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-- Topica Digest --
Re: Bibliography of Rudolf Steiner
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: Bibliography of Rudolf Steiner
By dan dandugan.com
RE: Re: the two steiners
By waldorf_kh hotmail.com
Re: RE: Scaligero and the Roman Race
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
RE: Dualism vs. Monism
By sufrito53 yahoo.com
Spot the difference
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: Spot the difference
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Dualism vs. Monism
By mysplum earthlink.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 08:49:28 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Bibliography of Rudolf Steiner
on 3/14/02 2:42 PM, Peter Zegers at peter_zegers runbox.no wrote:
)kaola:
) 5) is it possible that there are forged documents that are falsely
) attributed to Steiner in order to endorse a different point of view or
) stance and to try to disqualify some too ambiguous statements published
) in his lifetime?
)
) Peter Z: This is entirely possible, but I don't think was of these forged
) documents was included in the GA. As I said before, many private
) transcripts were made before Steiner hired a stenographer.
Sharon: I also wonder about forged documents.
I do know that there is some hanky panky, for example I have noticed that
Anthro Press is very selective, lots of intervention from Anthro editors. I
have seen reprints of books where things have been omitted, or rewritten.
I have been trying to nail down Steiner's secret society memberships but
found the terrain almost impassable. For example I've come across many
references to Steiner and and the OTO, Anthros vehemently deny this. Koenig
once wrote that Steiner was a member of the OTO and then he came out with
another paper saying it wasn't true. The Anthros opened the vault and showed
Koenig that there were no letters to Reuss from Steiner, although there were
letters from Reuss to Steiner, there were also letters from Reuss to Marie.
I also think its strange that Alice Sprengal would run off with Reuss after
Steiner ditched her. I have this hunch that there is more to the story.
Alester Crowley's magic, I have read was just basic Gnostic stuff so I don't
think Anthros should be so afraid of being linked to Crowley. Recently, in
Dan Merkur's book I read that Steiner was installed as the head of the lodge
of the Ordens Temple des Ostens.
I don't believe a word Anthroposophists say, they've lost my trust, I am
always suspicious of them. Helmut Zanders wrote in Theosophical History
VII/6 that Anthro editors are selective and he gave the example of the mark
X used when it suits them in "Correspondences and Documents." For eg.
Steiner refers to Reuss and the ritual he bought from Reuss, instead of
naming Reuss they give an X. I am also very confused about why there are no
letters about Waldorf in Correspondences and Documents.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 11:00:56 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Bibliography of Rudolf Steiner
)Sharon: I also wonder about forged documents.
)
)I do know that there is some hanky panky, for example I have noticed that
)Anthro Press is very selective, lots of intervention from Anthro editors. I
)have seen reprints of books where things have been omitted, or rewritten.
Things I've noticed are chunks of embarrassing text missing in
English editions, and some translators changing "Theosophy" to
"Anthroposophy" in Steiner's earlier books.
-Dan
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 14:21:25 -0700
From: "Kathy Harlan" (waldorf_kh hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Re: the two steiners
Percedol netscape.net wrote:
(snip)
It's not the outer aspect that is important, but the inner element. An
african or a Japanese can be well more advanced than a German or a British
(snip)
Could you expand on what you mean by 'more advanced'? When you talk about
'inner element' associated with an individual's nationality I'm not
following. Please give me some examples of what you mean by this.
Thanks,
Kathy
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 17:20:56 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: RE: Scaligero and the Roman Race
) Percedol***
) Because if you want to know the teachings of a teacher you read his works.
) I close here. If you want to continue do it off-list.
Why off-list? I appreciate this dialogue and we can only benefit by keeping
informative discussions open for all to learn from. Did the moderator ask
it to go private?
- Walden
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 04:54:49 +0000
From: Su (sufrito53 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Dualism vs. Monism
mysplum wrote:
snip))
) Sharon: Well, Smith came first and he got his notions from Freemasonry
) (where else!) Then Blavatsky...and the rest. A reaction to Darwinism, a
) reaction to the 17th C split between science and religion.
) )
) )) Steiner on the other hand has a real problem with matter and Steiner's
) )) doctrine insists that spirit is better than matter and that people
) )) started
) )) off as spirit before the fall and must return to spirit once again.
I hadn't known that the great Mormon Smith was a Mason. Fascinating and
certainly enlightening. I followed things in Salt Lake City for the
Olympics. I have heard that the state of Utah is actually a religious
state.
)
) Sharon: I'm a mere student Sue. No need to apologize! I have a lot to
) learn...I'm sorting out my Egyptian, Roman, Greek history now while I
) try to
) square away Neoplatonism, Gnosticism, Cabalism!!
I was duped because I was
) ignorant...got a lot of learning to do!
You are a true scholar, who won't let it rest.
Isn't it funny that all of us on this side of the fence are incredibly
focused on deconstructing and understanding the whole phenomenon of
anthroposophy and waldorf education. It says something about the power
of realization and the anger that accompanies it. Our debating opponents
must know that we are not faint-hearted, on many levels...
It's not over 'til it's over--Yogi Berra
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 00:32:21 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Spot the difference
So - you are interested in Waldorf for your child and have heard a few
things about this arts based nonsectarian school system. Would anyone else
be a little confused by some of the descriptions of Waldorf? Here we see
advertised - 2 books. The first suggests that by sending our child to
Waldorf he/she/they will be helped in becoming "freethinking, socially
responsible adults with initiative." The second book ... well, take a look
at what our child might become. How many "new worlds" might my child
actually build ... and why?
1) A book titled "Waldorf Education" by Christopher Clouder and Martyn Raws
on on sale at Barnes & Noble.com:
From the Publisher:
"This basic introduction to the Waldorf School describes the philosophy and
ideals behind the movement that aims to help children become freethinking,
socially responsible adults with initiative.
There are over 700 Steiner Waldorf Schools in 40 countries, including 127 in
the United States, making it the largest independent educational movement in
the world.
Rudolf Steiner is most widely known as the founder of the Waldorf Schools
and for his innovative ideas on children's mental, physical and emotional
development. What these ideas were and how they have been put into practice
are clearly described and vividly illustrated by pertinent examples from the
classroom and the curriculum.
Includes 40 black and white photographs.
Christopher Clouder and Martyn Rawson have both taught in Waldorf Schools in
the U.K., and are currently active in teacher training and in the promotion
of Waldorf Education at both a national and international level."
2) "The Roots of Education" by Rudolph Steiner at the same store...
From the Publisher:
"We must develop an art of education that will lead us out of the social
chaos into which we have fallen during the past few years and decades. The
only way out of this social chaos is the bring spirituality into human souls
through education, so that humanity may find the way to progress and further
the evolution of civilization out the spirit itself.
The special feature of these lectures is the deep insight into the mystery
of soul and spiritual forces in a child's development. they deal with the
metamorphoses of the child's being as these forces unfold and how teaching
should be related to such fundamental changes. In such education the child
is prepared to become a citizen not only of the earth but of the spiritual
world as well. Only through recognizing our spiritual citizenship can we in
fact truly become social beings on earth and creative in the building of new
worlds."
Another Friday night and another shake of the head.
- Walden
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 01:07:48 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Spot the difference
Walden, you quoted a book blurb,
)2) "The Roots of Education" by Rudolph Steiner at the same store...
)
)From the Publisher:
)"We must develop an art of education that will lead us out of the social
)chaos into which we have fallen during the past few years and decades. The
)only way out of this social chaos is the bring spirituality into human souls
)through education, so that humanity may find the way to progress and further
)the evolution of civilization out the spirit itself.
Whew. Note "the only way," it is exclusive. Other ideas can't even be
considered. Get outta the way, we have to save the children, advance
the "evolution of civilization."
)...In such education the child is prepared to become a citizen not
)only of the earth but of the spiritual world as well.
An appropriate goal for a religious school.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 07:08:44 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Dualism vs. Monism
on 3/15/02 8:54 PM, Su at sufrito53 yahoo.com wrote:
)
) Isn't it funny that all of us on this side of the fence are incredibly
) focused on deconstructing and understanding the whole phenomenon of
) anthroposophy and waldorf education. It says something about the power
) of realization and the anger that accompanies it. Our debating opponents
) must know that we are not faint-hearted, on many levels...
)
Sharon: You can dupe some of the people some of time, but you can't dupe all
the people all the time!
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 668
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Spot the difference
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: Spot the difference
By waldorf_kh hotmail.com
Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
By waldorf_kh hotmail.com
Home visits
By kateabooth yahoo.com.au
Re: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
By sandra.schlick balcab.ch
Re: The present goals and tasks in Jewish culture
By sandra.schlick balcab.ch
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 14:09:33 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Spot the difference
Walden wrote:
)Here we see advertised - 2 books. The first suggests that by sending )our
)child to Waldorf he/she/they will be helped in becoming )"freethinking,
)socially responsible adults with initiative."
Books on alternatives in education often repeat this sort of thing if they
cover Waldorf. (You know, the kind of thing with a paragraph on Waldorf, a
paragraph on Montessori, a paragraph on Christian homeschoolers, etc.) Often
the claims indicate the author researched Waldorf in about 15 minutes of
examining school brochures or web sites.
I found one once that said Steiner schools are based on equality between
teachers and students, stating that Steiner was considered revolutionary in
his day for this idea (paraphrased, sorry I don't have the actual quote or
reference). It would be hard to distort Steiner's views any worse than that.
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 18:14:56 -0700
From: "Kathy Harlan" (waldorf_kh hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Spot the difference
Walden wrote:
)1) A book titled "Waldorf Education" by Christopher Clouder and Martyn
)Raws
)on on sale at Barnes & Noble.com:
)
)From the Publisher:
)"This basic introduction to the Waldorf School describes the philosophy and
)ideals behind the movement that aims to help children become freethinking,
)socially responsible adults with initiative.
This was the book I read before sending my child to a Waldorf school. After
we pulled her out I went back to review the book again to see what I missed.
The book is very slick in terms of its use of language. Nothing in it
really talks about Steiner or Anthroposophy in any amount of detail which
would lead one to understand that he was a mystic and Anthroposophy a
spiritual movement. I remember there being a few things in it that didn't
quite make sense at the time. I just skipped over it and kept reading,
projecting my idyllic thoughts on all of it. If these folks are such true
believers in Anthroposophy then why don't they write a book that explains it
in plain English?
Kathy
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 18:33:08 -0700
From: "Kathy Harlan" (waldorf_kh hotmail.com)
Subject: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
I ran into a woman yesterday at the grocery store whose daughter was in my
daughter's class at the Waldorf school. She related an interesting comment
to me. Her and her husband had researched Waldorf extremely well before
enrolling their child. They actually waited a year because they weren't
sure given the wacky stuff they'd read. Their other school choice didn't
work out so they ended up enrolling at Waldorf. She said the racism in
Steiner's writings was one thing that they were extremely bothered by. She
stated that since they were obviously white they couldn't forsee any direct
impact on their child and didn't believe that anyone in the school "still
believed that stuff".
When they saw our daughter enrolled in the class she said they both breathed
a sigh of relief. "If it didn't bother your family we figured we didn't
have anything to be concerned about." She said that after they received our
letter they realized that we didn't know about Steiner. I think anyone
attending a Waldorf school needs to accept the fact that they legitimize
Steiner's racism whether they want to acknowledge it or not. I'm incredibly
sick to my stomach knowing that our family did.
Kathy
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 17:45:40 +1100 (EST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Kate=20Booth?= (kateabooth yahoo.com.au)
Subject: Home visits
I was just wondering if anyone has had experience with
class home visits (where the whole class visits each
of their classmates homes over a week or so) and what
the purpose was behind them?
Many thanks Kate
http://movies.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Movies
- Vote for your nominees in our online Oscars pool.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 13:00:42 +0100
From: Sandra Schlick (sandra.schlick balcab.ch)
Subject: Re: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
Hi Kathy
What letter do you talk about? Did you have legitimize the Waldorf Racism even
in a written form? This things make me sick as well, I wished, that all Waldorf
schools would be closed by law.
Sandra
Kathy Harlan wrote:
) I ran into a woman yesterday at the grocery store whose daughter was in my
) daughter's class at the Waldorf school. She related an interesting comment
) to me. Her and her husband had researched Waldorf extremely well before
) enrolling their child. They actually waited a year because they weren't
) sure given the wacky stuff they'd read. Their other school choice didn't
) work out so they ended up enrolling at Waldorf. She said the racism in
) Steiner's writings was one thing that they were extremely bothered by. She
) stated that since they were obviously white they couldn't forsee any direct
) impact on their child and didn't believe that anyone in the school "still
) believed that stuff".
)
) When they saw our daughter enrolled in the class she said they both breathed
) a sigh of relief. "If it didn't bother your family we figured we didn't
) have anything to be concerned about." She said that after they received our
) letter they realized that we didn't know about Steiner. I think anyone
) attending a Waldorf school needs to accept the fact that they legitimize
) Steiner's racism whether they want to acknowledge it or not. I'm incredibly
) sick to my stomach knowing that our family did.
)
) Kathy
)
) _________________________________________________________________
) Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 13:06:33 +0100
From: Sandra Schlick (sandra.schlick balcab.ch)
Subject: Re: The present goals and tasks in Jewish culture
Dear Peter
I have a question - see interlaced below.
Sandra
Peter Zegers wrote:
) Dear critics,
)
) I found some old notes that might be of interest to some of you.
)
) "Judaism has since long become anachronistic, it has no purpose among
) the peoples of today. That it has preserved itself is an error in world
) history which could not fail to have its consequences.' (GA 32, Robert
) Hamerling: 'Homunculus', 1888, s 152f).
)
) http://sektion.goetheanum.ch/Medienstelle/RefHeertschEngl.htm
)
) The Anthroposophist Andreas Heertsch's comment on this quote:
)
) "Here I see a Steiner, who out of the spirit of his time, and youthfully
) [Steiner was 27 at the time he wrote this review] enjoying himself in
) using drastic formulations writes a polemic, that stands in contrast and
) contradiction to what he writes with engagement 13 years later (1901),
) as he writes a number of leading articles for the Newsletter of the
) 'Association against antisemitism', published by his Jewish friend
) Ludwig Jacobowski." And: "While the first quote [the one above], and
) probably much else can be put in its place when seen in its historical
) context, this is not the case with the second quote. 1924, that is one
) year before his death, Rudolf Steiner is asked by construction workers
) of the Goetheanum during one of the series of lectures that he held
) regularly for the workers (GA 353, 8.5.1924) 'Has the *Jewish people*
) fulfilled its mission in the history of humanity?'" [Emphasis added].
Can you give that quote?
) Instead of giving a quote Heertsch paraphrases. According to Heertsch
) Steiner answers by stating his opposition to Jewish nationalism
) (Zionism). He then quotes Steiner again: "'And so the greatest
) misfortune of this 20th century [probably he is referring here to World
) war I] has come from that which the Jews want also, ...' Andreas
) Heertsch continues: "I stress 'also want'. Here Rudolf Steiner
) generalises: He sees the greatest misery coming out of everything that
) is nationalistic, that wants to separate itself off as national. It
) makes no difference to him here whether nationalism is French, English,
) Serbian, German or Jewish. For an individualism, that is on its way to
) new forms of community, every nationalistic separation from humanity in
) general is a step back, that eventually leads to ethnic cleansing and
) bloodshed."
)
) A question that comes to mind is: would Steiner have answered a question
) about the historic mission of the German people by criticizing their
) nationalism? Why would he respond to a specific question with a general
) answer? Why did he think the Jews were so nationalistic in the first
) place? Why did he blame the Jews for World War I?
)
) Heertsch: "If Jewish culture were to disappear through something like
) assimilation, I would consider that to be a definite empoverishment of
) contemporary culture. If Rudolf Steiner were to think so, I would
) contradict him and point out that there
) are other cultures who, in our view, have fulfilled their primary tasks
) in history and we do not get the idea that they should dissolve as a
) people (for instance the cultures of Old Egypt and of Ancient Greece and
) Rome)."
)
) Heertsch also writes: "As an anthroposophist I have a *teleological view
) of the world*, that is, I see development, evolution and try to
) understand its meaning - a view that may appear outdated to a
) descriptive way of looking at history. In this meaning-searching world
) picture, *cultures have special qualities and tasks in the development
) of humanity as a whole*. The chassidic Rabbi Yonassan Gershom made it
) clear to me in a longer exchange of letters: 'You anthroposophists
) basically assume that we Jews are outdated, obsolete because we do not
) see and accept Christ as our Messiah and therefore do not have a task
) any more, but only cling to the past.' To be able to argue with this
) view, *attributed to us not entirely without justice* and also detailed
) by Mr. Stegemann, I would be grateful if you would tell us something of
) the present goals and tasks in Jewish culture. When I express this wish,
) I am sure that this question may not easy to answer, specifically since
) the question may sound as if Jewish culture would need to justify itself
) in some way. Please don't understand my question that way, but take it
) as an expression of real
) interest and the belief that getting to know one another and mutual
) understanding is the best way of overcoming prejudice. Because, as I
) tried to say, I am sure that we can learn much from you [Stegemann]."
) [Emphasis added].
)
) Best,
)
) Peter Zegers
)
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 669
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Spot the difference
By mysplum earthlink.net
Quote from GA 353
By peter_zegers runbox.no
Re: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: Quote from GA 353
By sandra.schlick balcab.ch
RE: Spot the difference
By sufrito53 yahoo.com
Re: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
By peter_zegers runbox.no
Re: Quote from GA 353
By peter_zegers runbox.no
RE: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
By sufrito53 yahoo.com
Re: Quote from GA 353
By sandra.schlick balcab.ch
Re: Quote from GA 353
By peter_zegers runbox.no
Re: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
By jfk3 sprint.ca
Re: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
By jfk3 sprint.ca
Re: Spot the difference
By mysplum earthlink.net
RE: Re: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: Re: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
By peter_zegers runbox.no
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 08:48:35 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Spot the difference
on 3/16/02 1:07 AM, Dan Dugan at dan dandugan.com wrote:
) Walden, you quoted a book blurb,
)
)) 2) "The Roots of Education" by Rudolph Steiner at the same store...
)) ...In such education the child is prepared to become a citizen not
)) only of the earth but of the spiritual world as well.
)
) An appropriate goal for a religious school.
Sharon: The Initiate who attains Intuition, has power over his physical body
so that no current passes through his nerves without his knowledge, he will
have the capacity to work on transforming his body himself, into the Sixth
race. Only those who reach this stage can be a "citizen of those spiritual
worlds which govern and direct his physical body" (Steiner, Theosophy of the
Rosicrucian 22).
Intuition of course is a veiled word, (it can also be termed "world of
reason"), it means Steiner's highest world of his three tiered cosmos which,
apart from the physical world, is divided into three levels, namely:
Imaginative world, world of Inspiration and world of Intuition. I'm pretty
sure that Steiner picked this up from Agrippa (1486-1533). Agrippa was the
main source of ritual magic for Renaissance magicians. Dee and Fludd also
drew heavily from him, they are all considered to be Rosicrucians.(Dee was a
major contributor to Masonry, although his name has been erased from
Freemasonry's history because Dee was too controversial, got into trouble
for being a crook). Agrippa's three worlds were the elemental world, the
celestial world, and the supercelestial world. (Think of the worlds as
circles within circles, then place man at the center.) Steiner wrote about
Agrippa and preached about him. Imagination can also be called the astral or
elemental world, Inspiration can be called Harmonies of the spheres, heaven
world, mental world or Devachan. Different beings live in these 3 worlds or
planes. Gnomes and fairies and other lower beings live in the
elemental/astral/Imaginative world. The highest beings such as angels live
in the world of Intuition, this is also the plane where the Akasha can be
read. Eurythmy and Waldorf are paths to these worlds.
Steiner says there are even higher worlds but they cannot be put into words.
(No doubt Steiner was spiritually advanced enough to visit them!)
Interestingly Goethe made reference to Agrippa in Faust as the black dog.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 15:39:16 +0100
From: Peter Zegers (peter_zegers runbox.no)
Subject: Quote from GA 353
Dear Sandra,
I don't have GA 353 at hand and I would have to go to a library to get
it. So if you don't mind you could get the book yourself and find the
quote. It shouldn't be too hard to find it. Unfortunately I don't have
time to look this up for you.
Best,
Peter Zegers
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 09:48:34 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
on 3/16/02 5:33 PM, Kathy Harlan at waldorf_kh hotmail.com wrote:
She
) stated that since they were obviously white they couldn't forsee any direct
) impact on their child
Sharon: cringe! That's an awful way to think!
and didn't believe that anyone in the school "still
) believed that stuff".
Sharon: sad part is that some of those "in the know" do still think like
this. In the town of our ex-school, after a flurry of letters to the editor
in response to yet another scam article on Waldorf that didn't mention the
"unmentionables", (ie. religious school, parochial school for Anthro,
Rosicrucian mystery school, occult based, etc) one activist quoted some
racist Steiner in her letter. Then an Anthroposophist came into town to meet
with the believers. One woman, who attended the Theosophist school in CA as
a child recommended that it would be a good idea to say that anything bad
that Steiner said should be considered something said when he was not
clairvoyant. Anything that didn't feel good should be considered not of the
spirit. The visiting man just continued to deny Steiner's racism.
The problem is, Steiner's whole system rests on racism, if you retract the
racism, you weaken the religion by showing how fraught with nonsense it is,
then man's striving to become the Sixth race and universal human becomes
problematic. Then you also have the problem of trying to figure out what was
inspired by the spirit and what wasn't. However, I think the woman's
suggestion is a good way out for Anthros. I think they should have the
Sun-Spirit or Steiner whisper into the leadership's ears just like the
Mormons got Jesus to whisper in their leaders' ears to change their racist
doctrine. Instead of whispering in ears, perhaps Anthros could pull a little
Blavatsky trick and write a letter from a spiritual master...could even be
Christian Rosenkreutz! It would be a way to move forward, and heck, if
Anthros would just look to the Mormons they will see that changing dogma has
very little consequence for the run-of-the-mill believers. Next to Islam,
Mormonism is the fastest growing new religious movement, despite the fact
that it's shot through with inconsistencies. Anthro is piddlesticks compared
to Mormonism, Anthro hasn't even reached the size Steiner himself predicted
it would reach by this time.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 15:44:58 +0100
From: Sandra Schlick (sandra.schlick balcab.ch)
Subject: Re: Quote from GA 353
Hi Peter
I understand, but unfortunately, I don't read stuff from racists like
Rudolf Steiner :) And I would even if I looked it up had to read the
whole book, so, I simply don't know the exact source (Page, Title) to
look it up. GA 353 is may be the number of the book in your library, but
I am in Basel - Switzerland, so, I don't have a chance to find that.
Further hints?
Sandra
Peter Zegers wrote:
) Dear Sandra,
)
) I don't have GA 353 at hand and I would have to go to a library to get
) it. So if you don't mind you could get the book yourself and find the
) quote. It shouldn't be too hard to find it. Unfortunately I don't have
) time to look this up for you.
)
) Best,
)
) Peter Zegers
)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 14:53:56 +0000
From: Su (sufrito53 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Spot the difference
mysplum wrote:
snip)
) Interestingly Goethe made reference to Agrippa in Faust as the black
) dog.
)
Hi Sharon,
Do you know why Goethe referred to Agrippa as the Black dog?
I am also wondering if you or others, either Dof's or Critics would be
interested in explaining or summarizing the concepts of
Imagination,Inspiration, and Intuition.
They come up in so much of Steiner's writing. I would be interested in
people's understanding of these entities.
Thanks,
Su
It's not over 'til it's over--Yogi Berra
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 16:23:29 +0100
From: Peter Zegers (peter_zegers runbox.no)
Subject: Re: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
Hi Sharon,
You wrote: "One woman, who attended the Theosophist school in CA as a
child recommended that it would be a good idea to say that anything bad
that Steiner said should be considered something said when he was not
clairvoyant. Anything that didn't feel good should be considered not of
the spirit."
This is a good example of the Steiner-I-know (Waage) phenomenon very
widespread in anthro-circles that Peter S. and I addressed in our second
reply to Waage. If you don't like it, ignore seems to be their way of
dealing with unpleasant things (that is probably why the Shoah is not
part of the curriculum in many Waldorf schools).
Best,
Peter Zegers
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 16:40:19 +0100
From: Peter Zegers (peter_zegers runbox.no)
Subject: Re: Quote from GA 353
Dear Sandra,
I am a bit puzzled by your remarks. So you want me to give you more
infromation where to find the quote from Steiner, but then you don't
want to read it? This is not very consistent. Anyway, the title of the
book is: Die Geschichte der Menschheit und die Weltanschauungen der
Kulturv?lker. Band VII. Siebzehn Vortr?ge, Dornach 1. M?rz bis 25. Juni
1924. (Rudolf Steiner Verlag: Dornach 1988). The quote is from the
lecture of May 8, 1924. It shouldn't be too hard to find the book in
Basel.
I surely want to read this book sometime, but not within a couple of
months. It is too bad you don't want to read Steiner because you could
send us interesting quotes from the books you read (how would we know
that Steiner was an antisemite and racist in the first place if nobody
had read his books and lectures?). Well, that is what I am trying to do
whenever I find something of interest.
Best,
Peter Zegers
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 15:40:43 +0000
From: Su (sufrito53 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
Peter Zegers wrote:
) Hi Sharon,
)
) You wrote: "One woman, who attended the Theosophist school in CA as a
) child recommended that it would be a good idea to say that anything bad
) that Steiner said should be considered something said when he was not
) clairvoyant. Anything that didn't feel good should be considered not of
) the spirit."
)
) This is a good example of the Steiner-I-know (Waage) phenomenon very
) widespread in anthro-circles that Peter S. and I addressed in our second
) reply to Waage. If you don't like it, ignore seems to be their way of
) dealing with unpleasant things (that is probably why the Shoah is not
) part of the curriculum in many Waldorf schools).
)
) Best,
)
) Peter Zegers
)
This is a good example of cognitive dissonance phenomenon, that one
encounters with any person or ideology that one follows, when something
comes up that "doesn't fit" with the leader, philosopher, spirit,,etc,
etc.
You make up a good excuse for the "mistake" of the leader, ideology, or
dissonant situation, so that it becomes part of the belief system, or at
least acceptable. So Steiner wasn't in his clairvoyant mode. Geez.
Sort of like the flying saucer group who expected one to come and take
them all away one night. When it didn't happen, and of course the
followers had sold all their possessions and were left with nothing to
go home to, the leader told them that that was the intent, and part of
the plan of the flying saucer...Wonder what happened to them...
The dissonance was made acceptable by an "excuse".
It's not over 'til it's over--Yogi Berra
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 16:46:28 +0100
From: Sandra Schlick (sandra.schlick balcab.ch)
Subject: Re: Quote from GA 353
Hi Peter
Yes, you're right, we should know, what we are talking about. The way you
give me the citations makes it possible for me to look it up, but the
first way made it impossible, or better, it would make very much work to
find it out. So, clearly stated: do you believe that he was a racist or
not? What I see up to now is, that he was a racist.
Sandra
Peter Zegers wrote:
) Dear Sandra,
)
) I am a bit puzzled by your remarks. So you want me to give you more
) infromation where to find the quote from Steiner, but then you don't
) want to read it? This is not very consistent. Anyway, the title of the
) book is: Die Geschichte der Menschheit und die Weltanschauungen der
) Kulturv?lker. Band VII. Siebzehn Vortr?ge, Dornach 1. M?rz bis 25. Juni
) 1924. (Rudolf Steiner Verlag: Dornach 1988). The quote is from the
) lecture of May 8, 1924. It shouldn't be too hard to find the book in
) Basel.
)
) I surely want to read this book sometime, but not within a couple of
) months. It is too bad you don't want to read Steiner because you could
) send us interesting quotes from the books you read (how would we know
) that Steiner was an antisemite and racist in the first place if nobody
) had read his books and lectures?). Well, that is what I am trying to do
) whenever I find something of interest.
)
) Best,
)
) Peter Zegers
)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 16:52:29 +0100
From: Peter Zegers (peter_zegers runbox.no)
Subject: Re: Quote from GA 353
Dear Sandra,
Please read Anthroposophy and its defenders (online at:
http://www.waldorfcritics.org/active/articles/anthroposophy_criticism.htm)
and The Janus Face of Anthroposophy (online at:
http://www.waldorfcritics.org/active/articles/JanusFaceOfAnthroposophy.html)
for my position of Steiner and racism.
Best,
Peter Zegers
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 14:01:40 -0500
From: "Lubert Das" (jfk3 sprint.ca)
Subject: Re: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
----- Original Message -----
From: "Su" (sufrito53 yahoo.com)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2002 10:40 AM
Subject: RE: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
)
) Peter Zegers wrote:
) ) Hi Sharon,
) )
) ) You wrote: "One woman, who attended the Theosophist school in CA as a
) ) child recommended that it would be a good idea to say that anything bad
) ) that Steiner said should be considered something said when he was not
) ) clairvoyant. Anything that didn't feel good should be considered not of
) ) the spirit."
) )
) ) This is a good example of the Steiner-I-know (Waage) phenomenon very
) ) widespread in anthro-circles that Peter S. and I addressed in our
second
) ) reply to Waage. If you don't like it, ignore seems to be their way of
) ) dealing with unpleasant things (that is probably why the Shoah is not
) ) part of the curriculum in many Waldorf schools).
Su:
) This is a good example of cognitive dissonance phenomenon, that one
) encounters with any person or ideology that one follows, when something
) comes up that "doesn't fit" with the leader, philosopher, spirit,,etc,
) etc.
)
) You make up a good excuse for the "mistake" of the leader, ideology, or
) dissonant situation, so that it becomes part of the belief system, or at
) least acceptable. So Steiner wasn't in his clairvoyant mode. Geez.
)
) Sort of like the flying saucer group who expected one to come and take
) them all away one night. When it didn't happen, and of course the
) followers had sold all their possessions and were left with nothing to
) go home to, the leader told them that that was the intent, and part of
) the plan of the flying saucer...Wonder what happened to them...
)
) The dissonance was made acceptable by an "excuse".
Lubert scrawled:
Hi Su,
If this is the book by Leon Feistinger et al., "When Prophecy
Fails...", if it is still in your possession, ( I sent my copy on to my own
dyed-in-the-wool Anthro loons, to no effect), and if I recall correctly,
they list a number of points in the Intro, setting up their thesis, might
you possibly post those to the list. I found them helpful both in trying to
understand RS' shift from flogging his spiritual self-help stuff (PoF...)
around Europe, his failure to get any significant audience (hegemony), and
then the justifications made for the failure, following which it was time
to set up schools(proselyting); and his latter-day followers'
justifications of RS and their own failings. I nearly laughed my arse off
about the "mysterious hitchhiker" story: way too many times did I see the
same receptiveness to such low-grade mental-trash (ex: midsummer Anthro
workgroup meeting, thunderstorm, power outage, some genius whispers about
"*dark forces* around trying to prevent...", and they ALL take the outward
appearance of Solemn Determination to go on with the meeting...following a
prayer; no doubt it improves with every retelling, downright Wagnerian or
Tolkienish by now).
It never fails to amaze me that so many of these folks are so adamant
in refusing to examine their real historical roots, to see that they are so
far from alone in both method, content, and overall process (Feistinger
lists a couple of groups I had never heard of ). But I'm guessing that's
what is partly meant by the excuse of a "method without content": a tree
without roots, soil, etc (albeit a pretty damned lonely tree, since for
them there are no other REAL trees, let alone a forest, which might explain
in part their problem with perspective)...not at all concerned, except in
the most facile of idealizations, with the actual historical record
(tainted by Marxist/Materialist method) of real human beings. They get
their history from above, from the pulpit: middle-class idealists waiting
in the wings (No, no problem with either middle-class, or with idealists,
except when their intent is power; there are so many other better uses to
which they could, and quite possibly have, put it).
If it is not available to you lemme know, I'll keep poking around in the
piles of notes, gotta be somewhere...
In Bug-Eyed Disbelief (though I ought to know better by now),
Lubert
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 14:24:15 -0500
From: "Lubert Das" (jfk3 sprint.ca)
Subject: Re: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
----- Original Message -----
From: "Su" (sufrito53 yahoo.com)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2002 10:40 AM
Subject: RE: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
Lubert:
Su, sorry, I was unaware of Festinger's (correct spelling) work previous to
"When Prophecy Fails...", on which it is based. Please ignore my request.
http://www.freeminds.org/psych/propfail.htm
http://www.colorado.edu/communication/meta-discourses/Theory/festinger.htm
http://www.colorado.edu/communication/meta-discourses/theory.htm
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 16:53:29 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Spot the difference
on 3/17/02 6:53 AM, Su at sufrito53 yahoo.com wrote:
)
) mysplum wrote:
) snip)
)) Interestingly Goethe made reference to Agrippa in Faust as the black
)) dog.
))
) Hi Sharon,
)
) Do you know why Goethe referred to Agrippa as the Black dog?
Sharon: Hi Su! Agrippa was not beloved by most of his contemporaries because
they considered him to be a black magician. Many occultists knew better,
Agrippa was merely an occultist like all the rest so his persecution was a
bit unfair. Anyway, people said he was followed by a black dog, a code for
black magic. Goethe has a reference to Agrippa in Faust which was a story
adored by Steiner. Since they all got a lot of their mumbo jumbo from
Agrippa I presume they were fond of him. One can never tell with occultists,
sometimes they are deliberately leading you astray, sometimes not.
Did you know that there was supposed to be a real live magician/occultist
named Faust? I think he lived in the 1400s...Trithemius mentioned him in a
letter written in 1507. Faust supposedly had a horse and dog spirit follow
him around. Some say he was a crook and a drunkard who studied magic at
Cracow. To others he became the model of the medieval magician. Lots of
people wrote about him, but Goethe's tale is the most famous.
)
) I am also wondering if you or others, either Dof's or Critics would be
) interested in explaining or summarizing the concepts of
) Imagination,Inspiration, and Intuition.
)
) They come up in so much of Steiner's writing. I would be interested in
) people's understanding of these entities.
Sharon: It would be a great discussion. They are Steiner's higher realms
that you reach by following his path. He is quick to point out that the
words mean something very different than their usual connotations. The world
of Imagination is full of colorful beings. The opaque beings are lower
entities, the transparent ones are higher entities. In Waldorf children
paint the transparent ones as a training. On future Venus (I think it's
Venus) people will communicate in colors and look like these beings or
something bizarre like that..it's all so wacky it's hard to keep tabs on it
all. I have some pages on Imagination, Inspiration and Intuition that I'll
try to dig up this week and post.
I'd also like an in depth discussion on group souls, I've got some wacky
stuff about strands of lions going up to the group soul for lions which
exists in one of these 3 realms...(shaking my head).
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 22:08:33 -0500
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: RE: Re: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
Peter Zegers (peter_zegers runbox.no) wrote:
)Hi Sharon,
)
)You wrote: "One woman, who attended the Theosophist school in CA as a
)child recommended that it would be a good idea to say that anything bad
)that Steiner said should be considered something said when he was not
)clairvoyant. Anything that didn't feel good should be considered not of
)the spirit."
)
)This is a good example of the Steiner-I-know (Waage) phenomenon very
)widespread in anthro-circles that Peter S. and I addressed in our second
)reply to Waage. If you don't like it, ignore seems to be their way of
)dealing with unpleasant things (that is probably why the Shoah is not
)part of the curriculum in many Waldorf schools).
)
)Best,
)
)Peter Zegers
==================================================================
There should not be things like keeping what doesn't dislike to
critics and leave the rest. There is nothing to change. If some
individuals disagree with general topics, like evolution, they are
free to go and find some alternative 'vegetarian' view.
No replies.
--
__________________________________________________________________
Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas.
Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop Netscape!
http://shopnow.netscape.com/
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at
http://webmail.netscape.com/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 12:46:21 +0100
From: Peter Zegers (peter_zegers runbox.no)
Subject: RE: Re: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
Percedol,
I am surprized you are still here. Your cryptic message was: "There
should not be things like keeping what doesn't dislike to critics and
leave the rest. There is nothing to change. If some individuals disagree
with general topics, like evolution, they are free to go and find some
alternative 'vegetarian' view. No replies."
I take it that you are not a vegetarian then. If I understand you
correctly, you are saying that one either accepts the teachings of a
guru wholeheartedly or one leaves it behind. The teachings of gurus are
written in stone and can't be challenged: no discussion allowed. Are you
taking part in the discussions or are you just going to send us your
comments from the sidelines every now and then?
Peter Zegers
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 670
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
By mysplum earthlink.net
Identity
By Percedol netscape.net
Identity 2
By Percedol netscape.net
Identity 3
By Percedol netscape.net
Admin: Re: Identity
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Sharing the news and greetings
By mysplum earthlink.net
RE: Admin: Re: Identity
By Percedol netscape.net
Re: Home visits
By momof2gals mindspring.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 08:52:10 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
on 3/17/02 7:08 PM, Percedol netscape.net at Percedol netscape.net wrote:
) There should not be things like keeping what doesn't dislike to critics and
) leave the rest. There is nothing to change. If some individuals disagree with
) general topics, like evolution, they are free to go and find some alternative
) 'vegetarian' view.
) No replies.
)
Sharon: YuP! This is basically what the visiting Anthroposophist said to the
Theosophist who was feeling uneasy about some of Steiner's racist works.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 11:35:33 -0500
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: Identity
No-off list? (No translation available)
Ernesto Galli della Loggia, L???identit?? italiana, Bologna, Il
Mulino, 1998, 171 p.
??
??
??
Ce livre d???Ernesto Galli della Loggia inaugure une collection du
m??me nom aux ??ditions Mulino, et s???attache ?? ??num??rer, en
faisant preuve d???une grande ??rudition, les ??l??ments qui
caract??risent la politique, la soci??t?? et la culture italienne.
Jouant de l???ambivalence de la notion d???identit??, que l???auteur
ne d??finit pas, la r??flexion oscille entre une description de
l???Italie vue par elle-m??me, et une tendance sous-jacente ??
consid??rer les objets dont il est question comme immuables et
exclusivement italiens.
Dans le premier chapitre, l???auteur rappelle que ????l???Italie pour
des raisons naturelles a ??t?? pr??dispos??e ?? devenir un terrain de
rencontres???? (p. 8) et a subi des influences diversement
distribu??es, notamment dans l???axe Nord-Sud. La g??ographie de la
P??ninsule est vue comme une cl?? pour comprendre son histoire, et
l???auteur, consid??rant particuli??rement la barri??re apennine,
propose de remplacer les deux axes sus-cit??s par le bin??me
Occident-Orient. Mais la suite de ses r??flexions, visant ??
d??montrer que les diversit??s, ????loin de contredire les
interd??pendances et l???int??gration, en sont les pr??misses
n??cessaires???? (p. 17), est nettement moins convaincante.
L???auteur s???appuie en effet sur des assertions non v??rifiables,
comme ????l???accessibilit?? humaine et la perm??abilit??
culturelle???? du peuple italien (p. 19) qui auraient produit des
capacit??s d???adaptation, une propension au syncr??tisme, une
mobilit?? d???esprit, qui seraien!
t un trait de l???identit?? du pays, forg??e en r??action aux
invasions. Les deux caract??ristiques unificatrices de la P??ninsule
indiqu??es par l???auteur sont sa pauvret?? et sa beaut??. La
pauvret?? a notamment marqu?? l???anthropologie de ses habitants, en
leur donnant une ????capacit?? manipulatrice et d???imagination????,
la ????ruse???? et le fameux ????art de s???arranger???? italiens (p.
24-25). Toutes ces remarques ne sont appuy??es par aucune analyse
historique de ces qualit??s, et bien souvent la citation d???un
voyageur c??l??bre (Vidal de la Blache, Goethe) suffit pour toute
d??monstration.
Le chapitre suivant se veut historique, et analyse l???h??ritage
latin et catholique. L???auteur explique que Rome a l??gu?? ??
l???Italie la croyance en une unit??, mais aussi l???image d???une
Italie urbaine, divis??e en ????cent villes????. La conscience d???un
pass?? illustre a donn?? lieu ?? une politique de grandeur inadapt??e
(p. 34). Quant ?? l???Eglise, elle a donn?? la foi commune ?? tous
les Italiens, et le langage de la ????pietas chr??tienne???? (p. 45).
La fin du chapitre voit l???auteur se dresser contre les
cons??quences n??gatives de la Contre-R??forme, qui ont conduit ??
occulter les r??les positifs jou??s par l???Eglise. On remarque que
la vision de l???histoire de l???auteur tend ?? aplatir les
singularit??s de chaque ??poque pour constater des dysfonctionnements
permanents et immuables??: il explique notamment que la langue latine
et le droit romain ont marqu?? de leur empreinte la politique??: la
loi est per??ue comme d??tach??e de la r??alit?? et donc ho!
stile aux particuliers et surtout ?? la classe populaire. Mais il est
??vident que les critiques des Italiens des ann??es 1990 ne sont pas
comparables ?? celles des masses analphab??tes des si??cles
ant??rieurs.
Dans le troisi??me chapitre, l???auteur nous dresse un r??sum?? des
probl??mes li??s ?? la construction de l???Etat national italien,
voulant arriver au fait que ????la g??ographie de l???Etat et la
g??ographie de la soci??t?? ne se rencontrent pas???? (p. 81). Il se
concentre sur les modalit??s de r??alisation de l???unit?? italienne,
d???un point de vue g??opolitique. A partir du lieu commun qui
constate l???absence d???un centre d??cisionnel, il distingue un axe
g??ographique tyrrh??nien Turin-Florence-Naples, qui donne au pays
les impulsions ??tatiques. Il passe ensuite ?? la question
m??ridionale et ?? la fracture jamais combl??e entre le Nord des
communes libres et le Sud des barons, ????la c??sure entre identit??
nationale et identit?? italienne???? (p. 65). Au XXe si??cle, il
remarque un deuxi??me axe, le triangle Ravenne-Venise-Milan, qui
propose les nouvelles offres politiques??: socialisme, fascisme et
catholicisme politique (p. 78). Mais ces r??gions n???ont pas su!
se donner une forme ??tatique. On reste surpris de l???explication
que Galli della Loggia donne pour justifier l???incapacit?? de ces
forces vives du pays ?? conqu??rir l???Etat??: elles se seraient
heurt??es ?? ????l?????taticit?? (statualit??)
pi??montaise-napolitaine (?), g??r??e par une classe politique et
administrative d???origine m??ridionale???? (p. 80).
Le quatri??me chapitre s???inscrit au c??ur des d??bats actuels sur
l???identit?? italienne, en sondant plus particuli??rement la
question de l???individualisme et du familismo des Italiens. Mais
l???auteur ne fait que reprendre des citations c??l??bres (Leopardi,
Machiavel, Cattaneo). Il fait un tout monolytique de la ????structure
familiale-oligarchique-corporative???? (p. 102), accus??e
d?????touffer l???Etat. Bien que refusant de souscrire aux th??ories
simplifi??es de Banfield et Putnam, qui condamnent sans appel le
familismo amoral des Italiens comme contraire ?? toute culture
civique (E. C. Banfield, Le basi morali di una societ?? arretrata,
Bologna, Il Mulino, 1976 et R. D. Putnam, La tradizione civica delle
regioni italiane, Milano, Mondadori, 1993), il retombe dans les
consid??rations fatalistes sur l???organisation oligarchique de
l???aristocratie et de la bourgeoisie italiennes, notamment en
politique, et reproche ?? la soci??t?? italienne de n???avoir pas su
??vol!
uer vers son mod??le id??al de modernit??, ????la vocation libre et
volontaire???? (p. 107).
Galli della Loggia revient sur cette question du retard politique
italien dans le cinqui??me chapitre, o?? il ??voque l???absence
historique de l???Etat. Il attaque tout particuli??rement les
penseurs et intellectuels italiens, responsables, depuis la chute de
l???Empire romain, d???avoir diffus?? l???id??e de d??clin et
d???absence ou vide du pouvoir politique??: Rome est devenue par leur
faute le ????pass?? qui ne passe pas???? des Italiens (p. 117).
D???autre part, les intellectuels ont toujours ??t?? hostiles ??
l???institution eccl??siastique. Les fractures entre les
intellectuels et le peuple, ainsi qu???entre l???Etat et l???Eglise
seraient la raison de la non int??gration des masses dans l???Etat.
Au XIXe si??cle, De Sanctis nous l??gue une analyse qui ????superpose
l???identit?? politique italienne ?? la tradition
anti-eccl??siastique et nationale???? (p. 134). Galli della Loggia
accuse cette ligne interpr??tative d???avoir occult?? les deux
probl??mes majeurs selon l!
ui??: celui de l???absence de tradition ??tatique d???un c??t??, et
celui d???une soci??t?? italienne oligarchique de l???autre.
Dans le dernier chapitre, centr?? sur l???Italie unitaire, il
constate l???absence de modernit??, mais refuse de l???expliquer par
le manque de d??mocratie. Il ajoute ainsi une nouvelle lumi??re ?? sa
th??orie de ????la mort de la patrie???? le 8 septembre 1943 (E.
Galli della Loggia, La morte della patria, Roma-Bari, Laterza,
1996)??: la R??sistance??, en mettant au centre de son image de la
patrie l???id??al d??mocratique, ??chouait encore une fois ??
comprendre le c??ur du probl??me italien. Galli della Loggia s???en
prend lui ?? l???????hyperpolitisation???? (p. 142) des d??cisions,
qui sont ?? l???origine des pathologies italiennes??: ????beaucoup de
politique et peu d???Etat, beaucoup d???id??ologie et peu de culture
de l???Etat???? (p. 143). La modernit?? italienne n???est autre que
corporatisme, familismo, ??vasion fiscale, ill??galit?? de masse.
Ceci n???a pu ??tre que renforc?? par l???absence d???une ??lite
administrative, culturelle et sociale autonome vis-??-vis d!
e la politique. La confiance plac??e par la soci??t?? en l???Eglise
et en les Carabinieri montre par contraste le vide de l???Etat et la
????faiblesse d???identit?? nationale???? (p. 154)??. C???est encore
une fois l???absence d???une composante religieuse de la dimension
??tatique qui est regrett??e, alors que les valeurs religieuses,
identifi??es sans h??sitations aux valeurs publiques, sont les plus
r??pandues dans la population. En somme les conclusions du livre
d???Ernesto Galli della Loggia semblent s???inscrire dans la ligne
n??o-guelfe, ??tant donn??e l???importance politique et sociale
attribu??e au catholicisme.
Au terme de la lecture de L???identit?? italiana, on ne peut pas dire
d???avoir ??t?? ??clair??s sur la signification exacte du terme,
devenu d??sormais fourre-tout, d?????????identit?? italienne????. On
esp??rait au moins lire une introduction ?? la s??rie de
mini-monographies publi??es dans la collection dirig??e par Galli della
Loggia, mais la nature et la justification des livres qui vont suivre
ne sont jamais mentionn??es au cours du texte. Rien ne nous explique
le projet de l???auteur, qui, rien qu????? la lecture des titres de
la s??rie (Giordano Bruno, Loreto, I braccianti, La mamma, I
comunisti, La pasta e la pizza???), semble priv?? d???un v??ritable
fil directeur.
??
Laura Fournier
--
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 11:39:12 -0500
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: Identity 2
Dire "Patria", oggi, per noi ha un senso?
http://www.educational.rai.it/mat/dr/risp/galli01.asp
La parola ???patria???, come altre ??? ???nazione???, ???identit??
nazionale??? ??? ?? tornata in auge in Italia negli ultimi anni e, in
particolare, negli ultimi mesi. Complici, una serie di circostanze
politiche e, insieme, una serie di riletture storiografiche. Noi,
oggi, vogliamo capire cosa significhi la parola ???patria??? per un
italiano del 2001. E cosa abbia significato di volta in volta nelle
epoche precedenti. Di necessit??, partiamo dalla ???querelle???
storico-politica nata intorno al discorso pronunciato dal presidente
della Repubblica in visita a Cefalonia, sui luoghi del massacro di
soldati italiani effettuato dai tedeschi all'indomani dell'8
settembre del '43. Una ???querelle??? della quale lei, professor
Galli della Loggia, ?? stato protagonista. E rispetto alla quale lei,
professor Schiavone, credo abbia una posizione assai diversa. Volete
riassumerci i vostri punti di vista?
Galli della Loggia. Per la verit??, quella del Presidente della
Repubblica non ?? stata una ???querelle???. ?? accaduto semplicemente
che il Presidente della Repubblica in diverse occasioni e in breve
spazio di mesi si sia dichiarato contrario a un' interpretazione
storiografica circa i fatti del '43-45 in Italia, che pu?? essere
riassunta, e viene riassunta abitualmente, nella dizione ???morte
della Patria???.
Ora, siccome io ho scritto un libro che, appunto, segue questa
interpretazione storiografica, ho fatto osservare che non mi sembrava
appropriato che il Presidente della Repubblica si esprimesse a favore
o contro delle interpretazioni storiografiche e che si servisse per
farlo della sua alta carica. Penso che le alte cariche politiche non
debbano favorire alcune interpretazioni a danno di altre, non ?? loro
compito.
Anche se mi rendo conto naturalmente che, qui, abbiamo a che fare con
un nodo di avvenimenti dalla grandissima rilevanza politica.
Penso che sia del tutto lecito per ogni italiano adottare
l'interpretazione che preferisca e quindi mi sembra discutibile che
il Presidente della Repubblica si pronunci ufficialmente contro
alcune.
Dopo di che si apre il grande problema, nel merito, appunto, di cosa
successe in Italia tra il '43 e il '45. E questo ?? il problema che
vede divisi gli studiosi: c'?? chi, come il sottoscritto, pensa che
l?? ci sia stato un punto di frattura fortissimo nel rapporto tra gli
italiani e lo Stato nazionale. E vorrei sottolineare che, quando si
parla di ???patria???, a mio giudizio resta al centro del discorso
l'elemento dello Stato, della statualit??: ???patria??? ?? un
concetto politico, non ?? un concetto etnico, almeno questo credo
debba essere mantenuto fermo.
E c'?? invece chi, colleghi autorevoli e altrettanto informati dei
fatti, sostengono invece che c'?? stata, s??, questa frattura
determinata dall'8 settembre, nel rapporto tra italiani e Stato e
nazione, per?? essa ?? stata in larga parte sanata, rimarginata dagli
eventi successivi, in particolare dalla Resistenza. E su questo c'??
una discussione aperta che, probabilmente, continuer?? ancora a lungo.
Schiavone. Io credo che in questo piccolo scambio di idee che avete
avuto con il Presidente della Repubblica tu avessi, Ernesto,
sostanzialmente ragione su una questione: quando hai rivendicato il
fatto che non tocca alla Presidenza della Repubblica intervenire nel
merito di un dibattito storiografico.
Questo punto lo condivido. D'altro canto, ?? pur vero, e tu stesso lo
riconosci, che vi ?? una esigenza legittima e del tutto giustificata
che muove il Presidente Ciampi ed ?? quella di cercare di usare la
sua carica per ravvivare l'identit?? civile del Paese. Identit??
civile debole. Debole e fragile.
Fragile perch??? Per ragioni molto lontane nella storia d'Italia e
anche, e su questo avremo modo di intrattenerci rapidamente pi??
avanti, per ragioni pi?? legate al cinquantennio della storia
repubblicana.
Tu, dal punto di vista della formulazione lessicale, riprendi, come
hai pi?? volte detto, la frase di Satta. E la tua formulazione coglie
un problema storiografico, storico. Io credo che questa debolezza
congenita dell' identit?? civile italiana, in questi cinquant'anni,
sia dovuta a ragioni anche successive alle vicende del '43-'45 e
credo che vi sia una ragione specifica se questo tema si ??
riproposto adesso.
La ragione, sinteticamente, ?? questa. Io credo che in questi
cinquant'anni di storia repubblicana, quel poco di identit?? civile
che si ?? riusciti a mantenere nel Paese dipendesse molto dal lavoro
intellettuale, culturale, di orientamento dei due grandi partiti di
massa: il Pci e la Dc. E che la crisi dei grandi partiti di massa
abbia portato l'opinione pubblica a mettersi direttamente in rapporto
con la fragilit?? dello Stato, senza pi?? questo anello intermedio,
questo schermo di protezione.
Galli della Loggia. Se capisco bene, tu dici, appunto, che
l'appartenenza politica faceva aggio sull'appartenenza
civico-nazionale.
Schiavone. Senza dubbio. Ma tu sai bene che l'appartenenza ai partiti
non era solo una appartenenza politica, era una appartenenza???
Galli della Loggia: Ideologica, a 360 gradi.
Schiavone. Culturale, a 360 gradi, ed etica. E aggiungiamo un altro
elemento: l'educazione civile che veniva trasmessa all'opinione
pubblica italiana attraverso questi partiti era, per certi versi,
povera di contenuti nazionali, perch?? entrambi i partiti si
ispiravano a ideologie fortemente sovra-nazionali o de-nazionali: la
Chiesa, il marxismo.
Galli della Loggia. Quello che tu dici ?? una conferma che accolgo in
pieno dell'idea, da me pi?? volte sostenuta, che, per l'appunto,
l'Italia che esce dalla Resistenza ?? un'Italia che, per molte
ragioni naturalmente, ha una debolissima idea di ???patria???, di
nazione, ha una cultura nazionale debolissima, se non addirittura
evanescente.
Schiavone. Concordo. Ecco, in questa debolezza dell'Italia che usciva
dal '43-'45 c'era quello che tu chiami ???la morte della patria???. E
c'erano anche???
Galli della Loggia. La sconfitta del fascismo.
