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-- Topica Digest --
Waldorf Art
By Golden3000997 cs.com
Re: Waldorf Art
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Article in the Sunday Telegraph (uk)
By madpark nildram.co.uk
RE: Article in the Sunday Telegraph (uk)
By simonetchell f2s.com
teacher training
By simonetchell f2s.com
Re: Article in the Sunday Telegraph (uk)
By madpark nildram.co.uk
vaccination article
By feetapparel hotmail.com
Re: Charter school approval before school board Thursday
By gideonmills yahoo.com
Re: Charter school approval before school board Thursday
By gideonmills yahoo.com
Re: teacher training
By Gary goodwinter.com
Re: Morality and Racism
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
RE: Article in the Sunday Telegraph (uk)
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:56:43 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: Waldorf Art
Forwarded by Christine - no editorializing
*************************8
AN EXHIBIT OF SCHOOLCHILDREN'S ARTWORK ATTRACTS NOTICE AT YORK PUBLIC LIBRARY
BECAUSE OF ITS ... ARTFUL ALLURE
Portland Press Herald (Maine); 1/16/2003; TED COHEN
Portland Press Herald (Maine)
01-16-2003
Portland Press Herald (Maine)
Thursday, January 16, 2003
Edition: York
Section: Your Neighbors
Page: 1E
By TED COHEN Staff Writer
YORK-- As it marks its first year in operation, the York Public Library is
displaying a traveling exhibit of expressive - and impressive - artwork by
children. Robert Waldman, head librarian, said the exhibit, featuring works of art
by students from Waldorf schools nationwide, has brought telephone inquiries
from art lovers living outside of York who have heard that it is here on
display.
"To receive calls on something like this from outside our community is
unusual," Waldman said.
The exhibit features works by students from across the country who are in
Waldorf-sponsored schools. Waldorf schools are private schools that follow a
teaching philosophy that says learning should be appropriate to a child's
emotional and developmental needs at specific ages.
First established in 1919 by Austrian scientist and thinker Rudolf Steiner,
Waldorf schools allow children to learn at a natural pace. There are more than
750 Waldorf schools in 44 countries.
The traveling art exhibit that opened here Jan. 6 marks the 85th anniversary
of Waldorf education. In this area, the Waldorf school in Eliot is called
Tidewater School, which opened in 1999.
Waldorf philosophy is based on the belief that every child can draw, paint,
sculpt, knit, sing and dance. So the teachers integrate the arts in every
subject.
The new $4.75 million library, opened Dec. 1, 2001, replacing the
3,700-square-foot library that had served the town since 1928. Library officials said it
had become too small for York, one of the fastest growing towns in the state.
The new exhibit, which runs until Jan. 30, is in the children's section of
the 24,000-square-foot library. The paintings encircle the sunlight-filled
basement of the library, a visual allure for visitors wanting a new cultural
experience.
"People are really amazed with the quality of the artwork," said Kathleen
Whalin, the children's librarian.
In Waldorf schools, "the ability to create something artistic is regarded as
a natural skill, not something only a handful of children can accomplish,"
said Charlene Ohlen, a member of the Tidewater Development Committee.
In the Waldorf approach to education, an equal emphasis is placed on
academics, artistic expression, social development and attention to what school
officials call "the inner life and natural rhythms of children."
The exhibit, titled "Truth & Beauty" and organized by The Phoenix Arts Group,
features more than 100 pieces of two- and three-dimensional work by Waldorf
children ages 5 to 17.
The artwork display is designed to show how the arts are central to learning,
said Karen Traversy, Tidewater kindergarten teacher and school administrator.
"It's not all at the intellectual level, but at the thinking, feeling and
willing levels - willing being equal to doing," Traversy said.
One student's painted rendering of the human heart, exacting in its accuracy,
has an explanatory card beneath it that tells the viewer: "The Renaissance is
the theme in the visual arts. Students discover the outer laws of
perspective, and draw the human being inside and out, like daVinci, for physiology class."
From York, the exhibit travels to the Portsmouth, N.H., Music Hall, where it
will run from Feb. 1 to Feb. 28.
Staff Writer Ted Cohen can be contacted at 282-8225 or at:
tcohen pressherald.com
Illustrations/Photos:
Staff photo by Gregory RecStudents from Waldorf schools around the country
contributed works to the exhibit currently on display at York Public Library.
This piece was created by a first-grader.Beneath a sketch made by a Waldorf
school fifth-grade student, Robyn Jutras, 3, looks over a book at York Public
Library. The exhibit, titled "Truth & Beauty - The role of the arts in Waldorf
education" is at the library through Jan. 30.Staff photos by Gregory RecA
painting by a third-grader is part of a display of artwork by Waldorf school students
that's at York Public Library.
Copyright 2002 Blethen Maine Newspapers Inc.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 10:56:46 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Waldorf Art
Hi Christine,
I take it you forwarded this "information" as an example of the Waldorf PR
problem? While I agree that children should be encouraged to explore the
arts *and* that many Waldorf students (as well as non-Waldorf students) can
create wonderful paintings, this PR blurb (below) does not speak to the
issue of children and art. Here's my take based on a single reading of the
article:
- Steiner the "scientist, thinker" - again. Misleading, at best.
- Phone calls from "art lovers" outside the area who have heard of the
exhibit - what does this mean???
- "The paintings encircle the sunlight-filled basement of the library, a
visual allure for visitors wanting a new cultural experience." As if
written by Waldorf PR people - Waldorf is certainly a new cultural
experience. Nuff said.
- "In the Waldorf approach to education, an equal emphasis is placed on
academics, artistic expression, social development and attention to what
school officials call 'the inner life and natural rhythms of children.' "
If I were a reporter and was told about the "inner life, etc." of children,
I would ask what that meant. As far as "natural rhythms of children" is
concerned, we all know this is "natural rhythm" according Steiner's model.
The "natural rhythm" of the individual child is *not* respected nor is it
even recognized. The child's teeth and temperament are "natural rhythms"
and telling signs of development in anthro circles - not for me.
-The exhibit is titled "Truth and Beauty." While I have no doubt there is
plenty of "beauty" in the exhibit, I question the part about..."Truth." the
writer of this piece must have take an full 5 minutes to complete the task.
Too cynical? You might think so, Christine, but here again we see an
example of how the Waldorf promoters could have offered the briefest
explanation of what this "art" is a all about - as well as taken the
opportunity to share what they mean by "thinking, feeling and willing" with
curious non-Waldorf/Anthros. But no, they simply call Steiner a scientist
and thinker and share the beauty. And "truth" has yet to be fully
incarnated. What a shame.
-Walden
) Forwarded by Christine - no editorializing
) *************************8
)
) AN EXHIBIT OF SCHOOLCHILDREN'S ARTWORK ATTRACTS NOTICE AT YORK PUBLIC
LIBRARY
) BECAUSE OF ITS ... ARTFUL ALLURE
)
) Portland Press Herald (Maine); 1/16/2003; TED COHEN
)
) Portland Press Herald (Maine)
)
) 01-16-2003
)
) Portland Press Herald (Maine)
) Thursday, January 16, 2003
) Edition: York
) Section: Your Neighbors
) Page: 1E
) By TED COHEN Staff Writer
)
) YORK-- As it marks its first year in operation, the York Public Library is
) displaying a traveling exhibit of expressive - and impressive - artwork by
) children. Robert Waldman, head librarian, said the exhibit, featuring
works of art
) by students from Waldorf schools nationwide, has brought telephone
inquiries
) from art lovers living outside of York who have heard that it is here on
) display.
)
) "To receive calls on something like this from outside our community is
) unusual," Waldman said.
)
) The exhibit features works by students from across the country who are in
) Waldorf-sponsored schools. Waldorf schools are private schools that follow
a
) teaching philosophy that says learning should be appropriate to a child's
) emotional and developmental needs at specific ages.
)
) First established in 1919 by Austrian scientist and thinker Rudolf
Steiner,
) Waldorf schools allow children to learn at a natural pace. There are more
than
) 750 Waldorf schools in 44 countries.
)
) The traveling art exhibit that opened here Jan. 6 marks the 85th
anniversary
) of Waldorf education. In this area, the Waldorf school in Eliot is called
) Tidewater School, which opened in 1999.
)
) Waldorf philosophy is based on the belief that every child can draw,
paint,
) sculpt, knit, sing and dance. So the teachers integrate the arts in every
) subject.
)
) The new $4.75 million library, opened Dec. 1, 2001, replacing the
) 3,700-square-foot library that had served the town since 1928. Library
officials said it
) had become too small for York, one of the fastest growing towns in the
state.
)
) The new exhibit, which runs until Jan. 30, is in the children's section of
) the 24,000-square-foot library. The paintings encircle the sunlight-filled
) basement of the library, a visual allure for visitors wanting a new
cultural
) experience.
)
) "People are really amazed with the quality of the artwork," said Kathleen
) Whalin, the children's librarian.
)
) In Waldorf schools, "the ability to create something artistic is regarded
as
) a natural skill, not something only a handful of children can accomplish,"
) said Charlene Ohlen, a member of the Tidewater Development Committee.
)
) In the Waldorf approach to education, an equal emphasis is placed on
) academics, artistic expression, social development and attention to what
school
) officials call "the inner life and natural rhythms of children."
)
) The exhibit, titled "Truth & Beauty" and organized by The Phoenix Arts
Group,
) features more than 100 pieces of two- and three-dimensional work by
Waldorf
) children ages 5 to 17.
)
) The artwork display is designed to show how the arts are central to
learning,
) said Karen Traversy, Tidewater kindergarten teacher and school
administrator.
)
) "It's not all at the intellectual level, but at the thinking, feeling and
) willing levels - willing being equal to doing," Traversy said.
)
) One student's painted rendering of the human heart, exacting in its
accuracy,
) has an explanatory card beneath it that tells the viewer: "The Renaissance
is
) the theme in the visual arts. Students discover the outer laws of
) perspective, and draw the human being inside and out, like daVinci, for
physiology class."
)
) From York, the exhibit travels to the Portsmouth, N.H., Music Hall, where
it
) will run from Feb. 1 to Feb. 28.
)
) Staff Writer Ted Cohen can be contacted at 282-8225 or at:
)
) tcohen pressherald.com
)
) Illustrations/Photos:
) Staff photo by Gregory RecStudents from Waldorf schools around the country
) contributed works to the exhibit currently on display at York Public
Library.
) This piece was created by a first-grader.Beneath a sketch made by a
Waldorf
) school fifth-grade student, Robyn Jutras, 3, looks over a book at York
Public
) Library. The exhibit, titled "Truth & Beauty - The role of the arts in
Waldorf
) education" is at the library through Jan. 30.Staff photos by Gregory RecA
) painting by a third-grader is part of a display of artwork by Waldorf
school students
) that's at York Public Library.
)
) Copyright 2002 Blethen Maine Newspapers Inc.
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
New threads are always welcome.
) --^----------------------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:58:32 +0000
From: madpark (madpark nildram.co.uk)
Subject: Article in the Sunday Telegraph (uk)
Someone mentioned there was an article on PLANS or that mentioned PLANS and
Michael Kop in last Sundays
Sunday Telegraph (uk) did anyone see it? I have done a search on the Sunday
Telegraph website but couldn't find it
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:28:41 +0000
From: simon etchell (simonetchell f2s.com)
Subject: RE: Article in the Sunday Telegraph (uk)
Yes it was in the Telegraph magazine, last sunday 22nd Feb, I've filed
it away but will dig it out and share if you can't access it - it was
specifically about a 'community' in the US. It does iclude some
'critisms' and does indeed mention PLANS and an impending lawsuit
Very bizarre for me having only encountered this site and just going
down the 'oh my God, what were we getting ourselves into....'route !!
Simon
madpark wrote:
)
) Someone mentioned there was an article on PLANS or that mentioned PLANS
) and
) Michael Kop in last Sundays
) Sunday Telegraph (uk) did anyone see it? I have done a search on the
) Sunday
) Telegraph website but couldn't find it
)
hoping for truth
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:38:40 +0000
From: simon etchell (simonetchell f2s.com)
Subject: teacher training
On the 'concerns' bit of the site it suggests the training to be a
steiner teacher is 'woefully inadequate' and mentions 2 years. I
assumed that meant full tine but last week met a woman whose child goes
to my son's steiner kindergarten (yep hes still there ATM!!.
She has been a 'stay at home mum' for several years with no teaching
experience. She is currently doing her teacher training at Rudolph
Steiner House in London. The course is - wait for it - every saturday
!! thats it !! Surely shes mistaken ? I quizzed her but she seemed
certain, that after 2 years of saturdays (in term time only I guess)
she'll be a teacher. (not kibdergarten - main school )
Surely not ?
Simon
hoping for truth
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 20:37:29 +0000
From: madpark (madpark nildram.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Article in the Sunday Telegraph (uk)
Maybe if you could give me the author I could search on that
)
) Yes it was in the Telegraph magazine, last sunday 22nd Feb, I've filed
) it away but will dig it out and share if you can't access it - it was
) specifically about a 'community' in the US. It does iclude some
) 'critisms' and does indeed mention PLANS and an impending lawsuit
)
) Very bizarre for me having only encountered this site and just going
) down the 'oh my God, what were we getting ourselves into....'route !!
)
) Simon
) madpark wrote:
)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 21:17:50 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: vaccination article
Intersting article here
http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/0000000CA40D.htm on vaccination. For
newbies, this has been a topic of conversation from time to time.
See you, Peter
_________________________________________________________________
Hot chart ringtones and polyphonics. Go to
http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilemania/default.asp
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 17:05:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Gideon Mills (gideonmills yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Charter school approval before school board Thursday
Gideon Mills (gideonmills yahoo.com) wrote:
This past Monday evening at the Viroqua school board meeting a proposal was presented to turn a school slated for closing (because of budget cuts primarily) to turn the school into a charter school.
The school board voted overwhelmingly to close the Liberty Pole school, which at least put an obstacle in the path of the local anthrop community to use public money to fund another Waldorf school. However, I know this is not the end of this attempt considering the steady influx of anthrops into this area.
Deborah
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail
--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 17:05:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Gideon Mills (gideonmills yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Charter school approval before school board Thursday
Gideon Mills (gideonmills yahoo.com) wrote:
This past Monday evening at the Viroqua school board meeting a proposal was presented to turn a school slated for closing (because of budget cuts primarily) to turn the school into a charter school.
The school board voted overwhelmingly to close the Liberty Pole school, which at least put an obstacle in the path of the local anthrop community to use public money to fund another Waldorf school. However, I know this is not the end of this attempt considering the steady influx of anthrops into this area.
Deborah
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail
--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 21:02:15 -0500
From: Gary Bonhiver (Gary goodwinter.com)
Subject: Re: teacher training
Welcome, Simon!
As you dig deeper into our site, you'll find samples of Waldorf teacher
reading list and requirements for years one and two. Can't wait for your
response!
http://www.waldorfcritics.org/active/articles.html#WalTeach
...Gary
on 2/29/04 2:38 PM, simon etchell at simonetchell f2s.com wrote:
) On the 'concerns' bit of the site it suggests the training to be a
) steiner teacher is 'woefully inadequate' and mentions 2 years. I
) assumed that meant full tine but last week met a woman whose child goes
) to my son's steiner kindergarten (yep hes still there ATM!!.
)
) She has been a 'stay at home mum' for several years with no teaching
) experience. She is currently doing her teacher training at Rudolph
) Steiner House in London. The course is - wait for it - every saturday
) !! thats it !! Surely shes mistaken ? I quizzed her but she seemed
) certain, that after 2 years of saturdays (in term time only I guess)
) she'll be a teacher. (not kibdergarten - main school )
)
) Surely not ?
) Simon
)
) hoping for truth
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:07:56 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Morality and Racism
Hi Christine,
You wrote:
) Hi guys!
)
) Why don't y'all come on over to our yard for a while?
I believe you are referring to the discussion at the anthroposophy tomorrow
list. No thanks. Interesting to peruse but just a little weird for me.
Agreed, there is something to learn from *some* members there, but.... What
a wonderful chance for discussion of Steiner's ideas (racism,
anti-Semitism - or not) and what do we see? The Staudenmaier Inquisition
complete with character attacks and paranoia. So much room for meaningful
dialogue and a large chunk of bandwidth is filled with questions about a
translation of one part of one sentence uttered by Steiner many years ago.
People grasp at anything to *catch* Peter instead of dealing with the
essence of the subject. Weird.
And besides, Christine, we have a very good conversation happening right
here, don't we? Really, I am pleased to work *with you* on this Waldorf PR
project as opposed to taking sides. I believe we found some common ground.
I would appreciate seeing this through - would you be willing to speak to a
couple of my previous posts? I sincerely hope so.
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 16:43:31 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: RE: Article in the Sunday Telegraph (uk)
simon etchell wrote:
)Yes it was in the Telegraph magazine, last sunday 22nd Feb, I've filed
)it away but will dig it out and share if you can't access it - it was
)specifically about a 'community' in the US. It does iclude some
)'critisms' and does indeed mention PLANS and an impending lawsuit
I can't find it on line. Could you mail me a copy for PLANS' library?
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1279
-- Topica Digest --
Just testing since Topica downtime
By gary goodwinter.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 06:46:40 -0500
From: Gary Bonhiver (gary goodwinter.com)
Subject: Just testing since Topica downtime
Haven't seen any messages since Topica was down Saturday for
maintenance...just testing
...Gary
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1280
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Morality and Racism
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Fwd: Morality and Racism
By Golden3000997 cs.com
Re: Morality and Racism
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Fwd: Morality and Racism
By Golden3000997 cs.com
Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Fwd: Morality and Racism
By feetapparel hotmail.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 09:47:26 -0600
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Morality and Racism
Hi Walden, thanks for your contributions on the morality and racism thread.
You wrote:
)What
)a wonderful chance for discussion of Steiner's ideas (racism,
)anti-Semitism - or not) and what do we see? The Staudenmaier Inquisition
)complete with character attacks and paranoia.
I think there is a logic to this approach, one that lines up well with the
premise that people cannot discuss topics like racism without impugning one
another's moral status. Some anthroposophists genuinely believe that for
purposes of public discussion, who you are is more important than what you
say, and are quite baffled when others decline to endorse this basic error.
The recent discussion of my politics is a perfect example of this view of
'morality'; it fits right in with the notion that critically describing and
discussing Steiner's racial doctrines is in and of itself insulting to his
moral character. It may take some time, but eventually anthroposophists will
need to come to terms with racism and antisemitism as belief systems, as
worldviews, that can be examined within their historical contexts and
assessed on that basis. Once that recognition is in place, I think it will
become much easier to talk about what Steiner said, and assess these
doctrines within their historical context, without thereby creating an
unbridgeable gulf between anthroposophist and non-anthroposophist
conceptions of who Steiner was as a person.
Peter S.
_________________________________________________________________
Find things fast with the new MSN Toolbar – includes FREE pop-up blocking!
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 21:56:32 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Fwd: Morality and Racism
In a message dated 3/2/2004 8:58:11 PM Eastern Standard Time,
golden3000997 cs.com writes:
) It may take some time, but eventually anthroposophists will
) need to come to terms with racism and antisemitism as belief systems, as
) worldviews, that can be examined within their historical contexts and
) assessed on that basis. Once that recognition is in place, I think it will
) become much easier to talk about what Steiner said, and assess these
) doctrines within their historical context,
Are you saying, Peter that none of the people on this list have "come to
terms with racism and antisemitism as belief sytems?" Are you saying that none of
the people on this list, and by extension "all" Anthroposophists have any
knowledge or experience by which to examine racism and/ or antisemitism as "belief
systems, as world views"? Are you saying that there is something that "we"
don't recognize about these "belief systems [these] world views" in regard to
their historical contexts? Mind you - you said "historical contexts" NOT
"Anthropsophical contexts". Are you saying that we are all too stupid and/ or
uneducated to be able to understand racism and antisemitism as "belief systems [and]
world views" within their "historical contexts" and therefore are unable to
"assess [them] on that basis."?
Because that is exactly what you are saying AND what would make it "much
easier to talk about what Steiner said, and assess these doctrines within their
historical context," would be if we all were actually too stupid and uneducated
to assess racism and antisemitism within their historical contexts. That way,
we would all just accept what you say about the issue as truth and say "Amen,
brother" and oh, boy, it would certainly be easier for you to talk with all of
us, now wouldn't it?
Christine
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 22:31:30 -0600
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Morality and Racism
Hello critics, here is the response I sent to Christine on the anthroposophy
tomorrow list:
Hi Christine, thanks for your post. You wrote:
"Are you saying, Peter that none of the people on this list have "come to
terms with racism and antisemitism as belief sytems?" "
No, I'm saying that some of you have not done so, as far as I can tell.
"Are you saying that none of the people on this list, and by extension "all"
Anthroposophists have any knowledge or experience by which to examine racism
and/ or antisemitism as "belief systems, as world views"?"
No, but I do think this is true of many of the anthroposophists I have
encountered.
"Are you saying that there is something that "we"
don't recognize about these "belief systems [these] world views" in regard
to their historical contexts?"
Yes, several of you are apparently unfamiliar with some of the basic
historical context of antisemitic thinking, for example. I think that is
getting in the way of an informed discussion of the matter.
"Are you saying that we are all too stupid and/ or uneducated to be able to
understand racism and antisemitism as "belief systems [and] world views"
within their "historical contexts" and therefore are unable to
"assess [them] on that basis."?"
No, I don't think that stupidity or education level have anything to do with
it.
"That way, we would all just accept what you say about the issue as truth
and say "Amen, brother" and oh, boy, it would certainly be easier for you to
talk with all of us, now wouldn't it?"
No, that would obviously make it much harder to talk meaningfully about the
topic. You shouldn't believe anything anybody says just because they say it.
In this case, I have not offered my own private views on the general
historical context, I have provided very well established background
information in order to frame our more specific discussion of Steiner's
doctrines. I've offered you all sorts of book recommendations and article
recommendations about the history of antisemitism and the history of racist
thought. I think we could have a more fruitful discussion if you would take
a moment to look into some of them. What do you say?
Peter
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 00:15:23 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Fwd: Morality and Racism
In a message dated 3/2/2004 11:20:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,
pstauden yahoo.de writes:
) Subj: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Fwd: Morality and Racism
) Date: 3/2/2004 11:20:25 PM Eastern Standard Time
) From: pstauden yahoo.de (Peter Staudenmaier)
) Reply-to: (A HREF="mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow yahoogroups.com")
anthroposophy_tomorrow yahoogroups.com(/A)
) To: anthroposophy_tomorrow yahoogroups.com
)
) Hi Christine, thanks for your post. You wrote:
)
)
) "Are you saying, Peter that none of the people on this list have "come to
) terms with racism and antisemitism as belief sytems?" "
)
) No, I'm saying that some of you have not done so, as far as I can tell.
NO Peter - you are bold-faced Lying!! You DID NOT say "some of you"
You said:
"Some anthroposophists genuinely believe that for
purposes of public discussion, who you are is more important than what you
say, and are quite baffled when others decline to endorse this basic error."
But you went on to say:
"It may take some time, but eventually anthroposophists will
need to come to terms with racism and antisemitism as belief systems, as
worldviews, that can be examined within their historical contexts and
assessed on that basis."
"EVENTUALLY ANTHROPOSOPHISTS" not "some anthroposophists" "anthroposophists
like...(certain people you may be directly speaking with on the subject)" not
"a few anthroposophists" or even "a few misguided anthroposophists."
Which is a blanket statement and covers ALL Anthroposophists, not the "some"
who "believe...who you are is more important than what you say." Even though
this is NOT a basic error!! Politicians and leaders of all kinds say many, many
things expressly to mislead and who they are in reality is a very important
thing to understand when trying to decipher truth from falsehood in their words.
Your statement above is indubitably arrogant and presumptious and false in
its assumptions - the truth of which shine darkly through the thin veil of your
subsequent lies.
Christine
Subj: Re: Morality and Racism
Date: 3/2/2004 10:49:06 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: pstaud hotmail.com (Peter Staudenmaier)
Reply-to: waldorf-critics topica.com
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Hi Walden, thanks for your contributions on the morality and racism thread.
You wrote:
)What
)a wonderful chance for discussion of Steiner's ideas (racism,
)anti-Semitism - or not) and what do we see? The Staudenmaier Inquisition
)complete with character attacks and paranoia.
I think there is a logic to this approach, one that lines up well with the
premise that people cannot discuss topics like racism without impugning one
another's moral status. Some anthroposophists genuinely believe that for
purposes of public discussion, who you are is more important than what you
say, and are quite baffled when others decline to endorse this basic error.
The recent discussion of my politics is a perfect example of this view of
'morality'; it fits right in with the notion that critically describing and
discussing Steiner's racial doctrines is in and of itself insulting to his
moral character. It may take some time, but eventually anthroposophists will
need to come to terms with racism and antisemitism as belief systems, as
worldviews, that can be examined within their historical contexts and
assessed on that basis. Once that recognition is in place, I think it will
become much easier to talk about what Steiner said, and assess these
doctrines within their historical context, without thereby creating an
unbridgeable gulf between anthroposophist and non-anthroposophist
conceptions of who Steiner was as a person.
Peter S.
)
) "Are you saying that none of the people on this list, and by extension
"all"
) Anthroposophists have any knowledge or experience by which to examine
racism
) and/ or antisemitism as "belief systems, as world views"?"
)
) No, but I do think this is true of many of the anthroposophists I have
) encountered.
)
) "Are you saying that there is something that "we"
) don't recognize about these "belief systems [these] world views" in regard
) to their historical contexts?"
)
) Yes, several of you are apparently unfamiliar with some of the basic
) historical context of antisemitic thinking, for example. I think that is
) getting in the way of an informed discussion of the matter.
)
) "Are you saying that we are all too stupid and/ or uneducated to be able
to
) understand racism and antisemitism as "belief systems [and] world views"
) within their "historical contexts" and therefore are unable to
) "assess [them] on that basis."?"
)
) No, I don't think that stupidity or education level have anything to do
with
) it.
)
) "That way, we would all just accept what you say about the issue as truth
) and say "Amen, brother" and oh, boy, it would certainly be easier for you
to
) talk with all of us, now wouldn't it?"
)
) No, that would obviously make it much harder to talk meaningfully about
the
) topic. You shouldn't believe anything anybody says just because they say
it.
) In this case, I have not offered my own private views on the general
) historical context, I have provided very well established background
) information in order to frame our more specific discussion of Steiner's
) doctrines. I've offered you all sorts of book recommendations and article
) recommendations about the history of antisemitism and the history of racist
) thought. I think we could have a more fruitful discussion if you would take
a
) moment to look into some of them. What do you say?
)
)
) Peter
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 07:00:16 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Fwd: Morality and Racism
Christine Natale wrote:
)
)NO Peter - you are bold-faced Lying!! You DID NOT say "some of you"
)
G'day Christine,
I hope Dan will call you on this as well but I will criticise you for it
anyway. It is absolutely pointless fo you to accuse Peter of lying,
particularly when you can't prove that he is, and when such an acuusation
will get you booted off this list. Nothing you wrote after this claim
demonstrates that Peter lied. At best, you might argue that something Peter
said was inconsistent with some other thing. That may simply be a matter of
Peter being less than perfectly clear, or typographical. The evidence you
would need to establish that he was lying is essentially impossible to get
from the list. Instead, the only interpretation you can make is the same
interpretation he makes about you and others, that is that he is mistaken.
This kind of accusation is precisely why I turned down your invitation to
take part in AT. It is very instructive to read Peter's posts over there. He
never responds to this kind of nonsense except to call it irrelevant. He
addresses the arguments and the evidence.
See you, Peter
_________________________________________________________________
SEEK: Now with over 50,000 dream jobs! Click here
http://ninemsn.seek.com.au/
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1281
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Morality and Racism
By pstaud hotmail.com
FW: [Survivors-Action] FW: Camphill Community bids to divert bypass
By jaquesdm msn.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 12:37:36 -0600
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Morality and Racism
Hi Christine, you wrote:
"NO Peter - you are bold-faced Lying!!"
If you mean that, then you and I disagree about what lying means. People who
believe what they are saying are not lying, plain and simple.
"You DID NOT say "some of you""
I started out by saying "some anthroposophists" and spelled out which ones I
meant. My post was about those anthroposophists.
"Which is a blanket statement and covers ALL Anthroposophists, not the
"some" who "believe...who you are is more important than what you say.""
I disagree. My "blanket statement" referred to those anthroposophists who
believe that for purposes of public discussion, who you are is more
important than what you say.
"Even though this is NOT a basic error!!"
It is according to standard catalogues of logical fallacies. A good way to
approach public discussion of controversial topics is to ignore who you
think your interlocutors are and concentrate on what they say.
Peter
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 01:20:01 +0000
From: "David Dodds" (jaquesdm msn.com)
Subject: FW: [Survivors-Action] FW: Camphill Community bids to divert bypass
) )
) )--------
) )
) )Camphill Community bids to divert bypass
) )
) )AN INTERNATIONALLY-renowned centre, established more than 60 years ago on
) )the outskirts of Aberdeen for children and adults with special needs,
)will
) )be destroyed by proposals to drive the city's bypass through the heart of
) )the community, it was claimed yesterday.
) )
) )Full article: http://news.scotsman.com/archive.cfm?id=220362004
) )
) )[81.131.232.16]
) )
)
)_________________________________________________________________
)Tired of 56k? Get a FREE BT Broadband connection
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)(*) To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1282
-- Topica Digest --
what constitutes a lie
By feetapparel hotmail.com
true or untrue
By feetapparel hotmail.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 00:29:27 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: what constitutes a lie
Over at AT in a cointinuing discussion of lying ,
Daniel Hindes wrote:
PS: A statement that is not true, even though the author believes it to be
true, is still not true. A statement that is not true, and the author knows
it is not true, is a lie.
Peter F reponds over here.
I agree with this precisely. However, by this definition it is absolutely
clear to me that Steiner is guilty of lying as I have claimed before.
See you, Peter
_________________________________________________________________
Personalise your phone with chart ringtones and polyphonics. Go to
http://ringtones.com.au/ninemsn/control?page=/ninemsn/main.jsp
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 05:23:03 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: true or untrue
In another place I copied this from Peter S.
HI Daniel,
I disagree with your approach to quotation. Full paragraphs are rarely
warranted. There is one thing we appear to agree on. You wrote:
"A thing is either true or untrue, regardless of how we subsequently label
it or whether there is any opprobrium attached to the label."
Exactly. I say the best thing to do is ignore the opprobrium and concentrate
on whether the thing is true or untrue.
Peter
Peter F. responds:
There is a third possibility (I also do not wish to rule out the possibility
of a forth). That is the statement might be neither true or false. It might
be paradoxical. Or it might be insufficiently precise to dtermine truth or
falsehood.
On a different matter, there are aborigines (indigenous Australians or
Kooris) living in Sydney. They have been in the news somewhat lately. I
suspect that assigning a "consciousness" to individuals on the basis of the
geographical location or notions of their race is akin to racism.
See you, peter
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1283
-- Topica Digest --
the founder of anthroposophy
By nmfoss hotmail.com
Re: the founder of anthroposophy
By nmfoss hotmail.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 11:53:30 -0500
From: "Nicole Foss" (nmfoss hotmail.com)
Subject: the founder of anthroposophy
Nicole: Here's an interesting snippet from the anthroposophy_tomorrow list that all parents have a right to know before sending their children to a Waldorf school:
Tarjei:
"What you forget here is that Rudolf Steiner was not the founder of
Anthroposophy; St. Michael was. RS was only the mediator. For that reason,
what Steiner intended can be determined by examining what St. Michael has
been trying to achieve all along."
Nicole: Personally, I'd like to know "what St Michael has been trying to achieve all along" and how my children were meant to fit into that picture. Perhaps Tarjei, or another anthroposophist (Christine?), could enlighten us on that point.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 09:33:48 -0500
From: "Nicole Foss" (nmfoss hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: the founder of anthroposophy
Nicole: Here's an interesting snippet from the anthroposophy_tomorrow list that all parents have a right to know before sending their children to a Waldorf school:
Tarjei:
"What you forget here is that Rudolf Steiner was not the founder of
Anthroposophy; St. Michael was. RS was only the mediator. For that reason,
what Steiner intended can be determined by examining what St. Michael has
been trying to achieve all along."
Nicole: Personally, I'd like to know "what St Michael has been trying to achieve all along" and how my children were meant to fit into that picture. Perhaps Tarjei, or another anthroposophist (Christine?), could enlighten us on that point.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1284
-- Topica Digest --
RE: grateful graduate
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 18:43:49 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Cc: "Benson, Sarah (Sen L. Allison)" (Sarah.Benson aph.gov.au)
Subject: RE: grateful graduate
Sarah Benson, you wrote,
)You might be interested in the following. It is a letter published in
)our Victorian broadsheet, The Age, from a recent graduate of a Steiner
)school here in Melbourne, in response to an article about relgious
)education in State schools. I have included the link to the paper that
)has the name of the letter-writer, so to include it here is not an
)invasion of her privacy as it already in the public domain.
Published isn't public domain, but anyway...the letter (see text below) is at:
)http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/02/15/1076779833758.html?from=storyrhs
The original article is described:
"Secularism in schools is the start of religious tolerance"
If state school students re-enact Christian events, should they also
re-enact events from other faiths?
The original is at:
http://newsstore.theage.com.au/apps/viewDocument.ac?page=1&sy=age&kw=religion&pb=all_ffx&dt=selectRange&dr=1month&so=relevance&st=nw&sf=headline&sf=text&rc=10&rm=200&sp=nrm&clsPage=1&docID=AGE040218JRNL51UJ81E
but you have to register and deposit a minimum of AU$11.00 to read
it. The letter, with my comments:
)A sensible approach to religion in schools
)
)Thank you, Peter Carnley, for your refreshingly sensible article
)(Opinion, 11/2) regarding religious education.
)
)I sang Christmas carols at the school I attended (the Melbourne Rudolph
)Steiner School). I also celebrated Hanukah, performed in plays of
)ancient Greek and Norse myths, and studied a little of Egyptian, Roman,
)Indian, Middle Eastern and Australian Aboriginal myths and beliefs.
)
)By approaching religious education from a mythological perspective, we
)as children were not taught to see these stories as gospel truths or,
)for that matter, as silly fairytales. We were not told about the history
)of the religion itself, only the founding stories. As a result, there
)was never any pressure or prejudice for or against any one religion.
This is a strange way to teach either religion or history, "only the
founding stories." What's really happening is that Waldorf students
are being taken, experientially, through Steiner's stages of the
"evolution of consciousness" through the "sub-races" of the "Aryan
root race" that culminates in, no surprise, Central Europe.
)The advantages of this approach have, in my experience, been great. I
)developed both an interest in and a respect for all religions and their
)followers, and have since been greatly appreciative of this knowledge
)when travelling or studying subjects such as art and literature.
)
)If a balanced religious education can promote understanding between
)peoples, then surely it should be encouraged.
)
)Marleena Forward
)Croydon
I'm glad Ms. Forward acquired a feeling of "understanding between
peoples," but given Waldorf's anti-intellectual approach, a warm and
fuzzy feeling may be all that she got. Regarding balance, there's no
mention of China, the Pacific Islands, or Africa in her list. That's
because these "races" aren't part of Steiner's evolutionary
progression.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1285
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Morality and Racism
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: Morality and Racism
By Golden3000997 cs.com
Christine to Peter March 3, 2004
By Golden3000997 cs.com
Christine to Peter March 2, 2004
By Golden3000997 cs.com
Re: the founder of anthroposophy
By momof2gals mindspring.com
The Founder of Anthroposophy
By Golden3000997 cs.com
Re: the 9th year stuff
By dan dandugan.com
RE: grateful graduate
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 19:21:45 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: Morality and Racism
FWIW, I understood Peter to be addressing his comments to the "some
Anthroposophists" he referenced in an earlier paragraph.
Lisa
) From: Peter Staudenmaier (pstaud hotmail.com)
) Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 12:37:36 -0600
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Subject: Re: Morality and Racism
)
) Hi Christine, you wrote:
)
)
) "NO Peter - you are bold-faced Lying!!"
)
) If you mean that, then you and I disagree about what lying means. People who
) believe what they are saying are not lying, plain and simple.
)
) "You DID NOT say "some of you""
)
) I started out by saying "some anthroposophists" and spelled out which ones I
) meant. My post was about those anthroposophists.
)
)
) "Which is a blanket statement and covers ALL Anthroposophists, not the
) "some" who "believe...who you are is more important than what you say.""
)
) I disagree. My "blanket statement" referred to those anthroposophists who
) believe that for purposes of public discussion, who you are is more
) important than what you say.
)
) "Even though this is NOT a basic error!!"
)
) It is according to standard catalogues of logical fallacies. A good way to
) approach public discussion of controversial topics is to ignore who you
) think your interlocutors are and concentrate on what they say.
)
)
) Peter
)
) _________________________________________________________________
) Get business advice and resources to improve your work life, from bCentral.
) http://special.msn.com/bcentral/loudclear.armx
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New
) threads are always welcome.
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 20:10:37 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: Re: Morality and Racism
No he was not.
Christine
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 20:22:22 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: Christine to Peter March 3, 2004
Subj: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Fwd: Morality and Racism
Date: 3/3/2004
To: (A HREF="mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow yahoogroups.com")
anthroposophy_tomorrow yahoogroups.com(/A)
To: (A HREF="mailto:waldorf-critics topica.com")waldorf-critics topica.com(/A)
In a message dated 3/2/2004 11:20:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,
pstauden yahoo.de writes:
) Subj: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Fwd: Morality and Racism
) Date: 3/2/2004 11:20:25 PM Eastern Standard Time
) From: pstauden yahoo.de (Peter Staudenmaier)
) Reply-to: (A HREF="mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow yahoogroups.com")
anthroposophy_tomorrow yahoogroups.com(/A)
) To: anthroposophy_tomorrow yahoogroups.com
)
) Hi Christine, thanks for your post. You wrote:
)
)
) "Are you saying, Peter that none of the people on this list have "come to
) terms with racism and antisemitism as belief sytems?" "
)
) No, I'm saying that some of you have not done so, as far as I can tell.
NO Peter - you are bold-faced Lying!! You DID NOT say "some of you"
You said:
"Some anthroposophists genuinely believe that for
purposes of public discussion, who you are is more important than what you
say, and are quite baffled when others decline to endorse this basic error."
But you went on to say:
"It may take some time, but eventually anthroposophists will
need to come to terms with racism and antisemitism as belief systems, as
worldviews, that can be examined within their historical contexts and
assessed on that basis."
"EVENTUALLY ANTHROPOSOPHISTS" not "some anthroposophists" "anthroposophists
like...(certain people you may be directly speaking with on the subject)" not
"a few anthroposophists" or even "a few misguided anthroposophists."
Which is a blanket statement and covers ALL Anthroposophists, not the "some"
who "believe...who you are is more important than what you say." Even though
this is NOT a basic error!! Politicians and leaders of all kinds say many, many
things expressly to mislead and who they are in reality is a very important
thing to understand when trying to decipher truth from falsehood in their words.
Your statement above is indubitably arrogant and presumptious and false in
its assumptions - the truth of which shine darkly through the thin veil of your
subsequent lies.
Christine
Subj: Re: Morality and Racism
Date: 3/2/2004 10:49:06 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: pstaud hotmail.com (Peter Staudenmaier)
Reply-to: waldorf-critics topica.com
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Hi Walden, thanks for your contributions on the morality and racism thread.
You wrote:
)What
)a wonderful chance for discussion of Steiner's ideas (racism,
)anti-Semitism - or not) and what do we see? The Staudenmaier Inquisition
)complete with character attacks and paranoia.
I think there is a logic to this approach, one that lines up well with the
premise that people cannot discuss topics like racism without impugning one
another's moral status. Some anthroposophists genuinely believe that for
purposes of public discussion, who you are is more important than what you
say, and are quite baffled when others decline to endorse this basic error.
The recent discussion of my politics is a perfect example of this view of
'morality'; it fits right in with the notion that critically describing and
discussing Steiner's racial doctrines is in and of itself insulting to his
moral character. It may take some time, but eventually anthroposophists will
need to come to terms with racism and antisemitism as belief systems, as
worldviews, that can be examined within their historical contexts and
assessed on that basis. Once that recognition is in place, I think it will
become much easier to talk about what Steiner said, and assess these
doctrines within their historical context, without thereby creating an
unbridgeable gulf between anthroposophist and non-anthroposophist
conceptions of who Steiner was as a person.
Peter S.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 20:21:33 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: Christine to Peter March 2, 2004
Subj: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Fwd: Morality and Racism
Date: 3/2/2004
To: (A HREF="mailto:anthroposophy_tomorrow yahoogroups.com")
anthroposophy_tomorrow yahoogroups.com(/A)
To: (A HREF="mailto:waldorf-critics topica.com")waldorf-critics topica.com(/A)
In a message dated 3/2/2004 8:58:11 PM Eastern Standard Time,
golden3000997 cs.com writes:
) It may take some time, but eventually anthroposophists will
) need to come to terms with racism and antisemitism as belief systems, as
) worldviews, that can be examined within their historical contexts and
) assessed on that basis. Once that recognition is in place, I think it will
) become much easier to talk about what Steiner said, and assess these
) doctrines within their historical context,
Are you saying, Peter that none of the people on this list have "come to
terms with racism and antisemitism as belief sytems?" Are you saying that none of
the people on this list, and by extension "all" Anthroposophists have any
knowledge or experience by which to examine racism and/ or antisemitism as "belief
systems, as world views"? Are you saying that there is something that "we"
don't recognize about these "belief systems [these] world views" in regard to
their historical contexts? Mind you - you said "historical contexts" NOT
"Anthropsophical contexts". Are you saying that we are all too stupid and/ or
uneducated to be able to understand racism and antisemitism as "belief systems [and]
world views" within their "historical contexts" and therefore are unable to
"assess [them] on that basis."?
Because that is exactly what you are saying AND what would make it "much
easier to talk about what Steiner said, and assess these doctrines within their
historical context," would be if we all were actually too stupid and uneducated
to assess racism and antisemitism within their historical contexts. That way,
we would all just accept what you say about the issue as truth and say "Amen,
brother" and oh, boy, it would certainly be easier for you to talk with all of
us, now wouldn't it?
Christine
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 19:20:26 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: the founder of anthroposophy
I was a Waldorf parent for almost six years and have spent the last four
studying Steiner and Anthroposophy, and this is the first time I have heard
someone say that Steiner did NOT found Anthroposophy, that he was only the
vehicle through which St. Michael (pronounced the Anthro way: mah-k-eye-el)
spoke and acted. (In fact, if anyone can tell me why Waldorf teachers
pronounce the name "Michael" that way, I would be appreciative.)
Like Nicole, I would be interested in more info on this. What was St.
Michael trying to achieve, and how did Steiner know that?
Lisa
) From: Nicole Foss (nmfoss hotmail.com)
) Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 09:33:48 -0500
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Subject: Re: the founder of anthroposophy
)
)
) Nicole: Here's an interesting snippet from the anthroposophy_tomorrow list
) that all parents have a right to know before sending their children to a
) Waldorf school:
)
) Tarjei:
) "What you forget here is that Rudolf Steiner was not the founder of
) Anthroposophy; St. Michael was. RS was only the mediator. For that reason,
) what Steiner intended can be determined by examining what St. Michael has
) been trying to achieve all along."
)
) Nicole: Personally, I'd like to know "what St Michael has been trying to
) achieve all along" and how my children were meant to fit into that picture.
) Perhaps Tarjei, or another anthroposophist (Christine?), could enlighten us on
) that point.
)
)
) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New
) threads are always welcome.
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 21:35:13 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: The Founder of Anthroposophy
Dear Lisa et al,
It is pronounced "mi-cha-el" just like you would say "ga-bri-el" and
"ra-pha-el". The "el" at the end of each name means "God". Michael means "countenance
of God".
The Archangel Michael, as we take him to be, is "The Founder of
Anthroposophy" because he is the supreme champion of the development of Human Freedom and
the "I" or Individuality of each Human Being. He slays the dragon of the
falsehood of materialism and protects the Eternal Feminine who gives birth to the
New Human Being.
Rudolf Steiner spoke of a "Michael School" which took place in the 1800s in
which many, many individualities who were about to come into physical
incarnation were "enrolled". This "school" brought souls together who had been pursuing
many different paths to the Spiritual World and taught them (literally) how
the piece of the cosmic puzzle through the long ages of time fit together and
how crucial it is for each Human Being to find his or her own direct way to the
Spiritual World and to the Christ Being from with in their physical life.
This was not an "indoctrination" - it was a bringing together of people who had
sought truth and love throughout the ages and united them in knowledge and
purpose.
Rudolf Steiner was a great teacher of this "Michael School" - not a guru, not
a "cult leader", not a person interested in interfering with or directing
other people's free will. But a true teacher - one who made himself available to
the Spiritual World and to the Human Beings now living in the material world.
Not as a "channel" or "sleeping prophet" but one who worked to be able to
perceive Spiritual reality as concretely and objectively as any person can
perceive the physical world. And he worked to make not only the knowledge about this
objective reality available to people, but a safe, moral and fully concious
path to knowledge of this spiritual reality so that they would be able to
develop the "tools" of spiritual perception in a healthy and verifiable way.
All of the work of Rudolf Steiner is directly inspired by the Archangel
Michael as the "countenance" or "representative" of the Christ Being - the
Archetype of all Humankind - ALL. Not one word is meant to be or expected to be or
really, allowed to be taken on "faith" or because "he said so." Every word is
given in Freedom and can ONLY be taken in Freedom or rejected in Freedom. By the
same token, every word and every spiritual impulse behind those words is given
to Humanity as a Whole - not one person excluded, not one person judged for
"worthiness" or even for capacity to understand. Just as the Sun shines on
every person who steps out of his or her house, so does the Light of Truth shine
for all who choose to open their "eyes" - their hearts and minds.
How each person chooses to do this; why each person chooses to do this; what
results in each person who chooses to do this is entirely their own business.
No one judges or has a right to judge. Even when ideas or interpretations of
ideas get misinterpreted or distorted - unintentionally or intentionally -
often others do not interfere, exactly because of the great respect every person
who is a student of Rudolf Steiner has for the "I" of the other person and the
responsibility that each one carries for what lives inside his or her true
individuality. This can create problems, due to the fallability of people, but it
stands in opposition to the "dogmatic" view of "religious truth" that has
carried humanity through up to now. We stand at the Threshold of an age in which
we cannot and will not be led "blindly" by churches, governments or any other
social institution. Mankind faces the challenge of having to "stand on our own
two feet." We see in our time mostly tragedy occuring when people try to go
back to various forms of "group conciousness" in their spiritual strivings.
There can be a community of the heart involved in Anthroposophy, but never one
which expects the Individual to "surrender" his or her own knowledge,
discernment and freedom of thought, word or deed.
What is it that the Archangel Michael is "trying to achieve" through Rudolf
Steiner and all who choose freely to take up a work such as Waldorf Education?
It is always and absolutely that each and every individual shall find an
environment, a community and a vocation that allows as much as possible (given the
limits of space, time and the wider social fabric of our time) that person to
fulfill the intentions that he or she came into this earth existence with.
That each human being, to the best of whatever the circumstances will allow have
a childhood which allows him or her to develop in as healthy a way as
possible; that allows for a gradual sequence of unfolding of abilities, talents and
interests; that strives to work for harmonizing potentially harmful tendencies;
that seeks the kind of balance of Form and Freedom that gives the growing
human being both encouragement to grow and healthy boundaries; that works to
nurture in each developing human being a profound respect for life, for the earth,
for every form of life on the earth, for each other and for him and her self;
that brings to each child the as many of the infinite names and faces and
manifestations of God as possible, so that he or she may discover the "door" in
his or her own heart that opens easily to God in whatever form or manifestation
that person desires and requires.
Perhaps you and others have encountered "Anthroposophists", "Waldorf
Schools", "Waldorf Teachers" etc. who fail miserably to live up to the statements
above. Have you ever known a "Christian" to fail to live up to the teachings of
Christ? I know that I have failed, pretty much every day of my life and may
continue to fail for several more lifetimes. Without the hope of and knowledge of
and experience of Forgiveness, I know that I could never try again. I believe
that there are others who would feel the same way. Have we failed you and your
children in some way? I do not doubt it if you say so. Speaking for myself, I
feel it deeply and I know it from every side. I have been on the receiving
end of unkindness and lack of understanding as well - from my "fellow" Steiner
people and Waldorf people.
But I have also seen and heard and experienced those moments of love and
understanding and true acceptance such as I have never seen or experienced
anywhere else. I have had my moments, too when real, viable good was accomplished,
even by me - moments I can attest to and carry with me with pride for my efforts
and reverance for the guidance that I received in the process.
Do we have a long way to go? Absolutely! We are still in the infancy of the
work. There are still a many years and many "miles" to go. The Archangel
Michael guides us and helps us when we ask for help, but he does not do the work for
us. He does not expect us to "surrender" our wills. He expects us (all human
beings) to strengthen our Will and through our Free Will to work for the Power
of Love and Truth that lives within each and every one of us.
With respect,
Christine
Rudolf Steiner - found at the end of "Study of Man"
Teacher's Verse at Faculty Meetings
Imbue thyself with the Power of Imagination
Have Courage for the Truth
Sharpen thy Feeling for Responsibility of Soul
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 22:04:29 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: the 9th year stuff
madpark nildram.co.uk wrote:
)Can someone please explain the 9th year stuff they talk about?
