return to WCA Archive Index
-- Topica Digest --
RE: The cultural xenophobia of PLANS [Re: Dissolving confusion]
By sufrito53 yahoo.com
RE: The cultural xenophobia of PLANS [Re: Dissolving confusion]
By sufrito53 yahoo.com
Re: The Ethers and biology concepts in education
By pmfar hotmail.com
RE: The cultural xenophobia of PLANS [Re: Dissolving confusion]
By sufrito53 yahoo.com
Re: My Father and No Gurus
By pmfar hotmail.com
Re: My Father and No Gurus
By pmfar hotmail.com
RE: Religion and Mysticism and the truth
By sufrito53 yahoo.com
RE: Religion and Mysticism and the truth
By sufrito53 yahoo.com
RE: Religion and Mysticism and the truth part 5?
By sufrito53 yahoo.com
Re: The Ethers and biology concepts in education
By pmfar hotmail.com
Re: The Ethers and biology concepts in education
By pmfar hotmail.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1-May-2001 04:29:29 GMT
From: Su (sufrito53 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: The cultural xenophobia of PLANS [Re: Dissolving confusion]
Gary Bonhiver wrote:
) on 4/28/01 3:49 PM, Sune Nordwall at Sune.Nordwall home.se wrote:
)
) ) Su wrote:
) )
) )) Sune Nordwall wrote:
) ))) The recent argumentation on anthroposophy as having integrated and
) ))) spreading 'Zoroastrism' through Waldorf schools in US stands out as just
) ))) another expression of this xenophobia of PLANS.
) )
) ) Su:
) )) If they are doing this, it's not with the consent of the parents of the
) )) Waldorf students and that's what is buggin' !!!!!
) )
) ) If you beat up your children and your husband every Friday, it's not
) ) with either your husband's nor your children's consent and that's what
) ) is buggin .....
) )
) ) Sune Nordwall
) ) Stockholm, Sweden
)
)
) Sune, this is an interesting and very disturbing "example" that you are
) using to illustrate a point. I had an equally disturbing one thrown at
) me
) by Jo Ann on the Steiner98 list:
)
)
) ----------
) ) From: Jo Ann Schwartz (sr_joanna yahoo.com)
) ) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:47:00 -0700 (PDT)
) ) To: Gary GoodWinter.com
) ) Subject: Re: RV: Where is Steiner buried?
) )
) )
) )) Do you ever admit when you are wrong? Did Steiner ever admit it?
) )
) ) Ummm, and have you stopped beating your wife yet, Gary?
) )
) ) Inquiring minds want to know....
) )
) ) JoAnn
)
) Is this a common deflection tactic of Anthros, to offer a very nasty and
) false personal innuendo about someone in a debate to deflect attention
) from
) the real issue when the going gets tough? When I confronted Jo Ann on
) this,
) she said "It seemed as relevant as anything you posted..."
)
) (and in case any of you are wondering, no, I have never beaten my wife)
)
) ...Gary
)
Su here: Thanks Gary for pointing out this epidemiologic phenomenon in
the behavior of Anthroposophist behavior. I'm putting it in my little
black book...
- And, no, I haven't lately beaten anyone up...even with a wet
noodle...(read sarcasm, Sune, in case you don't pick up on it)
It's not over 'til it's over--Yogi Berra
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1-May-2001 04:33:54 GMT
From: Su (sufrito53 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: The cultural xenophobia of PLANS [Re: Dissolving confusion]
Gary Bonhiver wrote:
) on 4/29/01 4:13 AM, Sune Nordwall at Sune.Nordwall home.se wrote:
)
) ) Gary, you write:
) )
) )) on 4/28/01 3:49 PM, Sune Nordwall at Sune.Nordwall home.se wrote:
) ))
) ))) Su wrote:
) )))
) )))) Sune Nordwall wrote:
) ))))) The recent argumentation on anthroposophy as having integrated and
) ))))) spreading 'Zoroastrism' through Waldorf schools in US stands out as just
) ))))) another expression of this xenophobia of PLANS.
) )))
) ))) Su:
) )))) If they are doing this, it's not with the consent of the parents of the
) )))) Waldorf students and that's what is buggin' !!!!!
) )))
) ))) If you beat up your children and your husband every Friday, it's not
) ))) with either your husband's nor your children's consent and that's what
) ))) is buggin .....
) )
) )) Sune, this is an interesting and very disturbing "example" that you are
) )) using to illustrate a point. I had an equally disturbing one thrown at
) )) me
) )) by Jo Ann on the Steiner98 list:
) )
) ) [snip comparison with an argument between you and JoAnn on the list you
) ) mention]
) )
) ) You:
) )) Is this a common deflection tactic of Anthros, to offer a
) )) very nasty and false personal innuendo about someone in a
) )) debate to deflect attention from the real issue when the
) )) going gets tough?
) )
) ) I don't think 'nasty and false personal innuendos' are more common among
) ) 'Anthros' than among others debating.
) )
) ) I also think you misrepresent my argument.
) )
) ) In my case it was not a deflection tactic but an argument intended to
) ) demonstrate the rhetorical character of Su's argument by mirroring and
) ) exemplifying it using a variation of the maybe most known type of a
) ) similar type of it; 'have you stopped beating your wife yet?'
) )
) ) I assumed most are aquainted with it, thereby realizing I used it as a
) ) type argument and not as a personal argument about Su as a person, and
) ) just rewrote it slightly to make it possible to recognize the nature of
) ) Su's argument.
)
) Gary:
) But because you "personalized" it and broadcast it to a public list open
) to
) the world (including search engines), I consider it a serious ad
) homonym,
) and you owe Su an apology.
)
) )
) ) Regards,
) )
) ) Sune Nordwall
) ) Stockholm, Sweden
)
Su: Unfortunately, Sune, your little prosaic turns of phrase just don't
get you where you want to go.
Try a different tack; be direct and answer the question of why
Zoroastrianism *should* be taught to children without their parents
knowledge.Answer directly, if you dare!
It's not over 'til it's over--Yogi Berra
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 04:36:33 -0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (pmfar hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: The Ethers and biology concepts in education
Jeff talks abot skepticism and gullibility.
Peter responds not to everything that Jeff says but just a bit. If you look
at the history of science particularly over the last 200 years, you do not
see skepticism preventing new models from being investigated and adopted. In
fact I would argue that the very skepticism of scientists has allowed them
as a group to be about the most imaginative group and the group most willing
to embrace change within the cultures that they inhabit, contrary to the
view that you are suggesting.
Peter
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1-May-2001 04:39:38 GMT
From: Su (sufrito53 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: The cultural xenophobia of PLANS [Re: Dissolving confusion]
Sune Nordwall wrote:
) Gary, you wrote, commenting a posting by me:
)
) Me [Sune]:
) ) ) In my case it was not a deflection tactic but an argument intended to
) ) ) demonstrate the rhetorical character of Su's argument by mirroring and
) ) ) exemplifying it using a variation of the maybe most known type of a
) ) ) similar type of it; 'have you stopped beating your wife yet?'
) ) )
) ) ) I assumed most are aquainted with it, thereby realizing I used it as a
) ) ) type argument and not as a personal argument about Su as a person, and
) ) ) just rewrote it slightly to make it possible to recognize the nature of
) ) ) Su's argument.
) )
) ) Gary:
) ) But because you "personalized" it and broadcast it to a public list open
) ) to
) ) the world (including search engines), I consider it a serious ad
) ) homonym,
) ) and you owe Su an apology.
)
) As can be seen from my posting, its arguing on Su's posting was strictly
) stylized, using an extensively well known classical example from
) rhetoric as basis to show the purely rhetorical character of Su's
) comment.
)
) It probably was and is completely clear to all on the list from the
) context of the argumentation that it in no way implied that neither I
) nor anyone else on the list had or has any reason whatsoever to believe
) that Su, as a woman, beats up her husband, as man, and her children on
) Fridays ... Or you seriously mean that it is not completely clear to
) you?
)
) Are you looking for a reason to get back on me because you were thrown
) off an anthroposophical list of which I never even was a member, to my
) memory?
)
) ... But then, I once was thrown off this list for suggesting that a
) poster using 'Heytawin' as name on this list might have the gender of a
) 'cat', when his/her gender was a question on this list, as I had
) searched the net for the normal use of Heytawin, to see if it was a name
) normally referring to males or to females and not having come to any
) conclusive results, except for a cat with the name ...
)
) So what do you know?
)
) You did not find all the postings by me that you in a posting had
) referred to as 'oozing with racism' ...? If you don't, must that not be
) considered a much more serious direct personal ad hominem (racist!) than
) in a purely hypothetical way using a classical example from rhetoric as
) an illustration of an argument?
)
) Or you want to apologize to me?
)
) Regards,
)
) Sune Nordwall
Su: Unfortunately we've all lost you by now. But Still daring you to
answer my original question--Which you have not, by the way!
And Thanks Gary, for being a gentleman. From what I've gathered
(Something Anthroposophists don't necessarily have to be...)
It's not over 'til it's over--Yogi Berra
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 04:45:12 -0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (pmfar hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: My Father and No Gurus
Jeff:
)How one defines cult has become clearer in recent years by specialists in
)the field and obvious examples. To compare Steiner and his movement with
)Charlie Manson, Jim Jones, Elizabeth Claire Prophet, David Koresh, or Do
)and
)Me (UFO suicide cult in San Diego is reaaaaallly stretching it.
Peter:
My point about the comparison with Brunton in Jeffrey Masson's book concerns
the apparent unwillingness of many followers of Steiner to examine objective
evidence which calls into question their opinions and beliefs about him.
I think that unwillingness is clearly evident in all of the followers that I
have read who contribute to this list.
Peter
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 04:50:06 -0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (pmfar hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: My Father and No Gurus
I did not say he was greedy. But I am correct in saying that he did not have
to work for much of his life on anything other than anthroposophy. It is
also true that many people attended his lectures. He did not stop giving
them. I did not say there was anything wrong in being supported financially
for doing work thaty is perceived to be valuable, nor in gaining self
satisfaction or in enjoying the praise of those who think you do a good job.
You are telling me he did not do it for those reasons. Easily said. Very
difficult to prove.
Peter
)From: jeff auen (pacbay home.com)
)Reply-To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)Subject: Re: My Father and No Gurus
)Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 13:51:41 -0700
)
)
)This sort of testing should be done. It seems clear
) ) that the claims of many of them including Steiner fail that testing.
) ) In a previous posting which you may have missed, I argued that Steiner
)did
) ) indeed obtain personal gain and self-aggrandizement through his
)activities.
)
)When and where did his ego swell and the Carnegie millions flow through his
)coffers? He may have taken pride in starting something from nothing against
)great resistence; had great confidence in his being a spiritual innovator
)but if success is measured by numbers: money, members; and expansion, then
)he was a "failure" in the world. He was not a guru figure and constantly
)warned against it and vacant mysticism - I am One with God for Forever;
)just
)love your fellow man and all is will be peaceful, etc. There will always be
)those who will project upon him this status of authority but not guru. He
)was not a God or Master and no AP would claim this. Lets be fair now.
)
)A Brief reply or reference is okay. We must get some real work done.
)
)Jeff
)
)
)
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1-May-2001 05:00:06 GMT
From: Su (sufrito53 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Religion and Mysticism and the truth
Debra Snell wrote:
) )Jeff wrote:
) )
) ))Show me where he borrowed or twisted preexisting information, on
) ))say, the nature of the spiritual hierarchies and their activities on
) )))Earth
) ))and in the post mortem state, or reincarntional studies as in )Karmic
) ))Relationships volume 1-8. You may think he is a fraud but all )this came
) ))from "him" not some other source.
) )
) )Oh boy Jeff, you don't know what you just took on.
) )
) )Looking forward to Sharon's response!
) )Diana
)
) Debra:
)
) How funny, Diana! I thought the exact same thing! Sharon will take you
) on
) in a hot second. Jeff, how hard have you worked to find Steiner's
) insights
) any where else? Do you believe Steiner received his knowledge through
) his
) clairvoyant capacities? Aren't you into Rosicrucianism? Waldorf schools
) are
) occult mystery schools. Like Dan says, "It is ALL Anthroposophy, ALL the
) time." Read the WC archives.
)
)
) We have been promised a great debate between Sharon and Robert Flannery
) on
) this issue as soon as Robert Flannery's school lets out. So far, no one
) other than you and Robert has even disagreed with the research, and
) Robert
) just went away after we provided evidence to back up the claim. Sharon
) has
) peeled off every layer of Anthroposophy, and it is quite transparent
) once
) one understands it. Get your research skills in order. Sharon will tell
) you
) the books to buy. I'd start with 'The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and
) Secrets' by Barbara Walker. Then take any of Steiner's claims about the
) spirit world and find out where his ideas REALLY came from. It isn't
) rocket science and I dare you to explore a bit deeper than Steiner.
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
) Jeff, do you have children in Waldorf?
Su here: All great minds-- Sharon, Debra, Diana-- think alike !!
It's not over 'til it's over--Yogi Berra
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1-May-2001 05:06:50 GMT
From: Su (sufrito53 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Religion and Mysticism and the truth
soma mwt.net wrote:
)
)
) ) )Jeff wrote:
) ) )
) ) ))Show me where he borrowed or twisted preexisting information, on
) ) ))say, the nature of the spiritual hierarchies and their activities on
) ) )))Earth
) ) ))and in the post mortem state, or reincarntional studies as in )Karmic
) ) ))Relationships volume 1-8. You may think he is a fraud but all )this came
) ) ))from "him" not some other source.
)
) Sharon:
) Read "Rosicrucianism and Modern Initiation, Mystery Centres of theMiddle
) Ages"
) by Rudolf Steiner where Steiner gives some of his sources, namely
) occultists
) from as early as the 9th century on through the ages. Steiner mentions
) some of
) his sources by name, for example Albertus Magnus, Eliphas Levi, Raimon
) Lull,
) Pico Della Mirandola, Agrippa of Nettesheim, etc. *If* you believe in
) reincarnation, and you believe that Steiner is a great Western Initiate,
) well
) then Jeff, you may be correct. If Jesus was the reincarnation of
) Zarathrustra.....and Steiner was the reincarnation of Enkidu, the first
) man,
) then perhaps all this mumbo jumbo is from Steiner after all?
)
)
Su: It's not over 'til it's over--Yogi Berra (Right on Yogi!--I should
say Sharon!!)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1-May-2001 05:21:04 GMT
From: Su (sufrito53 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Religion and Mysticism and the truth part 5?
jeff auen wrote:
) I have read these works more than once as well as over 1000 lectures and
) nearly all his written books in English (apart from lectures) and he
) makes constant references to other occultists and esotericists but
) within the context of the Mystery Tradition as a whole which he claims
) he is but one stepping stone and not the last word (though he does lay
) special claim to Anthroposophy as being the best expression of this
) tradition now- which I do not necessary agree with). In fact, he
) mentioned on occasion, that APs who not recognize the next step this
) movement would take in the future.
)
) His insights about all these past individuals and their contributions
) (and possible errors handed down over the centuries) are well known.
) His weaving of a historical tapestry connecting past individuals
) together with changes in intellectual and spiritual change is part of
) his evolutionary progression model of human evolution and cultural
) development.
)
) G. Harrison's work, The Transcendental Universe written during Steiner
) life is another independent source verifying that Steiner knew what he
) was talking about. Harrison was an complete anomaly in that he belonged
) to no group or school yet somehow achieved "metaphysical access" and
) experience of the so-called unknown realms spoken of in mystical
) literature. He describes in detail the very same things Steiner spoke of
) . Their similarities are not due to plagiarism or borrowing because the
) details are presented from a different angle and with direct distinctive
) references that only one observing something can know. I suggest you
) read Occult Movements of the 19th Century and Harrison's work to see the
) similarities and agreements. To my knowledge they did not know each
) other personally and never spoke about each other.
)
) The book, God in My Adventure by Rom Landau is another good reference
) from 1935 (now out of print). Instead of borrowing from second and third
) hand reports about Steiner and others (as we must do), he actually
) interviewed him and spend time with him as journalist. He interviewed
) virtually every "mystic" and cult leader in the 20's and 30's from
) Steiner to Meher Baba to Gurdjieff to Krishnamutri to Bo Yin Ra and
) Count Kyserling.. He found Steiner to be one of the most credible, if
) not the most, among all those teaching at the time.
)
) The proof in the pudding is duplication of results not just in
) assertions. Did he or didn't he attain to something akin to peers and
) others in the field. There were other peers at that time and shortly
) after: Dion Fortune, Max Heindel, Manly Palmer Hall, Harrison, Eduard
) Suare, a young Gurdjieff, Meher Baba, Krishnamutri (who sensibly left
) the Theosophical Society and its problems behind at a young age); et.
) al. And many since have generated elementary but similar results by
) using some of his or traditional spiritual disciplines : In Steiner's
) case, for example, he describes in detail certain phenomena a
) practitioner may encounter when undergoing spiritual training e.g..
) currents that are activated in the physical body; changes in heat and
) cold; changes in diet and its effect on the body and consciousness; how
) alcohol and caffeine impact consciousness; changes in dream life from
) meditation; changes in memory from normal to more visual and panoramic,
) etc.. These and other results can be tested for oneself if true or not.
) They are outlined in Guidance in Esoteric Training and Effects of
) Esoteric Training on the Bodies of Man and a variety of other "schools".
) I have never seen these reference before in any literature or talks
) pre-dating Steiner.
)
)
) As for Steiner's past lives. This is a chuckle. Even on Steiner oriented
) lists there are arguments about the claims of some authors and followers
) as to his "past lives".As far as I know, he never said specifically but
) let out a hint here and there but never spent much time on it. His
) proponents take a certain pride in associating him with Thomas Aquinas,
) though. I do not take one AP source as gospel since its often
) speculative or trying to tie loose ends together, which there are an
) abundance.
)
) Jeff
Su: For a part-timer, you sure sound like a full-timer
(Anthroposophist/Waldorfer) to me!!
Been to the "Branch" lately?
It's not over 'til it's over--Yogi Berra
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 05:51:43 -0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (pmfar hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: The Ethers and biology concepts in education
I think this is the study Jeff was suggesting I look at.
Harris WS. Gowda M. Kolb JW. Strychacz CP. Vacek JL. Jones PG. Forker A.
O'Keefe JH. McCallister BD.
"A randomized, controlled trial of the effects of remote, intercessory
prayer on outcomes in patients admitted to the coronary care unit"
Archives of Internal Medicine. 159(19):2273-2278, 1999 Oct 25.
Abstract
Context: Intercessory prayer (praying for others) has been a common response
to sickness for millennia, but it has received little scientific attention.
The positive findings of a previous controlled trial of intercessory prayer
have yet to be replicated.
Objective: To determine whether remote, intercessory prayer for
hospitalized, cardiac patients will reduce overall adverse events and length
of stay. Design: Randomized, controlled, double-blind,
prospective,parallel-group trial. Setting: Private, university-associated
hospital. Patients: Nine hundred ninety consecutive patients who were newly
admitted to the coronary care unit (CCU). Intervention: At the time of
admission, patients were randomized to receive remote, intercessory prayer
(prayer group) or not (usual care group). The first names of patients in the
prayer group were given to a team of outside intercessors who prayed for
them daily for 4 weeks. Patients were unaware that they were being prayed
for, and the intercessors did not know and never met the patients. Main
Outcome Measures: The medical course from CCU admission to hospital
discharge was summarized in a CCU course score derived from blinded,
retrospective chart review. Results: Compared with the usual care group (n =
524),the prayer group (n = 466) had lower mean +/- SEM weighted (6.35 +/-
0.26 vs 7.13 +/- 0.27; P = .04) and
unweighted (2.7 +/- 0.1 vs 3.0 +/- 0.1; P = .04) CCU course scores.
Lengths of CCU and hospital stays were not different. Conclusions: Remote,
intercessory prayer was associated with lower CCU course scores. This result
suggests that prayer may be an effective adjunct to standard medical care.
[References: 24]
There is also this paper which attempts to review the available evidence.
Astin JA. Harkness E. Ernst E.
"The efficacy of "distant healing": A systematic review of randomized
trials"
Annals of Internal Medicine. 132(11):903-910, 2000 Jun 6.
Abstract
Purpose: To conduct a systematic review of the available data on the
efficacy of any form of "distant healing" (prayer, mental healing,
Therapeutic Touch, or spiritual healing) as treatment for any medical
condition. Data Sources: Studies were identified by an electronic search of
the MEDLINE, PsychLIT, EMBASE, CISCOM, and Cochrane Library databases from
their inception to the end of 1999 and by contact with researchers in the
field. Study Selection: Studies with the following features were included:
random assignment, placebo or other adequate control, publication in
peer-reviewed journals, clinical (rather than experimental) investigations,
and use of human participants. Data Extraction: Two investigators
independently extracted data on study design, sample size, type of
intervention, type of control, direction of effect (supporting or refuting
the hypothesis), and nature of the outcomes. Data Synthesis: A total of 23
trials involving 2774 patients met the inclusion criteria and were analyzed.
Heterogeneity of the studies precluded a formal meta-analysis. Of the
trials, 5 examined prayer as the distant healing intervention, 11 assessed
noncontact Therapeutic Touch, and 7 examined other forms of distant healing.
Of the 23 studies, 13 (57%) yielded statistically significant treatment
effects, 9 showed no effect over control interventions, and 1 showed a
negative effect. Conclusions: The methodologic limitations of several
studies make it difficult to draw definitive conclusions about the efficacy
of distant healing. However, given that approximately 57% of trials showed a
positive treatment effect, the evidence thus far merits further study.
[References: 52]
Can we draw any conclusions? I think this analysis suggests that at best the
data supporting the efficacy of remote prayer is weak. Both of these papers
are relatively recent, so I suspect further work will come.
Peter
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 06:09:07 -0000
From: "Peter Farrell" (pmfar hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: The Ethers and biology concepts in education
Peter responds more to Jeff comments on gullibility and skepticism.
I want to come back to Waldorf and Anthroposophy. What we see with both of
these is an unwillingness by practitioners of Waldorf education,
Anthroposophical medical practice, and Biodynamic agriculture to use the
objective tools available in modern science and statistics to test the
claims made. After 75 years of Waldorf education there are no studies of the
outcomes. Why not?
Let's try this for example.
Carpenter-Boggs L. Kennedy AC. Reganold JP.
"Organic and biodynamic management: Effects on soil biology"
Soil Science Society of America Journal. 64(5):1651-1659, 2000 Sep-Oct.
Abstract:
Biodynamic agriculture is a unique organic farming system that
utilizes, in addition to the common tools of organic agriculture, specific
fermented herbal preparations as compost additives and field sprays. The
objective of this work was to determine whether biodynamic compost or field
spray preparations affect the soil biological community in the short term,
beyond the effects of organic management. Four fertilizer options: (i)
composted dairy manure and bedding (organic fertilization), (ii) the same
material composted with biodynamic compost preparations, (iii) mineral
fertilizers, and (iv) no fertilizer were investigated with and without the
biodynamic field spray preparations. Both biodynamic and nonbiodynamic
composts increased soil microbial biomass, respiration, dehydrogenase
activity, soil C mineralized in 10 d (MinC), earthworm (Lumbricus
terrestris) population and biomass, and metabolic quotient of respiration
per unit biomass (qCO(2)) by the second year of study. No significant
differences were found between soils fertilized with biodynamic vs.
nonbiodynamic compost. Use of biodynamic field sprays was associated with
more MinC and minor differences in soil microbial fatty acid profiles in the
first year of study. There were no other observed effects of the biodynamic
preparations. Organically and biodynamically managed soils had similar
microbial status and were more biotically active than soils that did not
receive organic fertilization. Organic management enhanced soil biological
activity, but additional use of the biodynamic preparations did not
significantly affect the soil biotic parameters tested.
Will this study have any effect on any of the practitioners of Biodynamic
agriculture? How many are aware of it? How many others are there in the peer
reviewed literature? Are they referenced in Biodynamical publications? When
they are supportive? When they are negative?
I am perfectly happy for people to believe things. I do myself. But when
evidence aout belief becomes available it should not be ignored. Moreover,
if the belief is reasonably easy to test why not?
Peter
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 265
-- Topica Digest --
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier -
III/III
By soma mwt.net
Re: The Ethers and biology concepts in education
By winters_diana hotmail.com
RE: more on anthroposophy and theosophy
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier -
III/III
By alice javanet.com
Steiner and medical training
By pacbay home.com
Weil on Iscador
By steve premofine.com
Re: more on anthroposophy and theosophy
By pacbay home.com
Re: The Ethers and biology concepts in education
By pacbay home.com
Re: Religion and Mysticism and the truth part 5?
By pacbay home.com
Re: Steiner and medical training
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: The Ethers and biology concepts in education
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: Religion and Mysticism and the truth part 5?
By soma mwt.net
Re: Steiner and medical training
By snell netshel.net
Re: more on anthroposophy and theosophy
By winters_diana hotmail.com
RE: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier
By rbc supranet.com
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier -
III/
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
RE: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
By rbc supranet.com
Re: more on anthroposophy and theosophy
By pacbay home.com
Re: Steiner and medical training
By pacbay home.com
Re: Steiner and medical training
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: The cultural xenophobia of PLANS [Re: Dissolving confusion]
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 08:37:58 -0700
From: soma (soma mwt.net)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier -
III/III
) Sune:
)
) In this keeping of conscious untruths in their material at the site of
) PLANS, Peter Staudenmaier and Dan Dugan stand out as brothers in spirit.
Sharon:
Dear, dear Sune. Your arguments are weak, weak, weak. It doesn't take but a
half wit to read Steiner and to come to the same conclusions as Peter and
Dan. I've never read so much drivel, racism and propaganda as I have since
falling in with a bunch of Anthroposophists and reading Steiner. Please add
me to your list of "brothers in spirit". I will stand tall along side Peter
and Dan and Truth.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 13:31:11 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: The Ethers and biology concepts in education
Jeff thinks "alternative models" should be taught in Waldorf, because he
studied them as part of the "history of science" in college. I explain that
Waldorf does nothing resembling "history of science"; things like the four
elements, Bible stories (examples) are taught as fact, by immersion,
appealing to the senses, not the brain. Committed to memory, illustrated,
recited, acted out, etc. - *not* open to inquiry or comparison.
Jeff said:
)I agree with you! Waldorf has a background intent and it needs to be
)redefined and made clear to parents.
By "agreeing," are you saying, that the schools *should* immerse the
children, should present "alterntive models" in an uncritical way, should
never encourage a recognition of different viewpoints - i.e., Waldorf
*should* be anthroposophic Sunday school - only they should explain all this
to the parents first? If so, how does this fit with your admiration for the
"history of science" (or religion) approach?
Or are you saying you agree with me that these alternatives should be
presented in some kind of critical framework? ("Critical" perhaps being too
strong a term; I'm not suggesting third graders, for instance, should
"criticize" Bible stories - only that if you want to do a "comparative
religion" type thing, you can't present them as universal truth, but must
explain that there are many world religions.)
If you would like this approach, surely you understand that it is not
Waldorf? In Waldorf, the children must hear these stories, the stories must
"live in" them, must be felt by the children to be "true," because they are
supposed to represent a universal stage in the children's consciousness that
corresponds - or so Waldorf, due to its parochialism, believes - to a stage
thought to be part of humanity's development as a whole.
All that is supposedly ruined if the teacher says, "These are
Judeo-Christian beliefs, now the Muslims, they tell a different story." To
step back that much from it, look at it in relation to something else, would
be "intellectualizing" the children (basically it would mean they might
*not* accept the stories as true).
Which did you mean, Jeff?
Diana
)The kids live it and breathe it, copy it in their books, illustrate )it,
)embellish the borders nicely, and that's that.
)If you're going to do this "open-mindedness" thing, you also have to
)encourage the kids to develop - or at least not squash - the skills to
)sort things out for themselves. Otherwise it's not far from
) )indoctrination, or at best a confusing mishmash.
)It's Sunday school: tell a story, illustrate the story, kids go home
) )believing the story.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 13:41:19 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: more on anthroposophy and theosophy
Sune [re: racial characteristics]:
)Some of those bodily characteristics he describes in the lectures,
) )pointing out some of the patterns characterising them.
Peter S.:
)You don't really believe these "patterns" exist, do you?
Peter, he must believe it. As I pointed out before, in a post Sune did not
answer, the whole business is based on trying to explain things like why
Ethiopians aren't as good at "head-based thinking" as whites. Only if you
accept these racist stereotypes, is there any need for theories to explain
them, spiritual or otherwise! Only an audience who accepted these premises
would be sitting still for these lectures.
I'll ask again, Sune, do you think it's true Ethiopians (for instance) are
not as inclined to "head thinking" as whites? Do you think this is something
an individual Ethiopian must "transcend his race" in order to overcome?
Or perhaps you are going to tell me that the Ethiopian's "instinctual"
thinking (or some such) is preferable, and that whites need to overcome our
tendency to "head thinking," so whew, Steiner really liked Ethiopians, how
can we call him racist?
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 10:58:13 -0400
From: alice (alice javanet.com)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier -
III/III
[Alice responds from a naive perspective..]
No one answered my question about Steiner's medical training..(or I
missed it..)
Is it presumed that he received his medication instruction from the
angels?
I also wonder, in trying to follow the "dialogue" between Sune and
Peter, what did Steiner DO to help resist the nazis?
If he did not preach racism (and perhaps he did, it seems the
translation makes it nearly impossible to extract exactly what he meant.
convenient..) did he use his influence and power to help defeat the nazi
movement at the time? If he did not, did he feel guilty like other
protestant religious leaders who later regretted their lack of
leadership? Why wasn't he a martyr for the resistance if he believed in
karma?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 08:58:56 -0700
From: "jeff auen" (pacbay home.com)
Subject: Steiner and medical training
Steiner did not receive any medical training to my knowledge. He did not
have the Archangel Michael teach him either.
His first medical/educational "training" occurred while a tutor of a child
with severe learning problems (water on the brain and swelling). Through
observation and experimentation he taught this child to read and use his
cognitive skills and eventually brought him back to "normal". He went on to
become a doctor and if I recall died in WWI. His knowledge of human
physiology and anatomy came through private study and his "spiritual
observations" while observing people and "seeing" deficiencies". Instead of
reading pulses and interpreting illness like an acupuncturist, he was able
to see into the body (and his own) and understand its inner functions. He
never claimed to be a medical doctor or diagnosed people per se.
Jeff Auen
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 08:56:52 -0700
From: "Steve Premo" (steve premofine.com)
Subject: Weil on Iscador
Here is Dr. Andrew Weil's written comment on Iscador, from his web page:
) As I understand it, actress Suzanne Somers revealed this past March
) that she had been diagnosed with breast cancer a year earlier. She had
) a lumpectomy to remove the tumor, followed by a course of radiation
) therapy. However, Ms. Somers said that she had rejected chemotherapy in
) favor of Iscador, an extract of European mistletoe that she will inject
) into her abdomen every day for five years. Iscador is used as an
) adjunctive cancer treatment in Europe and Japan to help stimulate the
) immune system and increase the body's defenses. I would be nervous
) about relying on it as a primary treatment for breast cancer. Instead,
) I would lean toward doing the chemotherapy and using other treatments
) to reduce toxicity and increase general health. I might consider
) Iscador as an adjunctive treatment.
)
) When she first spoke publicly about her breast cancer and treatment
) decision, Ms. Somers erred in calling Iscador a "homeopathic"
) treatment. It's not. It's a total extract of European mistletoe (Viscum
) album), developed in 1922. The main proponents of Iscador are
) anthroposophic physicians, those who follow the tradition established
) by Austrian philosopher Rudolf Steiner a Christian mystic and student
) of Eastern as well as Western spiritual traditions. Anthroposophic
) medicine takes into account the spiritual and physical components of an
) illness. Steiner's followers have created a network of schools,
) hospitals, and nursing homes throughout Europe and the United States.
) Although classified as an alternative treatment, Iscador is now the
) most widely used cancer medicine in Germany today.
)
) In animal studies, Iscador has reduced tumor growth, and some results
) have suggested that it may help lessen the side effects of chemotherapy
) and radiation therapy. In the United States, the FDA requires that
) before clinical trials can be launched, researchers must file an
) Investigational New Drug (IND) application. So far, no such
) applications have been announced for Iscador.
)
) However, an article appearing in the May/June 2001 issue of Alternative
) Therapies in Health and Medicine is positive. It reported the results
) of a long-term German epidemiological study of 10,266 cancer patients.
) Of these, 1,668 were treated with Iscador, and the rest had either
) taken other mistletoe products or received no form of mistletoe
) treatment. The researchers looked at survival time, which turned out to
) be longer-roughly 40 percent longer-in the Iscador patients compared to
) the others. The study concluded that Iscador treatment can prolong
) survival time in cancer patients.
)
) When she explained her decision to reject chemotherapy in favor of
) Iscador, Ms. Somers said she had learned that both chemotherapy and
) Iscador would be 98 percent effective in preventing a breast cancer
) recurrence and said she chose Iscador in order to avoid the side
) effects of chemotherapy. I'm afraid that is misleading. To my
) knowledge, while chemotherapy for early breast cancer does
) substantially improve prospects for survival, in no case is that
) promise as high as 98 percent. However, I would still advise breast
) cancer patients to opt for chemotherapy when their physicians recommend
) it.
So Iscador is the most widely used cancer therapy in Germany today, and at
least some studies have shown it to be effective as an adjunct therapy.
Interesting.
One problem is that Anthroposophists tend to look at something like this
and say, "See! Anthroposophy works!" when it's really only one thing that
may have potential, while many other things, like biodynamic soil
preparations, have failed the test.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"There is a right and a wrong in the Universe and
that distinction is not difficult to make." - Superman
http://www.premofine.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 09:21:02 -0700
From: "jeff auen" (pacbay home.com)
Subject: Re: more on anthroposophy and theosophy
I think I am going to throw some lava on the fire here . Victorian views of
culture and race as deplorable and indefensible. But from a metaphysical
point of view there is something else to consider which Steiner did and
didn't at times- body, soul and spirit. If a culture remains isolated as
many were before the 1850's or had limited contact with other more
"advanced" cultures, they would continue to function within the confines of
their customs, beliefs, genetics and environment. Desert nomads are not
going to take up long distance running in 110 degree heat as native rain
forest people in Amazon are not going to build pyramind cities like the
Incas or Aztecs who lived in a different terrain. When one culture either
invades, conquers or mixes with another, genetic, racial, and environmental
create change (like getting the idea to move away from subfreezing or dry
conditions) and this change can manifest in improved intelligence, different
ways of thinking, creativity, synthesis of culture as in pre-modern Spain,
Mexico or Japan. Thus race/culture is dramatically altered and thus engage
in any activity any other culture or "race" can. Case in point: the
emergence of Chinese and East Indian cultures in the tech field. And another
element comes into to play which most here will not buy but here it is:
there is a psycho-spiritual exchange as well which creates new thinking,
perceptual changes (as with the American and Mexican Indian cultures going
from nature orientation to adopting dominant culture values), cognitive
adjustments, etc.
This is simple and elementary anthropology.
Thus someone looking at race and culture from a spiritual and
anthropological point of view would see emerging changes through culture
and racial interactions but also dominant racial and envrionment traits if a
culture remains consistnet over time and unchanging like Tibet and large
rural portions of India and Africa.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 6:41 AM
Subject: RE: more on anthroposophy and theosophy
)
) Sune [re: racial characteristics]:
) )Some of those bodily characteristics he describes in the lectures,
) ) )pointing out some of the patterns characterising them.
)
) Peter S.:
) )You don't really believe these "patterns" exist, do you?
)
) Peter, he must believe it. As I pointed out before, in a post Sune did not
) answer, the whole business is based on trying to explain things like why
) Ethiopians aren't as good at "head-based thinking" as whites. Only if you
) accept these racist stereotypes, is there any need for theories to explain
) them, spiritual or otherwise! Only an audience who accepted these premises
) would be sitting still for these lectures.
)
) I'll ask again, Sune, do you think it's true Ethiopians (for instance) are
) not as inclined to "head thinking" as whites? Do you think this is
something
) an individual Ethiopian must "transcend his race" in order to overcome?
)
) Or perhaps you are going to tell me that the Ethiopian's "instinctual"
) thinking (or some such) is preferable, and that whites need to overcome
our
) tendency to "head thinking," so whew, Steiner really liked Ethiopians, how
) can we call him racist?
)
) Diana
)
)
) _________________________________________________________________
) Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
)
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 09:41:37 -0700
From: "jeff auen" (pacbay home.com)
Subject: Re: The Ethers and biology concepts in education
No, Diana, I said, I agree with you. Waldorf is stalled in time and concept.
I genuinely think if Steiner were alive he would junk most of the rigid
rules and curriculum guidelines and create something relevant to the times.
There are profound insights and discoveries within the system but as I have
said, I am a revisionist not a blinded proponent. And I would encourage the
development of entirely new schools without using Waldorf "philosophy" but
emphasizes some of the goals- new social skills and outlooks, language arts,
focus on balancing the arts, humanities and sciences, teaching kids how to
fix things, garden, respect the earth, and so on. I would rather have a
child know how to fix a tire or rewire a light switch and garden than play
Nintendo or fast finger a TV remote. My mother taught me how to sew though I
don't but I can fix nearly any tear or button coming loose (rather than
throwing something away).
I will try to back up some things I see as good but will try to defend the
indefensible. My point is: encourage and support creative and independent
thinking. This apparently is not cherished fully in Waldorf and in
conventional education or our society in general. Everyone wants crisp
little answers to questions and often cannot say, well, I really do not
know, lets explore this further.
jeff
)
) Or are you saying you agree with me that these alternatives should be
) presented in some kind of critical framework? ("Critical" perhaps being
too
) strong a term; I'm not suggesting third graders, for instance, should
) "criticize" Bible stories - only that if you want to do a "comparative
) religion" type thing, you can't present them as universal truth, but must
) explain that there are many world religions.)
)
) If you would like this approach, surely you understand that it is not
) Waldorf? In Waldorf, the children must hear these stories, the stories
must
) "live in" them, must be felt by the children to be "true," because they
are
) supposed to represent a universal stage in the children's consciousness
that
) corresponds - or so Waldorf, due to its parochialism, believes - to a
stage
) thought to be part of humanity's development as a whole.
)
) All that is supposedly ruined if the teacher says, "These are
) Judeo-Christian beliefs, now the Muslims, they tell a different story." To
) step back that much from it, look at it in relation to something else,
would
) be "intellectualizing" the children (basically it would mean they might
) *not* accept the stories as true).
)
) Which did you mean, Jeff?
)
) Diana
)
)
) )The kids live it and breathe it, copy it in their books, illustrate )it,
) )embellish the borders nicely, and that's that.
)
) )If you're going to do this "open-mindedness" thing, you also have to
) )encourage the kids to develop - or at least not squash - the skills to
) )sort things out for themselves. Otherwise it's not far from
) ) )indoctrination, or at best a confusing mishmash.
)
) )It's Sunday school: tell a story, illustrate the story, kids go home
) ) )believing the story.
)
) _________________________________________________________________
) Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 09:52:44 -0700
From: "jeff auen" (pacbay home.com)
Subject: Re: Religion and Mysticism and the truth part 5?
Nice try. I read most of this during and just after college for my work on
comparative mysticism and religion at UW Madison and Wayne State in
Michigan. . I have also read the Secret Doctrine and much of Blavaksty's
works, the Bible, the Upanishads, much of Manly Palmer Hall works including
his opus written when he was 26, most of Alan Watts, need I go on. A scholar
I am not, but if I find value in something I read on and learn more. There
is much in Steiner that is uninque, interesting, befuddling and innovative,
just my cup of tea. Organizations are not.
)
) Su: For a part-timer, you sure sound like a full-timer
) (Anthroposophist/Waldorfer) to me!!
) Been to the "Branch" lately?
)
)
) It's not over 'til it's over--Yogi Berra
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 17:06:53 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Steiner and medical training
Surely this post was a joke? Not even sure it's worth replying to, maybe I
should just shake my head in amazement?
Jeff:
)Steiner did not receive any medical training to my knowledge. He did )not
)have the Archangel Michael teach him either.
There you go. He didn't have medical training (though a few days ago you
referred to him as having "not much" medical training).
Now what are you bothering with this for:
)His first medical/educational "training"
but he didn't have any, remember?
)occurred while a tutor of a child with severe learning problems (water )on
)the brain and swelling).
(cough, cough) as Sarina would say. Tutoring is not medical training. Hello?
It's not "educational training," either; as long as we're on the subject,
Steiner didn't have educational training either. None. Tutoring one child
isn't educational training. Guess I'm repeating myself.
)Through observation and experimentation he taught this child to read )and
)use his cognitive skills and eventually brought him back to )"normal". He
)went on to become a doctor
Are you for real? Are you hoping it will somehow come across that he was a
doctor even though we have clearly established: STEINER WAS NOT A DOCTOR.
)His knowledge of human physiology and anatomy came through private )study
)and his "spiritual observations" while observing people and )"seeing"
)deficiencies".
Coughing again. I don't trust myself or family members to medical care by
someone who got their knowledge of human physiology and anatomy through
"private study." (Will just leave the "spiritual observation" thing alone.)
Do you think we are stupid, or are you just this gullible? I just can't
believe you would write this post trying to make Steiner sound like sort of,
kind of a doctor, or maybe acting a lot like a doctor, having "knowledge of
physiology and anatomy," probably no better than most of us got in 10th
grade biology, even having the gall to refer to his "medical and educational
training" when the bald fact is he didn't have any!
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 17:22:23 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: The Ethers and biology concepts in education
)No, Diana, I said, I agree with you. Waldorf is stalled in time and
) )concept.
Jeff, you're a slippery one. You still didn't answer my question. You speak
in generalities about "revisionism," bringing Waldorf up to date. All the
stuff you speak of below is exactly what Waldorf advertises, and exactly
what most of the prospective parents here thought our kids were getting when
we put them in Waldorf (encourage creative thinking; respect the earth;
learn to sew; avoid Nintendo). Do you write Waldorf brochures?
If you want to throw out the immersion-only mode of teaching anthroposophic
concepts through appeal to the senses - story, song, dance, puppets, music -
and give kids a chance to put things in perspective, analyze, compare, etc.,
then you are throwing out the most cherished Steinerism in Waldorf - the
basis of a Waldorf elementary education - that children under 14 should
basically not use their brains. You'd be fired if you were a Waldorf
teacher.
I really don't think this is what you are advocating. And I think that's why
you won't say so. I get the feeling I am being "agreed" with to end that
line of discussion?