Schiavone. C'erano anche molte cose pi?? antiche. Ripeto: accoglierei
la tua categoria se fossimo in grado di proiettarla su uno sfondo
storico molto pi?? lungo.
Iris Levi. Di "patria" per secoli, prima del Risorgimento, parlavano
solo artisti e intellettuali , da Dante in poi. ?? stato quindi, a
lungo, come sostengono alcuni storici, un concetto elitario? O, come
sostengono altri storici, la lingua, l'italiano, cementava dal Medio
Evo una comunit?? pi?? ampia?
Galli della Loggia: Qui credo che si debba, appunto, ribadire una
distinzione fondamentale. L'"identit?? italiana" pu?? riferirsi ad
almeno due millenni o un millennio e mezzo di storia: l'Italia come
cultura, antropologia, letteratura, come cultura diffusa, ?? esistita
ben prima che sia esistito lo stato nazionale. A mio giudizio, per??,
si pu?? usare la parola ???patria??? soltanto da quando c'??,
appunto, un movimento che mira alla costituzione dello Stato
nazionale: cio??, a risalire il pi?? indietro possibile, dalla fine
del Settecento in avanti. Non direi che Machiavelli o Dante si siano
sentiti italiani in questo senso. Tanto pi?? Dante, che come ?? noto
aderiva all'idea imperiale, un'idea in cui, certo, all'Italia
spettava una funzione particolare???
Schiavone: Era un soggetto.
Galli della Loggia: Era un soggetto, insieme con altri. Per
Machiavelli, forse, si pu?? discutere di pi??. Ma, insomma, di
un'idea di ???patria??? italiana si pu?? parlare dalla fine del
Settecento in poi. Invece l'idea di Italia ?? un fatto storico che
risale ai primissimi secoli successivi alla caduta dell'Impero Romano
d'Occidente. Addirittura c'?? chi dice che esistesse gi?? in epoca
romana. Per??, appunto, io manterrei questa distinzione tra identit??
italiana e identit?? nazionale. Identit?? italiana ?? un'idea molto
pi?? ampia, identit?? nazionale implica l'elemento della statualit??.
Schiavone: S??, questa distinzione ?? importante. E, se diamo
all'espressione "identit?? italiana" un significato politico ,
nazionale, prima del Settecento ?? difficile parlarne.
E' pur vero che l'Italia ?? stata anche il paese che ha avuto il
processo di identificazione pi?? lungo nella storia dell'Occidente,
pi?? lungo anche dei Greci, e questo ha avuto un peso nella nostra
storia. L'identit?? dell'Italia romana, secondo questa formula che
abbiamo introdotto Andrea Giardina e io, certo era una identit??
incompiuta, e questa incompiutezza s'??, in qualche modo, trasferita
poi nel Medio Evo.
Io credo che ci sia stata ??? e mi piacerebbe che i nostri
ascoltatori questo lo considerassero un fatto centrale ??? una
formazione progressiva di un carattere italiano, e quindi di una
identit?? italiana, molto precedente alla formazione di una identit??
politica italiana. E credo che noi, oggi, su questo dovremmo far leva.
Oggi, a far leva sugli aspetti che hanno caratterizzato la nostra
identit?? politica, nel senso di costruzione dello Stato, ci troviamo
in difficolt??. Mentre per ravvivare l'identit?? civile del Paese,
dovremmo giocare su questi contenuti di identit?? italiana che sono i
precipitati di una storia lunghissima. Certo non sempre esaltante.
Alcuni di questi contenuti possono non piacerci, ma essi sono
comunque il condensato, il precipitato, la cristallizzazione di una
storia lunghissima, dentro la quale ci sono cose belle e importanti.
Non so se possiamo parlare di una ??lite, certo la percezione di
questa identit?? deve molto all'elaborazione culturale che ha
accompagnato la nostra storia d'Italia e che, certo, non ?? diventata
mai coscienza di massa. Opera di una ??lite la cui forza culturale
poi, per??, aveva una capacit?? di irradiazione dentro e fuori il
Paese.
Galli della Loggia: Forse qui c'?? da ricordare che una nostre
caratteristiche specifiche ?? la fortissima identit?? delle singole
parti dell'Italia: delle citt??. E questo, naturalmente, rende pi??
difficile la percezione dell'unit??.
Schiavone: Questo crea il grande problema, Ernesto, della quadratura
del cerchio della storia d'Italia: nel momento in cui le identit??
comunali e regionali si affermavano con pi?? forza, tanto pi?? era
difficile quadrare il cerchio e costruire l'unit??. Il problema sul
quale si ?? rotto la testa Machiavelli e in qualche modo, in modo
pi?? pessimistico, Guicciardini . Il municipalismo, se da un lato
determinava quel fiorire straordinario di civilt?? e di cultura
comunale che ha rimesso in moto la storia d'Europa, dalla rivoluzione
urbana all'Umanesimo e al Rinascimento, d'altro lato era un freno
alla costruzione di un'unit?? cui arrivavano pi?? facilmente altre
comunit?? nelle quali questo fiorire locale era meno forte. Perch??
la civilt?? urbana aveva radici pi?? deboli. E questo ?? uno dei
grandi nodi insoluti della storia d'Italia che ci portiamo dietro.
Galli della Loggia: E che abbiamo anche davanti oggi. Il nodo che ??
alla base di tutto questo fermento federalista: il tentativo di
mettere insieme Stato nazionale e identit?? locali molto forti.
Schiavone: Identit?? locali che, nel momento in cui il Paese cresce,
riaffiorano con forza.
Galli della Loggia: Ma, a proposito del federalismo, c'?? da dire che
in Italia pi?? che le identit?? regionali sono stati forti le
identit?? comunali: la citt?? e il suo contado. Identit?? regionali
forti sono due o tre, forse: c'?? una identit?? veneta, una identit??
toscana, il resto sono identit?? sub-regionali, provinciali. Il
federalismo regionale pu?? essere per molte realt?? una camicia di
forza.
Valerio Biagi. Cosa significava "patria" per i parlamentari che il 17
marzo del 1861 ratificarono la nascita del nuovo Regno?
Galli della Loggia. Significava innanzitutto il compimento di un
sogno che aveva impregnato le biografie personali di moltissimi di
questi italiani convenuti a Torino e che erano stati, nelle
rispettive regioni, i protagonisti del movimento risorgimentale. E
rappresentava, altres??, il compimento di un sogno secolare
dell'intellettualit?? italiana. L'Italia per secoli e secoli aveva
visto sostanzialmente due grandi poteri politici: il potere politico
della Chiesa e il potere politico del Sacro romano impero, che si era
poi, diciamo cos??, trasformato in un'egemonia politica dell'Austria,
e precedentemente in un'egemonia politica della Spagna.
Per la prima volta il potere politico italiano ritornava nelle mani
di italiani che non erano, appunto, membri della Chiesa cattolica.
Per la prima volta nasceva un potere politico italiano in forme, tra
l'altro, consensuali.
Schiavone: Anche se con un consenso molto ristretto.
Galli della Loggia: Per?? gli ordinamenti liberali ??? L'Italia era
un Paese libero, una patria libera non solo dal dominio straniero.
Nei limiti del liberalismo ottocentesco, notabilare e censitario era
un Paese che lasciava aperto un cammino di libert?? che nei decenni
successivi, fino al fascismo, sarebbe stato compiuto.
Dal punto di vista del bilancio storiografico, penso che il
compimento dell'unit?? nazionale sia stato il fatto pi?? importante
accaduto agli italiani, alle singole biografie, degli italiani nati
dopo il 1860. Lo Stato nazionale ha significato un ampliamento della
sfera della libert?? e della ricchezza degli italiani che
difficilmente, altrimenti, ci sarebbe stata .
E dobbiamo conservare il ricordo di quello che avvenne quel giorno di
marzo del 1861, la memoria di questa svolta decisiva della nostra
storia.
Schiavone: Guardando retrospettivamente a questi due secoli di storia
italiana, il XIX e il XX secolo, non possiamo nasconderci che il
processo di unificazione del Paese si ?? svolto in quello che, a me,
appare sempre di pi?? come il secolo ???peggiore??? della storia
d'Italia, dal punto di vista culturale e dal punto di vista della
crescita della societ?? civile.
Galli della Loggia: Intendi l'Ottocento o il Novecento?
Schiavone: Il Novecento ?? stato un secolo terribile, ma non brutto
da questo punto di vista. Intendo l'Ottocento. Un altro Paese
arrivato all'unit?? molto tardi, la Germania, ha vissuto invece
nell'Ottocento un secolo straordinario quanto a storia della sua
cultura: un secolo che si ?? aperto quando Kant ancora scriveva e si
?? chiuso con Einstein gi?? al lavoro.
Galli della Loggia: Vuoi dire, insomma, che il compimento della
nostra unit?? nazionale ?? arrivato nel momento pi?? basso del nostro
sviluppo sociale-civile ed economico, anche.
Schiavone: Esattamente. Io credo non a caso, perch?? se fosse andata
diversamente si sarebbe riproposto il problema cinquecentesco di
Machiavelli. Invece, l??, c'era un'unica realt?? culturalmente
debole, ma politicamente e militarmente in grado di concepire il
progetto: il Piemonte che ha unificato il Paese. Tener presente
questa fragilit?? culturale dell'Ottocento italiano ci aiuta non a
costruire una specie di anti-retorica del Risorgimento, cosa che non
mi interessa affatto, ma a capire le tragedie del secolo successivo.
Galli della Loggia: Per fragilit?? culturali significa per esempio
che noi abbiamo dovuto costruire lo Stato nazionale con materiali
tutti presi in prestito?
Schiavone: Senza dubbio.
Galli della Loggia: Dalle culture europee???
Schiavone: Francia e Germania???
Galli della Loggia: Abbiamo dovuto prendere il Parlamento e lo
Statuto, ricopiandolo, diciamo cos??, su quanto avevano fatto gli
altri.
Schiavone. E quel po' che c'era, per vicende interne alla storia
intellettuale italiana, vicende anche accademiche, ?? stato poi
emarginato. Pensa a Cattaneo,pensa a che cosa sarebbe stato un
Risorgimento in cui Cattaneo fosse risultato un elemento centrale. Ma
questo ?? un discorso che ha poco senso???.
Galli della Loggia. La storia con i se.
Alessio Iovani. Cosa significava, all'indomani dell'unificazione, la
parola "patria" per le masse del Meridione?
Galli della Loggia. Pochissimo.
Schiavone. E quel poco, negativo.
Galli della Loggia. Significava abbastanza poco anche per le
popolazioni dell'Italia settentrionale. Non dimentichiamo che una
forte ostilit?? all' italianizzazione ci fu anche nelle masse
contadine del Veneto, non soltanto nel Mezzogiorno, cosa di cui
solitamente si parla. Per?? non credo che questo sia un argomento
storiografico che ci possa dire qualcosa sul carattere positivo o
negativo dell'evento. Ci dice qualcosa sulle difficolt?? all'interno
delle quali l'evento si ?? costruito: senza un consenso di massa,
senza, appunto, un consenso soprattutto delle masse contadine.
D'altra parte, l'idea che ,invece, l'unit?? si sarebbe potuta fare
con il consenso, dal punto di vista storiografico ?? un'idea che oggi
non gode pi?? molto credito. Intendo la vecchia idea gramsciana che
il partito d'Azione, i mazziniani, avrebbero dovuto e potuto
suscitare la rivoluzione nelle campagne: no, questo avrebbe suscitato
un tale allarme a livello internazionale??? Non dimentichiamoci che
per l'unit?? d'Italia fu essenziale una congiuntura internazionale
favorevolissima???
Schiavone. L'Inghilterra.
Galli della Loggia. E giocata con grande maestria da Cavour. Una
rivoluzione italiana guidata da Mazzini avrebbe avuto l'ostilit?? di
tutti. Dunque, la parola "patria" voleva dire pochissimo . E si ??
dovuta costruire un'esperienza statale nazionale partendo da quel
poco. Un poco che per?? lentamente, progressivamente, si ?? allargato.
Schiavone. "Patria" significava una retorica imposta con le
baionette, la retorica di quella che veniva percepita dalle masse
meridionali???
Galli della Loggia. Significava servizio di leva, tasse.
Schiavone. ??? veniva percepita come un'occupazione militare, come
invasione, dominio straniero . Questa ?? una delle tragedie di cui
parlavo. Credo anch'io che per?? una soluzione diversa sarebbe stata
impossibile . Il contesto internazionale era quello che era, e lo
stesso Cavour lo ha usato con l'abilit?? che oggi sempre di pi??
siamo in grado di ricostruire. Lui stesso, come sappiamo, fino alla
fine probabilmente pensava ad una soluzione diversa, non a una
soluzione unitaria. Con i caratteri che invece ha avuto dopo il '65,
dopo la sua morte.
Galli della Loggia. La spedizione dei Mille fu decisiva
nell'allargare un progetto di unit?? d'Italia che doveva fermarsi
all'Arno.
Schiavone. Detto questo, io credo che per?? poi qualcosa ?? stato
fatto. Se pensiamo allo sforzo di nazionalizzazione delle masse
compiuto dalla vecchia Italia liberale, lo sforzo che si ??
verificato in Italia dall'ultimo decennio dell'Ottocento fino alla
Prima guerra mondiale, e del quale la Prima guerra mondiale ?? stata
una verifica sul campo, tutt'altro che fallimentare da questo punto
di vista.
Galli della Loggia. Per la verit??, bisognerebbe aggiungere che un
effetto di nazionalizzazione delle masse, l'ha avuto anche la nascita
dei partiti, del partito operaio, del partito socialista.
Schiavone. La tragedia della Prima guerra mondiale, per??, ha
travolto tutto questo, ha determinato la nascita del fascismo e la
radicalizzazione del movimento operaio.
Galli della Loggia. La Prima guerra mondiale ?? stata una prova molto
difficile, ma superata. Il problema ?? stato il dopoguerra: quando ??
venuto al pettine forse il nodo del mancato consenso delle masse o,
forse, il nodo delle lotte interne ai gruppi dirigenti.
Schiavone. Io direi l'incapacit?? del Paese a reggere le sfide del
nuovo scenario internazionale economico- politico imposto dalla Prima
guerra mondiale.
Amedeo Laudadio. Con il fascismo essere "patrioti" divent??
un'imposizione. Con quali conseguenze per il significato e la fortuna
dell'idea?
Schiavone. Certamente negative, molto negative. Qui, per??, vorrei
tornare sul discorso che faceva Ernesto all'inizio e che ormai ?? il
"suo" discorso, quello della "morte della patria". Io credo che nel
'43-'45 quando l'apparato del fascismo si ?? disgregato, quando
questa nazionalizzazione delle masse forzata, indotta dal fascismo,
si ?? disgregata ha gettato discredito , retrospettivamente, su
qualcosa di pi?? lontano. Il fascismo ha travolto con s?? tutta la
storia liberale, il ciclo che era iniziato nel 1861.
Galli della Loggia. Tutta la storia nazionale ?? stata travolta dal
fascismo che se ne era considerato, diciamo cos??, l'erede universale.
Schiavone. Esattamente. Il fascismo si era considerato l'erede
universale, il potenziatore, ci?? che solidificava quelle istanze e
le proiettava su uno scenario di potenza mondiale, e tutto questo ??
stato travolto. ?? andato in pezzi con il fascismo l'unico tentativo
di tutta la nostra storia millenaria di costruire una identit??
nazionale su contenuti, diciamo, politico-militari.
Galli della Loggia. La storia del fascismo ?? anche una illustrazione
del terribile pericolo che corre l'idea di nazione quando se ne
appropria politicamente una parte, quando non ?? pi?? un valore
condiviso da una collettivit?? e da tutte le sue forze politiche,
bens?? viene monopolizzata da una parte. Il che realizza proprio
tecnicamente ci?? che si dice un "regime": si ?? italiani solo se si
?? fascisti. Fino al punto che chi non era fascista veniva privato di
cittadinanza italiana: apparentemente sembra un rafforzamento, a
molti contemporanei probabilmente sembr?? che il fascismo rafforzasse
enormemente l'idea di nazione, in realt?? ne preparava la catastrofe,
proprio perch?? lo connotava politicamente.
Quindi, come tu dicevi, la rovina del fascismo fu la rovina di tutta
l'idea di nazione e del rapporto degli italiani con la nazione
costruita dal 1861.
Ludovico Bertolone. I partigiani si definivano "patrioti". Patrioti
che lottavano per la liberazione dell'Italia e, insieme, per diversi
progetti politici: per un'Italia socialista, o cattolico-democratica,
o di "giustizia e libert??". Ragioni in qualche modo analoghe a
quelle dei mazziniani, i cavouriani, i garibaldini di un secolo
prima? Oppure la Resistenza ha visto mutare a fondo il concetto di
"patria"?
Schiavone. Io non spingerei troppo questa analogia
Resistenza-Risorgimento. Questa connessione mi pare che si inserisca
in certi disegni retorici , nel tentativo di trovare una certa specie
di icone della storia d'Italia. No, io credo che nelle idee della
Resistenza ci fosse fortissimo il desiderio di fare del passato una
tabula rasa. Credo, cio??, che questa percezione di cui stavamo
parlando un attimo fa, che si fosse chiuso un ciclo che aveva
travolto non solo il fascismo, ma anche la nazionalizzazione liberale
delle masse, se possiamo inventare questa espressione, l'avessero
fortissima, coloro che combattevano nella Resistenza nei vari
orientamenti ideali, da quello cattolico a quello comunista.
Fare tabula rasa, inserire una discontinuit?? forte nella storia
d'Italia, ripartire daccapo dal punto di vista istituzionale, etico,
dal punto di vista del patto sociale tra i cittadini, la
collettivit?? e lo Stato. Il punto ?? - e qui si apre il discorso
sulla storia di questi ultimi cinquant'anni - che quella esigenza di
discontinuit?? non ?? stata poi soddisfatta storicamente. Abbiamo
avuto la Repubblica, ma non abbiamo avuto una vera rottura nella
storia dello Stato. La Repubblica ha immediatamente introiettato le
forme statuali dell' ancien r??gime .
Galli della Loggia. Tornando alla domanda che faceva il nostro
spettatore, ecco, ribadirei un punto che mi sembra importante. Dice:
"tutte le forze politiche in campo durante la Resistenza combattevano
con l'obiettivo della liberazione dell'Italia dal fascismo e dal
nazismo e, insieme, ognuna per il suo progetto politico". Il problema
e la diversit?? rispetto al Risorgimento, e anch'io sono d'accordo
che sarebbe meglio, diciamo cos?????
Schiavone. Tenere distinte le due cose.
Galli della Loggia. S??, ogni fatto storico distinto per se stesso.
Il problema che nasce da questa combinazione di obiettivi,
l'obiettivo della liberazione dell'Italia e l'obiettivo specifico del
proprio progetto politico ?? che, oggettivamente, in alcuni casi
questi due obiettivi erano difficilmente compatibili. L'obiettivo
delle forze di sinistra che si muovevano nell'ottica delle esigenze
statali dell'Unione Sovietica, che avevano un legame di ferro con
l'Unione Sovietica, ?? difficile immaginare che potesse conciliarsi
con una libert?? dell'Italia, liberazione dell'Italia quale noi oggi
comunemente la intendiamo. Questo non vuol dire che i militanti
comunisti della Resistenza agissero nell'ottica di rendere la propria
lotta funzionale alle esigenze dell'Unione Sovietica, non c'era
assolutamente questo animus soggettivo. Erano, quindi, dei patrioti.
Naturalmente per?? il quadro ideologico che facevano proprio, a loro
dispetto era iscritto in un disegno molto lontano da quello che
poteva essere il disegno della libert?? italiana.
A volte la storia, soprattutto la storia del Novecento, ha visto
questi spaventosi intrecci: si ?? militato in campi ideologici in cui
poi non ci si poteva riconoscere, quando essi arrivavano a
manifestare la loro vera natura. Questo problema ?? stato centrale
nel dramma resistenziale e post-resistenziale.
Schiavone. Non c'?? dubbio. D'altra parte il nostro Novecento ??
stato un secolo terribile: noi in Italia nello stesso secolo abbiamo
inventato il fascismo e abbiamo avuto, immediatamente dopo, il pi??
forte partito comunista dell'occidente. Abbiamo tenuto insieme
elementi di una tragicit?? straordinaria. Detto questo mi chiedo,
tornando sugli anni della Resistenza, come mai quei progetti non
siano riusciti a produrre, nonostante il massimalismo, o forse
proprio a causa di alcuni massimalismi, a produrre una rottura, una
discontinuit??.
Galli della Loggia. Secondo me per la stessa ragione per cui a molti
italiani nel 1865 l'Italia unita parve troppo simile all'Italia
precedente. La Resistenza fu un fatto sostanzialmente di ??lite, ci
fu una grande assenza della stragrande maggioranza degli italiani,
quindi le forze dirigenti, a cominciare da quelle di sinistra, si
resero conto che non si poteva andare a una rottura radicale con le
istituzioni , con la macchina statale.
Schiavone. I due grandi partiti di massa hanno in qualche modo
barattato il consenso con la continuit??, hanno chiesto consenso e
dato continuit??.
Galli della Loggia. Era difficile non tener conto del consenso,
soprattutto perch?? si usciva da un'esperienza come quella fascista,
e una cultura politica di tipo qualunquistico- reazionario era ancora
diffusissima. Era difficile fare il passo tanto lungo da rompere il
legame con il passato .
Schiavone. Mi piacerebbe pensare che abbia influito nelle scelte di
quegli anni anche la soggettivit?? dei protagonisti. Forse le
condizioni in campo permettevano soluzioni un po' diverse. Mi
riferisco alla soggettivit?? di Togliatti e di De Gasperi. Continuo a
chiedermi se le forze in campo in quegli anni non avrebbero
consentito una soluzione meno grigiamente continuista .
Galli della Loggia. Una soluzione diversa avrebbe avuto bisogno di
una leadership, un leader di cultura giacobina. E sicuramente n??
Togliatti n?? De Gasperi avevano una cultura giacobina. Erano, anzi,
proprio, bench?? portatori di culture diversissime tra di loro???
Schiavone. Assolutamente antiromantici, antigiacobini.
Galli della Loggia. Non avevano nulla di giacobino, nulla che li
portasse a forzature dall'alto in nome di un raggiungimento di
obiettivi ideali. Erano dominati entrambi da concezioni molto
realistiche ed erano molto attenti ai rapporti di forza in contesti
internazionali.
Schiavone. Tutti e due avevano, poi, questo senso di eterogenesi dei
fini, dovuto all'universalismo, quel nucleo messianico che c'era in
entrambi le dottrine, e quindi "??? noi per adesso accomodiamo le
cose nel modo pi?? indolore possibile e poi si vedr?? e poi si far??".
Galli della Loggia. Storicamente le cose sono andate cos?? ed ??
difficile dire che potessero andare diversamente.
In questo senso c'?? una analogia tra Risorgimento e Resistenza, ??
la stessa cosa di coloro che, appena fatto il Risorgimento,
incominciarono a dire: "Ma, poteva essere fatto in maniera un po'
diversa, un po' pi?????."
--
__________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 11:44:34 -0500
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: Identity 3
http://www.romacivica.net/anpiroma/resistenza/revisionismo/resistenza9.htm
Resistenza e revisionismo
"Lettera a Ciampi.
Presidente, parliamo della Patria"
di Ernesto Galli della Loggia
Signor presidente,
in una lunga intervista-conversazione pubblicata ieri su
???Repubblica??? , a commento del suo viaggio a Cefalonia, per rendere
omaggio ai caduti della divisione Acqui, ella esordisce con queste
parole: ???Non ho mai capito cosa intendano i teorici della ???morte
della Patria???, che indicano nell???8 settembre la data di questo lutto
senza ritorno. A sentir loro, la Patria, l???idea di Patria, che allora
sarebbe stata travolta, non ?? mai risorta. E noi cosa saremmo
dunque, oggi: italiani, cittadini senza Patria????.
Ebbene, come forse ella sa, capita che proprio io sia uno di quei ???
teorici??? di cui lei parla (in ottima compagnia peraltro, a cominciare
da Renzo De Felice e lndro Montanelli), che proprio io abbia
ripescato l??? espressione ???morte della Patria??? da un vecchio testo di
Salvatore Satta, per farne il titolo prima di un mio saggio, poi di un
libro. Le cui tesi ella ha pi?? volte, in questi ultimi tempi, contestato,
ma forse mai con la sommaria perentoriet?? che ha usato in questa
occasione e che, dunque, sollecita una risposta.
Come comprender??, lo faccio con un certo disagio, infatti, io
insegno da molti anni Storia contemporanea in una universit?? della
Repubblica, e non avrei mai immaginato, signor presidente, di
essere costretto, un giorno, a dover discutere i risultati della mia
ricerca con il capo dello Stato, di dover rendere conto a lui di quei
medesimi risultati; di doverli difendere dalle critiche della pi?? alta
carica politica del mio Paese.
Ho sempre pensato e continuo a pensare, all???opposto, che in una
democrazia non ?? compito dei politici ??? in specie di chi vi copre
importanti ruoli istituzionali ??? dire la propria nel merito di complessi
problemi storiografici, n?? tanto meno esprimere le proprie personali
preferenze per questa o quella interpretazione del passato: con
l???eventuale, ma a quel punto logicamente inevitabile, conseguenza
di censurare, di fatto, i libri e i manuali che le divulgano.
Ma lei ??, evidentemente, convinto del contrario, signor presidente,
e lo ha pi?? volte dimostrato nella maniera pi?? altisonante, come
appunto ha fatto ieri.
Leggendo con attenzione le sue parole, io non riesco a liberarmi dal
sospetto, tuttavia, che ella abbia frainteso le tesi dei ???teorici??? che
critica. Non le sarebbe sfuggito, altrimenti, signor presidente, quello
che ?? l???aspetto centrale e decisivo della questione della ???morte
della Patria???. Che non riguarda affatto l???8 settembre, se non come
punto di partenza analitico, ma ha come oggetto, vero e principale,
i molti decenni che seguirono quella data: cio?? il clima politico,
ideologico, culturale che ha caratterizzato almeno mezzo secolo di
vita repubblicana. Mi spiegher?? con un esempio: lo sa, signor
presidente, che nel volume ??? ;Una guerra civile??? di Claudio Pavone
??? il quale pure scrive, oggi, che Cefalonia fu ???tra gli atti fondativi
della Resistenza??? ??? ebbene lo sa che, in quel libro di 800 pagine,
uscito nel 1991, della strage di Cefalonia, di come essa avvenne e
perch??, non si dice nulla? Che il nome del generale Gandin e quello
del capitano Pampaloni neppure vi sono ricordati di sfuggita???
Ecco cosa ?? stata la ???morte della Patria???, signor presidente. Il fatto
che ??? ancora dieci anni fa ??? nel libro pur, per molti versi, ottimo di
uno storico di valore, i morti dopo l???8 settembre del Regio Esercito,
morti spesso in nome del Re, godevano di un???attenzione e
considerazione minori (molto, molto minori: fino al silenzio) di quelli
dei partiti antifascisti, dei morti partigiani.
Dunque, quando nell???intervista a ???Repubblica??? ella chiede ai teorici
della ???morte della Patria??? in qual modo essi possano ignorare eventi
come Cefalonia, lei, signor presidente, si rivolge alle persone
sbagliate. Ad altri va rivolta quella domanda, o meglio andava
rivolta: dal momento che oggi anche i dimentichi di ieri, anche loro,
hanno scoperto Cefalonia e la resistenza militare, affrettandosi a
dargli il rilievo che l???una e l???altra meritano. Oggi, per??. Controlli,
signor presidente: vada a vedere quante volte e come ?? ricordata
la strage di Cefalonia nei libri sulla Resistenza che uscivano fino a
qualche anno fa.??
Proprio ricordando la strage di Cefalonia e quella di Porzus; via
Rasella e il dramma del confine orientale; l???assenza del Mezzogiorno
e la presenza di una massiccia ???zona grigia???: proprio ricordando
quanti fatti del 1943-45 siano stati poi dimenticati o
???addomesticati??? per anni, dalla vulgata corrente tutta ispirata dalla
sinistra; proprio ricordando a quali e quante pochezze, divisioni e
contraddizioni laceranti la Resistenza dovette in realt?? assistere;
proprio su tale base, qualcuno ?? arrivato a concludere che essa ???
pur con tutto l???afflato patriottico di chi vi prese parte ??? non riusc??,
n?? poteva riuscire a produrre il radicamento, nell???ltalia repubblicana,
di un forte sen timento nazionale, in sostituzione di quello andato
distrutto con il fascismo e la sconfitta bellica.
?? accaduto cos?? che, per cinquant???anni, l???ltalia sia stata una
democrazia senza nazione, senza ???patria???, appunto. Un Paese in cui
la patria era morta. Non lo crede anche lei, signor presidente???
Davvero lei pensa che, invece, nel nostro Paese ci sia stato un
vero sentimento patriottico, un vero e diffuso sentimento
nazionale? Ma ??? mi chiedo e rispettosamente le chiedo ??? da quale
singolare spirito nazional-patriottico era animato, un Paese in cui
met?? dei cittadini ha temuto per anni di essere arrestata,
deportata e magari fatta fuori dall??? altra met??? In cui nessuna
scelta di politica estera ?? stata fatta con il consenso di tutti? Che
???patria??? era quella in cui influenze straniere hanno potuto fare quasi
tutto ci?? che volevano? Dove l???esercito e le forze di polizia sono
stati considerati ??? per decenni, da molti, da moltissimi ??? non
simbolo di unit?? bens?? ; di divisione e di pericolo per la democrazia?
Dove, dalla memoria della Resistenza, erano virtualmente espulsi i
morti politicamente sgraditi o indifferenti al Cln, ma caduti anch???essi
in nome dell???ltalia? E del resto, signor presidente, se per mezzo
secolo avessimo davvero avuto una patria, se per tutto questo
tempo ci fossimo tutti davvero riconosciuti in un inno e in una
bandiera, animati da un vero spirito di solidariet?? nazionale, se
tutto ci?? ??? come bisognerebbe desumere dalle sue parole ??? fosse
stato vero, a che pro allora il suo lodevole sforzo, dal momento in
cui ?? entrato in carica, per riaccreditare bandiera e inno,
monumenti e sentimenti della patria? A che pro questo continuo
parlare che lei fa di nazione e di Italia? E che senso avrebbero mai
la novit?? e il merito che, per tutto ci??, l???opinione pubblica volentieri
le riconosce, se da sempre avessimo dimestichezza con gesti come
quelli che lei compie, con parole come quelle che lei pronuncia?
Come italiano, penso che sia una fortuna che lei oggi possa
compiere quei gesti e pronunciare quelle parole. ?? il segno che,
forse, ?? finalmente finito il lungo dopoguerra ed ?? iniziata un???altra e
nuova stagione ; che, caduto il comunismo, tutti i muri sono
caduti, anche quelli che cosi a lungo ci hanno separati dalla nostra
Patria.
Ma tra i doveri degli storici non c????? quello di essere patriottici. Gli
storici hanno semplicemente il dovere di studiare il passato, di
salvarlo alla memoria ricostruendolo secondo la loro capacit?? e la
loro coscienza, senza farsi influenzare dalle mode e dalle necessit??
dell???oggi, senza prestare ascolto alle suggestioni dell???ora. E
naturalmente hanno il dovere di non farsi condizionare dalle
polemiche aggressive di chicchessia, fossero anche le sue, signor
presidente. Con il massimo rispetto.
( ???Corriere della sera???, 4 marzo 2001)
"Risposta a Galli della Loggia. Io, la Patria
e i doveri di testimone"
di Carlo Azeglio Ciampi
??
Chiarissimo Professore, non sono uno storico, non intendo sostituirmi
agli storici. Ho vissuto, come giovane ufficiale di complemento, le
drammatiche
vicende del 1943: sono quindi, e so di essere, soltanto un
testimone. Ho vissuto il collasso dello Stato; ho vissuto lo smarrimento
dell???assenza di ???ordini??? in un momento, credo, il pi?? tragico nella
storia della nostra Italia. Come tanti altri nelle mie condizioni,
trovammo nelle nostre coscienze l???orientamento: in quelle coscienze
vibrava profondo il senso della Patria.
Questo intendo dire con la mia testimonianza di cittadino. La mia
successiva esperienza al servizio dello Stato per oltre cinquant???anni
non mi consente di condividere l???opinione che, per tutto quel
periodo, pur cos?? travagliato, l???Italia sia stata ???una democrazia
senza Patria???.??
Come Presidente della Repubblica Italiana, sin dal primo giorno del
mandato, ho ritenuto di dover esprimere con immediatezza il mio
animo.?? Ho avvertito come spontanea risposta degli italiani un forte
desiderio di riconoscersi nell???affermazione di valori condivisi. Di qui il
consenso e la partecipazione a ogni iniziativa che attesti
pubblicamente quei valori, senza retorica ma con puntuali richiami a
istituzioni, fatti, episodi.??
Amo la lettura dei libri di storia. Ho grande rispetto per il lavoro,
documentario e interpretativo, degli storici. So quanto siano
essenziali, nell???uno e nell???altro aspetto, l???autonomia di ricerca e di
giudizio, la ripulsa di ogni condizionamento. Sono valori che fanno
parte costitutiva dell???etica civile, sulla cui solidit?? si fonda la stessa
unit?? nazionale.
Non ritengo per?? che sia di esclusiva competenza degli storici di
professione il riflettere sul passato.
?? da questa riflessione che ogni cittadino, e ancor pi?? chi ha
responsabilit?? politiche o istituzionali, deve trarre ispirazione per il
proprio impegno civile, per il proprio operare. Rendere poi note
queste riflessioni e valutazioni non ?? unatto censorio, ma un atto
dovuto.?? Vuole contribuire a tener vivo nei cittadini un forte senso della
Patria. Sono lieto che Lei esprima in proposito un giudizio positivo.
Con viva cordialit??,
Carlo Azeglio Ciampi
( ???Corriere della sera???, 5 marzo 2001)
--
__________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 12:08:36 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Admin: Re: Identity
Percedol, you posted,
)No-off list? (No translation available)
)
)Ernesto Galli della Loggia, L???identit?? italiana, Bologna, Il
)Mulino, 1998, 171 p.
)??
)??
)??
)Ce livre d???Ernesto Galli della Loggia inaugure une collection du
)m??me nom aux ??ditions Mulino, et s???attache ?? ??num??rer, en
)faisant preuve d???une
(snip)
Please, since most of the subscribers read English only, if you post
something in another language, include a translation or at least add
your summary of its contents or some explanation of its value.
Thank you,
Dan Dugan
Moderator
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 18:03:36 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Sharing the news and greetings
Relaying the news.... A strong decision against First Amendment violations.
Freedom From Religion Foundation and a group of parents who did not approve
of religious proselytizing in their public school just won another victory
for church / state separationists. A Tennessee school broke the law for
decades, teaching weekly Bible classes in Rhea County public schools. The
judge in Tennessee issued a forceful decision in February declaring the
classes unconstitutional. Here's what the judge said: The government,
through its public school system, may not teach, or allow the teaching of a
distinct religious viewpoint" he also said the program had "both the purpose
and effect to endorse and advance religion in the public schools".
About a month ago Dan Dugan posted another FFRF victory on W critics, if you
remember, they had challenged "faith-based funding" of Faith Works. Here are
some letters the Foundation received in response to their legal victory
which reinforced church/state separation.
"Your so called win against Faith Works may be a win for your heathen
organization, but surely not for the recipients who have been helped by that
organization. I'm not as religious as I should be, but I find you and your
group of Satan worshiping scum not worthy of the freedom this country
provides. Why don't you and your band of anti-God whackos move to China
where you won't have to deal with religion? We don't need freedom from
religion, but rather freedom from anti-religious and Satanic organizations
like yours. I find you worse than a whore."
"Hello, cheese-eating scumbags: you remind me of the night-riders of the
1960's, coming south in masks and hoods to commit your predations. In case
you haven't noticed, the nation has rediscovered it's Christian roots, and
it'll be a cold day in hell before we yield willingly to the precious
mercies of liberal minions of secular humanists like you again. We put up
with forty years of your crap, and it's OVER. Get used to it. P.S. COWARDS,
put your stinking real names on lawsuits."
If you don't like Christianity...."Then why don't all of you leave America,
this country was founded by Christians for Christians. And if you don't like
it then go to a Godless heathen nation that agrees with your retard tinged
philosophy. Their are way more of us Christians than you losers. Their is NO
separation of church and state and you and you heathens will lose.
Thankfully you are old and I hope you all get a painful disease like rectal
cancer and die a slow painful death, so you can meet your God, SATAN..."
"If you don't like this country and what it was founded on and for, get the
f.ck out of it and go straight to hell! (That's probably where this letter
will have to be forwarded to in order to reach you!) Get the hell out of my
country, you low life bit.h! Go join Bin Baby if you're not too rotten for
him to associate himself with! P.S. F.ck you communist whore!"
Sharon: Won't bother to continue. The letters were printed in Freethought
Today, Vol. 19 no. 2 March 2002.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 03:50:16 +0000
From: (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: Admin: Re: Identity
Ernesto galli della Loggia is Professor at the University of Perugia
where he teaches 'History of Parties and Political Movements'. He often
authors articles in the 'Corriere della Sera'. He recently wrote a book
'Death of the Motherland' where he bring forth the motivations that led
Italy to lose its national identity after the facts of September 8th,
1943. About a year ago he wrote an open letter to the President of the
Italian Republic discussing the reasons for his position. He felt moved
to write after a speech that Mr. Ciampi gave in relationship to the
events of Cefalonia. Mr. Ciampi replied to Ernesto Galli della Loggia
with an open letter on the same newspaper (Corriere della Sera) the
following day.
Prof. Galli della Loggia explains that the civil war was just the first
act of a fifty years long series of events that demonstrate his thesis.
For example the silence that Italian historians maintained for so many
years about Cefalonia, Porzus, the drama of the eastern border (the
murders of at least hundreds of Italians perpetrated by the partisans of
Tito), via Rasella. Then the fact that for years half of the population
feared to be deported and killed by the other half, that no political
choice had the general consensus, that police and army were seen as a
danger for democracy, etc.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 23:20:48 -0400
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: Home visits
) I was just wondering if anyone has had experience with
) class home visits (where the whole class visits each
) of their classmates homes over a week or so) and what
) the purpose was behind them?
) Many thanks Kate
)
) http://movies.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Movies
) - Vote for your nominees in our online Oscars pool.
)
Lisa here: Kate, I am aware of the home visits made by Waldorf teachers to
each child's home before the beginning of each school year, but I have never
before heard of visits made by a whole class.
Can you tell us more about this? Is this something that your family
experienced during your time at Waldorf?
I know I am not the only person who is interested in knowing (or in
getting the discussion onto a less philosophical plane!!)
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 671
-- Topica Digest --
RE: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
By sufrito53 yahoo.com
Re: Home visits
By snell gv.net
technical difficulties
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: technical difficulties
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: Home visits
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: technical difficulties
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
Re: Home visits
By kateabooth yahoo.com.au
Re: technical difficulties
By dan dandugan.com
re: home visits
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: Home visits
By snell gv.net
RE: Spot the difference
By dan dandugan.com
Re: racist
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Home visits
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 12:34:07 +0000
From: Su (sufrito53 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
Lubert Das wrote:
)
) ----- Original Message -----
) From: "Su" (sufrito53 yahoo.com)
) To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
) Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2002 10:40 AM
) Subject: RE: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
)
) Lubert:
) Su, sorry, I was unaware of Festinger's (correct spelling) work previous
) to
) "When Prophecy Fails...", on which it is based. Please ignore my
) request.
)
) http://www.freeminds.org/psych/propfail.htm
) http://www.colorado.edu/communication/meta-discourses/Theory/festinger.htm
)
) http://www.colorado.edu/communication/meta-discourses/theory.htm
)
)
)
Thanks so much!!
-Su
It's not over 'til it's over--Yogi Berra
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 09:21:26 -0800
From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
Subject: Re: Home visits
On Monday, March 18, 2002, at 07:20 PM, Lisa Ercolano wrote:
)) I was just wondering if anyone has had experience with
)) class home visits (where the whole class visits each
)) of their classmates homes over a week or so) and what
)) the purpose was behind them?
)) Many thanks Kate
))
)) http://movies.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Movies
)) - Vote for your nominees in our online Oscars pool.
))
) Lisa here: Kate, I am aware of the home visits made by Waldorf teachers
) to
) each child's home before the beginning of each school year, but I have
) never
) before heard of visits made by a whole class.
) Can you tell us more about this? Is this something that your family
) experienced during your time at Waldorf?
) I know I am not the only person who is interested in knowing (or in
) getting the discussion onto a less philosophical plane!!)
)
) ==
Debra:
HeAt our school, only the teachers visited families. This was a dreaded
event for many families - some went out of their way to hide TV's, etc.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 11:28:33 -0600
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: technical difficulties
Hi folks,
I've been having ongoing problems with my subscription to the list lately
(thanks Dan for staying on top of it), which is why I haven't been my usual
talkative self for the past week. I've missed lots of messages, so if there
was something that somebody wanted me to look at or respond to, please
re-send it to me off-list (pstaud hotmail.com).
I'm wondering if other people who use hotmail have had similar difficulties
with their subscriptions; what seems to be happening is that a number of
messages don't get to me, presumably because they've bounced back to topica
for some reason, and then topica automatically unsubscribes me for too many
bounces. I tried opening another hotmail account to see if that would solve
the problem, but after a few days the very same thing happened to that
account too.
Anyway, a couple of things I wanted to catch up on: Many thanks to Peter
Zegers for translating all of that Scaligero material last week. I'm
currently doing lots of research on Italian fascism (for an article
unrelated to anthroposophy), and I'll keep my eyes open for further
references to our new-found paragon of anthro-racism.
I think either koala or Peter Z asked me to chime in on good German-language
critical works on anthroposophy. I enthusiastically second Peter Z's
recommendation of Peter Bierl's book; it is the very best single work on the
topic, in my opinion. Anyone who reads German and would like to learn more
about anthroposophy's history should read it. I would also recommend the
work of historian Helmut Zander, whose excellent analyses of anthroposophy's
racial politics have so far appeared only as articles and chapters in
various anthologies. Again, for anyone who reads German they are well worth
tracking down (feel free to contact me for precise bibliographic
information). Sharon has mentioned some of Zander's work in English; since I
can't seem to find the journal Theosophical History, I'd like to ask Sharon
if she can tell us a little more about what he has published there. There
are also quite a few books in German that are critical reviews of
anthroposophy from a mainstream Christian perspective; probably the best of
these is Jan Badewien's book Anthroposophie: Eine kritische Darstellung
(Konstanz 1985). Last, Volkmar Woelk's work on contemporary far-right
anthroposophy is superb, but unfortunately hard to come by. His booklet
Natur und Mythos is available from the Duisburg Institut fuer Sprach- und
Sozialforschung, whose website is at
http://www.uni-duisburg.de/DISS/
Also, I should be able to get to the library today and look up GA 353; I
will post the passage where Steiner discusses the historical role of the
Jewish people.
Peter Staudenmaier
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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 15:34:51 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: technical difficulties
on 3/19/02 9:28 AM, Peter Staudenmaier at pstaud hotmail.com wrote:
Sharon has mentioned some of Zander's work in English; since I
) can't seem to find the journal Theosophical History, I'd like to ask Sharon
) if she can tell us a little more about what he has published there.
Sharon: Hi Peter. Zander wrote a three page review for Theosophical History.
Basically, he was making a call for more research on Theosophy which exists
in Germany as Anthroposophy. He cautions that the terrain of
Anthroposophist's selective editing is difficult and unreliable. He mentions
a couple of books as reading recommendations. Points out that not much has
been written with high historiographical standards. Discusses the possible
cocaine habit of Steiner and recommends a book on the Lutheran, Rittlemeyer
who converted to Anthro and headed the first Christian Community Church.
Funny you should mention the review, I just sent Peter Z and Dan a copy
yesterday, snail mail.
While we are on the subject of books on Anthro. What do you think of Ahern's
Sun at Midnight? It's one of the few books about Anthroposophy in English.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 15:34:52 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Home visits
on 3/19/02 9:21 AM, Debra Snell at snell gv.net wrote:
)
) On Monday, March 18, 2002, at 07:20 PM, Lisa Ercolano wrote:
)
))) I was just wondering if anyone has had experience with
))) class home visits (where the whole class visits each
))) of their classmates homes over a week or so) and what
))) the purpose was behind them?
))) Many thanks Kate
)))
))) http://movies.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Movies
))) - Vote for your nominees in our online Oscars pool.
)))
)) Lisa here: Kate, I am aware of the home visits made by Waldorf teachers
)) to
)) each child's home before the beginning of each school year, but I have
)) never
)) before heard of visits made by a whole class.
)) Can you tell us more about this? Is this something that your family
)) experienced during your time at Waldorf?
)) I know I am not the only person who is interested in knowing (or in
)) getting the discussion onto a less philosophical plane!!)
))
)) ==
)
) Debra:
)
) HeAt our school, only the teachers visited families. This was a dreaded
) event for many families - some went out of their way to hide TV's, etc.
Sharon: At our school, the KG teacher and the new soon to be first grade
teacher visited our home. It was embarrassing for us because she sang songs
and it was all fake. She snooped around the house. I did not hide things,
but afterward felt that I should have. It is very much a spy mission don't
you think? A friend of mine in Chicago ruled out Waldorf for her child
because she said that the house visit was a judgement. They were coming to
make a judgement about the child.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 21:27:14 +0000
From: (Winters_Diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: technical difficulties
Peter S. wrote:
)I've been having ongoing problems with my subscription to the list
))lately
That's a better excuse than I've got (exhaustion and demoralization).
)I'm wondering if other people who use hotmail have had similar
))difficulties with their subscriptions;
Don't get me started, hotmail is a nightmare. I think multiple accounts
would only mean multiple problems. Try posting from the topica website.
Actually I'm trying this for the first time now, we'll see if it works.
(I tried to post this earlier, and ironically was informed I was
bounced.) Since you're subbed to the list, Peter, you probably have a
topica password; if you don't remember it, they'll send you a new one,
it only takes 5 minutes. - sorry to clog up the list with this, I should
write to Peter off list but I want to see if this works!
Diana
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 14:13:56 +1100 (EST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Kate=20Booth?= (kateabooth yahoo.com.au)
Subject: Re: Home visits
Dear Lisa the visits are by the whole class!!
Last year the class 1 teacher and the class spent a
whole day at each childs home.
This years new class 1/2 teacher is taking the class
on home visits spending 1/2 a day in each home...I
think they do 2 a day and the whole combined 1&2 class
goes along as well.
I was aware about your childs teacher making home
visits but never was I aware of the whole class going
as well.
Crikey 25 kids in the house for the day!!
Anyway I was just wondering if anyone out there had
experienced this as well or had any thoughts on it.
Thanks Kate
--- Lisa Ercolano (momof2gals mindspring.com) wrote:
) ) I was just wondering if anyone has had experience
) with
) ) class home visits (where the whole class visits
) each
) ) of their classmates homes over a week or so) and
) what
) ) the purpose was behind them?
) ) Many thanks Kate
) )
) ) http://movies.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Movies
) ) - Vote for your nominees in our online Oscars
) pool.
) )
) Lisa here: Kate, I am aware of the home visits made
) by Waldorf teachers to
) each child's home before the beginning of each
) school year, but I have never
) before heard of visits made by a whole class.
) Can you tell us more about this? Is this
) something that your family
) experienced during your time at Waldorf?
) I know I am not the only person who is
) interested in knowing (or in
) getting the discussion onto a less philosophical
) plane!!)
)
)
)
http://movies.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Movies
- Vote for your nominees in our online Oscars pool.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 17:39:41 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: technical difficulties
May I suggest...just don't use hotmail? It's free, but you get what
you pay for. You could just use your -real- email address. In the
years this list has been running some people have occasionally been
annoyed by off-list communications, but I don't recall there ever
being a serious problem.
I guess another reason to use hotmail would be spam, since your
messages are archived on our web site, address miners will get your
address from there. But it may be all the spam that goes to your
hotmail address that overflows it and causes it to stop accepting
mail! I view spam as inevitable and just delete the stuff, several
times a day.
I've had my real address out in public for many years, and I get the
occasional hate mail, but nothing serious.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 22:50:49 -0400
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: re: home visits
In an exchange about Waldorf "home visits," Kate Booth mentions a situation
during which a WHOLE CLASS visits the home of each child:
((... the visits are by the whole class!!
Last year the class 1 teacher and the class spent a
whole day at each childs home.
This years new class 1/2 teacher is taking the class
on home visits spending 1/2 a day in each home...I
think they do 2 a day and the whole combined 1&2 class
goes along as well.))
Lisa here: Well, Kate, this is new to me! During our six years at our former
Waldorf school, I never heard of such a thing occurring. Children came "en
masse" to one another's homes during birthday parties or start-of-the-year
class picnics, but not, to my knowledge, as part of routine home visits.
I would be intrigued to know more. What school was this, Kate? Did the
teacher give you any explanation?
The logistics alone boggle the mind: imagine not only having to take
every child in the class to each home (transportation, permission,
insurance, etc.), but also having all those children descend on your home!
What possible purpose could there be in doing this? Even though I don't
hold with the purpose behind the
class-teacher-comes-to-one-child's-home-to-check-it-out visits, at least
that makes some sense. (The teacher gets to see the child's home
environment, which presumably gives her/him some info about the child; the
child meets the teacher on his or her own ground, etc.)
But the entire class? I am betting that this is the idea of one teacher
or one school, and not the anthroposophically correct thing to do.
Anthroposophically speaking, it makes sense for the teacher (child's
spiritual guide) to visit his or her future student's home base (cocoon.)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 20:52:29 -0800
From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
Subject: Re: Home visits
On Tuesday, March 19, 2002, at 07:13 PM, Kate Booth wrote:
) Dear Lisa the visits are by the whole class!!
) Last year the class 1 teacher and the class spent a
) whole day at each childs home.
Debra:
Unbelievable! Most arents would be pulling their hair out by days end.
Do the parents come too, or just the teacher and class? Are the kidlets
supervised well?
) This years new class 1/2 teacher is taking the class
) on home visits spending 1/2 a day in each home...I
) think they do 2 a day and the whole combined 1&2 class
) goes along as well.
Debra:
Sounds like a real zoo!
) I was aware about your childs teacher making home
) visits but never was I aware of the whole class going
) as well.
) Crikey 25 kids in the house for the day!!
) Anyway I was just wondering if anyone out there had
) experienced this as well or had any thoughts on it.
Debra:
What would happen if a parent refused to "host" 25 + little darlings?
Are they not allowed to enroll in the school?
I mean I have hosted both Max and Derek's class at my home, but at my
invitation! We had the last day of school celebration here. No, I didn't
cover either one of my TVs up. Gawd, I have a small TV in my kitchen.
Always listen to news while cooking dinner.
) Thanks Kate
)
)
)
) --- Lisa Ercolano (momof2gals mindspring.com) wrote:
))) I was just wondering if anyone has had experience
)) with
))) class home visits (where the whole class visits
)) each
))) of their classmates homes over a week or so) and
)) what
))) the purpose was behind them?
))) Many thanks Kate
)))
))) http://movies.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Movies
))) - Vote for your nominees in our online Oscars
)) pool.
)))
)) Lisa here: Kate, I am aware of the home visits made
)) by Waldorf teachers to
)) each child's home before the beginning of each
)) school year, but I have never
)) before heard of visits made by a whole class.
)) Can you tell us more about this? Is this
)) something that your family
)) experienced during your time at Waldorf?
)) I know I am not the only person who is
)) interested in knowing (or in
)) getting the discussion onto a less philosophical
)) plane!!)
))
))
))
)
) http://movies.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Movies
) - Vote for your nominees in our online Oscars pool.
)
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 00:25:52 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: RE: Spot the difference
Su, you asked,
)I am also wondering if you or others, either Dof's or Critics would be
)interested in explaining or summarizing the concepts of
)Imagination,Inspiration, and Intuition.
)
)They come up in so much of Steiner's writing. I would be interested in
)people's understanding of these entities.
"Something must step in to replace sensation. This something is
Imagination. At this stage, images appear to the occult student in
exactly the same way as if a sensory object were making an impression
upon him. They are as vivid and true as sensory images, yet they are
not of material, but of soul-spirit origin." [Steiner, Rudolf. The
Stages of Higher Knowledge. Anthroposophic Press, 1967. Translation
authorized for Western Hemisphere by Rudolph Steiner
Nachlassverwaltung, Dornach, Switzerland. p. 6.]
"Just as Imagination may be called a spiritual seeing, so may
Inspiration be called a spiritual hearing. Of course, it must be
quite clear that by the expression 'hearing' is meant a perception
still further removed from sensory-hearing in the physical world than
"sight" in the imaginative (astral) world is removed from seeing with
the physical eyes." [p. 48]
"Here it will merely be pointed out that what is designated as
'Intuition' in occult science has nothing to do with the application
of the word "intuition" in current popular usage....In occult
science, Intuition is nothing vague and uncertain, but a lofty mode
of cognition, full of the most luminous clarity and the most
indubitable certainty." [p.47]
"From Inspiration the spiritual observer may rise to Intuition. In
the manner of expression of occult science this word denotes in many
respects the exact opposite of that for which it is used in ordinary
life. In the ordinary sense intuition is spoken of when one has in
view a notion dimly felt to be true, which still lacks clear,
conceptual definition. A preliminary step toward knowledge, rather
than knowledge itself, is seen therein...Intuition is not a mode of
cognition which with regard to clarity lags behind intellectual
knowledge, but one that far surpasses it." [pp. 55-56]
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 00:31:34 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: racist
Koala, you asked,
)It may be that some of these questions have been already answered in old
)posts or discussed already. Sorry...
