example of the wholeness of nature.
)
)Rigby
Well, in fact not even the *views in the New Age movement* on
nature are
*whole*. Ilya Prigogine, for instance, frequently quoted by
Marilyn
Ferguson, is very different from David Bohm (as pointed out by two
recent
Dutch Ph. D thesises; one by Thomas Vanheste, and one by Wouter
Hanegraaff).
sweet dreams,
Herman
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 17 06:26:22 1997
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: Aryosophy and Peter Koenig (was: Hitler and
materialism)
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 11:06:10 -0800
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James Souttar, you said,
)The history of twentieth century occultist sects is, no doubt, of
)great interest to the sort of people who write popular historical
)novels - and want to spice up their offerings with a bit of
)'realistic' salon seancing. But otherwise I can't see how they
can be
)of any more relevance than (say) the annals of the Northallerton
)Model Railway Club 1921-1946 - or any other highly obscure
interest.
)Something for a retired person to fill those 'golden hours',
)methinks.
I couldn't agree more, but that goes for all of Steiner! His work
would be
of no relevance whatsoever were it not for the growth of the
Waldorf school
movement.
-Dan Dugan
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 17 06:26:58 1997
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From: John Calkins (calkins kodak.com)
Subject: Re: Aryosophy and Peter Koenig (was: Hitler and
materialism)
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 15:06:25 -0400
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Dan Dugan:
)James Souttar, you said,
)
))The history of twentieth century occultist sects is, no doubt,
of
))great interest to the sort of people who write popular
historical
))novels - and want to spice up their offerings with a bit of
))'realistic' salon seancing. But otherwise I can't see how they
can be
))of any more relevance than (say) the annals of the Northallerton
))Model Railway Club 1921-1946 - or any other highly obscure
interest.
))Something for a retired person to fill those 'golden hours',
))methinks.
)
)I couldn't agree more, but that goes for all of Steiner! His work
)would be of no relevance whatsoever were it not for the growth of
the
)Waldorf school movement.
We are all in agreement. As well as the Waldorf school, I would
add
bio-dynamic agriculture, the Three Fold Foundation, eurythmy
troops,
etc. The relevance of a teaching is determined by its lasting
effects
in the world.
What separates Christ's teaching from so many other spiritual
teachers
is its profound lasting influence. The ideas of the teacher
(whether
Christ, Steiner, or anybody else) are validated as they ring true
in the
hearts of others.
John Calkins
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 17 06:27:11 1997
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From: John Calkins (calkins kodak.com)
Subject: Re: Three points
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 15:21:35 -0400
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Steve Premo says:
)I personally believe that truth, beauty, and love are all related
to a
)universal cosmic spiritual force, and are all aspects of the
)recognition that we are all connected on a spiritual level. But
that
)belief is based on faith; I don't think that it is necessary to
)hypothesize such a spiritual force in order to explain either
)human culture or the physical world.
While there may be some minor differences in the details, I think
we are
both saying the same thing.
Calkins also said:
)It is not clear to me one way or the other whether honesty in
)communication gives a culture a competetive advantage for its
)survival; however, I do believe that deep down nearly all people
feel
)it is wrong to lie _irrespective_ of culture.
I think if we would go another round or two clarifying our points
we
would be fairly close to agreement.
John Calkins
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 17 06:31:34 1997
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From: RigbyL aol.com
Subject: Three Points--Point 2: Is Anthroposophy a Religion?
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 10:13:46 -0400 (EDT)
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John Calkins asked for comments on three points, the second of
which is the
subject question: Is anthroposophy a religion? John said, "I have
met
self-proclaimed Christians, Jews, and Buddhists that largely
accept
anthroposophy but maintain their respective religious faiths. If
anthroposophy is a religion, how is it possible for all these
individuals to
subscribe to two religions simultaneously?"
This is a chronic question on the WC list because the premise that
anthroposophy is not only a religion, but a cult, is essential to
the PLANS
rationale for rooting anything associated with Waldorf education
out of
public schools. Simply stated, that rationale is "Anthroposophy is
a cult,
Waldorf teachers are anthroposophists, therefore the teaching of
anthroposophy is implicit in Waldorf education (because cult
members use
every opportunity to spread their beliefs)." This rationale
presumably
extends to any public school teachers who adapt Waldorf
methods--they become
de facto anthroposophists and thus de facto cult members.
The utility of this rationale is that it finesses the requirement
to consider
what actually happens in the classroom--particularly the public
school
classroom where Waldorf methods have been adapted in some form,
rather than
being used in a way identical to private Waldorf schools. If one
suggests
that the church/state separation issue requires evaluation of
classroom
activities, the PLANS response is the "thought police"
argument--essentially,
the idea that it would be impractical to monitor such activities.
It is
simpler to dismiss a whole class of teachers--those who embrace
Waldorf
pedagogy in any form--as placing in jeopardy the public school
guidelines for
treatment of information about religion.
Taken outside of this context of the PLANS mission, the question
can be
looked at more rationally. Anthroposophists themselves dismiss the
idea as
ridiculous. As you point out, many people who embrace
anthroposophy also
retain strong connections with organizations and/or belief systems
that are
conventionally regarded as religious. Yet it is obvious that
anthroposophy
deals with spiritual matters. Indeed, the information from Steiner
gives a
much more comprehensive and detailed view of the spiritual world
(and the
expression of the spiritual world within the material world) than
can be
found in most religious systems of thought. In addition, many
anthroposophists who go deeply into the ideas presented by
Steiner, and the
practices he suggests, tend to relinquish reliance on other
systems of
thought. In some cases, they do indeed exhibit cult-like behavior.
Why,
then, do anthroposophists regard anthroposophy as not being a
religion; or at
least not a religion in the conventional sense?
For myself, the most important distinction between anthroposophy
and a
conventional religion is that anthroposophy lacks a credo--a set
of
statements that define what you must believe in order to be
considered an
anthroposophist. When I joined the Anthroposophical Society in
America I was
not asked to attest to belief in anything. Indeed, freedom of
thought and
the responsibility of each individual to find his or her own way
are
essential principles within anthroposophy. The term "Philosophy of
Freedom"
is more than a book title; it could be taken as a subtitle for
anthroposophy
itself.
In my experience, anthroposophists in fact honor these principles.
It is
this commitment to freedom of thought that makes it possible for
individuals
to hold to familiar religious traditions while exploring
anthroposophy.
Anthroposophy makes no requirement that those traditions be
abandoned.
There is another dynamic that explains why you will find, as you
have, people
within anthroposophy who embrace other religious ideas and
practices. Very
few people have grown up with anthroposophy. It is not taught in
Waldorf
schools. The great majority of people within the anthroposophical
movement
have come to it out of different backgrounds of belief and
practice. By
definition, these are people who are open to new ideas. Some may
be rather
desperately searching for "the one true way," but many have come
to the
understanding that no single system of thought can in fact be the
one true
way. Those who are content with, or afraid to venture out of, the
religious
tradition in which they were raised, simply won't appear within
anthroposophy.
So, is anthroposophy a religion? "Religion" can be defined in a
way to
include anthroposophy, but to do so only blurs the distinctions
between
anthroposophy and what is ordinarily connoted by the term
"religion." When
I am asked what anthroposophy is, it's not the place I start my
explanation.
Is Zen Buddhism a religion? In either case, I would start my
response with
"It has some attributes of religion, butÖ" and then try to
move into a
description of what distinguishes the system of thought from
others. The
insistence that anthroposophy is in fact a religion is only
relevant when
there is some ulterior motive, like that of PLANS.
I will close this note with a quotation from Steiner. I have used
it before
on the WC list but it seems specially relevant to your question.
This may be
found in Lecture Eleven (September 1906), in "At the Gates of
Spiritual
Science," Rudolf Steiner Press, London, 1986:
"There is no absolute truth--each truth has its particular mission
at a
certain time. . . . Truth evolves, as does everything else in the
world. It
is the form of the divine Spirit, but the divine Spirit has many
forms. Ö It
is our duty to enter into what another person says; we need only
make clear
to him that we value him at that stage of truth where he now
stands.
Everyone has to learn for himself, and thus we shall become
tolerant towards
every form of Truth. Ö Love is higher than opinion. If people
love one
another, the most varied opinions can be reconciled."
Best wishes,
Rigby
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 17 06:31:45 1997
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From: RigbyL aol.com
Subject: Re: US constitution on church and state (Was: Three
points)
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 10:32:31 -0400 (EDT)
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Steve
(( Well, I am a lawyer and like to think of myself as an American
legal
scholar. Herman is correct. The phrase, "Congress shall make no
law
respecting an establishment of religion" means that Congress may
not make
a law which constitutes establishing an official religion. It does
not
mean that Congress may make no law which applies to a religious
establishment, e.g., a church. That is taken care of by the
following
clause, which prohibits Congress from making a law which prohibits
the
free exercise of religion.
))
Makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.
I suppose, then, that the court actions that have found against
the use of
tax funds for activities deemed related to religion have used the
rationale
that to do so is to establish a particular religion as the State
religion.
Is that correct?
Also, since the Constitution explicitly references Congress, how
is the
rationale extended to use of tax funds by State or more local
jurisdictions?
Rigby
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 17 06:35:37 1997
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From: Steve Premo (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: US constitution on church and state (Was: Three
points)
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 22:06:18 +0000
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On 16 Aug 97 at 10:32, RigbyL aol.com wrote:
) I suppose, then, that the court actions that have found against
the use of
) tax funds for activities deemed related to religion have used
the rationale
) that to do so is to establish a particular religion as the State
religion.
) Is that correct?
Basically, yes, although in this century the clause has been
interpreted to prohibit establishing religion generally, which
applies also to giving public support to religion as opposed to,
say,
atheism or "secularism."
) Also, since the Constitution explicitly references Congress, how
is the
) rationale extended to use of tax funds by State or more local
jurisdictions?
Well, many, if not most, state constitutions also contain similar
prohibitions. But more specifically, the 14th amendment requires
the
states to provide "due process" to all their citizens, and the
protections of the first amendment are considered so fundamental
to a
free society that to deny those protections is a denial of due
process. (As we have seen on this list, though, our European
friends
have different ideas about such concepts of free speech and the
separation of church and state.)
Steve Premo
Santa Cruz, California
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 17 06:34:03 1997
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: US constitution on church and state (Was: Three
points)
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 15:29:44 -0700
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(x-rich))Steve
)
)(((( Well, I am a lawyer and like to think of myself as an
American
legal
) scholar. Herman is correct. The phrase, "Congress shall make no
law
) respecting an establishment of religion" means that Congress may
not
make
) a law which constitutes establishing an official religion. It
does
not
) mean that Congress may make no law which applies to a religious
) establishment, e.g., a church. That is taken care of by the
following
) clause, which prohibits Congress from making a law which
prohibits
the
) free exercise of religion.
) ))
)
)Makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.
)
)I suppose, then, that the court actions that have found against
the
use of
)tax funds for activities deemed related to religion have used the
rationale
)that to do so is to establish a particular religion as the State
religion.
) Is that correct?
)
)Also, since the Constitution explicitly references Congress, how
is
the
)rationale extended to use of tax funds by State or more local
jurisdictions?
)
)Rigby
The _California_ Constitution reads,
(fontfamily)(param)Helvetica(/param)
(/fontfamily)(fontfamily)(param)Lucida_Casual(/param)
Article 9, Section I of the California Constitution states, "No
public
money shall ever be appropriated for the support of any sectarian
or
denominational school, or any school not under the exclusive
control of
the
officers of the public schools; nor shall any sectarian or
denominational
doctrine be taught, or instruction thereon be permitted, directly
or
indirectly in any of the schools of this State."
Article 16, Section 5 of the California Constitution states,
"Neither
the
Legislature, nor any county, city and county, township, school
district, or
other municipal corporation shall ever make an appropriation, or
pay
from
any public fund whatever, or grant anything to or in aid of any
religious
sect, church, creed, or sectarian purpose, or help to support or
sustain
any school, college, university, hospital, or other institution
controlled
by any religious creed, church, or sectarian denomination whatever
. .
."
Deby
(/fontfamily)
(/x-rich)
From ??? ??? Mon Aug 18 09:02:44 1997
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From: James Souttar (ancient urizen.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Natural and Supernatural
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 97 12:30:34 +0100
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Herman:
)Well, in fact not even the *views in the New Age movement* on
nature
)are *whole*. Ilya Prigogine, for instance, frequently quoted by
)Marilyn Ferguson, is very different from David Bohm (as pointed
out
)by two recent Dutch Ph. D thesises; one by Thomas Vanheste, and
one
)by Wouter Hanegraaff).
I'm not sure I understand your point. David Bohm, as I'm sure you
know, was Professor of Theoretical Physics at Birkbeck College,
University of London. Some of his work (I'm thinking of the
seminar
transcript 'Unfolding Meaning') could be interpreted as having a
slight, oblique connection with so-called 'New Age' views, but in
general the work that people remember him for, 'Wholeness and the
Implicate Order' is a work of theoretical physics.
Bohm comes in here because of his connection with Henri Bortoft
(Bohm
mentored Bortoft as a graduate student). Bortoft's work 'The
Wholeness of Nature' is the definitive modern work on Goethean
Science - and appears to be popular with the Anthroposophical
community, although it is not, except in the very broadest sense,
an
Anthroposophical work.
Bortoft is emphatically clear in the first essay in his book,
'Real
and Counterfeit Wholes', that the kind of wholeness conceived of
in
Systems Theory (which has informed and inspired much ecological
and
'New Age' thought) is what he describes as a 'counterfeit whole'.
The
kind of wholeness he describes - with reference to David Bohm,
Goethe
and Schliermacher's (and Gadamer's) Hermeneutics - is of a quite
different kind. All of which corroborates your point that 'not
even
the *views in the New Age movement* on nature are *whole*'.
James
BTW do you historians still talk about hermeneutics?
From ??? ??? Mon Aug 18 23:48:01 1997
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From: Steve Premo (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Aryosophy and Peter Koenig (was: Hitler and
materialism)
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 09:26:04 +0000
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On 18 Aug 97 , Dan Dugan wrote:
) )The ideas of the teacher (whether
) )Christ, Steiner, or anybody else) are validated as they ring
true in the
) )hearts of others.
)
) In religion they are, but not in other fields of human endeavor.
Many fields of human endeavor are basically subjective, and in any
purely
subjective field, ideas are validated if they "ring true" in the
hearts of
others (particularly those others who are recognized as
authorities
in their fields).
Examples include philosophy, art, literature, drama, dance, music,
and, to
some extent, history (which is largely the subjective
interpretation of
objective events).
Steve Premo ------ Santa Cruz, California
--
"It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from
falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the
government from falling into error." -- Justice Robert H. Jackson
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
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From: Steve Premo (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Three Points--Point 2: Is Anthroposophy a Religion?
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 10:16:24 +0000
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On 16 Aug 97 , RigbyL aol.com wrote:
) For myself, the most important distinction between anthroposophy
and a
) conventional religion is that anthroposophy lacks a credo--a set
of
) statements that define what you must believe in order to be
considered an
) anthroposophist.
The presence of a credo, or dogma, is a hallmark of religion in
the
Christian view, but does not appear to be that useful in defining
religion in a broader context. The Unitarian Church has no credo,
and
yet it is a church. But, one might say, while it is a religious
organization, it is not a religion in itself.