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 12:36:54 -0700
From: soma (soma mwt.net)
Subject: Re: Religion and Mysticism and the truth part 5?
jeff auen wrote:
) Nice try. I read most of this during and just after college for my work on
) comparative mysticism and religion at UW Madison
Sharon:
Was Joanna Guthrie's son a teacher of yours at UW Madison? Just interested
because I unearthed a lot of information about them while researching Steiner.
Joanna had a strong connection to my neck of the woods, she owned a farm here
and was also an influence in the founding of the Waldorf school that duped our
family. She started, as you must know, The Ovens of Brittany in Madison which
finally closed their doors a few months ago after 30 years. Joanna died a
homeless, mentally unsound person about a year or so ago, some say from the
spiritual path she chose. Some of the old timers here in SW Wisconsin really
had a problem with her. Anyway, her son is a teacher at UW Mad. philosophy
dept.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 11:03:04 -0700
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: Steiner and medical training
)Steiner did not receive any medical training to my knowledge. He did not
)have the Archangel Michael teach him either.
)His first medical/educational "training" occurred while a tutor of a child
)with severe learning problems (water on the brain and swelling).
Debra:
Hydrocephalus does not always mean "severe learning problems" exist. At
least 2/3's of this population have at least normal intelligence. I have
always been suspect of Steiner's claim that he took a severe learning
disabled child and prepared him for college using Waldorf techniques. I'd
say that this child was just a victim of his times.
Through
)observation and experimentation he taught this child to read and use his
)cognitive skills and eventually brought him back to "normal". He went on to
)become a doctor and if I recall died in WWI. His knowledge of human
)physiology and anatomy came through private study and his "spiritual
)observations" while observing people and "seeing" deficiencies". Instead of
)reading pulses and interpreting illness like an acupuncturist, he was able
)to see into the body (and his own) and understand its inner functions. He
)never claimed to be a medical doctor or diagnosed people per se.
)
Debra:
See? This makes no sense at all. Someone with severe learning disabilities
just can't be "brought back to normal." Just another snake oil treatment
story where the facts just don't match Steiner's claim.
I worked in Special Ed for 13 years...
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 18:22:55 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: more on anthroposophy and theosophy
Jeff wrote a long post about how cultures differ from one another,
summarized as "elementary anthropology."
The missing pieces are why any of this would have anything to do with
physical characteristics of a race of people, rather than just environment
and culture:
)Desert nomads are not going to take up long distance running in 110 )degree
)heat as native rain forest people in Amazon are not going to )build
)pyramind cities
Right. Desert nomads do not run long distances in 100 degree heat because it
is too hot. Not because their race is not physically or spiritually inclined
toward long distance running.
And yes, if they are conquered by or start intermarrying with another people
who really get into long distance running, some may become long distance
runners despite the heat . . . I don't see where making something karmic or
spiritual out of it adds to our understanding.
Diana
)Thus someone looking at race and culture from a spiritual and
)anthropological point of view would see emerging changes through )culture
)and racial interactions but also dominant racial and )envrionment traits if
)a culture remains consistnet over time and )unchanging like Tibet and
)large rural portions of India and Africa.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 17:31:06 -0500
From: "Rainbow Bookstore Cooperative" (rbc supranet.com)
Subject: RE: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier
Hi everybody,
sorry to drag the list through all this. I thought Sune was on the list last
February when I went over these questions in detail in response to Detlef. I
will try one more time to explain what seems inexplicable to Sune.
) The first part of this central introducing 'gong-gong' of the article by
) Peter at PLANS' site, its description of the 'plot' and 'personages' of
) the article, is:
)
) (Quote:)
)
) 'In June 1910 Rudolf Steiner, the founder of anthroposophy, began a
) speaking tour of Norway with a lecture to a large and attentive audience
) in Oslo. The lecture was titled "The Mission of Individual European
) National Souls in Relation to Nordic-Germanic Mythology." In the Oslo
) lecture and throughout his Norwegian tour Steiner presented his theory
) of "national souls" (Volksseelen in German, Steiner's native tongue) and
) paid particular attention to the mysterious wonders of the "Nordic
) spirit.
)
) "The "national souls" of Northern and Central Europe were, Steiner
) explained, components of the "germanic-nordic sub-race," the world's
) most spiritually advanced ethnic group, which was in turn the vanguard
) of the highest of five historical "root races." This superior fifth root
) race, Steiner told his Oslo audience, was naturally the "Aryan race."
)
) (End quote)
)
)
) With almost noone any more having access to the lectures in question,
) that were published in English (second edition) now more than 30 years
) ago and since long out of print, not even the author himself having read
) them when he in detail described their content, seemingly paraphrasing
) Steiner, the author takes a shot at it and instead makes up the plot as
) a fiction out of his fantasy, in its paraphrasing of Steiner making it
) stand out as a direct description of what Steiner actually said in the
) lectures.
Sune and I are talking about two different things. He is referring to a book
published in 1918, and I was referring to a lecture given in 1910. Those two
things are closely related (the former is based on the latter), but they are
not identical. Even so, my description of the lecture is, contrary to Sune's
strenuous objections, well supported by the book.
) I have now put up the full lecture series referred to at
) http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/Steiner/Folkspirits/Folkspirits.htm as a
) source for comparison with what Staudenmaier writes.
I once again urge anyone who finds Sune's arguments here compelling to
consult this version, the book version, in order to check my paragraph
against Steiner's text.
) In June 1910, Steiner held a lecture series in Norway. But - as far as
) can be determined by the overview of lectures held by Steiner in June
) 1910, found at http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/lectures.txt;bytes=42372-53136
) and http://www.elib.com/Steiner/CV/index.php3?cvy=1910-198 as also from
) the published lecture series themselves, discussed by Staudenmaier - the
) whole series was held in Oslo (Christiania), not as a speaking tour
) around Norway.
Everything I wrote in my paragraph was based on secondary sources, several
of which do not agree with Sune's claim. If Sune can explain what on earth
this has to do with either my credibility or the substantive dispute between
us, I will gladly look into the matter and try to find out why there are
differing accounts of Steiner's 1910 itinerary. But it is difficult to
imagine why this would be important to anybody.
) Staudenmaier:
) The lecture was titled "The Mission of Individual European National
) Souls in Relation to Nordic-Germanic Mythology."
)
) Comment:
) According to both the original and the English translation, that also is
) untrue.
)
) The lecture series (not lecture) was entitled " Die mission einzelner
) Volksseelen im Zusammanhang mit der germanisch-nordischen Mythologie";
) "The mission of single folk souls (in general, not European National
) souls) in relation to Nordic-Germanic mythology".
Sune is once again confusing the book with the spoken lecture. My source for
the title of the lecture, as I have explained before, was Hans Mandl's book
Der Geist des Nordens (Mandl was a Norwegian anthroposophist); after Detlef
pointed out the one word discrepancy (i.e. "European") I double checked
Mandl, and he does indeed give the title exactly as I reported it. There is
no reason to assume that Mandl was mistaken; it seems just as likely that
Steiner changed the title for the 1918 published version. Even if Mandl was
mistaken, the error is his, not mine. In order to avoid confusion, I deleted
the word "European" from the English version of this paragraph months ago; I
believe the updated version is now posted at the PLANS website. On the
matter of how to translate "Volksseelen", Sune is blowing smoke; anybody who
cares to can go down to the local library or bookstore and pick up an
English-German dictionary to find out whether "Volk" means "folk" or
"nation", particularly in compound words.
) Staudenmaier:
) In the Oslo lecture and throughout his Norwegian tour Steiner presented
) his theory of "national souls" (Volksseelen in German, Steiner's native
) tongue) and paid particular attention to the mysterious wonders of the
) "Nordic spirit".
)
) Comment:
) The context and subtext of the sentence hints that Steiner should have
) talked about the "Nordic spirit" in a similar sense as the Nazis. That
) is contrary to the truth.
Only some Nazis celebrated the "Nordic spirit" (in fact there was a raging
debate between Nazi "Nordicists" and "Germanicists", along with a minority
of fence-sitting "Aryanists"). But my sentence doesn't address the Nazis in
any way; I discussed that connection at great length later in the article,
which I guess is what Sune means by the "context". But that context is
thoroughly substantiated, and shows that Sune doesn't know what he's talking
about when he says that the striking similarites between Steiner's nordicist
leanings and those of one faction of the Nazis are "contrary to the truth".
) During his life, Steiner on different occasions in books and lectures
) dealt with a great part of the discussed themes of his time. In the
) lecture series Steiner systematically discussed one of the themes that
) was a central part of the intellectual discussion from the last part of
) the 19th century up to after the middle of the 20th century, that of the
) nature of peoples, races and nations.
)
) In the series, Steiner gives a sketch ot the psychology of peoples in a
) context of a discussion of the arising and fading differentiation of
) humanity into races, cultures, nations and individuals.
Sune needs to do a bit more reading into early 20th century anthropology;
the notion of a "psychology of peoples" was abandoned by many as patently
racist before Steiner latched on to it. It would also be nice if
anthroposophists and their defenders would bother to read just a little of
their own anthropologists' work, starting with Richard Karutz.
) What Staudenmaier implies is that Steiner in the lectures should argue
) for the superiority of Germans over other peoples on the basis of
) teutonic mythology in the vein of the Nazis. That is the complete
) opposite of the truth.
I don't know how Sune, whose knowledge of Nazi racial theories is limited
and partial (on this list he has made several completely erroneous claims
about the Nazis' use of the term "Aryan") could possibly be in a position to
make an informed judgement on this question. But if I have understood him
correctly, he doesn't need to know much about the various Nazi versions of
teutonic mythology, since he simply denies that Steiner argued for the
superiority of Germans over other peoples. It is this sort of denial that
makes me question his grasp of basic anthroposophical concepts, not to
mention his reading comprehension skills.
) What Steiner points to, constituting the culmination of the lecture
) series (lecture 11
) http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/Steiner/Folkspirits/Folkspirits-4.htm), is
) how Nordic mythology describes the character of Vidar, pointing to
) Christ, and how a similar experience of Christ as that experienced by
) Paul will become ever more common from the middle of the 20th century
) and onwards. He also describes how
)
) "... the larger nations no less than the smaller isolated groups have
) each their appointed mission and have to contribute their share to the
) whole. Often the smallest national fragments have most important
) contributions to make because it is given to them to preserve and
) nurture old and new motifs in the soul-life.
)
) Thus, even though we have made this dangerous topic the subject of our
) lectures, it will serve to foster the basic sentiment of a community of
) soul amongst all those who are united under the banner of
) anthroposophical thought and feeling and of Anthroposophical ideals."
)
) "What is given to all mankind must be given; it may, it is true,
) originate in a particular region, but it must be given to the whole of
) humanity. We do not differentiate between East and West. We accept with
) deep gratitude the surpassing grandeur of the primeval culture of the
) holy Rishis in its true form. We accept with gratitude the Persian
) culture, the Egypto-Chaldean and Graeco-Latin cultures, and with the
) same objectivity we also accept the cultural heritage of Europe. We are
) compelled by the needs of the situation to present the facts as they
) really are.
)
) If we incorporate the total contributions which each religion has made
) to the civilizing process of mankind into what we recognize to be the
) common property of mankind, then the more we do this, the more we are
) acting in accordance with the Christ principle."
)
) "Spiritual Science, as we shall realize more and more clearly, will
) bring an end to the divisions of mankind. Therefore now is the right
) moment to learn to know the Folk Souls, because the province of
) Spiritual Science is not to promote antagonism between them, but to call
) upon them to work in harmonious cooperation."
I fail to see the relevance of these quotes to our dispute over Steiner's
racial classification scheme. I am also amused by Sune's obliviousness to
the function of similar passages about "harmonious cooperation" in Nazi
discussions of "greater and lesser nations". I get the sense that Sune
thinks the Nazis' public discourse was all about hatred and oppression. He
is very much mistaken.
) 1. Steiner did not explain that the "national souls" of Northern and
) Central Europe were components of the "germanic-nordic sub-race", which
) was the terminology used in the Theosophical tradition. The truth, being
) contrary to what Staudenmaier writes, is that Steiner in the lectures
) not once mentions the word "sub-races" and much less the concept of the
) "germanic-nordic subrace".
That is accurate as far as the book version goes, as I already noted
yesterday. There Steiner refers to the "Germanic peoples", not "sub-races".
Again, I don't understand why Sune is so confident that this was also the
case in the spoken lectures; surely Sune Nordwall is not a more reliable
source about what Steiner said in June 1910 than the sources I consulted.
But I am willing to grant that my claim that Steiner used this term on that
occasion is unprovable. I do not see, however, how this could count as a
significant shortcoming in my description; "sub-races" and "peoples" are
synonyms in this context.
) Instead he points to how development after the time of the mythical
) "Atlantis", ending with the last glacial ages some 10 000 year B.C.
) cannot be described in terms of "races" and "subraces", but must be
) considered in terms of the successive development of a number of
) central, consecutive, ever more global cultures, out of people living in
) geographical areas constituting nodal points in this development. (See
) also http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/Steiner/overcoming1.htm)
Steiner says nothing of the sort in the text Sune points to, but we've
already been over that ground. I feel compelled once again to wonder about
Sune's reading abilities.
) How distorted the description by Staudenmaier is, is shown by how
) Steiner in lecture 2
) (http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/Steiner/Folkspirits/Folkspirits-2.htm)
) describes the unsurpassed character of the philosophy of, not a
) "nordic-germanic subrace", but the first post-glacial Indian
) civilisation, preceding our present cultural epoch with 8 000 years;
)
) " ...the uniqueness of Indian philosophy [...], as creative thought
) expressive of the inner life, is unsurpassed by any other people, and
) it also explains the inner perfection of thought so characteristic of
) the Indian culture."
Sune seems to be having trouble with the concept of comparison lately.
Steiner said lots of nice things about other sub-races/peoples/cultural
epochs, which didn't stop him from asserting that the Germans were the
nicest of all.
) He also in lecture 8
) (http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/Steiner/Folkspirits/Folkspirits-8.htm)
) describes how the people of ancient India had developed to a high degree
) in a way only reached later by "the inhabitants of all the countries
) lying further West":
)
) "The peoples of ancient India had reached a high stage of evolution
) before they developed the 'I'. In all other aspects of evolution they
) had made great strides. Behind them lay a very long period of
) development, but they had lived through it in a kind of dim
) consciousness. Then the 'I' entered in - they awoke to consciousness of
) the 'I'. Amongst the Indians this came comparatively late, at a time
) when the people was already to a certain extent very mature, when they
) had already undergone what the Teutonic peoples still had to undergo
) when they had developed their ego. Bear this carefully in mind."
Yes, the process of racial advance occurs in chronological succession,
according to Steiner. None of this in any way contradicts his annointment of
the Germans as the pinnacle of that process. Sune evidently missed the pages
in this book where Steiner decribes how the Germans take consciousness and
the 'I' to new and unprecedented levels.
) The degree of distortion in Staudenmaiers description also is made clear
) by how Steiner, in lecture 7
) (http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/Steiner/Folkspirits/Folkspirits-7.htm),
) describes the Time Spirit of our present (European) cultural epoch since
) the Middle Ages, not as "the most advanced" or "superior" Time Spirit,
) but as belonging
)
) "... to the great leading Time Spirits, equally with those who were the
) great directing Time Spirits during the Egypto-Chaldean-Babylonian, Old
) Persian and Indian epochs."
Yes, the leading Time Spirits all stand at an equal spot within the cosmic
hierarchy (that is, they each hold the same rank), but their respective
peoples/nations obviously do not. Sune has forgotten that the Germanic Time
Spirit, in Steiner's narrative, long ago took over the reins of spiritual
evolution from his predecessor.
) 3. In the lecture series, the translator of the 1970 English edition
) mistakenly in 2 instances in the text (lecture 6 at
) http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/Steiner/Folkspirits/Folkspirits-6.htm and
) 7 at
) http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/Steiner/Folkspirits/Folkspirits-7.htm)
) mistranslated Steiner's reference to what during the first part of the
) 20th century was considered to be the five 'main races' of mankind with
) the Theosophical term 'root races', a term that Steiner stopped using
) the year before (1909) in ever more distancing himself from the
) Theosophical tradition.
)
) )From the context of these instances it is clear that the translation of
) "main races" with "root races" is a mistake and that Steiner in
) mentioning the concept of the "five main races" of mankind, does not
) refer to the concept of "root races" used in the Theosophical tradition.
Sune is suffering from a peculiar schizophrenia on this question. Just last
week he himself asserted, while discussing a 1909 Steiner lecture, that
"main races" and "root races" were the same thing. Now he thinks they're
entirely different. He was right the first time; Steiner used the terms
interchangeably. In any case, Steiner uses the term "root races" throughout
this book, not just in two instances. The English version Sune and I are
debating is, by the way, the authorized 1970 translation.
) In a lecture half a year before the lecture series discussed by
) Staudenmaier, Steiner described how the concept of "races" in a proper
) sense in his view not can be used for the time since the end of the last
) glacial ages; following the time of the mythical "Atlantis"
) http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/Steiner/overcoming1.htm).
Repetition won't make this true. The lecture clearly says that racial
categories will not be "overcome" until the "sixth epoch". Perhaps Sune's
edition of GA 117 is missing a few pages.
) Staudenmaier:
) This superior fifth root race, Steiner told his Oslo audience, was
) naturally the "Aryan race."
)
) Comment:
) Again, this is a total fantasy by Staudenmaier. In the lecture series,
) Steiner not once mentions neither "root race", nor "fifth root race",
) nor "superior fifth root race".
Readers can easily see for themsleves that "root races" are "mentioned"
throughout the book. A total fantasy, it seems to me, means something that
is made up out of thin air, with no discernible relation to its purported
basis. Since Steiner indisputably names the "Aryans" as one of the "root
races" he discusses, it is hard to see how my description could count as a
total fantasy. What really irks Sune is that I have additionally noted the
superior status Steiner attaches to "the Aryans" in this lecture. On that
matter, it is at least conceivable that another reader might disagree with
my understanding of the text (though I suspect it would take quite a bit of
willful blindness to do so); but pretending that Steiner doesn't even use
these terms is pure silliness. If I weren't such an open-minded guy, I'd say
that this alone disqualifies Sune from serious discussion of these lectures.
) In the untruthful phantasy sentence, Staudenmaier explicitly implies
) that Steiner should have talked about "Aryans" as the "superior fifth
) root race" in the lectures, in a way Staudenmaier then tries to connect
) to National Socialist ideology. Reading the lecture series, it is clear
) that few things are further from the truth.
Aside from the fact that it is impossible to "explicitly imply" anything at
all, I didn't "imply" this, I said it outright. And yes, I then went on to
connect Steiner's theories to their National Socialist counterparts. In
order to evaluate whether this latter connection is a figment of my
imagination, one would need to go beyond merely reading Steiner's lectures,
something I have urged Sune to try on more than one occasion.
) Only once in the 11 lectures (lecture 6
) http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/Steiner/Folkspirits/Folkspirits-6.htm)
) does Steiner mention 'Aryans', referring to "the peoples of Asia Minor
) and Europe whom we regard as members of the Caucasian race." The main
) thing that he has to say about Caucasians as a "race", in a general
) simplified way referring to their external, physical character, is:
)
) "The particular task of the Caucasian race is to find the way to the
) spirit through the senses, for this race is orientated chiefly towards
) the sense-world.".
)
) This point is about as much as Steiner has to say about "Aryans" in the
) one lecture of the 11 in the series where he mentions the term "aryan".
That's because he spends most of his time on the individual components of
the "Aryan" race, namely its constituent "peoples". These are, after all,
lectures about "people souls", not "race souls".
) Contrary to Staudenmaier's distorted assertions, Steiner in the lecture
) series does not promote any view of an "Aryan race" as "superior" but
) (lecture 5
) http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/Steiner/Folkspirits/Folkspirits-5.htm)
) warns against the dangers facing people who cultivate the development of
) clairvoyance with erroneous methods, in terms of developing erroneous
) understanding of the nature of "races" (not leading to an experience and
) understanding of Christ, the description of which constitutes the
) culmination of the series in the 11th lecture
) http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/Steiner/Folkspirits/Folkspirits-11.htm but
) to other experiences and views):
)
) "The abnormal Spirits of Form [normal Spirits of Form in the
) Jewish-Christian tradition are called Powers. According to Steiner
) abnormal Mights are responsible for the differentiation of humanity into
) 'races'] who are really Spirits of Movement [Mights] and who appear as
) hideous spiritual Beings on the astral plane also have their subordinate
) spirits. They are the spirits that weave and live in that which is
) associated with the genesis of the human races, and that in man is
) associated with that element that we have characterised as the
) Earth-bound, as that element which is associated with reproduction and
) the like.
)
) These beings, indeed this whole domain is one of the most variegated and
) dangerous of the astral world and - this is the appropriate moment to
) call attention to it - it is the one most easily found by those who
) attain to clairvoyant vision by erroneous methods. The hosts of these
) spirits who are associated with the propagation of the race, who serve
) that purpose, are those most easily perceived.
)
) Many a one who has entered into the occult realm prematurely or in the
) wrong way has had to pay dearly for having encountered this host of
) spiritual beings without the harmonizing influence of the other
) spiritual Beings."
)
) In lecture 11
) (http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/Steiner/Folkspirits/Folkspirits-11.htm),
) the final lecture of the series, he again warns:
)
) "There will be no greater danger than the tendency to cling to the old
) clairvoyance which has not been permeated with the new forces, a danger
) which might tempt man to remain content with the manifestations of the
) old astral clairvoyance of primeval times, such as the soul pictures of
) the Fenris Wolf." (portraying the anti-Christian Ahrimanic forces
) feeding on the living substance of the etheric body of man)
What does any of this have to do with the question of Aryan supremacy?
) Read in the light of history, the development of "Aryanism" and the
) following development of National Socialism, as an outdated cult of the
) Nordic hero with magical-ritual means, the words in the final lecture in
) the series stand out as prophetic, in a way that Staudenmaier in the
) article tries to make stand out as the opposite.
I cannot fathom what Sune is trying to say here. I don't find anything in
the passges just quoted that is related to Aryanism, much less in a way that
would distinguish Steiner's version of Aryanism from the several Nazi
versions. Perhaps Sune could explain what he means.
) In its probably unsurpassed untruthfulness at PLANS' site, the
) introduction casts a shadow over everything else Staudenmaier writes on
) anthroposophy, not least his keeping the untruths in the article for a
) year after having had the possibility to check them out against the
) published lectures themselves as well as more or less later also against
) the original text in German.
I still haven't seen the German text, but I'd like to. Could you perhaps
send me a photocopy, Sune? Or post it on your website?
) Seeing with which light-hearted carelessness Peter makes up lies about
) Steiner and anthroposophy, as demonstrated by his introducing
) description of the plot of his article 'Anthroposophy and Ecofascism',
) and then mixes it with what may or may not be more true assertions on
) the subject he comments on, in a way that impossible for the general
) reader of it to look through without closer study, makes me suspicious
) of everything else he may have to say say about anthroposophy and
) Steiner, and his judgements on them, down to the last comma, that no
) amount of references can made credible, making me want to read every
) lecture or reference he mentions myself, before knowing what to think
) about it.
)
) I think everybody else should too.
Everybody ought to do so in any case, of course, regardless of their
personal opinion of me. It is irresponsible to take any author at her or his
word without looking into to the conext oneself, when possible. I very much
hope list members will follow Sune's advice and read my article as well as
the texts Sune and others have posted in order to determine whether I have
"made up lies" about Steiner's works.
) The keeping of the conscious untruths in the article for so long matches
) the conscious keeping of the admitted untruthful description of the
) basis of Waldorf education at the site of PLANS by the main webmaster of
) the site and main moderator of this list; Dan Dugan, for lack of a
) truthful description of WE that stands out as equally weird.
)
) In this keeping of conscious untruths in their material at the site of
) PLANS, Peter Staudenmaier and Dan Dugan stand out as brothers in spirit.
I am still learning about Waldorf pedagogy, but I haven't seen anything in
Dan's descriptions of it that strikes me as "weird", and I have no idea what
Sune means with "admitted untruths". In regard to those areas of
anthroposophy that I do know well, Dan's command of the material is superior
to that of most of the anthroposophists I've encountered. I am thus
flattered by the comparison.
On Sune's larger point: In order to know whether someone else has spread
"conscious untruths", one needs to know what the other person actually
believes to be true. So far Sune has not suggested, much less shown, that I
believe the contrary of what I have written. His conclusions are thus quite
overdrawn; even if every assertion he has made here were accurate, they
still would not support the claim that I have been "lying", that is, telling
deliberate falsehoods. To me this indicates a fundamental misunderstanding
of historical scholarship. Historians make mistakes all the time; it comes
with the territory. Later scholars can then build on earlier insights while
discarding failed, inadequate, or disproved lines of argument. I would be
absolutely delighted to find my work on anthroposophy subjected to that sort
of serious scrutiny one day, and it would be surprising indeed if it did not
turn out to contain any number of mistakes. But Sune hasn't undertaken any
such project; he has simply collected his prejudices against my
interpretation of Steiner and added some pointless invective about my
honesty. Not a particularly edifying approach to debate, but then perhaps I
expect too much from anthroposophists.
Happy May Day to all. I'll be out of town for the next few days but will
return to the fray at the end of the week.
Peter Staudenmaier
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 00:36:01 +0200
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier -
III/III
Alice Klinge wrote:
) ... in trying to follow the "dialogue" between Sune and
) Peter, what did Steiner DO to help resist the nazis?
)
) If he did not preach racism (and perhaps he did, it seems the
) translation makes it nearly impossible to extract exactly what he meant.
) convenient..) did he use his influence and power to help defeat the nazi
) movement at the time?
In 1919 Steiner founded the Threefold Social Order
(http://www.threefolding.freeuk.com/) with help from
coactivists from the middle classes and workers' movement (v.a. USPD).
He was publicly attacked by Adolf Hitler in the Volkischer Beobachter
(Folk Observer) newspaper (March 1921), who denounced the Threefold
Social movement as a Jewish strategy to undermine the normal world
outlook of the people.
In 1919 Steiner also warned against the so-called Protocols of the Wise
of Zion, on whose anti-Semitic machinations Adolf Hitler was to draw for
certain parts of "Mein Kampf" in 1924. 1919 was the year Hitler joined
the German Workers' Party, whose name was changed to National Socialist
German Workers Party the following year; 1920. The following year; 1921,
he made the party accept accept him as formal leader of the party with
dictatorial powers. (http://www.stokesey.demon.co.uk/wwii/ahitler.html)
In 1920 and again in 1923, Steiner warned in lectures about the
black-magical misuse of the Swastika. (1920 was the year Hitler chose
the Swastika as the Nazi party emblem.)
In 1922 Steiner was warned by the Munich Anthroposophist, Hans
Buchenbacher that he was listed 8th or 9th amongst those prominent
Germans targeted for assassination. Buchenbacher and his friends quickly
organized a sort of private bodyguard whilst the venue agency provided
additional heavyweights, as was usual around the time of the Munich hall
assassinations. On the 15th May 1922 Steiner had just given a lecture in
the Four Seasons Hotel in Munich when radical Right militants mobbed
Steiner.
"A brief fight broke out between attackers and supporters, throughout
which the policemen present did nothing. The following morning Steiner
had to leave Munich secretly. He was never able to go there again, as it
had become too dangerous. Thereafter until his death his work on German
soil was confined to Stuttgart, and not in public at that, as other
powers were active in Germany by then." (Goetheanum Weekly, 1993)
Steiner died 30 March 1925, few months after Hitler was released from
prison 20 December 1924 for 'exemplary behaviour' (after 8 months there,
having been sentenced to 5 years,
http://www.hitler.org/writings/prison/) for his Beer Hall coup in Munich
in November 1923. During his time in prison, Hitler wrote 'Mein Kampf'.
The Dragon had just started showing his face when Steiner died.
Regards,
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell
biology, EU, globalization and social threefolding
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 17:47:11 -0500
From: "Rainbow Bookstore Cooperative" (rbc supranet.com)
Subject: RE: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
Alice Klinge wrote:
) I also wonder, in trying to follow the "dialogue" between Sune and
) Peter, what did Steiner DO to help resist the nazis?
)
) If he did not preach racism (and perhaps he did, it seems the
) translation makes it nearly impossible to extract exactly what he meant.
) convenient..) did he use his influence and power to help defeat the nazi
) movement at the time? If he did not, did he feel guilty like other
) protestant religious leaders who later regretted their lack of
) leadership? Why wasn't he a martyr for the resistance if he believed in
) karma?
Hi Alice, I've only got time for a quick repsonse. When Steiner died in 1925
the Nazis were still a small movement that few people took seriously, so we
can't really expect Steiner to have resisted them himself. After the Nazis
came to power in 1933, organized anthroposophy faced several choices in how
to respond to the new regime. I cover some of that history in my articles on
the PLANS site; in my view, most German anthroposophists would count as
passive collaborators for much of the Third Reich, while a good chunk of the
anthro leadership falls into the category of active collaborators for much
of that time. The one significant exception was Jewish anthroposophists. I
am unaware of a single example of a German anthroposophist joining the
resistance; in the words of the anthroposophist Jens Heisterkamp, "the
anthroposophist movement did not produce any members of the Resistance."
This is in stark contrast to several other small alternative spiritual
groups who braved the Nazis with open defiance. As for post-war
anthroposophy, the record is pretty dismal. Far from the kind of
soul-searching that you point to within the protestant churches,
anthroposophy closed ranks around their own myth of having been hounded by
the Nazis from 1933 onward. Some post-war anthros have even tried to
"explain" the Third Reich as a necessary episode in the esoteric development
of humanity. I have no opinions on what this all means in light of the
doctrine of karma. Hope this is helpful,
Peter S.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 21:25:53 -0700
From: "jeff auen" (pacbay home.com)
Subject: Re: more on anthroposophy and theosophy
Sorry this was actually received. It was a draft and I put in my out box to
work on and elaborate on later. It was very incomplete and unfinished. This
is a very complex issue and I do not want to throw out abstractions about
such an important subject. Due to computer problems and a shutdown, it was
sent unknowingly.
jeff .
----- Original Message -----
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: more on anthroposophy and theosophy
) Jeff wrote a long post about how cultures differ from one another,
) summarized as "elementary anthropology."
)
) The missing pieces are why any of this would have anything to do with
) physical characteristics of a race of people, rather than just environment
) and culture:
)
) )Desert nomads are not going to take up long distance running in 110
)degree
) )heat as native rain forest people in Amazon are not going to )build
) )pyramind cities
)
) Right. Desert nomads do not run long distances in 100 degree heat because
it
) is too hot. Not because their race is not physically or spiritually
inclined
) toward long distance running.
)
) And yes, if they are conquered by or start intermarrying with another
people
) who really get into long distance running, some may become long distance
) runners despite the heat . . . I don't see where making something karmic
or
) spiritual out of it adds to our understanding.
) Diana
)
)
)
)
)
) )Thus someone looking at race and culture from a spiritual and
) )anthropological point of view would see emerging changes through
)culture
) )and racial interactions but also dominant racial and )envrionment traits
if
) )a culture remains consistnet over time and )unchanging like Tibet and
) )large rural portions of India and Africa.
)
)
) _________________________________________________________________
) Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
)
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 21:36:02 -0700
From: "jeff auen" (pacbay home.com)
Subject: Re: Steiner and medical training
I must take him at his word on this In this child's case, it did lead to
severe learning problems. The child apparently could not concentrate for
more than a few minutes at a time without headaches or loss of concentration
and could not absorb information or process normally.
) Debra:
)
) See? This makes no sense at all. Someone with severe learning disabilities
) just can't be "brought back to normal." Just another snake oil treatment
) story where the facts just don't match Steiner's claim.
)
) I worked in Special Ed for 13 years...
Jeff: What makes sense is that either he lied completely (which I doubt) or
his intuitive and observational insights and methods worked. And severe
learning difficulties may have been differently defined then, though I used
this term, not him. From the description of his condition it would be
labeled as such. The definition may not be transferred to this child exactly
but this is not the point. If this child could not learn, had major
difficulties in cognitive processing and memory, I would say he was in
trouble!.
Jeff
)
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 22:08:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Steiner and medical training
) ) Debra:
) )
) ) See? This makes no sense at all. Someone with
) severe learning disabilities
) ) just can't be "brought back to normal." Just
) another snake oil treatment
) ) story where the facts just don't match Steiner's
) claim.
) )
) ) I worked in Special Ed for 13 years...
)
dottie-
When I had read the story about this young man and how
Steiner had worked with him and a major change had
occurred, it changed the way I looked at how I might
be able to help teens with these types of problems.
Would it be possible that I too one day would be able
to work with young people who others had given up on
and make that kind of a difference? That is the
running theme in my life that he has inspired with his
work.
I think most people think like you do Debra in the
sense that certain things are hopeless and that is
that. However you have made great strides with your
own sons and I am sure there were many doubters along
the way.
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 18:56:49 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: The cultural xenophobia of PLANS [Re: Dissolving confusion]
Gary, you wrote,
)I only request that given the very public nature of this list, and given the
)wide spectrum of debating experiences of its participants (and search engine
)users), I suggest that we NOT use short-hand methods such as this which CAN
)be misconstrued by the uninitiated, or accompany it with a clear statement
)indicating that it is not personal.
I second that, adding the reminder that sarcasm is often
misunderstood by subscribers for whom English is a second language.
Straight talk preferred!
Dan Dugan
Moderator
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 266
-- Topica Digest --
Fresh jazz in the fresh air
By faiman jlc.net
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
By alice javanet.com
Admin: RE: Religion and Mysticism and the truth part 5?
By dan dandugan.com
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier
- III/III
By dan dandugan.com
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier -
III
By alice javanet.com
Re: On your seriously careful search for truth, all
By alice javanet.com
Re: On your seriously careful search for truth, all
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier
- III/III
By snell netshel.net
On the seriously careless untruthfulness of Peter Staudenmaier
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
By steve premofine.com
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: On the seriously careless untruthfulness of Peter Staudenmaier
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
jazz at High Mowing
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Question regarding teeth
By lizanderrol home.com
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier
- III/III
By dan dandugan.com
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier
- II
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2-May-2001 14:08:45 GMT
From: Neil Faiman (faiman jlc.net)
Subject: Fresh jazz in the fresh air
WILTON ñ About a dozen students formed a reception line of sorts in a
narrow hallway of the High Mowing School.
Jimmy Greene was leaving the building.
The teens stood starry-eyed as their idol personally addressed every one
of them, while slowly ambling toward his car Thursday night for a long
trek back home to Connecticut. He remembered their names, and even
recalled one kidís jazz influences.
...
Greene had wowed a small gathering in the schoolís intimate concert hall
earlier in the evening during a two-set gig with the Steve Davis Sextet.
Teenagers and adults twisted and rumbled their seats, while dozens of
students danced in the aisles and on a balcony. The crowdís reaction
answered why internationally known jazz artists would perform in a tiny
Waldorf boarding school nestled in the foothills of the Monadnock.
ìThis is, I think, our fourth time here, and every time the students are
so gung-ho,î said Steve Davis, a trombonist and leader of the sextet.
ìTheyíre asking questions about Jimmy and I playing with Avishai. Iím 34
years old, and itís great to see 16-year-olds enjoying this.î
...
Doug Morris, a High Mowing teacher whose connections lands acts like
Davisí at the school, acknowledged the value of engaging the music
head-on and without pretension.
ìItís important to celebrate human creativity,î Morris said. ìThis music
inspires. This is Americaís music: jazz. People have to hear it live to
understand itís significance.î
--------------------
Complete article at
uatelegraph.com/Main.asp?SectionID=25&SubSectionID=354&ArticleID=31612).
(Warning -- Nashua Telegraph articles tend to remain on line for only a
couple of days.)
-Neil Faiman
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 10:36:09 -0400
From: alice (alice javanet.com)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
Rainbow Bookstore Cooperative wrote:
)
) Hi Alice, I've only got time for a quick repsonse. When Steiner died in 1925
) the Nazis were still a small movement that few people took seriously, so we
) can't really expect Steiner to have resisted them himself. After the Nazis
) came to power in 1933, organized anthroposophy faced several choices in how
) to respond to the new regime. I cover some of that history in my articles on
) the PLANS site; in my view, most German anthroposophists would count as
) passive collaborators for much of the Third Reich, while a good chunk of the
) anthro leadership falls into the category of active collaborators for much
) of that time. The one significant exception was Jewish anthroposophists. I
) am unaware of a single example of a German anthroposophist joining the
) resistance; in the words of the anthroposophist Jens Heisterkamp, "the
) anthroposophist movement did not produce any members of the Resistance."
) This is in stark contrast to several other small alternative spiritual
) groups who braved the Nazis with open defiance. As for post-war
) anthroposophy, the record is pretty dismal. Far from the kind of
) soul-searching that you point to within the protestant churches,
) anthroposophy closed ranks around their own myth of having been hounded by
) the Nazis from 1933 onward. Some post-war anthros have even tried to
) "explain" the Third Reich as a necessary episode in the esoteric development
) of humanity. I have no opinions on what this all means in light of the
) doctrine of karma. Hope this is helpful,
)
) Peter S.
)
[Alice comments and seeks answers from history]
Thank you for your thoughtful response.
Were some of Steiner's racial comments used by the Third Reich in their
propaganda?
Where would I find out more about the Jewish anthroposophists at the
time of the rise to power of the national socialists ?
I am sure that you have mentioned this on the list before, but how did
the myth of being persecuted by the nazis begin in anthroposophist
rhetoric?
It doesn't seem surprising to me that the anthroposophists would invent
some reality to glorify their response. This whole movement seems to
contract in fear and mistruths when threatened or questioned.
I can understand the fear that this kind of woo-woo faith would create.
Like your namesake in the New Testament Bible, it may be easier to deny
one's real religious affiliation when asked for the truth by a potential
persecutor. (did I remember that story correctly?) It seems very much
like the dance of denial and stealth that we have discussed by the
Waldorf schools....
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 23:39:52 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Admin: RE: Religion and Mysticism and the truth part 5?
Su (and everybody else), please don't quote a whole message just to
make a short comment. Thanks,
Dan Dugan
Moderator
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 23:51:25 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier
- III/III
)I also wonder, in trying to follow the "dialogue" between Sune and
)Peter, what did Steiner DO to help resist the nazis?
To the best of my knowledge, Anthroposophists either collaborated
with the Nazis or laid low to stay out of trouble. The wife of an
Anthroposophist wrote:
"It was not a resistance group in the sense they conspired against
Hitler, but it was a group that tried in a spiritual and Christian
way to push through its goals and thereby be a fortress against the
Nazis. (Frau Doktor Margret Blersch)" [Owings, Alison. Frauen: German
Women Recall the Third Reich. Rutgers University Press, 1995, p. 370.]
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 09:51:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
Dan -
) To the best of my knowledge, Anthroposophists either
) collaborated
) with the Nazis
dottie -
Dan, what a terrible accusation against a man who
worked as hard as he did to wake up others to a
reality of a spiritual truth. Just ugly. And all for
what? Time will tell the truth Mr. Dugan and those who
study Steiner and work to make this world a better
place will stand and it will be known that many of his
teachings do lead to a better understanding of our
world.
Dan -
or laid low to stay out of trouble.
dottie -
Like the rest of the world until it was already too
late. A small group of Anthroposophists laid low. The
man they studied with was already a target for death
of the forming Nazi generation, and they chose to turn
to prayer, meditation and impacting their small
communities in ways that they could at the time.
I read a book called the Spear of Destiny where it
speaks of Hitler blaming Steiner for the fall of his
war and Steiner had already been dead for fifteen
years. Hitler, according to this book by Ravencroft,
felt that Steiner had affected his generals from the
spiritual plane. There is also a mention of one
general in particular who was having a problem with
the way Hitler was extinguishing people earlier on and
he was demoted for cowardice.
Dan -
) The wife of an
) Anthroposophist wrote:
)
) "It was not a resistance group in the sense they
) conspired against
) Hitler, but it was a group that tried in a spiritual
) and Christian
) way to push through its goals and thereby be a
) fortress against the
) Nazis.
dottie -
Dan, do you think this is a bad note? If anything it
shows how the group was unprepared to take on the
Nazis and chose to do it in another way.
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 13:48:22 -0400
From: alice (alice javanet.com)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier -
III/
Sune Nordwall wrote:
)
) [many snips to save space]
) The Dragon had just started showing his face when Steiner died.
)
) Regards,
)
) Sune Nordwall
) Stockholm, Sweden
)
[Alice responds]
thank you,Sune for your studious response. It seems like there must be
clear evidence of Steiner being targeted by the Nazis as an enemy.
If so, then the anthroposophical claim to anti-Nazism would have some
basis in reality. I wonder what Steiner said about Hitler?
Did he discuss openly or privately about any perception of evil?
I believe he wrote about "evil" - did his theories discuss
personification of such?
trying to make sense of it all...
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 13:54:28 -0400
From: alice (alice javanet.com)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careful search for truth, all
dottie zold wrote:
)
) Dan -
) ) To the best of my knowledge, Anthroposophists either
) ) collaborated
) ) with the Nazis
[alice responds]
Dottie, I don't think that this gives a particularly unbalanced view,
from what I have read.
It makes more sense when one reads the quote that Dan wrote from the
wife of an anthroposophist.
I would imagine that they would believe their spiritual forces would be
enough to overcome the worldly evil around them.
Unfortunately, from what I understand, it did not save any lives.
It reveals more about your blind need for faith when you attack Dan and
call him a liar.
I believe that Steiner and many others preached BALANCE.
Why can't you allow full humanity in dialogue, even with someone you
don't agree with?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 12:37:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careful search for truth, all
Alice
) I would imagine that they would believe their
) spiritual forces would be
) enough to overcome the worldly evil around them.
) Unfortunately, from what I understand, it did not
) save any lives.
dottie -
I do not believe they thought their spiritual forces
would BE ENOUGH to OVERCOME worldly evil. It was the
way they personally could respond to what was
happening around them. And no, it seems not even the
countries of our world with all thier machinery could
save millions who perished in that despicable war.
Alice
)
) It reveals more about your blind need for faith when
) you attack Dan and
) call him a liar.
dottie -
Why would you possibly claim that I attacked Dan when
I just stated my opinion of what he wrote? And I did
not call him a liar.
And as far as blind faith it seems you would have that
opinion as mine is very different than yours and that
makes my faith wrong and blind. And you do not even
know what my faith pertains to, do you?
Alice
) I believe that Steiner and many others preached
) BALANCE.
)
dottie -
You are absolutely right I am glad we can agree on
that!