)
)1) how many official book releases (including grouping of lectures) were
)there (available or deleted in german). Is there a listing of the different
)and chronological editions in german?
Yes, that's what the "GA" numbers refer to, the official catalog of
complete works in German.
)2) Are there german printings that were never reissued?.
)
)3) Are there private documents that were never published?
In the US there are "study texts" that are circulated privately in typescript.
)4) Are there articles published in newspapers or magazines, and if yes how
)many? If this is the case, were there grouped in books?
)
)The following question is rather odd, but who knows? (in the case of
)Nietzsche with his sister, it happened already...)
)
)5) is it possible that there are forged documents that are falsely
)attributed to Steiner in order to endorse a different point of view or
)stance and to try to disqualify some too ambiguous statements published in
)his lifetime?
Intentional omissions and mistranslations, yes. Never heard of an
outright forgery.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 12:03:50 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Home visits
Kate wrote:
)Dear Lisa the visits are by the whole class!!
)Last year the class 1 teacher and the class spent a
)whole day at each childs home.
)This years new class 1/2 teacher is taking the class
)on home visits spending 1/2 a day in each home...I
)think they do 2 a day and the whole combined 1&2 class
)goes along as well.
)I was aware about your childs teacher making home
)visits but never was I aware of the whole class going
)as well.
)Crikey 25 kids in the house for the day!!
)Anyway I was just wondering if anyone out there had
)experienced this as well or had any thoughts on it.
It's really hard to believe. (Not saying I don't believe it, just that it's
ridiculous.) What on earth are they doing all day (hopefully some school
work)? And what ever happened to rhythm? How totally disruptive.
With 25 kids in the class, that's 2 weeks of the school year if they spend a
half-day at each, more than a month if they spend a full day.
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 672
-- Topica Digest --
re: home visits
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
Re: Spot the difference(don't miss Sue!!)
By mysplum earthlink.net
Happy Birthday Dan
By snell gv.net
Re: Spot the difference
By bdjour juno.com
Re: Spot the difference
By sarina bainbridge.net
Re: Happy Birthday Dan
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: Spot the difference
By bdjour juno.com
Re: Happy Birthday Dan
By sandra.schlick balcab.ch
Re: Spot the difference
By sandra.schlick balcab.ch
Re: Spot the difference
By bdjour juno.com
RE: Happy Birthday Dan
By sjgreen seidata.com
Re: Happy Birthday Dan
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: Happy Birthday Dan
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Happy Birthday Dan
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: Happy Birthday Dan
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
Re: technical difficulties
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: technical difficulties
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: Quote from GA 353
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: Spot the difference
By sandra.schlick balcab.ch
Re: Spot the difference
By sandra.schlick balcab.ch
Re: Spot the difference
By bdjour juno.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 12:33:47 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: re: home visits
Lisa:
) The logistics alone boggle the mind: imagine not only having to )take
)every child in the class to each home (transportation, permission,
)insurance, etc
Call me cynical, but in my experience they don't fret much about things like
permission or insurance.
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 08:13:17 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Spot the difference(don't miss Sue!!)
on 3/20/02 12:25 AM, Dan Dugan at dan dandugan.com wrote:
[Steiner, Rudolf. The
) Stages of Higher Knowledge. Anthroposophic Press, 1967. Translation
) authorized for Western Hemisphere by Rudolph Steiner
) Nachlassverwaltung, Dornach, Switzerland. p. 6.]
)
) "Just as Imagination may be called a spiritual seeing, so may
) Inspiration be called a spiritual hearing. Of course, it must be
) quite clear that by the expression 'hearing' is meant a perception
) still further removed from sensory-hearing in the physical world than
) "sight" in the imaginative (astral) world is removed from seeing with
) the physical eyes." [p. 48]
Sharon: This is really interesting, make sure you read this! Continuing on
from where Dan left off...
Steiner continued: "It can be said of the imaginative world's light and
color phenomena that the radiant surfaces and colors of sensory-objects are
as lifted from these objects and released from them to float free in space.
But this gives only an approximate idea, for "space" in the imaginative
world is in no way like it is in the physical. Whoever fancies that he has
before him imaginative color-pictures when he is seeing freely floating
colored particles in ordinary space dimension is in error. - But the forming
of such color representations is, nevertheless, thhe way to the imaginative
life. Whoever tries to put a flower before his mind's eye, and then
separates off from his picture everything that does not represent color, so
that the image of the colored surface, separate from the flower, is
suspended before his soul, can gradually through such exercises arrive at an
Imagination..Imagination, that is, the real astral experience first exists
when not only the color is wholly lifted apart from the sense impression,
but when also the three-dimensional space has fully lost itself. That this
is the case can be confirmed only by a certain feeling. This feeling is
described by saying that one no longer feels oneself "outside" but "inside"
the color-picture and has the consciousness of partaking of its coming into
being." (48-9)
Sharon: Devote yourself to color and you will unite with spiritual beings.
P 52 Steiner- "When the observer in the higher worlds once knows what
Imagination really is, he soon acquires the conviction that the pictures of
the astral world are not merely pictures, but manifestations of spiritual
beings. He comes to know that these imaginative pictures have reference to
spirit or soul being just as do sensory things or beings...He must learn to
discriminate between color formations that are opaque and those that are
quite transparent and in their inner nature clear and radiant...He will link
the opaque formations to lower beings, the clear, luminous ones to
intermediate entities; the inwardly radiant ones will be for him
manifestations of higher spiritual beings".
Sharon: Read on because it is extremely interesting...Steiner prophesied
that the Earth would become Jupiter, then Venus and then Vulcan. Man's
physical body and consciousness will evolve. Steiner also uses the words
Imagination, Intuition, and Inspiration to describe those future states of
consciousness that the initiates are training for, so that they may acquire
those attributes sooner than in the distant future on Venus and Vulcan.
Here's what he says:
"He will not only perceive in pictures and forms of colour, he will hear the
being of another give forth sounds and tones. Each human individuality will
have a certain note and the whole will sound together in symphony. This will
be the consciousness of man when our planet will have passed into the Venus
condition. (...) The seventh stage of consciousness is the Spiritual
consciousness, (Intuition) the very highest, when man has a universal
consciousness, when he will see not only what proceeds on his own planet,
but in the whole cosmos around him. It is the consciousness that the human
being had on Saturn, a kind of universal consciousness, although then quite
dim and dull. This he will have in addition to all the other states of
consciousness when he will have reached Vulcan" (Steiner, Theosophy of a
Rosicrucian, Rudolf Steiner Press, London. reprint 1981. p 89-90)
Sharon: Digest this and stay tuned!
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 11:44:26 -0800
From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
Subject: Happy Birthday Dan
Hi everyone,
Today is Dan Dugan's birthday. Please join me in wishing him a happy
one! We're not telling how many candles there are on the cke. He'll have
to do that himself. :+)
Debra
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 22:06:26 +0100
From: Bob D Jour (bdjour juno.com)
Subject: Re: Spot the difference
Dear Mr. Dugan,
I teach at a Waldorf School in Europe but am not an anthroposophist. If
you want to understand how Waldorfers use the words Imagination,
Inspiration, Intuition-- and let us not forget the everpresent Spirit--
it is instructive to watch Leni Riefenstahl's film "Triumph of the Will."
Just like the Nazis would repeat the same catchphrases over and over
again, so too do the Waldorfers use words like Inspiration, etc. not to
convey meaning, but as mantras. The words are devoid of any real
meaning, but if repeated long enough they tend to induce hypnosis. Once,
at one of the weekly 4-hour-long Conference meetings, I heard one teacher
and ardent Anthro use the word Imagination over 50 times in 5 minutes in
a discussion about the correct (read Steiner's) way of teaching
equilateral triangles. As I understand it, equilateral triangles are all
pretty much the same, but somehow a Steiner equilateral triangle is
inspirational because it is drawn with a salmon colored pencil.
Most of the anthro and Steiner vocabulary consists of words designed to
obfuscate meaning. If you ask them to define their terms their comeback
is to say that you can't understand them until your soul has been opened
to Anthroposophy. This is hogwash. Any rational person can understand
correctly the beliefs of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism without
being a member of any of those religions. The Anthros want people to be
unaware of their beliefs until they have been fully brainwashed into the
cult.
Keep up the good work!
bdjour
On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 00:25:52 -0800 Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com) writes:
) Su, you asked,
)
) )I am also wondering if you or others, either Dof's or Critics would
) be
) )interested in explaining or summarizing the concepts of
) )Imagination,Inspiration, and Intuition.
) )
) )They come up in so much of Steiner's writing. I would be interested
) in
) )people's understanding of these entities.
)
) "Something must step in to replace sensation. This something is
) Imagination. At this stage, images appear to the occult student in
) exactly the same way as if a sensory object were making an
) impression
) upon him. They are as vivid and true as sensory images, yet they are
)
) not of material, but of soul-spirit origin." [Steiner, Rudolf. The
)
) Stages of Higher Knowledge. Anthroposophic Press, 1967. Translation
)
) authorized for Western Hemisphere by Rudolph Steiner
) Nachlassverwaltung, Dornach, Switzerland. p. 6.]
)
) "Just as Imagination may be called a spiritual seeing, so may
) Inspiration be called a spiritual hearing. Of course, it must be
) quite clear that by the expression 'hearing' is meant a perception
) still further removed from sensory-hearing in the physical world
) than
) "sight" in the imaginative (astral) world is removed from seeing
) with
) the physical eyes." [p. 48]
)
) "Here it will merely be pointed out that what is designated as
) 'Intuition' in occult science has nothing to do with the application
)
) of the word "intuition" in current popular usage....In occult
) science, Intuition is nothing vague and uncertain, but a lofty mode
)
) of cognition, full of the most luminous clarity and the most
) indubitable certainty." [p.47]
)
) "From Inspiration the spiritual observer may rise to Intuition. In
) the manner of expression of occult science this word denotes in many
)
) respects the exact opposite of that for which it is used in ordinary
)
) life. In the ordinary sense intuition is spoken of when one has in
) view a notion dimly felt to be true, which still lacks clear,
) conceptual definition. A preliminary step toward knowledge, rather
) than knowledge itself, is seen therein...Intuition is not a mode of
)
) cognition which with regard to clarity lags behind intellectual
) knowledge, but one that far surpasses it." [pp. 55-56]
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
)
)
________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 13:56:57 -0800
From: "Sarina McDonald" (sarina bainbridge.net)
Subject: Re: Spot the difference
Wow, Bob, I'd like to hear more about your experience - welcome to the
list!
Sarina McDonald
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 17:00:38 -0400
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
CC: dan dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Dan
Happy, happy birthday, Dan! I hope you are having an absolutely wonderful
day and are looking forward to many happy tomorrows.
I will take this chance to thank Dan for all he has done for me and for my
family. If Dan had not started the Waldorf critics list (and if Dan and Deby
had not gotten together to found PLANS), it no doubt would have taken my
family a lot longer to figure out why things were going so wrong for us at
our former Waldorf school. I also want to thank Dan for all the support that
he gave to me and my family during out Waldorf "withdrawal."
You're a great friend, Dan. Thanks for it all ....
Love,
Lisa
P.S.: Do you think we will *ever* meet face to face????
) Hi everyone,
)
) Today is Dan Dugan's birthday. Please join me in wishing him a happy
) one! We're not telling how many candles there are on the cke. He'll have
) to do that himself. :+)
)
) Debra
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 23:32:52 +0100
From: Bob D Jour (bdjour juno.com)
Subject: Re: Spot the difference
Dear Ms. McDonald,
I can assure one and all that the various problems with Waldorf education
as have been discussed in this email group are only the tip of the
iceberg. It is an educational philosophy and pedagogical method that is
simply mad, the ravings of a demented lunatic who was no more than a
sideshow spiritualist. Waldorf education doesn't work. It won't hold up
to any rational evaluation because the Waldorfers refuse to allow their
methods and results to be analyzed, and when they are the results are
dismal. In Europe the students who go through Waldorf schools never
take tests, but then they have to take difficult tests to get into
college, like those for the Ecoles Normale in France and the Abitur in
Germany. And the European Waldorf students bomb those tests like mad.
In some of the German states the Waldorf schools have a pass rate on the
Abitur of less than one quarter that of comparable state schools. One of
the things that you'll find is that Waldorf schools keep almost no
records of achievement. No documents = no statistics = no statistical
comparison. The irony is that Waldorf students in Europe are almost all
Steiner's beloved Aryans and they do worse in their studies than most
state schools that are mixed race. So much for the Steiner Jugend.
The New Age mumbo-jumbo of Steiner, all of the seemingly nice talk about
pleasing colors and spirituality, all of the things that on the surface
sound so nice, are in reality meant to cover up the fact that Steiner's
educational philosophy is a fraud. It is pure undiluted snake oil.
In Bavaria there is an epidemic of rubella because homeopathic quacks who
teach at Waldorf schools are opposed to vaccinations. The situation is
so serious that the US government is considering refusing visas to
Germans unless they have certificates of vaccination. Steiner's beliefs,
quite simply, constitute an irrational and primitive worldview, one that
is ultimately dangerous.
bdjour
On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 13:56:57 -0800 Sarina McDonald
(sarina bainbridge.net) writes:
) Wow, Bob, I'd like to hear more about your experience - welcome to
) the
) list!
)
) Sarina McDonald
)
)
)
________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 23:47:39 +0100
From: Sandra Schlick (sandra.schlick balcab.ch)
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Dan
Happy Birthday Dan. Lots of thanks for your good work here!
Sandra
Debra Snell wrote:
) Hi everyone,
)
) Today is Dan Dugan's birthday. Please join me in wishing him a happy
) one! We're not telling how many candles there are on the cke. He'll have
) to do that himself. :+)
)
) Debra
)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 23:51:36 +0100
From: Sandra Schlick (sandra.schlick balcab.ch)
Subject: Re: Spot the difference
Hi Bob
What do you teach and how could you enter the school without being anthro?
My mom teached handworks without being one, and she entered because we
attained a waldorf school. Thats long ago - fortunately.
Sandra
Bob D Jour wrote:
) Dear Mr. Dugan,
)
) I teach at a Waldorf School in Europe but am not an anthroposophist. If
) you want to understand how Waldorfers use the words Imagination,
) Inspiration, Intuition-- and let us not forget the everpresent Spirit--
) it is instructive to watch Leni Riefenstahl's film "Triumph of the Will."
) Just like the Nazis would repeat the same catchphrases over and over
) again, so too do the Waldorfers use words like Inspiration, etc. not to
) convey meaning, but as mantras. The words are devoid of any real
) meaning, but if repeated long enough they tend to induce hypnosis. Once,
) at one of the weekly 4-hour-long Conference meetings, I heard one teacher
) and ardent Anthro use the word Imagination over 50 times in 5 minutes in
) a discussion about the correct (read Steiner's) way of teaching
) equilateral triangles. As I understand it, equilateral triangles are all
) pretty much the same, but somehow a Steiner equilateral triangle is
) inspirational because it is drawn with a salmon colored pencil.
)
) Most of the anthro and Steiner vocabulary consists of words designed to
) obfuscate meaning. If you ask them to define their terms their comeback
) is to say that you can't understand them until your soul has been opened
) to Anthroposophy. This is hogwash. Any rational person can understand
) correctly the beliefs of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism without
) being a member of any of those religions. The Anthros want people to be
) unaware of their beliefs until they have been fully brainwashed into the
) cult.
)
) Keep up the good work!
) bdjour
)
) On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 00:25:52 -0800 Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com) writes:
) ) Su, you asked,
) )
) ) )I am also wondering if you or others, either Dof's or Critics would
) ) be
) ) )interested in explaining or summarizing the concepts of
) ) )Imagination,Inspiration, and Intuition.
) ) )
) ) )They come up in so much of Steiner's writing. I would be interested
) ) in
) ) )people's understanding of these entities.
) )
) ) "Something must step in to replace sensation. This something is
) ) Imagination. At this stage, images appear to the occult student in
) ) exactly the same way as if a sensory object were making an
) ) impression
) ) upon him. They are as vivid and true as sensory images, yet they are
) )
) ) not of material, but of soul-spirit origin." [Steiner, Rudolf. The
) )
) ) Stages of Higher Knowledge. Anthroposophic Press, 1967. Translation
) )
) ) authorized for Western Hemisphere by Rudolph Steiner
) ) Nachlassverwaltung, Dornach, Switzerland. p. 6.]
) )
) ) "Just as Imagination may be called a spiritual seeing, so may
) ) Inspiration be called a spiritual hearing. Of course, it must be
) ) quite clear that by the expression 'hearing' is meant a perception
) ) still further removed from sensory-hearing in the physical world
) ) than
) ) "sight" in the imaginative (astral) world is removed from seeing
) ) with
) ) the physical eyes." [p. 48]
) )
) ) "Here it will merely be pointed out that what is designated as
) ) 'Intuition' in occult science has nothing to do with the application
) )
) ) of the word "intuition" in current popular usage....In occult
) ) science, Intuition is nothing vague and uncertain, but a lofty mode
) )
) ) of cognition, full of the most luminous clarity and the most
) ) indubitable certainty." [p.47]
) )
) ) "From Inspiration the spiritual observer may rise to Intuition. In
) ) the manner of expression of occult science this word denotes in many
) )
) ) respects the exact opposite of that for which it is used in ordinary
) )
) ) life. In the ordinary sense intuition is spoken of when one has in
) ) view a notion dimly felt to be true, which still lacks clear,
) ) conceptual definition. A preliminary step toward knowledge, rather
) ) than knowledge itself, is seen therein...Intuition is not a mode of
) )
) ) cognition which with regard to clarity lags behind intellectual
) ) knowledge, but one that far surpasses it." [pp. 55-56]
) )
) ) -Dan Dugan
) )
) )
) )
)
) ________________________________________________________________
) GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
) Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
) Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
) http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 00:16:21 +0100
From: Bob D Jour (bdjour juno.com)
Subject: Re: Spot the difference
Hi Sandra,
I'm in Humanities. I won't be any more specific because I've still got a
few months to go on my sentence. The European Waldorf schools are
desperate for qualified teachers, especially since they have so much
trouble getting their students into college. Their faculties are like
revolving doors.
bdjour
On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 23:51:36 +0100 Schlick (sandra.schlick balcab.ch)
writes:
) Hi Bob
) What do you teach and how could you enter the school without being
) anthro?
) My mom teached handworks without being one, and she entered because
) we
) attained a waldorf school. Thats long ago - fortunately.
) Sandra
)
) Bob D Jour wrote:
)
) ) Dear Mr. Dugan,
) )
) ) I teach at a Waldorf School in Europe but am not an
) anthroposophist. If
) ) you want to understand how Waldorfers use the words Imagination,
) ) Inspiration, Intuition-- and let us not forget the everpresent
) Spirit--
) ) it is instructive to watch Leni Riefenstahl's film "Triumph of the
) Will."
) ) Just like the Nazis would repeat the same catchphrases over and
) over
) ) again, so too do the Waldorfers use words like Inspiration, etc.
) not to
) ) convey meaning, but as mantras. The words are devoid of any real
) ) meaning, but if repeated long enough they tend to induce hypnosis.
) Once,
) ) at one of the weekly 4-hour-long Conference meetings, I heard one
) teacher
) ) and ardent Anthro use the word Imagination over 50 times in 5
) minutes in
) ) a discussion about the correct (read Steiner's) way of teaching
) ) equilateral triangles. As I understand it, equilateral triangles
) are all
) ) pretty much the same, but somehow a Steiner equilateral triangle
) is
) ) inspirational because it is drawn with a salmon colored pencil.
) )
) ) Most of the anthro and Steiner vocabulary consists of words
) designed to
) ) obfuscate meaning. If you ask them to define their terms their
) comeback
) ) is to say that you can't understand them until your soul has been
) opened
) ) to Anthroposophy. This is hogwash. Any rational person can
) understand
) ) correctly the beliefs of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism
) without
) ) being a member of any of those religions. The Anthros want people
) to be
) ) unaware of their beliefs until they have been fully brainwashed
) into the
) ) cult.
) )
) ) Keep up the good work!
) ) bdjour
) )
) ) On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 00:25:52 -0800 Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
) writes:
) ) ) Su, you asked,
) ) )
) ) ) )I am also wondering if you or others, either Dof's or Critics
) would
) ) ) be
) ) ) )interested in explaining or summarizing the concepts of
) ) ) )Imagination,Inspiration, and Intuition.
) ) ) )
) ) ) )They come up in so much of Steiner's writing. I would be
) interested
) ) ) in
) ) ) )people's understanding of these entities.
) ) )
) ) ) "Something must step in to replace sensation. This something is
) ) ) Imagination. At this stage, images appear to the occult student
) in
) ) ) exactly the same way as if a sensory object were making an
) ) ) impression
) ) ) upon him. They are as vivid and true as sensory images, yet they
) are
) ) )
) ) ) not of material, but of soul-spirit origin." [Steiner, Rudolf.
) The
) ) )
) ) ) Stages of Higher Knowledge. Anthroposophic Press, 1967.
) Translation
) ) )
) ) ) authorized for Western Hemisphere by Rudolph Steiner
) ) ) Nachlassverwaltung, Dornach, Switzerland. p. 6.]
) ) )
) ) ) "Just as Imagination may be called a spiritual seeing, so may
) ) ) Inspiration be called a spiritual hearing. Of course, it must
) be
) ) ) quite clear that by the expression 'hearing' is meant a
) perception
) ) ) still further removed from sensory-hearing in the physical
) world
) ) ) than
) ) ) "sight" in the imaginative (astral) world is removed from
) seeing
) ) ) with
) ) ) the physical eyes." [p. 48]
) ) )
) ) ) "Here it will merely be pointed out that what is designated as
) ) ) 'Intuition' in occult science has nothing to do with the
) application
) ) )
) ) ) of the word "intuition" in current popular usage....In occult
) ) ) science, Intuition is nothing vague and uncertain, but a lofty
) mode
) ) )
) ) ) of cognition, full of the most luminous clarity and the most
) ) ) indubitable certainty." [p.47]
) ) )
) ) ) "From Inspiration the spiritual observer may rise to Intuition.
) In
) ) ) the manner of expression of occult science this word denotes in
) many
) ) )
) ) ) respects the exact opposite of that for which it is used in
) ordinary
) ) )
) ) ) life. In the ordinary sense intuition is spoken of when one has
) in
) ) ) view a notion dimly felt to be true, which still lacks clear,
) ) ) conceptual definition. A preliminary step toward knowledge,
) rather
) ) ) than knowledge itself, is seen therein...Intuition is not a mode
) of
) ) )
) ) ) cognition which with regard to clarity lags behind intellectual
) ) ) knowledge, but one that far surpasses it." [pp. 55-56]
) ) )
) ) ) -Dan Dugan
) ) )
) ) )
) ) )
) )
) ) ________________________________________________________________
) ) GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
) ) Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
) ) Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
) ) http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
) )
)
)
)
________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 19:18:25 -0500
From: "Green Family" (sjgreen seidata.com)
Subject: RE: Happy Birthday Dan
Happy Birthday to you.... from the Green Family
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 19:29:43 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Dan
on 3/20/02 1:00 PM, Lisa Ercolano at momof2gals mindspring.com wrote:
) Happy, happy birthday, Dan! I hope you are having an absolutely wonderful
) day and are looking forward to many happy tomorrows.
)
) I will take this chance to thank Dan for all he has done for me and for my
) family. If Dan had not started the Waldorf critics list (and if Dan and Deby
) had not gotten together to found PLANS), it no doubt would have taken my
) family a lot longer to figure out why things were going so wrong for us at
) our former Waldorf school. I also want to thank Dan for all the support that
) he gave to me and my family during out Waldorf "withdrawal."
)
) You're a great friend, Dan. Thanks for it all ....
)
) Love,
)
) Lisa
Sharon: I second that!
)
) P.S.: Do you think we will *ever* meet face to face????
Sharon: I'm going to meet him soon (G).
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 15:58:49 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Dan
)You're a great friend, Dan. Thanks for it all ....
You're welcome! I blew out 59 candles at my open house Sunday night.
)P.S.: Do you think we will *ever* meet face to face????
Come to the American Family Foundation conference in Orlando June 14-15?
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 17:24:28 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Dan
Happy Birthday Dan
I used to know you as "that Dugan guy" who hates Waldorf and wants to make
us *enlightened ones* rethink our way of life. I used to think Dan had a
*problem.* I used to dislike the messenger and the message. The times have
changed.
I wish you a happy birthday and a wonderful year.
With thanks.
- Walden
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 01:49:46 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Dan
Happy birthday, Dan, many happy more!
Diana
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 21:06:29 -0600
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: technical difficulties
Hi Sharon,
thanks for the info on Zander. I still haven't managed to track down a copy
of Ahern's Sun at Midnight (it's been on my list of books to get since you
recommended it last year), but once I do I'll let you know what I think.
Peter S.
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 21:13:20 -0600
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: technical difficulties
Hi Dan,
Happy birthday! I finally got a meaningful response from Topica's customer
support today. They wrote:
"Hotmail is currently experiencing intermittent difficulties
receiving messages from Topica. This should be corrected
shortly."
Vague, but promising. I also hear that other wc list members who use hotmail
have been having similar problems; hopefully they'll get worked out soon.
You're right, it would be best to simply quit relying on Microsoft's
generosity, but for now I'm stuck with hotmail as my primary email. Thanks
again for helping sort out the technical difficulties.
Peter S.
)May I suggest...just don't use hotmail? It's free, but you get what
)you pay for. You could just use your -real- email address. In the
)years this list has been running some people have occasionally been
)annoyed by off-list communications, but I don't recall there ever
)being a serious problem.
_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 22:19:56 -0600
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Quote from GA 353
Hi everybody,
I picked up a copy of GA 353 at the library today. The full title is Die
Geschichte der Menschheit und die Weltanschauungen der Kulturvoelker [The
History of Humankind and the Worldviews of the Civilized Peoples], Dornach
1968. The book is a collection of 17 lectures Steiner gave to the workers at
the Goetheanum from March to June, 1924. All of the lectures are responses
to questions posed by members of the audience.
According to the 2002 catalog of the Anthroposophic Press, the English
translation of this book is published under the title From Beetroot to
Buddhism. But the English version, according to the catalog, only contains
16 chapters, not 17 as in the original. I have a sneaking suspicion that the
chapter they left out is the one where Steiner addresses the "historical
mission of the Jewish people", which is the chapter Sandra and Peter Z were
discussing. Does anybody have a copy of From Beetroot to Buddhism by any
chance? If so, please see whether chapter 11 is a lecture from May 8, 1924,
or whether the book skips from the May 5 lecture to the May 10 lecture.
In the German edition, the 11th chapter is titled "Vom Wesen des Judentums"
[On the Essence of Jewry/Judaism], lecture given May 8 1924 (pp. 179-196).
Here one of his listeners aks: "Has the Jewish people fulfilled its mission
within the evolution of humankind?" (183) Steiner eventually answers this
question with an emphatic yes, but first he begins his response by remarking
on how this question can easily lead to "agitation", and declares that one
must address this question in a "wholly objective" manner. (ibid.) He then
describes how the ancient Jews invented monotheism and thereby denied the
existence of spiritual beings within the natural world (which Steiner
insists are real), thus separating themselves from all other peoples of
their time. The theme of self-imposed Jewish estrangement from all other
peoples runs throughout the lecture; Steiner points to "a certain national
egoism within Jewry" ("einen gewissen Volksegoismus im Judentum"; p. 185),
and emphasizes again and again that "the Jews have always differentiated
themselves from other people" and thereby "caused aversion and antipathy"
toward themselves. (188)
Steiner further claims that Jews are "by nature" bad at sculpture and
painting, but good at music (186), and that they are beholden to an
"abstract spirit" and fundamentally characterized by "abstract thinking"
(187), which obviously carries a derogatory connotation within
anthroposophy. The heart of his answer to the question posed comes in this
passage: "the best thing that the Jews could do would be to disappear into
the rest of humankind, to blend in with the rest of humankind, so that Jewry
as a people would simply cease to exist." (189) ["so koennten die Juden
eigentlich nichts Besseres vollbringen, als aufgehen in der uebrigen
Menschheit, sich vermischen mit der uebrigen Menschheit, so dass das
Judentum als Volk einfach aufhoeren wuerde."]
The final sentences of Steiner's reply to this question read: "Today all
aspects of the Jews are dominated by racial qualities. Above all they marry
among themselves. They see the racial qualities, not the spiritual. And this
is what must be said in reply to the question: has the Jewish people
fulfilled its mission within the evolution of human knowledge? It has
fulfilled it; for in earlier times one single people was needed to bring
about a certain monotheism. But today spiritual insight itself is necessary.
Therefore this mission has been fulfilled. And therefore this Jewish mission
as such, as a Jewish mission, is no longer necessary in evolution; instead
the only proper thing would be for the Jews to blend in with the other
peoples and disappear into the other peoples." (190)
The rest of the chapter is, if anything, even worse; Steiner goes on at
length about how the Jews are responsible for their own persecution at the
hands of gentiles. I look forward to learning if this is another case of
anthroposophists hiding Steiner's ugliest teachings by omitting them from
their translations.
Peter S.
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 09:21:10 +0100
From: Sandra Schlick (sandra.schlick balcab.ch)
Subject: Re: Spot the difference
Dear Bob
You speak me out of the heart. I've been in Rudolf Steiner Schule Basel and
had found a way out of that "prison" after 8 years of torture - by my
sadistic teacher. He bound me simply back. When I wanted to present a study
I made, he interrupted me and forced me to present something else later, or,
he forced me to polish his room, when he found me with a book of Hermann
Hesse. We were never allowed to go into a discussion with our own arguments,
we had to listen to our teacher and accept his opinion. We were not educated
to become the critical openminded persons, that were advertised by the
anthros. And fact is, that Rudolf Steiner was racist by himself. I got links
from Peter Staudenmaier on the Waldorf critics site, may be, you want to see
whats it? I copied them below.
Sandra
here are some websites that give background and critical commentary on
concerns about racism within anthroposophist projects:
www.idgr.de/lexikon/stich/a/anthroposophie/anthroposophie.html
www.infosekta.ch/is5/texte/anthroposophie1999_1.html
www.akdh.ch (under dossiers, click on anthroposophiekritik)
www.waldorfcritics.org/active/articles/report000710.html
for more material from Report Mainz, go to:
www.swr-online.de/report/aktuell/index.html
(go to archiv and enter "waldorf" as the Stichwort)
for an official Waldorf response, see:
www.waldorf.net/report.htm
Bob D Jour wrote:
) Dear Ms. McDonald,
)
) I can assure one and all that the various problems with Waldorf education
) as have been discussed in this email group are only the tip of the
) iceberg. It is an educational philosophy and pedagogical method that is
) simply mad, the ravings of a demented lunatic who was no more than a
) sideshow spiritualist. Waldorf education doesn't work. It won't hold up
) to any rational evaluation because the Waldorfers refuse to allow their
) methods and results to be analyzed, and when they are the results are
) dismal. In Europe the students who go through Waldorf schools never
) take tests, but then they have to take difficult tests to get into
) college, like those for the Ecoles Normale in France and the Abitur in
) Germany. And the European Waldorf students bomb those tests like mad.
) In some of the German states the Waldorf schools have a pass rate on the
) Abitur of less than one quarter that of comparable state schools. One of
) the things that you'll find is that Waldorf schools keep almost no
) records of achievement. No documents = no statistics = no statistical
) comparison. The irony is that Waldorf students in Europe are almost all
) Steiner's beloved Aryans and they do worse in their studies than most
) state schools that are mixed race. So much for the Steiner Jugend.
)
) The New Age mumbo-jumbo of Steiner, all of the seemingly nice talk about
) pleasing colors and spirituality, all of the things that on the surface
) sound so nice, are in reality meant to cover up the fact that Steiner's
) educational philosophy is a fraud. It is pure undiluted snake oil.
)
) In Bavaria there is an epidemic of rubella because homeopathic quacks who
) teach at Waldorf schools are opposed to vaccinations. The situation is
) so serious that the US government is considering refusing visas to
) Germans unless they have certificates of vaccination. Steiner's beliefs,
) quite simply, constitute an irrational and primitive worldview, one that
) is ultimately dangerous.
)
) bdjour
)
) On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 13:56:57 -0800 Sarina McDonald
) (sarina bainbridge.net) writes:
) ) Wow, Bob, I'd like to hear more about your experience - welcome to
) ) the
) ) list!
) )
) ) Sarina McDonald
) )
) )
) )
)
) ________________________________________________________________
) GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
) Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
) Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
) http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 09:21:47 +0100
From: Sandra Schlick (sandra.schlick balcab.ch)
Subject: Re: Spot the difference
Hi Bob
What humanities? Like biology?
Bob D Jour wrote:
) Hi Sandra,
)
) I'm in Humanities. I won't be any more specific because I've still got a
) few months to go on my sentence. The European Waldorf schools are
) desperate for qualified teachers, especially since they have so much
) trouble getting their students into college. Their faculties are like
) revolving doors.
)
) bdjour
)
) On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 23:51:36 +0100 Schlick (sandra.schlick balcab.ch)
) writes:
) ) Hi Bob
) ) What do you teach and how could you enter the school without being
) ) anthro?
) ) My mom teached handworks without being one, and she entered because
) ) we
) ) attained a waldorf school. Thats long ago - fortunately.
) ) Sandra
) )
) ) Bob D Jour wrote:
) )
) ) ) Dear Mr. Dugan,
) ) )
) ) ) I teach at a Waldorf School in Europe but am not an
) ) anthroposophist. If
) ) ) you want to understand how Waldorfers use the words Imagination,
) ) ) Inspiration, Intuition-- and let us not forget the everpresent
) ) Spirit--
) ) ) it is instructive to watch Leni Riefenstahl's film "Triumph of the
) ) Will."
) ) ) Just like the Nazis would repeat the same catchphrases over and
) ) over
) ) ) again, so too do the Waldorfers use words like Inspiration, etc.
) ) not to
) ) ) convey meaning, but as mantras. The words are devoid of any real
) ) ) meaning, but if repeated long enough they tend to induce hypnosis.
) ) Once,
) ) ) at one of the weekly 4-hour-long Conference meetings, I heard one
) ) teacher
) ) ) and ardent Anthro use the word Imagination over 50 times in 5
) ) minutes in
) ) ) a discussion about the correct (read Steiner's) way of teaching
) ) ) equilateral triangles. As I understand it, equilateral triangles
) ) are all
) ) ) pretty much the same, but somehow a Steiner equilateral triangle
) ) is
) ) ) inspirational because it is drawn with a salmon colored pencil.
) ) )
) ) ) Most of the anthro and Steiner vocabulary consists of words
) ) designed to
) ) ) obfuscate meaning. If you ask them to define their terms their
) ) comeback
) ) ) is to say that you can't understand them until your soul has been
) ) opened
) ) ) to Anthroposophy. This is hogwash. Any rational person can
) ) understand
) ) ) correctly the beliefs of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism
) ) without
) ) ) being a member of any of those religions. The Anthros want people
) ) to be
) ) ) unaware of their beliefs until they have been fully brainwashed
) ) into the
) ) ) cult.
) ) )
) ) ) Keep up the good work!
) ) ) bdjour
) ) )
) ) ) On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 00:25:52 -0800 Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
) ) writes:
) ) ) ) Su, you asked,
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) )I am also wondering if you or others, either Dof's or Critics
) ) would
) ) ) ) be
) ) ) ) )interested in explaining or summarizing the concepts of
) ) ) ) )Imagination,Inspiration, and Intuition.
) ) ) ) )
) ) ) ) )They come up in so much of Steiner's writing. I would be
) ) interested
) ) ) ) in
) ) ) ) )people's understanding of these entities.
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) "Something must step in to replace sensation. This something is
) ) ) ) Imagination. At this stage, images appear to the occult student
) ) in
) ) ) ) exactly the same way as if a sensory object were making an
) ) ) ) impression
) ) ) ) upon him. They are as vivid and true as sensory images, yet they
) ) are
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) not of material, but of soul-spirit origin." [Steiner, Rudolf.
) ) The
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) Stages of Higher Knowledge. Anthroposophic Press, 1967.
) ) Translation
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) authorized for Western Hemisphere by Rudolph Steiner
) ) ) ) Nachlassverwaltung, Dornach, Switzerland. p. 6.]
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) "Just as Imagination may be called a spiritual seeing, so may
) ) ) ) Inspiration be called a spiritual hearing. Of course, it must
) ) be
) ) ) ) quite clear that by the expression 'hearing' is meant a
) ) perception
) ) ) ) still further removed from sensory-hearing in the physical
) ) world
) ) ) ) than
) ) ) ) "sight" in the imaginative (astral) world is removed from
) ) seeing
) ) ) ) with
) ) ) ) the physical eyes." [p. 48]
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) "Here it will merely be pointed out that what is designated as
) ) ) ) 'Intuition' in occult science has nothing to do with the
) ) application
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) of the word "intuition" in current popular usage....In occult
) ) ) ) science, Intuition is nothing vague and uncertain, but a lofty
) ) mode
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) of cognition, full of the most luminous clarity and the most
) ) ) ) indubitable certainty." [p.47]
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) "From Inspiration the spiritual observer may rise to Intuition.
) ) In
) ) ) ) the manner of expression of occult science this word denotes in
) ) many
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) respects the exact opposite of that for which it is used in
) ) ordinary
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) life. In the ordinary sense intuition is spoken of when one has
) ) in
) ) ) ) view a notion dimly felt to be true, which still lacks clear,
) ) ) ) conceptual definition. A preliminary step toward knowledge,
) ) rather
) ) ) ) than knowledge itself, is seen therein...Intuition is not a mode
) ) of
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) cognition which with regard to clarity lags behind intellectual
) ) ) ) knowledge, but one that far surpasses it." [pp. 55-56]
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) -Dan Dugan
) ) ) )
) ) ) )
) ) ) )
) ) )
) ) ) ________________________________________________________________
) ) ) GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
) ) ) Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
) ) ) Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
) ) ) http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
) ) )
) )
) )
) )
)
) ________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:03:10 +0100
From: Bob D Jour (bdjour juno.com)
Subject: Re: Spot the difference
Dear Sandra,
Thanks so much for the links. I'll definitely put them to good use.
All the best,
bdjour
On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 09:21:10 +0100 Schlick (sandra.schlick balcab.ch)
writes:
) Dear Bob
) You speak me out of the heart. I've been in Rudolf Steiner Schule
) Basel and
) had found a way out of that "prison" after 8 years of torture - by
) my
) sadistic teacher. He bound me simply back. When I wanted to present
) a study
) I made, he interrupted me and forced me to present something else
) later, or,
) he forced me to polish his room, when he found me with a book of
) Hermann
) Hesse. We were never allowed to go into a discussion with our own
) arguments,
) we had to listen to our teacher and accept his opinion. We were not
) educated
) to become the critical openminded persons, that were advertised by
) the
) anthros. And fact is, that Rudolf Steiner was racist by himself. I
) got links
) from Peter Staudenmaier on the Waldorf critics site, may be, you
) want to see
) whats it? I copied them below.
) Sandra
)
) here are some websites that give background and critical commentary
) on
) concerns about racism within anthroposophist projects:
)
) www.idgr.de/lexikon/stich/a/anthroposophie/anthroposophie.html
)
) www.infosekta.ch/is5/texte/anthroposophie1999_1.html
)
) www.akdh.ch (under dossiers, click on anthroposophiekritik)
)
) www.waldorfcritics.org/active/articles/report000710.html
)
) for more material from Report Mainz, go to:
)
) www.swr-online.de/report/aktuell/index.html
)
) (go to archiv and enter "waldorf" as the Stichwort)
)
) for an official Waldorf response, see:
)
) www.waldorf.net/report.htm
)
)
)
)
) Bob D Jour wrote:
)
) ) Dear Ms. McDonald,
) )
) ) I can assure one and all that the various problems with Waldorf
) education
) ) as have been discussed in this email group are only the tip of
) the
) ) iceberg. It is an educational philosophy and pedagogical method
) that is
) ) simply mad, the ravings of a demented lunatic who was no more than
) a
) ) sideshow spiritualist. Waldorf education doesn't work. It won't
) hold up
) ) to any rational evaluation because the Waldorfers refuse to allow
) their
) ) methods and results to be analyzed, and when they are the results
) are
) ) dismal. In Europe the students who go through Waldorf schools
) never
) ) take tests, but then they have to take difficult tests to get
) into
) ) college, like those for the Ecoles Normale in France and the
) Abitur in
) ) Germany. And the European Waldorf students bomb those tests like
) mad.
) ) In some of the German states the Waldorf schools have a pass rate
) on the
) ) Abitur of less than one quarter that of comparable state schools.
) One of
) ) the things that you'll find is that Waldorf schools keep almost
) no
) ) records of achievement. No documents = no statistics = no
) statistical
) ) comparison. The irony is that Waldorf students in Europe are
) almost all
) ) Steiner's beloved Aryans and they do worse in their studies than
) most
) ) state schools that are mixed race. So much for the Steiner
) Jugend.
) )
) ) The New Age mumbo-jumbo of Steiner, all of the seemingly nice talk
) about
) ) pleasing colors and spirituality, all of the things that on the
) surface
) ) sound so nice, are in reality meant to cover up the fact that
) Steiner's
) ) educational philosophy is a fraud. It is pure undiluted snake
) oil.
) )
) ) In Bavaria there is an epidemic of rubella because homeopathic
) quacks who
) ) teach at Waldorf schools are opposed to vaccinations. The
) situation is
) ) so serious that the US government is considering refusing visas
) to
) ) Germans unless they have certificates of vaccination. Steiner's
) beliefs,
) ) quite simply, constitute an irrational and primitive worldview,
) one that
) ) is ultimately dangerous.
) )
) ) bdjour
) )
) ) On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 13:56:57 -0800 Sarina McDonald
) ) (sarina bainbridge.net) writes:
) ) ) Wow, Bob, I'd like to hear more about your experience - welcome
) to
) ) ) the
) ) ) list!
) ) )
) ) ) Sarina McDonald
) ) )
) ) )
) ) )
) )
) ) ________________________________________________________________
) ) GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
) ) Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
) ) Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
) ) http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
) )
)
)
)
________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 673
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Spot the difference
By alice.javanet rcn.com
Re: Do Anthroposophists smile?
By fishnet wish.net
RE: Re: Do Anthroposophists smile?
By Percedol netscape.net
Anti-Semitism in Steiner
By bdjour juno.com
Re: Do Anthroposophists smile?
By momof2gals mindspring.com
RE: Re: Do Anthroposophists smile?
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: -ism in Steiner
By Percedol netscape.net
Re: -ism in Steiner
By bdjour juno.com
Re: Re: Do Anthroposophists smile?
By bdjour juno.com
Re: home visits
By snell gv.net
RE: -ism in Steiner
By Percedol netscape.net
Re: -ism in Steiner
By bdjour juno.com
Re: -ism in Steiner
By sandra.schlick balcab.ch
Re: Do Anthroposophists smile?
By sandra.schlick balcab.ch
karma
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: -ism in Steiner
By bdjour juno.com
Re: -ism in Steiner
By snell gv.net
Re: -ism in Steiner
By snell gv.net
Re: -ism in Steiner
By sandra.schlick balcab.ch
Re: -ism in Steiner
By bdjour juno.com
Re: -ism in Steiner
By sandra.schlick balcab.ch
Re: -ism in Steiner
By bdjour juno.com
Re: -ism in Steiner
By sandra.schlick balcab.ch
Re: -ism in Steiner
By bdjour juno.com
Re: -ism in Steiner
By sandra.schlick balcab.ch
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 08:14:01 -0500
From: Alice K (alice.javanet rcn.com)
Subject: Re: Spot the difference
on 3/20/02 4:06 PM, Bob D Jour at bdjour juno.com wrote:
)snips(
the Nazis would repeat the same catchphrases over and over
) again, so too do the Waldorfers use words like Inspiration, etc. not to
) convey meaning, but as mantras. The words are devoid of any real
) meaning, but if repeated long enough they tend to induce hypnosis. Once,
) at one of the weekly 4-hour-long Conference meetings, I heard one teacher
) and ardent Anthro use the word Imagination over 50 times in 5 minutes in
) a discussion about the correct (read Steiner's) way of teaching
) equilateral triangles. As I understand it, equilateral triangles are all
) pretty much the same, but somehow a Steiner equilateral triangle is
) inspirational because it is drawn with a salmon colored pencil.
)
) Most of the anthro and Steiner vocabulary consists of words designed to
) obfuscate meaning. If you ask them to define their terms their comeback
) is to say that you can't understand them until your soul has been opened
) to Anthroposophy. This is hogwash. Any rational person can understand
) correctly the beliefs of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism without
) being a member of any of those religions. The Anthros want people to be
) unaware of their beliefs until they have been fully brainwashed into the
) cult.
)
) Keep up the good work!
) bdjour
Hi Bob,
Thank you for your courage in coming forward with your perspective. It is so
difficult to untangle the complex web of spiritual,emotional and mental
manipulation of waldorf education.. any clarity about how this is achieved
for those of us still effected is like a beacon of light. (to counteract
metaphor with metaphor)
I appreciate you willing to put yourself at risk. Please do all you can to
protect your identity to avoid retribution. For those of us who have
suffered within the system, it is a terrible thing to experience.
sincerely,
Alice
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 19:13:33 +0100
From: Ann (fishnet wish.net)
Subject: Re: Do Anthroposophists smile?
--=====================_1986471==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
At 13:39 05/01/02 -0400, you wrote:
)Has anyone else noticed that photos of Anthroposophists are almost always
)grim (especially Steiner)?
You are right. Take a look at this site and share it:
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=www.kunsthaus.ch/ausstellungen/steiner/images_Richtkraefte/SteinerPort.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.kunsthaus.ch/ausstellungen/steiner/steinerPort.html&h=220&w=280&prev=/images%3Fq%3Drudolf%2Bsteiner%26start%3D260%26svnum%3D20%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 14:44:00 -0500
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: RE: Re: Do Anthroposophists smile?
Anoush Gesarentz (fishnet wish.net) wrote:
)At 13:39 05/01/02 -0400, you wrote:
))Has anyone else noticed that photos of Anthroposophists are almost always
))grim (especially Steiner)?
Maybe because of being aware of how much hate there would have been
against the spiritual science., or because of how materialistic the
world is becoming, or because there is so much pain in the world, or
because...
Percedol
--
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 22:41:20 +0100
From: Bob D Jour (bdjour juno.com)
Subject: Anti-Semitism in Steiner
Hi,
Many of you have mentioned in the past how Waldorf schools do little or
nothing about bullying because of Steiner's belief that students who are
bullied are receiving payback for transgressions committed in another
life. In other words, the victim brought it on himself. It is
interesting how this recurrent theme parallels the anti-Semitism that is
also a part of Steiner's legacy. What a twisted logic of history. In
Steiner's way of thinking, the Jews are responsible for Hitler and the
Holocaust.
Here is a very good example of Steiner's legacy of hatred. On pages
16-17 of "Macrocosm and Microcosm" (Rudolf Steiner Press, 1968), the
master charlatan himself says:
"If, for example, a normal man--one who is utterly alien to any kind of
mystical experience--suffers a painful blow from another man, his
resentment will be directed against him. That is the natural reaction.
But one who practices mystical deepening will have a quite different
feeling. Such a man feels: You would never have had to suffer this blow
if at some time you had not brought it upon yourself. Otherwise this man
would not have crossed your path. You cannot therefore justifiably turn
your resentment against one who was brought into contact with you through
happenings in the world in order to give you the blow you have deserved."
This is a sick pseudo-religion that eschews personal responsibility and
any form of morality. It is fascism hiding behind a facade of New Age
mysticism. Steiner's beliefs are dangerous, they are amoral, and they
are a threat to the well-being of the children who are being
indoctrinated at Waldorf schools worldwide.
bdjour
________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 16:55:08 -0400
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: Do Anthroposophists smile?
) Anoush Gesarentz (fishnet wish.net) wrote:
)
))At 13:39 05/01/02 -0400, you wrote:
)))Has anyone else noticed that photos of Anthroposophists are almost always
)))grim (especially Steiner)?
)
) Maybe because of being aware of how much hate there would have been against
) the spiritual science., or because of how materialistic the world is
) becoming, or because there is so much pain in the world, or because...
)
) Percedol
.. or maybe because they have a ultra-negative view of almost everything in
the modern world and take themselves far, far too seriously. Or maybe they
are worried that their heads will turn into wolves or dragons or somesuch
every other minute, as Steiner said that human heads are wont to do without
intervention by the body's trunk area.
Lisa
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 17:14:28 -0500
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: RE: Re: Do Anthroposophists smile?
Lisa Ercolano (momof2gals mindspring.com) wrote:
)) Anoush Gesarentz (fishnet wish.net) wrote:
))
)))At 13:39 05/01/02 -0400, you wrote:
))))Has anyone else noticed that photos of Anthroposophists are almost always
))))grim (especially Steiner)?
))
)) Maybe because of being aware of how much hate there would have been against
)) the spiritual science., or because of how materialistic the world is
)) becoming, or because there is so much pain in the world, or because...
))
)) Percedol
)
)
).. or maybe because they have a ultra-negative view of almost everything in
)the modern world and take themselves far, far too seriously. Or maybe they
)are worried that their heads will turn into wolves or dragons or somesuch
)every other minute, as Steiner said that human heads are wont to do without
)intervention by the body's trunk area.
) Lisa
Or maybe not!
Percedol
--
__________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 17:37:29 -0500
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: RE: -ism in Steiner
Bob D Jour (bdjour juno.com) wrote:
)Hi,
)
)Many of you have mentioned in the past how Waldorf schools do little or
)nothing about bullying because of Steiner's belief that students who are
)bullied are receiving payback for transgressions committed in another
)life. In other words, the victim brought it on himself.
P"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
This is a lack of understanding.
One never knows whether you are bullied because something happened in
a past life or is related to a future event.
To intervene and stop bullying is interference? How do they know that
you are not supposed to intervene? And it would be good to teach
discipline and respect for others, not let kids bullying others.
Not intervening is not understanding karma.
Would they let someone be killed because the victim maybe killed the
offender in a previous life?
It is
)interesting how this recurrent theme parallels the anti-Semitism that is
)also a part of Steiner's legacy. What a twisted logic of history. In
)Steiner's way of thinking, the Jews are responsible for Hitler and the
)Holocaust.
P"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
It does not make sense again. I never heard any anthroposophist say
that. And if they do, they don't know anything.
)
)Here is a very good example of Steiner's legacy of hatred. On pages
)16-17 of "Macrocosm and Microcosm" (Rudolf Steiner Press, 1968), the
)master charlatan himself says:
)
)"If, for example, a normal man--one who is utterly alien to any kind of
)mystical experience--suffers a painful blow from another man, his
)resentment will be directed against him. That is the natural reaction.
)But one who practices mystical deepening will have a quite different
)feeling. Such a man feels: You would never have had to suffer this blow
)if at some time you had not brought it upon yourself. Otherwise this man
)would not have crossed your path. You cannot therefore justifiably turn
)your resentment against one who was brought into contact with you through
)happenings in the world in order to give you the blow you have deserved."
)
P""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
So, the only responsible is oneself for what regards himself alone.
If I get my car damaged by vandals, I may think that maybe one day I
possibly did something equivalent to others and fled. The only
responsible, the only one to accuse is myself. Instead of getting
upset I accept my destiny. But this attitude has nothing to do with
the application of the law.
)This is a sick pseudo-religion that eschews personal responsibility and
)any form of morality. It is fascism hiding behind a facade of New Age
)mysticism. Steiner's beliefs are dangerous, they are amoral, and they
)are a threat to the well-being of the children who are being
)indoctrinated at Waldorf schools worldwide.
)
)bdjour
P""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
If it's not understood and is therefore applied in very strange ways,
not if one understands it.
--
__________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 07:01:03 +0100
From: Bob D Jour (bdjour juno.com)
Subject: Re: -ism in Steiner
Hi
Oh, now I see. Bullying is punishment for something that someone might
do in the future. So following this logic why don't we put everyone in
prison because in a future life they might commit a felony? This just
points out the true malevolence of Steiner's beliefs. If they are
followed to their logical conclusion they result in pure unadulterated
evil. Yes, I will admit that Steiner never personally killed a Jew. But
his philosophy is part of the intellectual milieu that allowed the Nazis
to come to power and supplies the Nazi apologists with their strongest
arguments. There is no other way around it. Steiner's position is that
the victim deserves what he gets. The Waldorf and Anthro publications
might show photos of multiracial groups holding hands and singing "It's a
Small World," but that is just eyewash. The belief system that motivates
Waldorf pedagogy and Anthroposophy is racist, anti-humanistic, and
ultimately produces evil. Yes, EVIL.
bdjour
On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 17:37:29 -0500 Percedol netscape.net writes:
) Bob D Jour (bdjour juno.com) wrote:
)
) )Hi,
) )
) )Many of you have mentioned in the past how Waldorf schools do
) little or
) )nothing about bullying because of Steiner's belief that students
) who are
) )bullied are receiving payback for transgressions committed in
) another
) )life. In other words, the victim brought it on himself.
)
) P"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
) This is a lack of understanding.
) One never knows whether you are bullied because something happened
) in a past life or is related to a future event.
) To intervene and stop bullying is interference? How do they know
) that you are not supposed to intervene? And it would be good to
) teach discipline and respect for others, not let kids bullying
) others.
) Not intervening is not understanding karma.
) Would they let someone be killed because the victim maybe killed the
) offender in a previous life?