But Judaism is a religion, and one can be a Jew and pretty much
believe
what one wishes. And, as I understand it, there is little dogma
involved
in Buddhism.
Personally, I think a more useful definition would look at the
role that
the possible religion plays in society. Does it provide a focus
for the
spiritual lives of its members/believers/followers? Does it have
its own
traditions, celebrations, rituals, and practices? Does it define a
code
of moral conduct?
) The insistence that anthroposophy is in fact a religion is only
relevant
) when there is some ulterior motive, like that of PLANS.
I assume that the "ulterior motive" you refer to is the motive to
remove
any Waldorf influence from public schools. But there is another
"ulterior
motive," which is to preserve the separation of church and state.
For
example, I have no particular motive to prohibit public schools
from
adopting Waldorf methods, but I am motivated to get a clearer
definition
from the courts as to whether, and under what circumstances, the
use of
such methods is unconstitutional.
It seems to me that, whether Anthroposophy is a religion or not,
it is
unconstitutional to require public school teachers to accept
Steiner's
concepts about etheric bodies, astral bodies, spiritual beings,
and so on,
and it is probably unconstitutional to require public school
teachers to
even learn such concepts if they are not interested in them.
This is different, of course, than requiring the teachers to learn
the
basic concept underlying various religions, which is relevant to
teaching
the class about those religions. The reason it is different is
that
anthroposophy is not taught in the classroom. Its only relevance
is to
convince the teachers of the underlying spiritual reasons for the
pedagogy. This takes the pedagogy out of the secular realm.
On the other hand, I personally think that even if anthroposophy
is a
religion, it would not be unconstitutional for a school to use
Waldorf
methods, as long as the reasons for adopting those methods are
entirely
secular, and not based on any spiritual concepts. This means that
public
school teachers getting Waldorf training should not be exposed to
anthroposophy. As I understand it, most people within the Waldorf
movement are unwilling to have the techniques divorced from the
spiritual
teachings in this way.
Now, this opinion of mine is preliminary and tentative, i.e., I
have not
researched the issue. I'd like to see this issue nailed down by
the
courts.
Steve Premo ------ Santa Cruz, California
--
"It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from
falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the
government from falling into error." -- Justice Robert H. Jackson
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: Aryosophy and Peter Koenig (was: Hitler and
materialism)
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 09:01:29 -0800
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John Calkins, you said,
)The ideas of the teacher (whether
)Christ, Steiner, or anybody else) are validated as they ring true
in the
)hearts of others.
In religion they are, but not in other fields of human endeavor.
Isn't this
just another way of saying "if it feels good, it must be true"?
To choose an extreme example, Hitler's ideas "rang true" in the
hearts of
his followers. Do you accept that as "validation"?
-Dan Dugan
From ??? ??? Mon Aug 18 23:48:20 1997
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From: John Calkins (calkins kodak.com)
Subject: Re: Aryosophy and Peter Koenig (was: Hitler and
materialism)
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 13:43:10 -0400
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Dan Dugan:
)In religion they are, but not in other fields of human endeavor.
Isn't
)this just another way of saying "if it feels good, it must be
true"?
In the shallow sense "if it feels good, it must be true" is not
what I
am saying. Taken in a deeper sense, perhaps it is not so far from
the
truth. I believe if one is truly open to oneself, then one can
feel/know the spiritual truth in his heart.
)To choose an extreme example, Hitler's ideas "rang true" in the
hearts
)of his followers. Do you accept that as "validation"?
In regards to Hitler, in the short term, it is not uncommon for
otherwise thoughtful people to put economic interest ahead of
human
interest. This is a shortcoming of human character to which all of
us
have succumbed to some degree. I think it is fair to say that over
time, the ideas he held are broadly rejected.
From ??? ??? Mon Aug 18 23:48:54 1997
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From: James Souttar (ancient urizen.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Aryosophy and Peter Koenig (was: Hitler and
materialism)
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 97 19:07:52 +0100
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Dan:
)To choose an extreme example, Hitler's ideas "rang true" in the
)hearts of his followers. Do you accept that as "validation"?
'Ringing true' is only a validation if one has achieved a degree
of
emotional and moral maturity in one's life.
In a particularly interesting study (L. Kohlberg, 'Moral
Development
and Identification', National Society for the Study of Education,
Yearbook, 1962, pp.277-332) a group of people were tracked for a
period of twenty years from childhood to adulthood, and the
development of their 'moral' sense examined. The study concluded
that
'moral judgment developed through six qualitatively different
stages
and formed an unvarying sequence'. It also found that by no means
all
individuals progressed through to stage six, but that most
remained
stuck in a previous stage.
The highest stage was characterised by 'fully reversible'
judgments:
those that were able to weigh the claims and consider the point of
view of *all* the parties likely to be affected by the judgment,
and
which compensated for any partiality on the part of the individual
-
in other words, the point of view that 'circumstances alter
cases'.
If one then considers this dimension of 'moral development', the
issue of what 'rings true' can be seen in a quite different light.
Hitler's simplistic, black-and-white pronouncements can only ring
true to someone stuck in the phase Piaget called 'moral realism' -
the belief that a set of simple rules can be used to make sense of
the world. What is really striking is that this phase - which
Piaget
identified with the intellectual development of children of four
to
eight (and which corresponds to stage one in Kohlberg's scheme),
is
in moral terms one beyond which a large number of adults seem to
have
failed to progress.
For the person who has reached Kohlberg's final stage (which one
assumes *should* be the natural outcome of 'normal' human
development), the promptings of an inner conscience are simply
another factor in the assessment of a situation. But, since one is
already likely to have already given the situation the benefit of
a
balanced intellectual analysis - perhaps concluding that one
doesn't
know - the 'ringing true' offers a further dimension of
corroboration.
James
From ??? ??? Mon Aug 18 23:49:26 1997
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From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Re: Natural and Supernatural
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 22:26:44 +0200
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At 12:30 PM 17/8/97 +0100, James wrote:
)Herman:
)
))Well, in fact not even the *views in the New Age movement* on
nature
))are *whole*. Ilya Prigogine, for instance, frequently quoted by
))Marilyn Ferguson, is very different from David Bohm (as pointed
out
))by two recent Dutch Ph. D thesises; one by Thomas Vanheste, and
one
))by Wouter Hanegraaff).
)
)I'm not sure I understand your point. David Bohm, as I'm sure you
)know, was Professor of Theoretical Physics at Birkbeck College,
)University of London. Some of his work (I'm thinking of the
seminar
)transcript 'Unfolding Meaning') could be interpreted as having a
)slight, oblique connection with so-called 'New Age' views,
I was thinking more about Prigogine vs. Bohm's ideas as influences
within
the New Age movement, then as purely ideas of two individuals. My
point is
that within the New Age movement, even glaring differences and
problems are
usually papered over, as pointing at them, or having debates, are
often
considered un-nice and un-'holistic'.
greetings,
Herman
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From: James Souttar (ancient urizen.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Natural and Supernatural
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 97 22:07:57 +0100
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Herman:
)I was thinking more about Prigogine vs. Bohm's ideas as
influences
)within the New Age movement, then as purely ideas of two
)individuals. My point is that within the New Age movement, even
)glaring differences and problems are usually papered over, as
)pointing at them, or having debates, are often considered un-nice
)and un-'holistic'.
I was puzzling over Bohm's connection with the 'New Age' movement
-
whatever that is - but you raise other issues here that seem
equally
problematic.
It could be that some people who identify with so-called 'New Age'
issues are trying to find an alternative to the confrontational,
adversarial syle of intellectual enquiry that has (perhaps
unfairly)
characterised academia - I don't know. But I find it hard to
believe
that anyone seriously believes there aren't enormous gulfs between
the kinds of thinking you so conveniently lump together under the
New
Age umbrella. Would you have us believe, for instance, that anyone
attempts to 'paper over' the differences between the late Timothy
Leary - or the Bay Area cyber-hippies (Stewart Brand, Howard
Rheingold etc.) - and the Dornach Anthroposophists? I can hardly
imagine positions further removed from each other.
James
From ??? ??? Mon Aug 18 23:50:10 1997
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: Aryosophy and Peter Koenig (was: Hitler and
materialism)
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 18:24:23 -0700
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)Dan:
)
))To choose an extreme example, Hitler's ideas "rang true" in the
))hearts of his followers. Do you accept that as "validation"?
)
)'Ringing true' is only a validation if one has achieved a degree
of
)emotional and moral maturity in one's life.
)
Hmmm, do you have any suggestions for measurement? How does one
know if
they have achieved the proper degree of emotional and moral
maturity?
Deby
From ??? ??? Mon Aug 18 23:50:19 1997
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From: RigbyL aol.com
Subject: Re: Three Points--Point 2: Is Anthroposophy a Religion?
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 23:38:52 -0400 (EDT)
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Steve Premo:
(( It seems to me that, whether Anthroposophy is a religion or
not, it is
unconstitutional to require public school teachers to accept
Steiner's
concepts about etheric bodies, astral bodies, spiritual beings,
and so on,
and it is probably unconstitutional to require public school
teachers to
even learn such concepts if they are not interested in them. ))
I certainly agree with prohibition against "require ... to
accept," but I
think it would be relevant to include description of Steiner's
view of the
nature of the child. There would be no need, I should think, to go
into
"deep" anthroposophy in order to give suitable background. At this
still
relatively early stage of public education's interest in Waldorf
methods, I
don't think anybody is really sure about what the appropriate
balance would
be.
As for testing the issue in court, wouldn't this have to be done
with respect
to each instance of adapting Waldorf methods in a public school?
There may
be significant differences from one area to another, so that a
finding with
respect to one particular program would not necessarily be
applicable in
another. Also, it would seem that the constitutionality question
relative to
public teacher training methods is separable from the question of
the methods
they then use in their classrooms.
Rigby
From ??? ??? Tue Aug 19 22:04:39 1997
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: Three Points--Point 2: Is Anthroposophy a Religion?
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 23:37:42 -0700
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Rigby writes,
[snip]
Also, it would seem that the constitutionality question relative
to
)public teacher training methods is separable from the question of
the methods
)they then use in their classrooms.
Are you saying, Rigby, that it is not o.k. to subject children to
Anthroposophical views but it is o.k. to _require_ public school
teachers
to not only learn Anthroposophical tenents, but must bring these
tenents
into the classroom? What if a teacher holds beliefs that do not
align with
Anthroposophy? What if a teacher's vocation and means of income
demand that
she/he not only learn about this belief system she/he is offended
by but
that she/he _must_ bring these tenents in the classroom to remain
employed?
I would like to think that people throughly investigate issues
that affect
them. When public teachers begin to look deeper into Waldorf, they
see
religion. This may be truer for teachers who either belong to an
organized
religion whose views do not line up with Anthroposophy, agnostics
or
athiests. New ager's seem to like what they see. I think RS
College is
depending on public school teachers _not_ to throughly
investigate. I think
RS College is seeing the tip of the iceberg with Oak Ridge parents
and
teachers protest.
For me, this is both a legal and moral question. Private Waldorf
teachers
voluntarily receive training. Public school teachers don't have a
choice if
the school board mandates their school teach Waldorf curriculum
which
requires religious training. If you protest, you are quickly
rallied
against, scapegoated, and invalidated. For shame.
Deby
From ??? ??? Tue Aug 19 22:07:46 1997
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From: Steve Premo (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Three Points--Point 2: Is Anthroposophy a Religion?
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 08:33:14 +0000
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On 18 Aug 97 , RigbyL aol.com wrote:
) Steve Premo:
)
) (( It seems to me that, whether Anthroposophy is a religion or
not, it is
) unconstitutional to require public school teachers to accept
Steiner's
) concepts about etheric bodies, astral bodies, spiritual beings,
and so
) on, and it is probably unconstitutional to require public school
) teachers to even learn such concepts if they are not interested
in them.
) ))
)
) I certainly agree with prohibition against "require ... to
accept," but I
) think it would be relevant to include description of Steiner's
view of
) the nature of the child.
To the extent that you're talking about, say, the temperments, or
the type
of thinking which Steiner felt was appropriate to a particular age
group,
this is probably true; that's why I specifically referred to the
concepts
of etheric bodies, astral bodies, and spiritual beings. I would
include
reincarnation, too, as a concept that teachers should not be
required to
learn.
) As for testing the issue in court, wouldn't this have to be done
with
) respect to each instance of adapting Waldorf methods in a public
school?
There are certain basic questions that are common to all public
schools
using Waldorf methods. First, is anthroposophy a religion within
the
meaning of the first amendment? If not, that settles it.
Second, if anthroposophy is a religion, is it a violation of the
first
amendment to adopt a pedagogy that is based on anthroposophy, but
which
does not teach religious concepts to the students? Again, this is
a
question common to any public Waldorf school.
Third, if it is not a violation to adopt the pedagogy, does the
school
keep anthroposophy sufficiently separate from the curriculum to
avoid
first amendment problems? This would have to be decided on a
case-by-case
basis, but only after the first two issues were decided.
)Also, it would seem that the constitutionality
) question relative to public teacher training methods is
separable from
) the question of the methods they then use in their classrooms.
Yes, to some extent. The teachers have a right not to have to
undergo
religious or spiritual training as a condition of teaching. To the
extent
that the teacher training violates their rights, this is a
separate issue
from the question of whether the adoption of a Waldorf pedagogy
violates
the rights of the students.
But they are also related. I suspect that if the pedagogy is
taught
expressly for the purpose of assisting the spiritual development
of the
child, so as to enhance the child's karma and enable the child to
help
bring about the coming Michaelian Age and resist the machinations
of
Lucifer and Ahriman, and the teachers are so instructed, this
would have
very different implications than if the teachers learn none of
this, and
are merely using Waldorf methods because they produce
self-confident,
well-rounded individuals.
Steve Premo ------ Santa Cruz, California
--
"It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from
falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the
government from falling into error." -- Justice Robert H. Jackson
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
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From: Steve Premo (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Three Points--Point 2: Is Anthroposophy a Religion?
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:10:38 +0000
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On 19 Aug 97, James Souttar, loyal subject of Her Royal Majesty,
Queen Elizabeth II, lectured the Americans on political
anachronisms:
) I'll reiterate again that, from a UK perspective (where we have
not
) only 'established' Church of England public schools - but also
) Catholic, Jewish and Muslim ones) there does not seem to be a
problem
) with integrating schools with a sectarian bias into the public
) education system. Parents can make informed choices, and these
schools
) continue to exist because they are very popular.
That's interesting; I was under the impression that private
schools
(referred to as "public" schools) were the norm in Britain, and
that state
schools were not so popular. In the U.S., where state schools are
the
norm, the resources just aren't there to establish four or five
different
schools to serve the same populace.
) To some extent your
) beloved First Amendment is something of a straw man, protecting
you
) from supposed evils (which were probably very real in the late
) eighteenth century) that really don't exist any more.
Don't they? There are plenty of people who want to make the US a
Christian (and Protestant) country. The Christian Coalition is a
pretty
strong group, and in some communities, they have succeeded in
electing
school boards which have attempted to prohibit public school
teachers
from teaching Darwinian evolution, and require those teachers to
teach the
Biblical story of creation. Think about that. A world something
like
5,000 years old, in which such antediluvian creatures as dinosaurs
co-existed with humans.