Alice -
) Why can't you allow full humanity in dialogue, even
) with someone you
) don't agree with?
)
dottie -
Isn't that what I did when I responded to Mr. Dugan.
It seems you are the one at the moment that is not
wanting to allow the dialogue I have to offer.
thanks,
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 12:51:39 -0700
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier
- III/III
)Dan -
)) To the best of my knowledge, Anthroposophists either
)) collaborated
)) with the Nazis
)
dottie - with finger in ear, singing at the top of her lungs, wrote:
)
)Dan, what a terrible accusation against a man who
)worked as hard as he did to wake up others to a
)reality of a spiritual truth. Just ugly. And all for
)what? Time will tell the truth Mr. Dugan and those who
)study Steiner and work to make this world a better
)place will stand and it will be known that many of his
) teachings do lead to a better understanding of our
)world.
Debra:
Dottie, give us some quotes. Do the work to back up your claims. Debate the
issue, don't just attack Dan.
)Dan -
)or laid low to stay out of trouble.
)
)dottie -
)
)Like the rest of the world until it was already too
)late. A small group of Anthroposophists laid low. The
)man they studied with was already a target for death
)of the forming Nazi generation, and they chose to turn
)to prayer, meditation and impacting their small
)communities in ways that they could at the time.
Debra:
I'm happy to say that my elders didn't lay low. They fought in World War II
against Hitler and his thugs, and I'm pretty proud of this. If the entire
world would have just set back and relied on prayer and meditation, what
would have happened? How far do you think Hitler would have gone, Dottie?
That the Aryan Anthros prayed and meditated while young children were
slaughtered just doesn't do much for me, if in fact that is what they did.
)
)I read a book called the Spear of Destiny where it
)speaks of Hitler blaming Steiner for the fall of his
)war and Steiner had already been dead for fifteen
)years. Hitler, according to this book by Ravencroft,
)felt that Steiner had affected his generals from the
)spiritual plane. There is also a mention of one
)general in particular who was having a problem with
)the way Hitler was extinguishing people earlier on and
)he was demoted for cowardice.
Debra:
Educate us, Dottie. Send in some quotes. Do the work.
)
)Dan -
)) The wife of an
)) Anthroposophist wrote:
))
)) "It was not a resistance group in the sense they
)) conspired against
)) Hitler, but it was a group that tried in a spiritual
)) and Christian
)) way to push through its goals and thereby be a
)) fortress against the
)) Nazis.
)
)dottie -
)
)Dan, do you think this is a bad note? If anything it
)shows how the group was unprepared to take on the
)Nazis and chose to do it in another way.
Debra:
In their typical non-productive three-fold dysfunction...
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 22:11:40 +0200
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: On the seriously careless untruthfulness of Peter Staudenmaier
Alice Klinge, you asked about what you call 'anthroposophist rhetoric':
) how did the myth of being persecuted by the nazis begin in
) anthroposophist rhetoric?
Uwe Werner, Head Archivist at the 'Archiv Am Goeheanum' in Dornach,
Switzerland, in 1999 published an extensive documentation on
'Anthroposophy in the time of Nazi Germany' (Verlag R. Oldenberg,
Munich)
In the book he writes:
***************************************************************
*Anthroposophists belonged to the many groups of people who were
persecuted under the Nazi regime. Hitler's own disdaining remarks
regarding Rudolf Steiner and the Anthroposophists appeared as early as
1921.(1) By spring of 1933, articles criticizing the movement began
appearing more frequently in National Socialist newspapers. By the
summer of that year, Steiner's books were banned from public libraries
in Bavaria, and study groups and branches of the General
Anthroposophical Society, along with other cultural organizations, were
ordered to submit to National Socialistic leadership.
During the years leading up to the 1935 prohibition of the German
Anthroposophical Society and the closing of Waldorf Schools in the years
thereafter, the society Executive Council was faced with the question of
whether to submit to pressure to dissolve the Society of their own
accord, or whether to attempt to preserve the Society and to continue
working as long as and as effectively as possible. Choosing the second
of these two paths made it necessary for them to make compromises in
order to be tolerated by those in power. It is for this reason that,
despite the fact that the main Executive Council had unanimously
renounced the National Socialist cause at an internal meeting at Easter
1933, there was never a public rejection of National Socialism on the
part of the General Anthroposophical Society.
Like the General Anthroposophical Society, institutions based on
anthroposophy (such as Waldorf Schools, schools for the handicapped,
hospitals, schools of Eurythmy, etc.), for the most part adopted a
strategy of peaceful and passive resistance. Waldorf schools experienced
serious financial strains and were forced to let go of Jewish teachers,
but the remaining teachers could continue to create their own lesson
plans. In homes for the handicapped, children could be cared for. It was
still possible to publish and to have access to the work of Rudolf
Steiner. In a manner of working not unlike that carried out by
Anthroposophists today in regions with human rights violations, efforts
were aimed to uphold human dignity wherever possible.
Though the decision had been reached by July 1935, it was not until
November 1, 1935 that, through the efforts of Nazi leaders Heinrich
Himmler and Reinhard Heydrich, the Anthroposophical Society was
prohibited in Germany. The grounds for its prohibition read as follows:
"According to its historical development, the Anthroposophical Society
is internationally oriented and even today continues to maintain close
contacts with foreign freemasons, Jews and pacifists. The methods of
teaching developed by its founder, Steiner, and followed in the
anthroposophical schools still existing today follow an individualistic
and human-oriented education, which has nothing in common with
principles of National Socialistic education. As a result of this
opposition to the National Socialistic idea of Volk (Voelkische
Gedanke), the continued activity of the Anthroposophical Society imposes
the danger of injuring the National Socialistic State. The organization
is therefore to be dissolved on account of its subversive character and
the danger it poses to the public."(2)
The accusations had been carefully researched. Himmler ordered numerous
investigative reports that serve to document the stand of the Nazis
toward anthroposophy. Fifteen in-depth reports, as well as countless
individual accounts, all come to the same conclusion: that anthroposophy
is irreconcilable with the aims and the ideologies of National
Socialism.
"To briefly summarize my judgement," wrote Jakob Wilhelm Hauer,
Professor of Religion at the University of Tuebingen and member of the
Secret Service of the S.S.,
"every undertaking and activity of anthroposophy necessarily arises out
of the Anthroposophical world view. The anthroposophical world view is
in the most important points directly opposed to National Socialism.
Therefore, schools which are built out of the anthroposophical world
view and led by anthroposophists mean danger to true German
education."(3)
Perhaps the most persuasive adherent of National Socialism to formulate
the incompatibility of anthroposophy and National Socialism was Alfred
Bauemler, a distinguished philosopher and professor of education in
Berlin. As part of his work within the Rosenburg Office "for the control
of the intellectual life of the National Socalist Party", he was
commissioned to conduct an in-depth investigation of the work of Rudolf
Steiner. Unlike hasty and unstudied police reports, Bauemler's "Report
on the Waldorf Schools" and "Report on Rudolf Steiner and Philosophy"
are noteworthy attempts to understand the thoughts underlying
anthroposophy: Baeumler's hope was to find means to adopt aspects of
Waldorf pedagogy into National Socialist education. He concluded,
however, that the principles underlying anthroposophy contradict the
aims of the National Socialistic State.
"The fateful distinction", he wrote, "occurs through the fact that
Steiner replaces the theory of heredity with a different, positive
theory. Steiner does not simply overlook the biological reality, but
rather consciously converts it to its opposite. Anthroposophy is one of
the most consequent antibiological systems." In that race and Volk are
discounted in ahroposophy as the essential determining factor of
individual capacity, Bauemler realizes that the objectives in Waldorf
education, according to Steiner's principles, "can only be humanistic,
and not based on race or ethnic group."(4)
In March 1936, Waldorf Schools were prohibited from taking on new
students; by summer of 1941, all Waldorf Schools in Germany had been
forced to close their doors. On June 1941, shortly before the attack on
Russia, the Gestapo staged an action against the "inside opponents" of
the Nazis. The Christian Community was prohibited from continued
activity, prominent Anthroposophists and members of the Christian
Community were arrested, interrogated and imprisoned or sent to
concentration camps. The following fall, the Department of Security of
the Reich published a 50 page brochure entitled Anthroposophy and its
Associated Institutions". The report's concluding statement read:
"If one is to accept the totality of thinking embraced in a world-view
and recognize its impact on the entire opinions and bearing of the
people, then there can be no doubt that followers of Anthroposophy must
necessarily become opponents of National Socialism."(5)
Notes
1. Adolf Hitler writes about Rudolf Steiner and Social Three-folding,
1921
"In the course of the London affair, there gradually emerged such
mysterious circumstances that it has become not only expedient but
indeed necessary to look somewhat more closely at this Minister
(Simons), the intimate friend of the Gnostic and Anthroposophist Rudolf
Steiner, follower of Three-folding the Social Organism and whatever all
these Jewish methods of destroying the normal frame of mind of the
people are called: to see whether that mindless face, as Lloyd George
described it, is really just the result of a deficient intellect, or if
it is the mask behind which something else is concealed ... (he
continues with a protest against Simon's political activity, and
particularly the movement to disarm the German people) ... And who is
the driving force behind all this devilishness? The Jew! Friend of
Doctor Rudolf Steiner, the friend of Simons, the 'mindless' ..."
Adolf Hitler, Staatsmaenner ode Nationalverbrecher ("Men of the State or
National Criminals"), in Voelkischer Beobachter, 35.Jg., 15 March 1921,
S.2. (original German text)
2. Prohibition of the Anthroposophical Society in Germany, November 1,
1935
"Prussian Secret Police, Berlin, November 1, 1935. The deputy chief
(stell. Chef) and Inspector II 1 B 2 69121/766 L/35.
Regarding: the Anthroposophical Society
In accordance with paragraph 1 of the decree of 2.28.1933 for the
Protection of People and State, issued by the President of the Reich, I
hereby dissolve the Anthroposophical Society within the territory of the
German Reich, effective immediately. The organization's properties are
to be confiscated. The re-establishment of the Society, as well as the
creation of undercover successor organizations, is forbidden under
threat of the penalties described in paragraph 4 of the above named
decree.
Grounds: According to its historical development, the Anthroposophical
Society is internationally oriented and even today continues to maintain
close contacts to foreign freemasons, Jews and pacifists. The method
of teaching developed by its founder, Steiner, and followed in the
anthroposophical schools still existing today follow an individualistic
and human-oriented education, which has nothing in common with the
principles of national socialistic education. As a result of its
opposition to the National Socialistic idea of Volk (Voelkische
Gedanke), the continued activity of the Anthroposophical Society imposes
the danger of injuring the National Socialistic state.
The organization is therefore to be dissolved on account of its
subversive character and the danger it poses to the public.
sig. in absentia, Heydrich"
BAK (German Federal Archives) R43 II/822 (original German text)
3. Dr. J.W. Hauer on Waldorf Schools
"[...] To briefly summarize my judgement: Every undertaking and activity
of anthroposophy necessarily arises out of the anthroposophical world
view. The anthroposophical world view is in its most important points
directly opposed to national socialism. Therefore, schools which are
built out of the anthroposophical world view and led by anthroposophists
mean danger to true German education, particularly through the relation
of the anthroposophical communities to Dornach, the international center
of anthroposophy, in which Jews also play an important role, or at any
rate have played until the present. A survey of the teachers and leaders
of the individual Waldorf Schools in Germany before the [Nazi] takeover
indicates clearly that the Jewish impact was important in the German
anthroposophical communities and schools."
Prof. Dr. J.W. Hauer, in an internal report for the Secret Service on
February 7, 1935. BAPR 4901-3285 (original German text)
4. From "Report on Waldorf Schools" and "Report on Rudolf Steiner and
Philosophy" by Alfred Bauemler
"The understanding of man (Menschenkunde) which underlies Waldorf
education contain deep and correct insights, with R.Steiner derived
mostly from his exceedingly fruitful study of Goethe's writings on
natural science. The National Socialistic understanding of man can
only be derived from race. To the extent to which race is a reality of
nature, it could appear that already in the point of departure there lay
an essential correlation between Rudolf Steiner's understanding of man,
and that of National Socialism: Steiner departs from the formative
forces of Nature and bases school-education on the development of
natural forces. One might thereby call his education "biologically"
founded.
However, if one were to attempt to introduce the concept of race as we
understand it into this biological foundation, it would explode
Steiner's understanding of man. This is because National Socialism
departs from the reality of blood, and from differences that exist
between groups of people of differing blood. We grasp these differences
not only biologically/anthropologically, but primarily historically, in
that we turn our attention to those things which people of varying
blood-heritage have produced and developed: the cities, works of art,
inventions, scientific systems, etc. Rudolf Steiner's understanding of
man has no access to this historical thinking derived from knowledge of
the reality of race. The position occupied in our world view by the man
determined by the forces of race is occupied in the world view of Rudolf
Steiner by the Spirit of Man, overeign over all history. The thought of
Rudolf Steiner is not biological-racist, but biological-cosmic."
Alfred Bauemler, Report on Waldorf Schools, 1937, in: Achim Leschinsky,
"Waldorf Schools in National Socialism", Neue Sammlung, May/June 1983,
p. 280 (original German text)
"Steiner is not only an epigone of idealistic philosophy, but he builds
upon the philosophy of the intellect (spirit) in a decided manner. The
fateful turning point occurs through the fact that Steiner replaces the
theory of heredity with a different, positive theory. He does not simply
overlook the biological reality, but rather consciously converts it to
its opposite. Anthroposophy is one of the most consequent antibiological
systems in existence." (p.401)
"Objectives of pedagogical activity: According to the basic assumptions
of anthroposophy, these objectives can only be humanistic, and not based
on race or ethnic groups."(p.403)
Alfred Bauemler, Report on Rudolf Steiner Philosophy, 1938, in: Uwe
Werner, Anthroposophen in der Zeit der Nationalsozialismus 1933-1945,
Muenchen, 1999, p. 401,403. (original German text)
5. "Anthroposophy and its Associated Institutions"
"Die Anthroposophie und ihre Zweckverbaende. Bericht unter Verwendung
von Ergebnissen der Aktion gegen Geheimlehren und sogenannte
Geheimwissenschaften vom 5.Juni 1941." RSHA ca. Oktober 1941.
("Anthroposophy and its Associated Institutions. Report applying
evidence from the Operation against Secret Teachings and so-called
Esoteric Sciences of June 5, 1941." RSHA, ca. October 1941.)
***************************************************************
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell
biology, EU, globalization and social threefolding
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 13:11:26 -0700
From: "Steve Premo" (steve premofine.com)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
On 2 May 2001, at 12:51, Debra Snell wrote:
) )dottie -
) )
) )Like the rest of the world until it was already too
) )late. A small group of Anthroposophists laid low. The
) )man they studied with was already a target for death
) )of the forming Nazi generation, and they chose to turn
) )to prayer, meditation and impacting their small
) )communities in ways that they could at the time.
)
) Debra:
)
) I'm happy to say that my elders didn't lay low. They fought in World War II
) against Hitler and his thugs, and I'm pretty proud of this.
And you should be. People talk about saving the world, but those folks,
those who fought for the Allies in that war, really did save the world.
To be fair, though, it was a lot easier for Americans to fight the Nazis
than for Germans. It was hard for Germans to do much except lay low once
the Nazis came to power (although I'm sure they could have done plenty to
try to prevent the Nazis from coming to power in the first place).
American men of fighting age were drafted, and it was hard for them to do
anything except fight in the war.
Here's an interesting question: does anyone know of Anthroposophists from
the UK, the US, France, or Russia, or any other allied country who fought
against Hitler? Any that were active members of the resistance in
countries that were occupied by Germany? Any that actively worked to help
Jews, Gypsies, gays, and others to escape the countries in which they were
persecuted by Nazis and Fascists?
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"There is a right and a wrong in the Universe and
that distinction is not difficult to make." - Superman
http://www.premofine.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 13:32:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
) ) Debra:
)
) Dottie, give us some quotes. Do the work to back up
) your claims. Debate the
) issue, don't just attack Dan.
)
)
)
dottie -
Please check Sunes notes on this day. However I do not
believe you would want to see those notes as they
contradict everything PLANS and Mr. Peter S. have
written regarding Dr. Steiner and the Nazis..
And are you getting sensitive these days with claiming
I am attacking Dan when I just put forth my opinion.
Whatever happened to 'this is not for the overly
sensitive' or does that apply to just people who value
what Dr. Steiner brought?
Now you ask for quotes. What would be nice is if you
tried to actually be open minded and not have your
finger in your ear while singing at the top of your
lungs, and read what Mr. Sune has brought forth.
However I think I would have a better chance at
waiting for hell to freeze over than to expect some
rational thoughts as Mr. Peter S. likes to speak
of...I wonder what he thinks of Sunes quotes?
It would be great if Mr. Peter S. actually practiced
what he preaches and did not resort to how he is
beginning to doubt Sunes knowledge of Anthroposophy.
Somehow people stop thinking and just believe
everything Mr Peter writes and they are so happy to
jump right on that band wagon. Something PLANS
complains that Anthroposophists do.
thanks,
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 13:39:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
Steve -
) Any that were active members of the
) resistance in
) countries that were occupied by Germany? Any that
) actively worked to help
) Jews, Gypsies, gays, and others to escape the
) countries in which they were
) persecuted by Nazis and Fascists?
)
dottie -
Theres a lot to be said for those who fought and gave
their lives for the cause.
And then there are those like Dr. Einstein who went
everywhere trying to get people to be conscientous
objectors in another war.
People respond in many different ways when a war is at
hand. It is so easy to Monday night quarterback others
peoples lives isn't it?
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 13:43:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
) Debra:
)
) I'm happy to say that my elders didn't lay low. They
) fought in World War II
) against Hitler and his thugs, and I'm pretty proud
) of this.
dottie -
My grandparents fought this war also. And i had
grandparents that ran from this war to this country.
Does that mean its right to judge others who gave what
they could whatever that would be?
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 22:49:32 +0200
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: On the seriously careless untruthfulness of Peter Staudenmaier
P.S.
I wrote, answering a question:
) how did the myth of being persecuted by the nazis begin in
) anthroposophist rhetoric?
by Alice Klinge.
I:
) Uwe Werner, Head Archivist at the 'Archiv Am Goeheanum' in Dornach,
) Switzerland, in 1999 published an extensive documentation on
) 'Anthroposophy in the time of Nazi Germany' (Verlag R. Oldenberg,
) Munich)
)
) In the book he writes: ...
Whether what he writes is 'anthroposophist rhetoric' I leave for you to
judge.
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell
biology, EU, globalization and social threefolding
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 21:59:15 -0400
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: jazz at High Mowing
Neil,
I read with interest your post/article about the visit of a jazz group to
High Mowing School.
It's nice to know that jazz is looked upon as *appropriate* music at *some*
Waldorf schools. I don't believe that the folks at my older girl's former
school felt the same way, for this reason.
Ever since Olivia was tiny, she wanted to play saxophone. We knew that
Waldorf students all learned to play recorder and one other instrument, and
that they would choose those instruments at the end of third grade. Olivia
waited patiently, and we told the teachers (music and otherwise) time and
again how excited Olivia was to begin learning saxophone. We knew, when O
was in the first and second grades, that the school did not have a saxophone
teacher. But we were told, over and over "We will find a way to respect the
child's wishes. If she wants to play saxophone, she should be able to play
the saxophone."
Well, er, that is NOT what happened. At the end of the third grade, OIivia's
class was given a small bit of time to fool around with a few instruments.
She goofed around with a cello and then picked up a violin. Apparently, she
was able to coax some kind of decent sound from it, because we later got a
call from the violin teacher. The teacher told us that she thought Olivia
was a natural, and would be a super duper violin player (my words, not hers)
if only she could be encouraged to play violin.
We told the teacher -- and the class teacher and the other teachers -- that
Olivia had been wanting to play saxophone for years. Well, that was too bad.
Now that the time had come, the school needed violin players, and we were
told that it would really be best for Olivia to play violin. After all, the
school did not have a saxophone teacher available, etc. (What happened to
"respecting the child's wishes?")
Olivia hated violin. She absolutely loathed it. She likes the big voice of
jazzy saxophone (which surprised the teachers, I think, as Olivia was
labelled "melancholid" in the early preschool years and melancholic children
are supposed to love the violin.) I tried working with the music teacher on
switching Olivia, but no one seemed to be listening. So I did the only thing
I could: I took the violin back to the instrument rental place and switched
it for a clarinet. The school *did* have a clarinet teacher, and I figured
that the clarinet is often taught before the saxophone, and has a voice that
is more in keeping with what Olivia wanted in the first place. I sent her in
with the clarinet one day with a note telling the music teacher that I knew
that the 4th grade orchestra would welcome Olivia to the clarinet section
with open arms.
In my view, this experience was just another example of the rigid Waldorf
approach to education. I could provide many more ... but most of you have
heard them all already.
-- Lisa
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 22:48:22 -0700
From: "Liz Reid&Errol Strelnikoff" (lizanderrol home.com)
Subject: Question regarding teeth
Hi,
I was wondering if anyone knows what the policy is at most Waldorf schools
regarding teeth and first grade. Can a child still enter first grade even
if they haven't lost any of their milk teeth? The child in question is six
and a half.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 16:57:57 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier
- III/III
At 9:51 AM -0700 5/2/01, dottie zold wrote:
)Dan -
)) To the best of my knowledge, Anthroposophists either
)) collaborated
)) with the Nazis
)
)dottie -
)
)Dan, what a terrible accusation against a man who
)worked as hard as he did to wake up others to a
)reality of a spiritual truth. Just ugly. And all for
)what? Time will tell the truth Mr. Dugan and those who
)study Steiner and work to make this world a better
)place will stand and it will be known that many of his
) teachings do lead to a better understanding of our
)world.
It's history, Dottie. Before the Nazis came to power, Steiner's
opposition to the rising tide was almost invisible. When threatened
he ran away to Switzerland. So much for leadership. The Nazis came to
power eight years after his death.
)Dan -
)or laid low to stay out of trouble.
)
)dottie -
)
)Like the rest of the world until it was already too
)late. A small group of Anthroposophists laid low. The
)man they studied with was already a target for death
)of the forming Nazi generation, and they chose to turn
)to prayer, meditation and impacting their small
)communities in ways that they could at the time.
Fucking wimps. Or worse. Steiner had followers in high places...helping Hitler.
)I read a book called the Spear of Destiny where it
)speaks of Hitler blaming Steiner for the fall of his
)war and Steiner had already been dead for fifteen
)years. Hitler, according to this book by Ravencroft,
)felt that Steiner had affected his generals from the
)spiritual plane. There is also a mention of one
)general in particular who was having a problem with
)the way Hitler was extinguishing people earlier on and
)he was demoted for cowardice.
That book is an Anthroposophical fantasy. It's fiction, Dottie, not fact.
)Dan -
)) The wife of an
)) Anthroposophist wrote:
))
)) "It was not a resistance group in the sense they
)) conspired against
)) Hitler, but it was a group that tried in a spiritual
)) and Christian
)) way to push through its goals and thereby be a
)) fortress against the
)) Nazis.
)
)dottie -
)
)Dan, do you think this is a bad note? If anything it
)shows how the group was unprepared to take on the
)Nazis and chose to do it in another way.
And chose to keep their heads in the sand while "destiny" played out
around them.
BTW, Dottie, did you know that the Waldorf schools fired their Jewish teachers?
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 16:59:16 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier
- III
Alice, you wrote,
)thank you,Sune for your studious response. It seems like there must be
)clear evidence of Steiner being targeted by the Nazis as an enemy.
)If so, then the anthroposophical claim to anti-Nazism would have some
)basis in reality. I wonder what Steiner said about Hitler?
)Did he discuss openly or privately about any perception of evil?
)I believe he wrote about "evil" - did his theories discuss
)personification of such?
Steiner did not speak against Hitler. Hitler targeted him because
Steiner had a political party and he was a rival.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 267
-- Topica Digest --
Bullying Behaviors Among US Youth
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
WE and "cross-cultural studies"/ was Re: The Ethers and biology concepts in educ
By paixs yahoo.com.br
Re: WE and "cross-cultural studies"/ was Re: The Ethers and biology
concepts i
By soma mwt.net
Re: On your seriously careful search for truth, all
By alice javanet.com
Re:magical mystery schools are waiting....
By soma mwt.net
Re: WE and "cross-cultural studies"/ was Re: The Ethers and biology concepts in
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: WE and "cross-cultural studies"/ was Re: The Ethers and biology concepts i
By winters_diana hotmail.com
RE: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
By lizanderrol home.com
Re: Question regarding teeth
By snell netshel.net
RE: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier
- III/III
By snell netshel.net
RE: WE and "cross-cultural studies"/ was Re: The Ethers and biology concepts in
By lizanderrol home.com
rough tone of list!
By momof2gals mindspring.com
RE: rough tone of list! - new threads?
By lizanderrol home.com
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
By dottie_z yahoo.com
RE: rough tone of list! - new threads?
By dan dandugan.com
us angry critics
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier
- III/III
By dan dandugan.com
racial characterizations
By dan dandugan.com
Difference between Free Schools and WE
By lizanderrol home.com
RE: us angry critics
By lizanderrol home.com
Waldorf teacher training
By momof2gals mindspring.com
RE: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
By rbc supranet.com
anthros and Nazis and dragons, oh my
By rbc supranet.com
Re: Waldorf teacher training
By dottie_z yahoo.com
RE: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
By dottie_z yahoo.com
RE: Waldorf teacher training
By dottie_z yahoo.com
RE: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III
By dottie_z yahoo.com
anthros, Nazis, and us
By rbc supranet.com
RE: Waldorf teacher training
By snell netshel.net
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
By dottie_z yahoo.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 11:38:10 GMT
From: Sune Nordwall (sune.nordwall home.se)
Subject: Bullying Behaviors Among US Youth
http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v285n16/abs/joc01746.html
Prevalence and Association With Psychosocial Adjustment
Tonja R. Nansel, PhD; Mary Overpeck, DrPH; Ramani S. Pilla,
PhD; W. June Ruan, MA; Bruce Simons-Morton, EdD, MPH; Peter
Scheidt, MD, MPH
Context
Although violence among US youth is a current major
concern, bullying is infrequently addressed and no national
data on the prevalence of bullying are available.
Objectives
To measure the prevalence of bullying behaviors among US
youth and to determine the association of bullying and
being bullied with indicators of psychosocial adjustment,
including problem behavior, school adjustment,
social/emotional adjustment, and parenting.
Design, Setting, and Participants
Analysis of data from a representative sample of 15 686
students in grades 6 through 10 in public and private
schools throughout the United States who completed the
World Health Organization's Health Behaviour in School-aged
Children survey during the spring of 1998.
Main Outcome Measure
Self-report of involvement in bullying and being bullied by
others.
Results
A total of 29.9% of the sample reported moderate or
frequent involvement in bullying, as a bully (13.0%), one
who was bullied (10.6%), or both (6.3%). Males were more
likely than females to be both perpetrators and targets of
bullying. The frequency of bullying was higher among 6th-
through 8th-grade students than among 9th- and 10th-grade
students. Perpetrating and experiencing bullying were
associated with poorer psychosocial adjustment (P(.001);
however, different patterns of association occurred among
bullies, those bullied, and those who both bullied others
and were bullied themselves.
Conclusions
The prevalence of bullying among US youth is substantial.
Given the concurrent behavioral and emotional difficulties
associated with bullying, as well as the potential long-
term negative outcomes for these youth, the issue of
bullying merits serious attention, both for future research
and preventive intervention.
JAMA. 2001;285:2094-2100
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological
cell biology, EU and social threefolding
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 09:02:59 -0300
From: "CP" (paixs yahoo.com.br)
Subject: WE and "cross-cultural studies"/ was Re: The Ethers and biology concepts in education
Rather late in the upkeep - sorry -, I have a
comment on the topic : "cross-cultural studies" in
WE.
Diana points out to Jeff, below, that the approach
to the Bible, myths and etc. at WSs cannot be
called "cross cultural studies", as Jeff did. I
FULLY agree with Diana¥s point and evidence
provided, and want to add:
The critical approach - including comparing
different cultures and viewpoints, forming your
own judgement about them, etc. - is not only
avoided with small children, but also at High
School, in my experience.
I could bring one example. We had philosophy
courses at HS with a very famous/respected
anthroposophist (a guru, you can say).
This is how it went: the teacher would lecture
about the history of ancient/classic western
philosophy and DICTATE (yes, I said DICTATE) it
all to us. Our job was simply to copy everything
down and hand in a beautiful copybook in the end
of the course. We were evaluated by those books -
slacky? careful handwriting? nice drawings? etc.
There was:
NO time for questions;
NO input by the students;
NO reading, AT ALL, of any text whatsoever;
NO discussion, NO debate;
and of course - NO forming your own critical
judgement.
(... and I would say - consequently, NO
philosophy).
And mind you, what the teacher dictated was not
what could be called known, established facts
(even then, I wouldn¥t recommend that approach,
but...). I remember having to write down the
teacher¥s opinions on controversial subjects as if
they were facts; one sentence that I hated to
write down was: "MARX¥S PHILOSOPHY IS NOTHING BUT
RUBBISH" - litterally (or the nearest equivalent
in Portuguese). I remember it well because it made
me cringe, my father being very left-oriented and
a marxist. I also remember the teacher¥s evident
pleasure in saying this.
So that was it. I just wanted to bring forward
this example, especially to Jeff, in case he still
thinks the waldorf approach encourages
"cross-cultural" studies.
Just one further detail: the course I describe was
conducted in 11th grade - in our case, when we
were 17.
I said - SEVENTEEN, and taking DICTATION for a
philosophy course.
Clara
**************************************************
*********
|
| [Jeff:]
| )Maybe not in science but certainly in cross
cultural studies or )history.
|
| Jeff, perhaps you are not aware that what you
are recommending, which sounds
| very open-minded and multicultural, is *not*
what happens in Waldorf. It has
| also been suggested on this list that this is
how the world religions are
| taught in Waldorf - as a sort of cross-cultural,
comparative religion thing.
| Now who could object to our children learning
about many cultures, many
| viewpoints?
|
| What is done is presenting ideas like the four
elements (science example) or
| stories from the Old Testament (religion
example) in an uncritical,
| "experiential," immersion mode (to the younger
children in stories, through
| puppetry, songs, etc). The kids live it and
breathe it, copy it in their
| books, illustrate it, embellish the borders
nicely, and that's that.
|
| For it to be a comparative, cross-cultural
thing, there would have to be
| discussion of fact versus myth, science versus
legend, or pointing out that
| some people think one thing and some people
think another. It is very simple
| (and not, IMO, too "intellectual") to do this
even with young kids. In other
| words, critical thought, analysis, comparison,
judgment. - All dirty words
| in Waldorf, for any child under puberty.
|
| If you're going to do this "open-mindedness"
thing, you also have to
| encourage the kids to develop - or at least not
squash - the skills to sort
| things out for themselves. Otherwise it's not
far from indoctrination, or at
| best a confusing mishmash.
|
| Jeff:
| )There is no reason alternative science models
cannot be introduced (as )it
| )was to me at UW Madison as the History of
Science).
|
| Yes, but were you not encouraged to evaluate,
compare, contrast, analyze the
| different models? Or did you just meditate on
the symbols and themes
| associated with these different models? The
latter would be closer to how
| they are taught in Waldorf. It is not a "history
of science" approach. It's
| Sunday school: tell a story, illustrate the
story, kids go home believing
| the story. Hardly think your UW courses were
like that.
| Diana
|
|
__________________________________________________
_______________
| Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
http://explorer.msn.com
|
|
=================
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 09:16:12 -0700
From: soma (soma mwt.net)
Subject: Re: WE and "cross-cultural studies"/ was Re: The Ethers and biology
concepts in educ
soma wrote:
) Clara Paix wrote:
) I have a comment on the topic : "cross-cultural studies" in WE.
)
) Sharon:
) Can't resist posting this! As most of you know, slides, films or
) photographs are a "no no" in Waldorf. This is a fact I only learned
) about *after* I had enrolled my daughter and wanted to bring in a
) wonderful film for a fundraiser at the Christmas fair. (Personally, I
) think this little fact should be mentioned on the brochure for
) prospective parents).
)
) Anthroposophists believe that when you sleep (bed time and nap time) you
) leave your body and commune with the spirit world.
)
) "Imagination" means "spiritual site" in Anthrospeak.
)
) The Akasha (which occultists believe exists) is the equivalent to ether
) or astral substance. The akasha records every human thought, memory and
) experience which is embedded in the ether, a "virtual library" of sorts.
) Clairvoyants are said to be able to read this record. Waldorf is a
) training for children to read the Akasha. Read this from Anthroposophist
) Mc Allen.....enjoy!
)
) [Audrey E. Mc. Allen. Sleep: an unobserved Element in Education. P 33]
)
) "As the sleep life extends into the elemental world, so the Akasha of
) the earth with its store of memory also becomes visible. This is a
) geographical time-memory. Just as in earlier periods of history, the
) pupil of the Mysteries went from centre to centre for his training, so
) in sleep the history of the earth shines up to us from the geographical
) place of its happenings. In the middle school years the great cultural
) epochs are recapitulated by the retelling of the myths and legends
) appertaining to them, with these imaginations living in them, the souls
) can re-find their reality in the spiritual memory of the planet. It
) becomes clear to the teacher that the children in a class have a
) particular affinity with one or other of these epochs. The joy and
) interest and the will engendered help the child to come from the past
) into the present.
)
) As the child approaches puberty, he becomes dimly aware of his skeleton
) as an objective element in his soul life, something outside of him in
) his inner-space experience. It is now that chronological history is
) introduced through biography; the soul begins to be able to
) differentiate from a group experience to a more individual one. He finds
) his affinity in the earth's memory to his own periods of incarnation in
) historical time.
)
) Geography is also taught in the context of the peoples of the regions
) described, together with their myths and customs. These graphically
) described and lived in by the teacher, enable the class as a group soul
) to experience in sleep the elemental areas that are pictured. Thus the
) world is experienced in the child's soul as a living historical
) geographical whole in space-time, not as a foreign body, but as the
) living Mother Being who carries us during our earthly life-time.
) Confidence of soul and the will to incarnate spring up from the sleep
) experiences. A right teaching method enables the soul and spirit to
) bring over into the present earth life the fruits of previous
) incarnations.
)
) In this respect we see how important it is not to use visual aids,
) especially in Geography, i.e. slides and photographs of people and
) places.* In both History and Geography it is the graphic description
) which calls on the child to make inner visual pictures which stimulate
) the will and enliven the body of formative forces, then the soul can
) find the appropriate spiritual counterpart in the earth's Akasha. The
) interaction of the two helps him to take hold of his body with full
) strength of his individuality.
)
) *This does not apply to drawings and paintings. Here the artist has
) solved the problem of transferring three- dimensional space onto a
) two-dimensional plane."
)
) Sharon:
) Good ol' Audrey found that some of her pupils were interested in Greek
) culture, she sensed that a Greek incarnation is a central one for many
) souls so she began to teach Greek letters as a ball-throwing game and
) painted selected Greek letters in repetitive sequences. The
) reincarnating children really benefited! (One of the letters was an
) abbreviation for "Christ")
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 20:41:00 -0400
From: alice (alice javanet.com)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careful search for truth, all
dottie zold wrote:
)
) Alice
) ) I would imagine that they would believe their
) ) spiritual forces would be
) ) enough to overcome the worldly evil around them.
) ) Unfortunately, from what I understand, it did not
) ) save any lives.
)
) dottie -
)
) I do not believe they thought their spiritual forces
) would BE ENOUGH to OVERCOME worldly evil. It was the
) way they personally could respond to what was
) happening around them.
[Alice comments]
What do you mean by that...it was ALL they could do???
They were not capable of any other action, or they chose not to.
And no, it seems not even the
) countries of our world with all thier machinery could
) save millions who perished in that despicable war.
)[Alice comments]
I am not sure that "the countries of our world" were even trying to save
the millions who perished. that was not my perception of the war, from
what I remember even the U.S. was hesitant to open it's doors to the
persecuted and to make public the evidence of the holocaust as it was
going on.
) Alice
) )
) ) It reveals more about your blind need for faith when
) ) you attack Dan and
) ) call him a liar.
)
) dottie -
)
) Why would you possibly claim that I attacked Dan when
) I just stated my opinion of what he wrote? And I did
) not call him a liar.
[Alice comments]
without referring back to your posts, I thought the tone of your post
was unnecessarily rough and irritable and personally attacking Dan.
AGAIN... It seems you have certainly judged him as a "bad guy".
You said that once again he was telling 'untruths" - wouldn't that by
definition make him a liar in your opinion?
)
) And as far as blind faith it seems you would have that
) opinion as mine is very different than yours and that
) makes my faith wrong and blind. And you do not even
) know what my faith pertains to, do you?
)
) Alice
) ) I believe that Steiner and many others preached
) ) BALANCE.
) )
)
) dottie -
)
) You are absolutely right I am glad we can agree on
) that!
)[Alice comments]
Then practice what you talk about and find the balance within you.This
kind of "tirade" seems to come from you every now and then. I have tried
to honor your work - your motivation for living, etc. Yet, I feel
attacked too, when I try and defend someone who I believe does not
deserve the label that you give him.
) Alice -
) ) Why can't you allow full humanity in dialogue, even
) ) with someone you
) ) don't agree with?
) )
) dottie -
)
) Isn't that what I did when I responded to Mr. Dugan.
) It seems you are the one at the moment that is not
) wanting to allow the dialogue I have to offer.
)
) thanks,
) dottie
)[Alice concludes]
Dottie, I am happy you are doing your good works etc. We all have to
live our faiths and find our own truths. If you want to use a
transactional analysis idea, you seem to be in the "victim, persecutor,
rescuer" triangle. It's easy to get there and be bounced from point to
point, never escaping...It will make you feel angry if anyone challenges
your beliefs, and that seems to be what happens.
Have you ever bothered asking about my beliefs?See the missing part of
dialogue?
respectfully,
Alice
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 10:49:23 -0700
From: soma (soma mwt.net)
Subject: Re:magical mystery schools are waiting....
Sharon:
Attn. Neil. Here is the response I gave to Chris Bostrup (ages ago) who
said that the article by Grand Master Clayson, which I posted, claimed
that mystery schools were a group of *conscious* people working
together, therefore Waldorf isn't a mystery school. I say that Waldorf
is a mystery school because the teachers are conscious as well as some
of the parents, perhaps some students. Eugene Schwartz called Waldorf
teacher training a mystery school, and he said that in the future,
Waldorf will be the modern mystery school, real mystery schools. I take
this to mean that in the future, after PLANS exposes Waldorf for what it
is, Waldorf will be real mystery schools where *everyone* is conscious
about the esoteric teachings, teachers, parents, pupils, and prospective
parents! In the post below I explain specific mysteries that the
children are taught in Waldorf by the conscious teachers, for example:
the Mythraic, Eleusinian and Egyptian Osirian Mysteries. I have
documentation of these mysteries from the Waldorf lesson books. (In the
post below I don't mention Eurythmy, moral color exercises, spiritual
writing/form drawing, sacred geometry, etc....all areas of study that
one would expect to find in a mystery school which trains children to
read the Akasha and prepares them for this and their future
reincarnations.) Here is my response to Chris that was ignored, **don't
miss** the definitions of initiate/initiation at the bottom of this
post:
Sharon wrote on 5th Jan 2001:
)
) Chris Brostrup-Jensen wrote:
)
)) I still think that based on Sharon's own, quite specific, definition
))
)) of "mystery school" Waldorf does not qualify, but I've promised
)) not to fight that battle any more. Just had to flag this one.
)
) Sharon:
) Chris, I left town and didn't have a chance to defend my post. I stand
) by my assertion that Waldorf schools are mystery centers, and can't
) fathom why you think Waldorf does not qualify?
)
) In my quote from 'The Rosicrucian Digest', Feb. 1952, Grand Master
) Rodman R. Clayson wrote on p 70, "The Druid mystery schools were
) particularly strong in Gaul and Britain during the period of the Roman
) conquest. In their teachings a *simpler moral code was taught to all,
) while the deeper esoteric teachings were given only to the
) initiated*." Perhaps Neil would accept this since he pointed out that
) Waldorf teacher training centers were mystery centers?
)
) Don't think of the training schools as separate from Waldorf schools.
) The teachers are Initiated, there are varying degrees. Some have more
) occult knowledge than others. The children are Initiates because I
) heard an indoctrinated teacher calling them that, which is why I won't
) budge on my assertion that Waldorf schools are mystery centers.
)
) Chris, have you ever looked at a Waldorf student's lesson books from
) KG-8th grade? I have had the privelege of looking through tubs of
) lesson books from a family with several children who attended Waldorf
) for years. I highly recommend that you sit and look through one
) child's work from KG-8th. (In KG you will see only talismans, no
) lesson books). When you see the work as a whole, things will become
) clearer. Very briefly and roughly I will show you what I think. I
) have documented some of the mysteries in the children's books that I
) looked at which I'd like to organize and post one day. In the mean
) time, take a look at one child's lesson books at your Waldorf school.
)
) Steiner's Line of Initiations (part of the curriculum) with lots of
) help from Grand Master Clayson's article on mystery schools. I know
) this is very rough and still needs work, but please hear me out.
)
) 1st sub race - ancient Indian culture. [Bacchic rites were of a high
) order, Bacchus was an Oriental deity, Sabaen was the Oriental name for
) the deity.] I need to find this, ignore this for now.
)
) 2nd sub race - Zarathustra culture [The Mythraic mysteries are the
) simplified teachings of Zoroaster, the Persian Mystic. Mythras, the
) god of intelligence mediates Ormazd, representing good and Ahriman,
) representing evil.] I have this mystery documented in a lesson book.
)
) 3rd sub race - Babyl. Assyr. culture [Egyptian Osirian mysteries, Set
) kills his brother Osiris who was ressurected and had an afterlife.
) Isis the sister wife of Osiris recovered the body. This initiation
) showed that Osiris represented the earthly creative forces as well as
) virtue and goodness. Set was the manifestation of evil, it was pointed
) out that the two forces of good and evil were continually in
) conflict.] I have this mystery documented in a lesson book.
)
) 4th sub race - Greco - Roman world [Eleusinian mysteries, principle
) characters in the mystery were Demeter and her daughter Persephone,
) goddesses of agriculture. This initiation taught immortality, just as
) plants die in the winter and are reborn in the spring, man will be
) resurrected in the heaven of the ancients, the Elysium.] I have this
) documented in a lesson book.
