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-- Topica Digest --
Re: Goetheanum
By mysplum earthlink.net
Tomatis [was Re: special needs education]
By dan dandugan.com
Camphill sucking on government grants
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Tomatis [was Re: special needs education]
By dan dandugan.com
Closed windows on eurythmy lessons
By klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com
Re: Closed windows on eurythmy lessons
By Diana.Winters worldnet.att.net
Re: Camphill sucking on government grants
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: Tomatis [was Re: special needs education]
By nmfoss hotmail.com
Re: Camphill sucking on government grants
By Diana.Winters worldnet.att.net
Tobias Class
By klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com
Re: Tomatis [was Re: special needs education]
By jfk3 sprint.ca
Re: Camphill sucking on government grants
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Tomatis [was Re: special needs education]
By dan dandugan.com
Re: special needs education
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Religion in Waldorf Schools - pagan, Christian, and more - was
Re: Waldorf Sun
By willow.firesong creative-interweb.com
Re: Religion in Waldorf Schools - pagan, Christian, and more -
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: Goetheanum
By mysplum earthlink.net
RE: Religion in Waldorf Schools - pagan, Christian, and more -
By qrejy hotmail.com
Re: Goetheanum
By mysplum earthlink.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 07:27:01 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Goetheanum
Sharon: When Steiner designed his Rosicrucian/mystical temples, (I know of
four that he built) he made sure that they were astrosophically-correct.
(Steiner adapted astrology to suit his spiritual worldview and dubbed it
astrosophy). Using his reworked astrological system, he determined exactly
where the portholes in the domes of his Rosicrucian temples should be
located for the sun to shine on certain pillars at a certain time of the
year. He determined how the building was to be orientated for the best
spiritual position in the cosmos, what colors were to be used for spiritual
purposes etc. When he laid the foundation stone for his above ground
Rosicrucian temple in Malsh, he met with a gathering of followers in the
middle of the night. The same goes for the mystical temple - the Goetheanum
- in Dornach. The first Goetheanum was burnt down, but Steiner was able to
redesign a subsequent building and rebuild out of concrete with the
insurance money he received. Here's what Vreede says about the occasion of
laying the foundation stone for the First Goetheanum in 1913. Note the two
dates used:
"When Mercury Stood in Libra
The Writing of the Stars
"THE APPROACHING OPENING of the Goetheanum at Michaelmas brings before the
soul that September evening when the foundation stone of the house dedicated
to spiritual science was laid at nightfall by Dr. Steiner in a solemn
ritual. With an invocation of the hierarchies the foundation stone, the
double dodechedron, "symbol in its twofold twelvefoldedness of the striving
human soul, was sunk as microcosm into the macrocosm," let down "into the
condensed kingdom of the elements". To this stone was added the document
that contained the solemn vow of humankind toward the spiritual world. This
document closed with the words: "Laid by the Johannes Building
Association...on the twentieth day of September 1880, after the Mystery of
Golgotha, that is, 1913 after the birth of Christ, when Mercury as evening
star stood in Libra, the Balance"
With these words the foundation stone was wedded also to the starry heavens.
With a few words a definite constellation was indicated, a constellation
that was considered so significant that it appeared in the foundation-stone
document next to the names of the mighty hierarchies. In that moment, on
that spot, as into the earth the stone was sunk upon which the new
Goetheanum will rise as if on its own foundation stone, this statement was
made. We can now ask: What does it wish to tell us?"
(p121. Sept. 1928 Elizabeth Vreede. Anthroposophy and Astrology, the
Astronomical Letters of Elizabeth Vreede. Anthroposophic Press. 2001)
Sharon: Tune in tomorrow for the next exciting installment and learn exactly
where the Sun was during all of this!
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 12:22:13 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Tomatis [was Re: special needs education]
Nicole Foss, you wrote,
)Can anyone tell me what constitutes special needs education in a
)Waldorf School? My eldest daughter spends time in the Tobias class
)when her classmates have music and languages because she's partially
)hearing, but they don't seem to do anything to help her with her
)difficulties. She does a lot of craft work, which she enjoys, but
)doesn't get any help with spelling or grammar. I'm starting to worry
)that she'll fail everything when she gets to high school because she
)can't write, and yet the school advertises itself as having a
)"strong remedial program".
Aha, I think "Tobias" is "Tomatis."
The Autumn issue of *Lilipoh*, the Anthroposophical medicine magazine
for consumers (Waldorf parents), has an obituary by Dr. Andrew Franck
PhD for Dr. Alfred Tomatis, "the noted French physician who
single-handedly recast the physiology, psychology and spiritual
significance of hearing and listening in the 20th century." That's
rather high praise, wonder why the Nobel committee hasn't heard of
him... Followers of Tomatis have a web site at:
http://www.tomatis.com
Tomatis claims their therapy helps with:
Attention Deficit Disorders (ADD)
Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorders (ADHD)
Learning delays
Autism
Dyslexia
Balance and Coordination Problems
Sensory integration and motor skill difficulties
Asperger's Syndrome
Pervasive Development Disorder (PDD)
Down's Syndrome
It doesn't, however, shine shoes. The site has all the signs of
quackery. The research quoted is very thin. Tomatis is promoted by
Andrew Franck, director of The Healing Arts Center in Woodstock, NY,
http://www.healingartsonline.com
The Center offers "listening/sound therapy," though oddly he doesn't
mention the name Tomatis; the Tomatis site lists the Healing Arts as
a Tomatis Center. There are twelve licensed centers in the U.S.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 12:35:17 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Camphill sucking on government grants
Camphill Soltane, in Glenmoore, PA, which advertises itself as an
"anthroposophically based community" is soliciting workers with the
bait of $4725 AmeriCorps education awards. Camphill being about the
most Anthroposphical place you can be outside of an Anthroposophical
Society meeting, this is clearly an Establishment Clause violation.
Americorps regulations specifically prohibit "Religious Activities,
including engaging in religious instruction; conducting worship
services; providing instruction as part of a Program that includes
mandatory religious instruction or worship; constructing or operating
facilities devoted to religious instruction or worship; maintaining
facilities primarily or inherently devoted to religious instruction
or worship; or engaging in any form of religious proselytization. "
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 12:49:25 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Tomatis [was Re: special needs education]
http://www.quackwatch.com has the following item:
-Dan Dugan
***
Many types of practitioners who profess to treat mental problems are
engaged in questionable practices. The following procedures should be
avoided.
Auditory Integration Training (AIT)
AIT was developed as a treatment for autism by Guy Berard in France
in the 1960s and was introduced into the United States in 1991. It
has also been advocated for children and adults with learning
disabilities, attention deficit disorder, depression, migraine
headaches, and many other conditions. Proponents claim that
individuals with these disorders often have hearing that is
disorganized, hypersensitive, different between the two ears, or
otherwise abnormal. The first step in AIT is an audiogram that
determines the auditory thresholds to more frequencies than are
typically measured during hearing tests. Suitable individuals then
undergo "training sessions" -- typically two half-hour sessions per
day over a 10-day period -- that involve listening to music that has
been computer-modified to remove frequencies to which they supposedly
are hypersensitive. The American Academy of Pediatrics and the
American Academy of Audiology have warned that no well-designed
scientific studies demonstrate that AIT is useful [1,2]. AIT devices
do not have FDA approval for treating autism, attention deficit
disorder, or any other medical problem. In 1997, the FDA banned the
importation of the Electric Ear or any other AIT device made by
Tomatis International, of Paris, France.
References
1. American Academy of Pediatrics Committee on Children with
Disabilities. Auditory integration training and facilitated
communication for autism. Pediatrics 102:431-433, 1998.
2. Executive Committee, American Academy of Audiology. Position
statement: Auditory integration training. Audiology Today 5(4):21,
1993.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 21:26:22 +0000
From: Klaudia (klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com)
Subject: Closed windows on eurythmy lessons
I heard from one waldorf parent that windows must not be opened during
eurythmy lessons even if it's hot in the eurythmy room (and cool
outdoors) or air stinks. Reason to this:
spirits (or things like that) will fly out through opened window.
Does someone have similar or opposite experiences?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 16:33:34 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters worldnet.att.net)
Subject: Re: Closed windows on eurythmy lessons
Klaudia:
)I heard from one waldorf parent that windows must not be opened during
)eurythmy lessons even if it's hot in the eurythmy room (and cool
)outdoors) or air stinks. Reason to this:
)spirits (or things like that) will fly out through opened window.
More likely to prevent passersby, such as parents, from hearing the
complaints and outbursts and disruptions caused by the students who don't
want to do it.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 13:25:42 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Camphill sucking on government grants
Dan Dugan Wrote:
Camphill Soltane, in Glenmoore, PA, which advertises itself as an
) "anthroposophically based community" is soliciting workers with the
) bait of $4725 AmeriCorps education awards. Camphill being about the
) most Anthroposphical place you can be outside of an Anthroposophical
) Society meeting, this is clearly an Establishment Clause violation.
) Americorps regulations specifically prohibit "Religious Activities,
) including engaging in religious instruction; conducting worship
) services; providing instruction as part of a Program that includes
) mandatory religious instruction or worship; constructing or operating
) facilities devoted to religious instruction or worship; maintaining
) facilities primarily or inherently devoted to religious instruction
) or worship; or engaging in any form of religious proselytization. "
Walden: No grey or fuzzy areas here. Black and White in my books.
Has anyone contacted Americorps for a response? It does not look like an
Anthro-inspired group. Maybe they were duped.
Sound familiar?
Mirriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary
Main Entry: an…thro…pos…o…phy
Pronunciation: "an(t)-thr&-'p”-s&-fE
Function: noun
Date: 1916
: a 20th century religious system growing out of theosophy and centering on
human development
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 16:38:27 -0500
From: "Nicole Foss" (nmfoss hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Tomatis [was Re: special needs education]
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C28032.C6185A00
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Nicole: Thanks for your help. They definitely do call it the Tobias
Class at our school though. I seem to recall seeing an advertisement
for Tobias curative education in an edition of a magazine that the
school periodically sends home. I can't remember the details
unfortunately. If I see it again, I'll post the information. They may
have different names for things up here in the Great White North. :-).
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Dugan
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 3:22 PM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Tomatis [was Re: special needs education]
Nicole Foss, you wrote,
)Can anyone tell me what constitutes special needs education in a
)Waldorf School? My eldest daughter spends time in the Tobias class
)when her classmates have music and languages because she's partially
)hearing, but they don't seem to do anything to help her with her
)difficulties. She does a lot of craft work, which she enjoys, but
)doesn't get any help with spelling or grammar. I'm starting to worry
)that she'll fail everything when she gets to high school because she
)can't write, and yet the school advertises itself as having a
)"strong remedial program".
Aha, I think "Tobias" is "Tomatis."
The Autumn issue of *Lilipoh*, the Anthroposophical medicine magazine
for consumers (Waldorf parents), has an obituary by Dr. Andrew Franck
PhD for Dr. Alfred Tomatis, "the noted French physician who
single-handedly recast the physiology, psychology and spiritual
significance of hearing and listening in the 20th century." That's
rather high praise, wonder why the Nobel committee hasn't heard of
him... Followers of Tomatis have a web site at:
http://www.tomatis.com
Tomatis claims their therapy helps with:
Attention Deficit Disorders (ADD)
Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorders (ADHD)
Learning delays
Autism
Dyslexia
Balance and Coordination Problems
Sensory integration and motor skill difficulties
Asperger's Syndrome
Pervasive Development Disorder (PDD)
Down's Syndrome
It doesn't, however, shine shoes. The site has all the signs of
quackery. The research quoted is very thin. Tomatis is promoted by
Andrew Franck, director of The Healing Arts Center in Woodstock, NY,
http://www.healingartsonline.com
The Center offers "listening/sound therapy," though oddly he doesn't
mention the name Tomatis; the Tomatis site lists the Healing Arts as
a Tomatis Center. There are twelve licensed centers in the U.S.
-Dan Dugan
FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 16:44:09 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters worldnet.att.net)
Subject: Re: Camphill sucking on government grants
)Walden: No grey or fuzzy areas here. Black and White in my books.
)Has anyone contacted Americorps for a response? It does not look like an
)Anthro-inspired group.
No, definitely not, they're a public service thing for young people, you
work for a year on a stipend, sort of an at-home Peace Corps. Absolutely
should not be funneling money to anthroposophy!
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 22:36:29 +0000
From: Klaudia (klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com)
Subject: Tobias Class
Nicole Foss wrote:
They may have different names for things up here in the Great White
North. :-).
Klaudia:
There are Tobias Classes at least in Ottawa and Toronto.
End of message is just Quotes:
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.waldorfworld.net/somerset/programs.htm
THE TOBIAS CLASS
The Tobias Class is for those students experiencing emotional distress
or physical illness. The Tobias Class asks assistance from the medical
profession. School physicians prescribe therapies and medical remedies
to support the child's ailing constitution. Health is seen as the
priority and the academic program is adjusted and adapted to meet the
child's physical and emotional needs. We strive to integrate the Tobias
student into the Christopher Class and beyond.
http://www.waldorf.cyberus.ca/
For those children needing remedial and special care, a new programme
--the Tobias Class--has been inaugurated.This class will run parallel
with regular classes but will take into greater consideration the needs
of the children attending so that they will find success in the work
they do and progress at a rate with which they are comfortable.Ý
Applications now being accepted.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 06:06:33 -0500
From: "lubert das" (jfk3 sprint.ca)
Subject: Re: Tomatis [was Re: special needs education]
) Nicole Foss, you wrote,
)
) )Can anyone tell me what constitutes special needs education in a
) )Waldorf School? My eldest daughter spends time in the Tobias class
) )when her classmates have music and languages because she's partially
) )hearing, but they don't seem to do anything to help her with her
) )difficulties. She does a lot of craft work, which she enjoys, but
) )doesn't get any help with spelling or grammar. I'm starting to worry
) )that she'll fail everything when she gets to high school because she
) )can't write, and yet the school advertises itself as having a
) )"strong remedial program".
)
Dan surmised:
) Aha, I think "Tobias" is "Tomatis."
Lubert:
Possible, Dan, but I think they may have the Old Testament (Apocrypha)
story of Tobias and the Angel ---it IS one of their favorites (smells like
Parzival, alchemy, etc...).
http://www.mnemosyne.org/template_tobias_uk_0.html
http://www.kb.nl/kb/manuscripts/highlights/71PQTU_uk.html
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/KjvTobi.html
Training center to staff the nothern quackeries?:
http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Medicine/GA027_pre4.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 13:41:06 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Camphill sucking on government grants
) ) Americorps regulations specifically prohibit "Religious Activities,
)) including engaging in religious instruction; conducting worship
)) services; providing instruction as part of a Program that includes
)) mandatory religious instruction or worship; constructing or operating
)) facilities devoted to religious instruction or worship; maintaining
)) facilities primarily or inherently devoted to religious instruction
)) or worship; or engaging in any form of religious proselytization. "
)
)Walden: No grey or fuzzy areas here. Black and White in my books.
)Has anyone contacted Americorps for a response? It does not look like an
)Anthro-inspired group. Maybe they were duped.
)Sound familiar?
I've written asking where to direct my complaint.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 16:41:35 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Tomatis [was Re: special needs education]
Klaudia, Lubert Das, thank you for the links! I've added several new
terms to my glossary: Tobias Class, Christopher Class, and Parsival
Program.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 17:02:48 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: special needs education
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Nicole: I find it strange and disturbing that they consider it
threatening for people to take notes in meetings. Now that you
mention it, I have noticed that there are never any minutes taken at
community meetings. They frequently say one thing, do another and
then deny that they ever said what people heard. Without minutes,
it's hard to pin them down to anything. I suppose that must also be
why they hate having more than one or two parents at a time in a
meeting that might be contentious, so that the number of
corroborating opinions can be minimized (divide and rule).
W: Before the most important meeting I ever attended at our old
Waldorf school (a serious matter involving a teacher, myself and a
group of children) I asked and was assured that minutes would be
taken. Also, another parent at the school and (a non-Anthro *real*
facilitator) had offered to be at the meeting and was told they would
let him know the time and date. The meeting happened with no minutes
and no non-anthro facilitator (he was stunned that he had not only
been snubbed but that they had not even contacted him to say they had
changed their minds). I watched a teacher taking notes during the
meeting. The next day I asked for a copy of those minutes and was
told they had not been taken - an oversight on their part.... This
*meeting* capped some of the strangest few weeks of my life. I woke
up. So did most other families in that class and other families in
the school. Most of us left the school then. If it looks, feels and
behaves like a cult....
-Walden
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:07:20 +1030
From: Willow Firesong (Willow.Firesong creative-interweb.com)
Subject: Religion in Waldorf Schools - pagan, Christian, and more - was
Re: Waldorf Sun worship
) ) Sharon: Blowing the dust off Vreede's book so that we can all learn a tad
) ) more about the Sun that Waldorf pupils are made to worship each morning,
) ) at their mystery school, often without parental sanction.
At 29-10-02 11:18 PM Tuesday, Walden wrote:
)Thanks for these insightful tidbits, Sharon. This one is *one* of my BIG
)issues with Waldorf - for two reasons:
)(snip)
)So - they MUST share this information BEFORE we put our kids in
)the school. "Each day begins with a prayer to the SUN because the SUN is
)very important in Anthroposophy...."
)
)2) It must be made abundantly clear how the SUN and the stars and the
)planets and Atlantis. etc. but especially the SUN are so very important in
)the eyes of the Anthros and that is why our children must pray to the SUN
)each day. Had we known about this SUN worship and our children's part in
)the daily prayer we would have been prompted to dig deeper and may well have
)avoided the school in the first place.
I'm with you here, but as I'm coming from a rather different position than
many parents, with regard to the religious aspect, I'd also like them to
spell out that the SUN worship of Waldorf is also CHRIST-worship *as they
understand it*. I think that this would also be important to people in
Sharon's position - an interest in the sun can simply reflect a high value
placed on the nature world as a manifestation of reality, while the
specific mention of a religious figure is inarguably religious on its face,
without requiring a parent to understand Steiner's meaning or motivation
behind the reference.
I think it's very important to recognize this, because of the way that this
selective highlighting of aspects of the belief system is used to
deceptively market the schools as being compatible with ANY parent's
personal belief system, highlighting the Christian aspects to Christians,
the pagan aspects to pagans, the spiritual aspects to followers of various
new age belief systems, etc.:
regardless of what you believe, unless you are an Anthroposophist
yourself, Waldorf has aspects to offend against your beliefs.
I know many parents wouldn't be bothered by the Christian elements present
in Waldorf, but find the pagan elements disturbing. For me, I don't think
religion belongs in school, whether it's my religion or anyone else's (and
I spelled that out when interviewing the school representatives); HOWEVER,
I also specifically did not want for my child to be educated in a context
with JudeoChristian content or focus.
I spelled this out to the school's representatives, pointing out that I was
quite unhappy with the fact that my daughter's 6 week stint in public
school (she was pulled out for medical reasons - the chemical exposure
involved in attendance made her ill, and gave us migraine headaches each
time we went onto the school campus to pick her up or drop her off) she was
introduced to the Santa myth, and required to participate in activities
related to this and other elements of the Christmas traditions - just in
time to feel different and excluded by the fact that we don't celebrate
Christmas (a fact highlighted by the fact that here in the Southern
Hemisphere, we celebrate our most closely-related holiday (Yule) 6 months
before/after Christmas, which in turn falls a few days off from our Summer
Solstice).
As long as they do not cause a parent to object to the non-religious
curriculum elements, the religious beliefs of a child's home, parents, or
self, should NOT be relevant to their education in a school that does not
openly admit itself to be religious.
Likewise, no child should be forced to attend a religious school against
the wishes of their family. At least with the private Waldorf/Steiner
schools, this only happens in cases of divided custody; by infiltrating
the public school system, Waldorf is attempting to force this
religion-centered education down the throats of every child in a given
district.
As for the claim that it NOT religion-centered, would someone please tell
me how any non-religious school could begin each day with a religious
invocation making specific mention of an historically-questionable
individual after whom a globe-spanning religion was named? Why, if the
school is not religious, are there omnipresent references to "God", to
various "Saints", particularly "Saint Michael", to whom the children are
required to dedicate themselves, head hand and heart?? When I was a
school-child, I had my own hagiography, and would have ridiculed anyone who
tried to claim that such a dictionary of Saints was a non-religious item -
I had it because at the time I was attending an Episcopal school, and the
religious beliefs of that Christian school were represented in part by
those Saints. If Saints, then, are central to the religious beliefs of an
openly religious school, how can a school which invokes and references them
at every turn NOT be religious??
I want to handle my own children's education in comparative religion, to
ensure that they understand the nature, value, purpose, and equivalency of
myth and myth cycles from ALL of humanity's many cultures, not viewing one
set as somehow different from the others. Myth is about representing a
focal aspect of truth, not about representing it with photographic accuracy
in its every detail; like a pencil sketch, showing only the lines on which
the artist's eye was focusing, attracting the viewer's attention to the
details which the artist saw as important to conveying their intent.
I do not want my child taught any form of myth as history, science, or
other factual information. Neither Homer Simpson nor Zeus is an accurate
detailed representation of anything real; they are useful only in
entertaining us or teaching us the power of stereotypes, which in turn
comes from their accuracy in reflecting that small aspect of reality being
represented. Real people, and real history, requires a more in-depth
approach to understanding the odd mish-mash of motivations within any human
being, they cannot simply be classified as "adolescent", "spiritually
laggard", or "choleric".
If you are considering Waldorf Education for your child(ren), you need to
know that they will be taught a curriculum centered around the combination
of religious beliefs that are found in Anthroposophy - Christian, old
Germanic pagan, Zoroastrian, Hindu, etc.
If you are Christian, you need to know that there are pagan elements
throughout the school, beginning with nature altars in the kindy (rather
pretty ones, actually...). You should know that Steiner believed in a
cycle of reincarnation, rather than the more common Christian model of life
followed by death followed by an afterlife in Heaven, Hell, or possibly
Purgatory.
If you are pagan, you need to know that your child will be saying daily
invocations to a Christ-figure, and required to celebrate festivals
oriented around Christian Saints, with particular focus on Saint
Michael. You also need to know that Steiner's vaunted acceptance of your
beliefs was based on the fact that he considered you to be Christian and
just not know it, and that this will be manifested in the way that the
anthroposophically-trained Waldorf teachers will interact with you and your
child.
If you are an atheist, you need to know that your child's education will
REVOLVE around the myth cycles of various cultures, and that those myths
will not be clearly designated as non-factual information, but will instead
be inseparable from the other aspects of your child's education, in areas
ranging from history and culture to geography and biology.
Regardless of your beliefs, you need to know that unlike the normal
classroom environment (in which your children may be taught by teachers of
many different beliefs, without ever learning what those beliefs are in
most cases, because they will never come up), in Waldorf, any apparent
diversity of belief will be largely negated by the fact that the one belief
they are ALL required to hold in common is Anthroposophy.
This is an inevitable result of the fact that ALL Waldorf-trained teachers
are trained in a college which spends no time on the material to be taught,
but instead spends all two years focusing on an understanding of
Anthroposophy and its implications and demands of every aspect of child
development and the educational process (all in complete opposition to
decades of research, and focused on discouraging children from thinking,
recognizing or voicing their feelings, or bonding to their parent, a bond
which is to be replaced by the "priest-like" bond with the teacher), all
taught in a strictly-controlled, ascetic, nearly-monastic environment,
where the teachers are required to undergo intensive psychological
counseling oriented around a reincarnationist autobiography of the multiple
incarnations of their spirit.
As a result of the teaching methods used, the material taught, and the
intensive training and indoctrination of the teachers in the doctrine of
Steiner, the teachers' beliefs will pervade the school and the educational
process, as well as all of the subjects taught.
Parents WILL be "requested" to comply with school regulations in aspects of
their home life, and may be subject to in-home inspection to find out how
closely they are following the school's requirements.
When we enrolled our daughter in Waldorf, one of the points that raised our
concern (until eventually we came to add our voices to those of the critics
here) was the fact that we were *required*, as a part of the enrollment
process, to sign contracts saying that we would abide by the school's
restrictive policies *in our home life*, which included things like
restricting our child's access to ALL forms of television programming,
including the educational TV which is our primary viewing material, and
denying her access to the computers she'd been using since she was barely a
toddler (she's quite the little graphic artist by now - she LOVES paint
"games"). As explained here, those restrictions are based in the
Anthroposophical belief that electronic devices are possessed by the demon
Ahriman (I kid you not), who will in turn possess the person who uses
them. This is a religiously-based control by the school of the entire
family's home life, a degree of influence that would surprise those who see
religions as a matter of personal choice, and not as a means of controlling
the actions of others.
You should also know that your child will be medically evaluated (even for
first aid, and especially if you agree to take your child to see the
Anthroposophical doctors who often practise ON the school campus) in
accordance with these religious beliefs, and you may be asked to have them
treated by methods entirely based in those beliefs - something I can assure
you that you will NOT find in the day to day classroom life of an Episcopal
school.
Those religious beliefs will likewise supersede common sense when it comes
to meeting your child's basic needs, with regards to things like ensuring
their physical safety. Once again, the Episcopal school does not rely on
angels to supervise their playgrounds; when our child was repeatedly
injured, we found out that the Waldorf schools do, believing it wrong to
intervene in a child's "karma" to protect them, especially since each child
is believed to have an angel to protect them when it's necessary. Lack of
protection is seen as proof that the protection wasn't necessary, and the
injury was the child's karma. If we are concerned, we are told to "pray to
the children's angels to protect them" - answer that by saying "I thought
that was our job", and you are likely to be met with disapproving silent
glares, as I was, as for that matter was the teacher's assistant who let
that slip in front of a parent who did not subscribe to the beliefs on
which the school is based in its every detail.
)I have nothing against starting the day with a poem to help the kids
)settle down and feel the team spirit of the class, etc.
Personally, I think even "Rah, rah, rah, sis boom bah, YAY TEAM!" sounds
like a better idea than bringing religion into the classroom, where it
doesn't belong.
)I DO have a problem with this particular prayer be passed off
)as a "verse" with the meaning hidden from unsuspecting, well intentioned,
)trusting parents. I mean - really - who would think that a *school* do
)something like this? It is strange, immoral and simply wrong.
)-Walden
It might help in understanding this, to remember that it was not until June
the 17th, year of 1963, that the US Supreme Court made its historical
decree that prayer and Bible reading were no longer to be allowed or used
in the public schools. Prior to that, the Bible was often used to teach
reading, and the Pledge of Allegiance itself, said every morning in US
schools, made reference to God. (Now what you get, if it's recited at all,
is a weird hitch, where some say "under God", others omit it but pause, and
others simply keep going "indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all".)
Dare we to hope that the Waldorf school will lag no more than 40 years
behind in recognizing that to include these things is to make the schools
into a religious recruiting ground, which is now illegal (in the US public
schools, at least), under that very law? And, dare we to hope that they
will recognize that the reason for that fact is that it is an undue amount
of control to exert over others, particularly without the consent of their
parents, to teach them religion and an understanding of the world based in
that religious belief, when one is responsible for teaching them the most
essential information about the nature of the world in which they will have
to function for the remainder of their life?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 08:37:49 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Religion in Waldorf Schools - pagan, Christian, and more -
Sharon: Thanks again for a great post, you sure know how to wrap up the
issues.
on 10/30/02 6:37 PM, Willow Firesong at
willow.firesong creative-interweb.com wrote:
) If you are an atheist, you need to know that your child's education will
) REVOLVE around the myth cycles of various cultures,
Sharon: ...that Steiner included in his Anthroposophical pantheon. Children
will be passed through the cycles of the year as a mystery initiation. In
Waldorf schools the cycle of the year, celebrated as seasonal "festivals",
serves as a salvific Anthroposophic path of initiation leading participants
to an experience of Christ the Sun Being, and assurance that life is
everlasting. Modeled on occult beliefs stemming from Mithraic and Eleusinian
mysteries in vogue in Steiner's day, (which were not entirely historic) ,
his yearly nature cycle is designed to impart to the participant an
understanding of reincarnation - the annual round of birth, life, death and
rebirth. Uninformed parents finding themselves united in Anthroposophy will
sometimes grasp that each year the same Anthroposophic "festivals" are being
celebrated with much "reverencing". These "festivals" usually passed off as
multicultural celebrations, are rituals devised by Steiner with deep
esoteric meaning, invoking Michael and other Anthroposophic beings. For
example, each year pupils reenact the ritual of Michael slaying the dragon.
Michael is the messenger of the Sun and performs very special functions in
the celestial world. As a lesson book from our ex-school stated, "In
September Michael is near, he will help us with our fear".
) When we enrolled our daughter in Waldorf, one of the points that raised our
) concern (until eventually we came to add our voices to those of the critics
) here) was the fact that we were *required*, as a part of the enrollment
) process, to sign contracts saying that we would abide by the school's
) restrictive policies *in our home life*, which included things like
) restricting our child's access to ALL forms of television programming,
) including the educational TV which is our primary viewing material, and
) denying her access to the computers she'd been using since she was barely a
) toddler (she's quite the little graphic artist by now - she LOVES paint
) "games").
Sharon: I thought this restriction was about being selective about what
children watch. I had no idea that they meant an out and out ban, not only
on television, but slide shows, films, computers... Soon, because of peer
pressure, we were walking lock step. I studied filmmaking and the history of
film in art school! I'm crazy about documentaries and films, but there I was
going along with the program. This restriction worked as a method of
isolation, it ensured that Waldorf and Anthroposophy became your entire
world and life focus.
As you know I'm a real fan of PBS, a couple nights ago on NOVA there was an
excellent program about Galileo and his daughter. (Hope some of you saw it).
My daughter and I sat transfixed as we learned more about the age-old
conflict between science and religion, and heard the experts on Galileo
speak of the latest historic research . After the program my daughter said
to me, "Galileo is my hero". I personally feel that I'm a better person for
watching the program. The Anthro's ban on such programming is absolute
nonsense.
A child in our age who has not mastered a computer will be handicapped for
life. Bunch of rubbish to deliberately make a child disadvantaged because of
some loony religious beliefs. I'm delighted that my child is a computer wiz,
I wish I had her skills. I'm thrilled that her school places an emphasis on
teaching how to sift information critically. That is the key for living in
the information age. (End of rant (G)).
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 11:17:06 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Goetheanum
Sharon: As promised, more from Vreede about the cosmic orientation of the
Goetheanum, and the cosmic timing of the laying of the foundation stone for
the Anthro's mystical temple and world headquarters. (Traditionally, stone-
laying is a very important event for occult/Masonic believers). When
Anthroposophists get excited about Steiner's "organic architecture", know
that there is a religious subtext. Steiner has written his own script of the
stars. His stars are the outer expression of the gods and his new stars the
"remaining expression of the deeds of the gods". They are for
Anthroposophists, the manifestation of spiritual being's activity. We know
that Michael is a "Mercury Spirit", and we know who lives on the threefold
Sun....
Vreede: "Let us proceed from the purely outer constellation that is
mentioned: Mercury in Libra. If we consult an ephemeris for September 20,
1913, we find that on the same day toward eleven o'clock in the morning the
planet Mercury had passed over the celestial equator in its descent, so that
in the evening it still stood at one degree of the sign of Libra. (We are
not concerned here with the astronomical Mercury, the little red planet that
is always near to the Sun, and not with Venus who in common usage is called
"the evening star". Also here we are talking about the sign of Libra, not
the constellation Libra...
Not far from it stood the Sun, with which shortly before it had been in
conjunction. As a result of this conjunction Mercury passed over from the
west side of the Sun as morning star to the east side and became the evening
star. It was invisible to the naked eye until it was three and one-half
degrees from the Sun. Now since in Dornach the Sun on September 20 sets at
about six-thirty. (Mid-European time), Mercury was actually setting directly
on the horizon at the very moment when the laying of the foundation stone
took place. Since, however it had shortly before crossed the equator, it
stood in the autumnal point", the autumn equinox, which the Sun would not
reach until September 23. The equator, however, meets the horizon at each
specific place exactly in the east and west. The east-west line always
designates the intersection points of the celestial equator and the horizon.
Consequently, relative to the building, Mercury was standing exactly in the
west, that is, it was lying directly in line with the major axis of our very
accurately oriented Goetheanum, passing at the same time over the horizon,
with the revolution of the earth, and over the equator through its own
descending motion.
What we can thus discover from a purely astronomical point of view must
become for us a symbol and a sign, as does the foundation stone itself in
the consecration ceremony"
(p 121-122. Sept. 1928 Elizabeth Vreede. Anthroposophy and Astrology, the
Astronomical Letters of Elizabeth Vreede. Anthroposophic Press. 2001)
Sharon: It's interesting to know that Steiner distanced himself from
"regular" astrology, developing his own version. Believers wish to supplant
science with Steiner's "science", that is the goal clearly spelled out in
Vreede's book. On and on it goes.....
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 21:21:18 +0000
From: DW's Mom (qrejy hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Religion in Waldorf Schools - pagan, Christian, and more -
mysplum wrote:
) Sharon: I thought this restriction was about being selective about what
) children watch. I had no idea that they meant an out and out ban, not
) only
) on television, but slide shows, films, computers... Soon, because of
) peer
) pressure, we were walking lock step. I studied filmmaking and the
) history of
) film in art school! I'm crazy about documentaries and films, but there I
) was
) going along with the program. This restriction worked as a method of
) isolation, it ensured that Waldorf and Anthroposophy became your entire
) world and life focus.
DW's Mom:
I was raised a Jehovah's Witness from age two to age 14. JW is
absolutely a cult, and I see exactly the same restrictions within the
"Waldorf Community" that I saw in the JW community. Isolation is a key
element, and JWs tell their people to avoid TV, radio, and even not to
have ANY friends that are not JWs because they are a bad, demonic
influence. Waldorf is a cult, bottom line, and I don't want my son
being a part of it.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 06:11:16 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Goetheanum
Sharon: Here's a fascinating blurb from John Fletcher's "Art Inspired by
Rudolf Steiner". He is discussing the first Goetheanum which burnt down.
Note the power the architecture of Steiner's temple had on a person - it
could supposedly preform the future body which will resemble the
architecture of the first Goetheanum! (G) For those of you who are not
familiar with the first Goetheanum, it looked sort of like two German
helmets placed side by side.
Fletcher: "Disscussing the main aspects of the first Goetheanum,
particularly the architecture, H.S. Chase cites Rudolf Steiner's saying that
the forms and proportions preform our future bodies. In Occult Signs and
symbols this is repeated. "Those who absorbed the forces of the forms of
these buildings into their souls show the expression of their inner soul
configurations in their countenance..."
H.S. Chase tells us that for years he had pondered on how he could
understand the forms and proportions of the Goetheanum in this aspect of
preforming the body. He then quotes Carlo Pietzner who had pointed out that
the seventh apocalyptic seal embodies this same image of a transformed human
body. The seal can be superimposed on the plan of the first Goetheanum, with
the chalice and dove placed to the west (corresponding directly with the
images in the red window ) and the crystal cube in the east, centered on the
small cupola" (39. Fletcher John. Art Inspired by Rudolf Steiner. Mercury
Arts Publications, 1987).
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 862
-- Topica Digest --
Re: special needs education
By mysplum earthlink.net
special needs education
By mysplum earthlink.net
Deaf
By klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com
RE: special needs education
By qrejy hotmail.com
RE: Deaf
By qrejy hotmail.com
"I" of animals and plants
By klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com
RE: "I" of animals and plants, Lecture
By klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com
Re: Charlie...?
By charlie morrison5.fsnet.co.uk
shifting the blame to the victim : was Re: Deaf
By BarleySinger creative-interweb.com
Re: Religion in Waldorf Schools - pagan, Christian, and more -
By BarleySinger creative-interweb.com
Admin: web counter 98,954
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 08:01:11 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: special needs education
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on 10/27/02 2:48 PM, Nicole Foss at nmfoss hotmail.com wrote:
I'd love to know more about Steiner's warped opinions on these subjects in
order to understand how my children's school may be judging them (I have one
partially hearing child, one with asthma and one who's left-handed).
Sharon: I haven't found anything yet on hearing problems from Steiner, but
you should know that too much sex and sensual desire in past life will get
you pneumonia. (G). Sins in past life are punished by diseases in present
life. (Obviously hearing difficulty is not a disease). Selfishness will get
you malaria in your next life. Mentions "payback"...
http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/ManfKarma/ManKar_index.html
"Manifestations of Karma" is on line. Quoting from around last 2 pages of
lecture 4 (sorry, can't see page numbers):
Steiner: "Errors resulting from devotion to Ahriman develop into forces of
disease which affect man through his etheric body. Faults which were the
object of a moral judgement between birth and death develop into causes of
disease which work more from the astral body.
From this we see how, in fact, our errors from the ahrimanic forces within
us, including such voluntary errors as lies, etc., develop into causes of
disease, if we do not merely consider the one incarnation, but observe the
effect of one incarnation on the next. We see also how the luciferic
influences in the same way become the causes of disease, and we may in fact
say, åour errors do not go unpunished. We bear the stamp of our errors in
our next incarnation.¼ But we do this from a higher reason than that of our
ordinary consciousness ã from a consciousness which during the period
between death and a new birth directs us to make ourselves so strong that we
shall no longer be exposed to these temptations. Thus in our life, disease
even plays the part of a great teacher. If we study illnesses in this way we
shall see unmistakably that an illness is a manifestation of either
luciferic or ahrimanic influences. When these things are understood by those
who under the guidance of Spiritual Science wish to become physicians, the
influence of these healers on the human organism will be infinitely more
profound than it can be today.
We can examine certain forms of disease from this standpoint. Let us take
pneumonia for example; it is a karmic effect which follows when during his
life in kamaloca the person in question looks back to a character which had
within it the tendency towards sexual excess, and a desire to live a sensual
life.
------
"Let us take another striking instance, and so that we may perceive the
connection, we will purposely take exactly the opposite case. During the
kamaloca period, a person sees that he has acted from too strong a feeling
of self. He sees that he must be more temperate as regards this feeling and
that he must subdue it. So he will seek an opportunity whereby in the next
incarnation his threefold organism will so condition him that his
Ego-consciousness, however much it strives, will find no limitations, and he
will be led to the unfathomable and to absurdity. These opportunities come
to him when karma brings him malaria".
Here you have a case of disease brought about by karma which explains that
fundamentally man is led by a higher kind of reason than he perceives with
his ordinary consciousness to circumstances which in the course of his karma
are favourable to his development. If we bear in mind what has just been
said, we shall find it much easier to understand the epidemic nature of
diseases. We could bring forward many different examples showing how,
because of his experience in the kamaloca period, a man actually seeks for
the opportunity to get a certain illness, in order that by overcoming it and
by developing the self-healing forces, he may gain strength and power which
will lead him upward on the path of evolution".
-------
"Now let us suppose a case in which a person overcomes a disease, develops
the healing forces, and then is confronted with a life which exacts from him
a degree of perfection he has not yet gained. He would, indeed, gain
something through the conquered disease, but it is, however, impossible ã
because the rest of his karma does not admit it ã with the little he has
gained to assist others. Then it comes about that his deeper
subconsciousness says: ã åHere you have no opportunity of receiving the full
force of what you really ought to have. You had to go into this incarnation
to gain the degree of perfection which you can only attain in the physical
body by overcoming the disease. That you had to acquire; but you cannot
develop it further. You have now to go into conditions in which your
physical body and the other forces do not disturb you, where you can freely
work out what you have gained through the illness.¼ Such an individual seeks
for death so as to use further, between death and another birth, what he
cannot use in life. Such a soul goes through the phase between death and
re-birth in order to construct an organisation with the stronger forces it
has gained by overcoming disease. In this way through the presence of an
illness, a payment on account, as it were, may be made, and the payment is
completed after passing through death.
When we consider the matter in this way we shall say: It undoubtedly seems
to be founded on karma that one illness ends in being cured and another
terminates in death. If we see illnesses terminated in this way, we shall
obtain through karma, from a higher standpoint a kind of reconciliation, a
profound reconciliation with life; for we shall know that it lies within the
law of karma that ã even if an illness terminates in death ã man progresses,
and that even in such a case the illness has the object of bringing the
person higher. Now no one must draw from this the conclusion that we ought
to wish that death should take place in certain cases of illness. No one may
say this, because the decision regarding what ought to happen, whether
healing or otherwise, belongs to a higher power of judgement than the one
included in our ordinary consciousness. In the world which lies between
birth and death, and with our ordinary consciousness, we must humbly let
such questions stand over. With our higher consciousness we may, however,
even take the standpoint that death is the gift of the higher spiritual
powers".
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 08:21:24 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: special needs education
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Sharon: Anthroposophy claims to heal children by using certain colors,
vibrating the sounds of certain letters, tracing certain magic sigils,
throwing copper wands and balancing them on heads, etc, etc, etc.... Here is
some stuff about form drawing and the power it has to transform a child's
undesirable habits... I wonder if "very special" form drawing would be
employed to cure difficulties like hearing loss?
Poplawski: "In the case of children, undesirable tendencies and habits are
not yet as firmly fixed. Form drawing can change or remove undesirable
habits that are exaggerated manifestations of temperament - such as a
choleric child's temper tantrums or a melancholic child's pronounced social
withdrawal. In the first training for Waldorf teachers (recorded in The
Practical Course for Teachers), Rudolf Steiner demonstrated the use of
colors and forms to help specific children balance exaggerated qualities
that are due to their inherent temperaments. He gave examples of how a child
can benefit from a particular form drawing exercise. While choosing general
patterns to be learned by the entire class, the teacher can thus approach
individual students with special assignments to help them work through
personality blocks that are hampering their progress. Such an approach to
addressing a child's special needs can be quite effective in heading off
certain tendencies before they become too extreme and too fixed".