They are ultimately defeated in the courts, though, because we
have the
protection of our beloved straw man.
Steve Premo ------ Santa Cruz, California
--
"It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from
falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the
government from falling into error." -- Justice Robert H. Jackson
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
From ??? ??? Tue Aug 19 22:07:35 1997
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From: James Souttar (ancient urizen.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Aryosophy and Peter Koenig (was: Hitler and
materialism)
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 97 12:57:54 +0100
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Deby:
)Hmmm, do you have any suggestions for measurement? How does one
know
)if they have achieved the proper degree of emotional and moral
)maturity?
Kohlberg's research involved methods for establishing the degree
of
emotional and moral maturity. It's pretty old now (35+ years), but
I
think in many ways the findings are still relevant.
In general, it seems that his model of emotional and moral growth
involved developing from a position of making judgments on the
basis
of simple, rigid precepts through to making judgments based on
empathetic identification with each of the parties involved. I
suppose it's not difficult (presupposing one has moved beyond the
elementary stages) to have a sense as to where one is along this
continuum.
The point, I think, is not about the methodology (I'm sure there
are
more sophisticated models). But in answer to Dan's point, it is
very
unlikely that anyone whose basis for judgment was inclusive and
contextual was going to be stirred up by one of Hitler's speeches
to
go and throw a brick through the window of a Jewish grocer. On the
other hand, someone who was looking for the certainty of easy
answers
to questions like 'why is my life so difficult?' might well settle
uncritically for 'because there is an international
Zionist/Bolshevist conspiracy'.
I suppose the question that hangs off of this is 'are people who
are
attracted to Steiner/Anthroposophy/Waldorf Education looking for
easy
answers - or are they making mature judgments (perhaps considering
'inner promptings' alongside more 'rational' criteria). Needless
to
say, I'm sure our opinions will differ on this one (g).
James
From ??? ??? Tue Aug 19 22:07:37 1997
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From: James Souttar (ancient urizen.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Three Points--Point 2: Is Anthroposophy a Religion?
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 97 13:29:46 +0100
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Deby:
)For me, this is both a legal and moral question. Private Waldorf
)teachers voluntarily receive training. Public school teachers
don't
)have a choice if the school board mandates their school teach
)Waldorf curriculum which requires religious training.
It is somewhat unfair to land this at the door of RSC. If a public
education department seizes on Waldorf as a (potential) answer to
endemic problems that it is facing - and wants to implement it in
the
public sector - the responsibility for facing these questions
rests
squarely with them. The WE position seems to be both consistent
and
logical - that to deliver Waldorf Education a teacher needs to
have a
grasp of, and sympathy with, Anthroposophy. If the education
department had seized on, say, convent education as the answer to
its
predicament, it would similarly have to face the issue of how to
break it to those teachers that they will have to become nuns.
I'll reiterate again that, from a UK perspective (where we have
not
only 'established' Church of England public schools - but also
Catholic, Jewish and Muslim ones) there does not seem to be a
problem
with integrating schools with a sectarian bias into the public
education system. Parents can make informed choices, and these
schools continue to exist because they are very popular. To some
extent your beloved First Amendment is something of a straw man,
protecting you from supposed evils (which were probably very real
in
the late eighteenth century) that really don't exist any more.
James
From ??? ??? Tue Aug 19 22:05:08 1997
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From: John Calkins (calkins kodak.com)
Subject: Re: Aryosophy and Peter Koenig (was: Hitler and
materialism)
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:08:03 -0400
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)James:
))'Ringing true' is only a validation if one has achieved a degree
of
))emotional and moral maturity in one's life.
))
)Hmmm, do you have any suggestions for measurement? How does one
know
)if they have achieved the proper degree of emotional and moral
)maturity?
)Deby
How? Through qualitative assessment. The whole idea of trying to
measure the development of the human mind in a real quantitative
manner
is either impractical or impossible. Spending enough time with an
individual, most people will be able to assess his emotional and
moral
maturity. How are appraisals in the work place given? There are no
standardized tests that I have heard of in my experience in the
business
world. By working and relating with people over a long enough
period of
time, a qualitative appraisal can be made that is quite
representative.
Even though qualitative assessments are debatable (no method is
perfect), this type of method is widely accepted among employers.
This relates to the much-discussed subject of studies comparing
Waldorf
students with others; can we devise a relevant test to measure
creativity, imagination, and emotional balance? I think a
qualative
assessment would be much more useful and insightful than any
quantitative testing I can think of.
John Calkins
From ??? ??? Tue Aug 19 22:07:40 1997
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From: James Souttar (ancient urizen.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Aryosophy and Peter Koenig
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 97 14:42:44 +0100
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John:
)This relates to the much-discussed subject of studies comparing
)Waldorf students with others; can we devise a relevant test to
)measure creativity, imagination, and emotional balance? I think a
)qualative assessment would be much more useful and insightful
than
)any quantitative testing I can think of.
I share youre skepticism about quantitative methods - but I think
one
could relatively easily establish a methodology for measuring
creativity and imagination. I'm familiar with some research into
differences between design ('creative') and engineering ('problem
solving') approaches (reported in Bryan Lawson, 'How designers
Think', London: Butterworth Architecture) which used some tests to
establish different ways of working. It would indeed be
interesting
to see how Waldorf pupils would score in a test of this kind,
vis-a-vis a sample from more 'conventional' schools. The Goethean
imagination is a developed and exercised faculty - and it would
indeed be straightforward to test to see how sharp - or how
atrophied
- it was in any particular individual.
I'm not sure how one tests for emotional balance - except perhaps
to
put the individual into an unfamiliar, stressful situation (with
others) and see how she/he behaves. There might be a few ethical
quibbles over this kind of experiment...
James
From ??? ??? Tue Aug 19 22:08:09 1997
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From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: Re: Three Points--Point 2: Is Anthroposophy a Religion?
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 04:39:04 +1200
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James Souttar quotes:
)Deby:
)
))For me, this is both a legal and moral question. Private Waldorf
))teachers voluntarily receive training. Public school teachers
don't
))have a choice if the school board mandates their school teach
))Waldorf curriculum which requires religious training.
)
)It is somewhat unfair to land this at the door of RSC. If a
public
)education department seizes on Waldorf as a (potential) answer to
)endemic problems that it is facing - and wants to implement it in
the
)public sector - the responsibility for facing these questions
rests
)squarely with them. The WE position seems to be both consistent
and
)logical - that to deliver Waldorf Education a teacher needs to
have a
)grasp of, and sympathy with, Anthroposophy. If the education
)department had seized on, say, convent education as the answer to
its
)predicament, it would similarly have to face the issue of how to
)break it to those teachers that they will have to become nuns.
)
)I'll reiterate again that, from a UK perspective (where we have
not
)only 'established' Church of England public schools - but also
)Catholic, Jewish and Muslim ones) there does not seem to be a
problem
)with integrating schools with a sectarian bias into the public
)education system. Parents can make informed choices, and these
)schools continue to exist because they are very popular. To some
)extent your beloved First Amendment is something of a straw man,
)protecting you from supposed evils (which were probably very real
in
)the late eighteenth century) that really don't exist any more.
KOPP says:
Now wasn't it Souttar who was asking me if _I_ was a fan of Ayn
Rand and
objectivism?
Souttar is sounding more and more like Maggie Thatcher, if not Ayn
Rand.
Who believes that every person -- either in Britain, the U.S. or
New
Zealand -- really has this supposed "freedom of choice"?
In New Zealand, New Right social engineering is turning this
"freedom of
choice" into an economic class warfare that will see the middle
class on
the breadlines, and unable to make _any_ choice. Not only that,
but the
poor will be left to rot in the gutter.
Souttar knows, like all idealogues, that the real world is not
like his
preferred, tidy one.
This is extremely important in the U.S., where the "supposed
evils" are
still as great today (including the possibility of religious
inculcation by
stealth in the public schools) as they were in the Founders'
times.
So it is Souttar who is setting up straw men to knock down with
the moral
relativism (situations alter cases indeed) that he's been
espousing in
other posts lately that I don't have time or inclination to rebut.
Only rich parents can afford to make the choices that Souttar's
brand of
political ideology imposes.
The goal in the U.S. is to give everyone that freedom of choice,
by
removing unfair influences.
Waldorf education in the public schools is, in my opinion, a moral
"evil",
because it is NOT a matter of choice for many.
Anthroposophy in any education (as we have argued about ad
nauseum) is also
a moral "evil" for me, both personally, because I was misled and
don't
want it, but am forced by circumstance to allow to continue for
longer than
I would wish, once enlightened to its full extent, and, by
extension, to
all those people who bring their children to a Steiner or Waldorf
school
without full understanding of its basis in superstition and its
pervasiveness in every minute of every day of their children's
lives at
such a school.
From ??? ??? Tue Aug 19 22:08:16 1997
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: Three Points--Point 2: Is Anthroposophy a Religion?
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:59:47 -0700
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)Deby:
)
))For me, this is both a legal and moral question. Private Waldorf
))teachers voluntarily receive training. Public school teachers
don't
))have a choice if the school board mandates their school teach
))Waldorf curriculum which requires religious training.
)
)It is somewhat unfair to land this at the door of RSC.
The problem, as I see it, is that RSC _advertises_ non-sectarian
training.
They are not giving parents and the tax paying public truth in
advertising.
If a public
)education department seizes on Waldorf as a (potential) answer to
)endemic problems that it is facing - and wants to implement it in
the
)public sector - the responsibility for facing these questions
rests
)squarely with them.
Certainly I believe school boards have responsibility in this
issue as
well. If school boards see that they have been duped by an
organization who
advertised something legal but delivered something illegal, they
should be
able to get their money back. Anthroposophy has some very
different beliefs
that are difficult for mainstream America to swallow. It has
turned out
that these beliefs work for RSC, etc. because the critics (not
just PLANS)
sound so crazy when they explain RS's belief system. Then you see
the
kill-the-messenger behavior.
The WE position seems to be both consistent and
)logical - that to deliver Waldorf Education a teacher needs to
have a
)grasp of, and sympathy with, Anthroposophy. If the education
)department had seized on, say, convent education as the answer to
its
)predicament, it would similarly have to face the issue of how to
)break it to those teachers that they will have to become nuns.
Especially difficult when the law protects teachers from having
the
government require a certain belief system as a hiring practice.
RSC
confuses the public issue with their claims of non-sectarian
training. New
age religions have yet to be classified/recognized as sectarian.
This
entire issue is very interesting to me. I think we are on the
verge of
historial significance.
)
)I'll reiterate again that, from a UK perspective (where we have
not
)only 'established' Church of England public schools - but also
)Catholic, Jewish and Muslim ones) there does not seem to be a
problem
)with integrating schools with a sectarian bias into the public
)education system. Parents can make informed choices, and these
)schools continue to exist because they are very popular. To some
)extent your beloved First Amendment is something of a straw man,
)protecting you from supposed evils (which were probably very real
in
)the late eighteenth century) that really don't exist any more.
Again, I have a problem with the full disclosure part of this
problem. That
seems to be the difference between your country and ours, and my
exact
concern. Parents and school boards are unable to make informed
decisions
because Waldorf proponents are not truthful about their program.
If they
were truthful, they could not be funded. So far Waldorf supporters
and
vendors have been very successful simply denying their beliefs.
If Steve Premo (and others) gets his wish and this issue does go
to court
(an expensive endeavor), it will hopefully settle these questions
which has
seemingly come down to an irreconcilable difference between us
critics and
WE supporters.
Deby
From ??? ??? Tue Aug 19 22:10:31 1997
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From: James Souttar (ancient urizen.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Three Points--Point 2: Is Anthroposophy a Religion?
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 97 22:23:19 +0100
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Michael:
)Who believes that every person -- either in Britain, the U.S. or
New
)Zealand -- really has this supposed "freedom of choice"?
Well, it does depend upon where you live. But most families in
Britain have a choice at secondary level between 'streamed'
academic
schools (provided their children meet the entrance criteria), more
inclusive comprehensive education, and specialist schools (such as
the more vocational 'science and technology' colleges). It would
be
nice to think that this choice will eventually extend to other
pedagogies as well - such as Waldorf.
)This is extremely important in the U.S., where the "supposed
evils"
)are still as great today (including the possibility of religious
)inculcation by stealth in the public schools) as they were in the
)Founders' times.
Well, of course there's the inculcation of atheism and materialism
by
'stealth', too. Having been sent myself to a series of schools
which
attempted to inculcate by all possible means a religious, economic
and political world-view - I don't view this as a particularly
serious threat (in my case it was, to my teachers' and parents'
considerable dismay, a miserable failure). If one brings one's
children up to ask questions, pay attention to what is going on
around them, and to resist the more overt forms of educational
conditioning - there's not too much to worry about.
)So it is Souttar who is setting up straw men to knock down with
the
)moral relativism (situations alter cases indeed) that he's been
)espousing in other posts lately that I don't have time or
)inclination to rebut.
Actually the Kohlberg research, which I mentioned, supports quite
the
contrary conclusion to your assertion of moral relativism. Moral
relativism comes from an unwillingness to make judgments - usually
justified by the belief that one needs to make allowances for
other
people's way of life. This is, in a sense, a form of moral and
emotional cowardice - a kind of moral agnosticism that uses the
pretext of cultural diversity as an excuse not to have an opinion.
I
suspect it comes somewhere about stage 3 in Kohlberg's scheme.
For the person who really does enter into the situation, and
models
for herself/himself the points of view of all the protagonists,
there
is a very real sense of judgment. It is open to change, but it
expresses a definite opinion. The murderer may have had a deprived
childhood - and have been provoked by the victim - but this
doesn't
justify his action. It may help you to understand his motivation -
and how he came to do what he did - but it also helps you to
understand why it is important to have a moral position capable of
withstanding the pull of background and circumstance. And so on...
James
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From: James Souttar (ancient urizen.demon.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Three Points--Point 2: Is Anthroposophy a Religion?
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 97 22:57:25 +0100
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Steve:
)There are plenty of people who want to make the US a
)Christian (and Protestant) country. The Christian Coalition is a
)pretty strong group, and in some communities, they have succeeded
in
)electing school boards which have attempted to prohibit public
)school teachers from teaching Darwinian evolution, and require
those
)teachers to teach the Biblical story of creation. Think about
that.
)A world something like 5,000 years old, in which such
antediluvian
)creatures as dinosaurs co-existed with humans.
What I am thinking about is that you have a lobby with this kind
of
support in the US - which does have a First Amendment - whilst we
have nothing that even begins to be comparable in the UK - a
nation
that doesn't even have a Constitution (*and* which has an archaic
established religion to boot).
Perhaps living with dubious anachronisms is an antidote to the
kind
of religious and political fundamentalism that plagues you folk
Stateside? The establishment of our religion was a cynical act by
a
tyrannical and horny king anxious to legitimise a remarriage. So
nobody is going to get all precious and 'spiritual' about it. On
the
other hand, there is (to an English taste) something uncomfortable
about the undue reverence paid to America's secular Constitution -
all that nonsense about disrespect to the flag, for instance, or
the
business of 'pledging' in the classroom. Just asking for trouble,
if
you want my opinion... (g)
)On 19 Aug 97, James Souttar, loyal subject of Her Royal Majesty,
)Queen Elizabeth II, lectured the Americans on political
)anachronisms:
Loyal subject? That's a laugh! But why complain - monarchy pulls
in
the punters...