)
) 5th sub race - Germanic culture [Teutonic mythology, traditional
) beliefs of the Germanic peoples, including Odin the head of the Aesir
) (heroic gods), Ymir, Valhalla the resting place of slain warriors.
) Next in line comes Thor, others of the pantheon included Balder and
) Loki, etc.] I have this documented in a lesson book.
)
) There are also Old Testament stories, Legends of the Holy People, and
) other mysteries.
)
) There is a lot on mystery centers in the Poplawski Eurythmy book which
) I think Dan owns and perhaps he will post a few snippets for us if he
) has time.
)
) Here are a couple of useful definitions from "The Magician's
) Companion, A Practical Guide to Magical and Religious Symbolism" by
) Bill Whitcomb 1999, Llewellyn Publications, St. Paul MN. Apply these
) definitions to pupils or to teachers and see what you think.
)
) INITIATE: 1. Someone possessed of a secret or interior knowledge
) gained through experience.
)
) 2. Someone who has approached the occult through systematic training,
) usually through a lodge or other organization.
)
) INITIATION: 1: An intense personal experience resulting in an
) integration or validation of previous personal development.
)
) 2: A ritual used to signify entrance or progression in a magical or
) religious organization, frequently intended to bring about such an
) intense personal experience. Used informally to mean the knowledge or
) access to secret or occult information. Also used to refer to any rite
) of passage.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 17:08:05 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: WE and "cross-cultural studies"/ was Re: The Ethers and biology concepts in educ
Clara described her Waldorf high school philosophy class:
)the teacher would lecture about the history of ancient/classic western
)philosophy and DICTATE (yes, I said DICTATE) it
)all to us. Our job was simply to copy everything
)down and hand in a beautiful copybook in the end
)of the course.
)NO time for questions;
)NO input by the students;
)NO reading, AT ALL, of any text whatsoever;
)NO discussion, NO debate;
)and of course - NO forming your own critical
)judgement.
and as an example of what they had to copy:
)"MARX¥S PHILOSOPHY IS NOTHING BUT RUBBISH" - litterally
Well, if even in a high school philosophy course, there are no books to
read, it becomes clearer why it is not a problem when 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th
graders can't read.
Conveniently, in case anyone would like to suggest that things have changed
since Clara's days in WE, a Waldorf high school teacher on the SJU list,
asked about the history curriculum, posted this morning that the class
involves "observation" with 9th graders, "copying" and "stories" with 10th
graders (how is this any different from 3rd grade?), and that with 11th
graders - finally! - critical thinking "emerges."
That would be age 16 (or 17, if you figure some didn't start 1st grade till
age 7, as Waldorf prefers). So much for critical thinking suddenly being
encouraged after puberty.
There was also a suggestion on the SJU list recently that Waldorf should
offer two post-high school years in order to hang onto the kids till they're
almost 21, since quitting at age 18 means Waldorf has never really gotten
Steiner's magical idea of the three 7-year stages quite right. Egads,
Waldorf becomes K-14. (Imagine two more years of dictation, Clara. :)
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 17:15:11 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: WE and "cross-cultural studies"/ was Re: The Ethers and biology concepts i
Sharon quotes Audrey McAllen:
) ) In this respect we see how important it is not to use visual aids,
) ) especially in Geography, i.e. slides and photographs of people and
) ) places.*
So this morning we have learned (from Clara) that in philosophy, it is not
necessary for students to read books, and (from Sharon) that in geography it
is important that they not have "visual aids." (Teach geography without
visual aids? Presumably that includes maps? Good grief.)
Mystery initiation starts to seem more plausible than anything the rest of
us understand by "education," does it not?
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 10:22:38 -0700
From: "Liz Reid&Errol Strelnikoff" (lizanderrol home.com)
Subject: RE: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
I just joined this list a few days ago and I am amazed at the conversations
so far. Do you guys really think that this is helping at all? The tone is
so bad that I don't think you will get many people to stay for long unless
they like to argue just for the sake of arguing. What people are saying on
this list merely confirms what other people think about those who dislike
WE. You are doing WE a favour by continuing with these posts.
I don't expect any of you to stop as you are obviously enjoying yourselves
too much to do that, but I just thought I'd mention it.
As for the Nazi question, so many people collaborated with Hitler inside and
outside Germany. People in the US and in England fired their Jewish
employees. I realise that you are all responding to exaggerated accounts of
how Steiner's followers worked against the National Socialists but the tone
of your responses are in no way convincing to anyone. Again though I think
that the enjoyment you are all having will ensure that these posts will
continue.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 10:25:28 -0700
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: Question regarding teeth
)Hi,
)I was wondering if anyone knows what the policy is at most Waldorf schools
)regarding teeth and first grade. Can a child still enter first grade even
)if they haven't lost any of their milk teeth? The child in question is six
)and a half.
Debra:
That depends on the Waldorf school. How strongly do you feel about it? What
is the enrollment like? Is there a waiting list for first grade? Does the
school need money? If they think you may leave if your child is not
admitted to first grade, they may make an exception.
Please don't hold a 6 1/2 yr. old back again! Statistics show that older
children are much more likely to drop out of high school. Nineteen year old
seniors are just too old for high school, developmentally.
I know of two Waldorf kids who skipped a grade towards the end of their
elementary schooling, after leaving Waldorf. Not that they were academic
genius kids - they weren't by a long shot - but they were just too old
developmentally and the school urged the parents to skip them ahead,
looking out for their futures. That can be very hard on kids. Public
schooling is so much harder than Waldorf. (read: real education) My son
thought public school was for gifted kids after he transferred from Waldorf.
Waldorf wanted to hold my youngest son back in kindergarten. I am soo glad
that I just *insisted* he move ahead. His birthday is in March, and the
school felt he needed another year. He was already bored stiff in
kindergarten. I would have lost all of his respect if I would have held him
back.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 11:02:58 -0700
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: RE: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier
- III/III
)I just joined this list a few days ago and I am amazed at the conversations
)so far. Do you guys really think that this is helping at all? The tone is
)so bad that I don't think you will get many people to stay for long unless
)they like to argue just for the sake of arguing. What people are saying on
)this list merely confirms what other people think about those who dislike
)WE. You are doing WE a favour by continuing with these posts.
Debra:
Why don't you start a new thread and see what happens?
)I don't expect any of you to stop as you are obviously enjoying yourselves
)too much to do that, but I just thought I'd mention it.
Debra:
You must have joined for a reason. What is it? Maybe we can be civil. Try
us out! Do you have kids in Waldorf school?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 11:09:14 -0700
From: "Liz Reid&Errol Strelnikoff" (lizanderrol home.com)
Subject: RE: WE and "cross-cultural studies"/ was Re: The Ethers and biology concepts in
This is not much different from my high school experience in Germany. We
didn't use text books either, the teacher told us the lesson and we took
notes in our books and studied those notes to pass the tests. This
continues all the way through high school as far as the Gymnasium I went to
was concerned. And in Germany children do stay at school until they are
twenty or so if they want to go to University anyway. I suspect this is not
all that uncommon in many parts of the world. Of course this doesn't mean
that I like it, I'm just pointing out that is not so unusual.
) -----Original Message-----
) From: Diana Winters [mailto:winters_diana hotmail.com]
) Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 10:08 AM
) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) Subject: Re: WE and "cross-cultural studies"/ was Re: The Ethers and
) biology concepts in
)
)
)
) Clara described her Waldorf high school philosophy class:
)
) )the teacher would lecture about the history of ancient/classic western
) )philosophy and DICTATE (yes, I said DICTATE) it
) )all to us. Our job was simply to copy everything
) )down and hand in a beautiful copybook in the end
) )of the course.
)
)
) )NO time for questions;
) )NO input by the students;
) )NO reading, AT ALL, of any text whatsoever;
) )NO discussion, NO debate;
) )and of course - NO forming your own critical
) )judgement.
)
) and as an example of what they had to copy:
)
) )"MARX¥S PHILOSOPHY IS NOTHING BUT RUBBISH" - litterally
)
) Well, if even in a high school philosophy course, there are no books to
) read, it becomes clearer why it is not a problem when 1st, 2nd,
) 3rd and 4th
) graders can't read.
)
) Conveniently, in case anyone would like to suggest that things
) have changed
) since Clara's days in WE, a Waldorf high school teacher on the SJU list,
) asked about the history curriculum, posted this morning that the class
) involves "observation" with 9th graders, "copying" and "stories"
) with 10th
) graders (how is this any different from 3rd grade?), and that with 11th
) graders - finally! - critical thinking "emerges."
)
) That would be age 16 (or 17, if you figure some didn't start 1st
) grade till
) age 7, as Waldorf prefers). So much for critical thinking suddenly being
) encouraged after puberty.
)
)
) There was also a suggestion on the SJU list recently that Waldorf should
) offer two post-high school years in order to hang onto the kids
) till they're
) almost 21, since quitting at age 18 means Waldorf has never really gotten
) Steiner's magical idea of the three 7-year stages quite right. Egads,
) Waldorf becomes K-14. (Imagine two more years of dictation, Clara. :)
)
) Diana
) _________________________________________________________________
) Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 14:05:11 -0400
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: rough tone of list!
In a recent post, newcomers (by the way, welcome!) Liz and Errol say:
((I just joined this list a few days ago and I am amazed at the
conversations
so far. Do you guys really think that this is helping at all? The tone is
so bad that I don't think you will get many people to stay for long unless
they like to argue just for the sake of arguing. What people are saying on
this list merely confirms what other people think about those who dislike
WE. You are doing WE a favour by continuing with these posts.))
Lisa here: Liz and Errol (well, probably just Liz, as it sounds as if only
one person is actually posting!), I am sorry that you are finding the
critics list unhelpful. Conversations and debates *do* tend to get very
rough-and-tumble at times, as those of us who are staunchly critical of
Waldorf education often offer our points of view and experiences in a very
straightforward manner that definitely *can* be a shock to newcomers.
I honestly am sorry that you are not getting the information you seek
here on the critics' list. But please remember: this is a list set up
specifically FOR the examination of Waldorf pedagogy under a strong (some
would say "harsh") light. In fact, Waldorf critics is, as far as I know, the
*only* internet discussion list that looks at Waldorf education from OUTSIDE
of the Waldorf system ... on the "official" Waldorf discussion list (SJU
stjohns), asking too many pointed questions or being too critical (and what
that "too" means varies from time to time) of anything Waldorf will get one
kicked off the list. At the very least, too questioning of a tone will
result in the moderator ending that discussion thread.
Not so here on critics. Yes, the tone can become hostile at times, but
at least each person here knows that as long as he or she does not engage in
ad hominem attacks, his or her question will be given time and attention.
Certainly, this list is a tough place for people who like Waldorf for
the most part and joined just to learn about "possible downsides" of the
approach.
But please realize that those of us who call ourselves "critics" have
had, for the most part, some quite disturbing and, at the very least,
disappointing, experiences with Waldorf pedagogy and Waldorf schools. One
point that might interest you is that many of these unfortunate and
disturbing experiences happened at a number of different schools, so the
claim that "oh, your child just went to one not-so-good Waldorf school"
doesn't wash.
Did you know that there is an actual e-mail discussion group for people
who call themselves "Waldorf survivors?" Yes, it's true. More than 50 people
from a number of different countries (including US, countries in Europe, and
South America) feel strongly enough that Waldorf was damaging either to
themselves (some are former students, teachers, administrators) or to their
children that they spend time online talking about it, sharing experiences
and support.
I personally came onto this list some years ago as a very enthusiastic
parent of a Waldorf school student. I, too, found this a very hostile place.
Every question I asked, every point I made, I was attacked. I eventually
left.
Unfortunately, almost everything I had heard online (on this list) about
WE turned out to be true! I ended up coming back, tail between my legs, in
an effort to understand all that had happened to our family and to my
daughter.
Now I spend time on this list and survivors hoping to do what I can to
ensure that any family considering Waldorf school for their child/ren are
*fully* informed about what Waldorf really is (a spiritual science school
that views "education" in a very different way than the term normally is
used.)
If, after getting the whole story, families still choose to enroll their
children in Waldorf, then that is their own choice to make. My goal (and
that of most critics I know) is just to do what we can to help all parents
learn what we did not know about WE, so they can make an informed decision.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 11:59:32 -0700
From: "Liz Reid&Errol Strelnikoff" (lizanderrol home.com)
Subject: RE: rough tone of list! - new threads?
I did join the other Waldorf list and I did come
close to being kicked off. I do have a child in a
Waldorf type public school and I am fully aware of
the problems that these schools have. I come from
a free school background so my criticisms are very
different from probably everyone else on this
list. I shan't bother going into it as the kind
of childhood I would like for my kids would
probably get more criticism than WE from everyone.
So we'll leave that subject out.
I am just disapointed that this list has such a
vicious tone. Even people who feel critical of WE
will have to think that it is no wonder that some
of the people writing on this list were given a
hard time at Waldorf schools, as who would want
them in any school. It is as if people think:
"If I sound really mad then people will think that
WE must be really bad to have made them so mad."
But this is not how it works.
The aspects that I found interesting regarding WE
and Nazism were the points about keeping the
schools open as they were such good foundations
for mind engineering. I think that is fascinating
as it is my biggest worry at my son's school. But
then I find public schools (or what some people on
this list have termed 'real education') is also
excellent preparation for conditioning children.
Another aspect I wonder about is the training of
teachers. I remember reading somewhere that
Steiner wrote that Waldorf teachers must be what
some people would call 'enlightened' people. I
forget the exact terms he used. However,I can't
understand how this can be considered the same as
spending two years at a teacher's college.
Liz
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 14:36:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
) Dan -
) It's history, Dottie. Before the Nazis came to
) power, Steiner's
) opposition to the rising tide was almost invisible.
dottie -
First of all Dan, Dr. Steiner died in 1925. Hitler was
just getting started. Have you read Sunes post
yesterday regarding this issue. Or do you just
consider it rubbish because it doesn't jive with your
opinion?
Dan -
) When threatened
) he ran away to Switzerland. So much for leadership.
) The Nazis came to
) power eight years after his death.
)
dottie -
Dan, LEADERS of the whole world could not face up to
what was going on in Germany. And what groups put
their Leader on the front line to be killed? He spoke
against it to the best he could. What did you expect
that he would grab a gun and just start a militia?
Please Dan, this is ridiculous.
Why do you insist on holding this man who founded a
spiritual group accountable for what the NAZIS did?
Did you expect that he would have superhuman powers
that could have stopped these men? Or maybe he should
have organized his spiritual students and gave them
arms. Now that would have been intersting.
) )Dan -
) )or laid low to stay out of trouble.
Dan -
) Fucking wimps. Or worse. Steiner had followers in
) high places...helping Hitler.
)
dottie -
Dan you can not really expect to be taken seriously
when you speak like this. Really. All his works speak
towards bringing light and love into the world.
Wimps! You realize that that comment is one of the
worst judgements a man can make on another man, when
not having been in his shoes, right? Its also one of
the reasons many of our young men are in such trouble
these days. Trying to live up to their fathers
opinions on what makes a man.
dottie -
) )I read a book called the Spear of Destiny where it
) )speaks of Hitler blaming Steiner for the fall of
) his
) )war and Steiner had already been dead for fifteen
) )years.
Dan -
) That book is an Anthroposophical fantasy. It's
) fiction, Dottie, not fact.
)
dottie -
Well Dan, have you read that book before you judge it?
As far as I know it was not written by an
Anthroposophist but I will check it out. It had only a
few pages out of five hundred or so that spoke on
Steiner. It speaks of the occult and how Mr. Churchill
thought that it was best to keep such evil from church
going people as they would not understand such
things.
It goes onto speak of Hitler and his top generals and
their despicable doings and how they were very deep
into the 'black magic' at the time.
) )Dan -
) And chose to keep their heads in the sand while
) "destiny" played out
) around them.
)
) BTW, Dottie, did you know that the Waldorf schools
) fired their Jewish teachers?
)
dottie -
And did you hear the reason why? And I imagine that
those Jewish teachers were understanding of the choice
the school was faced with. Whether to keep the good
work with children with disabilities, and so forth
going, or to be shut down and have the children
suffer. I think the Jewish teachers and the whole
group came about to a just understanding of the times
no matter how difficult it was on all.
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 15:49:40 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: RE: rough tone of list! - new threads?
Liz, your wrote,
)I come from
)a free school background so my criticisms are very
)different from probably everyone else on this
)list. I shan't bother going into it as the kind
)of childhood I would like for my kids would
)probably get more criticism than WE from everyone.
)So we'll leave that subject out.
I'm not clear what you mean here, because in some countries
(Netherlands, for example) Waldorf schools are called "free schools."
Did you go to a Waldorf school?
-Dan
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 20:17:39 -0400
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: us angry critics
Dear Liz (and the rest of the list!):
I was happy that you responded to my post regarding the often strident and
angry tone of this list. I am glad as well that you began a new thread --
one regarding teacher training -- and plan to respond to that in another
post.
First, though, I wanted to respond to a comment you made. You said,
basically, that those of us who now are "Waldorf critics" have such an
angry, strident, and "vicious" tone that it is no wonder we were not
welcomed with open arms at our children's former schools. (I think the exact
words were something like "who would want them ...."
Now, I am not going to claim that I can charm the angels from the heavens or
anything like that. (g) But I *did* want to say that I *was* welcomed with
open arms and enthusiasm at my daughters' former Waldorf school for the
first five years we were there. So were many of the other "core" critics
here, including Debra (who started a public WS, for crying out loud!),
Diana, Dan, and Sharon, among others.
It was only when I/we started asking questions, and/or expressing
frustration/dissatisfaction/puzzlement/bewilderment about certain aspects of
the way the schools were run (issues involving everything from teacher
training, which you so aptly brought up, to the way reading is or isn't
taught, etc.) that people and the atmospheres at the schools turned
decidedly chilly.
In other words, the school staff and faculty liked me and my husband (and
our children) very much indeed and was very happy to take our time and our
money every month (and more when we could give it) until our daughter's
education (so-called) began to take a downward spiral, and we began to try
to talk to the teacher(s) about it.
I look back, in fact, and realize that we were *much* more patient and
obliging (much more willing to listen to the teacher's view and to go with
her plans) than we should have been -- for our daughter's own good! Like
many Waldorf parents, we had the notion that, somehow, our Waldorf school
class teacher was privy to some kind of special insights and knowledge about
our child that we didn't have. (We would not have articulated it that way at
the time, but that is what it amounted to!) I saw this phenomenon again and
again at our former school (and hear about on survivors quite a bit):
parents ceding control of very minute details of their children's lives to
the teacher. (Examples: parents asking teachers whether their child should
take ballet/soccer/art afterschool; parents asking teachers what color to
paint the child's room so it will suit his/her temperment; parents asking
teachers if the child should eat meat, because it might perhaps be "too
incarnating," etc. etc.)
To put it simply, Liz: most of us critics are really nice people who have
been made angry and strident by the schools we so eagerly sought out and
enrolled our children in, hoping to give those children the very best
educational experience possible. We enrolled our children in Waldorf because
Waldorf seemed (note the word "seemed") to offer an arts- based education
that celebrated individual differences and that instilled love of learning
-- instead of love of grades -- in our children.
So you can imagine our surprise, dismay and eventual anger when we found we
had enrolled our children in what some of us would described as modern day
mystery lodges -- where the approach of the teachers, the stories told and
books read, the snacks offered, indeed, even the colors of the classroom
walls *all* were aimed at developing our children's "consciousness souls"
via Anthroposophy, a methodology that a man named Rudolf Steiner pulled,
seemingly, out of thin air. (Most of us believed -- and still believe --
that a necessary part of education is the development of critical thinking
skills. No one told us when we enrolled our children in Waldorf schools
that, according to Steiner, stimulation of critical thinking and logic in a
human being less than 14 years of age will, er, harden internal organs and
harm the soul.)
Most normal people become very angry and upset when someone does a "bait and
switch" number on them ... when they pay for something only to learn it is
not what they were told it was. Imagine how much worse that feeling would be
if you had paid a system which you believe caused your child to suffer
academically, intellectually, emotionally and/or physically because of what
seemed to you lack of full disclosure on the part of a school.
You'd be mad. I guarantee it. And if you were a caring parent (which I am
sure you are, or you wouldn't be on this list at all! (g)), you would want
to tell as many other parents about what happened as you could.
Hence this list. Hope you understand now. We really are not as bad as you
think ... we are just mother and father lions protecting their cubs. (BWG)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 16:53:38 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier
- III/III
Dottie, you wrote,
)Dan, LEADERS of the whole world could not face up to
)what was going on in Germany. And what groups put
)their Leader on the front line to be killed?
Shame on them all. Shouldn't we hold Steiner to a higher standard,
being so enlightened? Given that he could read the akashic record in
both directions, could he not have alerted the world to what was
going to happen?
)He spoke
)against it to the best he could.
No, he did not!
)What did you expect
)that he would grab a gun and just start a militia?
)Please Dan, this is ridiculous.
It's a legitimate question.
)Why do you insist on holding this man who founded a
)spiritual group accountable for what the NAZIS did?
Because he helped establish the philosophy that they operated from.
)Did you expect that he would have superhuman powers
)that could have stopped these men?
He claimed to have supernatural knowledge that could have been very
useful under the circumstances.
)Or maybe he should
)have organized his spiritual students and gave them
)arms. Now that would have been interesting.
Perhaps he should have. Anthroposophy isn't a pacifist philosophy.
) ) )Dan -
)) )or laid low to stay out of trouble.
)
)Dan -
)
)) Fucking wimps. Or worse. Steiner had followers in
)) high places...helping Hitler.
))
)
)dottie -
)
)Dan you can not really expect to be taken seriously
)when you speak like this. Really. All his works speak
)towards bringing light and love into the world.
No they don't. He speaks of destruction:
The thrusting down of certain beings accompanied [the coming in of]
the Son Principle; there is no higher development without other
[development] being thrust down into the depths. The mineral, plant
and animal kingdoms were thrust down in this way. Whoever develops
himself upwards, takes upon himself a tremendous responsibility, that
is the great tragedy; the corollary of every saint is that a great
number of beings are thrust down. There would be no development if
this kind of thrusting down did not take place. A man must
continually thrust others down, as he develops himself upwards. That
is why all development which takes place out of self-interest is evil
and reprehensible; it is only justifiable if done for the development
of other beings. Only he who would raise up those who have been
thrust down is fit for development. Thus, the evolution which
manifested itself on earth and which had already been prepared on
other cosmic bodies, the evolution aiming at endowing the etheric
body with the Logos, with the Word, has been accompanied by the
thrusting down of other beings connected with the earth's
development. {brackets in original} [Steiner, 1905, TL pp. 191-192]
)Wimps! You realize that that comment is one of the
)worst judgements a man can make on another man, when
)not having been in his shoes, right? Its also one of
)the reasons many of our young men are in such trouble
)these days. Trying to live up to their fathers
)opinions on what makes a man.
He either didn't have the courage to back his convictions, or he
-accepted- the rise of the Nazis as destiny, as an historical
necessity. My opinion leans toward the latter interpretation.
)dottie -
)) )I read a book called the Spear of Destiny where it
)) )speaks of Hitler blaming Steiner for the fall of
)) his
)) )war and Steiner had already been dead for fifteen
)) )years.
)
)Dan -
)) That book is an Anthroposophical fantasy. It's
)) fiction, Dottie, not fact.
))
)dottie -
)
)Well Dan, have you read that book before you judge it?
Yes, I have.
)As far as I know it was not written by an
)Anthroposophist but I will check it out. It had only a
)few pages out of five hundred or so that spoke on
)Steiner. It speaks of the occult and how Mr. Churchill
)thought that it was best to keep such evil from church
)going people as they would not understand such
)things.
)It goes onto speak of Hitler and his top generals and
)their despicable doings and how they were very deep
)into the 'black magic' at the time.
Fiction, Dottie, occultist fiction, written by an Anthroposohist.
Occultists like to believe the Nazis were black magicians because it
makes magic look powerful. It's wishful thinking.
) ) )Dan -
)) And chose to keep their heads in the sand while
)) "destiny" played out
)) around them.
)
))
)) BTW, Dottie, did you know that the Waldorf schools
)) fired their Jewish teachers?
))
)dottie -
)
)And did you hear the reason why?
By order of the government.
)And I imagine that
)those Jewish teachers were understanding of the choice
)the school was faced with. Whether to keep the good
)work with children with disabilities, and so forth
)going, or to be shut down and have the children
)suffer. I think the Jewish teachers and the whole
)group came about to a just understanding of the times
)no matter how difficult it was on all.
I'm sure it was a heart-wrenching decision for many, but one can't
ignore the consonance between what Steiner said about Jews and the
government's actions to purge them. It would have been easy for the
faculty to say they were very sorry but it was their karma.
We have heard of two U.S. cases in which Jewish people wanting to be
Waldorf teachers were told that their culture was incompatible with
Waldorf education, so the implications of the Anthroposophical
philosophy continue to this day.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 17:52:27 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Cc: jcarroll sfchronicle.com
Subject: racial characterizations
Jon Carrol's column in today's S.F. Chronicle (May 3, 2001, p. G12)
talks about using Native American images for sports teams. His
closing paragraphs:
"The battle against Indian nicknames has been going on for quite some
time. It is not three cranks with a web site, it's a major movement
of people who believe that policy follows culture and that the sooner
'Redskins' becomes as unacceptable a nickname as as 'Jewboys' or
'Ragheads,' the closer this nation will get to dealing with the
poverty, disease and alienation among the Indian population.
"Defenders say, 'Oh, it's a term of respect; it refers to the bravery
of the Indian warriors.' Hey, it's not a term of respect if the
people referenced don't feel respected. If you want to show real
respect, change the name.
"It's not 'politically correct'; it's just good manners."
I second that motion: "it's not a term of respect if the people
referenced don't feel respected." Is Anthroposophical talk about
Africans being the childhood phase of humanity, no matter how
important they say that phase is, anything but racist to the ears of
Africans?
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 18:11:40 -0700
From: "Liz Reid&Errol Strelnikoff" (lizanderrol home.com)
Subject: Difference between Free Schools and WE
) I'm not clear what you mean here, because in some countries
) (Netherlands, for example) Waldorf schools are called "free
) schools."
) Did you go to a Waldorf school?
)
) -Dan
No.
Here is the difference between free schools (These ones are called
Sudbury Schools) and other schools, including Waldorf:
"Ok, So You're Sort of Like. . ."
After hearing a short explanation of our school's philosophy, people
naturally want to link it with something already familiar to them. The
most frequently mentioned "so-you're-sort-of-likes" are listed below.
The explanations below are not exhaustive, but illustrate some of the
differences between Sudbury-model schools and other educational
philosophies.
. . . A Montessori School?
There are some ways in which the Sudbury model is similar to the
Montessori approach. Children in both settings are allowed freedom to
make decisions about what interests them and to set their own pace. Both
models also hold the basic assumption that children are naturally
curious and don't need to be forced to learn. Montessori educators
believe that all children learn according to universal patterns and
sequences, and Montessori children choose between options presented by
the teacher. Montessori teachers offer activities based on observed
interests and needs using materials developmentally appropriate for each
age group.The Sudbury-model schools offer access to the full array of
activities life presents and allows students to determine their own
sequence of learning. This gives students the freedom to learn about
what interests them at that moment and the staff the freedom to respond
to individual needs. Interest is the only criterion for engaging in any
activity, and satisfaction is the only evaluation of success.
. . . A Waldorf School?
Like Waldorf schools, Sudbury schools care about the whole child. We
are not only interested in academic success, but in the happiness and
full human potential of each individual. Like Waldorf schools, we do not
push children to read early. We both value play as crucial to the
development of children's mental, physical, emotional, and spiritual
selves; play is regarded as the fundamental work of children. We both
respect the intuitive wisdom of children, and take their world views and
interests quite seriously. The primary difference between our two models
is that the Waldorf model, created by Rudolf Steiner, teaches to a
particular path of intellectual and spiritual growth. Waldorf education
has a curriculum and is founded in the idea of Anthroposophy, Rudolf
Steiner's theory of human evolution and spirituality (Atlantic Monthly,
8/99). Through the curriculum, Waldorf educators endeavor to guide
children, and society in general, in a particular direction.The Sudbury
approach promotes no particular path of intellectual or spiritual
growth. Rather than present a formal curriculum, we respond to each
student's individual, self-determined needs. Sudbury schools seek to
create an environment where children can recognize and pursue their own
agenda. We trust children to make their own mistakes, work through their
own problems, and come to their own solutions. The staff's role is to
help, when the student feels that it is needed, but without the approach
that adults know best.The Sudbury model simply aims to give children
access to the full complexity of life and to respect their curiosity,
confidence, and competence to participate in, and perhaps to change
society, according to their own interests, experience, knowledge and
goals.
. . . A Progressive School?
Sudbury schools believe, as progressive school reformers do, that
traditional schooling is not working for all students. Both seek to
reduce the stresses students experience when coerced into learning and
evaluated by standardized testing. Progressive public schools try to
prevent unhappiness by attempting to make learning fun and getting
children to learn without them noticing they are learning. Some
progressive schools offer an array of courses but do not require
attendance. Both educational models recognize that children learn best
when they are interested, whether or not the subject or activity at hand
is part of a formal curriculum.Sudbury-model schools extend this idea
and give students free choice of curriculum and activities, not just
every semester or every week, but every hour of the school day.
Sudbury-model schools require attendance in school, but do not have
standard offerings unless we are asked to by the student body. Classes
and other forms of instruction and interaction are available to students
on short notice, tailored to their individual needs.Learning something
new can be hard work, and children are quite capable of hard work when
they are working on something they want to do. When a student has a
serious interest, there is no stopping her. Her internal motivation
alone drives her, and she alone decides when she is done. Because
learning is a process that continually permeates our lives, it is
essential for children to learn skills that will help them schedule
their own life, wrestle with their own questions, learn how to seek the
answers, and how to master their own destiny.
. . . Home Schooling?
There is a particular philosophy of home schooling, often referred to
as "Unschooling," which shares many similarities with the Sudbury model.
John Holt was its best known proponent, and his writings have been
invaluable to us in helping to explain just how learning can happen
without teaching, and why on earth a child might choose to learn
arithmetic or some other supposedly dreadful subject. Unschoolers
believe, as we do, that children are born naturally curious about the
world and eager to succeed in life. Unschoolers believe that kids learn
best through experience and experimentation rather than by being told
how and what to think. In the words of John Holt, "Real learning is a
process of discovery, and if we want it to happen, we must create the
kinds of conditions in which discoveries are made . .. They include
time, freedom, and a lack of pressure."Many Unschoolers see the family
environment as the best place for children to grow. While the Sudbury
model also recognizes the importance of the family, we also find truth
in the African proverb, "It takes a village to raise a child." In the
environment of a Sudbury school, students are supported by and held
accountable to the entire community. They develop important social
skills in a democratic school: the ability to tolerate diversity of
opinion, to negotiate, to interact confidently with their peers and with
adults, and to develop and carry out group projects. In most home
schooling families, the parent sees him or herself as ultimately
responsible for the child's education, while at Sudbury schools, that
responsibility rests squarely with the child.
. . . Student Governments in Traditional Schools?
Students who have an interest in helping to make changes in their
schools can participate in school government, both in traditional
schools and at Cascade Valley. While student governments in traditional
schools do consist of students who represent the larger student body,
they are rarely able to make decisions that are not subject to overrule
by a higher school authority. Sudbury-model schools are participatory
democracies in which every student and staff member has the option of a
real vote in every decision made. Democratic self-governance helps
foster community identity and a sense of individual empowerment. Staff
members are involved as equals with students. Staff often argue their
policy positions with gusto, but they have no special rights to
determine rules or to overturn due process, and they are equally bound
to the rules of the school. As a free majority, students experience real
control over their lives at school, and real consequences if they fail
to meet the responsibilities such freedom requires of them. The many
opportunities for students to actually make positive contributions to
their schools is a hallmark of the Sudbury model. Sudbury schools seek
to empower children not only through self-determination, but also by
fostering an environment in which they may develop into confident,
responsible citizens.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 18:51:55 -0700
From: "Liz Reid&Errol Strelnikoff" (lizanderrol home.com)
Subject: RE: us angry critics
I wasn't responding to your particular post per se as I'm not sure if I
even read it. There were several that were just over the top. Rather
like how my kids would sound if they could write and had the vocabulary.
But they are four and six.
It's ironic that you started out in a Waldorf School with no idea of
what you were getting into and in fact surrendered many aspects of your
role as a parent to these people. Far more than you needed to it sounds
like. And then you quit because you felt like they weren't teaching
critical thinking. How long were you at the school? Four years? They
seem to have done an excellent job as your critical thinking abilities
seemed to be pretty good now!
Perhaps there is more to these Waldorf methods than I had realised.
Your child has a far better chance of thinking critically now than had
you never had a chance to experience a cult.
Liz
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 22:51:04 -0400
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Waldorf teacher training
In a post expressing some of her concerns about Waldorf education, Liz says:
((Another aspect I wonder about is the training of
teachers. I remember reading somewhere that
Steiner wrote that Waldorf teachers must be what
some people would call 'enlightened' people. I
forget the exact terms he used. However,I can't
understand how this can be considered the same as
spending two years at a teacher's college.))
Lisa here: Liz, I wondered the same thing once I began to really examine the
training (or the lack thereof) of the various teachers at our former WS.
It will take me some time to find the Steiner quote you are referring to
(Sharon? Dan? Diana? Does it ring a bell?) but from all the reading I have
done on Anthroposophy/Steiner/Waldorf, I would have to deduce that what
Steiner meant by "enlightened" would mean "quite far along the road of
Anthroposophy."
Putting aside for now the question of whether or not being an initiated
Anthroposopher actually *is* a necessary attribute of a good Waldorf
teacher, let me address what I know about the training of Waldorf teachers
and staff.
First of all, I think you over-estimate the case both when you say "two
years" and "a teachers' college." Certainly, there are Waldorf teachers in
classrooms right now and have completed only a 13-week "program" or "mini
intensive" at a place such as Rudolf Steiner College in Fair Oaks, Ca. Other
teachers are no doubt in classrooms prior to completing courses offered in
the summertime ... they teach during the school year before they have their
full Waldorf "certificate" (or whatever it is called!) and attend courses
and programs during summers.
But the *real* relevant question, I think, is whether or not Steiner
College (or the other places that offer Waldorf teacher training) are, in
fact, *real" teacher training colleges. I would argue (as would many
critics), that they are NOT!
Example: check out the course/reading list for students at RS College
that is posted on the PLANS site. (It is a few years old, but has not
changed much. Last year, I sent away for the course list for "foundation
year," as well as the book list. It is almost identical.)
You will quickly see that candidates for Waldorf teacher-hood are fed
Anthropos. and Steiner 24/7. They read books by or about Steiner on a
variety of subjects, but it all comes back to Steiner. In other words, if
the teacher training candidates look at "human development," they are
studying Steiner's view of human development ... not the views of modern
science, psychology, or even other philosophers or educators! Education
courses are all STEINER.
In my opinion, this kind of "training" is darned poor preparation for
facing a class of 30+ children and taking them through eight years of
education! In fact, I have "heard" Waldorf teachers admit online that their
course work was not sufficient preparation for dealing in the real world of
the classroom with real children. Yes, they learn about how to categorize
children by temperments and where cholerics should sit (in the back, so
their "fire" won't "burn" the teacher ...), but how to deal on a day to day
basis with living, breathing children with individual selves and brains and
imaginations? Nada.
For a long time at our former school, I was baffled at why the school --
when they would need a new teacher -- would not just recruit a proven,
effective teacher who had spent some years in a solid non-WS and then train
that person in what I would call the "Waldorf approach." Instead, the school
seemed intent on hiring people who came from a variety of other backgrounds
totally unrelated to education -- people who had spent years in a meditation
community, someone from a corporation, etc. (I am making those up, but you
get the idea) -- but who had an interest in anthroposophy. (There is your
"enlightened" person, I guess.)
Now I know that being experienced and effective as a teacher means a
very different thing in a WS and out of one. To a Waldorf school, the very
most important quality a teacher can have is to be somewhere on the road to
anthroposophy, because Waldorf education is *about* anthroposophy.
Of course, I did not know that when we enrolled our child. I thought
that Waldorf was an "approach" to teaching. I did not know then that Waldorf
schools are religious, spiritual science schools. What an unhappy surprise
for us ....
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 22:27:06 -0500
From: "Rainbow Bookstore Cooperative" (rbc supranet.com)
Subject: RE: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
Alice Klinge wrote:
) Were some of Steiner's racial comments used by the Third Reich in their
) propaganda?
No, not as far as I know. The Nazis generally viewed anthroposophy as a
competitor, even when - or especially when - their ideas converged. There
was a significant group of Nazis who were directly influenced by Steiner,
but there was another group that detested Steiner's followers. Most Nazis
probably paid little attention to anthroposophy.
) Where would I find out more about the Jewish anthroposophists at the
) time of the rise to power of the national socialists ?
I'm afraid I don't know any good sources in English. It's even hard to find
good ones in German; the subject is a touchy one for contemporary anthros so
they don't talk about it much. There are a couple of memoirs out there from
Jewish anthros who fled Germany during the 30s. There is a very informative
website with lots of documentation related to this topic, sponsored by the
Swiss organization "Children of the Holocaust", at www.akdh.ch
) I am sure that you have mentioned this on the list before, but how did
) the myth of being persecuted by the nazis begin in anthroposophist
) rhetoric?
I think it was probably an ex post facto justification created after 1941,
when the anti-anthro faction of the Nazis gained the upper hand. There was
real persecution of anthroposophists after that date, and some before as
well. What latter-day anthros typically deny is the enthusiasm with which
many of them joined in building a Nazi society, until they realized they
didn't have a secure place within it. I'll go into more detail in a
subsequent post.
Peter S.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 22:38:45 -0500
From: "Rainbow Bookstore Cooperative" (rbc supranet.com)
Subject: anthros and Nazis and dragons, oh my
hello critics,
at last, a real debate. I think the recent thread on anthroposophists under
the Nazis has been fascinating. I'm sorry that the tone has been too
acrimonious for some, but I hope the ideas won't get lost amid all the
fireworks. I think it's worthwhile to distinguish two different aspects of
this question: 1) what was the relationship between the Nazis and the
anthroposophist movement? and 2) what sorts of political and ethical
judgements can we make about this relationship from today's vantage point?
I'd like to first address issue 1 by offering an alternative interpretation
that contrasts with the one put forward by Sune and by Uwe Werner, and then
address issue 2 by responding to some of the lessons other list members have
drawn.
Sune wrote:
) In 1919 Steiner founded the Threefold Social Order
) (http://www.threefolding.freeuk.com/) with help from
) coactivists from the middle classes and workers' movement (v.a. USPD).
) He was publicly attacked by Adolf Hitler in the Volkischer Beobachter
) (Folk Observer) newspaper (March 1921), who denounced the Threefold
) Social movement as a Jewish strategy to undermine the normal world
) outlook of the people.
As I indicated in my recent post "Hitler disses Steiner", I think that is a
misunderstanding of Hitler's passing reference to Steiner. In any case,
being publicly attacked by Hitler is hardly a noteworthy distinction. Nazi
leaders routinely accused one another of promoting "Jewish" ideas (other
Nazis even levelled this charge against Hitler), in the same way that
McCarthy hurled the epithet "Communist" at staunch conservative
anti-communists. It is important to keep in mind that anthroposophy and
National Socialism were rival doctrines competing for the attention of the
same audience. (On a side note, the above description of the origins of
"social threefolding" is inaccurate; its most enthusiastic backers were
industrialists and aristocrats such as Emil Molt and Max von Baden.)
) In 1920 and again in 1923, Steiner warned in lectures about the
) black-magical misuse of the Swastika. (1920 was the year Hitler chose
) the Swastika as the Nazi party emblem.)
Here is the quote from 1920: "This symbol [the swastika] which the Indian or
old Egyptian once looked to when he spoke of his sacred Brahman, this symbol
is now to be seen on the [Russian] ten thousand ruble note! Those who are
making grand politics there know how to influence the human soul. They know
what the triumphal procession of the swastika means - this swastika that a
large number of people in Europe are already wearing - but they do not want
to listen to that which strives to understand, out of the most important
symptoms, the secrets of today's historical development." (GA 199, p. 161;
speech 27.08.1920)
Here is the quote from 1923: "On some mountain paths . . . one finds
these symbols, swastikas, which are causing so much mischief in Germany
these days. This swastika is worn by people who no longer have any idea that
it was once a symbol which indicated to travelers: here are people who
understand these things, who see not only with the physical eye but with the
spiritual eye as well." (GA 350 p. 276; speech 10.09.1923)
The first quote is a warning against Bolshevism, not Nazism. The second
quote might be an oblique reference to the Nazis (though that is far from
clear; the swastika was a very widespread symbol within the German
'alternative' scene as well as among far right groups), but it can scarcely
count as a political criticism. Steiner seems to have been upset by
insufficiently reverent uses of the symbol.
) In 1922 Steiner was warned by the Munich Anthroposophist, Hans
) Buchenbacher that he was listed 8th or 9th amongst those prominent
) Germans targeted for assassination. Buchenbacher and his friends quickly
) organized a sort of private bodyguard whilst the venue agency provided
) additional heavyweights, as was usual around the time of the Munich hall
) assassinations. On the 15th May 1922 Steiner had just given a lecture in
) the Four Seasons Hotel in Munich when radical Right militants mobbed
) Steiner.
As far as I am aware, the only source that supports this version of events
is Gerhard Wehr's biography of Steiner. Other anthroposophist accounts of
the incident give a much less dramatic view: Guenther Wachsmuth attributes
the disrupted lecture to "a few hotheads", not a mob (Wachsmuth, Rudolf
Steiners Erdenleben und Wirken, Dornach 1964, p. 470), and Uwe Werner says
they were trying to "provoke a melee", not assassinate Steiner. (Werner,
Anthroposophen in der Zeit des Nationalsozialismus, Munich 1999, p. 8). But
the more important point is that this incident had nothing to do with the
Nazis. As Werner shows, Steiner's would-be attackers were followers of
General Ludendorff, one of Hitler's competitors for leadership of the Munich
far right.
) The Dragon had just started showing his face when Steiner died.
National Socialism wasn't a dragon, an otherworldly beast that flew in from
the land of make-believe. It was a retrograde political movement that gained
state power in a context of utter moral confusion. To a small extent,
anthroposophy helped create that context. To a large extent, it actively
cooperated with Nazism once the latter was in power.