)
)
) It is
) )interesting how this recurrent theme parallels the anti-Semitism
) that is
) )also a part of Steiner's legacy. What a twisted logic of history.
) In
) )Steiner's way of thinking, the Jews are responsible for Hitler and
) the
) )Holocaust.
)
)
) P"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
) It does not make sense again. I never heard any anthroposophist say
) that. And if they do, they don't know anything.
)
) )
) )Here is a very good example of Steiner's legacy of hatred. On
) pages
) )16-17 of "Macrocosm and Microcosm" (Rudolf Steiner Press, 1968),
) the
) )master charlatan himself says:
) )
) )"If, for example, a normal man--one who is utterly alien to any
) kind of
) )mystical experience--suffers a painful blow from another man, his
) )resentment will be directed against him. That is the natural
) reaction.
) )But one who practices mystical deepening will have a quite
) different
) )feeling. Such a man feels: You would never have had to suffer this
) blow
) )if at some time you had not brought it upon yourself. Otherwise
) this man
) )would not have crossed your path. You cannot therefore justifiably
) turn
) )your resentment against one who was brought into contact with you
) through
) )happenings in the world in order to give you the blow you have
) deserved."
) )
) P""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
) So, the only responsible is oneself for what regards himself alone.
) If I get my car damaged by vandals, I may think that maybe one day I
) possibly did something equivalent to others and fled. The only
) responsible, the only one to accuse is myself. Instead of getting
) upset I accept my destiny. But this attitude has nothing to do with
) the application of the law.
)
)
) )This is a sick pseudo-religion that eschews personal responsibility
) and
) )any form of morality. It is fascism hiding behind a facade of New
) Age
) )mysticism. Steiner's beliefs are dangerous, they are amoral, and
) they
) )are a threat to the well-being of the children who are being
) )indoctrinated at Waldorf schools worldwide.
) )
) )bdjour
)
) P""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
) If it's not understood and is therefore applied in very strange
) ways, not if one understands it.
)
) --
)
)
)
)
) __________________________________________________________________
) Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas.
) Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop Netscape!
) http://shopnow.netscape.com/
)
) Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at
) http://webmail.netscape.com/
)
)
)
________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 07:13:27 +0100
From: Bob D Jour (bdjour juno.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Do Anthroposophists smile?
Hi,
I think that the reason you never see photos of Steiner smiling is that
he's upset that his vacation travel plans to Atlantis were cancelled and
he couldn't book a flight to Vulcan.
Beam me up, Rudolf!
bdjour
On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 17:14:28 -0500 Percedol netscape.net writes:
) Lisa Ercolano (momof2gals mindspring.com) wrote:
)
) )) Anoush Gesarentz (fishnet wish.net) wrote:
) ))
) )))At 13:39 05/01/02 -0400, you wrote:
) ))))Has anyone else noticed that photos of Anthroposophists are
) almost always
) ))))grim (especially Steiner)?
) ))
) )) Maybe because of being aware of how much hate there would have
) been against
) )) the spiritual science., or because of how materialistic the world
) is
) )) becoming, or because there is so much pain in the world, or
) because...
) ))
) )) Percedol
) )
) )
) ).. or maybe because they have a ultra-negative view of almost
) everything in
) )the modern world and take themselves far, far too seriously. Or
) maybe they
) )are worried that their heads will turn into wolves or dragons or
) somesuch
) )every other minute, as Steiner said that human heads are wont to do
) without
) )intervention by the body's trunk area.
) ) Lisa
)
)
) Or maybe not!
)
) Percedol
) --
)
)
)
)
) __________________________________________________________________
) Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas.
) Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop Netscape!
) http://shopnow.netscape.com/
)
) Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at
) http://webmail.netscape.com/
)
)
)
________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 22:49:10 -0800
From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
Subject: Re: home visits
On Wednesday, March 20, 2002, at 04:33 AM, Diana Winters wrote:
)
) Lisa:
)
)) The logistics alone boggle the mind: imagine not only having to
)) )take every child in the class to each home (transportation,
)) permission,
)) insurance, etc
)
) Call me cynical, but in my experience they don't fret much about things
) like permission or insurance.
) Diana
)
Debra:
In my experience too. Max's kinder teacher stuffed all the kids in one
car for an impulsive field trip to the river! Never mind the seat belt
laws, permission slips, adequate supervision, or even a phone call to
even one parent to see if it would be OK. Worse, she was late getting
back to the school, where frantic parents were wondering where everyone
was! No, not even a note could be found. . .
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 06:52:39 +0000
From: (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: -ism in Steiner
Bob D Jour wrote:
) Hi
)
) Oh, now I see. Bullying is punishment for something that someone might
) do in the future. So following this logic why don't we put everyone in
) prison because in a future life they might commit a felony? This just
) points out the true malevolence of Steiner's beliefs. If they are
) followed to their logical conclusion they result in pure unadulterated
) evil. Yes, I will admit that Steiner never personally killed a Jew.
) But
) his philosophy is part of the intellectual milieu that allowed the Nazis
) to come to power and supplies the Nazi apologists with their strongest
) arguments. There is no other way around it. Steiner's position is that
) the victim deserves what he gets. The Waldorf and Anthro publications
) might show photos of multiracial groups holding hands and singing "It's
) a
) Small World," but that is just eyewash. The belief system that
) motivates
) Waldorf pedagogy and Anthroposophy is racist, anti-humanistic, and
) ultimately produces evil. Yes, EVIL.
)
) bdjour
)
P"""""""""""""""""""""""
Who speaks of punishment about future actions? Whatever happens on the
physical plane is karma. Karma may be related to the past or the future.
Following your subtle argumentation one would think that you believe
anthroposophist would say that those who killed Joan of Arc, Jacques
Molay, Giordano Bruno, Socrates, etc. were right and justified. You are
wrong! But in many cases a murder is the result of actions committed in
a previous life. But you never know. And even if this is the case, one
has to work to change things.
Have you seen the movie 'dead again' by Kenneth Branagh?
(http://us.imdb.com/Title?0101669)
Things can be changed. The solution is forgiveness. That stops the
karmic round. You don't wait and do nothing letting things happen. If
one does that, didn't understand.
Percedol
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:00:22 +0100
From: Bob D Jour (bdjour juno.com)
Subject: Re: -ism in Steiner
Hi
Look, you can argue all you want, but Steiner's words speak volumes for
themselves. He wanted the Jews to cease being a race of people and his
philosophy says that the victims deserve the abuse they receive. You can
call it Karma, Kismet or the Oversoul or whatever euphemism you want to
call it, the fact remains that Steiner's philosophy is part and pacel of
the intellectual milieu that allowed National Socialism to flourish and
that provides an out for the Holocaust deniers and apologists. Steiner's
beliefs are part of the anti-Semitic climate of early 20th-century
Germany that produced Hitler's willing executioners.
bdjour
On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 06:52:39 +0000 Percedol netscape.net writes:
)
) Bob D Jour wrote:
) ) Hi
) )
) ) Oh, now I see. Bullying is punishment for something that someone
) might
) ) do in the future. So following this logic why don't we put
) everyone in
) ) prison because in a future life they might commit a felony? This
) just
) ) points out the true malevolence of Steiner's beliefs. If they
) are
) ) followed to their logical conclusion they result in pure
) unadulterated
) ) evil. Yes, I will admit that Steiner never personally killed a
) Jew.
) ) But
) ) his philosophy is part of the intellectual milieu that allowed the
) Nazis
) ) to come to power and supplies the Nazi apologists with their
) strongest
) ) arguments. There is no other way around it. Steiner's position
) is that
) ) the victim deserves what he gets. The Waldorf and Anthro
) publications
) ) might show photos of multiracial groups holding hands and singing
) "It's
) ) a
) ) Small World," but that is just eyewash. The belief system that
) ) motivates
) ) Waldorf pedagogy and Anthroposophy is racist, anti-humanistic,
) and
) ) ultimately produces evil. Yes, EVIL.
) )
) ) bdjour
) )
)
) P"""""""""""""""""""""""
) Who speaks of punishment about future actions? Whatever happens on
) the
) physical plane is karma. Karma may be related to the past or the
) future.
) Following your subtle argumentation one would think that you believe
)
) anthroposophist would say that those who killed Joan of Arc, Jacques
)
) Molay, Giordano Bruno, Socrates, etc. were right and justified. You
) are
) wrong! But in many cases a murder is the result of actions committed
) in
) a previous life. But you never know. And even if this is the case,
) one
) has to work to change things.
) Have you seen the movie 'dead again' by Kenneth Branagh?
) (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0101669)
) Things can be changed. The solution is forgiveness. That stops the
) karmic round. You don't wait and do nothing letting things happen.
) If
) one does that, didn't understand.
)
) Percedol
)
)
)
)
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
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Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:28:40 +0100
From: Sandra Schlick (sandra.schlick balcab.ch)
Subject: Re: -ism in Steiner
Hi Bob
One of my greatest wishes is, that all Waldorf schools would be closed down
by law. If you see a possibility to go for that, I'm in!
I wish you a good day
Sandra
Bob D Jour wrote:
) Hi
)
) Oh, now I see. Bullying is punishment for something that someone might
) do in the future. So following this logic why don't we put everyone in
) prison because in a future life they might commit a felony? This just
) points out the true malevolence of Steiner's beliefs. If they are
) followed to their logical conclusion they result in pure unadulterated
) evil. Yes, I will admit that Steiner never personally killed a Jew. But
) his philosophy is part of the intellectual milieu that allowed the Nazis
) to come to power and supplies the Nazi apologists with their strongest
) arguments. There is no other way around it. Steiner's position is that
) the victim deserves what he gets. The Waldorf and Anthro publications
) might show photos of multiracial groups holding hands and singing "It's a
) Small World," but that is just eyewash. The belief system that motivates
) Waldorf pedagogy and Anthroposophy is racist, anti-humanistic, and
) ultimately produces evil. Yes, EVIL.
)
) bdjour
)
) On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 17:37:29 -0500 Percedol netscape.net writes:
) ) Bob D Jour (bdjour juno.com) wrote:
) )
) ) )Hi,
) ) )
) ) )Many of you have mentioned in the past how Waldorf schools do
) ) little or
) ) )nothing about bullying because of Steiner's belief that students
) ) who are
) ) )bullied are receiving payback for transgressions committed in
) ) another
) ) )life. In other words, the victim brought it on himself.
) )
) ) P"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
) ) This is a lack of understanding.
) ) One never knows whether you are bullied because something happened
) ) in a past life or is related to a future event.
) ) To intervene and stop bullying is interference? How do they know
) ) that you are not supposed to intervene? And it would be good to
) ) teach discipline and respect for others, not let kids bullying
) ) others.
) ) Not intervening is not understanding karma.
) ) Would they let someone be killed because the victim maybe killed the
) ) offender in a previous life?
) )
) )
) ) It is
) ) )interesting how this recurrent theme parallels the anti-Semitism
) ) that is
) ) )also a part of Steiner's legacy. What a twisted logic of history.
) ) In
) ) )Steiner's way of thinking, the Jews are responsible for Hitler and
) ) the
) ) )Holocaust.
) )
) )
) ) P"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
) ) It does not make sense again. I never heard any anthroposophist say
) ) that. And if they do, they don't know anything.
) )
) ) )
) ) )Here is a very good example of Steiner's legacy of hatred. On
) ) pages
) ) )16-17 of "Macrocosm and Microcosm" (Rudolf Steiner Press, 1968),
) ) the
) ) )master charlatan himself says:
) ) )
) ) )"If, for example, a normal man--one who is utterly alien to any
) ) kind of
) ) )mystical experience--suffers a painful blow from another man, his
) ) )resentment will be directed against him. That is the natural
) ) reaction.
) ) )But one who practices mystical deepening will have a quite
) ) different
) ) )feeling. Such a man feels: You would never have had to suffer this
) ) blow
) ) )if at some time you had not brought it upon yourself. Otherwise
) ) this man
) ) )would not have crossed your path. You cannot therefore justifiably
) ) turn
) ) )your resentment against one who was brought into contact with you
) ) through
) ) )happenings in the world in order to give you the blow you have
) ) deserved."
) ) )
) ) P""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
) ) So, the only responsible is oneself for what regards himself alone.
) ) If I get my car damaged by vandals, I may think that maybe one day I
) ) possibly did something equivalent to others and fled. The only
) ) responsible, the only one to accuse is myself. Instead of getting
) ) upset I accept my destiny. But this attitude has nothing to do with
) ) the application of the law.
) )
) )
) ) )This is a sick pseudo-religion that eschews personal responsibility
) ) and
) ) )any form of morality. It is fascism hiding behind a facade of New
) ) Age
) ) )mysticism. Steiner's beliefs are dangerous, they are amoral, and
) ) they
) ) )are a threat to the well-being of the children who are being
) ) )indoctrinated at Waldorf schools worldwide.
) ) )
) ) )bdjour
) )
) ) P""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
) ) If it's not understood and is therefore applied in very strange
) ) ways, not if one understands it.
) )
) ) --
) )
) )
) )
) )
) ) __________________________________________________________________
) ) Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas.
) ) Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop Netscape!
) ) http://shopnow.netscape.com/
) )
) ) Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at
) ) http://webmail.netscape.com/
) )
) )
) )
)
) ________________________________________________________________
) GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
) Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
) Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
) http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:32:06 +0100
From: Sandra Schlick (sandra.schlick balcab.ch)
Subject: Re: Do Anthroposophists smile?
As I once said: who is not able to love is not able to hate just to be
sadistic. Love would require to be openminded and tolerant and to be
openminded requires that one is not racist. Who can't love has may be
problems to laugh or may be doesn't have so much humour. Imagine how
boresome a live is without love, may be, I couldn't laugh either if I were
in that situation :)
Sandra
Bob D Jour wrote:
) Hi,
)
) I think that the reason you never see photos of Steiner smiling is that
) he's upset that his vacation travel plans to Atlantis were cancelled and
) he couldn't book a flight to Vulcan.
)
) Beam me up, Rudolf!
)
) bdjour
)
) On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 17:14:28 -0500 Percedol netscape.net writes:
) ) Lisa Ercolano (momof2gals mindspring.com) wrote:
) )
) ) )) Anoush Gesarentz (fishnet wish.net) wrote:
) ) ))
) ) )))At 13:39 05/01/02 -0400, you wrote:
) ) ))))Has anyone else noticed that photos of Anthroposophists are
) ) almost always
) ) ))))grim (especially Steiner)?
) ) ))
) ) )) Maybe because of being aware of how much hate there would have
) ) been against
) ) )) the spiritual science., or because of how materialistic the world
) ) is
) ) )) becoming, or because there is so much pain in the world, or
) ) because...
) ) ))
) ) )) Percedol
) ) )
) ) )
) ) ).. or maybe because they have a ultra-negative view of almost
) ) everything in
) ) )the modern world and take themselves far, far too seriously. Or
) ) maybe they
) ) )are worried that their heads will turn into wolves or dragons or
) ) somesuch
) ) )every other minute, as Steiner said that human heads are wont to do
) ) without
) ) )intervention by the body's trunk area.
) ) ) Lisa
) )
) )
) ) Or maybe not!
) )
) ) Percedol
) ) --
) )
) )
) )
) )
) ) __________________________________________________________________
) ) Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas.
) ) Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop Netscape!
) ) http://shopnow.netscape.com/
) )
) ) Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at
) ) http://webmail.netscape.com/
) )
) )
) )
)
) ________________________________________________________________
) GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
) Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
) Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
) http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 22:49:26 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: karma
(snip) "We intend to follow up this direction and show how the laws of
reincarnation and karma, seen from this point of view, are a
natural-scientific necessity. It seems most peculiar that so many people
pass by the question of the origin of the soul-nature simply because they
fear that they might find themselves caught in an uncertain field of
knowledge. They will be shown what the great scientist Carl Gegenbaur (see
Note 2) has said about Darwinism. Even if the direct assertions of Darwin
may not be entirely correct, yet they have led to discoveries which without
them would not have been made. In a convincing manner Darwin has pointed to
the evolution of one form of life out of another one, and this has
stimulated the research into the relationships of such forms. Even those who
contest the errors of Darwinism ought to realize that this same Darwinism
has brought clarity and certainty to the research into animal and plant
evolution, thus throwing light into dark reaches of the working of nature.
Its errors will be overcome by itself. If it did not exist, we should not
have its beneficial consequences. In regard to the spiritual life, the
person who fears uncertainty concerning the anthroposophical conception
ought to concede to it the same possibility; even though anthroposophical
teachings were not completely correct, yet they would, out of their very
nature, lead to the light concerning the riddles of the soul. To them, too,
we shall owe clarity and certainty. And since they are concerned with our
spiritual destiny, our human destination, our highest tasks, the bringing
about of this clarity and certainty ought to be the most significant concern
of our life. In this sphere, striving for knowledge is at the same time a
moral necessity, an absolute moral duty." (snip)
Reincarnation and Karma
REINCARNATION AND KARMA
Concepts Compelled by the Modern Scientific Point of view
by Dr. Rudolf Steiner http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Articles/ReKarm_e01.html
Interesting how Steiner talks of "knowledge" and occultism at the same time.
I am torn between a feeling of comfort for now understanding the perceived
"moral duty" of some Waldorf teachers (I used to think there was something
not quite right but did not know what) and disturbed by my new-found
understanding of this *knowledge.* Sure - they can research karma and
believe they are scientists and chant and worship the sun and live their
lives any which way they please... just stop duping parents with this
religion while playing the enlightened cosmic guru with children.
- Walden
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:44:36 +0100
From: Bob D Jour (bdjour juno.com)
Subject: Re: -ism in Steiner
Hi Sandra,
I think the way to combat Anthroposophy and the Waldorf movement is to
expose the philosophy behind it. The public needs to know that Steiner
was a racist, that racism is a central tenet of Steiner's beliefs. It is
eerie to me sometimes how there are passages in Steiner's writings that
sound like they are right out of Mein Kampf. The Waldorfers are masters
of public relations. They make very convincing appeals to people who are
interested in the arts, to vegetarians, to people who are concerned about
technology, etc. But it's also important to remember that Hitler was a
vegetarian, a teetotaler, and wanted to get back to the roots of Arayan
culture. Gee, sounds like Rudolf Steiner. The thing that the Anthos and
Waldorfers fear most is for their true ideas to be exposed. Public
exposure is the best way to combat this sickness.
bdjour
On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:28:40 +0100 Schlick (sandra.schlick balcab.ch)
writes:
) Hi Bob
) One of my greatest wishes is, that all Waldorf schools would be
) closed down
) by law. If you see a possibility to go for that, I'm in!
) I wish you a good day
) Sandra
)
) Bob D Jour wrote:
)
) ) Hi
) )
) ) Oh, now I see. Bullying is punishment for something that someone
) might
) ) do in the future. So following this logic why don't we put
) everyone in
) ) prison because in a future life they might commit a felony? This
) just
) ) points out the true malevolence of Steiner's beliefs. If they
) are
) ) followed to their logical conclusion they result in pure
) unadulterated
) ) evil. Yes, I will admit that Steiner never personally killed a
) Jew. But
) ) his philosophy is part of the intellectual milieu that allowed the
) Nazis
) ) to come to power and supplies the Nazi apologists with their
) strongest
) ) arguments. There is no other way around it. Steiner's position
) is that
) ) the victim deserves what he gets. The Waldorf and Anthro
) publications
) ) might show photos of multiracial groups holding hands and singing
) "It's a
) ) Small World," but that is just eyewash. The belief system that
) motivates
) ) Waldorf pedagogy and Anthroposophy is racist, anti-humanistic,
) and
) ) ultimately produces evil. Yes, EVIL.
) )
) ) bdjour
) )
) ) On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 17:37:29 -0500 Percedol netscape.net writes:
) ) ) Bob D Jour (bdjour juno.com) wrote:
) ) )
) ) ) )Hi,
) ) ) )
) ) ) )Many of you have mentioned in the past how Waldorf schools do
) ) ) little or
) ) ) )nothing about bullying because of Steiner's belief that
) students
) ) ) who are
) ) ) )bullied are receiving payback for transgressions committed in
) ) ) another
) ) ) )life. In other words, the victim brought it on himself.
) ) )
) ) ) P"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
) ) ) This is a lack of understanding.
) ) ) One never knows whether you are bullied because something
) happened
) ) ) in a past life or is related to a future event.
) ) ) To intervene and stop bullying is interference? How do they
) know
) ) ) that you are not supposed to intervene? And it would be good to
) ) ) teach discipline and respect for others, not let kids bullying
) ) ) others.
) ) ) Not intervening is not understanding karma.
) ) ) Would they let someone be killed because the victim maybe killed
) the
) ) ) offender in a previous life?
) ) )
) ) )
) ) ) It is
) ) ) )interesting how this recurrent theme parallels the
) anti-Semitism
) ) ) that is
) ) ) )also a part of Steiner's legacy. What a twisted logic of
) history.
) ) ) In
) ) ) )Steiner's way of thinking, the Jews are responsible for Hitler
) and
) ) ) the
) ) ) )Holocaust.
) ) )
) ) )
) ) ) P"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
) ) ) It does not make sense again. I never heard any anthroposophist
) say
) ) ) that. And if they do, they don't know anything.
) ) )
) ) ) )
) ) ) )Here is a very good example of Steiner's legacy of hatred. On
) ) ) pages
) ) ) )16-17 of "Macrocosm and Microcosm" (Rudolf Steiner Press,
) 1968),
) ) ) the
) ) ) )master charlatan himself says:
) ) ) )
) ) ) )"If, for example, a normal man--one who is utterly alien to
) any
) ) ) kind of
) ) ) )mystical experience--suffers a painful blow from another man,
) his
) ) ) )resentment will be directed against him. That is the natural
) ) ) reaction.
) ) ) )But one who practices mystical deepening will have a quite
) ) ) different
) ) ) )feeling. Such a man feels: You would never have had to suffer
) this
) ) ) blow
) ) ) )if at some time you had not brought it upon yourself.
) Otherwise
) ) ) this man
) ) ) )would not have crossed your path. You cannot therefore
) justifiably
) ) ) turn
) ) ) )your resentment against one who was brought into contact with
) you
) ) ) through
) ) ) )happenings in the world in order to give you the blow you have
) ) ) deserved."
) ) ) )
) ) ) P""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
) ) ) So, the only responsible is oneself for what regards himself
) alone.
) ) ) If I get my car damaged by vandals, I may think that maybe one
) day I
) ) ) possibly did something equivalent to others and fled. The only
) ) ) responsible, the only one to accuse is myself. Instead of
) getting
) ) ) upset I accept my destiny. But this attitude has nothing to do
) with
) ) ) the application of the law.
) ) )
) ) )
) ) ) )This is a sick pseudo-religion that eschews personal
) responsibility
) ) ) and
) ) ) )any form of morality. It is fascism hiding behind a facade of
) New
) ) ) Age
) ) ) )mysticism. Steiner's beliefs are dangerous, they are amoral,
) and
) ) ) they
) ) ) )are a threat to the well-being of the children who are being
) ) ) )indoctrinated at Waldorf schools worldwide.
) ) ) )
) ) ) )bdjour
) ) )
) ) ) P""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
) ) ) If it's not understood and is therefore applied in very strange
) ) ) ways, not if one understands it.
) ) )
) ) ) --
) ) )
) ) )
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 23:57:04 -0800
From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
Subject: Re: -ism in Steiner
On Thursday, March 21, 2002, at 11:00 PM, Bob D Jour wrote:
) Hi
)
) Look, you can argue all you want, but Steiner's words speak volumes for
) themselves. He wanted the Jews to cease being a race of people and his
) philosophy says that the victims deserve the abuse they receive. You
) can
) call it Karma, Kismet or the Oversoul or whatever euphemism you want to
) call it, the fact remains that Steiner's philosophy is part and pacel of
) the intellectual milieu that allowed National Socialism to flourish and
) that provides an out for the Holocaust deniers and apologists.
) Steiner's
) beliefs are part of the anti-Semitic climate of early 20th-century
) Germany that produced Hitler's willing executioners.
)
) bdjour
)
Debra:
So how the heck did you ever land yourself a teaching position at a
Waldorf school? How did you ever get past the training? Where were you
trained? I can't see you getting through one book, much less the entire
indoctrination process. Why are you still there? Doesn't make sense to
me.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 00:07:40 -0800
From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
Subject: Re: -ism in Steiner
On Thursday, March 21, 2002, at 11:44 PM, Bob D Jour wrote:
) Hi Sandra,
)
) I think the way to combat Anthroposophy and the Waldorf movement is to
) expose the philosophy behind it. The public needs to know that Steiner
) was a racist, that racism is a central tenet of Steiner's beliefs. It
) is
) eerie to me sometimes how there are passages in Steiner's writings that
) sound like they are right out of Mein Kampf. The Waldorfers are masters
) of public relations. They make very convincing appeals to people who
) are
) interested in the arts, to vegetarians, to people who are concerned
) about
) technology, etc. But it's also important to remember that Hitler was a
) vegetarian, a teetotaler, and wanted to get back to the roots of Arayan
) culture. Gee, sounds like Rudolf Steiner. The thing that the Anthos
) and
) Waldorfers fear most is for their true ideas to be exposed. Public
) exposure is the best way to combat this sickness.
)
)
Debra:
Currently there are three lawsuits against Waldorf schools in the USA.
PLANS lawsuit (in appeals) alleging church-state issues; another lawsuit
regarding a public funded Waldorf school who must answer to the
allegation of violation of special education laws (Steiner's version of
karma is apparently more important than state laws), and now a new
lawsuit alleging rascist hiring practices against a private Waldorf
school filed on March 7, 2002.(PLANS has been asked to be the publicist
on this oner. We are awaiting more information.)
The under sided rocks of Anthroposophy are being exposed to the light of
day, at long last. Where will they run to hide?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 09:16:55 +0100
From: Sandra Schlick (sandra.schlick balcab.ch)
Subject: Re: -ism in Steiner
Hi Debra
In europe, nothing the like is happening that I know of. Do you know?
Sandra
Debra Snell wrote:
) On Thursday, March 21, 2002, at 11:44 PM, Bob D Jour wrote:
)
) ) Hi Sandra,
) )
) ) I think the way to combat Anthroposophy and the Waldorf movement is to
) ) expose the philosophy behind it. The public needs to know that Steiner
) ) was a racist, that racism is a central tenet of Steiner's beliefs. It
) ) is
) ) eerie to me sometimes how there are passages in Steiner's writings that
) ) sound like they are right out of Mein Kampf. The Waldorfers are masters
) ) of public relations. They make very convincing appeals to people who
) ) are
) ) interested in the arts, to vegetarians, to people who are concerned
) ) about
) ) technology, etc. But it's also important to remember that Hitler was a
) ) vegetarian, a teetotaler, and wanted to get back to the roots of Arayan
) ) culture. Gee, sounds like Rudolf Steiner. The thing that the Anthos
) ) and
) ) Waldorfers fear most is for their true ideas to be exposed. Public
) ) exposure is the best way to combat this sickness.
) )
) )
) Debra:
)
) Currently there are three lawsuits against Waldorf schools in the USA.
) PLANS lawsuit (in appeals) alleging church-state issues; another lawsuit
) regarding a public funded Waldorf school who must answer to the
) allegation of violation of special education laws (Steiner's version of
) karma is apparently more important than state laws), and now a new
) lawsuit alleging rascist hiring practices against a private Waldorf
) school filed on March 7, 2002.(PLANS has been asked to be the publicist
) on this oner. We are awaiting more information.)
)
) The under sided rocks of Anthroposophy are being exposed to the light of
) day, at long last. Where will they run to hide?
)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 09:14:46 +0100
From: Bob D Jour (bdjour juno.com)
Subject: Re: -ism in Steiner
Hi Debra,
I just fell into the job as a last-minute replacement. It's provided me
with the opportunity to do some inside research on the situation. I have
no Waldorf training and I only have a few months to go. Fortunately, I'm
not dependent on the job for my living. Kudos to PLANS for fighting the
good fight. I will, however, say that PLANS underestimates just how
truly awful Waldorf pedagogy is. The Anthros are far worse than the
Scientologists because the Anthros are so cynical in the way that they
sugarcoat and disguise their hideous belief system. And most of the
victims of Scientology are adults. The victims of the Anthro/Waldorf
cult are primarily children.
bdjour
On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 23:57:04 -0800 Debra Snell (snell gv.net) writes:
)
) On Thursday, March 21, 2002, at 11:00 PM, Bob D Jour wrote:
)
) ) Hi
) )
) ) Look, you can argue all you want, but Steiner's words speak
) volumes for
) ) themselves. He wanted the Jews to cease being a race of people
) and his
) ) philosophy says that the victims deserve the abuse they receive.
) You
) ) can
) ) call it Karma, Kismet or the Oversoul or whatever euphemism you
) want to
) ) call it, the fact remains that Steiner's philosophy is part and
) pacel of
) ) the intellectual milieu that allowed National Socialism to
) flourish and
) ) that provides an out for the Holocaust deniers and apologists.
) ) Steiner's
) ) beliefs are part of the anti-Semitic climate of early
) 20th-century
) ) Germany that produced Hitler's willing executioners.
) )
) ) bdjour
) )
)
) Debra:
)
) So how the heck did you ever land yourself a teaching position at a
)
) Waldorf school? How did you ever get past the training? Where were
) you
) trained? I can't see you getting through one book, much less the
) entire
) indoctrination process. Why are you still there? Doesn't make sense
) to
) me.
)
)
)
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 09:23:06 +0100
From: Sandra Schlick (sandra.schlick balcab.ch)
Subject: Re: -ism in Steiner
Hi Bob
I'm one of those victims. I already told my story here, if you want me to, I
can post it again. Thats why I'm very interested that something happens.
Sandra
Bob D Jour wrote:
) Hi Debra,
)
) I just fell into the job as a last-minute replacement. It's provided me
) with the opportunity to do some inside research on the situation. I have
) no Waldorf training and I only have a few months to go. Fortunately, I'm
) not dependent on the job for my living. Kudos to PLANS for fighting the
) good fight. I will, however, say that PLANS underestimates just how
) truly awful Waldorf pedagogy is. The Anthros are far worse than the
) Scientologists because the Anthros are so cynical in the way that they
) sugarcoat and disguise their hideous belief system. And most of the
) victims of Scientology are adults. The victims of the Anthro/Waldorf
) cult are primarily children.
)
) bdjour
)
) On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 23:57:04 -0800 Debra Snell (snell gv.net) writes:
) )
) ) On Thursday, March 21, 2002, at 11:00 PM, Bob D Jour wrote:
) )
) ) ) Hi
) ) )
) ) ) Look, you can argue all you want, but Steiner's words speak
) ) volumes for
) ) ) themselves. He wanted the Jews to cease being a race of people
) ) and his
) ) ) philosophy says that the victims deserve the abuse they receive.
) ) You
) ) ) can
) ) ) call it Karma, Kismet or the Oversoul or whatever euphemism you
) ) want to
) ) ) call it, the fact remains that Steiner's philosophy is part and
) ) pacel of
) ) ) the intellectual milieu that allowed National Socialism to
) ) flourish and
) ) ) that provides an out for the Holocaust deniers and apologists.
) ) ) Steiner's
) ) ) beliefs are part of the anti-Semitic climate of early
) ) 20th-century
) ) ) Germany that produced Hitler's willing executioners.
) ) )
) ) ) bdjour
) ) )
) )
) ) Debra:
) )
) ) So how the heck did you ever land yourself a teaching position at a
) )
) ) Waldorf school? How did you ever get past the training? Where were
) ) you
) ) trained? I can't see you getting through one book, much less the
) ) entire
) ) indoctrination process. Why are you still there? Doesn't make sense
) ) to
) ) me.
) )
) )
) )
)
) ________________________________________________________________
) GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
) Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
) Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
) http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 09:41:12 +0100
From: Bob D Jour (bdjour juno.com)
Subject: Re: -ism in Steiner
Hi Sandra,
No, I don't know of any concerted effort against the Waldorf movement in
Europe. There's no real equivalent of the American concept of
church/state separation here, and the Anthros/Waldorfers seem to be
pretty well funded. The best way to expose them is to quote directly
from Steiner. They can't sue for libel if Steiner's works are being
quoted. The last thing that the Anthros/Waldorfers want is for Steiner
to be read by free-thinking people. And another great thing is that
Steiner's works are published only by the Rudolf Steiner
Press/Anthroposophical Press, so the English translations are officially
sanctioned. So they can't even respond by saying that the translations
are inaccurate.
I think there could be a case made against Steiner in Germany if the
effort is made to show how Steiner's racism is similar to Nazism. When
Steiner says that the Jewish race should cease to exist it is only
different in degree, not kind, from similar statements by Hitler. Of
course, the Anthros will respond by saying that Hitler closed down all of
the Waldorf schools. But Hitler also ruthlessly suppressed the
brownshirts and they were good Nazis as well. It is possible that a
similar case could be made against Steiner in France. Perhaps there is a
crusading European lawyer out there who would like to take a crack at it.
All the best,
bdjour
On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 09:23:06 +0100 Schlick (sandra.schlick balcab.ch)
writes:
) Hi Bob
) I'm one of those victims. I already told my story here, if you want
) me to, I
) can post it again. Thats why I'm very interested that something
) happens.
) Sandra
)
) Bob D Jour wrote:
)
) ) Hi Debra,
) )
) ) I just fell into the job as a last-minute replacement. It's
) provided me
) ) with the opportunity to do some inside research on the situation.
) I have
) ) no Waldorf training and I only have a few months to go.
) Fortunately, I'm
) ) not dependent on the job for my living. Kudos to PLANS for
) fighting the
) ) good fight. I will, however, say that PLANS underestimates just
) how
) ) truly awful Waldorf pedagogy is. The Anthros are far worse than
) the
) ) Scientologists because the Anthros are so cynical in the way that
) they
) ) sugarcoat and disguise their hideous belief system. And most of
) the
) ) victims of Scientology are adults. The victims of the
) Anthro/Waldorf
) ) cult are primarily children.
) )
) ) bdjour
) )
) ) On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 23:57:04 -0800 Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
) writes:
) ) )
) ) ) On Thursday, March 21, 2002, at 11:00 PM, Bob D Jour wrote:
) ) )
) ) ) ) Hi
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) Look, you can argue all you want, but Steiner's words speak
) ) ) volumes for
) ) ) ) themselves. He wanted the Jews to cease being a race of
) people
) ) ) and his
) ) ) ) philosophy says that the victims deserve the abuse they
) receive.
) ) ) You
) ) ) ) can
) ) ) ) call it Karma, Kismet or the Oversoul or whatever euphemism
) you
) ) ) want to
) ) ) ) call it, the fact remains that Steiner's philosophy is part
) and
) ) ) pacel of
) ) ) ) the intellectual milieu that allowed National Socialism to
) ) ) flourish and
) ) ) ) that provides an out for the Holocaust deniers and
) apologists.
) ) ) ) Steiner's
) ) ) ) beliefs are part of the anti-Semitic climate of early
) ) ) 20th-century
) ) ) ) Germany that produced Hitler's willing executioners.
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) bdjour
) ) ) )
) ) )
) ) ) Debra:
) ) )
) ) ) So how the heck did you ever land yourself a teaching position
) at a
) ) )
) ) ) Waldorf school? How did you ever get past the training? Where
) were
) ) ) you
) ) ) trained? I can't see you getting through one book, much less
) the
) ) ) entire
) ) ) indoctrination process. Why are you still there? Doesn't make
) sense
) ) ) to
) ) ) me.
) ) )
) ) )
) ) )
) )
) ) ________________________________________________________________
) ) GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
) ) Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
) ) Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
) ) http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
) )
)
)
)
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:28:08 +0100
From: Sandra Schlick (sandra.schlick balcab.ch)
Subject: Re: -ism in Steiner
Bob
I went to rudolf steiner schule basel (switzerland) which is known the most
extreme school, as its closest to Dornach Goetheanum. What do you think
about switzerland?
Bob D Jour wrote:
) Hi Sandra,
)
) No, I don't know of any concerted effort against the Waldorf movement in
) Europe. There's no real equivalent of the American concept of
) church/state separation here, and the Anthros/Waldorfers seem to be
) pretty well funded. The best way to expose them is to quote directly
) from Steiner. They can't sue for libel if Steiner's works are being
) quoted. The last thing that the Anthros/Waldorfers want is for Steiner
) to be read by free-thinking people. And another great thing is that
) Steiner's works are published only by the Rudolf Steiner
) Press/Anthroposophical Press, so the English translations are officially
) sanctioned. So they can't even respond by saying that the translations
) are inaccurate.
)
) I think there could be a case made against Steiner in Germany if the
) effort is made to show how Steiner's racism is similar to Nazism. When
) Steiner says that the Jewish race should cease to exist it is only
) different in degree, not kind, from similar statements by Hitler. Of
) course, the Anthros will respond by saying that Hitler closed down all of
) the Waldorf schools. But Hitler also ruthlessly suppressed the
) brownshirts and they were good Nazis as well. It is possible that a
) similar case could be made against Steiner in France. Perhaps there is a
) crusading European lawyer out there who would like to take a crack at it.
)
) All the best,
)
) bdjour
)
) On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 09:23:06 +0100 Schlick (sandra.schlick balcab.ch)
) writes:
) ) Hi Bob
) ) I'm one of those victims. I already told my story here, if you want
) ) me to, I
) ) can post it again. Thats why I'm very interested that something
) ) happens.
) ) Sandra
) )
) ) Bob D Jour wrote:
) )
) ) ) Hi Debra,
) ) )
) ) ) I just fell into the job as a last-minute replacement. It's
) ) provided me
) ) ) with the opportunity to do some inside research on the situation.
) ) I have
) ) ) no Waldorf training and I only have a few months to go.
) ) Fortunately, I'm
) ) ) not dependent on the job for my living. Kudos to PLANS for
) ) fighting the
) ) ) good fight. I will, however, say that PLANS underestimates just
) ) how
) ) ) truly awful Waldorf pedagogy is. The Anthros are far worse than
) ) the
) ) ) Scientologists because the Anthros are so cynical in the way that
) ) they
) ) ) sugarcoat and disguise their hideous belief system. And most of
) ) the
) ) ) victims of Scientology are adults. The victims of the
) ) Anthro/Waldorf
) ) ) cult are primarily children.
) ) )
) ) ) bdjour
) ) )
) ) ) On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 23:57:04 -0800 Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
) ) writes:
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) On Thursday, March 21, 2002, at 11:00 PM, Bob D Jour wrote:
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) ) Hi
) ) ) ) )
) ) ) ) ) Look, you can argue all you want, but Steiner's words speak
) ) ) ) volumes for
) ) ) ) ) themselves. He wanted the Jews to cease being a race of
) ) people
) ) ) ) and his
) ) ) ) ) philosophy says that the victims deserve the abuse they
) ) receive.
) ) ) ) You
) ) ) ) ) can
) ) ) ) ) call it Karma, Kismet or the Oversoul or whatever euphemism
) ) you
) ) ) ) want to
) ) ) ) ) call it, the fact remains that Steiner's philosophy is part
) ) and
) ) ) ) pacel of
) ) ) ) ) the intellectual milieu that allowed National Socialism to
) ) ) ) flourish and
) ) ) ) ) that provides an out for the Holocaust deniers and
) ) apologists.
) ) ) ) ) Steiner's
) ) ) ) ) beliefs are part of the anti-Semitic climate of early
) ) ) ) 20th-century
) ) ) ) ) Germany that produced Hitler's willing executioners.
) ) ) ) )
) ) ) ) ) bdjour
) ) ) ) )
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) Debra:
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) So how the heck did you ever land yourself a teaching position
) ) at a
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) Waldorf school? How did you ever get past the training? Where
) ) were
) ) ) ) you
) ) ) ) trained? I can't see you getting through one book, much less
) ) the
) ) ) ) entire
) ) ) ) indoctrination process. Why are you still there? Doesn't make
) ) sense
) ) ) ) to
) ) ) ) me.
) ) ) )
) ) ) )
) ) ) )
) ) )
) ) ) ________________________________________________________________
) ) ) GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
) ) ) Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
) ) ) Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
) ) ) http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
) ) )
) )
) )
) )
)
) ________________________________________________________________
) GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
) Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
) Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
) http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:22:28 +0100
From: Bob D Jour (bdjour juno.com)
Subject: Re: -ism in Steiner
Hi Sandra,
I don't know about Switzerland. I suppose it would make a difference if
Switzerland has laws against the spread of Nazi ideology or advocating
racist doctrines. In America PLANS can go after the Waldorf schools for
violating church/state separation, but they can't legally attack
Steiner's racist ideology because virtually all political speech in
America (short of advocating treason) is protected by the 1st Amendment
to the Constitution. I imagine that if the Swiss Waldorf schools are
responsible for physical and/or emotional abuse of children there would
probably be some way via Swiss law to go after them. It's just a
thought.
All the best,
bdjour
On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:28:08 +0100 Schlick (sandra.schlick balcab.ch)
writes:
) Bob
) I went to rudolf steiner schule basel (switzerland) which is known
) the most
) extreme school, as its closest to Dornach Goetheanum. What do you
) think
) about switzerland?
)
) Bob D Jour wrote:
)
) ) Hi Sandra,
) )
) ) No, I don't know of any concerted effort against the Waldorf
) movement in
) ) Europe. There's no real equivalent of the American concept of
) ) church/state separation here, and the Anthros/Waldorfers seem to
) be
) ) pretty well funded. The best way to expose them is to quote
) directly
) ) from Steiner. They can't sue for libel if Steiner's works are
) being
) ) quoted. The last thing that the Anthros/Waldorfers want is for
) Steiner
) ) to be read by free-thinking people. And another great thing is
) that
) ) Steiner's works are published only by the Rudolf Steiner
) ) Press/Anthroposophical Press, so the English translations are
) officially
) ) sanctioned. So they can't even respond by saying that the
) translations
) ) are inaccurate.
) )
) ) I think there could be a case made against Steiner in Germany if
) the
) ) effort is made to show how Steiner's racism is similar to Nazism.
) When
) ) Steiner says that the Jewish race should cease to exist it is
) only
) ) different in degree, not kind, from similar statements by Hitler.
) Of
) ) course, the Anthros will respond by saying that Hitler closed down
) all of
) ) the Waldorf schools. But Hitler also ruthlessly suppressed the
) ) brownshirts and they were good Nazis as well. It is possible that
) a
) ) similar case could be made against Steiner in France. Perhaps
) there is a
) ) crusading European lawyer out there who would like to take a crack
) at it.
) )
) ) All the best,
) )
) ) bdjour
) )
) ) On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 09:23:06 +0100 Schlick
) (sandra.schlick balcab.ch)
) ) writes:
) ) ) Hi Bob
) ) ) I'm one of those victims. I already told my story here, if you
) want
) ) ) me to, I
) ) ) can post it again. Thats why I'm very interested that something
) ) ) happens.
) ) ) Sandra
) ) )
) ) ) Bob D Jour wrote:
) ) )
) ) ) ) Hi Debra,
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) I just fell into the job as a last-minute replacement. It's
) ) ) provided me
) ) ) ) with the opportunity to do some inside research on the
) situation.
) ) ) I have
) ) ) ) no Waldorf training and I only have a few months to go.
) ) ) Fortunately, I'm
) ) ) ) not dependent on the job for my living. Kudos to PLANS for
) ) ) fighting the
) ) ) ) good fight. I will, however, say that PLANS underestimates
) just
) ) ) how
) ) ) ) truly awful Waldorf pedagogy is. The Anthros are far worse
) than
) ) ) the
) ) ) ) Scientologists because the Anthros are so cynical in the way
) that
) ) ) they
) ) ) ) sugarcoat and disguise their hideous belief system. And most
) of
) ) ) the
) ) ) ) victims of Scientology are adults. The victims of the
) ) ) Anthro/Waldorf
) ) ) ) cult are primarily children.
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) bdjour
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 23:57:04 -0800 Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
) ) ) writes:
) ) ) ) )
) ) ) ) ) On Thursday, March 21, 2002, at 11:00 PM, Bob D Jour wrote:
) ) ) ) )
) ) ) ) ) ) Hi
) ) ) ) ) )
) ) ) ) ) ) Look, you can argue all you want, but Steiner's words
) speak
) ) ) ) ) volumes for
) ) ) ) ) ) themselves. He wanted the Jews to cease being a race of
) ) ) people
) ) ) ) ) and his
) ) ) ) ) ) philosophy says that the victims deserve the abuse they
) ) ) receive.
) ) ) ) ) You
) ) ) ) ) ) can
) ) ) ) ) ) call it Karma, Kismet or the Oversoul or whatever
) euphemism
) ) ) you
) ) ) ) ) want to
) ) ) ) ) ) call it, the fact remains that Steiner's philosophy is
) part
) ) ) and
) ) ) ) ) pacel of
) ) ) ) ) ) the intellectual milieu that allowed National Socialism
) to
) ) ) ) ) flourish and
) ) ) ) ) ) that provides an out for the Holocaust deniers and
) ) ) apologists.
) ) ) ) ) ) Steiner's
) ) ) ) ) ) beliefs are part of the anti-Semitic climate of early
) ) ) ) ) 20th-century
) ) ) ) ) ) Germany that produced Hitler's willing executioners.
) ) ) ) ) )
) ) ) ) ) ) bdjour
) ) ) ) ) )
) ) ) ) )
) ) ) ) ) Debra:
) ) ) ) )
) ) ) ) ) So how the heck did you ever land yourself a teaching
) position
) ) ) at a
) ) ) ) )
) ) ) ) ) Waldorf school? How did you ever get past the training?
) Where
) ) ) were
) ) ) ) ) you
) ) ) ) ) trained? I can't see you getting through one book, much
) less
) ) ) the
) ) ) ) ) entire
) ) ) ) ) indoctrination process. Why are you still there? Doesn't
) make
) ) ) sense
) ) ) ) ) to
) ) ) ) ) me.
) ) ) ) )
) ) ) ) )
) ) ) ) )
) ) ) )
) ) ) )
) ________________________________________________________________
) ) ) ) GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
) ) ) ) Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
) ) ) ) Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
) ) ) ) http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
) ) ) )
) ) )
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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:52:35 +0100
From: Sandra Schlick (sandra.schlick balcab.ch)
Subject: Re: -ism in Steiner
Hi Bob
You brought me to an idea: we have a law against racist speach! Somebody
who is extremely right winged and sais it can be pursuited in switzerland
(eg someone who sais "Auschwitzlie" or against our people from other
nations)!!!!! Thats a possibility.
Sandra
Bob D Jour wrote:
) Hi Sandra,
)
) I don't know about Switzerland. I suppose it would make a difference if
) Switzerland has laws against the spread of Nazi ideology or advocating
) racist doctrines. In America PLANS can go after the Waldorf schools for
) violating church/state separation, but they can't legally attack
) Steiner's racist ideology because virtually all political speech in
) America (short of advocating treason) is protected by the 1st Amendment
) to the Constitution. I imagine that if the Swiss Waldorf schools are
) responsible for physical and/or emotional abuse of children there would
) probably be some way via Swiss law to go after them. It's just a
) thought.
)
) All the best,
)
) bdjour
)
)
) On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:28:08 +0100 Schlick (sandra.schlick balcab.ch)
) writes:
) ) Bob
) ) I went to rudolf steiner schule basel (switzerland) which is known
) ) the most
) ) extreme school, as its closest to Dornach Goetheanum. What do you
) ) think
) ) about switzerland?
) )
) ) Bob D Jour wrote:
) )
) ) ) Hi Sandra,
) ) )
) ) ) No, I don't know of any concerted effort against the Waldorf
) ) movement in
) ) ) Europe. There's no real equivalent of the American concept of
) ) ) church/state separation here, and the Anthros/Waldorfers seem to
) ) be
) ) ) pretty well funded. The best way to expose them is to quote
) ) directly
) ) ) from Steiner. They can't sue for libel if Steiner's works are
) ) being
) ) ) quoted. The last thing that the Anthros/Waldorfers want is for
) ) Steiner
) ) ) to be read by free-thinking people. And another great thing is
) ) that
) ) ) Steiner's works are published only by the Rudolf Steiner
) ) ) Press/Anthroposophical Press, so the English translations are
) ) officially
) ) ) sanctioned. So they can't even respond by saying that the
) ) translations
) ) ) are inaccurate.
) ) )
) ) ) I think there could be a case made against Steiner in Germany if
) ) the
) ) ) effort is made to show how Steiner's racism is similar to Nazism.
) ) When
) ) ) Steiner says that the Jewish race should cease to exist it is
) ) only
) ) ) different in degree, not kind, from similar statements by Hitler.
) ) Of
) ) ) course, the Anthros will respond by saying that Hitler closed down
) ) all of
) ) ) the Waldorf schools. But Hitler also ruthlessly suppressed the
) ) ) brownshirts and they were good Nazis as well. It is possible that
) ) a
) ) ) similar case could be made against Steiner in France. Perhaps
) ) there is a
) ) ) crusading European lawyer out there who would like to take a crack
) ) at it.
) ) )
) ) ) All the best,
) ) )
) ) ) bdjour
) ) )
) ) ) On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 09:23:06 +0100 Schlick
) ) (sandra.schlick balcab.ch)
) ) ) writes:
) ) ) ) Hi Bob
) ) ) ) I'm one of those victims. I already told my story here, if you
) ) want
) ) ) ) me to, I
) ) ) ) can post it again. Thats why I'm very interested that something
) ) ) ) happens.
) ) ) ) Sandra
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) Bob D Jour wrote:
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) ) Hi Debra,
) ) ) ) )
) ) ) ) ) I just fell into the job as a last-minute replacement. It's
) ) ) ) provided me
) ) ) ) ) with the opportunity to do some inside research on the
) ) situation.
) ) ) ) I have
) ) ) ) ) no Waldorf training and I only have a few months to go.
) ) ) ) Fortunately, I'm
) ) ) ) ) not dependent on the job for my living. Kudos to PLANS for
) ) ) ) fighting the
) ) ) ) ) good fight. I will, however, say that PLANS underestimates
) ) just
) ) ) ) how
) ) ) ) ) truly awful Waldorf pedagogy is. The Anthros are far worse
) ) than
) ) ) ) the
) ) ) ) ) Scientologists because the Anthros are so cynical in the way
) ) that
) ) ) ) they
) ) ) ) ) sugarcoat and disguise their hideous belief system. And most
) ) of
) ) ) ) the
) ) ) ) ) victims of Scientology are adults. The victims of the
) ) ) ) Anthro/Waldorf
) ) ) ) ) cult are primarily children.
) ) ) ) )
) ) ) ) ) bdjour
) ) ) ) )
) ) ) ) ) On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 23:57:04 -0800 Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
) ) ) ) writes:
) ) ) ) ) )
) ) ) ) ) ) On Thursday, March 21, 2002, at 11:00 PM, Bob D Jour wrote:
) ) ) ) ) )
) ) ) ) ) ) ) Hi
) ) ) ) ) ) )
) ) ) ) ) ) ) Look, you can argue all you want, but Steiner's words
) ) speak
) ) ) ) ) ) volumes for
) ) ) ) ) ) ) themselves. He wanted the Jews to cease being a race of
) ) ) ) people
) ) ) ) ) ) and his
) ) ) ) ) ) ) philosophy says that the victims deserve the abuse they
) ) ) ) receive.
) ) ) ) ) ) You
) ) ) ) ) ) ) can
) ) ) ) ) ) ) call it Karma, Kismet or the Oversoul or whatever
) ) euphemism
) ) ) ) you
) ) ) ) ) ) want to
) ) ) ) ) ) ) call it, the fact remains that Steiner's philosophy is
) ) part
) ) ) ) and
) ) ) ) ) ) pacel of
) ) ) ) ) ) ) the intellectual milieu that allowed National Socialism
) ) to
) ) ) ) ) ) flourish and
) ) ) ) ) ) ) that provides an out for the Holocaust deniers and
) ) ) ) apologists.
) ) ) ) ) ) ) Steiner's
) ) ) ) ) ) ) beliefs are part of the anti-Semitic climate of early
) ) ) ) ) ) 20th-century
) ) ) ) ) ) ) Germany that produced Hitler's willing executioners.
) ) ) ) ) ) )
) ) ) ) ) ) ) bdjour
) ) ) ) ) ) )
) ) ) ) ) )
) ) ) ) ) ) Debra:
) ) ) ) ) )
) ) ) ) ) ) So how the heck did you ever land yourself a teaching
) ) position
) ) ) ) at a
) ) ) ) ) )
) ) ) ) ) ) Waldorf school? How did you ever get past the training?
) ) Where
) ) ) ) were
) ) ) ) ) ) you
) ) ) ) ) ) trained? I can't see you getting through one book, much
) ) less
) ) ) ) the
) ) ) ) ) ) entire
) ) ) ) ) ) indoctrination process. Why are you still there? Doesn't
) ) make
) ) ) ) sense
) ) ) ) ) ) to
) ) ) ) ) ) me.
) ) ) ) ) )
) ) ) ) ) )
) ) ) ) ) )
) ) ) ) )
) ) ) ) )
) ) ________________________________________________________________
) ) ) ) ) GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
) ) ) ) ) Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
) ) ) ) ) Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
) ) ) ) ) http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
) ) ) ) )
) ) ) )
) ) ) )
) ) ) )
) ) )
) ) ) ________________________________________________________________
) ) ) GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
) ) ) Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
) ) ) Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
) ) ) http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
) ) )
) )
) )
) )
)
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------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 674
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Anti-Semitism in Steiner
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
Re: Imagination. Intuition, Inspiration
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: quote of the day
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: Spot the difference
By koala noos.fr
Re: Happy Birthday Dan
By koala noos.fr
Re: Do Anthroposophists smile?