"Also, it is possible to therapeutically influence an undesirable quality in
a person's character by altering the way in which he or she writes. Habitual
patterns in a person's handwriting are connected with emotional habits, and,
by changing the one, the other can - though not without difficulty - also be
made to change. This so-called "handwriting therapy" is well practiced in
Europe".
"Form drawing involves another kind of rhythmical working that causes
mathematical principles to be experienced truths and not merely abstractions
that need be memorized".
"Many cultures of the world have used and still do use repeated images and
patterns - some variant of the wave, spiral, circle, or other archetypal
form - to ornament jewelry, pottery, clothing, and buildings. These forms
usually have religious or spiritual meaning".
(Thomas Poplawski, Renewal 7:2 pp 26-28).
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 13:47:25 +0000
From: Klaudia (klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com)
Subject: Deaf
mysplum wrote:
) Sharon: I haven't found anything yet on hearing problems from Steiner,
) but...
Klaudia:
Me either (yet), but here is a link to California:
http://www.trilliumdeafprogram.org/
Anthros are taking good care of geaf children. Nice bio-dynamic
surrounding, steiner-dolls and so on.
Please read here how nice method Waldorf is. How some nasty persons can
critizise this kind of education?
Quote from some of trillium-deaf-program page:
"Waldorf Education is the fastest growing form of private education. Now
it is moving into the public system as well through the Charter School
movement. Why? Because it is beautiful! And because it works! Waldorf
education teaches through head, heart and hands using drama,
storytelling, art and movement. Fun? You bet! And Waldorf graduates are
getting into the best colleges with SAT scores well above the national
average! Why shouldn't Deaf children have access to this innovative
educational philosophy?
Part of Trillium's dream is to access Waldorf Education for the Deaf
Community, Deaf children and Deaf educators. We have named this impulse
the Deaf Community Waldorf School. For the last three years Trillium has
been instrumental in the development of a bilingual-bicultural Waldorf
mixed age integrated kindergarten in Sebastopol, California under the
directorship of Victoria Lester. "
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 14:38:39 +0000
From: DW's Mom (qrejy hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: special needs education
mysplum wrote:
) Steiner: "Errors resulting from devotion to Ahriman develop into forces
) of
) disease which affect man through his etheric body. Faults which were the
) object of a moral judgement between birth and death develop into causes
) of
) disease which work more from the astral body.
Being that Steiner obviously believed humans to be greatly superior to
animals, a higher level being you might say, how would he explain
disease and illness in animals? How can they get illness due to karma
if all they are is a shedding of our negative or outgrown ways of being,
and not beings in their own right?
Somebody please explain this bizarre reasoning.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 14:46:39 +0000
From: DW's Mom (qrejy hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Deaf
Klaudia wrote:
) Klaudia:
) Me either (yet), but here is a link to California:
) http://www.trilliumdeafprogram.org/
)
) Anthros are taking good care of geaf children. Nice bio-dynamic
) surrounding, steiner-dolls and so on.
)
) Please read here how nice method Waldorf is. How some nasty persons can
) critizise this kind of education?
)
) Quote from some of trillium-deaf-program page:
)
) "Waldorf Education is the fastest growing form of private education. Now
)
) it is moving into the public system as well through the Charter School
) movement. Why? Because it is beautiful! And because it works! Waldorf
) education teaches through head, heart and hands using drama,
) storytelling, art and movement. Fun? You bet! And Waldorf graduates are
) getting into the best colleges with SAT scores well above the national
) average! Why shouldn't Deaf children have access to this innovative
) educational philosophy?
)
) Part of Trillium's dream is to access Waldorf Education for the Deaf
) Community, Deaf children and Deaf educators. We have named this impulse
) the Deaf Community Waldorf School. For the last three years Trillium has
)
) been instrumental in the development of a bilingual-bicultural Waldorf
) mixed age integrated kindergarten in Sebastopol, California under the
) directorship of Victoria Lester. "
)
)
)
DW's Mom:
Could it be that deaf children, because they cannot generally
communicate verbally, could be seen as a gateway to some sort of
Atlantean/Lemurian communication rennaissance? "Telepathic
communication" and communication using symbols and gestures are two big
ideas related to the new-age Atlantis.
Just an idea that popped into my head.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 15:23:46 +0000
From: Klaudia (klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com)
Subject: "I" of animals and plants
DW's Mom wrote:
)
) Being that Steiner obviously believed humans to be greatly superior to
) animals, a higher level being you might say, how would he explain
) disease and illness in animals? How can they get illness due to karma
) if all they are is a shedding of our negative or outgrown ways of being,
)
) and not beings in their own right?
) Somebody please explain this bizarre reasoning.
)
Individual animals don't have "I" ("Ich" in German). Each species of
animals has only one common "I". All wolves around world has one "I".
Karmic reasons (if there are any) are based on this. Maybe some wolf has
acted badly in Alaska, so some other wolf must get illness in norhern
Norway (this is just my guess).
All species of plants have one "I", so all trees, daisies and all
living carrots have same common "I".
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 15:45:59 +0000
From: Klaudia (klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: "I" of animals and plants, Lecture
Klaudia wrote:
) Individual animals don't have "I" ("Ich" in German). Each species of
) animals has only one common "I". All wolves around world has one "I".
) Karmic reasons (if there are any) are based on this. Maybe some wolf has
)
) acted badly in Alaska, so some other wolf must get illness in norhern
) Norway (this is just my guess).
) All species of plants have one "I", so all trees, daisies and all
) living carrots have same common "I".
)
Klaudia continues:
I found one Steiner's lecture of animals, but I don't have now time to
read it (Hopefully someone reads it and writes main ideas of lecture to
this forum):
http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/Places/Hamburg/19100517p01.html
Manifestations of Karma
LECTURE 2
KARMA AND THE ANIMAL KINGDOM
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 01:47:31 -0000
From: "Charlie Morrison" (charlie morrison5.fsnet.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Charlie...?
Charlie:
Hi Walden, I'm fine, thanks for asking.
While I don't mind responding to your request, I'm not sure how much you
will get out of it. I know that there are plenty of anthros out there who
are more capable of answering your questions than I am.
I feel fortunate in having come to Steiner of my own free will. I picked up
a few of his basic books in the early '70's. It was at a time when I was
trying to make sense of the world and I was working my way through the
philosophy and religious sections of my local library. If I had come across
anthroposophy by way of a negative experience involving my kids education
then things would have been very different I've no doubt.
Anyway, as it was so long ago that I promised to respond, maybe you could
refresh my memory by asking me one or two specific questions and I will make
an attempt at an answer. (You might even receive it before Christmas).
warm regards,
Charlie.
----- Original Message -----
From: "walden" (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 1:22 AM
Subject: Charlie...?
) Charlie:
) ) I'm not ignoring you Walden. I'll share my thoughts when I find the
time.
) )
) ) Warm regards,
) ) Charlie.
)
) Walden: That was over a month ago. I hope all is well with you. Just to
) clarify - I was hoping to see your thoughts in *this* incarnation (g)
) Seriously, I still would greatly appreciate any insight you might add to
) that discussion -the "true or false" thread. Even though it was some time
) ago it is very relevant to me. I feel that I have been abandoned too many
) times when I am really looking to understand. I doubt I am alone in that
) respect. Thanks for taking the time.
)
) -Walden
)
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 12:41:48 +1030
From: BarleySinger (BarleySinger creative-interweb.com)
Subject: shifting the blame to the victim : was Re: Deaf
At 01-11-02 01:47 PM Friday, you wrote:
) ) Sharon: I haven't found anything yet on hearing problems from Steiner,
) ) but...
)
)
)Klaudia:
)Me either (yet), but here is a link to California:
)http://www.trilliumdeafprogram.org/
One point you are forgetting which applies to all disabilities and to all
traumatic experiences (assaults, etc) ... according to the Anthroposophy
version of Karma, all of these things are the fault of the person
experiencing them. So deafness "must" be the result of something from a
previous life. So if your kid is deaf because a really loud sound
destroyed their ability to hear...it is their fault.
If your kid has downs syndrome it is their fault (karma in action). If
they have horrible heath problems because of the local chemical plant it is
again - their fault - not the fault of the person who polluted the water
table, but the fault of the newborn, making it plain that in Anthroposophy
people are not responsible for their action to harm others...it is always
the fault of the person harmed. If your has cancer from pesticide
exposure it is again, the kids fault, not the fault of the company that
made the unsafe pesticide or the fault of the person who applied them in an
unsafe way...but the fault of the kid who did nothing to make it
happen....except according to Steiner it was a part of their Karma.
If your kid has emotional problems because they were kidnapped and molested
by some pervert, or because they witnessed some horrible crime, it is the
kids fault...something left over from a past life caused this to happen to
them.
This kind of attitude has to rub off on the kids in schools for the
disabled. Steinerism takes blaming the victim to a new level of cruelty,
and if the teachers all believe that the disabled children they teach,
deserve their disability because it is a punishment from a past life...they
will treat the children in accordance with that belief.
Steiner's version of karma completely removes peoples responsibility for
the things that they do to other people, and heaps imaginary blame onto the
victims. People from bullies to serious criminals are given free reign and
the kids are blamed for anything that happens. If your kid gets beaten up
or bullied or seriously assaulted at a Steiner school, it is their own
fault. They did something in a past life that is being worked out on the
play ground, and the teachers are forbidden from stopping it.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 14:29:00 +1030
From: BarleySinger (BarleySinger creative-interweb.com)
Subject: Re: Religion in Waldorf Schools - pagan, Christian, and more -
At 31-10-02 08:37 AM Thursday, you wrote:
)The Anthro's ban on such programming is absolute
)nonsense.
Not if the point of the ban is the isolation that you mentioned. There are
multiple levels of answers to this question as well. Parents (at our
school) are given information on the bad effects of television on the
developing mind including a number of (highly dubious) studies. Yet as the
same time, there is another deeper belief known only to those heavily into
anthro and Steiner, in which the ban is based on the evil influences of
Ahriman on technology. I have no doubt that at a deeper level within the
organization it is also considered to be an intentional and essential
element for recruiting people into the fold, because without isolation from
other ideas, people would just laugh at the nuts and walk away. It is
standard cult methodology to cut people off from other sources of
information, and this is one of the methods used by Steiner.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 17:52:29 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Admin: web counter 98,954
On November 1, 2002, the PLANS web site had registered 98,954
visitors since August 12, 1996. (Visitors, not hits, repeats on the
same day are not counted. Thanks, Web-Counter: http://www.digits.com.)
We had 2533 visitors in the last 30 days, averaging 84 per day.
Hit counters give much higher but less meaningful numbers, because
they count every page and image viewed. The hits on our site in the
month of October totaled 161,360, averaging 5205 per day.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 863
-- Topica Digest --
steiner/vaccination
By Diana.Winters worldnet.att.net
Re: steiner/vaccination
By BarleySinger creative-interweb.com
encountering Steiner's racial doctrines
By pstaud hotmail.com
re: steiner and vaccination/chemical sensitivity
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: Charlie...?
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: Charlie...?
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: Religion in Waldorf Schools - pagan, Christian, and more -
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Walden, Peter S, Charlie, racism & kids
By lumiere paris.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 08:26:07 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters worldnet.att.net)
Subject: steiner/vaccination
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
The language is of fault, temptation, punishment, "paying of
accounts" - all this is in the short Steiner passage Sharon quoted on
karma and its relation to illness. This is about getting malaria or
pneumonia!
Steiner:
. . . our errors do not go unpunished. . . . through the presence
of an illness, a payment on account, as it were, may be made . . .
All who keep insisting, "Yes, but that's not why I don't vaccinate;
it's got nothing to do with Steiner." Well, maybe not Steiner, but
are you sure the traditions you are drawing on don't also have hints
of this stuff, not too far from the surface? Steiner, a man of his
time, could be a great-grandfather to most of us. How many of us were
not influenced by such beliefs in childhood? We just imagine we're
too sophisticated to buy the old wine on sale in new bottles
everywhere.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 01:01:43 +1030
From: BarleySinger (BarleySinger creative-interweb.com)
Subject: Re: steiner/vaccination
--=====================_16656313==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
At 02-11-02 08:26 AM Saturday, you wrote:
)The language is of fault, temptation, punishment, "paying of accounts" -
)all this is in the short Steiner passage Sharon quoted on karma and its
)relation to illness. This is about getting malaria or pneumonia!
)
)Steiner:
)
). . . our errors do not go unpunished. . . . through the presence of an
)illness, a payment on account, as it were, may be made . . .
)
)
)All who keep insisting, "Yes, but that's not why I don't vaccinate; it's
)got nothing to do with Steiner."
In my case it is because my entire family has problems with chemical
sensitivity(in my wife it is life threateningly extreme) and they insist on
putting mercury, formaldehyde and benzene in stuff that they make for
injecting into babies. Frankly it really ticks me off that I have the
option of leaving my daughter with no added immunity to dangerous
organisms, or having her injected with a stew of unnecessary crap which
could easily condemn her to the kind of pain that I and my wife have to
live with every day. I do not want her to get diphtheria, but as sure as
"Steiner was a loon" I don't want her to live like this.
)Well, maybe not Steiner, but are you sure the traditions you are drawing
)on don't also have hints of this stuff, not too far from the surface?
)Steiner, a man of his time, could be a great-grandfather to most of us.
)How many of us were not influenced by such beliefs in childhood? We just
)imagine we're too sophisticated to buy the old wine on sale in new bottles
)everywhere
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 14:08:53 -0600
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: encountering Steiner's racial doctrines
Charlie writes:
)I feel fortunate in having come to Steiner of my own free will. I picked up
)a few of his basic books in the early '70's. It was at a time when I was
)trying to make sense of the world and I was working my way through the
)philosophy and religious sections of my local library. If I had come across
)anthroposophy by way of a negative experience involving my kids education
)then things would have been very different I've no doubt.
Hi Charlie,
as one of your frequent interlocutors, I hope you won't mind my butting in
to your exchange with Walden. I'm not sure how to make sense of your
paragraph above. You seem to be saying that your own lack of personal
negative experience with Waldorf education accounts for your generally
positive evaluation of anthroposophical doctrines, and you seem to suggest
that critics of anthroposophy, in contrast, have not encountered Steiner of
their own free will. Without downplaying the negative experiences of many of
the former Waldorf parents on this list, I have to point out that this
hypothesis (if it is indeed what you're getting at) is in error. Since we're
talking about personal encounters with Steiner's work, let's use me as an
example: I have never had any negative experiences with Waldorf education,
and I, like you, came to Steiner of my own free will. I nevertheless have a
very different take on Steiner's teachings from yours, as we all know. I
don't think I am unique in that regard, even on this list. This suggests to
me that the reasons for our sharply divergent attitudes toward Steiner's
doctrines have to do with the substance of those doctrines themselves, not
with negative experiences or free will.
As I understood it, the thread on "true or false" revolved squarely around
such textual and doctrinal questions, not around personal experiences.
Percedol, for example, declared that Steiner's "teachings of races are
beautiful", and explicitly endorsed Steiner's notion that "savages" are
"degenerate" human beings. He then opined that Asians and South American
indigenous peoples are examples of human groups that have "regressed" or
remained stagnant, in cosmic-evolutionary terms. It seems to me that there
are two main possible responses for anthroposophists who oppose racism: you
can either deny that Steiner taught these ideas, or you can agree that he
taught them and deny that these ideas are racist. In all of the exchanges
that you and I have had on this and related issues, it has never become
clear to me which one of these responses you are trying to articulate, or
whether you perceive a third option. Thus I would like to heartily second
Walden's query to you: What do you think of the Steiner quotes that Walden
presented, and what do you think of the way these teachings are interpreted
and defended by other anthroposophists?
Thanks for your time,
Peter S.
_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 22:29:46 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: re: steiner and vaccination/chemical sensitivity
BarleySinger, you write:
In my case it is because my entire family has problems with chemical
sensitivity(in my wife it is life threateningly extreme) and they insist on
putting mercury, formaldehyde and benzene in stuff that they make for
injecting into babies ...
Lisa here: How do you know that your health problems are caused by reactions
to these chemicals you mention?
I am very interested in the subject of multiple chemical
hypersensitivity, as I spent almost six months researching the topic for a
newspaper story I wanted to do. As part of my research, I spent hours with
more than a dozen people who believed that their health problems (which
ranged from vicious headaches and roaming pain to weak muscles,
deteriorating eyesight, etc.) were caused by exposure to various
petrochemicals. I also spent hours interviewing doctors and scientists on
the subject.
I found the whole thing intriguing. Unfortunately, I was unable to get
the article in print (this was in the late 80s) because I was unable to find
a credible doctor or scientist at the time who believed that there was such
a thing as chemical hypersensitivity.
I ask, BarleySinger, not to challenge you (I did this research a long
time ago, in scientific terms!) but because I am interested. No doubt a lot
of research has been done since my attempt to write about chemical
sensitivity, and I would appreciate hearing a bit of what you know.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 20:35:20 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Charlie...?
Charlie wrote:
While I don't mind responding to your request, I'm not sure how much you
) will get out of it. I know that there are plenty of anthros out there who
) are more capable of answering your questions than I am.
Walden: That is fine. I will get out of it whatever there is to get.
Please don't worry about me (g). As for the "plenty of anthros"... send
them over! The occasional anthro inspired person arrives here and when the
questions start ... they vanish. I understand that the heat is turned up in
here from time to time - but that is when the soup tastes best. Shine that
light....
) I feel fortunate in having come to Steiner of my own free will. I picked
up
) a few of his basic books in the early '70's. It was at a time when I was
) trying to make sense of the world and I was working my way through the
) philosophy and religious sections of my local library. If I had come
across
) anthroposophy by way of a negative experience involving my kids education
) then things would have been very different I've no doubt.
Walden: Now this is interesting but sends a bit of a curveball into the
original "true or false" thread. I would be happy to explore your anthro
impulse in the 70's a little later as that *does* interest me a great deal,
as well.
) Anyway, as it was so long ago that I promised to respond, maybe you could
) refresh my memory by asking me one or two specific questions and I will
make
) an attempt at an answer.
Walden: OK... Without pasting bits of old posts I will ask one or two
specific questions as per your request. It would really help to refresh
your memory (or anyone else following this) to look at the thread "true or
false" in the archives - late August through September of this year. So...
How do you, Charlie, reconcile Steiner's racist views with spiritual
enlightenment? If, by any chance, you do not agree that his views are
racist - how do you explain the many Steiner quotes and lectures which are
clearly full of racist remarks and how can Steiner's racial ethnography not
be considered *racist*?
Those are the questions. Now if you were to ask for specific quotes of
Steiner I will oblige - see the following quotes. There are many more -
these ones I have a real hard time with. In the past I have been told that
these quotes are incorrect, poorly translated, etc. My study of
Anthroposophy, however, tells me that the quotes are very real and have
everything to do with Anthroposophy - without these lectures on race - there
is not much left. Sure, we can meditate, study the planets and really
believe that Steiner was clairvoyant - but that does not seem to be the
*impulse* behind Anthroposophy, does it?
Sorry, that is three questions now (g)
So... fire away with response and thanks for taking the time. Really.
Please read the following carefully:
"Jewry as such has long since outlived its time; it has no more
justification within the modern life of peoples, and the fact that it
continues to exist is a mistake of world history whose consequences are
unavoidable. We do not mean the forms of the Jewish religion alone, but
above all the spirit of Jewry, the Jewish way of thinking." (Steiner, GA 32,
p. 152)
"White humankind is still on the path of absorbing the spirit deeper and
deeper into its own essence. Yellow humankind is on the path of
conserving the era when the spirit will be kept away from the body, when
the spirit will only be sought outside of the human-physical
organization. But the result will have to be that the transition from
the fifth cultural epoch to the sixth cultural epoch cannot happen in
any other way than as a violent battle of white humankind against
colored humankind in myriad areas. And that which precedes these battles
between white and colored humankind will occupy world history until the
completion of the great battles between white and colored humankind.
Future events are frequently reflected in prior events. You see, we
stand before something colossal that - when we understand it through
spiritual science - we will in the future be able to recognize as a
necessary occurrence." (Rudolf Steiner, Die geistigen Hintergr¸nde des
Ersten Weltkrieges. Dornach, 1974 (GA 174b) p. 38).
STEINER (1923) "No doubt about it, the soul becomes corrupted through using
the French language...It is also possible at the present time that the
French will even ruin their own blood, the very element which has kept their
language going as a corpse. That is a terrible thing the French people are
doing to other people, the frightful cultural brutality of transplanting
black people to Europe. It affects France itself worst of all. This has an
incredibly strong effect on the blood, the race. This will substantially add
to French decadence. The French nation will be weakened as a race."
[Steiner, Rudolf. *Conferences with the Teachers of the Waldorf School in
Stuttgart 1922 to 1923: Volume Three: Being the end of the Fourth Year*.
(1923) Trans. Pauline Wehrle. Forest Row, U.K.: Steiner Schools Fellowship
Publications, 1988, pp. 87-88.]
"These blacks in Africa characteristically suck in, absorb, all
light and all heat from the cosmos. And, humans being humans, this
light and this heat from the cosmos cannot pass through the entire
body. It does not flow through the entire body, but it stops at the
skin. In this way, the complexion itself becomes black. Consequently,
a black in Africa is a human who absorbs and assimilates as much
light and heat from the cosmos as possible. As he does this, the
forces of the cosmos work throughout that human. Everywhere, he
absorbs light and heat, really everywhere. He assimilates them within
himself. There really must be something which helps him in this
assimilation. That something is mainly the cerebellum. This is why a
Negro has an especially well developed cerebellum. This is linked to
the spinal marrow; and they can assimilate all light and heat which a
human contains. As a consequence, especially the aspects which
pertain to the body and to metabolism are strongly developed in a
Negro. He has a strong sexual urge -as people call it-, strong
instincts. And as, with him, all which comes from the sun -light and
heat- really is at the skin's surface, all of his metabolism works as
if the sun itself is boiling in his inside. This causes his passions.
Within a Negro, cooking is going on all the time; and the cerebellum
kindles the fire. (...) And we, Europeans, we poor Europeans, we have
the thinking life, which resides in the head. (...) Therefore, Europe
has always been the starting point of everything which develops the
human entity in such a way that at the same time a relationship with
the outside world arises. (...)
"When Negroes go to the west, they cannot absorb as much light and
heat any more as they were used to in their Africa. (...) That is why
they turn copper red, they become Indians. That is because they are
forced to reflect a part of the light and heat. They turn shiny
copper red. They cannot keep up this copper red shining. That is why
the Indians die out in the West, they die because of their own nature
which does not get enough light and heat, they die because of the
earthly factor.(...)
"Really, it is the whites who develop the human factor within
themselves. Therefore they have to rely on themselves. When whites do
emigrate, they partly take on the characteristics of other areas, but
they die more as individuals than as a race. The white race is the
race of the future, the race that is working creatively with the
spirit."
[Steiner, March 3 1923, lecture to the workmen (GA 349 p. 67)]
"I am convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and give
them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come to Europe
to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-blood children
will be born in Europe" (from Steiner's "Health and Illness").
"We have seen that blood united to blood in the case of but remotely
connected species of animals, kills; blood united to blood in the case of
more closely allied species of animals does not kill. The physical organism
of man survives when strange blood comes in contact with strange blood,
[except, of course, in the case of incompatible blood types, which mutually
coagulate one another,] but clairvoyant power perishes under the influence
of this mixing of blood, or exogamy." -- Rudolf Steiner (Occult Significance
of Blood, 1906)
"The human individual belongs to a family, a nation, a race; his actions in
this world depend on his belonging to such a totality. [. . .] Indeed, in a
certain sense individuals are only the executive organs of these family
souls, racial spirits, and so forth. [. . .] Every individual gets his
tasks, in the truest sense of the word, assigned by the family soul, the
national soul, or the racial soul." (Steiner, GA 10, Dornach 1961, pp.
199-200) Toward the end of his life, Steiner again emphasized this crucial
facet of anthroposophic thought: "One can only understand history and all of
social life, including today's social life, if one pays attention to
people's racial characteristics. And one can only understand all that is
spiritual in the correct sense if one first examines how this spiritual
element operates within people precisely through the color of their skin."
Steiner, Vom Leben des Menschen und der Erde (GA 349), Dornach 1980, p. 52.
The quote is from 1923.
"But since all men in different incarnations pass through the various races,
there exists - even if it can be said against me that the European has a
lead in relation to the black and yellow race - no real disadvantage. In
such cases the truth is sometimes veiled, but you see that you with
Spiritual Science come to remarkable insights."
(Steiner, Rudolf. 1910. The Mission of Folk-Souls. Translation from the
German original, published in paperback 1974 by Redolf Steiner Verlag,
Dornach. Fourth Lecture, The Development of the Races and of the Cultures)
"Consequently the various peoples may assume the most diverse forms.
According as the eye or the ear or one of the other senses predominates, so
will the different peoples respond in this or that way to the particular
national tendency within the racial character. In consequence of this they
are faced with quite specific tasks. The particular task of the Caucasian
race is to find the way to the spirit through the senses, for this race is
oriented chiefly towards the sense-world."
(Steiner, Rudolf. 1910. The Mission of Folk-Souls. Translation from the
German original, published in paperback 1974 by Redolf Steiner Verlag,
Dornach. Sixth Lecture, The Five Main Races of Humanity)
"Thus we see that through these abnormal Spirits of Form there are five
potential centres of influence where these reflected planetary forces are
concentrated and produce in reflect what we know as the five main races of
the Earth.
Let us now look more closely into the centre which, in Lecture Four, we
situated in the interior of Africa. If we state that the Negro race was born
of the cooperation between the normal Spirits of Form and the abnormal
Spirits of Form centred in Mercury, then from an occult standpoint we are
perfectly correct in describing the Negro race as the "Mercury race".
Let us now continue along the line joining the centres or focal points from
which the individual races spread outward. We then come to Asia which is the
seat of the '"Venus race" or the Malayan race. We then move northward across
the wide expanse of Asia and we find the Mongolian race which is formed by
the Mars forces. Then we cross over into Europe and find the Europeans who
in their original racial character are "Jupiter men". If we cross the ocean
to America which is the centre where civilizations or races die, we find
there dark "Saturn's race", the original Red Indian race. The American
Indian race is the "Saturn race". Thus if you look into the matter more
closely from an occult standpoint you will become aware of the five centres
where the planetary forces are concentrated and are manifested in the
external world.
With a progressively more definite and concrete conception of this racial
distribution you will develop an inner understanding of the racial
characteristics peculiar to the peoples spread over the Earth, an
understanding of this unique cooperation of the normal and abnormal Spirits
of Form."
"It is valid for the epoch when, at a definite moment of time in the old
Atlantean evolution, the peoples began to migrate from a centre in Atlantis
and sought the particular centre where they could receive the training
appropriate to their race. "
"Now how do we look upon a member of the Ethiopian race, of the Mercury
race? We see him. as one who was originally chosen, who was predestined by
the Elohim to express the quintessence of the all-human. But from the
Mercury Centre the potent influences of the abnormal Spirits of Form
intervened and modified the form of man to such an extent that the Ethiopian
race arose. And such was the case with each individual race. "
"Now how do these Race Spirits work in and upon man? They work in a very
unique way; they permeate his vital energies, they penetrate even down into
his physical body. Now you know that the four fundamental members of man
find their impress and are reflected in corresponding parts of the physical
body: the 'I' finds its impress in the blood, the astral body in the nervous
system, the etheric or life body in the glandular system. Only the physical
body is self-sufficient; it is a reflection of its own inner being which for
the man of the present is subject to its own fixed laws.
Now those spiritual Beings who are stirring in man and determine his racial
character cannot at first work directly into his higher vehicles. They are
active first of all in these reflections of the higher vehicles in the
physical body. They cannot as yet enter directly into the physical body, but
they are active in the three other members, in the blood which is the
reflection of the 'I'; in the nervous system, the reflection of the astral
body; and in the glandular system which is the reflection of the etheric
body. The Race Spirits, the abnormal Spirits of Form, are active in these
three systems, which are part of man's organic system, but are reflections
of the higher vehicles.
Thus the physical body of man is determined from within. These various
spiritual Beings invade those members of the physical body which are the
preliminary drafts, the suggestions of the higher vehicles.
Now where, for instance, does Mercury make his influence felt? Under
Mercury, I include all the abnormal Spirits of Form to be found in Mercury.
He makes his influence felt by cooperating with others, especially in the
glandular system. He is active in the glandular (or lymphatic) system where
are manifested the forces born of that preponderance of the Mercury forces
which are present in the Ethiopian race. Everything which gives the
Ethiopian race its distinctive character sterns from the ferment of the
Mercury forces in the glandular system of this people. What transforms the
undifferentiated universal human form into the distinctive Ethiopian type
with his black pigmentation and woolly or frizzy hair is the consequence of
their activity. "
"The Semitic people are an example of a modification of collective humanity.
Jahve or Jehovah shuts Himself off from the other Elohim and invests this
people with a special character by cooperating with the Mars Spirits, in
order to bring about a special modification of his people.
You will now understand the peculiar character of the Semitic people and its
mission. In a profound occult sense the Biblical writer was able to claim
that Jahve or Jehovah had made this people his own. If you add to this the
fact that Jahve cooperated with the Mars Spirits who worked principally in
the blood, you will understand why racial continuity through the
blood-stream was of particular importance to the Semitic Hebrew people and
why Jahve describes Himself as the God who is present in the blood of the
generations, in the blood of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. When he declared
himself to be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, He proclaimed that He was
present in the blood-stream of the Patriarchs. Whatsoever works in the
blood, whatsoever must be determined through the blood - the cooperation
with the Mars Spirits - that is one of the mysteries which give us a deep
insight into the wise guidance of all mankind.
The blood of mankind is thus subject to a twofold influence; two races
emerge, the Mongolian race and the Semitic race. This points to the
existence of an important polarity in mankind and we must emphasize the
immense importance of this polarity if we wish to plumb the depths of the
Folk Souls. "
"Consequently the various peoples may assume the most diverse forms.
According as the eye or the ear or one of the other senses predominates, so
will the different peoples respond in this or that way to the particular
national tendency within the racial character. In consequence of this they
are faced with quite specific tasks. The particular task of the Caucasian
race is to find the way to the spirit through the senses, for this race is
orientated chiefly towards the sense-world.
Here is disclosed something that introduces us to the deeper secrets of
occultism; it shows how, in those peoples who are subject to the Venus
forces, the initial steps in development, even in occult development, must
be concentrated on the respiratory system. Amongst the peoples living more
in the Western Hemisphere, on the other hand, the initial steps must start
from an enrichment and a spiritualization of the life of the senses. This is
experienced by those peoples inhabiting countries more towards the West in
their stages of higher cognition, in Imagination, Inspiration and Intuition,
in so far as the Jupiter Spirit originally modified the character. "
"Finally, the abnormal Spirits of Form who have their centre in Saturn work
indirectly via all the other systems into the glandular system. In the
Saturn race, therefore, in everything to which we must ascribe the Saturn
character, we must expect to find the combination of the forces leading to
the twilight of mankind, forces which set the seal upon its development and
sow the seeds of its ultimate decline. This action and its effect upon the
glandular system can be seen in the American Indian race and was the cause
of its ultimate extinction.
The Saturn influence finally works via all the other systems into the
glandular system which secretes the hardest parts of man. This slow decline
is characterized by a kind of ossification which is clearly reflected in the
external form. If you look at the pictures of the old American Indians the
process of ossification described above is evident in the decline of this
race. In a race such as this everything pertaining to the forces of the
Saturn evolution has become realized in a special manner; then Saturn
withdrew into itself, abandoned man to his bony system and thus hastened his
decline. "
The Mission of Single Folk Souls in Relation to Germanic-Nordic Mythology -
Lecture 6 -
The five main races of Mankind.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 22:38:15 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Charlie...?
Walden: My apologies - I forgot a few quotes from the original thread to
help refresh your memory, Charlie:
"If the blondes and blue-eyed people die out, the human race will
become increasingly dense if men do not arrive at a form of intelligence
that is independent from blondeness. In the case of fair people, less
nourishment is driven into the eyes and hair: it remains instead in the
brain and endows it with intelligence. Brown-and dark ‚haired people drive
nourishment into their eyes and hair that the fair people retain in their
brains." (Steiner, Rudolf, Health and Illness, 86)\
"[W]e are not justified in thinking that human beings were originally like
the savages of today. The savages have developed into what they now
are--with their superstitions, their magical practices and their unclean
appearance--from states originally more perfect. The only superiority we
have over them is that, while starting from the same conditions, we did not
degenerate as they did. I might therefore say: The evolution of man has
taken two paths. It is not true that the savages of today represent the
original condition of mankind. Mankind, though to begin with it looked more
animal-like, was highly civilized. ... Just as the present savages have
fallen from the level of the human beings of primeval times, so the apes are
beings who have fallen still lower."
Steiner, Rudolf. The Evolution of the Earth and Man and the Influence of the
Stars. Page 126 (1924) Trans. Gladys Hahn. Hudson, NY: Anthroposophic Press,
1987
"Darwinism has made many errors in regard to the differentiation expressed
by the races actually existing on the Earth. The higher races have not
descended from the lower races; on the contrary, the latter represent the
degeneration of the higher races which have preceded them. Suppose there are
two brothers - one of whom is handsome and intelligent, the other ugly and
dull-witted. Both proceed from the same father. What should we think of a
man who believed that the intelligent brother descends from the idiot? That
is the kind of error made by Darwinism in regard to the races."
Steiner - An Esoteric Cosmology II THE MISSION OF MANICHEISM - Lecture:
26th May, 1906 | Paris | GA0092
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 23:04:36 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Religion in Waldorf Schools - pagan, Christian, and more -
) Sharon: Thanks again for a great post, you sure know how to wrap up the
) issues.
Walden: Agreed! It is difficult and not always useful to respond to all
posts here but I must say how much I appreciate this list. Posts like these
are well articulated and well received. There are other members, as well,
whose posts I look forward to and enjoy... even if I do not always agree
with them.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 05:08:44 -0500
From: "_ lumiere" (lumiere paris.com)
Subject: Walden, Peter S, Charlie, racism & kids
Walden and Peter Staudenmaier rightly want the unforthcoming Charlie
Morrison to pony up the goods on his view of Steiner's racist statements and
their interpretation, perpetuation and unquestioning belief by Anthroposophists
of today.
However, these arguments about Steiner-said-No-he-didn't (or at least he didn't
mean it) can go on for as long as there are people of opposing viewpoints and
new cannon-fodder from the Antroposophical rank and file to be
drafted into duty
against the heathens of the critics list -- and little will be
solved, proved or
progressed towards agreement.
But there is a larger question that gets lost in these historically and
contemporarily important, but ultimately academic, arguments about Steiner's
racism.
What about the children?
What about the beliefs of Steiner that are transmitted to the
children in Waldorf
schools, through an esoteric, occult, magical brainwashing curriculum parroted
by Steiner's acolytes and priests and priestesses? Otherwise known as
teachers -- a misnomer if ever there was one.
Steiner's genius in perpetuating his racist cosmology on humanity was that he
devised a ritual, myth-based, feel-good, white-race self-affirming
religion that
could be taught as a nominal pedagogy to chidren without arousing the alarums
of intelligent people.
In this he was very much like Hitler, as opposed to Lenin, Stalin, Mao or any
other tyrant who forced his world view on his subjects. Steiner, like
(at least the
early) Hitler, used symbolism and emotion over political and ideological will.
Steiner's subjects are lulled into believing they are not subjects at
all, not even
willing subjugants to a larger-than-they state or religion or ideology, but
free-thinking free people.
But what about the children?
It is at least possible that Steiner's racism becomes innate in
children who are
exposed to twelve or more years of his brainwashing. Innate in such a way that
as adults these people would blanch at the charge that they are racist.
How would this happen?
Just as Sharon has eludicated over the last two years the fundamentals of the
magical mystery school curriculum of Waldorf schools which inculcates
irrational thinking and produces minds ready to believe anything
uncritically, we
need to see a revelation of the catechism of racist fundamentalism which
inhabits the Waldorf curriculum. (We have seen only hints of it in the
mythology-as-history threads of the curriculum.)
There has never been a point-by-point, lesson-by-lesson, year-by-year analysis
of the racialist content of the Waldorf curriculum. This is because
it is hidden,
protected, waffled over, lied about and kept by the inner circle of
Anthroposphists
in Waldorf schools, unknown even to the ordinary teachers.
There needs to be an investigation in depth of the Waldorf curriculum to match
Sharon's (and the three Peters', and Dan's, and others') work on Steiner's
religion.
N'est-ce pas vrai?
AmitiÈ sincËre,
_lumiere
--
__________________________________________________________
Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com
http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 864
-- Topica Digest --
Re: steiner/vaccination
By Diana.Winters worldnet.att.net
Re: shifting the blame to the victim : was Re: Deaf
By mysplum earthlink.net
Linden Hill Happy Camper
By Gary GoodWinter.com
Test for comprehending of anthro-text
By klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com
Anthroposophy going mainstream
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Linden Hill Happy Camper
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Walden, Peter S, Charlie, racism & kids
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 08:33:21 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters worldnet.att.net)
Subject: Re: steiner/vaccination
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BarleySinger wrote:
In my case it is because my entire family has problems with
chemical sensitivity
I do realize there are medical reasons such as your that some
people don't vaccinate, and I take them as the exception to the more
generalized opposition and suspicion about vaccines that I am
referring to. The contraindications are rarer than the anti-vaccine
lobby would have us think, but do exist.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 08:53:11 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: shifting the blame to the victim : was Re: Deaf
on 11/1/02 6:11 PM, BarleySinger at BarleySinger creative-interweb.com
wrote:
) If they have horrible heath problems because of the local chemical
plant it is
) again - their fault - not the fault of the person who polluted the water
) table, but the fault of the newborn, making it plain that in Anthroposophy
) people are not responsible for their action to harm others...it is always
) the fault of the person harmed. If your has cancer from pesticide
) exposure it is again, the kids fault, not the fault of the company that
) made the unsafe pesticide or the fault of the person who applied them in an
) unsafe way...but the fault of the kid who did nothing to make it
) happen....except according to Steiner it was a part of their Karma.
Sharon: Not in this case. Here's Steiner:
"It is a different matter if a man falls ill through working in a poisonous
atmosphere; this too may be a cause of illness but is not connected with the
inherent constitution of the physical body".
Sharon: Not to worry BarleySinger, it's not your fault you are sick and you
will be beautiful next time around (G). Beauty is a sign that you were
sickly in past life... are you beautiful now? (G)
Steiner: "No one who shudders at the unpleasantness of pain, who is
unwilling to bear pain can create in himself the foundations for wisdom;
indeed when we look deeper, we cannot really bemoan illnesses, for regarded
from a higher standpoint, from the standpoint of Eternity, they take on a
very different aspect. Illnesses calmly borne often appear in the next life
as a great physical beauty; great physical beauty in a human being is
acquired at the cost of illnesses in the preceeding life. Such is the
connection between impairment of the body through illness, particularly also
through external circumstances, and beauty.
The following words of the French writer, Fabre d'Olivet can be applied to
this very remarkable connection: "When we observe the life of the human
being, it often seems to be like the formation of the pearl in the oyster-
shell - the pearl can only come into being through disease". And so it is
actually in human life: Beauty is karmically connected with illness and is
their result. When I said, however, that a man who unfolds reprehensible
passions creates in himself the disposition to illness, it must be fully
realised that in this case it is a matter of inherent tendency to illnesses.
It is a different matter if a man falls ill through working in a poisonous
atmosphere; this too may be a cause of illness but is not connected with the
inherent constitution of the physical body" (64-65 Steiner, Ruolf. Theosophy
of the Rosicrucian 1907. Rudolf Steiner Press London reprint 1981).
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 11:40:08 -0500
From: Gary Bonhiver (Gary goodwinter.com)
Cc: SHARMAINEBARONE aol.com
Subject: Linden Hill Happy Camper
Sharmaine,
We don't have time to respond to every email we receive privately, so I've
posted your email to the Waldorf-Critics discussion list. Please feel free
to join the resulting conversation by joining waldorf-critics via the web
site:
http://www.waldorfcritics.org/active/critics.html
What exactly do you mean by this...
) All private schools have the right and do act upon this in asking students
) and/or families that are being a negative force in the school's community.
Are you saying that people who have legitimate complaints are considered
"being negative" and should be forced out? Shouldn't a school and its
parent body have a cooperative and equal relationship, with the school eager
to hear about problems from parents so that they can be addressed? Or is
the school "better qualified" when it comes to raising your child?
Please join the discussion to expand on your thoughts! You are welcome here
even if your comments are "a negative force". And please invite Phyllis,
Mike and Kyle, Deirdre, Katy, and others from Linden Hill to join in and
tell us about how their school is different from the many other Waldorf
schools that we've collectively experienced and heard about.
...Gary
www.waldorfcritics.org Webmaster
----------
) From: SHARMAINEBARONE aol.com
) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 19:44:29 EST
) To: webmaster waldorfcritics.org
) Subject: (no subject)
)
) All private schools have the right and do act upon this in asking students
) and/or families that are being a negative force in the school's community. I
) am offended in your assumptions that the wool is being pulled over my eyes.
) I have two boys attending Linden Hill School in Wilton, CT. I find no
) anthroposophical cult opinions in practice. We are all of diverse religious
) backgrounds and each and every teacher respects that.
)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 21:12:01 +0000
From: Klaudia (klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com)
Subject: Test for comprehending of anthro-text
walden wrote interesting quotes of racial doctrines of anthroposophy.
Due to walden's message I sent an email to some of my friends. Maybe
also at this list we could give this kind of hints about the main
contents of the message.