Sune also posted a fine summation of the work of Uwe Werner, whose book
is one of the two most detailed examinations of anthroposophy during the
Third Reich from an anthroposophist perspective (the other is by Arfst
Wagner; Wagner's criticisms of Werner's book should be required reading for
anthroposophists). Dottie thinks that Werner's work "contradicts everything
PLANS and Mr. Peter S. have written regarding Dr. Steiner and the Nazis." In
fact, Werner's research confirms much of what I have written; both of my
articles on the PLANS site draw on his book. It is true, however, that
Werner's conclusions are contrary to my own. His book is an extended
apologia for anthroposophist collaborators with the Nazi regime. For a
fuller discussion of the issues involved here, I recommend that list members
see my article with Peter Zegers, "Anthroposophy and Its Defenders", on the
PLANS site. But for now, a few comments in response to Werner:
) *Anthroposophists belonged to the many groups of people who were
) persecuted under the Nazi regime.
That is true from 1941 onward, after anthroposophy's chief protector, Rudolf
Hess, flew to Scotland. From then until the end of the war, the
anti-anthroposophist faction of the Nazis largely had a free hand, with
several significant exceptions. But during most of the Third Reich, that is
from 1933 to 1941, the situation was much more complicated, and
anthroposophists were frequently on extremely friendly terms with Nazis,
including much of the leadership.
) During the years leading up to the 1935 prohibition of the German
) Anthroposophical Society and the closing of Waldorf Schools in the years
) thereafter, the society Executive Council was faced with the question of
) whether to submit to pressure to dissolve the Society of their own
) accord, or whether to attempt to preserve the Society and to continue
) working as long as and as effectively as possible. Choosing the second
) of these two paths made it necessary for them to make compromises in
) order to be tolerated by those in power. It is for this reason that,
) despite the fact that the main Executive Council had unanimously
) renounced the National Socialist cause at an internal meeting at Easter
) 1933, there was never a public rejection of National Socialism on the
) part of the General Anthroposophical Society.
This is the line Werner follows throughout his book. In fact, the
anthroposophist leadership publicly expressed its support for the Nazi
regime within a few months of Hitler's accession to power. That isn't
terribly surprising, since many leading anthroposophists had long been open
admirers of Mussolini's fascist regime in Italy. In the course of his book,
Werner lists numerous named individuals who were both active
anthroposophists and active members of the Nazi party. There was indeed a
group within the anthro leadership that saw its role as making inescapable
"compromises" with the government, but there were also very many
anthroposophists whose collusion with the Nazis was enthusiastic and
uncoerced.
) Like the General Anthroposophical Society, institutions based on
) anthroposophy (such as Waldorf Schools, schools for the handicapped,
) hospitals, schools of Eurythmy, etc.), for the most part adopted a
) strategy of peaceful and passive resistance. Waldorf schools experienced
) serious financial strains and were forced to let go of Jewish teachers,
"Forced" is inaccurate, as Werner's own documents show, and the only
"resistance" he can come up with are cases of anthroposophists trying to
salvage their own projects. The firing of Jewish teachers was controversial
within anthro ranks; Dottie's speculation that "those Jewish teachers were
understanding of the choice the school was faced with" is very wide of the
mark. The memoirs of Jewish anthroposophists who left Germany at this time
are quite explicit in describing the bitterness they felt toward their
gentile anthro colleagues.
) Though the decision had been reached by July 1935, it was not until
) November 1, 1935 that, through the efforts of Nazi leaders Heinrich
) Himmler and Reinhard Heydrich, the Anthroposophical Society was
) prohibited in Germany.
Heydrich was no fan of Steiner. Himmler's attitude was mixed; he saw
anthroposophy as organizational competition and supervised the efforts to
have it expunged from public life, but at the same time he was strongly
drawn to biodynamics and sponsored several initiatives along these lines,
including a biodynamic plantation at Dachau overseen by the anthroposophist
and SS officer Franz Lippert.
) The accusations had been carefully researched. Himmler ordered numerous
) investigative reports that serve to document the stand of the Nazis
) toward anthroposophy. Fifteen in-depth reports, as well as countless
) individual accounts, all come to the same conclusion: that anthroposophy
) is irreconcilable with the aims and the ideologies of National
) Socialism.
Werner reproduces several of these documents, and they do not yield any such
unanimous conclusion. A number of the official Nazi reports emphasize the
commonalities between anthroposophy and National Socialism.
) "To briefly summarize my judgement," wrote Jakob Wilhelm Hauer,
) Professor of Religion at the University of Tuebingen and member of the
) Secret Service of the S.S.,
)
) "every undertaking and activity of anthroposophy necessarily arises out
) of the Anthroposophical world view. The anthroposophical world view is
) in the most important points directly opposed to National Socialism.
) Therefore, schools which are built out of the anthroposophical world
) view and led by anthroposophists mean danger to true German
) education."(3)
Hauer was a crackpot who had been crusading against anthroposophy and other
alternative spiritual groups since the 1920's. Nobody in the Nazi hierarchy
took his rantings seriously. While he was typing away at his screeds, the
Nazi leadership was offering state sponsorship to biodynamic farms and
Waldorf schools (detailed at length in Werner's book).
) Perhaps the most persuasive adherent of National Socialism to formulate
) the incompatibility of anthroposophy and National Socialism was Alfred
) Bauemler, a distinguished philosopher and professor of education in
) Berlin. As part of his work within the Rosenburg Office "for the control
) of the intellectual life of the National Socalist Party", he was
) commissioned to conduct an in-depth investigation of the work of Rudolf
) Steiner. Unlike hasty and unstudied police reports, Bauemler's "Report
) on the Waldorf Schools" and "Report on Rudolf Steiner and Philosophy"
) are noteworthy attempts to understand the thoughts underlying
) anthroposophy: Baeumler's hope was to find means to adopt aspects of
) Waldorf pedagogy into National Socialist education. He concluded,
) however, that the principles underlying anthroposophy contradict the
) aims of the National Socialistic State.
Unlike Hauer, Baeumler was an influential Nazi, and he did indeed spend
quite a bit of time trying to understand anthroposophy. Werner is correct
that his eventual recommendation was largely negative, but it makes
remarkable reading nevertheless. Baeumler found several important aspects of
anthroposophy that he considered worthy of praise (they are recounted in
Werner's book), and he offered crucial protection to a number of
anthroposophist undertakings. His friendliness toward anthroposophists was
an issue in his post-war trial. The article by Achim Leschinsky, where
Baeumler's memo was first published, is an excellent study of Waldorf
schools under the Nazis. Leschinsky's conclusions are completely opposite
Werner's; he sees the Waldorf movement as having cultivated a "deliberate
closeness" to Nazism.
) In March 1936, Waldorf Schools were prohibited from taking on new
) students; by summer of 1941, all Waldorf Schools in Germany had been
) forced to close their doors. On June 1941, shortly before the attack on
) Russia, the Gestapo staged an action against the "inside opponents" of
) the Nazis. The Christian Community was prohibited from continued
) activity, prominent Anthroposophists and members of the Christian
) Community were arrested, interrogated and imprisoned or sent to
) concentration camps.
Most of them were released shortly thereafter. Remarkably, Werner doesn't
mention here the reason for the timing of this 1941 turnaround in official
Nazi attitudes toward anthroposophy, although the topic takes up about a
third of his book: the reason was Hess's flight to Scotland. Hess's parents
reportedly belonged to the Christian Community, and Hess himself was a
follower of Steiner. With his sudden departure, the anti-anthro faction
around Heydrich saw its chance and took it. That didn't stop Weleda from
sending supplies for torture to concentration camps, and it didn't interrupt
the SS experiments with biodynamics. Werner is also curiously silent here on
the pro-anthroposophist activities of other leading Nazis. Walther Darre,
prominent "racial theorist" and Nazi Minister of Agriculture, continued to
provide state support for biodynamics even after the 1941 action. And Otto
Ohlendorf, the SS war criminal who oversaw one of the early stages of the
holocaust, retained his close contacts with anthroposophists throughout the
war; after he was executed in 1951 for crimes against humanity, Ohlendorf
was buried by a pastor of the Christian Community in an anthroposophist
ceremony.
Anyone who reads German and wants to learn more about this topic should
definitely check out Werner's book. Alongside Werner, you should also
consult the critiques of the book that have been published in the
anthroposophist press, including several incisive ones by Arfst Wagner, as
well as a very good review by Jens Heisterkamp in Info3. Probably the most
thorough review of the book is by the non-anthroposophist historian Helmut
Zander, published in Switzerland's leading newspaper. Much of this material
is availble on the website of the "Children of the Holocaust" that I
mentioned in my last post (www.akdh.ch). I'll try to tackle the problems of
how to evaluate this history in my next post.
Peter Staudenmaier
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 21:02:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf teacher training
Lisa -
To a
) Waldorf school, the very
) most important quality a teacher can have is to be
) somewhere on the road to
) anthroposophy, because Waldorf education is *about*
) anthroposophy.
dottie -
Dr. Steiner said that the most important quality a
teacher must have is that she/he LOVE their students.
Steiner intended that the foundation of the Waldorf
schools be Anthroposophy. Although we have heard from
David, that not all Waldorf schools integrate
Anthroposophy.
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 21:11:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
Peter S.
There
) was a significant group of Nazis who were directly
) influenced by Steiner,
dottie -
And what is it that you would say Mr. Peter, Dr.
Steiner personally influenced them to do?
And could you please state the names of the people
you say Dr. Steiner influenced if you mean to say he
collaborated and actually propelled the Nazi agenda
forward. And also please state the reference outside
of your own personal writings that support that.
These are very serious accusations you put forth while
ignoring to all accounts what Sune has posted to the
contrary. And his quotes are direct references to Dr.
Steiner and also Antrhoposophists during the war and
also its beginnings.
What are your interpretations of Sune Nordwalls post
regarding this issue.
Thank you,
dottie zold
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4-May-2001 04:15:08 GMT
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Waldorf teacher training
dottie zold wrote:
) Lisa -
) To a
) ) Waldorf school, the very
) ) most important quality a teacher can have is to be
) ) somewhere on the road to
) ) anthroposophy, because Waldorf education is *about*
) ) anthroposophy.
)
) dottie -
)
) Dr. Steiner said that the most important quality a
) teacher must have is that she/he LOVE their students.
)
) Steiner intended that the foundation of the Waldorf
) schools be Anthroposophy. Although we have heard from
) David, that not all Waldorf schools integrate
) Anthroposophy.
)
) dottie
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
) __________________________________________________
) Do You Yahoo!?
) Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
) http://auctions.yahoo.com/
dottie
'anything you do is everything you do'
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4-May-2001 04:15:37 GMT
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III
) Peter S.
) There
) ) was a significant group of Nazis who were directly
) ) influenced by Steiner,
)
) dottie -
)
) And what is it that you would say Mr. Peter, Dr.
) Steiner personally influenced them to do?
)
) And could you please state the names of the people
) you say Dr. Steiner influenced if you mean to say he
) collaborated and actually propelled the Nazi agenda
) forward. And also please state the reference outside
) of your own personal writings that support that.
)
) These are very serious accusations you put forth while
) ignoring to all accounts what Sune has posted to the
) contrary. And his quotes are direct references to Dr.
) Steiner and also Antrhoposophists during the war and
) also its beginnings.
)
) What are your interpretations of Sune Nordwalls post
) regarding this issue.
)
) Thank you,
)
) dottie zold
)
) __________________________________________________
) Do You Yahoo!?
) Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
) http://auctions.yahoo.com/
dottie
'anything you do is everything you do'
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 00:07:23 -0500
From: "Rainbow Bookstore Cooperative" (rbc supranet.com)
Subject: anthros, Nazis, and us
On the Nazi period, Dottie wrote:
) Like the rest of the world until it was already too
) late. A small group of Anthroposophists laid low. The
) man they studied with was already a target for death
) of the forming Nazi generation, and they chose to turn
) to prayer, meditation and impacting their small
) communities in ways that they could at the time.
I think this is a common view among non-German fans of anthroposophy. This
view misunderstands early anthroposophy as having been opposed in principle
to National Socialism's vision of the national regeneration of German
society. It wasn't; in fact Steiner and his followers preached an
alternative version of the same message, minus the storm troopers. During
his lifetime Steiner's epigones referred to him reverently as "Germany's
savior". Not only did anthroposophists do nothing to resist the rise of the
Nazi movement - unlike many ordinary German people from all walks of life
and across the political spectrum - they actively contributed to those
cultural tendencies that made the Nazis' rise possible. That is not to say
that all anthroposophists were closet Nazis; instead I think it makes sense
to see the early anthro movement along the same lines as the so-called
"Conservative Revolution": a non-Nazi variant of German nationalism and
anti-modernism that ended up vacillating between collaboration and
resignation after 1933.
) I read a book called the Spear of Destiny where it
) speaks of Hitler blaming Steiner for the fall of his
) war and Steiner had already been dead for fifteen
) years. Hitler, according to this book by Ravencroft,
) felt that Steiner had affected his generals from the
) spiritual plane. There is also a mention of one
) general in particular who was having a problem with
) the way Hitler was extinguishing people earlier on and
) he was demoted for cowardice.
Ravenscroft's book is completely fraudulent, and as far as I know there is
only a tiny fringe of anthroposophists that takes it seriously. This sort of
material is so obviously inane that even harsh critics like me don't make
use of it to embarrass anthros. But its appearance in this discussion
indicates, I think, how hard it is for all of us, of whatever generation and
whatever country of origin, to come to terms with what Nazism meant. The
seemingly inexplicable horror of that period makes it very difficult to look
at issues of historical responsibility in any sustained way. I suspect that
some of the emotional heat generated by the topic of anthros and Nazis stems
from this difficult challenge. When the critics point out anthroposophy's
less than dignified record during the Third Reich, it can seem like we're
unfairly singling out one small group from within the broad fabric of German
society. But I think what we're really doing is calling attention to
anthroposophy's own unwillingness to confront a painful history, one which
continues to have repercussions today within anthroposophy and its
institutions.
I like the way Steve put it:
) To be fair, though, it was a lot easier for Americans to fight the Nazis
) than for Germans. It was hard for Germans to do much except lay low once
) the Nazis came to power (although I'm sure they could have done plenty to
) try to prevent the Nazis from coming to power in the first place).
It's the contribution of anthroposophists before 1933, and their decidedly
positive intial stance after 1933, that needs to be looked at critically. It
isn't reasonable to expect every German citizen to join underground units
and risk their lives trying to topple a dictatorship. But that wasn't really
what things were like in the 1930's; the Nazi regime enjoyed tremendous
popular support, not least because of a widespread German perception that
their culture was surrounded by hostile forces that needed to be defeated so
Germany could undergo a spiritual renewal. Anthroposophy partook of this
attitude. Thus it doesn't necessarily make sense to draw the parallel Liz
did:
) As for the Nazi question, so many people collaborated with Hitler
) inside and outside Germany. People in the US and in England fired
) their Jewish employees.
It is certainly true that many Germans collaborated in various ways (and
that many non-Germans were little better in terms of antisemitism), but the
kind of ideological overlap that some anthroposophists and some Nazis had
was relatively rare. Since anthroposophy is an ideologically driven
movement, I think that aspect is absolutely crucial. Add to that the many
instances of active, practical cooperation between anthros and high-up Nazis
and you begin to see what it is that concerns many of us. National Socialism
wasn't imported from outer space; it grew up in a country of highly educated
people, many of whom had good intentions but persistently misunderstood and
mystified their own situation. The research that people like Jutta Ditfurth,
Peter Bierl, and Oliver Geden have done into the pro-fascist tendencies
within Steinerite circles shouldn't be used as a cudgel with which to beat
anthroposophists indiscriminately (and I don't think critics of anthro do
this for the most part); it ought to be an opportunity for reflecting on the
compromised past of a movement that prides itself on its spiritual
advancement and compassionate practices.
So when Dottie asks:
) Why do you insist on holding this man who founded a
) spiritual group accountable for what the NAZIS did?
she is both missing the point and avoiding the question. We should hold
Steiner and his followers accountable for what they did, especially when
what they did coincided neatly with what the Nazis did. As long as
anthroposophists refuse to face this task, the theme of Nazis and anthros
will not go away.
Peter Staudenmaier
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 23:13:42 -0700
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: RE: Waldorf teacher training
)
)) dottie -
))
)) Dr. Steiner said that the most important quality a
)) teacher must have is that she/he LOVE their students.
))
)) Steiner intended that the foundation of the Waldorf
)) schools be Anthroposophy. Although we have heard from
)) David, that not all Waldorf schools integrate
)) Anthroposophy.
Debra:
What school don't incorporate Anthroposophy? This could be a whole new
thread...
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 23:32:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
Dan -
) Shame on them all. Shouldn't we hold Steiner to a
) higher standard,
) being so enlightened? Given that he could read the
) akashic record in
) both directions, could he not have alerted the world
) to what was
) going to happen?
)
dottie -
Dan, first of all you do not believe he was an
enlightened person. How can you argue from that
standpoint? You can not have it both ways.
dottie
) )He spoke
) )against it to the best he could.
)
Dan -
) No, he did not!
)
dottie -
Well obviously we have two different opinions of this.
dottie -
) )Why do you insist on holding this man who founded a
) )spiritual group accountable for what the NAZIS did?
Dan -
) Because he helped establish the philosophy that they
) operated from.
)
dottie -
Well here we go again Dan. PLANS claims Steiner did
nothing on his own. He stole all of his work from
other peoples and philosophers. So here you want to
argue from a standpoint that PLANS has already
declared null and void. Except of course where it
serves to bring a point home they would like to make.
It doesn't work that way Dan. Either he was
enlightened or he was not. Either he created his own
work or he did not. What will you have?
Dan-
) He claimed to have supernatural knowledge that could
) have been very
) useful under the circumstances.
)
dottie -
Supernatural power and supernatural knowledge are two
different things. And all masters or enlightened
teachers obey a universal law in order to be able to
attain this knowledge and that is that they will not
use any of the knowledge gained from the higher worlds
to alter anything on the physical plane. Now, I do
believe you think such talk about the hiearchies and
such is a bunch of baloney so I do not expect that you
would think this kind of law would be a good one. And
that is not a judgement on whether you believe or you
do not.
dottie
) )Or maybe he should
) )have organized his spiritual students and gave them
) )arms. Now that would have been interesting.
)
Dan -
) Perhaps he should have. Anthroposophy isn't a
) pacifist philosophy.
)
dottie -
Well i guess it would depend on how you apply the word
pacifist to a spiritual group. I am not an
Anthroposophist so I can not speak from direct
understanding however I am an avid reader of Dr.
Steiner and to a certain extent in understanding I do
believe pacifism does apply. And many people including
myself will not pick up a gun and kill another person.
Not ever. No matter what the circumstance. Not even a
bug will I intentionally kill which I do not put on
the same level as a human being. It is that I
personally choose to not kill anything as part of my
philosophy of life.
dottie -
) )
) )Dan you can not really expect to be taken seriously
) )when you speak like this. Really. All his works
) speak
) )towards bringing light and love into the world.
)
Dan -
) No they don't. He speaks of destruction:
dottie -
Dan, that is ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE. An your
understanding of the quote you applied is completely
different than mine. Completely. And I am not calling
you a liar. I am stating for all who will read this
that we have two completely different understandings
of what you quoted to show Steiner being destructive.
)
Dan -
)
) He either didn't have the courage to back his
) convictions, or he
) -accepted- the rise of the Nazis as destiny, as an
) historical
) necessity.
dottie -
Well I do agree that he realized the Nazis were going
to be conquering people. However I am not sure he knew
to what extent and how ugly it would get. I do not
think it was in his power to make even a small dent in
Hitlers regime, although he did what he could in his
own way.
And many spiritual people believe that no matter how
ugly things get there is a reason. Once again you may
think that is a bunch of malarky.
dottie -
) )Well Dan, have you read that book before you judge
) it?
)
Dan -
) Yes, I have.
)
Fiction, Dottie, occultist fiction, written by an
) Anthroposohist.
) Occultists like to believe the Nazis were black
) magicians because it
) makes magic look powerful. It's wishful thinking.
)
dottie -
So you do not believe that such things as were written
in the Spear Of Destiny are a possibility? And are you
100% sure that the book was written by an
Anthroposophist? I am checking on it too.
Dan -
) I'm sure it was a heart-wrenching decision for many,
) but one can't
) ignore the consonance between what Steiner said
) about Jews and the
) government's actions to purge them.
dottie -
Which was what? What are you saying that Dr. Steiner
said about the actions of the Jews being purged? And
when you say purged do you mean exterminated. Because
if you are these are very serious accusations Dan, if
this is what you mean and are not to be taken lightly.
So how do you mean them?
Dan -
) We have heard of two U.S. cases in which Jewish
) people wanting to be
) Waldorf teachers were told that their culture was
) incompatible
dottie -
Where are these cases told?
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 268
-- Topica Digest --
Re: anthros, Nazis, and us
By dottie_z yahoo.com
RE: Waldorf teacher training
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: rough tone of list!
By mypostbox.formail virgin.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 00:02:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: anthros, Nazis, and us
dottie -
) ) I read a book called the Spear of Destiny where it
) ) speaks of Hitler blaming Steiner for the fall of
) his
) ) war and Steiner had already been dead for fifteen
) ) years. Hitler, according to this book by
) Ravencroft,
) ) felt that Steiner had affected his generals from
) the
) ) spiritual plane.
Peter S.
)
) Ravenscroft's book is completely fraudulent, and as
) far as I know there is
) only a tiny fringe of anthroposophists that takes it
) seriously. This sort of
) material is so obviously inane that even harsh
) critics like me don't make
) use of it to embarrass anthros.
dottie -
I disagree with you about it being inane. Absolutely.
And I would disagree with any person who has studied
the metaphysical world and came to the same conclusion
as you have. However I am aware that you do not study
the metaphysical world so to have a debate with you
regarding this book would be impossible.
Peter S.
I suspect that
) some of the emotional heat generated by the topic of
) anthros and Nazis stems
) from this difficult challenge. When the critics
) point out anthroposophy's
) less than dignified record during the Third Reich,
) it can seem like we're
) unfairly singling out one small group from within
) the broad fabric of German
) society.
dottie -
No see Peter, it is you who keeps this neo nazi
ideology going in comparison to Anthroposophy. And it
does no service to the real complaints of the parents
about Waldorf.
Why don't you start your own page and try to make it
happen there instead of bringing whatever you are
trying to bring to town here.
Peter S.
But I think what we're really doing is
) calling attention to
) anthroposophy's own unwillingness to confront a
) painful history, one which
) continues to have repercussions today within
) anthroposophy and its
) institutions.
dottie -
You are way out of line Peter. Way out of line. I just
keep wondering why. Why are you on this binge of sorts
to try and prove Anthroposophists and Dr. Steiner were
collaborators. Why? For the Truth? I don't think so. I
am not sure you would see it standing before you, even
if it announced itself. You are sold hook line and
sinker that Steiner was a collaborator. And you are
trying to sell others this ridiculous idea. I am just
shocked that people on this list by this.
The only way you confront other information that
disagrees with what you offer is to say the person
sadly does not get it, and of course it is because
they are an anthroposophist. Your arguments are no
longer valid to that extent, it is becoming a broken
record of sorts. "Oh poor Sune, I am beginning to
think I know more of Anthroposophy than he"...right,
give me a break.
Peter S
) It's the contribution of anthroposophists before
) 1933, and their decidedly
) positive intial stance after 1933, that needs to be
) looked at critically.
dottie -
Contribution to what Peter? What is your real problem
with Anthroposophy? I mean your real problem other
than this you keep bringing up? What is it that others
can not see through? What? And yes thats personal but
I just keep thinking how you have some kind of hidden
agenda behind all of this. And I don't believe it is
because you want to tell the truth. No theres more to
it than that.
Peter S.
the Nazi regime
) enjoyed tremendous
) popular support, not least because of a widespread
) German perception that
) their culture was surrounded by hostile forces that
) needed to be defeated so
) Germany could undergo a spiritual renewal.
) Anthroposophy partook of this
) attitude.
dottie -
Oh they took part in the fact that Hitler had to
anihilate millions of people to bring about a
spiritual renewal? Do you know how insane that sounds.
And you speak of the Spear Of Destiny as being
embarrassing. Whew!!!
Peter -
) Add to that the many
) instances of active, practical cooperation between
) anthros and high-up Nazis
) and you begin to see what it is that concerns many
) of us.
dottie -
OH MY GOD PETER. YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME. THIS
IS SO OUTRAGIOUS...are you not even in the least
embarrassed? This is amazing. I mean who do you think
you are fooling?
Peter S.
)So when Dottie asks:
)
) ) Why do you insist on holding this man who founded
) a
) ) spiritual group accountable for what the NAZIS
) did?
)
) she is both missing the point and avoiding the
) question. We should hold
) Steiner and his followers accountable for what they
) did, especially when
) what they did coincided neatly with what the Nazis
) did.
Peter S.
As long as
) anthroposophists refuse to face this task, the theme
) of Nazis and anthros
) will not go away.
)
dottie -
I am so glad I found this site. I am so glad. To know
really know to what extent people will say things to
justify getting their way. And I do not mean PLANS or
Mr. Dugan. I speak specifically about you. You are
really reminding me of my two elderly gentlemen
friends who claim the Holocaust never happened. And
they even have pictures to prove it by Historians.
Amazing isn't it, just amazing. And they have books
and books. Just amazing. And yes, Dottie sadly does
not get it and is avoiding the point'...the record
groove is getting stuck.
it has not been a pleasure,
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 00:03:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Waldorf teacher training
) Debra:
)
) What school don't incorporate Anthroposophy? This
) could be a whole new
) thread...
)
)
dottie -
I will have to check back in the Archives to see where
that was said. I also was surprised.
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 09:09:36 +0100
From: "mypostbox.formail" (mypostbox.formail virgin.net)
Subject: Re: rough tone of list!
liz
) I am just disapointed that this list has such a
) vicious tone. Even people who feel critical of WE
) will have to think that it is no wonder that some
) of the people writing on this list were given a
) hard time at Waldorf schools, as who would want
) them in any school.
hello liz and welcome,
I am from the UK and have been on this list for a while, I had the same
reaction as you when I started, but in a way it was familiar because at the
michael hall waldorf school (oldest in the uk) it was very similar, if
anyone had any questions instead of just accepting , they were treated quite
viciously, people who questioned very quickly became ostracised and
personaly attacked over their 'mothering' skills, it was very intimidating,
any child who didnt fit the waldorf 'pattern' was attacked as well. You
could feel like a total monster just for letting your child kick a ball!
Bea
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 269
-- Topica Digest --
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier
- III/III
By Gary GoodWinter.com
Re: Difference between Free Schools and WE
By soma mwt.net
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier
- III/III
By snell netshel.net
Re: anthros, Nazis, and us
By steve premofine.com
Re: Waldorf teacher training
By snell netshel.net
RE: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
By winters_diana hotmail.com
RE: WE and "cross-cultural studies"/ was Re: The Ethers and biology concepts in
By winters_diana hotmail.com
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: anthros, Nazis, and us
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: Waldorf teacher training
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: anthros, Nazis, and us
By winters_diana hotmail.com
RE: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
By rbc supranet.com
RE: anthros, Nazis, and us
By rbc supranet.com
RE: anthros, Nazis, and us
By rbc supranet.com
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier
- III/III
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Difference between Free Schools and WE
By dan dandugan.com
RE: anthros, Nazis, and us
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: Waldorf teacher training
By canndw netzero.net
Re: Question regarding teeth
By canndw netzero.net
RE: Difference between Free Schools and WE
By lizanderrol home.com
RE: Difference between Free Schools and WE
By lizanderrol home.com
RE: anthros, Nazis, and us
By dan dandugan.com
Re: anthros, Nazis, and us
By earlyfire earthlink.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 09:55:06 -0400
From: Gary Bonhiver (gary goodwinter.com)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier
- III/III
on 5/3/01 7:53 PM, Dan Dugan at dan dandugan.com wrote:
)) dottie -
)) Wimps! You realize that that comment is one of the
)) worst judgements a man can make on another man, when
)) not having been in his shoes, right? Its also one of
)) the reasons many of our young men are in such trouble
)) these days. Trying to live up to their fathers
)) opinions on what makes a man.
)
) He either didn't have the courage to back his convictions, or he
) -accepted- the rise of the Nazis as destiny, as an historical
) necessity. My opinion leans toward the latter interpretation.
)
Supporting Dan's opinion, here's an interesting quote from Steiner regarding
his thoughts about the place of "Jewry" in the world at his time...
"It can certainly not be denied, that today Jewry still appears as a closed
totality, and as such many times has intervened in the development of the
present situation in a way that has been less than positive for Western
cultural ideas. But Jewry as such has long since outlived itself, and has
no justification any more within modern life of the peoples, and that it
nevertheless has preserved itself is a mistake of world history, whose
consequences have been inevitable."
- Rudolf Steiner, founder of Waldorf Schools. from his review of
"Homunculus" by Hammerling (1888) published in the German Weekly
...Gary
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 09:31:23 -0700
From: soma (soma mwt.net)
Subject: Re: Difference between Free Schools and WE
Liz Reid&Errol Strelnikoff wrote:
) Here is the difference between free schools (These ones are called
) Sudbury Schools) and other schools, including Waldorf:
Sharon:
Thanks for the overview of school systems. Sudbury sounds interesting,
might have been more of what we were looking for. Waldorf *seemed* to be a
progressive art based school, a little humanist school with an
environmental focus.... little did we realize that it is based on occultism
and operating from that specific world view. A specific, calculated,
Anthroposophic indoctrination. Unfortunately, the organization doesn't
bother to inform parents of this important detail. I shall always regret
that I took Waldorf at their word, (arts based, nonsectarian). I shall
always regret that I did not read Rudolf Steiner before moving across
states to enroll my daughter in Waldorf. Waldorf's religious world view is
so completely incompatible with our world view that it was a ridiculous
choice for our family. I really wish Waldorf would own who they are so that
parents like me would have a clear understanding of what it is we are
getting in to.
Liz:
) Like Waldorf schools, Sudbury schools care about the whole child.
Sharon:
This phrase will forever make me stop and scrutinize. There are many
interpretations of this phrase. "Whole child" is a societal buzz word. What
exactly does this mean from a Sudbury vantage point? Because Waldorf is
based on a specific religious system, "whole child" means something
different to a Christian or atheist's interpretation. I think Waldorf
should be more up front with their reincarnation / astral body, etheric
body beliefs. They should be more upfront with their mission to inculcate
Anthroposophic notions in children through pictures. Now that I've read
Steiner and have some hermetic magic background from my recent studies, it
is easy for me to recognize all the Anthroposophic symbolism on every page
in every lesson book my daughter made in Waldorf. Too bad I was so ignorant
about this subject in those days. Pity Waldorf doesn't advertise that they
are training children to read the Akasha, or that they are a religious
system based on Rudolf Steiner's personal beliefs.
Rudolf Steiner:
"Concepts are abstractions, and they go through memory and antipathy. They
come from life before birth. If you use a lot of abstractions with
children, you will stimulate them to concentrate particularly intensively
upon the formation of carbonic acid in the blood and upon the
crystallization process in the body, upon dying. If you bring children as
many pictures as possible, if you educate them by speaking in pictures,
then you sow the seed for continuous development, because you direct
children toward the future, toward life after death. When we teach, in a
certain sense we take up the activities we experienced before birth.We must
see that thinking is pictorial activity which is based in what we
experienced before birth. Spiritual forces acted upon us so that a
pictorial activity was sown in us which continues after birth. When we
present pictures to children in teaching, we begin to take up this cosmic
activity again. We sow pictures in the children, which can become seeds
because we cultivate them in bodily activity. As we educators develop our
capability to act through pictures, we must continuously have the feeling
that we work upon the whole human being, that we create a resonance in the
whole human being when we work through pictures." [p 62 Foundations of
Human Experience, Foundations of Waldorf Education. Rudolf Steiner]
Sharon:
Glad you are here on critics, welcome!
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 07:48:25 -0700
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier
- III/III
)
)dottie -
)
) I am an avid reader of Dr.
)Steiner and to a certain extent in understanding I do
)believe pacifism does apply. And many people including
)myself will not pick up a gun and kill another person.
)Not ever. No matter what the circumstance. Not even a
)bug will I intentionally kill which I do not put on
)the same level as a human being. It is that I
)personally choose to not kill anything as part of my
)philosophy of life.
)
Debra:
Dottie, what book are you currently reading? Maybe we could discuss it...
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 09:00:45 -0700
From: "Steve Premo" (steve premofine.com)
Subject: Re: anthros, Nazis, and us
On 4 May 2001, at 0:07, Peter Staudenmaier wrote:
) When the critics point out anthroposophy's less than dignified record
) during the Third Reich, it can seem like we're unfairly singling out one
) small group from within the broad fabric of German society. But I think
) what we're really doing is calling attention to anthroposophy's own
) unwillingness to confront a painful history, one which continues to have
) repercussions today within anthroposophy and its institutions.
Yes, that's it. The involvement of Anthroposophy in the societal
underpinnings of the Third Reich, while disturbing, is not that big a
problem in itself. Waldorf schools are not neo-Nazi institutions. Nor
are they, generally, racist institutions, in spite of Steiner's racism.
His racism was typical for the time and place in which he lived, and was
relatively benign (to the extent racism may ever be relatively benign).
The problem is with the reluctance of modern Anthroposophists to distance
themselves from it. That is particularly disturbing, since many Waldorf
schools seem to have a German bias in terms of teaching language,
mythology, history, and so forth. This reluctance to acknowledge and
overcome the real horrors of German society in the 1930's and 40's, and
the role of some prominent Anthroposophists in supporting the attitudes
that made those horrors possible, is reminiscent of the reluctance of some
prominent Japanese politicians to acknowledge the rape of Manchuria and
other horrors committed by Japan during the war.
Even so, this is a relatively minor issue. It probably would have died
out a while back if it were not for Dottie's continuing complaints about
how the critics are so unfair to talk about it. This, in turn, is based
solely on her gut feeling that Steiner was too spiritually advanced to be
guilty of such thoughts or conduct. Judging from history, I'd say that
the proposition that only morally superior people can "see" and interact
with spiritual beings, and have profound spiritual experiences, is dubious
at best.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"There is a right and a wrong in the Universe and
that distinction is not difficult to make." - Superman
http://www.premofine.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 09:10:30 -0700
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: Waldorf teacher training
)Lisa -
)To a
)) Waldorf school, the very
)) most important quality a teacher can have is to be
)) somewhere on the road to
)) anthroposophy, because Waldorf education is *about*
)) anthroposophy.
)
)dottie -
)
)Dr. Steiner said that the most important quality a
)teacher must have is that she/he LOVE their students.
Debra:
Can you give us a quote, Dottie?
)
)Steiner intended that the foundation of the Waldorf
)schools be Anthroposophy. Although we have heard from
)David, that not all Waldorf schools integrate
)Anthroposophy.
Debra:
That isn't what David said at all. He is a board member who studies
Anthroposophy at his school. All board members do.
"Without Anthroposophy, there wouldn't be Waldorf education. Waldorf is the
child of Anthroposophy."
-Yuba River Charter School staff.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 16:20:05 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
Liz Reid wrote:
)I just joined this list a few days ago and I am amazed at the
) )conversations so far. Do you guys really think that this is helping )at
)all?
Hi, Liz. Yes, I think it is a help to people looking into Waldorf to find
the PLANS site, this list, and realize there are controversies around
Waldorf. This list is in the gutter at times, but it's the only place there
is a debate at all. Even on a good day you will find people have their
hackles up, but you can also get information here that you probably cannot
get anywhere else. Also, there are a bunch of people here who have been
going round and round on the same topics for *years*. It's like walking into
the middle of a family fight, kind of a shock, but once you know the
players, you can sort out what their experiences were, and whether they may
have some valid points (amidst the shouting).
I read your posts awhile back on SJU, and I remember the questions you
raised there about Waldorf's emphasis on authority. I do remember what you
said you wanted for your children (and now have read your later post about
Sudbury), and was absolutely flabbergasted that you would have your children
in Waldorf. It is about the furthest thing from "free" imaginable. So many
people have kids in Waldorf and do not know what Waldorf is about!
)The tone is so bad that I don't think you will get many people to stay )for
)long unless they like to argue just for the sake of arguing. What )people
)are saying on this list merely confirms what other people think )about
)those who dislike WE.
Well, probably so, but they think it anyway. They don't think it because of
what is written on this list. They think it because they feel criticized.
It's a public list and just about anybody can and does wander in and start a
ruckus. However, many of the participants are just normal (former) Waldorf
parents. We are the people you know at your child's school. We volunteered
(in my case worked at the school), did committees, cooked, cleaned, moved
furniture, painted walls, helped promote the school, all the stuff all the
enthusiastic Waldorf parents do. We had bad experiences there. It's too easy
to listen for a day or two and decide we are all crazy, I think.
)You are doing WE a favour by continuing with these posts.
I think you are right. I hope so. That would be a good thing coming of it
then. Anyone who comes here and learns what some of the issues are in
Waldorf, but still decides to put their child in Waldorf, at least goes in
with an awareness, and will probably speak of it to the teachers, etc., and
I am certain it has an inhibiting effect on certain excesses. There are
Waldorf parents and supporters who are here for the basic purpose of
learning what to watch out for, nipping problems in the bud. Personally, I
think the problems are systemic and reigning in fanaticism a little bit here
and there doesn't save the system, but it probably does a few kids a favor.
If you are saying people will read this and have a positive impression of
Waldorf, well, you can't have read far.
)As for the Nazi question, so many people collaborated with Hitler )inside
)and outside Germany. People in the US and in England fired )their Jewish
)employees. I realise that you are all responding to )exaggerated accounts
)of how Steiner's followers worked against the )National Socialists but the
)tone of your responses are in no way )convincing to anyone.
There too, you have to read for awhile. Just ignore the petty squabbles. Not
that that's easy. You have to figure out who's who first. Have you read
Peter Staudenmaier's posts in the past 2 weeks, or his article on the PLANS
web site? Please do so, and if you do not find his research useful (or if
you do), please come back and talk about it.
Welcome to the list.
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 16:25:38 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: WE and "cross-cultural studies"/ was Re: The Ethers and biology concepts in
Clara wrote about her high school philosophy class - no books, no
discussion, only dictation -
and Liz said:
)This is not much different from my high school experience in Germany. )We
)didn't use text books either, the teacher told us the lesson and we )took
)notes in our books and studied those notes to pass the tests.
I think a lot of Waldorf comes out of German traditions, in terms of day to
day, what is done in the classroom.
Wherever it comes from, I'm not impressed. A philosophy class for high
school juniors who are not expected to actually read a little philosophy?
Come on. It would not be a class worth taking.
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 16:39:19 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Sorry if people are getting multiple copies of my posts. (Maybe you aren't,
but I am.) I have no idea why this happens.
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 11:07:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
)
) Debra:
)
) Dottie, what book are you currently reading? Maybe
) we could discuss it...
)
)
dottie -
I am reading material related to the fact that I
believe Mary Magdalene was the author of the Fourth
Gospel or better known as The Gospel of John. Along
those lines I am reading Burning Bush and also The
Fifth Gospel and the Bible...
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 11:20:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: anthros, Nazis, and us
Steve -
)
) Even so, this is a relatively minor issue.
dottie -
Steven, you did not take it to be relatively minor
when I understood another lists memebers writings. So
I do not consider what Mr. Peter S. puts out regarding
Dr. Steiners complicty regarding Hitler and the
anihilation of millions of innocent people. Not minor
at all.
Steve -
It
) probably would have died
) out a while back if it were not for Dottie's
) continuing complaints about
) how the critics are so unfair to talk about it.
Dear Steven,
The reason this conversation keeps going is because
Mr. Peter S. keeps injecting it into the discussion.
And I in turn reply as I feel he has a hidden agenda
and unfortunately for PLANS it has now become a part
of their daily dialogue when what would serve the
parents most of all is to understand what some of the
parents went through while enrolling their children in
Waldorf. That is what PLANS is supposed to be about
and also this discussion group as far as I could tell.
And is Waldorf a good place for that particular
family.
The far out idea about Dr. Steiner collaborating with
the Nazis and the higher ups in the regime is just
ridiculous. And not because I think Steiner was too
enlightened it is because in all that I read that
accusation is the farthest from the truth. There is a
hidden agenda on Mr. Peter S.'s part to keep injecting
these accusations .
These accusations he makes are not along the same
lines as the parents on this list make. They accuse
Dr. Steiner of racism from their readings of his
books. I disagree with their understandings of the
words however Mr. Peter S.'s accusations are from a
completely different place and for a completely
different reason.
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 11:23:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf teacher training
) )dottie
) )Dr. Steiner said that the most important quality a
) )teacher must have is that she/he LOVE their
) students.
)
)
) Debra:
)
) Can you give us a quote, Dottie?
)
dottie -
Yes I will as soon as I get home. It is in The Kingdom
of Childhood by Dr. Steiner.
dottie -
) )Steiner intended that the foundation of the Waldorf
) )schools be Anthroposophy. Although we have heard
) from
) )David, that not all Waldorf schools integrate
) )Anthroposophy.
)
) Debra:
)
) That isn't what David said at all. He is a board
) member who studies
) Anthroposophy at his school. All board members do.
)
dottie -
Someone said that on this list I believe I still have
to find time to check the archives. I apologize to
David if it was not him.
Debra-
) "Without Anthroposophy, there wouldn't be Waldorf
) education. Waldorf is the
) child of Anthroposophy."
)
dottie -
I agree with this statement as this is what Dr.
Steiner also said. He said the foundation of his
Waldorf Schools was Anthroposophy.
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 18:56:18 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: anthros, Nazis, and us
Dottie wrote:
)The reason this conversation keeps going is because
)Mr. Peter S. keeps injecting it into the discussion.
)And I in turn reply as I feel he has a hidden agenda
)and unfortunately for PLANS it has now become a part
)of their daily dialogue
No, Dottie, it's on-topic for this list, and some of us are interested in
it, and were so before Peter S. "injected" anything.
There's really an epidemic lately of people who are fairly new to the list
popping in to scold us for the "tone of the list" or request that we "move
on" or switch topics. People can read the information on the PLANS website
if they're unclear on what topics are discussed here. They can also start
new threads if they aren't interested in any of the current ones. You don't
like the topic, you don't have to comment on the topic. That's just list
etiquette.
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 18:08:24 -0500
From: "Rainbow Bookstore Cooperative" (rbc supranet.com)
Subject: RE: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
dottie asked:
) And what is it that you would say Mr. Peter, Dr.
) Steiner personally influenced them [Nazi leaders]
) to do?
