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From ??? ??? Thu Feb 01 10:02:41 1996
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Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 00:17:22 -0700
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: WCA Sources of inspiration
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Dick said,
>Just another example of an experienced Waldorf teacher thinking for herself
>and drawing from a wide variety others' insights. (This is a different
>teacher than the one who's essays on Piaget I mentioned in another thread.)
Yes, if it weren't for the good teachers, who manage to take the
inspiration and ignore the nonsense, Waldorf would be worthless. But isn't
it ironic that it's those who stray from the system who do better work?
-Dan Dugan
From ??? ??? Thu Feb 01 10:02:44 1996
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Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 00:17:30 -0700
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: WCA Hitler vs Steiner
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Dick said,
>Points on which Hitler and Steiner AGREED:
>
>1. There are differences between races.
>2. The word "Aryan" means "original race".
Well, if you ignore most of what Steiner said about race, you could believe
that this was all.
>Points on which Hitler and Steiner disagreed:
>
>All others.
I wish this were true. But it would be helpful to enumerate the important
ones. One really important difference was that Steiner's system has people
reincarnating in successively higher races, whereas the Nazi's system is
based on purity of blood.
-Dan Dugan
From ??? ??? Thu Feb 01 10:02:51 1996
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Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 00:17:38 -0700
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: WCA Re: quoting Steiner
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Dick, you quoted me,
>Dan Dugan writes:
>
>>I'm sure my interpretations are biased. I don't believe Steiner.
>
>I'm amazed that anyone could read 40 volumes of ANY author, and not find
>many things that one "believes," as well as many things that one
>"disbelieves."
>
>Dan, you must have an amazingly strong determination not to "believe"
>Steiner, yet an equally strong fascination with him. I must admit that I
>genuinely wonder what sequence of personal events could have left you in
>such a state. I don't mean this to sound critical--in fact, I think it shows
>an admirably strong will and a certain sort of equally admirable integrity.
>It's your emotional motivation that is so mysterious!
Dick, I don't believe the central premise, that Steiner had access to
special knowledge. When that falls, most of what he wrote is either
derivative from Blavatsky and other occultists, or fanciful nonsense of his
own.
My original motivation was anger at having been refused permission to speak
to the college of teachers (I guess a parent isn't important enough) and
being told on pain of expulsion of my son that though I didn't have to
believe in Anthroposophy, I must not discuss it critically at the school. I
channeled this anger and frustration into a study of why these people were
so cult-like. Given the complexity of the subject, it has led me into years
of reading not only of Steiner and other cult books, but of a wide range of
philosophy as well, for I can't just be against something, I have to know
what I'm for. It's turned into a mentally stimulating hobby, great dinner
conversation, and I hope a good book will come out of it in the not too
distant future (before Ahriman himself shows up, I hope ).
-Dan Dugan
From ??? ??? Thu Feb 01 10:02:47 1996
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Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 00:17:46 -0700
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: WCA the swastika
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Dick, you quoted me (Dan),
>>I don't believe in spirits, but I'm sure that viewed from the
>>Anthroposophical perspective I should be considered an agent of Ahriman.
>
>For those that may not be familiar with the term, "Ahrimanic" is an
>adjective used to describe someone who is completely cold and dry, with no
>emotions or sense of humor, and utterly unable to experience inspiration or
>love. "Ahriman" is a name for what a person would be if they were actually
>like this.
Dick, you must know that cold and dry are just Ahriman's qualities.
"Ahriman" isn't "a name for what a person would be," he is one of the three
principal gods in Steiner's hagiography. I interpret his position as
corresponding to God the Father in the traditional trinity ("Father
principle" or "Jehovah principle").
>One of Steiner's more controversial "spiritual scientific
>observations" was that there would be an actual human being on Earth with
>these qualities--and only these qualities--sometime in the 21st (or maybe
>even late 20th) century. He suggested that this person might garner quite a
>religous following and cause a lot of trouble.
Steiner was vague about this, but if the numeric symmetry Steiner is so
fond of prevails, Ahriman's incarnation would be some time into the 21st
century (symmetrical about Christ's incarnation with Lucifer's incarnation
in ancient China). But there are Anthroposophical authors who place this
prophecy sooner. Stephen, what's your take on this issue?
>Why Dan thinks he should be like that is beyond me, spirits or no spirits.
>The idea that an "agent of Ahriman" would have much of value to say about
>education strikes me as pretty unlikely.
My understanding is that Ahriman makes very convincing arguments, and his
following is increasing. I suspect that the Solar Temple suicide/murderers,
who seemed to have a lot in common with Anthroposophy, departed together
with the intention of reincarnating together in a later time after the hard
times they expect to come soon have passed.
>Fortunately, I don't think Dan is living up to this "ideal"! (Dry enough,
>perhaps, but much too hot. )
Yes, in Anthroposophical terms I balance my Ahrimanic rationality with
Luciferic intensity! Maybe it's a beneficial effect of my Christian
education. :)
-Dan Dugan
From ??? ??? Thu Feb 01 10:04:23 1996
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Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:23:55 -0500 (EST)
From: JoAnn Schwartz
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
Subject: Re: (from Lefty) Re: WCA the swastika
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Lefty wrote:
> [snip] The swastika is still
> used, by the way, by Tibetan Buddhists.[snip]
I know from experience that it is also used by Japanese Buddhists, and on
many Japanese maps a swastika is used to mark the location of a Buddhist
temple. Gave me more than a bit of a start when I first saw this in 1980!
Back to lurker mode--
JoAnn Schwartz, Detroit MI
From ??? ??? Thu Feb 01 10:04:56 1996
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Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:10:22 -0800
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: lefty apple.com (Lefty)
Subject: Re: WCA Sources of inspiration
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Dan Dugan writes
>Dick said,
>
>>Just another example of an experienced Waldorf teacher thinking for herself
>>and drawing from a wide variety others' insights. (This is a different
>>teacher than the one who's essays on Piaget I mentioned in another thread.)
>
>Yes, if it weren't for the good teachers, who manage to take the
>inspiration and ignore the nonsense, Waldorf would be worthless. But isn't
>it ironic that it's those who stray from the system who do better work?
I suspect that, if you were to ask the teacher, you wouldn't hear that she
feels she is "straying from the system", simply citing sopurces which
corroborate or amplify existing practice. There is nothing that I'm aware
of in Waldorf pedagogy that excludes the use of resources other than
Steiner. Nor is there any reason to believe that, to the extent that it
draws from existing practice, Waldorf schooling is "worthless". Your _Der
Spiegel_ article seems to make that pretty clear. You're simply
reiterating Daniel Sabsay's "second-class education" assertion, which you
specifically said you would retract, Dan.
--
Lefty [gYon-Pa]
C:.M:.C:., D:.O:.D:.
From ??? ??? Thu Feb 01 18:42:18 1996
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Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 14:02:57 -0800
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: lefty apple.com (Lefty)
Subject: Re: WCA the swastika
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Dan Dugan writes
>
>"Ahriman" isn't "a name for what a person would be," he is one of the three
>principal gods in Steiner's hagiography. I interpret his position as
>corresponding to God the Father in the traditional trinity ("Father
>principle" or "Jehovah principle").
This is such a thoroughly astounding misreading of what Steiner asserts
that I can scarcely do more than goggle in disbelief at it. I'm tempted to
ask if you're absolutely certain that it's Steiner you've been reading.
Ahriman isn't a god, "principal" or otherwise; nor is Ahriman equivalent to
Jehovah (or "Jahve" as he is referred to in Steiner's writings).
>My understanding is that Ahriman makes very convincing arguments, and his
>following is increasing. I suspect that the Solar Temple suicide/murderers,
>who seemed to have a lot in common with Anthroposophy, departed together
>with the intention of reincarnating together in a later time after the hard
>times they expect to come soon have passed.
Sigh. Innuendo alert. I haven't seen anything to suggest that the Order
of the Solar Temple has anything at all to do with, or any similarites to,
anthroposophy. Apparently, they fancied themselves the inheritors of the
tradition of the Knights Templar and drew some inspiration from the
Cathars. Nor has anthroposophy been implicated in murders or suicides.
I'd like you to justify this assertion or retract it.
It's entirely unclear what any of this has to do with Waldorf schooling.
--
Lefty [gYon-Pa]
C:.M:.C:., D:.O:.D:.
From ??? ??? Sat Feb 10 23:55:47 1996
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date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 16:27:41 -0600
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: Dick Oliver
subject: Re: WCA Sources of inspiration
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>But isn't
>it ironic that it's those who stray from the system who do better work?
By "the system", I gather you mean the loosely affiliated hodgepodge of
thousands of Waldorf educators, associated mostly through a common view of
education and not much else. If you can tell who's "stray" and who's not,
you're doing better than most.
Or, if by "the system" you mean the original groundwork done in Stuttgart by
the faculty of the first Waldorf school, then the most consistent "dogma"
Steiner emphasized was that every teacher was *obligated* to "stray from the
system" and recreate a unique educational experience from their own thoughts
and hearts.
Either way, the irony has somehow escaped me.
--Dick Oliver ----------
Cedar Science Center
Wolcott, Vermont USA
From ??? ??? Thu Feb 01 18:42:13 1996
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Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 16:27:43 -0600
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: Dick Oliver
Subject: Re: WCA the swastika
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>Dick, you must know that cold and dry are just Ahriman's qualities.
>"Ahriman" isn't "a name for what a person would be," he is one of the three
>principal gods in Steiner's hagiography. I interpret his position as
>corresponding to God the Father in the traditional trinity ("Father
>principle" or "Jehovah principle").
We're drifting pretty far from the topic of Waldorf schools, but I think
some discussion here should clarify a lot about anthroposphy vs. Duganosophy.
Steiner was a Christian. He believed quite firmly in "Jehovah" (though he
didn't use that spelling) and indicated quite clearly that the spiritual
being Ahriman was the exact _opposite_ of Jehovah. He also clearly indicated
that Ahriman was NOT a "god" at all, but precisely the being whose
consciousness embodies the qualities I described.
I personally do not know whether such a consciousness actually exists, nor
do I know if the "creator consciousness" referred to as Jehovah exists.
These are not currently "incarnate" in any physical human being's brain, so
if you believe (through some sort of knowledge that escapes me) that
consciousness cannot exist independent of such a physical association, then
you should logically conclude that neither Ahriman nor Jehovah nor any other
"spiritual beings" (other than humans) exist.
But one does not need to believe in the existance of these beings to
understand quite clearly what they "would be" if they did exist. As mythical
story characters, their personalities are very easy to imagine. So even a
materialist like you, Dan, should be able to understand what the adjective
"Ahrimanic" describes.
The fact that you can somehow pervert Steiner's writings to assign the
qualities of cold, dusty lovelessness to the "father of Christ" shows that
you have gleaned almost no understanding whatsoever from your readings of
Steiner--or mainstream Christianity, for that matter.
I suspect that the association in your mind came from Steiner's association
of Ahriman with the separation of the physical from the spiritual, and
Jehovah's association with the creation of the physical out of the
spiritual. I'm not going to try explaining all this, but let it suffice to
say that you missed the point, big time.
Or perhaps you "reasoned" that Christians talk about a trinity of Godliness,
and Steiner talks about two ways to be bad and one way to be good, so since
2+1=3, then the Catholic trinity must be the same thing Steiner was babbling
about, and that must mean that Steiner's two kinds of badness must be the
same thing as the Catholics' two kinds of goodness. (Or something like that.
Alas, the mind of Dan works in mysterious ways... )
Perhaps you can enlighten the less clear-sighted among us by sharing your
"insights" on how all this affects Waldorf education. (I can hardly wait...)
--Dick Oliver ----------
Cedar Science Center
Wolcott, Vermont USA
From ??? ??? Thu Feb 01 18:42:10 1996
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Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 16:27:49 -0600
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: Dick Oliver
Subject: Re: WCA Franck to Ed. Week re Dugan
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>You're saying that we shouldn't teach what we know about the structure of
>matter because there's unsolved mysteries in it? No way.
No, I'm saying we don't even have the option anymore of teaching what we
know about the structure of matter. I'm an advocate for teaching the history
of science in explicit detail, and teaching current theories as soon as kids
have the math to understand them (like, in graduate school ).
Newtonian theories of light are taught in all Waldorf high schools
_as_history_of_science_, which is all they are. Though, like almost all
subjects, history is taught through experience (and, in science, experiment)
rather than simply as a distant narrative.
>IMHO good science teaching includes
>how to observe, understanding theories, and wonder.
We agree on those three. The Goethean approach attempts to include not only
how to observe the phenomenon under study, but how to observe the observer
doing the studying. I'm actually not a strong advocate for too much Goethean
stuff--I think it's more important for the teacher to be aware of than the
students, actually.
--Dick Oliver ----------
Cedar Science Center
Wolcott, Vermont USA
From ??? ??? Thu Feb 01 18:42:25 1996
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Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 17:33:12 -0500
From: Lee Story USG
Message-Id: <9602012233.AA12198 tlaser.zk3.dec.com>
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
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Subject: Re: WCA Franck to Ed. Week re Dugan
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Dick Oliver writes:
> [....] I'm actually not a strong advocate for too much Goethean
> stuff--I think it's more important for the teacher to be aware of than the
> students, actually.
Dick, I think you inadvertently pressed one of my hot buttons. Isn't
it the job of a teacher to teach the entirety of what he knows or
surmises, so long as it is related to the subject which the student
has enrolled to learn? Under what circumstances would the most
original and unique part of Goethe's scientific method not be taught
(your context being "history of science", not just what's appropriate
for first or second graders)?
There's a larger subject here, isn't there? It seems that Waldorf
education utterly renounces "teach it as soon and as thoroughly as the
individual student is ready to deal with it" (which I'd thought was
the best general rule obtainable amid such diversity of learning
capability). Instead, doesn't it sometimes (surely not always) favor
what I'd call rules of thumb, e.g. that reading "should" start around
eight, that logical analytical subjects "should" start at twelve, etc?
This sort of "cookbook" attitude has always gotten my dander up; I
don't attribute it to any sort of venal occultism, just to people who
want easy answers to difficult questions...
Cheers, --lee
From ??? ??? Thu Feb 01 18:42:45 1996
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From: IReadRudy aol.com
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 18:48:49 -0500
Message-ID: <960201184847_133456677 emout09.mail.aol.com>
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
cc: vwsetzer ime.usp.br
Subject: Re: (from Val) Re: WCA the swastika
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Dear Val,
I will sorely miss you on this List. I am sure I am not alone! This List
needs your sense of fairness and compassion and your wealth of knowledge to
guide it.
Have you heard of peat fabric computer bibs? I use mine when I work on the
computer to protect my heart from these frequently senseless ragings. The
Rudolf Steiner Bookstore in Fair Oaks, California, USA sold them as of last
summer.
Warmly,
Rise Smythe-Freed
Anthroposophical Nursing
From ??? ??? Thu Feb 01 18:42:42 1996
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From: IReadRudy aol.com
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 18:49:04 -0500
Message-ID: <960201184903_133456459 mail06.mail.aol.com>
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
Subject: WCA Achim Leschinsky
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In a message dated 96-01-31 21:43:32 EST, you write:
>Has anyone read Achim Leschinsky's article about the Waldorf schools during
>the Nazi period?
Elaborate, please. How does one obtain it?
Warmly,
Rise Smythe-Freed
From ??? ??? Thu Feb 01 18:42:39 1996
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From: IReadRudy aol.com
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 18:49:14 -0500
Message-ID: <960201184912_133456623 mail06.mail.aol.com>
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
Subject: WCA Debate or Duel?
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In a message dated 96-01-31 23:13:28 EST, Lefty writes:
>It seems that this list has gotten very quiet lately. I can't help but
>wonder what the other Waldorf critics make of all this.
Dear Dan, Lefty, Lee, Dick, Suzanne and Interested Others,
Who can get a word in edge-wise? A very small group dominates; Lee, Dan,
Lefty and Dick (whose postings, on this and other related lists, I truly
enjoy). Suzanne made some excellent observations a few weeks ago and was
thrashed for her trouble. The tone on the list is one up_man_ship (Note
I've underlined Man). OK... I am NOT going to get into any Male-Female
stuff.
Why can't we all just be nice to one another? I tell this to my children
daily. We are adults. I'm sure we can handle the responsibility. I am put
off by the attacks on others. Val has a heart problem. It is known in
Anthroposophical Medicine that sitting and typing (computer sort of work)
excacerbates heart problems. Instead of acknowledging a subscribers trouble,
or in this case , one of Dan's opponents, Dan, you say, "If the heats too
hot... " Shame on you!
Dan, your tone from the postings of today (So far...) are much improved.
Thank you.
Warmly,
Rise Smythe-Freed
From ??? ??? Thu Feb 01 18:42:54 1996
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Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 19:19:48 -0500
Message-Id: <9602020019.AA08784 handel.jlc.net>
Subject: Re: WCA Indian Scripture
From: Neil Faiman
To:
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Suzanne Lainson asks:
>I took a course in Eastern religions in college and and I recall, I found
>some of the Indian texts rather tough reading. Do students in Waldorf
>schools read translations of the originals, or do they study simplified
>versions?
In my daughter's class experience -- and I believe that this is pretty
universally true in Waldorf schools -- Indian mythology/scripture would
be taught the same way as all the other traditions covered over the
years: that is, the teacher endeavors to steep himself/herself in the
material,
and then presents it orally to the class. The result undoubtedly is a
blend of the original material,
the teacher's priorities, and his/her judgment of what in the material
best meets the needs of
the class.
Regards,
Neil Faiman
From ??? ??? Fri Feb 02 01:36:29 1996
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Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 22:00:22 -0700
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: slainson rmii.com (Suzanne Lainson)
Subject: WCA History of Ideas/Great Books
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I am curious what everyone thinks of the "Great Books" approach to
education and how it compares to Waldorf.
As an undergraduate in coolege I was in an honors program that was based on
the Great Books (it was an additional class, not my entire study program).
I think we got through to the 19th century before the program changed and
we could take more contemporary subjects.
We started with prehistory and the Old Testament and worked our way up
through all the major philosophers. I guess it was good background, but I
retained virtually nothing of it. For example, I studied Aquinas and
Augustine, but couldn't tell you the difference these days.
I've met several people who attended St, John's Univesity, which is based
totally on the Great Books. They were interesting folks, but a bit like
monks, off in their own world.
And one of my daughters was in a children's version of the Great Books--I
guess based on fairy tales and the like. It was something I encouraged her
to do, but I'm not sure how much she got out of it.
Anyway, I've had a nodding acquaintance with programs that take students
through learning as it was developed in Western Civilization. While I
certainly applaud the idea and would encourage anyone who wanted to take
that approach to do so, I'm not sure if I'd say it is a particularly
dynamic education.
You know, on the other hand, a classic that I think all students should
study is the Federalist Papers. Now that I really think is valuable to
understanding America. Maybe I found it more interesting because the debate
between two philosophies was being conducted simultaneously rather than
over generations.
Suzanne
Suzanne Lainson SportsTrust Integrated Marketing
slainson rmii.com P.O. Box 2071 Sports and Event Marketing
303 473-9884 Boulder, CO 80306 Online Marketing
From ??? ??? Fri Feb 02 19:36:55 1996
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Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 01:35:21 -0700
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: WCA the swastika
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Lefty, you quoted me,
>>Blavatsky's "seven
>>root races" mythology is the framework for the study of history in Waldorf
>>schools.
>
>May or may not be. What the children study, in terms of history, is a
>series of civilizations: Indian, Persian, Hebrew, European, etc. I don't
>think there's much of a case to be made that these choices are unworthy of
>study. Nor is the existence of these civilizations a myth. Since Dan has
>not shown any concept of "root races", Aryan or otherwise, in the
>classroom, it's not clear to me what the relevance of this is.
Excuse me, that's not an arbitrary series of civilizations, it's the root-races.
>>After the war, Anthroposophical publishers bowldlerized "Sub-Race" to
>>"cultural era" and "Aryan Epoch" to "Post-Atlantean Epoch." But there's so
>>much Steiner literature that they weren't able to clean it all up. Of
>>course "Aryan race" jumps right off the page, and once the code is known,
>>it's all over the place.
>
>Dan seems to be having some sort of Pavlovian reaction to the word "Aryan".
>I guess his reasoning runs along lines something like this: "Blavatsky
>used the word 'Aryan'. Steiner used the word 'Aryan'. Hitler used the
>word 'Aryan', and was a racist. Therefore, Steiner is a racist."
Sure it's Pavlovian. It's one of the lessons of the holocaust: the concept
of Aryan superiority is anathema forever. Steiner didn't just use the word,
he helped establish the concept.
>In the quote which Dan produced, there doesn't appear to be any assertion
>of inferiority or superiority of one "sub-race" over another. Instead, it
>seems to simply describe a sequence of cultures. I frankly don't see the
>glaring evidence of racism here which Dan appears to.
Steiner taught that individual souls "evolved" through reincarnation in
higher and higher races. In spots he's unfortunately quite specific about
the inferiority of the "left over" races. Combining this "left over" with
the Anthroposophical concept of evil as something in the wrong time is
chilling.
>>My mention the swastika in our Free Inquiry article (co-written with Judy
>>Daar) would have been a cheap shot, if it weren't for the fact that there
>>*are* connections with proto-Nazi mythology.
>
>It was, without doubt, an exceedingly cheap shot: the connections are
>extremely tenuous. Let's keep in mind, for instance, that the Nazis also
>expropriated Nietzsche's concept of the _uebermensch_, as well as much of
>the content of Wagner's Ring Cycle, for their own purposes, and put them to
>uses which their authors certainly didn't intend: these could be equally
>well characterized as "proto-Nazi mythology". Notwithstanding the fact
>that you haven't demonstrated that Steiner's concept of "sub-race" enters
>the classroom, would you say that a class which studied Nietzsche or
>listened to the _Niebelungenlied_ was founded on racist underpinnings?
I sure give Wagner a share of the responsibility, too. Note that the
Parsifal legend is holy writ in Waldorf schools. Regarding Nietzsche,
Steiner obviously got a lot from him. I've heard N's thought was seriously
misrepresented, going into the Nazi period. I don't think it would be
responsible to teach Wagner or Nietszsche without touching on the Nazi
issue.
>This is an important subject to me, not least because I happen to be the
>father of a biracial child in a Waldorf school. Interestingly enough, the
>proportion of minority children in my child's class exceeds the proportion
>in the general population of the United States, and significantly exceed
>the ratio in the local area. So, I'd like to know, in specific terms, how
>these racist tendencies are supposed to show up in the classroom. Which
>children are identified as superior, which inferior? How does this
>intrinsic racism manifest itself? Clearly it isn't making an appearance in
>the admissions process. I'd also be interested in an explanation of why so
>many American Waldorf schools have major multicultural and
>diversity-related initiatives. Our school hands out a number of full
>scholarships under its multicultural , and just staged a sold-out benefit
>concert featuring the a capella group _Sweet Honey in the Rock_ with
>proceeds going to the multicultural scholarship fund. I'm having a
>difficult time seeing this endemic and structural racism.
>
>So, where is it, Dan?
In two separate incidents, I have been contacted by Waldorf parents upset
with attitudes about the children's racial backgrounds that their children
received from their teacher. These attitudes were consistent with Steiner's
racist statements in books Waldorf teacher trainees are required to study.
This was not discrimination against the children so much as it was "karmic"
explanations of their personalities based on their heritage which were
percieved to be discriminatory. I am sure this represents a very small
minority of Waldorf teachers, but then again, only a tiny minority of
disgruntled parents will have seen my writings or will contact the Cult
Awareness Network, so the extent of the possible problems is unknown. The
corruption will always be there as they study more Steiner during their
careers, and become more committed to the belief that Steiner's
pronouncements are some kind of special knowledge.
If were only in the books on the shelf I would still campaign against it.
-Dan
From ??? ??? Fri Feb 02 19:37:02 1996
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Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 01:35:39 -0700
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: WCA peat fiber bibs
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Rise, you said,
>Have you heard of peat fabric computer bibs? I use mine when I work on the
>computer to protect my heart from these frequently senseless ragings. The
>Rudolf Steiner Bookstore in Fair Oaks, California, USA sold them as of last
>summer.
You are the victim of a consumer fraud. Peat fabric bibs have no health
benefit except perhaps to shade one's self from the sun at the beach.
The advertisement I have reads, in part:
"In investigating the composition of peat figers, scientists have
discovered that the water-retaining elements of peat closely resemble
endogenous melanin, the pigment that the human organism forms under the
skin to protect itself against the effects of radiation. Clothing made from
peat fibers can envelop and protect the body, fortify the warmth organism,
and contribute to protecting life forces against the influences of
radiation."
-Dan Dugan
From ??? ??? Fri Feb 02 19:37:05 1996
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Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 01:35:46 -0700
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: WCA Achim Leschinsky
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Rise, you asked,
>>Has anyone read Achim Leschinsky's article about the Waldorf schools during
>>the Nazi period?
>
>Elaborate, please. How does one obtain it?
The article is:
Leschinsky, Achim. *Waldorfschulen im Nationalsozialismus*. "Neue
Sammlung," Vol. 83, 1983, p. 255.
A couple of years ago I commissioned a translation for $300, but the job
was poorly done and incomplete, so it isn't publishable. I've contacts with
some (hopefully) better translators, but can't afford to do it right now.
I am in contact with Leschinsky in East Berlin. He says there were Waldorf
responses,
Leber, S. and Leist, M.: *Waldorfschule im Nationalsozialismus*.
"Erziehungskunst" XLVII (1983), H. 6, S.341-351
also "Erziehungskunst" XLVII (1983) H. 7/8, S.409-418, revised version in
Neue Sammlung, Heft 1.
and that he also wrote a reply. I've asked him to send me all the articles.
Sincerely, Dan
From ??? ??? Fri Feb 02 19:37:12 1996
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Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 01:35:53 -0700
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: WCA unholy trinity tangent (no thread please)
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Lefty quoted me (Dan),
>>"Ahriman" isn't "a name for what a person would be," he is one of the three
>>principal gods in Steiner's hagiography. I interpret his position as
>>corresponding to God the Father in the traditional trinity ("Father
>>principle" or "Jehovah principle").
and Lefty commented
>This is such a thoroughly astounding misreading of what Steiner asserts
>that I can scarcely do more than goggle in disbelief at it. I'm tempted to
>ask if you're absolutely certain that it's Steiner you've been reading.
>Ahriman isn't a god, "principal" or otherwise; nor is Ahriman equivalent to
>Jehovah (or "Jahve" as he is referred to in Steiner's writings).
Well, I call Lucifer and Ahrmian gods, sorry if that isn't
Anthroposophically correct. You must admit Lucifer-Christ-Ahriman is a
trinity Steiner talks about all the time. I admit that drawing a
correspondence between Jehovah and Ahriman is speculative, Steiner never
says that directly.
My reasons for so speculating are: 1) Everything Steiner does is in sets of
numbers, polarities, threefolds, fourfolds, etc. If there's a gap I infer
it's someting he doesn't want to talk about. He makes a pretty obvious
correspondence between Lucifer and the Holy Spirit; so with Christ staying
in the middle that leaves the Ahriman spot for God the Father. 2) A South
African Anthroposophical writer, who blurts out things that aren't p.c. in
Europe and America, used the term "Jehovah Ahriman." 3) Steiner draws
connections between Ahriman and the Moon, and Jehovah and the Moon.
If we were drinking together, we might pursue this, but it's off topic here
and I apologize to everybody for bringing it up.
-Dan
From ??? ??? Fri Feb 02 19:37:09 1996
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Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 01:36:01 -0700
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: WCA Solar temple tangent (no thread, please)
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Lefty, you quoted me (Dan),
>>I suspect that the Solar Temple suicide/murderers,
>>who seemed to have a lot in common with Anthroposophy, departed together
>>with the intention of reincarnating together in a later time after the hard
>>times they expect to come soon have passed.
and Lefty commented:
>Sigh. Innuendo alert. I haven't seen anything to suggest that the Order
>of the Solar Temple has anything at all to do with, or any similarites to,
>anthroposophy. Apparently, they fancied themselves the inheritors of the
>tradition of the Knights Templar and drew some inspiration from the
>Cathars. Nor has anthroposophy been implicated in murders or suicides.