[Childs, Gilbert. Steiner Education: in theory and practice.
Edinburgh: Floris Books, 1991, pp. 92-93]
"The undesirability of appealing directly to the intellect of the
child before puberty has already been discussed from the
spiritual-scientific point of view, but the rationale behind the
reluctance to teach the children to read before the age of eight or
nine was not specifically dealt with. It may be recalled that, at
about the age of nine the child develops or acquires a heightened
sense of selfhood; it feels more of an individuality. It feels less
sympathetic-in the technical sense-towards its surroundings, it feels
less at one with them. Conversely, it feels more antipathetic to its
environment, and this it is which helps to induce the enhanced
self-consciousness; the child is capable of greater powers of
objectification and therefore a sharpened capacity for the
intellectual process of apprehending concepts. It would follow,
therefore, that it is most appropriate for the child to learn to read
at the age of eight or nine, and Steiner frequently reiterated this."
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 21:48:39 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: RE: grateful graduate
Sarah Benson, you wrote:
)Dan, my impression is that you've made up your mind that Waldorf
)education has no merit at all.
There are many things about Waldorf that I still like after fifteen
years of critical study, but the system is so shot through with
nonsense that I don't think it can be reformed.
)I can't see why you're still involved in
)this discussion.
Because the Steiner cult fascinates me. Because I know what it's
about and I won't tolerate making taxpayers pay for it.
)Move on, get a life.
I have a wonderfully full life, thanks for your advice anyway. Let's
talk about the topic, not me, please. I wrote,
)What's really happening is that Waldorf students
)are being taken, experientially, through Steiner's stages of the
)"evolution of consciousness" through the "sub-races" of the "Aryan
)root race" that culminates in, no surprise, Central Europe.
Is this the first time you've heard that the framework of ancient
history in the fifth and sixth grades is based on a racial theory of
history? I realize it can be a bit shocking.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1286
-- Topica Digest --
re: the founder of Anthroposophy
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: grateful graduate
By Golden3000997 cs.com
Re: The Founder of Anthroposophy
By nmfoss hotmail.com
Re: grateful graduate
By dan dandugan.com
Re: The Founder of Anthroposophy
By feetapparel hotmail.com
Re: The Founder of Anthroposophy
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Cult - NOT
By Golden3000997 cs.com
Cult - NOT
By Golden3000997 cs.com
websites in which "Anthroposophy" and the word "cult" are linked
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: websites in which "Anthroposophy" and the word "cult" are linked
By Golden3000997 cs.com
Re: the 9th year stuff
By Golden3000997 cs.com
Re: the 9th year stuff
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: The Founder of Anthroposophy
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Cult - NOT
By dan dandugan.com
Re: the 9th year stuff
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Cult - NOT
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 07:34:50 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: re: the founder of Anthroposophy
Christine tells us:
Rudolf Steiner was a great teacher of this "Michael School" - not a guru,
not
a "cult leader", not a person interested in interfering with or directing
other people's free will. But a true teacher - one who made himself
available to
the Spiritual World and to the Human Beings now living in the material
world.
Not as a "channel" or "sleeping prophet" but one who worked to be able to
perceive Spiritual reality as concretely and objectively as any person can
perceive the physical world ..
Lisa: But Christine, how can you know this for sure? How can you prove (you
can't) that Steiner could perceive "spiritual reality as concretely and
objectively as any person can perceive the physical world?"
You take that Steiner could perceive spiritual realities in the same
manner as ordinary people perceive, say, a chair and desk in front of them,
on faith. There is no way to prove this; like in any other religion,
followers *believe* because the "truth" offered by their
guru/teacher/minister/rabbi/imam, etc. appeals to them, explains something
about the universe, is comforting and makes the big questions of human
existence more bearable.
I don't think anyone here would quarrel with your right to believe what
you want about Steiner and whether his teachings are truth. That's your
choice.
What is troublesome, however, is the fact that followers of any
religion/faith path/etc. insist that their way is THE way, the truth, and if
only the rest of us unenlightened would just listen, study, and so on, we,
too, would "get" it.
Bottom line: just because you *choose* to believe something does not make
it true. There is simply no way to prove that what Steiner said and taught
is real.
--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 07:56:35 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: Re: grateful graduate
Mr. Dugan,
There is no such thing as a "Steiner cult" and you know it. This is a vicious
and evil lie and I have already forwarded you substantial definitions of what
a cult is and isn't and how, according to those definitions neither
Anthroposophy nor Waldorf Education is, was or ever will be a cult.
Given the true meaning of the word "cult" in this society as a group which
manipulates and abuses its members, applying this word to the Anthroposophical
Society and the Waldorf Movement is absolute slander and libel.
You will be held responsible for both your use of this word and the intention
behind it, hopefully in court.
I would suggest that in your search for the truth about Anthroposophy and
Waldorf Education, you do some objective research on the definition and correct
application of the word "cult"; that you cease using it immediately in
connection with either Waldorf Education or the Anthroposophical Society; and that
you print a retraction of your former use of the word in relation to either one
of these entities.
I am pretty sure that your egotism will not allow you to admit that you are
wrong and to do the right thing. But I hope for your sake that I am wrong in
that evaluation, just as you are terribly wrong in yours.
Christine Natale
March 9, 2004
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 09:26:46 -0500
From: "Nicole Foss" (nmfoss hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: The Founder of Anthroposophy
Christine wrote: Rudolf Steiner spoke of a "Michael School" which took place in the 1800s in
which many, many individualities who were about to come into physical
incarnation were "enrolled". This "school" brought souls together who had been pursuing
many different paths to the Spiritual World and taught them (literally) how
the piece of the cosmic puzzle through the long ages of time fit together and
how crucial it is for each Human Being to find his or her own direct way to the
Spiritual World and to the Christ Being from with in their physical life.
This was not an "indoctrination" - it was a bringing together of people who had
sought truth and love throughout the ages and united them in knowledge and
purpose.
Nicole: Thank you for your explanation of the anthroposophical worldview. I very much appreciate your taking the time to provide it. This is very much the sort of information that parents need to have in order to make an informed choice about Waldorf education.
Christine wrote: All of the work of Rudolf Steiner is directly inspired by the Archangel
Michael as the "countenance" or "representative" of the Christ Being - the
Archetype of all Humankind - ALL. Not one word is meant to be or expected to be or
really, allowed to be taken on "faith" or because "he said so." Every word is
given in Freedom and can ONLY be taken in Freedom or rejected in Freedom. By the
same token, every word and every spiritual impulse behind those words is given
to Humanity as a Whole - not one person excluded, not one person judged for
"worthiness" or even for capacity to understand. Just as the Sun shines on
every person who steps out of his or her house, so does the Light of Truth shine
for all who choose to open their "eyes" - their hearts and minds.
Nicole: I agree with Lisa that accepting what Steiner said as truth must be a matter of faith as there is no way to verify it. You either believe that he was a clairvoyant Master and therefore had privileged access to the Akashic Record (the cosmic memory of all human existence according to Steiner), or you do not. This 'fact' cannot be investigated independently and objectively.
I am glad you have found a 'truth' which gives your life purpose, but please understand that your 'truth' is not my 'truth'. The anthroposophical worldview is not compatible with mine and I would have appreciated it if the Waldorf school my children attended had been more forthcoming with their 'philosophy' before we enrolled. I would then have made a different educational choice for my family. Thank you for helping to inform prospective parents.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:39:09 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: grateful graduate
)Mr. Dugan,
)
)There is no such thing as a "Steiner cult" and you know it.
(gumpvoice) Cults is as cults does. (/gumpvoice)
)This is a vicious
)and evil lie and I have already forwarded you substantial definitions of what
)a cult is and isn't and how, according to those definitions neither
)Anthroposophy nor Waldorf Education is, was or ever will be a cult.
My opinion differs from yours.
)Given the true meaning of the word "cult" in this society as a group which
)manipulates and abuses its members, applying this word to the Anthroposophical
)Society and the Waldorf Movement is absolute slander and libel.
It isn't libel to state an opinion, nor is it libel to point out
facts. I call Anthroposophy a cult-like religious sect. There is
abundant evidence to support this opinion.
)You will be held responsible for both your use of this word and the intention
)behind it, hopefully in court.
)
)I would suggest that in your search for the truth about Anthroposophy and
)Waldorf Education, you do some objective research on the definition
)and correct
)application of the word "cult"; that you cease using it immediately in
)connection with either Waldorf Education or the Anthroposophical
)Society; and that
)you print a retraction of your former use of the word in relation to
)either one
)of these entities.
So sue me. We'd love to have publicity about this issue.
)I am pretty sure that your egotism will not allow you to admit that you are
)wrong and to do the right thing. But I hope for your sake that I am wrong in
)that evaluation, just as you are terribly wrong in yours.
)
)Christine Natale
)March 9, 2004
Christine, your religion will get more respect when it starts
behaving respectably. Here is a list of cult-like characteristics
that's published on the PLANS web site:
Posted to waldorf-critics On 2/9/99 by Dan Dugan...
Cult-like characteristics of Anthroposophy include:
* It clings to rejected knowledge.
(The heart is not a pump, etc.)
* It requires teachers to commit to the world-view for advancement in status.
(college of teachers)
* Its core doctrines are not published.
(First Class)
* It is exclusive.
(Only Anthroposophical knowledge of man leads to right education)
* It guards revelation of "difficult" knowledge.
(Prospective parents won't be told about the role of Lucifer)
* It is a closed system.
(Almost all publications referenced are from Anthroposophical presses
and periodicals, all writers refer to Steiner)
* It uses jargon that redefines common terms.
(Child development)
* It maintains separation from the world by generating fear and loathing.
(Denigrating public schools, "us vs them" attitude, paranoia)
* It suppresses critical dialogue, resulting in elaboration but no
development of theory.
(Consensus government, "like it or leave," Shunning)
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 21:05:24 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: The Founder of Anthroposophy
Nicole wrote:
I agree with Lisa that accepting what Steiner said as truth must be a matter
of faith as there is no way to verify it. You either believe that he was a
clairvoyant Master and therefore had privileged access to the Akashic Record
(the cosmic memory of all human existence according to Steiner), or you do
not. This 'fact' cannot be investigated independently and objectively.
)
Peter F. adds:
I don't agree with this. It seems to me that at least some of what Steiner
said and claimed does fall into the class of those things that can be tested
independently of this faith. Much of biodynamic practice, Anthroposophical
medical practce, aspects of the educational approach, and much of his
writings on scientific matters can be examined with a view to verification
or to falsification. My own opinion is that a great deal of what Steiner had
to say is evidently incorrect. If what he had to say on issues that we can
independently test is wrong, why should we not make a skeptical judgement of
what he had to say which is harder or impossible to test.
See you, Peter
_________________________________________________________________
Find love today with ninemsn personals. Click here:
http://ninemsn.match.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 17:22:44 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: The Founder of Anthroposophy
Lisa here: Peter F., of course what you say is correct: one *can* and many
probably already *have* tested some of Steiner's theories and teachings and
found them to be invalid.
My statement that followers must decide to put faith in Steiner without
proof referred to Christine's assertion that Steiner could see the spiritual
world as clearly as we ordinary mortals see the table or chair or grass in
front of us. Indeed, there is no way to prove that. (And I do not believe
it.)
) From: Peter Farrell (feetapparel hotmail.com)
) Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 21:05:24 +0000
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Subject: Re: The Founder of Anthroposophy
)
) Nicole wrote:
) I agree with Lisa that accepting what Steiner said as truth must be a matter
) of faith as there is no way to verify it. You either believe that he was a
) clairvoyant Master and therefore had privileged access to the Akashic Record
) (the cosmic memory of all human existence according to Steiner), or you do
) not. This 'fact' cannot be investigated independently and objectively.
))
)
) Peter F. adds:
) I don't agree with this. It seems to me that at least some of what Steiner
) said and claimed does fall into the class of those things that can be tested
) independently of this faith. Much of biodynamic practice, Anthroposophical
) medical practce, aspects of the educational approach, and much of his
) writings on scientific matters can be examined with a view to verification
) or to falsification. My own opinion is that a great deal of what Steiner had
) to say is evidently incorrect. If what he had to say on issues that we can
) independently test is wrong, why should we not make a skeptical judgement of
) what he had to say which is harder or impossible to test.
) See you, Peter
)
) _________________________________________________________________
) Find love today with ninemsn personals. Click here:
) http://ninemsn.match.com
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New
) threads are always welcome.
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 18:37:19 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: Cult - NOT
In their efforts to acquire a base of support for their legal efforts against
Waldorf Charter Schools, PLANS has actively sought particular statements by
Rudolf Steiner and passages from published books and books of lectures that can
be interpreted to make Rudolf Steiner, the philosophical movement known as
Anthroposophy and by association, the Waldorf School Movement to appear to be an
elitist, racist organization that promotes a narrow world view that seeks to
involve people in a cult movement. The words "racism" and "cult" are powerful
buzz words in this culture and are very effective in promoting an emotional
backlash toward any group associated with them. PLANS has been well aware that
the use of these words would gain them a large number of supporters who may
other wise have no particular objection to the presence of Waldorf Education in
their public school classroom, indeed, who may not have had any particular
interest in it, one way or another. The WC/ PLANS organization has gone out of its
way to paint the Anthroposophical Movement and everyone in it with the
National Socialism emblem and to associate it emotionally with a neo-nazi cult
mentality. This is a libelous association which does a severe injustice to the
movement at large and to the widely diverse philosophical, social and political
backgrounds of its members and associates. It is my belief that PLANS has a
legal basis for removal of Waldorf Education from the public school system without
this defamation of character (although support for its objectives may have
been slower to come and smaller in scope). The association of WE/ Anthroposophy
with either word must be stopped and irrefutable evidence brought forward into
the arenas of legal and social opinion that both Anthroposophy and Waldorf
Education are in concept and practice universally human and make no qualitative
or quantitative differential between any persons in respect to race, creed,
color, sex or national origin. In fact, Waldorf Schools for example are more
universally inclusive in both concept and practice than many private school
systems and organizations and have a curriculum in which is built a basic
introduction to every religious thought system of mankind - ancient and modern. To my
knowledge, no other school system has this claim to make.
As to the use of the word "cult" in relation to either the Anthroposophical
Movement or the Waldorf Education Movement, this is also a libelous allegation
and it does not stand up against current definitions of "cult" which can be
found in movement such as the following:
www.factnet.org
American Family Foundation (AFF)
Community Resources on Influence & Control (CRIC)
Cult Awareness & Information Centre, Australia
Cult Awareness Network (CAN)
Cult Hotline & Clinic
Cult Information Center (CIC)
Dialog Center International (DCI)
Escape
Ex-Cult Archive
FAIR
Info Cult
reFOCUS Network
Religious Movement Resource Center
Resource Center for Freedom of Mind
The Ross Institute
V.V.P.G. vzw
Watchman Fellowship
Wellspring Retreat and Resource Center
Cult Information Service
The Ex Cult Member Organization
While any group of people whose stated purpose is to study and possibly put
into practice the ideas and teachings of any individual, living or dead, can be
viewed to a certain point as a "cult", which would include by such
definition, all recognized churches and philosophical organizations, the use of "cult"
in the context of attack against the Waldorf School and Anthropsophical
movements has been an attempt to associate them with the concept of "coersive
persuasion". Cults which perform the actions and reactions that make of the technique
of "coersive persuasion" use the following tactics as outlined at
www.factnet.org:
*******************
HOW TO DETERMINE IF A GROUP IS A DESTRUCTIVE CULT
Q) Anybody can unfairly attack a group they disagree with by calling it a
cult or saying they are using coercive mind control. How does FACTNet prevent
this type of problem and determine fairly whether or not a group is a cult?
A) FACTNet uses specific criteria to determine if a mind control system has
been used, and does not suggest organizations are destructive or dangerous
cults without careful research and determination that the evidence fits definite
criteria. These criteria are threefold.
The first set of criteria comes from the group' use of a specific set of mind
control tactics. Please see "A technical overview of mind control tactics" at
http://www.factnet.org/rancho1.htm for details or see
http://www.factnet.org/coercivemindcontrol.html for a shorter version. These two documents are
derived from the work of Dr. Margaret Singer professor emeritus at the University of
California at Berkeley the acknowledged leading authority in the world on
mind control and cults.
The second set of criteria has to do with defining other common elements of
mind control systems, as defined by Robert Jay Lifton's eight point model of
thought reform. Please see "Robert Jay Lifton's Eight Point Model of Thought
Reform" also at http://www.factnet.org/rancho1.htm. If most points in this model
are being used in a cultic organization, it is most likely a dangerous and
destructive cult.
The third set of criteria have to do with defining common elements of
destructive and dangerous cults. The following section will help clarify what some of
those specific elements and criteria are.
Common Properties of Potentially Destructive and Dangerous Cults
The cult is authoritarian in its power structure. The leader is regarded as
the supreme authority. He or she may delegate certain power to a few
subordinates for the purpose of seeing that members adhere to the leader's wishes and
roles. There is no appeal outside of his or her system to greater systems of
justice. For example, if a school teacher
feels unjustly treated by a principal, appeals can be made. In a cult, the
leader claims to have the only and final ruling on all matters.
The cult's leaders tend to be charismatic, determined, and domineering. They
persuade followers to drop their families, jobs, careers, and friends to
follow them. They (not the individual) then take over control of their followers'
possessions, money, lives.
The cult's leaders are self-appointed, messianic persons who claim to have a
special mission in life. For example, the flying saucer cult leaders claim
that people from outer space have commissioned them to lead people to special
places to await a space ship.
The cult's leaders center the veneration of members upon themselves. Priests,
rabbis, ministers, democratic leaders, and leaders of genuinely altruistic
movements keep the veneration of adherents focused on God, abstract principles,
and group purposes. Cult leaders, in contrast, keep the focus of love,
devotion, and allegiance on themselves.
The cult tends to be totalitarian in its control of the behavior of its
members. Cults are likely to dictate in great detail what members wear, eat, when
and where they work, sleep, and bathe-as well as what to believe, think, and
say.
The cult tends to have a double set of ethics. Members are urged to be open
and honest within the group, and confess all to the leaders. On the other hand,
they are encouraged to deceive and manipulate outsiders or nonmembers.
Established religions teach members to be honest and truthful to all, and to abide
by one set of ethics.
The cult has basically only two purposes, recruiting new members and
fund-raising. Established religions and altruistic movements may also recruit and
raise funds. However, their sole purpose is not to grow larger; such groups have
the goals to better the lives of their members and mankind in general. The
cults may claim to make social contributions, but in actuality these remain mere
claims, or gestures. Their focus is always dominated by recruiting new members
and fund-raising.
The cult appears to be innovative and exclusive. The leader claims to be
breaking with tradition, offering something novel, and instituting the only viable
system for change that will solve life's problems or the world's ills. While
claiming this, the cult then surreptitiously uses systems of psychological
coercion on its members to inhibit their ability to examine the actual validity
of the claims of the leader and the cult.
*****************************
A careful, honest and factual study of Rudolf Steiner and the
Anthroposophical movement will prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that NONE of the above
criteria apply. The last criterium seems to be the one that the WC/PLANS groups most
want to associate with the WE movement. However, the following is in fact the
truth:
1. Rudolf Steiner carefully placed his teaching in the context of objective
world history and scientific fact as it was known through 1925.
Anthroposophists since 1925 have constantly re-examined the original world to see if it
remains valid in light of developments in both fields since 1925.
2. There is no social, economic or political structure in place anywhere in
the world by which the Anthroposophical Society headquartered in Dornach,
Switzerland or the Anthroposophical Society at large can influence anyone to join
the movement, pay money to the movement or limit their personal expression and/
or interpretation of Rudolf Steiner's material. There is no persuasive
element, either obvious or covert that can or tries to put pressure on anyone inside
or outside of the organization to "believe" anything that Dr. Steiner said or
to support through words, deeds or money any ideas contained in his work or
any individuals who have gone on to work with his ideas. Members of the
Anthroposophical Movement are not under any directive, spoken or unspoken as to what
they wear, eat, read, watch, listen to, say or do. Members are never
encouraged in any way (direct or indirect) to avoid or ignore other religious
teachings, scientific findings or philosophical, social or political ideologies.
Members are never requested, directly or indirectly, to locate in a geographic area
or to limit or restrict their contacts with any family members or friends
outside the "movement." Members are never requested or required to reliquish any
memberships or associations with any other religious, political or social
organizations. Members are never limited or restricted in participating in the work
or society of the movement through judgments or evaluations by other members,
other than considerations of basic civic and ethical proprieties. Members do
not hold in "veneration" any other member of the society, either living or
dead, including Rudolf Steiner, beyond an affectionate respect. Members do not
actively recruit people to join the Anthroposophical Society, nor is there any
such recruitement system in existence. Members are never solicited for money
except for yearly dues if active, subscription fees for publications and
occasional appeals for economic assistance for specific projects, the response to
which is always voluntary and confidential.
3. Rudolf Steiner never promoted himself or allowed himself to be promoted as
a cult leader or figure. In point of fact, when the Anthroposophical Society
was created, after a group of people wished to separate themselves from the
Theosophical Society, Rudolf Steiner was asked to be the "President" of the
Society. He refused the position, while agreeing to be involved as a teacher and
lecturer. It was only after the burning of the first Goetheanum in Dornach on
New Year's Eve, 1921, that Rudolf Steiner accepted the position of the
President of the Anthroposophical Society in an effort to renew the courage and
vitality of the worldwide movement in the face of brutal attack (my interpretation).
Rudolf Steiner maintained avidly the supreme importance of the individual's
study of Anthroposophical concepts on their own, and their own personal
connection with and committment to those ideas. He refused point blank on many
occasions to tell any person what he or she "ought to do" in any given situation,
personal or Society related. He stated definitively on many occasions what the
result (physical, emotional or spiritual) was of particular human activities,
but he expressly left it to the individual to do or not do what he or she saw
fit.
The other primary objection that I have to the tactics and strategies of the
WC/ PLANS groups is the use of personal problems as being illustrative of
problems to be found worldwide inherently in the practice of Waldorf Education. By
this I mean, that while each individual parent or family has a perfect right
to express dissatisfaction with the methods and practice of Waldorf Education
in relation to themselves, they repeatedly infer that Waldorf methods and
techniques are inherently destructive to all students and their families. They
also characterize all Waldorf Teachers and Waldorf Schools as being uniformly
alike and "mindless" in their application of those methods and techniques. This
is far from the truth and borders on a "smear" campaign. In the stories that I
have read so far on their websites, I find no indication that the whole story
is being told or that the parents feel themselves to have had any
responsibility for the outcomes of the situations they are describing.
I personally have never known two Waldorf teachers to be exactly alike on
anything! I have never known any Waldorf teachers who are instructed to "take
Steiner's word for it." or who would consent to do so. I have known Waldorf
teachers who were not Anthroposophists and many who considered themselves
Anthroposophists but who also participated in other religious or philosophical groups
at the same time. There were conflicts from time to time when several teachers,
usually with a group of parents, tried to promote an outside sect (for
example, Sufiism) in a school in a way that interfered with standard Waldorf
curriculum and practice.
I can't even remember having had any "Anthroposophical" parents in the
initiative schools that I taught at. (I'm trying to remember if there were.) I have
had classes of children whose parents ranged from "pagan" to "Christian" with
everything possible in between. I can't remember any Moslems, but I have
written an article called "Religion in the Waldorf Schools" which outlines why I
think most fundamentalist Christian or Moslem parents would not choose a Waldorf
School for their children. The Waldorf curriculum is specifically designed to
expose all of the students to all major world religions at the appropriate
age and stage of development of the child. Any parent with a strong
fundamentalist or atheistic view would quite rightly not choose a Waldorf School for his
or her child. Every parent should be made aware of the Waldorf curriculum and
how it is taught as soon as they approach the school for information.
Lastly, I object to the tactic used by both the Waldorf Critics and PLANS
groups of asking for answers to their questions or objections then refusing to
listen to the answers or information provided or to acknowledge the honest and
open minded efforts of Waldorf supporters. This is a common strategy (concious
or otherwise) of groups and individuals who adopt an offensive approach.
Questions asked with this motivation are designed only as springboards to further
attacks and the position in taken in which it is assumed that the side being
attacked will not provide any meaningful answers. The motivation here is not one
of inquiry and research but of adversarial debate. Since PLANS has a legal
agenda to promote, it makes sense to use the political debate forum as a model.
Unfortunately, political debates are not designed to reach understanding and
consenus of opinion. They are designed to be emotionally charged and devisive
and usually, to mask real problems behind the buzz words and catch phrases of
popular "issues." A real mutual study of Waldorf methods and educational
perspectives in the light of other philosophies and techniques of education in use
today in both public and private schools would be a really useful tool for
educators and parents in the Waldorf Movement and outside of it. Like any other
practice, in art or science, there is always room for evaluation and adaptation.
Human beings are never static, children the least of all. There is something
new to be learned every day. We do not live in the same world as Rudolf
Steiner, Maria Montessori, Piaget, Froebel, Dewey, Aristotle, Albertus Comenius,
Sylvia Ashton-Warner or any other wonderful educator or educational philosopher
that we can study and learn from. Every idea has to be metamorphosed into
today's lesson, today's experience.
I have heard experienced Waldorf teachers say that after they have completed
an eight year journey with one class, when they come to take a second First
Grade, it is like they never taught before. The world has already changed and
the children have changed too. So has the teacher. It is a different concept
from the kind of school where a teacher may teach Third Grade for thirty years,
after a while possibly falling into a "routine" of teaching the same material
the same way, no matter what the children may bring into the classroom,
adapting only to material obtained from time to time through required "teacher
refresher" courses mandated by the state. This repetition of material has as its
very good intention the goal of making a teacher an "expert" in his or her field
and niche of curriculum. It does not, however, failsafe against mistakes that
the teacher may make, in some cases repeatedly. It does not guarantee the
optimisation of student learning from year to year. It does not guarantee that
every child in a public school will be understood and evaluated as an individual
and that each child's strengths and weaknesses will be factored into the
learning process by every teacher he meets in the course of eight years. Waldorf
schools cannot make that guarantee, either. But the fact that the teacher must
"live" with the results of his or her mistakes over the course of eight years
and cannot pass them off to another teacher in the following year, means that
the teacher is inherently making a committment to self evaluation and continued
learning and growth. The smaller size of any private school and the more
intimate working together of parents and teachers to promote and support the
school offers the opportunity for more frequent dialogue and communication. It may
also lead to more heartbreak when such communication breaks down, but it is a
very human risk and must be weighed against the kind of state school system
where the communication is less frequent and more artificially constructed and
censored.
Waldorf Education requires the following principles, the three H's of
education, from every one of its participants - parent or teacher:
Honesty - to be ruthlessly honest with one's self and tactfully honest with
each other
Humility - to be ready to learn and adapt to what comes both from the
children and from the community
Honor - to honor both the ideals which live in one's own heart, mind and soul
and to honor what lives in the heart, mind and soul of the other, whether
child or adult
To the extent to which any group that seeks to criticize or challenge the
Waldorf School Movement and its Members, that group should adopt, promote and
defend these three principles as well.
Christine Natale
February 8, 2004
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 18:38:19 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: Cult - NOT
In a message dated 3/9/2004 2:55:30 PM Eastern Standard Time,
dan dandugan.com writes:
) Cult-like characteristics of Anthroposophy include:
Where do you get the definitions that you have listed?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 21:34:06 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: websites in which "Anthroposophy" and the word "cult" are linked
Christine,
You argue quite passionately that Anthroposophy is not a cult, and offer as
evidence reference to a number of organizations whose definition of the word
"cult" you claim would prove that unfitting to describe Anthroposophy.
Having 10 minutes to spare, I typed the words "Anthroposophy" and "cult"
into Google, and came up with pages and pages of Websites, including the
following:
http://www.update.uu.se/~fbendz/pseudo/anthropos.html
http://www.cults.co.nz/ae.html
http://skepdic.com/comments/steinercom.html
http://www.gkindia.com/therapies/anthroposophicalmedicine.htm
http://www.geocities.com/mibby529/rogues.html
http://www.update.uu.se/~fbendz/pseudo/
http://psychicinvestigator.com/demo/Cults.htm
http://cultpreres.users4.50megs.com/
http://www.whyaretheydead.net/krasel/books/evans/
http://www.csj.org/pubs_co/guestcolumn/newrelmovaagaard.htm
Lisa
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:59:06 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: Re: websites in which "Anthroposophy" and the word "cult" are linked
In a message dated 3/9/2004 9:39:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,
momof2gals mindspring.com writes:
) Subj: websites in which "Anthroposophy" and the word "cult" are linked
) Date: 3/9/2004 9:39:44 PM Eastern Standard Time
) From: momof2gals mindspring.com (Lisa D. Ercolano)
) Reply-to: (A HREF="mailto:waldorf-critics topica.com")
waldorf-critics topica.com(/A)
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com (Waldorf Critics)
)
) Christine,
)
) You argue quite passionately that Anthroposophy is not a cult, and offer as
) evidence reference to a number of organizations whose definition of the
word
) "cult" you claim would prove that unfitting to describe Anthroposophy.
)
) Having 10 minutes to spare, I typed the words "Anthroposophy" and "cult"
) into Google, and came up with pages and pages of Websites, including the
) following:
)
) http://www.update.uu.se/~fbendz/pseudo/anthropos.html
)
) http://www.cults.co.nz/ae.html
)
) http://skepdic.com/comments/steinercom.html
)
) http://www.gkindia.com/therapies/anthroposophicalmedicine.htm
)
) http://www.geocities.com/mibby529/rogues.html
)
) http://www.update.uu.se/~fbendz/pseudo/
)
) http://psychicinvestigator.com/demo/Cults.htm
)
) http://cultpreres.users4.50megs.com/
)
) http://www.whyaretheydead.net/krasel/books/evans/
)
) http://www.csj.org/pubs_co/guestcolumn/newrelmovaagaard.htm
)
) Lisa
)
Hello Lisa,
Thanks for the help with my research. I have just downloaded all of the above
and found some very interesting information. I will have some feedback for
you soon. I have a reply to your earlier comment as well, but I had to break it
off to go to work this morning and haven't had a chance to finish it yet.
I have some questions for you, though. Can you provide me with an example in
which, at any point in your connection with a Waldorf School or Community you
were ever asked to:
1. Join the Anthroposophical Society (other than if you had initiated the
inquiry to do so yourself)
2. Make a financial donation or contribution to the Anthroposophical Society
(directly - not money for school tuition or a solicitation for financial help
for a particular project.)
3. Make any kind of pledge of money, property, allegiance or other item of
value to the Anthroposophical Society or to the "Waldorf Movement" as a whole
(other than paying tuition for school or solicitation for financial help for a
particular project such as a building fund or aid to a school in need.)
4. Recruit family members, friends or strangers for membership in the
Anthroposophical Society worldwide or the Anthropsophical Society of North America
or were you ever:
5. Told directly or indirectly that membership of yourself or any other
member of your family in the Anthroposophical Society was a requirement of your
child's enrollment in a Waldorf School.
6. Told that membership in any other religious, ethnic, political,
philosophical or other social organization would be a condition that would prevent your
child from being enrolled in a Waldorf School.
I would appreciate direct and honest answers to each of these questions. Not
things like "Well, people looked at you funny if...." or "I was made to feel
uncomfortable about....". I would like actual examples of any of these events
taking place as I have outlined above.
I invite all other "Waldorf Critics" to answer these six questions directly
as well. I have read lots of your stories (definitely not all of them, I know.)
and I understand that many of you have "felt" "oppressive attitudes" (my
paraphrase) and that sort of thing. What I am looking for are direct and concrete
examples of the above.
Thank you in advance for your cooperation in this matter.
Christine Natale
March 9, 2004
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 23:12:50 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: Re: the 9th year stuff
In a message dated 3/9/2004 3:58:38 AM Eastern Standard Time,
dan dandugan.com writes:
) Subj: Re: the 9th year stuff
) Date: 3/9/2004 3:58:38 AM Eastern Standard Time
) From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
) Reply-to: (A HREF="mailto:waldorf-critics topica.com")
waldorf-critics topica.com(/A)
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)
) madpark nildram.co.uk wrote:
)
) )Can someone please explain the 9th year stuff they talk about?
)
) [Childs, Gilbert. Steiner Education: in theory and practice.
) Edinburgh: Floris Books, 1991, pp. 92-93]
)
) "The undesirability of appealing directly to the intellect of the
) child before puberty has already been discussed from the
) spiritual-scientific point of view, but the rationale behind the
) reluctance to teach the children to read before the age of eight or
) nine was not specifically dealt with. It may be recalled that, at
) about the age of nine the child develops or acquires a heightened
) sense of selfhood; it feels more of an individuality. It feels less
) sympathetic-in the technical sense-towards its surroundings, it feels
) less at one with them. Conversely, it feels more antipathetic to its
) environment, and this it is which helps to induce the enhanced
) self-consciousness; the child is capable of greater powers of
) objectification and therefore a sharpened capacity for the
) intellectual process of apprehending concepts. It would follow,
) therefore, that it is most appropriate for the child to learn to read
) at the age of eight or nine, and Steiner frequently reiterated this."
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
Teaching for the Two Sided Mind
A Guide to Right Brain/ Left Brain Education
By Linda Verlee Williams
1983 Simon & Schuster, NY
Chapter 7
Multisensory Learning
Sensory Learning in the Early Primary Grades
A child's brain is not just smaller or less experienced than an adult's; it
is different in a number of ways. The brain develops all through childhood.
Auditory perception and discrimination, tactile differentiation, and the ability
to transfer information across sense modalities and to interpret that
information are not complete until a child is at least eight years old. Development of
visual perception continues into adolescence. (1) Therefore, in considering
the role of the senses in learning, we must be concerned not only with how they
can help children learn skills and information, but also with how development
affects a child's ability to perform specific tasks and with the impact of
classroom activities on sensory development and integration.
Just as the brain develops in an orderly manner, thinking progresses in a
predictable sequence with verbal ability appearing relatively late in the
process. A task must be appropriate to a child's level of development if the child is
to succeed at it and grow from the experience. When we force children to
learn to read and to work with verbal materials before they are developmentally
ready, we are like a builder who, eager to see results, fails to put in the
foundation before beginning to work on the house.
(1.) Raymond S. More, Dorothy N. More, et al. School Can Wait (Provo, Utah:
Brigham Young University Press, 1979) p. 153
Posted by Christine
March 9, 2004
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 23:18:58 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: the 9th year stuff
Tell us more about Linda Verlee Williams and why I should consider her an
authority on the brain and learning, Christine. A quick Internet search
tells me only that her book is out of print, albeit available, and that she
also wrote a book about papier mache.
Lisa
) From: Christine Natale (Golden3000997 cs.com)
) Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 23:12:50 EST
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com, anthroposophy_tomorrow yahoogroups.com
) Subject: Re: the 9th year stuff
)
) In a message dated 3/9/2004 3:58:38 AM Eastern Standard Time,
) dan dandugan.com writes:
)
)) Subj: Re: the 9th year stuff
)) Date: 3/9/2004 3:58:38 AM Eastern Standard Time
)) From: dan dandugan.com (Dan Dugan)
)) Reply-to: (A HREF="mailto:waldorf-critics topica.com")
) waldorf-critics topica.com(/A)
)) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
))
)) madpark nildram.co.uk wrote:
))
))) Can someone please explain the 9th year stuff they talk about?
))
)) [Childs, Gilbert. Steiner Education: in theory and practice.
)) Edinburgh: Floris Books, 1991, pp. 92-93]
))
)) "The undesirability of appealing directly to the intellect of the
)) child before puberty has already been discussed from the
)) spiritual-scientific point of view, but the rationale behind the
)) reluctance to teach the children to read before the age of eight or
)) nine was not specifically dealt with. It may be recalled that, at
)) about the age of nine the child develops or acquires a heightened
)) sense of selfhood; it feels more of an individuality. It feels less
)) sympathetic-in the technical sense-towards its surroundings, it feels
)) less at one with them. Conversely, it feels more antipathetic to its
)) environment, and this it is which helps to induce the enhanced
)) self-consciousness; the child is capable of greater powers of
)) objectification and therefore a sharpened capacity for the
)) intellectual process of apprehending concepts. It would follow,
)) therefore, that it is most appropriate for the child to learn to read
)) at the age of eight or nine, and Steiner frequently reiterated this."
))
)) -Dan Dugan
))
)
)
) Teaching for the Two Sided Mind
) A Guide to Right Brain/ Left Brain Education
)
) By Linda Verlee Williams
) 1983 Simon & Schuster, NY
)
)
) Chapter 7
) Multisensory Learning
)
)
) Sensory Learning in the Early Primary Grades
)
) A child's brain is not just smaller or less experienced than an adult's; it
) is different in a number of ways. The brain develops all through childhood.
) Auditory perception and discrimination, tactile differentiation, and the
) ability
) to transfer information across sense modalities and to interpret that
) information are not complete until a child is at least eight years old.
) Development of
) visual perception continues into adolescence. (1) Therefore, in considering
) the role of the senses in learning, we must be concerned not only with how
) they
) can help children learn skills and information, but also with how development
) affects a child's ability to perform specific tasks and with the impact of
) classroom activities on sensory development and integration.
)
) Just as the brain develops in an orderly manner, thinking progresses in a
) predictable sequence with verbal ability appearing relatively late in the
) process. A task must be appropriate to a child's level of development if the
) child is
) to succeed at it and grow from the experience. When we force children to
) learn to read and to work with verbal materials before they are
) developmentally
) ready, we are like a builder who, eager to see results, fails to put in the
) foundation before beginning to work on the house.
)
) (1.) Raymond S. More, Dorothy N. More, et al. School Can Wait (Provo, Utah:
) Brigham Young University Press, 1979) p. 153
)
) Posted by Christine
) March 9, 2004
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New
) threads are always welcome.
)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 00:15:30 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: The Founder of Anthroposophy
Christine, thank you for your moving testimony of faith. If anyone
here doubted that Anthroposophy was a religion, your essay should
erase that doubt. I have a few questions on the details.
)It is pronounced "mi-cha-el" just like you would say "ga-bri-el" and
)"ra-pha-el". The "el" at the end of each name means "God". Michael
)means "countenance of God".
Pronounced by whom? Why, in Waldorf schools, is the common English
name "Michael" pronounced "mi-cha-el"? Why is it necessary to make a
distinction? Is it because that's the way it's pronounced in German?
Why would that matter?
)The Archangel Michael, as we take him to be, is "The Founder of
)Anthroposophy" because he is the supreme champion of the development
)of Human Freedom and the "I" or Individuality of each Human Being.
)He slays the dragon of the falsehood of materialism and protects the
)Eternal Feminine who gives birth to the New Human Being.
When and where do we see this "New Human Being"?
)Rudolf Steiner spoke of a "Michael School" which took place in the
)1800s in which many, many individualities who were about to come
)into physical incarnation were "enrolled". This "school" brought
)souls together who had been pursuing many different paths to the
)Spiritual World and taught them (literally) how the piece of the
)cosmic puzzle through the long ages of time fit together and how
)crucial it is for each Human Being to find his or her own direct way
)to the Spiritual World and to the Christ Being from with in their
)physical life. This was not an "indoctrination" - it was a bringing
)together of people who had sought truth and love throughout the ages
)and united them in knowledge and purpose.
)
)Rudolf Steiner was a great teacher of this "Michael School" - not a
)guru, not a "cult leader", not a person interested in interfering
)with or directing other people's free will. But a true teacher - one
)who made himself available to the Spiritual World and to the Human
)Beings now living in the material world. Not as a "channel" or
)"sleeping prophet" but one who worked to be able to perceive
)Spiritual reality as concretely and objectively as any person can
)perceive the physical world. And he worked to make not only the
)knowledge about this objective reality available to people, but a
)safe, moral and fully concious path to knowledge of this spiritual
)reality so that they would be able to develop the "tools" of
)spiritual perception in a healthy and verifiable way.
The above is a statement of doctrine. It's based solely on revelation
from divine sources.
)All of the work of Rudolf Steiner is directly inspired by the
)Archangel Michael as the "countenance" or "representative" of the
)Christ Being - the Archetype of all Humankind - ALL. Not one word is
)meant to be or expected to be or really, allowed to be taken on
)"faith" or because "he said so." Every word is given in Freedom and
)can ONLY be taken in Freedom or rejected in Freedom.
But if it's "directly inspired" by a supernatural source, who could
doubt it? That's the problem with criticizing Steiner. If he got his
teachings from the spiritual world, only another "researcher" in the
spiritual world would be able to argue whether he got things right or
not. But there are very few who claim to be able to study the
spiritual world as Steiner did. So that leaves Anthroposophists with
only one thing: faith. All the talk about "freedom" may make you feel
good, but it's meaningless in practice. It's a trick Steiner played
on you, a guru trick.
)By the same token, every word and every spiritual impulse behind
)those words is given to Humanity as a Whole - not one person
)excluded, not one person judged for "worthiness" or even for
)capacity to understand. Just as the Sun shines on every person who
)steps out of his or her house, so does the Light of Truth shine for
)all who choose to open their "eyes" - their hearts and minds.
Religions do claim to have "the Light of Truth."
)How each person chooses to do this; why each person chooses to do
)this; what results in each person who chooses to do this is entirely
)their own business. No one judges or has a right to judge.
Sounds good, but in practice, in Anthroposophical institutions
there's a whole lotta judgin' goin' on. Those who can quote Steiner
to justify their positions win.
)Even when ideas or interpretations of ideas get misinterpreted or
)distorted - unintentionally or intentionally - often others do not
)interfere, exactly because of the great respect every person who is
)a student of Rudolf Steiner has for the "I" of the other person and
)the responsibility that each one carries for what lives inside his
)or her true individuality. This can create problems, due to the
)fallability of people, but it stands in opposition to the "dogmatic"
)view of "religious truth" that has carried humanity through up to
)now. We stand at the Threshold of an age in which we cannot and will
)not be led "blindly" by churches, governments or any other social
)institution. Mankind faces the challenge of having to "stand on our
)own two feet." We see in our time mostly tragedy occuring when
)people try to go back to various forms of "group conciousness" in
)their spiritual strivings. There can be a community of the heart
)involved in Anthroposophy, but never one which expects the
)Individual to "surrender" his or her own knowledge, discernment and
)freedom of thought, word or deed.
Nonsense. Anthroposophical communities expect total surrender to
Steiner's revelations. They can't survive otherwise.
)What is it that the Archangel Michael is "trying to achieve" through
)Rudolf Steiner and all who choose freely to take up a work such as
)Waldorf Education? It is always and absolutely that each and every
)individual shall find an environment, a community and a vocation
)that allows as much as possible (given the limits of space, time and
)the wider social fabric of our time) that person to fulfill the
)intentions that he or she came into this earth existence with. That
)each human being, to the best of whatever the circumstances will
)allow have a childhood which allows him or her to develop in as
)healthy a way as possible; that allows for a gradual sequence of
)unfolding of abilities, talents and interests; that strives to work
)for harmonizing potentially harmful tendencies; that seeks the kind
)of balance of Form and Freedom that gives the growing human being
)both encouragement to grow and healthy boundaries; that works to
)nurture in each developing human being a profound respect for life,
)for the earth, for every form of life on the earth, for each other
)and for him and her self;
High ideals that everybody would agree with. But does Waldorf
education actually "allow him or her to develop in as healthy a way
as possible"? How would you know that Steiner's indications from the
spiritual world actually lead to those results?
)that brings to each child the as many of the infinite names and
)faces and manifestations of God as possible, so that he or she may
)discover the "door" in his or her own heart that opens easily to God
)in whatever form or manifestation that person desires and requires.
Indeed, as Eugene Schwartz said, he wants his daughter in Waldorf
because it is a religious education. Wouldn't it be more honest to
stop covering that up?
)Perhaps you and others have encountered "Anthroposophists", "Waldorf
)Schools", "Waldorf Teachers" etc. who fail miserably to live up to
)the statements above.
I'd say that's inevitable, given the state of Waldorf teacher
selection and training. How will the movement reform itself?
Criticism is suppressed, there's no feedback loop, therefore no
correction of wrong directions, no growth.
) Have you ever known a "Christian" to fail to live up to the
)teachings of Christ? I know that I have failed, pretty much every
)day of my life and may continue to fail for several more lifetimes.
)Without the hope of and knowledge of and experience of Forgiveness,
)I know that I could never try again. I believe that there are others
)who would feel the same way. Have we failed you and your children in
)some way? I do not doubt it if you say so. Speaking for myself, I
)feel it deeply and I know it from every side. I have been on the
)receiving end of unkindness and lack of understanding as well - from
)my "fellow" Steiner people and Waldorf people.
)
)But I have also seen and heard and experienced those moments of love
)and understanding and true acceptance such as I have never seen or
)experienced anywhere else. I have had my moments, too when real,
)viable good was accomplished, even by me - moments I can attest to
)and carry with me with pride for my efforts and reverance for the
)guidance that I received in the process.
Waldorf teachers are the devotees of the cult. The enterprise only
goes on when you sacrifice yourselves to the cause. It makes you feel
noble, and special.
)Do we have a long way to go? Absolutely! We are still in the infancy
)of the work.
After 80 years I'd expect a little more confidence.
)There are still a many years and many "miles" to go. The Archangel
)Michael guides us and helps us when we ask for help, but he does not
)do the work for us. He does not expect us to "surrender" our wills.
)He expects us (all human beings) to strengthen our Will and through
)our Free Will to work for the Power of Love and Truth that lives
)within each and every one of us.
Why do you capitalize Will here? What does that mean?
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 00:19:55 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Cult - NOT
DAN DUGAN
) ) Cult-like characteristics of Anthroposophy include:
CHRISTINE NATALE
)Where do you get the definitions that you have listed?
From my experience. Those are my personal justifications for my
opinion that Anthroposophy is cult-like. It was a cult while Steiner
was alive. Now it's evolving, very slowly because it's very
conservative, into a religion, but it still clings to most of its
cult characteristics. The history of Mormonism makes a useful
parallel.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:57:18 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: the 9th year stuff
Christine Natale, you quoted this in response to a question about
"the nine year change."
)Teaching for the Two Sided Mind
)A Guide to Right Brain/ Left Brain Education
)
)By Linda Verlee Williams
)1983 Simon & Schuster, NY
)
)Chapter 7
)Multisensory Learning
)
)Sensory Learning in the Early Primary Grades
)
)A child's brain is not just smaller or less experienced than an
)adult's; it is different in a number of ways. The brain develops all
)through childhood. Auditory perception and discrimination, tactile
)differentiation, and the ability to transfer information across
)sense modalities and to interpret that information are not complete
)until a child is at least eight years old. Development of visual
)perception continues into adolescence. (1) Therefore, in considering
)the role of the senses in learning, we must be concerned not only
)with how they can help children learn skills and information, but
)also with how development affects a child's ability to perform
)specific tasks and with the impact of classroom activities on
)sensory development and integration.
)
)Just as the brain develops in an orderly manner, thinking progresses
)in a predictable sequence with verbal ability appearing relatively
)late in the process. A task must be appropriate to a child's level
)of development if the child is to succeed at it and grow from the
)experience. When we force children to learn to read and to work with
)verbal materials before they are developmentally ready, we are like
)a builder who, eager to see results, fails to put in the foundation
)before beginning to work on the house.
But Williams doesn't say anything about "the nine year change" or
anything like it. In Waldorf it's considered to be a very significant
milestone in development:
"The 'nine-year change' marks a childhood transformation no less
profound than puberty and adolescence. The curriculum for grades 3
and 4 provides the child with a powerful reflection of this
transformation... [Sunbridge College Summer '98 Summer Program
announcement, William Ward "Teaching Grades 3 & 4"]
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 00:33:47 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Cult - NOT
Hi Christine,
I openly admit that I was involved in what I consider a "cult." It took a
few years for the realization to reach the surface. Friends outside of the
cult constantly asked about the meetings I attended regularly. I have no
problem now seeing that entire experience for what it was. To deny the
experience is to deny a few years of my life. The "cult" was anthroposophy
and the outreach was Waldorf. I know many people who have similar feelings
with regards to Waldorf/Anthroposophy - most of whom have no interest in
PLANS. I am speaking of first hand conversations with people * I know.*
For what it's worth, I don't see the word "cult" as a *bad thing.* If it
makes the experience more palatable for you I would offer "cult-like
religious sect." Or perhaps an NRM (new religious movement).
If anthroposophy helps *you* make sense of *your* life - I respect that. I
respectfully ask you, however, to respect my "cult experience" and get on
with helping me share the very real *impulse* of anthroposophy and Waldorf
education with those who need and deserve to understand such concepts. We
seem to agree that such vital information is sadly lacking in Waldorf public
relations.
You have not responded to previous posts and I am patiently waiting.
Please, let's get on with it.