Steiner had a decisive influence on the so-called "green wing" of the Nazi
party. One of that wing's achievements was the introduction of
state-supported biodynamic farming initiatives: a case study in the
practical convergence of anthroposophy and Nazism. You might want to read
the article on anthroposophy and ecofascism on the PLANS site; it goes into
detail on this convergence. There were also Nazis who had little connection
to the green wing but were influenced by some of Steiner's ideas, such as
Otto Ohlendorf, whom I mentioned yesterday, and Oswald Pohl, the chief of
the concentration camp system. The book by Uwe Werner that Sune recommended
reviews the relationship between anthroposophists and leading Nazis like
Ohlendorf and Pohl. Then there were anthroposophists who were also Nazis
themselves, such as Karl Heise, Hans Rascher, Franz Lippert, and Georg
Haverbeck, and another group of anthroposophists that worked closely with
the Nazis without necessarily joining the party, such as Erhard Bartsch.
There are many, many more examples.
) And could you please state the names of the people
) you say Dr. Steiner influenced if you mean to say he
) collaborated and actually propelled the Nazi agenda
) forward. And also please state the reference outside
) of your own personal writings that support that.
Steiner wasn't a collaborator himself, since he was dead. Aside from the
ones named above, the best known Nazis who were significantly influenced by
Steiner were Hitler's deputy Rudolf Hess, Minister of Agriculture Walther
Darre, and Reich Advocate for the Landscape Alwin Seifert. There are many
sources on these figures and their relationship to anthroposophy. On Darre,
the best source in English (though it has serious drawbacks) is Anna
Bramwell's biography Blood and Soil: Walther Darre and Hitler's 'Green
Party'. You might also want to take a look at her book Ecology in the 20th
Century, which includes a whole chapter on the "green wing" of the Nazis
under the title "The Steiner Connection". A very good source in German about
Steiner's influence on Darre is Heinz Haushofer, Ideengeschichte der
Agrarwirtschaft und Agrarpolitik im deutschen Sprachgebiet, vol. II, pp.
269-271. From a perspective that is critical of Steiner, there is a very
good overview in Peter Bierl's book Wurzelrassen, Erzengel und Volksgeister,
especially the chapter on "Anthroposophie und NS-Faschismus"; there is also
very much relevant material in Volkmar Wolk's Natur und Mythos. The more
recent scholarship often focuses on particular aspects of the Nazis'
adoption of Steiner's ideas; one excellent new book along these lines is
Wolfgang Jacobeit and Christoph Kopke, Die Biologisch-dynamische
Wirtschaftsweise im KZ, an examination of the SS biodynamic plantations at
various concentration camps.
The most readily available information in English is about Hess; here is
a selection of literature on his relationship to Steiner's work: On Hess's
structuring of his personal diet and health care around anthroposophic
beliefs, see Albert Speer's Memoirs (I don't have a page citation for the
English edition but you can probably find it in the index; the relevant
passage is pp.133-134 in the German edition); Wulf Schwarzwaller, Rudolf
Hess, English edition pp. 112-115; and Roger Manvell and Heinrich Fraenkel,
Hess: A Biography, pp. 64-66. The German domestic intelligence service
considered Hess a "silent patron and follower of the anthroposophist Rudolf
Steiner." (Quoted in Walter Schellenberg's memoirs; again I don't have a
page citation for the English edition, the quote appears on p. 160 of the
German edition.) Hess himself told the doctor who examined him after his
flight to Scotland "that he had for years been interested in Steiner's
anthroposophy" (J.R. Rees, The Case of Rudolf Hess, p. 35). Scholars who
have noted Hess's anthroposophist leanings include, among others, Bramwell
("Hess was a follower of Rudolf Steiner", Ecology in the 20th Century p.
197); James Webb ("Rudolf Hess was a devotee of Rudolf Steiner", The
Harmonious Circle p. 186); and Hans Hakl (Hess was "devoted to Rudolf
Steiner's ideas", Hakl's afterword to Goodrick-Clarke, Die okkulten Wurzeln
des Nationalsozialismus, p. 199).
) These are very serious accusations you put forth while
) ignoring to all accounts what Sune has posted to the
) contrary. And his quotes are direct references to Dr.
) Steiner and also Antrhoposophists during the war and
) also its beginnings.
Sune posted a summary of Uwe Werner's book on anthroposophists during the
Third Reich. Far from ignoring Werner's research, I make extensive use of it
in my publications. Remember how you and I discussed, maybe a month ago, how
historians often come up with conflicting interpretations of the same set of
events? That is the case with me and Werner. His book is a defense of
anthroposophist activites during the Nazi period; my articles are a critique
of those same activities. As I pointed out yesterday, other anthroposophists
have been very critical of the blind spots in Werner's book. Many European
anthroposophists have been wrestling with this topic for years now, and they
have come up with a wide range of responses to anthroposophy's record under
the Nazis. Werner's book represents one end of that spectrum.
) What are your interpretations of Sune Nordwalls post
) regarding this issue.
As for Sune's own thoughts on the matter, I said most of what I had to say
last night. I think Sune is too credulous toward those sources, like Werner,
that provide a comforting explanation of a painful history. I also think he
is much too quick to dismiss the work of people he perceives as enemies of
anthroposophy; that is important in this case, because much of the best
research on the topic of anthros & Nazis has been done by
non-anthroposophists, including some who are quite critical of Steiner. On
all historical questions, I think it is important to take into account as
much of the available evidence as possible and weigh the differing
interpretations of that evidence carefully. I don't think you or Sune have
done that yet, but I'd be pleased if you would show me that I'm mistaken.
Peter S.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 18:09:03 -0500
From: "Rainbow Bookstore Cooperative" (rbc supranet.com)
Subject: RE: anthros, Nazis, and us
dottie on Ravenscroft's Spear of Destiny:
) I disagree with you about it being inane. Absolutely.
) And I would disagree with any person who has studied
) the metaphysical world and came to the same conclusion
) as you have. However I am aware that you do not study
) the metaphysical world so to have a debate with you
) regarding this book would be impossible.
Hi Dottie,
you might want to ask the other anthroposophists on the list what they think
of Ravenscroft's book (or his follow-up, Mark of the Beast). If they're not
familiar with it, you could contact an anthroposophist historian who used to
be on this list: Sean Slovan, sean.slovan gmx.net I think they will tell you
that the book is indeed phony. Good luck figuring this stuff out,
Peter S.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 18:21:54 -0500
From: "Rainbow Bookstore Cooperative" (rbc supranet.com)
Subject: RE: anthros, Nazis, and us
Steve Premo wrote:
) Yes, that's it. The involvement of Anthroposophy in the societal
) underpinnings of the Third Reich, while disturbing, is not that big a
) problem in itself. Waldorf schools are not neo-Nazi institutions. Nor
) are they, generally, racist institutions, in spite of Steiner's racism.
) His racism was typical for the time and place in which he lived, and was
) relatively benign (to the extent racism may ever be relatively benign).
)
) The problem is with the reluctance of modern Anthroposophists to distance
) themselves from it. That is particularly disturbing, since many Waldorf
) schools seem to have a German bias in terms of teaching language,
) mythology, history, and so forth. This reluctance to acknowledge and
) overcome the real horrors of German society in the 1930's and 40's, and
) the role of some prominent Anthroposophists in supporting the attitudes
) that made those horrors possible, is reminiscent of the
) reluctance of some
) prominent Japanese politicians to acknowledge the rape of Manchuria and
) other horrors committed by Japan during the war.
Hi Steve,
I always appreciate your voice of reason on this list. I think you and I
don't see eye to eye on the importance of the Nazi period to understanding
anthroposophy's history, but I agree with much of what you say above. You
put things in perspective nicely. If there are others on the list who have
understood my posts in the same way Dottie has, I hope they will take it
from me that I don't think the Waldorf movement is harboring cells of Nazis
or that Steiner was personally responsible for Hitler's crimes. Thanks for
adding a calmer tone to this debate,
Peter S.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 10:28:51 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier
- III/III
)Dan -
)) Shame on them all. Shouldn't we hold Steiner to a
)) higher standard,
)) being so enlightened? Given that he could read the
)) akashic record in
)) both directions, could he not have alerted the world
)) to what was
)) going to happen?
))
)dottie -
)
)Dan, first of all you do not believe he was an
)enlightened person. How can you argue from that
)standpoint? You can not have it both ways.
Neither can Anthroposophists, whose beliefs I am talking about. If
Steiner could see past and future, and saw the future of Germany, he
must also have either agreed that it was good (I hope not), or felt
that it was inevitable fate. This latter attitude would demonstrate
how belief in occultist philosophy can paralyze a person and prevent
him or her from taking urgently necessary actions.
(snip)
)dottie -
)) )Why do you insist on holding this man who founded a
)) )spiritual group accountable for what the NAZIS did?
)
)Dan -
)) Because he helped establish the philosophy that they
)) operated from.
))
)dottie -
)
)Well here we go again Dan. PLANS claims Steiner did
)nothing on his own. He stole all of his work from
)other peoples and philosophers. So here you want to
)argue from a standpoint that PLANS has already
)declared null and void. Except of course where it
)serves to bring a point home they would like to make.
)It doesn't work that way Dan. Either he was
)enlightened or he was not. Either he created his own
)work or he did not. What will you have?
He drew from many sources, which he did not honestly acknowledge as
sources. He added his own ideas, no question in my mind about that.
The integration of esoteric Christianity into Theosophy was his,
wasn't it?
I don't see him as enlightened, but he claimed to be so, and his
followers defend that claim.
)Dan-
)) He claimed to have supernatural knowledge that could
)) have been very
)) useful under the circumstances.
))
)dottie -
)
)Supernatural power and supernatural knowledge are two
)different things. And all masters or enlightened
)teachers obey a universal law in order to be able to
)attain this knowledge and that is that they will not
)use any of the knowledge gained from the higher worlds
)to alter anything on the physical plane.
A convenient excuse for charlatans and the self-deluded to hide
behind. Certainly Steiner used his imagined knowledge in attempts to
alter things in the real world. Anthroposophical medicine, for
example, and Waldorf education's child development theory.
)Now, I do
)believe you think such talk about the hiearchies and
)such is a bunch of baloney so I do not expect that you
)would think this kind of law would be a good one. And
)that is not a judgement on whether you believe or you
)do not.
)
)dottie
)) )Or maybe he should
)) )have organized his spiritual students and gave them
)) )arms. Now that would have been interesting.
))
)Dan -
)) Perhaps he should have. Anthroposophy isn't a
)) pacifist philosophy.
))
)
)dottie -
)
)Well i guess it would depend on how you apply the word
)pacifist to a spiritual group. I am not an
)Anthroposophist so I can not speak from direct
)understanding however I am an avid reader of Dr.
)Steiner and to a certain extent in understanding I do
)believe pacifism does apply. And many people including
)myself will not pick up a gun and kill another person.
)Not ever. No matter what the circumstance. Not even a
)bug will I intentionally kill which I do not put on
)the same level as a human being. It is that I
)personally choose to not kill anything as part of my
)philosophy of life.
)
)dottie -
What are the swords that the Waldorf kids brandish for? Not for
slicing fruit. They are for slaying enemies. You may be a pacifist,
and project your good feelings into your image of Waldorf, but it
isn't what you want it to be.
(snip)
)Dan -
)) I'm sure it was a heart-wrenching decision for many,
)) but one can't
)) ignore the consonance between what Steiner said
)) about Jews and the
)) government's actions to purge them.
)
)dottie -
)
)Which was what? What are you saying that Dr. Steiner
)said about the actions of the Jews being purged?
The purges of Jews from academic and professional jobs came about
eight years after Steiner's death.
) And
)when you say purged do you mean exterminated. Because
)if you are these are very serious accusations Dan, if
)this is what you mean and are not to be taken lightly.
)So how do you mean them?
After the Nazi party took power, Jewish people in academic and
professional positions lost their jobs, including the Jewish Waldorf
teachers.
)Dan -
)) We have heard of two U.S. cases in which Jewish
)) people wanting to be
)) Waldorf teachers were told that their culture was
)) incompatible
)
)dottie -
)
)Where are these cases told?
One is documented in the article published by Rudolf Steiner College:
http://www.waldorfcritics.org/articles/Racism_McDermott.html
The other incident was told to me by San Diego public school teacher
Lilian Cooper. I believe it was Themba Sadiki, the director of the
school, who told one of the original class of teachers being trained
for the school that her Judaism was incompatible with being a Waldorf
teacher. The teacher was deeply disturbed by this and quit.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 08:56:48 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Difference between Free Schools and WE
Liz, thanks for your clear and detailed explanation of Sudbury. I
wish Lee Story (North Reading, MA) was still subscribed; he used to
make good arguments in favor of democratically-organized schools.
I would say in some respects Sudbury is the complete opposite of
Waldorf; in Waldorf children are supposed to be protected against
decision-making of any kind, everything is programmed by the teacher.
Personally I would prefer a middle ground between these extremes.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 19:01:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: anthros, Nazis, and us
) dottie on Ravenscroft's Spear of Destiny:
)
) ) I disagree with you about it being inane.
) Absolutely.
) ) And I would disagree with any person who has
) studied
) ) the metaphysical world and came to the same
) conclusion
) ) as you have. However I am aware that you do not
) study
) ) the metaphysical world so to have a debate with
) you
) ) regarding this book would be impossible.
)
) Hi Dottie,
)
) you might want to ask the other anthroposophists on
) the list what they think
) of Ravenscroft's book (or his follow-up, Mark of the
) Beast). If they're not
) familiar with it, you could contact an
) anthroposophist historian who used to
) be on this list: Sean Slovan, sean.slovan gmx.net I
) think they will tell you
) that the book is indeed phony. Good luck figuring
) this stuff out,
)
) Peter S.
)
dottie -
Well Peter the truth is that I do my own internal
thinking and do not rely on whether someone else
thinks something is hogwash. I look to my self to see
whether something rings true for me. I have learned to
never depend on another mans thinking to tell me what
is right and what is wrong. I am a really great judge
for myself.
See that is the interesting thing about my
understandings of Dr. Steiner. His teachings have
freed me from depending on other peoples thoughts. I
can take them all into consideration and see the
positive and the negative and what the overview of the
work is, however I must trust my judgement of it.
I am not saying that the book is full of Truths but
there definitely are some there. And it was well worth
the read to find those Truths.
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 23:28:12 -0400
From: "David Cann" (canndw netzero.net)
Subject: Re: Waldorf teacher training
) dottie -
)
) Steiner intended that the foundation of the Waldorf
) schools be Anthroposophy. Although we have heard from
) David, that not all Waldorf schools integrate
) Anthroposophy.
David: If I'm the 'David' you are referring to, I seriously doubt that I
actually ever said that. Our faculty and board are quite deliberate and
conscious about our school being an anthroposophical endeavor.
I just disagree with the "inculcate into the children" line that I often
read here.
David
NetZero Platinum
No Banner Ads and Unlimited Access
Sign Up Today - Only $9.95 per month!
http://www.netzero.net
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 23:36:47 -0400
From: "David Cann" (canndw netzero.net)
Subject: Re: Question regarding teeth
Liz Reid:
) I was wondering if anyone knows what the policy is at most Waldorf schools
) regarding teeth and first grade. Can a child still enter first grade even
) if they haven't lost any of their milk teeth? The child in question is
six
) and a half.
David: While losing teeth is certainly on the "first grade readiness
checklist", I'm sure, around here a child's birthday is the most reliable
indicator of grade placement. Our general 'cut-off' date is June 1st, but
some younger children are included, too (which works sometimes, and doesn't
other times).
Nobody ever discussed our children's teeth with us when discussing first
grade readiness, even with my first child, who is eleven days younger than
the 'cutoff' date.
David
NetZero Platinum
No Banner Ads and Unlimited Access
Sign Up Today - Only $9.95 per month!
http://www.netzero.net
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 21:16:10 -0700
From: "Liz Reid&Errol Strelnikoff" (lizanderrol home.com)
Subject: RE: Difference between Free Schools and WE
) Sharon:
) This phrase will forever make me stop and scrutinize. There are many
) interpretations of this phrase. "Whole child" is a societal
) buzz word. What
) exactly does this mean from a Sudbury vantage point? Because
) Waldorf is
) based on a specific religious system, "whole child" means something
) different to a Christian or atheist's interpretation.
if you are interested in an answer to your question you could look at
these two schools:
www.sudval.org and www.playmountain.org
These websites give quite detailed descriptions as to what free schools
are about.
Liz
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 21:30:27 -0700
From: "Liz Reid&Errol Strelnikoff" (lizanderrol home.com)
Subject: RE: Difference between Free Schools and WE
) Sharon:
) This phrase will forever make me stop and scrutinize. There are
many
) interpretations of this phrase. "Whole child" is a societal
) buzz word. What
) exactly does this mean from a Sudbury vantage point? Because
) Waldorf is
) based on a specific religious system, "whole child" means something
) different to a Christian or atheist's interpretation.
if you are interested in an answer to your question you could
look at these two schools:
www.sudval.org and www.playmountain.org
These websites give quite detailed descriptions as to what
free schools are about.
Liz
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 22:44:14 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: RE: anthros, Nazis, and us
Dottie, you wrote,
)Well Peter the truth is that I do my own internal
)thinking and do not rely on whether someone else
)thinks something is hogwash. I look to my self to see
)whether something rings true for me. I have learned to
)never depend on another mans thinking to tell me what
)is right and what is wrong. I am a really great judge
)for myself.
This is exemplary New Age epistemology, Dottie. "If it feels right,
it must be true." Your belief system is undefended by skepticism.
It's not surprising that you're following a crackpot guru. Lucky for
you that you chose a relatively benign one.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 02:07:39 -0700
From: Harvey Bornfield (earlyfire earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: anthros, Nazis, and us
Dan et all:
Here's an interesting differentiation which might make sense to ponder:
Is there a difference in degree of certitude between a person who
embraces a belief system and one who is able to come to experience what
presents and, delivers first hand compelling self-evidence which founds
and therefore validates a belief system?
Whoever adheres to the first operates out of a conspicuous limitation,
confined by the corral of inherited 'hand-me-down thoughts', while who
seeks the second, not content to remain bereft of the challenge of
confronting terror in order to remain porous and vulnerable to
discovery, seeks to embrace and assimilate "Graphic Spiritual
Material", "Terra Incognita"
Consider the piercing opening of Holderlin's poem "Patmos" (where the
Apocalypse of St. John the Divine is sourced 2000 years ago - seems like
almost yesterday ;-D )
"Near is and difficult to find God. But where peril lurks, thrives also
salvation. In darkness dwell the eagles, and fearless tread the Sons of
the Alps over the way of the abyss, on delicately built bridges." There
is no such thing as a casual revelation. In any case, sorry, he died in
the early 1800's, missed the boat on being brandable, write-offable as
New Age"
We were talking about belief systems, and what enables authoring belief
systems. Affirming "vs." Authoring
Triple-beam balances come in both visible and invisible genres. If it
were not so, never was there ever a metaphor or an allegory to house in
the guise of an external symbol or the clothing of an outer adventure, a
cornucopias of hidden wondrous, unquantifiable meanings, without which,
poems would be stripped of their hubcaps and instantly turn to CNN
broadcasts, jam-packed and chock full of delicious, amassably
databasable facts. So now our differentiation becomes: If you place
opinion and intuition in opposing dishes of the scale that money can't
see, that money can't buy, the -as you like to call it- the "Non-sense"
scale, the one which must be anchored in the balance of human judgment,
don't be surprised to discover that since opinions possess us and
experience expands us, that doubt leaves the first way up in the air.
But as for Dottie's "failure" to experience and cherish and champion and
wax ferocious in advocating the requisite skepticism "REQUIRED" to be
taken seriously "BY THE REALLY MATURE" objective, sabotagable mortal,
which is the way all "HONEST" people "MUST" be, bereft of real
possibility of being certain of anything, agnostic, an epidemically
prevalent self-styled official state religion, or at least
'stated-opinion' and there's the rub, I'll close with some words of
another almost altogether unmalevolent 19th century Crackpot, hoping
perhaps we can reverse-grandfather him into the convenient,
Pinata-burstable category of a New Age Fanatic fit to intercept head-on
the majestic sweep of Babe Ruth's Waldorfcritic-quality standard-setting
bat.
"The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away
therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in
thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the
eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through
the knowledge of thy neighbor...."
Hidden Words, Arabic, #2
Dan Dugan wrote:
) Dottie, you wrote,
)
) )Well Peter the truth is that I do my own internal
) )thinking and do not rely on whether someone else
) )thinks something is hogwash. I look to my self to see
) )whether something rings true for me. I have learned to
) )never depend on another mans thinking to tell me what
) )is right and what is wrong. I am a really great judge
) )for myself.
)
) This is exemplary New Age epistemology, Dottie. "If it feels right,
) it must be true." Your belief system is undefended by skepticism.
) It's not surprising that you're following a crackpot guru. Lucky for
) you that you chose a relatively benign one.
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 270
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Question regarding teeth
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
Coherence
By mdarmody home.com
Re: Coherence
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: anthros, Nazis, and us
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: Coherence
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
By dottie_z yahoo.com
feelings, nothing more than feelings
By momof2gals mindspring.com
RE: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: Coherence
By snell netshel.net
Re: feelings, nothing more than feelings
By dottie_z yahoo.com
thinking hearts? er, well ...
By momof2gals mindspring.com
RE: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
By rbc supranet.com
The Green movement and the Green Party
By lizanderrol home.com
Re: The Green movement and the Green Party
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: thinking hearts? er, well ...
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: Coherence
By dottie_z yahoo.com
RE: anthros, Nazis, and us
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: anthros, Nazis, and us
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: The Green movement and the Green Party
By Gary GoodWinter.com
RE: The Green movement and the Green Party
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier -
III/III
By soma mwt.net
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Waldorf book list for small children
By dan dandugan.com
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier
- III/III
By dan dandugan.com
Re: thinking hearts? er, well ...
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Coherence
By mypostbox.formail virgin.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 12:56:40 +0200
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Question regarding teeth
David wrote:
) Liz Reid:
) ) I was wondering if anyone knows what the policy is at most Waldorf schools
) ) regarding teeth and first grade. Can a child still enter first grade even
) ) if they haven't lost any of their milk teeth? The child in question is
) ) six and a half.
) David: While losing teeth is certainly on the "first grade readiness
) checklist", I'm sure, around here a child's birthday is the most reliable
) indicator of grade placement. Our general 'cut-off' date is June 1st, but
) some younger children are included, too (which works sometimes, and doesn't
) other times).
)
) Nobody ever discussed our children's teeth with us when discussing first
) grade readiness, even with my first child, who is eleven days younger than
) the 'cutoff' date.
When I started going to standard public school in Sweden in the 1950s',
having lost the milk teeth or not was one of the criteria used in
judging school readiness.
Regards,
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell
biology, EU, globalization and social threefolding
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 14:10:53 +0200
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
Rainbow Bookstore Cooperative wrote:
) On
) all historical questions, I think it is important to take into account as
) much of the available evidence as possible and weigh the differing
) interpretations of that evidence carefully. I don't think you or Sune have
) done that yet, but I'd be pleased if you would show me that I'm mistaken.
You are completely mistaken about my willingness to weigh different
historical facts in judging the conducts of different anthroposophists
during the 1900s'.
What seriously does piss me is the very lighthearted, careless and often
cocky way you mix history with lies and untruths in your description of
especially anthroposophy as such, as demonstrated by your fantasy
construction of the content of 'Mission of Folk Souls' without having
read it and based on your 'reliable' secondary sources in trying to make
your thesis' plausible.
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell
biology, EU, globalization and social threefolding
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 14:44:44 +0200
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
) What seriously does piss me is the very lighthearted, careless and often
) cocky way you mix history with lies and untruths in your description of
) especially anthroposophy as such, as demonstrated by your fantasy
) construction of the content of 'Mission of Folk Souls' without having
) read it and based on your 'reliable' secondary sources in trying to make
) your thesis' plausible...
without most readers having any possibility whatsoever to know, realize
and judge the extent of your untruthfulness, if not doing research on
their own in a way that is beyond the possibilities of most, and making
everything else you use and quote as 'sources' and say on the subject
questionable in a way that does not seem clear to you.
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell
biology, EU, globalization and social threefolding
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 08:26:54 -0700
From: "Marinell Darmody" (mdarmody home.com)
Subject: Coherence
I've noticed something in all my reading of Waldorf materials and on this
list. People who are Anthroposophists are not very good writers, especially
compared to someone like Steve Premo. Steve's writing is concise, to the
point, without a lot of extra verbiage. Anthroposophist's writings are
circular, full of inane things that don't make sense and difficult to
understand. I wrote to the Rudolf Steiner college for admission
information and they sent me a copy of their newsletter "The Express."
Their student writings are some of the worst compositions I've ever read.
They would never get through bonehead English at a CA University. This
inability to write critically and logically is one of the things that
confirmed for me that Waldorf Education is not up to par.
I'm not trying to insult anyone but anyone who has been to college knows
that being able to write coherently is one of the first skills one must
achieve.
Just my observation,
Marinell
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 09:20:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Coherence
Marinell -
People who are Anthroposophists are not very
) good writers, especially
) compared to someone like Steve Premo This
) inability to write critically and logically is one
) of the things that
) confirmed for me that Waldorf Education is not up to
) par.
dottie -
Ouch. Except Marinell I am not an Antrhoposophist. I
am a Christian. I assume it is my writing you are
speaking of as it is a complaint I hear often even
from my parents. I mean it can't be Sune Nordwalls or
Jeff Aeun (although he is not an Anthroposophist),
Sune is wonderful in his posts.
It seems my ability to speak four languages has gotten
in the way of the written word. It may also be due to
the fact that I totoally immerse myself in the street
culture and language as it is the only way I am
accepted with the homeless youth.
)
And I do not believe that the other Anthroposophists
on this list went to Waldorf, however I could be
wrong. So I am not sure how that confirms Waldorf not
being up to par.
Marinell,
) I'm not trying to insult anyone but anyone who has
) been to college knows
) that being able to write coherently is one of the
) first skills one must
) achieve.
)
dottie -
My parents would be happy if I could return to
speaking coherently let alone writing coherently :)
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 09:30:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: anthros, Nazis, and us
DAn-
) ) This is exemplary New Age epistemology, Dottie.
) "If it feels right,
) ) it must be true." Your belief system is undefended
) by skepticism.
dottie -
Dan, it is not only about feeling. I trust my gut
instinct. I take into account all things from both
sides. I then check it out. My internal self (i
imagine we all have one of them) then makes its
decision. Is it wrong, sometimes...and that is what i
love about being on this list. I get to be a part of
putting my mind to the test of what I say I am in
search of: The Truth, whether or not I like it.
Dan -
) ) It's not surprising that you're following a
) crackpot guru. Lucky for
) ) you that you chose a relatively benign one.
) )
dottie -
Yikes!!! Okay Mr. Dan Dugan, that I am following
anything pisses me off :) I am LEADING my self to my
self. And boy is she beautiful, little rough around
the edges but beautiful ;)
Happy Saturday to you,
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 12:35:54 -0400
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: Coherence
Marinell,
I have often observed the same thing when reading both posts and other
compositions (in newsletters, etc.). I just did not have the nerve to say
it, as did you! (g)
Being able to read for comprehension, to use critical thinking skills in
evaluating and interpreting what one has read, and to write in a coherent
and understandable style *is*, without a doubt, one of the most important
skills a person can have in today's communication-oriented society. Every
day, I am so thankful that my older daughter (the one who was in a WS the
longest) taught herself to read at around age 4, and did a lot of writing at
home with us thereafter. Today, she is in a gifted and talented language
arts program at a local public school (grade 5), and won a statewide poetry
contest. (Proud mother alert!)
If we had had to rely on her Waldorf school to teach her to read and write,
I am afraid that she would be far behind where she is today. (In fact, had
she not self-taught reading, I am sure we would have pulled her from the
school much, much earlier. The fact that she was able to read so competently
at an early age made us much less aware of what she was *not* getting.)
Perhaps I over-estimate the importance of good reading comprehension and
writing skills because I write for a living. But I do know this: being able
to write clearly often reflects an ability to think clearly. (Or maybe it is
the other way around.) And thinking clearly *is* a necessity in today's
world.
Thanks for the observation, Marinell, and for the guts to mention it.
Lisa
----------
)From: Marinell Darmody (mdarmody home.com)
)To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)Subject: Coherence
)Date: Sat, May 5, 2001, 11:26 AM
)
) I've noticed something in all my reading of Waldorf materials and on this
) list. People who are Anthroposophists are not very good writers, especially
) compared to someone like Steve Premo. Steve's writing is concise, to the
) point, without a lot of extra verbiage. Anthroposophist's writings are
) circular, full of inane things that don't make sense and difficult to
) understand. I wrote to the Rudolf Steiner college for admission
) information and they sent me a copy of their newsletter "The Express."
) Their student writings are some of the worst compositions I've ever read.
) They would never get through bonehead English at a CA University. This
) inability to write critically and logically is one of the things that
) confirmed for me that Waldorf Education is not up to par.
)
) I'm not trying to insult anyone but anyone who has been to college knows
) that being able to write coherently is one of the first skills one must
) achieve.
)
) Just my observation,
)
) Marinell
)
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 09:46:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
Dan -
) Neither can Anthroposophists, whose beliefs I am
) talking about.
dottie -
Well I know I can say he was an enlightened person.
And how I can tell that is that his works lead me to
the Truth within my self. What he has written is
actually how it is as far as I have been able to tell
up until this point in my search.
Dan-
If
) Steiner could see past and future, and saw the
) future of Germany, he
) must also have either agreed that it was good (I
) hope not), or felt
) that it was inevitable fate. This latter attitude
) would demonstrate
) how belief in occultist philosophy can paralyze a
) person and prevent
) him or her from taking urgently necessary actions.
)
dottie -
)From all the works I have read regarding the earlier
war when he was still alive point to his being
concerned about what was happening in Europe.
Dan -
)
) He drew from many sources, which he did not honestly
) acknowledge as
) sources.
dottie -
I would have to say either you do not know the truth
of this or you don't want to see it. He repeatedly in
all of his books tell where his sources come from. All
of them. Those insights he arrived at from his
internal search he states them as well.
Dan-
He added his own ideas, no question in my
) mind about that.
) The integration of esoteric Christianity into
) Theosophy was his,
) wasn't it?
dottie -
I love this list and the other list because it forces
me to reread his works which I probably never would
have otherwise.
What I get from his Theosophy days is that he entered
into this group because at the time there wasn't
really any other formalized group that was open to the
spiritual search in that particular manner.
So I am not sure if he brought in Esoteric
Christianity to Theosophy. However if he did they sure
took a wrong turn with trying to get him to say he was
a reincarnated John The Baptist to Krinshmurtis
Christ...whew...
Dan -
)
) A convenient excuse for charlatans and the
) self-deluded to hide
) behind. Certainly Steiner used his imagined
) knowledge in attempts to
) alter things in the real world. Anthroposophical
) medicine, for
) example, and Waldorf education's child development
) theory.
)
dottie -
Hold on a second Dan, bringing medicine from his own
understandings of the human beings organs is not
altering the physical realm in the sense we are
talking about.
)
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 12:47:29 -0400
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: feelings, nothing more than feelings
The tireless Dottie, in a recent post, says:
(( See that is the interesting thing about my
understandings of Dr. Steiner. His teachings have
freed me from depending on other peoples thoughts.))
Lisa here: Dottie, has it occurred to you that perhaps the real "interesting
thing" is that you are now depending upon WHAT "DR." STEINER THINKS to
decide what YOU think?
In other words, you *believe* your thoughts are independent and free,
but in reality, they are not, as you are falling in line with what Steiner
wanted you to think.
I anticipate your wrath at this statement, or at least your annoyance.
But your statement that you no longer depend on what other people think to
decide what you think -- that you just see how it feels to you instead --
really means that you do not use *critical thinking skills* to evaluate
statements, etc.
If you are older than 20, than you would no doubt agree with me that
feelings are not always the best guide to actions. For instance, I certainly
would not rely on my emotions and feelings alone to decide how to budget my
household income. It is necessary also to rely on the facts of real life as
they lie before me. An inane and trivial example, but one that does the job,
I think.
I find it interesting that those who study Steiner's work and defend it
as a spiritual path often emphasize the "feeling" aspect of Anthroposophy.
Yet Steiner's work emphasizes what he calls the "reality" of experience that
can come through the practice of spiritual science. (In other words, Steiner
doesn't ask followers to "feel" the presence of the guardian of the
threshold; he says, outright, that an initiate can actually "see" and
experience that guardian as real.)
Let's face it: every single day, you must depend upon what other people
think or have learned to evaluate and navigate the world around you. A
cartographer certainly mapped out the city you move around every day;
scientists experimented with medical treatments and modalities that you
probably use; if you drive a car, you are relying on the thoughts of others.
If you read the news, or watch it on television or listen to it on the
radio, you are "listening" to the interpretations that reporters have given
to events and occasions, and you -- whether you admit it or not -- sort
those out using logic, etc. to come to your own ideas as to what is going
on.
It's not all about feelings, Dottie.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 10:09:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
Peter S.
) Steiner had a decisive influence on the so-called
) "green wing" of the Nazi
) party. One of that wing's achievements was the
) introduction of
) state-supported biodynamic farming initiatives: a
) case study in the
) practical convergence of anthroposophy and Nazism.
)
dottie -
Okay Mr. Peter, you want to say that Dr. Steiner
developed a biodynamic farming initiative and the
GREEN PARTY liked what he came up with and they chose
to incorporate his learnings with their own.
Are you aware that he is considered the founder of
this biodynamic farming here in the U.S. I have run
into so many people who have no clue about his
spiritual leanings but totally support and utilize his
biodynamic methods? Did you know that?
Peter -
You might want to read
) the article on anthroposophy and ecofascism on the
) PLANS site; it goes into
) detail on this convergence.
dottie -
I did read your article. I have to say it was just a
bunch of words to me. There was no insight. None. It
just felt like someone trying to prove 'this thing' in
a very abrupt circular way of inuendos that can not be
really checked out. Oh it looks clean on paper but
once you go to check the details it is almost
impossible. Very interesting. It is in this article
that I realized you have a hidden agenda and it does
not serve the real purpose of plans. I mean even DAn
call him a relatively benign leader...
Peter S.
There were also Nazis
) who had little connection
) to the green wing but were influenced by some of
) Steiner's ideas, such as
) Otto Ohlendorf, whom I mentioned yesterday, and
) Oswald Pohl, the chief of
) the concentration camp system.
dottie -
But the whole point is Peter, did they read of
Steiners works and were influenced by them or did he
directly go to them and show them how to anihilate
millions of innocent people. All of Steiner works
speak of understanding and love and the importance of
humanity...it does not jive with what you are trying
to prove. And biodynamics being one of the
issues...please...
Peter S.
The book by Uwe
) Werner that Sune recommended
) reviews the relationship between anthroposophists
) and leading Nazis like
) Ohlendorf and Pohl. Then there were anthroposophists
) who were also Nazis
) themselves, such as Karl Heise, Hans Rascher, Franz
) Lippert, and Georg
) Haverbeck, and another group of anthroposophists
) that worked closely with
) the Nazis without necessarily joining the party,
) such as Erhard Bartsch.
) There are many, many more examples.
dottie -
Well Peter at least we have Sune who would reccomend a
book for people to look at and draw their conclusions.
And just like in any group of people even here at
PLANS we all have our own world philosophies. But to
say Steiner was in collaboration with the
exterminations of people is just plain untrue. And I
suspect you know that.
Peter S.
) Steiner wasn't a collaborator himself, since he was
) dead.
dottie -
Well at least we can agree on something. However all
your works do try to highlight the fact that he was an
underground collaborator. That is your insinuations.
To make a retreat from that is ridiculous on your
part.
Peter S.
Aside from the
) ones named above, the best known Nazis who were
) significantly influenced by
) Steiner were Hitler's deputy Rudolf Hess, Minister
) of Agriculture Walther
) Darre, and Reich Advocate for the Landscape Alwin
) Seifert.
dottie -
Oh JEEZ Peter...do you get what ruckus you brought up
about the NAZIS and Dr. Steiner? Does anyone on this
list realize you are speaking of A REGIME of
biodynamics being the culprit? Hello is anyone
listening to the leaders supposedly that Dr. Steiner
influenced. Oh Jeez.
And he is also influencing hundreds of thousands of
farmers here in the US also. Well lets hope there is
no war on this front less we have another Mr. Peter S.
come to the rescue and share how ANTHROPOSOPHISTS are
the culprits. Whew...
Peter S.
The more
) recent scholarship often focuses on particular
) aspects of the Nazis'
) adoption of Steiner's ideas;
dottie -
Okay your argument is becoming pretty clear and I do
not believe you are right . The more I go on with your
paper and explanations I can see what you are doing.
You are blaming Steiner for the adaptation of work he
brought forth in good faith. People adopting Steiners
ideas. Okay. Now we have Christians who adopted
Christs ideas only to go against the very ideal he
sought to implant in the hearts and minds of our
people.
So Steiner puts out ideas of biodynamics and The Green
Party adopts them. Okay and now they use them to do
what? Okay must be Steiners fault that he came up with
a very good biodynamic idea for our Earth and someone
misuses it. Okay.
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 12:39:39 -0700
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: Coherence
)Marinell -
)People who are Anthroposophists are not very
)) good writers, especially
)) compared to someone like Steve Premo This
)) inability to write critically and logically is one
)) of the things that
)) confirmed for me that Waldorf Education is not up to
)) par.
)
)dottie -
)
)Ouch. Except Marinell I am not an Antrhoposophist. I
)am a Christian. I assume it is my writing you are
)speaking of as it is a complaint I hear often even
)from my parents. I mean it can't be Sune Nordwalls or
)Jeff Aeun (although he is not an Anthroposophist),
)Sune is wonderful in his posts.
Debra:
Dottie,
As a one-room-country-school educated person who became a mother at age 15
and continued my under par education all the way through mail-order
college, I readily admit that my writing skills are under par. I have been
viciously and repeatedly attacked on this list because of my lack of
spelling and writing skills. However deficient I am in the spelling and
writing arena, there is nothing wrong with my comprehension or thinking
skills. I am a self-taught and desperate reader who entered school at age 5
already reading. I read anything from cereal boxes to Steiner to medical
journals. My vocabulary certainly surpasses my spelling skills, and is a
continual challenge when I write. By 5th grade, I tested at college level
in reading comprehension. In many ways I relate to Waldorf educated kids
who wish they had a better education.
However, I have seen poor writing and spelling skills in crystal clear
thinking people. I can excuse that over good spelling skills and properly
executed sentence structure if the content demonstrates a critical lack of
thinking ability.
Just my blunt opinion.
)Marinell,
)
)) I'm not trying to insult anyone but anyone who has
)) been to college knows
)) that being able to write coherently is one of the
)) first skills one must
)) achieve.
Debra:
My desire is to give my children a better education than I had. I have
succeeded with my 31 yo daughter, who like Lisa's daughter went through
high school in the gifted program before attending college and earning a
REAL degree. I have the same goals for my boys. That is why I am so ticked
off at Waldorf's lies. A schooling system that intentionally disables a
child from developing thinking and writing skills was the last of my
desires. I wish they would have advertised this little quote on their
brochure. I would have turned away on a dime.
***
"It is a very bad thing to be able to write early. Reading and writing as
we have them today are really not suited to the human being till a later
age - the elenth or twelfth year - and the more a child is blessed with not
being able to read and write well before this age, the better it is for the
later years of life. A child who cannot write properly at thirteen or
fourteen ... is not so hindered for later spiritual development as one who
early, at seven or eight years, can already read and write properly."
- Rudolf Steiner, founder of Waldorf Schools, Kingdom of Childhood:
Introductory Talks on Waldorf Education, Lecture 2, pp. 26,27. (1924)
Anthroposophic Press, revised translation, 1995.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 13:56:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: feelings, nothing more than feelings
Lisa -
) The tireless Dottie, in a recent post, says:
)
) (( See that is the interesting thing about my
) understandings of Dr. Steiner. His teachings have
) freed me from depending on other peoples thoughts.))
)
) Lisa here: Dottie, has it occurred to you that
) perhaps the real "interesting
) thing" is that you are now depending upon WHAT "DR."
) STEINER THINKS to
) decide what YOU think?
dottie -
Do you mean how it seems the members of PLANS do in
regards to their beliefs.? How they fall in line
behind their idea of what is right and what is wrong?
Is that what you mean, Lisa?
And oh how PLANS would like to believe that everyone
is hoodwinked into following Dr. Steiner blindly.
However Lisa it is not true. It may be for some but
not for all. Nor do I believe Dr. Steiner would think
anyone who did that was able to truly enter into the
spiritual worlds.
Dr. Steiner opens the door to certain ideas and
thoughts just like all of us who have been to school
or who converse with others on our own personal
idealogies regarding life.
Lisa -
In other words, you *believe* your thoughts are
) independent and free,
) but in reality, they are not, as you are falling in
) line with what Steiner wanted you to think.
dottie -
And how would you know that my thoughts are not
independant and free. I dare to say it seems my
thoughts are more independant than you have shown to
be in yours. I think it is pretty clear in the way you
fall in line and can not even step out of the box long
enough to notice.
Lisa -
) I anticipate your wrath at this statement, or at
) least your annoyance.
dottie -
Of course you would. You know to accuse someone of
something that you do not have personal knowledge of
and be such a hippocrit in it, would surely bring
about a little head butting. So easy to just throw
accusations out without any knowledge. It seems to be
the ongoing theme here at times.
Lisa -
) But your statement that you no longer depend on what
) other people think to
) decide what you think -- that you just see how it
) feels to you instead --
) really means that you do not use *critical thinking
) skills* to evaluate
) statements, etc.
dottie -
Are you sure that is what it means, Lisa? Are you 100%
sure you are right?
Unfortunately our public schools do not teach critical
thinking skills. I have been forced through life
experiences to teach myself which I am grateful for.
Women in our society are taught to bow down all the
time. My spirit doesn't allow that from me any longer.
How bout yours?
Lisa -
) If you are older than 20, than you would no
) doubt agree with me that
) feelings are not always the best guide to actions.
dottie -
Lisa, my feelings do not guide me. It is the wisdom of
my heart that guides me. I have a thinking heart. If I
allowed my feelings to be the guide of my self I most
likely would be dead by now. And if I allowed soley my
mind that would not serve me.
Lisa -
I find it interesting that those who study
) Steiner's work and defend it
) as a spiritual path often emphasize the "feeling"
) aspect of Anthroposophy.
) Yet Steiner's work emphasizes what he calls the
) "reality" of experience that
) can come through the practice of spiritual science.