And while we're on the subject of monarchy, I'll just briefly
mention
that our future King, Prince Charles, has asserted that he intends
to
interpret the traditional honorific 'Fidei Defensor' as 'Defender
of
Faith' - i.e. widening the traditional role of the monarch as
defender of the faith (i.e. the Church of England') to become
protector of all Britain's faiths, including no doubt
Anthroposophy
(of which it would be no surprise to discover he's an exponent).
James
From ??? ??? Tue Aug 19 22:10:55 1997
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Permission requested
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 18:53:46 -0700
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James,
Would you repost your "joke" about the critics on the critics
list? Perhaps
you will give me permission to repost it...
Deby
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 21 09:48:00 1997
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Hautala to Education Week 8/6/97
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 22:11:39 -0700
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Education Week, August 6, 1997
Waldorf Story 'Did Not Do Justice' to Rudolf Steiner
To the Editor:
In your news story "Public Waldorf School in California Under
Attack" (June
25, 1997), you described Rudolf Steiner as "an Austrian-born
scientist and
artist" and the founder of "a spiritual movement called
anthroposophy."
This was not accurate and did not do justice to Mr. Steiner.
Rudolf Steiner (1861-1925) was a crank who dealt in pseudoscience
and
mystical quackery, as typified by his revelation that mistletoe,
after
undergoing a magical ritual, could cure cancer by absorbing
supernatural
forces. He also distinguished himself as an inventor of "history,"
and he
produced a book that purportedly gave factual accounts of Atlantis
and
Lemuria--two imaginary "lost continents" that fascinated many
crackpots and
cultists during the early part of this century. (Among Mr.
Steiner's
disclosures were the "facts" that the people of Lemuria lacked
speech,
communicated by telepathy, and could use mental powers to lift
heavy
loads.)
As this short description shows, Rudolf Steiner certainly was not
a
scientist. Science is an attempt to explain nature by the use of
evidence
and reason, but neither evidence nor reason meant anything to Mr.
Steiner.
Educators who want to learn more about him should consult Fads and
Fallacies in the Name of Science, Martin Gardner's famous book
about
pseudoscience and its practitioners. Mr. Gardner includes
information about
the mystical movement that Rudolf Steiner
founded--anthroposophy--and about
some concepts that the anthroposophists have embraced. These
include an
agricultural version of homeopathy that is a form of water magic.
Anthroposophy still commands some followers, and we are reminded
of this
when the so-called Waldorf schools make news. For example: The
bulletin of
the National Council Against Health Fraud reported in 1995 that
Waldorf
schools in California had experienced outbreaks of disease because
anthroposophists opposed the use of immunization.
(Anthroposophical
medicine, the NCAHF noted, "is best known for clinging to the idea
that the
mistletoe extract Iscador will cure cancer.")
I have no special knowledge of what is happening at the Waldorf
school in
Sacramento that was the subject of your story. I am alarmed,
however, by
the possibility that a public school may be dignifying and
disseminating
scientifically unsupported ideas like those of Rudolf Steiner and
the
anthroposophists. I hope that the California Department of
Education will
investigate this matter promptly.
Earl Hautala
Manager of Research
The Textbook League
Sausalito, Calif.
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 21 09:48:03 1997
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Education Week 6/25/97
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 22:11:46 -0700
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Education Week 6/25/97
Public Waldorf School in Calif. Under Attack
By Beth Reinhard
Unnerved by chanting protesters, a student boycott, and claims of
witchcraft at a Sacramento, Calif., school, the district board
plans next
week to reconsider the school's iconoclastic Waldorf teaching
method.
Oak Ridge Elementary School is one of only a handful of public
schools
nationwide using the Waldorf approach, which aims to teach
academic skills
through art, music, rhythmic movement, and mythology.
Dozens of Sacramento parents and teachers have rallied against the
method
during the past few weeks, saying that it fails to adequately
teach reading
and writing and violates the constitutional separation of church
and state.
Officials estimate that as many as 200 of Oak Ridge's 670 students
may try
to enroll elsewhere this fall, and at least five of the school's
25
teachers are transferring because they disagree with Waldorf.
"I'm a committed Christian, and I feel like using Waldorf would
compromise
my beliefs," said kindergarten teacher Kay Vanderwold, who is
leaving the
school. "I don't feel Waldorf is appropriate for the public
schools."
But other educators and parents in the 51,000-student district say
Waldorf
cultural lessons have been misinterpreted as religious
indoctrination.
Principal Irma Jue said the method engages children from different
ethnic
backgrounds, and she noted that oral-reading test scores have
improved in
all grades since the school adopted Waldorf methods in 1995.
"Waldorf helps
children develop a love of learning," Ms. Jue said. "We use Bible
stories
as literature, but we don't teach religion."
Parent Protests
The debate over the Waldorf approach illustrates the struggle by
urban
school districts to motivate disadvantaged children through
unconventional
methods.
Inspired by reported successes at the nation's 100 private Waldorf
schools,
Milwaukee, San Diego, and four other public districts in
California and
Arizona are trying Waldorf methods at low-achieving schools,
according to
officials at Rudolf Steiner College in Fair Oaks, Calif., which
trains
teachers how to use the Waldorf curriculum.
As in Sacramento, parents and teachers at the San Diego school
criticized
Waldorf's spiritual components, but an independent review last
year found
no evidence of religious instruction.
The school board in Sacramento has scheduled a special July 1
meeting to
discuss whether the Waldorf program should continue at Oak Ridge.
"A lot of our inner-city schools are failing, and we need to look
for other
ways to reach kids, but we've pledged to be responsive to the
community's
concerns," said Jay Schenirer, the school board president.
Superintendent Jay Sweeney said he will recommend that the board
keep the
program but do a better job of explaining it to parents, many of
whom don't
speak English and want a traditional American education for their
children.
About 40 percent are from Southeast Asia, 43 percent are from
Spanish-speaking countries, and 13 percent are black.
Oak Ridge became a magnet school using Waldorf two years ago in
hopes of
improving academic achievement and attracting students from
outside the
neighborhood. Activities such as learning ancient myths, reciting
poetry
that reveres nature, and clapping while chanting the
multiplication tables
were added to the curriculum. ("A School With Balance," Oct. 18,
1995.)
Few people complained about Waldorf until April, when Dan Dugan, a
self-described inventor from San Francisco, passed out fliers
calling
Waldorf an offshoot of a "cult-like religious sect" and encouraged
the
protests. Rudolf Steiner, an Austrian-born scientist and artist
who
established the first Waldorf school in 1919 for workers of the
Waldorf-Astoria cigarette company in Germany, founded a spiritual
movement
called anthroposophy.
Mr. Dugan, whose son attended a private Waldorf school in San
Francisco,
belongs to a small, loosely organized group called People for
Legal and
Non-Sectarian Schools, or PLANS. Its members have also protested
at public
Waldorf schools in Novato, Nevada City, and Marysville, Calif.
The controversy at Oak Ridge escalated at a public meeting in May
when a
teacher accused other employees of practicing witchcraft. School
officials
say these claims are ludicrous.
Uneasy parents started sitting in on classes. Terri Jennings
determined
that her 1st grade daughter wasn't learning phonics, and she was
offended
by songs glorifying the sun and Earth.
She and about 90 other parents picketed at Oak Ridge during the
first two
weeks of June. About 200 students were kept at home in protest.
Visit the People for Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools Web site,
which
contains articles such as "Are Rudolf Steiner's Waldorf Schools
'Non-Sectarian'?" by Dan Dugan and Judy Daar, 1994.
Frequently Asked Questions About Waldorf Education. Produced by
the Waldorf
Education mailing list, this FAQ serves as a brief introduction to
the
subject of Waldorf schooling, whose goal is "to produce
individuals who are
able, in and of themselves, to impart meaning to their lives."
Read, "Charter for Indoctrination?" April 1996, Church & State
Magazine.
This author writes that the Waldorf movement and other groups
advance
religious beliefs in publicly funded charter schools, from the
Americans
United for Separation of Church and State Web site.
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 21 09:48:13 1997
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Anthroposophical way of Dying
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 23:08:34 -0700
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A SJU Waldorf list member (whose name escapes me) recommended a
visit to
Tamara Slayton's web site. Many parents [of daughters] at my son's
school
highly recommend Tamara's "Coming of Age" workshops. Apparently
she is
working on the "Anthroposophical Way of Dying". She, like myself,
became a
mother at age 15 (via the grapevine). Her web site is
http://www.wco.com/~wkind/programs.html . I hope to visit it soon.
Deby
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 21 09:48:15 1997
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: Hautala to Education Week 8/6/97
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 23:11:06 -0700
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Dan,
Do you know the author of this piece? He sounds like he has done a
bit of
research. Do you think he is just another "disgruntled parent"?
Perhaps he
could aid our cause.
Deby
)Education Week, August 6, 1997
)
)Waldorf Story 'Did Not Do Justice' to Rudolf Steiner
)
)To the Editor:
)
)In your news story "Public Waldorf School in California Under
Attack" (June
)25, 1997), you described Rudolf Steiner as "an Austrian-born
scientist and
)artist" and the founder of "a spiritual movement called
anthroposophy."
)This was not accurate and did not do justice to Mr. Steiner.
)
)Rudolf Steiner (1861-1925) was a crank who dealt in pseudoscience
and
)mystical quackery, as typified by his revelation that mistletoe,
after
)undergoing a magical ritual, could cure cancer by absorbing
supernatural
)forces. He also distinguished himself as an inventor of
"history," and he
)produced a book that purportedly gave factual accounts of
Atlantis and
)Lemuria--two imaginary "lost continents" that fascinated many
crackpots and
)cultists during the early part of this century. (Among Mr.
Steiner's
)disclosures were the "facts" that the people of Lemuria lacked
speech,
)communicated by telepathy, and could use mental powers to lift
heavy
)loads.)
)
)As this short description shows, Rudolf Steiner certainly was not
a
)scientist. Science is an attempt to explain nature by the use of
evidence
)and reason, but neither evidence nor reason meant anything to Mr.
Steiner.
)Educators who want to learn more about him should consult Fads
and
)Fallacies in the Name of Science, Martin Gardner's famous book
about
)pseudoscience and its practitioners. Mr. Gardner includes
information about
)the mystical movement that Rudolf Steiner
founded--anthroposophy--and about
)some concepts that the anthroposophists have embraced. These
include an
)agricultural version of homeopathy that is a form of water magic.
)
)Anthroposophy still commands some followers, and we are reminded
of this
)when the so-called Waldorf schools make news. For example: The
bulletin of
)the National Council Against Health Fraud reported in 1995 that
Waldorf
)schools in California had experienced outbreaks of disease
because
)anthroposophists opposed the use of immunization.
(Anthroposophical
)medicine, the NCAHF noted, "is best known for clinging to the
idea that the
)mistletoe extract Iscador will cure cancer.")
)
)I have no special knowledge of what is happening at the Waldorf
school in
)Sacramento that was the subject of your story. I am alarmed,
however, by
)the possibility that a public school may be dignifying and
disseminating
)scientifically unsupported ideas like those of Rudolf Steiner and
the
)anthroposophists. I hope that the California Department of
Education will
)investigate this matter promptly.
)
)Earl Hautala
)Manager of Research
)The Textbook League
)Sausalito, Calif.
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 21 12:05:09 1997
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From: Steve Premo (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Anthroposophical way of Dying
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 08:26:25 +0000
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Sorry, Deby, but I couldn't pass this up...
On 19 Aug 97 , Deby Snell wrote:
) She, like myself, became a mother at age 15 (via the grapevine).
Yes, grapevines are a notoriously unreliable form of birth
control!
Steve Premo ------ Santa Cruz, California
--
"It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from
falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the
government from falling into error." -- Justice Robert H. Jackson
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 21 12:04:15 1997
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From: John Calkins (calkins kodak.com)
Subject: Farewell
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 08:48:00 -0400
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I would like to thank you all for an interesting dialog. I have
found
many of your contributions to be insightful and elucidating.
Waldorf
education can only (and has) become stronger as we critically
examine
our teaching approaches. We should all thank PLANS members, other
critics, and critical supporters, for pointing out opportunities
for
Waldorf education to improve and to adapt to constantly changing
times,
and our children are the ones who benefit. Personally this
experience
has strengthened my resolve to enter Waldorf education, and with
all
sincerity I thank PLANS (I assume) for providing this forum from
which I
have greatly benefited.
As a final comment, it seems to me that the most serious problems
in
Waldorf education today are strongly impacted by the shortage of
qualified teachers. Some schools have a difficult time attracting
teachers who have the skills to run a classroom or a school, and
students and parents suffer for it (as we have heard on this
list). I
believe that to train and to recruit new teachers would be the
most
effective long-term approach to dealing with these problems. I
know of
individuals who would like to study at Sunbridge College but
cannot
afford the tuition. Given the finances of Waldorf schools, this is
not
an easy undertaking.
I will be living very close to Robert Flannery, and I thank him
for his
generosity in offering to accept e-mail for me while I am at
Sunbridge
College. If you feel compelled to contact me, you can send a note
to
litvas icu.com. Robert has asked that you include my name in ALL
CAPS
in the subject field.
Best wishes to you all,
John Calkins
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 21 12:05:15 1997
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: Anthroposophical way of Dying
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 09:17:44 -0700
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)Sorry, Deby, but I couldn't pass this up...
)
)On 19 Aug 97 , Deby Snell wrote:
)
)) She, like myself, became a mother at age 15 (via the
grapevine).
)
)Yes, grapevines are a notoriously unreliable form of birth
control!
I asked for that!!!
What I meant was... I heard from my friends [who attended her
"Coming of
Age" program] that Tamara became a mother at 15. I can attest that
15 is
VERY young to become a parent. My 27+ yo (who is an incredibly
together
person in spite of being raised by a child...) and I are in the
planning
stages of talks with teens about our unique (I hope) experience.
We like
speaking with parents about the importance of free discussion
about
sex/birth control with their teens. The full immersion theory has
its
drawbacks, at times.
Deby
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 21 12:06:00 1997
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From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Prince Charles (was: Three Points--Point 2: Is
Anthroposophy
a Religion?)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 20:44:41 +0200
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At 10:57 PM 19/8/97 +0100, James wrote:
)And while we're on the subject of monarchy, I'll just briefly
mention
)that our future King,
Are you *really* sure?
) Prince Charles, has asserted that he intends to
)interpret the traditional honorific 'Fidei Defensor' as 'Defender
of
)Faith' - i.e. widening the traditional role of the monarch as
)defender of the faith (i.e. the Church of England') to become
)protector of all Britain's faiths, including no doubt
Anthroposophy
)(of which it would be no surprise to discover he's an exponent).
He claims he can talk to trees (at least somewhat similar to
Steiner).
Charles is an exponent of his guru Vanderpost, an exponent of C.G.
Jung
(who, according to the excellent recent book The Jung Cult by
Richard Noll,
was really more the founder of an occult religion, than of a
scientific
psychology).