Here is my message for them:
Please find answers for following seven questions. Rudolf Steiner has
given the answers (see quotes below).
1. What happens to the soul, if person uses French language?
2. Why black people has well cerebellum?
3. Why African black people became as Indians when they moved to
America?
4. Why Indians will die out?
5. How mulatto-babies can be born to white european mothers even if they
never had sexual intercourse with black man?
6. What is the race of the future?
7. How clairvoyant power will be perished?
STEINER (1923) "No doubt about it, the soul becomes corrupted through
using
the French language...It is also possible at the present time that the
French will even ruin their own blood, the very element which has kept
their
language going as a corpse. That is a terrible thing the French people
are
doing to other people, the frightful cultural brutality of transplanting
black people to Europe. It affects France itself worst of all. This has
an
incredibly strong effect on the blood, the race. This will substantially
add
to French decadence. The French nation will be weakened as a race."
[Steiner, Rudolf. *Conferences with the Teachers of the Waldorf School
in
Stuttgart 1922 to 1923: Volume Three: Being the end of the Fourth Year*.
(1923) Trans. Pauline Wehrle. Forest Row, U.K.: Steiner Schools
Fellowship
Publications, 1988, pp. 87-88.]
"These blacks in Africa characteristically suck in, absorb, all
light and all heat from the cosmos. And, humans being humans, this
light and this heat from the cosmos cannot pass through the entire
body. It does not flow through the entire body, but it stops at the
skin. In this way, the complexion itself becomes black. Consequently,
a black in Africa is a human who absorbs and assimilates as much
light and heat from the cosmos as possible. As he does this, the
forces of the cosmos work throughout that human. Everywhere, he
absorbs light and heat, really everywhere. He assimilates them within
himself. There really must be something which helps him in this
assimilation. That something is mainly the cerebellum. This is why a
Negro has an especially well developed cerebellum. This is linked to
the spinal marrow; and they can assimilate all light and heat which a
human contains. As a consequence, especially the aspects which
pertain to the body and to metabolism are strongly developed in a
Negro. He has a strong sexual urge -as people call it-, strong
instincts. And as, with him, all which comes from the sun -light and
heat- really is at the skin's surface, all of his metabolism works as
if the sun itself is boiling in his inside. This causes his passions.
Within a Negro, cooking is going on all the time; and the cerebellum
kindles the fire. (...) And we, Europeans, we poor Europeans, we have
the thinking life, which resides in the head. (...) Therefore, Europe
has always been the starting point of everything which develops the
human entity in such a way that at the same time a relationship with
the outside world arises. (...)
"When Negroes go to the west, they cannot absorb as much light and
heat any more as they were used to in their Africa. (...) That is why
they turn copper red, they become Indians. That is because they are
forced to reflect a part of the light and heat. They turn shiny
copper red. They cannot keep up this copper red shining. That is why
the Indians die out in the West, they die because of their own nature
which does not get enough light and heat, they die because of the
earthly factor.(...)
"Really, it is the whites who develop the human factor within
themselves. Therefore they have to rely on themselves. When whites do
emigrate, they partly take on the characteristics of other areas, but
they die more as individuals than as a race. The white race is the
race of the future, the race that is working creatively with the
spirit."
[Steiner, March 3 1923, lecture to the workmen (GA 349 p. 67)]
"I am convinced that if we get yet another set of Negro novels and give
them to pregnant women to read, then Negroes do not have to come to
Europe
to conceive mulattos; just by reading Negro novels, half-blood children
will be born in Europe" (from Steiner's "Health and Illness").
"We have seen that blood united to blood in the case of but remotely
connected species of animals, kills; blood united to blood in the case
of
more closely allied species of animals does not kill. The physical
organism
of man survives when strange blood comes in contact with strange blood,
[except, of course, in the case of incompatible blood types, which
mutually
coagulate one another,] but clairvoyant power perishes under the
influence
of this mixing of blood, or exogamy." -- Rudolf Steiner (Occult
Significance
of Blood, 1906)
"The human individual belongs to a family, a nation, a race; his actions
in
this world depend on his belonging to such a totality. [. . .] Indeed,
in a
certain sense individuals are only the executive organs of these family
souls, racial spirits, and so forth. [. . .] Every individual gets his
tasks, in the truest sense of the word, assigned by the family soul, the
national soul, or the racial soul." (Steiner, GA 10, Dornach 1961, pp.
199-200) Toward the end of his life, Steiner again emphasized this
crucial
facet of anthroposophic thought: "One can only understand history and
all of
social life, including today's social life, if one pays attention to
people's racial characteristics. And one can only understand all that is
spiritual in the correct sense if one first examines how this spiritual
element operates within people precisely through the color of their
skin."
Steiner, Vom Leben des Menschen und der Erde (GA 349), Dornach 1980, p.
52.
The quote is from 1923.
"But since all men in different incarnations pass through the various
races,
there exists - even if it can be said against me that the European has a
lead in relation to the black and yellow race - no real disadvantage. In
such cases the truth is sometimes veiled, but you see that you with
Spiritual Science come to remarkable insights."
(Steiner, Rudolf. 1910. The Mission of Folk-Souls. Translation from the
German original, published in paperback 1974 by Redolf Steiner Verlag,
Dornach. Fourth Lecture, The Development of the Races and of the
Cultures)
"Finally, the abnormal Spirits of Form who have their centre in Saturn
work
indirectly via all the other systems into the glandular system. In the
Saturn race, therefore, in everything to which we must ascribe the
Saturn
character, we must expect to find the combination of the forces leading
to
the twilight of mankind, forces which set the seal upon its development
and
sow the seeds of its ultimate decline. This action and its effect upon
the
glandular system can be seen in the American Indian race and was the
cause
of its ultimate extinction.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 11:51:36 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Anthroposophy going mainstream
The Anthroposophic Press has announced a slick book obviously aimed
at improving the marketing of Steiner's philosophy to the New Age and
self-improvement crowd. See:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0880105070/ref=s_e5
The blurb:
For most of us, life is often a humdrum course of the same-old and
the nothing-new. We might dream of running away to exotic lands or
retreating to distant monasteries, but the whirligig of life never
seems to let us out of its clutches.
Michael Lipson offers a fresh way of looking at this old predicament.
Using exercises pioneered by the great spiritual teacher Rudolf
Steiner, he gives ancient, yet very timely, keys to freshening our
perceptions and opening our horizons.
The six steps on this stairway are thinking, doing, feeling, loving,
opening, and thanking. If they sound simple, that's because-in a
way-they are. They show us how to infuse consciousness and
mindfulness even into ordinary and overlooked parts of life.
Practiced for just a few minutes a day, they can reveal the surprise
in the universe that is usually hidden by stale, habitual attitudes.
This book will open your life to the surprising profoundness of the
simple and near-at-hand.
About the Author
Michael Lipson, Ph.D. is a clinical psychologist practicing in Great
Barrington, Massachusetts. He is the translator of Rudolf Steiner's
Intuitive Thinking as a Spiritual Path and Georg K¸hlewind's From
Normal to Healthy. Dr. Lipson's work combines the insights of Rudolf
Steiner with those of Zen Buddhism. He teaches meditation widely and
writes on issues of consciousness, human development, and meditative
practice.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 12:50:55 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Cc: SHARMAINEBARONE aol.com
Subject: Re: Linden Hill Happy Camper
Sharmaine, you wrote to PLANS,
) ) I
) ) am offended in your assumptions that the wool is being pulled
over my eyes.
)) I have two boys attending Linden Hill School in Wilton, CT. I find no
)) anthroposophical cult opinions in practice. We are all of
))diverse religious
) ) backgrounds and each and every teacher respects that.
But Anthroposophy teaches that "the Christ spirit" is a "sun spirit."
Your children pray to the sun every morning. Do you see any
connection? Would all Christians be comfortable with this if they
were fully aware? Would non-Christians?
Are you aware that some of the things taught as science in Waldorf
are not science at all, but Anthroposophical doctrine? For example,
have your children had the fourth-grade "man and animal" lesson?
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 22:31:19 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Walden, Peter S, Charlie, racism & kids
lumiere wrote:
) Walden and Peter Staudenmaier rightly want the unforthcoming Charlie
) Morrison to pony up the goods on his view of Steiner's racist statements
and
) their interpretation, perpetuation and unquestioning belief by
Anthroposophists
) of today.
)
) However, these arguments about Steiner-said-No-he-didn't (or at least he
didn't
) mean it) can go on for as long as there are people of opposing viewpoints
and
) new cannon-fodder from the Antroposophical rank and file to be drafted
into duty
) against the heathens of the critics list -- and little will be solved,
proved or
) progressed towards agreement.
)
) But there is a larger question that gets lost in these historically and
) contemporarily important, but ultimately academic, arguments about
Steiner's
) racism.
)
) What about the children?
)
) What about the beliefs of Steiner that are transmitted to the children in
Waldorf
) schools, through an esoteric, occult, magical brainwashing curriculum
parroted
) by Steiner's acolytes and priests and priestesses? Otherwise known as
) teachers -- a misnomer if ever there was one. (snip)
Exactly. " What about the children," indeed. That is what we need to
focus on. I think that by shedding as much light (lumiere!) on
Anthroposophy/Waldorf from as many sources as possible - the children will
ultimately be well served. Obviously, many parents do not see Waldorf in
the same light as many critics. Many parents have simply not had the
opportunity (or taken it) to understand what it is they have involved their
children in. I have walked in those shoes as have many here.
I believe we need to explore Steiner's beliefs including the
"Steiner-said-No-he-didn't (or at least he didn't
mean it)" angle as it is part of the process - albeit a time consuming and
very frustrating process. I remember my days of wearing rose colored
glasses whilst ignoring the *uncomfortable stuff* at our old school. I just
wanted *those quotes* (for example) to go away because they nagged at me and
would ultimately force me to rethink my sense of *community.* I wanted to
accept that I had "taken them out of context" when I knew darn well I was
fooling myself. But that is what I was told. "You mustn't take Steiner out
of context." Right.
What was that school really all about? What about the children?
I still grapple with these questions and hope to help shed light on them. I
am sincerely hoping that the Charlies of the anthro world can help us shed
light from their particular angle.
-Walden
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 865
-- Topica Digest --
smallpox vaccination
By Diana.Winters worldnet.att.net
Re: Linden Hill Happy Camper
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Linden Hill Happy Camper
By mysplum earthlink.net
Man and Animal Lesson
By qrejy hotmail.com
Toronto Waldorf School and government standards
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Toronto Waldorf School and government standards
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: encountering Steiner's racial doctrines
By charlie morrison5.fsnet.co.uk
Re: Linden Hill Happy Camper
By Gary GoodWinter.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 09:18:35 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters worldnet.att.net)
Subject: smallpox vaccination
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Steiner on smallpox:
"Suppose that a great number of people had felt impelled - due to
their unloving attitude to their fellow human beings - to absorb
certain infectious substances in order to succumb to an epidemic. Let
us further suppose that we could do something about this epidemic. In
that case we would prevent the outer physical nature from expressing
the unloving disposition while failing to remove the inner
inclination to unlovingness. What we need to envisage now is the
following: by removing the outer organ of unlovingness we actually
incur an obligation of working into the soul in such a way as to
remove its inclination to unlovingness. The organ of unlovingness is
killed in the most complete sense - in the outer physical sense -
through the smallpox vaccination. Spiritual scientific research has
shown, for example, that smallpox developed during a time when the
general inclination towards egotism and unlovingness reached a
particular climax. That is when smallpox emerged in the outer !
organism. This is a fact. In anthroposophy it is our duty to speak truthfully."
" ... Let us assume that many epidemics, communal causes of illness,
can be traced to the fact that victims are seeking to remove what
they have karmically fostered within themselves. This is the case,
for instance, with smallpox which is the organ of unlovingness.
Although we may be in a position to remove the possibility of this
disease, the cause of unlovingness would still remain, and the souls
in question would then be forced to seek another way for karmic
compensation either in this or in another incarnation."
What is going to happen in the Waldorf schools, if there is a mass
smallpox vaccination campaign in the US? Are they really going to
advise parents not to vaccinate against smallpox?
If they advise against vaccination, they will probably focus on the
fact that the smallpox vaccine is indeed risky, and contraindicated
for medical reasons for a large number of people. Will they also
explain to parents that if there were ever a bioterrorist attack,
those of us who contract smallpox will be actually "absorb[ing]
certain infectious substances in order to succumb to an epidemic" on
purpose? If you or your children don't need smallpox to counteract
your karmic tendency to unlovingness, you needn't worry, you won't
succumb anyway.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 10:54:14 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Cc: SHARMAINEBARONE aol.com
Subject: Re: Linden Hill Happy Camper
Sharmaine, thanks for your reply. You wrote,
)Why do you spend so much of your time on the Waldorf Schools when
)there are so many other groups in America that could use your
)talents to make this a better world.
I spend time on Waldorf education because I'm a former Waldorf
parent, I'm interested in it, and I've been studying it for thirteen
years.
)Linden Hill doesn't want to convert anyone to Anthrosophy, it's
)there if a person wants to educate themselves on what it is all
)about and then take what feels right to them and leave what doesn't.
That's fine with me. But how much do you tell parents about
Anthroposophy *before* they put their kids in Linden Hill?
)As far as my children singing to the sun in the morning, they are
)singing for the joy it brings their soul. I teach my children God
)is in everything, why not the sun?
Sounds like your family's religion is compatible with Anthroposophy.
It's good you've found a school that complements your spirituality.
)One thing I know for sure: my children are safe and loved while at school.
We hear a lot of complaints about chronic bullying that Waldorf
teachers refuse to remedy (it's the victim's karma, apparently, to
suffer), and unsupervised playgrounds. I think this is because the
Waldorf system is very unselective about who they hire as teachers,
and doesn't give any training in classroom management. You're lucky
your school has a culture that protects the children; in Waldorf that
seems to be a matter of luck, not design.
)I don't have to worry about guns, knives and violence entering their lives.
I don't think it's fair to imply that schools outside the Waldorf
fold have guns, knives, and violence. I suspect that if you compared
your school with a nearby private school with similar tuition, you
wouldn't find guns or knives there, either.
Unfortunately, there *is* a lot of violence at Waldorf schools; in
the curriculum (see the Norse myths in fourth grade), on unsupervised
playgrounds, and by out-of-control teachers.
)Why would you want to try and destroy this for my family?
Please read the mission statement of PLANS, Inc.:
http://www.waldorfcritics.org/active/mission.html
We have no problem with the existence of Waldorf education. We're
trying to make it more honest about its religious nature.
You didn't answer my question about whether your children had done
the fourth-grade "Man and Animal" lesson block.
Sincerely, Dan Dugan
Secretary, PLANS, Inc.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 15:46:54 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Linden Hill Happy Camper
on 11/4/02 10:54 AM, Dan Dugan at dan dandugan.com wrote:
) Sharmaine, thanks for your reply. You wrote,
)
)) Why do you spend so much of your time on the Waldorf Schools when
)) there are so many other groups in America that could use your
)) talents to make this a better world.
Sharon: I spend time on Waldorf because my family was duped by a Waldorf
school. We were told it was art based and nonsectarian, when in fact it was
neither of the two. I am trying to make this world a better place by
insisting that Waldorf be honest to parents about Steiner's esoteric
religion that informs all classroom activity.
)
)) Linden Hill doesn't want to convert anyone to Anthrosophy, it's
)) there if a person wants to educate themselves on what it is all
)) about and then take what feels right to them and leave what doesn't.
Sharon: The most successful vehicle for the dissemination of Anthroposophy
is the network of Waldorf Schools established in accordance with the
founder¼s precepts - though many parents have little, if any, historic
understanding of Steiner or his religion, Anthroposophy. The Waldorf School
Movement is superficially perceived as a trendy, alternative education
system because it is promoted as nonsectarian, art based, multicultural,
scientific, new education: critical investigation, however, reveals to the
contrary that these schools are instead centers of occult initiation -
modern mystery schools - where every aspect of the curriculum is rooted in
Anthroposophy and its incorporated magic and rituals. Anthroposophists have
a mission to re-spiritualize the earth al la Steiner. Children are subjected
to Anthroposophy in the classroom, often without parental knowledge or
sanction. I need only look at my daughter's Waldorf lessons to verify these
facts. Had the school been more honest with my family about who they are and
what their esoteric mission is, I would not have chosen a Waldorf school for
my child, and I would not be spending countless hours working to get Waldorf
to be honest to parents, and out of the public coffirs.
)) As far as my children singing to the sun in the morning, they are
)) singing for the joy it brings their soul. I teach my children God
)) is in everything, why not the sun?
Sharon: I don't believe in Christ the Sun Being so why would I want my child
to sing to it? Why was I not told that my child was being made to pray to
Steiner's Christ? I object. I reject volkisch Sun worship, makes me queasy -
I'm not crazy about the Aryan supremacy connection that is part of Steiner's
religion.
)) One thing I know for sure: my children are safe and loved while at school.
Sharon: You are parroting Waldorf's myth, as if Waldorf owns these
qualities!
)) I don't have to worry about guns, knives and violence entering their lives.
Sharon: I feel the same way about my child's present school, but who can be
certain? My child's Waldorf school was much less safe than her present
school - Waldorf had sharp knives, flames, germ bowls, low vaccination rate,
out of control classrooms and playground. There *have* been incidences of
violence at Waldorf schools, even a case in CO where a W pupil killed a
policeman.
)
)) Why would you want to try and destroy this for my family?
Sharon: Who's trying to destroy "this"for your family or Waldorf? The
questions are really: Why would Waldorf try to destroy the First Amendment?
Why is Waldorf not forthright about their religious mission and teachings?
Why does Waldorf lie about it's sectarian base? Why do Anthroposophists deny
that Steiner's doctrine is racist?
Exotericize esotericism! Keep church and state separate!
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 20:33:06 +0000
From: DW's Mom (qrejy hotmail.com)
Subject: Man and Animal Lesson
Dan, could you please let me know about this specific lesson and other
pseudo-scientific and pseudo mathematical information a child will be
exposed to in 1st through 8th grade?
DW's Dad wants to send him to Waldorf only through 8th grade now, and
I'd like him to know what his son will be learning.
Thank you.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 13:42:51 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Toronto Waldorf School and government standards
In the newsletter of the Waldorf School Association of Ontario, a
column from the Toronto Waldorf School celebrates a new tax credit
for school fees that their parents can take advantage of. There is a
move, however, to require standardized tests for eligibility. The
school urges parents to lobby for continuing the present "no strings
attached" program, and goes on to say:
"In October 2001, representatives of our school met with those of the
Minister of Education, Janet Ecker, to discuss the Grade 10 literacy
test. It was a most sobering and shocking meeting. We were told that
the government is not interested in the fact that Waldorf schools
find standardised testing to be a form of interference in curriculum
and pedagogy which violates our understanding that the Waldorf
teacher authors the curriculum presented to the children. We heard
that the government had no interest in our view, or in our right to
practise a conscientiously held belief. They were not willing to
explore parallel or alternative accreditation so that our schools
would not be compelled to participate in the tests. There was no
flexibility at all from their side."
(sarcasm) Shocking, indeed. Making sure that 10th-graders can pass a
literacy test. Barbaric! Maybe our students can't read and write but
they're *better*. Just because. (/sarcasm)
"We concluded that we travel on a different road. We had already
submitted our curriculum to the University of Toronto, the most
prestigious university in Ontario, to explore direct acceptance of
our graduates based only on our Waldorf diploma and grades. We have
subsequently been told that the University will accept our graduates
in humanities and biology, and we are currently awaiting a meeting,
in May, about chemistry and physics."
I wonder what they mean by "submitted our curriculum," since, as they
said above, "the Waldorf teacher authors the curriculum." I wonder if
the biology department at U of T knows that the heart is not a pump.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 17:17:02 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Toronto Waldorf School and government standards
on 11/4/02 1:42 PM, Dan Dugan at dan dandugan.com wrote:
) In the newsletter of the Waldorf School Association of Ontario, a
) column from the Toronto Waldorf School celebrates a new tax credit
) for school fees that their parents can take advantage of. There is a
) move, however, to require standardized tests for eligibility. The
) school urges parents to lobby for continuing the present "no strings
) attached" program, and goes on to say:
)
) "In October 2001, representatives of our school met with those of the
) Minister of Education, Janet Ecker, to discuss the Grade 10 literacy
) test. It was a most sobering and shocking meeting. We were told that
) the government is not interested in the fact that Waldorf schools
) find standardised testing to be a form of interference in curriculum
) and pedagogy which violates our understanding that the Waldorf
) teacher authors the curriculum presented to the children. We heard
) that the government had no interest in our view, or in our right to
) practise a conscientiously held belief. They were not willing to
) explore parallel or alternative accreditation so that our schools
) would not be compelled to participate in the tests. There was no
) flexibility at all from their side."
Sharon: Good for Canada!
)
) "We concluded that we travel on a different road.
Sharon: You ***sure do*** travel a different road, too bad you aren't more
open about what road it is!
We had already
) submitted our curriculum to the University of Toronto, the most
) prestigious university in Ontario, to explore direct acceptance of
) our graduates based only on our Waldorf diploma and grades. We have
) subsequently been told that the University will accept our graduates
) in humanities and biology, and we are currently awaiting a meeting,
) in May, about chemistry and physics."
)
) Dan: I wonder what they mean by "submitted our curriculum," since, as they
) said above, "the Waldorf teacher authors the curriculum." I wonder if
) the biology department at U of T knows that the heart is not a pump.
Sharon: Or that man is not an animal? Or that human beings have astral,
etheric and I bodies? Or that too much sex and desire for sensual pleasure
in a past life is the cause of pnemonia in this life? Or that Christ is a
Sun Being come to Earth? Or in September Michael is near? Or the human being
is like a little universe inside a big one? Sun, moon and stars find their
likeness in man's head, trunk and limbs...or...on and on it goes...
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 23:58:52 -0000
From: "Charlie Morrison" (charlie morrison5.fsnet.co.uk)
Subject: Re: encountering Steiner's racial doctrines
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 8:08 PM
Subject: encountering Steiner's racial doctrines
Peter writes (snip):
)You seem to be saying that your own lack of personal
) negative experience with Waldorf education accounts for your generally
) positive evaluation of anthroposophical doctrines, and you seem to suggest
) that critics of anthroposophy, in contrast, have not encountered Steiner
of
) their own free will. Without downplaying the negative experiences of many
of
) the former Waldorf parents on this list, I have to point out that this
) hypothesis (if it is indeed what you're getting at) is in error.
Charlie:
Hi Peter. No, I think my original empathy with Steiner was due, not to a
lack of anything, but to the beliefs I held prior to reading his works. I
can't see how, from what I wrote, that you would think I was making
generalisations about critics. I've been on this list long enough to know
that you're a pretty diverse bunch.
I was pondering that although I could find plenty to moan about concerning
my kids education, dealing with dogmatic anthroposophists wasn't one of
them. I was just trying to understand how some of the critics must feel.
I honestly am very short of time so I'll leave it there and concentrate on
replying to Walden's posts, but I'm sorry that it won't be right now. I
don't want to rush off a reply just for the sake of it.
warm regards,
Charlie.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 21:30:35 -0500
From: Gary Bonhiver (Gary goodwinter.com)
Cc: SHARMAINEBARONE aol.com
Subject: Re: Linden Hill Happy Camper
on 11/4/02 9:49 AM, SHARMAINEBARONE aol.com wrote:
) My son attended a private school in Fairfield, CT. By negative
force I simply
) mean that I saw students asked to leave who wouldn't perform according to the
) school's rules and regulations (this was not us).
If the entire set of "rules and regulations" were made clear in writing to
the family prior to their enrolling their child, and an effort was made to
correct any misunderstandings before asking them to leave, then I'm inclined
to agree. Note the critical caveats, though.
) Linden Hill opens it's classrooms to any student who's family wants a Waldorf
) Education.
Fine...but do they clearly and openly describe what Waldorf is truly all
about? Or do they give the party line and hide the esoteric occult
religious dogma before the child is enrolled, then slowly attempt to pull
the family in by offering "study sessions"? How do they respond to the many
overtly racist statements that Steiner made in his writings?
) If a student leaves a Waldorf school I would imagine it would be because they
) want a different form of education.
Or they had a bad teacher, a common occurrence in Waldorf, made worse by the
8-years that a child is placed with a single teacher. Or the school
administration did not deal effectively (or at all) with bullying or other
issues. Or the family was socially outcast by the Waldorf "community" when
they started asking innocent questions about the curriculum. This can be
quite a long list...but you get my point. It's not as simple as you
"imagine".
) Each family needs to find the appropriate education for their needs.
Yes. But they need to be fully informed honestly and completely before they
sign up for Waldorf, something that is NOT done by most Waldorf schools.
How much were you told about Steiner and Anthroposophy before you enrolled
your children? Were you given the party line (a lie) that "Anthroposophy is
not taught in the classroom"? (read about this on our web site and in the
discussion archives).
) Why spend time fighting Waldorf when there are those of use that feel this is
) the right education for our children.
Because of the blatant lying and hiding of information about the
underpinnings and Waldorf curriculum details that would influence a parent's
decision.
) This is America - we should have choices, right?
Yes, but we should have fully informed choices, a distinction which has been
very difficult until PLANS and others have begun to post the "hidden truths"
about Steiner, Anthroposophy and Waldorf.
...Gary
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 866
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Linden Hill Happy Camper
By mysplum earthlink.net
Man and Animal
By Diana.Winters worldnet.att.net
Re: Toronto Waldorf School and government standards
By Diana.Winters worldnet.att.net
Re: Toronto Waldorf School and government standards
By nmfoss hotmail.com
RE: Man and Animal
By qrejy hotmail.com
RE: Man and Animal
By feetapparel hotmail.com
RE: Man and Animal
By dan dandugan.com
Printing web pages...
By Gary GoodWinter.com
Re: Printing web pages...
By Gary GoodWinter.com
re: steiner and vaccination/chemical sensitivity
By willow.firesong creative-interweb.com
on MCS -- thanks for the info
By momof2gals mindspring.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 07:17:54 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Linden Hill Happy Camper
) on 11/4/02 9:49 AM, SHARMAINEBARONE aol.com wrote:
)
)) My son attended a private school in Fairfield, CT. By negative force I
)) simply
)) mean that I saw students asked to leave who wouldn't perform
according to the
)) school's rules and regulations (this was not us).
Sharon: Dan and his family were kicked out of Waldorf when Dan pointed out
that the school was selling books full of racist Steiner. Dan said, "That
was then, this is now". Many have found that you can't be "negative" in
Waldorf or you get kicked out. My family was not given the boot, we fled
after we were given a very bizarre prescription by an Anthro doctor that
woke us up to the fact that Waldorf is *much* more than meets the eye.
)) If a student leaves a Waldorf school I would imagine it would be
because they
)) want a different form of education.
Sharon: We left because we didn't want to prop up Anthroposophy and wander
down Steiner's racist path with Michael and the Sun Being towards the Sixth
Epoch. We left because we didn't want to be in a cult. We felt Waldorf
education was sub standard, we were concerned that our child would not be
properly educated for this life.
)) Each family needs to find the appropriate education for their needs.
Sharon: Exactly. My family would not have chosen Waldorf had we known that
Steiner's esoteric religion informs all classroom activity. The school
pretended to be nonsectarian and they continue to lie about Anthroposophy
not being a religion when it jolly well is one!
)) Why spend time fighting Waldorf when there are those of use that
feel this is
)) the right education for our children.
Sharon: Because the schools are duping people and irreversibly altering our
lives. The schools are also thumbing their noses at the First Amendment
which some of us hold dear.
)) This is America - we should have choices, right?
Sharon: Yes we should, but Waldorf needs to be open about their occult
mission and stop duping people. Waldorf should not be publicly funded. The
"law knows no heresy, and is committed to the support of no dogma, the
establishment of no sect" (Supreme Court 1871). This insures freedom of
religion and beliefs for all citizens.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 13:20:33 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters worldnet.att.net)
Subject: Man and Animal
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DW's Mom wrote:
)Dan, could you please let me know about this specific lesson and other
)pseudo-scientific and pseudo mathematical information a child will be
)exposed to in 1st through 8th grade?
That's a tall order there, DW's mom, but I'll give you a little
background from Steiner on the relationship of "man and animal" in
anthroposophy. This is from "Karma and the Animal Kingdom," a lecture
Steiner gave May 17, 1910 (from Manifestations of Karma, London:
Rudolf Steiner Press, 1995). It's the same lecture Klaudia quoted
from the other day (I'm still cracking up about the wolf in Alaska
behaving badly and affecting the group karma of the wolves in Norway;
Klaudia's humorous attempt to explain the "group soul" and "group
karma" Steiner posited for animals).
Steiner starts by explaining that humans should treat animals kindly.
They do have souls, they are not "automatons." But they don't have
individual souls like humans, and they don't reincarnate as humans
do. They don't have "I's."
He then comments on how animals have many abilities that humans don't
have, and which the animal possesses instinctively, without the long
learning curve humans have just to walk and talk. The beaver doesn't
have to go to school to learn to build his house, for instance.
However, in the "primeval past" humans did in fact have powers such
as beaver-style house building that we now have lost and that are
retained by animals. "So man originally brought with him more
abundant powers, which he does not bring today. The peculiar
phenomenon comes to light, that originally man and animal were
similarly endowed; and if we were to go back to the old Saturn
evolution, we should find that there was absolutely no difference
between human and animal development." What happened in the meantime
was that man "turned towards an inner organisation the special forces
which we see manifested in the external achievements of animals."
Steiner described the primeval periods of the Earth's own evolution
as first a Saturn evolution, then a Sun evolution, then a Moon
evolution. Back when we all really lived on Saturn, we (humans) were
at a stage he calls "animal-humanity." (One can read volumes on all
the cosmic evolutions; here he limits himself to explaining that the
Earth, Moon, and Sun were once one, and at various times the Sun and
then the Moon split off from the earth, so that Man could develop
correctly. It just wasn't possible otherwise; the state of the Earth
was "too dense.") Anyway, a central theme in Steiner is always that
during human or planetary evolution, "certain beings" are not quite
with the program and a few "remain behind" the "general evolution."
Actually, it is karmically necessary that they do so; they are making
a kind of sacrifice for the good of those evolving onward.
Anyway (probably you can see where this is going), in this case the
animals remained behind so that we, humans, could advance:
"Thus we have a humanity which has only become possible through man's
freeing himself from the beings which live around him in the lower
kingdoms. At one time we were bound up with these beings, with all
their forces, in the flow of evolution like the denser constituents
in water. We have risen above them and in this way our development
has been made possible. Thus we look down upon the three kingdoms of
nature around us, and see in them something which had to become a
basis for our development. These beings have sunk in order that we
might be able to rise. In this manner we look upon the subordinate
kingdoms of nature in the right way."
Our present animal kingdom, he explains, consists of organisms which
have preserved the "Moon character," because they were "incapable of
becoming bearers of human individualities." "Let us now ask how the
animals with their more rigid organisms have appeared on the earth.
They came down through us. They are the descendants of the bodies
which we no longer wished to occupy after the exit of the Moon. We
left those bodies behind in order to find others later, and we should
not have been able to find others later, if we had not forsaken those
at that precise time. For only after the exit of the Sun could we
continue our progress on the Earth. We left behind us, as it were,
certain beings, in order that we ourselves might find the possibility
of rising higher. In order to rise higher we had to go to other
planets and leave the bodies below to go to ruin, and in a certain
sense we owe what we are to what remains below."
Steiner concludes that we owe compassion and kindness to the animals
because they have in a sense made a sacrifice on our behalf, and
because they feel pain but cannot rise above it the way we can. (We
use pain and suffering to advance karmically - in fact we bring pain
on ourselves in order to advance karmically - but animals merely
suffer.)
One question (of many, of course) that arises from this is, if we did
*not* owe animals a karmic debt for their evolutionary sacrifice for
us, would we *not* be obliged to show them kindness? (Simpler reasons
to show kindness to animals suggest themselves.)
How this stuff comes out in the Waldorf curriculum is a whole other
post, which I will try to do later. The focus is determined by these
anthroposophical principles. Quoting A.C. Harwood, Recovery of Man in
Childhood (A Study in the Educational Work of Rudolf Steiner, New
York: The Myrin Institute, 1958): ". . . one attitude which is
essential to maintain . . . is the attitude of relating all things to
Man . . . in some way all nature realised itself in Man . . . Man
will be the centre from which we shall start our exploring and to
which we shall always return. Let us suppose that we are
investigating the animal kingdom . . . to form an imaginative picture
in which the animals are seen in relation to man." (pp.110-11).
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 13:31:23 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters worldnet.att.net)
Subject: Re: Toronto Waldorf School and government standards
Dan quotes the newsetter of the Waldorf Association of Ontario:
)We were told that the government is not interested in the fact that Waldorf
)schools find standardised testing to be a form of interference in
)curriculum and pedagogy which violates our understanding that the Waldorf
)teacher authors the curriculum presented to the children.
It is a peculiar statement, with a familiar narcissistic air - the
government is "violating" their understanding of themselves? That's what it
actually says, and I don't think it's just a strange sentence construction.
They really feel violated and shocked that the outside world is interested
in their results, not their spiritual quest.
"But we want to be up on a pedestal; the Waldorf teacher is an exalted
being."
"Yeah? Really? What do the kids learn in your class?"
(pout)"You're violating our understanding of ourselves as authors of our own
curriculum . . ."
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 14:46:01 -0500
From: "Nicole Foss" (nmfoss hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Toronto Waldorf School and government standards
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Nicole:
I don't have a problem with Waldorf (or any other school) objecting
to standardized testing of young children (it starts at age 7 in
Ontario). I object to it myself on the grounds that children can be
made to feel like failures at an early age before they've really had
a chance to develop testable abilities, particularly in the academic
sphere. I would rather that pressure be reserved for older children
and adults who can handle it and benefit from the focus it provides.
I therefore would not object in principle to testing grade 10
students for literacy.
I understand, however, from hearing my erstwhile collegues discuss
the opinions of their Toronto peers, that the objection was that the
standards implicit in the government test were derisory. It is
possible that this is true (although I have not seen the test myself
as my own children are too young), given that literacy amongst older
children does not seem to be a problem at our school or at the one in
Toronto. If what I have seen is anything to go by (our school only
goes up to grade 8 so it's not an exact comparison), their standards
in English (although certainly not in math or science) seem to be
well in excess of what is achieved in the public system. Our grade
7/8 did a truly phenomenal performance of Much Ado About Nothing,
which the whole school watched entranced for 2 hours. Shakespeare
clearly 'spoke to' these children. I've seen less professional
productions by professional theatre groups and it's inconceivable to
me that the local K-8 public school could have achi!
eved such a thing. Most of the children similarly write very well and
read constantly. I am concerned about the few special needs kids, of
whom my daughter is one, who fall behind and don't get the help that
they need to address the specific problems they have.
Some Waldorf schools can achieve wonderful things in certain
subjects, but the problem, academically speaking, is inconsistency,
both within and between schools. On top of that there are the obvious
governance issues and Steiner's offensive and preposterous
dogma.......
----- Original Message -----
From: Diana Winters
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 1:31 PM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Re: Toronto Waldorf School and government standards
Dan quotes the newsetter of the Waldorf Association of Ontario:
)We were told that the government is not interested in the fact that Waldorf
)schools find standardised testing to be a form of interference in
)curriculum and pedagogy which violates our understanding that the Waldorf
)teacher authors the curriculum presented to the children.
It is a peculiar statement, with a familiar narcissistic air - the
government is "violating" their understanding of themselves? That's what it
actually says, and I don't think it's just a strange sentence construction.
They really feel violated and shocked that the outside world is interested
in their results, not their spiritual quest.
"But we want to be up on a pedestal; the Waldorf teacher is an exalted
being."
"Yeah? Really? What do the kids learn in your class?"
(pout)"You're violating our understanding of ourselves as authors of our own
curriculum . . ."
FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 21:22:29 +0000
From: DW's Mom (qrejy hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Man and Animal
Diana Winters wrote:
) How this stuff comes out in the Waldorf curriculum is a whole other
) post, which I will try to do later.
DW's Mom:
I would appreciate that so much, because DW's Dad doesn't care a whit
what Steiner thought or said or wrote, or how those thoughts influence
the teachers, he will only respond to what will be DIRECTLY taught to
our son in the school. Knowing what Anthros believe bothers me, but
knowing what they teach is the only thing that is going to get my son
out of that school.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 22:35:26 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Man and Animal
This is a pretty tall order. Even if you collect details of what's taught
generally in Wladorf schools, you will also have to show that is what is
taught specifically at your school, and indeed by your childs class teacher.
I can't see any way of doing this unless you have access to teaching
materials from the last time that teacher went around.
Of course anty statistician worth his or her salt should be interested in
the outcomes of the school and the statistics that are available for that.
The question ought to be going back to the statistician "How do you know (or
why do you believe) that this education will produce (I've forgotten your
terminolgy) an all round person?"
Peter Farrell
)From: DW's Mom (qrejy hotmail.com)
)Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)Subject: RE: Man and Animal
)Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 21:22:29 +0000
)
)Diana Winters wrote:
) ) How this stuff comes out in the Waldorf curriculum is a whole other
) ) post, which I will try to do later.
)
)DW's Mom:
)I would appreciate that so much, because DW's Dad doesn't care a whit
)what Steiner thought or said or wrote, or how those thoughts influence
)the teachers, he will only respond to what will be DIRECTLY taught to
)our son in the school. Knowing what Anthros believe bothers me, but
)knowing what they teach is the only thing that is going to get my son
)out of that school.
)
_________________________________________________________________
Unlimited Internet access -- and 2 months free!Ý Try MSN.
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 16:17:00 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: RE: Man and Animal
Peter Farrell wrote,
)This is a pretty tall order. Even if you collect details of what's
)taught generally in Wladorf schools, you will also have to show that
)is what is taught specifically at your school, and indeed by your
)childs class teacher. I can't see any way of doing this unless you
)have access to teaching materials from the last time that teacher
)went around.
You could ask to see a lesson book. Of course, most likely the
teacher is going around the fist time. But we do have the and
handbooks that the teachers probably use to prepare.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 23:58:03 -0500
From: Gary Bonhiver (gary goodwinter.com)
Subject: Printing web pages...
A few web visitors have complained that when they printed our web pages,
some were chopped off on the right side.
I believe I've fixed the problem with printing our pages, so if you were one
of those having problems, please try again.
Some of our articles are actually links to other web addresses, which we
have no control over formatting.
If you continue to have difficulty, please email me the links to the
specific pages, and I'll take another look.
Thanks for your patience!
...Gary Bonhiver
www.waldorfcritics.org Webmaster
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 00:21:36 -0500
From: Gary Bonhiver (gary goodwinter.com)
Subject: Re: Printing web pages...
Regrettably, I didn't test the page using Netscape Navigator (something that
is usually do), which now causes the web pages to scroll off the right side
of the screen. Internet Explorer works just fine.
I may have to revert back to the older site to make for better web surfing
until I solve the Netscape problem.
Sorry!
...Gary
on 11/5/02 11:58 PM, Gary Bonhiver at gary goodwinter.com wrote:
) A few web visitors have complained that when they printed our web pages, some
) were chopped off on the right side.
)
) I believe I've fixed the problem with printing our pages, so if you were one
) of those having problems, please try again.
)
) Some of our articles are actually links to other web addresses, which we have
) no control over formatting.
)
) If you continue to have difficulty, please email me the links to the specific
) pages, and I'll take another look.
)
) Thanks for your patience!
)
) ...Gary Bonhiver
)
) www.waldorfcritics.org Webmaster
)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 15:34:01 +1030
From: Willow Firesong (Willow.Firesong creative-interweb.com)
Subject: re: steiner and vaccination/chemical sensitivity
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At 02-11-02 10:29 PM Saturday, Lisa wrote:
)BarleySinger, you write:
)
)In my case it is because my entire family has problems with chemical
)sensitivity(in my wife it is life threateningly extreme) and they insist on
)putting mercury, formaldehyde and benzene in stuff that they make for
)injecting into babies ...
)
)Lisa here: How do you know that your health problems are caused by reactions
)to these chemicals you mention?
Well, perhaps I can help answer that for you, as I'm one of the people who
has those problems.
Your question really has two parts:
1) How do we know that these reactions can be caused by those
chemicals?
and
2) How do we know that that is what is happening in each of our
cases?
As for the former question, sources of information abound, if you're
willing to put in the work, as I'm sure you found when you were researching
this topic for yourself. I tend to prefer sources such as the Materials
Safety Data Sheets, used by government agencies such as the FDA in
determining a product's status, and research articles published in peer
reviewed journals.
In addition to sources of that nature, though, I must admit that direct
observation is pretty convincing as well.
That brings us to your second question. Both factors apply in my case -
I've been pretty thoroughly worked up by the doctors, who have been almost
uniformly (with the exception of one doctor who refused to accept copies of
my medical record, or the verdict of the members of his own evaluation
team) led to the same conclusion, due to the inescapable nature of the
symptoms in my case; I'm a textbook case, in many ways, though I have an
assortment of complicating factors as well (the point which misled the
doctor mentioned above as the exception to the rule).
Among other things, I have repeatable, objectively observable reactions
that have occurred under double-blind conditions, using materials otherwise
indistinguishable from one another.