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: Spot the difference
By mysplum earthlink.net
RE: Re: -ism in Steiner
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: Re: Anti-Semitism in Steiner
By Percedol netscape.net
Antisemitism: Steiner's and Percedol's
By pstaud hotmail.com
RE: Re: Anti-Semitism in Steiner
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
Happy B-Day to PLANS webmaster
By snell gv.net
RE: Antistaudenmeierism: Steiner's and Percedol's
By Percedol netscape.net
Percedol's antisemitism
By peter_zegers runbox.no
Re: Spot the difference
By dan dandugan.com
Re: -ism in Steiner
By dan dandugan.com
RE: Happy B-Day to PLANS webmaster
By sjgreen seidata.com
Re: Happy B-Day to PLANS webmaster
By sandra.schlick balcab.ch
Re: Do Anthroposophists smile?
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: Happy B-Day to PLANS webmaster
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: Percedol's antisemitism
By pstaud hotmail.com
RE: Percedol's antizegerism
By Percedol netscape.net
the KKK and personality "types"
By momof2gals mindspring.com
The KKK and personality "types"
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Admin: ad hominem warning [Re: Percedol's antisemitism]
By dan dandugan.com
Re: -ism in Steiner
By sandra.schlick balcab.ch
RE: Re: Anti-kiwitism in Steiner
By Percedol netscape.net
Re: -ism in Steiner
By snell gv.net
RE: Percedol's antifrivolism
By Percedol netscape.net
Re: -ism in Steiner
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:58:34 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Anti-Semitism in Steiner
Percedol:
)One never knows whether you are bullied because something happened in a
)past life or is related to a future event.
So maybe the victim is not getting payback for something he did in a past
life, but will be recompensed in the next. The bully has his reasons, either
way, and either already has or someday will get what's coming to him. What's
a bystander to do?
Whether the events are from the remote past or are related to a remote
future, it discourages action in the present. It encourages rumination on
supposed deep mystical unknown meanings. Things may not be what they seem,
so you should hesitate before taking action. It becomes very hard to say,
"Stop that."
It is fine to say you ought to interfere anyway, and not interfering
is not understanding karma. In that case, it seems some Waldorf
teachers "don't understand karma." Maybe not, it seems a pretty
slippery concept to get hold of. The anthroposophists tell us either we
understand or we don't, based on our level of spiritual preparedness or
openness. It's morally repugnant.
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:35:08 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Imagination. Intuition, Inspiration
In Steiner's doctrinal vocabulary, his three worlds of Imagination,
Inspiration and Intuition are veiled words, meaning they have different
meanings than the ordinary connotations of the words. Steiner's world of
*Imagination* can also be referred to as Astral world or Elemental world.
This is where elemental beings such as gnomes and fairies live, the beings
of earth, air, fire and water. *Inspiration* can also be termed the
Harmonies of the spheres, the Mental world, the heaven world or Devachan.
*Intuition* is also the world of reason, the highest world where angels
live.
If the devotee follows Steiner's directions to the 3 spirit worlds mentioned
above, he will see spirit beings, see through walls, taste and smell astral
beings, hear the hush of the color and light impressions of the thoughts of
soul and spirit beings that speak in color and light. In extroverted union,
the adherent will dip into other beings and objects, he will no longer feel
"outside" but "inside" people or objects. The devotee's astral body will
grow "larger and larger until the astral body becomes one with the whole
cosmic sphere. In doing this it becomes ever thinner, while being absorbed
by the whole surrounding world" (Steiner, Secrets of the Threshold, 139-40.
lectures from 1913, Anthroposophic Press Hudson NY or London, 1987).
Microcosmic man becomes one with the macrocosm. The follower of Steiner's
path can go back and face past lives, (even on Atlantis), can see the Sun at
midnight, can see through the Earth, etc.
One of the ways to get to Steiner's higher worlds of angels and spirits, is
to devote yourself to color. When the observer in higher worlds understands
what Imagination really is, he will know that the pictures of the astral
world are not merely pictures but manifestations of spiritual beings. He
must learn to discriminate between the lower opaque beings, the intermediary
beings that are transparent and the higher spiritual beings that are
radiating light from within.
Steiner said "Occult science designs all sorts of symbolic drawings and
pictures. When these correspond to fact and are not mere invented figures,
they are based on the observer's experiences in higher worlds..." (Steiner,
Stages of Higher Knowledge, Anthro Press 1967). And of course occult science
makes children in Waldorf school paint these icons.
Diana posted a rather marvelous find from a rabbi who was told that the
fuzzy watercolor paintings made in Waldorf schools are pictures of
spirits..and Sune tried to pretend it was just modern art!!!! GGGRRRRR!!!
What is worse, when I asked our ***ex-Waldorf*** teacher what the heck the
fuzzy wet-on-wet blobs etc. were, she told me it was "color theory"! When
asked again, she said it was "Steiner's philosophy". To this day, I can
still see her eyes, I knew at the time by looking at her that she was lying,
she was hiding something. I'm so glad I searched long enough to answer my
questions. Quit the lies Waldorfers, that's all we ask!!! Waldorf promises
to develop your child's IMAGINATION...you bet they will attempt to develop
your child's ability to astral travel, see spirits and see through walls. It
would be nice if they bothered to tell prospective parents this before they
enroll children. It would be nice if parents were informed of Steiner's
doctrinal vocabulary and three worlds. Waldorf should supply parents with a
dictionary of Anthro words and their real meanings. Art based school? Bah
humbug. It's a magical mystery school. A great place for New Agers, but not
for Free Thinkers!
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 09:12:43 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: quote of the day
Sharon: One of the texts that I had to read for my class on cults was that
by sociologist of religion Elizabeth Puttick's book entitled "Women in New
Religions: In Search of Community, Sexuality and Spiritual Power". One of
the difficulties I had with the book are her grand assertions that are
false, such as claiming that Buddhism is the fastest growing religion in the
world which is completely false. First comes Islam then Mormonism and
Pentecostalism. Anyway, here's a quote from her book, NRM means new
religious movement which is a politically correct way of saying "cult", my
difficulty with the term is that these movements are not "new", many are
over a hundred years old and are based on stuff that is thousands of years
old:
"Free schools comprise a spectrum from secular schools like Summerhill,
through the more systematic Montessori schools, to Steiner schools that are
within an NRM (Anthroposophy) but attended by many non-members. Steiner
schools are a popular choice among New Agers, particularly one in Totnes,
Devon (a centre of the New Age in Britain), and another set up in
conjunction with the Findhorn community."
(p148 Puttick, Women in New Religions, St. Martin's Press New York 1997).
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 16:25:26 +0100
From: (koala noos.fr)
Subject: Re: Spot the difference
)le 20/03/02 22:06, Bob D Jour ? bdjour juno.com a ?crit?:
) Dear Mr. Dugan,
)
) I teach at a Waldorf School in Europe but am not an anthroposophist.
How can you still teach there after what you wrote below?
) If
) you want to understand how Waldorfers use the words Imagination,
) Inspiration, Intuition-- and let us not forget the everpresent Spirit--
) it is instructive to watch Leni Riefenstahl's film "Triumph of the Will."
Saw the movie. It's available as a video. Any totalitarian regime knows
those techniques.
) Just like the Nazis would repeat the same catchphrases over and over
) again, so too do the Waldorfers use words like Inspiration, etc. not to
) convey meaning, but as mantras. The words are devoid of any real
) meaning, but if repeated long enough they tend to induce hypnosis. Once,
) at one of the weekly 4-hour-long Conference meetings, I heard one teacher
) and ardent Anthro use the word Imagination over 50 times in 5 minutes in
) a discussion about the correct (read Steiner's) way of teaching
) equilateral triangles. As I understand it, equilateral triangles are all
) pretty much the same, but somehow a Steiner equilateral triangle is
) inspirational because it is drawn with a salmon colored pencil.
)
) Most of the anthro and Steiner vocabulary consists of words designed to
) obfuscate meaning.
This is also part of NLP.
) If you ask them to define their terms their comeback
) is to say that you can't understand them until your soul has been opened
) to Anthroposophy. This is hogwash. Any rational person can understand
) correctly the beliefs of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism without
) being a member of any of those religions. The Anthros want people to be
) unaware of their beliefs until they have been fully brainwashed into the
) cult.
So it would mean that you started as a normal teacher, and you have to fully
become an anthroposophist if you don't want to go back on what you have said
or done as an upright teacher.
So what are you waiting to say that you were a teacher in a Waldorf school
(instead of saying that you are one).
)
) Keep up the good work!
) bdjour
)
) (snip)
koala.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 16:29:54 +0100
From: (koala noos.fr)
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Dan
A nice "ad hominem" attack:
happy birthday Mr Dugan...
koala.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:56:59 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Do Anthroposophists smile?
)))
))))) Anoush Gesarentz (fishnet wish.net) wrote:
)))))
)))))) At 13:39 05/01/02 -0400, you wrote:
))))))) Has anyone else noticed that photos of Anthroposophists are
))) almost always
))))))) grim (especially Steiner)?
)))))
))))) Percedol: Maybe because of being aware of how much hate there would have
))) been against
))))) the spiritual science., or because of how materialistic the world
))) is
))))) becoming, or because there is so much pain in the world, or
))) because...
Sharon: Well, I'd agree that most photos I've seen of Steiner and other
Anthros are grim, but actually, in my experience, the Anthroposophists I
knew did smile. I am quite a smiley person myself, I almost always smile at
people and usually get a smile back. I remember smiling at Waldorfers and
getting smiled at, I'd even say that sometimes Anthroposophists would smile
at me before I smiled at them. I can only think of two Anthroposophists who
were dour. One woman was wigged out on Anthroposophy so bad that she was at
a level of seriousness that could be considered unhealthy. As another Anthro
put it, "she is very deep". (And yes she was deeply esoteric says I after
reading Steiner for myself!) Last I heard, her fellow Anthros were asking
her to seek therapy, poor thing had gone off the deep end, was too deep even
for them! The other dour woman just didn't "have a sense of humor" as she
put it. In my experience, the Anthros at our ***ex-school*** smiled often,
which is perhaps one of the reasons they duped me for as long as they did. I
always perceived them as being kind and content...until I realized that they
were not telling parents like me about their esoteric gnosis. Then all of a
sudden, I stopped viewing them as kind because they were liars and
cheats...smiling at me because they had secrets and I, a fool.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:59:29 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Spot the difference
on 3/22/02 7:25 AM, koala noos.fr at koala noos.fr wrote:
)) le 20/03/02 22:06, Bob D Jour ? bdjour juno.com a ?crit?:
)
)) Dear Mr. Dugan,
))
)) I teach at a Waldorf School in Europe but am not an anthroposophist.
)
) How can you still teach there after what you wrote below?
Sharon: Because Micha...I mean Mr. Du Jour doesn't teach at a Waldorf
School.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:51:45 -0500
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: RE: Re: -ism in Steiner
Bob D Jour (bdjour juno.com) wrote:
)Hi Sandra,
)
)No, I don't know of any concerted effort against the Waldorf movement in
)Europe. There's no real equivalent of the American concept of
)church/state separation here, and the Anthros/Waldorfers seem to be
)pretty well funded. The best way to expose them is to quote directly
)from Steiner. They can't sue for libel if Steiner's works are being
)quoted. The last thing that the Anthros/Waldorfers want is for Steiner
)to be read by free-thinking people. And another great thing is that
)Steiner's works are published only by the Rudolf Steiner
)Press/Anthroposophical Press, so the English translations are officially
)sanctioned. So they can't even respond by saying that the translations
)are inaccurate.
P"""""""""""""""""""""""
That is not completely true anymore. At least in Italy anybody can
publish Steiner's works, and they do. We are very glad about that.
For example, a few years ago, a major editor, Mondadori, published
PoF in their 'classics' series. I hope more and more gets published
and gets the attention of people.
)
)I think there could be a case made against Steiner in Germany if the
)effort is made to show how Steiner's racism is similar to Nazism.
When
)Steiner says that the Jewish race should cease to exist it is only
)different in degree, not kind, from similar statements by Hitler.
P"""""""""""""""""
Just any regular Catholic in Italy would think that it is a tragic
situation waiting for a Messiah that already came and still wait.
And anyone would think that the best outcome would be to convert to
Christianity. But today, thanks to the freedom of speech, these
things cannot be said anymore...
Of
)course, the Anthros will respond by saying that Hitler closed down all of
)the Waldorf schools. But Hitler also ruthlessly suppressed the
)brownshirts and they were good Nazis as well. It is possible that a
)similar case could be made against Steiner in France. Perhaps there is a
)crusading European lawyer out there who would like to take a crack at it.
P""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Then the spiritual science would be forbidden by law? So much for the
new world order...
Percedol
--
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:02:15 -0500
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: RE: Re: Anti-Semitism in Steiner
Diana Winters (Winters_Diana hotmail.com) wrote:
)
)Percedol:
)
))One never knows whether you are bullied because something happened in a
))past life or is related to a future event.
)
)So maybe the victim is not getting payback for something he did in a past
)life, but will be recompensed in the next. The bully has his reasons, either
)way, and either already has or someday will get what's coming to him. What's
)a bystander to do?
)
)Whether the events are from the remote past or are related to a remote
)future, it discourages action in the present. It encourages rumination on
)supposed deep mystical unknown meanings. Things may not be what they seem,
)so you should hesitate before taking action. It becomes very hard to say,
)"Stop that."
)
)It is fine to say you ought to interfere anyway, and not interfering
)is not understanding karma. In that case, it seems some Waldorf
)teachers "don't understand karma." Maybe not, it seems a pretty
)slippery concept to get hold of. The anthroposophists tell us either we
)understand or we don't, based on our level of spiritual preparedness or
)openness. It's morally repugnant.
)Diana
)
P""""""""""""""""""""
No, karma involves all humankind, not just two people at the time.
You should always intervene. And in any case, you can take others
karma on you. Your vision of karma is pretty Hinduistic, not
Steiner's.
The knowledge of reincarnation and karma is the basis for real
morality and ethics. But you have to understand it. Look at the
Gospels: how many crimes were committed in that name. Jesus was not
responsible for those errors. Steiner is not responsible if people do
not understand. Understanding is a problem in and out of the Society
or the Movement. Not just for those out. And those who are in and did
not understand are responsible. No surprise that eventually someone
noticed that something may be wrong.
--
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:08:57 -0600
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Antisemitism: Steiner's and Percedol's
Hi critics,
Bob made an interesting point about the potential role of Steiner's
antisemitic teachings in today's Germany. I very much agree with Bob about
anthroposophy's contribution to the cultural climate that made Nazism
possible in early 20th century Germany. I think I disagree with Bob on one
issue:
)I think there could be a case made against Steiner in Germany if the
)effort is made to show how Steiner's racism is similar to Nazism.
)When Steiner says that the Jewish race should cease to exist it is only
)different in degree, not kind, from similar statements by Hitler.
I'd say that these really are two different kinds of antisemitism, not just
different degrees of the same type of antisemitic thinking. This may sound
like nitpicking, but historians of antisemitism take these distinctions
seriously, for good reason in my opinion. Hitler's biological version of
antisemitism was based on the notion that Jews needed to be physically
eliminated from German society, and eventually from the world. The Nazis
killed many Jews who had converted to Christianity; in their view, Jews
constituted a biological threat to the Aryan race.
Steiner's spiritual version of antisemitism, in contrast, viewed the
continued existence of Jews as a cultural and spiritual threat to Aryan
progress toward the Universal Human. Steiner taught that all Jews should
renounce both Judaism and Jewishness, that they should cease being Jews and
instead transform themselves into Christians (via his own peculiar take on
Christianity) and "Germans" as he understood that term (namely as an
ethnic-spiritual category). Rather than direct physical elimination, Steiner
promoted cultural-ethnic elimination.
But there are two further absolutely crucial points that need to be made
here (and I think this is what Bob was getting at, too): One, these two
variants of antisemitism both had the same eventual goal -- no more Jews --
despite the obvious difference in methods. Two, both variants were
integrally related to one another, historically and ideologically. Hitler's
racial antisemitism did not arise out of nowhere; it built on and extended
the logic of classical cultural antisemitism, which Steiner did so much to
promote.
And that brings us to Percedol, defender of "spiritual science" and admirer
of fascism. In response to the very same passage by Bob that I quoted above,
Percedol has this to say:
)Just any regular Catholic in Italy would think that it is a tragic
)situation waiting for a Messiah that already came and still wait. And
)anyone would think that the best outcome would be to convert to
)Christianity. But today, thanks to the freedom of speech, these things
)cannot be said anymore...
This is unreconstructed antisemitism. In Percedol's worldview, "anyone would
think" that Jews have no excuse for continuing to exist. He even longs for
the good old days when it was perfectly acceptable to spout hateful ignorant
nonsense about Jews. Indeed Percedol is so steeped in the anthroposophist
doctrine of racial evolution that his own repugnant prejudices seem like
simple common sense to him. From his defense of the racist anthroposophist
Scaligero, to his attempted rehabilitation of fascism, and finally his
anxieties about Italian "national identity" and the annoying refusal of Jews
to just disappear and leave regular folks alone, Percedol offers a case
study in the moral and political character of contemporary anthroposophy. It
is not a pleasant sight.
Peter S.
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 18:58:45 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Re: Anti-Semitism in Steiner
Percedol:
)No, karma involves all humankind, not just two people at the time.
That just makes it even more complicated. Now we have not just eons of past,
present and future, but millions of other people who may be potentially
involved. It's paralyzing. What basis is there for action?
)You should always intervene.
On what basis? (This is where I am always told I just don't understand, but
nobody ever gets any further explaining it than this.) If it is possible to
change karma, and interfere in someone else's destiny, the original meaning
of karma, as something that *had* to happen, evaporates. If someone is
"supposed" to suffer some misfortune, because some kind of spiritual lesson
is involved, and I stop their misfortune, I've aborted their lesson. You can
then say it's great for *my* karma to help someone in misfortune, but then
this thing just goes round and round in increasingly logic-free circles.
)The knowledge of reincarnation and karma is the basis for real )morality
)and ethics.
That's totally absurd. No one in the world who doesn't believe in
reincarnation and karma has "real" morality or ethics? Obviously bullshit.
)But you have to understand it.
Yeah, so I've been told. Usually the end of the discussion, as it seems to
be here. Always "You don't understand," never any further explanation.
)Look at the Gospels: how many crimes were committed in that name. )Jesus
)was not responsible for those errors. Steiner is not responsible )if people
)do not understand.
Fine. I am not sure whether the fixation on defending Steiner is out of a
deep need to clear his name and keep believing in the guru (I really love it
when he's compared to Jesus), or just a deflection from the problems caused
by all these "misunderstandings." At any rate it has that effect.
Whether it is a huge misunderstanding, or actually the logical result of
these beliefs, this non-interference policy is the version that seems to
frequently be enacted in Waldorf schools.
Diana
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:21:59 -0800
From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
Subject: Happy B-Day to PLANS webmaster
Well, I guess we do B-Days in clumps around here. Today is Gary
Bonhiver's B-Day. Gary is PLANS web master - responsible for the new
face on our website.
Happy Birthday Gary!
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:52:06 -0500
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: RE: Antistaudenmeierism: Steiner's and Percedol's
)
)And that brings us to Percedol, defender of "spiritual science" and admirer
)of fascism. In response to the very same passage by Bob that I quoted above,
)Percedol has this to say:
)
))Just any regular Catholic in Italy would think that it is a tragic
))situation waiting for a Messiah that already came and still wait. And
))anyone would think that the best outcome would be to convert to
))Christianity. But today, thanks to the freedom of speech, these things
))cannot be said anymore...
)
)This is unreconstructed antisemitism. In Percedol's worldview, "anyone would
)think" that Jews have no excuse for continuing to exist. He even longs for
)the good old days when it was perfectly acceptable to spout hateful ignorant
)nonsense about Jews. Indeed Percedol is so steeped in the anthroposophist
)doctrine of racial evolution that his own repugnant prejudices seem like
)simple common sense to him. From his defense of the racist anthroposophist
)Scaligero, to his attempted rehabilitation of fascism, and finally his
)anxieties about Italian "national identity" and the annoying refusal of Jews
)to just disappear and leave regular folks alone, Percedol offers a case
)study in the moral and political character of contemporary anthroposophy. It
)is not a pleasant sight.
)
)Peter S.
)
P"""""""""""""""""""
First, I have never been an admirer of Italian fascism. I don't care
about it and I never cared it.
Second, I expressed a point of view that is natural for a catholic.
Independently from knowing any spiritual science these views are
quite consequential for any catholic. I don't need to read Steiner to
think that way, I just need to read the Gospels. The difference is
that the Church tries to convert, an esotericist does not care to
convert anyone.
For a catholic, not recognizing the Messiah is not an helpful step
towards salvation. Talk to a member of the Opus Dei and ask about it.
Also there were no good old days, but there was no 'political
correct' that is everything except correct.
Moreover I am not anxious about Italian identity, because I don't
care about it, but I simply talked about a social phenomenon, the
lack of national identity, that is a reality, not 'my' problem.
Scaligero was not a racist Anthroposophist and he never try to
rehabilitate fascism.
My personal view is that I don't refuse people because of religion,
and anyone can follow the religion he/she likes. I don't care.
What concerns me is your way of distorting things. Are all historians
like you? You don't seem at all to search for what really happens,
but just to select what is useful to demonstrate your thesis, no
matter what.
--
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:48:38 +0100
From: Peter Zegers (peter_zegers runbox.no)
Subject: Percedol's antisemitism
P"""""""""""""""""""
You wrote to Peter Staudenmaier: "What concerns me is your way of
distorting things. Are all historians like you?" All historians we
consulted on Massimo Scaligero were in complete agreement about his
important contribution to racism and antisemitism during the Fascist
dictatorship. You haven't given us any reason to doubt their assessment,
yet you insist once again that Scaligero was no racist and fascist. It
is more accurate to state that you ignore everything that doesn't fit
your preconceived notions about Scaligero (and Steiner). Your own words
describe very neatly your own position in this 'debate': "You don't seem
at all to search for what really happens, but just to select what is
useful to demonstrate your thesis, no matter what" (I keep in mind that
your view on what constitutes reality is probably very different from
mine).
I am wondering why you would advise people to ask someone from Opus Dei
to get an idea about the Catholic position on Judaism/Jews. Are they
more representative of 'real' Roman Catholicism than more moderate or
left-oriented Catholics? Should 'real Catholics' be intolerant toward
Jews?
Peter Zegers
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:54:31 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Spot the difference
) ) If
)) you want to understand how Waldorfers use the words Imagination,
)) Inspiration, Intuition-- and let us not forget the everpresent Spirit--
)) it is instructive to watch Leni Riefenstahl's film "Triumph of the Will."
)
)Saw the movie. It's available as a video. Any totalitarian regime knows
)those techniques.
Does anybody know the story of the missing last reel? I thought my
copy was defective, but the replacement was the same.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:51:54 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: -ism in Steiner
Bob D Jour, you wrote,
)Of course, the Anthros will respond by saying that Hitler closed
)down all of the Waldorf schools.
In point of fact, he didn't. Hitler never issued any order regarding
Waldorf schools. They were controversial in the Nazi movement; some
Nazis were for them, some against. The argument ended after Hess flew
to England and Hitler decided he'd had enough from his pet occultists.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 17:10:17 -0500
From: "Green Family" (sjgreen seidata.com)
Subject: RE: Happy B-Day to PLANS webmaster
Happy birthday, Gary! The Green Family
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:11:45 +0100
From: Sandra Schlick (sandra.schlick balcab.ch)
Subject: Re: Happy B-Day to PLANS webmaster
Happy Birthday Gary from me, Sandra
Debra Snell wrote:
) Well, I guess we do B-Days in clumps around here. Today is Gary
) Bonhiver's B-Day. Gary is PLANS web master - responsible for the new
) face on our website.
)
) Happy Birthday Gary!
)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 17:46:31 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Do Anthroposophists smile?
Sharon: What have we here...a picture of Steiner with his lips
ever-so-slightly turned up. (See picture in bottom row). There goes that
theory about Steiner not ever smiling in pictures. I particularly like
Steiner's rendition of himsel...I mean the Christ (in the center), a detail
of his enormous sculpture depicting Ahriman, Lucifer and the Christ entitled
"The Group". Edith Marion left the Order of the Golden Dawn in England and
moved to Dornach, Switzerland, to follow Steiner and help him with his
"spiritual art" projects. She worked on the first Goetheanum, which was
destroyed by fire but was replaced by a second building which remains the
world center and mystical temple of Anthroposophy.
) http://www.antipodes.co.nz/steiner
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 18:05:15 -0400
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
CC: Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodWinter.com)
Subject: Re: Happy B-Day to PLANS webmaster
Please know that I, too, am thinking of you and wishing you all the best,
Gary! Here's betting that you, Barbara and Emma have something wonderful
planned for this evening. Fill us in on the natal day festivities when you
have a chance, ok?
xox Lisa
) Well, I guess we do B-Days in clumps around here. Today is Gary
) Bonhiver's B-Day. Gary is PLANS web master - responsible for the new
) face on our website.
)
)
) Happy Birthday Gary!
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 18:29:15 -0600
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Percedol's antisemitism
Percedol assures us:
)First, I have never been an admirer of Italian fascism. I don't care )about
)it and I never cared it.
Then why did you feel compelled to stand up for the "positve" aspects of
fascism a week ago? And even if your claim that you "don't care about"
fascism were true, don't you think you ought to start caring about it?
)Second, I expressed a point of view that is natural for a catholic.
That's funny, I never held this point of view when I was a Catholic. None of
my Catholic family members hold this point of view, either. What exactly is
"natural" about the ugly views you expressed? Are you trying to say that all
Catholics are antisemites like you are?
)Talk to a member of the Opus Dei and ask about it.
Now there's a good reason for you to start caring about fascism, Percedol.
Do you know where Opus Dei came from? Do you know what its relationship to
classical fascism was? Do you think Opus Dei represents mainstream Catholic
opinion regarding antisemitism?
)Also there were no good old days, but there was no 'political correct'
) )that is everything except correct.
You think that opposition to antisemitism is merely a manifestation of
'political correctness'? Could you explain how you reached that conclusion?
)Scaligero was not a racist Anthroposophist and he never try to
) )rehabilitate fascism.
Your opinions about Scaligero are completely unfounded. No other person who
has examined Scaligero's actions and writings during the Fascist era
believes your apologetics. Your stubborn refusal to recognize this fact
suggests to me that you are not genuinely interested in learning anything
about Scaligero's past.
)What concerns me is your way of distorting things.
I haven't distorted anything. I have pointed out to you the many ways in
which your own beliefs are distorted, not to mention baseless and repugnant.
)Are all historians like you? You don't seem at all to search for what
) )really happens, but just to select what is useful to demonstrate your
) )thesis, no matter what.
All historians, myself included, do the very opposite of what you describe.
Since you just said yourself that you "don't care about" the historical
topics I study, your new-found interest in "what really happens" is
obviously insincere.
Peter S.
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 19:06:43 -0500
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: RE: Percedol's antizegerism
Peter Zegers (peter_zegers runbox.no) wrote:
)P"""""""""""""""""""
)
)You wrote to Peter Staudenmaier: "What concerns me is your way of
)distorting things. Are all historians like you?" All historians we
)consulted on Massimo Scaligero were in complete agreement about his
)important contribution to racism and antisemitism during the Fascist
)dictatorship. You haven't given us any reason to doubt their assessment,
)yet you insist once again that Scaligero was no racist and fascist. It
)is more accurate to state that you ignore everything that doesn't fit
)your preconceived notions about Scaligero (and Steiner). Your own words
)describe very neatly your own position in this 'debate': "You don't seem
)at all to search for what really happens, but just to select what is
)useful to demonstrate your thesis, no matter what" (I keep in mind that
)your view on what constitutes reality is probably very different from
)mine).
)
)I am wondering why you would advise people to ask someone from Opus Dei
)to get an idea about the Catholic position on Judaism/Jews. Are they
)more representative of 'real' Roman Catholicism than more moderate or
)left-oriented Catholics?
Should 'real Catholics' be intolerant toward
)Jews?
P""""""""""""""""
No, it was just to see who would have come out with a question like
that. You see, if one is a catholic should notat all be intolerant.
no matter if its right or left catholic. There should be respect for
any views. I respect all views, and I try to learn about it. I have
friends following the major religions and I think it makes things
more interesting.
And you haven't shown articles, not just titles, to prove your views.
Take Germinario's book: 'race of blood, race of the spirit'. The
title may seem racist. And most likely those Italian historians
barely read a few lines of those articles.
Percedol
--
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 20:51:13 -0400
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: the KKK and personality "types"
Hi, everyone!
I am in the process of reading a fascinating non-fiction book called "Them:
Adentures with Extremists," by Jon Ronson.
The book's "blurb" describes it this way: "Is there really, as the
extremists clamin, a secret room from which a tiny elite secretly rule the
world? And if so, can it be found? This book is a journey into the heart of
darkness involving twelve-foot lizard-men, PR-savvy Ku Klux Klansmen,
Hollywood limousines, the story of Ruby Ridge, Noam Chomsky, a harem of
kidnapped sex slaves and Nicolae Ceausescu's shoes. While Jon Ronson
attempts to locate the secret room he is chased by men in dark glasses,
unmasked as a Jew in the middle of a Jihad training camp, and witnesses CEOs
and leading politicians undertake a bizarre pagan own ritual in the forests
of Northern California. He learns some alarming things about the looking
glass world of them and us."
Here's the part that prompted me to post this info to *this* list. In
Chapter 7 ("The Klansman Who Won't Use The N-Word"), author Ronson attends
the KKK National Congress and learns that the event is to feature something
that the Grand Wizard's daughter-in-law describes as a "Personality Skills
Workshop." Using a series of exercises, the attending Klanspeople would
learn which of the (and I am quoting the Klanswoman here) "four types of
personality" they were:
* sanguines (described as "popular")
* cholerics (described as "powerful")
* melancholics (described as "perfect")
* phlegmatics (described as "peaceful")
The Grand Wizard's daughter-in-law goes on to talk about the importance of
identifying these "types" so that the KKK leadership can make sure
"everyone's working together."
And though she comments several times that "all personality types are good"
, she concedes that "sanguines" make the "best leaders."
This interested me for two reasons. One, I know of very few groups other
than Waldorf teachers/Anthroposophists who use the
"sanguine/choleric/melancholic/phlegmatic" categorization of people's
personality types. Two, the comments made by the GW's d-i-l about how all
types are great, but then implying that some types (sanguine) *are* better
than others also reminded me very much of what I have heard Waldorf teachers
say when discussing the personality types of the children in their classes.
The teachers would reassure those of us whose children (we were told) were
melancholic or phlegmatic that "we need all kinds of people in the world,"
but that would almost inevitably be followed by comments on how the
"sanguine ones" were so lively, so smart, so attentive, so energetic -- such
*leaders.*
It seems that the KKK and the anthros share more than just a belief in the
superiority of the Aryan race ... they also share a method of categorizing
personalities.
Lisa
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 21:31:57 -0400
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: The KKK and personality "types"
Hi, everyone!
I am in the process of reading a fascinating non-fiction book called "Them:
Adentures with Extremists," by Jon Ronson.
The book's "blurb" describes it this way: "Is there really, as the
extremists clamin, a secret room from which a tiny elite secretly rule the
world? And if so, can it be found? This book is a journey into the heart of
darkness involving twelve-foot lizard-men, PR-savvy Ku Klux Klansmen,
Hollywood limousines, the story of Ruby Ridge, Noam Chomsky, a harem of
kidnapped sex slaves and Nicolae Ceausescu's shoes. While Jon Ronson
attempts to locate the secret room he is chased by men in dark glasses,
unmasked as a Jew in the middle of a Jihad training camp, and witnesses CEOs
and leading politicians undertake a bizarre pagan own ritual in the forests
of Northern California. He learns some alarming things about the looking
glass world of them and us."
Here's the part that prompted me to post this info to *this* list. In
Chapter 7 ("The Klansman Who Won't Use The N-Word"), author Ronson attends
the KKK National Congress and learns that the event is to feature something
that the Grand Wizard's daughter-in-law describes as a "Personality Skills
Workshop." Using a series of exercises, the attending Klanspeople would
learn which of the (and I am quoting the Klanswoman here) "four types of
personality" they were:
* sanguines (described as "popular")
* cholerics (described as "powerful")
* melancholics (described as "perfect")
* phlegmatics (described as "peaceful")
The Grand Wizard's daughter-in-law goes on to talk about the importance of
identifying these "types" so that the KKK leadership can make sure
"everyone's working together."
And though she comments several times that "all personality types are good"
, she concedes that "sanguines" make the "best leaders."
This interested me for two reasons. One, I know of very few groups other
than Waldorf teachers/Anthroposophists who use the
"sanguine/choleric/melancholic/phlegmatic" categorization of people's
personality types. Two, the comments made by the GW's d-i-l about how all
types are great, but then implying that some types (sanguine) *are* better
than others also reminded me very much of what I have heard Waldorf teachers
say when discussing the personality types of the children in their classes.
The teachers would reassure those of us whose children (we were told) were
melancholic or phlegmatic that "we need all kinds of people in the world,"
but that would almost inevitably be followed by comments on how the
"sanguine ones" were so lively, so smart, so attentive, so energetic -- such
*leaders.*
It seems that the KKK and the anthros share more than just a belief in the
superiority of the Aryan race ... they also share a method of categorizing
personalities.
Lisa
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 19:37:43 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Admin: ad hominem warning [Re: Percedol's antisemitism]
Peter Staudenmaier, you wrote to Percedol,
)Are you trying to say that all Catholics are antisemites like you are?
Please direct your comments to the arguments presented by our
subscribers, not at the subscribers themselves. You may say that a
statement sounds anti-Semitic to you, but not that the writer is an
anti-Semite.
-Dan Dugan
Moderator
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 05:18:44 +0100
From: Sandra Schlick (sandra.schlick balcab.ch)
Subject: Re: -ism in Steiner
Hi Dan
How did Hitler act when he "had enough" about them? How did Hitler treat
the Waldorf Schools of mentally disabled? Do you know something about
that?
Sandra
Dan Dugan wrote:
) Bob D Jour, you wrote,
)
) )Of course, the Anthros will respond by saying that Hitler closed
) )down all of the Waldorf schools.
)
) In point of fact, he didn't. Hitler never issued any order regarding
) Waldorf schools. They were controversial in the Nazi movement; some
) Nazis were for them, some against. The argument ended after Hess flew
) to England and Hitler decided he'd had enough from his pet occultists.
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 06:39:24 +0000
From: (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: Re: Anti-kiwitism in Steiner
Diana Winters wrote:
)
)
) Percedol:
)
) )No, karma involves all humankind, not just two people at the time.
)
) That just makes it even more complicated. Now we have not just eons of
) past,
) present and future, but millions of other people who may be potentially
) involved. It's paralyzing. What basis is there for action?
)
) )You should always intervene.
)
) On what basis? (This is where I am always told I just don't understand,
) but
) nobody ever gets any further explaining it than this.) If it is possible
) to
) change karma, and interfere in someone else's destiny, the original
) meaning
) of karma, as something that *had* to happen, evaporates. If someone is
) "supposed" to suffer some misfortune, because some kind of spiritual
) lesson
) is involved, and I stop their misfortune, I've aborted their lesson. You
) can
) then say it's great for *my* karma to help someone in misfortune, but
) then
) this thing just goes round and round in increasingly logic-free circles.
)
P^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"It would be a grave error, i.e. a deformation of the doctrine of karma,
to show no interest in the difficulties of others and to renounce to
help them, thinking that each one is related to its own karmic
difficulties and being alone in the process of going through them: since
he/she himself/herself caused them, it would make no sense to offer our
help, because he/she alone would have the possibility to solve them. If
things were like this the mission of the Logos on the Earth would be
useless. But things are not like this: the individual karma is
objectively related to the general human karma (?). Furthermore, the
inner principle (?) that is able to realize the independence from karma,
produces (?) the beginning of a new relationship with the others. The
activity that (?) is able to free the original element of the soul,
bears the freeing connection with the soul of others. Whereas it does
not move in this direction and is not working for the others, according
to its own transcendent element, it paralyzes itself. (?) Who is able to
take upon himself the karma of others, becomes free from karma."
)
) )The knowledge of reincarnation and karma is the basis for real )morality
) )
) )and ethics.
)
) That's totally absurd. No one in the world who doesn't believe in
) reincarnation and karma has "real" morality or ethics? Obviously
) bullshit.
P^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"Only the moral man can be social. When he/she knows that there is no
thought or feeling, that does not produce its karmic consequences, (?)
he/she realizes the responsibility of every single inner activity.
He/she knows that this activity decides the form of reality: he/she
becomes (?) the corrector of him/herself: (he/she) will know that every
wrong thought, an hateful thought, moves and returns to him/her to be
known and solved: (if it's) not known, (if it's) not solved, it works
against him/her as an obstacle, about which he /she instinctively tends
to give the fault to others: he/she stops being played by instincts,
he/she recognizes their mechanism. He/she knows that has to start to
consider his/her own thoughts and feelings as working entities, nor more
nor less than the physical ones: there is no thought or feeling that,
moving from him/her, does not produce something which final product is
his/her destiny. Responsibility within him/her becomes morality: the
morality of a free (wo)man, since is founded upon knowledge. (?) Such a
(wo)man not only cannot be used by ideological influences, but start
being a co-operator to free other men: the true social action."
) Whether it is a huge misunderstanding, or actually the logical result of
)
) these beliefs, this non-interference policy is the version that seems to
)
) frequently be enacted in Waldorf schools.
) Diana
P^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Interesting!
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:42:55 -0800
From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
Subject: Re: -ism in Steiner
On Friday, March 22, 2002, at 12:16 AM, Schlick wrote:
) Hi Debra
) In europe, nothing the like is happening that I know of. Do you know?
) Sandra
Debra:
No, I don't know anything about European laws.
)) Debra:
))
)) Currently there are three lawsuits against Waldorf schools in the USA.
)) PLANS lawsuit (in appeals) alleging church-state issues; another
)) lawsuit
)) regarding a public funded Waldorf school who must answer to the
)) allegation of violation of special education laws (Steiner's version of
)) karma is apparently more important than state laws), and now a new
)) lawsuit alleging rascist hiring practices against a private Waldorf
)) school filed on March 7, 2002.(PLANS has been asked to be the publicist
)) on this oner. We are awaiting more information.)
))
)) The under sided rocks of Anthroposophy are being exposed to the light
)) of
)) day, at long last. Where will they run to hide?
))
)
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 07:05:09 +0000
From: (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: Percedol's antifrivolism
Peter Staudenmaier wrote:
) Percedol assures us:
)
) )First, I have never been an admirer of Italian fascism. I don't care
) ))about
) )it and I never cared it.
)
) Then why did you feel compelled to stand up for the "positve" aspects of
)
) fascism a week ago? And even if your claim that you "don't care about"
) fascism were true, don't you think you ought to start caring about it?
P#################
I was thinking to Ma and Pa that made me, although they lived during
those times...
And now I am learning something by reading the 'corriere della sera".
)
) )Second, I expressed a point of view that is natural for a catholic.
)
) That's funny, I never held this point of view when I was a Catholic.
) None of
) my Catholic family members hold this point of view, either. What exactly
) is
) "natural" about the ugly views you expressed? Are you trying to say that
) all
) Catholics are antisemites like you are?
P#######################
Ouch! No, I am not anti-semite.
)
) )Talk to a member of the Opus Dei and ask about it.
)
) Now there's a good reason for you to start caring about fascism,
) Percedol.
) Do you know where Opus Dei came from? Do you know what its relationship
) to
) classical fascism was? Do you think Opus Dei represents mainstream
) Catholic
) opinion regarding antisemitism?
P###################
So, you took it seriuosly?
)
) )Also there were no good old days, but there was no 'political correct'
) ) )that is everything except correct.
)
) You think that opposition to antisemitism is merely a manifestation of
) 'political correctness'? Could you explain how you reached that
) conclusion?
P########################
No, political correctness should be an expression of sensibility. Not
hurting the feelings of others.
)
) )Scaligero was not a racist Anthroposophist and he never try to
) ) )rehabilitate fascism.
)
) Your opinions about Scaligero are completely unfounded. No other person
) who
) has examined Scaligero's actions and writings during the Fascist era
) believes your apologetics.
P################
But several of the people who knew him at that time are still alive and
they say enough for me about him during that time.
Your stubborn refusal to recognize this fact
) suggests to me that you are not genuinely interested in learning
) anything
) about Scaligero's past.
P###################
Please select which incarnation from his past you are interested in!
)
) )What concerns me is your way of distorting things.
)
) I haven't distorted anything. I have pointed out to you the many ways in
)
) which your own beliefs are distorted, not to mention baseless and
) repugnant.
P###############
Straight to the point! No good metaphors?
)
) )Are all historians like you? You don't seem at all to search for what
) ) )really happens, but just to select what is useful to demonstrate your
) ) )thesis, no matter what.
)
) All historians, myself included, do the very opposite of what you
) describe.
) Since you just said yourself that you "don't care about" the historical
) topics I study, your new-found interest in "what really happens" is
) obviously insincere.
)
) Peter S.
)
P##############
How many pages written by Scaligero have you ever read?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:41:25 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: -ism in Steiner
Sandra, you wrote,
)How did Hitler act when he "had enough" about them?
He purged a lot of his staff and advisors after Hess flew to England.
Hess, as deputy fuhrer, was the highest-ranking Nazi who supported
Waldorf.
)How did Hitler treat
)the Waldorf Schools of mentally disabled? Do you know something about
)that?
I don't believe there were any in Germany or Nazi-occupied countries
at that time. The Camphill movement started in Scotland around 1940.
-Dan
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 675
-- Topica Digest --
RE: Re: Anti-kiwitism in Steiner
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Quote from GA 353
By koala noos.fr
Re: Spot the difference
By koala noos.fr
Re: Do Anthroposophists smile?
By koala noos.fr
Re: -ism in Steiner
By koala noos.fr
Re: -ism in Steiner
By koala noos.fr
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:34:11 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: RE: Re: Anti-kiwitism in Steiner
Percedol, please give bibliographic information with your quotations.
Thanks, Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:17:25 +0100
From: (koala noos.fr)
Subject: Re: Quote from GA 353
)le 21/03/02 5:19, Peter Staudenmaier ? pstaud hotmail.com a ?crit?:
) (snip)
) According to the 2002 catalog of the Anthroposophic Press, the English
) translation of this book is published under the title From Beetroot to
) Buddhism. But the English version, according to the catalog, only contains
) 16 chapters, not 17 as in the original. I have a sneaking suspicion that the
) chapter they left out is the one where Steiner addresses the "historical
) mission of the Jewish people", which is the chapter Sandra and Peter Z were
) discussing. Does anybody have a copy of From Beetroot to Buddhism by any
) chance? If so, please see whether chapter 11 is a lecture from May 8, 1924,
) or whether the book skips from the May 5 lecture to the May 10 lecture.
I guess there is only one Peter Staudenmaier in the world! How lucky we are
to have you!
)
) (snip)
) The final sentences of Steiner's reply to this question read: "Today all
) aspects of the Jews are dominated by racial qualities. Above all they marry
) among themselves.
How many catholics marry among themselves?
How many muslims marry among themselves?
How many french marry among themselves?
How many americans marry among themselves?
How many social categories marry among themselves?
How many cultures marry among themselves?
ad libitum...
koala.
) (snip)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:23:09 +0100
From: (koala noos.fr)
Subject: Re: Spot the difference
)le 21/03/02 14:14, Alice K ? alice.javanet rcn.com a ?crit?:
)) on 3/20/02 4:06 PM, Bob D Jour at bdjour juno.com wrote:
)) snips(
)) the Nazis would repeat the same catchphrases over and over
)) again, so too do the Waldorfers use words like Inspiration, etc. not to
)) convey meaning, but as mantras. The words are devoid of any real
)) meaning, but if repeated long enough they tend to induce hypnosis. Once,
)) at one of the weekly 4-hour-long Conference meetings, I heard one teacher
)) and ardent Anthro use the word Imagination over 50 times in 5 minutes in
)) a discussion about the correct (read Steiner's) way of teaching
)) equilateral triangles. As I understand it, equilateral triangles are all
)) pretty much the same, but somehow a Steiner equilateral triangle is
)) inspirational because it is drawn with a salmon colored pencil.
))
)) Most of the anthro and Steiner vocabulary consists of words designed to
)) obfuscate meaning. If you ask them to define their terms their comeback
)) is to say that you can't understand them until your soul has been opened
)) to Anthroposophy. This is hogwash. Any rational person can understand
)) correctly the beliefs of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism without
)) being a member of any of those religions. The Anthros want people to be
)) unaware of their beliefs until they have been fully brainwashed into the
)) cult.
))
)) Keep up the good work!
)) bdjour
)
) Hi Bob,
) Thank you for your courage in coming forward with your perspective. It is so
) difficult to untangle the complex web of spiritual,emotional and mental
) manipulation of waldorf education.. any clarity about how this is achieved
) for those of us still effected is like a beacon of light. (to counteract
) metaphor with metaphor)
) I appreciate you willing to put yourself at risk. Please do all you can to
) protect your identity to avoid retribution. For those of us who have
) suffered within the system, it is a terrible thing to experience.
) sincerely,
) Alice
)
I'd like to thank you as well for your courage in coming forward. Your
testimony is fully enriching.
koala.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:35:10 +0100
From: (koala noos.fr)
Subject: Re: Do Anthroposophists smile?
)le 21/03/02 21:55, Lisa Ercolano ? momof2gals mindspring.com a ?crit?:
)))) Anoush Gesarentz (fishnet wish.net) wrote:
))
))percedol you wrote:
)))) Has anyone else noticed that photos of Anthroposophists are almost always
)))) grim (especially Steiner)?
))
)) Maybe because of being aware of how much hate there would have been against
)) the spiritual science., or because of how materialistic the world is
)) becoming, or because there is so much pain in the world, or because...
))
)) Percedol
)
)
) .. or maybe because they have a ultra-negative view of almost everything in
) the modern world and take themselves far, far too seriously. Or maybe they
) are worried that their heads will turn into wolves or dragons or somesuch
) every other minute, as Steiner said that human heads are wont to do without
) intervention by the body's trunk area.
) Lisa
)
Or maybe they had just read Bruno Bettelheim 's "psychoanalysis of the fairy
tales", and were just trying to assess what new delusion they could come up
with, in order to justify the anthro-toys Bettelheim had just broken...
koala.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 12:38:17 +0100
From: (koala noos.fr)
Subject: Re: -ism in Steiner
)le 21/03/02 23:37, Percedol netscape.net ? Percedol netscape.net a ?crit?:
)) Bob D Jour (bdjour juno.com) wrote:
)
)
)) This is a sick pseudo-religion that eschews personal responsibility and
)) any form of morality. It is fascism hiding behind a facade of New Age
)) mysticism. Steiner's beliefs are dangerous, they are amoral, and they
)) are a threat to the well-being of the children who are being
)) indoctrinated at Waldorf schools worldwide.
))
)) bdjour
)
) P""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
) If it's not understood and is therefore applied in very strange ways, not if
) one understands it.
What is not understood? All Steiner's theories about how to raise children
were proven wrong or invalidated by all psychologists?
What in hell is there in anthroposophy to understand?
If Steiner is proven wrong according to his writings about the teaching of
children (representing many books already) that is supposed to take into
account the organisation of the Spiritual, then it is because the idea of
the Spiritual is just the idea Steiner makes out of it, or the projection of
Steiner's psych? upon the Spiritual, or rather a Steiner-cast Spiritual.
"Understanding it" to use your own words, would mean understanding Steiner
as an individual, not necessarily understanding his works or understanding
the Spiritual as devised by him, since it is falsely devised when applied to
the psychology of children as to their education, otherwise it would work.
I can understand a thief or a killer as an individual, what led him to
commit such actions, I don't have to do the same in order to say that I
understand him.
You can understand nazism (or a nazi), how it functions, how it is devised,
its symbolism, the fascination people had with it, but that will never make
you necessarily espouse their ideas. Understanding is not necessarily
approving.
You have to understand that if there is a Spiritual, it is the Spiritual
that devised Steiner and all living things on this earth, not the contrary.
You make the same truisms like Joel. According to what you say it is the
same kind of syllogism:
* it can only be understood even if there is nothing to understand,
* and if I say there is nothing to understand, it is because I haven't
understood
In Physics, nobody will tell you that if a theory is wrong, it is because
you haven't understood. Simply because it doesn't work or doesn't resist to
the experiment that was carried out to verify it.
It may sound strange but it is the same in philosophy. There are many cases
where the philosopher invalidate another philosopher's theory by trying to
verify it with dialectic. Plato did that so often and very well. That is
also what we do on this list.
The dead-end statement, "it is because you haven't understood" with no
further argumentations, is no dialectics.
I said that many times, take any ludicrous statement that one will prove
wrong very logically, then if the opposing party merely tells you it is
because you haven't understood, then the debate is hopeless.
Sorry to have bothered the list again with the same ideas.
koala.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 12:44:08 +0100
From: (koala noos.fr)
Subject: Re: -ism in Steiner
)le 22/03/02 7:01, Bob D Jour ? bdjour juno.com a ?crit?:
) Hi
)
) Oh, now I see. Bullying is punishment for something that someone might
) do in the future. So following this logic why don't we put everyone in
) prison because in a future life they might commit a felony? This just
) points out the true malevolence of Steiner's beliefs. If they are
) followed to their logical conclusion they result in pure unadulterated
) evil. Yes, I will admit that Steiner never personally killed a Jew. But
) his philosophy is part of the intellectual milieu that allowed the Nazis
) to come to power and supplies the Nazi apologists with their strongest
) arguments.
I agree with that, but can Peter Staudenmaier, or Peter Z. tell us which
conclusions one of them drew after reading "Black sun" by Goodrick Clarke
(if my memory is good, Peter S. seemed to differ on this very argument
according to the recent reading of that book - I bought it recently, along
with "le matin des magiciens" which was available as a paperback printing,
but hadn't the time so far to read them).
koala.
) There is no other way around it. Steiner's position is that
) the victim deserves what he gets. The Waldorf and Anthro publications
) might show photos of multiracial groups holding hands and singing "It's a
) Small World," but that is just eyewash. The belief system that motivates
) Waldorf pedagogy and Anthroposophy is racist, anti-humanistic, and
) ultimately produces evil. Yes, EVIL.
)
) bdjour
)
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 676
-- Topica Digest --
Re: -ism in Steiner
By koala noos.fr
Re: Anti-Semitism in Steiner
By koala noos.fr
Re: The KKK and personality "types"
By mysplum earthlink.net
Rudolf Steiner and the Nazis shared the same religion
By fishnet wish.net
Re: Percedol's antisemitism
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: Percedol's frivolous approach to history
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: Happy B-Day to PLANS webmaster
By Gary GoodWinter.com
Re: Do Anthroposophists smile?
By Gary GoodWinter.com
RE: Re: Anti-kiwitism in Steiner
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: -ism in Steiner
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: -ism in Steiner
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: Anti-Semitism in Steiner
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: Percedol's frivolous approach to history
By Percedol netscape.net
Re: Do Anthroposophists smile?
By snell gv.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 13:15:57 +0100
From: (koala noos.fr)
Subject: Re: -ism in Steiner
)le 22/03/02 7:52, Percedol netscape.net ? Percedol netscape.net a ?crit?:
)
)) Bob D Jour wrote:
)) Hi
))
)) Oh, now I see. Bullying is punishment for something that someone might
)) do in the future. So following this logic why don't we put everyone in
)) prison because in a future life they might commit a felony? This just
)) points out the true malevolence of Steiner's beliefs. If they are
)) followed to their logical conclusion they result in pure unadulterated
)) evil. Yes, I will admit that Steiner never personally killed a Jew.
)) But
)) his philosophy is part of the intellectual milieu that allowed the Nazis
)) to come to power and supplies the Nazi apologists with their strongest
)) arguments. There is no other way around it. Steiner's position is that
)) the victim deserves what he gets. The Waldorf and Anthro publications
)) might show photos of multiracial groups holding hands and singing "It's
)) a
)) Small World," but that is just eyewash. The belief system that
)) motivates
)) Waldorf pedagogy and Anthroposophy is racist, anti-humanistic, and
)) ultimately produces evil. Yes, EVIL.
))
)) bdjour
))
)
) P"""""""""""""""""""""""
) Who speaks of punishment about future actions? Whatever happens on the
) physical plane is karma. Karma may be related to the past or the future.
) Following your subtle argumentation one would think that you believe
) anthroposophist would say that those who killed Joan of Arc, Jacques
) Molay, Giordano Bruno, Socrates, etc. were right and justified. You are
) wrong! But in many cases a murder is the result of actions committed in
) a previous life. But you never know.
You said it, you never know. So why people try to speak of something they
never knew or will never know or that they never know, and try to adapt
their behavior according to something they never know?
I remember an article written in an esoteric magazine about the curse of the
Templars and why some other generations of templars had to understand it in
order to avenge their ancesters by accomplising murders according to it (or
its karmic debt I suppose). Any action can be justified by any crackpot
theories.
It gives me a cold back. Chilling.
) And even if this is the case, one
) has to work to change things.
) Have you seen the movie 'dead again' by Kenneth Branagh?
) (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0101669)
Yes.
Have you seen "groundhog's day"?
) Things can be changed. The solution is forgiveness. That stops the
) karmic round.
I can forgive the nazis once they are beaten, not before. I can forgive
totalitarian regimes once they are toppled not before...