Herman
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 21 12:07:13 1997
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From: RigbyL aol.com
Subject: Re: Three Points--Point 2: Is Anthroposophy a Religion?
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 20:28:38 -0400 (EDT)
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Deby:
(( Are you saying, Rigby, that it is not o.k. to subject children
to
Anthroposophical views but it is o.k. to _require_ public school
teachers
to not only learn Anthroposophical tenents, but must bring these
tenents
into the classroom? ))
Not at all. I am only saying that it might be possible to have a
problem in
one area (content of training of public school teachers) but not
in the other
(manner in which WE is adapted for the public school classroom).
Rigby
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 21 12:07:21 1997
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From: RigbyL aol.com
Subject: Re: Aryosophy and Peter Koenig (was: Hitler and
materialism)
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 20:41:38 -0400 (EDT)
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James:
(( I suppose the question that hangs off of this is 'are people
who are
attracted to Steiner/Anthroposophy/Waldorf Education looking for
easy
answers - or are they making mature judgments (perhaps considering
'inner promptings' alongside more 'rational' criteria). Needless
to
say, I'm sure our opinions will differ on this one (g).
))
I have found quite a variation across the spectrum implied by your
question.
I don't know that anthroposophy offers anybody easy answers,
considering its
complexity, but there certainly are some folks in the movement who
tend
toward a "true believer" mentality. And there are many whom I
regard as
having made mature judgments regarding their involvement in
anthroposophy--people whose ideas and company I really enjoy.
Rigby
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 21 12:08:01 1997
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From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: Re: Farewell (3rd of 3 replies to John Calkins'
departure)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 14:11:42 +1200
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(Continuing reply to John Calkins' swan song before disappearing
into the
maw of the Anthroposophical beast at a Rudolf Steiner Waldorf
Education
boot camp.)
CALKINS:
)As a final comment, it seems to me that the most serious problems
in
)Waldorf education today are strongly impacted by the shortage of
)qualified teachers.
KOPP says:
Leaving aside the atrocious bureacratese and poor grammar, I think
Calkins
is saying that the biggest problem in WE is a shortage of
qualified
teachers.
As far as I know, there is no statistical evidence about the
credentials of
teachers in Waldorf schools.
The larger issue is not one of qualifications, but what those
qualifications are in and what they mean. My experience of WE is
that a
fair proportion of teachers are not good at teaching anything, WE
included.
Whether that proportion is higher than in a state school system is
unknown,
and I don't assert that.
But does Calkins mean _Waldorf_ qualified teachers, or state
qualified
teachers who also have Waldorf training? It seems to me
(anecdotally) that
there are too many WE teachers with very old or limited state
qualifications who have only Waldorf qualifications -- which ain't
the same
thing as a state qualification by a long shot.
The question of qualifications is, to me, as important as the
question of
the integration or segregation of state (or normal, rationalistic,
scientific) curricula and Waldorf (or superstitious, supernatural,
spiritualistic) curricula. For a WE qualification is not good
enough for
the state, and a state qualification seems unimportant for the WE
sector.
My own Steiner school, for instance, has only recently acquired
senior
teachers from the state sector. Previously, more than half the
staff had no
qualification other than the local Walford teachers programme, and
most of
the senior teachers' academic qualifications were well over 10
years old,
with no evidence of updating in terms of professional development
(aside
from Waldorf training).
It will be interesting to see how Calkins fares in this milieu
with his
likely high academic qualifications (in science, at least).
I do not believe it is possible to ride both horses, as I have
said before
elsewhere and often. One is either a scientist or a superstitious,
and the
two are completely incongruent and incompatible. Those people who
apparently marry the two, as for instance in what is now called
"frontier
science" (in order to lend an air of authority and respectability
to what
is really pseudoscience, and gain it academic status and funding)
are
gullible, or fooling someone.
CALKINS:
)Some schools have a difficult time attracting
)teachers who have the skills to run a classroom or a school, and
)students and parents suffer for it (as we have heard on this
list). I
)believe that to train and to recruit new teachers would be the
most
)effective long-term approach to dealing with these problems. I
know of
)individuals who would like to study at Sunbridge College but
cannot
)afford the tuition. Given the finances of Waldorf schools, this
is not
)an easy undertaking.
KOPP says:
Shortages of highly qualified (not to mention good) teachers
(they're not
the same thing) are not new or confined to the private sector. It
may say
something about WE that more people don't pony up for such teacher
training. If it's as good as you all say, surely people would be
suffering
deep penury to get in.
There is no cure for WE's teacher problem, because the ideas of WE
are
antithetical to rational thought, and WE will not abjure its
philosophy.
But I suspect WE will go on sucking people in to both the schools
and the
teacher training. WE should keep out of public education, and
public
teachers should not to undergo the religious indoctrination of WE
teacher
training.
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 21 12:07:54 1997
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From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: Re: Farewell (1st of 3 replies to John Calkins'
departure)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 14:40:24 +1200
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John Calkins wrote his swan song before disappearing into the maw
of the
Anthroposophical beast at a Rudolf Steiner Waldorf Education boot
camp, and
Michael Kopp wants to wish him only the best for his future
(hoping he sees
this one last message before singing off, or Robert Flannery
passes it on
to him) ...
. . . whether or not he (John) ever wakes up to the fact that he
is joining
a cult-like and potentially dangerous* movement. Perhaps he will
become one
of the few people who, having gone through the indoctrination of a
Rudolf
Steiner teachers college, turns his critical faculties back on and
sees
that the emperor is not adorned with the fine threads he thinks he
is.
The question will then be whether or not he does anything about
it, and
whether the movement is amenable to change from within by its best
and
brightest (for despite his lapses in expressing his ideas well, I
think I
can read between the lines and see the intelligence at work in
John)
However, John's last testament to the rational world is not
promising.
CALKINS:
)I would like to thank you all for an interesting dialog. I have
found
)many of your contributions to be insightful and elucidating.
Waldorf
)education can only (and has) become stronger as we critically
examine
)our teaching approaches.
KOPP says:
How can John say this? Neither he nor anyone else on this list who
is on
the proponent side of the argument has admitted to chaning one
iota of
their thinking on any point of criticism made by any critic.
Either John is being sweet, naive, witless, disingenuous or
stupid.
The only thing criticism of Steiner, Waldorf Education or
Anthroposophy has
accomplished in my experience, both on and off this and other
lists, is a
strengthening of the _laager_ mentality of the proponents and
their
increased use of romantic, superstitious, mystical claptrap in
their
defence. Whereupon they congratulate themselves for their superior
and true
view of the world and thier victory over the philistines.
And as for "critical examination of WE teaching approaches", I
wonder if
John (now or later) can tell us when a major tenet of the Steiner
pedagogy
has changed since Steiner's death? (Much less there being any
rejection of
any Steiner teaching, or any change to Anthroposophy.)
The only "critical examination" I'm aware of on the part of WE is
or
individuals to "work harder through Anthroposophical methods"** to
have a
clearer understanding of why or what Steiner said, even though it
may seem
weird, so that it can continue to be practiced, instead of
changed. Most
teachers, looking at educational methods, are happy to change when
an idea
does not meet the test. WE is self-validating according to
acceptance of
Anthroposophy.
(Continues)
*The danger is not a real, tangible, present danger to children,
as in
child abuse or thought control, although there is some reason to
believe
there is some lesser form of difficulty. But there is an
insidious,
stealthy, danger in the long term.
**"If you understood WE (or Steiner, or Anthroposophy) you'd see
how
wonderful it is." "If you understood WE (or Steiner, or
Anthroposophy) you
wouldn't be so critical." "You don't understand WE (or Steiner, or
Anthroposophy) so you can't criticise what we do."
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 21 12:07:57 1997
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From: Michael Kopp (mkopp actrix.gen.nz)
Subject: Re: Farewell (2nd of 3 replies to John Calkins'
departure)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 14:48:40 +1200
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(Continuing reply to John Calkins' swan song before disappearing
into the
maw of the Anthroposophical beast at a Rudolf Steiner Waldorf
Education
boot camp.)
CALKINS:
)We should all thank PLANS members, other
)critics, and critical supporters, for pointing out opportunities
for
)Waldorf education to improve and to adapt to constantly changing
times,
)and our children are the ones who benefit. Personally this
experience
)has strengthened my resolve to enter Waldorf education, and with
all
)sincerity I thank PLANS (I assume) for providing this forum from
which I
)have greatly benefited.
KOPP says:
Much has been said about the purpose of this list. Calkins seems
to say he
has benefitted from reading criticism of that order to which he
has pledged
himself. Yet I have not seen any postings from him which indicate
that his
thinking has changed in any way about WE or Anthroposophy. Perhaps
I'm
wrong, but I don't think he has benefited from the criticism, or
he would
have changed some of his beliefs about Steiner, WE, or
Anthroposophy.
I want to write more about this later when I have time to think
about it
for an extended bit, but for a response to Calkins, I want to say
here that
the purpose of this list seems to me to be not at all what he
implies by
his pieties about "improving and adapting [WE] to changing times".
If WE
*DID* ever change, that would be a wonderful result, from whatever
source.
But this list is not about *improving* WE, or reaching consensus
between
Anthroposophical and rationalist views of the world, or finding
"common
ground" between proponents of Steiner, Waldorf Education and
Anthroposophy
on the one hand, and proponents of rationalism (including
scientism and
humanism) on the other.
For me, this list is about shouting to the public gallery that the
emperor
is naked, and the tailors are the believers in Steiner, WE and
Anthroposophy.
For me, this list is about discovering and exposing even more of
the
crackpot ideas of Rudolf Steiner.
For me, this list is about preventing other rationalists from
making the
same mistake I did, for whatever reason.
For me, this list is about aiding my former country-folk (them
damned Yanks
and Californians) in preventing the takeover of public education
in the
U.S. by sectarian interests in any form, Waldorf being only the
most
important to me and them because it personally affected us and our
children
in negative ways.
For me this list is about resisting a "new-age" metamorphosis into
a new
dark age.
Were this list in existence five years ago when I was first
seeking
alternatives in education for my children, I would not have made
the
mistake of enrolling two children in a school which has given them
some
warm, fuzzy, pleasant times and attitudes (which is good) but a
poor formal
education, and exposure to superstition presented as fact.
Yes, they have learned some things very well, and yes, they will
perhaps be
better human beings for their time. But that could have been
achieved by an
alternative secular humanistic education as well.
I would like to have from John Calkins a clear statement of what
intellectual benefit he has derived from the criticism (not the
apologia of
the defenders of the faith) on this list, other than a
strenghthening of
his resolve and belief.
I suspect that finding, in criticism, renewed strength to resist
rationality, is the result for those who want very, very much to
believe in
something more than what is real.
(Continues)
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 21 12:10:03 1997
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: School starts
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 23:08:05 -0700
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On the first day of school, my oldest son, Derrick, was greeted
with a
wonderful surprise. Two of his dearest buddies defected from the
Waldorf
school to join his class at the Nevada City School of the Arts. I
think
that makes twenty out of twenty two long term Waldorf children who
have
left the school. One of his best buddies who newly arrived in his
class is
a real surprise. His father serves on the Charter Council and his
mother
works as the Administrative Assisitant at the public Waldorf
school. My son
is absolutely thrilled and I called to welcome the families. It is
nice to
be together again. A slumber party is in the works for the weekend
at our
house.
It is too bad for the new teacher at the Waldorf school. He was
hired in
time to spend a week with the class last spring. I've heard such
wonderful
things about him. These kids are # 2 and #3 that _I've_ heard of
that left
the class. (God knows, I'm out of the loop too.) Number one only
stayed
for a year. The father said to me, "As far as we are concerned,
our son
lost a year. The Yuba River School may be a good idea, but in
practice, it
was awful. Our son is happy to be back in mainstream school."
Deby
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 21 12:12:03 1997
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From: Steve Premo (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Farewell (1st of 3 replies to John Calkins'
departure)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 09:07:31 +0000
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On 21 Aug 97 , John Calkins wrote:
) What I have learned is that the lack of skilled teachers at
) some schools _is_ the most serious problem and needs to be
addressed.
I think you are right about this, John. One skill that is
apparently
lacking in some teachers is the ability to keep anthroposophy out
of the
curriculum. One thing I've learned from this list is that some
teachers
have been known to, say, teach the existence of Atlantis as
historical
fact, or teach that people in ancient civilizations had spiritual
powers
that modern people lack. They are not supposed to do this, of
course, but
not all schools are meticulous about that.
Steve Premo ------ Santa Cruz, California
--
"It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from
falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the
government from falling into error." -- Justice Robert H. Jackson
http://www2.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 21 12:11:52 1997
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From: John Calkins (calkins kodak.com)
Subject: Re: Farewell (1st of 3 replies to John Calkins'
departure)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 11:00:39 -0400
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In response to Michael Kopp, I am sorry that he feels so much
anger. I
truly wish that he will be able to overcome the apparent strife he
has
undergone and find some peace in his life.
With the time I have remaining, I cannot possibly answer all that
Michael has written, but I will choose those ideas that I find to
be
most relevant. I do not have the time to proofread my postings,
and I
apologize to Michael and everyone else for my poor use of English.
)How can John say this? Neither he nor anyone else on this list
who is
)on the proponent side of the argument has admitted to chaning one
iota
)of their thinking on any point of criticism made by any critic.
)
)Either John is being sweet, naive, witless, disingenuous or
stupid.
Either Michael is clairvoyant or makes suppositions of what is
going on
in my mind without really knowing. Contrary to what he believes, I
have
learned of and do acknowledge some problems with Waldorf education
from
the list. What I have learned is that the lack of skilled teachers
at
some schools _is_ the most serious problem and needs to be
addressed.
)And as for "critical examination of WE teaching approaches", I
wonder
)if John (now or later) can tell us when a major tenet of the
Steiner
)pedagogy has changed since Steiner's death? (Much less there
being any
)rejection of any Steiner teaching, or any change to
Anthroposophy.)
Anthroposophists are a diverse bunch, so I can only speak for
myself
(though I do not consider myself an anthroposophist). Furthermore,
I
cannot speak directly of Steiner's pedgogy as I have not studied
it. I
can tell you of those ideas of Steiner with which a have a
problem. As
I have stated many times, I disagree with Steiner's use of
spiritual
science to uncover new laws physics. I also disagree with his
method of
not providing simple intuitive explanations of his teachings.
)But this list is not about *improving* WE, or reaching consensus
)between Anthroposophical and rationalist views of the world, or
)finding "common ground" between proponents of Steiner, Waldorf
)Education and Anthroposophy on the one hand, and proponents of
)rationalism (including scientism and humanism) on the other.
It may not have been the intention of the founders of the list;
however
in practice, this list _has_ multiple uses for multiple people. I
do
not intend to get involved in Michael's battle.
)For me, this list is about preventing other rationalists from
making
)the same mistake I did, for whatever reason.
I agree with Michael that the list is a good tool for weeding out
those
individuals who are not suited to Waldorf education. It is a
useful
service and will save much grief for both the school and the
family. At
the same time, I think his crusade against Waldorf education is an
over-reaction. Obviously WE is not for Michael. I fully support
informing parents of prospective students what Waldorf education
is
about. I think some healthy advice for him would be to get over it
and
to get on with his life.