For another, as with the classic food-allergy self-testing methods, when
those substances to which each of us is sensitive are present, we (my
husband, daughter, and I) suffer from a set of symptoms on an unavoidable
and ongoing basis, which are eliminated when these substances are removed
from our personal environment, and which return when/if those substances
are later reintroduced. That, for instance, is how we tracked down the
problems with chlorinated water, though we aren't sure whether they stem
from chlorine, chloramine, the chloroform which is formed as a byproduct of
water chlorination in a pressurized system, the organochlorenes formed by
the chemical reaction between the chlorination and the organic matter in
our water (we're out in the country, there's more sediment in the water,
and the local water council has incorrectly chosen to add more chlorine out
here as a result - which is the wrong choice, because it has the
unfortunate result of promoting the formation of more organochlorenes), or
some combination of the above. We only know that I was having migraines
and other nasty reactions (including suicidal depressive episodes which
would hit regardless of my mood, and lasted between 2.5 and 4 hours each,
reliably, whereupon I would return to my previous mood) and/or passing out
*every* time I was exposed to chlorinated tap water.
Some of the reactions are immediate and obvious, like the highly-visible
and indisputable chemical burns I was getting from our water before I
switched to using exclusively water from our rainwater tank (filtered and
boiled), or the reaction I got the last time that I touched newsprint - all
of the skin on the tip of my finger prickled, turned red with white
blotches, and then blistered up down to the lowest living layer of skin,
falling off in a single piece a week later. I have immediate dermal
reactions to a variety of substances, which can and do occur even when the
only contact takes place while I'm asleep - something I believe that you
won't generally find with psychosomatic symptoms, even if that particular
theory were not rendered highly unlikely by the fact that in most cases, at
least, the symptoms themselves are known reactions to the substance in
question, and are, for instance, listed in its Materials Safety Data Sheet.
Then there are the anaphylactic reactions... But for this sort of purpose,
I find it's generally more convincing to cite the objectively obvious
symptoms, rather than those which are less visible to an observer, like a
chronic - or even acute and rapidly growing - inability to breathe (at
least until the point where my face starts turning funny colours, that's
pretty objectively visible), or the panic attacks which continued unbroken
for 3 days straight, until we found and removed the last stray sheet of
Bounce fabric softener left in the house, which had been caught under the
recliner in which I spent the majority of my waking hours.
(For more on fabric softeners, please see
http://www.ourlittleplace.com/fabric.html)
Unfortunately for me (and other sufferers), many of the symptoms associated
with this condition don't show on the outside in a nice easily detectable
way. It would be so much simpler if I just turned highway-department
orange when I'm in pain, or something like that...
I have had standard allergy testing which showed reactions to a wide range
of food and environmental substances, as well; those included one doozy of
a reaction which generally disturbs people more than the MCS - namely, the
fact that ANY exposure to chocolate makes me suicidal, even in those kinds
of skin tests (which aren't supposed to elicit systemic symptoms, merely
dermal reactions).
But, after that, when you've repeatedly seen the same results from
accidental skin scratches with materials contaminated with the substances
under discussion, as those which occurred in the prick testing methods of
allergy testing, it's hard not to reach the conclusion that the giant red
welts mean the same thing in both cases - the welt is caused by a physical
allergy, hypersensitivity, or toxicity reaction to the substance which was
scratched into the skin, and that it is reasonable to posit an association
between the welting and the other symptoms reliably associated with exposure.
) I am very interested in the subject of multiple chemical
)hypersensitivity, as I spent almost six months researching the topic for a
)newspaper story I wanted to do. As part of my research, I spent hours with
)more than a dozen people who believed that their health problems (which
)ranged from vicious headaches and roaming pain to weak muscles,
)deteriorating eyesight, etc.) were caused by exposure to various
)petrochemicals. I also spent hours interviewing doctors and scientists on
)the subject.
) I found the whole thing intriguing. Unfortunately, I was unable to get
)the article in print (this was in the late 80s) because I was unable to find
)a credible doctor or scientist at the time who believed that there was such
)a thing as chemical hypersensitivity.
I know what you mean - I first became severely affected by this condition,
in a non-ignorable way (meaning that I worked in a hospital until I
couldn't get out of bed under my own power, then wound up spending most of
a year and a half having to be carried to the loo, using a wheelchair for
part of that time), right at the beginning of the 90's, and the level of
medical knowledge then available about MCS was pretty limited.
Fortunately, since that time, there has been a lot of both controlled
scientific and empirical medical research into this
condition. Unfortunately for all concerned, a lot of it was due to the
folks who suffered from various forms of "Gulf War Syndrome", to whom I
extend my sympathy, and acknowledge a debt of gratitude for their work in
getting doctors and researchers to take this condition more seriously. For
instance, the research into the blood-brain barrier permeability aspects of
chemical exposure and its effects on the neurochemistry of the brain came
directly out of the research into Gulf War Syndrome.
If you are interested in making good use of your previous journalistic
research, perhaps by doing an article on MCS comparing attitudes then and
now, you might want to contact researchers like Dr. Buchwald at Harborview
Medical Center (part of the highly respected University of Washington
Medical Center group), who runs the Chronic Fatigue Syndrome study I was
enrolled in for several years - I believe their findings are leading to
closer scrutiny of the link between CFS and MCS.
Partly as a result of the overwhelming body of information accumulating on
the subject, there has been a serious change of position on an official
level, as well. One way in which this is demonstrated is the several major
US government agencies which have acknowledged it to not only be a real
condition, but a disabling one. These include (at one relatively recent
count): 22 Federal Government agencies, Commissions, Institutes &
Departments; 23 State Government Agencies, Commissions, Legislatures &
Departments; 13 Local Government agencies, Commissions, Councils &
Departments; 8 federal Court Decisions; 20 State Court Decisions; 14 State
Workers' Comp.Board Decisions; 4 Canadian Federal agencies; 6 Canadian
Provincial Agencies (MCSRR)
Government Sources
Though lacking "official" recognition, a number of Federal agencies have
posted MCS related topics on the Web (NOISH, NIEHS, EPA, OSHA).
A. Reports/Websites related to MCS
1. Environmental Health Policy Committee (EHPC)
[Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS)]
… EHPC published A Report on Multiple Chemical Sensitivity (MCS):
Predecisional Draft (Interagency Workgroup Report) in 1998.
… EHPC member organizations: Agency for Toxic Substance and
Disease Registry, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Food and Drug
Administration, Indian Health Service, National Institute of Health, Office
of the Chief Counsel [Public Health Service]
1.1 Responses to the Interagency Draft Report on MCS by H & ERC
The following organizations objected to elements of the report. Listed
below are links to their responses to the Interagency report.
… Ecological Health Organization (ECHO)
… Environmental Health Association
… Environmental Health Network (EHN) of California
… Massachusetts Association for the Chemically Injured (MACI)
2. National Center for Environmental Health (NCEH)
[Center on Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) ( DHHS]
… CDC, in conjunction with the Office of Public Health and Science,
the National Institutes of Health, and the Agency for Toxic Substances and
Disease Registry held a research planning conference on The Health Impact
of Chemical Exposures During the Gulf War. The Background Documents on
Gulf-War Related Research has a small section on "Multiple Chemical
Sensitivity in Gulf War Veterans" (Under Gulf War Illnesses: Research
Results).
3. National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences (NIEHS)
[National Institute of Health (NIH) ( DHHS)
… MCS on Alphabetical Listing of Environmental Health Topics.
4. Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA)
[Department of Labor]
… OSHA published Technical Information on MCS.
5. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)
… The Publication "Indoor Air Pollution: An Introduction for Health
Professionals" (U.S. Government Printing Office Publication No.
1994-523-217/81322 1994) was co-produced by the American Lung Association
(ALA), Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), Consumer Product Safety
Commission (CPSC), and American Medical Association (AMA). Current
perspectives on multiple chemical sensitivity are addressed.
… References on Multiple Chemical Sensitivities
See also the EPA report on the chemicals found in scented
products, which makes reference to chemical sensitivity in its
introduction, as follows:
"In an attempt to broaden the number of microenvironments and
chemical classes studied, the U.S. EPA sponsored a study of polar chemicals
emitted from 31 consumer products and 16 microenvironments. Polar chemicals
such as alcohols, aldehydes, esters, and ketones are of interest because of
their odorous and irritant properties. Complaints of odors and eye, nose,
and throat irritation are often encountered, particularly in the office
environment, as part of a complex of symptoms known as Sick Building
Syndrome (SBS)(4). Some people may be unusually sensitive to odors or
irritant properties of these chemicals (chemical sensitivity)(5). Both SBS
and chemical sensitivity may be widespread enough to have significant
effects on the country's productivity and health care costs."
http://www.ourlittleplace.com/epa.html
B. Federal & State government Interest/Actions (for more detailed
information, see ATSDR Interagency Workgroup Report)
… Several states have taken political or legal action to recognize
MCS: California, Colorado, Connecticut, Florida, Louisiana, Maryland,
Michigan, Minnesota, New Hampshire, Ohio, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Washington,
West Virginia, and Wisconsin
(ATSDR Interagency Workgroup Report).
… Federal agencies taking steps to recognize MCS include the
Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD), the Social Security
Administration (SSA), NIEHS, and ATSDR. NIEHS and ATSDR have helped
organize and coordinate several national seminars on MCS
(ColoradoHealthnet Org).
Please see http://www.uic.edu/depts/idhd/ced/emergent_conditions/mcs.htm
(the source of the above-cited reference list) for an excellent concise
overview of some of the developments in recognition and research into this
increasingly common condition.
You might also be interested in tidbits like the action of Governor Jeb
Bush of Florida, who declared an MCS Awareness Week, May 7-13 2000 - in a
proclamation which points out (among other things) that MCS is recognized
under the Americans with Disabilities Act.
http://www.ourlittleplace.com/proclamation.html
) I ask, BarleySinger, not to challenge you (I did this research a long
)time ago, in scientific terms!) but because I am interested. No doubt a lot
)of research has been done since my attempt to write about chemical
)sensitivity, and I would appreciate hearing a bit of what you know.
I respect and appreciate this position. If you're interested in learning a
lot more about the experience of having MCS, as opposed to the clinical
side of it, you can see one of my favorite websites on the subject at
http://www.ourlittleplace.com/mcs.html - they DO have a lot of information
on the clinical side, but it's aimed more at patients, family, and friends,
rather than at practicioners. If you prefer books, there's a wealth to
choose from - "Osler's Web" is the one that convinced my sister, the
biochemist. For those among us who appreciate moving media, there's also
been significant coverage of MCS-related issues, including the forms of MCS
related to xenoestrogens, by Dr. David Suzuki, in his television program
"The Nature of Things".
I hope this answers some of your questions - if you have more, I run a
mailing list which is largely for people who have MCS (you'll find contact
information listed in my signature), and you're welcome to join us there
and learn more.
There is a wealth of information available on the subject at this time,
though regrettably much of the research is still in the stages where it is
not yet resulting in practical treatment protocols. The only really
reliable one at this point seems to be avoidance; allergy treatment is
considered inadvisable for MCS sufferers, as there are a number of cases of
people acquiring MCS in response to the preservative chemicals found in the
allergy shots used for many years.
To bring this conversation full circle, that last point is another reason
why I consider it inappropriate for those chemicals to remain in widespread
use in preserving injectable medications including vaccines, as it not only
reduces the access of MCS patients to these treatments, but can bring on
the acute onset of MCS in a susceptible patient who has not yet reached
that point - rather similar to the transition from HIV+ to full-blown AIDS,
in both severity and the desire to avoid it in order to retain quality (and
even sustainability) of life.
Why is this relevant to a Waldorf Critics list? Is it relevant at all? I
think it is - because this health problem was one of our main reasons for
considering Waldorf Education for our child, especially in the face of the
concerns raised by our interviews with the school representatives prior to
enrolling her.
Likewise, it is this health problem that dictates much of the common ground
which we appear (on the surface, at least) to have in common with Waldorf,
and which makes the situation such that we cannot afford, as many
Waldorf-survivor parents do, to reject and/or dismiss that common ground in
our negative reaction to the harm done by our interaction with the
school. For instance, like it or not, we maintain one contact with the
local Waldorf school - they run the store where we shop for the majority of
our groceries, as they are the cheapest local source of all-organic fruit &
veg that makes it possible for us to afford our medically-mandated
all-organic diet. And, in another example, we cannot afford to dismiss our
avoidance of vaccines for our child as the result of propaganda from
Waldorf or anyone else.
Willow Firesong
GreenCanary-owner yahoogroups.com
Willow Firesong's Circle of Firelight in the Grove of Information
http://members.tripod.com/~Willow_Firesong
http://home.talkcity.com/SpiritCir/WillowFiresong
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 01:34:48 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: on MCS -- thanks for the info
Willow Firesong and BarleySinger --
Wow! I asked and you answered. Please accept my thanks for taking so much
time to answer my question about multiple chemical hypersensitivity. I have
lots of reading in front of me!
During the six months I spent researching this condition, I interviewed
about a dozen people who believed they had sensitivity to various chemicals
-- mostly, petrochemicals. Their stories were very convincing and
disturbing, so I was very frustrated when my stories were scrapped based on
lack of "evidence" by doctors. It is good to hear that progress has been
made in defining this condition and getting those who suffer from it some
help!
Frankly, it sounds horrible. I am not sure how someone afflicted with MCS
can live in the modern world. One lady I interviewed had the financial means
with which to build a home of "safe" materials, and to use only the water,
food, etc. she could tolerate. It was not so, however, for so many others.
Thanks again ..
Lisa
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 867
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Man and Animal
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: Man and Animal
By Diana.Winters worldnet.att.net
Re: Toronto Waldorf School and government standards
By Diana.Winters worldnet.att.net
Re: Man and Animal
By Diana.Winters worldnet.att.net
Re: Man and Animal
By owenapp suscom-maine.net
RE: Man and Animal
By qrejy hotmail.com
Re: Man and Animal
By Diana.Winters worldnet.att.net
Re: Man and Animal
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Man and Animal
By Diana.Winters worldnet.att.net
Re: Toronto Waldorf School and government standards
By nmfoss hotmail.com
Re: Toronto Waldorf School and government standards
By feetapparel hotmail.com
Re: Toronto Waldorf School and government standards
By nmfoss hotmail.com
Re: Toronto Waldorf School and government standards
By feetapparel hotmail.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 07:11:05 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Man and Animal
on 11/5/02 2:35 PM, Peter Farrell at feetapparel hotmail.com wrote:
) This is a pretty tall order. Even if you collect details of what's taught
) generally in Wladorf schools, you will also have to show that is what is
) taught specifically at your school, and indeed by your childs class teacher.
) I can't see any way of doing this unless you have access to teaching
) materials from the last time that teacher went around.
Sharon: DW's mom, you could send your son's lesson books from previous years
to Dan for review to see how much Anthro doctrine is in them?
My family left Waldorf during fourth grade, so my daughter's Man and Animal
studies are more sparse than usual. Ever noticed how few pages in those
lesson books are actually used by the end of the school year?! It's a good
thing - I shudder when I read some of this stuff - can only imagine what was
said verbally and not copied into lesson books. I will quote from my
daughter's lesson book on Man and Animal to give you a sense of what she was
being taught (lots of Anthro. content).
First page, Sharon's daughter wrote: "Sun, moon and stars above me weave
within the heavens blue may I on earth a pattern weave of words and deeds as
true.
Head be clearer. Heart be truer. Fears be fewer. Freedom nearer."
Second page: "Head Trunk and limbs
The human being is like a little universe inside a big one. Sun, moon and
stars find their likeness in mans head, trunk and limbs. Each part has its
special work.
Our heads are the quietest part of us. The eyes, ears, nose and mouth are
our windows and doors. Our senses bring us messages from the outside world.
We understand these messages in our thoughts. Our limbs are our servants.
Our legs carry us to where we want to go. Our hands can work good or evil in
the world. As humans we can choose. Between head and limbs is the trunk. Our
trunk is a combination of the roundness of our head and the straightness of
our limbs. There resides the rhythm of heart and lungs.
What head plans and the heart feels is good and true, the hands can do".
Sharon: Next page has a picture of a rock, a human with the Sun, an animal,
a plant and a plus sign or cross in the middle. Digest the above, and I'll
continue tomorrow.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 08:34:08 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters worldnet.att.net)
Subject: Re: Man and Animal
)DW's Mom:
)I would appreciate that so much, because DW's Dad doesn't care a whit
)what Steiner thought or said or wrote, or how those thoughts influence
)the teachers, he will only respond to what will be DIRECTLY taught to
)our son in the school.
DW's dad is slightly in denial, I'm afraid. Documenting what they do in
the classroom is harder because they don't like to let even friendly parents
in, let alone unsympathetic observers, and we can only examine the lesson
books of
parents who have taken their children out, if they've kept them and they and
their children do not mind their work being scrutinized.
You might mention to him that the Harwood book which I quoted (and which I
will quote more from later) was recommended to me by our teachers when I was
a teaching assistant, and I can think of at least two of them that I know
adhered to it. I doubt they were the only two Waldorf teachers in the world
who had drawn lesson plans or inspiration from it.
It is subtle. The parent sees pretty pictures, with text that sounds
perhaps a tad odd but not necessarily disturbing. I remember an old post
from David Cann sharing his child's innocuous-sounding man and animal
lesson. He thought it was all very sweet. I flipped to the Harwood chapter
and found the precise sequence of animals he described outlined by Harwood,
with the anthroposophic reasons the animals needed to be taught in that
sequence (because they corresponded to various spiritual qualities). I'll
try to find that old post.
It takes some study to figure out what the philosophy is that underlies
these strange little lessons. Many students
probably do not get the point (that animals represent outward expressions of
capabilities that "Man" possesses inwardly
and animals lag behind in spiritual evolution while man has advanced by
turning these qualities inward and integrating them). Quite
possibly the teacher doesn't always get it either, as it is very peculiar
and very obscure. This gives them great deniability, doesn't it, if many
people involved in it are a little mixed up about what they're doing. Still,
Waldorf teachers often seem to cling very tightly to things they've been
taught must be done a certain way, and being challenged, or not being sure
of the reasons, seems to make them cling even tighter.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 08:43:09 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters worldnet.att.net)
Subject: Re: Toronto Waldorf School and government standards
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Nicole:
)I don't have a problem with Waldorf (or any other school)
objecting to standardized testing of young )children (it starts at
age 7 in Ontario).
I don't either - I wasn't responding to the issue of standardized
testing, rather to Waldorf's insularity, their belief that nobody
should ever ask them to explain themselves, that they should walk
their "different road" with everyone else waving and cheering and
never asking them where the heck these kids are going to end up on
this road.
I don't favor standardized testing for 7 year olds, but 10th
graders are quite another matter.
The great English and drama program at your Waldorf school
(Shakespeare production etc.) is great to hear about. I know that
some good teachers with talents like these are attracted to Waldorf
and I'm sure they're doing great things.
We shouldn't assume the public schools can't do this, however. We
took our son out of the public school here last year, because of a
lot of concerns about the overall environment. However, their music
and drama were absolutely fabulous - I also saw some really stunning
performances, and these kids also sounded a lot better than some
professional groups, and we're talking about some kids from very
deprived inner city neighborhoods, not all privileged suburban kids.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 08:43:29 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters worldnet.att.net)
Subject: Re: Man and Animal
Peter to DW's mom:
)you will also have to show that is what is
)taught specifically at your school, and indeed by your childs class
teacher.
)I can't see any way of doing this unless you have access to teaching
)materials from the last time that teacher went around.
But that might be possible if he/she still has them, and you sound
sympathetic. Or could you ask other parents at the school whose children
have already done fourth grade? Just tell them your ex is interested in the
curriculum, you don't have to say that you are skeptical.
In fact, if you say that you understand it all comes from Steiner, and
exclaim over how fascinating and wonderful it all is - use their buzz words,
say it is wonderful how it lives in the children or something like that -
you might even find someone willing to explain exactly where it comes from
in Steiner. If you ask the same questions implying you think Steiner was a
kook, of course they will deny it comes from Steiner at all.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 08:47:40 -0500
From: "Owen Appraisal" (owenapp suscom-maine.net)
Subject: Re: Man and Animal
From our son's 4th Grade lesson book (he entered the school just before the
Man/Animal lesson):
1st page: - entitled "Hand"
"See the infant watch his hand,
Not as a body part to command.
But as a lively guest from a magic land -
A guest who wills to live with me
To do all I do and be all I'll be."
2nd page: - entitled "Man and Animal"
"Every animal is a specialist. Whether swimmer, flyer, runner, or digger,
there are some things he can do extremely well. But at what will he excel?
His body has already shown for him.
In this sense, no human being is a specialist. His form serves his human
spirit. At what will he excel? The choice is his."
3rd page: - Entitled The Animal "Hands"
Drawings of a fox's front claws, an eagle's left wing, and seal's flipper,
and a horse's front hoof.
There are a few pages devoted to drawings and a cow poem
"Half the time they munched the grass, and all the time they lay down in the
water - meadows in the lazy month of May
A-chewing
A-mooing
To pass the hours away.
'Nice weather' said the brown cow
'Ah' said the white
'Grass is very tasty'
'Grass is all right'
Half the time they muched the grass and all the time they lay.
Down in the water-meadows in the lazy month of May.
& then we have a chart of sorts entitled "Tendencies in the Animal Groups"
Rodents:
Nerve Senses Predominant
Small Front Teeth (incisors)
Born "premature"
Big litters
Two colors (dark above, light below)
Carnivores:
Middle Sphere (Hearts & Lungs)
Middle Size
Middle teeth (canines)
Born Partly Mature
Middle Size Litters
Color: Spots & Stripes frequently
Ungulates:
Metabolic - Limbs predominant
Large
Back Teeth (molars)
Born 1 or 2 at a time
Solid color
And the culmination of the unit is a writing about the elephant's trunk.
"Wonderful is the elephant's trunk! It is a strong right arm, with which he
can haul down tree limbs and pick up a man. It is a hand of delicate
fingers, with which he can feel the texture of a wildflower and pluck a tiny
stem. It is a great, waving, moving nose, revealing the scent of human
friend or enemy hidden from view hundreds of yards away. A periscope when
he swims, a trumpet when he calls, a hose when he drinks, a shower head when
he bathes, the trunk is a unique animal marvel."
And that was our son's Man/Animal unit. Boggles the mind. Hope this helps
DW's mom. Jane
----- Original Message -----
From: "mysplum" (mysplum earthlink.net)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 10:11 AM
Subject: Re: Man and Animal
) on 11/5/02 2:35 PM, Peter Farrell at feetapparel hotmail.com wrote:
)
) ) This is a pretty tall order. Even if you collect details of what's
taught
) ) generally in Wladorf schools, you will also have to show that is what is
) ) taught specifically at your school, and indeed by your childs class
teacher.
) ) I can't see any way of doing this unless you have access to teaching
) ) materials from the last time that teacher went around.
)
) Sharon: DW's mom, you could send your son's lesson books from previous
years
) to Dan for review to see how much Anthro doctrine is in them?
)
) My family left Waldorf during fourth grade, so my daughter's Man and
Animal
) studies are more sparse than usual. Ever noticed how few pages in those
) lesson books are actually used by the end of the school year?! It's a good
) thing - I shudder when I read some of this stuff - can only imagine what
was
) said verbally and not copied into lesson books. I will quote from my
) daughter's lesson book on Man and Animal to give you a sense of what she
was
) being taught (lots of Anthro. content).
)
) First page, Sharon's daughter wrote: "Sun, moon and stars above me weave
) within the heavens blue may I on earth a pattern weave of words and deeds
as
) true.
)
) Head be clearer. Heart be truer. Fears be fewer. Freedom nearer."
)
) Second page: "Head Trunk and limbs
)
) The human being is like a little universe inside a big one. Sun, moon and
) stars find their likeness in mans head, trunk and limbs. Each part has its
) special work.
)
) Our heads are the quietest part of us. The eyes, ears, nose and mouth are
) our windows and doors. Our senses bring us messages from the outside
world.
) We understand these messages in our thoughts. Our limbs are our servants.
) Our legs carry us to where we want to go. Our hands can work good or evil
in
) the world. As humans we can choose. Between head and limbs is the trunk.
Our
) trunk is a combination of the roundness of our head and the straightness
of
) our limbs. There resides the rhythm of heart and lungs.
)
) What head plans and the heart feels is good and true, the hands can do".
)
) Sharon: Next page has a picture of a rock, a human with the Sun, an
animal,
) a plant and a plus sign or cross in the middle. Digest the above, and I'll
) continue tomorrow.
)
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 16:31:32 +0000
From: DW's Mom (qrejy hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Man and Animal
mysplum wrote:
) Sharon: DW's mom, you could send your son's lesson books from previous
) years
) to Dan for review to see how much Anthro doctrine is in them?
DW's Mom:
The problem is, DW's Dad loves the mystical stuff in the Anthro
doctrine. He wouldn't have any problem with being told that he should
rub golden light on his son, or whatever that odd prescription was that
you mentioned.
The only thing that will get him is the math and science that is taught
improperly. If I get a list of possible things my son might learn by
8th grade, I can ask the teacher about them and most likely at least a
few will be taught to my son. That is the only way this is going to
work.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 13:36:59 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters worldnet.att.net)
Subject: Re: Man and Animal
DW's Mom:
)The problem is, DW's Dad loves the mystical stuff in the Anthro
)doctrine. He wouldn't have any problem with being told that he should
)rub golden light on his son, or whatever that odd prescription was that
)you mentioned.
)The only thing that will get him is the math and science that is taught
)improperly. If I get a list of possible things my son might learn by
)8th grade, I can ask the teacher about them and most likely at least a
)few will be taught to my son. That is the only way this is going to
)work.
I don't hold out much hope then. It is about inculcating a world view, and
if your ex is sympathetic to the world view, why should he take his son out?
This is both far more difficult to pin down, and also far more important. A
few incorrect facts can be corrected, or a tutor can help or something. A
general anti-intellectual, anti-literacy, anti-scientific focus in school,
for years on end, can't be remedied by a little catch-up at home, unless you
have all afternoon and evening to undo what the kid has been doing all day
in school every day.
The schools claim on the one hand not to teach anthroposophy, and on the
other hand to have a superior pedagogy whereby nothing is taught directly,
everything is taught through "stories," "imagination," "pictures," through
the senses, song and dance. They are correct that this is a far more
effective method (which is why they do it). Also gives them great
deniability.
I looked for that old exchange with David Cann - he explained that his child
had come home talking about cuttlefish one night, and horses a couple nights
later. I noted that Harwood suggests a sequence of animals - meant to show
animals "grouped around man," and proceeding from head down through trunk
and legs, the supposed sequence by which the child incarnates - anyway
Harwood proceeded exactly from cuttlefish to horses. Not a predictable
sequence, exactly; pretty likely the teacher's lesson plan came from
Harwood, if not Steiner. But if your ex has got to see a list of facts about
cuttlefish that are incorrect, for instance, or he's not going to get this,
then . . . well, he's not going to get this. There may be no incorrect facts
about cuttlefish being taught. But "Man and Animal" in Waldorf is a
statement about the relationship between humans and animals that is based on
the anthroposophic view of "man" as a creature who is above animals in a
spiritual hierarchy, and clearly these lessons aim to impart that (whether
successfully or not, another question; probably it is often not successful,
because it's such incomprehensible nonsense).
The same thread had a discussion of why in the kindergartens and early
grades, Waldorf discourages "animal play." A textbook example of how
anthroposophy is imparted in Waldorf, how anthroposophy IS Waldorf. The
children do not copy into their notebooks, "Humans are superior to animals.
Humans must care for animals because animals have made a karmic sacrifice so
that humans can progress spiritually." But they are not allowed to play
animal (as most little kids want to do at some point) because they should be
encouraged to identify as humans; it is harmful to their development,
supposedly, to identify with the animals. This is as clear as it gets that
Waldorf aims to impart the anthroposophic worldview and aims to get away
with it by deliberately *not* making it explicit.
One more example: the teachers who try to tell the parents that the kids may
not take out "factual" books about animals from their public library while
he/she is teaching "Man and Animal." The facts the child might learn would
interfere with the spiritual lesson. The octopus, according to Harwood,
should be described as a "head animal":
"If we draw a man's head and imagine that, when we look at something, two
arms really come out of our eyes to take hold of it, and when we hear
something another two out of our ears, and when we smell something another
two out of our nostrils, and when we eat something - well our jaws are just
like two arms ready to take hold of our food; if we draw these eight arms
coming out of the head (they are there really, but we don't see them), then
we have - the octopus. So the octopus is like a head that can move about
without either body or legs." (Harwood, p. 112). Now a book your child finds
in the public library will probably explain what the octopus eats, where it
lives, how it reproduces and cares for its young, what other animals it is
related to, how it defends itself -- and your child may find this even more
interesting than the comparison to the human head, which is . . . well,
irrelevant, shall we say politely, in terms of learning about this animal.
Hey, maybe that one will work, DW's mom - does your ex want his son to learn
that really humans have eight arms coming out of our heads - "they are there
really, but we don't see them" ??
But the usual story is that the parent sees a very nicely done drawing of an
octopus, some quaint but slightly odd verse about the human head that
they're not really sure why this is there, but merely assumes that there
must have been some actual content about octopuses in the lesson plan, or in
a book the class read or something . . . ???
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 11:14:58 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Man and Animal
Diana, you wrote,
)The octopus, according to Harwood,
)should be described as a "head animal":
is that from "The Way of a Child" by A.C. Harwood?
-Dan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 15:31:40 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters worldnet.att.net)
Subject: Re: Man and Animal
)Diana, you wrote,
)
))The octopus, according to Harwood,
))should be described as a "head animal":
)is that from "The Way of a Child" by A.C. Harwood?
No - the passage I quoted is from Recovery of Man in Childhood. Sorry - he
doesn't use the term "head animal" - at least not here, I was remembering
that from someplace else, and I shouldn't have put that phrase in quotes. I
think this scheme is the same though - he explains that the teacher should
"talk. . . with the children about animals . . . in such a way as to form an
imaginative picture in which the animals are seen in relation to man. We can
begin with the human head." After going through the shellfish, which you
may recall is "trying to be round" in order to be like the human head (!),
the next part of the human body we are supposed to find animals that
resemble or are somehow trying to be like, is the trunk - and then the legs.
I am fairly sure, though I can't confirm it from quickly perusing these
couple of pages, that the reason behind presenting the animals in this order
is that Steiner said this is the order in which the child "grows down" into
his body - head first, then trunk and legs.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 17:40:36 -0500
From: "Nicole Foss" (nmfoss hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Toronto Waldorf School and government standards
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C285BB.9D50EC20
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Nicole: I agree completely with your point about Waldorf insularity
and lack of accountability. I also think in principle that testing
10th graders for literacy is perfectly reasonable. I am, however, no
fan of our standardized curriculum or of the type of testing that
generally goes with it. Government tests often seem to be unable to
measure what is important, so they make important what they can
measure. Public school teachers don't like it either, only they have
no choice.
----- Original Message -----
From: Diana Winters
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 8:47 AM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Re: Toronto Waldorf School and government standards
Nicole:
)I don't have a problem with Waldorf (or any other school) objecting
to standardized testing of young )children (it starts at age 7 in
Ontario).
I don't either - I wasn't responding to the issue of standardized
testing, rather to Waldorf's insularity, their belief that nobody
should ever ask them to explain themselves, that they should walk
their "different road" with everyone else waving and cheering and
never asking them where the heck these kids are going to end up on
this road.
I don't favor standardized testing for 7 year olds, but 10th graders
are quite another matter.
The great English and drama program at your Waldorf school
(Shakespeare production etc.) is great to hear about. I know that
some good teachers with talents like these are attracted to Waldorf
and I'm sure they're doing great things.
We shouldn't assume the public schools can't do this, however. We
took our son out of the public school here last year, because of a
lot of concerns about the overall environment. However, their music
and drama were absolutely fabulous - I also saw some really stunning
performances, and these kids also sounded a lot better than some
professional groups, and we're talking about some kids from very
deprived inner city neighborhoods, not all privileged suburban kids.
Diana
REE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 01:52:43 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Toronto Waldorf School and government standards
I think testing is fine. I also think it is possible to test earlier grades
without giving the children the idea that they can fail or that they are
worth less. Let's get this right. What is being tested is the school and the
teacher.
Equally we should be able to see a bunch of other stuff for almost any
school or set of schools to understand the consequences of that choice. In
particular I think tertiary education acceptance (do the kids get accepted
into good universities at appropriate rates) and outcome of tertiary
education (what's the drop out rate etc) are important measures that ought
to be readily available from independent sources. Again this is not a test
of any child but a test of the school. Is this data available in the US? How
about Europe? I don't think it's easily available in Australia, but I'll
check it out.
See you, Peter
)From: Nicole Foss (nmfoss hotmail.com)
)Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)Subject: Re: Toronto Waldorf School and government standards
)Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 17:40:36 -0500
)
)Nicole: I agree completely with your point about Waldorf insularity and
)lack of accountability. I also think in principle that testing 10th graders
)for literacy is perfectly reasonable. I am, however, no fan of our
)standardized curriculum or of the type of testing that generally goes with
)it. Government tests often seem to be unable to measure what is important,
)so they make important what they can measure. Public school teachers don't
)like it either, only they have no choice.
)
)----- Original Message -----
)From: Diana Winters
)Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 8:47 AM
)To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)Subject: Re: Toronto Waldorf School and government standards
)
)
)Nicole:
)
) )I don't have a problem with Waldorf (or any other school) objecting to
)standardized testing of young )children (it starts at age 7 in Ontario).
)
)I don't either - I wasn't responding to the issue of standardized testing,
)rather to Waldorf's insularity, their belief that nobody should ever ask
)them to explain themselves, that they should walk their "different road"
)with everyone else waving and cheering and never asking them where the heck
)these kids are going to end up on this road.
)
)I don't favor standardized testing for 7 year olds, but 10th graders are
)quite another matter.
)
)
)The great English and drama program at your Waldorf school (Shakespeare
)production etc.) is great to hear about. I know that some good teachers
)with talents like these are attracted to Waldorf and I'm sure they're doing
)great things.
)
)We shouldn't assume the public schools can't do this, however. We took our
)son out of the public school here last year, because of a lot of concerns
)about the overall environment. However, their music and drama were
)absolutely fabulous - I also saw some really stunning performances, and
)these kids also sounded a lot better than some professional groups, and
)we're talking about some kids from very deprived inner city neighborhoods,
)not all privileged suburban kids.
)Diana
)REE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
)
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 22:31:17 -0500
From: "Nicole Foss" (nmfoss hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Toronto Waldorf School and government standards
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C285E4.3937EF80
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Nicole: In Ontario, standardized testing at various ages is just
being introduced (ages 7, 11 and 14 I think), with a view to
compiling league tables for schools. Such tables do not, however,
impart any information relating to how a school influences its intake
of students ( ie value added) and are thus seriously flawed. Student
intake is the single most important determinant of a school's rank by
far, so that a wonderful school in an inner-city area will typically
rank much lower than a suburban school even if the latter contributes
very little to the improvement of its student population.
In England, testing and league tables were introduced much earlier
and have led to a serious polarization of the education system.
Schools which perform badly are often heavily penalized. Funding
follows the child, so as some families move their children to a
'better' school, the original school is left to cope with fewer
resources. In addition, it may be subject to 'special measures' (ie a
strict regime of time-consuming inspections, naming-and-shaming,
take-over by the department of education, etc) which seem almost
designed to foster a climate of failure and blame. 'Good' schools get
better as funding flows their way withextra students, while
struggling schools, whose only crime may have been to be situated in
a poorer neighbourhood, are left to flounder. The result is a
positive feedback loop where richer schools get richer while poorer
ones get poorer. A government which cared about a decent education
for all its children would support schools with difficulties instead
o!
f punishing them.
In addition, England brought in performance related pay, so that
teachers' salaries could be tied, at least partially, to the results
their classes obtained. At least in some areas where good results are
very difficult to come by, the effect has, again, been perverse -
teaching to the test, telling children answers during the test,
expelling students who might pull the results down etc. In short,
what all too frequently happens is the opposite of education. It
concerns me greatly that my new country is following in the footsteps
of the one I left.
My son had to be tested at the age of 7 in his English state school
and he failed the English test because he couldn't spell all three
and four letter words correctly. Personally, I find this obscene. I
much prefer to see children develop at their own pace with no
particular pressure until at least the age of ten, with no need for
an overly prescriptive curriculum and plenty of professional freedom
for teachers. Teachers perform best when they have the freedom to be
creative in their presentation of material without someone constantly
looking over their shoulders and trying to measure their
'productivity' in a one-dimensional way. Accountability is important,
but there is presently too great a tendency to over-simplify and
thereby produce statistics devoid of meaning. Such statistics cannot
contribute to informed choice.
To the best of my knowledge, the statistics on the outcome of
tertiary education are not available in Canada or in England. At
least some English universities compile a list of the origins of
their intake, although the data may be recorded only as state school
versus private school. I don't think such information is made
generally available by the government.
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Farrell
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 8:52 PM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Re: Toronto Waldorf School and government standards
I think testing is fine. I also think it is possible to test earlier grades
without giving the children the idea that they can fail or that they are
worth less. Let's get this right. What is being tested is the school and the
teacher.
Equally we should be able to see a bunch of other stuff for almost any
school or set of schools to understand the consequences of that choice. In
particular I think tertiary education acceptance (do the kids get accepted
into good universities at appropriate rates) and outcome of tertiary
education (what's the drop out rate etc) are important measures that ought
to be readily available from independent sources. Again this is not a test
of any child but a test of the school. Is this data available in the US? How
about Europe? I don't think it's easily available in Australia, but I'll
check it out.
See you, Peter
)From: Nicole Foss (nmfoss hotmail.com)
)Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)Subject: Re: Toronto Waldorf School and government standards
)Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 17:40:36 -0500
)
)Nicole: I agree completely with your point about Waldorf insularity and
)lack of accountability. I also think in principle that testing 10th graders
)for literacy is perfectly reasonable. I am, however, no fan of our
)standardized curriculum or of the type of testing that generally goes with
)it. Government tests often seem to be unable to measure what is important,
)so they make important what they can measure. Public school teachers don't
)like it either, only they have no choice.
)
)----- Original Message -----
)From: Diana Winters
)Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 8:47 AM
)To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)Subject: Re: Toronto Waldorf School and government standards
)
)
)Nicole:
)
) )I don't have a problem with Waldorf (or any other school) objecting to
)standardized testing of young )children (it starts at age 7 in Ontario).
)
)I don't either - I wasn't responding to the issue of standardized testing,
)rather to Waldorf's insularity, their belief that nobody should ever ask
)them to explain themselves, that they should walk their "different road"
)with everyone else waving and cheering and never asking them where the heck
)these kids are going to end up on this road.
)
)I don't favor standardized testing for 7 year olds, but 10th graders are
)quite another matter.
)
)
)The great English and drama program at your Waldorf school (Shakespeare
)production etc.) is great to hear about. I know that some good teachers
)with talents like these are attracted to Waldorf and I'm sure they're doing
)great things.
)
)We shouldn't assume the public schools can't do this, however. We took our
)son out of the public school here last year, because of a lot of concerns
)about the overall environment. However, their music and drama were
)absolutely fabulous - I also saw some really stunning performances, and
)these kids also sounded a lot better than some professional groups, and
)we're talking about some kids from very deprived inner city neighborhoods,
)not all privileged suburban kids.
)Diana
)REE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
)
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 07:24:37 +0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (feetapparel hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Toronto Waldorf School and government standards
G'day Nicole,
This kind of testing been going in Australia for a little while and there
has been some debate about many of the issues you raise. Some information is
available at http://www.dest.gov.au/schools/Literacy&Numeracy/benchmarks.htm
but not broken down to the level where it is immediately interesting to this
list.
I agree that very many foolish things can be done with information and often
governements do do foolish things. However I think it is better to have the
information and then argue for good things to be done than to argue in the
absence of information.
See you, Peter
)From: Nicole Foss (nmfoss hotmail.com)
)Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)Subject: Re: Toronto Waldorf School and government standards
)Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 22:31:17 -0500
)
)Nicole: In Ontario, standardized testing at various ages is just being
)introduced (ages 7, 11 and 14 I think), with a view to compiling league
)tables for schools. Such tables do not, however, impart any information
)relating to how a school influences its intake of students ( ie value
)added) and are thus seriously flawed. Student intake is the single most
)important determinant of a school's rank by far, so that a wonderful school
)in an inner-city area will typically rank much lower than a suburban school
)even if the latter contributes very little to the improvement of its
)student population.
)
)In England, testing and league tables were introduced much earlier and have
)led to a serious polarization of the education system. Schools which
)perform badly are often heavily penalized. Funding follows the child, so as
)some families move their children to a 'better' school, the original school
)is left to cope with fewer resources. In addition, it may be subject to
)'special measures' (ie a strict regime of time-consuming inspections,
)naming-and-shaming, take-over by the department of education, etc) which
)seem almost designed to foster a climate of failure and blame. 'Good'
)schools get better as funding flows their way with extra students, while
)struggling schools, whose only crime may have been to be situated in a
)poorer neighbourhood, are left to flounder. The result is a positive
)feedback loop where richer schools get richer while poorer ones get poorer.
)A government which cared about a decent education for all its children
)would support schools with difficulties instead of punishing them.
)
)In addition, England brought in performance related pay, so that teachers'
)salaries could be tied, at least partially, to the results their classes
)obtained. At least in some areas where good results are very difficult to
)come by, the effect has, again, been perverse - teaching to the test,
)telling children answers during the test, expelling students who might pull
)the results down etc. In short, what all too frequently happens is the
)opposite of education. It concerns me greatly that my new country is
)following in the footsteps of the one I left.
)
)My son had to be tested at the age of 7 in his English state school and he
)failed the English test because he couldn't spell all three and four letter
)words correctly. Personally, I find this obscene. I much prefer to see
)children develop at their own pace with no particular pressure until at
)least the age of ten, with no need for an overly prescriptive curriculum
)and plenty of professional freedom for teachers. Teachers perform best when
)they have the freedom to be creative in their presentation of material
)without someone constantly looking over their shoulders and trying to
)measure their 'productivity' in a one-dimensional way. Accountability is
)important, but there is presently too great a tendency to over-simplify and
)thereby produce statistics devoid of meaning. Such statistics cannot
)contribute to informed choice.