>I'd like you to justify this assertion or retract it.
I wondered at first if they were an Anthroposophical faction; the few
details given in the press sounded like it. Did anyone besides me notice
that the murder/suicides both took place on nights of the new moon? I
suspect Luc Jouret was an occult lore synthesizer like Steiner, and may
have ripped off some of Rudy's stuff. If anyone knows of any serious
analysis that has been done of the Jouret cult I would be very interested
in seeing it. I inquired after his books but came up empty.
In any case, I think there's a lesson there about believing in
reincarnation too seriously.
and Lefty, you said,
>It's entirely unclear what any of this has to do with Waldorf schooling.
It doesn't, I'm sorry, I went off on a tangent again. I'll try to be more
focussed.
-Dan
P.S. Well, there was one murder, actually. A disgruntled devotee shot the
elder Unger to death. And then there's the eyewitness story that Steiner
was poisoned at a reception...
-dD-
From ??? ??? Fri Feb 02 19:37:56 1996
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From: IReadRudy aol.com
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 10:56:28 -0500
Message-ID: <960202105627_412826349 emout08.mail.aol.com>
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
Subject: Re: WCA peat fiber bibs
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In a message dated 96-02-02 04:35:12 EST, Dan Dugan writes:
>
>Rise, you said,
>
>>Have you heard of peat fabric computer bibs? I use mine when I work on the
>>computer to protect my heart from these frequently senseless ragings. The
>>Rudolf Steiner Bookstore in Fair Oaks, California, USA sold them as of last
>>summer.
>
>You are the victim of a consumer fraud. Peat fabric bibs have no health
>benefit except perhaps to shade one's self from the sun at the beach.
>
>The advertisement I have reads, in part:
>
>"In investigating the composition of peat figers, scientists have
>discovered that the water-retaining elements of peat closely resemble
>endogenous melanin, the pigment that the human organism forms under the
>skin to protect itself against the effects of radiation. Clothing made from
>peat fibers can envelop and protect the body, fortify the warmth organism,
>and contribute to protecting life forces against the influences of
>radiation."
>
>-Dan Dugan
Dear Dan,
And you, sir, seem to be a victim as well. The advertisement you cite is
accurate. I use my peat bib to protect myself from the effects of the
computer screen. The act of typing is not good for the heart, either, but
Val was spending long hours in the glow of the screen while he was
keyboarding.
Dan, I notice several folks on the WC find you maddening or irritating or
some other adjective. I find you all of those and endearing as well. But
truly, Dan, you can't
possibly believe your 'science' is complete. Can you prove with your
science that peat bibs do not work?
Warmly,
Rise Smythe-Freed
Anthroposophical Nursing
From ??? ??? Fri Feb 02 19:38:00 1996
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From: IReadRudy aol.com
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 10:57:12 -0500
Message-ID: <960202105711_412826408 mail02.mail.aol.com>
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
Subject: Re: WCA unholy trinity tangent (no thread please)
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In a message dated 96-02-02 04:35:44 EST, you write:
>If we were drinking together, we might pursue this, but it's off topic here
>and I apologize to everybody for bringing it up.
>
>
Dear Dan,
Ahaa!!! Drinking, that's it! I wondered how you came to all your
conclusions!
Warmly,
Rise Smythe-Freed
From ??? ??? Fri Feb 02 19:38:03 1996
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Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 11:05:29 -0600
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: Dick Oliver
Subject: Re: WCA Franck to Ed. Week re Dugan
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>Isn't
>it the job of a teacher to teach the entirety of what he knows or
>surmises, so long as it is related to the subject which the student
>has enrolled to learn?
Good heavens, no! More often than not, the teachers always knows far, far
more than any child could possibly understand or digest (until the child
gets to be the teacher's age). The teacher's job is to find the most
essential and important stuff, and reframe it in a way that speaks directly
and clearly to the child's current needs and state of development. Better
yet, help the child _discover_ the knowledge for themselves, so they may
gain knowledge that perhaps the teacher didn't even have.
This is a central point in Waldorf education that many adults today have
trouble appreciating--as long as you preserve the love of learning, you
don't need to cram all the information you have into a child's brain as fast
as possible. You can consciously choose to save some things for when the
child is older and more mature, and concentrate on what the child can
genuinely "live into" now.
>Instead, doesn't it sometimes (surely not always) favor
>what I'd call rules of thumb, e.g. that reading "should" start around
>eight, that logical analytical subjects "should" start at twelve, etc?
>This sort of "cookbook" attitude has always gotten my dander up; I
>don't attribute it to any sort of venal occultism, just to people who
>want easy answers to difficult questions...
Sometimes, yes, you just don't have time to recreate everything for every
class. Teachers live the same 24 hour days we do! So it helps a lot to have
some rules of thumb. The whole point of Waldorf education, though, is to
enhance or replace "rules of thumb" with insights based on direct
perceptions of the students as much as humanly possible.
--Dick Oliver ----------
Cedar Science Center
Wolcott, Vermont USA
From ??? ??? Fri Feb 02 19:38:35 1996
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From: DSabsay aol.com
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 15:34:01 -0500
Message-ID: <960202153400_412986795 emout04.mail.aol.com>
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
Subject: Re: WCA peat fiber bibs
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Rise Smythe-Freed (Anthroposophical Nurse) wrote >
> Dan, I notice several folks on the WC find you maddening or irritating or
> some other adjective. I find you all of those and endearing as well. But
> truly, Dan, you can't possibly believe your 'science' is complete. Can you
prove
> with your science that peat bibs do not work?
In addition to the condescending language here, I am disappointed to hear a
nurse (of any kind) imply that a factual assertion about the effacacy of bibs
can't be tested by a simple double-blind test ("your 'science'").
Warmly,
-- Daniel Sabsay, president
East Bay Skeptics Society
From ??? ??? Fri Feb 02 19:38:59 1996
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From: IReadRudy aol.com
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 17:37:55 -0500
Message-ID: <960202173755_413073220 mail02.mail.aol.com>
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
Subject: WCA A Reply from Val
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Hereforth is a meesage from our friend, Val:
Subj: Re: (from Val) Re: WCA the swastik
Date: 96-02-02 17:16:36 EST
From: vwsetzer ime.usp.br (Valdemar W. Setzer)
To: IReadRudy aol.com
Dear Rise,
Thank you very much for your message lamenting my absence from the
critics-waldorf list. I got the copy you sent me personally.
You mentioned some bib to protect from the computer. I think my problem
with the computer is that it produces tension (mainly by someone as
myself, that knows pretty well how poorly designed and implemented the
hardware and sotware systems are). But this is a subject for itself,
deserving many discussions.
I did not leave the c-w list because of computer problems with my heart.
I left it because I could not stand anymore the type of arguments that
were being presented. The one that WSs prepared the ground for the
Hollocaust was the last drop. One has to be extreme cruel to use such an
an argument - which is just a guess, it is impossible to prove it. I also
saw no reason for debating with someone who is able to use such an
argument.
As you sent your mail to the list, please forward this to it.
Unfortunately, before unsubscribing I did not read all the posted mail. I
would like to comment on a question posted by Dan, commenting my first
(strong) reaction against the Hollocaust argument. He said, if I
remember well, that he could not understand how come a person of Jewish
descendence could stand Steiner's position regarding the Jewish People.
Dan, a person that poses such a question shows IMO that:
1. He does not have enough knowledge of Anthroposophy. (BTW, once you
wrote that according to Steiner Jesus was an incarnation of Zarathustra,
and later received the Christ being. That's wrong.)
or
2. Has not understood with his thinking and heart what Anthroposophy is about
or
3. Is not being honest.
The great admiration I have to the old Hebrew people stems exactly from
Steiner. He was the one that gave me conceptual explanations on how to
understand the gigantic mission that people had. He helped me understand
why they had to be racists in those ancient times, e.g. preventing mixing
with neighbour peoples and to understand that there is no more sense in
being racist anymore.
Commenting on my departure from the list, Dan said something like "if you
are feelng that the kitchen is too hot, you better leave it." Using your
metaphor, Dan, I would say that hot kitchens don't disturb me, on the
contrary. I adore hot discussions. What I don't like is lack of respect
and false arguments, or, in other words, cooking with poisons. The kitchen
was so much loaded with poisons that their fumes were enough to make me
run from it. I cold not see healthy dishes coming out of it.
Best regards to everybody,
Val.
From ??? ??? Sun Feb 04 01:02:02 1996
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Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 01:34:53 -0700
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: WCA peat fiber bibs
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Rise, you said,
>And you, sir, seem to be a victim as well. The advertisement you cite is
>accurate. I use my peat bib to protect myself from the effects of the
>computer screen. The act of typing is not good for the heart, either, but
>Val was spending long hours in the glow of the screen while he was
>keyboarding.
The victims of quackery are usually its strongest supporters.
How do you know "the advertisement is accurate?" (It's an epistemology
problem.) Please explain the source of your confidence.
> But
>truly, Dan, you can't
> possibly believe your 'science' is complete.
If it were I wouldn't be interested in it.
>Can you prove with your
>science that peat bibs do not work?
I will be happy to assist you in designing a critical test, but you (or the
manufacturers) must provide the money/time/energy to accomplish it. It is
the responsiblity of people who make commercial claims to back up their
assertions.
-Dan
From ??? ??? Sun Feb 04 20:56:10 1996
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Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 20:48:47 -0700
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: WCA Waldorf charter in Grass Valley
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Recently the Twin Ridges Alternative Charter School "Waldorf-inspired"
charter school was formed in the Grass Valley/Nevada City area of Northern
California. All the families in the private Waldorf school nearby
transferred their kids, and the private school closed. Why pay for it when
the taxpayers are paying?
The school is a full-bore doctrinaire Waldorf school with all but one of
the teachers Waldorf-trained.
Some parent members of the board (who were also previously on the board of
the private school) have come to the conclusion, based on the behavior of
the teachers, that they are involved with a religious cult. This did not
come easily; they struggled with it for months before accepting what was
becoming increasingly apparent to them.
They contacted me a couple of weeks ago for help. I want to emphasize that
I did not give them this idea! They were relieved to find that they weren't
the only people to form this opinion. I appreciate the validation, too.
These parents allege that public funding of the school is illegal due to
the religious nature of Waldorf education, and they have formed a committee
to revoke the charter.
-Dan
From ??? ??? Sun Feb 04 20:55:58 1996
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Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 20:49:09 -0700
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: WCA Racism 1/4 Introduction
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The Roots of Racism in Waldorf Schools
by Dan Dugan, revised February 4, 1996
Contents:
I. Introduction
II. Quotations: Race in General
III. Quotations: The Jews
IV. References
I. Introduction
Waldorf schools are a worldwide system of primary and secondary schools
founded on the philosophy of Rudolf Steiner. In some countries they are
funded by the government. Until recently, all Waldorf schools in the USA
have been private. Missionary activity by Anthroposophy, the sect which
carries on Steiner's work, has resulted in the founding of a few public
alternative Waldorf schools, and a growing number of charter schools.
Waldorf schools are often wracked by controversies which break out when
parents discover strange or offensive beliefs or practices. Some of these
incidents involve allegations of racism in the curriculum or in a teacher's
treatment of students. I will attempt to show, by quotations from Rudolf
Steiner and his followers in Anthroposophy, that racism is inherent in the
movement.
I believe most Waldorf teachers sincerely embrace the ideal of the
brotherhood of humanity, and express this belief in their classrooms. But
Waldorf teachers study a lot of Steiner. Steiner's teachings are pervaded
by a racial mythology that both he and the Nazis derived, separately and in
parallel, from Madam Blavatsky's Theosophy. Though he differed with the
Nazis on nationalism and tactics, Steiner, too, made much of the
superiority of the Central European soul and of the German spirit, as
compared to other ethnic groups. Early Nazi ideologists drew inspiration
from Steiner's teachings (see Goodrick-Clarke, 1992). When the Nazis banned
Anthroposophy, I suspect it was principally for its ambitions as a rival
political movement.
Occasionally, Steiner expressed high ideals about the unity of humanity. In
1909 he wrote that the "anthroposophical movement, ...must cast aside the
division into races. It must seek to unite people of all races and nations
and to bridge the divisions and differences between people and various
groups of people. ... [W]e must get beyond the illnesses of childhood and
understand clearly that the concept of race has ceased to have any meaning
in our time" (Steiner, 1909, UH pp. 11-13). But at very nearly the same
time he made many statements that imply his brotherhood did not include all
people. Perhaps his position shifted depending on the audience he was
trying to reach at the time.
I apologize for the length of some of the quotations, but I want to provide
a full background and avoid the charge of taking things out of context. As
outrageous as some of this material may appear, I suspect that the
available translations, all post-World War II, have been "cleaned up" for
American sensibilities.
I have not searched out obscure sources for these items; all of the books
cited are either on display in the bookstores of Waldorf schools, used as
teaching guides, or promoted through Anthroposophical presses whose
catalogs are distributed at the schools and teacher training colleges. I
question whether, despite their high ideals and good intentions, teachers
whose training includes proto-Nazi racial mythology can avoid bringing this
misinformation into the content of their lessons, and into their
relationships with the children.
* Quotations marked thus are from works which were required reading for
teacher trainees at Rudolf Steiner College, 1993-1994.
The items in each section are in historical order. Steiner's works are
given their original dates. His titles are coded for brevity; please see
the references for the actual editions used. For transmission by wire,
italics in originals are rendered *thus*, and dashes by two hyphens "--".
From ??? ??? Sun Feb 04 20:56:20 1996
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Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 20:49:52 -0700
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: WCA Racism 3/4 The Jews
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III. Quotations: The Jews
* "The family [for which Steiner was a live-in tutor, in Vienna, ca 1880]
was Jewish. In their views they were quite free from any sectarian or
racial narrowness, but the head of the family, to whom I was strongly
attached, felt a certain sensitiveness about any expression of a Gentile in
regard to the Jews. The flame of anti-Semitism which had sprung up at this
time caused this feeling.
"Now, I took an interested part in the struggle which the Germans in
Austria were then carrying on in behalf of their national existence. I was
also led to occupy myself with the historical and social position of the
Jews. Especially earnest did this activity become after the appearance of
Hamerling's Homunculus. This eminently German poet was considered by a
great part of the journalists as an anti-Semite because of this work;
indeed, he was claimed by the anti-Semites of German nationality as one of
their own. This did not concern me at all, but I wrote a paper on the
Homunculus in which, as I thought, I expressed myself quiet objectively in
regard to the position of Judaism. The man in whose home I was living, and
who was my friend, took this to be a special form of anti-Semitism. Not in
the least did his friendly feeling for me suffer on this account, but he
was affected with profound distress. When he had read the paper, he faced
me, his heart torn with innermost sorrow, and said to me: 'What you have
written here in regard to the Jews cannot be explained in a friendly sense.
This, however, is not what strikes me, but the fact that, in view of your
close relation with us, you could have had the experiences which induced
you to write thus only in connection with us and our friends.' He was
mistaken; I had formed my opinions altogether on the basis of an
intellectual and historical survey; nothing personal had slipped into my
judgment. He could not see the matter in this way. His reply to my
explanation was: 'No, the man who teaches my children is, after this paper,
no "friend of the Jews."' ...To all this was added the fact that many of
my friends had taken on from their national struggle a tinge of
anti-Semitism in their view of Judaism. They did not look sympathetically
upon my holding a post in a Jewish family; and the head of this family saw
in my friendly mingling with such persons only a confirmation of the
impression he had received from my paper." (Steiner, 1925, CML pp. 142-143)
"Thus we have two different races of mankind. The one consists of the
original descendants of the Elohim, the sons of Cain, who are called the
Sons of Fire. They are those who till the earth and create from inanimate
nature and transform it through the arts of man ... Abel was a shepherd. He
held firmly to what he found, he took the world as it was. There is always
this antithesis between people. One sticks to things as they are, the other
wants to create new life from the inanimate, through art. ... It is the
Sons of Fire who have to work into the world the wisdom, beauty and
goodness from the all-embracing universal throught, in order to transofrm
the world into a temple.
Jehovah is also called the God of created form, the God who turns what
is living into a living force, in contrast with that other Elohim who
creates by charming life out of what is lifeless. To which of these does
the future belong? That is the great question of the Temple Legend. If
mankind were to develop under the religion of Jehovah, all life would
expire in form. ... [T]he point in time has now arrived when man himself
must awaken the dead to life. That will happen through the Sons of Cain,
through those who do not rely on the things around them, but are themselves
the creators of new forms. (Steiner, 1905, TL p. 142)
"[C]onsciousness of this group-soulness existed preeminently among the
ancient Hebrews. A person who consciously felt himself to be a member of
this people understood, 'As an individual human being, I am a transitory
phenomenon, but there lives in me something that has an immediate
connection with all the soul essence that has streamed down since the days
of our progenitor, Abraham.'" (Steiner, 1909, UH p. 10)
"It takes a certain kind of brain to express such faculties as Zarathustra
possessed. That is, he had to be born into a body that had inherited the
qualities making it an appropriate instrument for such faculties. ... This
perfectly adapted physical organization was the contribution of the ancient
Hebrews to Christianity." (Steiner, 1909, UH p. 33)
"[T]he faculties having to do with reasoning not related to clairvoyance,
with evaluating the world by measure, number and weight--faculties that aim
not at seeing into the spiritual world but at understanding sensory
phenomena--were first implanted by the spiritual world in the individuality
known as Abraham or Abram. ... Abraham's mission, however, was not a
teaching or method of clairvoyant perception but something bound to the
brain. Thus, it could be transmitted to later generations only through
physical inheritance. The mission given to Abraham depended on being
transmitted physically from one generation to the next, that is, the
perfected organization of Abraham's brain had to be inherited by his
descendants generation after generation." (Steiner, 1909, UH p. 36)
"The Hebrews were chosen to develop the faculties for observation of the
outer world. Nevertheless, every new development contains also atavistic
remnants of earlier things. That is why everything that was not purely in
the blood and still recalled ancient clairvoyance had to be excluded for
the sake of the transmission of the new outer-directed faculties. Thus, the
Hebrews always had to exclude what came as an inheritance from other
peoples." (Steiner, 1909, UH p. 41)
"It was the special faculty of the ancient Hebrews to turn what is
inherited down through the generations into a more and more perfect
instrument so that finally a body could be produced that could be the
instrument for Christ who would incarnate in it. ... They had to receive
through external revelation even those things other peoples received
through direct inspiration...Joseph was initiated into the Egyptian
mysteries, and the Jews attained through external means the knowledge they
needed about the spiritual worlds." (Steiner, 1909, UH p. 44)
"The Babylonian Captivity was the time when the astral body of the Hebrews
developed, and what gives this astral body its impulse in the final
fourteen generations of the forty-two was implanted into it then. That is
why the Hebrews were led into the Babylonian Captivity where, six hundred
years before our era, Zarathas or Nazarathos was incarnated as the teacher
in the Mystery schools of the Babylonians. There, the most prominent Hebrew
leaders came in contact with Zarathas, the great teacher of that era.
Zarathas joined them and became their teacher. From him the Hebrew leaders
received the impulse that, in their last fourteen generations, prepared
them for the birth of Jesus." (Steiner, 1909, UH p. 46)
"[Jesus felt]: All the forces of soul which I believed had been bestowed
upon me lead only to the realisation that in the evolution of the Jewish
people there is no longer the capacity to reach the heights of Divine
revelations." (Steiner, 1913, FG p. 67)
"The fact that Jehovah could not free himself from the spirits he had
evoked led to the transition of the Old Testament thinking into the
atheistic science of the modern age. This in the field of social thinking
has become marxism or something similar." (Steiner, 1918, TCT pp. 32-33)
"Since, for the life between birth and death, what is connected with the
breathing remains unconscious, the Jewish culture was a folk culture, not
an individualized culture of humanity. It was a folk culture in which
everything is related to the descent from a common tribal father. Jewish
revelation is, in its essential nature, a revelation adapted to the Jewish
people, because it takes account of what is acquired during the embryonic
life and is modified only through an unconscious element, the breathing
process.
"What is the result of this fact in our critical times? The result is
that those who will not become adherents of the Christ wisdom that brings
into the human being the other element, acquired during the life between
birth and death apart from the breathing process, wish to continue in their
relationship to the Jehovah wisdom and to have humanity established only on
the basis of folk cultures. The present clamor in favor of an organization
consisting of individuals from mere peoples is a retarded ahrimanic demand
for the establishment of such a culture, in which all the peoples represent
only folk cultures, that is, Old Testament cultures. The peoples in all
parts of the world are to become like the Jewish Old Testament people. This
is the demand of Woodrow Wilson." (Steiner, 1918, TCT pp. 165-166)
"[T]here must gradually develop in humanity what is connected with the true
Christ impulse, and what is related to the mere Jehovah impulse must be
superseded." (Steiner, 1918, TCT p. 167)
"Christ Jesus appeared amongst a people who worshipped Jahve or Jehovah,
that Jehovah-God who is connected with all that is natural
existence...Jahve is that God who can never, if man is connected with Him
alone, give man his completeness...He does not give man the consciousness
of his rebirth...So we see how modern humanity is led away and diverted
from Christ Jesus for Whom there is no distinction of class, nation or
race, but for Whom there is only a single humanity. We see how the thoughts
and feelings of modern humanity have been led aside to that which has
already been overcome by the birth of Jesus Christ...And if it was the
*one* Jehovah that the Jews worshipped when Christ came, then the modern
nations have returned to *many* Jehovahs...In a beautiful way does the
Christmas tree lead us back to man's origin; in an ugly and hateful way
does the national Jehovah principle lead us back. In reality that which is
only a Jehovah, through an unconscious lie, is often addressed as Christ,
and the name of Christ is thus misused." (Steiner, 1920, SNI pp. 4-5)
In *Invisible Africa*, a resource book on Africa for Waldorf teachers, a
South African Anthroposophist links Judaism and the materialistic spirit
Ahriman:
"By the third epoch, the races had become established with the
one-sidedness which is still apparent today. As we previously suggested,
the spiritual European consciousness soul aspirant (Aryan) is not tied to
the one-sided racial political climate of our modern world whether for or
against racialism; both miss the main issue.
"The Aryan can be found in any race, just as much as any race member can
be found to have incarnated as an outward European. As we previously
suggested, racial collectiveness for its own sake is not conducive to
cultural development in our age. The world appears to be isolating us
[South Africa], but in reality the opposite is true. We are being withdrawn
to preserve what Europe can no longer do.
"The Jehovah Ahriman forms are casting their light over Europe even over
the most protected of corners and individuals. The danger lies with
individuals when the consciousness soul is flung back into its old moon
astrality. Then wisdom is sought for wisdom's sake and becomes to the
dismay of their soul, enhanced information. The individual should seek the
inner light of enquiry. But the social political sphere shows the easier
path of moral indignation for matters outside, which the world media
happily supply [sic].
"What we call the news media are pictures of the nervous system of the
being referred to above (Jehovah Ahriman). They evoke emotional responses
for matters that have no cosmic counterpart, thus trapping the individual
more into a web of baleful light where even anarchy can appear artistic."
(Downer, 1987, p. 195)
"The tragic karmic bonds that unite the three [peoples: Germans, Russians
and Jews], when experienced in the light and warmth of the present Christ
Revelation, reveals profound mysteries of the past, present and future
destiny of the Christ impulse and the Ego development of humanity. (The
Jews represent the past, the Germans the present, and the Russians the
future of this impulse.)" (Ben Aharon, 1993, p. 53)
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Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 20:50:08 -0700
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: WCA Racism 4/4 References
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IV. References
Ben Aharon, Josaiah. The Spritual Event of the Twentieth Century: An
Imagination: The Occult Significance of the 12 Years from 1933-45 in the
Light of Spiritual Science. London: Temple Lodge, 1993.
Downer, Graham. "The South African Paleolithic Age." Invisible Africa: A
search for the Grail in Africa--Selected Essays. Kenilworth, Republic of
South Africa: Novalis Press, 1987, p. 188.
Goodrick-Clarke, Nicholas. The Occult Roots of Nazism: Secret Aryan Cults
and Their Influence on Nazi Ideology: The Ariosophists of Austria and
Germany, 1890-1935. New York, New York University Press, 1992.
Picard, Hymen W.J. "Some Thoughts on Race Relations." Invisible Africa: A
search for the Grail in Africa--Selected Essays. Kenilworth, Republic of
South Africa: Novalis Press, 1987.
Steiner, CM
Steiner, Rudolf. Cosmic Memory: Prehistory of Earth and Man. (1904)
Trans. Karl E. Zimmer. Blauvelt, New York: Steinerbooks, 1987.
* Steiner, CML
Steiner, Rudolf. The Course of My Life. (1925) Trans. Olin D. Wannamaker.
Hudson, NY: Anthroposophic Press, 1951.
Steiner, CRLA
Steiner, Rudolf. Christ in Relation to Lucifer and Ahriman. (1915) Trans.
Peter Mollenhauer, Ph.D. Spring Valley, NY: Anthroposophic Press, 1978.
* Steiner, CT-3
Steiner, Rudolf. Conferences with the Teachers of the Waldorf School in
Stuttgart 1922 to 1923: Volume Three: Being the end of the Fourth Year.
(1923) Trans. Pauline Wehrle. Forest Row, U.K.: Steiner Schools Fellowship
Publications, 1988.
* Steiner, CT-4
Steiner, Rudolf. Conferences with the Teachers of the Waldorf School in
Stuttgart 1923 to 1924: Volume Four: Being to the end of Dr. Steiner's
visits to the School. (1924) Trans. Pauline Wehrle. Forest Row, U.K.:
Steiner Schools Fellowship Publications, 1989
Steiner, DIN
Steiner, Rudolf. The Destinies of Individuals and of Nations. (1914-15)
Trans. Anna R. Meuss. New York: Anthroposophic Press 1987.
Steiner, EEM
Steiner, Rudolf. The Evolution of the Earth and Man and the Influence of
the Stars. (1924) Trans. Gladys Hahn. Hudson, NY: Anthroposophic Press,
1987
Steiner, FG
Steiner, Rudolf. The Fifth Gospel. (1913) Trans. C. Davy & D.S. Osmond.
London: Rudolf Steiner Press, 1968.
Steiner, GSJ
Steiner, Rudolf. The Gospel of St. John And Its Relation to the Other
Gospels. (1909) Trans. Samuel and Loni Lockwood, rev. Maria St. Goar, ed.
Stewart Easton. Spring Valley: Anthroposophic Press, 1982.
Steiner, HI-1
Steiner, Rudolf. Health and Illness: Volume I. (1922) Trans. Maria St.
Goar. Spring Valley: Anthroposophic Press, 1981.
* Steiner, KHW
Steiner, Rudolf. Knowledge of the Higher Worlds and its Attainment. (1904)
Trans. George Metaxa, revised by Henry B. and Lisa D. Monges. Hudson, NY:
Anthroposophic Press, 1947.
Steiner, KU1
Steiner, Rudolf. The Karma of Untruthfulness: Volume One. (1916) Trans.
Johanna Collis. New York: Anthroposophic Press, 1988
Steiner, MTA
Steiner, Rudolf. Materialism and the Task of Anthroposophy. (1921) Trans.
Maria St. Goar. Hudson, NY: Anthroposophic Press, 1987.
Steiner, SNI
Steiner, Rudolf. The Search for the new Isis the divine Sophia. (1920)
Trans. not given. Spring Valley, NY: Mercury Press, 1983.
Steiner, SSFSF
Steiner, Rudolf. Spiritual Science as a Foundation for Social Forms. (1920)
Trans. Maria St. Goar. Ed. Alan Howard. New York: Anthroposophic
Press,1986.