)I would like to have from John Calkins a clear statement of what
)intellectual benefit he has derived from the criticism (not the
)apologia of the defenders of the faith) on this list, other than
a
)strenghthening of his resolve and belief.
You asked for it. I will give it to you. I have already mentioned
the
disagreements I have with Steiner's teachings and the deeper
understanding of the impact of the teacher shortage that I have
gained. The problem of some unskilled teachers presents a
challenge to
WE, and the knowledge I have gained from the critics will help me
to
address this issue more effectively. There are many smaller
learnings I
have gleaned from the list, but this has been the main benefit for
me.
)I do not believe it is possible to ride both horses, as I have
said
)before elsewhere and often. One is either a scientist or a
)superstitious, and the two are completely incongruent and
)incompatible.
This is Mr. Kopp's _opinion_. I have already presented the
argument of
how it is possible to reconcile the spritual and physical views of
nature (the analogy of the blind men and the elephant). I have not
heard a rational refutation to this possibility but have heard
comments
like the preceding one. The fact is that I have been able to
reconcile
the two views for myself independent of anthroposophy, and this
reconciliation is more or less consistent with what others of
found
using independent means. What is the explanation for this?
Michael,
with apparent frustration, wrote:
)I have been reading Mr Calkins' posts with some dismay that
no-one is
)challenging what appears to me to be very faulty reasoning and
the use
)of words to mean whatever Mr Calkins wishes them to mean. I find
his
)lack of precision frightening in one who has had a career as a
)scientist.
Subsequently I invited comments on this idea of multiple views of
spiritual and physical nature as one of my "three points". Yet I
have
heard nothing substantive in reply from the critics accept "I
don't
believe it" in regard to my experience. Is this issue closed for
the
critics?
I only have a single day remaining, so if Michael or anyone else
have
anything to add, please do so before then.
John Calkins
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 21 12:12:12 1997
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Questions for Charter Schools
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 08:43:03 -0700
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Questions for Charter Schools
Monday, August 18, 1997; Page A18
The Washington Post
THIS MONTH'S verdict against the principal at the District's
Marcus Garvey
Charter School for her assault on a journalist has understandably
prompted
self-examination inside the growing national movement for charter
schools.
This episode, though hardly commonplace, may provide some valuable
lessons.Billed by some backers as "the most vibrant force in
education
today," charter schools are publicly funded voluntary schools
undertaken by
groups of teachers, parents, administrators or community
activists. They
offer a parent-involving innovative curriculum that is more
flexible but
more regulated than that at a conventional public school. Many of
the
schools take on themes such as agriculture, art or music. The
schools are
given taxpayer money by local education authorities on condition
that they
remain accountable for maintaining both financial and qualitative
standards
-- otherwise their charter gets revoked.
The dangers are obvious: Unaccountability and specialization
verging on
idiosyncrasy. And critics worry that charter schools siphon away
energies
better spent on improving
mainstream schools. Some 491 charter schools are up and running in
15
states, with another 280 or so expected within a year.
Twenty-seven state
legislatures, many
Republican-controlled, have enacted charter legislation, while the
Clinton
administration has distributed grant money to launch some 450 of
the
schools, with a goal of reaching 3,000 by the year 2000. In the
District,
20 schools are on the drawing board for the 1998-99 school year,
and
entrepreneur Christopher Whittle's Edison Project is coming to
town as
well. With such growth in this unmapped territory, it is probably
surprising that there haven't been more scandals and failures
among charter
schools; fewer than a dozen have had to shut down, mostly because
of
financial shortfalls. To charter schools advocate Chester E. Finn
Jr., a
longtime critic of public schools, the fact that some charters
have been
revoked is actually good news -- a sign of a healthy response to
mismanagement that is nearly absent in the public school milieu.
With the
benefit of a couple of years' experience and some painful
individual
episodes, the movement is now better positioned to understand the
need for
careful scrutiny of charter school grant applicants and employees,
as well
as
more faithful monitoring of funding recipients to be sure they
stick to
their mission. Charter schools are the property of the public, and
ad hoc
groups that harbor notions of running their own education
revolutions must
be willing to subject their charter schools to the rigorous tests
of public
scrutiny.
© Copyright 1997 The Washington Post Company
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 21 12:12:24 1997
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: testing graduates
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 10:52:31 -0700
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James Souttar said,
)I think one
)could relatively easily establish a methodology for measuring
)creativity and imagination. I'm familiar with some research into
)differences between design ('creative') and engineering ('problem
)solving') approaches (reported in Bryan Lawson, 'How designers
)Think', London: Butterworth Architecture) which used some tests
to
)establish different ways of working. It would indeed be
interesting
)to see how Waldorf pupils would score in a test of this kind,
)vis-a-vis a sample from more 'conventional' schools. The Goethean
)imagination is a developed and exercised faculty - and it would
)indeed be straightforward to test to see how sharp - or how
atrophied
)- it was in any particular individual.
A good idea. Does anyone know who would fund such a study?
)I'm not sure how one tests for emotional balance - except perhaps
to
)put the individual into an unfamiliar, stressful situation (with
)others) and see how she/he behaves. There might be a few ethical
)quibbles over this kind of experiment...
We do it all the time. Class field trips, family vacations...
-Dan Dugan
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 21 16:41:06 1997
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: testing graduates
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 11:39:24 -0700
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James writes,
))I'm not sure how one tests for emotional balance - except
perhaps to
))put the individual into an unfamiliar, stressful situation (with
))others) and see how she/he behaves. There might be a few ethical
))quibbles over this kind of experiment...
)
)We do it all the time. Class field trips, family vacations...
)
)-Dan Dugan
There is a program called 'Tall Ships' in the bay area. The
children
completely run the simulated journey. They cook, clean, navigate,
perform
nightwatch, deal with the ropes and sails, etc. Essentially
_every_ duty
that one would have to perform on a ship in years past is
performed solely
by the children. Adults are called "Big Heads". If a supervising
adult
instructs the young mates, that "Big Head" has to swaub the deck.
The
children are essentially on their own. Of course they have been
fully
prepared in class _before_ they get there. It is stressful, but
the
children leave the two or three day program feeling tired but
capable.
Rope climbing and walking is very popular in our area within the
public
sector. There are elaborate rope courses that children climb and
walk
across during a week long program. One such course exists at our
local
public school. The children are completely safe, but the fears are
very
real. The ropes are extremely high. An awesome program.
White water rafting is also a common classroom experience in our
area.
Things can get hairy at times, but we've never come close to
loosing a
child yet.
My oldest son has had many _wonderful_ opportunities that include
the few
examples I have given. My younger son will participate in these
and other
confidence/character building activities beginning this year, as
part of
his public school experience.
Deby
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 21 16:40:57 1997
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: Hautala to Education Week 8/6/97
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 11:59:44 -0700
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Deby asked,
)Do you know the author of this piece? He sounds like he has done
a bit of
)research. Do you think he is just another "disgruntled parent"?
Perhaps he
)could aid our cause.
)Deby
)
)
))Education Week, August 6, 1997
))
))Waldorf Story 'Did Not Do Justice' to Rudolf Steiner
(snip)
))Earl Hautala
))Manager of Research
))The Textbook League
))Sausalito, Calif.
I don't know him personally, but he's active in the Bay Area
Skeptics. He
edited their newsletter for a while.
-Dan
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 21 16:41:19 1997
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From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Re: Farewell (1st of 3 replies to John Calkins'
departure)
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 22:40:27 +0200
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At 02:40 PM 21/8/97 +1200, Michael Kopp wrote:
)The only thing criticism of Steiner, Waldorf Education or
Anthroposophy has
)accomplished in my experience, both on and off this and other
lists, is a
)strengthening of the _laager_ mentality of the proponents
What Michael says here may well be true for *most* proponents.
However, in
my experience, at least some individuals on the periphery, and
even in the
inside, of the Anthroposophical movement did look more critically
at things
after outside criticism; after one points out, eg, Steiner's
racial
theories. There are instances of this in The Netherlands, in
Germany
(Flensburger Hefte), and in the US in the article by Ida Oberman
on the
PLANS website.
regards
Herman
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 21 23:25:18 1997
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: Farewell
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 16:40:38 -0700
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Thanks for the conversation, John. Please come back when you can.
Best of
luck with your career as a Steiner devotee!
Sincerely, Dan Dugan
From ??? ??? Fri Aug 22 16:17:29 1997
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: Questions for Charter Schools
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 11:33:22 -0700
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)Questions for Charter Schools
)Monday, August 18, 1997; Page A18
)The Washington Post
)
They
)offer a parent-involving innovative curriculum that is more
flexible but
)more regulated than that at a conventional public school.
I would like to know _who_ is regulating charter schools? I
believe this
statement is not based on fact. Just where are the checks and
balances for
charter schools? It is my understanding that charter schools are
locally
governed. School boards are unlikely to have evaluative skills to
measure
student performance.
Many of the
)schools take on themes such as agriculture, art or music. The
schools are
)given taxpayer money by local education authorities on condition
that they
)remain accountable for maintaining both financial and qualitative
standards
)-- otherwise their charter gets revoked.
Does anyone know of _any_ charter school that has produced
qualitative
standards?
)The dangers are obvious: Unaccountability and specialization
verging on
)idiosyncrasy. And critics worry that charter schools siphon away
energies
)better spent on improving mainstream schools.
The concerns seem more complex than this. Charters are often
sponsored by
school districts. Our area is suffering from declining enrollment
in every
school, which clearly results in a reduction of funding. It is
difficult
for school boards to sponsor schools which will add to their
problems.
Charter school proponents say this is not a good system because
school
boards are not interested in creating their own competition. Twin
Ridges is
in a unique position. Their charter schools are located outside
their own
district. They have little to worry about in regards to loosing
their
student base to a charter school because of the distance parents
would have
to travel. The school district where the charter schools are
located
(Nevada City School District) are starting to grumble. They are
loosing
their enrollment to the charters. I think we will be hearing from
them in
the near future.
)Some 491 charter schools are up and running in 15 states, with
another 280
)or so )expected within a year. Twenty-seven state legislatures,
many
)Republican-controlled, have enacted charter legislation, while
the Clinton
)administration has distributed grant money to launch some 450 of
the
)schools, with a goal of reaching 3,000 by the year 2000. In the
District,
)20 schools are on the drawing board for the 1998-99 school year,
and
)entrepreneur Christopher Whittle's Edison Project is coming to
town as
)well. With such growth in this unmapped territory, it is probably
)surprising that there haven't been more scandals and failures
among charter
)schools; fewer than a dozen have had to shut down, mostly because
of
)financial shortfalls.
Taxpayers need to be diligent about Charter school's performance
requirements. So far, I'm waiting to see _any_ report that gives
taxpayers
accountability for our investment.
)To charter schools advocate Chester E. Finn Jr., a longtime
critic of
)public schools, )the fact that some charters have been revoked is
actually
)good news -- a sign of a )healthy response to mismanagement that
is nearly
)absent in the public school milieu. )With the benefit of a couple
of
)years' experience and some painful individual
)episodes, the movement is now better positioned to understand the
need for
)careful scrutiny of charter school grant applicants and
employees, as well
)as more faithful monitoring of funding recipients to be sure they
stick to
)their mission. Charter schools are the property of the public,
and ad hoc
)groups that harbor notions of running their own education
revolutions must
)be willing to subject their charter schools to the rigorous tests
of public
)scrutiny.
Hear, hear!!
Deby
© Copyright 1997 The Washington Post Company
From ??? ??? Fri Aug 22 16:17:46 1997
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Message-Id: (199708221918.MAA04333 lists1.best.com)
From: Luna457954 aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: testing graduates
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 15:18:37 -0400 (EDT)
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In a message dated 8/22/97 10:26:49 AM, you wrote:
((My oldest son has had many _wonderful_ opportunities that
include the few
examples I have given. My younger son will participate in these
and other
confidence/character building activities beginning this year, as
part of
his public school experience.))
It sounds like a great school!
The public high school in our area is a good one also. My daughter
will be
attending in the fall. I've had to move three miles down the road
so that my
older kids could go to a better public school than where I live
now. My two
younger ones still go to the Waldorf school, where my big ones
would be if
there were grades for them (I'm still dreaming about my youngest
being an
eighth-grade graduate, like my oldest was).
In June, my daughter spent a week with the Waldorf eighth grade
class on a
hundred year old schooner. They did all the stuff
themselves...anchor watch,
ropes, etc, etc. They went out on Narragansett bay with the EPA,
and
compared the modern ways of testing water for pollutants,
sediment, etc. with
the old ways. It was an extention of their chemistry block, as
well as other
stuff they'd learned. This was especially good for my daughter
because she
has in the past been apprehensive about leaving home for extended
periods of
time. She came home saying that she had fun and that she worked!
This was
certainly true, as her class also had raised the money themselves
over the
years.
In seventh grade they spent a week at the Hulbert Center in
Vermont, which
among other confidence-building activities had a high and a low
ropes course.
My daughter did both courses, and came back with a sense of
accomplishment
Having completed a high ropes course myself, I know what a
self-esteem
builder it is!).
I believe that confidence-raising activities are important no
matter what the
school, public or private. It sounds like yours is a terrific one.
Kelly
From ??? ??? Fri Aug 22 16:17:55 1997
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From: Luna457954 aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: Farewell
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 15:45:08 -0400 (EDT)
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In a message dated 8/22/97 7:27:37 PM, you wrote:
((Thanks for the conversation, John. Please come back when you
can. Best of
luck with your career as a Steiner devotee!
Sincerely, Dan Dugan))
I don't believe that as an intelligent person you would like to
have someone
drip sarcasm all over you for making a choice you believe is the
right one.
Lighthearted humor is one thing, biting sarcasm is another.
Having read through some of his posts, John doesn't seem to be a
"Steiner
devotee"; quite the contrary, he has questioned Steiner on a
number of
issues.
If I read *your* posts correctly, isn't a person who questions
Steiner's
philosophies just the type of Waldorf teacher you'd like to see?
Or would
you rather no-one become Waldorf teachers, so that WE will
disappear from
the face of the earth?
This kind of sarcasm leads me to believe the latter.
Kelly
From ??? ??? Fri Aug 22 16:18:15 1997
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Message-Id: (199708222134.OAA04129 lists1.best.com)
From: vanmaren mail.uwlax.edu (Cathy J. Van Maren)
Subject: waldorf testing
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 16:35:20 -0500 (CDT)
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))I think one
))could relatively easily establish a methodology for measuring
))creativity and imagination.
)A good idea. Does anyone know who would fund such a study?
TYPE: TYPE: Article
ISSN: 0042-0972
AUTHOR(S): Ogletree, Earl J. TITLE: Creativity and Waldorf
Education:
A Study.