)
)To the best of my knowledge, the statistics on the outcome of tertiary
)education are not available in Canada or in England. At least some English
)universities compile a list of the origins of their intake, although the
)data may be recorded only as state school versus private school. I don't
)think such information is made generally available by the government.
)
)----- Original Message -----
)From: Peter Farrell
)Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 8:52 PM
)To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)Subject: Re: Toronto Waldorf School and government standards
)
)I think testing is fine. I also think it is possible to test earlier grades
)without giving the children the idea that they can fail or that they are
)worth less. Let's get this right. What is being tested is the school and
)the
)teacher.
)Equally we should be able to see a bunch of other stuff for almost any
)school or set of schools to understand the consequences of that choice. In
)particular I think tertiary education acceptance (do the kids get accepted
)into good universities at appropriate rates) and outcome of tertiary
)education (what's the drop out rate etc) are important measures that ought
)to be readily available from independent sources. Again this is not a test
)of any child but a test of the school. Is this data available in the US?
)How
)about Europe? I don't think it's easily available in Australia, but I'll
)check it out.
)See you, Peter
)
)
)
)
)
)
) )From: Nicole Foss (nmfoss hotmail.com)
) )Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) )To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) )Subject: Re: Toronto Waldorf School and government standards
) )Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 17:40:36 -0500
) )
) )Nicole: I agree completely with your point about Waldorf insularity and
) )lack of accountability. I also think in principle that testing 10th
)graders
) )for literacy is perfectly reasonable. I am, however, no fan of our
) )standardized curriculum or of the type of testing that generally goes
)with
) )it. Government tests often seem to be unable to measure what is
)important,
) )so they make important what they can measure. Public school teachers
)don't
) )like it either, only they have no choice.
) )
) )----- Original Message -----
) )From: Diana Winters
) )Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 8:47 AM
) )To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) )Subject: Re: Toronto Waldorf School and government standards
) )
) )
) )Nicole:
) )
) ) )I don't have a problem with Waldorf (or any other school) objecting to
) )standardized testing of young )children (it starts at age 7 in Ontario).
) )
) )I don't either - I wasn't responding to the issue of standardized
)testing,
) )rather to Waldorf's insularity, their belief that nobody should ever ask
) )them to explain themselves, that they should walk their "different road"
) )with everyone else waving and cheering and never asking them where the
)heck
) )these kids are going to end up on this road.
) )
) )I don't favor standardized testing for 7 year olds, but 10th graders are
) )quite another matter.
) )
) )
) )The great English and drama program at your Waldorf school (Shakespeare
) )production etc.) is great to hear about. I know that some good teachers
) )with talents like these are attracted to Waldorf and I'm sure they're
)doing
) )great things.
) )
) )We shouldn't assume the public schools can't do this, however. We took
)our
) )son out of the public school here last year, because of a lot of concerns
) )about the overall environment. However, their music and drama were
) )absolutely fabulous - I also saw some really stunning performances, and
) )these kids also sounded a lot better than some professional groups, and
) )we're talking about some kids from very deprived inner city
)neighborhoods,
) )not all privileged suburban kids.
) )Diana
) )REE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
) )
)
)
)_________________________________________________________________
)MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
)http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
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) FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
)
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------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 868
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Man and Animal
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: Man and Animal
By Diana.Winters worldnet.att.net
Re: group souls attn. Klaudia
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: Man and Animal
By mysplum earthlink.net
(Hu)man and Animal, Waldorf style
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: Man and Animal
By mysplum earthlink.net
re: Man and Animal
By momof2gals mindspring.com
more anti-intellectualism in Waldorf
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: Man and Animal
By Diana.Winters worldnet.att.net
RE: group souls attn. Klaud) ia
By klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com
Re: group souls attn. Klaudia
By dan dandugan.com
RE: group souls attn. Klaudia
By klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com
Earthquakes
By klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com
Re: Earthquakes
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 07:45:19 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Man and Animal
on 11/6/02 10:36 AM, Diana Winters at Diana.Winters worldnet.att.net wrote:
) But the usual story is that the parent sees a very nicely done drawing of an
) octopus, some quaint but slightly odd verse about the human head that
) they're not really sure why this is there, but merely assumes that there
) must have been some actual content about octopuses in the lesson plan, or in
) a book the class read or something . . . ???
Sharon: Since you mentioned octopuses, here's my daughter's Man and Animal
octopus lesson:
"The octopus is staring, watching, waiting, floating. Silently he gazes into
the stillness. Reaching out to sense his world, he recognizes a threat and
hides within his shadowy cloud. The octopus is cold, mysterious and
separate."
Sharon: LOL!
Since Steiner taught that "feelings" are true, I feel at liberty here to
make the following link (G)...Next comes the lessons influenced by Steiner's
apocalyptic seal which depicts a bull, eagle, lion and man. He picked those
animals up from Revelation and Ezekiel. Revelations IV vs 7 says, "And first
the beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third
beast had the face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle".
Ezekiel I vs 10 says, "As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the
face of a man; and the face of a lion on the right side: and they four had
the face of an ox on the left side: they four also had the face of an
eagle". In magic, these beasts are traditionally associated with the
elements. Man corresponds to air, lion to fire, the eagle to water and ox to
earth. I wouldn't have picked up on this had I not read several magic books
and noted the occult infatuation with these "archetypal" animals which are
often used as magic models. Anyway, 'twas the teacher getting her spiritual
jollies, my daughter's lessons were far more subtle, illustrated with
pictures of a lion, eagle, bull...
My 4th grader quotes Alfred Lord Tennyson: "The Eagle He clasps the crag
with hooked hands, close to the sun in lonely lands, ringed with the azure
world; he stands.
The wrinkled sea beneath him crawls, he watches from his mountain walls, and
like a thunderbolt he falls".
The next poem in my child's lesson book: "The Animals in Me The eagle sees
things from great height; a lions heart is strong; a deer is fleet in
flight, wisdom, courage and good will in me belong".
Her poem about the bull is missing, but she drew a picture of one.
Then: "The deer is a mammal and a ruminant. It is nimble, light on its toes
and alert. It can jump a 5 foot fence from a stand still and leap across a
25 foot stream."
And, "The Four Kingdoms" which appears to be in her own words. Writing from
what she had been taught...
The first kingdom on our earth is the minerals. Minerals have no fealings
but that doesn't mean they can't grow. For example christals can grow and so
can stalagmights and stacktights, over the drip of century's these glorious
iceicles form into something almost as hard as rock.
You see the mineral kingdom quite often in the tiles in your bathrooms or
evan cement and gravle, you not only see minerals you smell them and drink
them as well (example) you drink water wich is a mineral and all kinds of
metals are minerals, also the gas you put in your car is a mineral from way
deep down in the earth, of course people add a couple of things to it
themselves. Plastic is one of the most commonly used minerals probably in
the whole world. The plant kingdom is the second of the four kingdoms. One
of the many differences from the plants and rocks is that plants can grow
and have life, plants grow from a seed well rocks form over century's, it
doesn't take a century for a plant to grow thats for sure. Anything that has
life must one day die, plants die just like human's and animals do, when a
plant dies it gos into the earth and slowly detereirates becoming dirt
itself. Rocks have no life to start with so they never die, that doesn't
mean they don't crack, crumble and disintegrate. One of humans main foods
are plants you probably have asked "doesn't it hurt the plant?"
Scientifically no, but to you and me its quite possible. The third kingdom
is the animals, the animals have something that plants and minerals don't
have, mobility, they have the power to moove from one place to another to
search for mates, food, water etc. Plants can moove in the wind."
Sharon: And that is that.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 08:14:49 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters worldnet.att.net)
Subject: Re: Man and Animal
)Sharon: Since you mentioned octopuses, here's my daughter's Man and Animal
)octopus lesson:
)"The octopus is staring, watching, waiting, floating. Silently he gazes
into
)the stillness. Reaching out to sense his world, he recognizes a threat and
)hides within his shadowy cloud. The octopus is cold, mysterious and
)separate."
I think this "separateness" is part of the point of the "head animals"
topic. Harwood: "The head also does not like to move very much; if we wag
him about for long he gets dizzy. He likes the world to come to him rather
than for him to go to the world. In fact he can be very lazy unless we make
him work. Are there any animals which are hard outside like the head, and
even try to be round like him? Yes, the shell-fish that lie under the sea
all day. They are lazy too. And they open their shells to let the sea wash
in their food just as we let the light was in our eyes, and sound at our
ears and air at our nostrils. . ." etc. (Recovery of Man in Childhood, New
York: Myrin Institute, 1958, :p. 111).
This negative image of the head is part of Steiner's anti-intellectual
thing - the head by itself is isolationist, not capable of much.
)Next comes the lessons influenced by Steiner's apocalyptic seal which
depicts a bull, eagle, lion and man.
Also prescribed by Harwood, after the class has gone through the head, trunk
and limb animals. "We can remember the age-old tradition of the sphinx,
which united the hind-quarters of a bull with the forelegs and chest of a
lion, the hind-quarters of a bull with the forelegs and chest of a lion, was
clothed with the wings of an eagle, and bore the head of a man. All the
creatures again united in man!" (p. 113)
)In magic, these beasts are traditionally associated with the
)elements. Man corresponds to air, lion to fire, the eagle to water and ox
to
)earth. I wouldn't have picked up on this had I not read several magic books
)and noted the occult infatuation with these "archetypal" animals which are
)often used as magic models. Anyway, 'twas the teacher getting her spiritual
)jollies, my daughter's lessons were far more subtle, illustrated with
)pictures of a lion, eagle, bull...
Gotta say, for once I don't find this at all subtle - this "four kingdom"
stuff, corresponding to the four magical elements (and likewise the four
temperaments, and the four "members" of the human posited by Steiner) is the
clearest possible demonstration of anthroposophy in the curriculum. There's
no other school teaching earth, air, fire and water as the basis of a
*science* curriculum now. Ask anyone involved in modern paganism,
witchcraft, etc., about the four elements - that's the stuff. Every ritual
starts with this and is based on invoking and calling down the powers of the
four directions or kingdoms.
)And, "The Four Kingdoms" which appears to be in her own words. Writing from
)what she had been taught...
) The first kingdom on our earth is the minerals. Minerals have no fealings
In other words, they have a physical body, but no etheric or astral body or
"I." (You need an astral body to have feelings.) Here is Steiner's
developmental theory being taught to the children in pictures and poems,
masquerading as an earth science lesson.
) The plant kingdom is the second of the four kingdoms. One
)of the many differences from the plants and rocks is that plants can grow
)and have life,
In other words they have ether bodies as well as physical bodies, in common
with humans and animals. Without an ether body you can't grow, it's a life
force.
)The third kingdom is the animals, the animals have something that plants
and minerals don't
)have, mobility, they have the power to moove from one place to another to
)search for mates, food, water etc.
And they have astral bodies. Instead of just a "life force" (ether body),
they have some self-direction, which requires an astral body. The sequence
moves up to humans, aims to show the four kingdoms and all their qualities
and capabilities united in humans. There may have been no "incorrect"
scientific information presented to the children - yes, animals move around
in search of food and rocks don't! - but this is a "science" lesson that
would have been recognizable to medieval philosophers, not a science lesson
for 3rd or 4th graders that any other teacher today could relate to.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 09:00:46 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: group souls attn. Klaudia
Sharon: Like Diana, I'm also still laughing about Klaudia's explanation of a
naughty Alaskan wolf causing illness for a wolf in northern Norway. I shall
never read about animal group souls again without thinking of that! Here's a
funny little tidbit from Vreede who says we could see these group souls if
we were clairvoyant, I quoted a little extra so you have it in context (G):
Vreede: "The stars become for us colonies of spiritual beings. Rudolf
Steiner also pointed out that the earth, if it were observed clairvoyantly
"from outside", could also be seen as such a colony. Group souls of the
plants and of the animals, the individual souls of human beings, the folk
souls, and so on, would make up its population. The physical in this way
would come but little into consideration. Thus each star also shows us the
direction in which a colony, although far more sublime beings, is to be
found.
We must take very seriously the term "direction" as indicating the gathering
place of spiritual beings. We will not meet the spiritual beings themselves
in the star we see shining in the heavens. They are no longer directly
united with the star itself. In fact, the star, in a certain sense, is only
there, is only visible for us because it is no longer the body or the
dwelling place of a spiritual colony. There we meet anew with the mystery of
divine evolution, the development of spiritual beings, which leads them
upward in the course of time from stage to stage. We see how a planet can
become a fixed star, and progress further from a fixed-star existence to a
zodiacal one. The fixed star, however, also goes through changes when the
beings united with it take further steps forward in their development. And
so it happened at one time during the period of earthly evolution that the
spiritual beings no longer needed to make use of their star bodies and left
them, just as a human being leaves the physical body at death. Rudolf
Steiner often said that stars are forsaken bodies of the gods". (263
Elizabeth Vreede. Anthroposophy and Astrology, the Astronomical Letters of
Elizabeth Vreede. Anthroposophic Press. 2001).
Sharon: Klaudia wrote - "All species of plants have one "I", so all trees,
daisies and all living carrots have same common "I"". I'm still not sure if
that is the Anthroposophical truth...here's Steiner who makes it clear that
each *species* of plant has a separate group-soul that lives as a real
being:
Steiner: "The form of activity which at that time actually existed in the
physical mode can only be found today by directing a faculty of clairvoyant
perception towards that region of the supersensible world where are the
spiritual Beings who lie behind our external physical plants, those Beings
whom we have learnt to know as the group-souls of the plants. Today they can
only be found by clairvoyant consciousness in spiritual realms. The
group-souls of the plants do not subsist in individual plants, such as we
see growing out of the soil, but there is one group-soul for each species of
plant, such as the rose, the violet, the oak, and so on. For the
poverty-stricken, abstract thinking of today, plant species are just
abstractions, notions. They were already so in the Middle Ages; and it was
because at that time men no longer knew anything of what weaves and
activates in the spiritual as the basis of the physical, that there arose
the well-known conflict between realism and nominalism - the dispute as to
whether species were merely names, or whether they were real spiritual
entities. For clairvoyant consciousness there is no sense whatever in this
dispute, for when it directs its attention toward the plant-covering of our
earth, it pierces through the outer forms to the spirit region where the
group-souls of plants actually live as real beings. And these group-souls
are one and the same reality as what we call species" (36-7 Steiner, Rudolf.
Genesis, Secrets of the Bible Story of Creation. 1910. Anthroposophical
Publishing Company, London 1959).
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 09:20:52 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Man and Animal
on 11/7/02 5:14 AM, Diana Winters at Diana.Winters worldnet.att.net wrote:
) I think this "separateness" is part of the point of the "head animals"
) topic. Harwood: "The head also does not like to move very much; if we wag
) him about for long he gets dizzy. He likes the world to come to him rather
) than for him to go to the world. In fact he can be very lazy unless we make
) him work. Are there any animals which are hard outside like the head, and
) even try to be round like him? Yes, the shell-fish that lie under the sea
) all day. They are lazy too. And they open their shells to let the sea wash
) in their food just as we let the light was in our eyes, and sound at our
) ears and air at our nostrils. . ." etc. (Recovery of Man in Childhood, New
) York: Myrin Institute, 1958, :p. 111).
)
) This negative image of the head is part of Steiner's anti-intellectual
) thing - the head by itself is isolationist, not capable of much.
Sharon re-posts her daughter's lesson on humans: "The human being is like a
little universe inside a big one. Sun, moon and stars find their likeness in
mans head, trunk and limbs. Each part has its special work.
Our heads are the quietest part of us. The eyes, ears, nose and mouth are
our windows and doors. Our senses bring us messages from the outside world.
We understand these messages in our thoughts".
)
)
)) Next comes the lessons influenced by Steiner's apocalyptic seal which
) depicts a bull, eagle, lion and man.
)
) Also prescribed by Harwood, after the class has gone through the head, trunk
) and limb animals. "We can remember the age-old tradition of the sphinx,
) which united the hind-quarters of a bull with the forelegs and chest of a
) lion, the hind-quarters of a bull with the forelegs and chest of a lion, was
) clothed with the wings of an eagle, and bore the head of a man. All the
) creatures again united in man!" (p. 113)
Sharon: Thank-you *VERY* much Diana. (G)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 09:30:54 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: (Hu)man and Animal, Waldorf style
Sharon quotes from her daughter (a former Waldorf student)'s mainlesson book
from the Man and Animals block:
((Our heads are the quietest part of us.))
Lisa (unable to resist): Yes, this certainly is true when the person is a
Waldorf student. Inactivity of the cerebrum and cerebellum are the natural
result of the Waldorf curriculum, which aims to stimulate the "heart and
hands" and bypass the brain (head.)
Translation: Waldorf schools are, especially in the early grades,
deliberately anit-intellectual. There should be a sign posted at the
entrance to all Waldorf elementary schools that reads: "Abandon thought, all
who enter here."
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 09:48:08 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Man and Animal
on 11/7/02 5:14 AM, Diana Winters at Diana.Winters worldnet.att.net wrote:
but this is a "science" lesson that
) would have been recognizable to medieval philosophers, not a science lesson
) for 3rd or 4th graders that any other teacher today could relate to.
Sharon: You didn't happen to catch the re-run BBC program the other night on
the iron age? Basically, a group of present day humans were dropped off in
the iron age and had to exist as if they were in Europe around 1000 BCE or
so. I was of course singing "deja vu" to myself as I felt I was watching a
program about Waldorfers in Dornach II. Even my husband who watched for a
few minutes remarked (unprompted by me) that it was just like Waldorf times.
A young "druid" had come a long and was making people "spiritualize" their
iron age existence by connecting with stones, having sweat lodges etc, etc.
I had to laugh because there was a skeptic amongst them who was finding him
extremely annoying. (G) As I always say, Waldorf is from another time, long
before medieval times.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 09:41:37 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: re: Man and Animal
Diana Winters wrote:
) But the usual story is that the parent sees a very nicely done drawing of an
) octopus, some quaint but slightly odd verse about the human head that
) they're not really sure why this is there, but merely assumes that there
) must have been some actual content about octopuses in the lesson plan, or in
) a book the class read or something . . . ???
Lisa: Yes, I am sure that is the case for most parents. Most parents no
doubt look at the "Man and Animal" unit/block and buy that it is, indeed,
"zoology," or at least a basic version of it.
I am grateful that by the time my older daughter brought home some
material from Man and Animal that I was already having serious, serious
doubts and questions about Waldorf in general and, in particular, whether
Waldorf was the right place for my daughter and my family. (I not only had
been trying to read Steiner and finding it almost incomprehensible, but had
also been spending time online on this list as a Waldorf advocate and was
taking a beating, intellectually, over my own viewpoints, which seemed
increasingly indefensible!)
When I saw the description of "head animals" and octopi, it just struck
me as completely odd and weird. Added to that was, on the same day, an
assignment in which Olivia was instructed to draw a human hand "without
using any lines." When I inquired as to how in the heck a person could draw
*anything* without using *any* lines -- and furthermore, why one would want
to! -- Olivia burst into tears and said "I don't know! But she said we have
to do it!"
My sister, who teaches third grade at a very good public school here,
interjected that the whole assignment made no sense and she did not see how
Olivia could do it. I responded that not only was the purpose of the
assignment incomprehensible, but it also was stupid. I told Olivia she was
forbidden from completing the drawing assignment, and that I would contact
the teacher about it (and the weird so-called "zoology.")
(For the record, as I recall, the teacher did not respond to my note,
but she also did not punish or shame Olivia for not doing the work. I am
guessing my note was sufficiently firm that she knew I would not take kindly
to her pushing me on this!)
In the end, this particular day was just one more nail in the coffin of
our relationship with Waldorf.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 09:51:14 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: more anti-intellectualism in Waldorf
All of this discussion of the Man and Animal block in Waldorf reminded me of
another interesting thing that happened during my kids' time at our former
school.
My older girl was in the first few months of third grade when she came home
to tell me that during library time (I cannot recall how often the class
went to the library -- which was extremely poorly equipped and stocked at
the time -- but they *did* go!) she tried to check out a book about animals
and was told that her class "was not allowed" to read those particular
books.
The title and specific content of the book in question escapes me after all
this time, but I remember it *was* a non-fiction book about wildlife. My
daughter told me that this book, and others like it, had colored "dots"
(stickers) on the spine.
I sent a note in to school and got a response, which explained that third
graders were not allowed to read non-fiction/true books about animals and
that the stickers let the librarian know that these books were off limits to
children in that grade. The note said that if the children learned real
information about animals, it would "interfere" with their ability to "live
into" the fables/fairy tales/folkloric stories that comprise many of the
third grade blocks. (As I recall, in third grade, the Waldorf kids hear
stories about snakes and bears and rabbits, etc.)
The teacher's note finished up by asking us to please NOT allow our children
to read or to check out from the library any non-fiction or "true" books or
magazines about animals.
To my credit (looking back!) I remember thinking how strange this was. It
felt wrong at a gut level to not only discourage, but also to actually
prohibit a child from seeking information she wanted!
I remember saying to my husband "This is weird. It doesn't seem right. If
Olivia wants to learn about bears, she should be able to."
Nevertheless (and I am ashamed to admit this!), I was so indoctrinated at
the time and so wanted to believe that the Waldorf way was right that I
actually supported the school in this ridiculous and anti-intellectual
policy!
Once again, a perfect example of how a parent going against her gut feelings
ends up supporting a Waldorf policy that makes little to no sense at the
expense of her own child's learning.
I look back in utter bewilderment as to how I, someone who loved learning
and spends most of my free time reading everything I can get my hands on,
bought into this anti-intellectual approach! I guess, bottom line, I had so
much invested in thinking that Waldorf was *the* way to educated children
without sacrificing their creativity that I was willing to go along even
with things that made no sense to me.
Lisa
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 11:51:20 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters worldnet.att.net)
Subject: Re: Man and Animal
Sharon's daughter's work:
)Our heads are the quietest part of us. The eyes, ears, nose and mouth are
)our windows and doors. Our senses bring us messages from the outside world.
)We understand these messages in our thoughts".
It makes the head very passive - a big sense organ receiving and reflecting
impressions from somewhere else, instead of a generator or creator of
anything.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 20:00:50 +0000
From: Klaudia (klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: group souls attn. Klaud) ia
mysplum wrote:
Sharon: Klaudia wrote - "All species of plants have one "I", so all
trees,
daisies and all living carrots have same common "I"". I'm still not sure
if
that is the Anthroposophical truth...here's Steiner who makes it clear
that
each *species* of plant has a separate group-soul that lives as a real
being:
Klaudia:
It really looks that Doctor Steiner told so on the year 1910 that each
specy has own group-soul. Still I'm quite sure, that on some other
lecture he told that all plants have one common "I". I try to find that
book, but that can take long time because I don't remember the name of
that masterpiece. I suppose that on same book he told about earthquakes
and that he could see them in advance. For clearvoyant it is not allowed
to tell other people about where and when earthquakes are coming. There
he also explained that braking of stones is spiritually very good. Does
anyone remember, which book I mean? Also Mefistotheles and different
geological layers of earth are explained there on anthro-way.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 10:32:34 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: group souls attn. Klaudia
)Sharon: Klaudia wrote - "All species of plants have one "I", so all trees,
)daisies and all living carrots have same common "I"". I'm still not sure if
)that is the Anthroposophical truth...here's Steiner who makes it clear that
)each *species* of plant has a separate group-soul that lives as a real
)being:
As I understand it, the "I" is only developed by Man and higher
beings (angels, etc.) I think the group-soul of a plant species would
only be etheric, since that's the highest body they have. Can anyone
help with this?
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 20:44:18 +0000
From: Klaudia (klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: group souls attn. Klaudia
Dan Dugan wrote:
) As I understand it, the "I" is only developed by Man and higher
) beings (angels, etc.) I think the group-soul of a plant species would
) only be etheric, since that's the highest body they have. Can anyone
) help with this?
Klaudia:
I have understood this way: each plant (means each carrot etc.) has
physical and etheric body.
Maybe "group-soul" and "I" are not synonymes. Maybe each specy has a
group-soul and all species have one common "I". If it is this way,
Sharon's quotes and my quotes are both valid and they are not in
contradiction. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe right. Maybe those group-souls or
"I"s are essentially plants at all, but they are spiritual beings, which
are supervisors or directors of plants.
My friend is a supervisor at building projects. He told that some of his
workers are vegetables.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 21:13:43 +0000
From: Klaudia (klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com)
Subject: Earthquakes
Earlier today I mentioned about earthquakes. This is not the same book,
but also here is told that occultists are allowed to tell sometimes
about coming earthquakes. How many times they have done it?
http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/GA/GA0107/19090101p01.html;mark=704,36,46#WN_mark
End of this message is a quote by Doctor Steiner:
A question was handed to me this morning about earthquake catastrophes.
The question runs as follows: ìWhat is the occult explanation of
earthquakes? Can they be foreseen? If particular catastrophes can be
foreseen, why should it not be possible to give some warning beforehand?
Such a warning might possibly be ineffective the first time but
certainly not on another occasion.î
You may remember something of what was said at the end of the lecture on
the interior of the earth about the possibility of earthquakes. We will
not consider that now but enter directly into this question. In reality
it has two sides. The one is: Whether from the occult connections which
can be discerned, earthquakes can be foreseen? The answer to this is
that the knowledge of such matters belongs to the deepest realm of
occult science. In respect of a particular event on the earth, an event
with roots as deeply laid as those described to-day, and connected with
causes extending widely over the earth ó in respect of such an event it
is absolutely correct to say that even in a particular case an
indication of time can be given. It would certainly be possible for the
occultist to give such an indication. But the other side of the question
is: whether it is permissible for such indications to be given? ó For
one who confronts the occult secrets from outside it will seem almost a
matter of course that the answer will be ìYes!î And yet the truth is
that in regard to such events it is actually only twice or three times
in any one century ó at the very most, twice or three times ó that any
prediction can be announced from the centers of Initiation. For you must
remember that these things are connected with the karma of humanity as a
whole and if, for example, they were avoided in one instance they would
inevitably occur in some other place and in a different form. The
prediction itself would alter nothing. And just think what a terrible
encroachment it would be into the karma of the earth as a whole if human
measures were adopted to prevent such happenings. The reaction would be
so fearful, so violent, that only in very rare and exceptional cases
would a high Initiate, foreseeing an earthquake, be able to make use of
his knowledge to help himself or those near him. With full knowledge he
would have to face his end, as a matter of course! For these things that
have been implicit in the karma of humanity for thousands and millions
of years cannot be paralyzed by measures adopted during one brief period
of evolution. ó But there is still more to add.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 00:49:30 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Earthquakes
Thanks for this Klaudia. Fascinating, indeed. This deserves a second
look...
Rudolf, you wrote:
) You may remember something of what was said at the end of the lecture on
) the interior of the earth about the possibility of earthquakes. We will
) not consider that now but enter directly into this question. In reality
) it has two sides. The one is: Whether from the occult connections which
) can be discerned, earthquakes can be foreseen? The answer to this is
) that the knowledge of such matters belongs to the deepest realm of
) occult science. In respect of a particular event on the earth, an event
) with roots as deeply laid as those described to-day, and connected with
) causes extending widely over the earth - in respect of such an event it
) is absolutely correct to say that even in a particular case an
) indication of time can be given. It would certainly be possible for the
) occultist to give such an indication. But the other side of the question
) is: whether it is permissible for such indications to be given? - For
) one who confronts the occult secrets from outside it will seem almost a
) matter of course that the answer will be "Yes!" And yet the truth is
) that in regard to such events it is actually only twice or three times
) in any one century - at the very most, twice or three times - that any
) prediction can be announced from the centers of Initiation. For you must
) remember that these things are connected with the karma of humanity as a
) whole and if, for example, they were avoided in one instance they would
) inevitably occur in some other place and in a different form. The
) prediction itself would alter nothing. And just think what a terrible
) encroachment it would be into the karma of the earth as a whole if human
) measures were adopted to prevent such happenings. The reaction would be
) so fearful, so violent, that only in very rare and exceptional cases
) would a high Initiate, foreseeing an earthquake, be able to make use of
) his knowledge to help himself or those near him. With full knowledge he
) would have to face his end, as a matter of course! For these things that
) have been implicit in the karma of humanity for thousands and millions
) of years cannot be paralyzed by measures adopted during one brief period
) of evolution..
Walden replies:
Might we assume then that a "high Initiate" might be someone drawn to
Waldorf Education as a teacher? Might we also gather from your insightful
words that these Initiates should not make use of their knowledge to
interfere with instances of bullying in the schools, for example... or other
problems as seen through *ordinary mortal eyes* because only the
Initiate/Occultist understands that "these things that have been implicit
in the karma of humanity for thousands and millions of years cannot be
paralyzed by measures adopted during one brief period of evolution.. ?"
This piece (above) speaks volumes to the dysfunction we see in Waldorf
Education. This world/history view simply MUST be made available to parents
when they inquire at the schools. Steiner constantly speaks of the occult.
The occult clearly permeates much of Waldorf teacher training yet that word
does not appear in Waldorf public relations. Why? One word but it carries a
heavy meaning. Why do they fear the word "occult?" Why can they not openly
speak of the "occult" with parents? That one word would cause many people,
perhaps, to dig deeper. Occult... interesting definition here:
Mirriam -Webster
Main Entry: 1oc…cult
Pronunciation: &-'k<, ”-
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Latin occultare, frequentative of occulere
Date: 1500
: to shut off from view or exposure
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 869
-- Topica Digest --
FW: TOPICA INSIDER NEWS: AOL & Hotmail Email Client Changes
By Gary GoodWinter.com
Re: group souls attn. Klaudia
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: Walden, Peter S, Charlie, racism & kids
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Waldorf Education and Anthroposophy I, Shakespeare
By klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com
Re: on MCS -- thanks for the info
By BarleySinger creative-interweb.com
Re: Waldorf Education and Anthroposophy I, Shakespeare
By fractalfrydaddy comcast.net
Re: Earthquakes
By fractalfrydaddy comcast.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 09:13:13 -0500
From: Gary Bonhiver (Gary goodwinter.com)
Subject: FW: TOPICA INSIDER NEWS: AOL & Hotmail Email Client Changes
Waldorf-critics subscribers using AOL or Hotmail email accounts, please
read...
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) Reply-To: editorial get.topica.com
) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 17:48:48 +0000
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 09:49:57 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: group souls attn. Klaudia
on 11/7/02 12:44 PM, Klaudia at klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com wrote:
)
) Klaudia:
) I have understood this way: each plant (means each carrot etc.) has
) physical and etheric body.
) Maybe "group-soul" and "I" are not synonymes.
Sharon: I'd say that group soul and "I" are definitely not synonyms. I am
very interested in your interpretation Klaudia because I have put quite a
bit of effort into trying to understand whether *group souls* of animals and
plants have Is or not and have not been able to come to an absolute
conclusion. It seems that the *individual* "I" can only be developed in
humans, it is what separates man from plants and animals. The I is the body
that can remember past lives, this is the body that must be developed by
initiates in order to recognize those that they worked with in past lives.
The I will enable Anthroposophists to reincarnate together in core groups
spread around the earth in the Sixth Epoch.
Group souls are located in the astral world and animals, and man share
a group soul. Every human astral body contains the same animal group-soul
and the human can only "become independent of this animal-ego when he
develops astral sight and becomes a companion of astral beings" (Steiner,
"Theosophy of the Rosicrucian" 24). Plants, animals, minerals and people
(who are not considered animals) not only exist in the physical world but
also in part or parcel in other worlds. For example, a crystal exists in the
physical world but has its consciousness in the higher world of Inspiration
(also called the Harmony of the Spheres or mental world). Man is the "crown
of physical creation" because he has consciousness on the physical plane;
the animal has consciousness on the astral plane / world of Imagination; and
the plant on the mental plane / world of Inspiration.
Steiner says that "strands" of lions go up from the physical lion on earth
to the astral world and "unite into the group-soul that is common to all
individual lions living on earth". Man shares the animal group souls until
he develops astral sight and becomes a companion of astral beings.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 13:56:26 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Walden, Peter S, Charlie, racism & kids
_lumiere wrote:
) There has never been a point-by-point, lesson-by-lesson, year-by-year
analysis
) of the racialist content of the Waldorf curriculum. This is because it is
hidden,
) protected, waffled over, lied about and kept by the inner circle of
Anthroposphists
) in Waldorf schools, unknown even to the ordinary teachers.
)
) There needs to be an investigation in depth of the Waldorf curriculum to
match
) Sharon's (and the three Peters', and Dan's, and others') work on Steiner's
) religion.
)
) N'est-ce pas vrai?
Walden: Oui - c'est vrai. It boggles the mind that there have been no such
studies. Nothing about Waldorf - the religion behind it or the racist
element or studies of any kind. Incredible. I think it has to do with
universities and mainstream media and the perceived need to be politically
correct. Waldorf begs investigation, IMO. The "largest and fastest growing
independent school movement" deserves to have *someone* peek under the silk
sheets. We see Howard Gardner's recent quote about Waldorf -
http://www.waldorfcritics.org/index.html#Gardner
after his name and position were used for years by Waldorf PR - but why not
dig deeper? Fascinating lack of interest from a sensitive, careful,
politically correct system which happily throws public money into something
it does not care to understand. Yes, lumiere - I echo your question...
"what about the children?"
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 22:23:14 +0000
From: Klaudia (klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com)
Subject: Waldorf Education and Anthroposophy I, Shakespeare
Waldorf Education and Anthroposophy I
by Rudolf Steiner
Has anyone read that book? Especially I'm interesting to know, what
Doctor Steiner told about Shakespeare. Somehow I have a feeling that
somewhere Steiner has told some esoteric explanation about Shakespeare's
plays especially in Old English. Has somebody heard anything about that?
I have not heard even a rumour about that, but I have my reasons to ask
this.
"Publisher Comments:
This is the first of two previously untranslated volumes of Rudolf
Steiner's public lectures on Waldorf education. Readers familiar with
Steiner's lectures for teachers will discover here how Steiner presented
his ideas to the general public with surprising directness. Teaching,
Steiner says, should be artistic, creative, and improvisational, not
dogmatic. Yet he is clear that the great battle concerns the spiritual
nature of the child. Other themes include understanding the role of
health and illness in education, as well as repeated expositions of the
three major phases in child development: imitation, authority, and
freedom. There are also two lectures Steiner gave in England on
Shakespeare and new ideals in education. In all, a fascinating volume."
http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=62-0880103876-0
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 15:44:01 +1030
From: BarleySinger (BarleySinger creative-interweb.com)
Subject: Re: on MCS -- thanks for the info
At 06-11-02 01:34 AM Wednesday, you wrote:
)Frankly, it sounds horrible. I am not sure how someone afflicted with MCS
)can live in the modern world.
The short answer is - we can't. (You can imagine how this increases the
risk factors for people like us, in dealing with Waldorf - they assume that
since we can't live in the present, we want to join them in clinging to the
past, instead of realizing that we think that it is the future that we
believe will be driven by people like us, and anyone else who takes heed of
the problems of which our very existence and suffering is a warning, like
canaries in the coal mines of yesteryear.)
A few years ago there was a book written about people with MCS. It is
called "The Dispossessed". and it was written by Rhonda Zwillinger. She
interviewed people with MCS. Most of them have been completely abandoned
by their friends and family, and have no money at all. They live in the
desert in tents or out of old cars. Image being a refugee from poisons
that you cannot escape.
You can read a bit about the book at :
http://www.mindfully.org/Health/Dispossessed/
This link here has an article about the book, published in emagazine
online. Read the article for an understanding of our life (and some
pictures that look a lot like my wife at her worst - this is one of the
only places you'll find someone who looks like that, who doesn't have
numbers tattooed on their arm...).
http://www.emagazine.com/september-october_1998/0998feat2.html
Now you know why many of us self-describe (or are described by others) as
"allergic to the 20th(21st) century"... (sigh) In fact, the condition is
described by some doctors as "20th century syndrome", or was until the turn
of the Millennium. We moved to the other side of the planet when we
realized what was happening. There is no longer any such thing as a safe
place for us to live in the USA (though a few folks with MCS manage to
survive in places like the mountains of New Mexico, and other unwanted
places, we had needs which would not be possible to meet in that
region). The US is just is too polluted. If we had stayed my wife would
be dead by now.
Fortunately one side effect of governments being slow to recognise the
condition is that having it does not always prevent you from migrating to
another country. Since we were moving in order for my wife to recover,
instead of expecting to be a burden on the resources of our new home, we
feel that this is only right - those restrictions aren't intended to keep
out productive individuals who do not require a large investment in medical
care, and there isn't a lot that expensive medical technology can do for
folks who have this.
We have even helped other people through the hurdles of a major move to
another country, with MCS. Getting on an airplane for 18 hours could kill
a person with severe MCS. Any plane that does international flights
(basically any jumbo) gets regularly sprayed with pesticides. Some
airlines spray disembarking passengers with pesticides right out of the can
(despite the warnings on the can against contact with skin and eyes) as
they get off of the plane. For a person with MCS the results of being
sprayed with pesticides could be catastrophic.
Many people with MCS are able to have good (though completely isolated)
lives as long as they live away from synthetic materials, away from cities,
away from chemical agriculture and industry. Since these are also
characteristics of the Waldorf Schools as they are portrayed to the public,
they are particularly tempting to people with MCS, especially given that
they hold out the extremely tempting prospect of human contact in a safe
airspace.
It is common, and indeed safest, for people with MCS to live incredibly
isolated lives, in order to avoid exposure to the chemicals that the rest
of the world still takes for granted. Unfortunately, safe places can be
hard enough to find that such people often wind up completely housebound,
and sometimes unable even to make full use of their own homes, having to
restrict themselves to a few rooms within them.
After living like that for a while, any place that promises instant
community in a non-toxic airspace, complete with friends for yourself and
your child(ren), and the ability to exercise and be valued for your skills
with those natural materials which remain safe for you to handle, targets
the greatest vulnerabilities of a person with MCS. This may, for many
sufferers, quite possibly be the first time in many years that they have
had this opportunity to be around other people. Any oddities may not be
noticed at first, as they are overwhelmed with gratitude for the simple
human contact.
And then they will begin to notice the people telling them that "sometimes
we just have to work through our karma", and asking them what lessons they
think their illness was given to them in order to teach them...
Their children's genetic predisposition to the condition will be dismissed
by the school's anthroposophical doctor, and they will be told things like
the claim we faced, that any symptoms shown are due to the parents choice
to teach their child an emotional vocabulary, which in the opinion of the
Anthro. "Doctor" has not benefited their health by allowing them to express
their feelings about their intense and unusually restrictive life, but has
instead damaged their health by "forcing them too much into their head, too
soon".
If the person doesn't know enough about their own condition, this can be
incredibly damaging in a medical sense, if they buy into Steiner's
explanation of the points where the schools appear to agree with what
they've learned on their own about how to care for their health, and start
to turn to his "Spiritual Science" for answers to their very real medical
problems.
What confuses people, especially at Waldorf, about the way we've learned to
cope with this condition, is that we are NOT interested in regressing to
another era in search of answers - we are interested in progressing FORWARD
to another era. We are interested in seeing the development of sustainable
technologies; our daughter's lifelong goal has always been to be an
astronaut, since she first learned to say the word "space". We think
that's a great goal for her, and hope for her sake, and everyone else's,
that humanity learns to respect the limitations of the human body and other
life forms, so that we can find ways to develop survivable technologies,
instead of unsurvivable ones. We can't see how astronauts are going to
survive longer voyages if we can't get a handle on producing technologies
that don't poison people when they're both confined in the same small
airspace (like in a space vehicle).
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 21:46:07 -0800
From: Ray Fulk (fractalfrydaddy comcast.net)
Subject: Re: Waldorf Education and Anthroposophy I, Shakespeare
Klaudia:
) Waldorf Education and Anthroposophy I
) by Rudolf Steiner
)
) Has anyone read that book? Especially I'm interesting to know,
) what
) Doctor Steiner told about Shakespeare. Somehow I have a feeling
) that
) somewhere Steiner has told some esoteric explanation about
) Shakespeare's
) plays especially in Old English. Has somebody heard anything about
) that?
) I have not heard even a rumour about that, but I have my reasons
) to ask
) this.
Hi Klaudia.
What an interesting connection. There is the Baconian-Shakespeare
connection theory: Francis Bacon wrote some of the plays of
Shakespeare, his veiled signature and messages written in cryptography.
What makes this particular theory of authorship relevant to Steiner is
that Bacon was a Brother of the Rosy Cross.
My affections for the bard as a self-educated commoner prevent me
from subscribing to elitist, conspiracy theories. However, there is a
large amount of information on the subject. It would not be all that
surprising that Steiner was privy to deciphered crypt (or deciphered it
himself -turns out to be very simple crypt...no jab intended :)
http://www.bardweb.net/debates.html
Ray
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 22:34:14 -0800
From: Ray Fulk (fractalfrydaddy comcast.net)
Subject: Re: Earthquakes
Steiner on forseeing eathquakes:
"It would certainly be possible
) for the
) occultist to give such an indication. But the other side of the
) question
) is: whether it is permissible for such indications to be given? ó
) For
) one who confronts the occult secrets from outside it will seem
) almost a
) matter of course that the answer will be ìYes!î And yet the truth
) is
) that in regard to such events it is actually only twice or three
) times
) in any one century ó at the very most, twice or three times ó that
) any
) prediction can be announced from the centers of Initiation.