-Walden
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1287
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Cult - NOT
By Golden3000997 cs.com
Linda Verlee Williams - Teaching for the Two Sided Mind
By Golden3000997 cs.com
Teaching for the Two Sided Mind - Reference 1
By Golden3000997 cs.com
Teaching for the Two-Sided Mind - Reference 2
By Golden3000997 cs.com
Teaching for the Two-Sided Mind - Reference 3
By Golden3000997 cs.com
Cult characteristics and anthroposophy (was: grateful graduate)
By diana.winters verizon.net
Re: The Founder of Anthroposophy
By bangus nb.sympatico.ca
Re: Linda Verlee Williams - Teaching for the Two Sided Mind
By momof2gals mindspring.com
RE: Linda Verlee Williams - Teaching for the Two Sided Mind
By feetapparel hotmail.com
Re: The Founder of Anthroposophy
By feetapparel hotmail.com
Re: Cult - NOT
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Kimberton school finances questioned
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Cult - NOT
By Golden3000997 cs.com
Linda Verlee Williams references
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re Cult - NOT
By feetapparel hotmail.com
FAQ's
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: Cult - NOT
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 07:46:21 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: Re: Cult - NOT
In a message dated 3/10/2004 3:32:33 AM Eastern Standard Time,
awaldenpond shaw.ca writes:
) Subj: Re: Cult - NOT
) Date: 3/10/2004 3:32:33 AM Eastern Standard Time
) From: awaldenpond shaw.ca (walden)
) Reply-to: (A HREF="mailto:waldorf-critics topica.com")
waldorf-critics topica.com(/A)
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)
) Hi Christine,
)
) I openly admit that I was involved in what I consider a "cult." It took a
) few years for the realization to reach the surface. Friends outside of the
) cult constantly asked about the meetings I attended regularly. I have no
) problem now seeing that entire experience for what it was. To deny the
) experience is to deny a few years of my life. The "cult" was anthroposophy
) and the outreach was Waldorf. I know many people who have similar feelings
) with regards to Waldorf/Anthroposophy - most of whom have no interest in
) PLANS. I am speaking of first hand conversations with people * I know.*
)
) For what it's worth, I don't see the word "cult" as a *bad thing.* If it
) makes the experience more palatable for you I would offer "cult-like
) religious sect." Or perhaps an NRM (new religious movement).
)
) If anthroposophy helps *you* make sense of *your* life - I respect that. I
) respectfully ask you, however, to respect my "cult experience" and get on
) with helping me share the very real *impulse* of anthroposophy and Waldorf
) education with those who need and deserve to understand such concepts. We
) seem to agree that such vital information is sadly lacking in Waldorf
public
) relations.
)
) You have not responded to previous posts and I am patiently waiting.
) Please, let's get on with it.
)
) -Walden
)
Hello Walden,
No, I cannot "respect your 'cult experience' because you have not established
for me or anyone else through recognized criteria that you were indeed
involved in a "cult experience." The only sentence in your post above which you
offer as an example of a phenomena that supports your assertion that your
involvement with Waldorf Education was involvement with a "cult" is:
Friends outside of the
) cult constantly asked about the meetings I attended regularly
Shall we start a list of groups and organizations, including every office I
have ever worked in which involves their members attending regular meetings?
Please be so kind as to answer these six questions below, yes or no and if
yes, please give me a concrete example of such.
As to answering your former questions, I will when I have time. I am
answering many more on this site and on Anthroposophy Tomorrow and I have previously
answered several of yours. One of your "questions in waiting" is for me to look
at the list of "questions and answers" commonly given to incoming Waldorf
parents and to see if some of the answers should be revised for more disclosure.
I answered you a while ago that I would try to find the time around mid-March
and I asked you to also prepare the same list yourself, so that we can compare
our answers. Have you been working on your list of answers?
I look forward to your answers to the six questions below.
Christine
Six important questions to everyone formerly or currently involved with a
Waldorf School and/ or community. Can you provide me with an example in which, at
any point in your connection with a Waldorf School or community you were ever
asked to:
1. Join the Anthroposophical Society (other than if you had initiated the
inquiry to do so yourself)
2. Make a financial donation or contribution to the Anthroposophical Society
(directly - not money for school tuition or a solicitation for financial help
for a particular project.)
3. Make any kind of pledge of money, property, allegiance or other item of
value to the Anthroposophical Society or to the "Waldorf Movement" as a whole
(other than paying tuition for school or solicitation for financial help for a
particular project such as a building fund or aid to a school in need.)
4. Recruit family members, friends or strangers for membership in the
Anthroposophical Society worldwide or the Anthropsophical Society of North America
or were you ever:
5. Told directly or indirectly that membership of yourself or any other
member of your family in the Anthroposophical Society was a requirement of your
child's enrollment in a Waldorf School.
6. Told that membership in any other religious, ethnic, political,
philosophical or other social organization would be a condition that would prevent your
child from being enrolled in a Waldorf School.
I would appreciate direct and honest answers to each of these questions. Not
things like "Well, people looked at you funny if...." or "I was made to feel
uncomfortable about....". I would like actual examples of any of these events
taking place as I have outlined above.
I invite all other "Waldorf Critics" to answer these six questions directly
as well. I have read lots of your stories (definitely not all of them, I know.)
and I understand that many of you have "felt" "oppressive attitudes" (my
paraphrase) and that sort of thing. What I am looking for are direct and concrete
examples of the above.
Thank you in advance for your cooperation in this matter.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 08:15:28 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: Linda Verlee Williams - Teaching for the Two Sided Mind
In a message dated 3/9/2004 11:25:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,
momof2gals mindspring.com writes:
) Subj: Re: the 9th year stuff
) Date: 3/9/2004 11:25:32 PM Eastern Standard Time
) From: momof2gals mindspring.com (Lisa D. Ercolano)
) Reply-to: (A HREF="mailto:waldorf-critics topica.com")
waldorf-critics topica.com(/A)
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)
) Tell us more about Linda Verlee Williams and why I should consider her an
) authority on the brain and learning, Christine. A quick Internet search
) tells me only that her book is out of print, albeit available, and that she
) also wrote a book about papier mache.
)
) Lisa
1. She did not write a book about papier mache. Her book "Teaching for the
Two-Sided Mind" is listed as a resource material on a website that is about
working with papier mache and papier mache in the classroom.
http://www.papiermache.co.uk/exec/cms-books/author-Linda+Verlee+Williams/
2. While I don't find a biography or curriculum vitae on the "web", I have
found a number articles and websites in which her book "Teaching for the
Two-Sided Mind" is referenced or quoted. And I am not counting book-seller websites
where her book is simply listed for sale. The short blurb on the back of the
book reads as follows:
"Linda Verlee Williams has taught school at every level from preschool to
college. She has trained teachers at the University of California at Berkeley,
for the Ministry of Education in Ethiopia, and in many school districts. She is
an instructor at University Extension, the University of California and is an
associate of The Learning Circle in Berkeley."
Touchstone Books, a division of Simon & Schuster, NY 1986
3. I bought my new copy of the book directly off the shelves at Barnes &
Nobles a couple of months ago. I was specifically looking under "Educational
Psychology."
4. While highly readable, the book is obviously a research project with an
eleven page Bibliography at the end and 12 - 15 footnotes at the end of each
chapter. While it reads like a handbook on Waldorf Education, there are no books
or references cited by Rudolf Steiner or other Waldorf Educators. There is
only one direct reference to Waldorf Education that I have found and it is a
remark by the author, not a direct quote of an outside source:
Pages 106 - 107
"Projects involving expressive drawings, constructions, or collages are
within every teacher's capability. However, they can provide even richer experience
if children also receive instruction in art. One need only compare the
quality of the pictures made by children from Waldorf schools, where art is an
important part of the curriculum, with pictures from public schools to realize how
much children miss by the exclusion of art instruction. The children in
Waldorf schools learn the basic skills of using different materials to produce
highly original and beautiful works of art; they are able to use these skills in
every academic subject. Their diagrams of biological systems and their
illustrations of history or writing assignments have an elegance that is astonishing to
teachers unfamiliar with Waldorf techniques. All children have the capacity
to produce this beauty; when we fail to give them instruction and materials, we
deny them an important area of experience which could produce greater
involvement in all subjects and bolster their self-esteem."
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 08:16:37 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: Teaching for the Two Sided Mind - Reference 1
What do we want our schools to do?
Phi Delta Kappan; 2/1/1994; Oddleifson, Eric
The arts -- when taught during (not after) the school day, when offered to
all students (not just to the talented),and when presented as serious subjects
with high standards -- are producing young people who are indeed "educated,"
Mr. Oddleifson asserts.
WHAT DOES our society want for our children? That they be able to use their
minds well and that they respect and value the opinions of others? We could
agree perhaps on these two educational outcomes.
In his article in this special section, Craig Sautter speaks of different
kinds of curricula in schools. The standard, subject-matter-driven curriculum is
the one we mostly think about. There are a couple of others. The first is the
so-called metacurriculum, whose aim is the development of "higher-order" or
"critical and creative" thinking skills -- in other words, the ability to use
one's mind well.
The other is the "hidden" curriculum, which has to do both with students'
motivation to learn and with their interactions with peers and adults. This
"hidden" curriculum is more closely related to the real concerns of those inside
schools, as we read in Voices from Inside, a report based on interviews with
teachers, students, principals, and parents conducted by the Claremont
(California) University Center and Graduate School.
Could it be that most of our schools are directing their efforts toward
objectives that are less relevant than they once were? Are we focusing on the wrong
things in thinking about education? Do we need to rethink the whole purpose
of education? Should we find out just what Americans want their schools to do?
We need to talk about these issues as a nation.
All of us -- professional educators and members of the general public alike
-- are at once expert and amateur about educational matters. Since we have all
been subjected to schooling, we all have opinions as to where education ought
to be heading. Educators, who should know the most of all, are now being
challenged by findings from other professional fields of inquiry.
If the public is footing the bill for public school education, it has the
right to insist that educational services be delivered in an efficient and
professional manner. In order for this to happen, we clearly need an approach to
school improvement that is not only coherent but workable -- and at a cost that
America is willing to bear.
Let me suggest an idea -- a coherent approach -- for your consideration.
Three years ago I found something that actually worked, and I have been
investigating the reasons why ever since. On the surface it has nothing to do with
"education" as we have come to understand it. Most of us believe that education is
primarily absorbing facts -- building a knowledge base to become "educated."
What I found was that the arts -- when taught during (not after) the school
day, when offered to all students (not just to the talented), and when presented
as serious subjects with high standards -- are producing young people who are
indeed "educated."
Not only do the arts enable students to achieve academically at rates far
beyond what might be expected of them (in subjects such as math and science), but
other marvelous things happen as well. Students who study the arts respect
their peers and treat them well. They become motivated to learn. They enjoy
coming to school, working hard, and succeeding. Through the arts, the whole school
"ecology" changes. High standards become the norm in all subjects.
Relationships between students and teachers improve. Each curriculum -- the regular, the
meta-, and the hidden -- is addressed in arts-integrated schools.
Ron Berger, a sixth-grade teacher in western Massachusetts, has this to say
about his results with students:
The infusion of arts has had a profound
effect on student understanding, investment,
and standards. As a whole, students
not only do well on standardized
testing measures, but importantly and
demonstrably do well in real-life measures
of learning. They are capable and
confident readers, writers, and users
of math; they are strong thinkers and
workers; they treat others well.
Ron Berger's school and other arts-integrated schools around the country
provide models of institutions that have achieved dramatic results by using all
the arts as powerful systems for delivering learning and as effective agents for
change. A coherent vision for schooling in the 21st century is embodied in
these schools.
I find it particularly puzzling that many professional educators -- who
should know what they are doing -- have slighted the arts. Yet research conducted
by the Center for Arts in the Basic Curriculum (CABC) points to the conclusion
that arts-integrated schools are the most promising way to improve American
education.
I ask those who are skeptical to consider first the principles that are
driving education today. They include the idea that students have fixed amounts of
intelligence -- various-sized "buckets," if you will. Educators will say that
they can tell, early on, the size of students' buckets and will put each into
the appropriate track for his or her bucket's size. And educators believe that
their primary job is then to fill each bucket with facts -- with knowledge.
But during the last 20 years, cognitive psychologists studying how people
really do learn have established that children do not absorb knowledge passively
-- they construct it actively. And with that process they are able to make
their buckets larger. This process of constructing knowledge has been described
by David Perkins of Harvard University as building and revising "relational
webs."[1]
As knowledge is constructed, it must be made meaningful. Meaning arises from
the marriage of concepts -- born from the active use of our perceptive
abilities -- with an analytic framework, which gives them structure.
Most educators believe that meaning can be arrived at merely through analysis
and reason. These beliefs find their origin in the works of Plato, who
considered the senses illusory and confined them to a cave. Equipping students with
the structure, or framework, is enough, in these educators' minds. Talking at
students, they feel, should do the job.
Neurologists, physicists, and cognitive psychologists are discovering this to
be a false notion. Meaning, they believe, can be arrived at only by combining
the intellect with the senses. Backing up the idea that the intellect and the
senses must work together as coequal partners to construct meaning is Howard
Gardner's theory of multiple intelligences. Gardner maintains we have at least
seven intelligences, rather than simply the two to which schools cater (the
verbal and the logical/mathematical intelligences). Gardner suggests that
people exhibit intelligence in several other ways. These include the
visual/spatial, musical, kinesthetic, interpersonal, and intrapersonal intelligences.
WHAT DOES all this have to do with the arts? Those who work with Gardner in
Harvard's Project Zero, a group that has been thinking about this subject for
20 years, now say emphatically that the arts represent these other
intelligences -- they are cognitive domains that are as important as the domains we have
traditionally emphasized.
In light of these discoveries, I suggest that the fundamental assumptions on
which the educational enterprise rests are flawed and must be reexamined. I am
not implying that educators aren't doing their job. They are simply doing
what the public has asked them to do. The practical problems of teaching young
people in today's schools are enormous. We all have great respect for those
willing to put up with what can be intolerable working conditions. However, new
understandings about intelligence and about how children learn should be applied
to teaching practices and curriculum, which in turn must be aligned with what
we, as a people, have agreed are the purposes of education.
Art educators are also laboring under intolerable conditions, not the least
of which is the general attitude that what they teach is irrelevant. However,
to a certain extent they are victims of their own attitudes. Many art educators
are really interested only in finding that special youngster who will turn
out to be a talented artist. They do not believe, or even want to believe, that
the arts are cognitive domains, because that would make the arts accessible to
everyone. The arts would then no longer be the special province of the
talented. Art educators want to remain "special." Since most other educators see
little worth in the specialty of art educators, they are doomed to push their
shopping carts laden with materials from class to class, while the "real"
educators take breaks or get together in planning sessions. We have in many art
educators the educational equivalent of the homeless, even when they are lucky
enough to find a job.
While general educators operate with old and misguided assumptions about
mind, knowledge, and intelligence, art educators pursue the talented and leave the
rest struggling. Yet, if we are imbued with multiple intelligences -- if the
arts are indeed cognitive domains -- then we are all artists in one form or
another and to a greater or lesser extent. Maybe we cannot sing or dance well,
but we can write imaginatively, or draw, or act. As I mentioned earlier, these
arts-related intelligences are the source of concepts, and concepts are
essential for the construction of meaning. Since the arts represent organized forms
of perception, we conclude that higher levels of abstract thought -- i.e.,
critical and creative thinking capabilities -- are dependent to a significant
extent on artistic thinking. Thus the metacurriculum of our schools can be
addressed most effectively through the arts.
Edward de Bono believes that these higher-order, perceptive skills are vastly
more important to success in life than are the rational skills of logical
reasoning.
We need to move from our exclusive
concern with the logic of processing,
or reason, to the logic of perception.
Perception is the basis of wisdom. For
twenty-four centuries we have put all
our intellectual effort into the logic of
reason rather than the logic of perception.
Yet in the conduct of human affairs
perception is far more important.
Why have we made this mistake?
We might have believed that perception
did not really matter and could
in the end be controlled by logic and
reason. We did not like the vagueness,
subjectivity and variability of perception
and sought refuge in the solid absolutes
of truth and logic. To some extent
the Greeks created logic to make
sense of perception. We were content
to leave perception to the world of art
(drama, poetry, painting, music, dance)
while reason got on with its own business
in science, mathematics, economics
and government. We have never
understood perception. Perceptual truth
is different from constructed truth.[2]
One physicist, Morton Tavel of Vassar College, believes that the future of
the sciences is dependent on the arts.[3] This notion appears to be yet another
untenable idea, attributing to the arts powers that most people cannot accept.
After all, are not the sciences in the business of collecting scientific
"facts" about how the world operates? Not according to Albert Einstein. He
suggested that the very purpose of the sciences is to understand the senses. He said,
"The aim of science is the conceptual comprehension and connection, as
complete as possible, of the sense experiences in their full diversity."[4]
The aim of the arts is similar. The sciences and the arts are both
investigations into the nature of reality. Artists and scientists share the desire to
investigate and express the ways interlocking pieces of reality fit together.
They simply use different symbol systems and different ways of verifying their
conclusions.
Aesthetic awareness is as necessary to science as it is to the arts.
Aesthetic understanding is reached by connecting the intellect with the senses --
which is precisely Einstein's definition of the aim of science. According to
Morton Tavel, "An apple falling is not simply an event. It is the exhibition of a
unity which, to the discoverer, is a profoundly emotional, exciting and even
beautiful event."[5]
Leonard Shlain, author of Art & Physics, suggests that "mind (intellect) and
universe (senses) may be simply aspects of a binary system and that art and
physics should be seen as two pincers of a claw grasping reality. The arts,
being organized perceptions, are primary sources of material with which to engage
in scientific thinking. Shlain suggests that artists are the first to
conceptualize, through their art, important understandings or generalizations about
the world that scientists only later translate into language. He proposes that
"the radical innovations of art embody the preverbal stages of new concepts
that will eventually change a civilization."[6] Moreover, the arts provide
connections that allow lateral leaps between cognitive domains, which can produce
sudden scientific insight.
Could it be that our schools at present allow children to play with only half
a deck? In denying the arts to our children, do we deny them access to
organized (as opposed to chaotic) forms of reality -- since our perception of
reality is a combination of the intellect and the senses? Is it possible that the
failure of our schools can be attributed to a significant degree to the
dismissal of the arts from the curriculum?
Those of us at CABC think so. We believe that we need to regain a balance
between the rational mind and the perceptive mind. We need to integrate head,
heart, and hand. At the moment, we concentrate on the head -- "the basics" -- and
our efforts aren't working. We suggest a new paradigm for education in
America: arts-integrated education, or education in and through the arts.
At the moment educators are interested in the arts to promote their own
agenda, which is to teach traditional subjects (math, science, history, geography,
and so on). Forward-thinking educators want to "use" the arts to integrate the
"real" curriculum. That sends a signal to art educators -- and to children as
well -- that the arts are important not for their own sakes, but only to
augment the "truly important" school curriculum.
ART EDUCATORS quite understandably cry "foul" and claim the high ground of
"art for art's sake." While on the surface a meaningless slogan, when the phrase
is "unpacked" (to use a good education buzz word), it becomes very
meaningful, indeed. However, art educators have difficulty claiming the high ground
because of their historical focus on the talented and their unwillingness to
consider the arts as cognitive domains. At the moment no one is listening.
The U.S. Department of Education isn't listening. Less than .1% of its $30
billion budget is devoted to arts education. The City of New York isn't
listening. Recently the last music teacher, in a system with an annual budget of $7
billion, was fired. The cry of "art for art's sake" is the sound of one hand
clapping.
And yet it is through production and performance in the arts, using the
different symbol systems that the arts give us (e.g., the musical note, the lines
of a drawing, the movement of the dance), that children pursue "perceptive
reality" -- a reality different from "constructed" reality. To many -- if not most
-- children, this reality is more real than "school-based" reality, which
focuses only on words, reason, logic, and analysis. This is what Linda Williams,
author of Teaching for the Two-Sided Mind, says:
Children come to school as integrated
people with thoughts and feelings,
words and pictures, ideas and fantasies.
They are intensely curious about the
world. They are scientists, artists, musicians,
historians, dancers and runners,
tellers of stories, and mathematicians.
The challenge we face as teachers
is to use the wealth they bring us.
They come with a two-sided mind. We
must encourage them to use it, to develop
both types of thinking so that they
have access to the fullest possible range
of mental abilities.[7]
While we believe that all children should be educated in the arts, taught as
cognitive domains or forms of understanding, there is power in education
through the arts as well. The argument is that, if a student cannot comprehend
traditional academic subjects verbally or linguistically, that student can
understand them visually, musically, or even kinesthetically. So, an integrated
project-based curriculum is called for, with the arts becoming the connecting
threads between academic subjects.
Another benefit of education both in and through the arts is the use of the
arts in exhibiting knowledge. Educators promoting this idea (in particular
Theodore Sizer and the Coalition of Essential Schools) suggest that, to fulfil a
graduation requirement for high school, a student could exhibit knowledge of
emotions (for example) through dance, music, the visual arts, theater, or
poetry. This experience becomes both powerful and interesting for students.
CABC'S work is based on the following three principles developed by Project
Zero:
* The arts are cognitive domains that trigger multiple forms of learning.
They engage students in long-term, open-ended projects that integrate production
of original works with perception of the work of others.
* Effective arts education, using such open-ended projects, is an important
model for all educators. It involves a process of critique of and reflection on
one's own work, and it naturally produces exhibitions, portfolios, and
performances that are more meaningful than other, more traditional forms of
assessment.
* Arts education holds promise for community development by enhancing
cultural and civic pride, fostering intercultural understanding, and giving
professionals in the community opportunities to mentor public school students.
We suggest that an arts-integrated school should have the following
characteristics:
* In recognizing diverse learning styles, students' multiple intelligences,
and the need to integrate head, heart, and hand, an arts-integrated school
embraces education both in and through the arts. Its goal is both to awaken a
"craving to comprehend" in all children and to provide the means through which
students are able to use their minds well.
* It is a school in which teachers, administrators, parents, and students
value the arts for their own sakes -- as forms of cognition -- as well as for
their ability to illuminate academic subjects and to provide ways to exhibit
understanding.
* A meaningful part of the school day is devoted to teaching the arts to all
children as basic disciplines with high standards (achievement-based arts). In
this manner the arts form the core of a school-wide culture of high
standards.
* An arts-integrated school teaches curricular material around themes or
units in which the arts illuminate other subjects. It allows time for art
educators and general classroom teachers to work together to develop and teach an
arts-integrated curriculum.
* An arts-integrated school supports the use of exhibitions that draw on
various art forms to demonstrate knowledge.
CABC views the arts as an entire system of education. When the arts and the
liberal arts are treated as equal partners in the educational enterprise, they
are synergistic -- they result in "high-yield" education. Stephanie Perrin,
headmistress of Walnut Hill School in Natick, Massachusetts, makes the following
observation:
The aims of both systems of education
in an arts-integrated school are to
produce young people who, in addition
to being knowledgeable and well-trained
in the specifics of both the arts
and the liberal arts, are also able to
think critically; to make judgments;
to be self-aware both in terms of their
feelings and their ethical and moral
stance; to be aware of others and able
to work with them; to gather and assess
information; to have a sense of
agency and control in the world; and
to be able to generalize and adapt a
variety of skills and attitudes to meet
whatever challenges life presents. The
aims are simply to be able to keep on
learning.
These higher-order skills and attitudes
can be developed in either of the
systems. They can be taught through
the study of music or the study of biology.
It is at this level of functioning
that the systems can be said to share
an outcome: the creation of the educated
young person.[8]
We call for a national inquiry into the notion of arts-integrated education
-- education in and through the arts. Such an inquiry might prevent a
prediction that was made in The Economist from coming true. In a recent article, this
highly respected British weekly magazine with a broad world view suggests that
the 21st century may turn out to be a disaster. The reason: the failure of
world democracies to realize that the "Age of Reason," with its belief that
through reason alone human beings can understand and master every aspect of their
lives, is coming to an end. In the scenario presented by The Economist, this
failure of understanding leads America to back away from its role of world
leadership, resulting in the disintegration of pluralistic alliances and the rise
of dictatorships.
Viewing world history as if looking back from the year 2992, The Economist
indicates that, in the 1990s, "a new balance was needed between the analytic
part of the human mind and the instinctive part, between rationality and feeling;
only then could man address the world more steadily. Because they did not
tackle this problem in time, the democracies marched straight from the climax of
their 20th Century victory over totalitarianism towards disaster."[9]
Peter Drucker, our country's most respected management guru, argues the same
point. He believes that humankind is in the midst of a transformation in which
the organizing principle of life is evolving from analysis (or rational
thought) to perception. Information-based societies are organized around meaning,
and meaning requires at its heart common perception. Drucker suggests that "the
world's new realities are configurations and as such call for perception as
much as for analysis: the dynamic disequilibrium of the new pluralisms, for
instance; the multi-tiered transnational economy and the transnational ecology;
the new archetype of the |educated person' that is so badly needed."[10]
We believe that if arts-intergrated schooling became a national norm, it
could positively affect management practices and improve our nation's
productivity. Indeed, it has been argued recently that the Japanese insistence on
aesthetics has much to do with that country's economic success.
Henry Mintzberg indicates that "the important policy-level processes required
to manage an organization rely to a considerable extent on the faculties
identified with the brain's right hemisphere."[11] These faculties are not the
verbal, logical/mathematical, and analytical capacities so often sought in
business managers but are the more intuitive, holistic, imaginative, and conceptual
capacities that are developed through training in the arts. Mintzberg observes
that a great deal of a manager's inputs are soft and speculative -- they
include impressions and feelings about other people. These inputs are based on
perceptions. He also suggests that analytical inputs (reports, hard data) seem to
be of relatively little interest to managers.
Charles Hampden-Turner observes that U.S. corporate culture is overwhelmingly
left-brained (rational, analytic) and reflects a general national
disposition.[12] In our culture we consistently stress analysis and the separation and
isolation of elements from one another. We think in parts, rather than wholes.
But the creation of wealth in today's world requires thinking in wholes. Our
era now requires holistic processes and synergistic capabilities. Good managers
synthesize rather than analyze information.
Ellen Harris, the associate provost for the arts at the Massachusetts
Institute of Technology and a CABC board member, recently wrote, "The arts have
helped prepare MIT students in business. An alumnus at a large New York accounting
firm recently stated at an MIT alumni meeting that his firm interviews about
forty MIT students every year. Of the ten they recently hired, four presented
minors in the arts. The latter fact so significantly set these candidates apart
from the others in terms of creative thinking, flexibility and presentation
that the firm is now using the arts minor as a screening criterion."[13]
A useful part of the national dialogue on the purpose of schools generally
and on the notion and effectiveness of arts-integrated schools would be a
consideration of how schools can "retool" themselves to meet the requirements of the
new paradigm. Such a transformation will necessitate simultaneous attention
to curricular, instructional, and organizational issues within each district.
CABC's approach is based on the premise that the transformation of America's
schools must come from within. Every school has a distinct culture, and
organizational change within schools begins with the acknowledgment that a school's
culture has the power to promote or inhibit intellectual and organizational
growth. CABC's interest is in how to foster, nurture, and design cultures that
make for healthy workplaces for adults. Such a school culture would encourage
collegiality among teachers, the use of the knowledge base of education, the
processes of critical and creative thinking, mutual respect between teachers and
students, and the involvement of teachers in decision making.
Our national dialogue must include a deep examination not only of the notion
of arts-integrated education but also -- if we decide as a people that we want
it -- of how we bring it about. The course of events and the fate of our
country in the 21st century may well depend on it. [1.] David N. Perkins, "Art as
Understanding," Journal of Aesthetic Education, Spring 1988, p. 114. [2.]
Edward de Bono, I Am Right -- You Are Wrong: From Rock Logic to Water Logic (New
York: Viking/Penguin, 1991), p. 42. [3.] Morton Tavel, private conversation
with author, 1993. [4.] Quoted in Dwight L. Allison, The Rise of Consciousness
(Boynton Beach, Fla.: Dwight L. Allison, 1992), p. 25. Italics added. [5.]
Tavel, private conversation. [6.] Leonard Shlain, Art & Physics: Parallel Visions
in Space, Time, and Light (New York: William Morrow, 1991), p. 17. [7.] Linda
Verlee Williams, Teaching for the Two-Sided Mind A Guide to Right Brain/Left
Brain Education (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1983), p. 189-90. [8.] Stephanie
Perrin, "The Aims of Education at Walnut Hill: The Art of Learning," working
paper for the Klingenstein Fellowship, January 1991. [9.] "Looking Back from 2992
-- A World History, Chapter 13: The Disastrous 21st Century," The Economist,
26 December 1992-8 January 1993, p. 19. [10.] Peter F. Drucker, The New
Realities (New York: Harper & Row, 1989), p. 264. [11.] Henry Mintzberg, Mintzberg
on Management: Inside Our Strange World of Organizations (New York: Free Press,
1989), p. 53. [12.] Charles Hampden-Turner, Creating Corporate Culture: From
Discord to Harmony (Reading, Mass.: Addison-Wesley, 1990). [13.] Ellen T.
Hanis, "Why Study the Arts -- Along with Math and Science?," Aspen Institute
Quarterly, Winter 1992, p. 100.
COPYRIGHT 1994 Phi Delta Kappa, Inc.
HighBeam™ Research, LLC. (c) Copyright 2004. All rights reserved.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 08:22:16 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: Teaching for the Two-Sided Mind - Reference 2
Using multimedia resources in teaching the Bible.
Interpretation; 10/1/2002; Dalton, Russell W.
We live and work in a world saturated with digital media and populated with
people who learn in a variety of ways. The multisensory and non-linear
capabilities of multimedia can help educators achieve a variety of goals in teaching
the Bible in seminary classrooms and in the church.
Multimedia, in its most basic sense, refers to the simultaneous presentation
of sights and sounds through a variety of media. In recent years, the term has
most commonly been used to refer to digital media (e.g., CD-ROMs, DVD-ROMs,
Internet websites, and computer-based programs like PowerPoint) that combine
video, audio, and graphics into one presentation program. Rather than trying to
review the wide variety of multimedia resources available, this essay will
focus on two quite different projects that may serve as case studies to raise
several philosophical and methodological issues related to the use of multimedia
in teaching the Bible.
Each project draws on the multisensory and non-linear strengths of multimedia
to accomplish its educational objects, but one project (developed at United
Theological Seminary in Dayton, Ohio) was designed for classroom use in
theological education, while the other (the American Bible Society's New Media Bible)
was intended primarily for the religious education of teenagers. Whereas the
UTS project is concerned with the development of the learner's interpretive
skills, the ABS project attempts to "translate" particular biblical texts into
an audiovisual language. Each project pays attention to both cognitive and
affective dimensions of instruction. The UTS project, however, emphasizes the use
of multimedia resources to facilitate cognitive learning, while the ABS
project provides resources that are especially suitable for affective learning.
DIVERSE WAYS OF KNOWING
Students come to seminary from a wide variety of backgrounds, with differing
levels of ability to absorb and process the information required for critical
theological reflection on biblical texts. They also come well-supplied with
various preconceived notions about the Bible. One of the teacher's essential
tasks is to help students think critically about biblical texts. (1) Of course,
the mere communication of information neither guarantees understanding nor
motivates the learner to act upon information received. So the teacher not only
communicates information but also creates the right amount of disequilibrium in
students' minds to help them "get some distance from their own values and
beliefs." (2) To accomplish these tasks, a traditional seminary education relies
heavily on the verbal and analytical presentation and processing of information
through reading, lecture, and discussion. But experience in the classroom
leads many to believe that these traditional ways of teaching leave a significant
number of students unaware (Or doubting the importance) of the contributions
that historical-cultural background material can make to their understanding
of the biblical texts.
Broadcasting and receiving on more than one channel. For years, educational
psychologists have told us that there are enormous differences in how people
acquire, process, and represent knowledge. Howard Gardner talks about "multiple
intelligences" and argues that "[w]e are not all the same; we do not all have
the same kinds of minds...; and education works most effectively if these
differences are taken into account rather than ignored or denied." (3) In Teaching
for the Two-Sided Mind, Linda Verlee Williams says, "The learner is like a
television set which can receive information on several channels. Usually, one
channel comes in more clearly and more strongly than the others." (4)
Williams's metaphor allows us to articulate what has become an increasingly
apparent problem in the world of theological education: many students heading
into ministry do not get good "reception" on our most commonly used "channels"
of instruction. Educational specialists have various ways of describing these
teaching and learning "channels." The terms "verbal thinking" and "visual
thinking" are sometimes used to represent clusters of abilities that roughly
correspond to distinct ways the different parts of the human brain receive,
process, or manipulate information. (5)
"Verbal thinking" is sometimes used as a kind of shorthand for the
analytical, linear-sequential (left-brain) reception and processing of information,
whereas "visual thinking" is used to describe the pattern-seeking,
pictorial-spatial (right-brain) reception and processing of information. But effective
thinking requires the use of both "sides" of the human mind! "Dual coding"--the
presentation of information through both verbal and pictorial channels--can
increase the average learner's comprehension and retention of information. (6)
Regardless of the terms used to describe these teaching and learning
channels, "the verbal, analytical process usually identified with thinking is only one
way of processing information." (7) While it may have been sadly neglected in
our graduate schools, "[v]isual thinking... is [also] a basic way of
obtaining, processing, and representing information." (8) Theological education
(especially in the Protestant Christian tradition) has largely neglected the
pictorial-spatial capacities of the brain. While more than one branch of the
Judeo-Christian tradition has exhibited iconoclastic inclinations, (9) the emphasis on
the primacy of the Word in Protestant circles has magnified this tendency to
look with suspicion on the making of images. (10) Nevertheless, visual
thinking continues to be the clearest learning "channel" for many people in
Protestant churches and seminaries. As William Dyrness says, "We live in a generation
raised on a steady diet of the visual." (11) Students continue to come to
seminary with di verse optimal learning styles, many of which do not respond well
to our verbal-analytical modes of instruction.
Although reading might seem, on the surface, to be a "visual" activity,
research indicates that making sense of a string of syllables, words, sentences,
and paragraphs is a "left-brain" (linear-sequential-analytical) function.
Encoding or decoding anything more than a word or two requires serial processing
(one item at a time, in the correct order). Other types of information such as
pictures, images, maps, charts, diagrams, and melodies are primarily processed
in the part of the brain that specializes in perceiving patterns and
integrating component parts into a recognizable whole. Such visual-spatial information
can be and often is presented through chalk-board drawings, pictures,
illustrations, and slides. Good teachers know that it is helpful (when possible) to
represent verbal abstractions graphically. However, there is a teaching-learning
advantage to be gained by the simultaneous presentation and processing of
information both verbally and visually. (12)
Audio-visual or multimedia resources would seem the ideal way to present
verbal and visual information together in a coordinated fashion. Yet few of the
available resources are appropriate for teaching students to think critically
and reflectively about biblical texts. Most of the materials currently available
in video tape format present learners with interpretations of the content of
the biblical texts. They seldom deal with the kinds of information that can
help students become responsible interpreters in their own right. Those
audiovisuals that do encourage the learner to think critically or reflectively about
the biblical texts consist primarily of talking heads, presenting
verbal-sequential and analytical information in what is essentially a lecture format on
film. The images presented (of the speaker speaking) do not complement,
supplement, or enhance the listener's comprehension or retention of what is said.
Most digital (computer-based) programs produced for use in theological
education are text-based, relying heavily on the use of reading material displayed
on a computer screen. While these programs enable students to navigate from
place to place within the texts and to consider a variety of subjects or
sub-categories in a less linear fashion than if the material were presented in a book,
they still address primarily persons who learn best by reading. Moving around
in the texts may help satisfy some learners' desire to handle or manipulate
things, but for the most part these computer-based programs do not
simultaneously engage both the eyes and the ears in the learning process.
**************
(edited for length)
*******************
CONCLUSION
Although multimedia is often seen as a resource for individual use or for
distance education, the projects described above illustrate multimedia's value
for face-to-face teaching of the Bible. Multimedia's audio-visual capabilities
engage more than the rational, analytical mind. The simultaneous sights and
sounds of multimedia seem particularly effective at breaking through
preconceptions, creating disequilibrium, and making learners receptive to new
possibilities.
(1.) "Critical thinking" means the ability to entertain other viewpoints or
perspectives and to consider the possibilities of multivalence. See C. Meyers,
Teaching Students to Think Critically (San Francisco: Jossey-Bass, 1986).
(2.) Ibid., 27.
(3.) H. Gardner, Intelligence Reframed: Multiple Intelligences for the 21st
Century (New York: Basic Books, 1999) 91.
(4.) L. V. Williams, Teaching for the Two-Sided Mind: A Guide to Right Brain
/ Left Brain Education (New York: Simon & Schuster, Touchstone edition, 1986)
145.
(5.) Use of the terms "right brain" and "left brain" is a "helpful fiction"
that heuristically describes differing learning styles. The terms may not
accurately reflect the actual physiology of the brain.
(6.) See, e.g., M. M. Clark and A. Paivio, "Dual Coding Theory and
Education," Educational Psychology Review 3 (1991) 149-210.
(7.) Williams, Teaching for the Two-Sided Mind, 29.
(8.) Ibid., 85.
(9.) For an excellent overview of the relationship of faith and the visual
arts in Christian history see W. A. Dyrness, Visual Faith: Art, Theology, and
Worship in Dialogue (Grand Rapids: Baker Academic, 2001).
(10.) E.g., "The mind that takes up with images is a mind that has not yet
learned to love and attend to God's Word" (J. Packer, Knowing God (Downers
Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity, 1993] 49).
(11.) Dyrness, Visual Faith, 87.
KATHLEEN A. FARMER
United Theological Seminary (Dayton)
Using Multimedia Resources in Teaching the Bible
Farmer earned her Ph.D. in Old Testament at Southern Methodist University She
is the author of The Book of Ruth: Introduction, Commentary and Reflections
in The New Interpreter's Bible (Abingdon). She is a United Methodist laywoman.
RUSSELL W. DALTON
United Theological Seminary (Dayton)
(Co-author with Kathleen A. Farmer)
Dalton received his Ed.D. from Union-PSCE. He is the author of Video, Kids
and Christian Education (Augsburg). He is an ordained minister in the Amen can
Baptist Churches, USA.
COPYRIGHT 2002 John Carroll University
HighBeam™ Research, LLC. (c) Copyright 2004. All rights reserved.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 08:23:14 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: Teaching for the Two-Sided Mind - Reference 3
Contemporary Women's Issues Database; 6/1/1991; Clarke, Jan|Harvey, Elaine
Contemporary Women's Issues Database
06-01-1991
A Girls in Science Bibliography
Women's Education-Education des femmes, 06-01-1991
Editor's Note: A short annotated bibliography of texts relevant to the
education of girls in science fills this issue's Reviews section. Publisher's name
and address are given where available, as well as approximate prices.
Alic, Margaret. Hypatia's Heritage: A History of Women in Science from
Antiquity to the Late Nineteenth Century. London: The Women's Press, (1986) $13.25.
One of the best historical overviews of women mathematicians. Of particular
interest is chapter 11: The Nineteenth-Century Mathematicians: The Mathematical
Contributions of Sophie Germain; Ada Lovelace and the Beginnings of Computer
Science; The Mathematical Mind: The story of Sophia Kovalevsky.
Ashton-Warner, Sylvia. Teacher. New York: Simon & Schuster, Inc. (1986)
$12.50.
"A vivid journal of incidents, personalities, sudden moments of insight, and
a philosophy of education which emerges through reflection upon experiences.
It should have great value not only for those interested in the problems of
education in old cultures and new nations, but also for those concerned with the
future of civilization..."
Bleier, Ruth. Science and Gender: A Critique of Biology and Its Theories on
Women. The Athene Series, New York: Pergamon Press (1984) $19.95.
The Athene Series is an international collection of feminist books that
focuses on the construction of knowledge and the exclusion of women from the
process. "This book is concerned with the role of science in the creation of an
elaborate mythology of Women's biological inferiority as an explanation for their
subordinate position in the cultures of Western civilizations."
Burns, Marilyn. The I Hate Mathematics! Book. Toronto: Little, Brown and
Company (1975).
"This book is for nonbelievers of all ages... . This book says that
mathematics is nothing more (nor less) than a way of looking at the world and is not to
be confused with arithmetic."
Cajori, Florian. A History of Mathematical Notations: Volume 1: Notations in
Elementary Mathematics. La Salle, Illinois: The Open Court Publishing Company,
(1928, reprinted 1974) $7.15.
This classic on mathematical notation provides interesting historical nuggets
for the classroom teacher. Topics are Numeral Symbols and Combinations of
Symbols; Symbols in Arithmetic and Algebra: groups of symbols used by individual
writers, topical survey of the use of notations; Symbols in Geometry: ordinary
elementary geometry, past struggles between symbolists and rhetoricians in
elementary geometry.
Cheek, Helen Neely et al., ed. Handbook for Conducting Equity Activities in
Mathematics Education. National Council of Teachers of Mathematics, 1906
Association Drive, Reston, Virginia 22091, U.S.A. (1984).
Ching, Hilda. Girls and Science: Making the Connection. B.C. Teacher Status
of Women Journal, February 1987.
Connelly, F. Michael, Robert K. Crockner, and Heidi Kass. Science Education
in Canada Volume 2: Achievement and its Correlates. Toronto: OISE Press, 1989.
This study is a result of the recommendations in Who Turns the Wheel from the
Science Council of Canada (see below).
Culley, Margo & Catherine Portuges, ed. Gendered Subjects: the dynamics of
feminist teaching. Boston: Routledge & Kegan Paul, (1985) $17.95.
"...a rich sample of theoretical and practical reflections on classroom
experience by teachers of Women's Studies ... raising provocative questions which
apply broadly to many areas of progressive teaching."
Gilligan, Carol. In a Different Voice: Psychological Theory and Women's
Development. Cambridge, Mass: Harvard University Press. (1982).
"My goal is to expand the understanding of human development by using the
group left out in the construction of theory to call attention to what is missing
in its account. Seen in this light, the discrepant data on women's experience
provide a basis upon which to generate new theory, potentially yielding a
more encompassing view of the lives of both of the sexes."
Gilligan, Carol, Nona P. Lyons, & Trudy J. Hanmer, eds. Making Connections:
The Relational Worlds of Adolescent Girls at Emma Willard School. Cambridge:
Harvard University Press, 1990.
This is an excellent study on the relational learning styles of girls.
Jacobs, Judith E., ed. Perspectives on Women and Mathematics. Eric
Clearinghouse for Science, Mathematics and Environmental Education, College of
Education, Ohio State University, 1200 Chambers Road, Third Floor, Columbus, Ohio
43212, (1978) $1.75.
Papers presented in the Women and Mathematics strand of the 1978 conference
of the National Council of Teachers of Mathematics held in California form the
core of this book.
Kaseberg, Alice et al. Use EQUALS to Promote the Participation of Women in
Mathematics. Math/Science Network, Lawrence Hall of Science, University of
California, Berkeley, California 94720. (1980) $9.00.
The EQUALS program is part of the Math/Science Network's elementary and
secondary focus. This book contains resources for classroom projects, teaching
strategies, problem solving activities, career information, resource materials,
model workshops and bibliographies.
Keller, Evelyn Fox. Reflections on Gender and Science. New Haven: Yale
University Press, (1985).
"This ground-breaking work explores the possibilities of a gender-free
science and the conditions that could make such a possibility a reality."
Perl, Teri. Math Equals: Biographies of Women Mathematicians + Related
Activities. Don Mills, Ontario: Addison-Wesley Publishing Company, (1978). $9.45.
This book is a must for teachers and students. The biographies are
interesting, and the related activities imaginative.
Resnikoff, H.L. and R.O. Wells, Jr. Mathematics in Civilization. New York;
Dover Publications, Inc. (1973) $14.95.
This is a well-written book dealing with Mathematics in Antiquity, the
Adolescence of Computation, the Rise of Geometrical Analysis, and Twentieth-Century
Mathematics. It contains some excellent ideas for the secondary teacher. It is
a traditional work without a feminist perspective.
Robertson, Heather-Jane. The Idea Book: A Resource for Improving the
Participation and Success of Female Students in Math, Science and Technology Canadian
Teacher's Federation, 110 Argyle Avenue, Ottawa, Ontario, K2P 1B4.
The Idea Book is meant to "serve as a catalyst for information exchange among
teachers and enrich the quality and quantity of scientific education for
female students."
Rosser, Sue Vilhauer. Female Friendly Science: Applying Women's Studies
Method and Theories to Attract Students. New York: Pergamon Press, 1990.
Russell, Diane E.H. ed. Exposing Nuclear Phallacies. The Athene Series, New
York: Pergamon Press, (1989) $20.75.
"Exposing Nuclear Phallacies is a powerful international collection of
articles which tackles a subject of the utmost urgency and importance to us all,
taking as its theme the significance of socialized gender differences in the
origin and perpetuation of the nuclear threat."
Science Council of Canada. Who Turns the Wheel? Ottawa, Ontario, 1982.
Proceedings of a workshop on the science education of women in Canada.
Available free of charge from the Council, 100 Metcalfe Street, Ottawa, Ontario, K1P
5M1.
SCWIST. Imagine the Possibilities: A Workshop Program for 9-12 year old girls.
Step-by-step instruction on how to deliver a Girls in Science program,
including teaching units and a teacher's guide. Available for $15.00 from SCWIST,
Box 2184, Vancouver, B.C., V6B 3V7.
Shaw, Evelyn & Joan Darling. Female Strategies. New York: Simon & Schuster,
Inc., (1985) $10.95.
"...two biologists explore the astonishingly diverse courtship, mating, and
nurturing behaviour within many species of the animal kingdom to show that
there are as many ways to be "female" as there are animals."
Spender, Dale. Invisible Women: The Schooling Scandal. London: Writers and
Readers Publishing Cooperative Society Ltd. (1982) $8.95.
This book is a must for teachers. Read about The Old, Old Problem; The
Knowledge of Males; In the Classroom; The World According to Men; Women's View.
Spender, Dale, ed. Men's Studies Modified: The Impact of Feminism on the
Academic Disciplines. The Athene Series, New York: Pergamon Press, (1981). $23.50.
"Fundamental to feminism is the premise that women have been `left out' of
codified knowledge, so that the world has been explained in terms of men but not
women. Essays on the following academics disciplines explore not only how
this happened but why: language, literary criticism, philosophy, history,
sociology, political science, anthropology, psychology, economics, media studies,
education, law, medicine, biology, and the scientific ethic.
Thompson, Jane. Learning Liberation: Women's Response To Men's Education.
London & Canberra: Croom Helm, (1983) $19.50.
Thompson looks at the education system as "an important regulator of social
and economic class relations and a powerful ideological instrument in the
battle for the hearts and minds of dutiful workers, who need to be conformed to the
rules of order required by class domination if that oppression is to be
continued." A chapter is devoted to the schooling of girls.
Walkerdine, Valerie, and The Girls and Mathematics Unit. Counting Girls Out.
London: Virago Press, 1989.
An excellent study on girls and math education in Britain.
Weiler, Kathleen. Women Teaching for Change: gender. class & power.
Massachusetts: Bergin & Garvey Publishers, Inc. (1988) $18.15.
"Challenging accepted critical educational and feminist theories, Weiler
reveals the day-to-day struggles and achievements of feminist teachers who invite
their students to become more conscious of the political and social forces
that are shaping their lives."
Whyte, Judith. Girls into science and technology: The story of a project.
London: Routledge and Kegan Paul, 1986.
Williams, Linda Verlee. Teaching for the Two-sided Mind: a guide to right
brain/left brain education. New York: Simon & Schuster, Inc. (1983) $13.98.
"Students need right-brain strength to achieve balanced thinking skills and
to activate a full range of cognitive and creative abilities."
Women of Power: A Magazine of Feminism, Spirituality, and Politics. Issue
Eleven, Fall, 1988.
"This issue explores the theme, Science and Technology. We are proud to
investigate with you ... some of the women's issues, and women visionaries, and
activists significant to the theme."
"Women's Development and Education". Journal of Education 167, no. 3 (1985),
Boston University, 605 Commonwealth Avenue, Boston, Mass. 02215.
Of particular interest in this women's issue is Dorothy Buerk's articles,
"The Voices of Women Making Meaning in Mathematics."
Copyright 1991 Canadian Congress for Learning Opportunities for Women
HighBeam™ Research, LLC. (c) Copyright 2004. All rights reserved.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 08:26:34 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: Cult characteristics and anthroposophy (was: grateful graduate)
Here's another cult checklist, from:
http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm
The group is focused on a living leader to whom members seem to display
excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment.
The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.
The group is preoccupied with making money.
Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
Mind-numbing techniques (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues,
denunciation sessions, debilitating work routines) are used to suppress
doubts about the group and its leader(s).
The leadership dictates sometimes in great detail how members should think,
act, and feel (for example: members must get permission from leaders to
date, change jobs, get married; leaders may prescribe what types of clothes
to wear, where to live, how to discipline children, and so forth).
The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its
leader(s), and members (for example: the leader is considered the Messiah or
an avatar; the group and/or the leader has a special mission to save
humanity).
The group has a polarized us- versus-them mentality, which causes conflict
with the wider society.
The group's leader is not accountable to any authorities (as are, for
example, military commanders and ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of
mainstream denominations).
The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify means
that members would have considered unethical before joining the group (for
example: collecting money for bogus charities).
The leadership induces guilt feelings in members in order to control them.
Members' subservience to the group causes them to cut ties with family and
friends, and to give up personal goals and activities that were of interest
before joining the group.
Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group.
Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other
group members
Diana says:
Anthroposophy would rate low on the first few items, and moderately on
others. There is always a continuum. For instance, I doubt they will often
encourage you to live or socialize "only" with other anthroposophists, and
yet the encouragement to spend your time with those doing things "correctly"
per anthroposophy is certainly present to varying degrees. Bringing in
families with young children is obviously a highly successful way to do
this, since young families need a lot of support and are often very
susceptible to a lot of intrusive advice about diet, lifestyle ("rhythm")
etc. Obviously they do not have a living leader (though they are certainly
zealously committed to the dead one). They are not preoccupied with making
money. The extent to which they are preoccupied with bringing in new members
could be debated (not to anthroposophy specifically, but certainly to
anthroposophical efforts), and as for whether they discourage questioning,
doubt, dissent, obviously the experience of many of the critics here is that
they often do. The "us versus them" mentality is unmistakable.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:02:57 -0400
From: "Bruce Angus" (bangus nb.sympatico.ca)
Subject: Re: The Founder of Anthroposophy
Hello - Christine's "The Founder of Anthroposophy" post is the most precise description I've ever read regarding certain aspects of spiritual scientific understanding. Thanks, Christine. Articulation is a skill, and it's a thoughtful, conscious social exercise.
Quoting from the post, Steiner was ".a true teacher - one who made himself available to the Spiritual World and to the Human Beings now living in the material world." The post goes on to emphasize how and why each person may or may not choose to believe or surrender. As fair as I try to be in all things, I do interpret the spiritual realities described here as applying to and influencing not just the inner lives of anthroposophists, but the lives all human beings and the beings belonging to other, cosmic realms.
I'm not someone who argues right from wrong when it comes to our personal religious and/or spiritual truths. How and to what degree our personal truths affect the lives of others, however, is often a matter of important, even critical debate.
I'd like to list a few personal truths I've come to over the years. Regardless of what I believe, they're simply my personal beliefs. And I impose those beliefs on others the moment I believe them to be anything other than my personal beliefs. Furthermore, my personal beliefs affect and limit my ability to appreciate the beliefs of others - and this is where I'm at in my life right now. It's a kind of "community of shared beliefs" phase of understanding.
Christine's post describes Steiner and his spiritual scientific methods in this manner: "Not as a "channel" or "sleeping prophet". but a safe, moral and fully conscious path to knowledge." As much as I sincerely appreciated reading most of what Christine wrote, this particular contribution brought back some pretty awful memories - reminders of the soul beatings I subjected myself to during my years of involvement in anthroposophical movement.
Denouncing alternative methods of spiritual research is insensitive, judgmental and crude. Indirectly suggesting that people are bringing harm to themselves, to others and to the evolution of the spiritual hierarchies (as the anthroposophical belief goes) through "unsafe" and "immoral" spiritual practices, is exceedingly cruel - sadistic really - and extraordinarily destructive. It's the type of violent, dysfunctional conceptualizing that bought me four years of stress depression.
Anyone who thinks I'm being excessively critical, might want to ponder the destructive effects that similar institutionalized conceptualizing has had on the human soul life throughout the centuries: "Thou shall burn in Hell!" for example.
I have no idea if that part of Christine's post was intended as an assault upon occultists, eastern mystical streams and the New Age movement - a common activity in anthroposophical circles. My sense is that Christine is a caring individual, and I'll give her the benefit of the doubt and assume her intention was simply to educate and inform.
Much of what passes for enlightenment and truth - in any and every religious and spiritual philosophy - is hate consciousness, pure and simple. It's also fear consciousness. The idea that aspects of Anthroposophy are born out of fear, is something no anthroposophist I ever worked with ever cared to admit or even consider. And that shows me just how deep the dysfunctional believing lives. And I speak from experience when I say that - for what that's worth.
Bruce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:34:04 +0000 (GMT+00:00)
From: momof2gals mindspring.com
Subject: Re: Linda Verlee Williams - Teaching for the Two Sided Mind
Thank you, Christine. I guess what I would have to say is that I disagree about the "quality" of the artwork at Waldorf schools being in any way superior to that at other schools. Waldorf art, especially in elementary school level classes, is startlingly and (to me, appallingly) cookie cutter. I did not realize how much so until we moved my daughter to a mainstream public school and were delighted and surprised by the amazingly diverse images created by children who were allowed to express their creativity and imagination freely. Waldorf art is in large part a spiritual exercise, like most everything at Waldorf. I know some people find those largely amorphous, blurry-edged wet-on-wet paintings attractive. Sadly, any appeal they had when we first arrived at Waldorf has long disappeared. I know I am not the only former Waldorf mom whose stomach actually turns when I see those paintings.
Lisa
-----Original Message-----
From: Christine Natale (Golden3000997 cs.com)
Sent: Mar 10, 2004 1:15 PM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com, anthroposophy_tomorrow yahoogroups.com
Subject: Linda Verlee Williams - Teaching for the Two Sided Mind
In a message dated 3/9/2004 11:25:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,
momof2gals mindspring.com writes:
) Subj: Re: the 9th year stuff
) Date: 3/9/2004 11:25:32 PM Eastern Standard Time
) From: momof2gals mindspring.com (Lisa D. Ercolano)
) Reply-to: (A HREF="mailto:waldorf-critics topica.com")
waldorf-critics topica.com(/A)
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)
) Tell us more about Linda Verlee Williams and why I should consider her an
) authority on the brain and learning, Christine. A quick Internet search
) tells me only that her book is out of print, albeit available, and that she
) also wrote a book about papier mache.
)
) Lisa
1. She did not write a book about papier mache. Her book "Teaching for the
Two-Sided Mind" is listed as a resource material on a website that is about
working with papier mache and papier mache in the classroom.
http://www.papiermache.co.uk/exec/cms-books/author-Linda+Verlee+Williams/
2. While I don't find a biography or curriculum vitae on the "web", I have
found a number articles and websites in which her book "Teaching for the
Two-Sided Mind" is referenced or quoted. And I am not counting book-seller websites
where her book is simply listed for sale. The short blurb on the back of the
book reads as follows:
"Linda Verlee Williams has taught school at every level from preschool to
college. She has trained teachers at the University of California at Berkeley,
for the Ministry of Education in Ethiopia, and in many school districts. She is
an instructor at University Extension, the University of California and is an
associate of The Learning Circle in Berkeley."
Touchstone Books, a division of Simon & Schuster, NY 1986
3. I bought my new copy of the book directly off the shelves at Barnes &
Nobles a couple of months ago. I was specifically looking under "Educational
Psychology."
4. While highly readable, the book is obviously a research project with an
eleven page Bibliography at the end and 12 - 15 footnotes at the end of each
chapter. While it reads like a handbook on Waldorf Education, there are no books
or references cited by Rudolf Steiner or other Waldorf Educators. There is
only one direct reference to Waldorf Education that I have found and it is a
remark by the author, not a direct quote of an outside source:
Pages 106 - 107
"Projects involving expressive drawings, constructions, or collages are
within every teacher's capability. However, they can provide even richer experience
if children also receive instruction in art. One need only compare the
quality of the pictures made by children from Waldorf schools, where art is an
important part of the curriculum, with pictures from public schools to realize how
much children miss by the exclusion of art instruction. The children in
Waldorf schools learn the basic skills of using different materials to produce
highly original and beautiful works of art; they are able to use these skills in
every academic subject. Their diagrams of biological systems and their
illustrations of history or writing assignments have an elegance that is astonishing to
teachers unfamiliar with Waldorf techniques. All children have the capacity
to produce this beauty; when we fail to give them instruction and materials, we
deny them an important area of experience which could produce greater
involvement in all subjects and bolster their self-esteem."
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:22:33 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Linda Verlee Williams - Teaching for the Two Sided Mind
G'day Christine,
you posted a lot of stuff about left/right brain and educational theory. I
fail to see the connection between most of this and Waldorf. In so far as
the left/right brain stuff goes, I would like to remind you that there is
considerable disagreement about the way the research on brain structure and
function has been interpreted. I remind you of these two references which I
posted in February which put this work in a very different light.
http://williamcalvin.com/bk2/bk2ch10.htm
and
http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/HELHEM.html
I get the impression from what you are posting here that your scholarship in
this area is selective. Perhaps you may be looking for publications which
support what you already think is right as opposed to looking at a broad
range of what is being published.
See you, Peter
_________________________________________________________________
You could be a genius! Find out by taking the IQ Test 2003. $5.50 (incl
GST). Click here: http://sites.ninemsn.com.au/minisite/testaustralia/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:26:45 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: The Founder of Anthroposophy
G'day Christine,
is the source of the "Warmth Course" Steiner or St Michael? If you don't
know the course it is available at
(http://www.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/GA/index.php?ga=GA0321) .
See you, Peter
_________________________________________________________________
Get Extra Storage in 10MB, 25MB, 50MB and 100MB options now! Go to
http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-au&page=hotmail/es2
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 13:45:21 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Cult - NOT
Christine wrote:
) Hello Walden,
)
) No, I cannot "respect your 'cult experience' because you have not
established
) for me or anyone else through recognized criteria that you were indeed
) involved in a "cult experience."
Hi Christine,
Are you suggesting that the people who share with me their cult-like
experiences vis a vis Waldorf/Anthroposophy are simply wrong to feel the way
they feel? After exiting Waldorf/Anthroposophy the only way *I* found
closure was to dig deeper. What was it that attracted me in the first
place, why did I stay involved (with my children) for as long as I did and
how do I feel now that I am out? I refused to use the "cult" label for a
very long time - quite honestly, it made me feel very uncomfortable. I am
not saying every Waldorf survivor or critic shares these feelings but for
some of us there was more to the school than parent meetings or organizing
the Christmas festival. After we left, the first phone call I received from
an ex-Waldorf family (who have never had anything to do with PLANS or this
list) involved the mother telling me she was pleased to see that our family
had "left the cult." Some days days later the father of another ex-Waldorf
family phoned with the same message. He was unaware of the previous caller.
Since that time I have bumped into more ex-Waldorf parents (in real life as
opposed to Internet) who have the same feelings. People are not always
comfortable talking about their involvement with a "cult" but the clarity of
the shared experience leaves us with no other plausible explanation.
I am not talking about a Jonestown scenario when I speak of "cults" or a
"cult-like experience." In my opinion, the word "cult," or "cult-like" is
quite appropriate when speaking about Waldorf/Anthroposophy. Please note
that there is no judgement attached to this definition. It is simply a very
honest reflection of direct personal experience. I am certainly not alone
in this respect.
Perhaps the following dictionary definitions will help:
Mirriam-Webster Online:
Main Entry: an·thro·pos·o·phy
Pronunciation: "an(t)-thr&-'pä-s&-fE
Function: noun
: a 20th century religious system growing out of theosophy and centering on
human development
Main Entry: cult
Pronunciation: 'k<
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration,
from colere to cultivate -- more at WHEEL
1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of
adherents
4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its
promulgator (health cults)
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film
or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual
fad b : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion
I'm really not too interested in dancing around the "cult question" with
you, Christine. We have better things to do. You do not believe you are
involved with a cult or a cult-like religious sect, etc. You also do not
believe *I* was involved in anything of the sort, either. OK.
I don't need you to understand or respect how I feel. Nor do I need you to
empathize with the families whose pain and confusion can be attributed to
their time in Waldorf/Anthroposophy and subsequent turbulent feelings after
having left the "movement." Without trying to sound overly paternalistic, I
actually understand where you are coming from. So... how about spending our
time productively?
When you arrived on this list I was (and still am) hopeful to find common
ground in order to build a better tomorrow for Waldorf and thus, a clearer
understanding of Waldorf/Anthroposophy for potential customers. I believe
we agree that Waldorf PR is missing some very critical elements.
You wrote:
"One of your "questions in waiting" is for me to look
at the list of "questions and answers" commonly given to incoming Waldorf
parents and to see if some of the answers should be revised for more
disclosure.
I answered you a while ago that I would try to find the time around
mid-March
and I asked you to also prepare the same list yourself, so that we can
compare
our answers. Have you been working on your list of answers?"
You are (or were) a Waldorf teacher. I am not, nor have I ever been (in a
official capacity) a Waldorf teacher. You have expressed an interest in
helping form a better, more accurate understanding of Waldorf education than
that which currently exists in Waldorf public relations. Clearly, you have a
deep understanding Waldorf education as well as an ability to articulate and
expand on important aspects of the pedagogy/impulse. You also seem to
understand the communication problems that exist between Waldorf and the
public. If you honestly believe that *my* help is necessary in this work,
I will gladly contribute (he says while blushing).
I wonder if a more productive approach might be for you to re-work the
Waldorf Questions and Answers and post the results here for my (our)
comments? After all, as a trained Waldorf teacher and supporter of the
movement you have the experience and positive attitude regarding Waldorf as
well as a very real understanding of the problem at hand. From this
valuable vantage point, why don't *you* use your talents (as a good writer)
and experience (with Waldorf/Anthroposophy) to fill in the gaps. The
Waldorf FAQ's would seem a logical place to start. Obviously, the current
version of this document leaves a great deal to be desired. I am glad we
agree on this issue.
If you feel I am asking too much and would still like some help with the
FAQ's, I will gladly add my two cents. I suspect, however, you can "tell it
like it is" without much help from the likes of me. Absolutely, I will be
delighted to add comment or ask questions after you post the first draft
here.
I sincerely look forward to reading your updated Waldorf FAQ's as I think it
is a positive step in our working together to make a better, transparent,
more realistic tomorrow for those who might be drawn toward Waldorf
education. As always, I appreciate your time.
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 16:13:35 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Kimberton school finances questioned
Kimberton school finances questioned
KATE SAUNDERS , Special to the Local News 03/09/2004
http://www.dailylocal.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=11091560&BRD=1671&PAG=461&dept_id=17782&rfi=6
KIMBERTON -- Parents, former board members and
alumni of Kimberton Waldorf School convey
differing opinions pertaining to the school's
newly found financial stresses, some expressing
frustration and others defending the school.
Recent budget deficits have been acknowledged by
both the board members and parents, according to
several parents (some of whom have chosen to
remain anonymous) and postings on the school's
Web site.
The actual amount of funds used each year was
found to be significantly higher than that
reported, using the endowment to pay for the rest
of the school's expenses, according to several
parents.
Over the last few years the budget was subsidized
by endowment funds, so that an estimated
three-quarters of the original endowment has been
spent within about six years, according to
parents who attended school meetings and remain
active with school activities.
Presently, Kimberton Waldorf is prepared to make
several sacrifices for the 2004-2005 school year
including raises in tuition of between 10 and 15
percent. The actual percentage will depend on
enrollment for the year, according to parents.
About seven teachers and staff who planned to
leave will not be replaced next year. As a
result, some courses will not be offered,
according to parents and the school's Web site.
Disagreement between parents, former board
members and alumni lies with the character of the
financial problems, some calling the situation a
"mismanagement" of funds and asking for several
board members' resignations.
However, others believe the current situation has
been exaggerated and based in misinformation.
"There seems to be a nucleus of a dissatisfied
group," said Eleanor Morris, the widow of state
Rep. Sam Morris, who was a member of the board
from the school's founding until his death in
1995. "As far as I'm concerned, there is no
problem with the majority of the parents," she
said.
Morris, who has a long association with the
school, was also instrumental in the construction
of the Samuel W. Morris Building for Gardening
and Earth Studies, dedicated to her husband.
According to Morris, KWS had difficulty with the
Garden building project. The construction, which
was originally a small, pole building, was
expanded with classrooms. Costs then continued to
rise as an additional well was needed and
electrical wiring was replaced amid stock market
losses, according to Morris.
"Tuition is the issue," said Morris. The rising
costs that the school has incurred are common in
any business and do not merit the accusations
made by some parents, according to Morris.
"Everything you do in life people will question,"
she said. "Calling it mismanagement is a result
of people being upset. This group was prompted by
a rise in tuition and is beginning to question
other things."
The deadline for the school's yearly contract,
which parents sign in agreement that their
children will attend another year, was March 1.
According to some parents, several students were
not expected to return, citing the raises in
tuition and a feeling of "mistrust."
Some parents accuse the school of not acting
responsibly and not considering the interest of
the school's future. Board members act as
trustees of the school.
"It's hard to blame ourselves," said John
Schopfer, parent of a KWS student. "We are all
responsible." The school is faculty-run and board
members are mainly parents or teachers.
"I don't know if I would characterize this as
mismanagement," said Schopfer. "Throughout the
long history, the endowment has been up at times
and low at times."
Kimberton Waldorf School is a public charity, so donations are tax exempt.
"There are always going to be problems," said Ron
Petrou, a former public relations official for
the school. "Every foundation and every school
experiences problems. From what I understand,
money spent was put into programs."
Petrou called reactions of some parents "pure
alarmism" and said that KWS is "one of the
wealthiest Waldorf schools in the country."
Parents and alumni agree that the value of
Kimberton Waldorf is immeasurable, with its
unique approach to teaching and encouraging
children to develop on their own. All of those
who commented for this story wish to maintain
that mission set forth by the founders, with
differing ideas on how that goal is to be
achieved.
Waldorf schools were created by Rudolf Steiner,
an Austrian scientist who was asked to manage a
school for the children of the employees at
Waldorf Astoria cigarette factory in Stuttgart,
Germany. Stipulations were that the school be
coed, open to any student, be an entire 12-year
program and be independently financed and
operated.
Keeping in the Steiner tradition, Kimberton
Waldorf School was founded in 1941 by Alarik and
Mabel Myrin who donated their 432-acre estate to
the school which now serves 370 students. The
Myrins were very dedicated to the school and its
mission to develop well-rounded individuals
through the generally untraditional educational
program that focuses on creativity and
independence.
(c)Daily Local News 2004
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:54:01 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: Re: Cult - NOT
Hello Walden,
Having been a Waldorf Parent and (by your assertions) heavily involved in the
Waldorf school and how it functioned, I should think that you have some idea
of how those questions should be answered. If not, don't hold your breath
waiting for me to do your "assignment." I was willing to put myself out for it,
but only with an equal effort on your part.
I am still getting vagueness and "feelings" from you on the "cult" question.
There are concrete definitions that are objective and able to be measured. If
you will answer the direct questions I asked, then I will be able to evaluate
those answers, or we can evaluate them together, against the established
criteria. If you are not willing to answer those questions, then I can't take your
assertions seriously. I have already acknowledged and sincerely sympathized
with the fact that you and other have had some "bad experiences" with Waldorf.
But translating those personal experiences into blanket indictments of the
whole worldwide movement is to take upon yourselves the position of judge and
jury. But no matter how a "judge" or "jury member" feels about a case, he or she
must weigh the facts and evidence against law and precident and give as
objective a judgement as possible.
If you consider my attitude toward your feelings "disrespectful" - consider
the fact that by labeling Waldorf Education and the Anthroposophical Society as
"cults" (in terms of the definitions which I have been able to find so far
and am still researching), you are completely disrespecting the intelligence,
autonomy, aesthetic awareness and independent reasoning ability of hundreds of
thousands of people worldwide. This is a big hat to wear, Walden. Are you sure
you are really up to it? Are you sure that your personal experience is the
objective one and none of "our" experiences and thoughts are objective or have
any independent perspective behind them?
I personally have had no contact whatsoever with any Waldorf or
Anthroposophical person or organization for over 10 years before I joined a couple of
internet groups in the past year. Wouldn't you think that no matter HOW
"brainwashed" I could have been in the past, that a full decade would have been enough
time to "recover" and to recognize the "terrible" effects it had on my life? And
if not, why am I not "running back" to the "safety and security" of a Waldorf
community of some sort, "confessing my sins of omission", "asking
forgiveness" and to be "taken back into the fold"? Am I just plain "dumb" or what? Am I
an ignorant person, Walden? Are my bookshelves full of NOTHING but Steiner
books and do I run screaming from any discussion with a person who doesn't think
like I do? Are the vastly differentiated life experiences that I have had over
my 48 years and over all four corners of this country totally irrelevant to my
life and totally invalid as tools for me to evaluate the meaning and purpose
of Rudolf Steiner's influence in my life?
Have you heard the widely individualistic voices on Anthroposophy Tomorrow,
Walden? Have you heard us argue among ourselves and even criticize each other's
opinions and viewpoint? Have you gotten any glimpse of the amazing
individuality between us all? In my opinion, no two voices among "us" sound the same -
no two life stories are alike and there are extremely different streams of
interest and discussion among "us". Does this speak to you at all about "cookie
cutter" personalities or relationships with Rudolf Steiner's work?
In my opinion, there is vastly more similarity that I find in "your" group of
critics among yourselves in tone, expression and even in the phrases "shared"
between you all when arguing than I can perceive among the "Anthropops" on
the AT site.
I have always respected your personal experience, Walden - yours and everyone
else's who have expressed difficulties with Waldorf Education, generally or
specifically. I have said so and spent time discussing those experiences
seriously and with the attitude that they are real and valid. I have never indicated
or suggested that anyone only "thought" they had those experiences because
they were too stupid to see the truth or to understand what was "really going
on." But I have found an appalling amount of disrespect being shown to me and to
other who openly and honestly attempt to communicate on this forum, sometimes
directly, sometimes by implication.
The charge of "cult" is very serious to me, Walden, as a true cult is the
antithesis of human freedom. It involves surrendering one's intelligence and
independent power of thought, discernment and critical judgement. It involves
devotion based on faith alone and unquestioning allegiance. And it involves a
surrendering of one's will to action and allowing that will to be placed in the
service of an individual or group without any application of moral or ethical
evaluation of that action. As a person who has spent 48 years rejecting anything
in her life that could ask her or make her surrender her freedom in any of
these areas, I have a passionate antipathy towards the level of
self-righteousness exhibited among you who venture to "have pity" on me for my stupidity and
blindness.
Get the log out of your own eyes before you start worrying about my splinters.
Christine Natale
March 10, 2004
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 21:31:44 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Linda Verlee Williams references
Christine,
I don't understand what I am supposed to get from the posts you made with
the subject line
"Teaching for the Two-Sided Mind References."
Are those chapters from the book? I apologize for being obtuse, but I really
do not comprehend what you mean to show by reproducing those
chapters/essays, etc.
As one of the Peters pointed out (and as has been pointed out on this list
many times before), there is substantial disagreement about the way
research into brain function and structure has been intrepreted. Respected
researchers do not agree, not by a long shot, on all aspects of this.
I also am wondering why what Williams wrote has relevance to the subject of
the original post, which as I recall was the so-called "9 Year Change"
recognized by Waldorf teachers. I would appreciate it if you could explain,
so that I could better understand the point you intended to make.
Lisa
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 06:35:36 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: Re Cult - NOT
Christine wrote (extracted from quite a long post to Walden):
But I have found an appalling amount of disrespect being shown to me and to
other who openly and honestly attempt to communicate on this forum,
sometimes
directly, sometimes by implication.
Peter F. responds:
G'day Christine,
I am amazed that you think there is a lack of respect here compared to the
stupidity that goes on over on AT. Contributors are treated with much more
respect here than they are there, and yet you are complaining about a lack
of respect here and not there. This makes no sense to me at all. Walden,
among others, is universally respectful. I know you disagree with Peter
Staudenmaier, but he is also always much more respectful of others' ideas
and opinions than any of the Anthroposphist defenders have been of his.
I agree that the inhabitants of AT are a diverse bunch, but they do share in
common this inability to dispassionately examine what it is that Steiner
said and wrote. I can understand that the arguments about racism might be
difficult. Arguments of the value of Steiner's work as a scientist ought not
be.
I asked you earlier about whether St Michael or Steiner was the source of
the "Warmth Course". In so far as the warmth course talks about science, it
is almost completely wrong. There may be something correct in it but I am
yet to find it. To be specific, in Lecture 2
(http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/GA/GA0321/19200302a01.html) Steiner
misstates and distorts well known science of the time. Johannes van der
Waals won the 1910 Nobel Prize for his work on the equation of state for
gases (see http://www.nobel.se/physics/laureates/1910/waals-lecture.pdf) His
work gave the higher order corrections for gases that Steiner gives
incorrectly as the change in volume. van der Waals work effectively refutes
everthing Steiner says. No part of it is correct. As well the mathematical
argument is just plain wrong. Either Steiner was largely ignorant of the
scientific understanding of the time and went ahead anyway without any care
for accuracy or any thought of his own limited understanding, or he has
deliberately distorted it knowing it to be wrong. If the former is true,
Steiner is guilty of arrogance, if the latter, he is guilty of dishonesty.
All of the scientific work of Steiner that I have looked at, and for which I
have some expertise, has this character. He is often inaccurate to the point
of serious distortion, usually attached to some message related to his
particular version of spirituality, and sometimes to a criticism of
scientists of the time for their stupidity.
This says nothing about the truth or otherwise of any spiritual matters that
arise in it. But it should act as a call to examine all of Steiner's work
with some skepticism.
Respectfully, Peter
_________________________________________________________________
You could be a genius! Find out by taking the IQ Test 2003. $5.50 (incl
GST). Click here: http://sites.ninemsn.com.au/minisite/testaustralia/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 23:19:37 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: FAQ's
Hi Christine,
You wrote:
) Hello Walden,
)
) Having been a Waldorf Parent and (by your assertions) heavily involved in
the
) Waldorf school and how it functioned, I should think that you have some
idea
) of how those questions should be answered. If not, don't hold your breath
) waiting for me to do your "assignment." I was willing to put myself out
for it,
) but only with an equal effort on your part.
I won't "hold my breath" Christine. It's just that I thought you cared
enough about Waldorf education to help it move into the future. It's called
a "movement" yet I see little "movement." You have indicated an awareness
of the problem (Steiner the scientist, etc) and you have acknowledged the
misleading advertising (or at best, problematic PR) and you showed a
willingness to help rectify this situation. It's not *my* "assignment." I
was hoping we had found common ground. I was hoping you cared more than to
tell me to not hold my breath. My suggestion was simply for you to re-work
the FAQ's according to what you know and feel about Waldorf education. I
honestly believe you know much more than me. When you post the draft, I
will happily add my comments. Does this not seem a logical approach to
this project? I am convinced we can re-work the FAQ's to reflect the
reality of Waldorf education. There is no hidden agenda on my part.
If you have another suggestion for the project, please let me know.
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 00:45:19 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Cult - NOT
Christine wrote:
) I am still getting vagueness and "feelings" from you on the "cult"
question.
) There are concrete definitions that are objective and able to be measured.
If
) you will answer the direct questions I asked, then I will be able to
evaluate
) those answers, or we can evaluate them together, against the established
) criteria. If you are not willing to answer those questions, then I can't
take your
) assertions seriously.
I already informed you that I am not interested in discussing whether you
believe my experience. I offered two dictionary definitions
("anthroposophy" and "cult") to help you understand, yet I see no
acknowledgement of this in your post.
I have already acknowledged and sincerely sympathized
) with the fact that you and other have had some "bad experiences" with
Waldorf.
) But translating those personal experiences into blanket indictments of the
) whole worldwide movement is to take upon yourselves the position of judge
and
) jury.
No, there was no blanket indictment on my part. You do not see
Waldorf/Anthro as a cult - I do. You seem to see "cult" as evil - I don't.
I have one friend who openly speaks of his time in Scientology as
disturbing, yet good for him at the time (he *had* a drug problem and is now
clean). His bottom line is that the "cult" helped him clean up. He has
other things to say about the cult but over all - he thinks it might have
saved his life. Another friend lived in a cult-like community for years
(complete with real life guru) and while he finds it difficult to talk about
some of the goings on, he does not see his time there as wasted or demonic.
This friend was later involved in anthroposophy and sees it as "cult-like."
Again, I am not here to judge you or anthroposophy, Christine.
) If you consider my attitude toward your feelings "disrespectful" -
consider
) the fact that by labeling Waldorf Education and the Anthroposophical
Society as
) "cults" (in terms of the definitions which I have been able to find so far
) and am still researching), you are completely disrespecting the
intelligence,
) autonomy, aesthetic awareness and independent reasoning ability of
hundreds of
) thousands of people worldwide. This is a big hat to wear, Walden. Are you
sure
) you are really up to it?
You did not read what I wrote, Christine. Please try again. I never said
or inferred everyone affiliated with Waldorf education belongs to a cult.
Many people are not directly involved and simply see it as the best option
at a particular time. Please read what I *do* write. Or leave it and let's
work on what we agree needs to be done regarding Waldorf PR. BTW, hundreds
of thousands? You might want to check the membership of the AS.
Wouldn't you think that no matter HOW
) "brainwashed" I could have been in the past, that a full decade would have
been enough
) time to "recover" and to recognize the "terrible" effects it had on my
life?
I did not suggest you are "brainwashed and did not use the words you "quote"
above and continue with in the rest of your post.
Am I just plain "dumb" or what? Am I
) an ignorant person, Walden? Are my bookshelves full of NOTHING but Steiner
) books and do I run screaming from any discussion with a person who doesn't
think
) like I do?
You're losing me here. You seem to have misconstrued my post and seem upset
and that is not a good thing if we are to work together. FWIW, I did not
say you were "dumb" or ignorant. Actually, I complimented you on your
writing.
I feel that we are being pulled away from something tangible and meaningful.
Let's work with the FAQ's, shall we?
-Walden
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1288
-- Topica Digest --
Writing in grade 1
By nmfoss hotmail.com
incorrect scientist
By feetapparel hotmail.com
Re: Writing in grade 1
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] To Peter
By feetapparel hotmail.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:02:58 -0500
From: "Nicole Foss" (nmfoss hotmail.com)
Subject: Writing in grade 1
Daniel wrote (at Antroposophy_tomorrow): Just as an FYI, I went to a Waldorf open house last weekend just to check it out. In the first grade class room all the books were out, and all of them had writing in them! Writing done by the students, no less! and it was in complete sentences! In First Grade! To read things over at the WC, this is impossible. No Waldorf School does this, supposedly. Reality check?
Nicole: You would have seen this in my youngest daughter's grade 1 class as well - long poems in flowing cursive script. The catch is that none of the children (except the ones who had learned to read and write at home) had any idea what it meant. They didn't think of it as writing. To them it was just a fancy form drawing exercise copied from the board. It looked beautiful, but was essentially meaningless - a triumph of style over substance for children who didn't even know the alphabet. When my daughter changed schools she had to repeat grade 1 as she had no idea how to write. She could read a little (only because I had taught her at home), but she struggled with phonics as she wasn't learning it at school. She was already a year behind her age-mates due to the different Waldorf cut-off date for entry into grade 1 and she's now in a class with children two years younger. Parents need to know how difficult it can be for children to make the transition from Waldorf to a mainstream school.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 21:32:41 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: incorrect scientist
Valentina in another place wrote in response to Christine reposting my post
there but not responding to it here:
"In the fwd'd message we can see another favourite riff of the "Cthulhu
Heads
Band", Namely "Steiner as incorrect scientist" .
How does it play ? It's enough to counter Steiner's statement hiding oneself
behind some "big fish" authority in this case a "Nobel Prize":- and we all
know what was is the accuracy and seriousness of the "lottery" (how
E:Fermi called it) and most of all the everlasting objective scientific
value of the "discoveries "- shake it welll and oh-la-la-la !! the drink
is on the table."
Peter F responds:
This misses the point entirely. I don't care whether Steiner was right or
wrong about the science or whether the big fish Nobel Laureate was right or
wrong. What I have shown is that Steiner misrepresented not his own view but
the scientific view of the time. For much of the Second Lecture of the
Warmth Course Steiner is describing the then current status of the expansion
of solids, liquids and gases with temperature. The point is that he doesn't
do this accurately. He misrepresents and distorts it. The point of referring
to the Nobel Laureate (van der Waals) who could never be referred to as
winning the Nobel Prize undeservedly, was to demonstrate that someone who
was keeping up with what was happening in the sciences at the time could not
have missed this work unless he was really sloppy in his scholarship.
Doesn't this sound like the criticisms made of Peter Staudenmaier over
there: sloppy scholarship, misrepresentation and distortion. I call
Steiner's misrepresentation dishonest. I further claim that this is not an
isolated instance but part of a continuing pattern throughout his work of
misrepresenting the work of others to audiences unfamiliar with that work
with the intention of furthering his own position.
I don't know whether Steiner was a racist or not. It seems clear to me that
Peter Staudenmaier has presented sufficient evidence that there is a case to
consider. On the other hand it is much more clear to me that Steiner was
dishonest. I have offered one part of that evidence in a comparison of
Lecture 2 of the Warmth Course with descriptions of what was really
happening in scientific circles in the decades before Steiner delivered the
Warmth course. I have also referred to the lecture on Einstein and
Relativity in "From Elephants to Einstein" which I claim is similarly
dishonest. I am happy to work through these lectures in detail with anyone
who so desires to point out the misrepresentations and distortions. I refer
again to Steiner's argument that the true nature of Waldorf Education should
be kept from the parents. This makes it clear that Steiner thought that it
was ok to mislead and deceive in order to achieve his ends. I don't think
this is consistent with the claims of high moral character and the bluster
about libel and slander.
See you, Peter
_________________________________________________________________
You could be a genius! Find out by taking the IQ Test 2003. $5.50 (incl
GST). Click here: http://sites.ninemsn.com.au/minisite/testaustralia/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 19:19:19 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: Writing in grade 1
Lisa here: Yes, the fact that the grade one (and grade two, and grade three
...) children copy those beautiful poems and flowing cursive directly from
the teacher's writing on the board came as a big shock to my husband and I,
as well.
We were so excited when we were told (before enrolling) that Waldorf
kids create their "own" textbooks, and shown examples from different grades.
I was astounded at the intricate designs in the borders, the detailed
drawings, etc. Very impressive -- until you find that every book in the
class looks almost exactly the same, and that the children copy the shapes
and colors like little parrots, with no creativity allowed.
Certainly there is something to be said from rote repitition in some
areas of education; after all, one can teach multiplication and addition
with manipulatives, etc., but in the end, the children need to memorize that
"two times two equals four."
But all this copying, and for such a long time (into fourth grade, which
is finally when we couldn't stand it anymore and pulled my older girl), just
is not conducive to real learning and development of writing skills and
critical thinking skills.
Not to mention it misleads parents. I was not the only Waldorf parent
who was surprised to see that the beautiful "textbooks" were copied, and
eaach looked eerily alike.
) From: Nicole Foss (nmfoss hotmail.com)
) Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:02:58 -0500
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Subject: Writing in grade 1
)
)
) Daniel wrote (at Antroposophy_tomorrow): Just as an FYI, I went to a Waldorf
) open house last weekend just to check it out. In the first grade class room
) all the books were out, and all of them had writing in them! Writing done by
) the students, no less! and it was in complete sentences! In First Grade! To
) read things over at the WC, this is impossible. No Waldorf School does this,
) supposedly. Reality check?
)
) Nicole: You would have seen this in my youngest daughter's grade 1 class as
) well - long poems in flowing cursive script. The catch is that none of the
) children (except the ones who had learned to read and write at home) had any
) idea what it meant. They didn't think of it as writing. To them it was just a
) fancy form drawing exercise copied from the board. It looked beautiful, but
) was essentially meaningless - a triumph of style over substance for children
) who didn't even know the alphabet. When my daughter changed schools she had to
) repeat grade 1 as she had no idea how to write. She could read a little (only
) because I had taught her at home), but she struggled with phonics as she
) wasn't learning it at school. She was already a year behind her age-mates due
) to the different Waldorf cut-off date for entry into grade 1 and she's now in
) a class with children two years younger. Parents need to know how difficult it
) can be for children to make the transition from Waldorf to a mainstream
) school.
)
)
) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New
) threads are always welcome.
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 05:05:03 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] To Peter
Detlef Hardorp wrote in another place
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_tomorrow/message/3146):
When I was a professor of mathematics at Duke University many years ago, I
would regularly get visitors who were convinced that they had found a
mistake in Einstein's theory of relativity. They would usually come with
hundreds of pages of densely scribbled "proofs". "Here", they would say,
"you won't be able to find an error in this! Thus Einstein's theory is
disproven." It was difficult to discuss anything with them, because they
hadn't really grasped the fundamental notions of mathematics and physics, in
spite of the fact that they would lecture in detail about complicated
equations, using the same words that professionals use. They always had a
strange fanatical streak. I tried a few times to communicate with them, but
I gave up after a while. It is impossible to communicate with erudite
sounding fanatical quacks.
Peter F. reponds:
I have had very similar experiences to this. people come in with huge
treatises full of what looks like mathematics and arguments about physics
but which touches actual physics and mathematics almost nowhere. It is
absolutely hopeless to look at this stuff, and, of course, this leads to
accusations of the status quo ignoring the brave new inventor and so on. I
would ask Detlef to look at the examples of Steiner's work I mentioned with
some of this in mind. I would have to say that Steiner does get some of the
physics more or less right, at least much more so than some of the examples
that he and I were thinking of. On the other hand, I believe that gives me
more right to accuse Steiner of being dishonest in his approach to these
issues. I guess my question is was Steiner an "erudite sounding fanatical
quack"?
See you, Peter
_________________________________________________________________
You could be a genius! Find out by taking the IQ Test 2003. $5.50 (incl
GST). Click here: http://sites.ninemsn.com.au/minisite/testaustralia/
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1289
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Cult - NOT
By nmfoss hotmail.com
Re: The Founder of Anthroposophy
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 10:17:47 -0500
From: "Nicole Foss" (nmfoss hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Cult - NOT
Christine wrote to Walden: I am still getting vagueness and "feelings" from you on the "cult" question.
Nicole: I would also call my Waldorf experience cult-like. It was quite clear to me from early on during the time I was teaching there that Waldorf operated according to its own rules, which bore no resemblance at all to the rules people would expect at other educational institutions. It also had its own very clear religious foundation. Things were discussed in faculty meetings in completely different terms than would be used when discussing the same issues with parents. There was also a huge distrust of parent 'outsiders', who tended to be branded as troublemakers if they were too inquisitive, or were occasionally referred to as 'the enemy'. The level of paranoia was extreme in my opinion.
Our school may have been worse than many others in this regard because it was led by a very zealous anthroposophical guru (a live guru following the dead guru as someone once described to me), someone with a widespread reputation as a hardliner even amongst anthroposophists. It is, however, certainly not the only school to suffer from the same problems and not the only one with a 'cultish' atmosphere. I am aware of many people from all over the world with stories very like mine. An almost total lack of accountability is a very common theme. The work you and Walden were discussing could help to increase openness and accountability, which should ultimately be as beneficial to Waldorf as it would be to parents whose worldview is incompatible with anthroposophy - by keeping the two apart.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 22:50:45 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: The Founder of Anthroposophy
Hi Bruce,
You wrote: (snip)
) Much of what passes for enlightenment and truth - in any and every
religious and spiritual philosophy - is hate consciousness, pure and simple.
It's also fear )consciousness. The idea that aspects of Anthroposophy are
born out of fear, is something no anthroposophist I ever worked with ever
cared to admit or even )consider. And that shows me just how deep the
dysfunctional believing lives. And I speak from experience when I say that -
for what that's worth.
That was worth quite a bit to me, actually. Interesting. I can relate.
Thanks. If you'd care to elaborate on fear and anthroposophic beliefs I'd
be interested.
-Walden
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1290
-- Topica Digest --
Eating Their Words
By Golden3000997 cs.com
Open or Closed Case
By Golden3000997 cs.com
Dannion Brinkley
By Golden3000997 cs.com
Admin: OT warning (Re: Eating Their Words)
By dan dandugan.com
Lisa's List of Cults Part One
By Golden3000997 cs.com
Lisa's List of Cults Part Two
By Golden3000997 cs.com
Re: Eating Their Words
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: Open or Closed Case
By momof2gals mindspring.com
re: Lisa's list of cults
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: Lisa's list of cults
By Golden3000997 cs.com
Re: Open or Closed Case
By Golden3000997 cs.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 17:57:59 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: Eating Their Words
I think that Waldorf (& Anthroposophy) critics should sit down and have a
good hard look at who they should really be spending their time working against.
How about putting people's words in the context of their intentions and their
actions?
Christine - end of editorializing
*****************************************
Subj: [earthchanges] Eating Their Words
Date: 3/13/2004 1:14:14 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: atlantisup aol.com
Reply-to: (A HREF="mailto:earthchanges yahoogroups.com")
earthchanges yahoogroups.com(/A)
To: earthchanges yahoogroups.com
Eating Their Words
William Rivers Pitt is a New York Times best-selling author of two books, War
On Iraq (Context Books) and The Greatest Sedition is Silence (Pluto Press).
His book Our Flag, Too: The Paradox of Patriotism will be available in August
from Context Books.
"I'm a firm believer in feeding people their own words back to them,
when it's appropriate."
-Trent Lott
As we hurtle headlong into the silly season, a high colonic for the mind is
in order. There is going to be a lot of back-and-forth between the candidates
regarding who said what and when. Feast, in that context, upon this small
collection:
"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to
explain
to us what the exit strategy is."
- George W. Bush, discussing Kosovo, Houston Chronicle, 04-09-99
"I said on my program, if, if the Americans go in and overthrow Saddam
Hussein and it's clean, he has nothing, I will apologize to the nation, and I
will
not trust the Bush administration again."
- Bill O'Reilly, on ABC's Good Morning America, 03-18-03
"I tell people don't kill all the liberals. Leave enough so we can have
two
on every campusliving fossilsso we will never forget what these people
stood
for."
- Rush Limbaugh, Denver Post, 12-29-95
"If the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual gay sex
within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to
polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery. You
have the
right to anything. All of those things are antithetical to a healthy, stable,
traditional family and that's sort of where we are in today's world,
unfortunately. It all comes from, I would argue, the right to privacy that
doesn't
exist, in my opinion, in the United States Constitution."
- Sen. Rick Santorum (R-Pa.), Associated Press, 04-22-03
"I would warn Orlando that you're right in the way of some serious
hurricanes, and I don't think I'd be waving those flags in God's face if I
were you.
This is not a message of hate; this is a message of redemption. But a
condition
like this will bring about the destruction of your nation. It'll bring about
terrorist bombs; it'll bring earthquakes, tornadoes and possibly a
meteor."
- Pat Robertson, speaking of organizers putting rainbow flags up around
Orlando to support sexual diversity, The Washington Post, 06-10-98. For the
record, Orlando remains undestroyed by meteors.
"Environmentalists are a socialist group of individuals that are the
tool of
the Democrat Party. I'm proud to say that they are my enemy. They are not
Americans, never have been Americans, never will be Americans."
- Rep. Don Young (R-Alaska), Alaska Public Radio, 08-19-96
"When you strip it all away, Jerry Garcia destroyed his life on drugs.
And
yet he's being honored, like some godlike figure. Our priorities are out of
whack, folks."
- Rush (currently under investigation for drug use) Limbaugh, on the
death of Jerry Garcia, 08-20-95.
"I don't understand how poor people think."
- George W. Bush, confiding in the Rev. Jim Wallis, The New York Times,
08-26-03
"Get rid of the guy. Impeach him, censure him, assassinate him."
- Rep. James Hansen (R-Utah), talking about President Clinton, as
reported by journalist Steve Miner of KSUB radio who overheard his
conversation,
11-01-98
"We're going to keep building the party until we're hunting Democrats
with
dogs."
- Sen. Phil Gramm (R-Texas), Mother Jones, 08-95
"My only regret with Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to The New York
Times
building."
- Ann Coulter, The New York Observer, 08-26-02
"Homosexuals want to come into churches and disrupt church services and
throw
blood all around and try to give people AIDS and spit in the face of
ministers."
- Pat Robertson again, The 700 Club, 01-18-95
"And there is, I am certain, among the Iraqi people a respect for the
care
and the precision that went into the bombing campaign."
- Donald Rumsfeld, defenselink.mil, 04-09-03
"Emotional appeals about working families trying to get by on $4.25 an
hour
are hard to resist. Fortunately, such families do not exist."
- Rep. Tom DeLay (R-Texas), House Majority Whip, during a debate on
increasing the minimum wage, Congressional Record, H3706, 04-23-96
"Chelsea is a Clinton. She bears the taint; and though not prosecutable
in
law, in custom and nature the taint cannot be ignored. All the great
despotisms
of the pastI'm not arguing for despotism as a principle, but they sure knew
how to deal with potential troublerecognized that the families of
objectionable citizens were a continuing threat. In Stalin's penal code it
was a crime to
be the wife or child of an 'enemy of the people.' The Nazis used the same
principle, which they called Sippenhaft, 'clan liability.' In Imperial China,
enemies of the state were punished 'to the ninth degree': that is, everyone
in the
offender's own generation would be killed and everyone related via four
generations up, to the great-great-grandparents, and four generations down,
to the
great-great-grandchildren, would also be killed."
- John Derbyshire, National Review, 02-15-01
"I know this is painful for the ladies to hear, but if you get married,
you
have accepted the headship of a man, your husband. Christ is the head of the
household and the husband is the head of the wife, and that's the way it is,
period."
- Pat Robertson again, The 700 Club, 01-08-92
"Probably nothing."
- Jeb Bush, during his losing 1994 bid for Florida Governor, when asked
what he would do for black people, quoted by Salon on 10-05-02
"The homosexual blitzkrieg has been better planned and executed than
Hitler's."
- Rep. William Dannemeyer (R-Calif.), The New Republic, 08-01-94
"When lawlessness is abroad in the land, the same thing will happen here
that
happened in Nazi Germany. Many of those people involved in Adolph Hitler were
Satanists. Many of them were homosexuals. The two things seem to go
together."
- Pat Robertson again, The 700 Club, 01-21-93
"Why is this man in the White House? The majority of Americans did not
vote
for him. Why is he there? And I tell you this morning that he's in the White
House because God put him there for a time such as this."
- Lt. General William G. Boykin, Deputy Undersecretary of Defense, The
New York Times, 10-17-03
"We need to execute people like John Walker in order to physically
intimidate
liberals, by making them realize that they can be killed, too. Otherwise,
they will turn out to be outright traitors."
- Ann Coulter, at the Conservative Political Action Conference, 02-26-02
"I don't want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the
size
where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub."
- Grover Norquist, President of Americans for Tax Reform, NPR Morning
Edition, 05-25-01
"I don't agree that you need an enormous number of American troops.
Saddam's
army is down to one-third than it was before, and I think it would be a
cakewalk."
- Kenneth Adelman, Defense Policy Board, to Wolf Blitzer on CNN,
12-06-01
"The fact of the matter is that this (increased American casualties) is
a
sign of the success of our operation, not its failure."
- Ralph Reed, GOP strategist, on MSNBC's program 'Hardball,' 10-28-03
"There are some who feel that, you know, the conditions are such that
they
can attack us there. My answer is, bring 'em on. We have the force necessary
to
deal with the situation."
- George W. Bush, The Chicago Tribune, 07-03-03
"The truth is that for reasons that have a lot to do with the U.S.
government
bureaucracy, we settled on the one issue that everyone could agree on, which
was weapons of mass destruction as the core reason."
- Paul Wolfowitz, quoted by Tim Russert on 'Meet The Press, NBC,
06-01-03
"Quit looking at the symbols. Get out and get a job. Quit shooting each
other. Quit having illegitimate babies."
- State Rep. John Graham Altman (R-SC), addressing African-American
concerns about the 'symbol' of the Confederate Flag, The New York Times,
01-24-97
"Two things made this country great: White men & Christianity. The
degree
these two have diminished is in direct proportion to the corruption and fall
of
the nation. Every problem that has arisen (sic) can be directly traced back
to
our departure from God's Law and the disenfranchisement of White men."
- State Rep. Don Davis (R-NC), e-mailed to every member of the North
Carolina House and Senate, reported by The Fayetteville Observer, 08-22-01
"NOW is saying that in order to be a woman, you've got to be a
lesbian."
- Pat Robertson again, The 700 Club, 12-03-97
"My biggest fear is going to be going to the funeral of some young Iowa
man
or woman who dies in this conflict and having their mother or father come up
to
me and ask whether or not their son or daughter died for America, or died to
save Bill Clinton's presidency. I don't know what I would say to those
grieving parents. For that reason I believe the President must resign
immediately."
- Rep. Jim Nussle (R-IA), Congressional Record, H11963, 12-18-98
"Why should we hear about body bags and deaths and how many, what day
it's
gonna happen? It's not relevant. So why should I waste my beautiful mind on
something like that?"
- Barbara Bush, said on 'Good Morning America' the day before the Iraq
war started, The New York Times, 01-13-03
"I'm the commandersee, I don't need to explainI don't need to explain
why
I say things. That's the interesting thing about being the President. Maybe
somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like
I
owe anybody an explanation."
- George W. Bush, Washington Post, 11-19-02
These quotes, and about a thousand others equally as preposterous, can be
found in a new book by Bruce Miller and Diana Maio titled Take Them At Their
Words. The next time our valiant conservative leadership bemoans the
"corruption
and fall of the nation," remember that, by and large, these bemoaners
are the
clowns who have been running the circus for the last several years.
A few are also up for re-election in 2004. Bear that in mind.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 18:03:07 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: Open or Closed Case
Minds are like parachutes; they only function when open. - Sir James Dewar
A closed mind is a good thing to lose.
Some minds are like concrete, thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
~mrantho
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 18:07:46 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: Dannion Brinkley
Forwarded by Christine - no editorializing
*************************************
Subj: [earthchanges] Dannion Brinkley: Seven Truths
Date: 3/13/2004 3:13:44 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: dee777 aol.com
Reply-to: (A HREF="mailto:earthchanges yahoogroups.com")
earthchanges yahoogroups.com(/A)
To: earthchanges yahoogroups.com
CC: TruthOfTheMatter yahoogroups.com
In a message dated 3/13/2004 10:31:41 AM Pacific Standard Time, Rose53202
writes:
Seven Truths by Dannion Brinkley
In light of all the changes we have experienced in our world since
the happenings of September 11th, I feel strongly that we must
stop... and affirm certain truths. In affirming these truths, we
consciously begin the stabilization of the energy of the world
within us, thereby stabilizing the energetic spheres in the world
around us.