PUBLISHED: (1991
ABSTRACT: This paper discusses the comparative philosophical
tenets and
practices of Germany's Waldorf and state schools with regard to
the
creativity thinking ability of students. Waldorf schools,
developed some 70
years ago, are based on the philosophy of creative idealism known
as
anthroposophy. A study of 1165 third through sixth grade children
from
Germany, Scotland, and England compared Waldorf and public
schools. Students
took the Torrence Test of Creative Thinking Ability, which
includes verbal
and figural components. The test is intended to measure: (1)
fluency, the
number of ideas ideas produced; (2) flexibility, the different
categories of
ideas produced; (3) originality, the unusualness of an idea; and
(4)
elaboration, the development of an idea. Results showed that
cross-culturally, Waldorf students obtained significantly higher
creativity
scores than their public school counterparts. In the figural part
of the
test, Waldorf student pictures showed greater technique, quality,
and
maturity. The findings may be attributable to the maturational
readiness
and nurturing aspects of the Waldorf school, and the program's
discouragement of student exposure to television and radio.
Waldorf
education also tends to foster a positive school climate and
reduce faculty
and student stress. Contains 30 references. -SG
AUTHOR(S): Henry, Mary E. TITLE: The Symbolic Order of School:
Waldorf
and College Prep.
PUBLISHED: 1991
NOTE: Paper presented at the Annual Meeting of the American
Educational
Research Association (Chicago, IL, April 4-7, 1991).
ABSTRACT: Schools embody a "symbolic order" communicated through
school
rituals and social and symbolic relationships. Schools possess a
moral
vision, a system of values and norms that they wish to develop in
students.
This paper compares the symbolic order of two independent schools,
one a
traditional college preparatory school (preschool-grade 12), the
other a
less well known school, called a Waldorf school (nursery-grade 6).
The focus
was on the elementary grades, although attention also was given to
the
whole school program. Both schools are in a wealthy, middle-sized
Southeastern community with a population of 100,000. The study
utilized
observations, interviews, tape recordings, videotaping lessons and
events,
and the study of curricular and other documents. Lessons, rituals,
festivals, ceremonies, sporting events, parent and faculty
meetings, open
days, and other events were repeatedly observed, documented, and
analyzed.
In the discussion and comparison of each school, three
areas of school life were considered: (1) organization of the
school day
and activities; (2) pedagogy or the teaching-learning process; and
(3) the
curriculum. The study revealed areas of school life that differed
significantly between the schools. Each school's symbolic order
embodied
quite different conceptions of the world, relations to others, and
the
individual. Waldorf school's symbolism about the world sends a
message of
democratic, egalitarian values in an organic, interdependent
world:
knowledge is taught in wholes not parts, and through storytelling
not
abstractions. College Prep's symbolism conveys instead the
school's belief
in progress and a hierarchical conception of the world. Contains
46
references. (DB)
- cathy
Cathy Van Maren*Upward Bound*UW-La Crosse*La Crosse, WI 54601*608
785-8539
Three Rivers Waldorf Initiative*PO Box 791*La Crosse, WI 54602*608
782-8774
********************** vanmaren mail.uwlax.edu
********************
From ??? ??? Fri Aug 22 16:18:09 1997
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From: JoAnn Schwartz (jms mich.com)
Subject: Re: Questions for Charter Schools
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 17:44:59 -0400 (EDT)
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Deby wrote:
)I would like to know _who_ is regulating charter schools? I
believe this
)statement is not based on fact. Just where are the checks and
balances
)for charter schools? It is my understanding that charter schools
are
)locally governed. School boards are unlikely to have evaluative
skills to
)measurestudent performance.
This must vary by state. Here in Michigan, charter schools are
sponsored
by University Schools of Education, not local school districts.
Presumably, the School of Ed. would have the means to evaluate
performance.
Sorry, I can't speak to your other questions...:)
Warmly,
JoAnn Schwartz, Detroit Waldorf School parent
(jms mich.com) Detroit MI USA
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 24 01:48:56 1997
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Message-Id: (199708232312.QAA28039 lists1.best.com)
From: "Walter Smith" (wesmith oro.net)
Subject: Re: School starts
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 16:06:31 -0700
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Deby,
I'm not sure how to read your posting regarding the new enrollees
at your
sons charter school. My conversation today with the parent of one
of those
boys clearly indicated that they are not in the least dissuaded
from WE.
In fact they are as committed as they have ever been and their
daughter
continues as a student at the Yuba River Charter School. His words
to me
were, that it was the boys choice. The boy made a good case for
why he
would be better off at the School of the Arts. Out of respect and
love for
their son they decided to let him go his way there, it had nothing
to do
with the parents becoming disappointed with the Waldorf inspired
charter
school.
I also want to add that the Nevada City School of the arts is also
a
charter school and not a conventional public school by any stretch
of the
imagination.
Walter
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 24 01:48:59 1997
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: School starts
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 17:18:02 -0700
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)Deby,
)
)I'm not sure how to read your posting regarding the new enrollees
at your
)sons charter school. My conversation today with the parent of one
of those
)boys clearly indicated that they are not in the least dissuaded
from WE.
)In fact they are as committed as they have ever been and their
daughter
)continues as a student at the Yuba River Charter School. His
words to me
)were, that it was the boys choice. The boy made a good case for
why he
)would be better off at the School of the Arts. Out of respect and
love for
)their son they decided to let him go his way there, it had
nothing to do
)with the parents becoming disappointed with the Waldorf inspired
charter
)school.
)
)I also want to add that the Nevada City School of the arts is
also a
)charter school and not a conventional public school by any
stretch of the
)imagination.
)
)Walter
So what is your point, Walter? I felt I was pretty clear on the
families
committment to Waldorf (parent council/administrative assistant).
Good for
them for listening to their son. We are happy to have him back
with us.
Again, what is your point? I know what kind of a school my son
attends. I
never implied it was a conventional school. It does hire
conventional
academic teachers, however.
Deby
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 24 01:49:47 1997
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From: "Walter Smith" (wesmith oro.net)
Subject: Re: School starts
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 22:49:23 -0700
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Deby:
----------
) From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
) To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
) Subject: Re: School starts
) Date: Saturday, August 23, 1997 5:18 PM
)
) )Deby,
) )
) )I'm not sure how to read your posting regarding the new
enrollees at
your
) )sons charter school. My conversation today with the parent of
one of
those
) )boys clearly indicated that they are not in the least dissuaded
from
WE.
) )In fact they are as committed as they have ever been and their
daughter
) )continues as a student at the Yuba River Charter School. His
words to
me
) )were, that it was the boys choice. The boy made a good case for
why he
) )would be better off at the School of the Arts. Out of respect
and love
for
) )their son they decided to let him go his way there, it had
nothing to do
) )with the parents becoming disappointed with the Waldorf
inspired charter
) )school.
) )
) )I also want to add that the Nevada City School of the arts is
also a
) )charter school and not a conventional public school by any
stretch of
the
) )imagination.
) )
) )Walter
)
) So what is your point, Walter? I felt I was pretty clear on the
families
) committment to Waldorf (parent council/administrative
assistant).
My point was that it wasn't clear; because later in the same
posting you
quote someone about how the school sounded good but didn't work
out for
them. Who you were quoting was not clear to me. It came across
that it
could have been this childs parent. Knowing them, this did not
make any
sense to me
)
) Again, what is your point? I know what kind of a school my son
attends.
I
) never implied it was a conventional school. It does hire
conventional
) academic teachers, however.
) Deby
I made the point because I thought it illustrative that the
"defectors"
chose to "defect" to another alternative school instead of the
standard
public schools here, which are excellent BTW. If this is otherwise
I
didn't get it from your posting. I hold your current school in
high
regard, it was not meant as a criticism.
Since you say you are out of the loop, it might please you to know
that
all current hires are being screened for current public school
teaching
credentials and experience, in addition to WE training. The last
two new
hires fit this criterion and have excellent credentials, both
public and
Waldorf. I am well aware of the difficult time your class had at
this
school. In fact I believe that your response ,leaving, was
rational.
However, things have changed much since then. Our enrollment is
nearly
100% (over 200 students) with a waiting list to get in. Well
qualified
teachers from far and near applied for this years two postings.
The future
is bright for the Yuba River Charter School.
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 24 01:49:52 1997
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Message-Id: (199708240654.XAA04758 lists1.best.com)
From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: School starts
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 23:52:41 -0700
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Walter writes,
)
)I made the point because I thought it illustrative that the
"defectors"
)chose to "defect" to another alternative school instead of the
standard
)public schools here, which are excellent BTW. If this is
otherwise I
)didn't get it from your posting. I hold your current school in
high
)regard, it was not meant as a criticism.
Perhaps because I have one child in mainstream education, and one
in
alternative, it was confusing. FWIW, many parents defected from
the Waldorf
school to alternative _and_ mainstream schools. So far, with no
regrets.
Many of us [former Waldorf parents] have children in both.
)
)Since you say you are out of the loop, it might please you to
know that
)all current hires are being screened for current public school
teaching
)credentials and experience, in addition to WE training.
We had lunch with George Hoffecker in the spring, and he mentioned
that.
That does please me. BTW, George is a warm and wonderful man whom
I
personally like very much.
)The last two new
)hires fit this criterion and have excellent credentials, both
public and
)Waldorf.
What plans are in place for the remaining teachers to get their
state
credentials, Walter? Does the school still use Waldorf curriculum?
I am well aware of the difficult time your class had at this
)school. In fact I believe that your response ,leaving, was
rational.
)However, things have changed much since then. Our enrollment is
nearly
)100% (over 200 students) with a waiting list to get in. Well
qualified
)teachers from far and near applied for this years two postings.
The future
)is bright for the Yuba River Charter School.
Were you on the hiring committee, Walter, or is that what you were
told?
Walter, how involved in the school are you? Do you serve on any
committees?
Do you attend the Charter Council meetings?
I'm so happy that you have relingished your lurker position.
Welcome to the
front lines!
Best,
Deby
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 24 17:06:27 1997
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From: Herman de Tollenaere (hermantl stad.dsl.nl)
Subject: Democracy, organicism and Waldorf (Re: waldorf testing)
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 17:56:43 +0200
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At 04:35 PM 22/8/97 -0500, Cathy Van Maren wrote:
)AUTHOR(S): Henry, Mary E. TITLE: The Symbolic Order of School:
Waldorf
)and College Prep.
)PUBLISHED: 1991
)NOTE: Paper presented at the Annual Meeting of the American
Educational
)Research Association (Chicago, IL, April 4-7, 1991).
)ABSTRACT: [snip] Waldorf school's symbolism about the world sends
a message of
)democratic, egalitarian values in an organic, interdependent
world
I do not want to take issue with Cathy Van Maren's point that some
research
on Waldorf has been done. I also do not want to take issue with
Mary Henry's
paper as a whole, as I know only the abstract; and she (probably)
is not on
this list.
As a historian, I *do* want to take issue with the sentence,
linking
'democratic, egalitarian values' to an organic view of society.
Historically, organic views of society are more often linked to
inequality,
hierarchy, aristocracy, and autocracy.
For this, one may go back to ancient Rome. There, according to
tradition,
the privileged stopped a walkout by plebeians, by saying that the
working
plebeians were the limbs, and the privileged were the stomach of
society;
that each had a different function, both were needed, and that the
plebeians
should not claim equality and democracy.
In conservative Hindu tradition, the Brahmanas (the highest caste)
are made
out of the head of the body of the God Shiva; the lowest caste
people were
made out of Lord Shiva's feet.
Perhaps the best known political philosopher of the twentieth
century
advocating an organic view ('ständische Aufbau') of society,
the Vienna
professor Othmar Spann, was a Nazi party member.
Now, to organic views of society in the occult movement out of
which
Anthroposophy arose: Theosophy. The editorial in 1919 of the
Theosophical
monthly for Indonesia [called Netherlands Indies then] by A. van
Leeuwen
opposed democracy, mass movements for which he saw a threat in
colonial
Indonesia then, from an organic point of view. It compared society
to a
building, with, like a human body, different functions, different
rights,
and different duties. I quote Van Leeuwen here, as translated on
pp. 225-226
of my book The Politics of Divine Wisdom:
Break down all relationships, the masses roll forward like an
unstoppable
tidal wave, threatening to destroy all the results of ages and
ages of work.
Why is this? They did not understand the meaning. They missed the
hierarchical principle in the idea of Brotherhood [proclaimed in
Theosophy].
Not all the same because they are all Brothers, but all in
harmony, and in
harmony between elder and younger ones, between wise and ignorant
ones,
between stronger and weaker brothers. Only then is construction
possible. In
the construction of the temple of humanity there are rafters,
which should
support the roof, there is the foundation, on top of which the
walls arise.
High up there is the golden dome, though, shining in the sunlight,
crowning
the building. Each part has its special place and task, and if
everything
wishes to be as high, if everything wants to be ‘‘roof'', then
......
[...... in original] there is no construction, but everything
stays down.
A half truth [on brotherhood] is worse than no truth at all. ...
Would not
this be the reason why br[other G.]. Arundale [the later
international
Theosophical Society president] advises revealing more of that
which up to
now was esoteric, to show the people and hold before them the
truth of the
existence of the ‘‘Elder Brothers'' [supposedly existing
superhumans in TS
doctrine, like Master Morya, Master Christian Rosencreutz, etc.];
to
proclaim and to propagate as a fact the Hierarchy of beings in
this
Universe, as the ideas of Karma and Reincarnation, which are the
property of
the whole world now, were made known by us earlier on? And is not
it
significant, that also just in these days an important new book
came out:
‘‘Letters from the Masters of the Wisdom'' [according to critics,
Madame
Blavatsky, founder of Theosophy, had been the real author of these
letters],
as if from these Elder Brethren themselves a voice comes, to
witness of
Their existence?
That is what our task is! To accustom the world, including the
Indies
[Indonesian] society, to the concept of ‘‘Hierarchy'', of elder
and younger
ones, also among the earth's Nations and Peoples. A difficult task
indeed in
these times of revolution and democratization, but exactly because
of that a
still more valuable one.
Another Dutch Theosophical leader, Van der Leeuw, Indonesian
coffee and tea
tycoon, wrote a Ph. D thesis on his esoteric political philosophy.
He
advocated so called 'aristo-democracy'; with more aristocracy than
democracy, of course. He based this on seeing society as a human
body; and
human individuals as cells of that body, with cells in one part
differing
from those in other parts. He called striking workers and other
dissidents
'cancer cells', in this perspective.
regards
Herman de Tollenaere
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 24 23:20:37 1997
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From: "Walter Smith" (wesmith oro.net)
Subject: Re: School starts
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 11:57:18 -0700
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----------
) From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
) To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
) Deby asks:
)
) What plans are in place for the remaining teachers to get their
state
) credentials, Walter? Does the school still use Waldorf
curriculum?
I don't know what plans are in place for the remaining teachers to
get
their state credentials. I am all for it though. I personally
believe
that as a state sponsored charter school this should be a minimum
requirement for any teaching post that places the primary Academic
curriculum in the hands of that teacher. In the case of specialty
teachers, e.g.. Language , arts, sports etc. this is less
important in this
milieu (the Charter School). The credential would certainly be an
asset.
Yes the school does use the Waldorf curriculum. However as you
might be
aware, Mr. Hoffecker, the school administrator, is actively
involved in
the process of adapting this curriculum to public application;
both here
and at Rudolph Steiner College. He is progressive as far as
Waldorf
methods are concerned. He comes from a varied background as an
educator
and brings both public and private teaching experience to the job.
By
example; where the thread of opinion in the larger Waldorf
community is to
wait until high school to introduce computers, We now have 6 Mac's
for the
eight grade class to use this year. We are also looking into
getting the
school on line as well.