Translation: unpredictables are hard to predict. Gone are the days of
using solar eclispses for ultimate effect. The Apocalyse seems to
happen every now and then, much to the demise of credibility to those
who claim so.Wouldn't want to be put on such a shakey spot.
"... For
) you must
) remember that these things are connected with the karma of
) humanity as a
) whole and if, for example, they were avoided in one instance they
) would
) inevitably occur in some other place and in a different form. The
) prediction itself would alter nothing. And just think what a
) terrible
) encroachment it would be into the karma of the earth as a whole if
) human
) measures were adopted to prevent such happenings.
We have gone from early warning (imho, a "karmically" good thing)to
prevention of earthquakes?
"...The reaction
) would be
) so fearful, so violent, that only in very rare and exceptional
) cases
) would a high Initiate, foreseeing an earthquake, be able to make
) use of
) his knowledge to help himself or those near him. With full
) knowledge he
) would have to face his end, as a matter of course! For these
) things that
) have been implicit in the karma of humanity for thousands and
) millions
) of years cannot be paralyzed by measures adopted during one brief
) period
) of evolution. ó But there is still more to add.
The categorical imperitive of karmic law. From earthquake victims to
victims on the playground, at least he was consistent.
Ray
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 870
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Waldorf Education and Anthroposophy I, Shakespeare
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: Waldorf Education and Anthroposophy I, Shakespeare
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: Waldorf Education and Anthroposophy I, Shakespeare
By owenapp suscom-maine.net
Re: Waldorf Education and Anthroposophy I, Shakespeare
By fractalfrydaddy comcast.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 08:25:51 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Waldorf Education and Anthroposophy I, Shakespeare
on 11/8/02 9:46 PM, Ray Fulk at fractalfrydaddy comcast.net wrote:
) Hi Klaudia.
) What an interesting connection. There is the Baconian-Shakespeare
) connection theory: Francis Bacon wrote some of the plays of
) Shakespeare, his veiled signature and messages written in cryptography.
) What makes this particular theory of authorship relevant to Steiner is
) that Bacon was a Brother of the Rosy Cross.
) My affections for the bard as a self-educated commoner prevent me
) from subscribing to elitist, conspiracy theories. However, there is a
) large amount of information on the subject. It would not be all that
) surprising that Steiner was privy to deciphered crypt (or deciphered it
) himself -turns out to be very simple crypt...no jab intended :)
Sharon: Wow Ray, I hadn't heard the Shakespeare - Bacon theory before,
though I read in H. Spencer Lewis' quaint little book entitled- "Rosicrucian
Questions and Answers with the Complete History of the Rosicrucian Order"
(published by Supreme Grand Lodge of Amorc, San Jose CA) - that Bacon wrote
the Rosicrucian manifestos.
Historian Francis Yates says Shakespeare was a Rosicrucian but that a group
of Lutheran mystics lead by Johann Valentin Andreae actually wrote the
manifestos. Yates says Christian Rosenkreutz never existed - Steiner
believed he actually lived.
Waldorf teaches Shakespeare because it's supposedly coded, just as they
teach coded fairy tales.
I've been meaning to read Paolo Rossi's book on Bacon, you've re-sparked my
interest.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 09:36:24 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Waldorf Education and Anthroposophy I, Shakespeare
on 11/8/02 2:23 PM, Klaudia at klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com wrote:
)
)
) Waldorf Education and Anthroposophy I
) by Rudolf Steiner
)
) Has anyone read that book? Especially I'm interesting to know, what
) Doctor Steiner told about Shakespeare.
Sharon: I have the book Klaudia, thanks for pointing it out. Nothing we
didn't already know (G). Basically Steiner is saying that the schools are
based on "exact clairvoyance" which means a constant diet of his coded
Anthroposophy is being fed to pupils in order to develop in the pupil the
ability to see the "absolutely real" spirit world. He says, "Through what I
have called "imagination", "inspiration", and "intuition", we learn to
perceive in the spiritual world". (221) Critics have known for years the
Anthro meaning of those words. Steiner is basically saying that Waldorf is a
mystery school. "By the witness of deeply moving scenes and actions, the
mysteries sought to bring the neophyte to the point of living and
experiencing outside the physical body" (226).
Steiner: For Shakespeare, the dramatist, through his dramatic works was a
great educator and he was also a personality who, through his works, was of
immense significance for the whole life of humankind. Indeed, in a sense,
the connection of drama and education is historical through the fact that
Shakespeare the dramatist was Goethe's teacher. Studying Goethe's biography
not only factually but with the inner eye of a discerning spirit, we become
aware that Goethe took from Shakespeare far more than the external features
of dramatic form." (203)
"What lives in Shakespeare works into the soul and mind of the child, and
becomes in the child a strong impelling force" (212 Steiner, R. Waldorf
Education and Anthroposophy 1921-22. Anthroposophic Press 1995).
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 16:51:12 -0500
From: "Owen Appraisal" (owenapp suscom-maine.net)
Subject: Re: Waldorf Education and Anthroposophy I, Shakespeare
Coded how? Sorry for my ignorance, but I've never heard about this. Jane.
----- Original Message -----
From: "mysplum" (mysplum earthlink.net)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 11:25 AM
Subject: Re: Waldorf Education and Anthroposophy I, Shakespeare
) on 11/8/02 9:46 PM, Ray Fulk at fractalfrydaddy comcast.net wrote:
)
) ) Hi Klaudia.
) ) What an interesting connection. There is the Baconian-Shakespeare
) ) connection theory: Francis Bacon wrote some of the plays of
) ) Shakespeare, his veiled signature and messages written in cryptography.
) ) What makes this particular theory of authorship relevant to Steiner is
) ) that Bacon was a Brother of the Rosy Cross.
) ) My affections for the bard as a self-educated commoner prevent me
) ) from subscribing to elitist, conspiracy theories. However, there is a
) ) large amount of information on the subject. It would not be all that
) ) surprising that Steiner was privy to deciphered crypt (or deciphered it
) ) himself -turns out to be very simple crypt...no jab intended :)
)
) Sharon: Wow Ray, I hadn't heard the Shakespeare - Bacon theory before,
) though I read in H. Spencer Lewis' quaint little book entitled-
"Rosicrucian
) Questions and Answers with the Complete History of the Rosicrucian Order"
) (published by Supreme Grand Lodge of Amorc, San Jose CA) - that Bacon
wrote
) the Rosicrucian manifestos.
)
) Historian Francis Yates says Shakespeare was a Rosicrucian but that a
group
) of Lutheran mystics lead by Johann Valentin Andreae actually wrote the
) manifestos. Yates says Christian Rosenkreutz never existed - Steiner
) believed he actually lived.
)
) Waldorf teaches Shakespeare because it's supposedly coded, just as they
) teach coded fairy tales.
)
) I've been meaning to read Paolo Rossi's book on Bacon, you've re-sparked
my
) interest.
)
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 19:59:42 -0800
From: Ray Fulk (fractalfrydaddy comcast.net)
Subject: Re: Waldorf Education and Anthroposophy I, Shakespeare
) Sharon: Wow Ray, I hadn't heard the Shakespeare - Bacon theory before,
) though I read in H. Spencer Lewis' quaint little book entitled-
) "RosicrucianQuestions and Answers with the Complete History of the
) Rosicrucian Order"
) (published by Supreme Grand Lodge of Amorc, San Jose CA) - that
) Bacon wrote
) the Rosicrucian manifestos.
Sharon, check out this site on the Globe Theatre, it's connection with
the octagonal designs of temples of the Templars, their riverside
landholdings an Bacon:
http://www.sirbacon.org/leith.htm
) Historian Francis Yates says Shakespeare was a Rosicrucian but
) that a group
) of Lutheran mystics lead by Johann Valentin Andreae actually wrote the
) manifestos. Yates says Christian Rosenkreutz never existed - Steiner
) believed he actually lived.
)
) Waldorf teaches Shakespeare because it's supposedly coded, just as
) theyteach coded fairy tales.
Well now, that's interesting. I really don't see how students would be
able to assimulate this kind of information unless it was intended to
be accessed at a later date, an awakening of knowledge unknown by it's
possessor. What are your sources?
Ray
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 871
-- Topica Digest --
Shakespeare - Bacon
By klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com
Re: Shakespeare - Bacon
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: Waldorf Education and Anthroposophy I, Shakespeare
By mysplum earthlink.net
Heindel
By klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com
Waldorf school in Ottawa changes from bilingual
By dan dandugan.com
Waldorf arguments against homeschooling
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Waldorf Education and Anthroposophy I, Shakespeare
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: changes in anthropop periodicals
By dan dandugan.com
children and choices
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Waldorf Education and Anthroposophy I, Shakespeare
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 13:08:09 +0000
From: Klaudia (klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com)
Subject: Shakespeare - Bacon
mysplum wrote:
) Sharon: Wow Ray, I hadn't heard the Shakespeare - Bacon theory before,
Klaudia:
Theory that Bacon has written Shakespeare¥s plays is quite well known at
masonic and rosicrucian clubs.
Doctor Steiner denied that Francis Bacon was the true author of the
Shakespeare's plays. Steiner says that both Bacon and Shakespeare were
inspired by the same Rosicrucian source.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 12:58:18 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Shakespeare - Bacon
on 11/10/02 5:08 AM, Klaudia at klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com wrote:
) Klaudia:
) Theory that Bacon has written Shakespeare¥s plays is quite well known at
) masonic and rosicrucian clubs.
) Doctor Steiner denied that Francis Bacon was the true author of the
) Shakespeare's plays. Steiner says that both Bacon and Shakespeare were
) inspired by the same Rosicrucian source.
Sharon: Christian Rosenkreutz himself.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:50:58 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Waldorf Education and Anthroposophy I, Shakespeare
on 11/9/02 7:59 PM, Ray Fulk at fractalfrydaddy comcast.net wrote:
)
) Sharon, check out this site on the Globe Theatre, it's connection with
) the octagonal designs of temples of the Templars, their riverside
) landholdings an Bacon:
)
) http://www.sirbacon.org/leith.htm
Sharon: Gorgeous, thanks Ray.
)
)) Historian Francis Yates says Shakespeare was a Rosicrucian but
)) that a group
)) of Lutheran mystics lead by Johann Valentin Andreae actually wrote the
)) manifestos. Yates says Christian Rosenkreutz never existed - Steiner
)) believed he actually lived.
))
)) Waldorf teaches Shakespeare because it's supposedly coded, just as
)) theyteach coded fairy tales.
)
) Well now, that's interesting. I really don't see how students would be
) able to assimulate this kind of information unless it was intended to
) be accessed at a later date, an awakening of knowledge unknown by it's
) possessor. What are your sources?
Sharon: There have been *lots* of sources along the way Ray from which I
have sifted, my favorites being: "The Head of God" by Keith Laidler who
really explained the coded fairy world and wonder stuff so well I list him
first. Grant it, a dubious source, but I give the book the thumbs up anyway.
It's a must read, though be warned, the book has been known to "shatter
people's faith" - fortunately, I had none to shatter. (G) It's about the
Templars, the Holy Grail, the Baphomet Head, Rosslyn and all sorts of juicy
occult stuff. Next... Frances Yates' "The Rosicrucian Enlightenment", which
you **MUST** read if you haven't already. (Go immediately after reading this
post and seek a copy (G))! Yates was a very respected historian so you will
gain a nice solid understanding of Rosicrucian history, which includes
Shakespeare, Elizabeth, John Dee, Bacon, Fludd, Agrippa, Christian
Rosenkreutz and *everybody* you should know about except...unfortunately...
those "other" Rosicrucians we're so fond of discussing here on critics, nor
"those" with headquarters in San Jose or Oceanside (G) (FYI Max Heindel
crossed the ocean and met with Steiner, returned to Oceanside on a mission,
having been sent by a *great master*, who I believe, was Steiner himself).
Be sure to read Brian Vicker's "Occult and Scientific Mentalities in the
Renaissance" after Yates because he refutes some of her claims, and he also
alludes to Yates as being an occultist.(G) Vickers is respected, published
by Cambridge University. Yates has also left us with another pearl called
"The Occult Philosophy In The Elizabethan Age". Then there is dear Geoffrey
Ahern for whom I have so much affection, who wrote "The Sun at Midnight"
which is the only book in English giving an in depth look into the Steiner
cult. He mentions the Shakespeare connection. Wish he and Yates were still
alive. Ahern's chapter 1 begins: "Mercy on us! - We split, we split! -
Farewell my wife and children!' - 'Farewell brother!' - 'We split, we split!
We split' (William Shakespeare, the Tempest). And if I could write another
Waldorf exit letter, I should like to include that quote (G). Last but not
least is Steiner himself, and my special thanks to Klaudia who has once
again slipped me a clue which has lead to waterproof evidence. To her I
would like to present a jewel studded pendant of Michael and the Dragon,
(such as those presented to the knights of the Order of the Garter) which
depends on the great collar of the Order of PLANS. With her I invest.
Fighting the Dragon of Wrong in defense of freedom of religion and beliefs .
Once again, Klaudia (St. George) - the great champion of Waldorf critics -
delivers me (one of PLANS' queens) from the dragon (demand for sound
evidence from Ray) (G) Hold on tight Ray, I shall start making my case with
the greatest of pleasure...but first, I have to go make dinner for
friends...Stay tuned for some superb quotes from Steiner (I kiss Klaudia)
and a story about princess Elizabeth and the Elector Palatine's wedding,
Lady Elizabeth's men (her company of players), the King's men (Shakespeare's
company) and so much more....
"His glassy essence - like an angry ape,
Plays such fantastic tricks before high heaven
As make the angels weep." WS
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 22:21:37 +0000
From: Klaudia (klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com)
Subject: Heindel
mysplum wrote:
(FYI Max Heindel
) crossed the ocean and met with Steiner, returned to Oceanside on a
) mission,
) having been sent by a *great master*, who I believe, was Steiner
) himself).
Klaudia:
Max Heindel was part of German royal family and his real name was Carl
Louis Von Grasshoff.
Max listened Doctor Steiner's lectures. According to some sources Max
lived together with Doctor Steiner, but I son't know is it true or not.
Max Heindel returned USA and published Steiner's lectures of Rosicrucian
Cosmo-Conceptions telling that those were his own. Maybe Steiner sent
him or maybe not.
Anyway Steiner and his followers were very angry for Max Heindel for
stealing of Steiner's knowledge.
Heindel's book "Rosicrucian Cosmo-Conceptions" is marvellous. If Steiner
published it, it is written much more complicately to read. Now it is
quite easy to read. It can be read (or loaded) at www.
Here is quote from rosicrucian page, where the name of Doctor Steiner is
not mentioned at all. Maybe he was mentioned as the "candidate of 1905"
http://rosicrucian.homestead.com/files/MH.htm
"Overwork and privation brought on a severe spell of heart trouble in
1905 and for months he lay at the point of death but upon recovery he
was even more keenly awake to the needs of humanity. He realized that it
was not so much from the need of physical food that mankind suffered as
it was because of soul hunger which lead them to do the things that
brought suffering upon them. He started out on a lecture tour which
eventually led him to Germany.
While in Germany, in the fall of 1907, where he had gone with the hopes
of contacting the Elder Brothers of the Rosicrucian Order, he was
unsuccessful, as it appeared to him, and in great dejection he prepared
to return to America; but one day a visitor appeared to him whom he
later learned was an Elder Brother of the Rosicrucian Order, (and who
became his Teacher). This Being was clothed in his vital body, and
offered to impart to him the teachings for which he had spent time and
money to find in Germany; but these teachings could only be given after
he, Max Heindel, would make a solemn promise never to divulge them,
(they must be kept secret). Having passed through an unhappy period of
soul hunger he was most desirous of sharing his knowledge with others,
who like himself were also seeking, he refused to accept anything which
he could not pass on to the world. The Teacher left him.
Later the Teacher appeared in his room again and told him that he, Max
Heindel, had stood his test. He stated that if he had accepted the
offer, namely, to keep the teachings secret from the world, he, the
Elder Brother, would have not returned. He was told that the candidate
whom they had first chosen, who had been under their instruction for
several years, had failed to pass his test in 1905; also that Max
Heindel had been under the observation of the Elder Brothers for a
number of years as the most fit candidate, should the first one fail. In
addition he was told that the teachings must be given to the public
before the close of the first decade of the century, whcih would be the
end of December, 1909.
At this last interview with the Teacher he was given instruction how to
reach the Temple of the Rose Cross. At this Temple Max Heindel spent a
little over one month in direct communication with and under the
personal instructions of the Elder Brothers, who imparted to him the
greater part of the teachings contained in "The Rosicrucian Cosmo-
Conception". The first draft of this book, which was made while he was
in the Temple, the Teacher told him was but an outline. The heavy
psychic atmosphere of Germany was particularly adapted to the
communication of mystical thought to the consciousness of the
canididate, but he was told that the three hundred and fifty pages of
manuscript which he had written would not satisfy him when he reached
the electric atmosphere of America and that he would then wish to
rewrite the entire book. In his great enthusiasm he at first doubted
this. He felt that he had received a wonderfully complete message. But
the Elder Brother's predictions were true. After Mr. Heindel had spent a
few weeks in New York City, what the Elder Brother had told him proved
to be a fact. The style in which the manuscript was written did not then
please him, and he set about the work of rewriting.
He returned to America in the spring of 1909 where he at once started to
formulate the Rosicrucian message which he had received from the Elder
Brothers. This was given to the world in the form of a book entitled
"The Rosicrucian Cosmo-Conception", which is a masterpiece of mystical
literature. It contains one of the most comprehensive, simply written,
and complete histories of the evolution of the earth and man that has
been written for centuries."
) To her I
) would like to present a jewel studded pendant of Michael and the Dragon,
) (such as those presented to the knights of the Order of the Garter)
) which
) depends on the great collar of the Order of PLANS. With her I invest.'
Klaudia: I'm wordless. I'll look cute with that pendant. I joined the
list to get more information about anthroposophy. And that I've got
plenty here. Thanks to everyone. You have done good work.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 16:06:42 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Waldorf school in Ottawa changes from bilingual
There is a curious item in the newsletter of the Ontario Waldorf schools,
http://www.waldorf.ca/Other/spring2002.pdf
about how the "Ecole Parsifal School" has changed to "Parsifal--A
Waldorf School." The article by a representative of the "Interim
Leadership Group" says:
"Led by AWSNA consultant Antje Ghaznavi we are brought to reorient
our school's destiny in regard to its language policy. The temporary
name change from *Ecole Parsifal School* to *Parsifal--A Waldorf
School* makes this profound transformation visible to our community.
"Our enrolment dropped from 104 to 74 as a result of our
metamorphosis. We are currently at 84 students, which is very
encouraging. We have two split-grade classes and an almost entirely
new faculty.
"...Parsifal--A Waldorf School is strengthening its foundation with a
renewed deep and strong committment to the living education provided
through anthroposophical insight."
Hmm, methinks there's a story here that isn't being told. An "almost
entirely new faculty," and a quarter of the students leave. Anybody
know what really happened?
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 16:23:23 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Waldorf arguments against homeschooling
In the newsletter of the Waldorf School Association of Ontario,
http://www.waldorf.ca/Other/spring2002.pdf
there's a brief article announcing a Waldorf conference on
homeschooling, paired with a longer article by Mel Belenson, a
teacher at the Ottawa Waldorf School. Belenson says that there may be
valid reasons for wanting to homeschool, like there being no school
nearby, the school being full, or a disability that prevents
attendance. "It is difficult to imagine any other legitimate reason
for choosing home-schooling over enrolling in a Waldorf school."
Belenson argues "Does the parent feel he or she can do it better than
the professionals who are teaching daily in the classroom? ... Does
not the striving of the individuals who are responsible for the
classroom have any validity? ... Waldorf education is primarily a
social education. The origins of the first Waldorf school, and the
philosophical underpinnings of the education, attest to that [that
the school is to foster the Threefold Social Order]. The continuing
transformations of family life attest to that [homeschoolers can't
have their lifestyles controlled by the faculty]. Self-centered
isolation and individualization of children at an early age are not
in keeping with the spirit of Waldorf education [God forbid children
should be individualized]."
"It is hardly likely that the relationship between a parent and a
child can carry the same impact as does that between the class
teacher and the child."
"...Home-schooling that makes use of Waldorf methods cannot be true
Waldorf education. Support and encouragement of so-called Waldorf
home-schooling on the part of existing schools, organizations,
internet websites, publications, etc. is not a good thing."
The newsletter promises to publish correspondence on the subject.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 01:35:07 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Waldorf Education and Anthroposophy I, Shakespeare
on 11/9/02 1:51 PM, Owen Appraisal at owenapp suscom-maine.net wrote:
) Coded how? Sorry for my ignorance, but I've never heard about this. Jane.
Sharon: Nor had I until after we left Waldorf and I began to research
Anthroposophy. Like Waldorf, there is much more than meets the eye when it
comes to *certain* fairy tales, Shakespearean plays, Wagnerian opera etc.
Waldorf uses esoteric works for occult initiation, hidden "truths" are
secretly and mysteriously conveyed to pupils in coded stories. In other
words, Shakespeare is taught in Waldorf because he is saying much more than
the average person understands. For example he might have been alluding to
occultist and alchemist Frederick of Wurttemberg in his cryptic reference
"cosen garmombles" in Merry Wives of Windser, but he's also divulging
Rosicrucian "truths" when he says things like: "And I will purge thy mortal
grossness so That thou shalt like an airy spirit go" (WS Midsummer Night's
Dream).
Remember, Steiner, who fancied himself as a Rosicrucian, came long after
Shakespeare. Steiner's religion was heavily steeped in Blavatsky's
Theosophy. When Anthroposophists call Shakespeare "a great Anthroposophist"
(as documented by G. Ahern), know that Shakespeare was not an
Anthroposophist, but a Rosicrucian who lived a couple centuries before
Steiner was even born.
"What's in a name? A rose by any other name will smell just as sweet." WS
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 22:40:12 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: changes in anthropop periodicals
7/13/02, Dan Dugan wrote:
)1) The U.S. edition of Anthroposophy Worldwide has ceased
)publication "due to financial constraints," according to the
)Anthroposophical Society in America. It was a sanitized version of
)the Goetheanum newsletter for members.
Now The Threefold Review is folding. The Threefold Review has been an
independent voice for Anthroposophical politics (the Threefold Social
Order) since 1989. Co-editor Gary Lamb says that the closure is due
to lack of money and the illness of co-editor Joel Kobran.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 22:47:39 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: children and choices
An area where Waldorf education couldn't be farther from current
developmental thought is in the area of children making choices.
Rudolf Steiner taught that children should devote themselves to the
authority of their parents and teachers before puberty, and parents
are advised to give small children no choices at all. For example,
this posting from Robert Schultz:
"Eugene Schwartz has been spending the week here in Aspen and we have
been hosting events nightly. One of his central points has been that
the move to premature liberties is innapropriate in WE prior to the
teen years. The findings he uses are based on his 20+ years of
teaching. He stresses that the natural drive towards reverence
towards adults and teachers/parents in particular is stunted when
children take on choices too early. In addition, it deprives them of
the lovign authority with which to 'rub up against'. This rubbing
process deepens their thought and belief process so that they will
have the strength to develop convictions as they move into
adolescents and and greater liberty." [From: Bob Schultz; Sent:
Wednesday, March 12, 1997; To: WALDORF MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU;
Subject: Re: computers and education]
And this one from Nancy Parsons:
***begin quoted message
Dear Friends,
Consider these two perspectives
At 08:12 AM 3/22/99 -0500, Bruce Jackson wrote:
)
)But what IS freedom - if the kids cannot for themselves decide that it is
)wrong then no amount of rules is going to help.
Then Rise Smythe-Freed wrote
)Power and control in the child's life should also always lie with
)the child, as well, to the extent that the child can handle it. The
)parent and educator rightly give over power and control to the child
)as rapidly and to the extent that the child is capable of handling
)the power and control.
And compare them to this,
"In brief, Rudolf Steiner stated that, if we wish to educate children so
that they are fit to be free adults, we must see to it that, while they are
below the age of seven, we offer them an environment where they can
intensely imitate the activities of worthy human beings. If we want to
prepare children so that, when they are adults, they will experience their
fellow human beings as equals, we must insure that true authorities stand
before these children when they are between the ages of seven and fourteen.
Finally, Steiner stated that, if we wish our children to become adults who
can base their economic, material decisions on the principles of community
and human love, while they are teenagers we must teach them with love and
direct them constantly to the highest ideals. In other words, if we want
the adults of the future to achieve the goals of freedom, equality, and
community, while they are children, we must first have them imitate,
follow, and revere."
--from my introduction to _Education as a Force for Social Change_, now
posted in the Waldorf Section of www.bobnancy.com This passage is an
accurate summary of the pedagogical content of Steiner's lecture of August
9, 1919 in Dornach.
I have to wonder how it came about that teachers and parents actively
participating in schools that state they are drawing on the rich pedagogy
that Rudolf Steiner gave could have come to the widespread notion (Bruce
and Rise are only echoing commonly held understandings) that *giving the
child "freedom to choose"* has anything at all to do with meeting their
needs.
"Freedom of choice" is only possible when first the faculty of critical
thinking has been fully developed and is then followed by the development
of the faculty of judgment. Within Steiner's view of human development and
out of our own observation we know that critical thinking *begins* to arise
around the age of 14 or 15 and that the capacity to judge doesn't *begin*
to arise until around the age of 21. What children at the different
development stages that involve educators *need* is to imitate, follow, and
revere, not to be given "freedom of choice."
Warm regards,
Nancy
*** end quoted message [Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999; From: BobNancy
Services (writeus BOBNANCY.COM); Subject: Re: Smoking Pot (was
Discipline); To: WALDORF MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU]
Forensic Psychologist Lita Linzer Schwartz (no relation to Eugene)
gives quite a different opinion, in the context of how to cult-proof
young people:
"There are strengths we can try to provide to all children so that
they will not be as vulnerable to the patter of cult recruiters (and
others) when they reach adolescence (Schwartz, 1991). We can begin
when the child is quite young, even two years old, to teach the child
to make choices and to live with them. If we begin with relatively
inconsequential matters, like what color shirt to wear today, the
child will become accustomed to choosing and to adjusting to the
consequences of choice. As the child gets older, the behavior of
choice is extended to more areas of activity. If the consequences are
sometimes less than what the child expected, this, too, is a lesson
that must be learned. Taking responsibility is something too few
accept today, and yet is a truly adult behavior. The goal here is to
have the child gain an interior locus of control, rather than a lack
of responsibility stemming from having others make decisions for him
or her." [Schwartz, Lita Linzer. "The Millennium is Here--and So are
the Cults." Cultic Studies Journal. Vol 18, 2001, p. 82 (quote pp.
95-96)]
In conclusion, Waldorf education appears to be designed to provide
just what is needed to prepare future cult members. Not surprising
for an educational system run by a cult-like religious sect.
-Dan Dugan
copy to Lita Linzer Schwartz, Ph.D., A.B.P.P.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 00:13:40 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf Education and Anthroposophy I, Shakespeare
Sharon, you wrote,
)Remember, Steiner, who fancied himself as a Rosicrucian, came long after
)Shakespeare. Steiner's religion was heavily steeped in Blavatsky's
)Theosophy. When Anthroposophists call Shakespeare "a great Anthroposophist"
)(as documented by G. Ahern), know that Shakespeare was not an
)Anthroposophist, but a Rosicrucian who lived a couple centuries before
)Steiner was even born.
Shakespeare was certainly hip to the popular astrology/occultism of
his time, but that doesn't make him a Rosicrucian. What does, in your
view?
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 872
-- Topica Digest --
study finds no link between MMR vaccine and autism
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: Waldorf school in Ottawa changes from bilingual
By nmfoss hotmail.com
Re: Waldorf Education and Anthroposophy I, Shakespeare
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: Heindel
By mysplum earthlink.net
RE: Heindel
By klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com
Re: Waldorf Education and Anthroposophy I, Shakespeare
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: Heindel
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: Waldorf Education and Anthroposophy I, Shakespeare
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Waldorf school in Ottawa changes from bilingual
By dan dandugan.com
RE: Heindel, future human form
By klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com
Veterans Day/Martinmas
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Waldorf arguments against homeschooling
By nmfoss hotmail.com
Re: Waldorf
By bradmartin sbcglobal.net
Stunted imagination
By maura mikulec.com
Re: Waldorf
By nmfoss hotmail.com
Re: Waldorf
By bradmartin sbcglobal.net
Re: Stunted imagination
By nmfoss hotmail.com
Re: Stunted imagination
By Diana.Winters worldnet.att.net
Re: Waldorf
By Diana.Winters worldnet.att.net
Re: Stunted imagination
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 08:02:08 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: study finds no link between MMR vaccine and autism
A friend of mine sent me the following link:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,834841,00.html
A study of more than half a million children has found no evidence of a
link between the MMR vaccine and the onset of autism
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 08:02:34 -0500
From: "Nicole Foss" (nmfoss hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf school in Ottawa changes from bilingual
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C28958.B13D30E0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Nicole:
As I understand it from having spoken to some of the parents who left
(and then came to our school), several parents set up a safety
committee in response to concerns, and letters, which presumably did
not lead to satisfactory responses, were written to a variety of
sources requesting explanation and clarification. I believe a
particular teacher was the primary focus of the difficulties. He left
and many of the rest of the faculty left as well (I don't know why
the others left), leaving some classes without a teacher for the
coming year. The students who left were mostly those whose classes no
longer existed.
Since the upheaval, Parsifal has made a great deal of progress in
rebuilding itself and both the faculty and parent body are optimistic
for the future. There are some very good teachers there.
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Dugan
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 10:27 PM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Waldorf school in Ottawa changes from bilingual
There is a curious item in the newsletter of the Ontario Waldorf schools,
http://www.waldorf.ca/Other/spring2002.pdf
about how the "Ecole Parsifal School" has changed to "Parsifal--A
Waldorf School." The article by a representative of the "Interim
Leadership Group" says:
"Led by AWSNA consultant Antje Ghaznavi we are brought to reorient
our school's destiny in regard to its language policy. The temporary
name change from *Ecole Parsifal School* to *Parsifal--A Waldorf
School* makes this profound transformation visible to our community.
"Our enrolment dropped from 104 to 74 as a result of our
metamorphosis. We are currently at 84 students, which is very
encouraging. We have two split-grade classes and an almost entirely
new faculty.
"...Parsifal--A Waldorf School is strengthening its foundation with a
renewed deep and strong committment to the living education provided
through anthroposophical insight."
Hmm, methinks there's a story here that isn't being told. An "almost
entirely new faculty," and a quarter of the students leave. Anybody
know what really happened?
-Dan Dugan
FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 09:22:50 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Waldorf Education and Anthroposophy I, Shakespeare
on 11/11/02 12:13 AM, Dan Dugan at dan dandugan.com wrote:
) Shakespeare was certainly hip to the popular astrology/occultism of
) his time, but that doesn't make him a Rosicrucian. What does, in your
) view?
My reading about the period of time just before science separated from
angelogy, a period when alliances were formed to counteract the Catholic
League. I think Francis Yate's compelling history of "The Rosicrucian
Enlightenment" in which she documents the brief Hermetic golden age inspired
by the Rosicrucian movement is convincing. I believe that there was such a
thing as a Rosicrucian movement and that Shakespeare played a role. He
certainly had important relationships with some of the main players. The
only "snag" is that Christian Rosenkreutz never actually lived and so one
could argue that there couldn't have been Rosicrucians at all. But since
we're talking about religion and consequently faith, I think one can argue
that there was indeed such a movement. Had Shakespeare lived today, I
sincerely doubt that he would have been a member of AMORC or Anthroposophy,
he was just a man of his time. We don't know that much about the actual
person "Shakespeare", but we have his work which does reflect that period of
time. He certainly was brilliant which makes me think he would have scoffed
at Steiner's ramblings and "artistic" vision. I don't think Shakespeare went
around claiming to be a Rosicrucian, he was just a product of his times. I'm
actually quite fond of the old Rosicrucians, there is a rather sweet
quaintness to their work and that period when the early scientists were
emerging with their charts, etchings and peculiar worldviews. Had they lived
today, I believe they would be more like the scientists of today. I
certainly don't see Max Heindel or Steiner as a true reflection of the older
movement.
A good question to ask - "Was Steiner's Anthroposophy a continuation of the
Rosicrucian Movement? You could argue yes and no. Helmut Zanders doesn't
place much emphasis on the Rosicrucian connection, he sees Anthroposophy as
a schism of Theosophy, which is really how I see it...but there is that
other influence. All in all, I think it's best to call Anthroposophy,
"Anthroposophy".
"Steiner's fiction: "In the year 1459, a lofty, spiritual Individuality,
incarnate in the human personality who bears in the world the name Christian
Rosenkreutz, appeared as the teacher, to begin with of a small circle of
initiated pupils. In the year 1459, within a strictly secluded spiritual
Brotherhood, the Fraternis Roseae Crucis, Christian Rosenkreutz was raised
to the rank of Eques lapidis aurei; Knight of the Golden Stone....The
exalted Individuality who lived on the physical plane in the personality of
Christian Rosenkreutz worked as leader and teacher of the Rosicrucian stream
again and again in the same body, as occultism puts it. The meaning of the
expression "again and again in the same body" will also be explained when we
come to speak of the destiny of the human being after death.
Until far into the eighteenth century, the wisdom of which we are here
speaking was preserved within a strictly secret brotherhood, bound by
inviolate rules which separated its members from the exoteric world" (Rudolf
Steiner, Theosophy of the Rosicrucian, Rudolf Steiner Press, London. Reprint
1981, p 8).
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 09:33:43 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Heindel
on 11/10/02 2:21 PM, Klaudia at klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com wrote:
) Klaudia:
) Max Heindel was part of German royal family and his real name was Carl
) Louis Von Grasshoff.
Sharon: Interesting.
) Max listened Doctor Steiner's lectures. According to some sources Max
) lived together with Doctor Steiner, but I son't know is it true or not.
Sharon: I want to know!
) Max Heindel returned USA and published Steiner's lectures of Rosicrucian
) Cosmo-Conceptions telling that those were his own. Maybe Steiner sent
) him or maybe not.
) Anyway Steiner and his followers were very angry for Max Heindel for
) stealing of Steiner's knowledge.
Sharon: I hadn't heard that they were cross with him! (G)
) Heindel's book "Rosicrucian Cosmo-Conceptions" is marvellous. If Steiner
) published it, it is written much more complicately to read. Now it is
) quite easy to read. It can be read (or loaded) at www.
Sharon: I agree that that book is marvelous. I especially love the drawing
of how the body will be (G). Dan and I both think it's about 90-95% pure
Steiner, what do you say?
)
)
) Here is quote from rosicrucian page, where the name of Doctor Steiner is
) not mentioned at all. Maybe he was mentioned as the "candidate of 1905"
Sharon: Thanks , Peter Z showed me that. I have this hunch...(G)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 18:01:22 +0000
From: Klaudia (klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Heindel
mysplum wrote:
) ) Klaudia:
) ) Max Heindel was part of German royal family and his real name was Carl
) ) Louis Von Grasshoff.
)
) Sharon: Interesting.
)
Klaudia: Actually his father was member of German royal family and his
mother was noble danish lady. He was born in Denmark.
)
) Sharon: I agree that that book is marvelous. I especially love the
) drawing
) of how the body will be (G). Dan and I both think it's about 90-95% pure
) Steiner, what do you say?
) )
Klaudia:
I have not read it fully, but what I've read is 100 % Steiner.
Do You remember in which chapter that drawing is shown?
I participated rosicrucian lecture (2 hours) where that book was as the
subject. All those big and small balls (or circulars) were very clearly
explained.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 13:59:57 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Waldorf Education and Anthroposophy I, Shakespeare
Sharon: I said "Waldorf teaches Shakespeare because it's supposedly coded,
just as they teach coded fairy tales". Then Ray answered:
"Well now, that's interesting. I really don't see how students would be
able to assimulate this kind of information unless it was intended to
be accessed at a later date, an awakening of knowledge unknown by it's
possessor. What are your sources?"
I told Ray some of my sources and with the next posts I make, I hope to show
that basically what Ray says above is right. I am trying to prove that
Shakespeare is taught as an esoteric initiation, as a spiritual preparation.
That Steiner believed Shakespeare's work was occult-coded. I agree with
Ray's conclusions above, and so would, I believe, Steiner... See what you
think...(first a little background)...
Steiner: "Goethe's spirit can be linked inwardly to the spirit of
Shakespeare. For Goethe himself described quite intimately how he allowed
Shakespeare's spirit to work on him. Goethe liked to receive Shakespeare,
not by seeing his plays acted on stage, but by having them read to him in
simple, quiet recitation. He would sit listening - his eyes closed - lifting
himself out of the sphere of everyday intellectual life and sinking deeply
into the fullness of his inner humanity. Such was the way in which Goethe
wanted the Shakespearean spirit to enter into him.
In Dornach, we are endeavoring to work in the spirit of Goethe. The High
School of Spiritual Science there, which has been founded by the
anthroposophical world movement, has been given the name of the Goetheanum -
not because I personally wished it so but above all (and this can be
emphasized here) on account of the wishes of our English friends - because
the Goethean spirit is to be cultivated in Dornach. At the Goetheanum, we
are cultivating a direction in spiritual life that leads us to a definite
understanding of new ideals of human education. We have been able to apply
those ideals in practice at the Waldorf school in Stuttgart - a school
closely linked to the high school of spiritual science in Dornach, to the
Goetheanum...I might perhaps be permitted to say a few words about the kind
of spiritual knowledge that forms the background of the educational
practices of the Waldorf school and that stems from the anthroposophical
science being cultivated in Dornach". (204-205).
"If we wish to judge the Dornach methods soundly, we must be ready to accept
the fact that a really new direction in humanity's mental and spiritual life
of humanity is being cultivated there. I would like to describe what we are
doing by a word that is, I know, still very alarming to some people,
inasmuch as all things of a supersensible nature do, after all, still alarm
many people today. Nevertheless, I would like to speak this word openly and
without reservations. The method applied in Dornach can be designated as
"exact clairvoyance". It is not clairvoyance in the usual sense....It is a
clairvoyance that we apply consciously in matters of everyday life, a
clairvoyance that awakens genuine faculties of knowledge and perception in
the human soul. By these faculties, one becomes able to see beyond the
things of the external world that have set their stamp on the civilization
of the last three or four centuries. One becomes able to perceive the
supersensible reality underlying the whole universe, all creation, and,
above all, human nature.
Acquiring this kind of exact clairvoyance by a strictly methodical process,
we become able to recognize and know what lives within us as a spiritual,
supersensible reality between birth and death. When we are born into the
world as little children, we appear to be only a physical organism. In
reality - modern science might dispute it but this can become an absolute
certainty by means of exact clairvoyance - a supersensible organism
permeates the physical organism. It is an "organism of formative forces". It
consists simply of a configuration of forces - forces, however that work
inwardly" (206).
What lives in Shakespeare works into the soul and mind of the child, and
becomes in the child a strong impelling force." (212)
)Waldorf Education and Anthroposophy. 1 Public Lectures 1921-22. Foundations
of Waldorf Education. Anthroposophic Press 1995. lectures from 1921-22).
Sharon: Digest that...lots more coming your way. Key words, "exact
clairvoyance".
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 14:15:27 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Heindel
on 11/11/02 10:01 AM, Klaudia at klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com wrote:
)))
) Klaudia:
) I have not read it fully, but what I've read is 100 % Steiner.
) Do You remember in which chapter that drawing is shown?
) I participated rosicrucian lecture (2 hours) where that book was as the
) subject. All those big and small balls (or circulars) were very clearly
) explained.
Sharon: No, I just remember a really "quaint" drawing (read deformed) of a
spiritually advanced person doing a sort of "backwards flip", curved in a
circle with tummy facing outwards and arms meeting feet. This is one reason
I didn't think it was 100% Steiner. Steiner's prophetic future bodies are
far more interesting... what with the area around the nose growing wings and
all !! (G) Also a foreseen larynx that gives birth by speaking, a plant-like
body with a spirit hovering above, etc, etc! The university library in these
parts has Heindel's book, in fact I showed my teacher that book because it
was through his class that I learned about the Heindel-Steiner connection. I
**hated** to return it. (G) Need to go check it out again.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 11:07:21 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf Education and Anthroposophy I, Shakespeare
DAN
) ) Shakespeare was certainly hip to the popular astrology/occultism of
)) his time, but that doesn't make him a Rosicrucian. What does, in your
)) view?
SHARON
)I believe that there was such a
)thing as a Rosicrucian movement
Agreed.
)and that Shakespeare played a role. He
)certainly had important relationships with some of the main players.
I'm skeptical about his "role." What was it?
)The
)only "snag" is that Christian Rosenkreutz never actually lived and so one
)could argue that there couldn't have been Rosicrucians at all. But since
)we're talking about religion and consequently faith, I think one can argue
)that there was indeed such a movement.
Agreed.
)Had Shakespeare lived today, I
)sincerely doubt that he would have been a member of AMORC or Anthroposophy,
)he was just a man of his time. We don't know that much about the actual
)person "Shakespeare", but we have his work which does reflect that period of
)time. He certainly was brilliant which makes me think he would have scoffed
)at Steiner's ramblings and "artistic" vision. I don't think Shakespeare went
)around claiming to be a Rosicrucian, he was just a product of his times.
That's just my point. You can't say he was a Rosicrucian if he didn't
think he was one. You could say "influenced by Rosicrucian thought."
)I'm
)actually quite fond of the old Rosicrucians, there is a rather sweet
)quaintness to their work and that period when the early scientists were
)emerging with their charts, etchings and peculiar worldviews. Had they lived
)today, I believe they would be more like the scientists of today. I
)certainly don't see Max Heindel or Steiner as a true reflection of the older
)movement.