Truth # 1 We are great, powerful and mighty spiritual beings of
light living in a physical world with dignity, direction, and
purpose.
Truth # 2 We choose to come here as a 'force of one' in order to
make changes for the betterment of humanity, knowing that we are
capable of making a real difference. Each of us has designed our
life with as many obstacles and challenges as we could create along
with a variety of options and possibilities to overcome those same
challenges. Remember this my friends, we can never become a great
sea captain if you only sail calm waters. Be
proud that most of us have chosen to sail our ships in the North
Atlantic in winter or during typhoon season in the South China Seas!
Truth #3 We were chosen to come here. What this means is that a
great, divine, and infinitely loving Force trusts and believes we
will achieve the goal we were sent to accomplish. We will do this in
the namesake of what we personally hold Divine. I firmly believe
that very few of us ever fail this part of the life mission.
Truth # 4 We all possess an abundance of gifts and talents. One
vital aspect of living this life is to discover and develop the
wisest use these talents in order to produce the greatest possible
potential for good.
Truth # 5 We chose to be alive at this time, at this place and at
this point in history. Never before have we had such a glorious
opportunity to display our individual power and presence. Think of
this, when someone gives us a gift it is called a present. The
present we have been given today is the NOW. This is the exact
moment to truly know that we can make the difference.
Truth #6 There is a world that we existed in before we came into
this one It was beautiful. It was safe. It was all embracing. The
foundation of that world is that we are loved, cherished, and
considered precious.
Truth # 7 There is a world that exists after this one. In fact, it
is the same world we left to come here. What we leave in this world,
is the uniqueness of our divine mark. And what we take with us into
the next world is the understanding of how and why this divine mark
was our unique destiny.
Friends, if we are able to keep these simple truths in proper
perspective, what we will discover is that life is truly an
adventure. Sometimes our adventure is filled with love, sometimes
hardship. Sometimes we are either seeking or giving forgiveness. But
the adventure is always about growing and unfolding.
In closing, I ask that you never lose faith in your own divinity.
And please be conscious of this secret: the goal of life is to learn
compassion. Webster's Unabridged Dictionary defines compassion in
the following way, " a feeling of deep sympathy and sorrow for
another who is stricken by misfortune, accompanied by a strong
desire to alleviate the suffering." Now, with this in mind, look
around you everyone and you will see that your purpose is easily
definable.
Simply put compassion in action into your everyday life.
And I would like to plant this seed from, Jewels for the Soul , by
Kathryn M. Peters:
The Power of Peace
When I sustain only thoughts of love, I open myself to the
experience of peace beyond measure. My day may be decorated in an
eclectic showcase of people and circumstances that either help to
focus or distract me. Yet, my daily mission is to bring the peace
and compassion of Spirit into every situation I encounter.
Affirmation
"Connecting my mind with the compassion of Divine Mind guarantees me
the power of peace."
With purpose,
Dannion
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 17:00:45 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Admin: OT warning (Re: Eating Their Words)
Christine, I assume that all of us here are concerned about world
events, and many of us are concerned about spirituality. This list,
however, is for discussion about Waldorf education and Anthroposophy.
Please do not post off-topic material here.
-Dan Dugan
Moderator
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 22:23:20 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: Lisa's List of Cults Part One
Subj: websites in which "Anthroposophy" and the word "cult" are linked
Date: 3/9/2004 9:39:44 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: momof2gals mindspring.com (Lisa D. Ercolano)
Reply-to: waldorf-critics topica.com
To: waldorf-critics topica.com (Waldorf Critics)
Christine,
You argue quite passionately that Anthroposophy is not a cult, and offer as
evidence reference to a number of organizations whose definition of the word
"cult" you claim would prove that unfitting to describe Anthroposophy.
Having 10 minutes to spare, I typed the words "Anthroposophy" and "cult"
into Google, and came up with pages and pages of Websites, including the
following:
http://www.update.uu.se/~fbendz/pseudo/anthropos.html
http://www.cults.co.nz/ae.html
http://skepdic.com/comments/steinercom.html
http://www.gkindia.com/therapies/anthroposophicalmedicine.htm
http://www.geocities.com/mibby529/rogues.html
http://www.update.uu.se/~fbendz/pseudo/
http://psychicinvestigator.com/demo/Cults.htm
http://cultpreres.users4.50megs.com/
http://www.whyaretheydead.net/krasel/books/evans/
http://www.csj.org/pubs_co/guestcolumn/newrelmovaagaard.htm
Lisa
**************************
OK Lisa,
Let's look at the List:
*********************************
(1) http://www.update.uu.se/~fbendz/pseudo/anthropos.html
************************************
(Christine) - Home page of Frederik Bendz
Not much info about him or where he is coming from.
Has three "sects" listed:
Anthroposophy
Scientology
Jehovah's Witnesses
************************************
http://www.update.uu.se/~fbendz/index.html
Destructive sects and pseudo-sciences
Introduction
Reading about what the followers of destructive sects believe in has made me
scared of what will happen to our democratic society if their claims are not
contested. I don't think that an enlightened person would ever join any one of
these cults if he knew what they stand for, and thus I will provide
information about what different sects believe. And if their claims are un- or
pseudo-scientific, I will tell you what the scientific community has to say about them.
What I'm looking for is not to give you both sides of the story, but to
criticize things I dislike in the movements. If you want a more positive view of
them, don't ask me to give you that. Instead you should follow the "pros" links
I provide on each page.
************************************
Christine - what follows is a short, inaccurate description of Rudolf Steiner
and Anthroposophy with a link to (can you guess who? PLANS!! And Skeptic's
Dictionary (to follow).
************************************
Links
1. People for Legal and Non-Sectarian Schools
2. Here's an essay claiming that Steiner never was a member of the OTO.
3. Tio skäl att säga nej till waldorfskolor (Ten Reasons for saying no to
Waldof Schools, swedish)
4. Skeptic's Dictionary: Anthroposophy, Rudolf Steiner and Waldorf Schools
Pros
5. Waldorf - Swedish Waldorf Schools.
6. The German official(?) site
7. Järna Bridge - All about the Anthroposophical movement in Sweden.
8. Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Association
../index.htmlBack to Fredrik Bendz' homepage
Last update: January 28, 2001
(c) Fredrik Bendz
*********************************
(2) http://www.cults.co.nz/ae.html
Welcome to Cults.co.nz
and the New Zealand Cult List
New Zealand Cults, Sects, Religions, Christian Organisations, and other
groups.
Although called "The New Zealand Cult List", the list is much broader than
just a list of the cults in New Zealand. It contains both religious and secular
groups, Christian and non-Christian groups. Individuals are also included. The
list is written from a Christian perspective. For more information, please
see the About Cults.co.nz page.
About Cults.co.nz and
the New Zealand Cult List
The NZ Cult List was started on 11 September 1999 by Ian Mander as a list of
cults operating in New Zealand. It was quickly realised that a list of just
cult groups was not sufficient and so to help people sort out the good from the
bad the list expanded to include New Zealand cults, sects, religions,
Christian organisations and other groups.
The list has been slowly growing ever since. The list will never be a
complete, exhaustive list of religious groups in New Zealand, or even just the cult
groups in New Zealand.
In mid October 2003 a major overhaul was completed, with the list being
combined with more information to create a new web site - Cults.co.nz.
The new site has more information and hopefully makes the information even
easier to find. The current editor is Ian Mander.
The list entries have been written from a Christian perspective and are not
intended to offend people. Please understand that if you belong to one of the
groups listed here and you don't like what is written, you are not being
personally attacked. In almost all cases it is the group or cult that you belong to
that is being exposed - normally because they try to unfairly control the
lives of their members.
Many people take a "Let's bury our head in the sand" approach to the cults.
They ignore the dangers of cults in the mistaken belief that the cults could
not affect them. Sadly, cults and false religions can deceive all sorts of
people. Very intelligent people are often misled by the cults. For more information
on this see the Cult FAQ section on who joins cults. Read the rest of the
Cult FAQ for more information on the dangers of cults, especially mind control
Cult FAQ
Disclaimer: The below information contains many generalisations and may not
apply to any particular cult.
What is a cult?
A religious or non-religious group that probably presents itself as being
Christian or compatible with Christianity, but has either severe theological
differences to normal Christianity or has a significant detrimental sociological
impact on its members. In other words, it's got seriously bad doctrine or it
stuffs up people's lives (by using mind control to manipulate and control its
members). Normally a cult has both these problems. (See Characteristics of a
cult for more info.) A cult often has one charismatic leader that all the members
(and sub-leadership) look up to. This makes mind control much easier for the
cult.
Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons are cults because they get major doctrines
wrong and practice serious mind control.
Exclusive Brethrens are a cult because although they have pretty good
doctrine they are extremely legalistic and controlling when it comes to what members
are allowed to do. For example, ExB-run companies have two lunch rooms (one
for ExBs and one for non-ExBs), grandparents sue their own (former ExB) children
for custody of their grandchildren, etc.
A cult generally produces undesirable behaviour modification. However some
cults can sometimes create instances of desireable behaviour modification. For
example, making a messy person's life more tidy, or a completely disorganised
person more scheduled. (There are things that the Christian church can learn
from cults.) However, these things are not done because of love, but rather to
control the member.
The definition according to Dictionary.com: "A religion or religious sect
generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in
an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic
leader."
What is a cult not?
Ultimately a cult is not a healthy environment to be in. In the short term it
may seem like a nice place but cults damage people. In the long term it is
better to be out of a cult, and normally the sooner the better. When/if people
leave, they are very often burnt out or feel used and worthless. Even worse,
cults screw up people's relationships with Jesus Christ.
Usually a cult is not a bunch of people dressed in strange clothes who want
to commit suicide together (or who are tricked into doing so). There are some
infamous cults like this but most are not. Most cults appear quite ordinary on
the surface. Members wear normal clothes and want to live normal lives, and
will often be regarded as model citizens.
What is not a cult?
A small group that simply wants to worship God in their own way is not
necessarily a cult. For example, a church that wants to sing a capella (without
musical instruments) or has its main worship meeting on Saturday.
A religious or non-religious group with a charismatic leader is not
necessarily a cult (although many cults do have a charismatic leader).
A religious sect is not a cult. The definition of a sect according to
Dictionary.com: "A group of people forming a distinct unit within a larger group by
virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice. A
religious body, especially one that has separated from a larger denomination."
A false religion is not necessarily a cult. Some religions make no claims
about being Christian or compatible with Christianity. If they do not qualify on
sociological grounds (such as mind control) they are simply a false religion
(and still to be avoided).
Ratings
To help distinguish between the good and the bad, several icons are used to
rate the listings.
Danger: The group/person or belief/practice is considered dangerous due to
mind control or particularly bad doctrine. These groups (or people) have a
strong tendency to damage their members/followers.
Caution: The group/person or belief/practice has false or questionable
doctrine that to varying degrees may be directly or indirectly harmful to its
members/followers and their families. Approach or use with caution.
OK: The group/person or belief/practice is considered OK and/or helpful.
False Religion: According to Christian belief Jesus Christ is the only way
to God. All other religions fail to deal with the issue of sin, which sets us
apart from God. Only Christianity provides forgiveness of sin because of Jesus
paying the penalty that we should have paid. For more on this read the
pamphlet We All Need Our Sins Forgiven.
Neutral: The group or belief/practice is considered spiritually neutral, or
quite secular (ecological groups and companies, for example). This list mostly
does not attempt to define the pros and cons of such organisations, or their
morality.
Not Yet Rated: The group or belief/practice has not yet been assigned one of
the above ratings. This is often because not enough is presently known about
the group to be able to issue a rating.
Hot Topic: The group/person or belief/practice has recently been in the
news, has generated notable correspondence etc.
Please note that not all listings have been rated. For example, we normally
consider it inappropriate to rate people and practices of world religions, so
they will not typically get ratings.
Note that whether we give a group/person or belief/practice a rating or not,
visitors to this site are free to come to their own conclusions, and might
personally rate listings quite differently. If you think that we should be rating
the listing differently, you are welcome to tell us why you think we should
change the rating. Please see the Contact page.
************************************
Actual entry:
Anthroposophy. Cult. See Anthroposophical Society.
Anthroposophical Society. Cult. Founded by Rudolph Steiner.
************************************
(Christine) Both signaled as "danger" - no description at all for either
Christine - ULTRA Right Wing "Christian" website
Lists Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam as "False Religions"
********************************
(3) http://skepdic.com/comments/steinercom.html
************************************
(Christine) There is a listing on "Skeptics Dictionary" for Rudolf Steiner,
much of which is untrue. However, the webpage you cited above is actually a
"reader's comments" page by (guess who?) Sharon Lombard!
************************************
http://skepdic.com/comments/steinercom.html
anthroposophy, Rudolf Steiner and
Waldorf Schools
reader comments:
anthroposophy, Rudolf Steiner and
Waldorf Schools
26 Aug 2000
I just read your article on Steiner, Waldorf, and Anthroposophy. Just wanted
to quickly respond as it was very clear that you didn't really understand the
esoteric Waldorf plan. The schools are an indoctrination into the cult of
Anthroposophy. The curriculum is centered on the various occult initiates who
Steiner absorbs into his pantheon. The children are given anthroposophical
pictures and notions which will be of use in their next incarnation. The
"individualism" that they advertise is a code word for the "Anthroposophical Being", a
homogenous spirit made up of "Individual I's" that will dominate the world in
Steiner's dreamed up future regime.
In Steiner's "Universal Human", p 16-17, he claims that the Initiate cannot
have any personal ideas and views of his own, or he will never know objective
truth. He states, "The person in whom anthroposophical wisdom appears must be
completely unimportant compared to this wisdom; the person as such does not
matter at all." He also says, "The anthroposophical view of the world develops in
the most individual way, but at the same time it is the most unindividual
thing you can imagine." On p 22-23 Steiner states that those that take in
anthroposophical thoughts will have a spiritual substance that will help them
penetrate the darkness when they die, they will then recognize the people that they
worked with on earth. He discusses the deeper task of the anthroposophical
movement which is to help those that developed their "individuality" to
reincarnate and form core groups that will be scattered over the globe to rule those of
us who are not anthroposophists. In his proposed Sixth Epoch he ominously
asserts, "To put it bluntly, we can say that the earth and all it can yield will
belong to those who now cultivate their individualities. Those, however, who do
not develop their individual I will be dependent on joining a group that will
instruct them in what they should think, feel, will, and do." [24] In the
Seventh Epoch his cult will inhabit the earth in the form of the individual
anthroposophical spirit, there will be no more sex, and "man will speak forth man."
Eurythmy is taken from the magical lodge tradition of gestures and signs. It
has a secret language which Steiner lifted from the Cabbala, (via the
Rosicrucians) and the children in Waldorf are made to communicate to the spirit world.
Of course, some of the parents, (like myself at first) assume that it is a
form of dance or movement. The Waldorf "art" is part of the system of rigid
indoctrination, anthroposophical notions are copied off the board. There is no
real free expression. The pictures in the early grade depict faceless people to
help the children conform to the group. The water color exercises are occult
moral exercises to heal the children and help their astral bodies mesh with
their hereditary bodies, etc. If you examine the children's drawings, you will
find all sorts of anthroposophical notions such as gnomes in mines.
Anthroposophists believe that gnomes are real, and that you can find them in mines. (There
is a book recording Steiner's lectures on this subject.)
Thought you might like to know who the anthroposophists say Steiner was in
his previous lives: Enkidu, Kratylos, Aristotle, Schiontiolander, St. Thomas
Aquinas, Rudolf Steiner, and he is expected to return at the end of the 20th C,
in a rural, hilly place in the USA. Perhaps as a woman, most definitely as a
Waldorf student!
The curriculum is all based on alchemy, magic, astrology, and all the bizarre
and weird ideas of the occult. It is set up as a secret society, and most of
the parents go along with the program without a clue. Luckily, our family
figured out the Waldorf lies, and we removed our daughter from their absurd
program. I have spent the last year reading Steiner and books about the occult
worldview, the schools are not the progressive, liberal, artistic image that they
are very good at portraying. The myths, religions and everything taught, are
all anthroposophical selections and notions.
The experts of coded language, secrecy and hiding, are 'pulling the wool'
over many eyes. With Waldorf, you must look deeper. As written in their magazine,
"Anthroposophy Worldwide" 4/2000, p 12, " The press agent has to convey the
outer appearance of things rather than the essential core. A deep esoteric
background is necessary to make the essential core comprehensible." (Referring to
their new press agent, Ursa Krattiger who has been hired to help them further
deceive the public.)
Sincerely, Sharon Lombard. (A Freethinker out to expose wacky Waldorf.)
reply: You are not the only one who is out to expose Waldorf schools. Waldorf
critics have their own website.
(c)copyright 2000
Robert Todd Carroll Last updated 11/29/03
SkepDic.com
Search the Skeptic's Dictionary
*************************
(4) http://www.gkindia.com/therapies/anthroposophicalmedicine.htm
************************************
(Christine) I have no idea where this website is coming from. It gives no
background about its authors and seems to be a travel guide of some sort to India.
************************************
http://www.gkindia.com/
What do you prefer, as medicine?
Ayurvedic
Allopathy
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http://www.gkindia.com/therapies/anthroposophicalmedicine.htm
Anthroposophical Medicine
Anthroposophical Medicine involves an internationally organized group of
people who think that Rudolf Steiner (an Austrian physician, 1861-1925) found the
ultimate truth - the anthroposophy. Steiner said:
By anthroposophy, I mean a scientific investigation of the spiritual world
which will bring to light the weaknessess and half-truths not only of science
but also of modern mysticism. It is a method which, before attempting to
investigate the spiritual worlds, first develops psychic powers not normally used in
daily life or in current scientific research.
The Anthroposophic cult is managed from Dornach, Switzerland. They have
private universities in, at least, Switzerland and Germany. The cult has tight
rules and they are very effective in lobbying for favorable political decisions. A
good example is the current Medicine Act in the European Union.
Anthroposophic medicines are officially acknowledged as medicines in the
whole of Europe, although the cult itself is not known in all of the 15 countries.
No proof of efficacy or safety is required. Anthroposophers often present
themselves as proponents of freedom of choice in health care.
The medicines in anthroposophic medicine are chosen by means of
meditation.... Homeopathic medicines, heavy metals, etc. are used "as in ancient times."
The diagnosis of cancer, for instance, is based on "balance of forces in the
blood" as determined by crystalization by copper chloride, etc. Clairrvoyance is
the ultimate level of an anthroposopher.
In general the cult is closed and secretive, but Steiner and Waldorf schools
teach the ideas of Steiner (law of Karma and reincarnation etc.) to school
children. In many countries, anthroposophists have succeeded in getting an
official status (and state's financial support) for their schools.
Biodynamic farming is also part of their activities. Stellar constellations,
as in astrology, are taken into account when conducting farming activities
such as planting and harvesting.
An extensive review of the German anthroposophic group was published in Der
Spiegel in 1984
******************************
(5) http://www.geocities.com/mibby529/rogues.html
"American Indians Against 'Newage' Spiritual Misappropriation"
************************************
(Christine) Very vitriolic website which rants against an assortment of
people this person somehow thinks is doing a bad job by Native Americans. I have no
idea where she got the information she printed below.
Interesting, though, in her article below, how she is so dead set against
Native American & "White" intermixing! I say "her" because her "handle" is
mibby529 and I can't find any other name or identification on the website.
************************************
Rudolf Steiner (deceased)
A German gentleman who started the Anthroposophy cult in the 19th century,
Steiner is one of the most unusual types. His followers claim that Anthroposophy
is a "spiritual science." Anthroposophists hold many racialist beliefs, such
as Cayce's "root race" theory. Many of their beliefs were the prototype for
National Socialism. All of this would place them as simply another hate group,
but many co-opt American Indian spirituality for the Völk-spirit, or blood/soil
connection. Also, there is a Waldorf (Anthroposophist) school on Pine Ridge
reservation. For some reason, I can't see the locals tolerating Nazism.
http://www.geocities.com/mibby529/essay.html
Twinkies for Dummies
Okay now, if you want to hang around Indians, there are some rules. Don't be
a twinkie. You're probably wondering what a twinkie is. As you probably know,
a Twinkie is a snack made by Hostess, consisting of cake, cream filling, and
LOTS of sugar. They're the arch-nemesis of many a doctor. But when Indians talk
about a twinkie, they mean someone who's involved in the New Age movement, so
called because it's extremely sweet but has no spiritual value, just like how
Twinkies have no nutritional value.
So, you're probably wondering: "How do I know which way is right?" If you got
here through my little search-trap, you're certainly wondering that. Well, my
pretties, here's a list of legit elders that charge money:
That's right. None. Real Indians don't charge for spiritual wisdom. And we
rarely reveal our spirituality to outsiders.
Oh, I can hear your cries of discrimination through the computer. It actually
works out very well, though. Well, Indians, or Lakota at least, believe that
Wak'an T'anka gave us our way, and gave you yours. We don't try to convert
you, and as long as you don't try to convert us, your way of life is OK by us.
The problem therefore is when you claim that your beliefs are ours. Or when
you attempt to convert to, say, Lakota beliefs. Or when you mix and match
religions. Well, I've got a bombshell for you:
THERE IS NO SINGLE NATIVE AMERICAN RELIGION!!!
What I mean is that each nation has its own belief systems. In addition to,
traditionals, there are Indian Christians and agnostics. Not only that, but
there are also traditional/Christian syncretic sects such as the Native American
Church. And, since the coming of the white man, there have been nationalistic
movements such as the Ghost dance.
So, when you want to know about "the" Native American religion, please
specify.
Now onto mixing and matching. The typical New Age cocktail will include some
non-Indian beliefs, like karma, zen, reincarnation, channeling, Feng Shui,
Reiki, tarot cards, Daoism, Tantra, Western psychology, Atlantis, the Gaea
theory, extraterrestrials, astrology, numerology...Just mix and match, even if it
starts to contradict itself.
What's wrong with mixing and matching? Simple. You know how eventually,
different points of view start to contradict each other? Bingo. It causes
confusion. Such confusion wouldn't happen, if the people involved never mixed and
matched in the first place.
Thumbs down to Dances with Wolves (Christine - my emphasis - her words)
Okay, how many of you got interested in Indians after watching Dances with
Wolves? I should warn you that we don't like Dances with Wolves. Why? It started
this whole wannabe craze.
Speaking of Indian movies, why are they always about the white guy? A Man
Called Horse, Dances with Wolves, Thunder Heart, etc. Always about the white guy.
I wasn't surprised when Windtalkers portrayed the Dineh as white man's
burden.
If they're not about the white guy, the Indians are played by whites. Billy
Jack comes to mind immediately.
Bottom line: If you want to see an Indian movie, make sure the guy making the
movie's Indian. Otherwise, you end up with a lot of "sweetness and light"
crap that makes you want to vomit.
Where's the Justice?
While twinkies are doing all this sacreligious bullshit, Indian religious
freedom is regulated by the government. Until the 1978, we didn't have religious
freedom. Period. Now we have to register with the government to have it. Not
only that, but certain Christian fundamentalist orgs are trying to force us to
convert. And in a typical week, missionaries from twelve different
denominations will try to save my heathen soul.
Some anti-Indian groups attack our subsistence, saying that even allowing us
our right to culture is the same as apartheid. They even come up with clever
slogans. "Prairie niggers," I would've never thought of that. "Save a whale,
harpoon a Makah." And they get to advocate genocide at the same time. These
well-meaning-but-not-having-their-priorities-straight liberals have a good sense
of humor, not. And all the time, nuclear waste is dumped on reservations, and
the environmentalists do nothing. White privilege at its worst.
Marketing
You've heard of Lynn Andrews? Her books alone have sold more than all the
Indian-written books ever printed. And why? Because her books are more fluffy
than (say) God is Red. A real book on Indians will make the reader think, and
show that anti-Indian sentiment is still apparent, and even growing. A typical
New Age book will make the Indians white and the whites Indian.
Also, Andrews has the good ol' (white) boy network going for her, and getting
published is very difficult if you're Indian. One of the biggest issues with
New Age frauds is that they use their white privilege to sell snake oil while
real Indians can't sell a single book.
Are all twinkies white?
Home
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 22:32:26 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: Lisa's List of Cults Part Two
OK Lisa,
Let's look at the List: (continued)
*********************************
(6) http://www.update.uu.se/~fbendz/pseudo/
*********************************
(Christine) Whoops! Did this one (home page of Frederik Benz) See 1-5
*********************************
(7) http://psychicinvestigator.com/demo/Cults.htm
*********************************
http://psychicinvestigator.com/
(Christine) The home page has a big picture of Nostradamus and a clock and I
haven't figured out how to get to the page listed above from the home page.
Backing to "demo" gives a list of files, presumably the author's investigations,
but none of the file names start with anything Anthro or Steiner.
*********************************
from the files of the PSYCHIC INVESTIGATOR
copyright 2001, Tom Howell Productions
http://psychicinvestigator.com/demo/Cults.htm
Cults and Small Religions
Anthroposophical Society - Leader: Rudolf Steiner
Steiner's life was devoted to building up a complete science of the spirit,
to which he gave the name Anthroposophy. Foremost amongst his discoveries was
his direct experience of the reality of the Christ, which soon took a central
place in his whole teaching. The many books and lectures which he published set
forth the magnificent scope of his vision. From 1911 he turned also to the
arts - drama, painting, architecture, eurythmy - showing the creative forming
powers that can be drawn from spiritual vision. (Anthroposophical Webpages).
*********************************
(8) http://cultpreres.users4.50megs.com/
*********************************
Cult Prevention Resources
Welcome to the CPR's site for information on cults and sects. Here you will
soon find links to information about many cults of all types. As we have
co-authors who speak a combined total of four languages, we will eventually provide
a multi-lingual page (English, French, German, Spanish).
CPR believes in information. While it is our conviction that freedom of
religion and freedom of opinion are superior qualities of any self-respecting
democracy, and while CPR therefore does not advocate excessive government control
beyond the point of ensuring and safeguarding the basic rights of all citizens
against violations from cults and religions of all types, CPR understands that
democratic processes, including the freedoms of opinion and religion, are not
possible without factual information.
CPR feels that anybody should be free to join any group, religious,
pseudo-religious, political or of any other social type - if they wish to do so based
on correct and true information, and as long as that group respects the rights
of others, members and non-members alike. And this basically all by itself
describes CPR's criteria for deciding to inform about a group. We strongly object
to all forms of misrepresentation, manipulation, coercion, mind control,
brain washing, programming, excessive persuasion, violence, suppression of
information, kidnapping, threats, instilling of fear, smear or "black PR" campaigns
and any other treatment indicative of an insufficient respect for one's
neighbor.
CPR strives to provide critical information on such groups, focusing on
cults, sects, religious groups, totalitarian movements, new religious movements,
new age groups, etc. CPR does not at this point inform about political parties,
medical or other scientific movements, social developments and product-related
movements.
The idea is that an informed consumer will be more likely to make whatever
decision is best for him. If a person knowingly decides to trade his
independence and control over his life and finances for promised salvation of any kind,
this is his God(?)-given right. If he is however covertly tricked into making
small commitments which step by step lead to his complete social isolation
outside of and dependence on whatever group, his basic rights are being violated.
It is against this that our efforts are aimed.
It is CPR's experience that a lot of information is already available. Where
this is the case, CPR provides links to the respective sites, thereby making a
broader spectrum of views more easily accessible. (Christine's emphasis)
We will feature information on a lot of groups, such as the ones named on the
below list. This is not understood as passing judgment on these groups, but
intended to provide the reader with factual and critical information. In most
cases, a link to the official home page of the respective group will be given
as well. On the other hand, the below list is in no way complete, but focuses
on groups that we wish or are able to inform about at this point. The fact that
an activity is not listed does not mean that it is above all suspicion. Other
groups will be added onto the list, as information (and time...) will become
less inflationary at CPR.
(MY NOTE - IT IS EASY TO FIND A LINK TO THE ANTHROPOSOPHY HOME PAGE, SO WHY
ISN'T THERE ONE?)
As we are still in the process of constructing our site, not many links are
currently active. Keep checking back, as this will change weekly.
Important
We feel that in alignment with our desire to provide information, it is very
important for people to network and coordinate. Because of this, CPR will
provide a platform for anybody to announce their upcoming events.
List of Featured Information
Adventists (aka Seventh Day Adventists, SDA)
Ananda Marga (AM)
Anthroposophy
Christine's Note: (NO LINK FOR INFO)
AVATAR®
Baha'i-Movement
Boston Church of Christ
Children of God
Chinmoy
Christian Fundamentalism
Church Universal and Triumphant (CUT aka Summit Lighthouse or Summit
University)
Eckankar
Evangelicalism
Free Masons
Hare Krishna (ISKCON)
ICF - International Christian Fellowship
Islam
Jehovah's Witnesses/Watchtower Society
Landmark Education (aka "The Forum" or "EST")
Mormons (Latter Day Saints)
Opus Dei
Osho (aka Baghwan)
Radha Soami Satsangs
Rhema Bible Church
Sai Baba
Sathya Sai
School of Tomorrow
Scientology
Soka Gakkai Internationale (SGI)
Solar Templar
Tele-Evangelism
Transcendental Meditation (TM)
Unification Church (aka Moon)
Watchtower Society (see Jehovah's Witnesses)
And lastly, some general links:
Fredric Rice's Skeptic Tank is a very interesting place to get information.
It "maintains extensive archives on destructive groups, individuals, and
ideologies with special focus on religion's impact upon history as well as
religion's impact upon rights, liberties, health, and safety of the world's populace in
contemporary times."
Steve Hassan has been involved in educating the public about mind control and
destructive cults for over twenty-three years. He is a licensed Mental Health
Counselor, and holds a Masters degree in counseling psychology from Cambridge
College. He has authored the critically acclaimed book Releasing the Bonds:
Empowering People to Think for Themselves.
French legislation currently being discussed in the French government (this
document is in French, chose # 546)
The report of the German Enquete Commission in English on the server of the
Bundestag or, as an alternative for those who don't favor reading never-ending
vague documents, only the recommendations of this report, also in English.
A European page with A LOT of links on many groups. A lot of stuff is in
Dutch, German or Swedish, but there is also information in English. Check it out,
it's interesting!
For an input on tis site, additional information, links that you would like
to have added, or just to say hello, mail CPR at cpreres yahoo.com
*********************************
(9) http://www.whyaretheydead.net/krasel/books/evans/
*********************************
(Christine) This page is the index page of the book below, specifically
against Scientology.
*********************************
Dr. Christopher Evans - Cults of Unreason
HTML'ized by Alan Barclay
Table Of Contents
Contents:
INTRODUCTION:
End flaps and title page
Introduction
/krasel/books/evans/begin.html
I THE SCIENCE FICTION RELIGION
In the Beginning...
Lives Past, Lives Remembered
Grow New Teeth
Thought Has Mass
The Master of Saint Hill
Brush with Authority
All at Sea
Ethics and Uniforms
From Psychotherapy to Religion
II THE SAVIOURS FROM THE SKIES
The Coming of the Saucers
Jesus is Alive and Well and Living on Venus
Myths in the Skies
III BLACK BOXES
The Pioneers
More Mental Marvels
IV THE MYSTIC EAST (OR THEREABOUTS)
Many Masters
Divers Holy Monks
Yesterday and Tomorrow
INDEX
To Library of books on Scientology
Dr. Christopher Evans - Cults of Unreason
Index
Abrahms, Dr Albert, 181-3, 191, 206 pioneers
Adamski, George, 142, 146-7 pioneers
Aetherius Speaks to Earth, 154 pioneers
Aetherius Society, 150-1, 153- 7, 159, 160-1, 162, 167, 179, 212 pioneers
All About Radiation, 21 begin
All and Everything, 218-20 begin
Analog, 201 page
Anderson, Kevin, 82 S7
Anderson Report, 82-4, 103 S7
Angell, H. R. `Wing', 55-6 S4
Anthroposophy, 226 SH (Christine's emphasis)
Apollo (yacht), 117 page
Arnold, Kenneth, 140 page
Astounding Science Fiction, 30-2, 201 begin
Atlantean Society, 248-9 SI
Atlantean, The, 248-9, 252 SI
Atlantis, 245, 246, 247-9 251 SH
Auditor, The, 89, 99, 101, 106, 109, 114-15, 125n., 126, 131 S7
Avon River (trawler), 93, 94-6 S7
Bartok, Eva, 230 0
Basille, Rev. Frank R., 170-1 1
Beatles, 227, 233 1
Benitez, William, 124-5 1
Bennett, J. G., 217-18, 220, 221, 222, 223, 228, 229, 230, 232 1
Besant, Annie, 225, 226, 227 1
Bianca, Sonia, 49, 56, 72 1
`Black boxes', 180-9, 195-200. See also Feedback Cult; Orgone Accumulator 1
Blavatsky, Helena, 145, 225, 226 1
Bouchier, Chili, 248 0
Brown, Gertrude, 127 0
Brubeck, Dave, 48 0
Burgess, Clifford, 239 0
Callaghan, James, 90 90
Cameron, Basil, 231 231
Campbell Jnr., John, 31-2, 37, 38, 58, 201 31
Cave of the Ancients, The, 244 244
Certainty, 21, 25, 103-5 2
Chapdelaine, Perry, 42-3, 49-51 42
Character Analysis, 207 207
Character of Scientology, The, 81, 132 81
Chariots of the Gods?, 146 146
Christian Science, 12, 57 57
Church's Fellowship for Psyical Research, 13 13
`Church of the Final Judgement, The' - see 'Process, The' 1
Churcher, Stanley, 96, 97 96
`Clear', the state of being, 39- 40, 41, 42, 43, 110, 111-12; searches for
the first, 48-56, 88-9; and preclears, 62-63 39
Coming of the Guardians, The, 168 168
Condon Report, 144, 145 144
Cosmic Voice, 154, 155, 158, 161-2, 163, 164, 252 154
`Daily Express', 199 199
Daily Mail, 108-9, 215 108
Daily Mirror, 94-5 94
Daily Telegraph, 104, 218 104
Daniken, Erich von, 146 146
Davies, Mr Justice Arthurian, 198-9 198
Day, Langston, 194-5 194
de la Warr, George, 184-9, 191, 193, 194, 195-200, 201, 206 184
de la Warr, Mrs, 200 200
Delawarr box, 187-9, 195-200 187
Dewan, Dr Edmund, 203 203
Diana (yacht), 93 93
Dianetic Research Centres, 38 388
Dianetic Research Foundation, 59 59
Dianetics, 20, 31-7, 38-9, 75- 6, 97, 116, 117; become, Scientology, 43, 20
Dianetics: Axioms, 24, 27 24
Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health, 18, 29, 33, 39, 18
Doctor from Lhasa, 239, 242-4 239
Doctor Looks at Dianetics, A, 58 58
Dramatic Universe, The, 229 229
Eddy, Mary Baker, 12 12
Edwards, Frank, 147 147
Einstein, Albert, 79, 195, 197 79
Eisenbud, Dr Jules, 190 190
E-meters, 12, 61-2, 63-6, 73, 95, 96, 97, 111, 117, 129, 179-80, 203 12
Empire News, 154-5 154
Endfield, Cy, 49 49
Evening Argus (Sussex), 19, 74 19
Excalibur, 61 61
`Fads and FALLACIES IN THE NAME OF SCIENCE', 67, 207 67
Feedback Cult, 202-6 202
Filson, Vic, 104 104
Flying Saucer Conspiracy, The, 142 142
flying saucers, 137, 154, 165-6, 168, 171-5, 251; and cults, 11, 137-49,
137
Flying Saucers; a Modern Myth of Things Seen in the Skies, 165, 165
Flying Saucers and the Straight-line Mystery, 172 172
Flying Saucers have Landed, 142-7, 168 142
Food and Drug Administration (US), 79, 80-2, 180, 207, 208 79
Foster, Sir John, 131 131
Founding Church of Scientology, The, 77 77
Fourth Way, The, 216 216
Freedom, 133 133
Freud, Sigmund, 35, 103, 207 35
Function of the Orgasm, The, 207 207
Gaiman, David, 91, 92, 101, 125 91
Galbally, J. W., 82 82
Gandalf's Garden, 250, 251-2 250
Gardner, Martin, 67, 207 67
Glastonbury Tor, 172, 249- 50; and zodiac, 250 172
Goddard, Air Marshal Sir Victor, 198-9 198
Great Pyramid in Fact and Theory, The, 143 143
Green, Gabriel, 145, 148 145
Grimstone, Mary Anne, 118-19 118
Grimstone, Robert de, 118-19, 122 118
Grubb, Margaret Louise, 26, 59 26
Guide to Clinical Condition, 188 195, 214-24, 225, 228, 230, 231, 188
Gurdjieff, George Ivanovich, 195, 214-24, 225, 228, 230, 231, 246 195
Gurdjieff Foundation, 223 223
Hamblett, Charles, 73 73
Hare Krishna, 232-4 232
History of Man, 42, 43-7 42
Holy Grail, 173, 249-50 173
Horden, Peter, 88, 89 88
Horner, Jack, 54-5, 56, 118 54
Hoskins, Cyril - see Rampa, Tuesday Lobsang 1
Howes, Ron, 51-4, 56, 72 51
Hubbard, Alexis, 27 27
Hubbard Dianetic Foundation, 59-60, 61 59
Hubbard Exploration Company, 93 93
Hubbard, Katherine May, 26 26
Hubbard, Lafayette Ronald, 17, 18-29, 31-7, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 46,
48, 49-50, 51, 53, 54, 56, 57-8, 59-61, 63, 66-7, 68-71, 72-9, 83, 84-7, 89,
89-92, 93, 94, 95, 96-7, 98, 99, 101, 102, 103-6, 107, 108-9, 111, 113-14 17
115,116-18, 123, 127, 130, 131,132, 133, 134, 189, 195, 201, 214 1
Hubbard, Mary Sue, 27, 71, 87, 97, 117 27
Hubbard, `Nibs', 19, 26, 29, 59, 117, 123 19
Humphreys, Christmas, 198 198
Institute for the Harmonious Development of Man, 216, 222 216
International Times (It), 133, 252 133
Irwin, John, 234-5 234
JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES, 130 Jesus Christ, 13, 122, 167, 252; and the claims of
the Aetherius Society, 154-5, 158, 162, 167 130
Jesus Christ, 13, 122, 167, 252; and the claims of the Aetherius Society,
154-5, 158, 162, 167 13
Jones, Capt. John, 95-6 95
Jung, Carl Gustav, 11, 139, 165-7, 247 139
KAWIN-TOOMIN, DR MARJORIE, 203-4 203
Kember, Mrs, 89 89
Kennedy, John F., 28, 78, 79 28
Keyhoe, Donald, 142 142
King, Cecil J., 92 92
King, George, 150-7, 158, 159, 160-1, 162, 163, 164, 167 150
Kingsland, W., 143 143
Knight, Damon, 117 117
Krishnamurti, Jiddu, 226, 227 226
LARVARON, PROF. H., 192 192
Lawrence, John, 126 126
Lee, Gloria, 148 148
Lemuria, 245, 246 245
Leslie, Desmond, 142, 143-6, 168 142
Let's Face the Facts about Flying Saucers, 145 145
Ley Hunter, The, 173 173
Lilliput, 72-4 72
Living with the Lama, 244 244
London Scientology Organization, 70-1 70
Lord of the Rings, The, 250 250
MCMASTER, JOHN, 88, 89, 92, 132 88
Maharishi Yogi, 12, 227 12
Mailer, Norman, 206 206
Mass Psychology of Fascism, The, 207 207
Mathison, Volney, 63, 66 63
Meade, Layne, 168 168
Mesmer, Franz Anton, 181 181
Michel, Aime, 171-2 171
Mind and Matter, 197, 199 197
Mindbenders, The, 105 105
Murray, Jacqueline, 248 248
Musack, Bob, 126 126
My Visit to Venus, 244-5 244
myths, continued potency of, 246-53 246
`NEW MODEL OF THE UNIVERSE, A', 216 216
New Republic, 38 38 0
New Worlds Beyond the Atom, 194-5, 196 194 1
New York Times, 59 59 0
Northrup, Sarah, 27, 59, 123 27 1
`OBSERVER, THE', 238 238 0
Org Book, The, 95, 96 95 1
Orgone Accumulator, 207 207 0
Orgs, 98-100, 105-6, 117. See also Sea Orgs 98 1
Ouspensky, Peter, 215-16, 220, 215 1
Outsider, The, 223 223 0
`PEOPLE, THE', 96-7, 104, 119 96
Phillips, Catherine, 198 198
Pitt, John, 239-40 239
Prabhupad, Swami, 232, 238 232
Probert, Mark, 168 168
Proceedings of the College of Universal Wisdom, 148 148
`Process, The', 118-23 118
Psychic News, 155, 162, 167, 201, 239 155
Purcell, Don, 38, 39, 58, 59- 60, 61 38
RAMPA, TUESDAY LOBSANG, 12, 234-45, 246, 251 12
Reich, Wilhelm, 207-8 207
Religion, and vacuum left by decline in its authority, 7, 9-10, 11, 137-8,
166, 212, 247, 252-3 7
Religion and the Rebel, 223 223
Richards, Bobby, 50 50
Robertson, Rev. Keith, 164 164
Robinson, Kenneth, 88, 89, 90, 131, 133 88
Ron's Journal, 70 70
Royal Scotsman (ferry boat), 93-4, 96-7 93
Ruppelt Capt. Ed., 141 141
`SAUCERS SPEAK, THE', 168 168
Schuman, Prof. F. L., 38, 59 38
Scientology, 68 68
Scientology 8-8008, 20 20
Scientology Ethics Department, 98-9, 107 98
Scientology, Part I passim, 137, 179, 247, 252 137
Sea Orgs, 23, 93-102, 107 23
Serios, Ted, 190-1 190
Shulman, Ronald, 124, 125 124
Shuttlewood, Arthur, 173-4 173
Sinclair, Upton, 183 183
Sky People, The, 171 171
Smith, Geoffrey Johnson, 88, 89, 124 88
Snellgrove, Dr D. L., 88, 89, 124 88
Spearman-Cook, Gladys, 167 167
Spiritualism, 12, 167-8 12
Steiner, Rudolf, 226 226 (Christine's emphasis)
Subud, 227-32, 246-7, 251 227
Subuh, Pak, 228, 229-31 228
Sudrow, Lyle, 89 89
Sunday Mirror, 93-4 93
Sunday Telegraph, 86 86
THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY, 225, 226, 227 225
Theosophy, 12, 225-6, 227 12
`Thetans', 40-2, 43, 44, 46-7, 57, 60, 62, 111, 127; and `Operating Thetan',
** 40
Third Eye, The, 238-9 238
Thomas, Paul, 146 146
Thompson, Cdr `Snake', 20, 69 20
thought photography, 189-91, 193-4, 206 189
Times, The, 22-3, 145, 200 22
Times Literary Supplement, The , 238 238
Tolkien, J. R. R., 250-1 250
Toomin Alpha Pacer, 204-6 204
Trench, B. le Poer, 146, 171 146
UFOLOGY - see FLYING SAUCERS S1
`unidentified flying objects' (UFOs) - see flying saucers begin
US Air Force, investigates UFOs, 140-2. See also Condon Report 140
Universe Makers, The, 58 58
Van Tassel, George, 147-8 147
Van Vogt, A E., 38, 49, 58, 118 38
Venture with Ideas, 195
Venus, and the Aetherius Society, 152, 154, 155; and Dr Rampa, 244-5, 246
152
Vosper, Cyril, 101, 105 101
Walker, Dr Kenneth, 195-6, 197, 198, 223 195
Warburg, Frederick, 234, 235, 237, 240, 241 234
Warminster Mystery, The, 173, 174 173
Warning from Flying Friends, 174 174
With Mystics and Magicians in Tibet, 235 235
Witness, 217, 231 217
World of Teed Serios, The, 190 190
Yoga, 212-14 212
You-Forever, 244 244
Return to Introduction
(Christine) Here's page 226
The Mystic East (or Thereabouts) and practice of yoga. Its aims were
threefold: (1) to form a Universal Brotherhood of man with no racial barriers; (2) to
further the study of comparative religion; and (3) to investigate the
supposedly paranormal faculties of man such as telepathy and clairvoyance, which were
believed in with great intensity in the nineteenth century.
In its early days, thanks partly to the magnetic and well-publicized figure
of Madame Blavatsky, it attracted a good deal of attention from the
intellectual middle and upper classes and drew into its ranks, if only briefly, a number
of individuals of real creative ability such as the scientist and philosopher,
Rudolf Steiner. (Christine's emphasis) The trouble with the Theosophical
Society was that it was run by two very self-willed women and it nearly foundered
in its early years in legal actions and wrangles over its leadership. These
became particularly acute on the death of Madame Blavatsky in 1891, though Mrs
Besant finally emerged triumphant. Just a year after she had been elected
president she launched the Society on an unexpected course which caused a gigantic
rift in the movement, from which it has never really recovered. This was the
strange episode concerning the elevation of a young Brahmin child, Jiddu
Krishnamurti, into the role of a new Messiah - a dramatic gesture which implied that
Christ had returned to earth, but clothed in the body of an Indian child.
So enraged were Society members that Mrs Besant had dared to discover
Christ's successor without their permission, that the movement broke apart. Amongst
the most notable defectors was the interesting figure of Rudolf Steiner who
departed for Europe and in 1912 set up his own occult movement, Anthroposophy.
Steiner, who was enormously influenced by the writings of Goethe, caused a vast
building of bizarre but powerful architectural merit, the Goethanum, to be
erected in Switzerland and this is still the headquarters of his movement's
activities. Anthroposophy has gradually emerged as the more significant philosophy
of the two, and has attracted to its embraces a number of artists and poets of
magnitude, including the stylish modern painter, Kandinsky. Though operating
on vague and scatty ideas about the healing qualities of coloured rays of
light, followers of Steiner have had notable successes in schools devoted to the
care of backward or handicapped children. How much of this success is due to
the `colour therapy' and how much to the care and devotion with which the
children are taught is a matter for argument, but it is enough to say that the
results are beneficial and that is that.
(Christine's emphasis)
******************************
(10) http://www.csj.org/pubs_co/guestcolumn/newrelmovaagaard.htm
AFF resources about psychological manipulation, cult groups, sects, and new
religious movements.
Cult Observer New Religious Movements
A Review of Press Reports on Cultism and Unethical Social Influence
The Cult Observer: Guest Columns
Prof. Aagaard on New Religious Movements
by Johannes Aagaard
What are labeled cults in the USA are normally called new religious movements
(NRMs) in Europe. New Age should be added to these concepts, indicating the
wider and more pervasive, but also more subtle, religiosity which is generally
the basis of new religious movements. Although these phenomena have roots in
past generations, the "age" of New Age takes it back to the last third of the
last century. The World's Parliament of Religions in Chicago in 1893 can be
taken as the real beginning of the worldwide expansion of Neo-Hinduism
(Vivekananda), Neo-Buddhism (Anagarika), and Theosophy (Annie Besant). From 1893 to this
day, these three movements have grown as part of the same New Age Tree, the
Tree of Knowledge, or Gnosis. Theosophy in various forms, including
Anthroposophy, (Christine's emphasis) the Wisdom of Martinus, Alice Bailey, Elizabeth
Clare Prophet, Ananda Tara Shan (the Rosegarden), Benjamin Creme, etc., seems to
be the common denominator of most of the New Age groupings. The theosophical
paradigm seems to constitute in some way a synthesis of what might
superficially be called East-West spirituality.
The Light from the East Comes from the West
The new paradigm-one could call it the Pacific paradigm- is called "the Light
from the East," but in fact it most often comes from the West. It came over
the Pacific Ocean to the west coast of the USA, crossed that country, continued
across the Atlantic, included Western Europe, and is now entering the
formerly Communist world as a sure winner.
The capitalist market system quickly determined the financial prospects of
this new paradigm. Gurus and masters were caught up in the market mechanisms and
transformed into managers and multinational leaders. New technological and
streamlined pseudo-religions were created and their supermen came to lead
organizations which are Mafia-likeinstruments of manipulation.
Very few of the new expressions of synthetic spirituality survived this
capitalist exploitation, and even fewer wanted to. Youth were and are caught up in
the NRM invasion, and very large segments of Western culture, already
influenced by the New Age paradigm, are ready to sell out their Christian heritage.
Parent Organizations' Approach
The immediate and understandable reaction against the new paradigm and its
organizational and financial exploitation came from the parents of young people
caught up in the "stormy weather" of "Cults" (the term common in the US),
"Jugend-religionen" (in Gemany), and New Religious Movements (the term generally
used elsewhere).
It is a well-known fact that in many countries parents and relatives of
people who have joined new religious movements have come together to create
organizations to support one another and to counter the influence of what they call
"cults." Children of parents who have become cult members also participate.
These organizations understandably do not care much for subtleties and
differentiations when they approach the NRMs. They generally take a very negative
attitude toward research about NRMs because researchers do not stand up
generally against the cults but rather set the "truth question" aside. The parents'
organizations, however, also tend to set the truth question aside, for they
consider the cults as solely exploitalive and without any genuine religious
characteristics. To ask the truth question in relation to the NRMs would, for the
parents' groups, be as phony as asking the truth question in relation to the
Mafia.