)
) Were you on the hiring committee, Walter, or is that what you
were told?
) Walter, how involved in the school are you? Do you serve on any
committees?
) Do you attend the Charter Council meetings?
I was not on the hiring committee, but my wife was. I am very
involved in
the school. As you are well aware, as a Charter School parent,
involvement
is practically mandatory. I serve on the Parent Council and on the
future
site committee, as well as putting in many hours towards other
volunteer
activities as well. I am unable to attend Charter Council meetings
due to
the time conflict between my work and these meetings. BTW I am not
an
Anthroposophist. I have read Theosophy and How to Know Higher
Worlds by
RS, as well as several other volumes about RS and WE. So I am not
flying
blind.
Walter
From ??? ??? Sun Aug 24 23:20:43 1997
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Shedding some light on dark
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 22:23:42 -0700
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While this is off topic , I thought it was too good not to share.
I'm
unsure of the author.
Deby
)Would the following be the Steiner view of a common household
item?
)_________________________________________________
)The Dark Sucker Theory
)
)For years, it has been believed that electric bulbs emit light,
but
)recent information has proved otherwise. Electric bulbs
donít emit
)light; they suck dark. Thus, we call these bulbs Dark Suckers.
)
)The Dark Sucker Theory and the existence of dark suckers prove
that dark
)
)has mass and is heavier than light.
)
)First, The basis of The Dark Sucker Theory is that electric bulbs
suck
)dark. For example, like The Dark Sucker in the room you are in,
there is
)
)much less dark right next to it than there is elsewhere. The
larger The
)Dark Sucker, the greater its capacity to suck dark. Dark Suckers
in the
)parking lot have a much greater capacity to suck dark than the
ones in
)this room.
)
)So with all things, Dark Suckers donít last forever. Once
they are full
)of dark, they can no longer suck. This is proven by the dark spot
on a
)full Dark Sucker.
)
)A candle is a primitive Dark Sucker. A new candle has a white
wick. You
)can see that after the first use, the wick turns black,
representing all
)
)the dark that has been sucked into it. If you put a pencil next
to the
)wick of an operating candle, it will turn black. This is because
it got
)in the way of the dark flowing into the candle.
)
)One of the disadvantages of these primitive Dark Suckers is their
)limited range.
)
)There are also portable Dark Suckers. In these, the bulbs
canít handle
)all the dark by themselves and must be aided by a Dark Storage
Unit.
)when The Dark Storage Unit is full, it must be either emptied or
)replaced before the portable Dark Sucker can operate again.
)
)Dark has mass. When dark goes into a Dark Sucker, friction from
the
)mass generates heat. Thus, it is not wise to touch an operating
Dark
)Sucker. Candles present a special problem as the mass must travel
into a
)
)solid wick instead of through clear glass. This generates a great
amount
)
)of heat and therefore itís not wise to touch an operating
candle.
)
)Also, dark is heavier than light. If you were to swim just below
the
)surface of the lake, you would see a lot of light. If you were to
)slowly swim deeper and deeper, you would notice it getting darker
and
)darker. When you get really deep, you would be in total darkness.
This
)is because the heavier dark sinks to the bottom of the lake and
the
)lighter light floats at the top. This is why it is called light.
)
)Finally, we must prove that dark is faster than light. If you
were to
)stand in a lit room in front of a closed, dark closet, and slowly
opened
)
)the closet door, you would see the light slowly enters the
closet. But
)since dark is so fast, you would not be able to see the dark
leave the
)closet.
)
)Next time you see an electric bulb, remember that it is a Dark
Sucker.
)
From ??? ??? Tue Aug 26 01:36:59 1997
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Legal setback for school vouchers
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 16:31:48 -0700
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Sunday, August 24, 1997
Another legal setback for school vouchers
By Rene Sanchez
WASHINGTON POST
A Wisconsin appeals court dealt another blow to the nation's
school-choice
movement Friday,
ruling that a plan to give needy students in Milwaukee publicly
paid
tuition vouchers to attend
religious schools violated the state constitution.
In a case examining one of the most divisive issues in American
education
today, the court
held, 2-1, that Milwaukee's voucher program, which allows 1,600
students to
attend private
schools at state expense, may not be expanded to religious schools
because
that would infringe
on the separation of church and state.
The ruling, which upheld a lower-court decision, was the latest of
several
recent legal
setbacks for voucher advocates. In May, a state appeals court in
Ohio
prevented religious
schools in Cleveland from joining a voucher program.
Voucher opponents said Friday's decision was significant because
it might
persuade other
states to forgo plans to adopt similar programs.
``This decision sends a strong message to the nation that
taxpayers should
not be forced to
support private religious education,'' said Barry Lynn, executive
director
of Americans United
for the Separation of Church and State.
Voucher advocates, who vowed to appeal to Wisconsin's Supreme
Court, called
the defeat minor.
The case in Ohio is headed for that state's Supreme Court.
``This is surely not the final word,'' said Clint Bolick,
litigation
director for the Institute for
Justice, a Washington group that has lent assistance to voucher
cases
across the country. ``. . .
We still think there's solid momentum for school choice in other
courts.''
Those who favor vouchers say that they offer poor parents an
opportunity to
send their children
to better schools and that giving them that choice for the first
time would
create more
competition and force public education to improve.
Opponents fear that even if vouchers were to help a handful of
poor
students, they would inflict
larger harm on public schools by draining them of badly needed
money and
civic support. Plus,
children who do not use vouchers, they argue, might end up
isolated in even
worse classrooms.
Philadelphia Online -- The Philadelphia Inquirer, National --
Copyright Sunday, August 24, 1997
From ??? ??? Wed Aug 27 22:30:45 1997
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: National History
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 17:54:36 -0700
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(x-rich)(fontfamily)(param)Geneva(/param)I am wondering if Waldorf
schools in
the public sector study National history? Students don't generally
study National history in private Waldorf schools, and my son did
not
have National history in the public Waldorf school, but we left
after
5th grade. They could study it in 6th, 7th or 8th.
Walter, this may be a good question for you, being on the Charter
Counsel of Yuba River School.
Thanks,
Deby
(/fontfamily)
(/x-rich)
From ??? ??? Wed Aug 27 22:31:05 1997
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From: litvas icu.com
Subject: Re: National History
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 97 22:02:13 -0400
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On 8/27/97 at 8:54 PM, Deby Snell wrote:
)I am wondering if Waldorf schools in the public sector study
National
)history? Students don't generally study National history in
private
)Waldorf schools, and my son did not have National history in the
public
)Waldorf school, but we left after 5th grade. They could study it
in 6th,
)7th or 8th.
I believe you're in error, Deby. American history is generally
part of
the curriculum in the eighth grade in the private waldorf schools
in this
country.
Robert Flannery
New York
litvas icu.com
From ??? ??? Wed Aug 27 22:31:07 1997
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Re: National History
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 20:16:42 -0700
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(x-rich))On 8/27/97 at 8:54 PM, Deby Snell wrote:
)
))I am wondering if Waldorf schools in the public sector study
National
))history? Students don't generally study National history in
private
))Waldorf schools, and my son did not have National history in the
public
))Waldorf school, but we left after 5th grade. They could study it
in
6th,
))7th or 8th.
)
)I believe you're in error, Deby. American history is generally
part
of
)the curriculum in the eighth grade in the private waldorf schools
in
this
)country.
Thanks for the clarification. I actually read that in an excerpt
from a
school report by Mary Henry, who was comparing Catholic schools to
Waldorf. On closer look, she specifically stated 5-7 grades.
Deby
(fontfamily)(param)Geneva(/param)))))
(excerpt)Significantly, national history is not studied. Such
studies
would be considered nationalistic and against the spirit of
holistic
Waldorf education. Instead, students in grades 5-7 study world
history. A worldwide perspective is undertaken, so that students
can
begin to appreciate their place within a world context. history,
nationalism Henry, 1993, p. 105
(/excerpt)(/fontfamily)(excerpt)
(/excerpt)((((((((
(/x-rich)
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 28 09:01:40 1997
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From: "Walter Smith" (wesmith oro.net)
Subject: Re: National History
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 22:49:09 -0700
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----------
) From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
) (fontfamily)(param)Geneva(/param)I am wondering if Waldorf
schools in
) the public sector study National history? Students don't
generally
) study National history in private Waldorf schools, and my son
did not
) have National history in the public Waldorf school, but we left
after
) 5th grade. They could study it in 6th, 7th or 8th.
)
)
) Walter, this may be a good question for you, being on the
Charter
) Counsel of Yuba River School
Deby:
The copy of the curriculum for the school that I have includes a
rather
sweeping look at the National history of the United States that
occurs in
the eighth grade. There are also curriculum subjects that build-up
to this
over the grades. Starting in the fourth grade there should be a
block on
local history and geography. The purpose of which to establish a
sense of
community and civic place. Fifth grade should cover a geographic
unit on
North America including," memorize the countries, states, and
capitals,
major geographic zones and mountain ranges "etc. etc. thus forming
a base
for further understanding in the sixth grade by doing a
comprehensive new
world geography block. At this time examination of pre-Columbian
civilization and Geography could be considered. Alternatively the
teacher
could focus on the Mediterranean world.
Seventh grade brings the period of 1400-1700. The renaissance, the
age of
discovery, and the Spanish conquest of the New World and the
colonization
of North America.
Eight grade covers the "scientific/Industrial revolution "and
modern
history. As regards U.S. history the goal is to "develop a
foundational
appreciation for American history". It is recommended that "in
addition to
the cultural and political revolutions of the 18th, 19th , and
20th
centuries; special emphasis on the struggle for independence, the
abolitionist and women's rights movements, the Civil War, the
westward
expansion and the civil rights movement are all worthy of
attention. " I
have taken much of this directly or paraphrased from the
curriculum that I
have. It is available to the general public for inspection at the
school
if you would like to stop by there and pick-up a copy.
BTW, a minor correction, I am on the Parent Council, not the
Charter
Council.
Walter
From ??? ??? Thu Aug 28 22:03:17 1997
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From: Deby Snell (snell oro.net)
Subject: Waldorf compromise
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 19:39:56 -0700
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)August 28, 1997
)
)Editor
)Sacramento News & Review
)1015 20th Street
)Sacramento, CA 95814
)
)Dear Editor:
)
)The Waldorf education controversy centers around Waldorf's
connection
)to Anthroposophy, a religion founded by Austrian philosopher
Rudolf
)Steiner ("Waldorf Compromise," SN&R, Aug. 28). Anthroposophy
is a
)spiritual movement based upon the notion that there is an
occultic
)(hidden) spiritual world accessible via higher faculties of
occult
)knowledge. Critics claim Anthroposophy is found in the Waldorf
)curriculum.
)
)While acknowledging the many positive testimonials of parents,
)educators and children regarding the Waldorf education
methodology,
)serious concerns have been identified. Anthroposophy, which is
clearly
)religious in nature, serves as the foundation for Waldorf
educational
)theory and practice, leading former Waldorf teacher M.C. Richards
to
)state, "One could say that Waldorf education has a hidden agenda.
Its
)curriculum is described in terms common to public schools in
general:
)arithmetic, writing, reading . . . But in Steiner schools the
dimensions of
)these subjects are threefold: they are artistic, cognitive and
religious."
)
)The courts have determined that the state may not design or
modify a
)curriculum of its schools in order to further religion at the
expense of
)non-religion or to further one set of religious beliefs over
others. Thus,
)Waldorf education may well violate the Establishment Clause of
the First
)Amendment as well as portions of the California Constitution. The
claim
)of the Sacramento City schools chief that Waldorf education is
"legal and
)educationally sound" is unfounded. The legality of Waldorf is
open to
)question in the courts and no formal pedagogical studies have
been
)conducted to confirm the soundness of Waldorf educational theory
and
)practice. Testimonials from Waldorf supporters are merely
anecdotal.
)Merely moving the school district's Waldorf magnet program does
not
)address these key questions.
)
)TruthQuest Institute, along with PLANS and concerned parents and
)educators, renews its request to the State Board of Education to
)conduct a formal investigation into the educational soundness of
Waldorf
)and the question of the legality of federal and state tax dollars
supporting
)religious education.
)
)Sincerely,
)
)John W. Morehead
)Executive Vice President
)TruthQuest Institute
From ??? ??? Mon Sep 01 01:30:22 1997
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: concerns about waldorf schools
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 19:15:01 -0700
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Dear Eddie, I am continuing this dialogue, and copying it to the
waldorf-critids list.
)) Van: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
)) Aan: ewmeer worldaccess.nl; waldorf-critics lists.best.com
)) Onderwerp: concerns about waldorf schools
)) Datum: zaterdag 19 april 1997 6:30
))
)) Eddie van der Meer wrote to PLANS,
))
)) VAN DER MEER
)Thank you very much for your kind and prompt responce, it realy
helpt me
)somewhat further down the line. I hope you'll excuse my tereble
english.
))
)) DUGAN
)) We agree about the fundamentalism. However, I don't think it's
possible
)to
)) have the "reform Waldorf" that you seek.
VAN DER MEER
)In this aspect you are right. It is not possible to have a reform
Waldorf.
)What we can achive is to take out wat is wrong and keep what's
right. We
)are not contolled by any coverning body.
)
)The only reason why I chose for waldorf education is the fact
that they
)turn down any kind of governing, but let the children react to
the
)materials they are presented with. And as a parent I'm very alert
to
)prevent indoctrination of any kind (including antroposophy) to
get into
)their systems. The only way I can is to have discussions with
people like
)you. for wich,again, I'm very greatfull.
DUGAN
I don't think that it is possible to "let the children react to
the
materials they are presented with" and "prevent indoctrination of
any kind"
when the teachers are trained and continously reminded that
everything they
do must be in accordance with Anthropsophical principles.
)) DUGAN
)) In my view, the only reason that Anthroposophy and Waldorf
schools are
)) -not- commonly known as a cult-like religious sect is their own
insistent
)) statements to the contrary. Historically, Anthroposophy results
from a
)) sectarian doctrinal dispute within Theosophy, after which
Steiner split
)off
)) the German section to form his own cult.
VAN DER MEER
)This seperation was in the late 1800 or beginning 1900 ? don't
you think
)vieuws and insights have changed ?. i.e. would it be possible
that the
)waldorf school in particular have evolved with the time. I do
believe, like
)you, that the pure dogmatic athroposofic statements Steiner gave
,have to
)be set in their own time, and have ot be "translated" in to
today's
)insights. Something, I again have to agree, the "pure" are not
able to do.
DUGAN
It was in 1911-1912. If Anthroposophy were, as it claims to be, a
system of
inquiry, then by now it and Waldorf education certainly would have
changed
greatly. The fact that neither has changed significantly in 78
years is
evidence for the dogmatic and cult-like nature of Anthroposophy.
DUGAN
)) You have already become aware of the "closed" nature of the
system, i.e.
)) only referring to works of Steiner or other Anthroposophical
authors.
)Some
)) other cult-like characteristics are:
))
)) Clinging to rejected knowledge. (Alchemy, Newton was wrong, the
heart is
)) not a pump.)
VAN DER MEER
)You have to exuse me , if I decline these statements. In todays
waldorf
)schools modern Biologie is tought, Modern fisics are explored,
and a