)
)A good question to ask - "Was Steiner's Anthroposophy a continuation of the
)Rosicrucian Movement? You could argue yes and no. Helmut Zanders doesn't
)place much emphasis on the Rosicrucian connection, he sees Anthroposophy as
)a schism of Theosophy, which is really how I see it...but there is that
)other influence. All in all, I think it's best to call Anthroposophy,
)"Anthroposophy".
A continuation in spirit, perhaps. Steiner's claim to be the
culmination of Rosicrucianism is a pose, his attempt to claim a
historical tradition as his own.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 10:59:12 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf school in Ottawa changes from bilingual
Nicole Foss, you wrote,
)As I understand it from having spoken to some of the parents who
)left (and then came to our school), several parents set up a safety
)committee in response to concerns, and letters, which presumably did
)not lead to satisfactory responses, were written to a variety of
)sources requesting explanation and clarification. I believe a
)particular teacher was the primary focus of the difficulties. He
)left and many of the rest of the faculty left as well (I don't know
)why the others left)...
I suppose this teacher is now employed at another Waldorf school.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:13:48 +0000
From: Klaudia (klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Heindel, future human form
mysplum wrote:
)
) Sharon: No, I just remember a really "quaint" drawing (read deformed) of
) a
) spiritually advanced person doing a sort of "backwards flip", curved in
) a
) circle with tummy facing outwards and arms meeting feet.
Klaudia:
No need to go back to library. Here is the link to book
"The Rosicrucian Cosmo-Conception (or Mystic Christianity)
An Elementary Treatise Upon Man's Past Evolution, Present Constitution
and Future Development
By
Max Heindel":
http://www.rosicrucianfellowship.org/rcc/rcceng00.htm
"Bodies are always found to suit the purpose they are made to serve,
hence the dense bodies of the Seven Planetary Spirits are spherical,
that form being best adapted to the enormous velocity with which they
travel through space. The Earth, for instance, travels about 66,000
miles per hour in its orbit.
Man's body had a different shape in the past from that of the
present, and from that which it will have in the future. During
involution it was approximately spherical, as it still is during
ante-natal life, because the intra-uterine development is a
recapitulation of past stages of evolution. At that stage the organism
developed the sphere, because during involution man's energies were
directed inward, upon the building of its own vehicles, as the embryo
develops within the sphere of the uterus.
Man's dense and vital bodies have straightened , but his higher
vehicles still retain their ovoid form. In the dense body, the
coordinating and governing brain is situated at one extremity. This is
the most unfavorable position for such an organ. Too long a time is
required for impulses to travel from one extremity to the other--from
the brain to the feet, or for impacts on the feet to reach the brain. In
cases of burns, for instance, science has demonstrated that valuable
time is lost, the skin being blistered before a message can be carried
from the injured place to the brain and back again.
This inefficiency would be greatly lessened if the brain were in the
center of the body. Sensations and the responses thereto could be more
quickly received and transmitted. In the spherical planets the Planetary
Spirit directs from the center the movements of its vehicle. In future
man will bend over, as shown in diagram 12. He will become a sphere,
directing his energies outward because a spherical form affords the
greatest facility for motion in all directions, and indeed, for
combination of simultaneous motions.
The Rosicrucian Cosmo-Conception teaches that there is a further
evolution in store for planets."
That is told at page:
http://www.rosicrucian.com/rcc/rcceng11.htm
And here is link to Manís form of body:
http://www.rosicrucian.com/images/rccen012.gif
Form seems also to me that they are not same as Steiner imagined.
At same pages there is also interesting link about
The Educational Value of Astrology:
http://www.rosicrucianfellowship.org/zineen/magen322.htm
How much there are similarities to astrology at Waldorf Schools. Exact
time of birth (not only birth day) is asked from Waldorf-parents. That
is used to some astrological purpose.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 12:08:05 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Veterans Day/Martinmas
November 11 always reminds me of what went on a few years ago this
day at Yuba River School, one of the schools that PLANS is suing.
Veterans Day is a big event in Nevada City where the school is, with
the town turning out for a big parade. At the Waldorf charter school,
however, they had a Martinmas festival!
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 17:36:58 -0500
From: "Nicole Foss" (nmfoss hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf arguments against homeschooling
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Dan Dugan wrote:
In the newsletter of the Waldorf School Association of Ontario,
http://www.waldorf.ca/Other/spring2002.pdf
there's a brief article announcing a Waldorf conference on
homeschooling, paired with a longer article by Mel Belenson, a
teacher at the Ottawa Waldorf School. Belenson says that there may be
valid reasons for wanting to homeschool, like there being no school
nearby, the school being full, or a disability that prevents
attendance. "It is difficult to imagine any other legitimate reason
for choosing home-schooling over enrolling in a Waldorf school."
Belenson argues "Does the parent feel he or she can do it better than
the professionals who are teaching daily in the classroom? ... Does
not the striving of the individuals who are responsible for the
classroom have any validity? ... Waldorf education is primarily a
social education. The origins of the first Waldorf school, and the
philosophical underpinnings of the education, attest to that [that
the school is to foster the Threefold Social Order]. The continuing
transformations of family life attest to that [homeschoolers can't
have their lifestyles controlled by the faculty]. Self-centered
isolation and individualization of children at an early age are not
in keeping with the spirit of Waldorf education [God forbid children
should be individualized]."
"It is hardly likely that the relationship between a parent and a
child can carry the same impact as does that between the class
teacher and the child."
"...Home-schooling that makes use of Waldorf methods cannot be true
Waldorf education. Support and encouragement of so-called Waldorf
home-schooling on the part of existing schools, organizations,
internet websites, publications, etc. is not a good thing."
Nicole:
I know Mr Belenson very well. Suffice it to say that we had a
monumental clash of personalities, and that many others have had a
similar experience. I'm tempted to vent, but will restrain myself
(with great difficulty).
I can think of plenty of reasons why a parent might chose to
homeschool rather than send their kids to the local Waldorf school.
Parents certainly can do the job better than some of the
'professionals', and striving in the classroom is not enough unless
one also produces results. The striving of some individuals seems to
be much more successful than that of others.
Parents may also feel that, in working independently, they can strike
a balance between the positive aspects of Waldorf and the real world
that their children still have to live in. School control freakery
and meddling in people's private lives can be a huge source of
resentment, and some teachers are more prone to it than others. Some
consider it their right to undermine parental judgment calls (like a
parent's decision to send their child for outside tutoring) in front
of the children, while being adamant that parents must never
undermine the teacher's authority by contradicting what comes home
from school. Such behaviour is arrogant and insufferable, and
represents a very good reason why parents might avoid a particular
school. Having a child schooled in a social environment is generally
a good thing, but not if it means subjecting a child to eight years
with an overbearing or incapable teacher. As for the impact of the
relationship between teacher and child, that impact ca!
n be very positive and nurturing with the right teacher, but the
wrong one can utterly destroy a child's self-confidence.
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Dugan
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 10:27 PM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Waldorf arguments against homeschooling
In the newsletter of the Waldorf School Association of Ontario,
http://www.waldorf.ca/Other/spring2002.pdf
there's a brief article announcing a Waldorf conference on
homeschooling, paired with a longer article by Mel Belenson, a
teacher at the Ottawa Waldorf School. Belenson says that there may be
valid reasons for wanting to homeschool, like there being no school
nearby, the school being full, or a disability that prevents
attendance. "It is difficult to imagine any other legitimate reason
for choosing home-schooling over enrolling in a Waldorf school."
Belenson argues "Does the parent feel he or she can do it better than
the professionals who are teaching daily in the classroom? ... Does
not the striving of the individuals who are responsible for the
classroom have any validity? ... Waldorf education is primarily a
social education. The origins of the first Waldorf school, and the
philosophical underpinnings of the education, attest to that [that
the school is to foster the Threefold Social Order]. The continuing
transformations of family life attest to that [homeschoolers can't
have their lifestyles controlled by the faculty]. Self-centered
isolation and individualization of children at an early age are not
in keeping with the spirit of Waldorf education [God forbid children
should be individualized]."
"It is hardly likely that the relationship between a parent and a
child can carry the same impact as does that between the class
teacher and the child."
"...Home-schooling that makes use of Waldorf methods cannot be true
Waldorf education. Support and encouragement of so-called Waldorf
home-schooling on the part of existing schools, organizations,
internet websites, publications, etc. is not a good thing."
The newsletter promises to publish correspondence on the subject.
-Dan Dugan
FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 16:53:51 -0600
From: Brad Martin (bradmartin sbcglobal.net)
Subject: Re: Waldorf
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I trust the lady in 4th grade is the good one.
B
Parents may also feel that, in working independently, they can
strike a balance between the positive aspects of Waldorf and the real
world that their children still have to live in. School control
freakery and meddling in people's private lives can be a huge source
of resentment, and some teachers are more prone to it than others.
Some consider it their right to undermine parental judgment calls
(like a parent's decision to send their child for outside tutoring)
in front of the children, while being adamant that parents must never
undermine the teacher's authority by contradicting what comes home
from school. Such behaviour is arrogant and insufferable, and
represents a very good reason why parents might avoid a particular
school. Having a child schooled in a social environment is generally
a good thing, but not if it means subjecting a child to eight years
with an overbearing or incapable teacher. As for the impact of the
relationship between teacher and child, that impact !
can be very positive and nurturing with the right teacher, but the
wrong one can utterly destroy a child's self-confidence.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 16:01:36 -0800
From: Maura Mikulec (Maura Mikulec.com)
Subject: Stunted imagination
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Hi all. Many of you were helpful when I was considering enrolling my son in
a „Waldorf-inspired¾ charter school. Now I have another question, not so
imperative, and mainly to satisfy my curiosity.
My son presently attends a „Waldorf-inspired¾ pre-school program. It is run
by a Christian woman who really just employs some Waldorfy methods, like
watercoloring wet on wet, telling stories versus reading, creating an
aesthetically appealing environment, celebrating the festivals and seasons,
etc.. She learned about Waldorf just doing her own reading, and I believe
she is truly ignorant of all the „stuff¾ that is behind it. She does,
however, get help (mentoring? Oh no!) from someone who I believe is a
trained Waldorf teacher. She recently said something to me about my son
that I found interesting, and thought you all might have comments on.
She commented that my son didn¼t seem to have a very good imagination, that
he participates in all the role playing, but usually in the role of
providing information like „cowboys do this and such¾, and organizing the
play of others. My son is very bright, and does seem pretty intellectual
for his age; people do comment on this. Other people, though, think he has
a good imagination, and I think he¼s fine in that regard too, just maybe not
as much as girls and the more sensitive type of boys. (He¼s one of those
„all boy¾ boys.) The teacher commented that one of the things she learned
„from Waldorf¾, and with which she instinctually agrees, is that if a child
overdevelops his intellect, it will be at the expense of his imagination.
The teacher went on to mention how an underdeveloped imagination can affect
his later learning ‚ she said that her son, similar in ways to mine, would
have an idea of how something ought to work, and then be unable to try other
things if it didn¼t work as he expected.
What do you all think of this issue of the imagination being so
all-important? Is there something sinisterly Steiner behind this? Does
this kind of thinking deny typical differences in children in terms of their
strengths and the different ways people think? I know, for example, that
I¼m more intellectual, whereas my husband is creative and not so grounded as
I. Doesn¼t each have it¼s merit? I wonder if there¼s something to say to
my son¼s teacher about this? She seems to think I ought to try to nurture
his imagination more, and get him out of his head. (We do not, by the way,
endeavor to teach my son anything, except that about which he asks. He is
just naturally „a thinker.¾) I know you all are not child development
experts, but I¼m very interested to hear your points of view. This whole
thing struck me as one of those things that you all are going to say, „Oh,
we¼ve heard this before, many times....¾
Thanks for sharing your thoughts,
Maura
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 19:56:34 -0500
From: "Nicole Foss" (nmfoss hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf
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Brad wrote:
I trust the lady in 4th grade is the good one.
Nicole:
Our 4th grade teacher, who is a lovely person and a good teacher, is
a man. All my children are happy in their classes and are very fond
of their teachers. We wouldn't be at the school if that were not the
case (and we wouldn't be homeschooling either since that option isn't
for everyone). We have been very lucky with our children's teachers
and I think the continuity will be good for them, but it is easy to
imagine a teacher and child who didn't get on making each others
lives miserable for eight years. I didn't go to a Waldorf school
myself, but I can imagine what eight years in the class of some of
the teachers I had would have been like.
What I object to is the arrogant assumption in that article that
teachers automatically know better than parents what is right for
their child in all spheres of life. Parents are usually happy to work
with teachers for the benefit of the child, but must be treated as
equals who also have ideas and principles of value, not looked down
upon as people who have nothing to offer merely because they are not
devotees of Steiner. Most teachers, including ours, are good at this,
but I have met some who are not. Nothing annoys parents more than
control freakery.
Sometimes a school is the right place for a child, and in other cases
the parent can do a better job. It's up to the parent to make that
decision, and I think that having Waldorf homeschooling materials
made available to parents gives them a valuable additional option.
----- Original Message -----
From: Brad Martin
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 5:59 PM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Re: Waldorf
I trust the lady in 4th grade is the good one.
B
Parents may also feel that, in working independently, they can strike
a balance between the positive aspects of Waldorf and the real world
that their children still have to live in. School control freakery
and meddling in people's private lives can be a huge source of
resentment, and some teachers are more prone to it than others. Some
consider it their right to undermine parental judgment calls (like a
parent's decision to send their child for outside tutoring) in front
of the children, while being adamant that parents must never
undermine the teacher's authority by contradicting what comes home
from school. Such behaviour is arrogant and insufferable, and
represents a very good reason why parents might avoid a particular
school. Having a child schooled in a social environment is generally
a good thing, but not if it means subjecting a child to eight years
with an overbearing or incapable teacher. As for the impact of the
relationship between teacher and child, that impact ca!
n be very positive and nurturing with the right teacher, but the
wrong one can utterly destroy a child's self-confidence.
REE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 19:31:46 -0600
From: Brad Martin (bradmartin sbcglobal.net)
Subject: Re: Waldorf
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(excerpt)
Our 4th grade teacher, who is a lovely person and a good teacher, is
a man. All my children are happy in their classes and are very fond
of their teachers. We wouldn't be at the school if that were not the
case ----- Nicole
Brad:
Thanks for the response.
Actually, that was an excerpt I was sending to my sister.
I had hit reply w/o changing address.
My niece started Waldorf recently.
Historically, I have been led to believe that Montessori
and Waldorf were more advanced schooling for the younger
years.
I have been doing some surfing on the subject and the
Waldorf Critics is one of the responses.
In my personal inquiry over the years
into various minds in Western Civilization,
one comes to Goethe, and then Steiner, among many.
That was a while back but I remember taking some good
from Steiner and dismissing the 'nonsense'. Atlantis, et al.
One of the important points made on this line is the luck
of the draw if you happened to catch a bad teacher.
Given the WE presence in the world, surely they can't
all be bad teachers.
I have no doubt there could be some aging Birkenstocker
who might teach the 'nonsense'.
However, I have a hard time believing that it is the strategy
of the national organization of Waldorf Schooling to deliberately
teach the 'nonsense' that this site speaks a great deal about.
I will be keeping close touch and will be concerned if this
is, in fact, the case.
Bad science, etc., that Dan Dugan refers to.
I have done some reading of the archives and certainly a great
deal has been said on both sides, some extraordinarily
well thought out comments.
Regards,
Brad
Brad wrote:
I trust the lady in 4th grade is the good one.
Nicole:
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 21:29:27 -0500
From: "Nicole Foss" (nmfoss hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Stunted imagination
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Maura wrote:
The teacher commented that one of the things she learned ’Äúfrom
Waldorf’Äù, and with which she instinctually agrees, is that if a
child overdevelops his intellect, it will be at the expense of his
imagination. The teacher went on to mention how an underdeveloped
imagination can affect his later learning ’Äì she said that her son,
similar in ways to mine, would have an idea of how something ought to
work, and then be unable to try other things if it didn’Äôt work as
he expected.
Nicole:
I don't see any reason why the two shouldn't develop in tandem,
provided both are encouraged. My (nearly 10 year old) son is an
intellectual abstract thinker who has watched the news for years and
is interested in politics and current events (I'm sure his Waldorf
teacher disapproves), and yet is extremely imaginative. He is interested
in things presented in a factual context, but much more so if the
facts and messages are woven into a story and presented indirectly.
He retains information much better that way as it seems to 'live' for
him. Fortunately, his teacher is a superb story-teller.
Imagination is a wonderful thing and a powerful tool when harnessed
for learning. I do think too much emphasis on cold, hard facts dulls
a child's interest in the world around them (which is not to say that
facts should be avoided, just that a creative approach enhances their
impact). Children learn best when they really connect with the
material they're working with. Perhaps a well developed imagination
in a young child can facilitate lateral thinking later in life. In
our case we'll have to wait and see.
REE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 22:00:18 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters worldnet.att.net)
Subject: Re: Stunted imagination
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Maura wrote:
My son presently attends a ìWaldorf-inspiredî pre-school program.
It is run by a Christian woman who really just employs some Waldorfy
methods, like watercoloring wet on wet, telling stories versus
reading, creating an aesthetically appealing environment, celebrating
the festivals and seasons, etc.. She learned about Waldorf just
doing her own reading, and I believe she is truly ignorant of all the
ìstuffî that is behind it. She does, however, get help (mentoring?
Oh no!) from someone who I believe is a trained Waldorf teacher.
Ah! I was not going to comment on the Waldorf homeschooling
quote, from the guy unabashedly saying homeschooling sucks and that
the teacher-child relationship is so much more important than the
parent-child relationship . . . but here it is again. Maura, AWSNA is
on a quest, I believe, to get hold of this spiraling out of control
homeschooling thing, all these well-intentioned people doing a little
bit o' Waldorf at home and running little informal programs like
this. This is the problem with "Waldorf-inspired." Waldorf
officialdom doesn't like it. At first it is "support" and "resources"
and "mentoring" but the agenda is control, and they're hoping, I
believe, to make these people cease and desist from calling
themselves any stripe of "Waldorf" unless they get with an
AWSNA-approved program, buckle under and do it right
(anthroposophically).
Your Christian lady doing a little Waldorf thing in her house is
probably great, she probably really does just like some Waldorf
methods, but that damn mentoring, that's the problem, it'll either
ruin her or shut her gig down. Unless she decides to ignore her
mentor, this won't be the last time you'll get this kind of
increasingly critical comment about your parenting.
She commented that my son didnít seem to have a very good imagination,
Ack! They're the ones lacking imagination. (Again, I don't mean
your son's teacher, probably - she sounds like she is just starting
to parrot what this "mentor" is feeding her, unfortunately.) Don't
buy this junk. They have a specific, and quite limited, definition of
what "imaginative play" looks like. It's ironic. If your child
doesn't do "imaginative play" the way he's supposed to, they can't
deal with it. It's *their* lack of imagination. He's supposed to
enact roles from the stories the teacher tells. If he has his own
interests, or is "in his head," you're never going to hear the end of
it. Why shouldn't he be in his own head? Think about it this
statement, they want him out of his own head?
that he participates in all the role playing, but usually in the
role of providing information like ìcowboys do this and suchî, and
organizing the play of others.
All of which is part of creative play. It takes a very talented
individual to organize others. Providing information is a social
role, if it is one he is good at, encourage it.
What do you all think of this issue of the imagination being so
all-important? Is there something sinisterly Steiner behind this?
No - this is just well-intentioned Waldorf teachers and the party
line. They believe it. The system is rigid, the system was invented
by someone who did not like or even know many children, the system
does not recognize the individual differences among children, and the
teachers keep trying to make the kids fit into their system, and they
figure something is wrong with the kid who does not want to reenact
the story the teacher has just told. The problem is the teacher's
inflexibility, her own lack of resources, and inadequate training,
in addressing different children with different needs.
(and yes, we've heard this many, many times before. I was a
teaching aide and sat through many parent/teacher conferences where
the parents were told just want you've been told. Don't worry about
your son on this advice - they tell almost all the parents the same
thing. They believe almost all children today are "in their heads"
and have no imagination. They don't recognize imagination when they
see it.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 22:06:54 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters worldnet.att.net)
Subject: Re: Waldorf
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Brad wrote:
)Given the WE presence in the world, surely they can't
)all be bad teachers.
No certainly not. I know very talented Waldorf teachers. In my
experience they leave the system, because there is no room for their
talents. A talented teacher isn't going to be constrained by a
particular ideology when it isn't working, and a talented teacher
soon sees that much of the rigmarole and ritual in the Waldorf school
day makes children crazy. This teacher just drops that stuff and does
her own thing, and she can't advance in her career, she can't become
a master teacher in Waldorf, unless she does all-Steiner-all-the-time.
)I have no doubt there could be some aging Birkenstocker
)who might teach the 'nonsense'.
)However, I have a hard time believing that it is the strategy
)of the national organization of Waldorf Schooling to deliberately
)teach the 'nonsense' that this site speaks a great deal about.
Waldorf teachers are well-intentioned and believe their system is
the best way for children to learn. But the training is inadequate
and unless they have had other training as well, they may not even
recognize what is "nonsense" from Steiner and what is academically
sound. Unfortunately the "nonsense" is in fact all over Waldorf
lesson books.
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 23:56:41 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Stunted imagination
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Stunted imaginationMaura wrote:
My son is very bright, and does seem pretty intellectual for his
age; people do comment on this. Other people, though, think he has a
good imagination, and I think he's fine in that regard too, just
maybe not as much as girls and the more sensitive type of boys.
(He's one of those "all boy" boys.) The teacher commented that one
of the things she learned "from Waldorf", and with which she
instinctually agrees, is that if a child overdevelops his intellect,
it will be at the expense of his imagination. The teacher went on to
mention how an underdeveloped imagination can affect his later
learning - she said that her son, similar in ways to mine, would have
an idea of how something ought to work, and then be unable to try
other things if it didn't work as he expected.
Walden: "An underdeveloped imagination...?" And he is supposed to develop an imagination
in the rigid structure of a Waldorf environment? Classic. I was
speaking about this with my son today. He was in Waldorf for many
years. I have learned to listen to him as he tells me about Waldorf.
I only research the subject - he lived it. He knows all about
Waldorf.
There is no room for imagination. Children copy from the teacher.
The teacher is always right. Always. Waldorf is not about freedom -
especially when it comes to imagination -as most people understand
that term. Waldorf "imagination" involves the child being able to
form an "image" of exactly what the teacher wants that image to be.
Story telling is all about children having the same image - this is
how they grow spiritually/anthroposophically. This has nothing to do
with the child *using* her/his imagination the way most people would
try to *use* their imaginations. It is not about freeing the mind
and letting it *imagine.* It is about wrapping the mind around the
teacher's painted picture during the story/play. Control - not
Freedom.
Maura wrote:
What do you all think of this issue of the imagination being so all-important?
Walden: I think imagination is very important. I think *thinking*
is very important. I think respect for the child is very important.
Let the child BE.
I strongly recommend reading the post by Dan Dugan "children and
choices" as it speaks to your concerns. Critics are not making this
up - read what various Waldorf experts have to say. They know their
Steiner and you (hopefully) will understand the Waldorf approach by
reading views like those in that post. It really boils down to
this: The child has not fully incarnated and must be programmed by
Anthroposophists.
Maura wrote:Is there something sinisterly Steiner behind this? Does
this kind of thinking deny typical differences in children in terms
of their strengths and the different ways people think?
Walden: "Sinisterly Steiner?" Good line - lol.Seriously, It is a
particular view of education and children I do not agree with. This
view is not offered to parents until they take the time to look under
the silk veil. Remember - Steiner was not an educator nor a parent.
He was a mystic.
Maura wrote:She seems to think I ought to try to nurture his
imagination more, and get him out of his head.
Walden: I echo Diana here - "get him out of his head?" It is *HIS*
head. Respect it. Sure, play games, tell stories together, invent
plays, etc. Leave the poor kid's head alone!
Maura wrote:(We do not, by the way, endeavor to teach my son
anything, except that about which he asks. He is just naturally "a
thinker.")
Walden: Well, there you go. He is a thinker. And he asks
questions. How long will he last in Waldorf? It sounds like you
care a great deal about your son and what he is going through. Maybe
it is time to rethink your choice of schools? I wish you all the
best.
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 873
-- Topica Digest --
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------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 08:25:37 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Stunted imagination
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Maura wrote:
What do you all think of this issue of the imagination being so
all-important? Is there something sinisterly Steiner behind this?
Sharon: In Steiner's doctrinal vocabulary, "Imagination" means "psychic
sight". He taught that by developing imagination one can learn to see
spiritual beings. (Waldorf does not allow creative self expression in the
early years. Children paint wet-on-wet mandalas and talismans to expose
themselves to color, which Steiner taught is the organ of the spiritual
world. Color (beings) can heal and be seen if you devote yourself to color.
It's an old Rosicrucian thingy.)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 09:49:04 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Stunted imagination
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on 11/11/02 6:29 PM, Nicole Foss at nmfoss hotmail.com wrote:
Imagination is a wonderful thing and a powerful tool when harnessed for
learning. I do think too much emphasis on cold, hard facts dulls a child's
interest in the world around them (which is not to say that facts should be
avoided, just that a creative approach enhances their impact). Children
learn best when they really connect with the material they're working with.
Perhaps a well developed imagination in a young child can facilitate lateral
thinking later in life. In our case we'll have to wait and see.
Sharon: Some of the Waldorf graduates I know can't find jobs because they
dropped out of high school, others I know dropped out of college because
they couldn't hack it, others dropped out of college because they missed
their friends to whom they were so "bonded" that they couldn't make friends
elsewhere, another ran away from home at age 14. Many didn't go to college.
A teacher at the local college in Dornach II asked why Waldorf kids couldn't
write papers...
Although the same can be said about *all* schools, why is it that Waldorf is
not releasing statistics?
Sharon quotes from Waldorf lesson books, if Sharon had wanted to send her
child to an Anthroposophical parochial school where all day, everyday, her
child would be indoctrinated into Anthroposophy, she would have consciously
made that decision. Why exactly would a family of freethinkers choose an
Anthroposophic Sunday school for their child anyway? Because they were duped
by Waldorf who did not present themselves honestly, the school even claimed
to be nonsectarian. Waldorf develops imagination? Absolute rubbish. It is
all about developing Steiner's meaning of the word ie: "psychic sight":
Waldorf pupil: "I will search for the master of greatest might. I will
search for the star of brightest light. I will work to achieve the highest
goal. Courageous and with reverant soul. I will serve.
...my favorite part was abowt the Devil, wen we do the play I want to be the
Devil."
"In September Michael is near, he will help us over come all fear".
"Out of heaven into birth from the stars to the earth I have flown"
"God rules with a lawful might
And out of this home, with heaven's help
From water, fire, air and earth
Is fashioned a house for each soul
To dwell in from the time of birth
The heart is the son which warms man's house"
"...Abraham raplied Yaweh will provide. Soon after thay arived to mount
moria and made a small fire and lade his son a pon it and rased his knife a
bove his head and Isaac's sole fled from his body and Abraham was just about
to plunj the knife in Isaac's chest when miciel stept out of the clowds and
said "Abraham pot down that knife you have proovin yourself werthy".
"The sylphs, salamanders, gnomes and undines are the earth's scribes".
On and on it goes....
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 10:08:21 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Heindel, future human form
on 11/11/02 12:13 PM, Klaudia at klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com wrote:
)
) Klaudia:
) No need to go back to library. Here is the link to book
) "The Rosicrucian Cosmo-Conception (or Mystic Christianity)
) An Elementary Treatise Upon Man's Past Evolution, Present Constitution
) and Future Development
) By
) Max Heindel":
) http://www.rosicrucianfellowship.org/rcc/rcceng00.htm
Sharon: Gee thanks Klaudia. So sweet of you.
) And here is link to Manís form of body:
) http://www.rosicrucian.com/images/rccen012.gif
Sharon: (Crippled with laughter)... Truth be told, yesterday I found the
book on line but after 15 minutes of trying to find this lovely image of
Heindel's prophetic "future man" I gave up. Thanks for that, I needed a good
laugh. Forgot about the other drawing in the womb (G). Too bad I can't find
Steiner's illustrations of future man, would particularly love to see
exactly how the wings will look growing off one's nose area!
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 10:43:00 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Waldorf Education and Anthroposophy I, Shakespeare
on 11/11/02 11:07 AM, Dan Dugan at dan dandugan.com wrote:
) DAN
))) Shakespeare was certainly hip to the popular astrology/occultism of
))) his time, but that doesn't make him a Rosicrucian. What does, in your
))) view?
)
) SHARON
)) I believe that there was such a
)) thing as a Rosicrucian movement
)
) Agreed.
)
)) and that Shakespeare played a role. He
)) certainly had important relationships with some of the main players.
)
) I'm skeptical about his "role." What was it?
Sharon: His role was disseminating "Rosicrucian thought". Somebody e-mailed
me off list and asked if I'd had too much wine (which I hadn't) when I
wrote:
"Stay tuned for some superb quotes from Steiner (I kiss Klaudia)
and a story about princess Elizabeth and the Elector Palatine's wedding,
Lady Elizabeth's men (her company of players), the King's men (Shakespeare's
company) and so much more...."
I meant I plan to tell Francis Yates' history about Princess Elizabeth and
Frederick's wedding of 1613, the Chemical Wedding by Andrea (1616 who is the
guy credited with inventing Christian Rosenkreutz), the Order of the Garter,
Dee's relationship with Elizabeth and Fred, Fludd, etc, etc. Yates credits
Liz and Fred as having started what she termed "The Rosicrucian
Enlightenment". Princess Elizabeth loved theater, had her own troupe.
Shakespeare wrote many plays to entertain her. She was a regular at the
Globe. In a sense, Shakespeare was a "member of the family". Shakespeare's
troupe was called "the King's Men", the King was Elizabeth's dad. I'll tell
the story when I get a moment, (have to read the book again to get
refreshed) probably next week I'll get to posting. (Busy).
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 11:16:26 -0500
From: Al's stuff (alice.javanet rcn.com)
Subject: Re: Stunted imagination
) This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
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on 11/12/02 12:49 PM, mysplum at mysplum earthlink.net wrote:
on 11/11/02 6:29 PM, Nicole Foss at nmfoss hotmail.com wrote:
Imagination is a wonderful thing and a powerful tool when harnessed for
learning. I do think too much emphasis on cold, hard facts dulls a child's
interest in the world around them (which is not to say that facts should be
avoided, just that a creative approach enhances their impact). Children
learn best when they really connect with the material they're working with.
Perhaps a well developed imagination in a young child can facilitate lateral
thinking later in life. In our case we'll have to wait and see.
)many snips(
Alice here:
My nine-year old son, current Montessori student, former 2plus years at W.
school (his big sister, nine years there..) lost a tooth last night. He was
completely convinced and thrilled at the tooth fairy 's kind attention and
gifts this morning.
Despite the montessori emphasis on science and cognition, the gift of
magical thinking is still powerful in this age group.
He was thrilled to be somehow "blessed" by this magical being..
Personally, I think this is a sacred duty of parenting...to keep this alive
as long as possible.. a child's personal connection to certain powers
outside themselves.
It is not the same, however, as W. theory on otherwordly thinking..it is
psychological support for my children... another reassurance and connection
to a benevolent influence outside themselves. NOT literal belief in the
world of fairies and intrusion into trying to pry into the spirit world.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 11:47:20 -0500
From: "Nicole Foss" (nmfoss hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Stunted imagination
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Sharon wrote:
Some of the Waldorf graduates I know can't find jobs because they
dropped out of high school, others I know dropped out of college
because they couldn't hack it, others dropped out of college because
they missed their friends to whom they were so "bonded" that they
couldn't make friends elsewhere, another ran away from home at age
14. Many didn't go to college. A teacher at the local college in
Dornach II asked why Waldorf kids couldn't write papers...
Nicole: I know many wonderfully gifted, successful and well-adjusted
Waldorf graduates, and also some who are struggling. I think it
critically depends on who the child has for a teacher. I have never
seen a better teacher anywhere than the one my daughter has. I have
spent a great deal of time assisting in his class and therefore know
what he teaches and how he teaches it.
Sharon wrote:
Why exactly would a family of freethinkers choose an Anthroposophic
Sunday school for their child anyway? Because they were duped by
Waldorf who did not present themselves honestly, the school even
claimed to be nonsectarian. Waldorf develops imagination? Absolute
rubbish.
Nicole: I can only speak from my own experience and that of my
children, who have all benefited from attending their current school.
The school is not perfect and we have several important on-going
issues with it, but the education my children receive there has
helped them to develop imaginatively as human beings. I do not
blindly trust the school. I dislike anthroposophy, which they should
be honest about, and would like to see much more openness and
accountability. Some teachers are less able than others and there
have been problems, but, on the whole, people stay at our school
because there are significant educational benefits for their
children. I take issue far more with the governance structure than I
do with the education provided. If it were nothing but an
anthroposophical Sunday school, we would not be there. I have yet to
find a better local alternative for my children.
REE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 18:25:21 +0000
From: Klaudia (klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Heindel, future human form
mysplum wrote:
)Too bad I can't find
) Steiner's illustrations of future man, would particularly love to see
) exactly how the wings will look growing off one's nose area!
)
Klaudia:
Isn't here any artists to draw that?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 18:35:26 +0000
From: Klaudia (klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com)
Subject: Anthroposophical Christmas Tree
Rudolf Steiner has given instructions, how the christmas tree has to be
decorated. There was planet signs on trunk and 33 pcs of somethings (I
don't remember what)symbolizing 33 years of life of Jesus Christ.
Has anybody seen some drawing about that tree? I know that that tree is
used in many Waldorf Schools and other anthro-places.
Have you seen any peculiar christmas trees?
A dutch anthro-carpenter, Mr Nauta, is selling on www anthroposophical
decorations for christmas trees. His ateljee is on huge anthroposophical
carpenter-college in Netherlands. I've visited it twice.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 11:30:55 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: stealth Anthroposophy - Youth Section in U.S.
There's a department of the Goetheanum, the headquarters of
Anthroposophy, called the Youth Section. Their web site is
interesting:
http://www.youthsection.org/en
There is a U.S. branch of the Youth Section named Art Everywhere that
has its web site at:
http://www.arteverywhere.org/
Here's a game: see how deep you have to go in this web site before
you find the word "Anthroposophy." I couldn't find it; I did find
"Steiner" mentioned, in passing, on the Articles page.
I note that "Goethean Scientist" Dennis Klocek (certainly no youth)
is on the board of directors. Dennis and I had a run-in when he gave
a lecture at the San Francisco Waldorf School about how wonderful
Waldorf science teaching was. I pointed out that some of it was cult
beliefs, not science. After the lecture he lost his temper and yelled
at me "you should go to church"!
There's a little photo-collage on the home page of Janis Joplin,
Martin Luther King, and Rudolf Steiner! This is really cult
recruitment stuff, folks. It's so slick, and so disguised, it makes
my skin creep.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 12:19:12 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Anthroposophical Christmas Tree
Klaudia, you wrote,
)Rudolf Steiner has given instructions, how the christmas tree has to be
)decorated. There was planet signs on trunk and 33 pcs of somethings (I
)don't remember what)symbolizing 33 years of life of Jesus Christ.
)Has anybody seen some drawing about that tree? I know that that tree is
)used in many Waldorf Schools and other anthro-places.
)Have you seen any peculiar christmas trees?
Very interesting, I'd like to know more about the prescription. Is it
documented anywhere?
A couple of years ago we had a discussion of using real candles on
Christmas trees; the Anthros were minimizing the danger, saying we
were being silly to be upset about it.
)A dutch anthro-carpenter, Mr Nauta, is selling on www anthroposophical
)decorations for christmas trees. His ateljee is on huge anthroposophical
)carpenter-college in Netherlands. I've visited it twice.
URL for his site, please?
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 16:13:15 -0500
From: "Nicole Foss" (nmfoss hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Stunted imagination
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C28A66.68381B80
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Alice here:
My nine-year old son, current Montessori student, former 2plus years
at W. school (his big sister, nine years there..) lost a tooth last
night. He was completely convinced and thrilled at the tooth fairy 's
kind attention and gifts this morning.
Despite the montessori emphasis on science and cognition, the gift of
magical thinking is still powerful in this age group.
He was thrilled to be somehow "blessed" by this magical being..
Personally, I think this is a sacred duty of parenting...to keep this
alive as long as possible.. a child's personal connection to certain
powers outside themselves.
It is not the same, however, as W. theory on otherwordly thinking..it
is psychological support for my children... another reassurance and
connection to a benevolent influence outside themselves. NOT literal
belief in the world of fairies and intrusion into trying to pry into
the spirit world.
Nicole: Very well put Alice. I agree with you on both points. I also
think that magical thinking in young children is something to be
cherished while it lasts, but, as you say, this is not the same thing
as adults believing that myths and fairytales are literally true. I
merely suggest that educators of young children can reach them more
readily if they present their material in a form which complements
the way that young children think (through stories and songs etc),
rather than factually lecturing to them as if they were miniature
adults. One can have both facts and imagination and children benefit
when both are encouraged.
REE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:34:27 +0000
From: Klaudia (klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Anthroposophical Christmas Tree
Dan Dugan wrote:
)
) )A dutch anthro-carpenter, Mr Nauta, is selling on www anthroposophical
) )decorations for christmas trees. His ateljee is on huge anthroposophical
) )carpenter-college in Netherlands. I've visited it twice.
)
) URL for his site, please?
Klaudia:
Sorry, it seems that he has removed that page. But there is other
interesting stuff there (please open all links what You'll find).
Here is name of that anthro-carpenter-college:
Adriaan Roland Holstschool
Main page:
http://www.vorm-licht.nl/
On some page is given:
"The organical design as you see it in our products, find it's origin in
the work of Rudolf Steiner (1861-1925). This versatile natural and
humanist scientist also pioneered as a renewer of visual art.
Organically design is not only beautiful: it is harmonizing, and, most
likely, it is therapeutical."
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 18:16:10 -0500
From: Al's stuff (alice.javanet rcn.com)
Subject: Re: Stunted imagination
) This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
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on 11/12/02 4:13 PM, Nicole Foss at nmfoss hotmail.com wrote:
Nicole: Very well put Alice. I agree with you on both points. I also think
that magical thinking in young children is something to be cherished while
it lasts, but, as you say, this is not the same thing as adults believing
that myths and fairytales are literally true. I merely suggest that
educators of young children can reach them more readily if they present
their material in a form which complements the way that young children think
(through stories and songs etc), rather than factually lecturing to them as
if they were miniature adults. One can have both facts and imagination and
children benefit when both are encouraged.
Alice here:
And I agree with you too. It seems to be one of those leftover post-Waldorf
places of sadness in me..to encourage a deeper understanding of
developmentally appropriate education in the world (based on scientific
theory, intuition and the tried and true..)
It is one of those basic Steiner ideas that I agree with...
I remember during my Master's program, taking a course in stress management.
We learned visualization techniques and it was stated that during
visualization the brain cannot discriminate between fantasy/reality. For
example, when we put ourselves in a beautiful place during guided
meditation, much of our physical self believes we are
actually there.
It seems like this is true for children in particular..neurologically they
must process using this deeper form so interactionally it is their primary
"language".
Abusing this form, however, has potential for much greater harm because of
the power and influence this has for children - it goes in deeper I think.
another reason that the flawed system of Waldorf education should stay away
from children at least until all of their educators are proven to be above
reproach and absolutely truthful.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 23:29:16 +0000
From: Klaudia (klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Anthroposophical Christmas Tree
Dan Dugan wrote:
)
) Very interesting, I'd like to know more about the prescription. Is it
) documented anywhere?
Klaudia:
Doctor Steiner tells about it in his book " The Christmas Tree - a
symbol (a symbol for paradise tree)
Rudolf Steiner: Der Weihnachtsbaum - ein Symbolum. Vortrag, Berlin, 21.
Dezember 1909. Dornach, Goetheanum, Philosophisch-anthroposophischer
Verlag, s.d. 160 X 240 mm. br. 28 pp.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 17:01:37 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: stealth Anthroposophy - Youth Section in U.S.
Dan Dugan wrote: (snip)
) There's a little photo-collage on the home page (
http://www.arteverywhere.org/ ) of Janis Joplin,
) Martin Luther King, and Rudolf Steiner! This is really cult
) recruitment stuff, folks. It's so slick, and so disguised, it makes
) my skin creep.
Walden: Yes, that was over the top for me, as well. Mixing those three
people on a t shirt is wayyyyyy out there IMO. I discovered that site and
wrote to them with my concerns over a year ago. I never heard back. My
email was not rude - I was curious. Interesting that so many questions go
unanswered.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 18:57:13 -0800
From: Ray Fulk (fractalfrydaddy comcast.net)
Subject: Re: Anthroposophical Christmas Tree
Hi Klaudia. Check out Steiner's lecture "Signs & Symbols of the
Christmas Festival" :
http://www.elib.com/Steiner/Festivals/Christmas/index.php
Ray
) Rudolf Steiner has given instructions, how the christmas tree has
) to be
) decorated. There was planet signs on trunk and 33 pcs of
) somethings (I
) don't remember what)symbolizing 33 years of life of Jesus Christ.
) Has anybody seen some drawing about that tree? I know that that
) tree is
) used in many Waldorf Schools and other anthro-places.
) Have you seen any peculiar christmas trees?
) A dutch anthro-carpenter, Mr Nauta, is selling on www
) anthroposophical
) decorations for christmas trees. His ateljee is on huge
) anthroposophical
) carpenter-college in Netherlands. I've visited it twice.