(Christine's emphasis)
This means that the parents take no stand of their own. They do not operate
as Christian bodies and do not deal positively with religion as a common
option. Individual members are often Christians, especially the leaders (but not
always). There seems to be a tendency for parents against cults also to be
parents against Christianity. But it is impossible to generalize on this point.
The Scholars' Approach
Research on NRMs has become a force in itself. Sociology of religion,
psychology of religion, history of religion, etc., all share in a general attempt to
collect data and establish documentation to clarify, analyze, and understand
the NRMs as contemporary expressions of the religious search of mankind. In
this effort there is a general tendency to set the "truth question" aside because
taking a stand on the truthfulness and the reliability of NRMs would impair
the "objectivity" and "neutrality" of scholarly projects.
This scholarly detachment is sometimes taken to the extreme that even value
statements must be forsaken. For a scholar, Catholicism has the same value as
Scientology, Quakerism, or the Ananda Marga. It is possible to ask, however,
whether there is a tendency to fall into a rather naive and positivistic
methodology in this approach. Is such neutrality and objectivity anything but a
dream? Indeed, this dream sometimes turns into a nightmare when the "neutral" and
"objective" scholar turns against the parents' organizations and attacks them
for taking a stand against the cults. The simple fact of being against cults
and working in anti-cult organizations seems to be objectionable when seen by
the "neutral" and "objective" scholar. In fact, this scholar seems toplay the
role of anti-anti-cult agent. But one cannot uphold neutrality by doubling one'
s anti-attitude. Minus against minus means a plus, and that is a stand. I
believe that the anti-anti-cult movement is methodologically in deep trouble, seen
from scholarly and heuristic viewpoints as well as from social and political
perspectives. Science for science' s sake is really old hat!
(Christine's emphasis)
Johannes Aagaard, a professor at the Institute of Missiology and Ecumenical
Theology, Faculty of Theology, Aarhus University (Denmark), is Converter of the
Dialog Center International, a Christian research organization that collects
and disseminates information on cults and new religious movements. His remarks
here are a transcription of a presentation he made during a recent visit to
the U.S.
Got any more?
Christine Natale
March 13, 2004
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 23:05:58 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: Eating Their Words
Christine,
I think Waldorf promoters should sit down and have a good, hard and HONEST
look at what *they* spend their time promoting.
As to your second sentence, well Christine, are you saying that even if some
children and families have been hurt by Waldorf that it doesn't count
somehow, because the people who hurt them (the teachers and those associated
with the schools who don't tell the truth) "didn't mean to?"
Hogwash.
Well-meaning people who believe in their own causes have, throughout
history, inflicted misery and destruction on people, and many have justified
it because their intentions were "good."
You know, when you came on this list, you gave me hope. You made me believe
that there were some people involved in Waldorf schools who were willing to
be honest, and to admit that great improvements could be made in the
direction of making sure that parents enrolling their children understood
that Waldorf offers an Anthroposophical education and what that means. Your
dialogue with Walden about compiling a FAQs list was heartening.
Now you seem more concerned about facing down people who consider Waldorf
cult like than you are about the real problem, which is that Waldorf
continues to promote itself as non religious when it is.
Lisa
) From: Christine Natale (Golden3000997 cs.com)
) Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 17:57:59 EST
) To: anthroposophy_tomorrow yahoogroups.com, waldorf-critics topica.com
) Subject: Eating Their Words
)
)
) I think that Waldorf (& Anthroposophy) critics should sit down and have a
) good hard look at who they should really be spending their time working
) against.
)
) How about putting people's words in the context of their intentions and their
) actions?
)
) Christine - end of editorializing
) *****************************************
)
) Subj: [earthchanges] Eating Their Words
) Date: 3/13/2004 1:14:14 PM Eastern Standard Time
) From: atlantisup aol.com
) Reply-to: (A HREF="mailto:earthchanges yahoogroups.com")
) earthchanges yahoogroups.com(/A)
) To: earthchanges yahoogroups.com
)
) Eating Their Words
)
) William Rivers Pitt is a New York Times best-selling author of two books, War
) On Iraq (Context Books) and The Greatest Sedition is Silence (Pluto Press).
) His book Our Flag, Too: The Paradox of Patriotism will be available in August
) from Context Books.
)
) "I'm a firm believer in feeding people their own words back to them,
) when it's appropriate."
) -Trent Lott
)
) As we hurtle headlong into the silly season, a high colonic for the mind is
) in order. There is going to be a lot of back-and-forth between the candidates
) regarding who said what and when. Feast, in that context, upon this small
) collection:
)
) "Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to
) explain
) to us what the exit strategy is."
)
) - George W. Bush, discussing Kosovo, Houston Chronicle, 04-09-99
)
) "I said on my program, if, if the Americans go in and overthrow Saddam
) Hussein and it's clean, he has nothing, I will apologize to the nation, and I
) will
) not trust the Bush administration again."
)
) - Bill O'Reilly, on ABC's Good Morning America, 03-18-03
)
) "I tell people don't kill all the liberals. Leave enough so we can have
) two
) on every campusliving fossilsso we will never forget what these people
) stood
) for."
)
) - Rush Limbaugh, Denver Post, 12-29-95
)
) "If the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual gay sex
) within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to
) polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery. You
) have the
) right to anything. All of those things are antithetical to a healthy, stable,
) traditional family and that's sort of where we are in today's world,
) unfortunately. It all comes from, I would argue, the right to privacy that
) doesn't
) exist, in my opinion, in the United States Constitution."
)
) - Sen. Rick Santorum (R-Pa.), Associated Press, 04-22-03
)
) "I would warn Orlando that you're right in the way of some serious
) hurricanes, and I don't think I'd be waving those flags in God's face if I
) were you.
) This is not a message of hate; this is a message of redemption. But a
) condition
) like this will bring about the destruction of your nation. It'll bring about
) terrorist bombs; it'll bring earthquakes, tornadoes and possibly a
) meteor."
)
) - Pat Robertson, speaking of organizers putting rainbow flags up around
) Orlando to support sexual diversity, The Washington Post, 06-10-98. For the
) record, Orlando remains undestroyed by meteors.
)
) "Environmentalists are a socialist group of individuals that are the
) tool of
) the Democrat Party. I'm proud to say that they are my enemy. They are not
) Americans, never have been Americans, never will be Americans."
)
) - Rep. Don Young (R-Alaska), Alaska Public Radio, 08-19-96
)
) "When you strip it all away, Jerry Garcia destroyed his life on drugs.
) And
) yet he's being honored, like some godlike figure. Our priorities are out of
) whack, folks."
)
) - Rush (currently under investigation for drug use) Limbaugh, on the
) death of Jerry Garcia, 08-20-95.
)
) "I don't understand how poor people think."
)
) - George W. Bush, confiding in the Rev. Jim Wallis, The New York Times,
) 08-26-03
)
) "Get rid of the guy. Impeach him, censure him, assassinate him."
)
) - Rep. James Hansen (R-Utah), talking about President Clinton, as
) reported by journalist Steve Miner of KSUB radio who overheard his
) conversation,
) 11-01-98
)
) "We're going to keep building the party until we're hunting Democrats
) with
) dogs."
)
) - Sen. Phil Gramm (R-Texas), Mother Jones, 08-95
)
) "My only regret with Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to The New York
) Times
) building."
)
) - Ann Coulter, The New York Observer, 08-26-02
)
) "Homosexuals want to come into churches and disrupt church services and
) throw
) blood all around and try to give people AIDS and spit in the face of
) ministers."
)
) - Pat Robertson again, The 700 Club, 01-18-95
)
) "And there is, I am certain, among the Iraqi people a respect for the
) care
) and the precision that went into the bombing campaign."
)
) - Donald Rumsfeld, defenselink.mil, 04-09-03
)
) "Emotional appeals about working families trying to get by on $4.25 an
) hour
) are hard to resist. Fortunately, such families do not exist."
)
) - Rep. Tom DeLay (R-Texas), House Majority Whip, during a debate on
) increasing the minimum wage, Congressional Record, H3706, 04-23-96
)
) "Chelsea is a Clinton. She bears the taint; and though not prosecutable
) in
) law, in custom and nature the taint cannot be ignored. All the great
) despotisms
) of the pastI'm not arguing for despotism as a principle, but they sure knew
) how to deal with potential troublerecognized that the families of
) objectionable citizens were a continuing threat. In Stalin's penal code it
) was a crime to
) be the wife or child of an 'enemy of the people.' The Nazis used the same
) principle, which they called Sippenhaft, 'clan liability.' In Imperial China,
) enemies of the state were punished 'to the ninth degree': that is, everyone
) in the
) offender's own generation would be killed and everyone related via four
) generations up, to the great-great-grandparents, and four generations down,
) to the
) great-great-grandchildren, would also be killed."
)
) - John Derbyshire, National Review, 02-15-01
)
) "I know this is painful for the ladies to hear, but if you get married,
) you
) have accepted the headship of a man, your husband. Christ is the head of the
) household and the husband is the head of the wife, and that's the way it is,
) period."
)
) - Pat Robertson again, The 700 Club, 01-08-92
)
) "Probably nothing."
)
) - Jeb Bush, during his losing 1994 bid for Florida Governor, when asked
) what he would do for black people, quoted by Salon on 10-05-02
)
) "The homosexual blitzkrieg has been better planned and executed than
) Hitler's."
)
) - Rep. William Dannemeyer (R-Calif.), The New Republic, 08-01-94
)
) "When lawlessness is abroad in the land, the same thing will happen here
) that
) happened in Nazi Germany. Many of those people involved in Adolph Hitler were
) Satanists. Many of them were homosexuals. The two things seem to go
) together."
)
) - Pat Robertson again, The 700 Club, 01-21-93
)
) "Why is this man in the White House? The majority of Americans did not
) vote
) for him. Why is he there? And I tell you this morning that he's in the White
) House because God put him there for a time such as this."
)
) - Lt. General William G. Boykin, Deputy Undersecretary of Defense, The
) New York Times, 10-17-03
)
) "We need to execute people like John Walker in order to physically
) intimidate
) liberals, by making them realize that they can be killed, too. Otherwise,
) they will turn out to be outright traitors."
)
) - Ann Coulter, at the Conservative Political Action Conference, 02-26-02
)
) "I don't want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the
) size
) where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub."
)
) - Grover Norquist, President of Americans for Tax Reform, NPR Morning
) Edition, 05-25-01
)
) "I don't agree that you need an enormous number of American troops.
) Saddam's
) army is down to one-third than it was before, and I think it would be a
) cakewalk."
)
) - Kenneth Adelman, Defense Policy Board, to Wolf Blitzer on CNN,
) 12-06-01
)
) "The fact of the matter is that this (increased American casualties) is
) a
) sign of the success of our operation, not its failure."
)
) - Ralph Reed, GOP strategist, on MSNBC's program 'Hardball,' 10-28-03
)
) "There are some who feel that, you know, the conditions are such that
) they
) can attack us there. My answer is, bring 'em on. We have the force necessary
) to
) deal with the situation."
)
) - George W. Bush, The Chicago Tribune, 07-03-03
)
) "The truth is that for reasons that have a lot to do with the U.S.
) government
) bureaucracy, we settled on the one issue that everyone could agree on, which
) was weapons of mass destruction as the core reason."
)
) - Paul Wolfowitz, quoted by Tim Russert on 'Meet The Press, NBC,
) 06-01-03
)
) "Quit looking at the symbols. Get out and get a job. Quit shooting each
) other. Quit having illegitimate babies."
)
) - State Rep. John Graham Altman (R-SC), addressing African-American
) concerns about the 'symbol' of the Confederate Flag, The New York Times,
) 01-24-97
)
) "Two things made this country great: White men & Christianity. The
) degree
) these two have diminished is in direct proportion to the corruption and fall
) of
) the nation. Every problem that has arisen (sic) can be directly traced back
) to
) our departure from God's Law and the disenfranchisement of White men."
)
) - State Rep. Don Davis (R-NC), e-mailed to every member of the North
) Carolina House and Senate, reported by The Fayetteville Observer, 08-22-01
)
) "NOW is saying that in order to be a woman, you've got to be a
) lesbian."
)
) - Pat Robertson again, The 700 Club, 12-03-97
)
) "My biggest fear is going to be going to the funeral of some young Iowa
) man
) or woman who dies in this conflict and having their mother or father come up
) to
) me and ask whether or not their son or daughter died for America, or died to
) save Bill Clinton's presidency. I don't know what I would say to those
) grieving parents. For that reason I believe the President must resign
) immediately."
)
) - Rep. Jim Nussle (R-IA), Congressional Record, H11963, 12-18-98
)
) "Why should we hear about body bags and deaths and how many, what day
) it's
) gonna happen? It's not relevant. So why should I waste my beautiful mind on
) something like that?"
)
) - Barbara Bush, said on 'Good Morning America' the day before the Iraq
) war started, The New York Times, 01-13-03
)
) "I'm the commandersee, I don't need to explainI don't need to explain
) why
) I say things. That's the interesting thing about being the President. Maybe
) somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like
) I
) owe anybody an explanation."
)
) - George W. Bush, Washington Post, 11-19-02
)
)
) These quotes, and about a thousand others equally as preposterous, can be
) found in a new book by Bruce Miller and Diana Maio titled Take Them At Their
) Words. The next time our valiant conservative leadership bemoans the
) "corruption
) and fall of the nation," remember that, by and large, these bemoaners
) are the
) clowns who have been running the circus for the last several years.
)
) A few are also up for re-election in 2004. Bear that in mind.
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New
) threads are always welcome.
)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 23:06:49 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: Open or Closed Case
Please refrain from posting silly aphorisms.
Sometimes, people's minds are so open that anything can crawl in and take up
residence.
) From: Christine Natale (Golden3000997 cs.com)
) Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 18:03:07 EST
) To: anthroposophy_tomorrow yahoogroups.com, waldorf-critics topica.com
) Subject: Open or Closed Case
)
) Minds are like parachutes; they only function when open. - Sir James Dewar
)
) A closed mind is a good thing to lose.
)
) Some minds are like concrete, thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
) ~mrantho
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New
) threads are always welcome.
)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 23:10:15 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: re: Lisa's list of cults
Christine,
I fail to see what point you are making by taking one by one the list of
links I offered and telling us what each contains.
My original purpose in posting the links was to show that if an ordinary
person Googled the words "cult" and "Anthroposophy," a number of reference
points came up.
I did not Google "Scientology" or "Jehovah's Witnesses" or any of the other
groups that might also be listed.
I was trying to show that "Anthroposophy" is one of the religious groups
listed in various websites and pages about cults and cult like sects.
What is your point?
Lisa
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 23:31:50 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: Re: Lisa's list of cults
Lisa,
I really shouldn't have to explain this, but I was trying to show that it was
a pretty mindless "exercise" on your part to attempt to justify the word
"cult" in relationship to "Anthroposophy" by saying, "See, when I search for cult
and Anthroposophy on the web I get lots of links!" Thereby inferring that
Anthroposophy and cult are linked in definition and relationship.
I was pointing out that if any thinking person were to follow the ten links
you offered, he or she would quickly realize that most connections made in
those links were influenced by PLANS propaganda, the work of extremists or even,
ironically, complimentary to Steiner, such as the reference in Dr. Evan's book.
At no site you referenced is there a clear and objective correlation made
between Rudolf Steiner and / or Anthroposophy and any widely accepted definition
of the use of the word "cult" in any derogatory meaning.
Do you have any in which such a correlation is actually made?
Christine
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 23:36:48 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: Re: Open or Closed Case
Speaking from experience?
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1291
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Lisa's list of cults
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: Open or Closed Case
By momof2gals mindspring.com
link doesn't work
By feetapparel hotmail.com
van der Waals and Steiner
By feetapparel hotmail.com
Just the facts...
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: van der Waals and Steiner
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: van der Waals and Steiner
By feetapparel hotmail.com
Races Up and Down
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
article in sunday telegraph UK
By simonetchell f2s.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 12:17:34 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: Lisa's list of cults
The correlation was made by the fact that when I linked two words --
"Anthroposophy" and "cult" -- up came a half dozen (well, more!) links.
*That* was the point, Christine.
The point was that it is not just a few people here who link the words
"Anthroposophy/Waldorf" and "cult." It is many other groups and
organizations, too.
Lisa
) From: Christine Natale (Golden3000997 cs.com)
) Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 23:31:50 EST
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com, anthroposophy_tomorrow yahoogroups.com
) Subject: Re: Lisa's list of cults
)
) Lisa,
)
) I really shouldn't have to explain this, but I was trying to show that it was
) a pretty mindless "exercise" on your part to attempt to justify the word
) "cult" in relationship to "Anthroposophy" by saying, "See, when I search for
) cult
) and Anthroposophy on the web I get lots of links!" Thereby inferring that
) Anthroposophy and cult are linked in definition and relationship.
)
) I was pointing out that if any thinking person were to follow the ten links
) you offered, he or she would quickly realize that most connections made in
) those links were influenced by PLANS propaganda, the work of extremists or
) even,
) ironically, complimentary to Steiner, such as the reference in Dr. Evan's
) book.
)
) At no site you referenced is there a clear and objective correlation made
) between Rudolf Steiner and / or Anthroposophy and any widely accepted
) definition
) of the use of the word "cult" in any derogatory meaning.
)
) Do you have any in which such a correlation is actually made?
)
) Christine
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New
) threads are always welcome.
)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 12:28:27 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: Open or Closed Case
Yes, I am. I was once so open minded that I actually believed that Waldorf
schools are what their promoters say they are: arts-based, progressive,
multicultural, non religious schools! I believed the Waldorf people when
they told me -- with big, sincere eyes and seemingly kind, pleasant smiles
-- that Waldorf schools cherished each child's individuality, and nurtured
each child's imagination. I believed when they told me, as well, that
thought children would not be pushed academically and would get a slower
start than their non-Waldorf counterparts, later on, those children would
"soar ahead."
The reality we encountered was quite a bit different from those promises and
assurances. Instead of an environment that welcomed diversity, creativity
and individuality, we found a very rigid, religious, anti-intellectual
atmosphere that demanded that children be in lock-step with Steiner's view
of the world. We also learned that although it was OK by Steiner if children
did not read until, say, 13 years of age, it was NOT Ok for a child to read
earlier than 9.
The one good lesson I learned at Waldorf was not to take people with a
position to promote and money to make at their word.
The second thing was (and I should have known this already!) that parents
should never, ever, EVER hand over their parenting reins to anyone, and
especially not to teachers who purport to have special knowledge of the
universe and who follow a guru, be that guru Steiner or Jesus or Dewey.
Lisa
) From: Christine Natale (Golden3000997 cs.com)
) Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 23:36:48 EST
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Subject: Re: Open or Closed Case
)
) Speaking from experience?
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New
) threads are always welcome.
)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 23:02:55 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: link doesn't work
In another place Frank had some problem with this
link.http://www.nobel.se/physics/laureates/1910/waals-lecture.pdf)I just
tried it again with no trouible. Perhaps, Frank might try www.nobel.se and
do a search for van der waals.
See you, Peter
_________________________________________________________________
You could be a genius! Find out by taking the IQ Test 2003. $5.50 (incl
GST). Click here: http://sites.ninemsn.com.au/minisite/testaustralia/
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 23:41:36 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: van der Waals and Steiner
In AT Frank was having trouble looking at van der Waals Nobel Prize Lecture
for 1910. I thought I might briefly summarise the content of that lecture
which I think is important. I would also draw your attention to the 1920
Nobel Prize lecture by Gillaume
(http://www.nobel.se/physics/laureates/1920/guillaume-lecture.pdf).
The reason I draw attention to these is that they both show that famous
science of the time and before the Warmth Course had the expansion
(sometimes contraction) of materials in whatever phase (solid, liquid or
gas) depending on higher powers of the temperature change than the linear
term that Steiner claims. Both of these Nobel lecture have terms in at least
the square of the temperature. Steiner's course does some simple algebra and
then claims something special that arises from that simple algebra after he
obtains terms in the square and the cube of the temperature change. This is
complete nonsense. Had Steiner done the simplest checking of the literature,
or checked with someone who knew something about this topic at the time, he
would have found these cubic terms already existing for all forms of matter
in the expressions for expansion (or contraction). I think there are two
possibilities: (1) he was ignorant of these terms and he decided to go ahead
and talk to an audience likewise ignorant and claim knowledge and
understanding that he didn't in fact have (intellectual dishonesty) ; (2) he
did know about these terms and he deliberately ignored them in his course
(simple dishonesty).
I would like to draw your attention once more to Steiner's approval and
encouragement of deception towards the parents of children at Waldorf
Schools. In the light of that approval, it does not seem at all surprising
to me that examples of similar deception can be found elsewhere in his
writings and lectures. I believe this should leave a reader to wonder what
parts of his writings are honest.
See you, Peter
_________________________________________________________________
SEEK: Now with over 50,000 dream jobs! Click here:
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 23:11:12 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Just the facts...
"It is indeed very uncommon--note that I am saying uncommon, though it does
not always have to be so--that a soul belongs to the same community on earth
through a number of consecutive incarnations. Souls pass from one earthly
community to another...we have one example of souls actually assuming the
same nationality a number of times. That is the case with the people of
Central Europe. These Central European peoples include many souls that are
incarnated among them today and have also been incarnated in the Germanic
tribes in the past. This is a fact we are able to trace."
Steiner, Rudolf. The Destinies of Individuals and of Nations. (1914-15)
Trans. Anna R. Meuss. New York: Anthroposophic Press 1987.
Does anyone know what Steiner means when he speaks of facts we are able to
trace?
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 23:46:24 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: van der Waals and Steiner
Interesting. Thanks, Peter. Your post points to where I see a large part
of the problem here: anthroposophists seem to imagine a different set of
definitions to certain words than non-anthroposophists. Obviously, the word
"science" is a prime example.
You wrote: "I think there are two
possibilities: (1) he was ignorant of these terms and he decided to go ahead
and talk to an audience likewise ignorant and claim knowledge and
understanding that he didn't in fact have (intellectual dishonesty) ; (2) he
did know about these terms and he deliberately ignored them in his course
(simple dishonesty)."
I wonder if there might be a third reason: Steiner believed he spoke
honestly but the words he used stretched the mainstream definition into a
very grey area? His "facts," for example, seem to be facts only to those
who believe He was truly clairvoyant. It seems to me that if this is the
case, we are not speaking in terms of "science" but rather in terms of
"faith." I am not judging anyone's particular faith and would appreciate
feedback from anthroposophically inclined list members.
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 08:15:30 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: van der Waals and Steiner
G'day Walden,
The thing I find most amusing about your suggestion is the argument about
the precise definition of cult. I am more annoyed by the fact that the DOFs
use precise definitions when it suits them and become much more nebulous
when that suits them better. The immediate reason for me raising this was
the standards of honesty required of Peter Staudenmaier by the inhabitatnts
of AT were clearly not met by Steiner. I just love that argument about the
meaning of a "speaking tour of Norway".
I don't think Steiner should be allowed to wriggle out of his deception by
the use of fuzzy and broad definitions. We discussed at length the claim
that Steiner was a scientist. Well he has a responsibility as a scientist to
report the work of others accurately, particularly to those who do not know
that work. Anything short of that is called misrepresentation and is
dishonest. In the warmth course he should have said something like:
Rods of metal generally (but not exclusively) expand according to a formula
the first two terms of which may be represented as L=L0+a*L0*deltaT. There
are higher order terms appearing in the literature which are mostly ignored
in texts for beginners because it simplifies the problem, and these terms
are small. They are not ignored in some practical problems and sometimes
become important (see for example the work by Gillaume on making mass and
lengths standards). We can find the formula for the expansion of a volume
by multiplication of the length, breadth and height of a block. This also
gives us terms which are linear in deltaT, quadratic in deltaT, cubic in
deltaT and so on.
At this point there is a problem for Steiner because his argument vanishes.
The effect he talks about in the warmth course is no longer there, because
it is an artifact of his simplifying and incorrect assumption.
I think the Einstein article is more dishonest because the people to whom he
was delivering the lecture were clearly not trained in the sciences and so
had only found out about Einstein and relativity through such means as
popularisations, and Steiner had a duty of care towards them because he was
in some sense their employer. Instead he misled them about Einstein's theory
of relativity, using the deception as a means to bolster his position as
leader and guru of Anthroposophy. The book as a whole shows he had some
days to think about what he was going to say.
As we have seen, I think the words which is the most problematic for
Anthroposophists are "lie" and "dishonest". We have seen regular accusations
against Peter S, for what could at most be termed mistakes, if they were
that. We also see regular defenses of Steiner and Waldorf Schools for their
deliberate and calculated deception. I think the same standards should
apply.
See you, Peter
)From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
)Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)Subject: Re: van der Waals and Steiner
)Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 23:46:24 -0800
)
)Interesting. Thanks, Peter. Your post points to where I see a large part
)of the problem here: anthroposophists seem to imagine a different set of
)definitions to certain words than non-anthroposophists. Obviously, the
)word
)"science" is a prime example.
)
)You wrote: "I think there are two
)possibilities: (1) he was ignorant of these terms and he decided to go
)ahead
)and talk to an audience likewise ignorant and claim knowledge and
)understanding that he didn't in fact have (intellectual dishonesty) ; (2)
)he
)did know about these terms and he deliberately ignored them in his course
)(simple dishonesty)."
)
)I wonder if there might be a third reason: Steiner believed he spoke
)honestly but the words he used stretched the mainstream definition into a
)very grey area? His "facts," for example, seem to be facts only to those
)who believe He was truly clairvoyant. It seems to me that if this is the
)case, we are not speaking in terms of "science" but rather in terms of
)"faith." I am not judging anyone's particular faith and would appreciate
)feedback from anthroposophically inclined list members.
)
)-Walden
)
)==^================================================================
)You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic.
)New threads are always welcome.
)
)
)
)
)
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 00:39:49 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Races Up and Down
Over at the A-T list, there is an interesting exchange between a few people
regarding Theosophy, Anthroposophy, root races, etc. The question of
"epochs" and "races" continues. Peter Staudenmaier quoted Blavatsky in what
I consider an informative post:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_tomorrow/message/3374
Peter S. wrote: In volume I of the 1893 London edition of The Secret
Doctrine, Blavatsky sometimes refers to the root-races as "our Five Races",
of which "two more have still to appear" (261), and at several points she
writes simply of "five Root Races" without bothering to add any mention of
the other two (e.g. 150). Blavatsky discusses the yellow, black, brown, and
red races at length in volume II of The Secret Doctrine; see, for example,
pp. 366-367.
The notion that her racial terminoogy refers to time periods instead of
races is false, as volume II makes clear. She says that each "Root-Race"
consists of "sub-races and innumerable family divisions and tribes" (462),
and she provides a "genealogical tree of the Fifth Root-Race" (453). "The
Human Races are born one from the other, grow, develop, become old and die.
Their sub-races and nations follow the same rule." (463) She makes much of
the "great difference between the intellectual capacities of races" (332).
Blavatsky describes how a minority of Atlanteans evolved into Aryans and
produced "the Northern stocks", while the "yellow and red, brown and black"
are merely "the remnants of the Atlanteans", produced when the "undeveloped
tribes and families of the Atlantean stock fell gradually into a still more
abject and savage condition." (786) According to her account, peoples with
"more Aryan blood" conquered those with less (789). She refers repeatedly to
"the five hitherto developed Races" (e.g. 207). "There are, however,
considerable numbers of the mixed Lemuro-Atlantean peoples produced by
various crossings with such semi-human stocks -- e.g., the wild men of
Borneo, the Veddhas of Ceylon, classified by Prof. Flower among Aryans (!),
most of the remaining Australians, Bushmen, Negritos, Andaman islanders,
etc." (206; all parentheses in original, throughout this post.)
In keeping with her remarkably inconsistent racial terminology and
numbering, Blavatsky also writes about the "three distinct primeval Races,"
namely "the red-yellow, the black, and the brown-white" (260). "Esoteric
Teaching names three great divisions, namely, the red-yellow, the black, and
the brown-white." (210) At the same time, she makes clear that root races
are biological categories: "The Malays and Papuans are a mixed stock,
resulting from the intermarriages of the low Atlantean sub-races with the
seventh sub-race of the Third Root-Race. Like the Hottentots, they are of
indirect Lemuro-Atlantean descent. It is a most suggestive fact -- to those
concrete thinkers who demand a physical proof of Karma -- that the lowest
races of men are now rapidly dying out..." (824)
She then explains that as we approach the future emergence of the sixth root
race, there will only be three racial groupings left: "the white (Aryan,
Fifth Root-Race), the yellow, and the African negro -- with their crossings
(Atlanto-European divisions). Redskins, Eskimos, Papuans, Australians,
Polynesians, etc. -- all are dying out. Those who realize that every
Root-Race runs through a gamut of seven sub-races with seven branchlets,
etc, will understand the 'why'. The tide-wave of incarnating Egos has rolled
past them to harvest experience in more developed and less senile stocks;
and their extinction is hence a Karmic necessity." (825)
Blavatsky explains that "The present yellow races are the descendants,
however, of the early branches of the Fourth Race," whereas the "degenerated
Australians" are descended from "the seventh sub-race of the Third." (209)
In contrast, "the 'cream' of the Fourth Race gravitated more and more toward
the apex of physical and intellectual evolution," eventually yielding "the
nascent Fifth (the Aryan) Race" (209). "Sub-races, guided by Karmic Law or
destiny, repeat unconsciously the first steps of their respective
mother-races. As the comparatively fair Brahmans -- when invading India with
its dark-coloured Dravidians -- have come from the North, so the Aryan Fifth
race must claim its origin from northern regions." (812)
Her general approach is nicely summed up in the following disquisition on
"the Australian savages": "The survivors of those later Lemurians, who
escaped the destruction of their fellows when the main Continent was
submerged, became the ancestors of a portion of the present native tribes.
Being a very low sub-race, begotten originally of animals, of monsters,
whose very fossils are now resting miles under the sea floors, their stock
has since existed in an environment strongly subjected to the law of
retardation. Australia is one of the oldest lands now above the waters, and
in the senile decrepitude of old age, its 'virgin soil' notwithstanding. It
can produce no new forms, unless helped by new and fresh races, and
articifical cultivation and breeding." (207)
Walden: Here is Steiner (the Anthroposophist) with the same stuff some years
later:
"[W]e are not justified in thinking that human beings were originally like
the savages of today. The savages have developed into what they now
are--with their superstitions, their magical practices and their unclean
appearance--from states originally more perfect. The only superiority we
have over them is that, while starting from the same conditions, we did not
degenerate as they did. I might therefore say: The evolution of man has
taken two paths. It is not true that the savages of today represent the
original condition of mankind. Mankind, though to begin with it looked more
animal-like, was highly civilized. ... Just as the present savages have
fallen from the level of the human beings of primeval times, so the apes are
beings who have fallen still lower."
Steiner, Rudolf. The Evolution of the Earth and Man and the Influence of the
Stars. (1924) Trans. Gladys Hahn. Hudson, NY: Anthroposophic Press, 1987
Is it just me or does anyone else (on either side of any spiritual fence)
find this difficult to read and quite disturbing? If I keep taking it out
of context, someone please help 'cause I really need to know.
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 10:22:48 +0000
From: simon etchell (simonetchell f2s.com)
Subject: article in sunday telegraph UK
Dan
Sorry it took so long, finally found the magazine !! Its all about the
Harkenville Waldorf Steiner community near New York and mentions some
sceptics and the PLANS lawsuit
Shall I put in the post to your Studio E San Francisco address ?
Simon
hoping for truth
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1292
-- Topica Digest --
Re: article in sunday telegraph UK
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Cult - NOT
By gideonmills yahoo.com
Re: grateful graduate
By gideonmills yahoo.com
Why all the wooden/woolen toys?
By flandersnswan yahoo.com
Forwarded by Christine
By Golden3000997 cs.com
Re: Forwarded by Christine
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: Forwarded by Christine
By Golden3000997 cs.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_tomorrow/message/3407
By feetapparel hotmail.com
Dottie and honesty
By feetapparel hotmail.com
Re: Why all the wooden/woolen toys?
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 10:12:23 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: article in sunday telegraph UK
simon etchell, you wrote:
)Sorry it took so long, finally found the magazine !! Its all about the
)Harkenville Waldorf Steiner community near New York and mentions some
)sceptics and the PLANS lawsuit
)
)Shall I put in the post to your Studio E San Francisco address ?
Yes, thank you.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 12:47:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Gideon Mills (gideonmills yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Cult - NOT
"The association of WE/
Anthroposophy
with either word must be stopped and irrefutable evidence brought
forward into
the arenas of legal and social opinion that both Anthroposophy and
Waldorf
Education are in concept and practice universally human and make no
qualitative
or quantitative differential between any persons in respect to race,
creed,
color, sex or national origin."
First, what percentage of Waldorf teachers are people of color? Secondly, what impact do you suppose the teaching (overtly or covertly) of the superiority of a particular race has on the few children of color who are enrolled in Waldorf schools? Thirdly, anthroposophists may believe in the universal human, but none of the First Nations people (for example) I know believe in that and in fact find such a concept to yet another way to promote genocide.
Deborah
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam
--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 12:52:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Gideon Mills (gideonmills yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: grateful graduate
Christine Natale (Golden3000997 cs.com) wrote:
"You will be held responsible for both your use of this word and the intention
behind it, hopefully in court."
As I remember from my Advanced Torts law school course, one cannot sue in defamation for comments made re: an organization with more than 20 members.
Deborah
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam
--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 13:49:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Shirin Samiljan (flandersnswan yahoo.com)
Subject: Why all the wooden/woolen toys?
Hello.
When I have been looking into Waldorf, I keep running
across an aspect of Waldorf schools which I don't
really understand.
Why is there a focus on beeswax crayons as opposed to
"Crayola" parafin crayons? Why is there a focus on
wooden toys rather than metal or plastic toys? Why are
soft toys stuffed with (often organic) wool?
(I was trying to describe to a friend what Waldorf was
and she said, "Oh yeah. One of those places with the
knitting and the wooden toys." Until she made the
comment I hadn't really noticed the non-plastic
preference.)
Are toy materials delineated by Steiner or the
national Waldorf group, or are these independent
decisions made by each school site (which all happen
to agree with each other in this area)?
Curious,
Flanders
__________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam
http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 20:40:43 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: Forwarded by Christine
Subj: [native_american_storytellers] Unity
Date: 3/15/2004 7:56:07 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: blue_panther mindspring.com (blue panther)
Reply-to: (A HREF="mailto:native_american_storytellers yahoogroups.com")
native_american_storytellers yahoogroups.com(/A)
To: Native_village yahoogroups.com (Native_Village)
Unity... Many, many years ago turtle was the designated "keeper of the
waters." You could see him as he swam about his duties. His shell was
made
up of solid plates of red, black, white, or yellow color. He was very
distinctive and visible. All the animals respected and honored the turtle...
all except one, 'ole coyote.' One day turtle was out sunning himself and
coyote came along and ate turtle up. Of course all the waters, ponds,
streams, and rivers started to dry up and become stale and unclean. The
animals hurriedly gathered from all four directions to coyote and pleaded,
"Please, please bring back turtle... surely we will all perish... the
waters... the cool clear water... please, please..." So coyote finally
conceded and "threw-up" turtle. The animals immediately began to
piece
turtle back together the best they could. It worked. The shell came together
to become a beautiful mosaic blend of many, many colors... extremely shiny
and beautiful. Each plate shined with the remains and debris of all the
colors. And sure enough turtle came back to life. And when he did, the water
came back, too. The waters flowed again... tumbling down from the mountains
and rippling out clear, clean, and pure.
From the Archives of Blue Panther
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 21:28:28 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: Forwarded by Christine
Huh?
Christine, please: if you are going to post aphorisms and folk tales, please
explain *why.*
Many of us lead quite busy and productive lives outside of our membership on
this list, and we prefer to optimize our time here with relevant discussion.
If you cannot make these posts relevant, well, than they seem unworthy of
our time and attention.
In a few words: please stop being so obtuse. We want to hear what you have
to say. So just say it.
Lisa
) From: Christine Natale (Golden3000997 cs.com)
) Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 20:40:43 EST
) To: anthroposophy_tomorrow yahoogroups.com, waldorf-critics topica.com
) Subject: Forwarded by Christine
)
) Subj: [native_american_storytellers] Unity
) Date: 3/15/2004 7:56:07 PM Eastern Standard Time
) From: blue_panther mindspring.com (blue panther)
) Reply-to: (A HREF="mailto:native_american_storytellers yahoogroups.com")
) native_american_storytellers yahoogroups.com(/A)
) To: Native_village yahoogroups.com (Native_Village)
)
) Unity... Many, many years ago turtle was the designated "keeper of the
) waters." You could see him as he swam about his duties. His shell was
) made
) up of solid plates of red, black, white, or yellow color. He was very
) distinctive and visible. All the animals respected and honored the turtle...
) all except one, 'ole coyote.' One day turtle was out sunning himself and
) coyote came along and ate turtle up. Of course all the waters, ponds,
) streams, and rivers started to dry up and become stale and unclean. The
) animals hurriedly gathered from all four directions to coyote and pleaded,
) "Please, please bring back turtle... surely we will all perish... the
) waters... the cool clear water... please, please..." So coyote finally
) conceded and "threw-up" turtle. The animals immediately began to
) piece
) turtle back together the best they could. It worked. The shell came together
) to become a beautiful mosaic blend of many, many colors... extremely shiny
) and beautiful. Each plate shined with the remains and debris of all the
) colors. And sure enough turtle came back to life. And when he did, the water
) came back, too. The waters flowed again... tumbling down from the mountains
) and rippling out clear, clean, and pure.
)
) From the Archives of Blue Panther
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New
) threads are always welcome.
)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 22:04:42 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: Re: Forwarded by Christine
Hi Lisa,
You have a really hard time with the right-brain stuff, don't you?
: ) Christine
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 04:13:04 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_tomorrow/message/3407
Dottie posted
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_tomorrow/message/3407
To clear up some evident confusion:
Dottie asks:
Would you not hold a man who claims himself to
be a HISTORIAN to the same criteria?
Peter F: responds:
Absolutely. However I would have expected you might have more interest in
Steiner's honesty or lack thereof than Staudenmaier's. I think that you
would do well to recall that these standards of honesty are the standards
expected of Staudenmaier by various Anthroposophist defenders including you.
Apparently it doesn't disturb you that Steiner doesn't meet them. It is not
at all obvious to me that Staudenmaier doesn't meet them.
Dottie quoted me severely out of context and then misrepresents what I
wrote:
Farell:
)I think the Einstein article is more dishonest.
The full paragraph from which Dottie quoted out of context is:
I think the Einstein article is more dishonest because the people to whom he
was delivering the lecture were clearly not trained in the sciences and so
had only found out about Einstein and relativity through such means as
popularisations, and Steiner had a duty of care towards them because he was
in some sense their employer. Instead he misled them about Einstein's theory
of relativity, using the deception as a means to bolster his position as
leader and guru of Anthroposophy. The book as a whole shows he had some
days to think about what he was going to say.
Dottie follows this with among other things this:
Farell is calling Einstine dishonest.
Peter F. responds:
I think you might try reading what I wrote. I did not write that Einstein
was dishonest. I wrote that Steiner's article on Einstein was dishonest.
Dottie wrote:
Well isn't that quite generous of you Farell? Whew.
Mistakes, how nice and genteel. Steiner lies but Dugan
and Staudenmaier make mistakes. Good job. How much do
you get paid for this? Are you on the payroll? Which
calls to mind another question I have regarding PLANS:
do they get paid to keep on line and keep the ongoing
lies and ugly insinuations going on. If so this would
explain the ongoing pursuit that ever twists and
turns. I mean they could be out of a job if they
didn't keep the lies coming. Hmm. Does Lisa and Dugan
get paid?
Peter F responds:
Dottie these are your standards. By your standards Steiner is a liar. By my
standards also. I have yet to see any sign that Dan Dugan or Peter
Staudenmaier have lied in any post or publication. For the record I am not
on the payroll of plans, I am not a member of plans, I have contributed no
money to plans. The sum total of my involvement with plans is the posts to
the critics mail listwhich are public and a very small number of private
posts to a number of people who also post or used to post to the critics
mail list.
I would also suggest you might like to consider showing some respect to
people with whom you disagree. I happen not to think that Steiner was a
great philosopher or a great scientist. I happen to think he was a fraud and
a charlatan. I don't think this on the basis of no information, and I am
happy to point out what kinds of evidence might change my mind. I have not
made insinuations. I have been straight forward in my criticisms of Steiner
as I have read more of his work. I have told no lies in my posts on Steiner
although I freely admit I have made mistakes. Instead of calling me names
you might like to check out whether what I am saying is correct.
This approach is called open minded.
See you, Peter
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 07:27:30 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: Dottie and honesty
Peter:
In a post by Dottie over at AT
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_tomorrow/message/3417
we have:
Peter S.
(By the same token, when you read Peter Farrell's post and think that
he called Einstein dishonest, it tells us nothing about Peter
Farrell, but a lot about Dottie Zold.)
Dottie:
Wasn't very nice was it. That was a GOTCHA moment for you Peter. This
is exactly what you do: take things out of context and then put your
own meaning to it. Not only do you do this in your work you do this
in your posting to the groups. I suppose I could just say I was
trying to save some 'bandwith'. Think that will work? No, it doesn't
does it. It's deceitful and that is exactly what you have done to
Steiners work and to the people on this list. That was for you and
Dan and to share with Peter Farell how easy it is to manipulate a
sentence.
Peter F responds:
OK let's try and track what happened here. It might be a bit confusing.
1. Dottie told a deliberate lie as a ruse to demonstrate to Peter S and
possibly Peter F what it is like to be deceived.
2. Peter S assumed that Dottie had misread my post. That is that she was not
deceitful, but that she was mistaken.
3. Peter F. assumed that Dottie had misread my post. That is she was not
deceitful, but that she was mistaken.
Note that neither of us accused her of lying, only that she had misread my
post. I went back and had a look at my posts to see if they were truly
ambiguous in some way that I had not foreseen. I accepted that a cursory
glance at the post might lead a very careless reader to the conclusion that
I had accused Einstein of dishonesty.
Let me try and make it clear. This is not what Peter Staudenmaier does. It
is not what I do. I am certain I do not deliberately misrepresent the work
of other people in my posts here, or in anything I publish anywhere. I am
fairly certain Peter S does not either (but not absolutely certain). I do
not know Peter S personally, only through his posts here, and an extremely
small number of offlist emails. I have never seen any evidence of
dishonesty, and I understand the train of thought that leads to the
arguments he puts forward, and his interpreation of the various texts he
presents.
We have an example where Dottie has deliberately misrepresented my
contribution. Fortunately, the misrepresentation was such that no careful
reader could possibly have supported her misrepresentation. Even more
fortunately she has come clean.
So apparently neither Peter S or Peter F are ready to jump on some apparent
misreading as evidence of a lie. Apparently Dottie is.
I claim that Steiner has misrepresented the work of a number of physicists
in his "Warmth Course." I believe that misrepresentation was deliberate
(that is he knew that what he was saying was not the case and said it
anyway. I don't believe it was possible for Steiner to have been ignorant of
the work of van der Waals, Gillaume and others under the circumstances that
he was prepared to give the "Warmth Course". I believe he deliberately
misrepresented the work of Einstein and others in his lecture on Einstein in
"From Elephants to Einstein". I am not surprised by these misrepresentations
because he has advised others to similarly misrepresent their own work with
an aim to further Anthroposophy. He apparently believed that honesty was a
virtue which could be put aside in the goal of having mankind accept
Anthroposophy.
I could be convinced otherwise about this. Someone might be able to show
that the translation was lousy, and that the meaning was different to the
apparent meaning in the English translation I have read. Alternatively,
there might be some later publication by Steiner that I am not aware of
where he says that there are some unclear passages in the lectures I am
referring to which can be misinterpreted and which he wishes to clarify. No
doubt there are other possibilities.
The important point here is that I might be wrong but I am not lying. If
Dottie were to treat me with appropriate respect, she would recognise that
and either attempt to convince me otherwise herself, or encourage someone
else to try.
I think this equally applies to Peter Staudenmaier. One might well asky why
it has been so difficult to convince Peter Staudenmaier that he is wrong.
Dottie's conclusion (and Tarjei's and Sune's) is that he is lying. I think
the arguments for this view are at best extremely weak (eg the argument
about the tour of Norway). I think it is also interesting that Walden is
unmoved by these arguments, and that Walden appears to find quotations from
Steiner which are evidently racist. Again I don't know Walden personally
outside of this list but I have no reason to believe him to be anything
other than honest. The fact that I have not listed other contributors to the
critics list as honest should not be interpreted as meaning I don't think
they are.
See you, Peter
_________________________________________________________________
Find love today with ninemsn personals. Click here:
http://ninemsn.match.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:53:30 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Why all the wooden/woolen toys?
Flanders, you asked,
)Are toy materials delineated by Steiner or the
)national Waldorf group, or are these independent
)decisions made by each school site (which all happen
)to agree with each other in this area)?
Here is one thing Steiner said about toys:
"You can make a doll for a child by folding up an old napkin, making
two corners into legs, the other two corners into arms, a knot for
the head, and painting eyes, nose and mouth with blots of ink. Or
else you can buy the child what they call a 'pretty' doll, with real
hair and painted cheeks. We need not dwell on the fact that the
'pretty' doll is of course hideous, and apt to spoil the healthy
aesthetic sense for a lifetime. The main educational question is a
different one. If the child has before him the folded napkin, he has
to fill in from his own imagination all that is needed to make it
real and human. This work of the imagination moulds and builds the
forms of the brain. The brain unfolds as the muscles of the hand
unfold when they do the work for which they are fitted. Give the
child the so-called 'pretty' doll, and the brain has nothing more to
do. Instead of unfolding, it becomes stunted and dried up. If people
could look into the brain as the spiritual investigator can, and see
how it builds its forms, they would assuredly give their children
only such toys as are fitted to stimulate and vivify its formative
activity. Toys with dead mathematical forms alone, have a desolating
and killing effect upon the formative forces of the child. On the
other hand everything that kindles the imagination of living things
works in the right way. Our materialistic age produces few good toys.
What a healthy toy it is, for example, which represents by movable
wooden figures two smiths facing each other and hammering an anvil.
The like can still be bought in country districts. Excellent also are
the picture-books where the figures can be set in motion by pulling
threads from below, so that the child itself can transform the dead
picture into a representation of living action. All this brings about
a living mobility of the organs, and by such mobility the right forms
of the organs are built up.
"These things can of course only be touched on here, but in future
Anthroposophy will be called upon to give the necessary indications
in detail, and this it is in a position to do. For it is no empty
abstraction, but a body of living facts which can give guiding lines
for the conduct of life's realities."
[Steiner, Rudolf. Education of the Child in the Light of
Anthroposophy. (1909) Trans. George and Mary Adams. London: Rudolf
Steiner Press, 1975, pp. 26-27.]
I particularly like "If people could look into the brain as the
spiritual investigator can"!
The use of only natural materials is traditional in Waldorf. Another
interesting tradition is the making of dolls and figurines without
faces.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1293
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Forwarded by Christine
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: Why all the wooden/woolen toys?
By flandersnswan yahoo.com
Admin: ad hominem warning [Re: Forwarded by Christine]
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Dottie and honesty
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Forwarded by Christine - Not a Fairy Tale
By Golden3000997 cs.com
Re: Dottie and honesty
By feetapparel hotmail.com
RE: Forwarded by Christine - Not a Fairy Tale
By feetapparel hotmail.com
To Christine
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: Why all the wooden/woolen toys?
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Forwarded by Christine - Not a Fairy Tale
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Dottie and honesty
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 13:04:40 -0500 (EST)
From: momof2gals mindspring.com
Subject: Re: Forwarded by Christine
Not particularly. :)
-----Original Message-----
From: Christine Natale (Golden3000997 cs.com)
Sent: Mar 15, 2004 10:04 PM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Re: Forwarded by Christine
Hi Lisa,
You have a really hard time with the right-brain stuff, don't you?
: ) Christine
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 11:00:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Shirin Samiljan (flandersnswan yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Why all the wooden/woolen toys?
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 23:53:30 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Why all the wooden/woolen toys?
You said:
Here is one thing Steiner said about toys:
"You can make a doll for a child by folding up an old
napkin, making
two corners into legs, the other two corners into
arms, a knot for
the head, and painting eyes, nose and mouth with blots
of ink. Or
else you can buy the child what they call a 'pretty'
doll, with real
hair and painted cheeks. We need not dwell on the fact
that the
'pretty' doll is of course hideous, and apt to spoil
the healthy
aesthetic sense for a lifetime.
This seems fine. And so does:
Our materialistic age produces few good toys.
[Steiner, Rudolf. Education of the Child in the Light
of
Anthroposophy. (1909) Trans. George and Mary Adams.
London: Rudolf
Steiner Press, 1975, pp. 26-27.]
But I have a hard time understanding why toys which
stimulate the imagination need to be made out of wood.
This is incredibly nitpicky, I'm sure, but it seems to
me as if specifying certain materials from which toys
can be made would drive up the costs of the Waldorf
schools. Beeswax and naturally oiled woods are not
going to be inexpensive.