* Steiner, T
Steiner, Rudolf. Theosophy: An Introduction to the Supersensible Knowledge
of the World and the Destination of Man. (1922) Trans. Henry B. Monges,
Revised by Gilbert Church. Hudson: Anthroposophic Press, 1971.
Steiner, TCT
Steiner, Rudolf. The Challenge of the Times. (1918) Trans. Olin D.
Wannamaker. Spring Valley, NY: Anthroposophic Press, 1941 (undated edition
post 1961)
Steiner, UH
Steiner, Rudolf. The Universal Human: Four Lectures given between 1909 and
1916 in Munich and Bern. (1909-1916) Trans. edited by Christopher Bamford
and Sabine H. Seiler. Anthroposophic Press, 1990.
Wilkinson, Roy. Teaching History: The Ancient Civilizations; India; Persia;
Egypt and Babylonia; The Fourth Cultural Epoch: Greece and Rome. Fair Oaks,
CA: Rudolf Steiner College Press, 1992.
Wilkinson, Roy. Commentary on the Old Testament Stories. Fair Oaks, CA:
Rudolf Steiner College Press, 1993.
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Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 20:55:36 -0700
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: WCA Racism 2.1/4 General A
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II. Quotations: Race in General
"The Ancestors of the Atlanteans lived in a region which has
disappeared, the main part of which lay south of contemporary Asia. In
theosophical writings they are called the Lemurians. After they had passed
through various stages of development the greatest part of them declined.
These became stunted men, whose descendants still inhabit certain parts of
the earth today as so-called savage tribes. Only a small part of Lemurian
humanity was capable of further development. From this part the Atlanteans
were formed.
"Later, something similar again took place. The greatest part of the
Atlantean population declined, and from a small portion are descended the
so-called Aryans who comprise present-day civilized humanity. According to
the nomenclature of the science of the spirit, the Lemurians, Atlanteans
and Aryans are *root races* of mankind. If one imagines that two such root
races preceded the Lemurians and that two will succeed the Aryans in the
future, one obtains a total of *seven*." (Steiner, 1904, CM p. 48)
* "Besides their character, families, nations and races have also their
destiny. ... Besides the separate individuals, a very real family and
national group soul and racial spirit is at work in the life of a family, a
people, or a race. Indeed, in a certain sense the separate individuals are
merely the executive organs of these family group souls, racial spirits,
and so on....In the truest sense, everyone receives his alotted task from
his family, national or racial group soul." (Steiner, 1904, KHW pp.
240-241)
* "[P]eoples and races are but steps leading to pure humanity. A race or a
nation stands so much the higher, the more perfectly its members express
the pure, ideal human type, the further they have worked their way from
physical and perishable to the supersensible and imperishable. The
evolution of man through the incarnations in ever higher national and
racial forms is thus a process of liberation. Man must finally appear in
harmonious perfection." (Steiner, 1904, KHW p. 252)
"We are within the great Root Race of humanity, which has peopled the
earth, since the land on which we now live rose up out of the inundations
of the ocean. Ever since the Atlantean Race began slowly to disappear, the
great Aryan Race has been the dominant one on earth. If we contemplate
ourselves, we here in Europe are thus the fifth Sub-Race of the great Aryan
Root Race. The first Sub-Race lived in the distant past in Ancient India.
And the present-day Indians are descendants of that first Sub-Race, whose
spiritual life is still extant in the ancient Indian Vedas. The Vedas are
indeed only echoes of the ancient culture of the Rishis. At that time there
was of course no writing yet - there was only tradition. Then came the
second, third and fourth Sub-Races. The fourth Sub-Race adopted
Christianity. Then, halfway through the Middle Ages, we see that the fifth
Sub-Race formed itself, to which we and the neighboring nations belong."
(Steiner, Rudolf. The Temple Legend: Freemasonry and Related Occult
Movements: Twenty Lectures given in Berlin between 23rd May 1904 and the
2nd January 1906. (1904-1906) Trans. John M. Wood, Edited E.M. Lloyd.
London: Rudolf Steiner Press, 1985, p. 220)
"[W]hat the etheric body comprises derives from the maternal element, as
handed down from generation to generation, so that every man bears in his
own etheric body the legacy of the maternal element, and in his physical
body, that of the paternal element. Now, by reason of consanguinity, the
inheritance, perpetuating itself from etheric body to etheric body, was
very potent, and from it derived the old faculty of clairvoyance. The
offspring of endogamy inherited with the related blood the old capacity for
wisdom in the etheric body. But as blood became more and more mixed--as a
result of increasing intermarriage among tribes--the possibility of handing
down the ancient wisdom diminished; ...the mixing of different bloods
obscured the ancient wisdom more and more... We are, of course, still
involved in this process of deterioration taking place in the human blood
because, in as far as it has its origin in an ancient epoch, it will follow
its lingering course to the end of *Earth* evolution." (Steiner, 1909, GSJ
p. 226)
"[A]s a consequence of the Luciferic and Ahrimanic influences, human blood
became ever less fitted to provide the faculty of seeing the outer world in
its true light: a steady increase in illusion was bound up with the blood's
deterioration, with the dissolution of blood as it had been in the age of
consanguinity, with the blood's dispersion and destruction by
miscegenation. No longer could man consult the old wisdom he had once
possessed as a legacy... Had it not been for the intervention of the Christ
influence, he would ultimately have lost his whole heritage of ancient
wisdom by being gradually reduced to complete dependence upon the outer
sense world and its impressions." (Steiner, 1909, GSJ p. 244)
"It is indeed very uncommon--note that I am saying uncommon, though it does
not always have to be so--that a soul belongs to the same community on
earth through a number of consecutive incarnations. Souls pass from one
earthly community to another...we have one example of souls actually
assuming the same nationality a number of times. That is the case with the
people of Central Europe. These Central European peoples include many souls
that are incarnated among them today and have also been incarnated in the
Germanic tribes in the past. This is a fact we are able to trace."
(Steiner, 1915, DIN p. 57)
"The Western European peoples have become very much crystallized in their
national characteristics, but in the case of the German people this cannot
happen because of the peculiar nature of the German folk spirit. The result
is that German attitudes will always have to remain more universal than
those of other peoples. These things relate to profound realities in the
spiritual world." (Steiner, 1915, DIN p. 176)
"The German spirit...is prepared for a truth that reveals itself to be true
out of itself, not requiring external verification. The German spirit is
prepared for this and evidence of this may be found everywhere. The
thoughts of those who were truly working within the essence of the German
spirit have always taken the form of considering truth to be an inner gift
of the human soul." (Steiner, 1915, DIN p. 104)
"What has to come about for the civilization and culture of the future
will only come about if the German folk spirit finds souls that transplant
the Christ impulse into their astral body and ego the way it can indeed be
implanted there in a state of full conscious awareness. It has to come
about through harmony being established, by uniting with that which is
consciously achieved in Central Europe--more and more consciously.
"This will need not just one or two centuries, but a very long time. The
time needed...I would say counting from the year 1400. Adding two thousand
years to 1400 we get the approximate time when something will emerge in the
evolution of the earth that has had its seeds in the German life of the
spirit...That is the intention of the cosmic intelligence...For the moment
the East is very far indeed from achieving this. The very best of them
still fall far short. Short sightedly, they still refuse to accept what
Central European culture in particular is able to give." (Steiner, 1915,
DIN p. 62)
Not only is it characteristic of Hindu thought, if not of all Asian
religious perception, however, that its entire attention is directed to the
time preceding the appearance of the Christ impulse, but also that the
state of religious perception is preserved as it was in those days. If
something remains behind in the evolutionary process it can be interpreted
to have absorbed something luciferic, and for this reason Asian religious
evolution is the carrier of a luciferic element. A glance at the religious
development of Asia will inform us that it contains much of what mankind as
a whole once possessed but was later forced to abandon. We must in part
cleanse Western culture of the luciferic remnants and in part we must
elevate them in such a way that the Christ impulse can enter. (Steiner,
1915, CRLA p. 11)
"[The purpose of the Opium War] is not to help certain people make millions
and grow rich but to prevent certain souls who would have come from the
spiritual world round about now, to strengthen the cultural forces of
Europe, from incarnating yet, and instead to surreptitiously fill European
bodies with Chinese souls...In a great many European people a disharmony
between soul and body has been brought about in the way I have just
described...Seen in this way, that Opium War meant the switching of a soul
element from a part of the earth to which it belonged--and where it might
have been of use, because it would have fitted--to another part of the
earth where it could become a tool for forces whose designs are by no means
necessarily beneficial for mankind." (Steiner, 1916, KU1 p. 270)
"[B]ecause our etheric bodies differ in their constitution, composition,
and structure in the cosmos, there would have to be seven groups of human
beings. This is the fact we gradually arrive at when we investigate the
relationship between our etheric body and our physical body with the
methods of spiritual science. Now this difference is connected with the
racial diversities on the earth. Basically, because of this difference in
etheric bodies, the several races can always be reduced to the number
seven." (Steiner, 1916, UH p. 74)
"[V]arious types of human beings would have appeared one after the other.
However, Lucifer and Ahriman...fought against this harmonious tendency of
development in the evolution of humanity...Thus, forms that should have
disappeared remained. Instead of racial diversities developing
consecutively, older racial forms remained unchanged and newer ones began
to evolve at the same time. Instead of the intended consecutive development
of races, there was a coexistence of races. That is how it came about that
physically different races inhabited the earth and are still there in our
time although evolution should really have proceeded as I have described
it." (Steiner, 1916, UH pp. 74-75)
"[T]he ancient Greeks dreamed of a uniform, perfect, beautiful type of
human being that should have developed. This development did not occur
because Lucifer and Ahriman preserved older racial forms that had
developed, so that there was a coexistence of races rather than a
succession." (Steiner, 1916, UH p. 76)
"The most characteristic sign of the time is the belief that when a group
of individuals have set up some trashy proposition as a general
program--such as the unity of all men regardless of race, nation or color,
and so forth--something has been accomplished. Nothing has been
accomplished except to throw sand into people's eyes. Something real is
attained only when we note the differences and realize what world
conditions are." (Steiner, 1920, SSFSF p. 122)
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From: IReadRudy aol.com
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 01:23:26 -0500
Message-ID: <960205012324_136077316 emout05.mail.aol.com>
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
Subject: Re: WCA peat fiber bibs
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In a message dated 96-02-03 04:34:43 EST, Dan Dugan writes:
>Rise, you said,
>
>>And you, sir, seem to be a victim as well. The advertisement you cite is
>>accurate. I use my peat bib to protect myself from the effects of the
>>computer screen. The act of typing is not good for the heart, either, but
>>Val was spending long hours in the glow of the screen while he was
>>keyboarding.
>
>The victims of quackery are usually its strongest supporters.
Golly, Dan. I don't consider myself a victim. I consider myself an informed
consumer. I appreciate your concern for me, but, really I am quite capable
of deciding what is quackery and what is not. I do see your point however.
After all, there are many ardent supporters of "modern medicine" who are
victims of the medical system and know it but can do nothing to help
themselves. Those are the folks you could assist with your energies.
>
>How do you know "the advertisement is accurate?" (It's an epistemology
>problem.) Please explain the source of your confidence.
My own work, hands on, with "peat" in Anthroposophical Remedies. Now I don't
expect you to believe me; I sure am not going to fund a double blind study
like our resident skeptic has asked for. But I have been pleased with the
results of peat on a practical level.
>> But
>>truly, Dan, you can't
>> possibly believe your 'science' is complete.
>
>If it were I wouldn't be interested in it.
>
>>Can you prove with your
>>science that peat bibs do not work?
>
>I will be happy to assist you in designing a critical test, but you (or the
>manufacturers) must provide the money/time/energy to accomplish it. It is
>the responsiblity of people who make commercial claims to back up their
>assertions.
If that were true in practice we would already be rid of many consumer goods.
Much of the 'medicine' listed as 'over-the-counter' would have to be
removed from the shelves. Much of prescription medicine would have to be
removed as well. In practice an advertiser can make any sort of claim they
can get away with; in mainstream medicine and science this can be achieved by
diddling with statistics. The folks that made my peat computer bib are good
folk. I like them and I like my bib. You need a test and I've already done
mine.
Warmly,
Rise Smythe-Freed
From ??? ??? Sun Feb 04 23:35:53 1996
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Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 23:29:30 -0700
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: WCA Racism 2.2/4 General B
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"[T]he representative people for the development of the consciousness soul,
hence for what matters particularly in our age, is the Anglo-Saxon nation.
The Anglo-Saxon people are those who through their whole organization are
predisposed to develop the consciousness soul to a special degree. The
prominent position occupied by the Anglo-Saxon nation in our time is indeed
due to the fact that this nation is especially suited for the development
of the consciousness soul." (Steiner, 1921, MTA p. 195)
* "Even the savage is affected by nature, but the laws of nature reveal
themselves only to the thoughts fructified by intuition of the more highly
developed man." (Steiner, 1922, T p. 31)
"You see, when we really study science and history, we must conclude that
if people become increasingly strong, they will also become increasingly
stupid. If the blonds and blue-eyed people die out, the human race will
become increasingly dense if men do not arrive at a form of intelligence
that is independent of blondness. Blond hair actually bestows intelligence.
... It is indeed true that the more the fair individuals die out the more
will the instinctive wisdom of humans vanish." (Steiner, 1922, HI-1, p. 86)
* "No doubt about it, the soul becomes corrupted through using the French
language...It is also possible at the present time that the French will
even ruin their own blood, the very element which has kept their language
going as a corpse. That is a terrible thing the French people are doing to
other people, the frightful cultural brutality of transplanting black
people to Europe. It affects France itself worst of all. This has an
incredibly strong effect on the blood, the race. This will substantially
add to French decadence. The French nation will be weakened as a race."
(Steiner, 1923, CT-3 pp. 87-88)
* "The girl L.K. in class 1...is one of those cases that are occurring more
and more frequently where children are born and human forms exist which
actually, with regard to the highest member the ego, are not human at all
but are inhabited by beings who do not belong to the human race...They are
very different from human beings where spiritual matters are concerned. For
instance they can never memorise sentences, only words. I do not like
speaking about these things, as there is considerable opposition about
this. Just imagine what people would say if they heard that we are talking
about human beings who are not human beings. Nevertheless these are facts.
Furthermore, there would not be such a decline of culture if there were a
strong enough feeling for the fact that some people, the ones who are
particularly ruthless, are not human beings at all but demons in human
form.
"But do not let us broadcast this. There is enough opposition already.
Things like this give people a terrible shock. People were frightfully
shocked when I had to say that a quite famous university professor with a
great reputation had had a very short period between death and re-birth and
was a re-incarnated negro scientist.
"But don"t let us publicise these things." (Steiner, 1923, CT-4 pp. 36-37)
"[T]he European sort of invention is impossible for either the Chinese or
the Japanese." (Steiner, 1924, EEM p. 77)
"[W]e are not justified in thinking that human beings were originally like
the savages of today. The savages have developed into what they now
are--with their superstitions, their magical practices and their unclean
appearance--from states originally more perfect. The only superiority we
have over them is that, while starting from the same conditions, we did not
degenerate as they did. I might therefore say: The evolution of man has
taken two paths. It is not true that the savages of today represent the
original condition of mankind. Mankind, though to begin with it looked more
animal-like, was highly civilized. ... Just as the present savages have
fallen from the level of the human beings of primeval times, so the apes
are beings who have fallen still lower." (Steiner, 1924, EEM p. 126)
There is evidence that Nazi ideologists drew from Steiner's teachings.
According to Goodrick-Clarke:
"Here [*Ostara*, July, 1908] he [Gravell] outlined a thoroughly
theosophical conception of race and a programme for the restoration of
Aryan authority in the world. His quoted occult sources were texts by Annie
Besant, Blavatsky's successor as leader of the international Theosophical
Society at London, and Rudolf Steiner, the Secretary General of its German
branch in Berlin." (Goodrick-Clarke, 1992, p. 101)
In the next three items, South African Anthroposophists (Picard, Downer)
apply Steiner's teachings to their situation in South Africa. From a book
distributed in the U.S. as resource material for Waldorf teachers preparing
a unit on Africa:
"According to Rudolf Steiner, certain regions of the earth are connected
with the Historical development of the human being. One of these regions or
centres, as they are better called, where cosmic influences played their
part was situated in the interior of Africa. All terrestrial forces
emanating from the soil, that influence man during his early childhood,
were particularly active in those centres... Man's environment has the
strongest impact on him during his early childhood, and this particular
environment imprints the characteristics of his childhood upon him for the
rest of this life... Thus the black negro race is determined by these
childhood characteristics. Another centre where cosmic influences were
particularly active was located in Asia but there the etheric formative
forces of the earth impressed permanently upon man the characteristics of
adolescence. There the brown and yellow races came into being, the brown
race specifically imprinted with the characteristics of the child from the
age of seven years to fourteen years; the yellow race with those of the
youth from fourteen to twenty-one years. In a similar centre in Europe, the
characteristics of maturity were imprinted upon the race and in America
those of the older human being and even old age. Dr. Steiner calls this a
UNIVERSAL LAW.
"Coming back to the black race which had its centre in the interior of
Africa, the Spirits of Form--the Exousiai--and the Abnormal Spirits of Form
(who as you will remember are those Higher Beings who forsook their
promotion to a higher hierarchy to perform a special duty), were centred in
Mercury. Hence we may call the black race the Mercury Race. Although the
seeds for this race were already planted in Lemuria, its concrete formation
occurred in early Atlantis. From there the race spread across Africa and
"crystallized," as Dr. Steiner put it, into the Ethiopian race as an
expression of an impulse from the Mercury Oracle or, if one prefers, the
Mercury Mysteries in Atlantis. In these Mysteries, the abnormal Spirits of
Form worked specifically in the glandular or lymphatic system. Everything
that characterised the Ethiopian race stems from the fermentation of the
Mercury forces in the glandular system of the people. Dr. Steiner taught:
"What transforms the undifferentiated universal human form into black
pigmentation and wooly or frizzy hair, is the consequence of their
activity."
"Whereas Mercury dominates, so to speak, the glandular system, Venus
dominates the nervous system, Mars the blood and Jupiter the senses. Hence
the specific characteristics of Venus--brown race, Mars--yellow race, and
Jupiter--white race...
"In lectures presented by the late Dr. Max Stibbe, who made an extensive
study of race relations in South Africa, it was mentioned that the Mercury
Mysteries in Atlantis soon degenerated, with the result that the Negro race
was deprived of those spiritual impulses that introduced initiatives.
Migrating from Atlantis, the blacks entered Africa at the mouth of the
Congo river. Some of them went to North-West Africa, the rest journeying to
the East and the South. The life forces of the black race are so strong
that they absorb all light. The warmth of the cosmos is, so to speak,
boiling inside them, hence their particular metabolism, their strong
desires, instincts and emotions. Their skin is coarse (large-pored) and
their limbs extraordinarily strong, in comparison with which the
development of their thinking is much weaker. Their strong life forces see
to it that of their soul functions, WILLING is by far the most strongly
developed. Their metabolism is dominated by the liver, hence the frequent
liver diseases--and other glandular disturbances--among blacks. They are
rigidly imprisoned in the fire of their metabolism and their physical as
well as etheric body is hardened." (Picard, 1987, pp. 113-114)
"[Apartheid] failed badly...in spite of the fact that Apartheid is a law of
nature and as such a divine law of the Bantu. It failed badly because the
Apartheid philosophers like Dr. Hendrik Verwoerd approached the problem in
a purely intellectual way. They did not, or possibly could not, realise how
easily Apartheid leads to discrimination. The true meaning of Apartheid is
NOT discrimination. Not at all, Mutwa [Zulu author Credo Mutwa] declares.
The true meaning of the word is: 'to distinguish between two things without
deciding which is best, while discrimination means to distinguish by
deciding which is best.'...Apartheid in South Africa though practised in a
more humane way than in many black African states must be condemned as a
feasible constitutional possibility; not because its principle is wrong but
because human nature is such that Apartheid automatically turns into
discrimination--and discrimination soon leads to suppression." (Picard,
1987, pp. 126-127)
"'Aryan' is a name that comes out of occult tradition and has often been
used by Rudolf Steiner. The Aryan is the spiritual European, the being who
with an individualised ego, has a developing consciousness soul directed
towards balancing wisdom with morality. This is taken to the point where
the personality is drawn from this balance, where wisdom and morality form
as it were, a chalice and there is not just wisdom for wisdom's sake!
During this century an extreme form of outward racial connotation has been
given to the term Aryan, particularly by Adolf Hitler who by materialising
the spiritual task and nature of the Aryan attempted to create an evil
counterpart to true spiritual evolution.
"The Aryan type works through the European race in general although he
may incarnate within another race as a sacrificial gesture to assist in the
destiny of that race. This can happen to assist the individualizing of
personalities in that race so that their unique qualities are freed to
contribute towards mankind's future. The immediate cultural task lies with
the Aryan." (Downer, 1987, p. 189)
>From recent teacher training manuals:
"In ancient times Persia was inhabited by two different peoples, the Aryans
and the Turanians. The Turanians, yellow with small cunning eyes,
worshipped the god Ahriman, the prince of darkness. The Aryans saw their
god in the light of the sun, and named him Ahura Mazdao, the Great Light."
(Wilkinson, 1992, pp. 16-17)
"When it was time for Zarathustra to leave the earth, he climbed the
mountain...As he turned to look back at the earth, he had a vision of
things to happen in the future. He saw the Aryan peoples marching on
victoriously towards the west..." (Wilkinson, 1992, pp. 17-18)
"Noah had three sons, Shem (Sem), Ham and Japhet. Three races are named
after them. Shem or Sem means 'the name' and implies an ego quality. The
Jews are Semites. Ham means 'the dark one' and the Egyptians and
Canaanites, with whom the Israelites had to contend, trace their descent to
him. Japhet means 'the beautiful.' The Greek and Nordic peoples are the
Japhetites, bearing new spiritual impulses." (Wilkinson, 1993, p. 23)
From ??? ??? Sun Feb 04 23:52:21 1996
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Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 23:35:28 -0700
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: WCA Separation of C and S
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Rise, you quoted me (Dan):
>>Steiner claimed repeatedly that
>>Anthroposophy was the -only- way to true knowledge. Anthroposophy pretends
>>to subsume and replace all other spiritual traditions. If you believe that,
>>call yourself a convert.
and asked:
>Sight your sources, chapter and verse.
Citations:
"Just as there is only one correct opinion concerning a mathematical
problem, so also is this true with regard to the higher worlds. But before
such an opinion can be reached, due preparation must first be undergone."
(Steiner, Rudolf. Knowledge of the Higher Worlds and its
Attainment. (1904) Trans. George Metaxa, revised by Henry B. and Lisa D.
Monges. Hudson, NY: Anthroposophic Press, 1947, p. 129)
"[H]e who seeks knowledge of man must find it in Anthroposophy."
(Steiner, Rudolf. The Kingdom of Childhood; Seven Lectures.
(1924) Trans. Helen Fox. Hudson, New York: Anthroposophic Press, 1988,
p. 20.)
"To teach gymnastics and other physical exercises...the teacher will
require what Anthroposophy alone--and above all, the anthroposophical habit
of mind--can give. He need not himself see into the spiritual worlds at
once, but he must have the understanding to apply in life only what springs
from spiritual know- ledge."
(ibid, p. 44)
This is a frequent theme of his, I don't think I've hardly scratched the
surface. I'll keep my eye open for this topic and collect some more.
-Dan
From ??? ??? Mon Feb 05 10:00:35 1996
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Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 23:52:12 -0700
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: WCA admin notes
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Sorry, digest readers, after #60 I accidentally reset the digest numbers;
they started over; what would have been #61 is called #1. Doesn't matter to
me, hope it's no inconvenience to you.
Sorry, I messed up numbering the parts of the Racism paper. After I split
it into four parts for transmission one of them turned out to be too long
and I had to split it again, so there are five parts and sloppy titling. Oh
well, I'm more interested in the content than the form, and I expect you
are, too.
-Dan
From ??? ??? Sun Feb 04 23:13:01 1996
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From: IReadRudy aol.com
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 01:52:46 -0500
Message-ID: <960205015245_312864875 mail06.mail.aol.com>
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
Subject: Re: WCA Waldorf charter in Grass Valley
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Dear Dan,
How very very sad for the informed parents and their children who worked so
hard for their dream of Waldorf Education to come to fruition to have their
school taken away from them because of the unfounded fears of a few
(including you). Your actions, in my opinion, are detestable.
Sincerely,
Rise Smythe-Freed
From ??? ??? Sun Feb 04 23:36:06 1996
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From: DSabsay aol.com
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 02:31:20 -0500
Message-ID: <960205023119_214390762 emout06.mail.aol.com>
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
Subject: Re: WCA peat fiber bibs
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Rise Smythe-Freed wrote >
> Golly, Dan [Dugan]. I don't consider myself a victim. I consider myself
an
> informed consumer. I appreciate your concern for me, but, really I am
quite
> capable of deciding what is quackery and what is not. I do see your point
however.
> After all, there are many ardent supporters of "modern medicine" who are
> victims of the medical system and know it but can do nothing to help
> themselves. Those are the folks you could assist with your energies.
> My own work, hands on, with "peat" in Anthroposophical Remedies. Now I
> don't expect you to believe me; I sure am not going to fund a double blind
study
> like our resident skeptic [a coy reference to Daniel Sabsay] has asked for.
But I
> have been pleased with the results of peat on a practical level.
[...]
> The folks that made my peat computer bib are good folk. I like them and I
like
> my bib. You need a test and I've already done mine.
> Warmly,
> Rise Smythe-Freed
Golly Rise, isn't faith warm and cozy? A definitive 20-trial test of obvious
nonsense doesn't need to take more than a couple of hours. Use yourself as
the subject.
By the way, are there actually Anthroposophical "hospitals" to go along with
Anthroposophical Nurses?
Warmly,
Daniel Sabsay, president
East Bay Skeptics Society
From ??? ??? Mon Feb 05 10:00:46 1996
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From: Lacombe999 aol.com
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 03:12:32 -0500
Message-ID: <960205031230_414774065 emout06.mail.aol.com>
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
Subject: WCA Reply to Rise
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Rise Smythe-Freed wrote:
>> But truly, Dan, you can't possibly believe your 'science' is complete.
Can you prove
>> with your science that peat bibs do not work?
and Daniel Sabsay responded:
>> In addition to the condescending language here, I am disappointed to hear
a
>> nurse (of any kind) imply that a factual assertion about the effacacy of
bibs
>> can't be tested by a simple double-blind test ("your 'science'").
I have to agree with Daniel Sabsay here, Rise. And the burden of proof does
not belong to the person who doubts the efficacy of any putative remedy, but
for the proponent of that remedy.
Warmly (albeit sceptically),
Frank LaCombe
Father of Teddy, age 7
Santa Cruz Waldorf School
From ??? ??? Mon Feb 05 10:00:49 1996
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From: Lacombe999 aol.com
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 03:42:31 -0500
Message-ID: <960205034229_136120904 emout10.mail.aol.com>
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
Subject: Re: WCA Waldorf charter in Grass Valley
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Now, wait a minute, Rise. According to Dan's account, the parents came to
him, not vice versa. If you have evidence that he solicited them actively
instead of being a passive recipient of their request for aid, please bring
it forward so we can all share it. If not, I cannot see where Dan has done
anything even remotely detestable.
As a Waldorf parent, I am comfortable with the implicit Antroposophical
underpinnings of the system insofar as they are believed by the teachers but
not taught to the students, much as I would be if my children were to attend
one of the many very fine Jesuit institutions of learning (went to one
myself, and can attest that they are scrupulous in separating their personal
beliefs from the curriculum). Other people are not so comfortable with
schools that carry religious and/or spiritual baggage, and that is certainly
their right -- and moreover the case of a publicly-funded school is
completely different from the case of the private Waldorf school to which I
send my son (and, starting in September, my other son as well). I have no
problem with a publicly-funded school that attempts to copy some of the
pedagogical practices of a Waldorf school (or Montessori or whatever), but I,
too, would have reservations about one that preserved the "College of
Teachers" model and was moreover staffed by Anthroposophical Society members.