)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 19:47:26 -0800
From: Ray Fulk (fractalfrydaddy comcast.net)
Subject: Re: stealth Anthroposophy - Youth Section in U.S.
) Walden: Yes, that was over the top for me, as well. Mixing those
) threepeople on a t shirt is wayyyyyy out there IMO.
This is an image out of Sartre's vision of hell: all three stuck on a t-
shirt for eternity with no exit! Janis seems to be having a good time
but Dr. King seems to be doing some soul searching. Maybe Rose and
Dr.King can talk some sense into the man.
Alternative quotes for back of t-shirt:
Janis: "Laugh because it's funny, cry because it's true."
Dr.King: "Good Lord, what sin did I commit to be stuck with Jezebel and
this white supremist?!?"
Steiner: "Hey, look at me...I almost have a smile on my face!"
Disturbed and amused.
Ray
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 22:38:42 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: RE: Anthroposophical Christmas Tree
) ) )A dutch anthro-carpenter, Mr Nauta, is selling on www anthroposophical
)) )decorations for christmas trees. His ateljee is on huge anthroposophical
)) )carpenter-college in Netherlands. I've visited it twice.
))
)) URL for his site, please?
)
)Klaudia:
)
)Sorry, it seems that he has removed that page. But there is other
)interesting stuff there (please open all links what You'll find).
)Here is name of that anthro-carpenter-college:
)Adriaan Roland Holstschool
)
)Main page:
)http://www.vorm-licht.nl/
The ornaments are there, in the woodwork section, under "cultical."
Very interesting!
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 23:36:19 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Ross Valley and pictures of John Morse Waldorf Methods School
I attended the meeting of the Ross Valley School District Board of
Trustees tonight in San Anselmo, CA. The news is that the group
proposing a Waldorf school, having withdrawn their plan for a
district Waldorf school in favor of applying for a charter, has told
the board that they will make the charter application in 2003 for a
fall 2004 opening.
Trustee Lee Pollard took an opportunity to make a brief photo survey
of John Morse Waldorf Methods School in Sacramento, CA. This is one
of the schools named in the PLANS lawsuit. Pollard presented a slide
show of selected pictures to the board. Pollard's photos included a
typical Waldorf nature altar, and decorations depicting Greek
mythological subjects. There was a close-up of a wet-on-wet sun in
red and yellow made by a first-grader. The walls were lazured in
pastels in typical Waldorf style.
The Waldorf committee did not attend the meeting. The school board
members commented at how severe and plain the classrooms appeared,
with very little student art, or any kind of art, for that matter, on
display. I didn't speak. A woman who I don't know pointed out that
there was quite a bit of sun-god symbolism in what was shown. Local
activist Cindy Ross warned the board against getting involved in
something inappropriate; they said they had no interest in it at
present.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 08:50:24 +0000
From: Klaudia (klaudiaypma1960 hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Anthroposophical Christmas Tree
Dan Dugan wrote:
) )Main page:
) )http://www.vorm-licht.nl/
)
) The ornaments are there, in the woodwork section, under "cultical."
) Very interesting!
)
Klaudia:
Thanks for finding that. My husband has a miniatyre band-saw and pieces
of plywood. We'll make a workshop.
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 874
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Anthroposophical Christmas Tree
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: Waldorf Education and Anthroposophy I, Shakespeare
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: stealth Anthroposophy - Youth Section in U.S.
By Diana.Winters worldnet.att.net
Re: Stunted imagination
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: Stunted imagination
By nmfoss hotmail.com
Re: Waldorf Education and Anthroposophy I, Shakespeare
By fractalfrydaddy comcast.net
Re: Stunted imagination
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 08:29:44 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Anthroposophical Christmas Tree
) Dan Dugan wrote:
))) Main page:
))) http://www.vorm-licht.nl/
))
)) The ornaments are there, in the woodwork section, under "cultical."
)) Very interesting!
Sharon: That's an amazing site! I suppose the light fixtures are specially
designed to keep Ahriman to a minimum. I thought the "Rosicruiae" and tree
ornaments were utterly intriguing. Fascinating.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 08:37:28 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Waldorf Education and Anthroposophy I, Shakespeare
Sharon: Continuing to send quotes from Steiner on Shakespeare as I try to
show that the reason for teaching Shakespeare in Waldorf is because Steiner
believed the works were occult-coded and would help people see spiritual
beings and enter the spiritual world. Steiner saw Shakespearean dramas as
mystery plays, and he himself was rather fond of putting on mystery plays.
I hear they are still performed at the Goetheanum. I found a great photo of
one production where the players are all dressed up with occult insignias on
their robes, and other occult sigils are displayed on the stage. (See John
Fletcher's Art Inspired by Rudolf Steiner). Note how Steiner drags out his
veiled doctrinal vocabulary once again, (imagination, inspiration and
intuition)... *Astericks denote italics...
Steiner: "I speak here from the anthroposophical view of the world...I have
already had occasion to speak about the way in which "exact clairvoyance" is
being cultivated at the Goetheanum, the school of spiritual science in
Dornach, Switzerland. I have described the paths to this exact clairvoyance
in the books translated into English as *How to know Higher Worlds,
Theosophy, and An Outline of Occult Science*. By means of certain exercises,
carried out no less precisely than in the learning of mathematics, we can
strengthen our soul faculties. Gradually, we can so develop our powers of
thought, feeling, and will that we are able to live with our souls
consciously - not in the unconsciousness of sleep or in dreams - outside the
body. We become able to leave behind the physical body with its
intellectualistic thought - for this remains with the physical body - in
full consciousness. Then we have "imaginations", by which I do not mean
such fanciful imaginings as are justified in artistic work, but I mean *true
imaginations*, true pictures of the spiritual world surrounding us. Through
what I have called "imagination", "inspiration", and "intuition", we learn
to perceive in the spiritual world. Just as we consciously perceive this
physical world and, through our senses, learn to build an understanding of
it as a totality from the single sensory impressions of sound and color, so
from the spiritual perceptions of exact clairvoyance we learn to build up an
understanding of the spiritual world as a totality...In exact clairvoyance,
we come to know the spiritual world in full consciousness, as clearly and as
exactly as when we do mathematical work. Transferring ourselves into higher
spiritual regions, we experience pictures comparable, not with what are
ordinarily known as visions, but rather as memory pictures. But these are
pictures of an absolutely real spiritual world (...)
If we approach Shakespeare with such powers of seeing into the spiritual
world, we shall experience something quite specific, and it is this that I
wish to speak"
(220-222 Waldorf Education and Anthroposophy. 1 Public Lectures 1921-22.
Foundations of Waldorf Education. Anthroposophic Press 1995. lectures from
1921-22).
Sharon: Listening Ray? I'll pick up from here next time.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 09:23:50 -0500
From: "Diana Winters" (diana.winters worldnet.att.net)
Subject: Re: stealth Anthroposophy - Youth Section in U.S.
Did anyone else follow the "soul ecology" link on the youth section of the
Goetheanum thing? A perfect example of cult recruitment. It's a series of
experiential seminar-style things, where you'll study . . . . Steiner, Owen
Barfield and "related" authors, that is, you'll study anthroposophy. It's
retitled, tagged with buzz words that appeal to today's youth like
"ecology," and perhaps packaged with a few other New Agey things that will
seem sympatico, but the point is to introduce the kids who sign up to
anthroposophy.
Here's another example of how anthroposophy is expanding:
http://www.lifeways-center.org
They start out talking about T. Berry Brazleton and Stanley Greenspan! -
very
mainstream, best-selling child development people - and although they do
mention Steiner, later,
the fact that this is another anthroposophic endeavor is not explained, and
there is none of the urgently necessary details about what Steiner actually
believed about children's development. There are a lot of little projects
like this flying under the radar now.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 09:43:27 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Stunted imagination
) This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
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Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
on 11/12/02 8:47 AM, Nicole Foss at nmfoss hotmail.com wrote:
Nicole: I know many wonderfully gifted, successful and well-adjusted
Waldorf graduates, and also some who are struggling. I think it critically
depends on who the child has for a teacher. I have never seen a better
teacher anywhere than the one my daughter has. I have spent a great deal of
time assisting in his class and therefore know what he teaches and how he
teaches it.
Sharon: As I said, the same can be said about *all* schools. I think
"success" also depends on the child's parents, family members, friends and
other opportunities that a child is given outside of school. My daughter
also has one of those absolutely great teachers for social science. She has
quite a few teachers, each with their own personalities. I like the fact
that she has to learn how to deal with different personalities.
Nicole: I can only speak from my own experience and that of my children, who
have all benefited from attending their current school. The school is not
perfect and we have several important on-going issues with it, but the
education my children receive there has helped them to develop imaginatively
as human beings.
Sharon: Our school was not very imaginative. Kits, kits, kits and more
Waldorf-kosher kits. Mc dolls. One sanctioned aesthetic. Copied smudgy,
occult-coded pictures copied off the board with a ban on facial features
(early grades). Mandalas and talismans being passed off as "paintings".
Eurythmy being passed off as dance. Recitation, recitation, recitation.
Anthroposophy, Anthroposophy, Anthroposophy. Roll call that lasted for an
agonizing time, was like torture my daughter tells me. Having said that, I'd
agree that there are some nice aspects about Waldorf, I just found the
experience much more negative than positive, and I resent being manipulated
and made to prop up Anthroposophy without my sanction. I do not wish my
family to be united in Anthroposophy, ideologically, we are worlds apart.
(For starters, I was an anti-apartheid activist and I'm a freethinker). I
did like the way disposable dishes were not used in Waldorf.
Nicole: I do not blindly trust the school. I dislike anthroposophy, which
they should be honest about, and would like to see much more openness and
accountability.
Sharon: I can't support an ideology that I don't like. That's why my family
left Apartheid South Africa. Because we were white, we were by birth
propping up a system my family abhorred. The system was quite lovely if you
were a non-thinking white person, but we knew too well what we were
supporting just by being part of the privileged class. If Waldorf schools
would quit their rather bizarre denials, and would just exotericize their
religion, be straight with parents, and get out of the public system, PLANS
would not exist. I'd love Anthroposophists to repudiate Steiner's racist
work, but I understand that if they do that, his religion crumbles. The
changes that Mormons made to Smith's doctrine were easier. Steiner's racism
is more fundamental. I understand that they are in a bit of a bind, so many
denials to mop up (think Dutch Report). Isn't it strange how so many parents
will say they don't like Anthroposophy yet they continue to prop it up! I'm
in Anthroposophist Wilkinson's camp when he says:
Wilkinson: "It has been known for parents to say that they like the school,
but wish it were divorced from certain 'crazy' ideas which they may have
garnered, or which a teacher may have expressed. The Waldorf school and the
'crazy' ideas
are, however, inseparable. Waldorf schools would not exist if they were not
related to these ideas." (Roy Wilkinson, "The Spiritual Basis of Steiner
Education: The Waldorf School Approach," Sophia Books, Rudolf Steiner Press,
1996
Nicole: Some teachers are less able than others and there have been
problems, but, on the whole, people stay at our school because there are
significant educational benefits for their children. I take issue far more
with the governance structure than I do with the education provided. If it
were nothing but an anthroposophical Sunday school, we would not be there. I
have yet to find a better local alternative for my children.
Sharon: I'd love to sit down with you and look through your children's
lesson books. Do your teachers teach the man and animal block, the Old
Testament, Holy People, the mystery religions of the evolution of the
Aryans? Are your children praying to Christ the Sun Being each morning? (I
think you mentioned that you are a secular humanist and I'm wondering how
you come to terms with that).
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 21:28:51 -0500
From: "Nicole Foss" (nmfoss hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Stunted imagination
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C28B5B.A965C8A0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Sharon wrote:
I think "success" also depends on the child's parents, family
members, friends and other opportunities that a child is given
outside of school. My daughter also has one of those absolutely great
teachers for social science. She has quite a few teachers, each with
their own personalities. I like the fact that she has to learn how to
deal with different personalities.
Nicole:
I agree that outside opportunities are also strong formative influences.
I think that really great teachers are few and far between and
finding one that my daughter can have for several years in a row is
very fortunate. It would be fortunate even if she were a typical
child, but for her the benefits are even more important. She has
significant difficulties, due to her hearing loss, which are not
immediately apparent. It takes time for a teacher to learn what works
for a child with a disability (what they can and cannot do and how to
adapt lessons or teaching style for their benefit), and it would be a
shame for that learning curve to have to be climbed repeatedly (every
class with different subject teachers every year). She is quite shy
and has trouble explaining to new people the extent of her
difficulties or saying that she hasn't understood something. Her
teacher knows her very well after two and a half years. She feels
completely comfortable with him because she knows that he understands
her capabilities. Other teachers, at different schools ov!
er the years, have often thought she was ignoring them when they've
called her name and she hasn't answered. Even though they know she
has a hearing problem, they don't realize how truly oblivious she is
of background noise unless her attention is drawn to it by a tap on
the shoulder. She finds it very painful to be harshly spoken to when
she has been doing her best.
By the time she is in (public) high school and has to adapt to having
multiple teachers, she will be older and more confident. Then I think
it will be good for her to meet, and work with, many different
people. I am concerned though that the high school curriculum is very
prescriptive and leaves remarkably little time for going over things
more than once. The special needs budget was drastically reduced as a
cost saving measure, so we may still have difficulties. Time will
tell.
Her current teacher came from the public system, but left as that
system became increasingly stifling. It left him no room to be
creative and to ensure that the children had really understood the
material before moving on to another topic. Our government doesn't
trust its public school teachers and so feels the need to script
every moment of their day. Many are very demoralized and come to
teach in schools like ours where the curriculum is given in very
general terms and they have a lot of freedom in terms of presentation
and pace.
The content of what I watched him teach, in my capacity as classroom
assistant, was not at all controversial. It just wasn't presented in
a conventional way (ie as factual lectures). The Greek block was
really wonderful. Those kids had such a feel for what it would have
been like to live in ancient Greece.
Sharon wrote:
Our school was not very imaginative. Kits, kits, kits and more
Waldorf-kosher kits. Mc dolls. One sanctioned aesthetic. Copied
smudgy, occult-coded pictures copied off the board with a ban on
facial features (early grades). Mandalas and talismans being passed
off as "paintings". Eurythmy being passed off as dance. Recitation,
recitation, recitation. Anthroposophy, Anthroposophy, Anthroposophy.
Roll call that lasted for an agonizing time, was like torture my
daughter tells me. Having said that, I'd agree that there are some
nice aspects about Waldorf, I just found the experience much more
negative than positive.
Nicole:
I've never seen, or heard of, anyone at our school doing a roll call
of any kind.
I like the crafts that they do at our school - I made a lot of little
felt things as well as Waldorf dolls in the craft group in the days
when I was still personally involved. I was quite free to design as
well as to copy the designs of others, indeed new designs were
particularly welcome. Most people copied, but then relatively few
people seem to sew these days so they didn't have the confidence to
adapt patterns or do something different. Handwork has always been my
hobby, so I was in my element. I wouldn't say we had one sanctioned
aesthetic, although some things, like the lack of facial features,
has always seemed bizarre to me.
The board art has always been wonderful. We seem to be fortunate in
having some very talented artists, with a variety of personal styles,
on staff. Some of the Greek landscapes were phenomenal - so much
attention to detail and so much effort put into making everything
visually stunning. Some of the painting work in the various grades
may have hidden meanings for (at least some of) the teachers, but I
don't find that unduly disturbing. What is beautiful is beautiful,
and art, by its very nature, means different things to different
people. None of it meant anything otherwordly to my children. I want
them to learn to put in the effort that it takes to produce something
of quality for its own inherent value, not just because someone might
give them an A for it.
I also find value in recitation. It is reminiscent of an earlier oral
culture which modern people seem to have lost. People used to commit
their entire cultural repertoire to memory, whereas these days we
have difficulty remembering anything if we haven't written it down.
The ability to retain and relate or apply large amounts of complex
information given orally does not develop to any great extent without
practice (I remember back to my child development course from
university), but it is very useful as a life skill. My younger
children (who do not have hearing problems to interfere with an oral
learning style) can recite epic poems and perform long parts in plays
(even in foreign languages, with a faultless accent) or tell long
stories in a spellbinding way. I could not do this if my life
depended on it because my brain was never trained this way. If this
means they learn to read later, then so be it (my older two, who 9
and 11, read voraciously already). They will be able t!
o process both oral and written information as adults, whereas I am
largely confined to the written word. I appreciate that some people
are inherently more verbal or more visual, but the point remains that
practice can result in more flexibility of learning styles in later
life.
Sharon wrote:
I resent being manipulated and made to prop up Anthroposophy without
my sanction. I do not wish my family to be united in Anthroposophy,
ideologically, we are worlds apart. (For starters, I was an
anti-apartheid activist and I'm a freethinker). I can't support an
ideology that I don't like. That's why my family left Apartheid South
Africa. Because we were white, we were by birth propping up a system
my family abhorred. The system was quite lovely if you were a
non-thinking white person, but we knew too well what we were
supporting just by being part of the privileged class.
Nicole:
I am also a freethinker. Waldorf should be honest about their
religion and they are not. They should be respectful of parents and
other outsiders and they are not. You make a very good point about
propping up an abhorrent ideology merely through passive
participation, while leaving others to suffer the ill-effects. I do
not wish to support their ideology, but nor do I wish to support the
mainstream value system based on an endless quest for more material
wealth and instant personal gratification, a value system that also
discards the disadvantaged. If I thought I was allowing my children
to be trained as racists, I would remove them immediately, but I
honestly don't find that to be the case. If, however, I sent them to
public school, I am quite sure that I would be allowing them to be
trained as the next generation of consumers - part of the me-first
generation - not just through the education itself (although I do
find very superficial), but through peer-group association wit!
h the mainstream values I object to.
I don't want my children to be overly exposed, either directly or
indirectly through their peer group, to the effects of commercialism
until they are old enough to be able to understand it in context. The
messages targeted at young children, through advertising in
particular, are all about making them feel that they will only be
happy if they have this or that, or will only be popular if they look
or dress a certain way. It's about fostering discontent, manipulating
greed and envy, and dressing up wants as needs in order to be able to
make money by selling 'the solution'. I feel that children who have
not grown up continually subjected to these influences are better
able to see the attempts at manipulation for what they are, and are
more likely to be happy whether or not they eventually have as many
possessions as their neighbours.
We live on a farm and aspire to be as self-sufficient as possible. I
want my children to know where everything comes from and understand
just how much work went into producing it (no instant gratification,
everything worth having is worth waiting for and working hard for). I
want them to know how to work with their hands as well as with their
minds, which is something else they are getting from the Waldorf
school. They are developing an appreciation for the simple life that
I think will serve them well in the future.
I believe that, in many ways, the future is more likely to resemble
the past than it is to resemble the present, hence the relevance of
the practical skills they are learning. I have spent many years
studying economics and finance (I was a research fellow at Oxford
University when I lived in England), specifically the history of
financial markets and the large swings of positive feedback inherent
in them (bubbles, manias, panics, crashes and other manifestations of
the herd instinct). We have just lived through the largest credit
bubble since the 1720s, exceeding the extent of the one whose demise
marked the beginning of the Great Depression by a considerable
margin. Debt has ballooned to historic proportions, while both stocks
and real estate are grossly overvalued and the futures market is a
house of cards. I fully expect that my children will grow up in a
deflationary era where there will generally be very little material
wealth of any kind. It is extremely important theref!
ore that they not have unrealistic material expectations,
expectations that may be unavoidable if we were to become part of the
mainstream. I know I sound like a crackpot, but I don't have the time
or the space here to fully explain my logic, nor do I want to bore
others with something they would probably consider off-topic.
Sharon wrote:
I'd love to sit down with you and look through your children's lesson
books. Do your teachers teach the man and animal block, the Old
Testament, Holy People, the mystery religions of the evolution of the
Aryans? Are your children praying to Christ the Sun Being each
morning? (I think you mentioned that you are a secular humanist and
I'm wondering how you come to terms with that).
Nicole:
I would rather that my children did not have to study biblical
stories, although my son really enjoyed learning about the saints
(particularly the one whose name he shares). It's something I put up
with just as I put up with daily worship at our previous (state)
school in England, where there was no choice but to be subjected to
religion at school. I have always filtered dogma out of their
education by dealing with the issues at home. As for Christ the Sun
Being (which I don't recall ever having seen a reference to in their
lesson books or heard them speak about), I don't find that any more
(or less) strange than mainstream religious dogma. My older daughter
has spent time learning about ancient India, Babylon, Greece and
Rome, but I have been present at some of those lessons and they were
not based on religion. It seemed to me like a way of bringing history
to life, giving modern children a sense of what it meant to have
lived in ancient times. Greek Olympics was a particular!
ly positive experience. If at any time I felt that they were being
steeped in Aryan superiority (and I am watching carefully), I would
withdraw them.
I am grateful to the members of this list for sharing their
experiences in order that others, such as myself, will have a better
idea of what to watch out for. There are many outstanding issues with
our school. Its governance structure is a closed shop and
demonstrates very little administrative competence. Although we have
been very lucky with our children's teachers, others have not. I am
no longer personally involved with the school because of the
conflicts we have had. It has been a very painful experience for me,
although fortunately not for my children. I don't plan to stop
working to change what is wrong with the place (that would be
hypocritical), so I suppose they will probably get tired of us
eventually and ask us to leave. If there were any viable alternative,
we may very well have left already. There are still many positives,
but the negatives are mounting and may soon tip the balance.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 19:38:24 -0800
From: Ray Fulk (fractalfrydaddy comcast.net)
Subject: Re: Waldorf Education and Anthroposophy I, Shakespeare
Steiner:
) If we approach Shakespeare with such powers of seeing into the
) spiritualworld, we shall experience something quite specific, and
) it is this that I
) wish to speak"
) Sharon: Listening Ray? I'll pick up from here next time.
Oh, this slumbering dragon just woke up (g)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 23:34:18 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Stunted imagination
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Nicole wrote: (snip)
By the time she is in (public) high school and has to adapt to having
multiple teachers, she will be older and more confident. Then I think
it will be good for her to meet, and work with, many different
people. I am concerned though that the high school curriculum is very
prescriptive and leaves remarkably little time for going over things
more than once. The special needs budget was drastically reduced as a
cost saving measure, so we may still have difficulties. Time will
tell.
Walden: I trust you realize that many experienced Waldorf teachers
agree with Steiner that children must do the entire 12 (or more)
years of Waldorf or don't do it at all? The system is such that
blind obedience and total authority is weaned and questions are
allowed when the intellect solidifies (remember - souls are
incarnating) at 14. I remember one well known and respected ( who I
actually did enjoy reading - very bright person) Waldorf teacher
believed it to be unhealthy and potentially damaging for a child to
attend 7 or 8 years of Waldorf and then slip into *mainstream* high
school. The child would be overwhelmed because they were sheltered
and led for so long.
Nicole: If I thought I was allowing my children to be trained as
racists, I would remove them immediately, but I honestly don't find
that to be the case. If, however, I sent them to public school, I am
quite sure that I would be allowing them to be trained as the next
generation of consumers - part of the me-first generation - not just
through the education itself (although I do find very superficial),
but through peer-group association with the mainstream values I
object to.
Walden: So you chose Waldorf to shield your child from consumerism?
If only it werethat simple.... I just returned from a meeting at our
kid's new school - public. Some of the meeting involved a discussion
about whether we should allow drink machines in the school as a
fundraiser. A few parents spoke eloquently about consumerism and
pop, juice, water, etc. It lead to a discussion on consumerism,
multinationals and the WTO. A fine time was had by all parents and
couple of older students. I, too - was fed that line about the
demonic. materialistic *other* schools during our Waldorf Daze. They
did not quite state that should we be so stupid and heartless as to
put our children in these materialistic hell holes they would surely
have their little souls sucked from their bodies - but the sentiment
was there...wrapped in silk, of course (g)
Nicole: I do not want my children to be overly exposed, either
directly or indirectly through their peer group, to the effects of
commercialism until they are old enough to be able to understand it
in context. The messages targeted at young children, through
advertising in particular, are all about making them feel that they
will only be happy if they have this or that, or will only be popular
if they look or dress a certain way. It's about fostering discontent,
manipulating greed and envy, and dressing up wants as needs in order
to be able to make money by selling 'the solution'. I feel that
children who have not grown up continually subjected to these
influences are better able to see the attempts at manipulation for
whathey are, and are more likely to be happy whether or not they
eventually have as many possessions as their neighbours.
Walden: Bingo - I am with you there. Well put... but it really has
nothing to do with Waldorf. We saw too much pretending at our
school, anyway. Spiritual Wanabees.
Nicole:
I believe that, in many ways, the future is more likely to resemble
the past than it is to resemble the present, hence the relevance of
the practical skills they are learning. I have spent many years
studying economics and finance (I was a research fellow at Oxford
University when I lived in England), specifically the history of
financial markets and the large swings of positive feedback inherent
in them (bubbles, manias, panics, crashes and other manifestations of
the herd instinct). We have just lived through the largest credit
bubble since the 1720s, exceeding the extent of the one whose demise
marked the beginning of the Great Depression by a considerable
margin. Debt has ballooned to historic proportions, while both stocks
and real estate are grossly overvalued and the futures market is a
house of cards. I fully expect that my children will grow up in a
deflationary era where there will generally be very little material
wealth of any kind. It is extremely important theref!
ore that they not have unrealistic material expectations,
expectations that may be unavoidable if we were to become part of the
mainstream. I know I sound like a crackpot, but I don't have the time
or the space here to fully explain my logic, nor do I want to bore
others with something they would probably consider off-topic.
Walden: Interesting, indeed. Not off topic at all. Tell me - what
are your thoughts on Steiner's Threefolding? If you are familiar
with his social/economic model I would be interested in your views.
Some folks say that is what Waldorf is all about. In any case - I
appreciate your posts.
- Walden
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 875
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Stunted imagination
By mysplum earthlink.net
Waldorf roll call
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: Waldorf roll call
By deerone mindspring.com
Re: Waldorf roll call
By nmfoss hotmail.com
Re: Waldorf roll call
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Waldorf Education and Anthroposophy I, Shakespeare
By mysplum earthlink.net
RE: Anthroposophical Christmas Tree
By willow.firesong creative-interweb.com
RE: Heindel, future human form
By willow.firesong creative-interweb.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 09:25:04 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Stunted imagination
) This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
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on 11/13/02 6:28 PM, Nicole Foss at nmfoss hotmail.com wrote:
The content of what I watched him teach, in my capacity as classroom
assistant, was not at all controversial. It just wasn't presented in a
conventional way (ie as factual lectures). The Greek block was really
wonderful. Those kids had such a feel for what it would have been like to
live in ancient Greece.
Sharon: Steiner taught that those kids actually did live in ancient Greece!
They get their memories jogged, they must be helped to remember their past
lives. Anthros follow the path of the spiritual evolution of the Aryan when
they teach Indian, Persian, Greek, and Germanic culture/religion. Very
cleverly done.
Nicole:
I've never seen, or heard of, anyone at our school doing a roll call of any
kind.
Sharon: I sat through one myself. It was hell. The teacher sang "Are you
here XX", and each child had to respond, "Yes I'm here Mrs. X". The tune was
very slow so the process took absolutely ages, plus, during the roll call,
kids were goofing off and the teacher just stood with her arms crossed.
After the class became completely out of control, she tried to catch some
kid's attention with special hand signs. Then when this didn't work she
started to play a couple notes on the xylophone. Once she got control she
continued roll call. About three children were patiently waiting, the rest
started going mad again. After school I asked my child if that how it was
every day, she said yes. When she went to public school, she was so relieved
because the kids were quieter and calmer. She commented to me about this.
Nicole: Handwork has always been my hobby, so I was in my element. I
wouldn't say we had one sanctioned aesthetic, although some things, like the
lack of facial features, has always seemed bizarre to me.
Sharon: I trained at the Art Institute of Chicago with a stint at Winchester
School of Art in England. I felt like the Waldorf aesthetic police were
always on patrol at our ex-school. I didn't understand that we were united
in Anthroposophy, I thought Waldorf was art-based (I didn't know it was
based on the magical arts). Had I known that I was being manipulated to work
out of the "impulse" of Steiner's occult religion, first, I would simply not
have chosen Waldorf for my child, but secondly, I would have had a better
understanding of why there were so many visual / aesthetic rules and
restrictions - even the lettering on posters etc. had to be Anthro font or
lettering sanctioned by the Anthro police. Steiner's subtext festered just
below the surface, occasionally erupting in bizarre ways that made me think
everyone was ungrateful and crazy. Steiner is sowing pictures in children.
His training is to prepare children for their future reincarnations by
imprinting pictures that they can recall for the future Six Epoch, Seventh
Epoch, Jupiter, Venus and Vulcan. This is why there is a ban on all
"commercial" imagery. Steiner's method of developing "exact clairvoyance" is
at work. See, I love Gumby and Pokey, and other cute, creative characters. I
prefer them to Steiner's suffocating vision of what is kosher for children.
I would have preferred a school where people made all sorts of dolls and all
sorts of art. I adore children's work, and schools that don't squelch the
creative process by imposing an aesthetic and images that have to be copied
from the board.
Nicole: Some of the painting work in the various grades may have hidden
meanings for (at least some of) the teachers, but I don't find that unduly
disturbing. What is beautiful is beautiful, and art, by its very nature,
means different things to different people. None of it meant anything
otherwordly to my children. I want them to learn to put in the effort that
it takes to produce something of quality for its own inherent value, not
just because someone might give them an A for it.
Sharon: Some of the work does have hidden Anthro meaning. My child produced
piles of Anthroposophical icons, like the multitudes of Suns and rainbows.
(Nothing beautiful or creative about them). I never understood why children
were painting blobs of color on rounded pieces of paper until I delved into
Steiner's mumbo jumbo and other occult sources after we left. I had never
heard of the concept that spiritual beings come to earth on the wings of
color. I didn't know "counter" colors channel Akashic forces. I didn't know
that Anthros believe that color heals, or that colors are spiritual beings,
or that devotion to color helps you see or invoke beings and see through
walls. I learned all of this after I left, but it festered like an oozing
sore while we - a family of artists and Freethinkers - were trying to
function in a Waldorf school without any esoteric knowledge. My child used
to try to scratch imagery into her talismans and mandalas with her finger
nails, I have one fuzzy blob with "this is a dumb picture" scratched into
it. At our school, black crayons were banned in the early grades and and so
were lines. There was no free artistic expression. Experimentation with a
variety of mediums was not allowed. It was bees wax, wet-on-wet blob making,
and knitting. No print-making, no collage, no painting with tempera or other
kinds of paints (too opaque and not manufactured by Anthro companies), etc.
Steiner says that delighting in spiritual art shortens your time in
Kalamoca....
Steiner: "To delight in art that is materialistic increases the difficulties
of the Kamaloca state, whereas delight in spiritual art lightens them. Every
noble, spiritual delight shortens the time in Kamaloca. Already during
earthly life we must break ourselves of pleasures and desires which can be
satisfied only by the physical instrument" (Rudolf Steiner, 35. Theosophy
of the Rosicrucian. Rudolf Steiner Press, London, reprint 1981. Lectures
from 1907).
Conversation to be continued later....
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 11:05:28 -0500
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Waldorf roll call
Nicole tells us:
I've never seen, or heard of, anyone at our school doing a roll call of any
kind.
Lisa (laughing): Then your children were fortunate, because Waldorf roll
call was really an exercise in tedium!
The teacher would sing "So-and_so are you here?" and the child was
supposed to reply (also singing) "I am here and I am ready." Of course,
after she had gone through half a dozen names, the rest were getting
impatient and wiggling in their seats, and the whole thing ended up taking
longer.
A friend of mine whose child spent years at Waldorf commented once that
she wanted to make up tee shirts reading "I survived the Waldorf roll call."
I would have been the first customer in line! (g)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 13:18:41 -0500
From: "Karen Sandburg" (deerone mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf roll call
Ah, roll call. Should have been called
"let's-make-the-children-squirm-with-impatience-and-drive-them-crazy" call.
This morning "task" was the last thing my daughter wanted to do first thing
in the morning with all that early morning energy. Another tedious
slow-down-you're-in-our-control-now ritual was the shake the teacher's hand
and look into her eyes every morning and at the end of the day.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lisa D. Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
To: "waldorf-critics" (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 11:05 AM
Subject: Waldorf roll call
)
) Nicole tells us:
)
) I've never seen, or heard of, anyone at our school doing a roll call of
any
) kind.
)
) Lisa (laughing): Then your children were fortunate, because Waldorf roll
) call was really an exercise in tedium!
) The teacher would sing "So-and_so are you here?" and the child was
) supposed to reply (also singing) "I am here and I am ready." Of course,
) after she had gone through half a dozen names, the rest were getting
) impatient and wiggling in their seats, and the whole thing ended up taking
) longer.
) A friend of mine whose child spent years at Waldorf commented once
that
) she wanted to make up tee shirts reading "I survived the Waldorf roll
call."
) I would have been the first customer in line! (g)
)
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:42:14 -0500
From: "Nicole Foss" (nmfoss hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf roll call
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Nicole:
Nothing remotely like that happened in my son or older daughter's
classes (I've never been in the younger one's class, so I don't know
about that). In my daughter's class they all sang Oh Canada, then
said the Lord's Prayer and a verse (I do behold the world, wherein
there shines the sun etc etc - I can't remember the rest), then the
teacher read a verse from a Steiner book called 'In the Light of the
Child' (some vague seasonal platitude, mercifully short). He would
then look round the class to see who was there and who was not and
send the resulting attendance slip down to the office. There was very
little difference between that and the public school I attended as a
child. The whole thing lasted about 5 minutes.
----- Original Message -----
From: Lisa D. Ercolano
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 11:06 AM
To: waldorf-critics
Subject: Waldorf roll call
Nicole tells us:
I've never seen, or heard of, anyone at our school doing a roll call of any
kind.
Lisa (laughing): Then your children were fortunate, because Waldorf roll
call was really an exercise in tedium!
The teacher would sing "So-and_so are you here?" and the child was
supposed to reply (also singing) "I am here and I am ready." Of course,
after she had gone through half a dozen names, the rest were getting
impatient and wiggling in their seats, and the whole thing ended up taking
longer.
A friend of mine whose child spent years at Waldorf commented once that
she wanted to make up tee shirts reading "I survived the Waldorf roll call."
I would have been the first customer in line! (g)
FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 13:11:11 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf roll call
Nicole, you wrote,
)Nothing remotely like that happened in my son or older daughter's
)classes (I've never been in the younger one's class, so I don't know
)about that). In my daughter's class they all sang Oh Canada,
That's very rare for Waldorf. They usually avoid nationalism like the plague.
)then said the Lord's Prayer
Sucking up to the Christian majority.
)and a verse (I do behold the world, wherein there shines the sun etc
)etc - I can't remember the rest),
The standard Anthroposophical opening prayer for the lower grades.
)then the teacher read a verse from a Steiner book called 'In the
)Light of the Child' (some vague seasonal platitude, mercifully
)short).
Anthropops have 52 weekly verses from Steiner's "The Calendar of the
Soul." I recall hearing something about a children's version, I
wonder if that's it.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 21:00:21 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Waldorf Education and Anthroposophy I, Shakespeare
on 11/13/02 7:38 PM, Ray Fulk at fractalfrydaddy comcast.net wrote:
)) Sharon: Listening Ray? I'll pick up from here next time.
)
) Oh, this slumbering dragon just woke up (g)
Sharon: (G) Good, now for a little more from Steiner (I'll try to keep it
brief).
Steiner: "If we approach Shakespeare with such powers of seeing into the
spiritual world, we shall experience something quite specific, and
it is of this that I wish to speak. Shakespeare can be understood with true
and artistic feeling; exact clairvoyance is, of course, not necessary to
have a full experience of his power. But exact clairvoyance can show us
something most significant, which will explain why it is that Shakespeare
can never let us feel he has left us, why it is that he is forever giving us
fresh force and impulse. It is this: whoever has attained exact clairvoyance
by developing the powers of thought, feeling, and will carry over into the
spiritual world what we have experienced here of Shakespeare"...I do not
wish to mention any particular poet by name - I know that everyone has his
or her favorite poets - but any one of the naturalistic poets, particularly
of recent years, could be mentioned. If we compare what we take over from
Shakespeare with what we have in the spiritual world from these poets, we
discover the remarkable fact that Shakespeare's characters live! When we
take them over into the spiritual world, they act. They act differently, but
they bring their life here into the spiritual world. Whereas, if we take
over characters created by a modern naturalistic poet into the spiritual
world, they really behave more like dolls than human beings!". (222) (...)
"Goethe knew and felt how Shakespeare created from the full depths of the
spiritual world" (223).
"...Shakespeare, working as he did in the sixteenth and seventeenth
centuries, was able to create something that still had living connections
with the life of the most ancient drama. And this most ancient drama, as it
speaks to us from Aeschylus, from Sophocles, is in turn a product of the
mysteries, those ancient cultic, artistic actions that derive from the most
ancient, instinctive, inner spiritual knowledge. We can understand what
inspires us so in true art, if we seek the origin of art in the mysteries.
(...) Those who follow the method that I have described in my books can
themselves investigate what exact clairvoyance has to say upon the subject
of the mysteries" (224).
"There was always an understanding for the union of religion, art and
science - which in those days meant a revelation of divine cosmic forces -
in the mystery cults. Insofar as they were a manifestation of divine forces,
the mystery cults entered deeply into humanity's religious feelings...(...)
(225)
"By the witness of deeply-moving scenes and actions, the mysteries sought to
bring the neophyte to the point of living and experiencing outside the
physical body" (226).
"Shakespeare took the continuous current that flows through human evolution
from the ancient Mysteries - their cults and rites - wholly into his inner
life. He took this impulse of the ancient mysteries and his plays come forth
like dreams that are awake and real" (230 Waldorf Education and
Anthroposophy. 1 Public Lectures 1921-22. Foundations of Waldorf Education.
Anthroposophic Press 1995. lectures from 1921-22).
Next time I'll finish summarizing Steiner's chapter. Then next week I'll go
into Shakespeare, Elizabeth, Frederick et al - a great story. Elizabeth's
dad was King James (think Bible). He did not accept his daughter's religion.
(G)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 19:03:25 +1030
From: Willow Firesong (Willow.Firesong creative-interweb.com)
Subject: RE: Anthroposophical Christmas Tree
At 12-11-02 11:29 PM Tuesday, you wrote:
)Dan Dugan wrote:
) )
) ) Very interesting, I'd like to know more about the prescription. Is it
) ) documented anywhere?
)
)Klaudia:
)Doctor Steiner tells about it in his book " The Christmas Tree - a
)symbol (a symbol for paradise tree)
)
)Rudolf Steiner: Der Weihnachtsbaum - ein Symbolum. Vortrag, Berlin, 21.
)Dezember 1909. Dornach, Goetheanum, Philosophisch-anthroposophischer
)Verlag, s.d. 160 X 240 mm. br. 28 pp.
Klaudia, when you say "paradise tree" here, do you mean the traditional
Qabbalistic "Tree of Life", as appropriated by various occult and esoteric
traditions?
Since the origins of the Christmas tree are far more interesting (and
entertaining - those who are interested may do their own research into the
tradition whereby the Roman followers of the god "Attis" would castrate
themselves and fling their genitals through the windows of random
individuals, "blessing" them by allowing their severed parts to lodge in
the trees conveniently displayed in their windows during this festival -
you'll find plenty of references on Google.com by using the search terms:
"christmas tree" attis castration
though you can narrow the results further by throwing in cybele and "Roman
festival"), and have already been subjected to failed (though similarly
entertaining) attempts to explain them away (see the stories about the
British St. Boniface (or Boneface)), I fail to see why anyone would bother
to create yet another explanation and/or interpretation of this tradition.
Then again, I also fail to comprehend just why I am supposed to see a point
in hacking down a perfectly good tree for the purpose of watching it die in
my living room, slowly metamorphosing into its new incarnation as a very
large fire hazard and home for small insects and arachnids with whom I
prefer not to share my home.
It's not like cut flowers, which, though they may fade in my home, were
destined to similarly fade on the plants which bore them, in the space of a
few days or weeks at most... we're talking about a tree which could have
lived for many years, trading oxygen and carbon dioxide with me, in a much
more effective representation of renewal, in my opinion, at least. To cut
it down seems antithetical to the concept supposedly symbolized, to me.
Add in the attempt to use Northern Hemisphere symbolism during the height
of our Southern Hemisphere summer, where the renewal of light in darkness
is a concept made ridiculous by the near-constant blazing of the sun, and
the whole thing takes on the air of frantic attempts to participate in what
is merely the setup for some kind of theological practical joke, by those
who are destined to be its butt.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 22:34:39 +1030
From: Willow Firesong (Willow.Firesong creative-interweb.com)
Subject: RE: Heindel, future human form
At 12-11-02 06:25 PM Tuesday, you wrote:
)mysplum wrote:
) )Too bad I can't find
) ) Steiner's illustrations of future man, would particularly love to see
) ) exactly how the wings will look growing off one's nose area!
) )
)Klaudia:
)Isn't here any artists to draw that?
I'm willing to have a go at it, if only for my own amusement (and that of
my daughter, who likes having me draw weird things for her, including a
face on a stem, with leaves - a "face-plant", inspired by her repeated
"faceplants" into the bed; we also draw her things like a "shoe-tree", and
a pilloried "overworked servant of the Thing upstairs", which aficionados
of "Trap Door" will recognize as a "Berk - in stocks") - but I'll need a
more complete description. Any other little details I should include,
Sharon and other Steiner experts?
After all, it would be a suitable follow-up to "the heeling power of
lemon-skates", a copy of which may now be found in the Waldorf Survivors
list files section.
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 876