) (In other words, Steiner
) doesn't ask followers to "feel" the presence of the
) guardian of the
) threshold; he says, outright, that an initiate can
) actually "see" and
) experience that guardian as real.)
dottie -
Absolutely!!! It is through his works I woke up from
the stupor of my society teaching me to follow the
leader. They all know what is best for me. I do not
have to think, I just have to make babies. Men know
what is best.
Lisa -
) Let's face it: every single day, you must depend
) upon what other people
) think or have learned to evaluate and navigate the
) world around you.
dottie -
But that doesn't mean that if I do not come to the
same conclusions I must trust that they are right.
Right? I am on the search for Truth. So I must decide
what is true for me. I die alone no one is going to
die with me. So I better be able to be 100%
accountable for what ever decisions I make in life.
Lisa -
) cartographer certainly mapped out the city you move
) around every day;
) scientists experimented with medical treatments and
) modalities that you
) probably use; if you drive a car, you are relying on
) the thoughts of others.
dottie -
What are you possibly talking about? I am relying on
others thoughts because they built a car or medicines
they have discovered? These are not the thoughts we
are talking about.
And I do not drive, nor do I watch t.v. nor do I live
my way that is considered conventional by any
standards. I live unto myself and my decision to make
my life about uplifting others less fortunate than
myself.
I am understanding that there are no true individuals.
Not one. However I try my utmost to be unto my own
spirit according to my higher selfs highest idea of
itself. And I fall short of the glory of Her all the
time.
Lisa -
) If you read the news, or watch it on television or
) listen to it on the
) radio, you are "listening" to the interpretations
) that reporters have given
) to events and occasions, and you -- whether you
) admit it or not -- sort
) those out using logic, etc. to come to your own
) ideas as to what is going on.
dottie -
Yes I definitley listen to the interpretations and
sift through lies everyday of my life. The biggest one
is that women are inferior to men.
So I come to conclusions after carefully thinking out
all the possibilities of what has been said versus
what others have said versus what my higher self
intuits to the Truth. Now I make mistakes all the time
and what I like about myself the most is that I can
own up to them. That does not seem to be a quality
that exists on most of those who speak on behalf of
PLANS.
Lisa -
It's not all about feelings, Dottie.
dottie -
I agree with you.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 18:01:45 -0400
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: thinking hearts? er, well ...
The indefatiguable Dottie says:
((Lisa, my feelings do not guide me. It is the wisdom of
my heart that guides me. I have a thinking heart.))
Lisa here: Dottie, I think that the above statement about a "thinking heart"
pretty much sums up what I was speaking of earlier.
My sister, who is a third grade teacher in our excellent county school
system, would like to address your assertion that "public schools do not
teach critical thinking skills."
She will do so under my e-mail address in a separate post in the next
few hours. She is a reading specialist with a master's degree plus more than
60 additional credits, and is an expert in educating children (unlike most
Waldorf teachers, who often know little more than how to "meditate" on their
charges or what grains to serve on which day of the week.)
Dottie, if you ever bothered to take a few hours to read through the
critics' list archives, you would quickly see that I did not come onto this
list asserting that Waldorf education is lacking and that the schools are
little more than spiritual science training academies (though I know that to
be true now.)
In fact, I came on toeing the good-Waldorf-parent line, defending the
non-education my child was receiving. It was only when my critical thinking
skills were engaged that I was forced to confront that reality.
Thanks to Dan and Debra, PLANS and this list was here for me at that
time. I will always be grateful.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 17:08:24 -0500
From: "Rainbow Bookstore Cooperative" (rbc supranet.com)
Subject: RE: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
Sune wrote:
) You are completely mistaken about my willingness to weigh different
) historical facts in judging the conducts of different anthroposophists
) during the 1900s'.
I'd be more convinced by this claim if you would take a moment to read some
of the critiques that other anthroposophists have put forward of your
position on anthroposophist behavior during the Nazi period. Here's a good
one to start with:
http://www.kunstturm.de/lohengrin/kalisch_nationalsozialismus.htm
How about if you read that essay, or one of those I mentioned two days ago,
and then see if you still hold the same position?
) What seriously does piss me is the very lighthearted, careless and often
) cocky way you mix history with lies and untruths in your description of
) especially anthroposophy as such,
If "anthroposophy as such" were the same thing as "what Sune likes about
anthroposophy", then we could all stop arguing about it. Ah, wouldn't that
make things easier...
) as demonstrated by your fantasy
) construction of the content of 'Mission of Folk Souls' without having
) read it and based on your 'reliable' secondary sources in trying to make
) your thesis' plausible.
Methinks he doth protest too much. Since I have read that book, and since
others on this list have as well, it is easy for us to see that you and
Detlef have been misrepresenting its contents (that is, "lying about it" in
your terms) all along. On the question of anthroposophist behavior during
the Nazi period, there is ample room for competing interpretations and
arguments. On the somewhat less momentous question of whether Steiner talks
about root races and Aryans in that book, there is no such room for
conflicting interpretations; the words are right there in black and white.
) without most readers having any possibility whatsoever to know, realize
) and judge the extent of your untruthfulness, if not doing research on
) their own in a way that is beyond the possibilities of most, and making
) everything else you use and quote as 'sources' and say on the subject
) questionable in a way that does not seem clear to you.
Thanks to your labors, all readers of this exchange have a readily
accessible opportunity to consult Steiner's text, which you say you have
posted at:
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/Steiner/Folkspirits/Folkspirits.htm
Assuming you have not doctored the text, it isn't difficult for readers (if
indeed there are any who for some reason are still be interested in the
matter) to see for themselves what it says. No "research" required. As for
everything else that I say on the subject, I quite agree that skepticism is
appropriate, as it is on all controversial questions. I think you seriously
underestimate most people's ability to see through hogwash without special
training or detailed prior knowledge. Indeed, to judge from your last few
posts, you must take all the members of this list for fools. I hold a more
optimistic view.
Yours for skeptical inquiry,
Peter Staudenmaier
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 15:14:22 -0700
From: "Liz Reid&Errol Strelnikoff" (lizanderrol home.com)
Subject: The Green movement and the Green Party
Hi,
Both of these terms have come up on this list now and I am hoping that
someone who knows more about the Green movement, which predates the
Green Party by a half century or more, could clear things up. I would
be surprised if there is even a connection between the two.
I first heard of the Greens from a dance master and scholar named Dick
Crum. He was telling about the two women who were the first to create
folk dances for the new Israeli state. These women came from the
Green movement in turn of the century Germany. The ideas of this
movement seemed very similar to those of biodynamics and
anthroposophy.
Hearing about the Greens has made me very curious as to the
intellectual climate in Europe at the time of Steiner as it seems to
me that Steiner and the anthroposophists were just one of many
movements around. It seems to me that the only reason we still have
people following Steiner today is because he wrote so much down and he
founded schools.
I suspect that Steiner back in his day was only a minor character in a
very rich intellectual climate. I know that one very interesting
contemporary to Steiner was a man named Homer Lane. Homer Lane came
from the US to England and founded a place called the Little
Commonwealth, a school for juvinile delinquents. The young people
were given total freedom to run the place and they became very good at
it. Unfortunately for us Homer Lane was so busy working with children
that he never found the time to write very much. He did inspire
others however, including A.S. Niel the author of Summerhill and the
founder of the first free school in England over seventy years ago.
There is also the point that things that are written take on a life of
their own as they become interpreted by people according to their own
experience and not as they were originally intended. Once concepts
have been put to paper people understand them in a different way than
if they learn through experience or by working with people who have an
understanding. This concept is familiar to us as we have all heard
about the difference between book learning and experiential learning.
For many of us this is a reason why we choose/chose Steiner schools.
I see this dependence on what was written as a huge problem in Waldorf
education. The problem is compounded when what was written isn't
particularly coherent.
Liz Reid
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 17:18:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: The Green movement and the Green Party
Liz-
)
) I see this dependence on what was written as a huge
) problem in Waldorf
) education. The problem is compounded when what was
) written isn't
) particularly coherent.
)
Liz,
Have you read The Kingdom Of Childhood by Dr. Steiner?
I was looking for a quote yesterday and ended up
reading most of the book. It seems to me that Dr.
Steiner advocated a certain methodology yet it seems
from complaints on this list that much of what is in
that book was actually not practiced at their schools.
I also think that is a really good source that
expresses very clearly Dr. Steiners methods. I think
that if the parents on this list would have been
pointed to that book at the get-go they would not have
enrolled their child in Waldorf as he is very clear
about what Waldorf is.
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 17:42:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: thinking hearts? er, well ...
--- Lisa Ercolano
) My sister, who is a third grade teacher in our
) excellent county school
) system, would like to address your assertion that
) "public schools do not
) teach critical thinking skills."
dottie -
Well Lisa, I hope your sister isn't thinking that I am
beating up on teachers. I am not.
Teachers as far as I am concerned have my highest
respect than any other profession. I think what they
do is amazing. They are in the trenches with our
children and are doing the best they can with what
they have been given.
I think it is the system not the teachers that are at
fault. In the LA Times today there is an article
regarding this issue to a certain extent. These kids
are being taught the same things we were thirty years
ago. The same history the same math the same
everything. I mean it is ridiculous. Its like time is
standing still. This year it seems education is really
on the hearts and minds of the people and they
recognize change is needed on all fronts.
Now if you are lucky enough that you can afford to put
your child in a private school horray for you. Or
maybe you are lucky enough to live in an afluent
neighborhood where your taxes pay for the very best in
schools for your child, wonderful. However that is not
the norm. Not by a long shot.
Lisa -
) (unlike most
) Waldorf teachers, who often know little more than
) how to "meditate" on their
) charges or what grains to serve on which day of the
) week.)
dottie -
Oh I am sure you must be right Lisa. This is just
insulting to those teachers that truly do try to make
a difference in the lives of the children. So you
don't agree with the methodology so lets attack those
teachers. Good for you Lisa.
Lisa -
I came on toeing the
) good-Waldorf-parent line, defending the
) non-education my child was receiving. It was only
) when my critical thinking
) skills were engaged that I was forced to confront
) that reality.
dottie -
Lisa, have you read the Kingdom Of Childhood? Dr.
Steiner is very clear what he considers to be
important in education. You may not agree with it. But
he is very clear what his methodology is. There is no
hiding, in fact he goes on to say this:
"If, therefore, we are asked what the basis of a new
method of education should be, our answer is:
Anthroposophy must be that basis. But how many people
there are, even in our own circles, who try to
disclaim Anthroposophy as much as possible, and to
propagate an education without letting it be know that
Anthroposophy is behind it."
I mean he is pretty clear what his methodology is.
There is no hiding behind it. It is clear in this book
why he teaches what he does and what he feels is
appropriate for each year. You and others may not
agree with it, okay. Many here feel duped by not
knowing the basis of this methodology, okay. Its not
right for you and your family and others on this list.
Does it make it evil? Does it make it wrong?
It seems pretty clear to me why you and a few others
who have, what has been called 'gifted' children, in
their capacity to learn at an earlier age and also
excell, have realized that Waldorf is not for them. .
It is also clear that Waldorf is not about pushing
these 'gifted' children forward by changing their
methodology to fit the child. And fortunately it has
come to light that if you have a gifted child in this
or some other aspect Waldorf may not be the right
place. And then again it may depending on the parents
view of what is important to that particular family.
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 17:48:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Coherence
Debra-
A schooling system that
) intentionally disables a
) child from developing thinking and writing skills
) was the last of my
) desires. I wish they would have advertised this
) little quote on their
) brochure. I would have turned away on a dime.
)
dottie -
Dr. Steiner speaks of why he believes these writing
skills and reading skills are not first on his agenda
in the book The Kingdom Of Childhood. And he also goes
on to say how he recognizes that the students in
Waldorf are not on the same class level as others
schools in the public system. And when a child
transfers back it can be a set back for the child and
then of course the family he goes on to say in this
book.
And it is clear that you should have been made aware
of this methodology and yes I am sure you would not
have chosen this school for your child if you had. And
that is why we are all here right now.
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 17:53:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: anthros, Nazis, and us
Peter S.
If there are
) others on the list who have
) understood my posts in the same way Dottie has, I
) hope they will take it
) from me that I don't think the Waldorf movement is
) harboring cells of Nazis
) or that Steiner was personally responsible for
) Hitler's crimes. Thanks for
) adding a calmer tone to this debate,
)
dottie -
Thank you Peter, because yes it does seem that you are
saying that Dr. Steiner collaborated and that
Anthroposophist were duplicit in the War against the
Jews. At least now if any have understood it in the
same way I have, you have been very clear here.
Thank you,
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 18:07:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: anthros, Nazis, and us
--- earlyfire earthlink.net wrote:
) Dan et all:
) Here's an interesting differentiation which might
) make sense to ponder:
) Is there a difference in degree of certitude between
) a person who
) embraces a belief system and one who is able to come
) to experience what
) presents and, delivers first hand compelling
) self-evidence which founds
) and therefore validates a belief system?
)
dottie -
I think that is a beautiful point.
thank you for being able to write what I can not, it
seems.
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 22:09:58 -0400
From: Gary Bonhiver (gary goodwinter.com)
Subject: Re: The Green movement and the Green Party
on 5/5/01 8:18 PM, dottie zold at dottie_z yahoo.com wrote:
) Liz-
))
)) I see this dependence on what was written as a huge
)) problem in Waldorf
)) education. The problem is compounded when what was
)) written isn't
)) particularly coherent.
))
) Liz,
)
) Have you read The Kingdom Of Childhood by Dr. Steiner?
) I was looking for a quote yesterday and ended up
) reading most of the book. It seems to me that Dr.
) Steiner advocated a certain methodology yet it seems
) from complaints on this list that much of what is in
) that book was actually not practiced at their schools.
)
)
) I also think that is a really good source that
) expresses very clearly Dr. Steiners methods. I think
) that if the parents on this list would have been
) pointed to that book at the get-go they would not have
) enrolled their child in Waldorf as he is very clear
) about what Waldorf is.
)
) dottie
GARY:
Is this from the same "Kingdom of Childhood" that you are referring to?
"It is a very bad thing to be able to write early. Reading and writing as
we have them today are really not suited to the human being till a later age
-- the eleventh or twelfth year -- and the more a child is blessed with not
being able to read and write well before this age, the better it is for the
later years of life. A child who cannot write properly at thirteen or
fourteen . . . is not so hindered for later spiritual development as one who
early, at seven or eight years, can already read and write perfectly."
- Rudolf Steiner, Kingdom of Childhood: Introductory Talks on Waldorf
Education, Lecture 2, pp.26, 27. Hudson, NY: Anthroposophic Press, revised
translation 1995.
You can be certain that if parents on this list read THIS, coupled with an
understanding of Steiner's goals for promoting HIS vision of the spirit
world, they would not have chosen Waldorf.
...Gary
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6-May-2001 03:00:20 GMT
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: The Green movement and the Green Party
)
) GARY:
) Is this from the same "Kingdom of Childhood" that you are referring to?
)
cut - he quoted Dr. Steiner regarding the fact that he thinks reading
and writing should not come before a certain age.
)
) You can be certain that if parents on this list read THIS, coupled with
) an
) understanding of Steiner's goals for promoting HIS vision of the spirit
) world, they would not have chosen Waldorf.
dottie -
That's the whole point Gary. He has made it very clear in his writings
what his methodology is. Very clear. No hidden agenda. So PLANS has a
problem with Waldorf not being upfront about Dr. Steiners methodology.
Good, they should be irate about that. However to malign the man and his
work due to the fact that a school today did not tell them of the
methodology is wrong in my mind. His writings are there for all to see.
It is the school itself that needs to be clear.
here's a quote regarding teeth change. pg. 7
"It is only when you have the right conception of human life as a
connected whole that you come to realize how different from each other
the various ages are. Children before the first teeth are shed are very
different beings from what they become afterwards. Of course, you must
not intepret his in crudely formed judgements, but if you are capable of
making finer distincitons in life, you can observce that chidlren are
quite different before and after the change of teeth."
Does this not make sense to anyone?
regarding sports as was the topic earlier.
It is emphatically not the aim of the Waldorf school method to surpress
these teachings. They have their place simply because they play a great
part in English life, and children should grow up into life. Only please
do not fall prey to the illusion that there is any other meaning in it
than this, namely, that we ought not to make children strangers to their
world. It is an error to believe that sports are of tremendous value in
development. They are not of great value in development.
goes on -
One should not meet with philistine opposition what may possibly be
philistine itself.
Throughout this book he is very clear about his methodology. You may not
agree with his methods however as is claimed by many here, he has not
been dishonest and has not looked to decieve anyone. If he was here
today I have no doubt he would be very clear that all prospective
parents be aware of what his ideas are for the children who will attend.
dottie
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 22:31:56 -0700
From: soma (soma mwt.net)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier -
III/III
dottie zold wrote:
)
) Are you aware that he is considered the founder of
) this biodynamic farming here in the U.S. I have run
) into so many people who have no clue about his
) spiritual leanings but totally support and utilize his
) biodynamic methods? Did you know that?
Sharon:
I'm told Whole Foods has a section for Biodynamic Food, including
Biodynamic Raisins in full color boxes, (which I've seen.) I used to
think that Biodynamic farming was just an organic compost formula for
farmers. At Whole Foods an explanation sign "educates" customers, it
says something like.....food produced with a special European organic
fertilizer...something like that. Same old, same old Anthroposophic
"outer appearance of things". I think that PLANS activists should
educate the public at Whole Foods. Maybe Peter and I (and others) could
hand out information at the Madison store.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 20:57:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
)
) Sharon:
) I'm told Whole Foods has a section for Biodynamic
) Food, including
) Biodynamic Raisins in full color boxes, (which I've
) seen.) I used to
) think that Biodynamic farming was just an organic
) compost formula for
) farmers. At Whole Foods an explanation sign
) "educates" customers, it
) says something like.....food produced with a special
) European organic
) fertilizer...something like that. Same old, same old
) Anthroposophic
) "outer appearance of things". I think that PLANS
) activists should
) educate the public at Whole Foods. Maybe Peter and
) I (and others) could
) hand out information at the Madison store.
)
)
dottie -
European organic fertilizer, does it really say that?
What ever happened to made in America organic fertizer
:)
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 20:38:24 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Waldorf book list for small children
When I went to amazon.com looking for a book, there was an icon on
the entry page for "My Favorite Waldorf-inspired Books." I'm
wondering if everybody is seeing this, or if Amazon is targeting it
to me because it (presumably a piece of software) has learned that I
buy Waldorf books. Anyway, a nice cross-section (long URL may need
repair):
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/listmania/list-browse/-/G8K35HL8XVPR/ref=pd_gw_lmq_2/103-6424161-2464605
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 21:32:02 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier
- III/III
Dottie, you wrote,
)Well I know I can say he was an enlightened person.
)And how I can tell that is that his works lead me to
)the Truth within my self.
That it feels true. This is the opposite to the rational or
scientific attitude, which is to recognize that there is no sure
relationship between heartfelt conviction and the state of the real
(shared) world.
)What he has written is
)actually how it is as far as I have been able to tell
)up until this point in my search.
Hang on, then, it's could be a bumpy ride from this point on.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 22:24:04 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: thinking hearts? er, well ...
Dottie, you wrote to Lisa,
)Oh I am sure you must be right Lisa. This is just
)insulting to those teachers that truly do try to make
)a difference in the lives of the children. So you
)don't agree with the methodology so lets attack those
)teachers. Good for you Lisa.
Lisa isn't just looking for an excuse to smear someone in Waldorf.
We've seen lots of evidence of two bad trends that converge most
unfortunately for significant numbers of Waldorf children.
The first bad thing is the Waldorf teacher training. It's an
incompetent system, based as it is on the closed world of
Anthroposophy and on ignoring everything that's been learned about
child development since 1925.
The second bad thing is that spiritual movements attract a
disproportionate number of people with personal problems. Given that
the Waldorf movement is desperate, and I suspect very few are
rejected, Waldorf faculties have been known to display a vivid array
of nuts and crazies. Not the exemplary people with lives that Steiner
said he wanted, BTW.
I'm sure that many capable people make it through the system; indeed
I thought my son's Waldorf teacher was a good teacher. But the
convergence of airheads and vague training produces a
disproportionate number of dysfunctional teachers.
(snip)
)I mean he is pretty clear what his methodology is.
)There is no hiding behind it. It is clear in this book
)why he teaches what he does and what he feels is
)appropriate for each year. You and others may not
)agree with it, okay. Many here feel duped by not
)knowing the basis of this methodology, okay. Its not
)right for you and your family and others on this list.
)Does it make it evil? Does it make it wrong?
Hey, I got an idea. Ask prospective parents to submit a book report
on The Kingdom of Childhood.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 08:08:33 +0100
From: "mypostbox.formail" (mypostbox.formail virgin.net)
Subject: Re: Coherence
Dottie wrote:
)
) I am sure you would not
) have chosen this school for your child if you had. And
) that is why we are all here right now.
dottie, I can see why a duped/critcal waldorf parent would want to be on
this list, but I'm curious why you are here?
curious bea
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 271
-- Topica Digest --
RE: The Green movement and the Green Party
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: anthros, Nazis, and us
By winters_diana hotmail.com
RE: Back to teeth (was: The Green movement and the Green Party)
By lizanderrol home.com
Re: reading etc. (was: anthros, Nazis, and us)
By lizanderrol home.com
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
By dottie_z yahoo.com
RE: Sports etc. (Was: The Green movement and the Green Party)
By lizanderrol home.com
RE: Assumptions (Was: On your seriously careless blah blah blah)
By lizanderrol home.com
Re: thinking hearts? er, well ...
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: Coherence
By dottie_z yahoo.com
RE: The Green movement and the Green Party
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: anthros, Nazis, and us
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: thinking hearts? er, well ...
By mypostbox.formail virgin.net
RE: Assumptions (Was: On your seriously careless blah blah blah)
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: thinking hearts? er, well ...
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: thinking hearts? er, well ...
By mypostbox.formail virgin.net
RE: The Green movement and the Green Party
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: Coherence
By snell netshel.net
RE: Sports etc. (Was: The Green movement and the Green Party)
By snell netshel.net
RE: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
By rbc supranet.com
Re: reading etc. (was: anthros, Nazis, and us)
By soma mwt.net
Re: anthros, Nazis, and us
By soma mwt.net
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier -
III/III
By soma mwt.net
RE: The Green movement and the Green Party
By rbc supranet.com
RE: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
By rbc supranet.com
RE: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: anthros, Nazis, and us
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier -
III/III
By soma mwt.net
Re: anthros, Nazis, and us
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: reading etc. (was: anthros, Nazis, and us)
By winters_diana hotmail.com
RE: Assumptions (Was: On your seriously careless blah blah blah)
By snell netshel.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 11:49:56 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: The Green movement and the Green Party
Dottie posted:
)here's a quote regarding teeth change. pg. 7
)"It is only when you have the right conception of human life as a
)connected whole that you come to realize how different from each other
)the various ages are. Children before the first teeth are shed are very
)different beings from what they become afterwards. Of course, you must
)not intepret his in crudely formed judgements, but if you are capable of
)making finer distincitons in life, you can observce that chidlren are
)quite different before and after the change of teeth."
)Does this not make sense to anyone?
Just want to comment, without getting into whether Steiner was honest or
it's just that the schools aren't, that, no, this doesn't make any sense.
Dottie, I don't think you have children?
Honestly, does anyone else notice that children, their own or anyone else's
- I know an awful lot of children! - are "quite different" before and after
the change of teeth? It's absurd. Children are individuals, who change in
different ways at different rates. Change of teeth isn't some overnight
thing - it goes on for *years* with some kids. Of course they are changing
throughout this period. They are always changing. I could only have believed
*before* having a child go through the change of teeth, that this had some
mystical significance. You could just as easily pick *any* sign of change -
they are very much different when they are 2 feet tall from when they are 4
feet tall, right?
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 12:25:29 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: anthros, Nazis, and us
Somebody wrote (sorry, I've lost the post and don't have your name):
)Is there a difference in degree of certitude between a person who
)embraces a belief system and one who is able to come to experience what
)presents and, delivers first hand compelling self-evidence which founds
)and therefore validates a belief system?
I am bored by anthroposophists' claims that they see spiritual reality and
the rest of us don't. It's obnoxious, and puffy language doesn't improve
it. How do you know what others have experienced?
And then Waldorf insists that children too must have these cookie-cutter
spiritual experiences: angel- and gnome-sightings, color "experiences,"
healing through eurythmy etc. None of it has much to do with spirituality,
to me.
Actions speak louder than words. I think it would be a very spiritual thing
to run a decent school. Teaching kids to read and write is a noble,
spiritual calling. Trying to make the kids stay "porous" to have spiritual
inspiration, virtually guarantees something very dysfunctional, and not at
all spiritual I don't think, in place of education.
)Whoever adheres to the first operates out of a conspicuous limitation,
Yes, thank goodness. Perhaps knowing one's limitations is a big spiritual
achievement?
)confined by the corral of inherited 'hand-me-down thoughts', while who
)seeks the second, not content to remain bereft of the challenge of
)confronting terror in order to remain porous and vulnerable to
)discovery, seeks to embrace and assimilate "Graphic Spiritual
)Material", "Terra Incognita"
Give me the "hand-me-down thoughts" of the ages any day over the mumblings
of some guru. Waldorf might focus a little more on those "hand me down
thoughts" (oh say, literature, history, geography), and a little less on
spiritual "porousness," and have fewer dissatisfied customers.
I guess this is another way for me to say, yet again: let the kids read
books . . . I would be willing to accept that reading would leave them less
time, and less receptivity, for "graphic spiritual material."
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 09:29:59 -0700
From: "Liz Reid&Errol Strelnikoff" (lizanderrol home.com)
Subject: RE: Back to teeth (was: The Green movement and the Green Party)
) here's a quote regarding teeth change. pg. 7
)
) "It is only when you have the right conception of human life as a
) connected whole that you come to realize how different from
) each other
) the various ages are. Children before the first teeth are
) shed are very
) different beings from what they become afterwards. Of
) course, you must
) not intepret his in crudely formed judgements, but if you
) are capable of
) making finer distincitons in life, you can observce that
) chidlren are
) quite different before and after the change of teeth."
)
) Does this not make sense to anyone?
No, I must admit it doesn't. And if Waldorf teachers do find it makes
sense then how can they justify putting a child who has not lost any
teeth in a class with kids who have lost several? I also wonder what
would have happened in the case of my brother who didn't loose any
teeth until he was ten? My whole family still had milk teeth into our
late teens.
In the end I think it is only used when it is convenient for whatever
the teacher already has planned and nobody really takes it seriously.
I don't either, however, like the teachers I am trying to use it to
further my own ends. Hahaha.
Liz
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 09:29:54 -0700
From: "Liz Reid&Errol Strelnikoff" (lizanderrol home.com)
Subject: Re: reading etc. (was: anthros, Nazis, and us)
) I am bored by anthroposophists' claims that they see
) spiritual reality and
) the rest of us don't. It's obnoxious, and puffy language
) doesn't improve
) it. How do you know what others have experienced?
This kind of attitude is what prompted my question regarding Waldorf
teacher training. I am flabbergasted that two years at a teacher's
college is supposed to prepare teachers to see spiritual reality (I
had used the term "enlightened"). I find this so simplistic. I am
constantly amazed that people I know are not fools do not find this a
problem. I think that they are just so desperate to find an
alternative to the testing frenzy of public schools, not to mention
the six-year-old Britney Spears look-alikes.
) And then Waldorf insists that children too must have these
) cookie-cutter
) spiritual experiences: angel- and gnome-sightings, color
) "experiences,"
) healing through eurythmy etc. None of it has much to do
) with spirituality,
) to me.
It has even less to do with spirituality when it is set to the
specific times like, it's eleven o'clock, it's time for Eurythmy. Or
it's ten o'clock it must be time for painting. What can be spiritual
about following the clock? If any of you are familiar with Pavlov's
writings these methods of Steiner's seem to follow a very specific
purpose, i.e. preparation for indoctrination. But then so are the
methods used in most classrooms. As I pointed out though on the
Waldorf list there is a difference between training kids mechanically
to obey the teacher, as happens in most schools, and the much more
subtle training that goes on in a Waldorf school with the songs and
stories and extraneous rythms. These are carefully designed to work
on a child's nervous system and are almost impossible to reverse once
they have been implanted.
) Actions speak louder than words. I think it would be a very
) spiritual thing
) to run a decent school. Teaching kids to read and write is a noble,
) spiritual calling. Trying to make the kids stay "porous" to
) have spiritual
) inspiration, virtually guarantees something very
) dysfunctional, and not at
) all spiritual I don't think, in place of education.
Here I cannot agree. The ends do not justify the means! It should be
the other way around. It is actually very difficult to stop children
from learning to read and write if the environment is rich enough.
The emphasis on reading and writing in most schools is exactly why so
many people choose Waldorf schools. There really are other things to
learning.
But I do agree that I do not trust some person trained at a Steiner
college for two years, full of the belief in their own rightness, to
have anything to do with my child's spiritual inspiration. I am much
more worried about the damage they could cause.
) Give me the "hand-me-down thoughts" of the ages any day
) over the mumblings
) of some guru. Waldorf might focus a little more on those
) "hand me down
) thoughts" (oh say, literature, history, geography), and a
) little less on
) spiritual "porousness," and have fewer dissatisfied customers.
Again I don't think that either is necessarily the best option.
Paying attention to a child's spiritual growth must come after the
physical and emotional and, in my opinion, is no business of a
school's. I realise that many people do want their children schooled
in spirituality (seems like an oxymoron to me) but in a public school
this has to be left out.
) I guess this is another way for me to say, yet again: let
) the kids read
) books . . . I would be willing to accept that reading would
) leave them less
) time, and less receptivity, for "graphic spiritual material."
Some kids want to read at early ages and some don't. I am not for
pushing children to do either. I also feel that reading is such an
easy thing for healthy children to do that to hold it up as more
important than socialising or building or playing or whatever else
children can do is not particularly useful.
Liz
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 09:31:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
Dan -
) That it feels true. This is the opposite to the
) rational or
) scientific attitude, which is to recognize that
) there is no sure
) relationship between heartfelt conviction and the
) state of the real
) (shared) world.
dottie -
But see Dan in here lies the mystery. Dr. Steiner
works do lead to a knowing of the spirit. It is true
for I have experienced what many people including many
Anthroposophists have not. I imagine it comes from
something prior to this lifetime. Which I know is not
the foundation you give any kind of credulity, however
Dr. Steiner was right. There is something more than
this life and if one looks for it and is open to it
and has prepared his/her mind for it including the
moral aspects of life, the mystery will show itself.
Einstein speaks of the unifying field being LOVE. The
mystery of all...and that is what I call the Language
Of The World...I have been searching for it
consciously for five years now. And I have found
through the methods Dr. Steiner put forth he knew of
what he spoke. There is no doubt for me. None.
Dan -
) Hang on, then, it's could be a bumpy ride from this
) point on.
)
dottie -
You are right. It is a very bumpy ride.
Happy Sunday to you,
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 09:37:58 -0700
From: "Liz Reid&Errol Strelnikoff" (lizanderrol home.com)
Subject: RE: Sports etc. (Was: The Green movement and the Green Party)
) regarding sports as was the topic earlier.
)
) It is emphatically not the aim of the Waldorf school method
) to surpress
) these teachings. They have their place simply because they
) play a great
) part in English life, and children should grow up into
) life. Only please
) do not fall prey to the illusion that there is any other
) meaning in it
) than this, namely, that we ought not to make children
) strangers to their
) world. It is an error to believe that sports are of
) tremendous value in
) development. They are not of great value in development.
I missed the earlier topic so I am sorry if this is repetitive for
everyone but I am interested in what WE has against games like soccer?
By the way, from the quote above I would think that Steiner is saying
that sports are okay as long as they are a part in the cultural life
of the community. He just doesn't think that they should hold as much
importance as many people attach to them, which may be a result of his
cultural heritage.
In fact what Steiner says about not making children strangers to their
world is absolutely right on! I cannot see people can justify
eliminating media and still hold true to what Steiner wants, i.e. DO
NOT MAKE CHILDREN STRANGERS TO THEIR WORLD!
Liz
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 09:48:22 -0700
From: "Liz Reid&Errol Strelnikoff" (lizanderrol home.com)
Subject: RE: Assumptions (Was: On your seriously careless blah blah blah)
) Dr. Steiner was right. There is something more than
) this life and if one looks for it and is open to it
) and has prepared his/her mind for it including the
) moral aspects of life, the mystery will show itself.
On what do you base these assumptions?
) Einstein speaks of the unifying field being LOVE. The
) mystery of all...and that is what I call the Language
) Of The World...I have been searching for it
) consciously for five years now. And I have found
) through the methods Dr. Steiner put forth he knew of
) what he spoke. There is no doubt for me. None.
When one is most certain, that is the time to doubt. I doubt Einstein
would disagree.
Liz
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 09:49:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: thinking hearts? er, well ...
Dan -
) Lisa isn't just looking for an excuse to smear
) someone in Waldorf.
) We've seen lots of evidence of two bad trends that
) converge most
) unfortunately for significant numbers of Waldorf
) children.
)
dottie -
I agree with you she is not. But making generalized
statements like they know little more than meditation
and what grain to use is really not even remotely
true.
Dan -
) The first bad thing is the Waldorf teacher training.
) It's an
) incompetent system, based as it is on the closed
) world of
) Anthroposophy and on ignoring everything that's been
) learned about
) child development since 1925.
You may very well be right on this. Even Dr. Steiner
in The Kingdom Of Childhood states that one must keep
up with what is going on in the word around them in
regards to new findings. However it may be that some
or many of the schools do not take new findings into
consideration.
Dan -
) The second bad thing is that spiritual movements
) attract a
) disproportionate number of people with personal
) problems.
dottie -
I do not think that is true Dan. That is a judgement
it would seem on your part. And what kind of personal
problems are you speaking of?
Its like saying 'oh i grew up in a dysfunctional
family. The whole world has grown up in dysfunctional
families in one way or another.
Dan -
Given that
) the Waldorf movement is desperate, and I suspect
) very few are
) rejected, Waldorf faculties have been known to
) display a vivid array
) of nuts and crazies. Not the exemplary people with
) lives that Steiner
) said he wanted, BTW.
dottie -
)From what I have read recently of the Waldorf
Education there is no desperation about it at all. You
may like to think so but it seems not to be reality.
PLANS is bringing up a very good point that people
need to know what they are enrolling their children
into and it will serve Waldorf Education to be
accountable to the Truth.
And like all schools, teachers have personal lives
like all the rest of us. Not everyone is suited to a
particular job. Better to find out earlier than later.
I mean you have gay people, straight people, artistic
people, Christians, Muslims, Atheists, Agnostics,
Catholics, Alcoholics, Jewish, Dreamers, New Agers,
Fatalists, happy people, sad people, mean people
suicidal people, teaching our children. The varieties
are absolutely astounding.
Dan -
) Hey, I got an idea. Ask prospective parents to
) submit a book report
) on The Kingdom of Childhood.
)
dottie -
My point with The Kingdom of Childhood book is that it
is very clear what his methods are. He is very
truthful and right in your face as to why he believes
what he does. I think the book shows that one of the
main points of some discussion regarding his honesty
and hiding things is mute. It is Waldorf that needs to
be upfront. Dr. Steiner was.
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 09:53:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Coherence
) dottie, I can see why a duped/critcal waldorf parent
) would want to be on
) this list, but I'm curious why you are here?
) curious bea
)
dottie -
I guess why I am here is because I needed to know that
some of the people who study Dr. Steiner and consider
themselves teachers are not doing him justice by not
being upfront about his methods for Waldorf Education.
I guess secondly it is because I also needed to hear
how people can look at his work as being racist and
see from what point they are coming from.
Lastly I guess I needed to hear how incoherent I am in
my writing and also learn how to be in a discussion
and have my feelings hurt and not run away.
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 10:04:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: The Green movement and the Green Party
Diana -
) Just want to comment, without getting into whether
) Steiner was honest or
) it's just that the schools aren't, that, no, this
) doesn't make any sense.
) Dottie, I don't think you have children?
)
dottie -
It doesn't make sense to you that at about the time a
child loses his/her teeth changes come about? Have you
observed children before and after this age to be able
to make an informed judgement of it. Do you think that
because I do not have children that I can't observe
this in all the children of the kids I work with and
also my precious neices and nephews?
And as far as not having children, this bears no
relevance on my love and observance of them. I adore
children I celebrate them I love them. Each child that
stands before me, in my eyes are a gift to me and I am
so very thankful for their presence.
Diana -
) Honestly, does anyone else notice that children,
) their own or anyone else's
) - I know an awful lot of children! - are "quite
) different" before and after
) the change of teeth? It's absurd. Children are
) individuals, who change in
) different ways at different rates. Change of teeth
) isn't some overnight
) thing - it goes on for *years* with some kids.
dottie -
So you think that his meaning is that EXACTLY when a
child loses a tooth is when it all happens. Have you
even read his work or just the few snippets here and
there regarding the change. Dr. Steiner was not a
stupid man by any means. Not by a long shot. Of course
he means around the time of the average change. Come
on Diana.
Diana -
I
) could only have believed
) *before* having a child go through the change of
) teeth, that this had some
) mystical significance.
dottie -
Mystical has nothing to do about it and if that is
what you get from his comments from this you have
misunderstood him. His is the study of the human
being. The whole kit and kaboodle, seen and unseen.
All things in his eyes also relate to the spiritual
side of human nature. No mystisicm about it. Knowledge
is the word, knowledge.
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 10:15:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: anthros, Nazis, and us
Diana -
) I am bored by anthroposophists' claims that they see
) spiritual reality and
) the rest of us don't.
dottie -
Diana, they are specifically looking for spiritual
reality. That is there study. It doesn't seem to be
your study. I could be bothered time and time again
when someone says that I don't get the meanings of
things and so on. Well the truth is that I never
looked to see how my writings were understood or not
understood probably is more like it. So now I am
looking to be understood (not clear I know but the
best I can do at this time).
And if someone says they are more spiritual than you
and that you don't see it # $% them.
Diana -
It's obnoxious, and puffy
) language doesn't improve
) it. How do you know what others have experienced?
dottie -
Right you can't . It's not possible. And it is
arrogant. And it is arrogant on the other side also to
assume that I haven't seen it because you haven't.
Diana -
)
) And then Waldorf insists that children too must have
) these cookie-cutter
) spiritual experiences: angel- and gnome-sightings,
) color "experiences,"
) healing through eurythmy etc. None of it has much to
) do with spirituality,
) to me.
)
dottie -
I think it is just opening people up to the
possibilities of things unseen around us.
Diana -
) Actions speak louder than words. I think it would be
) a very spiritual thing
) to run a decent school. Teaching kids to read and
) write is a noble,
) spiritual calling.
dottie -
You are absolutely right Diana. However in Waldorf
schools they put those things as a secondary versus a
primary. They think that sparking the imagination is
more important in the earlier years than
intellectualism. You may not agree, okay. It doesn't
make it wrong. However, and I always feel that I must
say this although I have said it a million times,
Waldorf must be very clear as to what their methods
are and when things considered to be the norm in
others schools will be taught.
Diana )
) ) Give me the "hand-me-down thoughts" of the ages
any
) day over the mumblings
) of some guru. Waldorf might focus a little more on
) those "hand me down
) thoughts" (oh say, literature, history, geography),
) and a little less on
) spiritual "porousness," and have fewer dissatisfied
) customers.
dottie -
Well Waldorf, if it follows Dr. Steiner, looks at the
spiritual history of things. The spiritual moving
along with the physical as the ages transpired.
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 18:21:42 +0100
From: "mypostbox.formail" (mypostbox.formail virgin.net)
Subject: Re: thinking hearts? er, well ...
dottie wrote:
) From what I have read recently of the Waldorf
) Education there is no desperation about it at all.
in the UK there certainley was a desperation
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 10:22:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Assumptions (Was: On your seriously careless blah blah blah)
dottie -
) ) Dr. Steiner was right. There is something more
) than
) ) this life and if one looks for it and is open to
) it
) ) and has prepared his/her mind for it including the
) ) moral aspects of life, the mystery will show
) itself.
)
) Liz
) On what do you base these assumptions?
dottie -
My own personal spiritual awakenings. In regards to
others I have seen through my friends, who are opening
up to what is happening to me, their spiritual growth
and understanding of the world around them. It is
pretty amazing when one alignes oneself with grace and
love for all.
Liz -
)
) When one is most certain, that is the time to doubt.
) I doubt Einstein
) would disagree.
)
dottie -
I agree with you one hundred percent. My no doubt
inspires me to go even further in my knowledge of the
unseen worlds.
thanks,
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 10:23:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: thinking hearts? er, well ...
--- "mypostbox.formail" (mypostbox.formail virgin.net)
wrote:
)
) dottie wrote:
) ) From what I have read recently of the Waldorf
) ) Education there is no desperation about it at all.
)
) in the UK there certainley was a desperation
)
)
dottie -
Yes if you are speaking of Michael Hall I would have
to say that they do seem to have some serious problems
going on.
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 18:26:56 +0100
From: "mypostbox.formail" (mypostbox.formail virgin.net)
Subject: Re: thinking hearts? er, well ...
) dottie -
)
) Yes if you are speaking of Michael Hall I would have
) to say that they do seem to have some serious problems
) going on.
)
) I wasnt just talking about Michael Hall, there are very similar problems at
the other waldorf schools
)
) __________________________________________________
) Do You Yahoo!?
) Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
) http://auctions.yahoo.com/
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 17:29:38 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: The Green movement and the Green Party
Dottie-
)It doesn't make sense to you that at about the time a
)child loses his/her teeth changes come about?
It makes sense to me that children change a lot as they grow up. There isn't
any reason to think losing teeth *causes* or is an indicator for any other
kind of change, like reading readiness, as Waldorf educators claim. As I
said, they are getting taller and wider at the same time, their minds are
developing, their experience of the world is expanding. None of these things
*cause* the other things just because lots of changes are "coming about."
)Have you observed children before and after this age to be able
)to make an informed judgement of it.
Yes.
)Have you even read his work or just the few snippets here and
)there regarding the change.
I've read many volumes of Steiner, virtually everything written for teachers
and some of the wilder stuff too. Several years ago, I was planning to
become a Waldorf teacher.
)Of course he means around the time of the average change. Come
)on Diana.
If he means "around the time," then why do Waldorf teachers include change
of teeth as a first grade readiness criterion? What's wrong with "around age
6"? Isn't it the same thing? Again, what have the teeth got to do with
anything?