Such a thing would not be a Waldorf-inspired public school, but rather a
Waldorf school masquerading as a public school. Surely you can see the
difference?
Cordially,
Frank LaCombe
Father of Teddy, age 7
Santa Cruz Waldorf School
From ??? ??? Mon Feb 05 12:09:26 1996
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Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 12:56:07 -0600
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From: Dick Oliver
Subject: Re: WCA Racism
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Dan, I appreciate your work collecting the "racist" quotes from Steiner.
Though I'm quite sure my interpretation of these quotes would be VERY
different from yours, I do agree that (in some of them, at least) you've
correctly identified the impulse you were trying to find: namely, instances
where Steiner and other anthroposophists crossed the line between
differentiation and discrimination.
I also agree with you that this is an extremely important issue. And we
agree that "followers" of Steiner who don't invoke their own thinking and
perceptive abilities will find it almost impossible not to make grave errors
and entertain racist notions, in the nastiest sense of the word "racist." I
even share your fears that this is undoubtedly happening in some Waldorf
schools today.
I'll have something to say about the other side of the coin, here. But
first, I just wanted to make it clear that both you and I are, in this case,
recognizing and opposing the same impulse, and agree that Steiner allowed
this impulse to enter into his writing.
We will probably differ on most details as this discussion continues, so
it's important to recognize that what we do agree on is more important than
those details!
--Dick Oliver ----------
Cedar Science Center
Wolcott, Vermont USA
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Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 14:23:47 -0500
From: Lee Story USG
Message-Id: <9602051923.AA11397 tlaser.zk3.dec.com>
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
In-Reply-To:
Subject: Re: WCA Separation of C and S
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Dan, I feel like I'm falling into a rhetorical trap by responding to
this, but it does seem to me that neither of your first two proffered
Steiner quotes actually says that Anthroposophy is "the -only- way to
true [spiritual] knowledge." I'm going to defend him on this subject.
> "Just as there is only one correct opinion concerning a mathematical
> problem, so also is this true with regard to the higher worlds. But before
> such an opinion can be reached, due preparation must first be undergone."
> (Steiner, Rudolf. Knowledge of the Higher Worlds and its
> Attainment. (1904) Trans. George Metaxa, revised by Henry B. and Lisa D.
> Monges. Hudson, NY: Anthroposophic Press, 1947, p. 129)
Fine. Most philosophers seem to think that there's "one correct
opinion", one "ding am sich", whether it combines thought and the
material world as in Steiner's monism, or separates idea from
"reality." This seems only mildly controversial. (Actually there are
"epistomological relativists" who would disagree; see the intro to
Putnam's papers, vol 3.) More to the point, nowhere here does Steiner
say that Anthroposophy is the only "due preparation".
> "[H]e who seeks knowledge of man must find it in Anthroposophy."
> (Steiner, Rudolf. The Kingdom of Childhood; Seven Lectures.
> (1924) Trans. Helen Fox. Hudson, New York: Anthroposophic Press, 1988,
> p. 20.)
The word "must", here, is highly ambiguous, and may very well mean simply
"will certainly". I don't have the German to check the nuances of the
original, but hope that someone can inform us.
> "To teach gymnastics and other physical exercises...the teacher will
> require what Anthroposophy alone--and above all, the anthroposophical habit
> of mind--can give. He need not himself see into the spiritual worlds at
> once, but he must have the understanding to apply in life only what springs
> from spiritual knowledge."
> (ibid, p. 44)
This does appear to say that an "anthroposophical habit of mind" is
-necessary- to teach phys ed, though the claim seems so inflated that
I'm willing to let it pass as evident hyperbole. I agree that you've
caught Steiner out.
But (1) it seems patent that physical exercises can be learned even
without a teacher (after all, someone had to invent them!), and (2)
Steiner seems to use the terms "anthroposophy" and "spiritual
knowledge" to refer to aspects of a particular self-reflective
attitude of "thinking about your thinking" (as Dick Oliver described
here). Thus the quote may be about as reasonable, if hyperbolic, a
claim as that a student of English literature "must" read Chaucer and
Milton, and not be satisfied to study only Postmodernists. So I don't
take him to claim that I have to agree about Atlantis in order to
teach push-ups satisfactorily. And I don't see that it has much to do
with your theme of Waldorf schools demanding that teachers be some
sort of 'registered' Anthroposophists.
The "only" in the last quoted sentence is very interesting. I see
this sort of statement frequently in Steiner's writing and, at least
when taken naively, its most obvious implication is that one should
not teach (or otherwise use) apparent knowledge which hasn't passed
through his process of introspective, intuitive "verification." This
would seem to rule out the use of tools provided by any technology not
well understood. In my case that would include not only nuclear
devices, but just about anything made of cast or forged metal! Any
comments on this? (We should try to understand him properly, after
all.)
Cheers, --lee
From ??? ??? Tue Feb 06 01:29:07 1996
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Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 12:42:53 -0800
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: lefty apple.com (Lefty)
Subject: Re: WCA Waldorf charter in Grass Valley
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Dan Dugan has presented us with what, on closer inspection, turns out to be
an inaccurate and fairly slanted picture of an ongoing situation at a
Waldorf-inspired charter school.
>Recently the Twin Ridges Alternative Charter School "Waldorf-inspired"
>charter school was formed in the Grass Valley/Nevada City area of Northern
>California. All the families in the private Waldorf school nearby
>transferred their kids, and the private school closed. Why pay for it when
>the taxpayers are paying?
This is, according to the principal of the Twin Ridges school, completely
inaccurate. The private school in question, the Mariposa Waldorf School,
was already bankrupt before the charter process was initiated. After
Mariposa had closed, parents from that school approached the Nevada County
School Superintendent who referred them to the Grass Valley School
District. According to what I'm told, the District would not have
considered the charter application if the Mariposa School were still a
going concern.
The Mariposa School had a total enrollment of around 60 students. The Twin
Ridges school has a total enrollment of about three times that.
Ex-Mariposa parents and students are, it should be noted, very much in the
minority at the Twin Ridges school.
According to the principal, while the philosophy and pedagogy of the Twin
Ridges school is drawn from Steiner, "anthroposophy is definitely neither
promoted nor required". In a series of "vision meetings" to determine the
general direction and approach of the school, the decision was made that,
among other things, the periodic festivals need not be themed on a
Christian basis in favor of a more multicultural approach. However, in
this last year (the school's first year of operation, by the way), mostly
owing to time and energy constraints stemming from the school's rapid
growth (from three classes to eight in a single year), the teachers "fell
back on what they knew" and the festivals were undertaken in a fairly
standard fashion, which caused some consternation among some parents.
>Some parent members of the board (who were also previously on the board of
>the private school) have come to the conclusion, based on the behavior of
>the teachers, that they are involved with a religious cult. This did not
>come easily; they struggled with it for months before accepting what was
>becoming increasingly apparent to them.
Dan fails to specify what behavior on the part of "the teachers" (all of
them?) led the parents to their surprising conclusion.
Based on what I'm hearing, the parents who have come to this conclusion are
an unrepresentative minority among the parent body. I was given the strong
impression that the actual basis for their action stems more from
interpersonal problems between a small group of parents and particular
members of the faculty than from any "religious cultism".
The principal states that "no way we're going to condone religiosity in the
schools". but also points out that, contrary to the beliefs of some, it is
not a requirement in the state of California that religion should never be
mentioned in a public school. What _is_ required is a balanced approach,
an approach which the school is working out with parents, faculty and the
school board.
There's more here than meets the eye; there's _certainly_ more than Dan has
told us. Regardless of who contacted whom first, it seems to me that Dan
is "making hay while the sun shines" here, and using a situation purely to
promote his own agenda.
--
Lefty [gYon-Pa]
C:.M:.C:., D:.O:.D:.
From ??? ??? Tue Feb 06 01:30:11 1996
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From: IReadRudy aol.com
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 21:08:02 -0500
Message-ID: <960205210801_215025478 emout07.mail.aol.com>
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
Subject: Re: WCA Waldorf charter in Grass Valley
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In a message dated 96-02-05 03:43:13 EST, Frank Lacombe writes:
>Now, wait a minute, Rise. According to Dan's account, the parents came to
>him, not vice versa. If you have evidence that he solicited them actively
>instead of being a passive recipient of their request for aid, please bring
>it forward so we can all share it. If not, I cannot see where Dan has done
>anything even remotely detestable.
I can see him jumping up and down in delight! Dan's beliefs appear, from his
contributions to this list, to be quite fanatical.
>As a Waldorf parent, I am comfortable with the implicit Antroposophical
>underpinnings of the system insofar as they are believed by the teachers but
>not taught to the students, much as I would be if my children were to attend
>one of the many very fine Jesuit institutions of learning (went to one
>myself, and can attest that they are scrupulous in separating their personal
>beliefs from the curriculum). Other people are not so comfortable with
>schools that carry religious and/or spiritual baggage, and that is certainly
>their right -- and moreover the case of a publicly-funded school is
>completely different from the case of the private Waldorf school to which I
>send my son (and, starting in September, my other son as well). I have no
>problem with a publicly-funded school that attempts to copy some of the
>pedagogical practices of a Waldorf school (or Montessori or whatever), but
I,
>too, would have reservations about one that preserved the "College of
>Teachers" model and was moreover staffed by Anthroposophical Society
members.
> Such a thing would not be a Waldorf-inspired public school, but rather a
>Waldorf school masquerading as a public school. Surely you can see the
>difference?
I do indeed see the difference. There are no Waldorf Schools with out
Anthroposophy. Children should not hear the word "Anthroposophy" until about
the 12th grader, or not at all. This is well understood among trained
Waldorf School Teachers; a background in Anthroposophy facilitates this
understanding. The College of Teachers "model" is what makes a Waldorf
School a Waldorf School. An intellectual awareness of information about the
pedagogy is hardly adequate resource with which to teach. Perhaps these
teachers are Society members; how better to be supported spiritually for the
task that awaits them every day? What is the point of having a public school
"masquerading" as a Waldorf School? The parents want Waldorf Education for
their children; not a kind-of-a-Waldorf-sort-of school.
>From your statements it seems it is all the same to you who teaches your
children. It is not all the same to me. I know there are differences
between an individual who can regurgitate book knowledge at will and one who
reads, observes, thinks, discerns, challenges his own beliefs and perhaps
comes to the conclusion every instant that Anthroposophy is their inner path.
One is simple intellectualism and one is intellectualism enobled by love and
then acted upon.
Warmly,
Rise Smythe-Freed
From ??? ??? Tue Feb 06 01:30:16 1996
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From: IReadRudy aol.com
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 21:08:05 -0500
Message-ID: <960205210804_215025429 mail06.mail.aol.com>
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
Subject: Re: WCA peat fiber bibs
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In a message dated 96-02-05 02:31:47 EST, Daniel Sabsay writes:
>Rise Smythe-Freed wrote >
>
>> Golly, Dan [Dugan]. I don't consider myself a victim. I consider myself
>an
>> informed consumer. I appreciate your concern for me, but, really I am
>quite
>> capable of deciding what is quackery and what is not. I do see your point
>however.
>> After all, there are many ardent supporters of "modern medicine" who are
>> victims of the medical system and know it but can do nothing to help
>> themselves. Those are the folks you could assist with your energies.
>
>> My own work, hands on, with "peat" in Anthroposophical Remedies. Now I
>> don't expect you to believe me; I sure am not going to fund a double blind
>study
>> like our resident skeptic [a coy reference to Daniel Sabsay] has asked
for.
> But I
>> have been pleased with the results of peat on a practical level.
>[...]
>> The folks that made my peat computer bib are good folk. I like them and I
>like
>> my bib. You need a test and I've already done mine.
>
>> Warmly,
>
>> Rise Smythe-Freed
>
>Golly Rise, isn't faith warm and cozy? A definitive 20-trial test of
obvious
>nonsense doesn't need to take more than a couple of hours. Use yourself as
>the subject.
>
>By the way, are there actually Anthroposophical "hospitals" to go along with
>Anthroposophical Nurses?
>
>Warmly,
>
> Daniel Sabsay, president
> East Bay Skeptics Society
Dear Dan, Resident Skeptic,
1) I did not mention "faith" in my post. Your reference to "faith" must be
in reference to the "warm and cozy" feeling you get when you cuddle up to a
"definitive 20 point test."
2) Coy, hmmmm. No one has ever described me in that way. I could get to
like this.
3) There are indeed "Anthroposophical Hospitals" and clinics, especially in
Europe. Efforts are underway to found a hospital in the USA as well.
Just so's ya know there are approx 18 certified Anthroposophical Physicians
in the US alone (and many more working towards certification. The membership
of the Physicians Association for Anthroposophical Medicine is comprised of
MDs and DOs in General and Family practice, Medical School Professor, Plastic
Surgery, Emergency Medicine, Pediatrics, Internal Medicine, Immunology,
Oncology, etc. We have a best selling author as well, Jesse Stoff MD,
"Chronic Fatigue Syndrome." PAAM has been in existence in the USA about 17
yrs.
The Anthroposophical Nurses Association of America has been around for 11
years. We started a certification program in Anthroposophical Nursing two
years ago. We have 100 or so members whose practices range from Hospice,
Home Health, Professor of Nursing, RN-Doctor of Jurisprudence, Nursing
Researcher, Author, RN-Art Therapist, MD Office, Private Duty, Med/Surg,
Critical Care, Nurse Practitioner, Nurse Missionary, School Nurse (Public),
Nurse Educator, etc... Our membership represents nursing practice nationally
in areas of specialization.
The Artemisia Association for the Anthroposophical Renewal of Healing is
comprised of the various organizations. All together we have about 300
members. We meet yearly for our Annual Medical Conference. Physicians,
therapists and nurses from Canada, South America, Africa, Russia, Europe,
Australia and other countries have joined in the past several years.
Warmly,
Rise Smythe-Freed
Anthroposophical Nursing
From ??? ??? Tue Feb 06 01:30:30 1996
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Date: Mon, 5 Feb 96 23:09:37 -0500
Message-Id: <9602060409.AA21705 handel.jlc.net>
Subject: Re: WCA Separation of C and S
From: Neil Faiman
To:
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Steiner, "The Path of Knowledge and Its Stages: The Rosicrucian
Spiritual Path (collected in
_Esoteric Development_, Anthroposophic Press):
To begin with, we would like to make it clear that there is not
just one kind of path of knowledge,
but three paths to consider. Yet this should not be understood as
if there were three truths.
There is only one truth, just as the view revealed from the peak of
a mountain is the same for
all who stand there. There are, however, various ways by which the
peak of the mountain can
be reached.
From ??? ??? Tue Feb 06 01:30:53 1996
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Message-Id: <199602060440.AA08213 relay1.shore.net>
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Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 23:44:48 -0600
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: Dick Oliver
Subject: Re: WCA Separation of C and S
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Steiner says:
> > "[H]e who seeks knowledge of man must find it in Anthroposophy."
Lee says:
>The word "must", here, is highly ambiguous, and may very well mean simply
>"will certainly".
You also have to remember that Steiner often used "anthroposophy" to
contrast with "anthropology" or other "-ologies". I'm not sure of the
context of the above sentence, but Steiner often said things nearly
identical to this in a context where he obviously meant that one must find
knowledge of man through holistic wisdom rather than intellectual knowledge
alone.
Giving things a name is dangerous. If he'd said "He who seeks *knowledge* of
man must find it through *wisdom* of man," then Dan probably wouldn't
complain, even if Steiner also said "Wisdom of man: that's my philosophy."
But since he said "Wisdom of man: (Anthroposophy): that's my philosophy."
and then said "He who seeks knowledge of man must find it through
Anthroposophy," all of a sudden he's a cult leader.
On the other hand, Steiner certainly does seem obsessed with his particular
viewpoint, as most philosophers are. Dan seems even more obsessed with his,
though. I guess if you only make sense to yourself, you're a "free thinker"
but if you make sense to a lot of other people, you're a "cult leader."
--Dick Oliver ----------
Cedar Science Center
Wolcott, Vermont USA
From ??? ??? Tue Feb 06 01:30:50 1996
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Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 23:44:51 -0600
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: Dick Oliver
Subject: WCA Train station
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BTW, I really liked a story that somebody told on the Waldorf list recently
about Steiner. In a train station, a bunch of "anthropops" were trying to
decide what to order for lunch based on the nutrition lectures they'd been
attending. After much discussion, they eventually decided to hunt down
Steiner and ask him what to get (even though he complained all the time
about people bugging him with trivia like that). He was eating a hot dog.
--Dick Oliver ----------
Cedar Science Center
Wolcott, Vermont USA
From ??? ??? Tue Feb 06 01:31:31 1996
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From: Lacombe999 aol.com
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 03:22:50 -0500
Message-ID: <960206032248_215280447 mail04.mail.aol.com>
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
Subject: Re: WCA Waldorf charter in Gr...
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Rise Smythe-Freed wrote:
>From your statements it seems it is all the same to you who teaches
>your children. It is not all the same to me. I know there are differences
>between an individual who can regurgitate book knowledge at will and one
>who reads, observes, thinks, discerns, challenges his own beliefs and
>perhaps comes to the conclusion every instant that Anthroposophy is
> their inner path. One is simple intellectualism and one is intellectualism
>enobled by love and then acted upon.
I certainly do care about the _behavior_ of those who teach my children and
I'm willing to tolerate some eccentric beliefs on the teachers' parts if they
produce the desired behavior. However, I do not believe that Dan's equation
of Anthroposohy with religion is frivolous (which is not the same as agreeing
that is correct), and I believe that the public schools should err on the
side of caution until the electorate, their representatives, or the courts
have adopted a more relaxed attitude toward public funding of religious or
quasi-religious schools. Having said that, I should add that I believe the
whole issue would become moot at once if the voucher system was adopted,
which is why I found the posting to the Waldorf list by a proponent of a
voucher initiative to be less off the topic than did Michael Kwan (and Lefty,
for that matter).
Finally, there is no question that Dan has an axe to grind -- but that is his
right. Given that, it is not only reasonable but commendable that he should,
in Lefty's words, "make hay while the sun shines." Indeed, so should we all.
Cordially,
Frank LaCombe
From ??? ??? Tue Feb 06 01:40:19 1996
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Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 01:28:32 -0700
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: WCA Val's comments on light
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>On
>
>>Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 00:25:47 -0700
>
>Dan wrote:
>
>>Waldorf teaching handbooks perpetuate Steiner's obfuscation, and the
>>results are evident in the student lesson books I've seen. The education of
>>Waldorf students must be supplemented from outside the system if they are
>>to understand the electromagnetic spectrum, and the color
>>analysis/synthesis process that is essential to color film, printing, and
>>video displays.
>
>I challenge you to cite one Waldorf School where Newton's theory of color
>is not studied in high school.
You obfuscate. In the teaching guides, demonstration lessons, and lesson
books that I have seen, Newton is discussed, but as a foil to Goethe.
"Newton was wrong" is an Anthroposophical doctrine that that recurs
consistently in Waldorf teaching.
How Steiner does science:
"Since the 1880's I have tried to gain acceptance for Goethe's theory of
color in spite of the findings of modern physics. Why does nobody
understand that? The answer is that Central Europe has been imbued with the
materialistic principle that has come to us for the British folk soul.
Newton, whom Goethe has to oppose, has been victorious over everything
emanating from Goethe's spirit."
(Steiner, Rudolf. Christ in Relation to Lucifer and Ahriman. (1915)
Trans. Peter Mollenhauer, Ph.D. Spring Valley, NY: Anthroposophic Press,
1978, p. 30)
A Waldorf teacher writes:
"In the spring physics block we worked with optics, experimenting with
primary and secondary colors, afterimages, the darkening of light, and the
use of the prism. We were fortunate to have a full set of prisms so that
each student had one and could first gaze through it at various objects in
the room and then experiment by looking at the boundaries between dark and
light shapes that had been placed on their desks. We observed that a dark
surface overriding a light surface gave the red-orange-yellow end of the
spectrum, and a light surface overriding a dark gave the blue-indigo-violet
end. We talked about light being darkened and dark being lightened and
about the seven colors of the spectrum. We then further explored the world
of color through painting."
(Finser, Torin M. School as a Journey: The Eight -Year Odyssey of a
Waldorf Teacher and His Class. Hudson, NY: Anthroposophic Press, 1994, p.
144)
The students here are studying Goethe's "primal phenomenon" which Steiner
elevates as doctrine. Steiner followed in Goethe's footsteps in rhetorical
technique: write ponderous pronouncements about scientific subjects and
your followers will praise you as a great scientist. In a closed system
like Steiner's it doesn't matter if the real scientists outside just laugh
at you.
Val continued:
>I have studied about 20 books and papers on Goethe's Color Theory,
>including his original and refutations as Helmholz's as well as more
>recent work published in the American Journal of Physics. I think there is
>no single good refutation of this theory. The argumets are in general
>the same as Dan's: Newton must have been right because we have
>lots of technology based upon his theory. Well, this would lead me to
>stay here for hours. Let me just say this: it is a well-known fact that
>Newton did some mistakes (for instance, in "Optiks" he says any lens
>produce color aberrations - he did not observe his own eye!). Goethe's
>main criticism against him is that his experiments with the prism used
>a light beam of a certain diameter - everyone may make the experiemt
>(it can be done with two black pieces of paper covering a stripe of
>white paper) that if the thickness increases or decreases the "Newtonian
>spectrum" (as in the rainbow) disappears! It is also a fact that if Newton had
>been a biologist instead of an astronomer, he would have stated that the
>light was composed of the complementary spectrum (microscopes
>produce beams of darkness, not of light as stars); to see it, use
>a black paper behind 2 sheets of white paper.
>Newton's theory of color in not a physical theory, it is a geometric one.
>So it is more than fair for a high school to present _both_ theories
>as possibilities, and put doubt on the "addition" or "decomposition"
>theory. BTW, we scientifically don't "know" what light is!!!
I also have Goethe's book. His theory is consistent with observations, but
that's all. It's a dead end, it lacks explanatory power.
Newton made many mistakes, and those parts of his work which have been
overthrown are ignored today. This is the way of science. Goethe and
Steiner didn't have the advantage of being in self-critical disciplines, so
their mistakes are still being held up as eternal verities. What stands of
Newton's theory explains Goethe's observations, and much more. Goethean
color theory and Newton's are no more equally respectable than creationism
and evolution theory are.
-Dan
From ??? ??? Tue Feb 06 01:40:15 1996
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Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 01:28:48 -0700
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: WCA Waldorf charter in Grass Valley
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Rise said,
>How very very sad for the informed parents and their children who worked so
>hard for their dream of Waldorf Education to come to fruition to have their
>school taken away from them because of the unfounded fears of a few
>(including you). Your actions, in my opinion, are detestable.
Yes, it is tragic that so many well-meaning people get tangled up with
institutionalized nonsense and church-state violations.
No one will prevent them from re-opening their private Waldorf school.
I have no fear of the Anthroposophical movement. I oppose those things it
does that I think are harmful to society.
You call it detestable, I call it public service work.
Sincerely, Dan
From ??? ??? Tue Feb 06 02:06:31 1996
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Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 01:39:48 -0700
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: (from Val) Re: WCA the swastika Pt. 1
Cc: vwsetzer ime.usp.br
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Before he slammed the door, Val quoted my posting:
>> "We are within the great Root Race of humanity, which has peopled the
>> earth, since the land on which we now live rose up out of the inundations
>> of the ocean. Evers since the Atlantean Race began slowly to disappear, the
>> great Aryan Race has been the dominant one on earth. If we contemplate
>> ourselves, we here in Europe are thus the fifth Sub-Race of the great Aryan
>> Root Race. The first Sub-Race lived in the distant past in Ancient India.
>> And the present-day Indians are descendants of that first Sub-Race, whose
>> spiritual life is still extant in the ancient Indian Vedas. The Vedas are
>> indeed only echoes of the ancient culture of the Rishis. At that time there
>> was of course no writing yet - there was only tradition. Then came the
>> second, third and fourth Sub-Races. The fourth Sub-Race adopted
>> Christianity. Then, halfway through the Middle Ages, we see that the fifth
>> Sub-Race formed itself, to which we and the neighboring nations belong."
>> [Steiner, Rudolf. The Temple Legend: Freemasonry and Related Occult
>> Movements: Twenty Lectures given in Berlin between 23rd May 1904 and the
>> 2nd January 1906. (1904-1906) Trans. John M. Wood, Edited E.M. Lloyd.
>> London: Rudolf Steiner Press, 1985, p. 220.]
>>
>> After the war, Anthroposophical publishers bowldlerized "Sub-Race" to
>> "cultural era" and "Aryan Epoch" to "Post-Atlantean Epoch." But there's so
>> much Steiner literature that they weren't able to clean it all up. Of
>> course "Aryan race" jumps right off the page, and once the code is known,
>> it's all over the place.
and Val commented,
>That's absolute nonsense. In 1906 Steiner was still a
>member of the Theosophical society. He started giving lectures on spiritual
>matters to the T.S. circles - I think in his biography he says that this
>was the
>only group of people open enough and interested in hearing his own
>experiences. So he was using Blavatsky's teminology. Later on he abandoned
>it, recognizing that the words used by B. were not adequate to modern
>times. He then coined "Epochs" and never used again Race and Sub-race -
>which, by the way, were not connected to what we call "race'! This was not
>done by "Anthroposophical publishers". In his book "Occult Science - an
>Outline", Steiner himself had already changed the terminology, using more
>precise and adequate terms devised by himself.
It's not so simple, Val. First, many books which Steiner published using
the term "theosophy" were later published with "anthroposophy" substituted,
and I recall in one introduction the translator saying that Steiner really
meant the same thing as "anthroposophy" when he said "theosophy" earlier.
Three of Steiner's "basic four" books were written before the split with
Theosophy!
After the split Steiner said critical things about theosophy, but to my
knowledge he never repudiated any of the lore that he himself taught under
that name. And regarding using the "Race" and "Sub-Race" terms, I don't
think it makes much difference since he -means- the same by the bowdlerized
terms. For example, in 1916, well after he left Theosophy, Steiner said:
"[B]ecause our etheric bodies differ in their constitution, composition,
and structure in the cosmos, there would have to be seven groups of human
beings. This is the fact we gradually arrive at when we investigate the
relationship between our etheric body and our physical body with the
methods of spiritual science. Now this difference is connected with the
racial diversities on the earth. Basically, because of this difference in
etheric bodies, the several races can always be reduced to the number
seven."
[Steiner, Rudolf. *The Universal Human: Four Lectures given between
1909 and 1916 in Munich and Bern*. (1909-1916) Trans. edited by
Christopher Bamford and Sabine H. Seiler. Anthroposophic Press, 1990.]
and also:
"[V]arious types of human beings would have appeared one after the other.
However, Lucifer and Ahriman...fought against this harmonious tendency of
development in the evolution of humanity...Thus, forms that should have
disappeared remained. Instead of racial diversities developing
consecutively, older racial forms remained unchanged and newer ones began
to evolve at the same time. Instead of the intended consecutive development
of races, there was a coexistence of races. That is how it came about that
physically different races inhabited the earth and are still there in our
time although evolution should really have proceeded as I have described
it."
[ibid]
I don't see him "correcting" Theosophical racial theory here. He makes it
quite explicit. And I want to point out again the Anthroposophical
definition of evil: something that would be good in the right time, but
which appears at the wrong time. If something in the wrong time is evil,
what would Steiner have us think of those races who now coexist only due to
the intervention of Lucifer and Ahriman, instead of the "intended" sequence
of single races? Isn't it convenient that the Aryan is the "intended" race
in this epoch.
Let us go later to 1923, where Steiner said TO THE TEACHERS:
"No doubt about it, the soul becomes corrupted through using the French
language...It is also possible at the present time that the French will
even ruin their own blood, the very element which has kept their language
going as a corpse. That is a terrible thing the French people are doing to
other people, the frightful cultural brutality of transplanting black
people to Europe. It affects France itself worst of all. This has an
incredibly strong effect on the blood, the race. This will substantially
add to French decadence. The French nation will be weakened as a race."