You also said:
The use of only natural materials is traditional in
Waldorf. Another
interesting tradition is the making of dolls and
figurines without
faces.
-Dan Dugan
I've always like the idea of dolls with no faces--it's
traditional in various cultures, although the
Pennsylvania Dutch and Amish cultures leap to mind.
So are you saying that the choice of materials is part
of the Waldorf tradition, and not part of the
educational process? Because I've heard it explained
the other way around. That the education of the
children *relies* up on exposing them to only natural
objects--no plastics, no "un-natural" colors. I think
I may be making too fine a point, but I also am of the
mindset that I cannot see why beeswax is more
"natural" than parrafin, but I am prepared to believe
that drawing with beeswax may be entirely different
than drawing with parrafin.
Flanders
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam
http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 11:24:16 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Admin: ad hominem warning [Re: Forwarded by Christine]
3/15/04, Christine Natale wrote:
)Hi Lisa,
)
)You have a really hard time with the right-brain stuff, don't you?
)
): ) Christine
I'm sorry, Christine, but a smiley doesn't neutralize an ad hominem.
Please don't engage in personal carping. This list requires that you
address the topics being discussed, not the personalities of the
discussants.
-Dan Dugan
Moderator
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 14:27:59 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Dottie and honesty
Peter F. wrote:
(snip)
) I claim that Steiner has misrepresented the work of a number of physicists
) in his "Warmth Course." I believe that misrepresentation was deliberate
) (that is he knew that what he was saying was not the case and said it
) anyway. I don't believe it was possible for Steiner to have been ignorant
of
) the work of van der Waals, Gillaume and others under the circumstances
that
) he was prepared to give the "Warmth Course". I believe he deliberately
) misrepresented the work of Einstein and others in his lecture on Einstein
in
) "From Elephants to Einstein". I am not surprised by these
misrepresentations
) because he has advised others to similarly misrepresent their own work
with
) an aim to further Anthroposophy. He apparently believed that honesty was a
) virtue which could be put aside in the goal of having mankind accept
) Anthroposophy.
Hhhmmm.... food for thought, Peter. I doubt Steiner woke up one morning
and decided to be "dishonest." Language is a fascinating study. Words
often change their meaning over time. I suppose I am playing devil's
advocate a little here but I wonder if Steiner simply *wished* for "science"
(for example) to take on a more spiritual meaning? He believed in his cause
and felt a need to *will* his audience into this belief system. Sure, it
would be more effective to do the Vulcan neck pinch (a la Spock in Star
Trek) but Steiner needed to use words to convey his message. He saw the
world (including past, present and future) in a unique manner and believed
he was destined to share this knowledge ("spiritual" science) with the
public. Where geologists see minerals, Steiner saw gnomes (spiritual
entities). Where one person sees an obvious "lie" another sees a
clairvoyant. I believe we need to try very hard to communicate using words
we can all understand - thus my communication problems with some
anthroposophists. We speak the same language but we do not always connect.
C'est dommage.
) I could be convinced otherwise about this. Someone might be able to show
) that the translation was lousy, and that the meaning was different to the
) apparent meaning in the English translation I have read. Alternatively,
) there might be some later publication by Steiner that I am not aware of
) where he says that there are some unclear passages in the lectures I am
) referring to which can be misinterpreted and which he wishes to clarify.
No
) doubt there are other possibilities.
)
) The important point here is that I might be wrong but I am not lying. If
) Dottie were to treat me with appropriate respect, she would recognise that
) and either attempt to convince me otherwise herself, or encourage someone
) else to try.
Yes, I appreciate that line of reasoning. It makes sense to me. I hope it
resonates with the Dotties of the other list.
There is room for discussion but only when we hear each other.
) I think this equally applies to Peter Staudenmaier. One might well asky
why
) it has been so difficult to convince Peter Staudenmaier that he is wrong.
) Dottie's conclusion (and Tarjei's and Sune's) is that he is lying. I think
) the arguments for this view are at best extremely weak (eg the argument
) about the tour of Norway). I think it is also interesting that Walden is
) unmoved by these arguments, and that Walden appears to find quotations
from
) Steiner which are evidently racist. Again I don't know Walden personally
) outside of this list but I have no reason to believe him to be anything
) other than honest. The fact that I have not listed other contributors to
the
) critics list as honest should not be interpreted as meaning I don't think
) they are.
I have a difficult time with this, too. I try to *grok* some of the A-T
members and their views. I try to read everyone respectfully and
objectively. I must admit, however, I find that the constant complaints
from some people about Peter Staudenmaier and his "lies" are annoying and
counterproductive to the discussion. He is accused of misquoting Steiner,
for example, yet the accusation has no foundation. None that I can fathom.
He is accused of lying when he simply draws a different conclusion to
something Steiner wrote. Vast amounts of time are spent dissecting Peter
Staudenmaier's character. Why not deal with the topic at hand? Now I see a
couple of responses at the A-T list to something I asked - yet I cannot make
sense of the responses. I think I was insulted but I can't be too sure.
Weird.
I have a friend who looks at the world very differently from me. Very. He
is a capitol "C" Capitalist, a supporter of Walmart, Big Business and has
little time for environmentalism, cooperatives or... "hand-outs." We
disagree on everything from parenting to what beer to drink at the pub (I
buy local beers - he drinks Bud). Why do I consider this fellow a "friend?"
Not just because he lets me use his tools, he will help me with any project
that needs his experience or because our kids like to hang out together.
Not just because he loads me down with press clippings from "conservative"
(!) newspapers once a week. Not because his wife makes delicious cakes.
It's because we can have very good conversations where we both listen to
each other and try to figure out what makes the other *tick.* We take a
subject and attack - full steam ahead - complete with the occasional
emotional outburst for good measure. "That is the most stupid thing you
have ever said!" "What you said is completely irrational and potentially
dangerous for any community!" Always, however, we will dig into the topic -
no deflection and never any personal attacks. I appreciate the time my
friend puts into his arguments. I strongly disagree with most of his views.
But I have yet to accuse the guy of... lying.
The Internet is not the best place for human discourse. I still think,
however, we can communicate here. BTW, I don't post Steiner quotes to
provoke an argument. I am really looking for help in deciphering the
quotes. Many of the more "difficult" Steiner quotes have bothered me for a
long time now. I always felt uncomfortable bringing them up during our
family's time at Waldorf. I believe these difficult ideas *must* be dealt
with, though - otherwise we cannot learn and move forward. Moving is not
always easy and can involve change - difficult at the best of times. But
change can happen. I know.
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 19:08:00 EST
From: Golden3000997 cs.com
Subject: Forwarded by Christine - Not a Fairy Tale
Subj: [Dreamkeeper] No nap time for 4 year olds?
Date: 3/16/2004 10:20:04 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: dharmes1 optusnet.com.au (Deborah Harmes, Ph.D.)
Reply-to: (A HREF="mailto:Dreamkeeper yahoogroups.com")
Dreamkeeper yahoogroups.com(/A)
To: Dreamkeeper yahoogroups.com
File: tracker.zip (20974 bytes)
DL Time (45333 bps): ( 1 minute
washingtonpost.com ) Education
Time May Be Up for Naps in Pre-K Class
By Nancy Trejos
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, March 15, 2004; Page A01
After lunch and snacks, alphabet and story times, the
lights go off. Sixteen tiny bodies sprawl on a sea of red foam mats, the
sounds of classical piano coaxing them to sleep.
And there they stay, tucked under Spider-Man and
Powerpuff Girls blankets, until teacher Chantay Wynn switches on the lights 45
minutes later. "Come on, get up," Wynn chides 4-year-old Steven Dieu, lifting him
from his mat. "Open your eyes."
It's a daily ritual for the pre-kindergarten students
at Hoffman-Boston Elementary School in Arlington, as it is at countless
schools across the country. But in the increasingly urgent world of public
education, is it a luxury that 4-year-olds no longer can afford?
By asking that question, a few leaders of Washington
area school systems have begun to challenge one of the pillars of the early
school experience: afternoon naps.
"Nap time needs to go away," Prince George's County
schools chief André J. Hornsby said during a recent meeting with Maryland
legislators. "We need to get rid of all the baby school stuff they used to do."
Hornsby wants to convert his pre-kindergarten classes
into a full-day program. If he secures the funding to begin that next fall,
there will be no mats or cots allowed, he said. In Anne Arundel County, where
full-day pre-kindergarten is in place, Superintendent Eric J. Smith also has
opted not to build nap time into the schedule.
Educators including Hornsby and Smith find themselves
under growing pressure to make school more rigorous -- even in the earliest
grades -- in the belief that children who are behind academically by age 6 or 7
have a difficult time catching up. "The time is very precious," Smith said.
"When they come into first grade or kindergarten for the first time, they learn
within a few weeks of the school experience that they're not as capable, and
that's a burden that is extremely damaging."
Critics of eliminating school naps say the reality is
that many 4-year-olds don't get enough sleep at home. There are piano
lessons, soccer practices and other scheduled activities during the day, and many
kids stay up past their bedtime because their parents come home late from work
and want to talk or play.
"Kids are often kind of overscheduled even as
toddlers, even as preschoolers," said Kenneth A. Haller, assistant professor of
pediatrics at Saint Louis University School of Medicine.
"We are a sleep-deprived society," agreed Stephen H.
Sheldon, director of the Sleep Medicine Center at Children's Memorial Hospital
in Chicago.
Typical 4- and 5-year-olds need 10 to 12 hours of
sleep, and if they don't get that at night they will likely fall asleep during
the day, according to the American Academy of Pediatrics. The amount of sleep a
school-age child needs decreases each year, and the need for naps diminishes
after age 3, pediatricians say.
Most evenings, Adrian Moreno tries to get his son,
David, to fall asleep by 9 p.m. The goal is to wake David at 7 a.m. to get him
ready for pre-kindergarten at Hoffman-Boston, where administrators continue to
support naps. But David, who recently turned 5, has a 3-year-old sister, and
the two often keep each other awake playing games until 10 p.m. or so, Moreno
said.
It's no wonder that on a recent rainy day, David was
fast asleep soon after Wynn switched off the classroom lights.
"I think they need to sleep a bit," Moreno said.
"They're small. They have to rest their minds."
Nia Baker, 4, wakes up around 6:30 every morning to
get ready for day care and later spends almost three hours in pre-kindergarten
at Seabrook Elementary School in Prince George's, said her mother, Aisha
Baker. Then she goes back to day care until 6 p.m., when Baker, a single mother and
a cashier at a D.C. restaurant, picks her up.
The rest of Nia's evening usually goes like this: She
eats dinner, reviews what she learned in school for about 20 minutes, plays a
little, then watches TV for 10 minutes. Bedtime is 7:30 p.m.
"You get tired," Nia said, reflecting on her
schedule.
Nia gets a 30-minute nap at day care, which her
mother appreciates. "They need a break to take a nap and get rejuvenated," Baker
said.
But support of naps is hardly unanimous.
"Do all 4-year-olds need nap time? The answer is
certainly no," said Ari Brown, a pediatrician in Texas and author of the book
"Baby 411."
Smith, who came to Anne Arundel County in July 2002
from Charlotte, is a firm believer that pre-kindergarten students don't need
naps. His teachers and principals urge parents to make sure the children get
enough sleep at home. In place of nap time is "quiet learning time," during which
students look at books or play with puzzles, said Barbara Griffith,
coordinator of the county's early childhood programs.
If they do fall asleep, the teacher doesn't wake
them. But the message is clear: "This is not a child-care program. It's an
educational program," Griffith said.
In effect, kindergarten is becoming more like first
grade, teachers say, which makes preschool more like the kindergarten of
yesteryear. "When I was in preschool, I remember learning socialization skills,"
Wynn said. "By the time they get to kindergarten, they have to hit the ground
running."
Wynn followed a recent "quiet time" -- what many
schools now call any break in the school day -- with a rhyming drill. By the end
of pre-kindergarten, Wynn's students have to master seven skills, from writing
their names to memorizing words in a sentence to matching words that rhyme.
She tests them each fall and spring to track their progress.
Zahava Johnson teaches two pre-kindergarten classes
at Seabrook Elementary, each almost three hours long, one in the morning and
one in the afternoon.
Johnson said her students stop paying attention to
her lessons after 15 minutes. So she offers an occasional respite with fun
activities, like singing a song about trains.
If she teaches a full-day class next year, she said,
she wants the students to take a nap. Or at least take a break from the
learning. "This is an introduction to school, and to have them work like a
6-year-old, I don't think that's going to work," she said.
Seabrook Principal Marvel Smith is more supportive of
Hornsby's move to eliminate naps. "They can't be babied," she said. "These
are young minds. We have to take advantage of this early stage when they grasp
everything."
(c) 2004 The Washington Post Company
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 00:49:23 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Dottie and honesty
Walden wrote a thoughtful response which included:
)I doubt Steiner woke up one morning
)and decided to be "dishonest." Language is a fascinating study. Words
)often change their meaning over time. I suppose I am playing devil's
)advocate a little here but I wonder if Steiner simply *wished* for
)"science"
)(for example) to take on a more spiritual meaning? He believed in his
)cause
)and felt a need to *will* his audience into this belief system. Sure, it
)would be more effective to do the Vulcan neck pinch (a la Spock in Star
)Trek) but Steiner needed to use words to convey his message. He saw the
)world (including past, present and future) in a unique manner and believed
)he was destined to share this knowledge ("spiritual" science) with the
)public. Where geologists see minerals, Steiner saw gnomes (spiritual
)entities). Where one person sees an obvious "lie" another sees a
)clairvoyant. I believe we need to try very hard to communicate using words
)we can all understand - thus my communication problems with some
)anthroposophists. We speak the same language but we do not always connect.
)C'est dommage.
Peter F responds:
I hear this view and I find it difficult to accept. I take a much less kind
view of Steiner's activities and motives. I think his work is consistent
with the interpretation that he built a career for himself as a guru,
similar to many other others before him and since. I think he chose this
career because he did not and could not build a career as an academic
philosopher. I think he discovered that he did not have to be very accurate
with those who decided to follow him. Witness even now the inability of the
followers to investigate the notion that Steiner might have any flaw at all.
I recognise that this is a pretty cynical view but I wonder whether Steiner
was more cynical yet.
Walden also writes:
)I have a difficult time with this, too. I try to *grok* some of the A-T
)members and their views. I try to read everyone respectfully and
)objectively. I must admit, however, I find that the constant complaints
)from some people about Peter Staudenmaier and his "lies" are annoying and
)counterproductive to the discussion. He is accused of misquoting Steiner,
)for example, yet the accusation has no foundation. None that I can fathom.
)He is accused of lying when he simply draws a different conclusion to
)something Steiner wrote. Vast amounts of time are spent dissecting Peter
)Staudenmaier's character. Why not deal with the topic at hand? Now I see
)a
)couple of responses at the A-T list to something I asked - yet I cannot
)make
)sense of the responses. I think I was insulted but I can't be too sure.
)Weird.
Peter F.
In so far as I have investigated the accusations of lying against Peter S,
particularly by Sune, I also don't see any foundation for the accusation.
There are and were accusations that one of the lectures Peter S. was talking
about was fraudulent. I haven't checked for a while but the last time I did
those claims were still on Sune's web site. All the things I have been able
to check independently indicate to me that Peter S has not lied, that the
statements he has made about the documents might be open to other
interpretations, but that his interpretations are not egregious distortions,
and may well be what Steiner intended. Evidently you have done some checking
as well and come to the same or similar conclusions. The lectures do exist.
They do say things which on the face of it appear to express what I would
call racist sentiments. I continue to read other racist sentiments expressed
by Steiner defenders in the course of that defense, and an apparent
inability to understand that what they are saying is racist.
)The Internet is not the best place for human discourse. I still think,
)however, we can communicate here. BTW, I don't post Steiner quotes to
)provoke an argument. I am really looking for help in deciphering the
)quotes. Many of the more "difficult" Steiner quotes have bothered me for a
)long time now. I always felt uncomfortable bringing them up during our
)family's time at Waldorf. I believe these difficult ideas *must* be dealt
)with, though - otherwise we cannot learn and move forward. Moving is not
)always easy and can involve change - difficult at the best of times. But
)change can happen. I know.
)
Peter F:
Before the telephone, people corresponded for many years without meeting and
developed close relationships through writing, and studied complicated and
difficult topics together. The main disadvantage of the internet is also its
advantage, near immediacy. With letters that might have taken weeks or
months to get to their intended location, the writers realised that they had
to take care with what they wrote. In that sense, internet correspondence is
more like speaking without the advantages of the tone of voice.
What would constitute moving forward in your view? Isn't one possibility
that Steiner is written off as a crank and charlatan and quietly forgotten,
and that Waldorf schools gradually evolve to have no connection with Steiner
or his philosophy. Imagine that! No books by Steiner in a Waldorf library.
See you, Peter
_________________________________________________________________
Find love today with ninemsn personals. Click here:
http://ninemsn.match.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 00:55:43 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Forwarded by Christine - Not a Fairy Tale
G'day Christine,
The fact I write things which are critical of Waldorf Schools and the
philosophy of Waldorf Schools does not mean that I accept everything going
on outside of Waldorf Schools as OK. It also doesn't mean that I do not
criticise things that are going on in mainstream schools in other places.
One of my favorite websites for such criticism (mostly at secondary and
tertiary level in the US) is www.irascibleprofessor.com I don't think there
has ever been direct criticism of a Waldorf School at this site.
See you, Peter
_________________________________________________________________
We've 100s of NEW questions! Play Millionaire online to win $$$$. Click here
http://sites.ninemsn.com.au/minisite/millionaire/default.asp
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 17:03:52 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: To Christine
Hi Christine,
Each time I see that a message has arrived from you I feel elated with
anticipation. I really enjoyed your contribution shortly after you joined
this list - even when I do not agree with your take on things, I do
appreciate your thoughts and feelings. In that you were willing to help
with a Waldorf PR project with yours truly... I gotta tell ya - I was
excited at the possibilities.
I really thought we had found some common ground in which to plant some
seeds. Now I see you posting various (interesting) tidbits which do not
have much to do with this particular list. Whether or not you and I like
the rules here is irrelevant. There are certain very simple rules and I
would not like to see you leave because of these rules. Especially when we
are on the edge of actually working toward something - within the context
of the rules - that might be of good use for people other than ourselves.
Please don't leave because of the list rules. We can easily work within
the framework of the simple rules. In any case, I look forward to working
with you on our previously discussed project - when you feel the time is
good for you. I think you mentioned the middle of March - fine by me. I
feel quite positive about this project. Do you have any thoughts on my
previous post about the FAQs?
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 16:53:28 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Why all the wooden/woolen toys?
Flanders, you wrote,
)But I have a hard time understanding why toys which
)stimulate the imagination need to be made out of wood.
)This is incredibly nitpicky, I'm sure, but it seems to
)me as if specifying certain materials from which toys
)can be made would drive up the costs of the Waldorf
)schools. Beeswax and naturally oiled woods are not
)going to be inexpensive.
Waldorf has its own rather expensive supply system. Stockmayer
crayons, Choroi lyres, eurythmy shoes, natural pigment paints, etc.,
all spiritually correct from Anthroposophical businesses.
)I've always like the idea of dolls with no faces--it's
)traditional in various cultures, although the
)Pennsylvania Dutch and Amish cultures leap to mind.
They say it's to stimulate the children's imaginations. I say maybe,
but I suspect it might also have something to do with magical
traditions.
)So are you saying that the choice of materials is part
)of the Waldorf tradition, and not part of the
)educational process? Because I've heard it explained
)the other way around. That the education of the
)children *relies* up on exposing them to only natural
)objects--no plastics, no "un-natural" colors.
Well, Waldorf is holistic, so everything is part of the educational process.
)I think
)I may be making too fine a point, but I also am of the
)mindset that I cannot see why beeswax is more
)"natural" than parrafin, but I am prepared to believe
)that drawing with beeswax may be entirely different
)than drawing with parrafin.
Modeling with beeswax is certainly different from modeling with
paraffin (it softens at too high a temperature). But Steiner and
other occultists have a special thing about bees, too. They don't
model with clay because it's mineral, and young children should be
kept in the kingdoms of life.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 17:29:25 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Forwarded by Christine - Not a Fairy Tale
Christine, you posted the article,
) washingtonpost.com ) Education
)
) Time May Be Up for Naps in Pre-K Class
)
) By Nancy Trejos
) Washington Post Staff Writer
) Monday, March 15, 2004; Page A01
You didn't make any comment, so I'm not sure what your intended
message was. I'm sure most educators, public and private, would agree
that nap time is important in pre-K, so I don't see this as having
much to do with Waldorf. It's an extreme, like the story of the
Japanese child who was killed by teachers slamming the school gate a
couple of years ago. What do you think?
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 00:11:38 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Dottie and honesty
Hi Peter Farrell,
Thanks for more food for thought. Good points.
You wrote: (snip)
) What would constitute moving forward in your view? Isn't one possibility
) that Steiner is written off as a crank and charlatan and quietly
forgotten,
) and that Waldorf schools gradually evolve to have no connection with
Steiner
) or his philosophy. Imagine that! No books by Steiner in a Waldorf library.
Well, yes, that is one possibility. I'll try to answer your question.
Moving forward...
I suppose I would think the movement is moving forward when I clearly see
"movement." And not in and out movement of the Waldorf revolving door where
parents sign up and leave wondering what just happened. Real movement.
When those who promote Waldorf Education realize how very important it is
for parents and students to understand what they will be involved with in
the school and "tell it like it is." That will be "moving forward." Here
comes the tricky part....
In doing so, the inevitable "difficult questions" are bound to pop up from
curious parents. And from our elected representatives. Accountability. We
see these questions arising now with PLANS and the court system in
California. Is anthroposophy a "religion" and if so - is this religion in
the classroom and why is Steiner revered by anthroposophists and/or Waldorf
teachers and what on earth did he mean with his many lectures on
reincarnation, race (advancing and declining) , the future war, etc. In
short, when Waldorf "tells it like it is...." there will be a million more
"difficult questions." Each question deserves an answer. From what I have
seen so far, the questions are labeled "difficult" because few people are
able to answer them in a language that means anything to those who seek
answers. Therein lies the problem with "moving forward."
Still, however, I feel optimistic that by taking small steps (a la
re-working the Waldorf FAQ's with an experienced Waldorf teacher) we can
begin to heal old wounds and hopefully... hopefully... hopefully... move
forward. And then - who knows what might happen? Many parents might be
fine with the deeply spiritual nature of the traditional Waldorf model and
might be willing to accept the answers given them by well intentioned
anthroposophists. Eugene Schwartz seems to believe this as does Waldorf
Critic, Lisa. Correct me if I am mistaken, Lisa. So there might well be an
influx of anthro-inspired families flocking to Waldorf schools, but because
of the new-and-improved marketing campaign, many other families might stay
clear of such a spiritual place. The open discussion of temperaments, the
reality of Eurythmy, wet-on-wet painting, the anthro inspired curriculum,
etc. might just turn many families who would otherwise have fallen for the
old "arts based nonsectarian school, Steiner the scientist, eurythmy the
dance..." away from Waldorf before they step in the door (threshold).
Where do these families turn? They sought much of what their anthro
partners were looking for in some ways - low stress, no marks, media savvy,
healthy food, natural playthings, outdoor play... community. When Waldorf
decides to speak openly of anthroposophy and it's place in the schools, the
Waldorf doors will swing wide open to those seeking such an education for
their children. Here's where I get excited. I wonder if other doors will,
by virtue of Waldorf's integrity and "movement," open for a new and exciting
system of schooling based on what many of us were drawn to Waldorf for in
the first place? That is what would constitute "moving forward" in my view.
Thanks for asking, Peter.
-Walden
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1294
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Forwarded by Christine - Not a Fairy Tale
By nmfoss hotmail.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 08:44:38 -0500
From: "Nicole Foss" (nmfoss hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Forwarded by Christine - Not a Fairy Tale
Christine sent an article about nap time at school for 4-year olds.
Nicole: My older two children attended state school in the UK when they were that age. Reception class
(kindergarten, age 4) was a full day programme and no one would have considered introducing a nap time into it. Children got their sleep at home. Nurseries would have a nap time for younger children who needed it, but children would not have to nap if they weren't tired. Mine weren't interested and would have been upset if someone had tried to make them have a sleep they didn't need. I don't believe they have a nap time anymore in state kindergartens here in Canada either, but the children are older (age 5) and the programme is generally only half-day. They did have a nap time in kindergarten when I was there decades ago and I regarded it as excrutiatingly boring having to lie there for a long time when I wasn't tired.
My youngest daughter attended Waldorf kindergarten for two years in Canada and they did have a nap time. She was not amused and would get into trouble if she didn't lie still. On the rare occasions when she did fall asleep, it would throw off her whole routine and she wouldn't go to sleep at home until very late. Then she really would be tired the next day.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1295
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Dottie and honesty
By feetapparel hotmail.com
Re: Dottie and honesty
By bangus nb.sympatico.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 21:09:49 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Dottie and honesty
G'day Walden,
I have been pondering your third way for Steiner, that is rather than him
being dishonest or intellectually dishonest, he really did believe what he
was saying was the correct thing in the Warmth Course, and in the lecture on
Einstein in from "Elephants to Einstein".
I'd like to treat the two lectures separately. Let me talk about Lecture 2
of the "Warmth Course" first. One of the problems with the material in this
lecture I have dealt with before, that is that Steiner claims that the
expansion of a material in one direction obeys an equation linear in
temperature. It is important to Steiner's argument that only the linear term
exists because the existence of a higher order term in temperature would
remove the difference he claims exists between gases and solids. I claim
that it was well known that the expansion of any material contained these
higher order terms, which were often but not always neglected in practical
applications because they are small. Either Steiner was aware of this (for
example by being aware of the work of van der Waals and Guillaume) or he was
not. If he was not, why wasn't he? It's not as if this was information held
in some arcane and not very important branch of physics. The fact is that
van der Waals won the Nobel Prize for his work in this area in 1910, and
Guillaume in 1920. This is famous physics. Today, it is common to hear the
name of van der Waals in physics and chemistry. Today, Guillaume's name is
much less well known than van der Waals, but an alloy he invented (or played
a part in inventing), Invar, is widely used in applications such as lasers
and tuning forks. For Steiner to be unaware of their work, so that he could
honestly say what he is recorded as saying, means that he must have not kept
up for some decades with what was happening in a subject on which he felt
comfortable giving a series of lectures. One might imagine that one might
check some recent texts or have a look at some of the current scientific
publications before giving such a set of lectures if one was approaching the
task with some intellectual rigour. This is bringing me back to intellectual
dishonesty. If he did know about it, why did he say what he did? The only
explanations I have for this is that he was dishonest and was satisfied that
he was misleading and deceiving his audience, or he did not understand it.
In the Einstein lecture in "From Elephants to Einstein", Steiner
demonstrates that he does know something about Einstein's Special Theory of
Relativity and General Theory of Relativity. The dishonest part is that he
belittles the theory by suggesting that it is ludicrous that Einstein could
suggest that a person could travel without being aware of the exertions
associated with that travel. The reality is that it is not ludicrous, and
Einstein and others had thought this through very carefully. Why would
Steiner belittle this work? Is it because he wished to appear greater than
Einstein in the eyes of his audience? What I find most interesting is that
the question that spawned this lecture was asked some days before the
lecture was given. Perhaps Steiner had forgotten that he was asked the
question and this is the best he could do off the cuff. Alternatively, since
he had had some days to think about what he wanted to say, perhaps what is
in the lecture is precisely what he wanted to say. Perhaps he didn't
understand Einstein well enough to be able to give an accurate lecture on
this topic either.
If we are to exclude dishonesty, then I think the only conclusion that fits
the facts is that Steiner didn't understand what he was talking about either
in the "Warmth Course" or in the lecture on relativity in "From Elephants to
Einstein". I am not convinced this is a more comforting answer for disciples
of Steiner than should be the explanation of dishonesty. If a lack of
understanding is the explanation, one might profitably wonder what else he
did not understand.
I find it difficult to exclude dishonesty because of Steiner's advice to
teachers to be dishonest about the true nature of the purpose of Waldorf
education. Evidently, honesty was a virtue which Steiner believed could be
sacrificed for another supposedly greater good, the furtherance of
Anthroposophy. Since he gave this advice to teachers, I wonder if he also
felt he could be dishonest in his dealings with his followers in the pursuit
of this goal.
One might also wonder if his present day supporters have taken his advice
and are prepared to use dishonesty as an appropriate tool to further
Anthroposophy.
See you, Peter
_________________________________________________________________
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http://www.ninemsn.realestate.com.au
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 19:38:07 -0400
From: "Bruce Angus" (bangus nb.sympatico.ca)
Subject: Re: Dottie and honesty
Peter wrote: "Evidently, honesty was a virtue which Steiner believed could be sacrificed for another supposedly greater good, the furtherance of Anthroposophy."
This is a correct observation. Regarding honesty and Anthroposophy: Anthroposphy itself is constructed on a semi-honest premise of sorts. Actually, "hidden truth" is a more accurate and kinder way of putting it, given that protecting secrets in a mystical organization can be an appropriate response and even sacred responsibility. Few anthroposophists, for example, are aware that Anthroposophy was RS's attempt to initiate a neo-Catholic mystical initiation stream. In fact, the individual who assumed RS's place as spiritual head of this neo-Catholic Order, turned to Catholicism in his later years.
I believe one reason anthroposopohical individuals are reluctant to recognize RS as a "guru" has to do with the fact that in some ways his role was much closer to that of a papal figure. Again, this is a mostly unconscious response on the part of the general anthroposophical population. None of this is mentioned in teacher training or in Waldorf circles, and it's taken me twenty years of involvement and research to uncover this for myself. I assume these realities are discussed at the higher-up levels of the movement.
Message to Walden - Hi Steve. Thanks for your understanding ways. I've been waiting to reply to you (The Founder of Anthroposophy post) but my last submission never appeared on the WC board. Any antipathy I have these days has mostly to do with ideas that contribute to what I've come to identify as hate-consciousness. Odd that we (thankfully) no longer openly ridicule an individual's race, gender or lifestyle, but it's sure fine to deconstruct someone's particular faith, and therefore undermine their personal soul development and spiritual growth.
Anthroposophy emphasizes the concept of "moral versus immoral" paths of spiritual development. From my perspective, that in itself is a fairly unenlightened approach to things divine. But mix in all the damage that supposedly takes place as a result - karmically and with regards to the evolution of the spiritual hierarchies - and now you've got the recipe for hate cake with fear frosting.
I'm traveling many roads these days, including the Taoist path. Taoism doesn't have a messiah figure, avatar, guru or over-being - human or divine - that we're asked to look up to. Enlightenment is an individual affair having to do with self-awareness and personal choice. And funnily, Taoism doesn't recognize sin, or evil really. There's only correct and less correct, depending on the degree to which one is listening to and acting from the heart. And for that matter, even less correct choices are correct in their own right - there really is no "wrong". Take care.
Bruce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1296
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Dottie and honesty
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Dottie and honesty
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: Dottie and honesty
By bangus nb.sympatico.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 21:17:31 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Dottie and honesty
Peter Farrell, you wrote:
)Let me talk about Lecture 2 of the "Warmth Course" first. One of the
)problems with the material in this lecture I have dealt with before,
)that is that Steiner claims that the expansion of a material in one
)direction obeys an equation linear in temperature. It is important
)to Steiner's argument that only the linear term exists because the
)existence of a higher order term in temperature would remove the
)difference he claims exists between gases and solids. I claim that
)it was well known that the expansion of any material contained these
)higher order terms, which were often but not always neglected in
)practical applications because they are small. Either Steiner was
)aware of this (for example by being aware of the work of van der
)Waals and Guillaume) or he was not. If he was not, why wasn't he?
)It's not as if this was information held in some arcane and not very
)important branch of physics. The fact is that van der Waals won the
)Nobel Prize for his work in this area in 1910, and Guillaume in
)1920. This is famous physics. Today, it is common to hear the name
)of van der Waals in physics and chemistry. Today, Guillaume's name
)is much less well known than van der Waals, but an alloy he invented
)(or played a part in inventing), Invar, is widely used in
)applications such as lasers and tuning forks. For Steiner to be
)unaware of their work, so that he could honestly say what he is
)recorded as saying, means that he must have not kept up for some
)decades with what was happening in a subject on which he felt
)comfortable giving a series of lectures. One might imagine that one
)might check some recent texts or have a look at some of the current
)scientific publications before giving such a set of lectures if one
)was approaching the task with some intellectual rigour. This is
)bringing me back to intellectual dishonesty. If he did know about
)it, why did he say what he did? The only explanations I have for
)this is that he was dishonest and was satisfied that he was
)misleading and deceiving his audience, or he did not understand it.
I don't think he understood it. He was not a scientist; he didn't
read scientific journals; he may not have been aware of who won the
Nobel prizes. I think he was just lazy and lectured based on his
high-school-level knowledge to his followers who would, obviously,
swallow anything he said.
)In the Einstein lecture in "From Elephants to Einstein", Steiner
)demonstrates that he does know something about Einstein's Special
)Theory of Relativity and General Theory of Relativity. The dishonest
)part is that he belittles the theory by suggesting that it is
)ludicrous that Einstein could suggest that a person could travel
)without being aware of the exertions associated with that travel.
)The reality is that it is not ludicrous, and Einstein and others had
)thought this through very carefully. Why would Steiner belittle this
)work? Is it because he wished to appear greater than Einstein in the
)eyes of his audience? What I find most interesting is that the
)question that spawned this lecture was asked some days before the
)lecture was given. Perhaps Steiner had forgotten that he was asked
)the question and this is the best he could do off the cuff.
)Alternatively, since he had had some days to think about what he
)wanted to say, perhaps what is in the lecture is precisely what he
)wanted to say. Perhaps he didn't understand Einstein well enough to
)be able to give an accurate lecture on this topic either.
I see a couple of possibilities here; one is that he simply didn't
understand Einstein either, despite Einstein having published a
popular explanation of his theory. It's quite possible Steiner only
read some newspaper commentaries about Einstein's theory.
The other possibility is anti-Semitism. He ridiculed Einstein because
he taught materialistic science, what was ten years later referred to
as "Jewish science."
I remember when "Goethean scientist" Dennis Klocek lectured at the
San Francisco Waldorf School. Making an emphatic point, he knocked on
a wooden desk and said that Einstein would say it was made of atoms.
Why did he name Einstein? Either Klocek didn't know that Einstein had
little to do with the development of that knowledge, or he was using
Einstein as a generic example of a materialistic scientist...
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 00:39:04 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Dottie and honesty
Hi Bruce,
You wrote:
) I believe one reason anthroposopohical individuals are reluctant to
recognize RS as a "guru" has to do with the fact that in some ways his role
was much closer to )that of a papal figure. Again, this is a mostly
unconscious response on the part of the general anthroposophical population.
None of this is mentioned in teacher )training or in Waldorf circles, and
it's taken me twenty years of involvement and research to uncover this for
myself. I assume these realities are discussed at the )higher-up levels of
the movement.
I suspect the papal/Steiner concept is more of a given and not necessarily
at "higher-up levels."
) Message to Walden - Hi Steve. Thanks for your understanding ways.
The pleasure is mine. I do try to "understand." Interesting word, huh?
)I've been waiting to reply to you (The Founder of Anthroposophy post) but
my last submission never appeared on the WC board. Any antipathy I have
these )days has mostly to do with ideas that contribute to what I've come to
identify as hate-consciousness. Odd that we (thankfully) no longer openly
ridicule an )individual's race, gender or lifestyle, but it's sure fine to
deconstruct someone's particular faith, and therefore undermine their
personal soul development and )spiritual growth.
Hhhmm... I am trying to read between the lines here, Bruce. As for
deconstructing someone's particular faith and undermining what one might
perceive to be their personal soul development, I wonder if that might have
more to do with the attackee's perception of the "deconstruction" as opposed
to the intent behind the process? I might be way off base vis a vis your
statement but allow me an observation/analogy:
The chaplain has a word or two with the soldiers prior to the invasion. One
of the troops asks about morality, religion and war. The chaplain
reprimands the young pup for questioning his faith. Or...
The New Age mom/wife decides to follow her dream ("there is a personal
reason...") and leaves her hubby and kids for a long walkabout - taking most
of the family money to a tropical paradise because she honestly feels the
need to respect a particular dream (as well as a bunch of New Age books) in
order to fill part of her life. There is no logical reason for the trip -
Hubby, kids and friends try to reason with mom but she is ... gone. Hubby
is compelled to think of it in terms of "faith." He questions her faith.
I think it entirely appropriate to question another person's faith when that
faith involves the well being of community - family, army or Waldorf school.
If I am completely missing your point, Bruce, please let me know.
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 06:57:32 -0400
From: "Bruce Angus" (bangus nb.sympatico.ca)
Subject: Re: Dottie and honesty
"I think it entirely appropriate to question another person's faith when that faith involves the well being of community - family, army or Waldorf school. If I am completely missing your point, Bruce, please let me know."
Hi Steve - I was simply responding to Christine's original observation regarding the anthroposophical premise of moral versus immoral spiritual development. In my opinion, criticizing, judging and deconstructing other religious or spiritual paths is a fear-driven activity, and it's hate consciousness. Take care.
Bruce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1297
-- Topica Digest --
honest
By feetapparel hotmail.com
Re: Dottie and honesty
By feetapparel hotmail.com
honesty
By feetapparel hotmail.com
Re: honesty
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 01:19:23 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: honest
I note Dottie has expressed unease about her name appearing in the subject
line. I meant to remove it in my last reply and I forgot. So perhaps whover
feels like responding could change the subject if they feel it is
appropriate to respect Dottie's wish.
Peter
_________________________________________________________________
SEEK: Now with over 50,000 dream jobs! Click here:
http://ninemsn.seek.com.au?hotmail
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 01:05:09 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Dottie and honesty
Bruce Angus wrote:
)
)Hi Steve - I was simply responding to Christine's original observation
)regarding the anthroposophical premise of moral versus immoral spiritual
)development. In my opinion, criticizing, judging and deconstructing other
)religious or spiritual paths is a fear-driven activity, and it's hate
)consciousness. Take care.
)
Peter F. responds:
It is not necessarily either of these things. Instead it may be morally
unavoidable. There are many examples of the consequences of somebody
following their spiritual path coming into conflict with others following
their spiritual path. Some examples include the arguments about the teaching
of evolution in schools, the arguments about prayer and the mention of god
or God in various places by the US Government and its agencies, concern by
various bystanders when some religious affiliations limit some medical
treatment, particularly for children, genital mutilation, the treatment or
mistreatment of women in some religions, religious terrorism, religious war.
In many of the cases I have listed it is appropriate to criticise, judge and
deconstruct religious or spiritual paths, and these activities might not be
fear driven or hate consciousness.
In the case of Antrhroposophy we have been told many times by many people
(falsely I believe) that it is not a religion.
See you, Peter
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 07:59:47 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: honesty
Walden wrote some time ago:
I suppose I would think the movement is moving forward when I clearly see
"movement." And not in and out movement of the Waldorf revolving door where
parents sign up and leave wondering what just happened. Real movement.
When those who promote Waldorf Education realize how very important it is
for parents and students to understand what they will be involved with in
the school and "tell it like it is." That will be "moving forward." Here
comes the tricky part....
Peter F. responds:
Isn't it true that Anthroposphists would have to recognise that Steiner
asked them to do something immoral in order to move in this direction? Would
they not have to deny Steiner's encouragement of them to be dishonest in
their dealings with parents?
If what I am suggesting in these questions is correct, wouldn't also follow
that a whole lot of questioning of what Steiner wrote and said would also
follow?
See you, Peter
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Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 00:52:04 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: honesty
) Peter F. responds:
)
) Isn't it true that Anthroposphists would have to recognise that Steiner
) asked them to do something immoral in order to move in this direction?
Would
) they not have to deny Steiner's encouragement of them to be dishonest in
) their dealings with parents?
) If what I am suggesting in these questions is correct, wouldn't also
follow
) that a whole lot of questioning of what Steiner wrote and said would also
) follow?
Yes. And that is "movement." Imagine how much doo doo hit the fan when
Eugene Schwartz spoke of such things at Sunbridge College some years back.
Dan Dugan spoke and then it was a master Waldorf teacher telling the world
that Waldorf needs to come clean with it's message. *That* is movement:
http://www.waldorfcritics.com/active/articles/schwartz.html
The aftermath of such a candid look at the Waldorfian navel was not what I
would label part of the solution, but at least Mr. Schwartz spoke his truth
and people listened. Or they heard. I understand not everyone felt
comfortable *hearing* the message. It's easier to simply shoot the
messenger. Change is not always easy. But change is inevitable. Call it
"Karma" if it helps.
The question of morality is a slippery slope. Is it immoral to sell
cigarettes or other drugs (legal or otherwise)? Is it immoral to support a
war (or a particular war)?
Is it immoral to tell teachers that since you are clairvoyant and are
connected to the Akashic Record you know that *they* were chosen to help
incarnate children's souls for a better future - and *they* might need to
undo what a parent has done in order to facilitate this incarnation?
"Morality" leaves us debating forever while "honesty" seems a better bet
whilst seeking common ground. In any case, you're right Peter - there needs
to be a whole lot of questioning of what Steiner wrote and said. And that's
a good thing. IMO.
-Walden
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1298
-- Topica Digest --
Re: honesty
By bangus nb.sympatico.ca
RE: Dottie and honesty
By diana.winters verizon.net
Re: honesty
By bangus nb.sympatico.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 08:21:30 -0400
From: "Bruce Angus" (bangus nb.sympatico.ca)
Subject: Re: honesty
Peter wrote: "Isn't it true that Anthroposphists would have to recognise that Steiner asked them to do something immoral in order to move in this direction? Would they not have to deny Steiner's encouragement of them to be dishonest in their dealings with parents?"
Walden wrote: "The question of morality is a slippery slope. 'Morality' leaves us debating forever while 'honesty' seems a better bet whilst seeking common ground."
Waldorf schools that are truly interested in issues of world community, and simply honouring the natural and rhythmical in life, celebrate an Equinox festival near the end of September. Schools that are strictly focused on their task as Steiner/Waldorf spiritual/religious centers, hold a Saint Michael gathering.
With one exception, the schools I came across weren't forthcoming at all regarding the background info. Anthroposophists believe Rudulf Steiner was clairvoyant, and the curriculum is his psychic construction. All of that needs to be clearly outlined in school information packages and in parent/teacher discussions, and before the parents enroll their children.
Those are two identifiable questions the sides in this debate could look at together. Ask: 1.Why do you hold festivals honouring religious deities? 2. Why doesn't your school openly advertise Steiner's psychic clairvoyance? Morality versus honesty discussions are cyclical arguments that always come down to individual perspective. Same goes for name-calling: liar, lazy, deceitful, unintelligent, etc.
Bruce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 08:18:35 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters verizon.net)
Subject: RE: Dottie and honesty
Bruce:
)criticizing, judging and deconstructing other religious or spiritual paths
)is a fear-driven activity,
As I did on anthroposophy_tomorrow, I'll be the one to admit to "fear" in
this department. Fear is sometimes appropriate. It can be misplaced, of
course, but in response to the examples Peter F. mentioned, for instance,
fear is certainly the appropriate response, and a motivation to act - to
protest, to advocate etc.
I think it is fine, indeed a civic duty, like voting, to "deconstruct" and
"criticize" religions and spiritual paths, as they are often very public
activities with very public consequences and effects on society. They
shouldn't be "off limits" to public discussion any more than politics, art,
education, medicine, technology, etc. It's progress for this taboo to break
down finally. (And I don't think anyone's "personal soul development" is
adversely affected by public discussion of religious doctrines.)
Diana
)Peter F. responds:
It is not necessarily either of these things. Instead it may be morally
unavoidable. There are many examples of the consequences of somebody
following their spiritual path coming into conflict with others following
their spiritual path. Some examples include the arguments about the teaching
of evolution in schools, the arguments about prayer and the mention of god
or God in various places by the US Government and its agencies, concern by
various bystanders when some religious affiliations limit some medical
treatment, particularly for children, genital mutilation, the treatment or
mistreatment of women in some religions, religious terrorism, religious war.
In many of the cases I have listed it is appropriate to criticise, judge and
deconstruct religious or spiritual paths, and these activities might not be
fear driven or hate consciousness.
In the case of Antrhroposophy we have been told many times by many people
(falsely I believe) that it is not a religion.
See you, Peter
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 11:16:08 -0400
From: "Bruce Angus" (bangus nb.sympatico.ca)
Subject: Re: honesty
Diana wrote: "I think it is fine, indeed a civic duty, like voting, to "deconstruct" and "criticize" religions and spiritual paths, as they are often very public activities with very public consequences and effects on society. They shouldn't be "off limits" to public discussion any more than politics, art, education, medicine, technology, etc. It's progress for this taboo to break down finally. (And I don't think anyone's "personal soul development" is adversely affected by public discussion of religious doctrines.)"
Again, cyclical morality/honesty discussions, and comments regarding another's personal way of being in the world - the soul development comment above, for example - are fine for the internet. However, a substantive dialogue between the two sides seems in order, and the first questions put to the Waldorf movement could be: 1.Why do you hold festivals celebrating religious, and religion-specific, icons? 2. Why doesn't your school openly advertise and discuss Steiner's psychic clairvoyance?
I'm not suggesting any answers would be immediately forthcoming. The Waldorf movement is fairly rock-solid with regards their particular beliefs and perspectives, just as the members of this forum seem to be. But there are questions to be asked - and questions can be asked in a particular way - that can and will open the door, first to understanding and then to change.
Bruce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1299
-- Topica Digest --
Re: honesty
By bangus nb.sympatico.ca
Re: honesty
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: honesty
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: honesty
By feetapparel hotmail.com
Re: honesty
By snell gv.net
RE: honesty
By spectmore yahoo.com
Re: honesty
By bangus nb.sympatico.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 08:51:33 -0400
From: "Bruce Angus" (bangus nb.sympatico.ca)
Subject: Re: honesty
I just e-mailed the following letter to Maryann Maslan of the Times-Herald, Vallejo. Difficulties and differences are simply opportunities for clarification. I have no idea if Waldorf Critics want to heal things, or simply undo everything Steiner and Waldorf. That's a concern when I post here, although I don't lose any sleep over it or anything. I feel I also need to add I've come across maybe a half-dozen teachers in twenty years that would actually admit there are issues that require addressing. And that's just as sad to contemplate although, again, I wake up rested each morning.
Re: Benicia school board holds forum on possibilities of charter school -
"Dugan said that Waldorf schools become religious schools, and as a former parent of a Waldorf student, he questioned curriculum based on the founding principals of Steiner."
Charter school member Katie Berryhill assured the board that the school was "not based on any religion, (nor) will any dogma be taught." "This is a public school!" Berryhill said.
Hello Maryann Maslan,
I'm an accredited Waldorf teacher who taught for twelve years. FYI - just in case you happen to be interested! - Dan Dugan and Kate Berryhill are both correct, and both less correct. (I'm a bit of a Taoist fellow these days - no "incorrect" in Taoism.)
Steiner's Anthroposophy is the philosophical foundation of Waldorf thought regarding child and human development. At the beginning of his autobiography, Steiner states that Anthroposophy, in all its aspects, is an investigation into Christ.
Anthrophosophy is not taught in Waldorf schools. Its profoundly Christian expressions, however, do find their way into many areas of the curriculum and school community development. Raphael's painting of the Madonna is hung in the kindergarten classroom of every school. Each school celebrates festivals throughout the year than honor particular, exclusively Christian icons. Every September 29, for example, Waldorf schools celebrate the festival of Saint Michael.
I'm not teaching now, because I couldn't find any colleagues who simply wanted to celebrate the unobtrusive Equinox at the end of September! And that's the sort of thing so many parents really only want, and what people like Dan Dugan are maybe upset about. [Note, and I didn't include this in the letter to Maryann: I have no idea if Dan Dugan is upset or, if he is, what might be upsetting him.]
I will add that, in my mind, Kate Berryhill's statement of "not based on any religion" is as close as it gets to untruth. Christianity is not taught, but the teachers themselves hold dynamically Christianized world views and perspectives. Steiner actually called it Cosmic Christianity: a new, stronger and clearer vision of Christianity.
Anyway, my thoughts. Take care.
Bruce Angus
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:39:57 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: honesty
Hi Bruce,
I'm delighted to see your posts here and to know that you are doing
something express your views on Waldorf education - views from an
experienced Waldorf teacher. I suspect you are not in as small a minority
as you might think regarding those views; it seems very difficult for
Waldorf teachers to speak out and even more difficult for them to be heard -
especially with their fellow faculty members. As is often the case (in my
experience) parents are not the only ones to live with a Waldorf *sense* of
community. What real community does not allow individuals to share feelings
and express themselves unless those feelings coincide with the words of a
dead Austrian mystic? An ex Waldorf teacher once told me I would "not
believe what goes on at faculty meetings." Yes, I would believe. It must
be very frustrating.
You wrote:
)I just e-mailed the following letter to Maryann Maslan of the Times-Herald,
Vallejo. Difficulties and differences are simply opportunities for
clarification. I have no )idea if Waldorf Critics want to heal things, or
simply undo everything Steiner and Waldorf. That's a concern when I post
here, although I don't lose any sleep over )it or anything.