And to stop the Waldorf schools, what should we do in order to stop their
karmic round? Forgive them will make them disappear?
koala.
)You don't wait and do nothing letting things happen. If
) one does that, didn't understand.
)
) Percedol
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 13:31:40 +0100
From: (koala noos.fr)
Subject: Re: Anti-Semitism in Steiner
)le 22/03/02 18:02, Percedol netscape.net ? Percedol netscape.net a ?crit?:
) The knowledge of reincarnation and karma is the basis for real morality and
) ethics. But you have to understand it. Look at the Gospels: how many crimes
) were committed in that name. Jesus was not responsible for those errors.
) Steiner is not responsible if people do not understand.
L.Ron Hubbard is not responsible as well I suppose, if people don't
understand... Will he have to be forgiven right now according to karmic
laws?
Percedol, Steiner is not a prophet nor a Master of any kind. You compare
things that are not comparable.
In your off-list discussion, you even say that Saliguero was a Master!!!
To which extremes will you go next time? Berlusconi is a Master? Mussolini
is a Master? But perhaps they were not understood?
) Understanding is a
) problem in and out of the Society or the Movement. Not just for
those out. And
) those who are in and did not understand are responsible. No surprise that
) eventually someone noticed that something may be wrong.
Same statements about understanding, same hopeless logic (see my other
post), or rather same absence of logic.
koala.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 09:19:15 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: The KKK and personality "types"
Lisa:
)
) This interested me for two reasons. One, I know of very few groups other
) than Waldorf teachers/Anthroposophists who use the
) "sanguine/choleric/melancholic/phlegmatic" categorization of people's
) personality types.
Sharon: Just stumbled across this the other day from Francis Yates' book on
The Occult Philosophy In The Elizabethan Age, which I thought you might be
interested in....
"According to the Galenic psychology, dominant through the Middle Ages, the
four humours or temperaments into which all men could be classified were the
sanguine, the choleric, the phlegmatic, and the melancholic. Sanguine people
were active, hopeful, successful, outward looking; they made good rulers and
men of affairs. Choleric people were irritable, inclined to fighting.
Plegmatic people were tranquil, somewhat lethargic. Melancholy people were
sad, poor, unsuccessful, condemned to the most servile and despised
occupations. The theory locked man's psychology into the cosmos, for the
four humours correspond to four elements and four planets, as follows:
Sanguine-Air-Jupiter
Choleric-Fire-Mars
Phlegmatic-Water-Moon
Meloncholy-Earth-Saturn
The theory was bound up with astrology. If Saturn dominated in a horoscope,
the person concerned would be inclined to melancholy; if Jupiter, the
outlook would be more hopeful, and so on.
The most unfortunate and the most hateful of all the four humours was
Saturn-Meloncholy. The melancholic was dark in complexion, with black hair
and a black face - the facies nigra or livid hue induced by the black bile
of the melancholy complexion. His typical physical pose, expressive of his
sadness and depression, was to rest his head on his hand. Even his 'gifts'
or characteristic occupations, were not attractive. He was good at
measuring, numbering, counting - at measuring land and counting money - but
what low and earthly occupations were these compared with the splendid gifts
of the sanguine Jupiter man, or the grace and loveliness of those born under
Venus!"
(50-51 Francis Yates, The Occult Philosophy In The Elizabethan Age,
Routledge & Kegan Paul, London, Boston, Henly 1979).
Sharon: Then in the Renaissance, there was a change in the way melancholics
were perceived, which was brought about by a pseudo-Aristotlian text, the
Problemata physica. This treatise discussed melancholy as a humour of great
men and heroes. To be melancholic became the sign of genius which cultivated
the highest kind of learning bringing man closest to the divine. All sorts
of Rennaissance magicians published work on the 4 humours, from Durer to
Agrippa. Here are some words from Agrippa 1510, whose work Steiner was very
familiar with...read on...talk about Steiner's continuity with the past!
When critics call Waldorf a medieval school, they kid not- (BTW, demon did
not mean "evil being" in those days).
Agrippa: "Moreover, this humour melancholicus has such power that they say
it attracts certain demons into our bodies, through whose presence and
activity men fall into ecstacies and pronounce many wonderful things...This
occurs in three different forms corresponding to the threefold capacity of
our soul, namely the imagination, the rational, and the mental. For when set
free by the humor melancholicus, the soul is fully concentrated in the
imagination, and it immediately becomes a habitation for the lower demons,
from whom it often receives wonderful instruction in the manual arts; thus
we see a quite unskilled man suddenly become a painter...if the demons of
this species reveal the future to us, they show us matters related to
natural catastrophes and disasters...But when the soul is fully concentrated
in the reason, it becomes the home of the middle demons; thereby it attains
knowledge of natural and human things; thus we see a man suddenly become a
philosopher...and of future events they show us what concerns the overthrow
oof kingdoms and the return of epochs...But when the soul soars completely
to the intellect it becomes the home of the higher demons, from whom it
learns the secrets of divine matters, as for instance the law of God, the
angelic hierarchy, and that which pertains to the knowledge of eternal
things and the soul's salvation; of future events they show us for instance
approaching prodigies, wonders, a prophet to come, or the emergence of a new
religion, just as Sybil prophesied Jesus Christ long before he appeared"
(53).
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 15:14:33 +0100
From: Ann (fishnet wish.net)
Subject: Rudolf Steiner and the Nazis shared the same religion
--=====================_4279873==_
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--=====================_4279873==_.REL
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Seeing the images below, i am realizing that many Nazis were subscribers to
Rudolf Steiner's ideology.
Hitler's religion.JPG
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 10:18:33 -0600
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Percedol's antisemitism
)Please direct your comments to the arguments presented by our
)subscribers, not at the subscribers themselves. You may say that a
)statement sounds anti-Semitic to you, but not that the writer is an
)anti-Semite.
Sorry, I formulated my question poorly. I should have said something along
the lines of "Do you think all Catholics share your antisemitic views?" I
was trying to ask Percedol whether he is imputing his own wishes (for a mass
conversion of Jews to Christianity) to Catholics as a whole. It seems to me
that by projecting his beliefs onto the vast majority of Italians, Percedol
is trying to absolve himself of responisbility for justifying those beliefs.
(To avoid misunderstanding, I am certainly not denying that some Catholics,
and some Italians, are beholden to antisemitic prejudices quite similar to
Percedol's own.)
The reason Percedol's views are antisemitic is not just that he wants there
to be no more Jews in the world, but that he makes this absurd demand only
of Jews. Percedol does not expect all Hindus to convert to Buddhism, or all
Catholics to convert to Lutheranism, although these demands would be just as
"logical" as the one he places on contemporary Jews. Like his teacher
Steiner, Percedol sees Jews as a cosmic anachronism, too stubborn and blind
to realize that racial-spiritual evolution has left them behind.
Peter S.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:02:51 -0600
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Percedol's frivolous approach to history
Percedol writes:
)I was thinking to Ma and Pa that made me, although they lived during
)those times...
I didn't ask about your parents, I asked about you. Why are you utterly
indifferent toward fascism? Don't you think it played a rather important
role in Italy's recent history? Don't you think it continues to have a
powerful influence within Italian politics? Who do you think makes up the
current governing coalition in Italy? Did you somehow miss the fact that
Berlusconi's junior partner, the National Alliance, is the heir to
Mussolini's Fascist party? Are you unaware that the current Deputy Prime
Minister, Gianfranco Fini, describes himself as a "post-fascist"? And more
to the point, how can you pretend that you "don't care about" fascism while
simultaneously praising its "positive" sides?
)And now I am learning something by reading the 'corriere della sera".
I suppose that's a start, but you'll need to go beyond reading the newspaper
if you want to learn something about history.
)Ouch! No, I am not anti-semite.
Then why do you promote antisemitic views?
)So, you took it seriuosly?
Took what seriously? Are you sure that *you* are taking this seriously,
Percedol?
)No, political correctness should be an expression of sensibility. Not
)hurting the feelings of others.
I am not concerned that you might hurt somebody's feelings. That is an
obvious trivialization of fascism and antisemitism.
)But several of the people who knew him at that time are still alive and
)they say enough for me about him during that time.
That's why you're having trouble making sense of history, Percedol. You
believe people who are obviously lying and who have self-evident personal
reasons to distort the truth. Do you know how many elderly Germans there are
who were active Nazis in their youth and who now deny that their late
comrades, and even the top Nazi leadership, were racists and antisemites?
Would their patently false testimony be "enough for you" to decide that
Hitler and Himmler were really just decent fellows after all? Get a clue:
Scaligero was a very active fascist who vigorously promoted racism in a very
public way right up until the fall of Mussolini. There is no dispute about
this among historians of Italian fascism. The only people who dispute it are
Scaligero's old friends. Doesn't that tell you something?
)Please select which incarnation from his past you are interested in!
I think you need to figure out just what it is that you are interested in
about Scaligero, since historical accuracy doesn't seem to count for much
with you.
)Straight to the point! No good metaphors?
I try to avoid metaphors when talking with people like you.
)How many pages written by Scaligero have you ever read?
Probably 200 or so. Why would this make a difference? I've never read a
single page written by Roberto Farinacci, for example, yet I know perfectly
well that he was the foremost antisemite in Mussolini's regime. Why are you
incapable of learning the simplest biographical facts about your hero
Scaligero? You're in Italy, right? And you seem to know people who have
access to Scaligero's earlier publications. How come you haven't taken even
a brief look into the matter? I'm thousands of miles away from Italy, I
don't even read much Italian, and without trying particularly hard I've come
across nearly a dozen thoroughly researched historical studies of Italian
Fascism that explain exactly what Scaligero was up to in the 1930's and
1940's. These historians have read Scaligero's articles from the period,
despite your preposterous claim to the contrary, and they quote those very
articles, sometimes at length. Yet somehow all of this is not "enough for
you" to re-examine your beliefs. That is indeed an extremely frivolous
approach to history.
Peter S.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 23:15:57 -0500
From: Gary Bonhiver (gary goodwinter.com)
Subject: Re: Happy B-Day to PLANS webmaster
on 3/22/02 2:21 PM, Debra Snell at snell gv.net wrote:
) Well, I guess we do B-Days in clumps around here. Today is Gary
) Bonhiver's B-Day. Gary is PLANS web master - responsible for the new
) face on our website.
)
)
) Happy Birthday Gary!
Thank you all for your kind wishes! Had a great day, and fewer candles to
blow out than Dan's! ("only" 46 vs Dan's 59). Dan, I had no idea you were
THAT old! ;-)
Best regards to all, even the Anthropods who have entertained us over the
years: Sune, Tarjei, Joel, Jeff, Harvey (earlyfire), Robert, Robin, Neil,
Charlie, Chand, David, and Detlef! You too, Dottie!
...Gary
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 00:30:04 -0500
From: Gary Bonhiver (gary goodwinter.com)
Subject: Re: Do Anthroposophists smile?
I found a great example of a smiling Anthro...(sorry, none of Doc Steiner
yet)...
http://www.anthros-online.de/anthroposophie/drittes_auge.GIF
...Gary
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 05:44:23 +0000
From: (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: Re: Anti-kiwitism in Steiner
Dan Dugan wrote:
) Percedol, please give bibliographic information with your quotations.
)
) Thanks, Dan Dugan
)
)
)
P##############
"It is not the personality of the contributor that matters, since
anything meaningful and valid he has to to make is not his creation or
discovery, but rather reflects a superindividual and objective
teaching." (Anonymous)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 06:15:51 +0000
From: (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: -ism in Steiner
koala noos.fr wrote:
) )le 21/03/02 23:37, Percedol netscape.net ? Percedol netscape.net a
) )?crit?:
)
) )) Bob D Jour (bdjour juno.com) wrote:
) )
)
) )
) )) This is a sick pseudo-religion that eschews personal responsibility and
) )) any form of morality. It is fascism hiding behind a facade of New Age
) )) mysticism. Steiner's beliefs are dangerous, they are amoral, and they
) )) are a threat to the well-being of the children who are being
) )) indoctrinated at Waldorf schools worldwide.
) ))
) )) bdjour
) )
) ) P""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
) ) If it's not understood and is therefore applied in very strange ways,
) ) not if
) ) one understands it.
)
) What is not understood? All Steiner's theories about how to raise
) children
) were proven wrong or invalidated by all psychologists?
)
) What in hell is there in anthroposophy to understand?
)
) If Steiner is proven wrong according to his writings about the teaching
) of
) children (representing many books already) that is supposed to take into
) account the organisation of the Spiritual, then it is because the idea
) of
) the Spiritual is just the idea Steiner makes out of it, or the
) projection of
) Steiner's psych? upon the Spiritual, or rather a Steiner-cast Spiritual.
P###############
I would like to see the authors of those books...
) "Understanding it" to use your own words, would mean understanding
) Steiner
) as an individual, not necessarily understanding his works or
) understanding
) the Spiritual as devised by him, since it is falsely devised when
) applied to
) the psychology of children as to their education, otherwise it would
) work.
P#################
We can talk about discipline, not about education. I don't know about
Waldorf.
) I can understand a thief or a killer as an individual, what led him to
) commit such actions, I don't have to do the same in order to say that I
) understand him.
)
) You can understand nazism (or a nazi), how it functions, how it is
) devised,
) its symbolism, the fascination people had with it, but that will never
) make
) you necessarily espouse their ideas. Understanding is not necessarily
) approving.
P################
What do you mean (except for the last sentence)?
)
) You have to understand that if there is a Spiritual, it is the Spiritual
) that devised Steiner and all living things on this earth, not the
) contrary.
P###############
We agree that man was created by the Spiritual.
)
) You make the same truisms like Joel. According to what you say it is the
) same kind of syllogism:
)
) * it can only be understood even if there is nothing to understand,
)
) * and if I say there is nothing to understand, it is because I haven't
) understood
P################
It's easy to understand. The fact is that maybe is too easy.
) In Physics, nobody will tell you that if a theory is wrong, it is
) because
) you haven't understood. Simply because it doesn't work or doesn't resist
) to
) the experiment that was carried out to verify it.
)
) It may sound strange but it is the same in philosophy. There are many
) cases
) where the philosopher invalidate another philosopher's theory by trying
) to
) verify it with dialectic. Plato did that so often and very well. That is
) also what we do on this list.
P#############
But it works!
)
) The dead-end statement, "it is because you haven't understood" with no
) further argumentations, is no dialectics.
)
) I said that many times, take any ludicrous statement that one will prove
) wrong very logically, then if the opposing party merely tells you it is
) because you haven't understood, then the debate is hopeless.
)
) Sorry to have bothered the list again with the same ideas.
)
)
) koala.
)
P#############
It is hopeless because there is no bhakti.You cannot understanding
something that you already criticize. It does not work that way. You
should know that.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 06:23:20 +0000
From: (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: -ism in Steiner
But in many cases a murder is the result of actions committed in
) ) a previous life. But you never know.
)
) You said it, you never know. So why people try to speak of something
) they
) never knew or will never know or that they never know, and try to adapt
) their behavior according to something they never know?
)
) I remember an article written in an esoteric magazine about the curse of
) the
) Templars and why some other generations of templars had to understand
) it in
) order to avenge their ancesters by accomplising murders according to it
) (or
) its karmic debt I suppose). Any action can be justified by any crackpot
) theories.
)
) It gives me a cold back. Chilling.
P############
I already posted about this (RE: Re: Anti-kiwitism in Steiner).
Have you read Der'Golem' by Meyrink?
)
) ) And even if this is the case, one
) ) has to work to change things.
) ) Have you seen the movie 'dead again' by Kenneth Branagh?
) ) (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0101669)
)
) Yes.
)
) Have you seen "groundhog's day"?
P############
It's on the top of my list but I don't have much time for movies now.
)
) ) Things can be changed. The solution is forgiveness. That stops the
) ) karmic round.
)
) I can forgive the nazis once they are beaten, not before. I can forgive
) totalitarian regimes once they are toppled not before...
)
) And to stop the Waldorf schools, what should we do in order to stop
) their
) karmic round? Forgive them will make them disappear?
P#############
wei-wu-wei
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 06:37:22 +0000
From: (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: Anti-Semitism in Steiner
koala noos.fr wrote:
) )le 22/03/02 18:02, Percedol netscape.net ? Percedol netscape.net a
) )?crit?:
)
)
) ) The knowledge of reincarnation and karma is the basis for real morality
) ) and
) ) ethics. But you have to understand it. Look at the Gospels: how many
) ) crimes
) ) were committed in that name. Jesus was not responsible for those errors.
) ) Steiner is not responsible if people do not understand.
)
) L.Ron Hubbard is not responsible as well I suppose, if people don't
) understand... Will he have to be forgiven right now according to karmic
) laws?
P############
I don't know much about Hubbard. I suppose he's totally unrelated to
esotericism.
)
) Percedol, Steiner is not a prophet nor a Master of any kind. You compare
) things that are not comparable.
)
) In your off-list discussion, you even say that Saliguero was a Master!!!
P############
Different people different opinions.
)
) To which extremes will you go next time? Berlusconi is a Master?
) Mussolini
) is a Master? But perhaps they were not understood?
P##########
Why Berlusconi? And not D'alema or Pannella?
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 07:17:45 +0000
From: (Percedol netscape.net)
Subject: RE: Percedol's frivolous approach to history
Peter Staudenmaier wrote:
) Percedol writes:
)
) )I was thinking to Ma and Pa that made me, although they lived during
) )those times...
)
) I didn't ask about your parents, I asked about you. Why are you utterly
) indifferent toward fascism?
P#####################
Because I never felt any attraction or interest towards it at all, not
for good not for bad. Are you interested in the bKa'-rgyud-pa? If not,
well the same for me about fascism.
Don't you think it played a rather important
) role in Italy's recent history?
P######################
It played a role some fifty years ago. Then started another chapter. And
Italy had to deal with the communist threat for many years.
Don't you think it continues to have a
) powerful influence within Italian politics?
P######################
No, because there is no fascism anymore (maybe some nostalgics).
Who do you think makes up the
) current governing coalition in Italy?
P#######################
It's a center-right coalition. Like the tories in England, or the
republicans in the US.
Did you somehow miss the fact that
) Berlusconi's junior partner, the National Alliance, is the heir to
) Mussolini's Fascist party?
P####################
I don't follow politics but from newspaper I think Fini worked to make
the move to become an european right wing party.
Are you unaware that the current Deputy Prime
) Minister, Gianfranco Fini, describes himself as a "post-fascist"?
P####################
Exactly, it could not be fascist anymore. Watching the Maurizio Costanzo
show I think Fini is the best politicl speaker in Italy. Second comes
D'Alema. I don't mean the substance just the oratory ability.
And more
) to the point, how can you pretend that you "don't care about" fascism
) while
) simultaneously praising its "positive" sides?
)
) )And now I am learning something by reading the 'corriere della sera".
)
) I suppose that's a start, but you'll need to go beyond reading the
) newspaper
) if you want to learn something about history.
P################
I am not attracted by fascism (nor by communism). I am interested in
spiritual discipline, not in politics. I couldn't read De Felice or
anything about. It's just like HPB. I cannot read it.
)
) )Ouch! No, I am not anti-semite.
)
) Then why do you promote antisemitic views?
P##############
I don't. For me any religion is OK if it's real. Not the jeohva witness
thing, etc. Until Islam. Same as Guenon I consider it the last religion.
If it helps you, I would not have any problem to get married with a
woman from any of the main religions (Hindu, Buddhism, Judaism, Taoism,
Christianity, Islam, etc.)
)
) )But several of the people who knew him at that time are still alive and
) )they say enough for me about him during that time.
)
) That's why you're having trouble making sense of history, Percedol. You
) believe people who are obviously lying and who have self-evident
) personal
) reasons to distort the truth. Do you know how many elderly Germans there
) are
) who were active Nazis in their youth and who now deny that their late
) comrades, and even the top Nazi leadership, were racists and
) antisemites?
) Would their patently false testimony be "enough for you" to decide that
)
) Hitler and Himmler were really just decent fellows after all? Get a
) clue:
) Scaligero was a very active fascist who vigorously promoted racism in a
) very
) public way right up until the fall of Mussolini. There is no dispute
) about
) this among historians of Italian fascism. The only people who dispute it
) are
) Scaligero's old friends. Doesn't that tell you something?
P##############
Yes, that you are not able to distinguish the level of a person his
teaching. Have you tried Castaneda?
) )Please select which incarnation from his past you are interested in!
)
) I think you need to figure out just what it is that you are interested
) in
) about Scaligero, since historical accuracy doesn't seem to count for
) much
) with you.
P##################
The spiritual discipline. Nothing else. Meditation, not politics or
theories. But it looks like you haven't understood it yet. I said over
and over that I am not interested in politics. Only metaphysics. And
only fron a meditative approach, not as a theory.
)
) )Straight to the point! No good metaphors?
)
) I try to avoid metaphors when talking with people like you.
P#################
This sounds like a discrimination.
)
) )How many pages written by Scaligero have you ever read?
)
) Probably 200 or so.
P################
Could you tell me from what sources: which books, chapter, article.
Why would this make a difference? I've never read a
) single page written by Roberto Farinacci, for example, yet I know
) perfectly
) well that he was the foremost antisemite in Mussolini's regime. Why are
) you
) incapable of learning the simplest biographical facts about your hero
) Scaligero? You're in Italy, right? And you seem to know people who have
) access to Scaligero's earlier publications. How come you haven't taken
) even
) a brief look into the matter? I'm thousands of miles away from Italy, I
) don't even read much Italian, and without trying particularly hard I've
) come
) across nearly a dozen thoroughly researched historical studies of
) Italian
) Fascism that explain exactly what Scaligero was up to in the 1930's and
) 1940's. These historians have read Scaligero's articles from the period,
)
) despite your preposterous claim to the contrary, and they quote those
) very
) articles, sometimes at length. Yet somehow all of this is not "enough
) for
) you" to re-examine your beliefs. That is indeed an extremely frivolous
) approach to history.
P##################
You are interested in history. I am interested in the Spiritual. You
examine historical sources. I examine the effects of the dicipline. You
put together data. I tend to the elimination of data, to sunya.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 00:20:02 -0800
From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
Subject: Re: Do Anthroposophists smile?
)I found a great example of a smiling Anthro...(sorry, none of Doc Steiner
)yet)...
)
)http://www.anthros-online.de/anthroposophie/drittes_auge.GIF
)
)...Gary
Debra:
Gary, are you sure this is a smiling Anthro and not a David Letterman
stint on Scientology? LOL!
Debra
--
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 677
-- Topica Digest --
RE: Re: Anti-kiwitism in Steiner
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
RE: Re: Anti-kiwitism in Steiner
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
RE: Re: Anti-kiwitism in Steiner
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
RE: Antistaudenmeierism: Steiner's and Percedol's
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
RE: -ism in Steiner
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
Re: Percedol's frivolous approach to history
By mysplum earthlink.net
Percedol's elimination of data
By peter_zegers runbox.no
Temporary unsubscription
By sarah__jo hotmail.com
Steiner and Nazism's precursors
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: Steiner and Nazism's precursors
By koala noos.fr
Re: Antistaudenmeierism: Steiner's and Percedol's
By mysplum earthlink.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:30:27 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Re: Anti-kiwitism in Steiner
Percedol says one should always intervene in others' misfortune
(say, a bullying situation at school), and I asked why, since it
seems to me to contradict the notion of karma.
Percedol quotes Steiner:
)"It would be a grave error, i.e. a deformation of the doctrine of karma, to
)show no interest in the difficulties of others and to renounce to help
)them, thinking that each one is related to its own karmic difficulties and
)being alone in the process of going through them: since he/she
)himself/herself caused them, it would make no sense to offer our help,
)because he/she alone would have the possibility to solve them. If things
)were like this the mission of the Logos on the Earth would be useless. But
)things are not like this: the individual karma is objectively related to
)the general human karma (?). Furthermore, the inner principle (?) that is
)able to realize the independence from karma, produces (?) the beginning of
)a new relationship with the others. The activity that (?) is able to free
)the original element of the soul, bears the freeing connection with the
)soul of others. Whereas it does not move in this direction and is not
)working for the others, according to its own transcendent element, it
)paralyzes itself. (?) Who is able to take upon himself the karma of others,
)becomes free from karma."
None of which answers the objections I raised, it just reasserts the
doctrine. It is an "error" and "deformation" of the doctrine of karma, but
no explanation of why. "The individual karma is objectively related to the
general human karma" - what does this mean? The usual Steiner statement that
something is "objectively" true because Steiner says it is. *How* is the
individual's karma related to the general human karma?
Some sort of "inner principle" enables us to free ourselves from karma. What
is this inner principle? But more importantly, what then is karma? If we can
free ourselves from it, then it cannot be what is necessarily going to
happen.
This is gobbledygook, very reassuring if you already believe in
karma, I guess, but a meaningless, uninterpretable statement
otherwise. Sorry, Percedol.
Percedol stated:
)The knowledge of reincarnation and karma is the basis for real morality and
)ethics.
and I objected. So Percedol tosses out another Steiner quote:
)"Only the moral man can be social. When he/she knows that there is no
)thought or feeling, that does not produce its karmic consequences, (?)
)he/she realizes the responsibility of every single inner activity.
Here "moral man" is equated with "man who believes in karma," but my point
is that obviously plenty of people who don't believe in reincarnation and
karma are ethical people. Also, it is very different to say that thoughts
and feelings my have consequences, than to say they have *karmic*
consequences.
)He/she knows that this activity decides the form of reality: he/she
)becomes (?) the corrector of him/herself: (he/she) will know that every
)wrong thought, an hateful thought, moves and returns to him/her )to be
)known and solved: (if it's) not known, (if it's) not solved, it works
)against him/her as an obstacle, about which he /she )instinctively tends to
)give the fault to others: he/she stops being )played by instincts, he/she
)recognizes their mechanism. He/she knows )that has to start to consider
)his/her own thoughts and feelings as )working entities, nor more nor less
)than the physical ones: there is )no thought or feeling that, moving from
)him/her, does not produce )something which final product is his/her
)destiny. Responsibility )within him/her becomes morality: the morality of a
)free (wo)man, since )is founded upon knowledge. (?) Such a (wo)man not only
)cannot be used )by ideological influences, but start being a co-operator to
)free other )men: the true social action."
Children usually outgrow this type of magical thinking - the belief that
one's own thoughts can actually create physical effects in the world - so
for instance if you think a bad thought about someone, you can cause them to
have an accident or die. When grown-ups are reinforcing this belief with
small children, it's very damaging.
This is actually central to what is wrong in Waldorf and why parents should
not expose their children to disturbed people who think this way.
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:31:48 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Re: Anti-kiwitism in Steiner
Percedol says one should always intervene in others' misfortune
(say, a bullying situation at school), and I asked why, since it
seems to me to contradict the notion of karma.
Percedol quotes Steiner:
)"It would be a grave error, i.e. a deformation of the doctrine of karma, to
)show no interest in the difficulties of others and to renounce to help
)them, thinking that each one is related to its own karmic difficulties and
)being alone in the process of going through them: since he/she
)himself/herself caused them, it would make no sense to offer our help,
)because he/she alone would have the possibility to solve them. If things
)were like this the mission of the Logos on the Earth would be useless. But
)things are not like this: the individual karma is objectively related to
)the general human karma (?). Furthermore, the inner principle (?) that is
)able to realize the independence from karma, produces (?) the beginning of
)a new relationship with the others. The activity that (?) is able to free
)the original element of the soul, bears the freeing connection with the
)soul of others. Whereas it does not move in this direction and is not
)working for the others, according to its own transcendent element, it
)paralyzes itself. (?) Who is able to take upon himself the karma of others,
)becomes free from karma."
None of which answers the objections I raised, it just reasserts the
doctrine. It is an "error" and "deformation" of the doctrine of karma, but
no explanation of why. "The individual karma is objectively related to the
general human karma" - what does this mean? The usual Steiner statement that
something is "objectively" true because Steiner says it is. *How* is the
individual's karma related to the general human karma?
Some sort of "inner principle" enables us to free ourselves from karma. What
is this inner principle? But more importantly, what then is karma? If we can
free ourselves from it, then it cannot be what is necessarily going to
happen.
This is gobbledygook, very reassuring if you already believe in
karma, I guess, but a meaningless, uninterpretable statement
otherwise. Sorry, Percedol.
Percedol stated:
)The knowledge of reincarnation and karma is the basis for real morality and
)ethics.
and I objected. So Percedol tosses out another Steiner quote:
)"Only the moral man can be social. When he/she knows that there is no
)thought or feeling, that does not produce its karmic consequences, (?)
)he/she realizes the responsibility of every single inner activity.
Here "moral man" is equated with "man who believes in karma," but my point
is that obviously plenty of people who don't believe in reincarnation and
karma are ethical people. Also, it is very different to say that thoughts
and feelings my have consequences, than to say they have *karmic*
consequences.
)He/she knows that this activity decides the form of reality: he/she
)becomes (?) the corrector of him/herself: (he/she) will know that every
)wrong thought, an hateful thought, moves and returns to him/her )to be
)known and solved: (if it's) not known, (if it's) not solved, it works
)against him/her as an obstacle, about which he /she )instinctively tends to
)give the fault to others: he/she stops being )played by instincts, he/she
)recognizes their mechanism. He/she knows )that has to start to consider
)his/her own thoughts and feelings as )working entities, nor more nor less
)than the physical ones: there is )no thought or feeling that, moving from
)him/her, does not produce )something which final product is his/her
)destiny. Responsibility )within him/her becomes morality: the morality of a
)free (wo)man, since )is founded upon knowledge. (?) Such a (wo)man not only
)cannot be used )by ideological influences, but start being a co-operator to
)free other )men: the true social action."
Children usually outgrow this type of magical thinking - the belief that
one's own thoughts can actually create physical effects in the world - so
for instance if you think a bad thought about someone, you can cause them to
have an accident or die. When grown-ups are reinforcing this belief with
small children, it's very damaging.
This is actually central to what is wrong in Waldorf and why parents should
not expose their children to disturbed people who think this way.
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:35:41 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Re: Anti-kiwitism in Steiner
Percedol says one should always intervene in others' misfortune
(say, a bullying situation at school), and I asked why, since it
seems to me to contradict the notion of karma.
Percedol quotes Steiner:
)"It would be a grave error, i.e. a deformation of the doctrine of karma, to
)show no interest in the difficulties of others and to renounce to help
)them, thinking that each one is related to its own karmic difficulties and
)being alone in the process of going through them: since he/she
)himself/herself caused them, it would make no sense to offer our help,
)because he/she alone would have the possibility to solve them. If things
)were like this the mission of the Logos on the Earth would be useless. But
)things are not like this: the individual karma is objectively related to
)the general human karma (?). Furthermore, the inner principle (?) that is
)able to realize the independence from karma, produces (?) the beginning of
)a new relationship with the others. The activity that (?) is able to free
)the original element of the soul, bears the freeing connection with the
)soul of others. Whereas it does not move in this direction and is not
)working for the others, according to its own transcendent element, it
)paralyzes itself. (?) Who is able to take upon himself the karma of others,
)becomes free from karma."
None of which answers the objections I raised, it just reasserts the
doctrine. It is an "error" and "deformation" of the doctrine of karma, but
no explanation of why. "The individual karma is objectively related to the
general human karma" - what does this mean? The usual Steiner statement that
something is "objectively" true because Steiner says it is. *How* is the
individual's karma related to the general human karma?
Some sort of "inner principle" enables us to free ourselves from karma. What
is this inner principle? But more importantly, what then is karma? If we can
free ourselves from it, then it cannot be what is necessarily going to
happen.
This is gobbledygook, very reassuring if you already believe in
karma, I guess, but a meaningless, uninterpretable statement
otherwise. Sorry, Percedol.
Percedol stated:
)The knowledge of reincarnation and karma is the basis for real morality and
)ethics.
and I objected. So Percedol tosses out another Steiner quote:
)"Only the moral man can be social. When he/she knows that there is no
)thought or feeling, that does not produce its karmic consequences, (?)
)he/she realizes the responsibility of every single inner activity.
Here "moral man" is equated with "man who believes in karma," but my point
is that obviously plenty of people who don't believe in reincarnation and
karma are ethical people. Also, it is very different to say that thoughts
and feelings my have consequences, than to say they have *karmic*
consequences.
)He/she knows that this activity decides the form of reality: he/she
)becomes (?) the corrector of him/herself: (he/she) will know that every
)wrong thought, an hateful thought, moves and returns to him/her )to be
)known and solved: (if it's) not known, (if it's) not solved, it works
)against him/her as an obstacle, about which he /she )instinctively tends to
)give the fault to others: he/she stops being )played by instincts, he/she
)recognizes their mechanism. He/she knows )that has to start to consider
)his/her own thoughts and feelings as )working entities, nor more nor less
)than the physical ones: there is )no thought or feeling that, moving from
)him/her, does not produce )something which final product is his/her
)destiny. Responsibility )within him/her becomes morality: the morality of a
)free (wo)man, since )is founded upon knowledge. (?) Such a (wo)man not only
)cannot be used )by ideological influences, but start being a co-operator to
)free other )men: the true social action."
Children usually outgrow this type of magical thinking - the belief that
one's own thoughts can actually create physical effects in the world - so
for instance if you think a bad thought about someone, you can cause them to
have an accident or die. When grown-ups are reinforcing this belief with
small children, it's very damaging.
This is actually central to what is wrong in Waldorf and why parents should
not expose their children to disturbed people who think this way.
Diana
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Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:43:54 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Antistaudenmeierism: Steiner's and Percedol's
Percedol:
)The difference is that the Church tries to convert, an esotericist does not
)care to convert anyone.
My experience is just the opposite. I've had many Catholic friends,
and I don't recall a single one of them ever trying to convert me.
Where I grew up practically everybody was Catholic. When the kids had
sleepover parties, all the kids would have to go to Mass Saturday
evening and I was sometimes the only one who wasn't going because I
wasn't Catholic. The parents would always arrange for one parent to
stay behind so I wouldn't be home alone. Nobody ever suggested it
would be simpler to just take me to Mass with them. That was not considered
appropriate because they knew my parents had other beliefs.
My experience with esotericists is exactly the opposite. They spent
3 years slowly working on us, "helping" us change our lifestyle to
be receptive to Steiner and preparing our son to some day be able to
accept occult "truths." Yet in parent interviews they didn't even
mention the name of the religion they were hoping to convert us to.
Diana
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:55:20 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: -ism in Steiner
In a discussion with Koala, Percedol comments:
)I would like to see the authors of those books...
and in another thread, to Peter S.:
)How many pages written by Scaligero have you ever read?
Peter:
)Probably 200 or so.
Percedol:
)Could you tell me from what sources: which books, chapter, article.
and yet, when he is asked for source information himself, Percedol replies:
)"It is not the personality of the contributor that matters, since anything
)meaningful and valid he has to to make is not his creation or discovery,
)but rather reflects a superindividual and objective teaching." (Anonymous)
Maybe you just got mixed up, Percedol. Nobody asked you about the authors'
personalities. You were asked to cite book, chapter, article.
Diana
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 08:24:29 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Percedol's frivolous approach to history
on 3/23/02 11:17 PM, Percedol netscape.net at Percedol netscape.net wrote:
)
) P##############
) I don't. For me any religion is OK if it's real. Not the jeohva witness
) thing, etc. Until Islam. Same as Guenon I consider it the last religion.
) If it helps you, I would not have any problem to get married with a
) woman from any of the main religions (Hindu, Buddhism, Judaism, Taoism,
) Christianity, Islam, etc.)
)
Sharon: I'm trying to understand you. You say you can't read HPB, which I
find outrageous coming from someone who has Anthroposophist leanings.
Steiner is CLOSELY linked with Theosophy, his group is but a schism of The
Theosophical Society. Then above you claim that Jehovah Witnesses are not
real. You bet their religion is real to them, they are even willing to go
door to door to tell others of their faith. I just had a couple of them
visiting me yesterday. They don't have the need to be secretive and quiet
about their beliefs. You don't seem to understand that the "main" religions
started as little cults like the Jehova Witnesses. Christianity was started
by a handful of folks, so did Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Islam... Mormonism
started off as a small handful and in *one and a half* centuries it has
become the fastest growing religion in the WORLD next to Islam! Anthro is
piddle sticks compared to it, wakey wakey, the Mormon's beliefs are very
very real to them, just as Jehova Witnesses' beliefs are. Jehova Witness is
a household word in America, Anthro is not, few have ever heard of it. I bet
Jehova Witnesses far surpasses Anthro in terms of numbers. What do you mean
real? Islam is not the last religion, the last time the sociologist R. Stark
checked on Mormonism (1998 I think), their numbers were higher than he had
predicted, they are growing rapidly and are considered a new world religion.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 16:37:35 +0100
From: Peter Zegers (peter_zegers runbox.no)
Subject: Percedol's elimination of data
Percedol,
You characterize your contributions to this discussion very good when
you write: "I tend to the elimination of data, to sunya." What does
'sunya' mean by the way?
Peter Zegers
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 16:26:10 +0000
From: "Sarah-Jo Robinson" (sarah__jo hotmail.com)
Subject: Temporary unsubscription
Please temporarily unsubscribe me from the waldorf critics list until
14/04/2002 as I will be away and unable to pick up messages. Best wishes,
Sarah-Jo R.
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 20:53:44 -0600
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: Steiner and Nazism's precursors
Bob wrote:
))Yes, I will admit that Steiner never personally killed a Jew. But his
))philosophy is part of the intellectual milieu that ))allowed the Nazis to
))come to power and supplies the Nazi apologists ))with their strongest
))arguments.
and koala replied:
)I agree with that, but can Peter Staudenmaier, or Peter Z. tell us which
)conclusions one of them drew after reading "Black sun" by )Goodrick Clarke
)(if my memory is good, Peter S. seemed to differ on )this very argument
)according to the recent reading of that book - I )bought it recently, along
)with "le matin des magiciens" which was )available as a paperback printing,
)but hadn't the time so far to read )them).
I don't differ with Bob on this point. I agree with Bob that Steiner
contributed to the intellectual and cultural milieu that made possible the
rise of Nazism as a mass movement in early 20th century Germany. To the best
of my knowledge, Goodrick-Clarke has never taken a public stance on this
question, but his first book (The Occult Roots of Nazism) provides evidence
of Steiner's involvement in the same racist-occult circles that produced the
esoteric wing of the Nazis. His new book Black Sun, on the other hand,
mostly focuses on post-war developments within the racist-occult scene. I
don't recall what The Morning of the Magicians (as Pauwels & Bergier's book
is known in English) has to say about Steiner, if anything. In general I
think it's a sensationalistic and unreliable work that gives much too much
credence to occult sources.
There are several other books that explore Steiner's complicated
relationship with the pre-Nazi and proto-Nazi racist occult movement,
including James Webb's excellent study The Occult Establishment and
Gugenberger & Schweidlenka's sympathetic but critical survey Mutter Erde -
Magie und Politik. You can find a brief summary of this research in the
article "Anthroposophy and Its Defenders" by Peter Zegers and myself,
especially the last third or so of the article, which examines the
relationship between anthroposophy and Nazism. The article is posted at the
PLANS site:
www.waldorfcritics.org/active/articles/anthroposophy_nazism.htm
Peter S.
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 07:35:58 +0100
From: (koala noos.fr)
Subject: Re: Steiner and Nazism's precursors
)le 25/03/02 3:53, Peter Staudenmaier ? pstaud hotmail.com a ?crit?:
))) Bob wrote:
)
))) Yes, I will admit that Steiner never personally killed a Jew. But his
))) philosophy is part of the intellectual milieu that ))allowed the Nazis to
))) come to power and supplies the Nazi apologists ))with their strongest
))) arguments.
)
)) and koala replied:
)
)) I agree with that, but can Peter Staudenmaier, or Peter Z. tell us which
)) conclusions one of them drew after reading "Black sun" by )Goodrick Clarke
)) (if my memory is good, Peter S. seemed to differ on )this very argument
)) according to the recent reading of that book - I )bought it recently, along
)) with "le matin des magiciens" which was )available as a paperback printing,
)) but hadn't the time so far to read )them).
)
) I don't differ with Bob on this point. I agree with Bob that Steiner
) contributed to the intellectual and cultural milieu that made possible the
) rise of Nazism as a mass movement in early 20th century Germany. To the best
) of my knowledge, Goodrick-Clarke has never taken a public stance on this
) question, but his first book (The Occult Roots of Nazism) provides evidence
) of Steiner's involvement in the same racist-occult circles that produced the
) esoteric wing of the Nazis. His new book Black Sun, on the other hand,
) mostly focuses on post-war developments within the racist-occult scene. I
) don't recall what The Morning of the Magicians (as Pauwels & Bergier's book
) is known in English) has to say about Steiner, if anything. In general I
) think it's a sensationalistic and unreliable work that gives much too much
) credence to occult sources.
)
) There are several other books that explore Steiner's complicated
) relationship with the pre-Nazi and proto-Nazi racist occult movement,
) including James Webb's excellent study The Occult Establishment and
) Gugenberger & Schweidlenka's sympathetic but critical survey Mutter Erde -
) Magie und Politik. You can find a brief summary of this research in the
) article "Anthroposophy and Its Defenders" by Peter Zegers and myself,
) especially the last third or so of the article, which examines the
) relationship between anthroposophy and Nazism. The article is posted at the
) PLANS site:
) www.waldorfcritics.org/active/articles/anthroposophy_nazism.htm
)
) Peter S.
Many thanks for the answer.
koala.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 07:14:30 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Antistaudenmeierism: Steiner's and Percedol's
on 3/24/02 4:43 AM, Diana Winters at Winters_Diana hotmail.com wrote:
)
) Percedol:
)
)) The difference is that the Church tries to convert, an esotericist does not
)) care to convert anyone.
Sharon: No, Esotericists just palm off their mumbo jumbo on you without your
sanction. They use you to their ends and impose their ideology on you,
manipulating you to accept their opinions and habits. Anthroposophists made
my family prop up Anthroposophy without our understanding or permission. It
is a form of rape. Those days should be over Percedol, esotericism is
elitist and fraud if parents aren't getting the whole scoop, and aren't
conscious. Anthroposophists have absolutely no right to take our children
and teach them Anthroposophy without our permission and understanding. It is
wrong. They have no right to make us volunteer all day to advance their
weird agenda without our knowledge, using our good will and idealism as
young parents. Anthroposophists have absolutely no right to pressure us
donate when we haven't even heard of Steiner's mystical temple. It's wrong,
wrong, wrong and quintessentially "cult-like."
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 678
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Antistaudenmeierism: Steiner's and Percedol's
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
RE: Re: Antistaudenmeierism: Steiner's and Percedol's
By Percedol netscape.net
Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Re: Anti-Semitism in Steiner
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: Antistaudenmeierism: Steiner's and Percedol's
By mysplum earthlink.net
Spot the Difference #2
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: Spot the Difference #2
By koala noos.fr
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 08:07:44 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Antistaudenmeierism: Steiner's and Percedol's
Well put, Sharon. I noticed you wrote "anthroposophists" and not simply
"Waldorf teachers." I agree with this distinction as many W teachers are
not aware of how they are being used for the same purpose. I would add,
however, there are Anthroposophists who would prefer to put an end to the
deception and seem to be working to this end. Perhaps they are not
vehement in their efforts and PLANS fills this void.
My youngest son sat alone in his room the other day looking at his grade 1
Waldorf class photo from two years ago. I entered his room and he looked
up. "I wonder how many kids still there, Dad?" I did a count as I am still
in touch with many parents. After difficult and disturbing times one third
of the class is left.
- Walden
) Sharon: No, Esotericists just palm off their mumbo jumbo on you without
your
) sanction. They use you to their ends and impose their ideology on you,
) manipulating you to accept their opinions and habits. Anthroposophists
made
) my family prop up Anthroposophy without our understanding or permission.
It
) is a form of rape. Those days should be over Percedol, esotericism is
) elitist and fraud if parents aren't getting the whole scoop, and aren't
) conscious. Anthroposophists have absolutely no right to take our children
) and teach them Anthroposophy without our permission and understanding. It
is
) wrong. They have no right to make us volunteer all day to advance their
) weird agenda without our knowledge, using our good will and idealism as
) young parents. Anthroposophists have absolutely no right to pressure us
) donate when we haven't even heard of Steiner's mystical temple. It's
wrong,
) wrong, wrong and quintessentially "cult-like."
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 11:44:24 -0500
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: RE: Re: Antistaudenmeierism: Steiner's and Percedol's
mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net) wrote:
)on 3/24/02 4:43 AM, Diana Winters at Winters_Diana hotmail.com wrote:
)Sharon: No, Esotericists just palm off their mumbo jumbo on you without your
)sanction. They use you to their ends and impose their ideology on you,
)manipulating you to accept their opinions and habits. Anthroposophists made
)my family prop up Anthroposophy without our understanding or permission. It
)is a form of rape. Those days should be over Percedol, esotericism is
)elitist and fraud if parents aren't getting the whole scoop, and aren't
)conscious. Anthroposophists have absolutely no right to take our children
)and teach them Anthroposophy without our permission and understanding. It is
)wrong. They have no right to make us volunteer all day to advance their
)weird agenda without our knowledge, using our good will and idealism as
)young parents. Anthroposophists have absolutely no right to pressure us
)donate when we haven't even heard of Steiner's mystical temple. It's wrong,
)wrong, wrong and quintessentially "cult-like."
Look, Diana, I don't know anything about Waldorf schools, but I have
never seen any pressure towards anybody from the people I know, which
means that nobody I know talks to people about anthroposophy if there
is no request or interest. That's how things should be.
Percedol
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 11:33:17 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure
Here are some interesting quotes from the brochure of the Rudolf
Steiner Institute's summer school. These courses are attended by
Waldorf teachers for enrichment.
"Unlike the more trance-like clairvoyance of traditional mysticism,
Steiner's painstakingly schooled spiritual perception allowed him to
explore spirit domains, report insights, and base suggestions for the
conduct of practical life on his discoveries. Steiner gave the name
"anthroposophy" to this spirit-based knowledge and he elaborated it
in some forty books and about 6,000 lectures on topics from medicine,
agriculture, and education, to cosmology, Christology and the arts."
[Anonymous editorial, Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure July 6-27,
2002, inside front cover.]
In opposition to Joel's assertion that Anthroposophy is a "method"
only, this official statement describes Anthroposophy as
"spirit-based knowledge," and links it clearly to the -content- of
Steiner's books and lectures.
Regarding the world-view of Waldorf teachers:
"Certain fundamental ideas which are based on a spiritual
understanding of the human being characterize Waldorf education. When
these ideas live deeply in the teacher, they can give rise to a
renewing impulse in education." [Petrash, Jack. "Fundamentals of
Waldorf Education I." Course description, Rudolf Steiner Institute
brochure, July 6-27, 2002, p. 12]
About eurythmy, a required subject for all Waldorf students:
"This course offers a path of experience to the zodiacal signs
through the cosmic dance of eurythmy, a modern form of temple dance
based on cosmic principles underlying the creative power of speech
and music. By mirroring the heavenly world upon earth, cosmic dance
reveals something of the star mysteries of Divine Sophia. A central
goal of this practice is to find a living relationship to the starry
heavens, especially to the spiritual realm of the signs or
constellations of the zodiac." [Powell, Robert and Wolfgang Wortberg.
"The Divine Feminine in the New Millennium: Sophia and the Signs of
the Zodiac in Cosmic Evolution." Course description, Rudolf Steiner
Institute brochure July 6-27 2002, p. 32.]
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:42:49 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Re: Anti-Semitism in Steiner
Percedol:
) )The knowledge of reincarnation and karma is the basis for real )morality
) )and ethics.
Diana replied:
) That's totally absurd. No one in the world who doesn't believe in
) reincarnation and karma has "real" morality or ethics? Obviously bullshit.
Later, Percedol:
)But you have to understand it.
Then Diana wrote:
) Yeah, so I've been told. Usually the end of the discussion, as it seems to
) be here. Always "You don't understand," never any further explanation.
Walden: This seeming *lack of understanding* is disturbing. What arrogance
to believe knowledge (spiritual or otherwise) is held by those with
Anthroposophical *seeing.* We are told to simply accept another's faculty
when our own spiritual inadequacies hinder our development. It reminds me
of the often used line by a parent when a child is looking for an answer:
"Because I said so."
- Walden
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 20:49:23 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Antistaudenmeierism: Steiner's and Percedol's
on 3/25/02 8:44 AM, Percedol netscape.net at Percedol netscape.net wrote:
) Look, Diana, I don't know anything about Waldorf schools, but I have never
) seen any pressure towards anybody from the people I know, which means that
) nobody I know talks to people about anthroposophy if there is no request or
) interest. That's how things should be.
Sharon: Sorry to confuse you, but it was me who wrote that post, not Diana.
When it comes to Waldorf education, silent esotericism is not how things
should be. This Waldorf critics list is about bringing attention to the
quiet subtext of Waldorf, ie. esoteric Anthroposophy. Here we talk about,
(loud and clear) what Anthroposophists don't talk about. Waldorf schools are
based 100% on Steiner's occultism. Waldorf teaches Anthroposophy to children
often without parental sanction or understanding, many of the teachers are
esoteric Anthroposophists following Steiner's Waldorf path of Initiation,
which would be alright if they were open about it, but unfortunately, they
don't bother to inform prospective parents that Waldorf is a parochial
school for Anthroposophy, a magical mystery school. That is *not* how things
should be.
Anthroposophists have walked into the public system here in the US
pretending that they are nonsectarian when nothing could be further from the
truth. We demand that Anthroposophists inform prospective parents and
parents of enrolled children about the religion that informs all classroom
activity. We demand that Anthroposophists get eXoteric with their
esotericism so that unsuspecting families like mine are not duped. Anthros
need to make it clear to parents that Waldorf is religion based. They need
to respect the Constitution and their fellow human beings by being
forthright.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 21:23:38 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Spot the Difference #2
Dan Dugan wrote: Here are some interesting quotes from the brochure of the
Rudolf
Steiner Institute's summer school. These courses are attended by
Waldorf teachers for enrichment.
(snip)
) About eurythmy, a required subject for all Waldorf students:
)
) "This course offers a path of experience to the zodiacal signs
) through the cosmic dance of eurythmy, a modern form of temple dance
) based on cosmic principles underlying the creative power of speech
) and music. By mirroring the heavenly world upon earth, cosmic dance
) reveals something of the star mysteries of Divine Sophia. A central
) goal of this practice is to find a living relationship to the starry
) heavens, especially to the spiritual realm of the signs or
) constellations of the zodiac." [Powell, Robert and Wolfgang Wortberg.
) "The Divine Feminine in the New Millennium: Sophia and the Signs of
) the Zodiac in Cosmic Evolution." Course description, Rudolf Steiner
) Institute brochure July 6-27 2002, p. 32.]
Walden: Interesting - let's play *spot the difference* once again. Pick a
school and look at what they tell us about eurythmy. Here is what I found
at the first school I tried. Not much about the zodiac or mirroring heaven
upon earth - might scare parents away perhaps? Read what teachers will
learn (above) and then what parents are told (below) and see if you
can...spot the difference.
From the Denver Waldorf school:
"Eurythmy began early in this century, as the dance world was undergoing a
tremendous artistic revolution, when a prospective dance student asked
Rudolf Steiner, the Austrian-born scientist, artist and philosopher, whether
a new impulse could be brought to the existing arts of movement. In answer,
Steiner developed the basic principles of eurythmy in collaboration with the
actress Marie von Sivers. During the past seventy years these extensive
indications have been developed and applied - artistically as a performing
art, in education as part of the curriculum in all Waldorf Schools, and
curatively in a special therapeutic form." Etc.
Walden: Of course we see that the occultist Steiner is once again a
"scientist, artist and philosopher." I wonder why they never add dancer,
choreographer or performing artist. Back to the game - for bonus points
and a chance at enlightenment - explanation for teachers and then for
parents...can you spot the difference?
- Walden
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 09:37:13 +0100
From: (koala noos.fr)
Subject: Re: Spot the Difference #2
)le 26/03/02 6:23, walden ? awaldenpond shaw.ca a ?crit?:
) (snip)
) Walden: Of course we see that the occultist Steiner is once again a
) "scientist, artist and philosopher." I wonder why they never add dancer,
) choreographer or performing artist.
Novelist, playwriter, singer, comedian, tap-dancer, prankster...
) Back to the game - for bonus points
Same player shoot again (dry or wet?). Steiner as a professional pinball
player?
koala.
) and a chance at enlightenment - explanation for teachers and then for
) parents...can you spot the difference?
)
) - Walden
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 679
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Anti-Semitism: Steiner's and Percedol's
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
Re: Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
RE: Re: Anti-Semitism: Steiner's and Percedol's
By Percedol netscape.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 20:22:27 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Anti-Semitism: Steiner's and Percedol's
Percedol wrote:
)Look, Diana, I don't know anything about Waldorf schools, but I have never
)seen any pressure towards anybody from the people I know, which )means that
)nobody I know talks to people about anthroposophy if there is no request or
)interest. That's how things should be.
Sharon answered beautifully but I feel so strongly about it I must
add my two cents.
No, Percedol, they don't "talk to people about anthroposophy if
there is no request or interest" - unless you count the children in Waldorf
schools.
They enroll children whose parents have not requested information about
anthroposophy or shown interest in anthroposophy (because they have usually
never heard of it) in anthroposophical schools, and once they're there they
have much more sophisticated methods than talking about it - they're
singing, dancing, acting, chanting, reciting, writing, painting, drawing,
and sculpting it.
But perhaps education is not interesting to you, either, like politics. Are
we done talking about karma, Percedol?