[Steiner, Rudolf. Conferences with the Teachers of the Waldorf School
in Stuttgart 1922 to 1923: Volume Three: Being the end of the Fourth Year.
(1923) Trans. Pauline Wehrle. Forest Row, U.K.: Steiner Schools Fellowship
Publications, 1988, pp. 87-88]
TWO YEARS LATER, Hitler published:
"France is and remains by far the most terrible enemy. This people, which
is basically becoming more and more negrified, constitutes in its tie with
the aims of Jewish world domination an enduring danger for the existence of
the white race in Europe. For the contamination by Negro blood on the Rhine
in the heart of Europe is just as much in keeping with the perverted
sadistic thirst for vengeance of this hereditary enemy of our people..."
[Hitler, Aldolf. *Mein Kampf* (1925) Trans. Ralph Manheim. Boston:
Houghton Mifflin, 1971, p. 624]
Since Steiner said it first, he should get the credit.
Val quotes me further:
>> My mention the swastika in our Free Inquiry article (co-written with Judy
>> Daar) would have been a cheap shot, if it weren't for the fact that there
>> *are* connections with proto-Nazi mythology.
>Firstly, the connections of Nazism to occultism was never clearly established.
>One knows of personal connections, but not of the movement as a whole.
>I read a book called "The Occult and the Third Reich" which showed how
>sticky these matters are, and that one should not make hurried conclusions
>as those Dan makes.
I agree with Val here. I have a collection of the Nazi/occult books;
they're mostly modern mythology, including a notable one by an
Anthroposophist, Ravenscroft's "The Spear of Destiny." I think pretending
that Hitler was a agent of evil powers denies the real human motivations
that produced the Third Reich, and deflects responsibility.
One book impresses me as scholarly, "The Occult Roots of Nazism: Secret
Aryan Cults and their Influence on Nazi Ideology," by Nicholas
Goodrick-Clarke. NYU Press, 1992. Lots of names and dates, no tall tales.
Steiner has eight entries in the index.
(continued in part 2)
From ??? ??? Tue Feb 06 02:06:39 1996
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Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 01:40:03 -0700
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: (from Val) Re: WCA the swastika Pt. 2
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(Part 2 of message)
Val continues:
>Secondly, Dan's passage in the Inquiry article is:
>
>>Long-term Waldorf teachers are pious Anthroposophists, dedicated to
>>preserving and promulgating Steiner's world view. Over the center of
>>the blackboard, where Catholics would put a crucifix, we have seen a
>>Waldorf teacher put a painting of the sun. Another classroom we visited
>>gave the top center position to a picture of a dancer, left arm angled
>>up and right arm angled down. This is a depiction of a sign for the sun
>>god, the swastika.
>
>If Dan would know a bit of Waldorf Education, he would know that
>teachers choose appropriate pictures to hang at the wall, according
>to the block they are teaching, or according to the children's age.
>Probrably the teacher never realized that an associtation with the
>swastika could have been made of that dancer posture - maybe one needs
>a special negative interest to do that... As Anthroposophy is a world in
>itself, Dan will always find passages, pictures and attitiudes that,
>taken out of context, may be associated with anything. There is
>a word for that in my language: "procurar pelo em ovo", "searching
>hair in an egg's shell"...
I have a special negative interest. I'm showing the other side of this
"world in itself."
>Dan is in this passage surreptitiously assotiating Wardorf E. with
>Nazism - this became clear in his interventions in this list, for instance
>the one mentioning that WE could have prepared the ground for the
>hollocaust, which made me give up any attempt to stay here and carry
>a serious discussion (Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 02:14:37 -0700):
>
>>I do hold Steiner responsible for laying some of the
>>foundations upon which the holocaust was built, a
>
>This association is not just an attempt of
>denigrating WE, but it is probably the cruelest one could make to
>_anything_ in this world. But it also shows that Dan is obsessed with his
>campaign; an obsessed person is not always owner of his thoughts and
>feelings anymore; and the master in this situation has a very distinctive
>characteristic: he has no common sense and establishes no limits. So
>exaggerations will continue to pour - Dan, go ahead, I think the results
>of your defamation efforts will be calling attention to the real WE, to
>its own benefit... People will say: if such a person is against WE, it must
>be something good!
Perhaps, but it works both ways. I know some people for Anthroposophy who
give it a bad reputation. I admit to fascination; probably obsession on
occasion. How do you characterize your relationship to Anthroposophy?
>
>On that date, he tries to defend himself on the above Free Inquiry quotation,
>and writes:
>
>
>> O
>> _____|
>> | |
>> |
>> | |__
>> |
>...
>> I also note that Steiner used this gesture of the arms
>>for the figure of Christ both in a painting and in his monumental
>>sculpture.
>
>How ignorant! The legs are firmly on the ground, the arms holding
>adversary forces coming from the ground and from above. The arms
>positions have no other meaning.
>
>I hope also that people will recognize the common mistakes Dan is
>constantly doing - on purpose or not. For instance, he wrote sometime ago
>that the first class in Stuttgart gaduated in 1931 (associating again
>with the Nazi period...), probably a result of 1919+12. He is, for a change,
>absolutely wrong: a 9th grade was formed in 1919, which graduated in
>1922 - see the introducation of Stockmeyer's book on the W
>curriculum for an account on this.
Then, was the school graduating its tenth or eleventh high-school class
when Hitler took power in '33?
>Dan asked about "democracy" in Steiner.
>
>>I've never seen where Steiner talks about the details of democracy, has
>>anyone?
>
>Dan, you read 40 books and nothing about the 3-Fold Commonwealth? Bah...
I've read lots about the Threefold Commonwealth, and I subscribe to "THe
Threefold Review" and the "Journal of Anthroposophy" to keep current. In
all this there's practically nothing about democracy. Steiner always says
that people have equal rights, but he never talks about voting. He
ridicules parliamentary systems of government. As far as I know,
Anthroposophical enterprises today are governed totalistically by
self-perpetuating councils of elders. The best example of Anthroposophical
political theory in action are the Camphill villages, institutions for the
developmentally disabled. Do they have elections in Camphill villages?
>I wanted many times to refute Dan's false arguments. Unfortunately I
>can't use the computer for too long, and have many other things to
>do. Also, a discussion in the Waldorf list on computers in education
>is presently much more important than unmasking someone that associates
>any serious thing with the holocaust and is obsessed by his feelings to the
>point of writing on Mon, 29 Jan 1996 00:26:09 -0700:
>
>> I give references; people can read the whole _damn_ book if they want to.
>(He was denigrating the book "How to attain ..."), my underscores.
>>BTW, in this book, Steiner speaks about the student finding a "master",
>but later on he said the times had changed and there was no
>sense anymore in this. But Dan is constantly referring to him as a
>guru:
>
>>This is an exemplary megalomaniac statement. He is saying there is only one
>>path to truth, and it is Anthroposophy. Guru talk.
>
>As for the "only path to truth", that's also absolutely wrong, but Ihave
>already spent too long here.
I think it's someone else's turn to do research. Please quote Steiner
saying that other confessions are also paths to spiritual truth.
>
>>More guru tricks. He says that even though you can't see the things he can,
>they will make sense to you if you suspend criticism and just believe them.
>
>It has been already stated in this list that Steiner repeatedly says one should
>not "believe" in him. But Dan continues to use this undue expression.
Which of Steiner's teachings do you not believe, Val?
>Finally, one more comment. Dan keeps repeating that he doubts Steiner's
>declaration that he "observed" the spiritual world. In this case, Steiner
>would be the greatest inventor of all times. I just can't imagine someone
>having so much imagination to consistently cover all the fields he did, from
>religions to history to agriculture to architecture to arts to education to
>social
>organization to philosophy and what not. I would rather stick to the
>hypothesis
>that he did observe what he described. And that his observations have
>"reality" behind them, otherwise they would not be applicable to practical
>life as they are.
Your choice; I don't believe him for a minute. Once a charismatic leader
has assembled a flock of devotees, he or she can just make things up as
they go along and the devotees lap it up. An outsider can look into one of
these scenes, and see how stupid it is. Most of Steiner's voluminous
pronouncements are about matters of faith which are untestable. When he
touches on science, a field with which I am familiar, he says things that
are so absurd that his credibility is destroyed.
-Dan
From ??? ??? Tue Feb 06 12:00:35 1996
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Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 02:06:03 -0700
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: WCA peat fiber bibs
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Rise wrote:
> Just so's ya know there are approx 18 certified Anthroposophical Physicians
>in the US alone (and many more working towards certification. The membership
>of the Physicians Association for Anthroposophical Medicine is comprised of
>MDs and DOs in General and Family practice, Medical School Professor, Plastic
>Surgery, Emergency Medicine, Pediatrics, Internal Medicine, Immunology,
>Oncology, etc. We have a best selling author as well, Jesse Stoff MD,
>"Chronic Fatigue Syndrome." PAAM has been in existence in the USA about 17
>yrs.
>
> The Anthroposophical Nurses Association of America has been around for 11
>years. We started a certification program in Anthroposophical Nursing two
>years ago. We have 100 or so members whose practices range from Hospice,
>Home Health, Professor of Nursing, RN-Doctor of Jurisprudence, Nursing
>Researcher, Author, RN-Art Therapist, MD Office, Private Duty, Med/Surg,
>Critical Care, Nurse Practitioner, Nurse Missionary, School Nurse (Public),
>Nurse Educator, etc... Our membership represents nursing practice nationally
>in areas of specialization.
>
> The Artemisia Association for the Anthroposophical Renewal of Healing is
>comprised of the various organizations. All together we have about 300
>members. We meet yearly for our Annual Medical Conference. Physicians,
> therapists and nurses from Canada, South America, Africa, Russia, Europe,
> Australia and other countries have joined in the past several years.
Many other forms of quackery are highly organized, with their own schools,
research institutes, and journals. It doesn't mean diddly squat in the real
scientific world, except as a social phenomenon to be studied.
-Dan
From ??? ??? Tue Feb 06 12:00:39 1996
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Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 02:06:10 -0700
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: WCA Separation of C and S
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Neil quoted:
>Steiner, "The Path of Knowledge and Its Stages: The Rosicrucian
>Spiritual Path (collected in
>_Esoteric Development_, Anthroposophic Press):
>
> To begin with, we would like to make it clear that there is not
>just one kind of path of knowledge,
> but three paths to consider. Yet this should not be understood as
>if there were three truths.
> There is only one truth, just as the view revealed from the peak of
>a mountain is the same for
> all who stand there. There are, however, various ways by which the
>peak of the mountain can
> be reached.
Interesting. What's the original lecture date, and what did he say the
three paths were?
-Dan
From ??? ??? Tue Feb 06 12:00:56 1996
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From: DSabsay aol.com
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 05:28:24 -0500
Message-ID: <960206052823_313983677 emout06.mail.aol.com>
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
cc: james.randi genie.geis.com
Subject: Re: WCA peat fiber bibs
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On Feb 5, 1996 6:08 PM PST Rise Smythe-Freed wrote (quoting me):
// 1) I did not mention "faith" in my post. Your reference to "faith" must
be
// in reference to the "warm and cozy" feeling you get when you cuddle up to
a
// "definitive 20 point test."
Here is a telling Freudian slip, the actual quote was "20-trial test"
And on Mon, Feb 5, 1996 6:08 PM PST, (in a second message) Rise Smythe-Freed
wrote:
// >From your statements it seems it is all the same to you who teaches your
// children. It is not all the same to me. I know there are differences
// between an individual who can regurgitate book knowledge at will and one
who
// reads, observes, thinks, discerns, challenges his own beliefs and perhaps
// comes to the conclusion every instant that Anthroposophy is their inner
path.
// One is simple intellectualism and one is intellectualism enobled by love
and
// then acted upon.
No faith here, only "challenges ... belief and ... the conclusion every
instant that Anthroposophy is their inner path." Yup, that's "every
instant."
[...]
// 3) There are indeed "Anthroposophical Hospitals" and clinics, especially
in
// Europe. Efforts are underway to found a hospital in the USA as well.
//
// Just so's ya know there are approx 18 certified Anthroposophical
Physicians
// in the US alone (and many more working towards certification. The
membership
// of the Physicians Association for Anthroposophical Medicine is comprised
of
// MDs and DOs in General and Family practice, Medical School Professor,
Plastic
// Surgery, Emergency Medicine, Pediatrics, Internal Medicine, Immunology,
// Oncology, etc. We have a best selling author as well, Jesse Stoff MD,
// "Chronic Fatigue Syndrome." PAAM has been in existence in the USA about
17
// yrs.
//
// The Anthroposophical Nurses Association of America has been around for 11
// years. We started a certification program in Anthroposophical Nursing two
// years ago. We have 100 or so members whose practices range from Hospice,
// Home Health, Professor of Nursing, RN-Doctor of Jurisprudence, Nursing
// Researcher, Author, RN-Art Therapist, MD Office, Private Duty, Med/Surg,
// Critical Care, Nurse Practitioner, Nurse Missionary, School Nurse
(Public),
// Nurse Educator, etc... Our membership represents nursing practice
nationally
// in areas of specialization.
//
// The Artemisia Association for the Anthroposophical Renewal of Healing is
// comprised of the various organizations. All together we have about 300
// members. We meet yearly for our Annual Medical Conference. Physicians,
// therapists and nurses from Canada, South America, Africa, Russia, Europe,
// Australia and other countries have joined in the past several years.
//
// Warmly,
//
// Rise Smythe-Freed
// Anthroposophical Nursing
Will they all buy their bibs from the same "Rudolf Steiner Bookstore in Fair
Oaks, California, USA"? Will Anthroposophical Hospitals prosper in our new
health-care system? Just think of the market for peat-fiber mattresses and
hospital uniforms! Will the level of education in America bounce back from
its all-time low?
But seriously, I am indeed impressed with the legions of Anthroposophical
missionaries prospering in our midst. History bears bitter witness to the
desperation and faith which flourishes in eras of plagues such as AIDS.
Faith is a soothing, but unproductive palliative that is, like a false
prophet, blissfully forgotten when the real answers are found, as in the
cases of Polio and Small Pox. Fortunately, there are still people with the
real courage to accept, often against their "inner path," the humbling
lessons of real medicine.
By the way, Rise, you might want to tune in NBC Dateline on Wednesday night,
the 7th (9:00 p.m. most areas). You'll see an up-to-the second example of
how quickly faith in a widely-believed device called the Quadro can turn sour
when a simple test shows how bogus it was. One of our skeptics, MacArthur
Fellow James Randi did the honors.
-- Warmly,
Daniel Sabsay, president
East Bay Skeptics Society
From ??? ??? Tue Feb 06 12:01:26 1996
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Date: Tue, 06 Feb 1996 09:06:42 -0600
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: Dick Oliver
Subject: Re: WCA Separation of C and S
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Steiner, via Dan Dugan:
> > "Just as there is only one correct opinion concerning a mathematical
> > problem, so also is this true with regard to the higher worlds."
If this isn't true, then public education is destined to always be a disaster.
Does human consciousness actually exist? If so, then presumably one can
research and come to reasonably objective answers about the "mysteries" of
the inner life and inner development of human beings. These answers are not
going to have the concrete character of outer facts about human physiology,
but they should not be open for any old interpretation that some teacher
stumbles upon, either.
Waldorf education begins when a group of parents and teachers believe that
we mere mortals can in fact percieve and agree upon the essentials of what
happens to a human child growing up. Not just the changes in the child's
body, but the development of the actual, sentient human being herself. Her
reality, her essential nature, her "spirit" if you will. (Or even if you
won't. )
Materialism is the premise that the child is not sentient--that she is a
body and only a body, with no consciousness. And no, frankly, I don't want
my child's teacher--or any other teacher, for that matter--to be working
from such a crazy and dangerous premise. If that's religion, then I think
religion should be in public schools. But it has nothing to do with churches
or states.
--Dick Oliver ----------
Cedar Science Center
Wolcott, Vermont USA
From ??? ??? Tue Feb 06 12:01:23 1996
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Date: Tue, 06 Feb 1996 09:06:44 -0600
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: Dick Oliver
Subject: Re: WCA Racism
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Now that we've heard from Steiner and the South African anthropops, I'm
dying to hear Mr. Dugan's version. What ARE the differences between, say,
Chinese and Africans, or French and Germans? Can you describe the
differences in a detailed, objective way that does not open you up to claims
of "racism"?
On which points are you implying that Steiner was wrong, and on which points
may he have been right?
For example, I would argue that the artifacts and arts of Africa,
historically, do in fact clearly show the strongest influence from the
rhythms and patterns of the physical Earth, Chinese works do show a stronger
connection to the organizational and social, and that a vastly
disproportionate amount of the physical-science intellectual tradition has
come from German and Jewish individuals. And I also see that the course of
history has seen the focus of the world's attention shift from the more
physical works, to the more organizational, to the western intellectual.
Does this make me a racist?
--Dick Oliver ----------
Cedar Science Center
Wolcott, Vermont USA
From ??? ??? Tue Feb 06 12:01:44 1996
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Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 09:33:17 -0700
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: slainson rmii.com (Suzanne Lainson)
Subject: WCA Separation of C and S
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>
>Waldorf education begins when a group of parents and teachers believe that
>we mere mortals can in fact percieve and agree upon the essentials of what
>happens to a human child growing up. Not just the changes in the child's
>body, but the development of the actual, sentient human being herself. Her
>reality, her essential nature, her "spirit" if you will. (Or even if you
>won't. )
>
>Materialism is the premise that the child is not sentient--that she is a
>body and only a body, with no consciousness. And no, frankly, I don't want
>my child's teacher--or any other teacher, for that matter--to be working
>from such a crazy and dangerous premise. If that's religion, then I think
>religion should be in public schools. But it has nothing to do with churches
>or states.
I think most people who send their children to public schools do believe in
religion. But since there are huge variations in what religion means to
people, the schools have decided to leave this task to parents and churches
and parochial schools.
If Steiner's views on how develop spirituality in children corresponded to
my own, then I would probably feel more comfortable with the Waldorf
approach. But they don't.
Although I think some have suggested that the Waldorf approach is a
non-denominational approach to spiritual development, others have suggested
that there can be no such thing. To use the Waldorf approach is in fact to
impart a certain spiritual view of the world, which may be unacceptable to
followers of other religions.
I'm pretty sure that as more Waldorf charter schools are developed, the
opposition to them will be most strong from the Christian right.
Suzanne
Suzanne Lainson SportsTrust Integrated Marketing
slainson rmii.com P.O. Box 2071 Sports and Event Marketing
303 473-9884 Boulder, CO 80306 Online Marketing
From ??? ??? Tue Feb 06 12:02:09 1996
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From: IReadRudy aol.com
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 12:35:50 -0500
Message-ID: <960206123548_215479916 emout09.mail.aol.com>
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
Subject: Re: WCA peat fiber bibs
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In a message dated 96-02-06 05:05:37 EST, Dan Dugan writes:
>
>Rise wrote:
>
>> Just so's ya know there are approx 18 certified Anthroposophical
Physicians
>>in the US alone (and many more working towards certification. The
>membership
>>of the Physicians Association for Anthroposophical Medicine is comprised of
>>MDs and DOs in General and Family practice, Medical School Professor,
>Plastic
>>Surgery, Emergency Medicine, Pediatrics, Internal Medicine, Immunology,
>>Oncology, etc. We have a best selling author as well, Jesse Stoff MD,
>>"Chronic Fatigue Syndrome." PAAM has been in existence in the USA about
17
>>yrs.
>>
>> The Anthroposophical Nurses Association of America has been around for 11
>>years. We started a certification program in Anthroposophical Nursing two
>>years ago. We have 100 or so members whose practices range from Hospice,
>>Home Health, Professor of Nursing, RN-Doctor of Jurisprudence, Nursing
>>Researcher, Author, RN-Art Therapist, MD Office, Private Duty, Med/Surg,
>>Critical Care, Nurse Practitioner, Nurse Missionary, School Nurse (Public),
>>Nurse Educator, etc... Our membership represents nursing practice
>nationally
>>in areas of specialization.
>>
>> The Artemisia Association for the Anthroposophical Renewal of Healing is
>>comprised of the various organizations. All together we have about 300
>>members. We meet yearly for our Annual Medical Conference. Physicians,
>> therapists and nurses from Canada, South America, Africa, Russia, Europe,
>> Australia and other countries have joined in the past several years.
>
>Many other forms of quackery are highly organized, with their own schools,
>research institutes, and journals. It doesn't mean diddly squat in the real
>scientific world, except as a social phenomenon to be studied.
>
>
Dear Dan,
Ther are many well educated physicians, nurses and therapists throughout the
entire world working out of Anthroposophy who would take offense at your
accusation that Anthroposophical Medicine is quackery! I am one of them.
The social phenomenon replays itself. Those that call names at those they
do not understand usually end up eating much humble pie later on. I would be
happy to witness such an event in your growth and development.
Warmly,
Rise Smythe-Freed
From ??? ??? Tue Feb 06 12:02:23 1996
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From: IReadRudy aol.com
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 12:36:01 -0500
Message-ID: <960206123600_215479859 mail04.mail.aol.com>
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
Subject: Re: WCA Waldorf charter in Gr...
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In a message dated 96-02-06 03:23:21 EST, Frank writes:
>Rise Smythe-Freed wrote:
>
>>From your statements it seems it is all the same to you who teaches
>>your children. It is not all the same to me. I know there are differences
>>between an individual who can regurgitate book knowledge at will and one
>>who reads, observes, thinks, discerns, challenges his own beliefs and
>>perhaps comes to the conclusion every instant that Anthroposophy is
>> their inner path. One is simple intellectualism and one is
intellectualism
>>enobled by love and then acted upon.
>
>I certainly do care about the _behavior_ of those who teach my children and
>I'm willing to tolerate some eccentric beliefs on the teachers' parts if
they
>produce the desired behavior. However, I do not believe that Dan's equation
>of Anthroposohy with religion is frivolous (which is not the same as
agreeing
>that is correct), and I believe that the public schools should err on the
>side of caution until the electorate, their representatives, or the courts
>have adopted a more relaxed attitude toward public funding of religious or
>quasi-religious schools. Having said that, I should add that I believe the
>whole issue would become moot at once if the voucher system was adopted,
>which is why I found the posting to the Waldorf list by a proponent of a
>voucher initiative to be less off the topic than did Michael Kwan (and
Lefty,
>for that matter).
>
>Finally, there is no question that Dan has an axe to grind -- but that is
his
>right. Given that, it is not only reasonable but commendable that he
should,
>in Lefty's words, "make hay while the sun shines." Indeed, so should we
all.
>
>Cordially,
>Frank LaCombe
Dear Frank,
I apologize for the statement, "From your statements it seems it is all the
same to you who teaches your children." Upon closer reading of your post I
was able to understand what you intended.
I do disagree with your (and Dan's)statements regarding the Waldorf School
as a publically funded school. My understanding from the information posted
is the school in question is a Charter School. It can focus on whatever its
approved charter says it can. Attendance at a charter school is not
required. No child has to enroll in that charter school. Only those tax
paying (or not) parents who want to send their child need do so. At least
that is how it works here in Colorado. Charter Schools here are actually
parent initiatives (like most Waldorf Schools!). A proposal is submitted to
the school board including budgets, etc and the school board decides to go
with it or not. It is like a private school in a public school system; more
or less like some of the european countries
While I doubt many on this list will agree, I consider schools based only on
materialistic science to be evangelizing their own brand of religion. I fund
those schools through my tax dollars and so do you. But is'nt it a sneaky
and insidious thing? Now we're paying for the worshippers of modern science
to have their own laboratories of indoctrination.
I would like to see a balance in the public schools. The charter system is
one of the ways this might occur. The voucher system is another and I would
welcome such a discussion on the Waldorf List, or, ( Heaven Help Us!) the WC.
Again, please accept my apology for my careless statement, Frank. I was
obviously out of line.
I will be out of computer contact sporadically over the next several weeks so
my response time will be slow.
Warmly,
Rise Smythe-Freed
From ??? ??? Tue Feb 06 12:02:13 1996
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From: IReadRudy aol.com
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 12:36:02 -0500
Message-ID: <960206123601_215479953 emout07.mail.aol.com>
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
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Dear All,
I will be out of contact with the computer off and on for the next several
weeks so my response time will be slow.
Warmly,
Rise Smythe-Freed
From ??? ??? Tue Feb 06 12:02:16 1996
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From: IReadRudy aol.com
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 12:36:02 -0500
Message-ID: <960206123601_215479882 emout04.mail.aol.com>
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
Subject: Re: WCA Waldorf charter in Grass Valley
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In a message dated 96-02-06 04:28:22 EST, Dan Dugan writes:
>Rise said,
>
>>How very very sad for the informed parents and their children who worked so
>>hard for their dream of Waldorf Education to come to fruition to have their
>>school taken away from them because of the unfounded fears of a few
>>(including you). Your actions, in my opinion, are detestable.
>
>Yes, it is tragic that so many well-meaning people get tangled up with
>institutionalized nonsense and church-state violations.
>
>No one will prevent them from re-opening their private Waldorf school.
>
>I have no fear of the Anthroposophical movement. I oppose those things it
>does that I think are harmful to society.
>
>You call it detestable, I call it public service work.
>
>Sincerely, Dan
Dear Dan,
I still call it detestable,
Warmly,
Rise Smythe-Freed
From ??? ??? Tue Feb 06 12:02:19 1996
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From: IReadRudy aol.com
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 12:36:10 -0500
Message-ID: <960206123606_215479940 emout04.mail.aol.com>
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
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In a message dated 96-02-06 05:28:51 EST, Daniel Sabsay writes:
>But seriously, I am indeed impressed with the legions of Anthroposophical
>missionaries prospering in our midst. History bears bitter witness to the
>desperation and faith which flourishes in eras of plagues such as AIDS.
>
Anthroposophical Medicine began in 1919 or so. No AIDS known of at that
time.
Sister Elizabeth Kenney was laughed at too, but she brought forth what became
known as the "Kenney Treatment" for the treatment of Paralytic Polio. People
such as yourself were, well, skeptical; even physicians and scientists. They
are no longer skeptical. Her method had no basis in science or medical
knowledge available at the time. But she got results. Anthroposophical
Medicine gets results.
Your intimation Anthroposophical Medicine shuns science and current medical
knowledge is unfounded. Anthropsophical medicine and Nursing and the various
therapies are based in current medical knowledge and spiritual science. The
two are compatible. But it would take an open mind to refrain from incessant
analysis and picking it apart to see the whole. After a liver is dissected
and tested to prove the presence or absence of disease, gross anatomical
structure and microscopic structure, etc. it is no longer a liver. It is a
rotting mass of tissue. Anthroposophical Medicine looks at the whole human
being.
I really am quite grateful to you for affording me with an opportunity to
rethink my beliefs.
Critics provide a marvelous service to the object of their criticism!
Warmly,
Rise Smythe-Freed
>Faith is a soothing, but unproductive palliative that is, like a false
>prophet, blissfully forgotten when the real answers are found, as in the
>cases of Polio and Small Pox. Fortunately, there are still people with the
>real courage to accept, often against their "inner path," the humbling
>lessons of real medicine.
>
>By the way, Rise, you might want to tune in NBC Dateline on Wednesday night,
>the 7th (9:00 p.m. most areas). You'll see an up-to-the second example of
>how quickly faith in a widely-believed device called the Quadro can turn
sour
>when a simple test shows how bogus it was. One of our skeptics, MacArthur
>Fellow James Randi did the honors.
>
>
From ??? ??? Tue Feb 06 12:02:51 1996
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Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 10:29:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Lefty Redux
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Dick Oliver writes
>
> On the other hand, Steiner certainly does seem obsessed with his particular
> viewpoint, as most philosophers are. Dan seems even more obsessed with his,
> though. I guess if you only make sense to yourself, you're a "free thinker"
> but if you make sense to a lot of other people, you're a "cult leader."