I don't know if lumping "Waldorf Critics" together is the best way to look
at this subject. My bet is you would find some pretty diverse views on
Waldorf from people who call themselves "Waldorf Critics." Not every person
critical of Waldorf is a member of PLANS. Not every Waldorf Critic wants to
"undo everything Steiner and Waldorf." Actually, I am pretty sure this is
not the PLANS position either. I know a theosophist who is very critical of
Waldorf Schools because he believes the schools are not careful enough to
attract people who have a clear understanding of anthroposophy. He was very
upset that Waldorf does not even mention "reincarnation, soul work, etc." in
their outreach material or during the initial interviews with parents. He
was extremely upset that most parents had NO IDEA what anthroposophy even
*meant* during the first few meetings in grade one. While he and I look at
life from very different angles, I completely agree with him in his
criticism of Waldorf.
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 22:43:38 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: honesty
Thank you, Bruce, not only for taking the time to send the letter to a
reporter and for posting it here, but also for the respectful and honest way
you communicated what you wanted to say.
One more thing: I am one of those Waldorf critics you reference below, and I
think I speak for most of us when I say that we decidedly do *not* aim to
"undo" Waldorf or any other of Anthroposophy's outward manifestations, for
that matter!
Our goals in publicly criticizing Waldorf are several-fold. One, we want
Waldorf schools and the people who promote them (and that includes teachers)
to be honest and forthright about Waldorf's entanglement with Anthroposophy.
We want *every* parent considering Waldorf for his or her child to
understand that Anthroposophy and its tenets and teachings are central to
what goes on in a Waldorf school. (I think of Anthroposophy as the spine, or
framework, that holds up the body of a Waldorf school. Almost everything
about Waldorf is based on that spine/framework/scaffold.) I believe, and I
know other critics agree with me, that if Waldorf schools were more
forthright about being Anthroposophical schools, two good things would
happen: parents like me, who do not feel comfortable with Anthroposophy and
its teachings, would stay away. And secondly, enrollment at Waldorf schools
would skyrocket. I truly believe that.
Most of us also strongly believe that because Waldorf schools are
Anthroposophical schools, they do not belong in the US public school system.
We believe that this is a breach of the Constitutionally guaranteed
separation of church and state.
To reiterate: no Waldorf critic I know of wishes that there were no Waldorf
schools in the world! On the contrary, most of us are extremely respectful
of the notion that every individual human being has the right to his or her
own faith path/religion/point of view/spirituality and the right to practice
and express this themselves and to pass those beliefs and points of view on
to their children, both by their own teaching and tradition and through
their choice of schools.
We ask only that religious observances and teachings and approaches be kept
out of US public schools (and I strongly believe the court will rule that we
are correct in this!) and that Waldorf schools be open and forthright about
their relationship to Anthro. That would be a win-win situation, imo.
Lisa
) From: Bruce Angus (bangus nb.sympatico.ca)
) Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 08:51:33 -0400
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Subject: Re: honesty
)
) ===========================================================
) Are you looking for savings on products you use everyday?
) Visit Quality Health today and see the coupons, free
) samples and special offers our members enjoy each and
) everyday.
) http://click.topica.com/caab3ozb1dkiGb1IpcOa/ Ivo Interactive
) ===========================================================
)
)
) I just e-mailed the following letter to Maryann Maslan of the Times-Herald,
) Vallejo. Difficulties and differences are simply opportunities for
) clarification. I have no idea if Waldorf Critics want to heal things, or
) simply undo everything Steiner and Waldorf. That's a concern when I post here,
) although I don't lose any sleep over it or anything. I feel I also need to add
) I've come across maybe a half-dozen teachers in twenty years that would
) actually admit there are issues that require addressing. And that's just as
) sad to contemplate although, again, I wake up rested each morning.
)
)
) Re: Benicia school board holds forum on possibilities of charter school -
)
) "Dugan said that Waldorf schools become religious schools, and as a former
) parent of a Waldorf student, he questioned curriculum based on the founding
) principals of Steiner."
)
) Charter school member Katie Berryhill assured the board that the school was
) "not based on any religion, (nor) will any dogma be taught." "This is a public
) school!" Berryhill said.
)
)
)
)
)
) Hello Maryann Maslan,
)
)
)
) I'm an accredited Waldorf teacher who taught for twelve years. FYI - just in
) case you happen to be interested! - Dan Dugan and Kate Berryhill are both
) correct, and both less correct. (I'm a bit of a Taoist fellow these days - no
) "incorrect" in Taoism.)
)
)
)
) Steiner's Anthroposophy is the philosophical foundation of Waldorf thought
) regarding child and human development. At the beginning of his autobiography,
) Steiner states that Anthroposophy, in all its aspects, is an investigation
) into Christ.
)
)
)
) Anthrophosophy is not taught in Waldorf schools. Its profoundly Christian
) expressions, however, do find their way into many areas of the curriculum and
) school community development. Raphael's painting of the Madonna is hung in the
) kindergarten classroom of every school. Each school celebrates festivals
) throughout the year than honor particular, exclusively Christian icons. Every
) September 29, for example, Waldorf schools celebrate the festival of Saint
) Michael.
)
)
)
) I'm not teaching now, because I couldn't find any colleagues who simply wanted
) to celebrate the unobtrusive Equinox at the end of September! And that's the
) sort of thing so many parents really only want, and what people like Dan Dugan
) are maybe upset about. [Note, and I didn't include this in the letter to
) Maryann: I have no idea if Dan Dugan is upset or, if he is, what might be
) upsetting him.]
)
)
)
) I will add that, in my mind, Kate Berryhill's statement of "not based on any
) religion" is as close as it gets to untruth. Christianity is not taught, but
) the teachers themselves hold dynamically Christianized world views and
) perspectives. Steiner actually called it Cosmic Christianity: a new, stronger
) and clearer vision of Christianity.
)
)
)
) Anyway, my thoughts. Take care.
)
)
)
)
)
) Bruce Angus
)
)
) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
)
) ===========================================================
) **** Bounces like rubber! Shatters like ceramic! ****
) Discover Crazy Aaron's Thinking Putty in grown up
) handfuls. It's the creativity unleashing, mood enhancing
) desk toy!
) http://click.topica.com/caab4CEb1dkiGb1IpcOf/ Crazy Aaron Enterprises
) ===========================================================
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New
) threads are always welcome.
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 05:23:54 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: honesty
Lisa responded to Bruce describing at least one critics view of the aims of
some of the critics. I agree with that view but I have an additional
motivation. I believe that the substance of Anthroposphical medicine and
Biodynamic agriculture is demonstrably incorrect and the continued use of
both of these is positively harmful. I think this also applies to most if
not all of the scientific pronouncements which have come out of
Anthroposophy and from Steiner, and to the extent that anyone takes any
notice of them they should be argued against.
I think Dan probably shares this aim with me but few other critics care.
See you, Peter
_________________________________________________________________
Find love today with ninemsn personals. Click here:
http://ninemsn.match.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 22:46:38 -0800
From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
Subject: Re: honesty
On Thursday, March 25, 2004, at 04:51 AM, Bruce Angus wrote:
) I just e-mailed the following letter to Maryann Maslan of the
) Times-Herald, Vallejo. Difficulties and differences are simply
) opportunities for clarification. I have no idea if Waldorf Critics want
) to heal things, or simply undo everything Steiner and Waldorf. That's a
) concern when I post here, although I don't lose any sleep over it or
) anything.
I hear from Waldorf teachers frequently. In my opinion, this is the
population that is the most duped. I witnessed the abuse personally, and
I heard of so much more...
) I feel I also need to add I've come across maybe a half-dozen teachers
) in twenty years that would actually admit there are issues that require
) addressing. And that's just as sad to contemplate although, again, I
) wake up rested each morning.
I'm weighing in to say I've heard from many more teachers and I'm happy
to confirm there are many Waldorf teachers who feel like you. The big
fat elephant is in the middle of the room and it's being stepped over.
Well, many Waldorf teachers *are* noticing and trying to do something
about it. This is very good news, from where I sit. Glad to see another
who is joining the cause.
Debra
)
)
) Re: Benicia school board holds forum on possibilities of charter
) school -
)
) "Dugan said that Waldorf schools become religious schools, and as a
) former parent of a Waldorf student, he questioned curriculum based on
) the founding principals of Steiner."
)
) Charter school member Katie Berryhill assured the board that the school
) was "not based on any religion, (nor) will any dogma be taught." "This
) is a public school!" Berryhill said.
)
)
)
)
)
) Hello Maryann Maslan,
)
)
)
) I'm an accredited Waldorf teacher who taught for twelve years. FYI -
) just in case you happen to be interested! - Dan Dugan and Kate
) Berryhill are both correct, and both less correct. (I'm a bit of a
) Taoist fellow these days - no "incorrect" in Taoism.)
)
)
)
) Steiner's Anthroposophy is the philosophical foundation of Waldorf
) thought regarding child and human development. At the beginning of his
) autobiography, Steiner states that Anthroposophy, in all its aspects,
) is an investigation into Christ.
)
)
)
) Anthrophosophy is not taught in Waldorf schools. Its profoundly
) Christian expressions, however, do find their way into many areas of
) the curriculum and school community development. Raphael's painting of
) the Madonna is hung in the kindergarten classroom of every school. Each
) school celebrates festivals throughout the year than honor particular,
) exclusively Christian icons. Every September 29, for example, Waldorf
) schools celebrate the festival of Saint Michael.
)
)
)
) I'm not teaching now, because I couldn't find any colleagues who simply
) wanted to celebrate the unobtrusive Equinox at the end of September!
) And that's the sort of thing so many parents really only want, and what
) people like Dan Dugan are maybe upset about. [Note, and I didn't
) include this in the letter to Maryann: I have no idea if Dan Dugan is
) upset or, if he is, what might be upsetting him.]
)
)
)
) I will add that, in my mind, Kate Berryhill's statement of "not based
) on any religion" is as close as it gets to untruth. Christianity is not
) taught, but the teachers themselves hold dynamically Christianized
) world views and perspectives. Steiner actually called it Cosmic
) Christianity: a new, stronger and clearer vision of Christianity.
)
)
)
) Anyway, my thoughts. Take care.
)
)
)
)
)
) Bruce Angus
)
)
) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
)
) ===========================================================
) **** Bounces like rubber! Shatters like ceramic! ****
) Discover Crazy Aaron's Thinking Putty in grown up
) handfuls. It's the creativity unleashing, mood enhancing
) desk toy!
) http://click.topica.com/caab4CEb1dkiGb32c4Mf/ Crazy Aaron Enterprises
) ===========================================================
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
) basic. New threads are always welcome.
)
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 08:37:19 +0000
From: (spectmore yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: honesty
I ~mostly~ agree with Lisa as well, Peter, and I may be making a WC
un-read fool of myself here,
BUT can you briefly give your case against biodynamics in terms of how
they are harmful?
I am curious because if we agree with Lisa and leave them to their
'thing', how is bio-dyn "harmful"? Just wondering.
Best,
Jeanne
Peter Farrell wrote:
)
) Lisa responded to Bruce describing at least one critics view of the aims
) of
) some of the critics. I agree with that view but I have an additional
) motivation. I believe that the substance of Anthroposphical medicine and
)
) Biodynamic agriculture is demonstrably incorrect and the continued use
) of
) both of these is positively harmful. I think this also applies to most
) if
) not all of the scientific pronouncements which have come out of
) Anthroposophy and from Steiner, and to the extent that anyone takes any
) notice of them they should be argued against.
) I think Dan probably shares this aim with me but few other critics care.
) See you, Peter
)
) _________________________________________________________________
) Find love today with ninemsn personals. Click here:
) http://ninemsn.match.com
)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 06:05:18 -0400
From: "Bruce Angus" (bangus nb.sympatico.ca)
Subject: Re: honesty
Thanks for the kind words, folks. Steve, often when reading your posts over the last couple of years, I've gotten a sense of you as one of those disenchanted parents I used to feel so much empathy for. They were more often than not the ones with that primal spark of Waldorf-inspired understanding: the happy and heart-felt intentions for their children, along with the warm and welcoming insights regarding community development. I'm talking here about actual community development: the inclusive, cooperative kind. De-enchantment is another way of describing this, and most of the schools I worked at would lose a bucketful of these parents every year.
Some schools are attempting to initiate new directions in the realm of community development, although I would doubt that number would be any higher than 2%. The other 98% follow the three-fold Steiner path of course. This to me is the source and cause of most of the issues at hand. Waldorf teachers aren't trained or prepared to lead and guide a community.
And regardless, the need happens to be the other way around anyway. To be truly effective, teachers require the strength, support and guidance of the parent body. I personally don't consider teaching to be much more than helping parents instruct and direct their children. Parents in a Steiner-directed school are shut out of that process, and the result is often individual family, and sometimes general community, heartbreak.
And I see now the backlash and the issues being raised have come about as a result of teachers adhering to Steiner's school administration indications. A functional system strives to identify issues of concern, and have the collective convene to address and resolve them. Steiner's hierarchical system (of the worst kind - spiritual superiority) gives teachers the opportunity to simply morph into audacious evaders and ostentatious avoiders, whenever the real world and its issues come calling. And that has a mostly shameful, but occasionally comic, irony to it given all the talk and emphasis on developing and renewing the social-spiritual in society.
I appreciate all the clarification regarding Waldorf Critics, by the way. I had an interesting response: I identified and heard real human beings behind those remarks. That might sound like an odd statement, but a helpful counter-picture here might be the e-mail I received some time ago: "Bruce - why are you conversing with THEM?" Also, I reread my original comments, and they sound a bit accusatory this morning. I definitely wasn't trying for that. Take care.
Bruce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1300
-- Topica Digest --
review of Black Sun
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By bangus nb.sympatico.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 09:39:33 -0600
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: review of Black Sun
Hello critics,
last year we had several discussions of the recent book by Nicholas
Goodrick-Clarke, Black Sun. Below is a review of Black Sun by Martin Lee,
who is himself the author of a worthwhile book on the resurgence of
neo-fascism, The Beast Re-Awakens. The original review can be found at the
website of the Southern Poverty Law Center:
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=94
Peter Staudenmaier
From UFOs to Yoga
A new book explores the bizarre fringes of National Socialism, past and
present
By Martin A. Lee
Black Sun:
Aryan Cults, Esoteric Nazism, and the Politics of Identity
By Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke
New York: New York University Press, 2002, 369 pp., $29.95
George Lincoln Rockwell, leader of the American Nazi Party until his violent
death in 1967, gushed about having had a mystical experience when he first
read Hitler's Mein Kampf. "I realized that National Socialism [was] actually
a new religion," said Rockwell, who considered April 20th the holiest day of
the calendar year.
That's when neo-Nazis around the world celebrate Hitler's birthday at
secretive gatherings with Aryan shrines, devotional rituals, white power
regalia, and other racialist kitsch.
These annual conclaves are akin to religious ceremonies where true believers
worship Hitler as an infallible diety whose every utterance is gospel.
The bizarre quasi-religious and mythic elements that proliferate in sectors
of the contemporary neo-Nazi milieu are explored by Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke
in his important, new book Black Sun: Aryan Cults, Esoteric Nazism, and the
Politics of Identity.
Although there has always been a theocratic strain in fascist movements,
several factors are contributing to a latter-day, "folkish" (or tribal)
revival among white youth who are beset by an acute sense of
disenfranchisement in Western societies.
In response to the challenges of globalization, multiculturalism, and
large-scale Third World immigration, neo-Nazi racism in the United States,
Europe and elsewhere has sometimes morphed into what the author describes as
"new folkish religions of white identity."
This neo-folkish resurgence — reminiscent of some early Nazi ideas —
encompasses a hodgepodge of anti-Semitic neo-Pagan sects, Christian Identity
churches, skewed variants of eastern mysticism, occult influences, New Age
conspiracies, and Satanists into the "black metal" music subculture.
Goodrick-Clarke, a British scholar who writes in an engaging and accessible
style, has long foraged on the farther shores of right-wing extremist
politics.
His first book, The Occult Roots of Nazism, is a masterful study of a much
sensationalized subject — racist groups in early 20th century Austria that
embraced forms of mystical nationalism and helped incubate Aryan racial
ideas.
Building on his previous work, Goodrick-Clarke draws a parallel in Black Sun
between folkish ferment in Hitler's Austria and the role of today's
marginalized neo-Nazi sects, many of which have repackaged Aryan racism in
new forms influenced by eastern religions.
A crucial difference, the author maintains, is the shift from the virulent
German nationalism of the Third Reich to a broader racist ideology of global
white supremacy.
"It is highly significant that the Aryan cult of white identity is now most
marked in the United States," says Goodrick-Clarke, adding that American
neo-Nazi groups behave like persecuted religious sects preparing for the
final confrontation with a corrupt world.
Although each have their specific eccentricities — ranging from anti-Semitic
Christian Identity churches to anti-Christian, racist Odinist groups —
almost all of them espouse millenarian visions of a white racial utopia.
Satan Meets the Führer
Early American neo-Nazi James Madole, who rejected Christianity as a
degenerate Jewish construct, became a key figure in developing bizarre forms
of fascism after he founded the National Renaissance Party, the first U.S.
neo-Nazi organization, in 1952.
Although he never attracted many followers, Madole became known as "the
father of postwar occult fascism" by saturating his ideology with a
mish-mash of science-fiction and other notions drawn from eastern traditions
and theosophy, a mystical religious movement originating in late 19th
century America.
During the 1960s and 1970s, Madole's party cultivated close links with a
Church of Satan spin-off — an alliance that anticipated the recent emergence
of a violent, international fringe network devoted to Nordic gods, black
magic, occultism and devil worship.
David Myatt, chief representative of Nazi Satanism in Great Britain, defends
human sacrifice and praises a new wave of satanic black metal Skinhead bands
that spout demented lyrics and anti-social rants.
Myatt's "religion of National Socialism" owes much to Savitri Devi, the
grand dame of postwar neo-Nazism, who had traveled from her native France to
India as a young woman. An admirer of the racist caste system, Devi immersed
herself in early Hindu texts.
Noting that the Nazi swastika is also an ancient, mystical Indian symbol,
she romanticized the Third Reich as "the Holy Land of the West." Devi was
the first Western writer to acclaim Hitler as a spiritual "avatar," a
supernatural figure who pointed the way toward a future Aryan paradise.
The Jews, whom Devi blamed for all the world's suffering and alienation,
were predictably pegged as the main obstacle on the path to the Golden Age.
Devi's obsession with the pre-Christian origins of Indo-European culture was
shared by Julius Evola, an Italian Nazi philosopher whose racial theories
were adopted and codified by Mussolini in 1938.
Calling for a "Great Holy War" to battle national and ideological enemies,
Evola exerted a significant influence on a generation of militant neofascist
youth in postwar Italy.
Among his protégés were leaders of right-wing terrorist organizations linked
to numerous bomb attacks from the 1960s to the 1980s. Evola's mystical
fascist writings include books on Zen Buddhism, yoga, alchemy, Tantrism (a
kind of sexual mysticism), and European paganism.
After he died in 1974, his esoteric musings were rediscovered by New Age
publications. Today, many of Evola's books are available in English
translation in trendy New Age bookstores in the United States, despite his
status as an avowed fascist.
UFOs, Polar Bases and the Black Sun
Another influential figure in the occult-fascist underground is Miguel
Serrano, a former Chilean diplomat and Nazi die-hard who touts yoga,
meditation, and hallucinogenic drugs as ways of raising consciousness in
order to make contact with higher Aryan intelligence.
Serrano blends exotic oriental religious themes with dubious lore about
secret religious societies. He likens the Nazi SS — which was condemned in
its entirety for war crimes — to an order of initiates seeking the Holy
Grail.
This notion appealed to Wilhelm Landig, an Austrian SS veteran and postwar
Nazi activist who coined the idea of the "Black Sun," a mystical energy
source allegedly capable of regenerating the Aryan race.
Goodrick-Clarke credits Landig with reviving the folkish — and far out —
Germanic mythology of Thule, the supposed Arctic homeland of the ancient
Aryans, in order to prophesy the recovery and resurrection of Nazism as an
earth-conquering force.
Landig and other occult-fascist propagandists have circulated wild stories
about German Nazi colonies that live and work in secret installations
beneath the polar icecaps, where they developed flying saucers and miracle
weapons after the demise of the Third Reich.
The abundance of UFO sightings, which began in the early 1950s, is
attributed to the amazing prowess of Nazi science and technology.
The fall of the Third Reich is cast merely as a temporary setback; at any
moment, a battalion of Nazi extraterrestrials could zoom forth in their
magical discs to deliver Aryan folk from the ills of democracy and
Judeo-Christian decadence.
A hot item among New Age conspiracy theorists and promoters of Holocaust
denial, stories about Nazi UFOs may seem ludicrous to anyone with their feet
firmly planted on terra firma. And, certainly, this kind of thinking does
not dominate even the contemporary world of the extreme right.
But these sci-fi legends underscore, in the words of Goodrick-Clarke, how
"Aryan cults and esoteric Nazism posit powerful mythologies to negate the
decline of white power in the world."
Moreover, if the past is any kind of prologue, these bizarre, new religious
sects "may be early symptoms of major divisive changes in our present-day
Western democracies."
"The risks of race religiosity are great. ... Whenever human groups are
interpreted as absolute categories of good and evil, light and darkness,"
Goodrick-Clarke cautions, "both the human community and humanity itself are
diminished."
A timely warning, indeed.
_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now!
http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 23:23:56 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: honesty
Peter,
Quickly, let me say that I personally am alarmed by much of what I know
about Anthromedicine; it is certainly NOT something I would choose for
myself or my loved ones, and if someone asked me what I thought about it, I
would recommend them stay away.
However, I feel the same way about numerous other so-called "alternative"
health approaches, too. They, too, are (as you call them) demonstrably
incorrect in many ways.
Would I want to outlaw them, though? No, I would not. I would ask only that
people be well informed when making their choices. Part of that -- an
important part! -- would entail the practitioners of these alternative
methods giving out real and honest information about what they do and don't
do.
Lisa
) From: Peter Farrell (feetapparel hotmail.com)
) Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 05:23:54 +0000
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Subject: Re: honesty
)
) ===========================================================
) Are you looking for savings on products you use everyday?
) Visit Quality Health today and see the coupons, free
) samples and special offers our members enjoy each and
) everyday.
) http://click.topica.com/caab3ozb1dkiGb1IpcOa/ Ivo Interactive
) ===========================================================
)
) Lisa responded to Bruce describing at least one critics view of the aims of
) some of the critics. I agree with that view but I have an additional
) motivation. I believe that the substance of Anthroposphical medicine and
) Biodynamic agriculture is demonstrably incorrect and the continued use of
) both of these is positively harmful. I think this also applies to most if
) not all of the scientific pronouncements which have come out of
) Anthroposophy and from Steiner, and to the extent that anyone takes any
) notice of them they should be argued against.
) I think Dan probably shares this aim with me but few other critics care.
) See you, Peter
)
) _________________________________________________________________
) Find love today with ninemsn personals. Click here:
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) ===========================================================
) **** Bounces like rubber! Shatters like ceramic! ****
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) desk toy!
) http://click.topica.com/caab4CEb1dkiGb1IpcOf/ Crazy Aaron Enterprises
) ===========================================================
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New
) threads are always welcome.
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 23:24:55 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: annoying ads in Topica posts
Is anyone else annoyed by these stupid ads that are now running on the top
of our posts?
Dan, do you know why this is happening with Topica? I don't see this on my
yahoogroups lists ...
Lisa
) From: Bruce Angus (bangus nb.sympatico.ca)
) Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 06:05:18 -0400
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Subject: Re: honesty
)
) ===========================================================
) **** Bounces like rubber! Shatters like ceramic! ****
) Discover Crazy Aaron's Thinking Putty in grown up
) handfuls. It's the creativity unleashing, mood enhancing
) desk toy!
) http://click.topica.com/caab4CEb1dkiGb1IpcOa/ Crazy Aaron Enterprises
) ===========================================================
)
)
) Thanks for the kind words, folks. Steve, often when reading your posts over
) the last couple of years, I've gotten a sense of you as one of those
) disenchanted parents I used to feel so much empathy for. They were more often
) than not the ones with that primal spark of Waldorf-inspired understanding:
) the happy and heart-felt intentions for their children, along with the warm
) and welcoming insights regarding community development. I'm talking here about
) actual community development: the inclusive, cooperative kind. De-enchantment
) is another way of describing this, and most of the schools I worked at would
) lose a bucketful of these parents every year.
)
)
)
) Some schools are attempting to initiate new directions in the realm of
) community development, although I would doubt that number would be any higher
) than 2%. The other 98% follow the three-fold Steiner path of course. This to
) me is the source and cause of most of the issues at hand. Waldorf teachers
) aren't trained or prepared to lead and guide a community.
)
)
)
) And regardless, the need happens to be the other way around anyway. To be
) truly effective, teachers require the strength, support and guidance of the
) parent body. I personally don't consider teaching to be much more than helping
) parents instruct and direct their children. Parents in a Steiner-directed
) school are shut out of that process, and the result is often individual
) family, and sometimes general community, heartbreak.
)
)
)
) And I see now the backlash and the issues being raised have come about as a
) result of teachers adhering to Steiner's school administration indications. A
) functional system strives to identify issues of concern, and have the
) collective convene to address and resolve them. Steiner's hierarchical system
) (of the worst kind - spiritual superiority) gives teachers the opportunity to
) simply morph into audacious evaders and ostentatious avoiders, whenever the
) real world and its issues come calling. And that has a mostly shameful, but
) occasionally comic, irony to it given all the talk and emphasis on developing
) and renewing the social-spiritual in society.
)
)
)
) I appreciate all the clarification regarding Waldorf Critics, by the way. I
) had an interesting response: I identified and heard real human beings behind
) those remarks. That might sound like an odd statement, but a helpful
) counter-picture here might be the e-mail I received some time ago: "Bruce -
) why are you conversing with THEM?" Also, I reread my original comments, and
) they sound a bit accusatory this morning. I definitely wasn't trying for that.
) Take care.
)
)
)
) Bruce
)
)
) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
)
) ===========================================================
) Menthol Smokers Only! Click on the link below and
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) ===========================================================
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New
) threads are always welcome.
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 05:54:35 +0000
From: simon etchell (simonetchell f2s.com)
Subject: plain clothes
My sons both still attend a small steiner kindergarten and its, I think
fairly relaxed in its approach usually. We've never been given any
'guidelines' or requests about the clothes the children must wear but we
are aware of the usual thing of plainish clothes without commercial
logos being the norm in the main schools but I stress we have never been
told this or been given a letter.
Last week we were in a real rush one morning and Grandma had just
arrived and bought both boys aged 4 and 5 and a half a gift of a new T.
shirt, ( one was a simpsons picture I think ) they were excited and put
it straight on (with a plain black cardigan on top, zipped up )We were
late and had to head out quickly with no time to change)
When our childminder arrived at the kindergarten at 12.30 to collect the
boys they were wearing old plain T. shirts with short sleeves from the
dressing up box. The older childs top was much too small and he was
cold and a bit embarrassed. The teacher told my childminder she had
changed their tops because their's weren't 'appropriate' and to tell us
not to send them in 'logo-ed' clothes. The next day another boy who is
nearly 7 and a very big boy was sent home in a top that would fit a 3
year old cos he had come in wearing a sweatshirt with a tiny 'skull'
logo (just cheap sweat-wear, very common for boys in the UK))
How would you react to this ?
simon
hoping for truth
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 23:54:55 -0800
From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
Subject: Re: plain clothes
Err, I'd respond like a mother eagle, I'm afraid. Projecting humiliation
and shame on kids this age is sooo not OK. It changes who they are. That
said, this is not a battle that is winnable. (Is this a real word?) If
you want to preserve your boys' identities and who they are coming to
be, you need to leave. Unfortunately, there are many more changes in
store. Changes that may alter who they really are.
Debra
On Friday, March 26, 2004, at 09:54 PM, simon etchell wrote:
)
) My sons both still attend a small steiner kindergarten and its, I think
) fairly relaxed in its approach usually. We've never been given any
) 'guidelines' or requests about the clothes the children must wear but we
) are aware of the usual thing of plainish clothes without commercial
) logos being the norm in the main schools but I stress we have never been
) told this or been given a letter.
)
) Last week we were in a real rush one morning and Grandma had just
) arrived and bought both boys aged 4 and 5 and a half a gift of a new T.
) shirt, ( one was a simpsons picture I think ) they were excited and put
) it straight on (with a plain black cardigan on top, zipped up )We were
) late and had to head out quickly with no time to change)
)
) When our childminder arrived at the kindergarten at 12.30 to collect the
) boys they were wearing old plain T. shirts with short sleeves from the
) dressing up box. The older childs top was much too small and he was
) cold and a bit embarrassed. The teacher told my childminder she had
) changed their tops because their's weren't 'appropriate' and to tell us
) not to send them in 'logo-ed' clothes. The next day another boy who is
) nearly 7 and a very big boy was sent home in a top that would fit a 3
) year old cos he had come in wearing a sweatshirt with a tiny 'skull'
) logo (just cheap sweat-wear, very common for boys in the UK))
)
) How would you react to this ?
) simon
)
) hoping for truth
)
) ===========================================================
) Menthol Smokers Only! Click on the link below and
) register to receive up to $50 in savings from one of
) America's leading menthol brands.
) http://click.topica.com/caab4S3b1dkiGb32c4Mf/ Lorillard
) ===========================================================
)
) ==^================================================================
) You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how
) basic. New threads are always welcome.
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 16:36:11 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Lagunitas approves Waldorf school
Point Reyes Light - March 25, 2004
http://www.ptreyeslight.com/stories/mar25_04/lagunitas_waldorf.html
Lagunitas approves Waldorf school
By Ivan Gale
Trustees of the Lagunitas School District on Tuesday agreed to create
a Waldorf-inspired program for the upcoming school year. With Trustee
Denise Bohman abstaining, the other four trustees approved the
proposal after nearly three hours of debate.
Bohman, meanwhile said more information was needed about the
program's impacts to the school budget before she could make a
decision.
The decision means the parents of some 20 children who have lobbied
the district to create the program can now enroll their
kindergarten-aged children in Lagunitas School District in the fall.
Proposal failed in Ross
Most parents who do not live within the district asked the Ross
Valley School District to create a Waldorf-inspired program there
last year, but the proposal failed by a narrow margin.
Trustees, parents lobbying for the program, and other members of the
audience grappled with issues about the religious and old-world
curriculum overtones in the program.
They also discussed how the program would affect the school's
administrative structure.
The parent group in support of the school helped dispel rumors about
Waldorf schools: that students cannot use the color black because it
is an "evil color;" that de-programming centers exist in Europe for
former Waldorf students; that students are taught about Christian
saints and the Old Testament; and that children are labeled under the
"four humours."
The Medieval belief that the four humours is tied to both the four
seasons and the four elements, was emphasized by Waldorf creator,
20th century Austrian social philosophy Rudolf Steiner.
In some private-school Waldorf programs it is alleged children are
classified as being either yellow bile, black bile, phlegm, or blood,
with the phlegmatic children having to sit in the back of the class.
Antiquated programs no longer
But Fairfax resident Anastazia Sheldon, who helped organize the
parent lobbying group, said under no circumstances would these
antiquated notions and religious themes be part of the Lagunitas
program.
"There is a spiritual bent in some private [Waldorf] schools that you
cannot have in a public school setting," said Sheldon, who lobbied
the trustees so she could enroll her twin daughters at the new
Waldorf-inspired kindergarten class.
"What we'd like to do is keep the methodology, but change some of the
curriculum," she said, noting that some of the spiritual ideas and
"fuzzy science" in Waldorf programs would be inappropriate for
Lagunitas.
She proclaimed cheekily, "we decided at the [parent] committee last
night that we do not discriminate against black crayons."
Instead of venerating saints and teaching the Old Testament, Sheldon
said other historical role models would be taught in the classroom,
as well as creation myths from around the world.
Despite the rumors about Waldorf's old-world curriculum Sheldon said
creating public school Waldorf programs "has been done before - it's
not like we're reinventing the wheel."
But descriptions about Waldorf being about developing the "whole
child" and following rhythmic, artistic, and musical themes proved
too vague for some residents.
Woodacre resident Suzanne Sadowski said she could find "no difference
whatsoever" when she compared the goals Waldorf and the Montessori
share.
"It's very hard to understand the nuances between the programs," she
said, and also questioned why the Waldorf program would limit
students' use of computers.
District changes
Waldorf schools, she was told by members of the audience, generally
steer clear of computers and television exposure because they do not
encourage younger children to be creative and free-thinking.
In spite of some inconsistencies, trustees in favor of the new school
said a new program and new students would help counteract the
District's declining enrollment.
The lone abstaining voter, Trustee Denise Bohman, told The Light
Wednesday she would have preferred another meeting to discuss the
ramifications of adding a new program.
"My feeling is that adding a program is a great idea but I think that
I'm the cautious one," she said. "We have some other large financial
commitments that we need to deal with."
Supt. Mary Buttler told The Light she is compiling a list of issues
that need to be addressed to see the program get started. The
district must hire a Waldorf-accredited teacher, accept
inter-district transfers, and find out how the program will affect
the district's seniority list and budget.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 23:57:20 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Anthroposophical Society likely to decide next week on further
steps in legal action over constitution
Copyright 2004 News Network Anthroposophy Limited. All rights reserved.
The following material may be republished without
the prior consent of News Network Anthroposophy.
News Network Anthroposophy does, however, require
acknowledgement of the source and, if provided,
the author of the material.
+ + + + +
NNA-N E W S
Anthroposophical Society likely to decide next
week on further steps in legal action over
constitution
By Christian von Arnim
Dornach, 26 March (NNA) - The executive council
of the General Anthroposophical Society (GAS) in
Dornach, Switzerland, is likely to decide next
week whether or not to appeal against a court
ruling in the dispute over the existence of the
reactivated "General Anthroposophical Society
(Christmas Conference)".
The Dorneck-Tierstein municipal court last month
ruled that the so-called Christmas Conference
Society no longer existed and should be removed
from the commercial register. This has put the
planned fusion of the GAS with the Christmas
Conference Society on hold until the case is
finally settled.
The GAS council has not yet reached a final
decision as to its further action because it
wants to discuss the situation with
representatives from the national
anthroposophical societies from around the world
who are meeting in Dornach next week.
A press release from the Society said that
currently no decision had been taken as to
"whether or not to proceed with the appeal which
we lodged with the Solothurn superior court
within the required deadline on a precautionary
basis."
"We do not want take a premature decision. We
are, of course, working hard on the matter but
also feel the need to take the time to discuss it
with the general secretaries," council member
Paul Mackay told NNA.
In a letter to members, to be published in the
next issue (28 March) of the members' newsletter
"Was in der Anthroposophischen Gesellschaft
vorgeht", the council sets out the background to
its deliberations. The conclusions of the
Dorneck-Tierstein municipal court could not be
accepted from the perspective of the executive
council because "too many factual and legal
questions" remained unresolved.
Referring to the resolutions adopted at several
general meetings of the GAS and the Christmas
Conference Society with overwhelming majorities
to resolve the constitutional issue, the
executive council writes: "We feel obliged as the
executive council to maintain the direction on
which we are embarked and which has been affirmed
by members - unless a change of direction is
unavoidable, historically and spiritually
justified and supported by the members. But such
a change of direction requires a firmer basis
than the present ruling by the municipal court."
The lengthy letter adds: "That is our obligation
in respect of the Anthroposophical Society, which
was given a form by Rudolf Steiner appropriate to
meeting the needs of the anthroposophical
movement. This form, which combines the esoteric
element with full accessibility, is unique; it is
not something historical or static but in a
constant state of development with an orientation
towards the future. It is therefore also our
endeavour to establish a connection to this form
with regard to the legal status of the society
under association law."
Furthermore, not just the executive council but
the whole of the membership had been dragged into
this court case due to the fact that a few
members refused to accept the decision of the
general meeting of December 2002 reactivating the
Christmas Conference Society and had initiated
legal action against it: "We, for our part, wish
to make clear beyond a shadow of doubt that it is
not our wish to engage in this dispute through
the courts."
If the executive council decides against pursuing
an appeal, it can expect to have to pay total
costs of 116,400 Swiss francs (¤75,000;
US$92,100). Should it appeal and win, the
plaintiffs will be responsible for costs.
According to the press release, the executive
council intends make special provisions to cover
any costs arising in the event that the Solothurn
superior court confirms the judgement of the
lower court. Overall, provision is being made in
2004 for possible costs in the order of 150,000
Swiss francs (¤96,700; US$118,700).
In the end, however, the executive council does
not want to make money the key factor in deciding
whether to proceed with the appeal. "We are very
much aware and in agreement with many members
that these legal proceedings do nothing to
support the life within the Anthroposophical
Society. But we are also aware that the time has
come to find a solution to the issues connected
with the constitutional process which is in
harmony with the nature of our society. In this
way we wish to lend vigorous support to future
developmental opportunities in the spirit of the
impulse of the Christmas conference," the
executive council said in its letter to members.
END/cva
+ + + + +
Item reference number: N040326-01EN
Date: 26 March 2004
More NNA reports at: http://www.nna-news.org/content/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 08:03:59 +0000
From: madpark (madpark nildram.co.uk)
Subject: Re: plain clothes
Just reading your post made me very angry...imagine how those children felt
at being made to wear someone else's t-shirts...how humiliating for them...a
great example of Waldorf child centered education.
My daughter had a similar situation at Michael Hall school when she was in
class 4, she had been given a t-shirt by her american aunt she thought was
very cool and was made to turn it inside out and humiliated for wearing it,
she was very angry when she came home and told me she had seen her teacher
wearing a t-shirt with a logo on the previous weekend. I telephoned him to
be given an unintelligent lecture on what "coca cola" was doing to the rain
forests and "levi's was doing to little children in china, he also said that
his t-shirt had an "acceptable" logo and he wasn¹t teaching at the time he
wore it. The games kit at Michael Hall had a Michael Hall logo sewn on so we
ended up having a big argument about "acceptable" logo's; but all of that
was irrelevant it would have been ok to tell me he didn¹t want her to wear
that t-shirt or in fact tell her, but to make her take it off and turn it
inside out in front of the class and wear it all day like that was totally
unacceptable, she is 16 now and hasn¹t forgotten it, its on her list of
'Michael Hall greviances' along with being treated like babies, not being
allowed to play football in the playground, calling "comma's" tadpoles, not
being allowed to play either her keyboard or electric guitar in the class 5
concert, being bored senseless in the main lessons and many others...
My sons both still attend a small steiner kindergarten and its, I think
) fairly relaxed in its approach usually. We've never been given any
) 'guidelines' or requests about the clothes the children must wear but we
) are aware of the usual thing of plainish clothes without commercial
) logos being the norm in the main schools but I stress we have never been
) told this or been given a letter.
)
) Last week we were in a real rush one morning and Grandma had just
) arrived and bought both boys aged 4 and 5 and a half a gift of a new T.
) shirt, ( one was a simpsons picture I think ) they were excited and put
) it straight on (with a plain black cardigan on top, zipped up )We were
) late and had to head out quickly with no time to change)
)
) When our childminder arrived at the kindergarten at 12.30 to collect the
) boys they were wearing old plain T. shirts with short sleeves from the
) dressing up box. The older childs top was much too small and he was
) cold and a bit embarrassed. The teacher told my childminder she had
) changed their tops because their's weren't 'appropriate' and to tell us
) not to send them in 'logo-ed' clothes. The next day another boy who is
) nearly 7 and a very big boy was sent home in a top that would fit a 3
) year old cos he had come in wearing a sweatshirt with a tiny 'skull'
) logo (just cheap sweat-wear, very common for boys in the UK))
)
) How would you react to this ?
) simon
)
) hoping for truth
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 00:20:45 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: plain clothes
Hi Simon,
Sorry if I seem crude but... LOL. A Simpsons shirt in a Waldorf
kindergarten?! Major faux pas. You ask how I would react...? I would
speak with the teacher and ask for some written guidelines. If nothing was
given or mentioned to you prior to sending your little one to the school, it
should have been. Most Waldorf schools *do* have such guidelines and
parents should be aware of such things. Food and snacks are another
important thing for parents to discuss with teachers - or vice versa. I
remember issues revolving around the "clothes police" as one of my kids used
to call a certain teacher at his Waldorf school.
As long as these guidelines are clearly explained to parents *prior* to
enrolling their child in a Waldorf school, I don't have a problem with it.
Matter of fact... I support some of these guidelines. I suspect the issue
of Bart Simpson in the kindergarten will make its way to a faculty meeting.
Have you had a home visit yet?
I'm not clairvoyant but I'd bet such a visit is in your future. Hint: Cover
the TV in a silk blanket, hide the Zeppelin CDs and break out the bees wax.
Enjoy.
-Walden
)When our childminder arrived at the kindergarten at 12.30 to collect the
)boys they were wearing old plain T. shirts with short sleeves from the
dressing up box. The older childs top was much too small and he was
cold and a bit embarrassed. The teacher told my childminder she had
changed their tops because their's weren't 'appropriate' and to tell us
not to send them in 'logo-ed' clothes. The next day another boy who is
nearly 7 and a very big boy was sent home in a top that would fit a 3
year old cos he had come in wearing a sweatshirt with a tiny 'skull'
logo (just cheap sweat-wear, very common for boys in the UK))
How would you react to this ?
simon
hoping for truth
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 00:01:52 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Santa Cruz Waldorf School makes "foundation stone"
Have a look at:
http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/archive/2004/March/14/local/stories/11local.htm
It's a dodecahedron, same as Steiner put in the Goetheanum foundation.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 00:26:05 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: (NNA) German Waldorf schools to strengthen quality assurance
Copyright 2004 News Network Anthroposophy Limited. All rights reserved.
The following material may be republished without
the prior consent of News Network Anthroposophy.
News Network Anthroposophy does, however, require
acknowledgement of the source and, if provided,
the author of the material.
+ + + + +
NNA-N E W S
German Waldorf schools to strengthen quality assurance
Frankfurt/Main, 23 March (NNA) - Waldorf schools
in the German state of Hesse intend to strengthen
their activities to enhance quality assurance.
According to the regional association (LAG) of
Waldorf schools, the "SchuB" (Schulberatung)
project to provide advice for schools will draw
together current activities of the association
and extend them by additional services.
The Waldorf schools have taken the step to
strengthen the development and use of their own
procedures for quality assurance since the
projects provided by the regional education
ministry are only partly accessible to non-state
schools and do not take account of the particular
characteristics of Waldorf schools.
The Waldorf schools also criticised plans by
Hesse's education minister, Silke Lautenschläger,
to enact standardised education plans for
kindergartens since they failed to take account
of the fact that children developed at varying
speeds.
Standardised plans would not contribute to an
improvement of quality, would make kindergartens
more like schools and increase the performance
pressure on small children who needed sufficient
"space" to develop their abilities, the schools
said.
END/cva
+ + + + +
Item reference number: N040323-03EN
Date: 23 March 2004
More NNA reports at: http://www.nna-news.org/content/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 01:07:04 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: (NNA) Third European Congress for disabled people in Prague
Copyright 2004 News Network Anthroposophy Limited. All rights reserved.
The following material may be republished without
the prior consent of News Network Anthroposophy.
News Network Anthroposophy does, however, require
acknowledgement of the source and, if provided,
the author of the material.
+ + + + +
NNA-N E W S
Third European Congress for disabled people in Prague
Berlin, 19 March (NNA) - The third congress for
disabled people is planned to take place in
Prague from 18-21 August under the motto "Living
Encounters". The organisation for this event,
which some 600 people are expected to attend, has
been underway for a year with the active
participation of disabled people.
This first congress of this type took place in
Berlin, Germany, in 1998, followed by a second
congress in Dornach, Switzerland, in 2001. More
than 500 people from a variety of European
countries attended each of these events. In
Dornach, people from 13 European countries and a
group from the US were present.
According to the organisers, this year's congress
in the Prague Congress Centre, as a forum for
communication and education, is a response to the
specific desire of disabled people to encounter
one another. Lectures, workshops, excursions,
joint meals, artistic performances, music and
dance will provide ample opportunity for this:
"Where else is it possible for disabled people to
exchange their experiences with other people in a
similar situation across frontiers?" the project
planning documentation asks.
According to the organisers, people with
so-called learning difficulties are the most
disadvantaged group of people among disabled
people even today. They were furthest removed
from a life which they could determine
themselves. Their opportunities of becoming
familiar with new things, reflecting on their own
situation in dialogue with others and making
contact with people in their own situation in
general were very restricted as a rule.
Organiser of the congress is the German "Verband
für anthroposophische Heilpädagogik,
Sozialtherapie und soziale Arbeit e.V." in
cooperation with the Curative Education and
Social Therapy Council at the Goetheanum in
Dornach, Switzerland. A preparatory group of
committed people has taken on the practical
organisational responsibility.
Since participants have few resources at their
disposal, it is planned as previously to finance
about half the cost from conference fees and the
rest from outside sources.
END/cva
(http://www.in-der-begegnung-leben.de/)www.in-der-begegnung-leben.de
(http://www.verband-anthro.de/)www.verband-anthro.de
(http://www.goetheanum.ch/khs)www.goetheanum.ch/khs
+ + + + +
Item reference number: N030419-01EN
Date: 19 March 2004
More NNA reports at: http://www.nna-news.org/content/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 05:54:11 -0400
From: "Bruce Angus" (bangus nb.sympatico.ca)
Subject: Re: plain clothes
Hi simon - I would appreciate knowing which school that is; I'd like to contact them. There are ways for teachers to respond to respond to this particular situation, and the solution you described isn't one of them.
Simon, that sort of thing is a form of abuse, and it's as real and destructive as physical abuse. I personally didn't understand what psychological abuse was until I became ill for three years. Forcing and enforcing energy, directed toward those who cannot defend themselves, is really bad stuff.
Recommendation: Let the teacher know you were and are upset. If that person doesn't appear to understand or defends their actions, inform them you will be contacting the parents via letter to fill them in on all that's transpired, including your request that it not happen to any child again. People will either support you or not, and then you'll have your answer regarding whether or not to stay with that community. Take care.
Bruce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------
==^================================================================
You can ask any question about Waldorf you like here, no matter how basic. New threads are always welcome.
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 1301
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Santa Cruz Waldorf School makes foundation stone
By flandersnswan yahoo.com
Re: plain clothes
By antigonabaires hotmail.com
Christine - I found the "I" word!
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 13:55:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Flanders (flandersnswan yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Santa Cruz Waldorf School makes foundation stone
http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/archive/2004/March/14/local/stories/11local.htm
)
) It's a dodecahedron, same as Steiner put in the
) Goetheanum foundation.
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
I find this a bit creepy, actually. Of course, this is
only a tiny news article, without much background. I
hope that the teachers were able to give the students
some idea of what the symbolism would be in burying a
dodecahedron in a foundation stone. Otherwise it feels
weird to me to have the students engaged in this
project and all the while not know about Goethe or
Steiner's architecture.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 19:44:51 -0300
From: (antigonabaires hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: plain clothes
The school my daughter used to attend in Buenos Aires is fairly strict
concerning children clothes, although it depends mostly on each particular
teacher. They always sent a note at the beginning of the school year stating
the typical guidelines. One of my daughter's best friends, whose family is
still very close to us, has just started first grade. The teacher, a true
and deeply convinced anthroposophist, has forbidden the children to wear
clothes with "any" kind of pictures in it, or those very common thick-soled
runnig shoes. The children are feeling very frustrated.
As for humilating experiences with clothes, last year, when my daughter was
four, there was a leak in the toilet and the bathroom floor was very wet. As
a consecuence, her pants and underwear got wet when she lowered them. The
teacher told her that she had not been careful and forced her to change into
boys underwear. The poor girl was SO upset. Children were laughing at her,
especially because there was girl's underwear available! And I think she was
very upset for being punished for something she was not to blame for.
Agustina
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 00:40:58 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Christine - I found the "I" word!
As I wait for Christine to begin work on our project, I finally found the
"I" word at the AWSNA site... the word that has as much to do with Waldorf
education as the word "money" has to do with the world of banking. The
word, of course, is "inacarnating." The word "reincarnation" would be fine,
as well - including a description of how the teacher views the "incarnating
child." I am, however, hopeful that this is at least a first little step
from AWSNA to help people understand the reality of Waldorf education. They
really need to work on the FAQs - but Christine and I will help them there.
I look forward to that task. Christine - you mentioned you would be willing
to begin around mid-March. Not wanting to appear pushy, but can you give me
an idea of when you would like to begin?
Trying real hard to look at my glass as being half full, I will forward one
of a very few blurbs from the AWSNA site which I see as quite helpful to
prospective parents. Much of the rest of the site - like many Waldorf
school web sites - completely misses the impulse of Waldorf education and
only helps create the confusion we so often see with students, parents and
Waldorf education. At least we see the word "incarnating"mentioned here. I
see also that the writer speaks of the "school" almost as an entity - is it
not the *people* in the school who must have a "healthy, fertile
relationship with Anthroposophy?" This comes close to telling parents what
is expected of them during their Waldorf experience - but it still needs a
little work in the area of clarity. IMO.
-Walden
From:
http://www.awsna.org/awsna-faq.html#curriculum
Establishing Study Groups
A Waldorf study group is usually founded that meets each week or every other
week. Books are studied about Waldorf Education and speakers are invited
into the community to lecture on the education. Popular books for new study
groups include the A.C. Harwood books, or one of the other overviews of
Waldorf