Diana
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 20:42:17 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure
Dan quoted:
)"Steiner's painstakingly schooled spiritual perception allowed him to
)explore spirit domains, report insights, and base suggestions for the
)conduct of practical life on his discoveries. Steiner gave the name
)"anthroposophy" to this spirit-based knowledge and he elaborated it in some
)forty books and about 6,000 lectures on topics from medicine, agriculture,
)and education, to cosmology, Christology and the arts." [Anonymous
)editorial, Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure July 6-27, 2002, inside front
)cover.]
This is why it's best to quote their own literature back to them I
guess. When the critics link examples from the "conduct of practical life"
in Waldorf schools to the "spirit-based knowledge" it is derived from, we're
derided as malicious or paranoid.
Recent examples that come to mind - Linda Clemens sneering, "Oh
beeswax and wool are occult, are they?" since this would clearly be
silly if Steiner *didn't* elaborate on the occult usefulness of beeswax and
wool. (He wrote an entire book on the occult understanding of bees.)
Neil Faiman once gave Sharon a very hard time for making what he viewed as a
*huge* leap from Steiner's prescribed spiritual color exercises to Waldorf
painting instruction (which for some odd reason suspiciously resemble one
another). Neil emerged feeling triumphant about 15 posts later because the
critics in his view failed to *prove* this with specific Steiner quotes in
which Steiner advised teachers to use *these exact exercises* with *Waldorf*
students and with Waldorf students only for *this reason* and for no other
reason. Steiner just said it was so important to experience color this way,
and Waldorf teachers just happen to try to arrange for their students
experience color this way too.
Maybe Steiner meant somebody else should use these exercises? Not the
students in the schools he set up, oh heavens no, and if students in Waldorf
schools just happen to paint exactly the way Steiner advised *somebody else*
- NOT Waldorf students - to study color for spiritual effects, it's just a
funny little coincidence.
Maybe these Waldorf teachers thought it all up on their own? Or maybe it's
just some goofy mixed-up inexperienced Waldorf teachers who go a little
crazy and actually apply *in their classrooms* the stuff they read *in their
teacher training*. Like the Rudolf Steiner Institute advises them to do . .
.
Diana
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 23:58:01 -0500
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: RE: Re: Anti-Semitism: Steiner's and Percedol's
Diana Winters (Winters_Diana hotmail.com) wrote:
No, Percedol, they don't "talk to people about anthroposophy if
there is no request or interest" - unless you count the children in Waldorf
schools.
They enroll children whose parents have not requested information about
anthroposophy or shown interest in anthroposophy (because they have usually
never heard of it) in anthroposophical schools, and once they're there they
have much more sophisticated methods than talking about it - they're
singing, dancing, acting, chanting, reciting, writing, painting, drawing,
and sculpting it.
But perhaps education is not interesting to you, either, like politics. Are
we done talking about karma, Percedol?
Diana
P%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
I said before that I am interested in topics dealing with the
after-life and spiritual disciplines. I am also interested in movies,
music, travels, science, teas, cheeses, beaches, etc. About
education, I haven't touched the topic so far. (I am aware that this
list is the wrong place for me to be.)
Anyway, since you talk about education you may know that the
daughters of the present Italian prime minister attended a waldorf
school. I think he had no trouble. Neither his daughters! One of them
partecipated in december to the ball of debutants at the Crillon
Hotel in Paris with a dress by Karl Lagerfeld. She went with the
Prince Dimitri von Thurn und Taxis (or Tasso since their castle is in
Italy).
Back to karma some badly translated quotes:
"The karma of humankind is one and develops itself through the karma
of each individual, making it more and more independent from the
collective karma"
"The more one spiritual personality evolves, the more he/she becomes
a co-operator of the karma of others"
"the consequences of karma: they go back to (?) an original sin, i.e.
the loss of a level beyond the human, that karma has the task to help
man to find it again"
"(Man) has to realize himself as the Subject of its own history, not
limit himself to be the object of destiny."
"(Man) has to deal with obstacles that are becoming (?) unexplainable
and therefore more and more difficult to be managed."
"Collective karma involves individual karma and often an individual
karma can be seen as the sacrifice of a single individual to the
community he belongs to."
Percedol
--
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------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 680
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Anti-Semitism: Steiner's and Percedol's
By koala noos.fr
RE: Re: Anti-Semitism: Steiner's and Percedol's
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
Ball gowns (was: Anti-Semitism)
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
Re: Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: Spot the Difference #2
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: Anti-Semitism: Steiner's and Percedol's
By mysplum earthlink.net
RE: Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure
By faiman jlc.net
the waldorf tradition
By pstaud hotmail.com
Re: Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure
By mysplum earthlink.net
RE: RE: Re: Anti-part I to Diana
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
RE: RE: Re: Anti-part I to Diana
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
Left-handedness and black magic
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
More on left-handedness/Jane Healey
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
Re: Galenic psychology (Phlegmatic...etc)
By mysplum earthlink.net
RE: Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure
By faiman jlc.net
Re: Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure
By Gary GoodWinter.com
Re: Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure
By mysplum earthlink.net
RE: Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure
By faiman jlc.net
RE: RE: RE: Re: Anti-part I to Diana
By Percedol netscape.net
Connecticut Waldorf Schools--New York Times
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
Re: Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
RE: RE: RE: Re: Anti-part I to Diana
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
Re: Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: Request to join Waldorf-survivors-only denied
By sandra.schlick balcab.ch
Re: Anti-part I and II to Diana
By Percedol netscape.net
Re: Request to join Waldorf-survivors-only denied
By sandra.schlick balcab.ch
subtle manipulation
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 13:14:04 +0100
From: (koala noos.fr)
Subject: Re: Anti-Semitism: Steiner's and Percedol's
)le 27/03/02 5:58, Percedol netscape.net ? Percedol netscape.net a ?crit?:
) (snip)
I made the numbering:
)1) Anyway, since you talk about education you may know that the daughters of
the
) present Italian prime minister attended a waldorf school. I think he had no
) trouble. Neither his daughters!
)2) One of them partecipated in december to the
) ball of debutants at the Crillon Hotel in Paris with a dress by Karl
) Lagerfeld. She went with the Prince Dimitri von Thurn und Taxis (or Tasso
) since their castle is in Italy).
)
) (snip)
Seeing the people and the places you refer to (very expensive and luxury
places, very well-off or wealthy people), I can understand they had no
trouble, moneywise first...
If they had had troubles, what a mess with the acquaintances of those
people!! I can understand how cautious Waldorf schools must be with such
people who could publicize their doctrine and pass it on among other very
rich personalities to hide their pedagogy behind as an intellectual "alibi".
(does the word "alibi" work with such meaning in english?).
A thing I don't understand is the relation between 1) and 2) ?
As if 2) was a necessary reason put forward like on the covers of glossy
celebrities magazines, a gossip used as a justification of any kind. You
seem to be very proud of it. Does it have anything to do with the pedagogy
currently carried out in the Waldorf schools? Or is it merely indicating how
impressed you are by showing off people?
koala.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 13:08:55 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Re: Anti-Semitism: Steiner's and Percedol's
Percedol's amusing response to my statement that anthroposophists *do* talk
about anthroposophy to people who haven't requested it (Waldorf students):
)Anyway, since you talk about education you may know that the daughters )of
)the present Italian prime minister attended a waldorf school. I )think he
)had no trouble. Neither his daughters! One of them )partecipated in
)december to the ball of debutants at the Crillon Hotel )in Paris with a
)dress by Karl Lagerfeld. She went with the Prince )Dimitri von Thurn und
)Taxis (or Tasso since their castle is in Italy).
Lovely, Percedol, I could not have asked for a goofier answer than one
commenting on the social life and fashion triumphs of the daughter of the
Italian prime minister. Thank you. Saves me time having to respond in any
serious way.
Thank you also for the karma quotes. If you wouldn't mind too much, could
you possibly give us the source? Are these Steiner quotes? Book, chapter,
article? (*Not* personalities, thanks, and not whose ball gowns they wear.)
)"The karma of humankind is one and develops itself through the karma )of
)each individual, making it more and more independent from the )collective
)karma"
Same as before, Percedol. More quotes repeating the same thing do not
further the explanation. Yeah, everything "is one" and it "develops itself"
this way. Why? How? If it continues to become "more and more" independent
from the collective karma, how does the idea of "karma of humankind"
continue to mean anything? How could one determine, either for oneself or
someone else (say, a Waldorf teacher trying to decide whether to intervene
in a bullying situation), whether the karma of the people involved is still
part of the collective, or if a particular individuals' karma has started to
become independent?
)"The more one spiritual personality evolves, the more he/she becomes a
) )co-operator of the karma of others"
This in particular I really want to know whether it's Steiner. If so, it is
very useful. It would go a long way toward explaining the attitude of some
Waldorf teachers. Some clearly believe their "spiritual personalities" are
more evolved than most people's, and this would boost their sense of
themselves as rightful guardians ("co-operators") of the karma of the
children entrusted to them. Pretty heady stuff, "co-operating" in other
people's karma.
)"the consequences of karma: they go back to (?) an original sin, i.e. )the
)loss of a level beyond the human, that karma has the task to help )man to
)find it again"
Again is it Steiner? PLEASE give source. Where does he talk about original
sin? Very interesting because it almost sounds like karma itself has a karma
(a "task"). Will we be done with karma some day when this task is completed
(and we have arisen beyond the level of human)?
Will karma "wither away" like the state in Marxism?!
)"(Man) has to realize himself as the Subject of its own history, not )limit
)himself to be the object of destiny."
)"(Man) has to deal with obstacles that are becoming (?) unexplainable )and
)therefore more and more difficult to be managed."
What the heck's this about? What are these obstacles? Taking this as an
answer to my own question above, it doesn't sound like we'll be done with
karma any time soon.
)"Collective karma involves individual karma and often an individual )karma
)can be seen as the sacrifice of a single individual to the )community he
)belongs to."
Might explain why scapegoating is not exactly frowned on in Waldorf
classrooms. The picked-on kids are making a sacrifice to the group? Perhaps
the bully is working out his "individual" karma, which has become
independent of the group, and those he is picking on are not evolved enough
to escape the "collective" karma?
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 13:43:47 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Ball gowns (was: Anti-Semitism)
Koala to Percedol:
)Or is it merely indicating how impressed you are by showing off people?
Perhaps I should not have been so hasty to dismiss Percedol's society gossip
argument.
The critics can respond by doing a statistical analysis of the ball gowns
worn by Waldorf graduates vs. the ball gowns worn by non-Waldorf graduates -
of similar socioeconomic status, of course (perhaps comparing the daughters
of all the prime ministers of Europe, and tossing in the Bush twins). We can
check the dollar values of these gowns, or perhaps rank them by how many
positive mentions of the dresses can be found in the society pages of the
newspapers. Perhaps a handsomeness or social status scale could be developed
for comparing the men they date as well.
This would be easier and more fun than poring over dull statistics about
reading and math test scores. Oh, whoops, I forgot we don't have any of
those for Waldorf graduates anyway. Let's go with the ball gowns then. :)
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
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http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 09:25:26 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure
on 3/26/02 12:42 PM, Diana Winters at Winters_Diana hotmail.com wrote:
)
) Recent examples that come to mind - Linda Clemens sneering, "Oh
) beeswax and wool are occult, are they?" since this would clearly be
) silly if Steiner *didn't* elaborate on the occult usefulness of beeswax and
) wool. (He wrote an entire book on the occult understanding of bees.)
Sharon: There's a long tradition of wax use in magic.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 10:26:06 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Spot the Difference #2
on 3/25/02 9:23 PM, walden at awaldenpond shaw.ca wrote:
)
) Walden: Interesting - let's play *spot the difference* once again. Pick a
) school and look at what they tell us about eurythmy. Here is what I found
) at the first school I tried. Not much about the zodiac or mirroring heaven
) upon earth - might scare parents away perhaps? Read what teachers will
) learn (above) and then what parents are told (below) and see if you
) can...spot the difference.
Sharon: You bet they would scare parents like me away! Yes I can spot the
difference, (although in days gone by when I had no knowledge of Steiner's
occultism, I would not have played this game very well) now I love this game
because I can win...Here's what the crooked, brochure that lured my family
into the magical mystery school said about Eurythmy...
"The high school student can realize this vision of adulthood in the teacher
who is clearly an expert through having devoted himself to the mastery of
his subject, to the logic in mathematics, to the control of hand and
sharpening of eye in metal-work and wood carving, or to the development of
bodily grace, control and expression in eurythmy and gymnastics" (9 Rudolf
Steiner Waldorf Education, The Robinsonwood Press, Steiner School Fellowship
1989.)
On page 12 it says, "Eurythmy is an important part of the Waldorf
curriculum".
As far as I can tell at a quick glance, this is all that is mentioned about
Eurythmy in the scam of a brochure/booklet. When I asked about Eurythmy, I
was told that it is "a form of dance".
Here's more on Eurythmy, Steiner's ritual magic system which will supposedly
connect the participant with spiritual beings in the cosmos, the beings of
the zodiac and other beings like gnomes, undines, sylphs, angels etc.
Steiner's Eurythmy has Cabalistic, Hermetic, Neoplatonist, Rosicrucian,
Theosophical roots. It is similar in many ways to the ritual magic system
used by the Order of the Golden Dawn. Steiner believed that man is a
microcosm spoken from the macrocosm. Speech and tones, (think of God
creating the world by speaking) have a formative relationship with the
structure and organs of the physical body. The Cabalists were the first to
connect man to Hebrew letters because Hebrew letters were considered great
and powerful magic since God spoke Hebrew when he created the world. Like
Paracelcus, and many other occultists in history, Steiner, inspired by the
Cabalists, matched up organs to beings in the solar system, and worked out a
system of magic in which tones, speech, words of power, letters of power,
gestures, numerology, the zodiac, planetary forces, etc. connected man the
microcosm to the beings in the solar system and galaxy. Eurythmy is powerful
magic that can heal...
"In cases of specific illnesses, therefore, the organ affected can be
reached by the reiterated practise of specific speech sounds and rhythms.
But such exercises, like medicines, should be at first prescribed by a
physician before they are carried out by a curative eurythmist. And the
curative eurythmist, like the teacher of Eurythmy, should first be trained
in Eurythmy as an art" (26 Eurythmy and the Impulse of Dance, by Marjorie
Raffe, Cecil Hardwood, Marguerite Lungren, Rudolf Steiner Press 1974).
Sharon: Laughing my head off...'cause laughter is the best
medicine...Eurythmy is an *art* of magic. The practioner, or "physician" as
they call him is an *Anthroposophical doctor* in the tradition of medieval
Rosicrucian doctors who spread their occult truths wherever they went. The
Anthroposophical doctor is highly trained in Steiner's version of
numerology,the forces of planetary being, zodiacal beings and their
connection to man's organs, powers of beings that live in color, star magic
known as Solomon's key, alchemy, etc.....they should print that in their
brochures don't ya think?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 11:08:58 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Anti-Semitism: Steiner's and Percedol's
)) le 27/03/02 5:58, Percedol netscape.net ? Percedol netscape.net a ?crit?:
)
)) 2) One of them partecipated in december to the
)) ball of debutants at the Crillon Hotel in Paris with a dress by Karl
)) Lagerfeld. She went with the Prince Dimitri von Thurn und Taxis (or Tasso
)) since their castle is in Italy).
Sharon: Are you implying that Waldorf failed at properly educating this
child in the Waldorf way by instilling environmental values? Or are you
subtly reminding us that this Waldorf scam is really all about money and
power? Is Prince Dimitri a Rosicrucian? Did you know that Rosicrucians swore
an oath to protect the monarchy? Did you know that there is all sorts of
esoteric mumbo jumbo connecting and underlying various royalty in the world?
An esoteric belief system that helps them justify their positions?
Your post brings Prince Charles (Anthro at heart) to mind. He is all
self-righteous about the environment when he is in fact one of the major
perpetrators of waste! He sends his driver with one of his gas guzzlers from
England across to another country to pick him up after his holiday on his
luxury gas guzzling yacht while he heats his various castles and houses
scattered here and there. I bet he uses more of the worlds resources in one
day than most humans in the world use in a year.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 16:04:49 +0000
From: Neil Faiman (faiman jlc.net)
Subject: RE: Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure
I haven't been paying much attention to this list recently, but I was
skimming this post from Diana and my name jumped out at me.
Diana Winters wrote:
) ...
)
) Neil Faiman once gave Sharon a very hard time for making what he viewed
) as a
) *huge* leap from Steiner's prescribed spiritual color exercises to
) Waldorf
) painting instruction (which for some odd reason suspiciously resemble
) one
) another). Neil emerged feeling triumphant about 15 posts later because
) the
) critics in his view failed to *prove* this with specific Steiner quotes
) in
) which Steiner advised teachers to use *these exact exercises* with
) *Waldorf*
) students and with Waldorf students only for *this reason* and for no
) other
) reason. Steiner just said it was so important to experience color this
) way,
) and Waldorf teachers just happen to try to arrange for their students
) experience color this way too.
)
) ...
Perhaps Diana has a better memory (or a better archive) than I do, but
this story didn't ring true to me, so I went back and searched, and I
was able to find exacgtly *one* mail message from myself that had
anything to do with Sharon and color. That was a four sentence critique
of a passage from a previous message of Sharon's. In fact, here it is
in its entirety:
) [quote from Sharon elided]
)
) Your "other words" here seem to have nothing to do with the passage that
) you
) claim to be paraphrasing. The Steiner passage is describing an exercise
) in
) visualization, not an exercise in observation. It says nothing at all
) about
) "looking at color."
)
) [quote from Sharon elided]
)
) Is this your opinion, your opinion of Steiner's opinion, or your opinion
) of
) some teacher's opinion?
That's it. If Diana can provide the other 14 posts, the very hard time
that I gave Sharon, my expressions of triumph, or any of the other
elements that she has attributed to me, I would welcome the opportunity
to have my memory refreshed. Otherwise, I would welcome a retraction
and apology.
Regards,
Neil Faiman
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 11:27:46 -0600
From: "Peter Staudenmaier" (pstaud hotmail.com)
Subject: the waldorf tradition
)you may know that the daughters of the present Italian prime minister
) )attended a waldorf school. I think he had no trouble. Neither his
) )daughters! One of them partecipated in december to the ball of )debutants
)at the Crillon Hotel in Paris with a dress by Karl )Lagerfeld. She went
)with the Prince Dimitri von Thurn und Taxis (or )Tasso since their castle
)is in Italy).
Ah, the Waldorf tradition: catering to reactionary industrialists and
aristocrats since 1919.......
Peter S.
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 12:53:07 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure
on 3/27/02 8:04 AM, Neil Faiman at faiman jlc.net wrote:
)) Is this your opinion, your opinion of Steiner's opinion, or your opinion
)) of
)) some teacher's opinion?
Sharon: Steiner's opinion! Well, well, well...look who came out of the
woodwork. Congratulations Diana for catching Neil's attention, as I'd really
like to finish my little conversation about devoting oneself to color that
we began so long ago. Diana, I don't think it's necessary for you to
apologize to Neil, instead just post your lovely discovery from the rabbi
(which has everything to do with the topic at hand). Since our last little
chat Neil, I have learned even more about Steiner and color. Welcome back
ol' chap nice to hear from you! Here's a nice juicy quote for you from your
mystagogue who was lecturing upstairs in the Stuttgart House to his
devotees. Downstairs, underneath the Stuttgart House, unbeknown to many of
his run-of-the-mill devotees, lay Steiner's Rosicrucian temple with red and
blue walls meant only for the gaze and devotion of the very spiritually
advanced. Here's what Steiner said upstairs about colour...one can only
wonder what was said downstairs...
Steiner speaking on 15 October 1911: "You will best realize the significance
of colour if we describe how it affects the occultist. For this it is
necessary that a person should free himself completely from everything else
and devote himself to the particular colour, immerse himself in it. If the
person devoting himself to the colour which covers these physically dense
walls were one who had made certain occult progress, it would come about
that after a period of this complete devotion the walls would disappear from
his clairvoyant vision; the consciousness that the walls shut off the outer
world would vanish. Now, what appears first is not merely that he sees the
neighboring houses outside, that the walls become like glass, but in the
sphere which opens up there is a world of purely spiritual phenomena;
spiritual facts and spiritual figures become visible. We need only reflect
that behind everything around us physically there are spiritual beings and
facts. That which lies at the foundation of the physical objects outside
becomes in a certain way visible; but what becomes visible is not the same
if there are different surroundings. The worlds which surround us
spiritually are of many kinds, many different kinds of elementary beings are
around us. These are not closed in boxes or in such a state that they live
in various houses. The law of impenetrability applies only to the physical
world; penetrability is the law for the higher worlds. But they cannot all
be seen in the same way; according to the capacity of clairvoyant vision,
there may be visible and invisible beings in the same space. What spiritual
beings become visible in any particular instance depends on the colour to
which we devote ourselves".
(Fletcher, John. Art Inspired by Rudolf Steiner, Mercury Arts Publications
1987 p 95).
Sharon: Hope you paid special note to the last sentence quoted!
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 16:37:40 -0500
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: RE: RE: Re: Anti-part I to Diana
Diana Winters (Winters_Diana hotmail.com) wrote:
))"The more one spiritual personality evolves, the more he/she becomes a
)) )co-operator of the karma of others"
)
)This in particular I really want to know whether it's Steiner. If so, it is
)very useful. It would go a long way toward explaining the attitude of some
)Waldorf teachers. Some clearly believe their "spiritual personalities" are
)more evolved than most people's, and this would boost their sense of
)themselves as rightful guardians ("co-operators") of the karma of the
)children entrusted to them. Pretty heady stuff, "co-operating" in other
)people's karma.
No, but there is an example I like. You probably saw the Walt Disney
movie "Pollyanna" http://us.imdb.com/Title?0054195. Pollyanna is an
example of a unconscious co-operator for her community. With her
positive attitude she helps the people of her town to solve their
karma. She takes their karma on herself, and eventually she pays for
them. She sacrifices herself for the good of the others, to make that
community evolve.
_________________________
Another example is the magus of Strovolos (see the books by Kiriakos
Markides). He was a healer from Cyprus who helped and cured many
people. He did not accept money. But he did not just heal people, he
was also taking the karma related to the disease upon himself and
worked innerly to solve it. It was not always successful (in solving
karma, not in healing), and he often had serious health problems. He
helped by uptaking karma of others.
Percedol
--
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 12:30:39 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure
I wrote:
)Neil Faiman once gave Sharon a very hard time for making what he viewed as
)a *huge* leap from Steiner's prescribed spiritual color exercises to
)Waldorf painting instruction
Neil:
)If Diana can provide the other 14 posts, the very hard time
)that I gave Sharon, my expressions of triumph, or any of the other
)elements that she has attributed to me, I would welcome the opportunity to
)have my memory refreshed. Otherwise, I would welcome a retraction and
)apology.
Well, doing a little searching around in the January 2001 archive, I find I
must heartily apologize that I said there were 15 posts. Nowhere close. You
apparently gave up much more quickly than I remembered. I don't think I need
to apologize for saying you gave Sharon a "hard time."
I had continued that argument, rather than Sharon, which is why it stuck in
my mind. For anyone interested, the substance of the argument (as opposed to
who felt triumphant), was that Neil pointed out to Sharon that a Steiner
quote she had posted advised "visualization" of colors in order to achieve
spiritual progress, rather than "observation" of colors.
I believed Neil was implying (note I say "I believed he was implying" rather
than "he said," lest I be asked to submit a post from the archive with these
exact words) that since visualization and observation are not the same
thing, and children painting in Waldorf are not asked to "visualize" in
their minds but rather to observe colors they have actually painted, this,
for Neil, seemed to call into question the connection Sharon was making.
Encouraging small children to "visualize" colors is difficult, whereas
having them paint and observe the colors is enjoyable and easily implemented
in the classroom - in short, keeps them busy and entertained while
accomplishing the same thing. If you ask them to meditate, kids will be
talking and pinching each other and having to go to the bathroom. The
painting activity is the obvious adaptation of Steiner's color meditations
for children. Steiner defenders here would like us to believe that the
apparent correlations between Steiner's "indications" and activities in
Steiner classrooms are a chance, random thing that cannot be proved, one of
life's little synchronicities I guess.
It's a stretch, Neil. You can have the point if you want it - take two terms
with very close meanings, practically speaking, and imply that the slight
differences completely invalidate the other person's argument when you know
that they do not.
(It's called getting off on a technicality. Like making sure everyone knows
there were not 15 posts, only a couple.)
Diana
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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 12:37:52 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: RE: Re: Anti-part I to Diana
I asked Percedol (about some quotes):
)This in particular I really want to know whether it's Steiner.
And Percedol responded by describing two movies to me.
Is that really your answer? You really refuse give the source of the quotes,
or even confirm whether they're Steiner quotes?
Diana
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 14:00:12 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Left-handedness and black magic
Here is some possible insight into why Waldorf teachers, unlike any others
today, continue to feel left-handed children need to be forced to write with
their right hands. This is from Uncle Taz's (Tarjei Straume's) page:
http://www.uncletaz.com/hubbstein.html
A brief summary if you don't wish to read the whole excerpt:
Right-handedness is associated with white magic, left-handed with black
magic. With right-handedness, we have moral purity, advanced moral and
spiritual development, selflessness, patience, endurance, and association
with the "Christ impulse." With left-handedness, you have . . . the opposite
of all that. The right-handed initiate has spent many lifetimes getting
there, so I guess it seems actually charitable to try to help lefties along
a bit on their spiritual path by switching their handedness.
Here's what Uncle Taz has to say:
************************************************************************
'Left-handed' and 'right-handed' are technical terms borrowed from Western
occultism . . .
Western occult tradition speaks of a right-handed and a left-handed
occultism, which means, strictly speaking, white and black magic. The
right-handed path, which it is called, is an extremely difficult and
time-consuming approach, requiring enormous patience and endurance. It is
based upon the moral purification of body, soul and spirit and the
cultivation of total harmlessness and unconditional selfless love toward all
living creatures. Because of the very lofty and difficult demands the
candidate must make upon himself, it takes many life-times, or incarnations,
to develop such spiritual-moral capacities to the point of intitiation, or
modern clairvoyance.
All religions and idealistic philosophies that foster and encourage
qualities of this kind, contribute to the preparation for a right-handed
initiatory development.
According to Rudolf Steiner, such a right-handed occult development, or
initiatory path, is entirely dependent upon the Christ-impulse . . .
. . . I have ponted out that Western occult tradition speaks of a
right-handed and a left-handed occultism, which is equivalent to white and
black magic. I also explained that the right-handed path is based upon very
demanding and time-consuming moral purification of body, soul and spirit and
the cultivation of total harmlessness and unconditional selfless love toward
all living creatures.
Throughout Rudolf Steiner's life and work, it becomes clear that this was
the path and the method which he himself had chosen. But 'der Doktor' also
gave some very interesting descriptions of left-handed occultism, or black
magic . . .
A right-handed occultist, who is cultivating the power of selfless love for
all creatures, . . .
The black magician, or the left-handed occultist, seeks to strengthen the
power of egoism. (etc.)
************************************************************************
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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 14:09:03 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: More on left-handedness/Jane Healey
I got to thinking about the left-handed thing in Waldorf again because I
noticed a book by Jane Healey on raising left-handed children in the
bookstore. Jane Healey, for those who don't know, is an author Waldorf folks
love to cite because she believes computers are not appropriate for small
children.
She doesn't have any association with Waldorf, however, and I couldn't help
wondering what Healey would think of teachers in this day and age attempting
to force lefties to switch. I perused the book and couldn't even find any
mention of dealing with teachers who think left-handedness is a problem.
Lefties do still run into problems, and the book is full of practical advice
on seating arrangements, tools and utensils, and enlightening people who
don't realize that left-handedness might make things difficult. Apparently
she assumes there is really no chance anymore of running into anyone, let
alone a teacher, who would hold the medieval notion that left-handedness is
some sort of moral weakness or mark of spiritual failings that should be
remedied by force.
Diana
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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 09:39:55 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Galenic psychology (Phlegmatic...etc)
Sharon: Some people think that when you send your kids to Waldorf it's a
step back in time to Laura Ingall Wilder days, then there are those of us
who insist that Waldorf is a medieval mystery school...now I'm starting to
think it's more like 3rd century BCE! A few days ago I posted some work by
Francis Yates on Galenic psychology, which most of you probably didn't read,
but I found it to be fascinating. Galen was a Roman physician from the 3rd
century BCE who based his work on Aristotlean speculations. His work was
standard up until the first half of the 16th century when the first
dissections of humans were undertaken. Galen came up with the four humours
after studying Aristotle. Later in the Middle Ages, the Rosicrucian Robert
Fludd and others like Paracelsus still maintained Galen's ideas. Galen
locked man's psychology in the cosmos with his simple little scheme of the
four humours, also known as the four temperaments. Astrology determined
whether you were one of the four human types. If you were born when Saturn
ruled you were doomed to be "melancholic" and you would live a sad, pathetic
life with the lowest of low jobs. Many of us Waldorf critics have had an odd
little Waldorf moment when our children or someone else's children were
classified by a Waldorf teacher as phlegmatic, melancholic, sanguine or
choleric. (There is an article on the PLANS site called "The Phlegmatic Sits
by the Window" which you might like to read). I remember raising my eyebrow
when I heard mutterings of such things, it seemed very out dated, and boy is
it outdated! Here I was thinking that Steiner was stuck in the middle ages,
but when it comes to the four humours we're talking 3 BCE! LOL! Here's Galen
via Steiner:
Steiner: "Now strangely enough, there exists in the Elementary World a
mysterious relationship between the aforesaid four elements and the four
temperaments, between the melancholic temperament and the element of
"earth", between the phlegmatic temperament and the element of "water",
between the sanguine temperament and the element of "air", and between the
choleric temperament and the element of "fire". This relationship is
expressed in the fact that the choleric man has a stronger inclination to
merge with beings in the "fire" of the Elementary World than with the
others; the sanguine man is more inclined to merge with the beings living in
the element of "air"; and the phlegmatic man with the beings living in the
elements of "water"; and the melancholic man with the beings living in the
element of "earth" (Steiner, Rudolf. Macrocosm and Microcosm, Rudolf Steiner
Press lecture from 1910).
More about Galen: He knew nothing about the circulation of the blood. He
said the "vital spirits of the blood, which dwell in the left ventricle of
the heart, are transformed in the brain by the pneuma, the breath of spirit,
into animal spirits". He said that blood flows via invisible pores in the
wall that separates the two ventricles. He taught that the Holy Spirit is
assimilated through the human system of vessels and stored in the left
ventricle and the brain. (Very "Steineresque")
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 15:02:20 +0000
From: Neil Faiman (faiman jlc.net)
Subject: RE: Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure
Diana Winters wrote:
) ...
)
) (It's called getting off on a technicality. Like making sure everyone
) knows there were not 15 posts, only a couple.)
Diana,
Fourteen months ago I wrote this *one* mail message:
) [quote from Sharon elided]
)
) Your "other words" here seem to have nothing to do with the passage
) that you claim to be paraphrasing. The Steiner passage is describing
) an exercise in visualization, not an exercise in observation. It says
) nothing at all about "looking at color."
)
) [quote from Sharon elided]
)
) Is this your opinion, your opinion of Steiner's opinion, or your
) opinion of some teacher's opinion?
Here is how you described this message yesterday:
) Neil Faiman once gave Sharon a very hard time for making what he viewed
) as a
) *huge* leap from Steiner's prescribed spiritual color exercises to
) Waldorf
) painting instruction (which for some odd reason suspiciously resemble
) one
) another). Neil emerged feeling triumphant about 15 posts later because
) the
) critics in his view failed to *prove* this with specific Steiner quotes
) in
) which Steiner advised teachers to use *these exact exercises* with
) *Waldorf*
) students and with Waldorf students only for *this reason* and for no
) other
) reason. Steiner just said it was so important to experience color this
) way,
) and Waldorf teachers just happen to try to arrange for their students
) experience color this way too.
If you really think that that is a fair description of my message, and
that my taking exception to it is "getting off on a technicality", then
I guess that there's not much more that I can (or would want to) say.
) It's a stretch, Neil. You can have the point if you want it - take two
) terms
) with very close meanings, practically speaking, and imply that the
) slight
) differences completely invalidate the other person's argument when you
) know
) that they do not.
To me, it's a stretch to imply that a spiritual meditation exercise for
adults in which the meditator calls up the mental image of a flower, and
then imagines removing all other attributes of the flower, leaving
behind only the color, is essentially the same thing as having children
do single-color watercolor paintings. To me, the "suspicious
resemblance" between the meditation exercise and the watercolor painting
seems far-fetched. But if you believe that this is just a matter of "two
terms with very close meanings, practically speaking", with only "slight
differences", then I don't expect to change your mind.
In fact, I'm not even interested in trying to change your mind. I have
as little to do with this mailing list as I can these days -- I find
being called a liar emotionally wearing, and I usually have other
interests in my life than debating fine points of Steinerian esoterica
(which is why I made my point and then dropped it 14 months ago). The
only reason I posted yesterday was to correct a gratuitous and (in my
perhaps hypersensitive opinion) derogatory falsehood.
Regards,
Neil Faiman
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 10:32:52 -0500
From: Gary Bonhiver (gary goodwinter.com)
Subject: Re: Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure
on 2/25/02 10:02 AM, Neil Faiman at faiman jlc.net wrote:
) Diana Winters wrote:
)) ...
Neil, you might want to check your date/time on your computer. It appears
that you are a little over a month behind!
...Gary
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 10:11:25 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure
on 3/28/02 4:30 AM, Diana Winters at Winters_Diana hotmail.com wrote:
)
) It's a stretch, Neil. You can have the point if you want it - take two terms
) with very close meanings, practically speaking, and imply that the slight
) differences completely invalidate the other person's argument when you know
) that they do not.
Sharon: It's not a stretch at all, it's the same thing. You can't divorce
one from the other in Steiner's philosophy. Color is color whether on a
flower, the walls or water color paper. Devote yourself to color and you
will see spiritual beings. Devote yourself to transparent washes on the
classroom walls and you will see spirit beings. Devote yourself to the color
on a flower, separate the color off from the flower, and you will see spirit
beings that look like the transparent spirits that children paint. (Opaque
beings are lower entities which is why children don't paint them). Depending
on which color you devote yourself to depends on which beings you will see.
Steiner: "We may now ask: what happens if one is not clairvoyant? That which
the clairvoyant does consciously is done unconsciously by the etheric body
of a person not clairvoyantly trained; it enters a certain relationship with
the same beings.
The consequence of this is nothing less than that, according to our
surroundings, we come in touch with one or another kind of spiritual being.
Now further, it is a case of being able to establish a favorable or
unfavorable connection with the beings that surround us. Let us suppose that
we use a colour for the room which brings us into connection with beings who
disturb us in what we do in this room, then the colour is unfavorable.
Conversely our etheric body may be assisted by spiritual beings by using the
corresponding colour; this then of course is favourable. (...) The colour
surrounding us here brings us in touch with beings in our spiritual
environment who come to help us in our etheric body in the spiritual
activities which we need in order to work up spiritual truths within us".
(95, Steiner, lecture from 1911, Art Inspired by Rudolf Steiner, John
Fletcher, Mercury Arts Press 1987).
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 15:50:58 +0000
From: Neil Faiman (faiman jlc.net)
Subject: RE: Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure
Gary Bonhiver wrote:
) on 2/25/02 10:02 AM, Neil Faiman at faiman jlc.net wrote:
)
) ) Diana Winters wrote:
) )) ...
)
)
) Neil, you might want to check your date/time on your computer. It
) appears
) that you are a little over a month behind!
)
) ...Gary
Only problem is, that message was posted through the Topica web
interface, not via e-mail. If there's a date/time problem, it would
have to be at the Topica server. But I'd guess that this is the same
problem we encountered last year, where Topica sends out mail from its
web interface with a really weird ordering on the SMTP mail headers,
which apparently confuses the Outlook Express for Macintosh mail reader.
If you still have the date-time fixup AppleScript that I posted last
year, you might try applying it to the messages with the weird date, and
see if that fixes them. If it doesn't, you might want to contact
Topica.
-Neil
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 11:23:56 -0500
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: RE: RE: RE: Re: Anti-part I to Diana
Diana Winters (Winters_Diana hotmail.com) wrote:
)
)I asked Percedol (about some quotes):
)
))This in particular I really want to know whether it's Steiner.
)
)And Percedol responded by describing two movies to me.
)
)Is that really your answer? You really refuse give the source of the quotes,
)or even confirm whether they're Steiner quotes?
)Diana
P%%%%%%%%%%%%
Why is it so important for you to know who wrote that? I am trying to
understand. Does knowing the author trigger a different kind of
evaluation of the content? Would not you be able to consider a
content independently from the author, per se? At least as a start.
I did it several times. I see a book, but don't know the author. Read
here and there trying to decide if it's something deriving from
spiritual vision or not.
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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 01:36:54 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Connecticut Waldorf Schools--New York Times
New York Times, March 26, 2000, Sunday
CONNECTICUT WEEKLY DESK
Different Teaching Method Attracts Parents
By ADAM BOWLES (NYT) 1646 words
THE math work sheets seemed so sterile, the nightly ''ABC'' chants
ridiculous. But what finally convinced Cheryl Roberts to remove her
daughter from the local public school and enroll her in a small
Waldorf school was a complaint her kindergarten daughter made about
class assignments.
''The night I put my daughter to bed and she said, 'Mommy my brain
hurts. I'm dumb,' was the night I said enough,'' recalled Ms.
Roberts, 37, of Redding. ''This 5-year-old was having her self esteem
crushed and for what? Property values, frankly. And for fourth-grade
mastery tests.''
Relatively unknown in Connecticut, the Waldorf system of education,
based on the philosophy of Rudolf Steiner of Austria, is steadily
attracting parents like Ms. Roberts to its schools around the world
despite criticism from a California group about the way children are
taught.
There are more than 600 Waldorf primary and secondary schools in more
than 32 countries serving about 120,000 students, according to the
Association of Waldorf Schools of North America in Fair Oaks, Calif.
It said that in North America, there are about 150 Waldorf schools,
up from 65 in 1991. There are two in Connecticut, with a total of
about 110 students.
Housatonic Valley School in Newtown opened in 1989 and began a grade
school in 1995. It is the only school in the state certified by the
Waldorf association. There are 8 teachers and 75 students in
preschool through sixth grade.
Laura McDonald, the school's early childhood development coordinator,
said there will be up to 60 additional students next school year once
the early childhood program expands and a seventh grade is added.
Tuition is $6,800 a year at the grade school.
The Linden Hill School in Wilton follows the Waldorf system, which is
named after the cigarette company that financed the first Steiner
schools in 1919 in Germany. Linden Hill is now seeking certification
from the Waldorf association. The private, nonprofit school added a
first grade this year and plans to eventually expand to eight grades
as children complete each year. There are 35 students and tuition is
$7,500.
Torin Fraser, a director at Antioch/New England Waldorf Teacher
Training Program in Keene, N.H., said there are 200 graduates from
Waldorf teacher schools around the country. At Antioch, where the
majority of New England Waldorf teachers are trained, there are 80
students, compared to 12 when it first opened in 1982.
''It's growing rapidly,'' Mr. Fraser said. ''But Connecticut has been
one of the last New England states to take off.''
Neither school in the state has sought approval from the State
Department of Education, a voluntary process, or is registered among
the 90 schools listed as members of the Connecticut Association of
Independent Schools. Sheila Brown, the nonpublic schools coordinator
for the education department, said the state hasn't received any
complaints about the schools.
''The nonpublic schools in Connecticut represent a wide range of
philosophies and visions for education,'' Ms. Brown said. ''Waldorf
schools would not be denied state approval because of its mission.''
One of the harshest critics of the Waldorf system is the People for
Legal and Nonsectarian Schools, a nonprofit group in California that
has filed a federal lawsuit against two California school districts
for using public money to fund Waldorf schools.
''Rudolf Steiner's theory of childhood development is based on
clairvoyant experiences with the spiritual world,'' Dan Dugan, the
group's secretary, said. ''It basically ignores everything that has
ever been known about child development since 1920.''
Waldorf schools stress creativity and freethinking. Mr. Steiner, who
died in 1925, was the founder of anthroposophy, which means human
wisdom, and holds that people can investigate spiritual worlds and
uncover hidden realities through study and observation. Followers
said some of those realities are found in medicine and agriculture.
It was also the method that contributed to Mr. Steiner's view of
child development, which forms the basis of Waldorf education. He
believed that people experience a type of reincarnation every seven
years, beginning with the physical birth and ending at age 21, when
the spirit of a human being is fully developed and continually
reincarnated on earth. Certain subjects are taught at times that he
thought best coincided with these changes.
The differences between Waldorf schools and other educational systems
are noticeable early. Unlike public schools, where there is a trend
to develop full-day kindergarten programs to make time for reading
instruction, there is no academic content in Waldorf kindergartens.
In fact, reading is not taught until second or third grade, though
the letters are introduced in first and second grades. Supporters
believe children must first master oral communication.
In Waldorf elementary schools, students have the same main teacher
for eight years. Art, music, gardening, and foreign languages are
considered central to education. In first through fifth grade,
children do not use textbooks, but rather produce workbooks with
records of their experiences. They are given evaluations, not grades.
Students celebrate the changing of the seasons, practice eurythmy, a
form a dance that supporters said helps students connect with the
rhythms of nature, use watercolors as a means to control aggression,
and are encouraged to avoid TV.
This educational philosophy appealed to Ms. Roberts.
She, her husband, William, and their two children, moved from
Washington, D.C. to Connecticut in 1997 to enroll their children in
what they considered to be a safer public school system.
But Ms. Roberts remained dissatisfied.
''I felt the public schools were really driven by test scores,'' she
said. ''That seemed to be the only measure of success. There are
better ways to teach than with just a work sheet. There's more to a
person than just a brain.''
Ms. Roberts organized four couples who were also dissatisfied to
spend three weeks searching alternatives. Most of the private schools
the couples checked into stressed pure academics.
Ms. Roberts wanted something for her children's heart and soul. She
said she found that in the kindergarten at what eventually became the
Linden Hill School.
Instead of cinder block walls, she found wood floors, silk curtains,
natural wooden toys and muted pastel colors painted on the walls. It
was beautiful and she was captivated.
In the end, three of the couples decided to send their children to
Waldorf schools.
Mr. Dugan also thought he had found the perfect match for his son
when he enrolled him in a sixth-grade class at a Waldorf school in
San Francisco in 1987. He was attracted to the school because of the
dedication of the teachers and the integration of arts into the
curriculum, but became increasingly disturbed by some of the
teachings.
He started asking questions. Why do teachers insist white light can
not be refracted into colors? Why don't they consider the heart to be
a pump? Why do they teach that there are 12 senses related to the
signs of the zodiac?
He wanted to reform the curriculum, but instead he said his family
was thrown out.
Mr. Dugan formed the People for Legal and Nonsectarian Schools, a
coalition of 36 people whose goal is to fight Waldorf education from
being established in public schools. Marianne Alsop, managing editor
of a magazine produced by the Waldorf association, said there are
nine public schools around the country where the Waldorf method is
used.
While he acknowledged that private Waldorf schools like those in
Connecticut do not violate the United States Constitution, Mr. Dugan
said parents often are unaware of what he said was the occultist
belief system that forms the basis of learning for their children.
Mr. Dugan said private schools have a right to teach students
whatever they deem fit, but he said parents are led to believe
anthroposophy is not an in issue in the classroom. Waldorf supporters
said their schools do not teach religion.
At Antioch, the Waldorf teaching program shares a building with the
Center for Anthroposophy and teachers are required to learn all about
Rudolf Steiner.
Mr. Fraser, author of School is a Journey, a book about his
experiences teaching a Waldorf class from first to eighth grade,
describes most Waldorf parents as progressive, not religious. He also
said Mr. Steiner is an exemplary man, particularly in education.
''He is an amazing person, outstanding thinker,'' Mr. Fraser, 44,
said, ''but he can be challenging to read.''
If taken out of context, Steiner's writings can appear to be
''problematic'' and ''weird,'' Mr. Fraser said.
Heidi Greene, who in 1993 started the Waldorf-inspired preschool from
which the Linden Hill School sprang, said although she does not
practice all of Mr. Steiner's beliefs, she considered Waldorf
education to be a beautiful way for a child to begin to learn.
But unlike many Waldorf supporters, Ms. Greene, 43, said some of Mr.
Steiner's views on education should be adaptable to more modern
theories of education.
''I was not able to completely embrace a Waldorf life style,'' Ms.
Greene said. ''I believe in incorporating what is new and good with
Steiner philosophy.''
Fran Scharf, president of the Redding Elementary School P.T.A., said
she only knows about Waldorf schools in general terms, but supported
the concept.
''It is good that those schools exist,'' Ms. Scharf said. ''I think
we should be offering varying forms of education so we as parents can
find what works best for our children. One model does not fit every
child.''
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 03:18:25 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure
Neil:
)Fourteen months ago I wrote this *one* mail message:
Ok, Neil, you can split hairs, I can too. I said you "emerged feeling
triumphant about 15 posts later." The "feeling triumphant" part may have
been incorrect as I can't know for sure how you felt about things. However,
I did not say *you* wrote 15 posts. The thread, in my memory, which may have
been wrong, went on for awhile, and involved several different people. (Or
maybe I just stewed about it for several days, doesn't matter to this silly
argument.) - Sorry, but if you want to win points arguing this way, I can do
it too.
)It's a stretch, Neil. You can have the point if you want it - take two
)terms with very close meanings, practically speaking, and imply that )the
)slight differences completely invalidate the other person's )argument when
)you know that they do not.
(Incidentally Sharon, I didn't mean *you* were stretching, I meant Neil
was.)
Neil:
)To me, it's a stretch to imply that a spiritual meditation exercise )for
)adults in which the meditator calls up the mental image of a )flower, and
)then imagines removing all other attributes of the flower, )leaving behind
)only the color, is essentially the same thing as having )children do
)single-color watercolor paintings.
I'm not implying that, I'm saying that directly. These are two ways of
meditating on color. Any W. kindergarten teacher will tell you the painting
is for the purpose of "living into" the color, "experiencing" the color,
"having a color experience," or similar language. (That's why they are to
avoid painting images or shapes or patterns. Everything but the color is
stripped away, as Steiner advises adults to do in their minds.) Where's the
stretch?
)To me, the "suspicious resemblance" between the meditation exercise )and
)the watercolor painting seems far-fetched. But if you believe that )this is
)just a matter of "two terms with very close meanings, )practically
)speaking", with only "slight differences", then I don't )expect to change
)your mind.
I don't see how it can be far-fetched to suggest that Steiner's theories are
applied in Steiner classrooms, modified in various ways for different ages.
It is far-fetched to suggest they are *not*, when the similarities are
apparent. It is far-fetched to suggest that two different approaches to
meditating on color, each derived from Steiner and each used by Steiner
students (whether adults studying anthroposophy, or children in Waldorf
schools), are unrelated.
Yes, "visualization" and "observation" are closely related terms. They are
not identical activities, but it is absurd to deny they are closely related
terms. "Looking at" color, how's that? Looking at it in your mind's eye,
versus looking at it on a piece of paper. Worlds apart? Okey dokey.
)The only reason I posted yesterday was to correct a gratuitous and (in )my
)perhaps hypersensitive opinion) derogatory falsehood.
What derogatory falsehood? That you gave Sharon a hard time? That you felt
triumphant? I stand by the first one, and as for the second, well, it's
hardly a "derogatory falsehood." I've never even been accused of ad hominem
on this list (though I must have veered close with Dottie). Perhaps I've set
too high a standard for myself, if saying someone "felt triumphant" is
thought to call for an apology. Nothing doing.
Diana
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 03:48:20 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure
Sharon quoted:
)Steiner: Now further, it is a case of being able to establish a )favorable
)or unfavorable connection with the beings that surround us. )Let us suppose
)that we use a colour for the room which brings us into )connection with
)beings who disturb us in what we do in this room, then )the colour is
)unfavorable. Conversely our etheric body may be assisted )by spiritual
)beings by using the corresponding colour; this then of )course is
)favourable. (...) The colour surrounding us here brings us )in touch with
)beings in our spiritual environment who come to help us )in our etheric
)body in the spiritual activities which we need in order )to work up
)spiritual truths within us". (95, Steiner, lecture from )1911, Art Inspired
)by Rudolf Steiner, John Fletcher, Mercury Arts )Press 1987).
In other words, the reason they paint particular colors with watercolors in
a particular style (no picture, only color) and in a particular manner
(reverently, ritualistically) is the same reason walls must be painted
certain colors, and parents are advised to dress their children in certain
colors, etc. It's all about invoking or experiencing the presence of various
spiritual beings.
Neil, if you're listening, how much Steiner have you read? (borrowing Peter
S.'s questioning style here:) Is there a reason you think all of these
Steiner pronouncements on color are *not* related to each other or to what
is done in the classroom?
Diana
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 03:57:51 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: RE: RE: Re: Anti-part I to Diana
Percedol:
)Why is it so important for you to know who wrote that? I am trying to
) )understand.
Gosh. Let's see. Because I am interested in Steiner, and would like to know
if that's a Steiner quote? If it is, I learn more about Steiner. If it's
not, I have something to compare to Steiner. Does that help you understand?
You may not have noticed, Percedol, but this is a list about Steiner, and
some of us are studying Steiner's works.
)Does knowing the author trigger a different kind of evaluation of the
) )content?
Certainly. It doesn't work that way with you? Knowing the author of a book
doesn't give you information about the book, if you've read or even heard of
the author previously?
)Would not you be able to consider a content independently from the )author,
)per se? At least as a start.
Yes, but once I've begun studying a particular author, it would be hard not
to know what I already know about the author, and I can't see what purpose
it would serve to pretend to myself that I didn't, or to play little games
to see if I could guess the author blind-folded, unless maybe I were on a
quiz show.
)I did it several times. I see a book, but don't know the author. Read )here
)and there trying to decide if it's something deriving from )spiritual
)vision or not.
Well, I suspect we read for different purposes, Percedol.
Diana
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 01:13:28 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure
on 3/28/02 7:18 PM, Diana Winters at Winters_Diana hotmail.com wrote:
) Neil:
)) To me, it's a stretch to imply that a spiritual meditation exercise )for
)) adults in which the meditator calls up the mental image of a )flower, and
)) then imagines removing all other attributes of the flower, )leaving behind
)) only the color, is essentially the same thing as having )children do
)) single-color watercolor paintings.
Sharon: I was talking about Steiner's philosophy back in those days and
applying it to the classroom. Waldorf is a meditative path for the adult
teachers as well as the children, just different levels of occult knowledge.
Anyway, I wasn't wrong with what I was saying all that time ago, now I have
better quotes up my sleeves. Read the quotes I posted. BTW children don't
always do single color paintings, sometimes they paint traditional
Rosicrucian "flashing colors" and by using counter colors they bring down
Akashic currents. Those blobs they paint are planetary beings and other
spirits Steiner saw in the spirit world.
)) To me, the "suspicious resemblance" between the meditation exercise )and
)) the watercolor painting seems far-fetched. But if you believe that )this is
)) just a matter of "two terms with very close meanings, )practically
)) speaking", with only "slight differences", then I don't )expect to change
)) your mind.
Sharon: Forget that exercise and quote Neil if you are having trouble with
it and read the other, better quotes I posted about color. We are talking
COLOR and beings! Devotion to color. Both visualization and devotion to
color get the same results, they both help you see beings or invoke beings.
)Diana: Yes, "visualization" and "observation" are closely related terms. They
are
) not identical activities, but it is absurd to deny they are closely related
) terms. "Looking at" color, how's that? Looking at it in your mind's eye,
) versus looking at it on a piece of paper. Worlds apart? Okey dokey.
Sharon: Steiner's worlds all merge anyway so this argument is silly. The
spiritual world is permeable, it is all around us and in us. The beings
according to Steiner live in color, they work in and around us even without
our consciousness. It makes no difference whether you gaze at color in the
physical world or the spiritual world. Colors are spirit beings who do their
work.
)
)) The only reason I posted yesterday was to correct a gratuitous and (in )my
)) perhaps hypersensitive opinion) derogatory falsehood.
Sharon: Ah I'm so disappointed, here I was thinking you were going to have a
nice little chat with me about Steiner's occultism. I recommend that you
track down Diana's great find on wet-on-wets written by the rabbi (wink).
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 01:18:26 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure
on 3/28/02 7:48 PM, Diana Winters at Winters_Diana hotmail.com wrote:
Is there a reason you think all of these
) Steiner pronouncements on color are *not* related to each other or to what
) is done in the classroom?
Sharon: The teachers themselves told me that the wet-on-wet blobs were
"Steiner's philosophy", now that I've read some of Steiner's *Theosophy* I
know that visualization of color and devotion to color get the same results,
they both invoke beings and help the initiate see beings. So next time your
Waldorf child comes home and says "Mommy, my teacher was staring and gazing
at the classroom walls again" or "Mommy, my teacher was staring at the wet
on wet blobs again" you will know what is going on, and you can smile a
sweet smile and nod your head "knowingly".
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 07:16:23 +0100
From: Sandra Schlick (sandra.schlick balcab.ch)
Subject: Re: Request to join Waldorf-survivors-only denied
Hi all
I got this notification this morning. I really don't know, whats wrong here,
but I survived waldorf school in the true sense of the word.
Whats that about?
Sandra
"Yahoo! Groups Notification" wrote:
) Hello,
)
) The moderator of the Waldorf-survivors-only group has denied
) your request for membership.