If Dan is right, and if the Anthroposophists _are_ some sort of cult,
they're a spectacularly inept one. Their numbers are few, they certainly
haven't managed to amass large quantities of money, they seem to have
precious little in the way of "mind control" (unless you count Waldorf
education, as I sometimes suspect Dan does), and their "charismatic
leader" has been dead for over seventy years.
They don't seem to encourage people to avoid their friends or families.
They're certainly not offering any kind of "easy path": they insist that
all you need to do to reach enlightenment is read dense, occasionally
incomprehensible lectures and do meditation exercises for a couple of
lifetimes. In order to join this global conspiracy you need to fill out a
form and send them $200, or less if you can't afford it. The higher
echelons of the cabal press this option on potential recruits with vastly
less enthusiasm than, say, the March of Dimes, the Sierra Club or the Girl
Scouts show in _their_ attempts to shake the public down for cash.
I dunno. This isn't exactly fitting into the Cult Awareness Network
profile. A global conspiracy to take care of the handicapped, grow
organic produce, publish books and run private schools, eh?
--
Lefty Redux [gYon-Pa] ,
C:.M:.C:., D:.O:.D:.
From ??? ??? Tue Feb 06 22:39:21 1996
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Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 12:47:59 -0800
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: lefty apple.com (Lefty)
Subject: Re: WCA the swastika
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>After the split Steiner said critical things about theosophy, but to my
>knowledge he never repudiated any of the lore that he himself taught under
>that name. And regarding using the "Race" and "Sub-Race" terms, I don't
>think it makes much difference since he -means- the same by the bowdlerized
>terms.
and then quotes Steiner as saying:
>"The French nation will be weakened as a race."
This would seem to belie your assertion that Steiner is using the word
"race" in the same way that Hitler did, or in the sense that you're
insisting Steiner intended the term. "The French" are unquestionably not a
"race" in the sense that you're asserting. I can only imagine that your
assertion regarding what Steiner "means" comes from some supersensible
source...
>I've read lots about the Threefold Commonwealth, and I subscribe to "THe
>Threefold Review" and the "Journal of Anthroposophy" to keep current. In
>all this there's practically nothing about democracy. Steiner always says
>that people have equal rights, but he never talks about voting. He
>ridicules parliamentary systems of government. As far as I know,
>Anthroposophical enterprises today are governed totalistically by
>self-perpetuating councils of elders.
Evidently, you've never attended a meeting of a branch of the
Anthroposophical Society or, for that matter, our school's Annual Meeting.
As far as the former is concerned, I have a serious doubt that it's run by
_anyone_, much less a "self-perpetuating councils of elders". Our school
board, as it happens, has the majority of its seats elected by a vote of
the parents. Please provide some examples of totalistically-goverened
Anthroposophical enterprises.
>The best example of Anthroposophical
>political theory in action are the Camphill villages, institutions for the
>developmentally disabled. Do they have elections in Camphill villages?
A red herring. What, precisely, would you propose they have elections
_for_ in a Camphill village?
I'd also note that, regardless of whether "one person, one vote" democracy
is good, bad or indifferent, we are all involved in institutions and
enterprises which are run without the benefit of such democracy. You don't
get to vote for the teachers, principals or administrators in your public
school system; Apple somehow regularly fails to seek out my input on the
vast bulk of corporate decisions it makes; hospitals, newspapers, book
publishers, etc., etc., should all be equally deserving of your scorn here.
--
Lefty [gYon-Pa]
C:.M:.C:., D:.O:.D:.
From ??? ??? Tue Feb 06 22:40:10 1996
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From: DSabsay aol.com
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 19:55:54 -0500
Message-ID: <960206195552_215810237 emout05.mail.aol.com>
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
Subject: Re: WCA Separation of C and S
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On Tue, Feb 6, 1996 7:12 AM PST, Dick Oliver (Cedar Science Center) wrote:
> Materialism is the premise that the child is not sentient--that she is a
> body and only a body, with no consciousness.
This is a remarkably parochial, and self-serving definition of materialism
and sentience.
-- Daniel Sabsay
East Bay Skeptics Society
From ??? ??? Tue Feb 06 22:40:12 1996
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From: DSabsay aol.com
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 19:56:01 -0500
Message-ID: <960206195557_215810301 mail02.mail.aol.com>
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On Mon, Feb 5, 1996 6:08 PM PST Rise Smythe-Freed wrote:
> The Anthroposophical Nurses Association of America has been around for 11
> years. We started a certification program in Anthroposophical Nursing two
> years ago. We have 100 or so members whose practices range from Hospice,
> Home Health [...]
On Tue, Feb 6, 1996 9:36 AM PST, Rise Smythe-Freed quotes me as saying:
>> But seriously, I am indeed impressed with the legions of Anthroposophical
>> missionaries prospering in our midst. History bears bitter witness to the
>> desperation and faith which flourishes in eras of plagues such as AIDS.
and in the same message Rise continues:
> Anthroposophical Medicine began in 1919 or so. No AIDS known of at that
> time. Sister Elizabeth Kenney was laughed at too, but she brought forth
what
> became known as the "Kenney Treatment" for the treatment of Paralytic
Polio.
Not even the flu epidemic of 1918 (or so) that killed 20 million people?
Golly Rise, perhaps I was too subtle in my original statement. I guess it's
too obscure to notice that the enormous success of Anthroposophical Nurses
Association of America ("100 or so members") in the last 11 years is
perfectly correlated with the AIDS epidemic.
Warmly,
Daniel Sabsay, president
East Bay Skeptics Society
From ??? ??? Tue Feb 06 22:40:24 1996
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Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 17:25:06 -0800
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: lefty apple.com (Lefty)
Subject: Re: WCA peat fiber bibs
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Daniel Sabsay writes
>
> But seriously, I am indeed impressed with the legions of Anthroposophical
> missionaries prospering in our midst.
and
>Golly Rise, perhaps I was too subtle in my original statement. I guess it's
>too obscure to notice that the enormous success of Anthroposophical Nurses
>Association of America ("100 or so members") in the last 11 years is
>perfectly correlated with the AIDS epidemic.
Argumentum ad numeram, Mr. Sabsay. I let it slide the first time, but now
you're reiterating this bit of
"reasoning". I expected better of the President of the East Bay Skeptics
Society. Six million Frenchman _can_ be wrong, as I should hardly need to
remind you.
Any luck coming up with evidence to support that "second-class education"
remark?
--
Lefty [gYon-Pa]
C:.M:.C:., D:.O:.D:.
From ??? ??? Tue Feb 06 22:40:48 1996
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Date: Tue, 6 Feb 96 23:42:02 -0500
Message-Id: <9602070442.AA04497 handel.jlc.net>
Subject: Re: (from Val) Re: WCA the swastika Pt. 2
From: Neil Faiman
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>>As for the "only path to truth", that's also absolutely wrong, but Ihave
>>already spent too long here.
>
>I think it's someone else's turn to do research. Please quote Steiner
>saying that other confessions are also paths to spiritual truth.
Ah, I posted this yesterday in another string, but it's more
appropriate here.
To begin with, we would like to make it clear that there is not
just one kind of path of knowledge, but three paths to consider.
Yet this should not be understood as if there were three truths.
There is only one truth, just as the view revealed from the peak of
a mountain is the same for all who stand there. There are,
however,
various ways by which the peak of the mountain can be reached.
Steiner, "The Path of Knowledge and Its Stages: The Rosicrucian
Spiritual Path (collected in _Esoteric Development_, Anthroposophic
Press):
From ??? ??? Tue Feb 06 22:40:52 1996
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Date: Tue, 6 Feb 96 23:52:57 -0500
Message-Id: <9602070452.AA04577 handel.jlc.net>
Subject: Re: WCA Separation of C and S
From: Neil Faiman
To:
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>>Steiner, "The Path of Knowledge and Its Stages: The Rosicrucian
>>Spiritual Path (collected in _Esoteric Development_, Anthroposophic
Press):
>
>Interesting. What's the original lecture date, and what did he say the
>three paths were?
>
>-Dan
October 20, 1906; GA 96.
"One is the Oriental path of Yoga, the second is the Christian-Gnostic
path,
and the third is the Christian-Rosicrucian path. These paths lead to
the
single truth."
(He goes on to state that, while these are all valid,the appropriate
path
to take depends on where you are starting from, and that "For Europeans
in general, the Rosicrucian path is the only right path.")
-Neil
From ??? ??? Tue Feb 06 22:41:07 1996
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From: IReadRudy aol.com
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 00:47:59 -0500
Message-ID: <960207004758_416536406 mail06.mail.aol.com>
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In a message dated 96-02-06 19:56:26 EST, Daniel Sabsay writes:
>
>On Mon, Feb 5, 1996 6:08 PM PST Rise Smythe-Freed wrote:
>
>> The Anthroposophical Nurses Association of America has been around for 11
>> years. We started a certification program in Anthroposophical Nursing two
>> years ago. We have 100 or so members whose practices range from Hospice,
>> Home Health [...]
>
>On Tue, Feb 6, 1996 9:36 AM PST, Rise Smythe-Freed quotes me as saying:
>
>>> But seriously, I am indeed impressed with the legions of Anthroposophical
>>> missionaries prospering in our midst. History bears bitter witness to
the
>>> desperation and faith which flourishes in eras of plagues such as AIDS.
>
> and in the same message Rise continues:
>
>> Anthroposophical Medicine began in 1919 or so. No AIDS known of at that
>> time. Sister Elizabeth Kenney was laughed at too, but she brought forth
>what
>> became known as the "Kenney Treatment" for the treatment of Paralytic
>Polio.
>
>Not even the flu epidemic of 1918 (or so) that killed 20 million people?
>
>Golly Rise, perhaps I was too subtle in my original statement. I guess it's
>too obscure to notice that the enormous success of Anthroposophical Nurses
>Association of America ("100 or so members") in the last 11 years is
>perfectly correlated with the AIDS epidemic.
>
>Warmly,
>
>Daniel Sabsay, president
>East Bay Skeptics Society
Dear Dan (truly the skeptic),
How, then, would you account for the growth of The Physician's Association
for Anthoposophical medicine (PAAM)? It began in 1977 or so. Is that date
also correlated to AIDS? Or how would you account for the growth of
Anthroposophical Medicine in general? It began in 1919 and there are now
well over 500 physicians around the world practicing Anthroposophical
Medicine. (Golly), Daniel... Many of them were Anthroposophical Physicians
before 1970. I don't recall a huge scare disease-wise at that time. Perhaps
you can find one though, but that won't prove your allegations of a
correlation. "...is perfectly correlated...," I think not. My Webster's
says correlation is, "to establish a systematic connection; interdependence,
or reciprocal relationship." So far you've done none of that.
You, on the one hand, have been quite eager to criticize others for following
without thinking (I think that is the point you are trying to make) yet you
are as easily into the same sort of blind faith with your attempt at proving
a relationship between epidemics and Anthroposophical Medicine ( and other
Threads). I suppose you will only see what you believe. You could of course
say the same thing about me, but I am mainstream science educated registered
nurse and I am mainstream science credentialed. I also have found a way of
assisting patients that mainstream nursing and medicine has not as yet
formally recognized.
One of if not the first Anthroposophical Nurse in the USA worked in the
polio wards. She reports that even though she and the other nurses and MDs
were of the ages most at risk none of them contracted polio, paralytic or
other, even though they were working with patients who were "contagious."
This was before the Salk or Sabin vaccine.
(They weren't even wearing peat bibs!). Fear is a mode of transmission of
disease. She says, "we did not have one thought of fear about getting the
disease. They were our patients. They needed our help. Even though there
was such fear of polio (in society at the time), we had none." I hope if I
am ever ill I have a nurse like her.
Warmly,
Rise Smythe-Freed RN, BS
Anthroposophical Nursing
From ??? ??? Tue Feb 06 22:41:04 1996
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From: DSabsay aol.com
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 00:48:07 -0500
Message-ID: <960207004806_216064310 mail04.mail.aol.com>
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
Subject: WCA Anthroposophical Medicine
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On Tue, Feb 6, 1996 9:36 AM PST, Rise Smythe-Freed wrote:
> Your [Daniel Sabsay's] intimation [that] Anthroposophical Medicine shuns
science
> and current medical knowledge is unfounded. Anthropsophical medicine and
> Nursing and the various therapies are based in current medical knowledge
and
> spiritual science. The two are compatible.
Can Rise, or someone else familiar with Anthroposophical Medicine give me
some additional information?
1) Does A.M. accept that AIDS is caused by HIV?
2) If a vaccine is developed that is believed by mainstream medicine to
prevent AIDS, will Anthroposophical nurses and doctors distribute and
administer it?
-- Daniel Sabsay, president
East Bay Skeptics Society
From ??? ??? Wed Feb 07 01:35:31 1996
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Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 23:21:20 -0700
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From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: WCA Re: Val's comments on light
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Dan,
Please post the following to the list:
--------------------------------------------------
Dear subscribers,
Dan has written on Feb 6 three mails; two of them addressed to the list
with copies to me, and a third, with the above subject, only addressed to me.
I have already captured those 3 mails, and will work calmly, off-line upon
them. An answer on every point will follow in due time. It will again
show how wrong Dan is; it will even show that he does not read carefully
his own citations.
Best regards,
Val.
Valdemar W.Setzer
vwsetzer ime.usp.br
Married to the school doctor,
former teacher and parent of
Escola Rudolf Steiner de S\~ao Paulo, Brazil
From ??? ??? Wed Feb 07 01:35:34 1996
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Date: Tue, 6 Feb 96 23:21:10 PST
From: "Ida Oberman"
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REPLY TO 02/06/96 12:18 FROM Ida.Oberman "Ida Oberman": (from Val) Re: WCA the
swastika
Dear Val and dear all:
A quick but heartfelt response to your goodbye note, thinking you
may still check in to see if people'lll miss you.
Your voice will be missed by readers such as myself.
Why?
Your contributions have been circumspect, well -
researched, as that of many in this group, but also quite respectful
and devoid of an , shall we say, element of acidity, that to an
outsider at times seems to mark some of the discourse here.
As for all, I have thought on ocasion what is gained by having the
exchange conducted be at a pitch that suggests an ad hominem element
in disputes that could also be kept objective. Or could they?
Discussions of faith have historically been passionate to the point
of rabid: we can remember the colorful examples from cruscades to
burnings. Perhaps the eve of a new millenium invites a new tone.
For those that disagree with this, if you disagree, then what for
you is gained by conducting discourse with that alement of ad
hominem acidity? A number of readerx might be interested.
Respectuflly,
Ida Oberman
ida.o forsythe.stanford.edu
To: Ida.Oberman
cc: WALDORF-CRITRICS BLOB.BEST.NET
From ??? ??? Wed Feb 07 01:43:05 1996
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Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 01:36:34 -0700
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: WCA Separation of C and S
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Neil, you quoted Steiner saying there were "three paths to truth, and I asked,
>>Interesting. What's the original lecture date, and what did he say the
>>three paths were?
>>
>>-Dan
>
>October 20, 1906; GA 96.
>
>"One is the Oriental path of Yoga, the second is the Christian-Gnostic
>path,
>and the third is the Christian-Rosicrucian path. These paths lead to
>the
>single truth."
>
>(He goes on to state that, while these are all valid,the appropriate
>path
>to take depends on where you are starting from, and that "For Europeans
>in general, the Rosicrucian path is the only right path.")
>
> -Neil
Ok. This doesn't seem to include Buddhism, or Methodism, or Unitarianism, or...
Q.E.D.
-Dan
From ??? ??? Wed Feb 07 01:43:08 1996
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Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 01:36:42 -0700
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: WCA Waldorf charter in Grass Valley
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Lefty, thanks for correcting and filling in details. You said:
>According to the principal, while the philosophy and pedagogy of the Twin
>Ridges school is drawn from Steiner, "anthroposophy is definitely neither
>promoted nor required". In a series of "vision meetings" to determine the
>general direction and approach of the school, the decision was made that,
>among other things, the periodic festivals need not be themed on a
>Christian basis in favor of a more multicultural approach. However, in
>this last year (the school's first year of operation, by the way), mostly
>owing to time and energy constraints stemming from the school's rapid
>growth (from three classes to eight in a single year), the teachers "fell
>back on what they knew" and the festivals were undertaken in a fairly
>standard fashion, which caused some consternation among some parents.
Excuse me, isn't there a contradiction in "the philosophy and pedagogy...is
drawn from Steiner" and "anthroposophy is definitely neither promoted nor
required"?
So the parents were promised non-sectarian festivals and the teachers did
the Anthroposophical thing anyway. The weak excuse "fell back on what they
knew" implies that the teachers are Anthropsophists, doesn't it?
>Dan fails to specify what behavior on the part of "the teachers" (all of
>them?) led the parents to their surprising conclusion.
I'll post some documentation of the complaints as soon as I have a chance
to scan it.
>Based on what I'm hearing, the parents who have come to this conclusion are
>an unrepresentative minority among the parent body. I was given the strong
>impression that the actual basis for their action stems more from
>interpersonal problems between a small group of parents and particular
>members of the faculty than from any "religious cultism".
Certainly a minority. What does "unrepresentative" mean? That they don't
represent themselves? The same attitude you're showing was given to me at
the San Francisco Waldorf School. If I had problems with the school, it
must have been that I was disagreeable, not that there could be anything
wrong with the school.
>The principal states that "no way we're going to condone religiosity in the
>schools". but also points out that, contrary to the beliefs of some, it is
>not a requirement in the state of California that religion should never be
>mentioned in a public school. What _is_ required is a balanced approach,
>an approach which the school is working out with parents, faculty and the
>school board.
The phony "balanced approach" has been worked out all the way to the
supreme court in the case of creationism. Public schools can't teach
religious dogma as a "balance" to science.
-Dan
From ??? ??? Wed Feb 07 01:43:22 1996
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Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 01:36:51 -0700
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: WCA Waldorf charter in Grass Valley
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Rise, you commented to Frank,
>I do indeed see the difference. There are no Waldorf Schools with out
>Anthroposophy. Children should not hear the word "Anthroposophy" until about
>the 12th grader, or not at all. This is well understood among trained
>Waldorf School Teachers; a background in Anthroposophy facilitates this
>understanding. The College of Teachers "model" is what makes a Waldorf
>School a Waldorf School. An intellectual awareness of information about the
>pedagogy is hardly adequate resource with which to teach. Perhaps these
>teachers are Society members; how better to be supported spiritually for the
>task that awaits them every day? What is the point of having a public school
>"masquerading" as a Waldorf School? The parents want Waldorf Education for
>their children; not a kind-of-a-Waldorf-sort-of school.
"There are no Waldorf Schools with out Anthroposophy. Children should not
hear the word "Anthroposophy" until about the 12th grade, or not at all."
Does this seem honest to you?
"What is the point of having a public school "masquerading" as a Waldorf
School?" It would appear that you should be of the faction in Anthroposophy
(see Gary Lamb's articles) that opposes public Waldorf schools, then, since
it is impossible to do Waldorf *without* Anthroposophy, and it is
impossible (by law) to do a public school in the U.S. *with* Anthroposophy.
>I know there are differences
>between an individual who can regurgitate book knowledge at will and one who
>reads, observes, thinks, discerns, challenges his own beliefs and perhaps
>comes to the conclusion every instant that Anthroposophy is their inner path.
> One is simple intellectualism and one is intellectualism enobled by love and
>then acted upon.
Rise, you are setting up a false dichotomy here. No one wants "an
individual who can regurgitate book knowledge", nor is that "simple
intellectualism."
-Dan
From ??? ??? Wed Feb 07 01:43:16 1996
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Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 01:37:00 -0700
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: WCA Separation of C and S
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Dick, you said,
>On the other hand, Steiner certainly does seem obsessed with his particular
>viewpoint, as most philosophers are. Dan seems even more obsessed with his,
>though. I guess if you only make sense to yourself, you're a "free thinker"
>but if you make sense to a lot of other people, you're a "cult leader."
A good point to discuss. A capable and ethical person with charisma might
"make sense to a lot of other people." In that case we might term the
following a "school of thought." When the relationship of the leader to the
followers includes totalistic devotion, and significant deception and
manipulation, I would rather call it a cult.
IMHO Anthroposophy was a cult whilst Steiner was alive, as Christianity was
while Jesus lived. Christianity has had time to evolve into legitimate
religions with a few cults sprinkled around the periphery; Anthroposphy is
just getting started. At this stage I characterize it as "a cult-like
religious sect."
-Dan
From ??? ??? Wed Feb 07 01:43:29 1996
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Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 01:37:08 -0700
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: WCA Separation of C and S
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Dick Oliver, you said,
>Waldorf education begins when a group of parents and teachers believe that
>we mere mortals can in fact percieve and agree upon the essentials of what
>happens to a human child growing up. Not just the changes in the child's
>body, but the development of the actual, sentient human being herself. Her
>reality, her essential nature, her "spirit" if you will. (Or even if you
>won't. )
Waldorf education is a whole lot more specific than that; it's based on
Steiner's theory of reincarnation in stages. IMHO this is doctrine, not
knowledge of human nature.
>Materialism is the premise that the child is not sentient--that she is a
>body and only a body, with no consciousness. And no, frankly, I don't want
>my child's teacher--or any other teacher, for that matter--to be working
>from such a crazy and dangerous premise. If that's religion, then I think
>religion should be in public schools. But it has nothing to do with churches
>or states.
I won't own Steiner's nasty "materialist" label. I profess naturalistic
philosophy and the ethics of secular humanism. Do you think anybody in this
discussion regards a child as "a body and only a body"?
Sincerely, Dan
From ??? ??? Wed Feb 07 01:43:12 1996
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Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 01:37:15 -0700
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: Re: WCA peat fiber bibs
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Rise, you said to Dan Sabsay,
>Your intimation Anthroposophical Medicine shuns science and current medical
>knowledge is unfounded. Anthropsophical medicine and Nursing and the various
>therapies are based in current medical knowledge and spiritual science. The
>two are compatible. But it would take an open mind to refrain from incessant
>analysis and picking it apart to see the whole. After a liver is dissected
>and tested to prove the presence or absence of disease, gross anatomical
>structure and microscopic structure, etc. it is no longer a liver. It is a
>rotting mass of tissue. Anthroposophical Medicine looks at the whole human
>being.
>From my point of view, "current medical knowledge and spiritual science"
are not compatible. Anthropsophists say that in order to keep their
licenses, but the things they preach, and I presume practice, are directly
opposed to medical science.
>After a liver is dissected
>and tested to prove the presence or absence of disease, gross anatomical
>structure and microscopic structure, etc. it is no longer a liver. It is a
>rotting mass of tissue. Anthroposophical Medicine looks at the whole human
>being.
I think this statement is an example of Steinerist anti-intellectualism;
real knowledge is denigrated in favor of a pretense that Anthroposophists
don't need to be concerned with such details.
Sincerely, Dan
From ??? ??? Wed Feb 07 01:47:14 1996
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Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 01:46:08 -0700
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: WCA democracy
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Lefty, you quoted me (Dan),
>>I've read lots about the Threefold Commonwealth, and I subscribe to "THe
>>Threefold Review" and the "Journal of Anthroposophy" to keep current. In
>>all this there's practically nothing about democracy. Steiner always says
>>that people have equal rights, but he never talks about voting. He
>>ridicules parliamentary systems of government. As far as I know,
>>Anthroposophical enterprises today are governed totalistically by
>>self-perpetuating councils of elders.
and commented:
>Evidently, you've never attended a meeting of a branch of the
>Anthroposophical Society or, for that matter, our school's Annual Meeting.
>As far as the former is concerned, I have a serious doubt that it's run by
>_anyone_, much less a "self-perpetuating councils of elders". Our school
>board, as it happens, has the majority of its seats elected by a vote of
>the parents. Please provide some examples of totalistically-goverened
>Anthroposophical enterprises.
Have you ever attended a College of Teachers meeting?
>>The best example of Anthroposophical
>>political theory in action are the Camphill villages, institutions for the
>>developmentally disabled. Do they have elections in Camphill villages?
>
>A red herring. What, precisely, would you propose they have elections
>_for_ in a Camphill village?
Camphill villages are self-governed threefold societies, right? So how do
they make decisions?
-Dan
From ??? ??? Wed Feb 07 19:24:37 1996
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Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 12:11:54 +0200
Message-Id: <96020712115462 psiclb.psi.ch>
From: Stephan.Clerc psi.ch (STEPHAN H.-R. CLERC)
To: WALDORF-CRITICS blob.best.net, VMSETZER ime.usp.br
Subject: WCA The recent discussions (Achtung with german parts)
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Dear Pioneers of the Anthroposophic Cyberspace!
The serious lack of knowledge in the recent discussions (eg. Goethe/Newton) as
well as the ignorance of even fundamental facts like the existence of the
numerous anthroposophical institutions and hospitals is rather symptomatic for
this place.
As a physicist I come sometimes across with crazy peoples who claim that
for example the speed of light is not c, Einstein was not right, Quantum-
mechanics is bull-shit or that there are perpetuum mobiles possible and so on.
A crazy famous and entusiastic man here in Basel (William Burkard) even goes
into physics lectures and distributes his pamphlets to all interested students.
As an open minded newbie-student one does, of course, at first not reject
strange opinions but with time, in the hihger grades one becomes soon tired in
such discussions because one percepts that the enthusiastic maniacs have
regularly a serious lack of even the easiest physics fundamentals.
So this example illustrates that if one wishes to discuss on a rather serious
level in science it is needed to know the basics! Or did you ever meet a
physician discussing with a non-physician about the advantages and disadvantages
of an operation of for example gynaecomasty??
Unfortunately I cannot prevent more and more to see some similarities in the
also enthusiastic disputations among opponents _as well as_ Steiner-fans.
So both the opponents and admirers of Anthroposophy with its kernel, the
Freie Hochschule fuer Geisteswissenschaft in Dornach are not able to
discuss professionally about any facts told in the LECTURE cycles without
a certain background.
Also Steiner was aware of this problem and to prevent the science of the
spiritual world against any unfruitful conversations he writes in the "Statuten
of the General Anthr. Society" (Paragraph 8) that he will never discuss with
peoples about any content of his LECTURES unless they have gained a certain
level of knowledge which can be studied (sometimes by hard working) in his
W R I T T E N B O O K S. -- This rule is not strange then it's part of any
academic environnement.
Paragraph 8 also called "Hochschulvermerk" was printed earlier at the beginning
of every lecture cycle on the first page. Unfortunately later the publishers
did omit this Vermerk due to some internal conflicts...
The german text of it:
-----------------------------begin Paragraph 8---------------------------------
8. Alle Publikationen der Gesellschaft werden oeffentlich in der Art wie
diejenigen anderer oeffentlicher Gesellschaften sein [*]. Von dieser
Oeffentlichkeit werden auch die Publikationen der Freien Hochschule fuer
Geisteswissenschaft keine Ausnahme machen; doch nimmt die Leitung der Schule
fuer sich in Anspruch, dass sei von vornherein jedem Urteile ueber d i e s e
Schriften die Berechtigung bestreitet, das nicht auf die Schulung gestuetzt ist,
aus der sie hervorgegangen sind. Sie wird in diesem Sinne keinem Urteil
Berechtigung zuerkennen, das nicht auf entsprechende Vorstudien gestuetzt ist,
wie das ja auch sonst in der anerkannten wissenschaftlichen Welt ueblich ist.
Deshalb werden die Schriften der Freien Hochschule fuer Geisteswissenschaft den
folgenden Vermerk tragen:
<< Als Manuskript fuer die Angehoerigen der Freien Hochschule fuer
Geisteswissenschaft, Goetheanum Klasse... gedruckt. Es wird niemand
fuer die Schriften ein kompetentes Urteil zugestanden, der nicht die
von dieser Schule geltend gemachte Vor-Erkenntnis durch sie oder auf
eine von ihr selbst als gleichbedeutend anerkannte Weise erworben hat.
Andere Beurteilungen werden insofern abgelehnt, als die Verfassser der
entsprechenden Schriften sich in keine Diskussion ueber dieselben
einlassen.>>
-----------------
[*] Oeffentlich sind auch die Bedingungen, unter denen man zur Schulung kommt,
geschildert worden und werden auch weiter veroeffentlicht werden.
---------------------end Paragraph 8--------------------------------------------
---
Stephan.Clerc psi.ch
http://www1.psi.ch/~clerc/test.html
From ??? ??? Wed Feb 07 19:25:43 1996
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Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 12:34:38 -0500
From: Lee Story USG
Message-Id: <9602071734.AA30533 tlaser.zk3.dec.com>
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"Ida Oberman" writes:
> As for all, I have thought on ocasion what is gained by having the
> exchange conducted be at a pitch that suggests an ad hominem element
> in disputes that could also be kept objective. Or could they?
> Discussions of faith have historically been passionate to the point
> of rabid: we can remember the colorful examples from cruscades to
> burnings. Perhaps the eve of a new millenium invites a new tone.
> For those that disagree with this, if you disagree, then what for
> you is gained by conducting discourse with that alement of ad
> hominem acidity? A number of readers might be interested.
I doubt that any of us are afraid that Dan, Lefty, Suzanne, Dick, Rise
or anyone else on this list is about to run anyone through with swords
or set anyone on fire! The best arguments (and some lousy ones too)
seem bound to come from passionate adherents. For myself, I've
greatly appreciated the way Lefty, in particular, has had the quick
wit to challenge me when I've made rash statements.
I admit to a certain visceral negative reaction to part of what some
(not all) Anthroposophists and Waldorf parents espouse (and thus a
limited disagreement with the foundations of Waldorf schooling): I see
a tendency to prefer Steiner's "clairvoyance" to one's own
observations, and "collegial" educational solutions issued from a
consensus of senior teachers rather than individual (varied)
decisions. These may be symptomatic of a preference for comfortable
agreement rather than intellectual tug-of-war. And I get the feeling
that children's lessons are carefully arranged to insulate them from
conflict and debate, usually with the excuse (and I think it's just
that) that they're "not ready", that their souls haven't reached some
sort of plateau. Frequent references to "dead" intellectualism (and
now the "acidity" of argument) reinforce my impressions on these
things.
But Steiner himself seems remarkably pugnacious (and often
enjoyably witty even where less than convincing) in his arguments:
look at the way he chops at "naive realism", "metaphysical realism",
"metaphysical idealism", and so forth in _Philosophy of Spiritual
Activity_, or at empirical tests of clairvoyance in _Theosophy_!
So perhaps this unusual strain of politesse comes into recent
anthropop/'dorf thought from someone other than Steiner? Other,
non-theosophical contacts with "New Thought" and "New Age"? The
general tendency of people searching for more humane educational
methods to be gentle and protective? Or maybe people misapply
Steiner's notion of a threefold social order, by not placing education
partly in the "rights" area (and thus open to the messiness of
democracy)?
By the way, does anyone here know whether there are recorded
discussions, arguments, debates, or written exchange of correspondence
between Rudolf Steiner and people with very different views? (How I'd
love to find an exchange with Bertrand Russell on philosophy or
politics or ... education!) There seem to be endless books, lecture
texts and lecture notes. Did he make time in this busy schedule to
listen and respond, and listen again? Are there "collected letters of
R.Steiner," with his correspondants' letters also presented?
And a related question: Is it known what Steiner read and studied
(especially later in life when his educational ideas became fully
formed), beyond the Bible, Goethe, Blavatsky, Hartmann? Did he study
Rousseau on education? Wm James? Dewey? Did he speak with anyone
well known for their social, political or educational theories? If
so, did they give their impressions of him?
Cheers, --lee
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Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 09:37:32 -0800
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: lefty apple.com (Lefty)
Subject: Re: WCA Waldorf charter in Grass Valley
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Dan Dugan writes
>
>Lefty, thanks for correcting and filling in details.
Oh, you're entirely welcome, by all means.
>Excuse me, isn't there a contradiction in "the philosophy and pedagogy...is
>drawn from Steiner" and "anthroposophy is definitely neither promoted nor
>required"?
Not that I can see. While the teaching philosophy and methods are drawn
from Steiner's writings, anthroposophy is neither taught to the students,
nor required of the parents, nor (presumably in this case) of the teachers.
You yourself noted that at least one of the teachers at Twin Ridges was
not "Waldorf trained". I would further assume that in a public school,
chartered or not, there can be no requirement that membership in the
Anthroposophical Society be a hiring criterion.
>So the parents were promised non-sectarian festivals and the teachers did
>the Anthroposophical thing anyway. The weak excuse "fell back on what they
>knew" implies that the teachers are Anthropsophists, doesn't it?
Not at all, it says that, in the absence of having been able to come up
with "non-sectarian festivals" in the time available, the teachers instead
took up the "standard" festivals which have been celebrated at Waldorf
schools for years. Presumably the other option would have been no
festivals at all, a poor alternative in my opinion.
>>Based on what I'm hearing, the parents who have come to this conclusion are
>>an unrepresentative minority among the parent body. I was given the strong
>>impression that the actual basis for their action stems more from
>>interpersonal problems between a small group of parents and particular
>>members of the faculty than from any "religious cultism".
>
>Certainly a minority. What does "unrepresentative" mean? That they don't
>represent themselves?
No, that they don't represent the body of parents at the school.
>The same attitude you're showing was given to me at
>the San Francisco Waldorf School. If I had problems with the school, it
>must have been that I was disagreeable, not that there could be anything
>wrong with the school.
Dan, if a relatively small group of parents have problems with the school
and the majority of parents there do not, on what basis do you insist that
the school should change to suit the needs of the minority, particularly
given that this is a school which is attended by choice rather than
necessity? What happened to your drum-beating in favor of democracy? Do
you only have a problem with a minority dictating the the majority when
matters are not going your way? I guess the problem with
"self-perpetuating councils of elders" arise when you happen not to be one
of the elders.
>>The principal states that "no way we're going to condone religiosity in the
>>schools". but also points out that, contrary to the beliefs of some, it is
>>not a requirement in the state of California that religion should never be
>>mentioned in a public school. What _is_ required is a balanced approach,
>>an approach which the school is working out with parents, faculty and the
>>school board.
>
>The phony "balanced approach" has been worked out all the way to the
>supreme court in the case of creationism. Public schools can't teach
>religious dogma as a "balance" to science.
Straw man. You're not addressing the point, that being the requirements
which must be satisfied if some expression of spirituality is to be
introduced into public schools. No one has argued that religion should be
used to "balance" science: the issue is the introduction of multiple
expressions of spirituality in order to balance them one against another so
as not to place the school in a position of furthering a particular
religion.
--
Lefty [gYon-Pa]
C:.M:.C:., D:.O:.D:.
From ??? ??? Wed Feb 07 19:25:00 1996
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Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 11:52:21 -0600
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: Dick Oliver
Subject: Re: WCA Separation of C and S
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>> Materialism is the premise that the child is not sentient--that she is a
>> body and only a body, with no consciousness.
>
>This is a remarkably parochial, and self-serving definition of materialism
>and sentience.
Better one will be welcomed!
--Dick Oliver ----------
Cedar Science Center
Wolcott, Vermont USA
From ??? ??? Wed Feb 07 19:25:06 1996
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Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 11:52:23 -0600
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: Dick Oliver
Subject: Re: WCA Separation of C and S
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>Ok. This doesn't seem to include Buddhism, or Methodism, or Unitarianism, or...
>Q.E.D.
The "three paths", as I understand them, were intended to be general
categories into which the specific sects you mention generally fit.
Buddhism, in this sense, would fall under the "oriental path", Methodism (to
the extent which is strives toward the discovery of truth) under the
"rosicrucian path". I don't know enough about Unitarianism (a relatively new
thing, right?) to know if it is gnostic or rosicrucian in its approach.
I think Steiner's point was pretty simple--that there are three basic
approaches to knowledge, and he was aware that his particular approach
couldn't possibly embody all three of these at once. So he tried to explain
why he picked the one he did, and why this shouldn't invalidate or
contradict the findings of others who chose a different one.
--Dick Oliver ----------
Cedar Science Center
Wolcott, Vermont USA
From ??? ??? Wed Feb 07 19:25:13 1996
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Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 11:52:27 -0600
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: Dick Oliver
Subject: Re: WCA Waldorf charter in Grass Valley
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>The same attitude you're showing was given to me at
>the San Francisco Waldorf School. If I had problems with the school, it
>must have been that I was disagreeable, not that there could be anything
>wrong with the school.
The annual reports of the Waldorf school you're referring to seem quite open
about the fact that there have been many problems in recent years.
But that hardly seems to justify "being disagreable" on purpose. Being right
isn't a substitute for being pleasant and kind, I'm afraid.
--Dick Oliver ----------
Cedar Science Center
Wolcott, Vermont USA
From ??? ??? Wed Feb 07 19:25:09 1996
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Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 11:52:31 -0600
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: Dick Oliver
Subject: Re: WCA Waldorf charter in Grass Valley
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>The phony "balanced approach" has been worked out all the way to the
>supreme court in the case of creationism. Public schools can't teach
>religious dogma as a "balance" to science.
Okay, time to get direct. Atheism and materialism _are_ religious dogma.
Physical science does not and cannot support or refute the existance of
non-physical beings.
And you'be been quite clear that when you say "science" you mean atheism and
materialism. Your principal complaint seems to be that your religion doesn't
get as much attention in Waldorf schools as the other religions, and it
isn't taught as "THE TRUTH" as you think it should be. But the fact of the
matter is, Dan, that the traditions and cultures surrounding Christianity,
Buddhism, Hinduism, and Islam have been and continue to be the central
elements of most human life. Until very recently, Atheism--and for that
matter, physical science--has only very recently become a major part of
human knowledge and human experience.
The idea that children can or should truly understand physical science and
atheism without having first experienced the cultural, practical, and
intellectual foundations out of which they arose strikes me as the most
parochial and sectarian position of all.
I agree with you that too much emphasis is given on the gnostic Christian
viewpoint in many Waldorf schools. But the correct antidote to this is not
to substitute a heavily slanted emphasis on the materialist-atheistic
viewpoint. Teachers need to be able to "step out of" their own personal
belief system and look at the diversity and variety of human experience and
belief in the real world.
So do you.
--Dick Oliver ----------
Cedar Science Center
Wolcott, Vermont USA
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Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 11:53:05 -0600
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: Dick Oliver
Subject: Re: WCA Separation of C and S
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>Do you think anybody in this
>discussion regards a child as "a body and only a body"?
Please do explain what you see in a child besides a physical body.
--Dick Oliver ----------
Cedar Science Center
Wolcott, Vermont USA
From ??? ??? Wed Feb 07 19:26:05 1996
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Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 13:08:31 -0700
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: slainson rmii.com (Suzanne Lainson)
Subject: Re: WCA Separation of C and S
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>Please do explain what you see in a child besides a physical body.
A personality.
Suzanne
Suzanne Lainson SportsTrust Integrated Marketing
slainson rmii.com P.O. Box 2071 Sports and Event Marketing
303 473-9884 Boulder, CO 80306 Online Marketing
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Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 13:23:41 -0700
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From: slainson rmii.com (Suzanne Lainson)
Subject: WCA Re: Separation of C and S
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>
>"One is the Oriental path of Yoga, the second is the Christian-Gnostic
>path,
>and the third is the Christian-Rosicrucian path. These paths lead to
>the
>single truth."
For anyone who is really interested in these matters, I highly recommend
the magazine Gnosis. The authors and interviewers are knowledgeable about
non-mainstream religions, but do not take either an attack or advocacy
stance. Most of the articles are footnoted and there seems to be a sincere
effort to bring some scholarly standards to the study of "New Age"
religions and philosophy.
Suzanne
Suzanne Lainson SportsTrust Integrated Marketing
slainson rmii.com P.O. Box 2071 Sports and Event Marketing
303 473-9884 Boulder, CO 80306 Online Marketing
From ??? ??? Wed Feb 07 19:26:33 1996
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Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 13:12:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Lefty Redux
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Subject: Re: WCA Separation of C and S
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On Wed, 7 Feb 1996, Suzanne Lainson wrote:
>
> >Please do explain what you see in a child besides a physical body.
>
> A personality.
A "personality"? What's that?
David K. Reynolds, in his book _A Handbook for Constructive Living_, says
that the idea of "personality" is simply a shorthand way of summing up
what we have done, and denies that any such thing exists as a discrete
entity.
I wonder whether you could demonstrate the existence of this supposed
"personality". I'd suggest that your assertion that such a thing exists
is unfalsifiable and therefore cannot be an object of scientific
discourse.
--
Lefty Redux [gYon-Pa] ,
C:.M:.C:., D:.O:.D:.
From ??? ??? Wed Feb 07 19:26:44 1996
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Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 16:27:28 -0500
From: Lee Story USG
Message-Id: <9602072127.AA16025 tlaser.zk3.dec.com>
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Dick, I wouldn't normally trouble to defend Dan's comments---he can
put his own foot in his mouth---but in this case I don't think you're
up to your usual standard.
Dick Oliver writes:
> Okay, time to get direct. Atheism and materialism _are_ religious dogma.
I'd agree about atheism. It's an assertion of the unknowable, and
must be taken on "faith". But materialism is not what I'd call
"religion", unless you really want to blur the terms. It's rather a
philosophical position, a subspecies of "realism", which contrasts
with "idealism" (and, to be more technical, also with
"phenomenalism"). Just as idealism asserts the primacy of thought
over the apparent "physical", so materialism asserts the physical
nature of thought. These can easily be viewed as different
perspectives on the same existence. Nelson Goodman's _Ways of
Worldmaking_ is the classic presentation of this viewpoint. (I just
happened to be reading some of that, and Putnam's critique of it, when
your message arrived.)
As to your previous parody of materialism as "the child is only a
body": competent philosophers have asserted (generalizations of) "_I_
am only a body" many times. Russell's famous comment on the
immortality of consciousness comes to mind. It's not the reductio
that you (and most idealists) seem to think.
> Physical science does not and cannot support or refute the existance of
> non-physical beings.
This is either to be taken as a quasi-tautology ("physical" and
"non-physical" taken by definition as totally disjoint subject
matter), or you're going to have to supply evidence. And I rather
doubt that there is any.
> The idea that children can or should truly understand physical science and
> atheism without having first experienced the cultural, practical, and
> intellectual foundations out of which they arose strikes me as the most
> parochial and sectarian position of all.
I think we have something related to Zeno's "paradox" here. How do I get
started "knowing"? By first "knowing" all of intellectual history...?
"Clairvoyantly" or by "intuition"? (Gotta bootstrap somehow, so may
as well follow Steiner.) Cheers, --lee
From ??? ??? Wed Feb 07 19:26:41 1996
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Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 16:40:23 -0500
From: Lee Story USG
Message-Id: <9602072140.AA29520 tlaser.zk3.dec.com>
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Lefty Redux writes:
> A "personality"? What's that?
>
> David K. Reynolds, in his book _A Handbook for Constructive Living_, says
> that the idea of "personality" is simply a shorthand way of summing up
> what we have done, and denies that any such thing exists as a discrete
> entity.
>
> I wonder whether you could demonstrate the existence of this supposed
> "personality". I'd suggest that your assertion that such a thing exists
> is unfalsifiable and therefore cannot be an object of scientific
> discourse.
Reynolds's is probably a good dictionary definition of the most common
meaning of the word. Less often, though closely related,
"personality" can mean approximately "what you are to other people",
and "character" what you are to yourself. Seems pretty close to
Steiner's "soul" and "spirit". I for one am sorry he chose religious
rather than secular/psychological terms.
In either case, as long as the existence of sentient beings and a flow
of "time" are parts of our theory, the notion that we have had effects
of various sorts (have "done" things) can be fit into it, and the
result can be tested. This is an interesting boundary where Popper's
"falsification" isn't quite the whole story about scientific
experiment! What we're looking for here is "predictive power".
(I hope this isn't too obscure, but it isn't easy to talk about!)
Cheers, --lee
From ??? ??? Wed Feb 07 19:26:52 1996
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Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 14:28:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Lefty Redux
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Subject: Re: WCA Separation of C and S
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On Wed, 7 Feb 1996, Lee Story USG wrote:
>
> Lefty Redux writes:
> > A "personality"? What's that?
> >
> > David K. Reynolds, in his book _A Handbook for Constructive Living_, says
> > that the idea of "personality" is simply a shorthand way of summing up
> > what we have done, and denies that any such thing exists as a discrete
> > entity.
> >
> > I wonder whether you could demonstrate the existence of this supposed
> > "personality". I'd suggest that your assertion that such a thing exists
> > is unfalsifiable and therefore cannot be an object of scientific
> > discourse.
>
> Reynolds's is probably a good dictionary definition of the most common
> meaning of the word. Less often, though closely related,
> "personality" can mean approximately "what you are to other people",
> and "character" what you are to yourself. Seems pretty close to
> Steiner's "soul" and "spirit". I for one am sorry he chose religious
> rather than secular/psychological terms.
Steiner didn't choose "religious" terms as opposed to secular ones. There
is, I believe, no word in German corresponding to the English word "mind";
the concept is subsumed in the two words _seele_ ("soul") and _geist_
("spirit"). "Soul" is connected with feelings and emotions, while
"spirit" is associated with thinking. I don't personally see the
resonance between these two concepts and "personality" or "character".
(We do, on occasion, say that a particular person has character, or a
particular activity builds character, don't we?)
> In either case, as long as the existence of sentient beings and a flow
> of "time" are parts of our theory, the notion that we have had effects
> of various sorts (have "done" things) can be fit into it, and the
> result can be tested. This is an interesting boundary where Popper's
> "falsification" isn't quite the whole story about scientific
> experiment! What we're looking for here is "predictive power".
I'm not sure I follow the beginning of this paragraph; I'll grant you
time, but at the moment, I think "sentient beings" are up in the air
along with "personality". While people unquestionably "do things", it's
unclear to me what "result" you're proposing to test. Nobody denies that
we "have had effects of various sorts"; it's unclear where this
_soi-disant_ "personality" fits into things. Occam's Razor might well
apply here.
I'd be interested in hearing from Mr. Dugan or Mr. Sabsay just how far
their skepticism reaches. I'd assert that not only "personality" but
"sentience" are unfalsifiable in Popperian terms. Would the skeptics
assert that such things exist in spite of this? If so, on what basis?
--
Lefty Redux [gYon-Pa] ,
C:.M:.C:., D:.O:.D:.
From ??? ??? Wed Feb 07 19:45:51 1996
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Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 19:37:53 -0700
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
Subject: (from Lefty) Re: WCA democracy
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[re-posted by Dan because of a server problem]
Dan Dugan writes
>
>Lefty, you quoted me (Dan),
>
>>>I've read lots about the Threefold Commonwealth, and I subscribe to "THe
>>>Threefold Review" and the "Journal of Anthroposophy" to keep current. In
>>>all this there's practically nothing about democracy. Steiner always says
>>>that people have equal rights, but he never talks about voting. He
>>>ridicules parliamentary systems of government. As far as I know,
>>>Anthroposophical enterprises today are governed totalistically by
>>>self-perpetuating councils of elders.
>
>and commented:
>
>>Evidently, you've never attended a meeting of a branch of the
>>Anthroposophical Society or, for that matter, our school's Annual Meeting.
>>As far as the former is concerned, I have a serious doubt that it's run by
>>_anyone_, much less a "self-perpetuating councils of elders". Our school
>>board, as it happens, has the majority of its seats elected by a vote of
>>the parents. Please provide some examples of totalistically-goverened
>>Anthroposophical enterprises.
>
>Have you ever attended a College of Teachers meeting?
No, and I've never attended a meeting of the Board of Trustees of Harvard
University, either. The College of Teachers is responsible for pedagogical
issues and I'm happy to let them settle those matters in whatever way they
see fit. This is part of the social contract, if you will, which is
inherent in Waldorf schools. This by no means implies that the teachers
"run the school" in a global sense or even that they can dictate
non-curricular matters to the school board.
Our school is, I believe, typical in structure: representatives from the
College of Teachers have one third of the seats on the Board, with members
chosen in, again, whatever way the teachers see fit. The remaining two
thirds are divided between parents and "at large" members. All of the
non-College board members are chosen by a standard parliamentary process of
nomination and election. Clearly things are not being run by your supposed
"self-perpetuating council of elders" in this case. I'm still waiting for
examples of Anthroposophical enterprises which are run in such a way.
>>>The best example of Anthroposophical
>>>political theory in action are the Camphill villages, institutions for the
>>>developmentally disabled. Do they have elections in Camphill villages?
>>
>>A red herring. What, precisely, would you propose they have elections
>>_for_ in a Camphill village?
>
>Camphill villages are self-governed threefold societies, right? So how do
>they make decisions?
_What_ decisions? What to wear in the morning? Whether to hire a
particular job applicant? What to serve for dinner? I would assume that
many decisions would probably be made by consensus, as they are in, for
instance, Quaker Meetings for Business.
An over-reliance on majoritarian democracy (which you yourself appear to
have somewhat mixed feelings about) presupposes adversarial relationships
among the affected participants. Consensus decision-making is based on the
idea that it is better to work through to a "win-win" solution which is
acceptable to all involved parties. See Steven Covey's book
_Principle-Centered Leadership_ or a Quaker publication titled _Beyond
Majority Rule_ for more on this sort of thing.
--
Lefty [gYon-Pa]
C:.M:.C:., D:.O:.D:.
From ??? ??? Wed Feb 07 19:27:14 1996
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Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 21:11:19 -0600
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: Dick Oliver
Subject: Re: WCA Separation of C and S
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>I wonder whether you could demonstrate the existence of this supposed
>"personality". I'd suggest that your assertion that such a thing exists
>is unfalsifiable and therefore cannot be an object of scientific
>discourse.
I agree with you 100%, Lefty, from a technical standpoint. But I still agree
with Suzanne: children certainly have personalities as well as physical bodies.
--Dick Oliver ----------
Cedar Science Center
Wolcott, Vermont USA
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Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 22:58:36 -0700
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From: slainson rmii.com (Suzanne Lainson)
Subject: Re: WCA Separation of C and S
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>
>I wonder whether you could demonstrate the existence of this supposed
>"personality". I'd suggest that your assertion that such a thing exists
>is unfalsifiable and therefore cannot be an object of scientific
>discourse.
What is your point? That you don't agree with me. That's okay by me. I
don't really give a damn about scientific discourse at this point. I gave
my opinion. I don't have to defend it.
Look, I have intentionally tried to steer the discussion into some
non-adversarial topics (rituals, Great Books, Gnoisis magazine) and I get
no response. You only respond when you think you perceive weaknesses in my
logic. I am not impressed.
Suzanne
Suzanne Lainson SportsTrust Integrated Marketing
slainson rmii.com P.O. Box 2071 Sports and Event Marketing
303 473-9884 Boulder, CO 80306 Online Marketing
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Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 00:02:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Lefty Redux
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Subject: WCA Personalities and Opinions
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On Wed, 7 Feb 1996, Suzanne Lainson wrote:
>
> >I wonder whether you could demonstrate the existence of this supposed
> >"personality". I'd suggest that your assertion that such a thing exists
> >is unfalsifiable and therefore cannot be an object of scientific
> >discourse.
>
> What is your point? That you don't agree with me. That's okay by me. I
> don't really give a damn about scientific discourse at this point. I gave
> my opinion. I don't have to defend it.
No, my point is _not_ that I disagree with you, Suzanne; quite the
contrary, although I might use different terminology. I agree completely
that there is _something_ which makes a particular person a particular
person.
Dick Oliver made the observation that, according to a strict materialist
point of view, a child is no more than its body; the personality and mind
of the child (if one were to grant that such things exist) could be viewed
as no more than emergent properties of the body, the results of chemical
interactions, etc. According to the materialist view, nothing exists
which does not proceed from matter; the term "spiritual" is content-free.
Several posters on this list call themselves skeptics, and appeal with
some frequency to the Popperian idea that any assertion which is not
capable of falsification through experiment is unworthy of consideration.
I took the opportunity to play devil's advocate and turned that assertion
around, pointing out that, for what it's worth, neither the personality,
nor the mind, nor sentience are experimentally falsifiable. As David
Hume discovered, to his dismay, skepticism eventually devours itself.
The "personality" cannot be weighed, measured or quantitatively assessed.
Yet people who refuse to entertain the notion of a soul have no difficulty
talking about "personality" as though the latter concept could be reified
in some way that the former cannot. _That_ is my point.
> Look, I have intentionally tried to steer the discussion into some
> non-adversarial topics (rituals, Great Books, Gnoisis magazine) and I get
> no response. You only respond when you think you perceive weaknesses in my
> logic. I am not impressed.
I'm sorry if you feel put upon, but I don't take responsibility for your
feeling that way. I wouldn't go so far as to start making observations
about heat and kitchens, as Dan Dugan did in response to Val Setzer, but I
have to suggest that you're taking this too personally. I haven't abused
you, insulted you or called you names. I have disagreed with your
opinions when they were at variance with mine, and tried to explain to
you why I disagree. It happens that, in this case, I agree with you.
I would observe that "non-adversarial topics" are not likely to provoke
much in the way of debate or even discussion, particularly on a list the
charter of which is to criticize Waldorf education and "the cult of Rudolf
Steiner". I'm certainly not detaining anyone else on this list from
taking up such threads if they care to.
--
Lefty Redux [gYon-Pa] ,
C:.M:.C:., D:.O:.D:.
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From: DSabsay aol.com
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 04:35:16 -0500
Message-ID: <960208043514_417493955 mail04.mail.aol.com>
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
Subject: WCA Is science atheism and materialism?
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On Wed, Feb 7, 1996 8:49 AM PST, Dick Oliver wrote >
[Dan Dugan wrote >>]
>> The phony "balanced approach" has been worked out all the way to the
>> supreme court in the case of creationism. Public schools can't teach
>> religious dogma as a "balance" to science.
> Okay, time to get direct. Atheism and materialism _are_ religious dogma.
> Physical science does not and cannot support or refute the existance of
> non-physical beings. And you'be been quite clear that when you say
"science"
> you mean atheism and materialism.
Well, Dick,
When I say "science," I mean the ability to discover and verify real
knowledge such as DNA and the flawed gene that causes Huntington's disease.
This knowledge is not culturally relative; it can be used and verified by
anybody, regardless of their beliefs or their culture, to save lives.
Creationism IS (Christian) religion, NOT science. I could care less that
"science does not and cannot support or refute the existance of non-physical
beings."
> The idea that children can or should truly understand physical science and
> atheism without having first experienced the cultural, practical, and
> intellectual foundations out of which they arose strikes me as the most
> parochial and sectarian position of all.
Unsupported poppycock.
-- Daniel Sabsay, president
East Bay Skeptics Society
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Date: Thu, 08 Feb 1996 09:26:49 -0600
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: Dick Oliver
Subject: Re: WCA Waldorf charter in Grass Valley
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Lee, as usual, your comments are just about what I would have said if I
responded to my own postings!
> >Atheism and materialism _are_ religious dogma.
>
>I'd agree about atheism. It's an assertion of the unknowable, and
>must be taken on "faith". But materialism is not what I'd call
>"religion", unless you really want to blur the terms.
I don't have a clear distinction in my use of the terms "religious" and
"philosophical". Maybe one has to be a materialist to sustain such a clear
distinction! In any case, if you substitute "philosophical dogma" my
point remains essentially the same.
>As to your previous parody of materialism as "the child is only a
>body": competent philosophers have asserted (generalizations of) "_I_
>am only a body" many times. Russell's famous comment on the
>immortality of consciousness comes to mind.
Well, competent philosophers are by definition competent, but the mind-body
problem under materialism remains a darn sticky one, you must admit. Or,
rather, the mind-body problem should technically disappear under materialism
since what was originally meant by "mind" is replaced with a subset of what
was originally meant by "body".
> > Physical science does not and cannot support or refute the existance of
> > non-physical beings.