)
) The moderator of each Yahoo! Groups group chooses whether to
) restrict membership in his or her group. Moderators who
) choose to restrict membership also choose whom to admit.
)
) Please note that this decision is final and that Yahoo! Groups
) does not control group membership.
)
) If you would like to create a new group at Yahoo! Groups
) please visit:
)
) http://groups.yahoo.com/start
)
) Thank you for choosing Yahoo! Groups as your email group service.
)
) Regards,
)
) Yahoo! Groups Customer Care
)
) Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 01:18:37 -0500
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: Re: Anti-part I and II to Diana
Diana Winters (Winters_Diana hotmail.com) wrote:
)Percedol:
)
))Why is it so important for you to know who wrote that? I am trying to
)) )understand.
)
)Gosh. Let's see. Because I am interested in Steiner, and would like to know
)if that's a Steiner qu ote? If it is, I learn more about Steiner. If it's
)not, I have something to compare to Steiner. Does that help you understand?
)You may not have noticed, Percedol, but this is a list about Steiner, and
)some of us are studying Steiner's works.
)
I see, but Steiner is not the only teacher of the Spiritual Science.
So, that was Scaligero, anyway. And the movie 'Pollyanna' depicts
very well the situation of co-operator. See more below.
)"The karma of humankind is one and develops itself through the karma )of
)each individual, making it more and more independent from the )collective
)karma"
Same as before, Percedol. More quotes repeating the same thing do not
further the explanation. Yeah, everything "is one" and it "develops itself"
this way. Why? How? If it continues to become "more and more" independent
from the collective karma, how does the idea of "karma of humankind"
continue to mean anything? How could one determine, either for oneself or
someone else (say, a Waldorf teacher trying to decide whether to intervene
in a bullying situation), whether the karma of the people involved is still
part of the collective, or if a particular individuals' karma has
started to
become independent?
P%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
"There is no individual karma that is not connected with the karma of
collectivity. Therefore it is important that an individual karma has
the power to insert itself as an exceptionally dynamic bud in the
collective karma. There are individualities having the task to give
an impulse to the wheel of karma, to make humankind move on. This is
possible, up to the unique case of the Being that uptake upon himself
the karma of all humankind. (???) There are beings who let themselves
consciously be involved i the collective karma or in the karma of the
human group they are connected with, (???) to donate a further
spiritual impulse to the destiny that unites the group."
"a single one who sacrifices him/herself for his/her community, since
pays for it, actually freely constitutes a credit that involves
his/her future karma.
)"the consequences of karma: they go back to (???) an original sin, i.e. )the
)loss of a level beyond the human, that karma has the task to help )man to
)find it again"
Where does he talk about original
sin? Very interesting because it almost sounds like karma itself
has a karma
(a "task"). Will we be done with karma some day when this task is completed
(and we have arisen beyond the level of human)?
P%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Often it is not easy to render the meaning of a word in a different
language. Although the word 'task' seemed acceptable to me, the word
'duty' is much closer in this context. So it is a 'duty' of karma to
help man. By original sin is meant the loss of a level beyond human,
that we have to recover.
Percedol
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 08:01:24 +0100
From: Sandra Schlick (sandra.schlick balcab.ch)
Subject: Re: Request to join Waldorf-survivors-only denied
Hi all
I got this notification this morning. I really don't know, whats wrong here,
but I survived waldorf school in the true sense of the word.
Whats that about?
Sandra
"Yahoo! Groups Notification" wrote:
) Hello,
)
) The moderator of the Waldorf-survivors-only group has denied
) your request for membership.
)
) The moderator of each Yahoo! Groups group chooses whether to
) restrict membership in his or her group. Moderators who
) choose to restrict membership also choose whom to admit.
)
) Please note that this decision is final and that Yahoo! Groups
) does not control group membership.
)
) If you would like to create a new group at Yahoo! Groups
) please visit:
)
) http://groups.yahoo.com/start
)
) Thank you for choosing Yahoo! Groups as your email group service.
)
) Regards,
)
) Yahoo! Groups Customer Care
)
) Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 23:20:25 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: subtle manipulation
A young idealistic do-gooder sees a t-shirt for sale with a photo of Martin
Luther King, Janice Joplin and... who is that other guy? On the other side
of the t-shirt we find quotes by these same people. It seems to relate to
"freedom." I wonder if the idealistic do-gooder is able to find quotes by
the *other guy* on the shirt with regards to race and freedom? You might be
interested in the rest of the site. Seems innocent enough. Guess who
contributes financially? Wanna buy a shirt?
http://www.arteverywhere.org/html/gallery/store/shirts/freedomt.html
- Walden
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 681
-- Topica Digest --
Re: subtle manipulation
By sandra.schlick balcab.ch
Re: subtle manipulation
By sandra.schlick balcab.ch
was off-list to Diana...now on-list
By frithar yahoo.com
Re: was off-list to Diana...now on-list
By sandra.schlick balcab.ch
RE: was off-list to Diana...now on-list
By frithar yahoo.com
Re: was off-list to Diana...now on-list
By sandra.schlick balcab.ch
Re: Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure
By faiman jlc.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 08:16:47 +0100
From: Sandra Schlick (sandra.schlick balcab.ch)
Subject: Re: subtle manipulation
Hi all
I got this notification this morning. I really don't know, whats wrong here,
but I survived waldorf school in the true sense of the word.
Whats that about?
Sandra
walden wrote:
) A young idealistic do-gooder sees a t-shirt for sale with a photo of Martin
) Luther King, Janice Joplin and... who is that other guy? On the other side
) of the t-shirt we find quotes by these same people. It seems to relate to
) "freedom." I wonder if the idealistic do-gooder is able to find quotes by
) the *other guy* on the shirt with regards to race and freedom? You might be
) interested in the rest of the site. Seems innocent enough. Guess who
) contributes financially? Wanna buy a shirt?
)
) http://www.arteverywhere.org/html/gallery/store/shirts/freedomt.html
)
) - Walden
)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 08:17:13 +0100
From: Sandra Schlick (sandra.schlick balcab.ch)
Subject: Re: subtle manipulation
Yahoo! Groups Notification" wrote:
) Hello,
)
) The moderator of the Waldorf-survivors-only group has denied
) your request for membership.
)
) The moderator of each Yahoo! Groups group chooses whether to
) restrict membership in his or her group. Moderators who
) choose to restrict membership also choose whom to admit.
)
) Please note that this decision is final and that Yahoo! Groups
) does not control group membership.
)
) If you would like to create a new group at Yahoo! Groups
) please visit:
)
) http://groups.yahoo.com/start
)
) Thank you for choosing Yahoo! Groups as your email group service.
)
) Regards,
)
) Yahoo! Groups Customer Care
)
) Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
)
walden wrote:
) A young idealistic do-gooder sees a t-shirt for sale with a photo of Martin
) Luther King, Janice Joplin and... who is that other guy? On the other side
) of the t-shirt we find quotes by these same people. It seems to relate to
) "freedom." I wonder if the idealistic do-gooder is able to find quotes by
) the *other guy* on the shirt with regards to race and freedom? You might be
) interested in the rest of the site. Seems innocent enough. Guess who
) contributes financially? Wanna buy a shirt?
)
) http://www.arteverywhere.org/html/gallery/store/shirts/freedomt.html
)
) - Walden
)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:16:57 +0000
From: fritha (frithar yahoo.com)
Subject: was off-list to Diana...now on-list
Hi,Diana...
I didn't want to put this up on the list publicalyy, but I'll tell you
an interesting Karma-Waldorf tale...
I am on the WE_HS "Pro-" Waldorf mailing list, too...not because I'm
pro-waldorf, but because they have some good neutral ideas for me on
homeschooling.
I asked one day about a Waldorf idea that has always troubled me: The
birthday story of the Rainbow Bridge, which tells children that they
picked their parents, etc., before birth.
I asked, so what about children who are abused? Do you dare tell them
that they CHOSE these parents, familied and situations?!
(Bear in mind, I was horrified)
Do you actually tell kids who've been raped by a parent, "Ah, well...you
chose all this before birth?"
Ummm..I hate to tell you their answers...by now you can guess, that
everyone of them who wrote back to me said, basically, "Yes."
Many of them acknowledged how hard it would be for me to accept it, but
by G-d, at least they were honest.
That was my defining moment as far as waldorf goes. All the window
dressing was ripped off for that one moment, and I saw it for the sick,
cruel, child-hating philosophy it is at its core.
I changed my mind--I am going to cross-post this to the board. There
are lurkers out there who need the window dressing pulled back...even if
just for a moment!
Laura Lindsay
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 11:30:52 +0100
From: Sandra Schlick (sandra.schlick balcab.ch)
Subject: Re: was off-list to Diana...now on-list
Hi Laura
I'm grateful to hear that story. As one of my classmates died at the age of
10 while we did a wandering and our teacher did allow as to play hide and
finde at a precipitation of a mountain, it was told later, that this was
the destiny of that child and that this child had chosen to fall even
before we did that wandering. If you ask me, this was careless dieing
("fahrl?ssige T?tung" in german). So, as you may see, they take that very
serious with chosing destiny. And very cynical.
Sandra
fritha wrote:
) Hi,Diana...
) I didn't want to put this up on the list publicalyy, but I'll tell you
) an interesting Karma-Waldorf tale...
)
) I am on the WE_HS "Pro-" Waldorf mailing list, too...not because I'm
) pro-waldorf, but because they have some good neutral ideas for me on
) homeschooling.
)
) I asked one day about a Waldorf idea that has always troubled me: The
) birthday story of the Rainbow Bridge, which tells children that they
) picked their parents, etc., before birth.
)
) I asked, so what about children who are abused? Do you dare tell them
) that they CHOSE these parents, familied and situations?!
)
) (Bear in mind, I was horrified)
)
) Do you actually tell kids who've been raped by a parent, "Ah, well...you
) chose all this before birth?"
)
) Ummm..I hate to tell you their answers...by now you can guess, that
) everyone of them who wrote back to me said, basically, "Yes."
)
) Many of them acknowledged how hard it would be for me to accept it, but
) by G-d, at least they were honest.
)
) That was my defining moment as far as waldorf goes. All the window
) dressing was ripped off for that one moment, and I saw it for the sick,
) cruel, child-hating philosophy it is at its core.
)
) I changed my mind--I am going to cross-post this to the board. There
) are lurkers out there who need the window dressing pulled back...even if
) just for a moment!
)
) Laura Lindsay
)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:39:39 +0000
From: fritha (frithar yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: was off-list to Diana...now on-list
Can you imagine how this removes all responsibility on the part of the
adult to try to "save" a child caught in these circumstances?
"Sorry, kid, I'd like to help you get away from those folks who pin you
down and burn oyu with cigarettes at night...but, ya know, it's just
your KARMA to be there! You must have been really bad in your past
life. Someday, you'll be glad you went through all this!"
I wonder if Waldorf goes along with US law that required teachers to
report suspected child abuse to authorities!?
Probably the statistics are that no Waldorf school has ever been
involved in reporting suspected abuse.
Because, you see, they want to see the abused one work through their
karma-issues by staying IN the situation.
This is why I say Waldorf is child-hating.
They pretend to be the preservers of innocence, when in fact they detest
it and joy in seeing innocence corrupted.
Back into lurking mode...
L.
Schlick wrote:
) Hi Laura
) I'm grateful to hear that story. As one of my classmates died at the age
) of
) 10 while we did a wandering and our teacher did allow as to play hide
) and
) finde at a precipitation of a mountain, it was told later, that this was
) the destiny of that child and that this child had chosen to fall even
) before we did that wandering. If you ask me, this was careless dieing
) ("fahrl?ssige T?tung" in german). So, as you may see, they take that
) very
) serious with chosing destiny. And very cynical.
) Sandra
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 11:53:27 +0100
From: Sandra Schlick (sandra.schlick balcab.ch)
Subject: Re: was off-list to Diana...now on-list
Its well known, that some teachers in Waldorf School abused their pupils.
This has not been prosecuted, contrary, the whole staff was protecting the
teachers and the pupils were threatened to go to a psychiatrist (needless to
say, that they told, which one), if not, to be pulled off the school. The
teachers could of coarse stay (compare Facts magazine, a swiss german news
magazine).
fritha wrote:
) Can you imagine how this removes all responsibility on the part of the
) adult to try to "save" a child caught in these circumstances?
)
) "Sorry, kid, I'd like to help you get away from those folks who pin you
) down and burn oyu with cigarettes at night...but, ya know, it's just
) your KARMA to be there! You must have been really bad in your past
) life. Someday, you'll be glad you went through all this!"
)
) I wonder if Waldorf goes along with US law that required teachers to
) report suspected child abuse to authorities!?
)
) Probably the statistics are that no Waldorf school has ever been
) involved in reporting suspected abuse.
)
) Because, you see, they want to see the abused one work through their
) karma-issues by staying IN the situation.
)
) This is why I say Waldorf is child-hating.
)
) They pretend to be the preservers of innocence, when in fact they detest
) it and joy in seeing innocence corrupted.
)
) Back into lurking mode...
)
) L.
)
) Schlick wrote:
) ) Hi Laura
) ) I'm grateful to hear that story. As one of my classmates died at the age
) ) of
) ) 10 while we did a wandering and our teacher did allow as to play hide
) ) and
) ) finde at a precipitation of a mountain, it was told later, that this was
) ) the destiny of that child and that this child had chosen to fall even
) ) before we did that wandering. If you ask me, this was careless dieing
) ) ("fahrl?ssige T?tung" in german). So, as you may see, they take that
) ) very
) ) serious with chosing destiny. And very cynical.
) ) Sandra
)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 06:54:09 -0500
From: Neil Faiman (faiman jlc.net)
Subject: Re: Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure
on 3/28/02 10:18 PM, Diana Winters at Winters_Diana hotmail.com wrote:
) Ok, Neil, you can split hairs, I can too.
Diana,
Forget the 15 messages, forget the triumph, and consider that (with the
single exception of the "very hard time", if you really regard telling
someone that "Your [paraphrase] seems to have nothing to do with the passage
that you claim to be paraphrasing" amounts to "giving them a very hard
time"), there is not one correct fact in your entire story.
Do you really think that it's "splitting hairs" to point out that an
anecdote someone has told about you is fiction from beginning to end?
Regards,
Neil Faiman
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 682
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
Re: was off-list to Diana...now on-list
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
RE: Connecticut Waldorf Schools--New York Times
By sjgreen seidata.com
Re: Connecticut Waldorf Schools--New York Times
By sandra.schlick balcab.ch
[FWD: Re: Anti-part I and II to Diana]
By Percedol netscape.net
Watercolor/Spiritual Beings
By snell gv.net
Re: Connecticut Waldorf Schools--New York Times
By Gary GoodWinter.com
Re: Connecticut Waldorf Schools--New York Times
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: Request to join Waldorf-survivors-only denied
By dan dandugan.com
Re: was off-list to Diana...now on-list
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Spot the Difference #2
By waldorf_kh hotmail.com
RE: Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure
By faiman jlc.net
Re: Connecticut Waldorf Schools--New York Times
By dan dandugan.com
RE: Connecticut Waldorf Schools--New York Times
By sjgreen seidata.com
RE: Re: was off-list to Diana...now on-list
By Percedol netscape.net
Re: Re: was off-list to Diana...now on-list
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
RE: Re: was off-list to Diana...now on-list
By snell gv.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 13:53:34 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure
Neil:
)Forget the 15 messages, forget the triumph, and consider that (with the
)single exception of the "very hard time", if you really regard telling
)someone that "Your [paraphrase] seems to have nothing to do with the
) )passage that you claim to be paraphrasing" amounts to "giving them a
) )very hard time"), there is not one correct fact in your entire story.
)Do you really think that it's "splitting hairs" to point out that an
)anecdote someone has told about you is fiction from beginning to end?
I disagree that it was fiction. The parts you have disputed were trivial -
the number of messages! and you have (by implication) suggested you did not
feel triumphant and, I guess, didn't mean to give Sharon a hard time. I
found the arguments about whether "observation" and "visualization" are
sufficiently different to call into question the entire comparison between
the two modes of color meditation to be hair-slitting in a most ridiculous
way. I'm sure it is obvious to all that the purpose was to give the critic a
hard time. I am quite sure you see the similarities in the two exercises
that were being compared, and are capable of grasping the relationship
between "visualization" and "observation" and why one would be better suited
to a classroom activity.
It is exactly the type of argumentation I am referring to that is so
infuriating with Waldorf defenders here. The basic argument the critics
made, that a Steiner classroom technique that has a clear and direct
explanation in Steiner's own writings, must come from Steiner, would
certainly not be disputed on any of the pro-Waldorf lists. There they would
happily tell you the purpose of watercolor painting with small children is
to invoke spiritual beings to guide or inspire the children.
Everyone would nod happily because they *want* their children to be
receptive to spiritual beings. There is nothing wrong with that if that is
what the parents believe and the parents understand the purpose of the
activity. Why not package up Waldorf and sell it for what it is? There are
plenty of customers.
Only here are the critics told we are out of our minds to have figured out
that such activities come out of the magical tradition and continue to be
used for this purpose today in Waldorf schools.
The only possible way to throw up resistance is what you did - dispute the
meaning of a few words in order to suggest the entire comparison is baseless
- without, of course, actually saying that, so that later you can claim
never to have even meant what you implied, and then start arguing over who
said what when.
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 14:35:14 +0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: was off-list to Diana...now on-list
)Hi,Diana...
)I didn't want to put this up on the list publicalyy, but I'll tell you
)an interesting Karma-Waldorf tale...
Laura, thanks for this, I am *way* in trouble for time this morning (Fri.)
but will try to pick it up tonight or this weekend.
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:27:14 -0500
From: "Green Family" (sjgreen seidata.com)
Subject: RE: Connecticut Waldorf Schools--New York Times
Beautiful job in the interview Dan!!! Thank you for all of your hard work.
You may have educated a few parents and saved a few children. Jennifer
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 16:50:38 +0100
From: Sandra Schlick (sandra.schlick balcab.ch)
Subject: Re: Connecticut Waldorf Schools--New York Times
Hi I don't find this article, whats the exact title of the article, when did it
appear in the NYT?
Thanks
Sandra
Green Family wrote:
) Beautiful job in the interview Dan!!! Thank you for all of your hard work.
) You may have educated a few parents and saved a few children. Jennifer
)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 12:03:04 -0500
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: [FWD: Re: Anti-part I and II to Diana]
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Diana Winters (Winters_Diana hotmail.com) wrote:
)Percedol:
)
))Why is it so important for you to know who wrote that? I am trying to
)) )understand.
)
)Gosh. Let's see. Because I am interested in Steiner, and would like to know
)if that's a Steiner qu ote? If it is, I learn more about Steiner. If it's
)not, I have something to compare to Steiner. Does that help you understand?
)You may not have noticed, Percedol, but this is a list about Steiner, and
)some of us are studying Steiner's works.
)
I see, but Steiner is not the only teacher of the Spiritual Science.
So, that was Scaligero, anyway. And the movie 'Pollyanna' depicts
very well the situation of co-operator. See more below.
)"The karma of humankind is one and develops itself through the karma )of
?? ??)each individual, making it more and more independent from the )collective
?? ??)karma"
?? ??Same as before, Percedol. More quotes repeating the same thing do not
?? ??further the explanation. Yeah, everything "is one" and it
"develops itself"
?? ??this way. Why? How? If it continues to become "more and more" independent
?? ??from the collective karma, how does the idea of "karma of humankind"
?? ??continue to mean anything? How could one determine, either for oneself or
?? ??someone else (say, a Waldorf teacher trying to decide whether to intervene
?? ??in a bullying situation), whether the karma of the people
involved is still
?? ??part of the collective, or if a particular individuals' karma
has started to
?? ??become independent?
P%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
"There is no individual karma that is not connected with the karma of
collectivity. Therefore it is important that an individual karma has
the power to insert itself as an exceptionally dynamic bud in the
collective karma. There are individualities having the task to give
an impulse to the wheel of karma, to make humankind move on. This is
possible, up to the unique case of the Being that uptake upon himself
the karma of all humankind. (???) There are beings who let themselves
consciously be involved in the collective karma or in the karma of
the human group they are connected with, (???) to donate a further
spiritual impulse to the destiny that unites the group."
"a single one who sacrifices him/herself for his/her community, since
pays for it, actually freely constitutes a credit that involves
his/her future karma.
)"the consequences of karma: they go back to (???) an original sin, i.e. )the
?? ??)loss of a level beyond the human, that karma has the task to help )man to
?? ??)find it again"
Where does he talk about original
?? ??sin? Very interesting because it almost sounds like karma itself
has a karma
?? ??(a "task"). Will we be done with karma some day when this task
is completed
?? ??(and we have arisen beyond the level of human)?
P%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Often it is not easy to render the meaning of a word in a different
language. Although the word 'task' seemed acceptable to me, the word
'duty' is much closer in this context. So it is a 'duty' of karma to
help man. By original sin is meant the loss of a level beyond human,
that we have to recover.
Percedol
__________________________________________________________________
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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 01:18:37 -0500
From: Percedol
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Re: Anti-part I and II to Diana
Message-ID: (7727A2EA.513476C3.007E1196 netscape.net)
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Diana Winters (Winters_Diana hotmail.com) wrote:
)Percedol:
)
))Why is it so important for you to know who wrote that? I am trying to
)) )understand.
)
)Gosh. Let's see. Because I am interested in Steiner, and would like to know
)if that's a Steiner qu ote? If it is, I learn more about Steiner. If it's
)not, I have something to compare to Steiner. Does that help you understand?
)You may not have noticed, Percedol, but this is a list about Steiner, and
)some of us are studying Steiner's works.
)
I see, but Steiner is not the only teacher of the Spiritual Science.
So, that was Scaligero, anyway. And the movie 'Pollyanna' depicts
very well the situation of co-operator. See more below.
)"The karma of humankind is one and develops itself through the karma )of
)each individual, making it more and more independent from the )collective
)karma"
Same as before, Percedol. More quotes repeating the same thing do not
further the explanation. Yeah, everything "is one" and it "develops itself"
this way. Why? How? If it continues to become "more and more" independent
from the collective karma, how does the idea of "karma of humankind"
continue to mean anything? How could one determine, either for oneself or
someone else (say, a Waldorf teacher trying to decide whether to intervene
in a bullying situation), whether the karma of the people involved is still
part of the collective, or if a particular individuals' karma has
started to
become independent?
P%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
"There is no individual karma that is not connected with the karma of
collectivity. Therefore it is important that an individual karma has
the power to insert itself as an exceptionally dynamic bud in the
collective karma. There are individualities having the task to give
an impulse to the wheel of karma, to make humankind move on. This is
possible, up to the unique case of the Being that uptake upon himself
the karma of all humankind. (???) There are beings who let themselves
consciously be involved in the collective karma or in the karma of
the human group they are connected with, (???) to donate a further
spiritual impulse to the destiny that unites the group."
"a single one who sacrifices him/herself for his/her community, since
pays for it, actually freely constitutes a credit that involves
his/her future karma.
)"the consequences of karma: they go back to (???) an original sin, i.e. )the
)loss of a level beyond the human, that karma has the task to help )man to
)find it again"
Where does he talk about original
sin? Very interesting because it almost sounds like karma itself
has a karma
(a "task"). Will we be done with karma some day when this task is completed
(and we have arisen beyond the level of human)?
P%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Often it is not easy to render the meaning of a word in a different
language. Although the word 'task' seemed acceptable to me, the word
'duty' is much closer in this context. So it is a 'duty' of karma to
help man. By original sin is meant the loss of a level beyond human,
that we have to recover.
Percedol
__________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 09:21:53 -0800
From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
Subject: Watercolor/Spiritual Beings
I was asked to post this here anonymously..
Interesting.
_ds
)
)
)###
)On pro-Waldorf lists, Diana says, "they would happily tell you the
)purpose of watercolor painting with small children is to invoke
)spiritual beings to guide or inspire the children."
)
)Um, actually "they" just did. A Waldorf school administrator who is
)participating on the homeschooling list (in order to better understand
)"the concerns of homeschoolers", or something like that), just posted
)a long explanation about Lucifer and Ahriman. He had this to say about
)spiritual beings (please note the section with asterisks):
)
)"These beings are lofty spiritual beings. Steiner describes them as
)being commanded by God to cross the path of humanity so that we can
)develop free will. If we want to send light, we should send it to our
)own angels -- they have a heck of a time keeping us out of these
)beings clutches -- and to other people. ***You will see that a great
)number of Waldorf activities are intended to invite benevolent beings
)and create a protective spiritual barrier around our children.***
)
)For those of you who are into Easter and/or Michaelmas, it is worth
)noting that these festivals stand opposite each other in the calendar
)(supporting and giving deeper meaning to each other), and that with
)Christmas and Pentecost they form a cross through the calendar.
)
)For those of you who are really open-minded, Steiner has a series of
)lectures titled "Lucifer and Ahriman" or "The Influences of..." and a
)book titled "The Fifth Gospel"."
)
)- David Darcy
)
)So there you go - Diana is correct that "Only here are the critics
)told we are out of our minds to have figured out that such activities
)come out of the magical tradition and continue to be
)used for this purpose today in Waldorf schools."
)
)Only here.
--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 13:52:00 -0500
From: Gary Bonhiver (gary goodwinter.com)
Subject: Re: Connecticut Waldorf Schools--New York Times
on 3/29/02 10:27 AM, Green Family at sjgreen seidata.com wrote:
) Beautiful job in the interview Dan!!! Thank you for all of your hard work.
) You may have educated a few parents and saved a few children. Jennifer
I didn't receive the original post...was it from Dan?
...Gary
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 15:22:08 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Connecticut Waldorf Schools--New York Times
on 3/28/02 1:36 AM, Dan Dugan at dan dandugan.com wrote:
) New York Times, March 26, 2000, Sunday
)
) CONNECTICUT WEEKLY DESK
)
) Different Teaching Method Attracts Parents
)
) By ADAM BOWLES (NYT) 1646 words
)
) THE math work sheets seemed so sterile, the nightly ''ABC'' chants
) ridiculous. But what finally convinced Cheryl Roberts to remove her
) daughter from the local public school and enroll her in a small
) Waldorf school was a complaint her kindergarten daughter made about
) class assignments.
)
) ''The night I put my daughter to bed and she said, 'Mommy my brain
) hurts. I'm dumb,' was the night I said enough,'' recalled Ms.
) Roberts, 37, of Redding. ''This 5-year-old was having her self esteem
) crushed and for what? Property values, frankly. And for fourth-grade
) mastery tests.''
)
) Relatively unknown in Connecticut, the Waldorf system of education,
) based on the philosophy of Rudolf Steiner of Austria, is steadily
) attracting parents like Ms. Roberts to its schools around the world
) despite criticism from a California group about the way children are
) taught.
)
) There are more than 600 Waldorf primary and secondary schools in more
) than 32 countries serving about 120,000 students, according to the
) Association of Waldorf Schools of North America in Fair Oaks, Calif.
) It said that in North America, there are about 150 Waldorf schools,
) up from 65 in 1991. There are two in Connecticut, with a total of
) about 110 students.
)
) Housatonic Valley School in Newtown opened in 1989 and began a grade
) school in 1995. It is the only school in the state certified by the
) Waldorf association. There are 8 teachers and 75 students in
) preschool through sixth grade.
)
) Laura McDonald, the school's early childhood development coordinator,
) said there will be up to 60 additional students next school year once
) the early childhood program expands and a seventh grade is added.
) Tuition is $6,800 a year at the grade school.
)
) The Linden Hill School in Wilton follows the Waldorf system, which is
) named after the cigarette company that financed the first Steiner
) schools in 1919 in Germany. Linden Hill is now seeking certification
) from the Waldorf association. The private, nonprofit school added a
) first grade this year and plans to eventually expand to eight grades
) as children complete each year. There are 35 students and tuition is
) $7,500.
)
) Torin Fraser, a director at Antioch/New England Waldorf Teacher
) Training Program in Keene, N.H., said there are 200 graduates from
) Waldorf teacher schools around the country. At Antioch, where the
) majority of New England Waldorf teachers are trained, there are 80
) students, compared to 12 when it first opened in 1982.
)
) ''It's growing rapidly,'' Mr. Fraser said. ''But Connecticut has been
) one of the last New England states to take off.''
)
) Neither school in the state has sought approval from the State
) Department of Education, a voluntary process, or is registered among
) the 90 schools listed as members of the Connecticut Association of
) Independent Schools. Sheila Brown, the nonpublic schools coordinator
) for the education department, said the state hasn't received any
) complaints about the schools.
)
) ''The nonpublic schools in Connecticut represent a wide range of
) philosophies and visions for education,'' Ms. Brown said. ''Waldorf
) schools would not be denied state approval because of its mission.''
)
) One of the harshest critics of the Waldorf system is the People for
) Legal and Nonsectarian Schools, a nonprofit group in California that
) has filed a federal lawsuit against two California school districts
) for using public money to fund Waldorf schools.
)
) ''Rudolf Steiner's theory of childhood development is based on
) clairvoyant experiences with the spiritual world,'' Dan Dugan, the
) group's secretary, said. ''It basically ignores everything that has
) ever been known about child development since 1920.''
)
) Waldorf schools stress creativity and freethinking. Mr. Steiner, who
) died in 1925, was the founder of anthroposophy, which means human
) wisdom, and holds that people can investigate spiritual worlds and
) uncover hidden realities through study and observation. Followers
) said some of those realities are found in medicine and agriculture.
)
) It was also the method that contributed to Mr. Steiner's view of
) child development, which forms the basis of Waldorf education. He
) believed that people experience a type of reincarnation every seven
) years, beginning with the physical birth and ending at age 21, when
) the spirit of a human being is fully developed and continually
) reincarnated on earth. Certain subjects are taught at times that he
) thought best coincided with these changes.
)
) The differences between Waldorf schools and other educational systems
) are noticeable early. Unlike public schools, where there is a trend
) to develop full-day kindergarten programs to make time for reading
) instruction, there is no academic content in Waldorf kindergartens.
) In fact, reading is not taught until second or third grade, though
) the letters are introduced in first and second grades. Supporters
) believe children must first master oral communication.
)
) In Waldorf elementary schools, students have the same main teacher
) for eight years. Art, music, gardening, and foreign languages are
) considered central to education. In first through fifth grade,
) children do not use textbooks, but rather produce workbooks with
) records of their experiences. They are given evaluations, not grades.
)
) Students celebrate the changing of the seasons, practice eurythmy, a
) form a dance that supporters said helps students connect with the
) rhythms of nature, use watercolors as a means to control aggression,
) and are encouraged to avoid TV.
)
) This educational philosophy appealed to Ms. Roberts.
)
) She, her husband, William, and their two children, moved from
) Washington, D.C. to Connecticut in 1997 to enroll their children in
) what they considered to be a safer public school system.
)
) But Ms. Roberts remained dissatisfied.
)
) ''I felt the public schools were really driven by test scores,'' she
) said. ''That seemed to be the only measure of success. There are
) better ways to teach than with just a work sheet. There's more to a
) person than just a brain.''
)
) Ms. Roberts organized four couples who were also dissatisfied to
) spend three weeks searching alternatives. Most of the private schools
) the couples checked into stressed pure academics.
)
) Ms. Roberts wanted something for her children's heart and soul. She
) said she found that in the kindergarten at what eventually became the
) Linden Hill School.
)
) Instead of cinder block walls, she found wood floors, silk curtains,
) natural wooden toys and muted pastel colors painted on the walls. It
) was beautiful and she was captivated.
)
) In the end, three of the couples decided to send their children to
) Waldorf schools.
)
) Mr. Dugan also thought he had found the perfect match for his son
) when he enrolled him in a sixth-grade class at a Waldorf school in
) San Francisco in 1987. He was attracted to the school because of the
) dedication of the teachers and the integration of arts into the
) curriculum, but became increasingly disturbed by some of the
) teachings.
)
) He started asking questions. Why do teachers insist white light can
) not be refracted into colors? Why don't they consider the heart to be
) a pump? Why do they teach that there are 12 senses related to the
) signs of the zodiac?
)
) He wanted to reform the curriculum, but instead he said his family
) was thrown out.
)
) Mr. Dugan formed the People for Legal and Nonsectarian Schools, a
) coalition of 36 people whose goal is to fight Waldorf education from
) being established in public schools. Marianne Alsop, managing editor
) of a magazine produced by the Waldorf association, said there are
) nine public schools around the country where the Waldorf method is
) used.
)
) While he acknowledged that private Waldorf schools like those in
) Connecticut do not violate the United States Constitution, Mr. Dugan
) said parents often are unaware of what he said was the occultist
) belief system that forms the basis of learning for their children.
)
) Mr. Dugan said private schools have a right to teach students
) whatever they deem fit, but he said parents are led to believe
) anthroposophy is not an in issue in the classroom. Waldorf supporters
) said their schools do not teach religion.
)
) At Antioch, the Waldorf teaching program shares a building with the
) Center for Anthroposophy and teachers are required to learn all about
) Rudolf Steiner.
)
) Mr. Fraser, author of School is a Journey, a book about his
) experiences teaching a Waldorf class from first to eighth grade,
) describes most Waldorf parents as progressive, not religious. He also
) said Mr. Steiner is an exemplary man, particularly in education.
)
) ''He is an amazing person, outstanding thinker,'' Mr. Fraser, 44,
) said, ''but he can be challenging to read.''
)
) If taken out of context, Steiner's writings can appear to be
) ''problematic'' and ''weird,'' Mr. Fraser said.
)
) Heidi Greene, who in 1993 started the Waldorf-inspired preschool from
) which the Linden Hill School sprang, said although she does not
) practice all of Mr. Steiner's beliefs, she considered Waldorf
) education to be a beautiful way for a child to begin to learn.
)
) But unlike many Waldorf supporters, Ms. Greene, 43, said some of Mr.
) Steiner's views on education should be adaptable to more modern
) theories of education.
)
) ''I was not able to completely embrace a Waldorf life style,'' Ms.
) Greene said. ''I believe in incorporating what is new and good with
) Steiner philosophy.''
)
) Fran Scharf, president of the Redding Elementary School P.T.A., said
) she only knows about Waldorf schools in general terms, but supported
) the concept.
)
) ''It is good that those schools exist,'' Ms. Scharf said. ''I think
) we should be offering varying forms of education so we as parents can
) find what works best for our children. One model does not fit every
) child.''
)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 12:42:36 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Request to join Waldorf-survivors-only denied
Sandra Schlick, you wrote,
)I got this notification this morning. I really don't know, whats wrong here,
)but I survived waldorf school in the true sense of the word.
)Whats that about?
)Sandra
Sandra, this is off-topic for waldorf-critics. Debra and Lisa
moderate waldorf-survivors-only, and they will assist you in
subscribing.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 12:46:47 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: was off-list to Diana...now on-list
Laura Lindsay, you wrote,
)I asked one day about a Waldorf idea that has always troubled me: The
)birthday story of the Rainbow Bridge, which tells children that they
)picked their parents, etc., before birth.
)
)I asked, so what about children who are abused? Do you dare tell them
)that they CHOSE these parents, familied and situations?!
)
)(Bear in mind, I was horrified)
)
)Do you actually tell kids who've been raped by a parent, "Ah, well...you
)chose all this before birth?"
)
)Ummm..I hate to tell you their answers...by now you can guess, that
)everyone of them who wrote back to me said, basically, "Yes."
)
)Many of them acknowledged how hard it would be for me to accept it, but
)by G-d, at least they were honest.
The problem is that Steiner claimed to be able to make exact
observations in the spiritual world, so it just isn't possible to
disagree with anything he said. This explains why the teachers at my
school could only say, when I pointed out racism in the books we were
selling at the school, "some Steiner is difficult."
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 15:07:47 -0700
From: "Kathy Harlan" (waldorf_kh hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Spot the Difference #2
Sharon wrote:
)On page 12 it says, "Eurythmy is an important part of the Waldorf
)curriculum".
)
Kathy: This made me recall a parent meeting discussion at the W school we
attended. The school hadn't had a Eurythmy teacher for several years. I
guess not being able to recruit and pay a teacher was a good enough reason
to NOT make it an important part of the Waldorf curriculum. The parents
were insisting that someone at the school should be teaching 'dance' and
continued to question the class teacher on why she couldn't at least do some
Eurythmy with the students. The teacher kept saying how it took years of
training to teach Eurythmy which none of us parents could understand.
Another example of the school being on one side of the joke and all the
parents on the other.
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 22:28:32 +0000
From: Neil Faiman (faiman jlc.net)
Subject: RE: Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure
Diana Winters wrote:
)
) ...
)
) I disagree that it was fiction. The parts you have disputed were trivial
) -
I posted your anecdote in its entirety; I posted the message that you
were alluding to in its entirety; and then I asked, "If Diana can
provide the other 14 posts, the very hard time that I gave Sharon, my
expressions of triumph, OR ANY OF THE OTHER ELEMENTS THAT SHE HAS
ATTRIBUTED TO ME, I would welcome the opportunity to have my memory
refreshed."
I think that made it clear that I disputed your anecdote *in its
entirety*. The only point of the entire anecdote that you chose to
defend was that I "gave Sharon a very hard time".
Here again is your story: "Neil Faiman once gave Sharon a very hard
time for making what he viewed as a *huge* leap from Steiner's
prescribed spiritual color exercises to Waldorf painting instruction
(which for some odd reason suspiciously resemble one another). Neil
emerged feeling triumphant about 15 posts later because the critics in
his view failed to *prove* this with specific Steiner quotes in which
Steiner advised teachers to use *these exact exercises* with *Waldorf*
students and with Waldorf students only for *this reason* and for no
other reason."
And here is the message that you were alluding to: "[quote from Sharon
elided] Your 'other words' here seem to have nothing to do with the
passage that you claim to be paraphrasing. The Steiner passage is
describing an exercise in visualization, not an exercise in observation.
It says nothing at all about 'looking at color.' [quote from Sharon
elided] Is this your opinion, your opinion of Steiner's opinion, or your
opinion of some teacher's opinion?"
Do you really not think that the details of your story were at least a
little bit creative? Do you really think that "Neil emerged feeling
triumphant about 15 posts later because the critics in his view failed
to *prove* this with specific Steiner quotes in which Steiner advised
teachers to use *these exact exercises* with *Waldorf* students and with
Waldorf students only for *this reason* and for no other reason" is an
accurate summary of my four sentences?
Regards,
Neil Faiman
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 12:55:38 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Connecticut Waldorf Schools--New York Times
Sandra Schlick, you wrote:
)Hi I don't find this article, whats the exact title of the article,
)when did it
)appear in the NYT?
Here's the header from my original post to this thread:
***
New York Times, March 26, 2000, Sunday
CONNECTICUT WEEKLY DESK
Different Teaching Method Attracts Parents
By ADAM BOWLES (NYT) 1646 words
***
I posted the text in full in that first post on March 28.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 20:34:56 -0500
From: "Green Family" (sjgreen seidata.com)
Subject: RE: Connecticut Waldorf Schools--New York Times
A couple of you did not receive Dan's post, so here it is! Jennifer
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Dugan [mailto:dan dandugan.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 4:37 AM
To: waldorf-critics topica.com
Subject: Connecticut Waldorf Schools--New York Times
New York Times, March 26, 2000, Sunday
CONNECTICUT WEEKLY DESK
Different Teaching Method Attracts Parents
By ADAM BOWLES (NYT) 1646 words
THE math work sheets seemed so sterile, the nightly ''ABC'' chants
ridiculous. But what finally convinced Cheryl Roberts to remove her
daughter from the local public school and enroll her in a small
Waldorf school was a complaint her kindergarten daughter made about
class assignments.
''The night I put my daughter to bed and she said, 'Mommy my brain
hurts. I'm dumb,' was the night I said enough,'' recalled Ms.
Roberts, 37, of Redding. ''This 5-year-old was having her self esteem
crushed and for what? Property values, frankly. And for fourth-grade
mastery tests.''
Relatively unknown in Connecticut, the Waldorf system of education,
based on the philosophy of Rudolf Steiner of Austria, is steadily
attracting parents like Ms. Roberts to its schools around the world
despite criticism from a California group about the way children are
taught.
There are more than 600 Waldorf primary and secondary schools in more
than 32 countries serving about 120,000 students, according to the
Association of Waldorf Schools of North America in Fair Oaks, Calif.
It said that in North America, there are about 150 Waldorf schools,
up from 65 in 1991. There are two in Connecticut, with a total of
about 110 students.
Housatonic Valley School in Newtown opened in 1989 and began a grade
school in 1995. It is the only school in the state certified by the
Waldorf association. There are 8 teachers and 75 students in
preschool through sixth grade.
Laura McDonald, the school's early childhood development coordinator,
said there will be up to 60 additional students next school year once
the early childhood program expands and a seventh grade is added.
Tuition is $6,800 a year at the grade school.
The Linden Hill School in Wilton follows the Waldorf system, which is
named after the cigarette company that financed the first Steiner
schools in 1919 in Germany. Linden Hill is now seeking certification
from the Waldorf association. The private, nonprofit school added a
first grade this year and plans to eventually expand to eight grades
as children complete each year. There are 35 students and tuition is
$7,500.
Torin Fraser, a director at Antioch/New England Waldorf Teacher
Training Program in Keene, N.H., said there are 200 graduates from
Waldorf teacher schools around the country. At Antioch, where the
majority of New England Waldorf teachers are trained, there are 80
students, compared to 12 when it first opened in 1982.
''It's growing rapidly,'' Mr. Fraser said. ''But Connecticut has been
one of the last New England states to take off.''
Neither school in the state has sought approval from the State
Department of Education, a voluntary process, or is registered among
the 90 schools listed as members of the Connecticut Association of
Independent Schools. Sheila Brown, the nonpublic schools coordinator
for the education department, said the state hasn't received any
complaints about the schools.
''The nonpublic schools in Connecticut represent a wide range of
philosophies and visions for education,'' Ms. Brown said. ''Waldorf
schools would not be denied state approval because of its mission.''
One of the harshest critics of the Waldorf system is the People for
Legal and Nonsectarian Schools, a nonprofit group in California that
has filed a federal lawsuit against two California school districts
for using public money to fund Waldorf schools.
''Rudolf Steiner's theory of childhood development is based on
clairvoyant experiences with the spiritual world,'' Dan Dugan, the
group's secretary, said. ''It basically ignores everything that has
ever been known about child development since 1920.''
Waldorf schools stress creativity and freethinking. Mr. Steiner, who
died in 1925, was the founder of anthroposophy, which means human
wisdom, and holds that people can investigate spiritual worlds and
uncover hidden realities through study and observation. Followers
said some of those realities are found in medicine and agriculture.
It was also the method that contributed to Mr. Steiner's view of
child development, which forms the basis of Waldorf education. He
believed that people experience a type of reincarnation every seven
years, beginning with the physical birth and ending at age 21, when
the spirit of a human being is fully developed and continually
reincarnated on earth. Certain subjects are taught at times that he
thought best coincided with these changes.
The differences between Waldorf schools and other educational systems
are noticeable early. Unlike public schools, where there is a trend
to develop full-day kindergarten programs to make time for reading
instruction, there is no academic content in Waldorf kindergartens.
In fact, reading is not taught until second or third grade, though
the letters are introduced in first and second grades. Supporters
believe children must first master oral communication.
In Waldorf elementary schools, students have the same main teacher
for eight years. Art, music, gardening, and foreign languages are
considered central to education. In first through fifth grade,
children do not use textbooks, but rather produce workbooks with
records of their experiences. They are given evaluations, not grades.
Students celebrate the changing of the seasons, practice eurythmy, a
form a dance that supporters said helps students connect with the
rhythms of nature, use watercolors as a means to control aggression,
and are encouraged to avoid TV.
This educational philosophy appealed to Ms. Roberts.
She, her husband, William, and their two children, moved from
Washington, D.C. to Connecticut in 1997 to enroll their children in
what they considered to be a safer public school system.
But Ms. Roberts remained dissatisfied.
''I felt the public schools were really driven by test scores,'' she
said. ''That seemed to be the only measure of success. There are
better ways to teach than with just a work sheet. There's more to a
person than just a brain.''
Ms. Roberts organized four couples who were also dissatisfied to
spend three weeks searching alternatives. Most of the private schools
the couples checked into stressed pure academics.
Ms. Roberts wanted something for her children's heart and soul. She
said she found that in the kindergarten at what eventually became the
Linden Hill School.
Instead of cinder block walls, she found wood floors, silk curtains,
natural wooden toys and muted pastel colors painted on the walls. It
was beautiful and she was captivated.
In the end, three of the couples decided to send their children to
Waldorf schools.
Mr. Dugan also thought he had found the perfect match for his son
when he enrolled him in a sixth-grade class at a Waldorf school in
San Francisco in 1987. He was attracted to the school because of the
dedication of the teachers and the integration of arts into the
curriculum, but became increasingly disturbed by some of the
teachings.
He started asking questions. Why do teachers insist white light can
not be refracted into colors? Why don't they consider the heart to be
a pump? Why do they teach that there are 12 senses related to the
signs of the zodiac?
He wanted to reform the curriculum, but instead he said his family
was thrown out.
Mr. Dugan formed the People for Legal and Nonsectarian Schools, a
coalition of 36 people whose goal is to fight Waldorf education from
being established in public schools. Marianne Alsop, managing editor
of a magazine produced by the Waldorf association, said there are
nine public schools around the country where the Waldorf method is
used.
While he acknowledged that private Waldorf schools like those in
Connecticut do not violate the United States Constitution, Mr. Dugan
said parents often are unaware of what he said was the occultist
belief system that forms the basis of learning for their children.
Mr. Dugan said private schools have a right to teach students
whatever they deem fit, but he said parents are led to believe
anthroposophy is not an in issue in the classroom. Waldorf supporters
said their schools do not teach religion.
At Antioch, the Waldorf teaching program shares a building with the
Center for Anthroposophy and teachers are required to learn all about
Rudolf Steiner.
Mr. Fraser, author of School is a Journey, a book about his
experiences teaching a Waldorf class from first to eighth grade,
describes most Waldorf parents as progressive, not religious. He also
said Mr. Steiner is an exemplary man, particularly in education.
''He is an amazing person, outstanding thinker,'' Mr. Fraser, 44,
said, ''but he can be challenging to read.''
If taken out of context, Steiner's writings can appear to be
''problematic'' and ''weird,'' Mr. Fraser said.
Heidi Greene, who in 1993 started the Waldorf-inspired preschool from
which the Linden Hill School sprang, said although she does not
practice all of Mr. Steiner's beliefs, she considered Waldorf
education to be a beautiful way for a child to begin to learn.
But unlike many Waldorf supporters, Ms. Greene, 43, said some of Mr.
Steiner's views on education should be adaptable to more modern
theories of education.
''I was not able to completely embrace a Waldorf life style,'' Ms.
Greene said. ''I believe in incorporating what is new and good with
Steiner philosophy.''
Fran Scharf, president of the Redding Elementary School P.T.A., said
she only knows about Waldorf schools in general terms, but supported
the concept.
''It is good that those schools exist,'' Ms. Scharf said. ''I think
we should be offering varying forms of education so we as parents can
find what works best for our children. One model does not fit every
child.''
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 02:30:06 -0500
From: Percedol netscape.net
Subject: RE: Re: was off-list to Diana...now on-list
Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com) wrote:
)Laura Lindsay, you wrote,
)
))I asked one day about a Waldorf idea that has always troubled me: ?The
))birthday story of the Rainbow Bridge, which tells children that they
))picked their parents, etc., before birth.
) )
))I asked, so what about children who are abused? ?Do you dare tell them
))that they CHOSE these parents, familied and situations?!
))
))(Bear in mind, I was horrified)
))
))Do you actually tell kids who've been raped by a parent, "Ah, well...you
))chos e all this before birth?"
))
))Ummm..I hate to tell you their answers...by now you can guess, that
))everyone of them who wrote back to me said, basically, "Yes."
))
))Many of them acknowledged how hard it would be for me to accept it, but
))by G-d, at least they were honest.
)
)The problem is that Steiner claimed to be able to make exact
)observations in the spiritual world, so it just isn't possible to
)disagree with anything he said. This explains why the teachers at my
)school could only say, when I pointed out racism in the books we were
)selling at the school, "some Steiner is difficult."
)
)-Dan Dugan
P%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
There are concepts that some people find difficult to accept. One is
that children may choose abusive parents. First, one has to consider
karma. And it would be important to remember that the idea of karma
is derived form Hindu religion and is not something new made up by
the spiritual science. The ideal for a Hindu is liberation (mukti)
from the samsara, i.e. the painful series of lives conditioned by the
fruit of our actions (karman) made in a previous life. The subject of
the samsara is the perennial responsible of its unhappiness, because
he is paying in every life for the errors and sins commited in a
previous life. The origin of samsara is Ignorance (a-vidya), parallel
to the christian 'original sin'. Therefore, Knowledge (vidya) will
put an end to the series of lives. This is not an intellectual
knowledge but is the intuition of identity of each one (atman) with
Brahman.
When the individual is disincarnated is able to realize the identity
with the I, by dissolving all human determinations. At that point
he/she is the true subject (Purusha). The decisions of the true
subject are made here according to our karma and have the character
of objectivity. Despite the fact that from the human point of view
they may be very painful, these events are prepared by the I together
with those who will take part to it, according to karma.
For a Buddhist as well it is obvious that 'every object or event that
I find in front of me, is just a symbol of my destiny, of the karman
that I myself have prepared with my own hands.'
Percedol
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 00:40:59 -0800
From: walden (awaldenpond shaw.ca)
Subject: Re: Re: was off-list to Diana...now on-list
P%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
There are concepts that some people find difficult to accept. One is that
children may choose abusive parents. First, one has to consider karma.
(snip)
Walden: "First one *has* to consider karma." That line and the Anthro
definition should be front and centre in all Waldorf promotional material.
This concept is fundamental to the movement and in my opinion it is
unacceptable and irresponsible to hide it from parents at Waldorf schools.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 00:35:35 -0800
From: Debra Snell (snell gv.net)
Subject: RE: Re: was off-list to Diana...now on-list
)
)P%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
)There are concepts that some people find difficult to accept. One is
)that children may choose abusive parents. First, one has to consider
)karma.
Debra:
Yeah right. Children need top be protected from these kind of
behaviors. Period. Forget karma, it is a whole new day.
) And it would be important to remember that the idea of karma is
)derived form Hindu religion and is not something new made up by the
)spiritual science.
So this makes it right??!!! Call me the child protector police. I'll
call every time.
)The ideal for a Hindu is liberation (mukti) from the samsara, i.e.
)the painful series of lives conditioned by the fruit of our actions
)(karman) made in a previous life. The subject of the samsara is the
)perennial responsible of its unhappiness, because he is paying in
)every life for the errors and sins commited in a previous life.
Hogwash. You have been brainwashed to think like this. For the
record, this is wrong thinking. Babies are innocent. They are
everyone's business and must be protected. Don't allow this kind of
thinking to screw you up. Right and wrong are clear cut. Stand up to
it!
)The origin of samsara is Ignorance (a-vidya), parallel to the
)christian 'original sin'. Therefore, Knowledge (vidya) will put an
)end to the series of lives. This is not an intellectual knowledge
)but is the intuition of identity of each one (atman) with Brahman.
)When the individual is disincarnated is able to realize the identity
)with the I, by dissolving all human determinations.
More hogwash. Anyone else's alarms going off here? Wrong thinking
alert! People with this kind of thinking should not become parents.
)At that point he/she is the true subject (Purusha). The decisions of
)the true subject are made here according to our karma and have the
)character of objectivity. Despite the fact that from the human point
)of view they may be very painful, these events are prepared by the I
)together with those who will take part to it, according to karma.
Excuses. Parents have a huge responsibility and they MUST be willing
to stand up and be accounted for. No parent should turn over their
keys to anyone! (Especially you guys!)
)For a Buddhist as well it is obvious that 'every object or event
)that I find in front of me, is just a symbol of my destiny, of the
)karman that I myself have prepared with my own hands.'
Take your crooked thinking elsewhere. No offense intended. I just
like kids a whole lot. I worry about lost parents and how they may
fall for such crap, all in the name of good parenting.
--
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 683
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Spot the Difference #2
By mysplum earthlink.net
Re: Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure
By mysplum earthlink.net
RE: Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
Re: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
By Gary GoodWinter.com
Re: Connecticut Waldorf Schools--New York Times
By sandra.schlick balcab.ch
Re: Legitimizing Racist Doctrine by Attending Waldorf
By sandra.schlick balcab.ch
RE: Karma in the classroom (was: off-list to Diana)
By Winters_Diana hotmail.com
RE: Re: was off-list to Diana...now on-list
By dan dandugan.com
Pythagorean school
By dan dandugan.com
karma and anthroposophy
By pstaud hotmail.com
perception
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
RE: perception
By harlanfamily earthlink.net
Anthro/Christianity
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
RE: karma and anthroposophy
By harlanfamily earthlink.net
RE: Anthro/Christianity
By sjgreen seidata.com
Re: Rudolf Steiner Institute brochure
By mysplum earthlink.net
RE: Re: was off-list to Diana...now on-list
By sufrito53 yahoo.com
RE: Re: was off-list to Diana...now on-list
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: karma and anthroposophy
By Percedol netscape.net
RE: karma and anthroposophy
By Percedol netscape.net
Re: karma and anthroposophy
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
Re: was off-list to Diana...now on-list
By sandra.schlick balcab.ch
Re: perception
By awaldenpond shaw.ca
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 08:14:30 -0800
From: mysplum (mysplum earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: Spot the Difference #2
on 3/29/02 2:07 PM, Kathy Harlan at waldorf_kh hotmail.co