>
>This is either to be taken as a quasi-tautology ("physical" and
>"non-physical" taken by definition as totally disjoint subject
>matter), or you're going to have to supply evidence. And I rather
>doubt that there is any.
By "evidence" I assume you mean physical evidence. Which rather brings home
the point.
> > The idea that children can or should truly understand physical science and
> > atheism without having first experienced the cultural, practical, and
> > intellectual foundations out of which they arose strikes me as the most
> > parochial and sectarian position of all.
>
>I think we have something related to Zeno's "paradox" here. How do I get
>started "knowing"? By first "knowing" all of intellectual history...?
>"Clairvoyantly" or by "intuition"? (Gotta bootstrap somehow, so may
>as well follow Steiner.) Cheers, --lee
There is no paradox at all. You got started "knowing" by crawling around and
babbling, then by going to school and broadening your experience. People had
to learn to count before they could learn to multiply. So do kids. People
had to learn perspective drawing before they could learn cartesian geometry.
So do kids. People had to learn to hold something in reverence before they
could choose to be irreverent. So do kids.
--Dick Oliver ----------
Cedar Science Center
Wolcott, Vermont USA
From ??? ??? Thu Feb 08 18:11:17 1996
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Date: Thu, 08 Feb 1996 10:38:58 -0600
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: Dick Oliver
Subject: Re: WCA Is science atheism and materialism?
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Daniel Sabasay writes:
>When I say "science," I mean the ability to discover and verify real
>knowledge such as DNA and the flawed gene that causes Huntington's disease.
I am looking out of my window at the snow. The existance of the snow is
"real knowledge" in the sense I think you mean. But the existance of the
being who I percieve to be observing the snow is not "real knowledge" in
that it cannot (as Lefty points out) be confirmed or falsified through the
same modes of perception that DNA structures or the snow itself can be. Yet
this is very "real" knowledge as far as I'm concerned--it is in fact the
knowledge about which I am most certain.
Perhaps you or Lee can help me understand my error here, by indicating a
procedure by which the existance of an observer (any observer) can be
confirmed or falsified. It's easy enough to confirm that a human body is
present, and that the brain of that human being is processing some kind of
model of a physical event. But this does not logically imply any observer
who is actually conscious of the event.
I consider B.F. Skinner's behaviorism to be "science" at its best. It fully
acknowledges that we do not need the hypothesis of consciousness to explain
human behavior. The more one studies Skinner, especially his later work, the
more one realizes that he is almost certainly right. Occam's razor should by
all rights hack consciousness right out of science.
But no one here doubts that consciousness exists, or that we are indeed
observers. We are all quite sure of the matter, I expect. But this very real
knowledge cannot have come to us through physical "science". To believe that
it can is a logical error.
We're pretty far off topic here... maybe.
--Dick Oliver ----------
Cedar Science Center
Wolcott, Vermont USA
From ??? ??? Thu Feb 08 18:11:43 1996
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Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 12:01:35 -0500
From: Lee Story USG
Message-Id: <9602081701.AA02551 tlaser.zk3.dec.com>
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
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I wrote:
> > In either case, as long as the existence of sentient beings and a flow
> > of "time" are parts of our theory, the notion that we have had effects
> > of various sorts (have "done" things) can be fit into it, and the
> > result can be tested. This is an interesting boundary where Popper's
> > "falsification" isn't quite the whole story about scientific
> > experiment! What we're looking for here is "predictive power".
Lefty replied:
> I'm not sure I follow the beginning of this paragraph; I'll grant you
> time, but at the moment, I think "sentient beings" are up in the air
> along with "personality". While people unquestionably "do things", it's
> unclear to me what "result" you're proposing to test. Nobody denies that
> we "have had effects of various sorts"; it's unclear where this
> _soi-disant_ "personality" fits into things. Occam's Razor might well
> apply here.
I hope we don't talk past each other here! I thought it was clear
that I'd taken Reynolds's definition for "personality" which you
provided, and said that if we assume an actor ("sentient being", in
this case presumably human) and a space in which to act (time seeming
the most important part), it was hard to deny that actions take place,
and that we can test their occurrence. (This says nothing about free
will, etc.) You seem to have trouble with "personality" because you
(and Reynolds) cannot accept that "such thing exists as a discrete
entity," while I would rather not presume an atomization of the ideal
into such elements---and if we pretty much agree on the concept to
attach to a word (reference), it probably doesn't matter (except
within the narrow game known as the formal philosophy of language)
whether we consider a concept a fundamental entity in some peculiar
sense.
Hm.... Perhaps this thread of discussion can help explain some of
Steiner's claims about the empirical untestability of the spiritual
world. (I still think he's off-base about tests of clairvoyance, though):
I didn't claim that the existence of the scientist could be
"falsified". To experiment is to _presume_ an observer, a grammatical
subject to "I tried...", isn't it? So let's dismiss consideration of
consciousness (ours or anyone else's) and see whether our world
changes? I think it will. Thus the concept signifies something. Of
course this is not a "scientific" demonstration in the sense of
empirical natural science, any more than Steiner's "spiritual science"
is.
I still think that the word "soul" (Seele) is laden with Christian
religious import, and can too easily be taken in a rather sectarian
sense to imply something that "God" "creates", that adherence to dogma
"saves", and will eventually be "judged".
On the German: There are a great variety of terms for "mind", but they
all have problems. "Geist" isn't bad, but of course also has
traditional associations. "Sinn" emphasizes the sensory aspects of
mind too much. Perhaps "Verstand" (reason, understanding) in place of
"Geist"?...though in German this word carries some "materialist"
implications, and is occasionally used for "brain" (Gehirn).
Yes---(within the limits of my meagre German) I'd probably have used
the "Sinn/Verstand" pair. In Steiner's case, "Seele/Geist" is
entirely understandable, since he was seeking to engage a primarily
Christian audience.
All this is far from directly pertinent to Waldorf, but I'm trying to
understand Steiner's world-view, bouncing other positions off it to see
whether it's solid :)
Cheers, --lee
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Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 10:05:07 -0800
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: lefty apple.com (Lefty)
Subject: Re: WCA Separation of C and S
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Lee Story writes
>
>I hope we don't talk past each other here! I thought it was clear
>that I'd taken Reynolds's definition for "personality" which you
>provided, and said that if we assume an actor ("sentient being", in
>this case presumably human) and a space in which to act (time seeming
>the most important part), it was hard to deny that actions take place,
>and that we can test their occurrence. (This says nothing about free
>will, etc.)
Again, I don't argue with this assertion; I'm simply trying to point out
that it's trivial. Yes, we can certainly say, "Something happened," when
something does. However, while acknowledging that the "personality" (or
"consciousness", if you like that better) is excluded from Popperian
falsification, you turn instead to an appeal to "predictive power". But I
don't see that we can make predictions based on an imponderable
"personality". It seems clear to me that the best one could do is
(possibly--I'm far from convinced that one can do this in practice) predict
future behavior based on past behavior. There would appear to be neither
room nor necessity for personality, consciousness, or sentience here; the
appeal to "personality" as a cause for that past or future behavior is
unjustified. The need no more be sentience, consciousness or personality
in an acting entity than there need be a Chinese-speaking person in Roger
Penrose's "Chinese Room". Occam's Razor has a particularly keen edge: it
can cut close, but it can also cut deep.
By the bye, is Popper's assertion regarding falsifiability falsifiable? If
so, how?
>You seem to have trouble with "personality" because you
>(and Reynolds) cannot accept that "such thing exists as a discrete
>entity," while I would rather not presume an atomization of the ideal
>into such elements---and if we pretty much agree on the concept to
>attach to a word (reference), it probably doesn't matter (except
>within the narrow game known as the formal philosophy of language)
>whether we consider a concept a fundamental entity in some peculiar
>sense.
The issue isn't really whether "personality" is a fundamental entity, but
rather whether there's any good excuse for an appeal to the concept at all.
Viewed from the point of view of materialism, it's an explanation which
doesn't explain anything.
>Hm.... Perhaps this thread of discussion can help explain some of
>Steiner's claims about the empirical untestability of the spiritual
>world. (I still think he's off-base about tests of clairvoyance, though):
> I didn't claim that the existence of the scientist could be
>"falsified". To experiment is to _presume_ an observer, a grammatical
>subject to "I tried...", isn't it? So let's dismiss consideration of
>consciousness (ours or anyone else's) and see whether our world
>changes? I think it will. Thus the concept signifies something. Of
>course this is not a "scientific" demonstration in the sense of
>empirical natural science, any more than Steiner's "spiritual science"
>is.
I could point out, as Hume did, that your "I tried..." is no more than a
figure of speech. Alternatively, I could make the same sort of claim
regarding the soul, supersensible realities, or spiritual beings with equal
justification. And, in point of fact, this is precisely what Steiner asks
his reader to do. In effect, he says that he doesn't ask his reader to
simply accept his assertions as true, as Dan Dugan has claimed. Rather, he
says that one should consider, nonprejudicially, the possibility that such
an assertion might be true and see what implications proceed from that
possibility.
--
Lefty [gYon-Pa]
C:.M:.C:., D:.O:.D:.
From ??? ??? Thu Feb 08 18:12:10 1996
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Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 10:05:09 -0800
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: lefty apple.com (Lefty)
Subject: WCA Materialism and Atheism
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Dick Oliver writes (responding to Lee responding to Dick)
>
>> >Atheism and materialism _are_ religious dogma.
>>
>>I'd agree about atheism. It's an assertion of the unknowable, and
>>must be taken on "faith". But materialism is not what I'd call
>>"religion", unless you really want to blur the terms.
>
>I don't have a clear distinction in my use of the terms "religious" and
>"philosophical". Maybe one has to be a materialist to sustain such a clear
>distinction! In any case, if you substitute "philosophical dogma" my
>point remains essentially the same.
I have to agree with Dick that the line between "religion" and "philosophy"
is a very hazy one, but I'd go one better. Materialism appears to
inescapably imply atheism. Materialism not only asserts that thought has a
material basis, but that _all_ phenomena do. Given that God is (with a
handful of exceptions) generally conceived to be immaterial, a materialist
would seem to be bound to insist on the nonexistence of God.
--
Lefty [gYon-Pa]
C:.M:.C:., D:.O:.D:.
From ??? ??? Thu Feb 08 18:12:40 1996
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Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 13:21:11 -0800
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: lefty apple.com (Lefty)
Subject: Re: WCA interpeting Steiner
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A couple of weeks ago, Dan Dugan favored us with his interpretation of a
passage from _How to Know Higher Worlds_. I recently came across a comment
from a couple of folks who are involved in doing translations of Steiner
for publication which pertains to Dan's exegesis.
Dan quoted and wrote
>
>"Whoever wishes to observe the facts leading to [claims of the ability to
>tell us something of the profound riddles of life] must rise to
>supersensible cognition. He must follow the path I have endeavored to
>describe in this book."
>
>This is an exemplary megalomaniac statement. He is saying there is only one
>path to truth, and it is Anthroposophy. Guru talk.
My correspondants note that, while Steiner was from the south of Germany,
near the Austro-Yugoslav border, the bulk of translations to date have been
done by people who were only familiar with German as spoken in the north.
They go on to point out:
>As an example, Steiner often uses "muss" - "must" when he is speaking. When
>said in northern German, that translation tends to be correct, i.e., has a
>similiar feeling in English. However, when used in the Austrian/Viennese
>context, the meaning is closer to "good to do" or "ought to". Steiner
>commonly uses the phrase "Man muss klar sein dass ..." - in northern German
>that means "You must be clear that ..." - but for us in the English-speaking
>world, his Austrian/Southern German meaning is more clearly expressed by
>"You ought to be aware that ..." or "It would be good to be aware that ...".
>The feeling conveyed by the latter translations (interpretations) is clearly
>much less rigid, much less dogmatic and instead conveys a feeling of urging
>that something be done rather than stating that it has to be done without
>fail.
Since Dan's assertions of "guru talk" and megalomania seem to revolve
around the use of the word "must", I thought this comment was pertinent.
--
Lefty [gYon-Pa]
C:.M:.C:., D:.O:.D:.
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Date: Thu, 08 Feb 1996 16:43:21 -0600
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: Dick Oliver
Subject: Re: WCA Separation of C and S
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from Lefty:
>..."personality" (or "consciousness", if you like that better)...
I keep getting this feeling that the very clear thing we're identifying is
getting lost in the muddy terminology, here.
"Consciousness" is a rather materialistic word, really--people are always
talking about a "conscious brain" or asking if "plants have consciousness"
and that sort of thing. And "personality" sort of implies something more
like temperament or emotional tendencies. Steiner's use of the word "soul"
seems pretty precise and clear to me, but of course it drags multiple
meanings from religious uses into the soup.
--Dick Oliver ----------
Cedar Science Center
Wolcott, Vermont USA
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Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 11:54:58 -0500
From: Lee Story USG
Message-Id: <9602091654.AA25028 tlaser.zk3.dec.com>
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Subject: Re: WCA Separation of C and S
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Lefty writes:
> [....] The need no more be sentience, consciousness or personality
> in an acting entity than there need be a Chinese-speaking person in Roger
> Penrose's "Chinese Room". Occam's Razor has a particularly keen edge: it
> can cut close, but it can also cut deep.
I suggested the elimination of unnecessary atomic entities, and in
fact doubt that existence needs any kind of grounding in atoms of any
kind. You argue against positing unnecessary loose collections. I
have a hard time seeing the "soul" as other than a collection of the
sort the Reynolds quote suggests, yet am not about to jettison
"consciousness".
btw, Isn't the "Chinese room" originally Searle's?
> By the bye, is Popper's assertion regarding falsifiability falsifiable? If
> so, how?
Worth thinking about, but I wouldn't think it would be falsifiable.
He's making general, theoretical statements about preexisting
procedures. It's philosophy of science, not empirical science itself.
"Scientific method" existed long before Popper, of course.
> The issue isn't really whether "personality" is a fundamental entity, but
> rather whether there's any good excuse for an appeal to the concept at all.
> Viewed from the point of view of materialism, it's an explanation which
> doesn't explain anything.
Who are you responding to? I don't think "personality" is an
"explanation" of anything, and it didn't seem that Suzanne was making
that claim either. As I said, why not simply take it as a word
referring to the aspects of a person which are visible to others?
It's useful to have a name for that. I have trouble with "soul"
simply because it seems to be a collective noun which refers to a
different collection of attributes every time I hear a new person use
it, and I haven't been satisfied with any intentional
(non-enumerative) definition of it that I've heard.
> I could point out, as Hume did, that your "I tried..." is no more than a
> figure of speech.
Agreed.
> Alternatively, I could make the same sort of claim regarding the
> soul, supersensible realities, or spiritual beings with equal
> justification. And, in point of fact, this is precisely what
> Steiner asks his reader to do. In effect, he says that he doesn't
> ask his reader to simply accept his assertions as true, as Dan
> Dugan has claimed. Rather, he says that one should consider,
> nonprejudicially, the possibility that such an assertion might be
> true and see what implications proceed from that possibility.
We seem to agree on this as well. Steiner's general recommendations
are okay.
But much of his resulting "example" knowledge seem totally off-base.
The conclusions he draws (about prehistory, angelology, numerology and
such), and of which he seems so sure, seem suspect to say the least.
They make one suspicious that (1) he was unable to follow his own
recommended procedures, to view his own thought in the neutral way he
recommends. Some alternatives are (2) he was right: we should accept
all or most of his "clairvoyant" proclamations (bah!), or (3) seeing
"what implications proceed..." isn't a sufficient methodology, and
thus that his whole approach to "supersensible knowledge" was flawed
(through gross incompleteness) at the heart. (I certainly don't claim
a _better_ path to supersensible knowledge---I'm merely hoping to keep
my own hubris banked down to the level where I can accept the
possibility that I'll never make real progress!)
As a follower of Goethe, and thus a certain kind of "poet", Steiner
certainly had a right to invent (and claim reality for) all sorts of
elves and lemurs and Atlanteans. I'd like to note that I don't think
that what I describe above as apparent flaws disqualifies Steiner as
the founder of a useful educational approach; any more than I'd deny,
on grounds that his scientific ideas weren't very productive, that
Goethe wrote the most delightful lyrical, symbolical, psychological
drama in the Western canon. But I wouldn't go to him with a toothache.
Cheers, --lee
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Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 10:57:40 -0600
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: Dick Oliver
Subject: WCA From Bob & Nancy
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With their permission, I'd like to quote some more from Bob and Nancy's
recent post to the Waldorf list on dogmatism [from which Lefty exerpted,
regarding the word "must"]. As Lefty mentioned, Bob and Nancy are
anthroposophists involved in translating some of Steiner's writings into
English.
"A further example can be found in Steiner's "indications". In our opinion,
they are not dogmatic statements that anything is a particular way. They
are examples of things that may be viewed in a particular way, something
much different... Steiner often asks a question and then
proceeds to attempt to provide an answer from his own perspective as an
example, not as a rule. That is the paradox of Anthroposophy, namely that
what often appears to be a "rule" or "law" is, in fact, only an example. To
follow an example meant for a given situation outside that situation is, in
fact, completely incorrect from Steiner's own perspective. He continually
had problems in this regard. His "believers" often heard an example, then
attempted to put it into practice EXACTLY as stated and were then surprised
by Steiner's rebuff of their actions. (We can provide examples of this for
anyone interested).
"In short, Steiner himself did not intend to present a rigid dogma, but
between the misreadings of translators attuned to a different form of the
language and human frailty itself, a tendency toward dogmatic interpretation
often arose (and arises).
"The essence of Anthroposophical practice lies in flexibility of outlook, not
in rigidity... That is the reason why Steiner so often emphasized group
discussions and openness to other views and then tried to come to a common
understanding of a particular question. (There is a wonderful description
of this way of working in Bernhard Lievegoed's book "Towards the 21st
Century: Doing the Good"). That is quite different from accepting some
dogmatic statement without question. Steiner's whole approach was based
upon the idea of trying to find the answer in the question itself. That is,
of course, the essence and method of classical rhetoric. That is also the
essence of the Waldorf APPROACH to education (not the Waldorf METHOD). In
teaching from the Waldorf approach, each child is perceived as a question
and the task is to find the answer to that question lying [in] the child.
Everything contained in the Waldorf "curriculum" or Waldorf "method" is
nothing more (or less) than EXAMPLES of things attempted or achieved, not
rules or even firm guidelines. Waldorf education is a living education and
always needs to move and grow and meet the specific situation, specific
child, according to the needs of that child. Adults (teachers and parents
specifically) should adjust to the child's needs, not the other way round.
"In our opinion, many of the questions discussed [on the Waldorf list]...
need to be discussed with an awareness of trying to
find a solution appropriate to the PARTICULAR situation, not with the hope
of finding a general rule applicable to all instances. It is quite
apparent that, for instance, drum playing in a school or the emphasis upon
Christian tales is appropriate in some cases but not in others. The
appropriateness can be determined by looking to the children. Developing a
deep understanding of the nature of the question and the present underlying
realities is something we all need to work toward.... However, to attempt
to make a general rule to be applied in all cases is to be dogmatic,
something we think all of us want to avoid. We live in an age of complexity
and one in which there is a deep desire for simple, quick solutions, but we
are certain that each of us has experienced the frustration of simple,
general answers. Each situation needs to be taken on its own and, though it
may seem impenetrable, will eventually yield a solution if we approach it
with love and an openness to its own unique qualities. The answer to each
question lies within the question itself."
[from Bob Lathe and Nancy Whittaker
Weimar, California
bobnancy psyber.com]
--Dick Oliver ----------
Cedar Science Center
Wolcott, Vermont USA
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Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 10:57:52 -0600
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: Dick Oliver
Subject: WCA More doctrine
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Dan, my 3-year-old daughter came home from the Waldorf school spouting
another one of those anthroposophical verses again, but I can't quite figure
out how it fits into Steiner's spiritual heirarchies. Could you help me
interpret it?
"Great Giant Jim (stomp, stomp, stomp)
Great, giant, grim (stomp, stmop, stomp)
He wears a hat without a brim (hands over head, fingers around forehead)
He weighs a ton (stomp, stomp)
And wears a blouse (fingers across shoulders)
And trembles
when he sees a mouse" (skooch down and shiver)
--Dick Oliver ----------
Cedar Science Center
Wolcott, Vermont USA
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Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 12:10:32 -0500
From: Lee Story USG
Message-Id: <9602091710.AA25848 tlaser.zk3.dec.com>
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Subject: Re: WCA Separation of C and S
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Dick Oliver writes:
> "Consciousness" is a rather materialistic word, really--people are always
> talking about a "conscious brain" or asking if "plants have consciousness"
> and that sort of thing.
Dick, this is the first message from you on this list that I find
mostly unintelligible (because you offer no explanation but only state
a connection that may be the result of your particular tastes), and
mostly uninformative (because it _labels_ a word without really
clarifying what you think is its common use).
I'd describe "consciousness" as the most neutral term we have for this
rather obscure complex of ideas, and don't see what's particularly
"materialistic" about it. "Conscious brain?" Never heard that one,
though I'm not a big reader of the pseudo-philosophes of "AI" or
cognitive psych.
And how does a question about "consciousness" in plants imply
materialism?...unless you are a fundie (an adherent of an obsolete
anthropocentric-egotistical middle-eastern religious view that claims
that a personal "God" granted humans---maybe even just males:}---self-
awareness). I think the question of the extent of self-awareness of
other living things is an excellent one, though unless they have some
sort of response ("language") capability it's likely also to be
futile. Hmm..... --lee
From ??? ??? Fri Feb 09 23:40:35 1996
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Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 21:28:55 -0600
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: Dick Oliver
Subject: Re: WCA Separation of C and S
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Lee, you responded to my comment about the difficulty of finding the right
word for what I (and, I think, others) were talking about with some detailed
arguments, like:
> And how does a question about "consciousness" in plants imply
>materialism?... etc. etc.
I only intended to gesture vaguely at the undertones in general (American)
use of the word, not to argue that they logically implied anything at all. I
get the impression that you and I use "consciousness" to mean the same
thing, actually. So if that post seems unintelligble, just ignore it--I
really wasn't trying to make a big point.
--Dick Oliver ----------
Cedar Science Center
Wolcott, Vermont USA
From ??? ??? Sat Feb 10 23:56:14 1996
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Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 21:02:15 -0600
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
From: Dick Oliver
Subject: WCA Returned repost
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Here is a re-post of a message returned by the blob.best.net server:
>>Dick, I don't believe the central premise, that Steiner had access to
>>special knowledge. When that falls, most of what he wrote is either
>>derivative from Blavatsky and other occultists, or fanciful nonsense of his
>>own.
>
>I don't believe that Steiner had access to special knowledge, either. It's
>interesting that I (and some others) interpret him as saying quite
>explicitly that he didn't think he had access to special knowledge but that
>anyone should either verify what he said themselves or not believe it. You
>(and some others), on the other hand, interpret him as saying just the
>opposite. Ain't it always the way!
>
>>My original motivation was anger at having been refused permission to speak
>>to the college of teachers (I guess a parent isn't important enough) and
>>being told on pain of expulsion of my son that though I didn't have to
>>believe in Anthroposophy, I must not discuss it critically at the school.
>
>Thanks very much for sharing this story. If this is an accurate portrayal of
>the events that took place, you certainly seem to have been treated unfairly
>and discourteously. (Though the "not discuss it critically at the school"
>part might have been a reasonable request if you are anywhere near as
>zealous a preacher in person as on the Net. )
>
>It's too bad you decided to blame the whole Waldorf school movement instead
>of the individuals that made those decisions, though. You can come talk to
>our teachers if you want to! (We might draw the line at picket signs and
>anti-anthroposophy leaflet handouts on the playground, though.)
>
>>I can't just be against something, I have to know what I'm for.
>
>Okay, I'll bite: what are you for, Dan? What kind of school do you wish
existed?
>
>--Dick Oliver ----------
> Cedar Science Center
> Wolcott, Vermont USA
>
>
--Dick Oliver ----------
Cedar Science Center
Wolcott, Vermont USA
From ??? ??? Mon Feb 12 00:35:37 1996
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From: IReadRudy aol.com
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 01:24:35 -0500
Message-Id: <199602120624.BAA11575 emout05.mail.aol.com>
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ed 96-02-07 06:36:16 EST, Dan writes:
quoting Rise,
>>After a liver is dissected
>>and tested to prove the presence or absence of disease, gross anatomical
>>structure and microscopic structure, etc. it is no longer a liver. It is
a
>>rotting mass of tissue. Anthroposophical Medicine looks at the whole human
>>being.
>
>I think this statement is an example of Steinerist anti-intellectualism;
>real knowledge is denigrated in favor of a pretense that Anthroposophists
>don't need to be concerned with such details.
>
>Sincerely, Dan
Dear Dan,
Of course physicians and nurses practicing Anthroposophically-extended
Medicine are concerned with the details of lab test results and microbiology,
etc. Perhaps I did not make myself clear to you; we simply realize there is
more to a human being than the sum of their lab test results. Most patients
I have cared for appreciate insight beyond the X-ray report.
Warmly,
Rise Smythe-Freed RN
Anthroposophical Nursing
From ??? ??? Mon Feb 12 00:35:40 1996
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From: IReadRudy aol.com
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 01:24:35 -0500
Message-ID: <960212012433_420372848 emout04.mail.aol.com>
To: waldorf-critics blob.best.net
Subject: Re: WCA Anthroposophical Medicine
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In a message dated 96-02-07 00:48:39 EST, Daniel Sabsay writes:
(quoting Rise
)
>> Your [Daniel Sabsay's] intimation [that] Anthroposophical Medicine shuns
>science
>> and current medical knowledge is unfounded. Anthropsophical medicine and
>> Nursing and the various therapies are based in current medical knowledge
>and
>> spiritual science. The two are compatible.
>
>Can Rise, or someone else familiar with Anthroposophical Medicine give me
>some additional information?
>
>1) Does A.M. accept that AIDS is caused by HIV?
>
>2) If a vaccine is developed that is believed by mainstream medicine to
>prevent AIDS, will Anthroposophical nurses and doctors distribute and
>administer it?
>
>-- Daniel Sabsay, president
> East Bay Skeptics Society
>
>
Dear Daniel,
In response to your questions:
1) Does A.M. accept that AIDS is caused by HIV?
Anthroposophical Medicine recognizes viruses, bacteria and parasites are
attracted to specific disease processes. There has been no single causative
agent of the Auto Immune Deficiency Syndrome agreed upon by "mainstream
medicine." There is, then, nothing to "accept" as there are so many
exceptions. There are individuals with the symptomatology of full blown AIDS
yet have no detectable antibodies to the virus nor any direct evidence of
"AIDS virus." There are also reported instances of individuals in whom the
virus is detectable but have yet to develop any symptomatology, even after 10
or more years. You, Daniel, being as well read as you indicate you are,
surely know of these situations.
The struggle we have in mainstream medicine is that frequently our
observations and test results do not agree with the belief system out of
which we were taught in medical or nursing school. Such is the case with so
called "infectious disease." Anthroposophically-extended Medicine does not
have this cognitive dissonance built into the paradigm out of which one
practices.
2) If a vaccine is developed that is believed by mainstream medicine to
prevent AIDS, will Anthroposophical nurses and doctors distribute and
administer it?
First of all, anthroposophical medical practitioners are mainstream; we have,
however, additional training in Anthroposopohical Medicine. So, it would not
be appropriate to answer your question based on a misperception of a
separation between "mainstream medicine" and Anthroposophical Medicine.
Secondly, If the patient is in fear of contracting a disease process, then a
physician practicing Anthroposophically-extended Medicine would probably
recommend the patient receive the inoculation. Fear plays a large part in
whether or not a person contracts a disease process, as does sympathy.
I am sorry it took me so long to respond. As I said in a previous post, I
would be away sporadically over the next few weeks.
Warmly,
Rise Smythe-Freed RN
Anthroposophical Nursing
From ??? ??? Mon Feb 12 01:33:09 1996
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