)No mystisicm about it. Knowledge is the word, knowledge.
Well, if you look to Steiner for "knowledge" explaining how teeth indicate
readiness for first grade, there isn't anything there, Dottie.
"Change of teeth" is supposed to indicate the birth of the etheric body per
Steiner. The physical body is supposed to be done shaking off inherited
influences. Remember somebody recently posted about how all the cells in the
body replace themselves in seven years? A pretty theory that has no
relevance to when an individual child is interested in reading or able to
learn. Sorry, but it just doesn't have any connection to a person's teeth .
. . .
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 10:58:43 -0700
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: Coherence
)Lastly I guess I needed to hear how incoherent I am in
)my writing and also learn how to be in a discussion
)and have my feelings hurt and not run away.
)
)dottie
Debra:
This list is not for the faint hearted, is it? We should put a warning
label where people can read it before joining.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 11:00:34 -0700
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: RE: Sports etc. (Was: The Green movement and the Green Party)
)I missed the earlier topic so I am sorry if this is repetitive for
)everyone but I am interested in what WE has against games like soccer?
)
Dan posted this to the WC list some time ago. Looks like a re-post is timely.
****
[From Albert Magnusen, April 19, 1999]
Steiner did have quite a bit to say about sports. One of the most
poinant things that he said was that " the excessive pursuit of sport is
Darwinism in action." By that he meant that when sport becomes an
obsession, which it is today, especially in most Western countries, and,
frankly nearly in all "3rd World" countries, too, it leads to the
beastialization of the human being. It emphasizes the physical
aspects--strength, reaction, muscle-mass, agility, etc.--and leaves the
effect on the soul entirely out of the picture. Steiner was emphatic
about the effect of movement upon the developing soul. That is why
movement is so important in the lower grades in Waldorf Schools. It is
the basis of all learning--but it is ensouled, rhythmic movement,
permeated with the imagination and ideals that are fitting to the
nobility of the human spirit.
[Got that? The way -we- do it is -holy-, the way others do it is
"bestialization".]
In fact he was so concerned about it that he indicated that sports
would, given the increasing devotion of its adherents, take the place of
religion. That in as much as people had lost sight of the spiritual
world, that is to say, of their own spirits and souls, of their earthly
destinies and tasks and, ultimately, the source of their Beings , and
had become thoroughly enmeshed in the delusion of the exclusivity of the
material world in life, they would replace it with a caricature or many
caricatures in their shadow existence. The heroes that are held up for
children today by adults are a far cry from the mythic heroes of past
cultures.
[The mythic heroes of past cultures were often genocidal maniacs.
Magnusen has a very Romantic view of the past.]
The ideals that are vaunted before youth in the images on TV
and the screen as well as those on the playing field denigrate the high
destiny and heritage of humanity. One could say that there is no moral,
no spiritual ideaI. Ultimately, repeated by player after player, coach
after coach, it is survival of the fittest. Such is a symptom of the
materialistic delusion and attendant egotism of our times.
[He ignores the American cultural convention that sports heroes are
supposed to act as role models for youth, the hard work that most do
to be just that, and the valuable moral lessons when sports heroes
fall from public grace because of personal failings.]
Still and all, Steiner did express that sports had their place,
especially for those who experienced the soul-killing drudgery of factory
work, but he warned against mere physical activity for its own sake,
hence the development of Bothmer gymnastics versus mechanical
calesthenics, hence the development of Eurythmy which brings to bear in
human movement, life-forces and soul-gestures, so that the mechanics are
motivated and permeated by the spirit.
[Bothmer gymnastics is a system used only in Waldorf. I'd like to
know more about it.]
People need to realize that Waldorf Education is not simply a warm,
loving, caring, artsy alternative to modern pedagogy. It is the midwife
to higher consciousness, to the embryonic Imaginative Clairvoyance that
is beginning to bud in human beings after a long, agonizing (but
necessary) dark night of the soul that hidden the face of the Divine for
centuries.
[Priceless! Thank you for revealing the true religious nature of
Waldorf education. "The midwife to higher consciousness" goes into my
quotations database.]
There is nothing in human life that does not have spiritual
import and consequences, that either leads the soul heavenward or
earthward, and thus all things, including sports and games, must be
scrutinized in that regard.
[Ignoring the "heavenward or earthward" part, I agree with this. "We
have no art, we do everything as well as we can."]
Rudolf Kischnic, Jamin McMillan, and more recently, Kim
Brooking-Payne, have taught and/or written on the subject. I highly
recommend their books to any serious student or concerned parent.
They variously address the nature of games, martial arts, ballet and
so forth from the point of view of its expression of and effect upon
the human soul.
[Anybody familiar with these authors, can you summarize?]
Every single thing that we do--in work, sport, play, even fashion,
etc.--is a symptom of the soul's condition and longing. Think
esoterically.
Warmly,
Albert
[posted by Dan Dugan, copy to Magnusen]
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 13:09:11 -0500
From: "Rainbow Bookstore Cooperative" (rbc supranet.com)
Subject: RE: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
dottie zold wrote:
) Okay Mr. Peter, you want to say that Dr. Steiner
) developed a biodynamic farming initiative and the
) GREEN PARTY liked what he came up with and they chose
) to incorporate his learnings with their own.
No. The Green Party in Germany was founded in 1979. I said that Steiner was
an important influence on the green wing of the Nazi Party, founded sixty
years earlier. The "green wing" of the Nazis and the Green Party are two
very different things. The Nazis, including their "green wing", were on the
far right end of the political spectrum, while the Green Party is still more
or less on the left, certainly from a U.S. perspective.
) Are you aware that he is considered the founder of
) this biodynamic farming here in the U.S. I have run
) into so many people who have no clue about his
) spiritual leanings but totally support and utilize his
) biodynamic methods? Did you know that?
Yes, I did know that. In my article on anthroposophy and ecofascism I wrote
about that very topic, addressing the U.S. as well as Germany. I also said
in that article that biodynamics is "an eminently sensible and ecologically
sound method of cultivation." I'm a fan of organic agriculture, and
biodynamics falls within that category. But what distinguishes biodynamics
from all other versions of organic agriculture is precisely its
anthroposophic component. I think you are right that many consumers of
biodynamic products don't know much about anthroposophy, but biodynamic
growers are by definition engaged in an anthroposophic activity.
) Peter -
) ) You might want to read
) ) the article on anthroposophy and ecofascism on the
) ) PLANS site; it goes into
) ) detail on this convergence.
)
) dottie -
)
) I did read your article.
I think you mean the other article, the one I co-wrote with Peter Zegers,
which you and I discussed on the list last month. The questions you're
asking now suggest that you haven't read the earlier ecofascism article.
That's okay, of course, I was just recommending it for more detail on the
connections between anthroposophy and the "green wing" of the Nazis.
) I have to say it was just a
) bunch of words to me. There was no insight. None. It
) just felt like someone trying to prove 'this thing' in
) a very abrupt circular way of inuendos that can not be
) really checked out. Oh it looks clean on paper but
) once you go to check the details it is almost
) impossible.
I'm sorry you don't find any insight in my writings. I don't know why you
found it impossible to check the details, or why you think I used innuendo.
Maybe you could give some specifics.
) Very interesting. It is in this article
) that I realized you have a hidden agenda and it does
) not serve the real purpose of plans. I mean even DAn
) call him a relatively benign leader...
You and I had a long exchange several weeks ago about my "agenda"; I think I
was very forthcoming in that exchange, and I patiently explained my own
political biases and how they affect my scholarship. You might not like my
"agenda", but it is hardly hidden. You may well be right that my writings
don't serve the real purpose of PLANS; I have no connection to PLANS, and
they put all sorts of articles on their website that present arguments from
many different perspectives. I get the sense that you think the point of my
argument is that Steiner was a bad person. That isn't the point of my
argument. Steiner was indeed a benign leader compared to some of the other
would-be spiritual saviors of his day. My concern is with the *ideas* he put
forward and the practical consequences of those ideas. I am not particularly
concerned with his personality.
) Peter S.
) There were also Nazis
) ) who had little connection
) ) to the green wing but were influenced by some of
) ) Steiner's ideas, such as
) ) Otto Ohlendorf, whom I mentioned yesterday, and
) ) Oswald Pohl, the chief of
) ) the concentration camp system.
)
)
) dottie -
)
) But the whole point is Peter, did they read of
) Steiners works and were influenced by them or did he
) directly go to them and show them how to anihilate
) millions of innocent people.
I don't think that is the point at all. Imagine that Hitler had been
assassinated in 1939, the Nazi regime crumbled, and the second world war and
the holocaust had never happened. The Nazis would still have represented a
political catastrophe of a nearly unique kind. The fact that so many
committed Nazis were drawn to anthroposophy in various ways tells us
something important about the doctrines of anthroposophy. There was no
similar affinity between, say, Jehovah's Witnesses or Quakers and a portion
of the Nazi leadership. There *was* a similar affinity between some
Catholics and Protestants and some Nazis (albeit for different reasons), and
that experience has lead many Catholics and Protestants (though not enough
of them, in my view) to re-examine their own faith communities in order to
understand how such collusion with barbarism was possible. This sort of
re-examination is still in the early stages among anthroposophists, at least
in a morally serious way.
) All of Steiner works
) speak of understanding and love and the importance of
) humanity...it does not jive with what you are trying
) to prove. And biodynamics being one of the
) issues...please...
I don't know what your remark about biodynamics means. As for "all of
Steiner's works", there are quite a few of those works that you haven't
read, so I wouldn't be so sure what they speak of. The ones that I've read
often mix talk of love and humanity with ugly xenophobic prejudices. Sharon
and I, as well as others, have posted a very large number of such texts to
this list. How do they jive with what you want to believe about Steiner?
) Well Peter at least we have Sune who would reccomend a
) book for people to look at and draw their conclusions.
I also appreciate Sune's contributions to this list, believe it or not, his
recent antics notwithstanding. But your remark about his recommending
Werner's book is puzzling, since I recommended the very same book a year and
a half ago in my first article, and cited it a half dozen times in my second
article, which you read last month. You also seem to have a hard time
recalling the numerous other books, articles, etc. that various critics have
recommended to the list since you joined it. I very much want people to look
at as much material as they can and draw their own conclusions. How did that
escape your attention?
) And just like in any group of people even here at
) PLANS we all have our own world philosophies. But to
) say Steiner was in collaboration with the
) exterminations of people is just plain untrue. And I
) suspect you know that.
Yes, I do indeed know that, if we mean the same thing by "collaboration".
How did you get the impression that I think Steiner personally participated
in the holocaust?
) Peter S.
) ) Steiner wasn't a collaborator himself, since he was
) ) dead.
)
) dottie -
)
) Well at least we can agree on something. However all
) your works do try to highlight the fact that he was an
) underground collaborator. That is your insinuations.
) To make a retreat from that is ridiculous on your
) part.
I think this seems like a retreat to you because you didn't understand my
argument in the first place. That might be my fault; you aren't the only
reader of my work on anthroposophy who reached the same conclusion. In my
first article I wrote: "The extensive intertwinement of anthroposophic
belief and practice with actually existing ecofascism should not be judged
as an instance of guilt by association. Rather it ought to be occasion to
reflect on the political susceptibilities of esoteric environmentalism." In
other words, I don't think it makes sense to blame Steiner personally
because some nasty people took his ideas and ran with them. I do think it
makes sense to take another look at those ideas in order to understand their
attractiveness to fascists. I also think we need to understand, or try to
understand, why quite a few anthroposophists were attracted to various
aspects of fascism.
) Peter S.
) Aside from the
) ) ones named above, the best known Nazis who were
) ) significantly influenced by
) ) Steiner were Hitler's deputy Rudolf Hess, Minister
) ) of Agriculture Walther
) ) Darre, and Reich Advocate for the Landscape Alwin
) ) Seifert.
)
)
) dottie -
)
) Oh JEEZ Peter...do you get what ruckus you brought up
) about the NAZIS and Dr. Steiner? Does anyone on this
) list realize you are speaking of A REGIME of
) biodynamics being the culprit? Hello is anyone
) listening to the leaders supposedly that Dr. Steiner
) influenced. Oh Jeez.
I don't understand what you're trying to say here. I almost get the
impression that you think anthroposophists and Nazis existed on different
planets, and that it would thus be absurd to even inquire whether the two
groups had anything to do with one another. I don't think that is a useful
approach to historical questions.
) And he is also influencing hundreds of thousands of
) farmers here in the US also.
That figure is much too high. Thousands, perhaps, although my best guess
would be in the hundreds. But you're certainly right that Steiner has had a
major influence in the alternative agriculture scene. The continuing
vitality of the biodynamic movement is one of the reasons I started
researching anthroposophy. It was primarily through biodynamics that the
"green wing" of the Nazis came into contact with anthroposophy.
) Well lets hope there is
) no war on this front less we have another Mr. Peter S.
) come to the rescue and share how ANTHROPOSOPHISTS are
) the culprits. Whew...
The culprits of what?
) Peter S.
) The more
) ) recent scholarship often focuses on particular
) ) aspects of the Nazis'
) ) adoption of Steiner's ideas;
)
) dottie -
)
) Okay your argument is becoming pretty clear and I do
) not believe you are right . The more I go on with your
) paper and explanations I can see what you are doing.
) You are blaming Steiner for the adaptation of work he
) brought forth in good faith. People adopting Steiners
) ideas. Okay. Now we have Christians who adopted
) Christs ideas only to go against the very ideal he
) sought to implant in the hearts and minds of our
) people.
A fine analogy. The important question, to my mind, is this: to what extent
were the various unappealing adoptions of Christian ideas (say, the crusades
or the inquisition) based on those ideas themselves, and to what extent were
they merely a misunderstanding of the ideas? Also, did some people who were
undoubtedly devout Christians go along with the unappealing actions? If
there is a meaningful relationship between the original ideas (and the
followers of those ideas) and the subsequent actions, then we ought to start
taking a good long look, and a critical look, at those ideas (and their
followers), no matter what the intentions of the people involved. I haven't
studied the history of Christianity in much detail, so I don't have a
well-formed opinion on that score. But I have studied the history of
anthroposophy, and that is how I reached the conclusions that you find so
unsettling.
) So Steiner puts out ideas of biodynamics and The Green
) Party adopts them.
No. The German Green Party has never paid much attention to biodynamics
(though they have focused on other versions of alternative and sustainable
agriculture). The "green wing" of the Nazi party, on the other hand, made
biodynamics a part of official state policy during the Third Reich.
) Okay and now they use them to do
) what? Okay must be Steiners fault that he came up with
) a very good biodynamic idea for our Earth and someone
) misuses it. Okay.
When bad things happen, it isn't always the "fault" of one particular
person. There are some good ideas in biodynamics, in my view, though there
are also a lot of silly ideas in it. I don't think it makes much sense to
either blame or praise Steiner for this. I think you're avoiding the real
question by relying on the term "misuse"; it isn't at all clear that the
"green" Nazis who enthusiastically took up biodynamic practices
misunderstood Steiner's teachings. More to the point, the leadership of the
German biodynamic movement in the 1930's actively cooperated with the Nazis
in numerous ways: they invited top Nazis to visit their biodynamic estates,
they solicited the participation of Nazi officials in joint projects, they
praised Hitler in the official journals of the biodynamic movement, they
wrote their own articles on biodynamics for official Nazi journals, they
offered to assist the SS in its plans for colonizing Eastern Europe, and
they systematically cultivated the good will of the "green wing" of the
Nazis in particular, as well as a range of other Nazi leaders who had little
to do with environmental affairs. When Himmler, otherwise no friend of
anthroposophy, established biodynamic plantations at several concentration
camps, he didn't have to twist any arms to get anthroposophists to work on
them. The head gardener at Weleda, Franz Lippert, asked of his own accord to
oversee the biodynamic plantation at Dachau. This isn't just a matter of a
few individuals making some stupid decisons, it's a pattern of mutual
cooperation that went on throughout the entire Nazi period. Somehow we need
to make sense of that record. Ignoring it won't make it go away. My writings
on anthroposophy and Nazism are an attempt to understand this history.
I hope that makes things clearer,
Peter Staudenmaier
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 13:19:15 -0700
From: soma (soma mwt.net)
Subject: Re: reading etc. (was: anthros, Nazis, and us)
Liz Reid&Errol Strelnikoff wrote:
)
) It has even less to do with spirituality when it is set to the
) specific times like, it's eleven o'clock, it's time for Eurythmy. Or
) it's ten o'clock it must be time for painting. What can be spiritual
) about following the clock?
Sharon:
Anthroposophists have a clock set to planetary influences therefore
their clock is "spiritual".
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 13:55:26 -0700
From: soma (soma mwt.net)
Subject: Re: anthros, Nazis, and us
dottie zold wrote:
)
) Diana -
) )
) ) And then Waldorf insists that children too must have
) ) these cookie-cutter
) ) spiritual experiences: angel- and gnome-sightings,
) ) color "experiences,"
) ) healing through eurythmy etc. None of it has much to
) ) do with spirituality,
) ) to me.
) )
) dottie -
)
) I think it is just opening people up to the
) possibilities of things unseen around us.
)
Sharon:
It's opening children up to a specific, hermetic magic world view called
Anthroposophy. Steiner believed that gnomes and angels actually exist,
and that color is the organ of the spiritual world. Steiner believed
that the 'I' and astral body lives in color. In Steiner's world view,
people don't just look out at the world from their bodies, they also
exist outside of their bodies in the color and forms around us. This is
medieval magic thinking.
)
) dottie -
)
) You are absolutely right Diana. However in Waldorf
) schools they put those things as a secondary versus a
) primary. They think that sparking the imagination is
) more important in the earlier years than
) intellectualism.
Sharon:
In Anthroposophy, "Imagination" is a veiled word for "spiritual sight".
Waldorf claims to develop imagination, in fact they are developing a
specific version of Anthroposophical spiritual sight.. They are telling
children what they can imagine.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 14:43:52 -0700
From: soma (soma mwt.net)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier -
III/III
Rainbow Bookstore Cooperative wrote:
)
) A fine analogy. The important question, to my mind, is this: to what extent
) were the various unappealing adoptions of Christian ideas (say, the crusades
) or the inquisition) based on those ideas themselves, and to what extent were
) they merely a misunderstanding of the ideas? Also, did some people who were
) undoubtedly devout Christians go along with the unappealing actions? If
) there is a meaningful relationship between the original ideas (and the
) followers of those ideas) and the subsequent actions, then we ought to start
) taking a good long look, and a critical look, at those ideas (and their
) followers), no matter what the intentions of the people involved. I haven't
) studied the history of Christianity in much detail, so I don't have a
) well-formed opinion on that score. But I have studied the history of
) anthroposophy, and that is how I reached the conclusions that you find so
) unsettling.
Sharon:
I think Emma Goldman had a good grasp of Christianity. Ever read her essay "The
Failure of Christianity?"
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 14:44:47 -0500
From: "Rainbow Bookstore Cooperative" (rbc supranet.com)
Subject: RE: The Green movement and the Green Party
Liz Reid wrote:
) Both of these terms have come up on this list now and I am hoping that
) someone who knows more about the Green movement, which predates the
) Green Party by a half century or more, could clear things up. I would
) be surprised if there is even a connection between the two.
Hi Liz,
that's my favorite kind of question. I could go on for hours about this
topic, but I'll try to contain myself. I would trace the beginnings of the
green movement, as distinct from the Green Party, back to the nineteenth
century. Especially in Germany, greens have always had a divergent political
profile, with some of their best known proponents on the right and others on
the left, often enough toward the extremes in each case. There are a couple
of very good histories of the movement in Germany; I'd recommend in
particular Ulrich Linse, Oekopax und Anarchie: Eine Geschichte der
oekologischen Bewegungen in Deutschland; and Jost Hermand, Gruene Utopien in
Deutschland: Zur Geschichte des oekologischen Bewusstseins. In English
there's Raymond Dominick, The Environmental Movement in Germany: Prophets
and Pioneers, 1871-1971; and Anna Bramwell, Ecology in the 20th Century: A
History. I recommend a cautious and skeptical approach to Bramwell's book.
For a less Germanocentric view you could check out Andrew Dobson, Green
Political Thought; or Carolyn Merchant, Radical Ecology, though neither one
goes in depth on the history. There are also quite a few histories of U.S.
environmentalism available. For a contemporary perspective on the green
movement I recommend Murray Bookchin, Remaking Society; or Dan Coleman,
Ecopolitics: Building a Green Society.
The Green Party began in Germany in the late 1970's, and the historical
green movement was one of its inspirations (along with the New Left, the
peace movement and the citizens initiative movements). I have a decidedly
partisan view of the development of the German Greens, so you should
probably take what I have to say with several grains of salt. At the start
the Green Party combined left, right and centrist elements, including a
small number of far-right figures who saw themselves as carrying forward the
older traditions of the right wing of the historical green movement. Those
figures mostly left the Green Party in the early 1980's. Anthroposophists
were very active in the formation of the Green Party, both its left and
right wings. There is definitely a connection between the earlier green
movement and the Green Party in Germany, though the relationship is complex.
In the U.S. there are two main organizations that approximate the German
Greens in their early stages; those two groups are currently discussing how
to unify. Their best known recent effort was Ralph Nader's presidential
candidacy. I'd say that the U.S. Greens for the most part are unaware of
their continuities with the earlier green movement(s), but that such
continuities are undoubtedly present.
) I first heard of the Greens from a dance master and scholar named Dick
) Crum. He was telling about the two women who were the first to create
) folk dances for the new Israeli state. These women came from the
) Green movement in turn of the century Germany. The ideas of this
) movement seemed very similar to those of biodynamics and
) anthroposophy.
I don't know anything about this.
) Hearing about the Greens has made me very curious as to the
) intellectual climate in Europe at the time of Steiner as it seems to
) me that Steiner and the anthroposophists were just one of many
) movements around.
Absolutely. Some scholars consider anthroposophy a part of the broader
Lebensreform movement["lifestyle reform" might be a good translation];
others emphasize its connections to the nationalist-populist voelkisch
movement. In general I think it's clear that anthroposophy fits into the
wave of 'alternative' spiritual and cultural movements that swept Wilhelmine
and Weimar Germany; these movements were deeply intertwined with the green
movement as well.
) It seems to me that the only reason we still have
) people following Steiner today is because he wrote so much down and he
) founded schools.
I think that's part of the reason. Having a base in Switzerland also played
an important role, and the broad array of anthroposophist projects (from
schools to nutrition to medicine etc.) also helps explain their contemporary
popularity.
) I suspect that Steiner back in his day was only a minor character in a
) very rich intellectual climate.
Yes. He was far more successful than most of the other spiritual leaders who
were jockeying for public atention in his day, but his profile among the
broader population went up and down. I think he was particularly interesting
to intellectuals and spiritual seekers, though some anthroposophists stress
the inroads he made among workers. There were many other spiritual reformers
during Steiner's time whose messages frequently overlapped; a very good
account of these currents, including Steiner, is Ulrich Linse's Barfuessige
Propheten.
) There is also the point that things that are written take on a life of
) their own as they become interpreted by people according to their own
) experience and not as they were originally intended. Once concepts
) have been put to paper people understand them in a different way than
) if they learn through experience or by working with people who have an
) understanding.
Quite right. I have a hard time dealing with "intentions", since they seem
to me essentially unknowable; I think it makes more sense to pay attention
to the "life of their own" that ideas take on once they're released into the
public sphere. As you point out, the anthroposophist movement does focus
fairly centrally on the writings of its founder; one interesting task for
those of us outside the movement is to figure out how the consequencse of
Steiner's ideas relate to his writings.
I hope this is helpful,
Peter Staudenmaier
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 14:47:27 -0500
From: "Rainbow Bookstore Cooperative" (rbc supranet.com)
Subject: RE: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
) Sharon:
) I think Emma Goldman had a good grasp of Christianity. Ever read
) her essay "The
) Failure of Christianity?"
No, I don't think I've read that one. She's one of my heroes; I'll look for
the essay on Christianity. Thanks for the tip!
Peter
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 14:03:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
Peter -
The
) fact that so many
) committed Nazis were drawn to anthroposophy in
) various ways tells us
) something important about the doctrines of
) anthroposophy.
dottie -
Thank you Peter for your reply. I would like to mostly
reply to this as I believe this is the gist of the
reason why the Nazis would be interested in gleaming
what Dr. Steiner had to say.
I believe the hiearchy of the Nazis were deeply into
the occult. I believe they were also aware of Dr.
Steiner and his on going work and insight into the
spiritual worlds. Now if one does not believe in the
occult or in spiritual beings and manipulations than
it would be hard to believe or even think the fact
that Hitler wanted desperately to achieve insight and
use it to his own personal use.
I believe that if the Nazis were interested in hearing
Dr. Steiner it would be for that reason.
I believe that Hitler tried to utilize what the Jews
did in creating a blood race and how that effects the
knowledge of higher worlds. That is what I believe is
the reason behind killing all the Jews.
Now all may think this is hogwash and that is okay
with me. And I think if Hitler or anyone wanted to
learn more of this unseen world there was a humble man
making the circuits and his name was Dr. Rudolf
Steiner.
thank you,
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 14:19:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: anthros, Nazis, and us
)
) Sharon:
) In
) Steiner's world view,
) people don't just look out at the world from their
) bodies, they also
) exist outside of their bodies in the color and forms
) around us. This is
) medieval magic thinking.
dottie -
I have actually found this to be true. And for me it
is not magic although I can understand it is almost
impossible to believe if you have not experienced
this. And many may not want to experience it. It
scared the daylights out of me when it happened.
What I do think is an interesting topic and I am not
sure we can debate it without biasedness (is that a
word) is the intent of Waldorf Education.
I can see that Anthroposophy is the foundation. But is
it being taught to the child or is it the method they
use. See now if you consider it a religion it would be
Anthroposophy is taught. If you do not consider it a
religion than it is a method. So it would seem that we
would have to know the intent of the teachers.
I see that one could study Dr. Steiner as an insight
into the spiritual worlds. However I do not believe
his intention was to indoctrinate kids into
Anthroposophy. I believe it was to approach education
on a spiritual level taking all things into
consideration.
Now if I am wrong and the intent is to indoctrinate
kids into Anthroposophy they better damn well be sure
it is 100 % clear on the intent. So in here I believe
lies the real dilemma. However I think it would be
very hard to debate this issue with people who feel
they have been duped into thinking it was just an
artsy school, and from that, are convinced that Dr.
Steiner was a willing partner in the hiding of this
information to further his own spiritual goals.
Hi Sharon,
dottie
)
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 19:46:40 -0700
From: soma (soma mwt.net)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier -
III/III
Rainbow Bookstore Cooperative wrote:
)
) No, I don't think I've read that one. She's one of my heroes; I'll look for
) the essay on Christianity. Thanks for the tip!
Sharon:
I love her too!
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 02:43:59 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: anthros, Nazis, and us
Sharon:
)In Anthroposophy, "Imagination" is a veiled word for "spiritual sight".
)Waldorf claims to develop imagination, in fact they are developing a
)specific version of Anthroposophical spiritual sight.. They are telling
)children what they can imagine.
This is quite literally true. In the kindergartens some teachers are very
directive about what themes are approved. As long as the children are acting
out Michael slaying the dragon and rescuing the fair princess, all is well,
isn't it wonderful they are developing their imagination. Little girls
talking about their Barbies, little boys playing dinosaurs, suddenly "free
play" is not so free.
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 02:55:04 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: reading etc. (was: anthros, Nazis, and us)
Liz wrote:
)What can be spiritual about following the clock? If any of you are
) )familiar with Pavlov's writings these methods of Steiner's seem to
) )follow a very specific purpose, i.e. preparation for indoctrination.
) )But then so are the methods used in most classrooms. As I pointed out
) )though on the Waldorf list there is a difference between training kids
) )mechanically to obey the teacher, as happens in most schools, and the
) )much more subtle training that goes on in a Waldorf school with the
) )songs and stories and extraneous rythms. These are carefully designed
) )to work on a child's nervous system and are almost impossible to )reverse
)once they have been implanted.
This is a very important point, thanks for bringing it up. Fortunately, I
don't think this "subtle training" actually works very often. I mean, it
isn't that easy to "implant" these things. The kids resist. Probably
successfully more often than not.
I wrote:
)Actions speak louder than words. I think it would be a very
)spiritual thing to run a decent school. Teaching kids to read and )write is
)a noble, spiritual calling. Trying to make the kids stay )"porous" to have
)spiritual inspiration, virtually guarantees something )very dysfunctional,
)and not at all spiritual I don't think, in place )of education.
Liz:
)Here I cannot agree. The ends do not justify the means! It should be
)the other way around. It is actually very difficult to stop children
)from learning to read and write if the environment is rich enough.
)The emphasis on reading and writing in most schools is exactly why so
)many people choose Waldorf schools. There really are other things to
)learning.
I want to respond, but I'm not sure what I wrote that you don't agree with,
or what "the ends do not justify the means" refers to.
I was trying to say that I, personally, reject versions of spirituality
where seeing visions and thinking you have knowledge of cosmic history etc.
(anthroposophy) is the definition of "spirituality." I was just saying that
education can be, in itself, a spiritual calling. It is a spiritual thing to
do, to teach children to read and write, and all the other things school is
supposed to be for. To me, this is more spiritual than a person telling me
about his or her experiences on the astral plane or what they read in the
Akashic record. I reject Waldorf teachers' assumption that because they read
Steiner, they are more spiritual, and that their function as teachers is to
nurture the childrens' spirituality.
As for learning other things besides reading and writing, I fully agree
other things are important, though probably reading and writing and math are
the the school's primary business. I think you are right that hoping to
avoid an overstress on academics is the reason many people choose Waldorf.
It was certainly the reason we chose Waldorf. We did not understand they
would just drop the ball with reading and writing, however.
)But I do agree that I do not trust some person trained at a Steiner
)college for two years, full of the belief in their own rightness, to
)have anything to do with my child's spiritual inspiration. I am much
)more worried about the damage they could cause.
Rightly so. I would suspect that a person who is concerning him- or herself
with my child's spirituality is a *lot* more likely to cause damage than to
have a positive influence. This is my own experience growing up, so it's
biased I guess. I certainly don't think every Waldorf teacher is causing
damage (I knew some very nice ones), but it's a system parents should be
very wary of; these assumptions they have any right doing anything
"spiritual" to my child are very dangerous.
I wrote:
)Give me the "hand-me-down thoughts" of the ages any day over the )mumblings
)of some guru.
Liz:
)Again I don't think that either is necessarily the best option.
I'm not sure again, what you are advocating then. I am saying I prefer the
school to do history, literature, geography etc. over concerning themselves
with my child's spiritual development. When my child grows up, if he wants
to read Steiner and gets enlightened, that's his business. I have a very
strong visceral reaction to posts like (whoever he or she is who started
this thread), I would never in a million years turn my child over to be
educated by someone thinking that way. (Of course, that's exactly what I did
do, putting my child in Waldorf.)
Liz:
)Some kids want to read at early ages and some don't. I am not for
)pushing children to do either. I also feel that reading is such an
)easy thing for healthy children to do that to hold it up as more
)important than socialising or building or playing or whatever else
)children can do is not particularly useful.
I am also opposed to "pushing" children. This is how Waldorf attracted us.
They didn't mention that they not only don't push, they deliberately delay
the process as long as possible. (Reading is certainly not easy for *all*
healthy children, but never mind.)
I don't think reading is more important than socializing or playing. I do
think the former is more the business of the school. Socializing and playing
and building, what have you, never mind spirituality, are more the family's
concern. Which doesn't mean they mustn't play at school. But it's not why I
send my son to school, know what I mean?
Waldorf teachers will have you think that at any other school, the kids will
be chained to their desk all day "intellectualizing." My son attends public
school, and the art, music, athletics, and extracurriculars are more varied
and appealing there than they were in Waldorf. Socializing, well, that's a
mixed bag, I don't like a lot of the regimentation. But I didn't find
Waldorf's version of socializing very healthy either.
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 20:53:53 -0700
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: RE: Assumptions (Was: On your seriously careless blah blah blah)
)Liz -
))
)) When one is most certain, that is the time to doubt.
)) I doubt Einstein
)) would disagree.
))
)
)dottie -
)
)I agree with you one hundred percent. My no doubt
)inspires me to go even further in my knowledge of the
)unseen worlds.
)
Debra:
Are you saying that Steiner inspires you to go further in your knowledge of
the unseen worlds? What do you know about them? How many are there? What
are they like? Do you think Steiner may reincarnate into another world
instead of this one?
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 272
-- Topica Digest --
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier
- III/III
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Coherence
By dan dandugan.com
PUBLIC WALDORF SCHOOL TRIAL POSTPONED AGAIN, COURT TO RECONSIDER
ISSUE OF STAND
By dan dandugan.com
Re: reading etc. (was: anthros, Nazis, and us)
By mypostbox.formail virgin.net
Hello
By charliemorrison btinternet.com
Hello
By charliemorrison btinternet.com
Hello
By charliemorrison btinternet.com
Re: Hello
By mypostbox.formail virgin.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 19:18:44 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier
- III/III
Dottie, you wrote,
)And I have found
)through the methods Dr. Steiner put forth he knew of
)what he spoke. There is no doubt for me. None.
OK, a statement of religious faith. Indisputable.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 19:33:37 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Coherence
) )Lastly I guess I needed to hear how incoherent I am in
))my writing and also learn how to be in a discussion
))and have my feelings hurt and not run away.
))
))dottie
)
)Debra:
)
)This list is not for the faint hearted, is it? We should put a warning
)label where people can read it before joining.
On the web page we say "not for the overly sensitive."
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 20:56:09 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: PUBLIC WALDORF SCHOOL TRIAL POSTPONED AGAIN, COURT TO RECONSIDER
ISSUE OF STANDING
PEOPLE FOR LEGAL AND NONSECTARIAN SCHOOLS, INC. (PLANS)
http://www.waldorfcritics.org
Debra Snell, President
12562 Rough and Ready Highway
Grass Valley, CA 95945
(530) 273-1005 snell netshel.net
Lisa Ercolano, Vice President
220 Gaywood Road
Baltimore, MD 21212-1709
(410) 377-4204 momof2gals mindspring.com
Dan Dugan, Secretary
290 Napoleon St. Studio E
San Francisco, CA 94124
(415) 821-9776 dan dandugan.com
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE May 7, 2001
PUBLIC WALDORF SCHOOL TRIAL POSTPONED AGAIN, COURT TO RECONSIDER
ISSUE OF STANDING
The U.S. District Court has informed PLANS that our trial date of
June 25, 2001, has been reset to January 14, 2002. The court has
requested the parties to re-brief the question of standing in light
of Altman v. Bedford Central School District (2nd Cir., March 27,
2001). A hearing on standing will be held June 1, 2001.
In the Altman case, Roman Catholic parents sued a public school
district because they objected to a number of practices that they saw
as New Age religion in a public school. The court upheld some claims
and dismissed others. The judge found that the making of an image of
the Hindu god Ganesha, the use of "worry dolls" to "chase away bad
dreams," the liturgy of an Earth Day celebration, and the playing of
a Native American prayer on a meditation tape violated the
Establishment Clause. Other practices that were ruled to be harmless
included the game "Magic, the Gathering," a Yoga class taught by a
Sikh priest, and meditation exercises.
In its decision on an appeal, the 2nd Circuit Court threw out all of
the allowed claims on a technicality without considering the merits
of the case. The circuit court ruled that most issues were moot
because the children were no longer at the schools. Taxpayer standing
was also denied because the plaintiffs did not show that the alleged
religious activities involved any specific expenditure of public
funds.
A major difference between the Altman case and PLANS' case is that
while in Altman the practices complained about were not coordinated,
PLANS alleges that Waldorf schools, both private and public, are
pervaded with Anthroposophy, the religious philosophy of Rudolf
Steiner (1861-1925). The issue with public Waldorf schools,
therefore, goes beyond specific practices to the allegation that a
religious philosophy is the foundation of both educational theory and
day-to-day activities.
With regard to taxpayer standing, the situation is also different in
PLANS' case. The schools involved made large expenditures for teacher
training by Anthroposophical mentors and teacher training at Rudolf
Steiner College, self-described as "a center for Anthroposophical
endeavors." The Sacramento public Waldorf program occupies a separate
campus established for that purpose, and the Yuba River charter
school PLANS is suing was formed for that purpose, so in both
situations taxpayer funds have been specifically paid for the alleged
religious activities.
California Eastern District Court Judge Damrell has already ruled
that PLANS has standing, and the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals has
declined to hear a challenge to that ruling. Judge Damrell's
re-consideration of standing at the June 1 hearing may signal an
intention to force the appeals court to decide on the issue.
BACKGROUND
PLANS was organized in late 1995 by former Waldorf parents and
teachers concerned about both private and public Waldorf schools. It
became a California non-profit corporation in 1997. PLANS' volunteer
board includes two public school teachers, one of whom has received
Waldorf teacher training; the president of a skeptical society; the
associate director of a Christian anti-cult ministry, and two former
Waldorf parents. PLANS' President, Debra Snell, was a director of a
private Waldorf school and helped found a Waldorf charter school. For
more information, please see the PLANS web site,
http://www.waldorfcritics.org.
PLANS contends that public Waldorf schools are intrinsically and
inseparably based upon Anthroposophy, a New Age occultic religion.
Curriculum decisions and teacher training in public Waldorf schools
are based on Anthroposophy's spiritually-based child development
model. Publicly-funded use and reliance upon the doctrines of
Anthroposophy impermissibly endorses that religion in violation of
the United States and California constitutions.
PLANS filed its federal lawsuit in Sacramento on February 11, 1998,
naming as defendants the Sacramento Unified School District, which
operates a "Waldorf Method" magnet school, and the Twin Ridges
Elementary School District, which has established seven
"Waldorf-inspired" charter schools.
-30-
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 08:02:43 +0100
From: "mypostbox.formail" (mypostbox.formail virgin.net)
Subject: Re: reading etc. (was: anthros, Nazis, and us)
) liz
) I also feel that reading is such an
)) easy thing for healthy children to do that to hold it up as more
)) important than socialising or building or playing or whatever else
)) children can do is not particularly useful.
I always figured that reading was ea easy skill to pick up until I spent
10years at a waldorf school, and then it turned into being a huge mountain
the kids needed to climb, in one class i was in only 2 children were fluent
out of 12,by class 5 (11yrs) and my own daughter didnt read by the end of
class 4, until i went out and bought a reading scheme (a huge sin) and sat
down over the summer holidays and taught her myself, btw she is now in a
state school and an 'A' student so there was nothing wrong with her brain
she just happend to need teaching and practice.
bea
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7-May-2001 07:02:53 GMT
From: charlie morrison (charliemorrison btinternet.com)
Subject: Hello
Hi all,
I've just joined the group after lurking for a while. I know I won't be
popular with most members of the group when I say that I am in favour of
Waldorf Education. But as I am interested in Anthroposophy and Waldorf
Education & I care deeply about children, I feel justified in
contributing to the posts now and again.
My kids went to a state school in Scotland, but if it had been feasible
to enrole them in a Waldorf school then I probably would have. In my
opinion the problems behind Waldorf Education are due to human failings
and not to the principles of the system.
I see the state schools in the UK turning into factories for churning
out doctors, teachers, engineers or whatever the government thinks is
needed. Just one more commodity for them to use. A properly run Waldorf
school has the interests of the developing children at heart, and wants
to see them reach their full human potential. It's not about creating
Anthroposophists, it's about helping the child to grow up to be a
healthy, balanced, unprejudiced member of society who can make up their
own minds about what they want to do with their lives, and what
religion, if any, they want to follow.
An idealistic view, I know, but we might as well aim high.
I've got my flak jacket on.
cheers,
charlie.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7-May-2001 07:04:33 GMT
From: charlie morrison (charliemorrison btinternet.com)
Subject: Hello
Hi all,
I've just joined the group after lurking for a while. I know I won't be
popular with most members of the group when I say that I am in favour of
Waldorf Education. But as I am interested in Anthroposophy and Waldorf
Education & I care deeply about children, I feel justified in
contributing to the posts now and again.
My kids went to a state school in Scotland, but if it had been feasible
to enrole them in a Waldorf school then I probably would have. In my
opinion the problems behind Waldorf Education are due to human failings
and not to the principles of the system.
I see the state schools in the UK turning into factories for churning
out doctors, teachers, engineers or whatever the government thinks is
needed. Just one more commodity for them to use. A properly run Waldorf
school has the interests of the developing children at heart, and wants
to see them reach their full human potential. It's not about creating
Anthroposophists, it's about helping the child to grow up to be a
healthy, balanced, unprejudiced member of society who can make up their
own minds about what they want to do with their lives, and what
religion, if any, they want to follow.
An idealistic view, I know, but we might as well aim high.
I've got my flak jacket on.
cheers,
charlie.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7-May-2001 07:05:06 GMT
From: charlie morrison (charliemorrison btinternet.com)
Subject: Hello
Hi all,
I've just joined the group after lurking for a while. I know I won't be
popular with most members of the group when I say that I am in favour of
Waldorf Education. But as I am interested in Anthroposophy and Waldorf
Education & I care deeply about children, I feel justified in
contributing to the posts now and again.
My kids went to a state school in Scotland, but if it had been feasible
to enrole them in a Waldorf school then I probably would have. In my
opinion the problems behind Waldorf Education are due to human failings
and not to the principles of the system.
I see the state schools in the UK turning into factories for churning
out doctors, teachers, engineers or whatever the government thinks is
needed. Just one more commodity for them to use. A properly run Waldorf
school has the interests of the developing children at heart, and wants
to see them reach their full human potential. It's not about creating
Anthroposophists, it's about helping the child to grow up to be a
healthy, balanced, unprejudiced member of society who can make up their
own minds about what they want to do with their lives, and what
religion, if any, they want to follow.
An idealistic view, I know, but we might as well aim high.
I've got my flak jacket on.
cheers,
charlie.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 08:29:12 +0100
From: "mypostbox.formail" (mypostbox.formail virgin.net)
Subject: Re: Hello
hello charlie, are you in scotland?
) My kids went to a state school in Scotland, but if it had been feasible
) to enrole them in a Waldorf school then I probably would have.
In my
) opinion the problems behind Waldorf Education are due to human failings
) and not to the principles of the system.
bea
I was at michael hall for 10 yrs and I must say there are human failings but
the system itself causes a lot of the problems we had.
) charlie
) I see the state schools in the UK turning into factories for churning
) out doctors, teachers, engineers or whatever the government thinks is
) needed.
bea
my children who had practically no exams would have like the choice to be
teachers, engineers doctors etc
Just one more commodity for them to use. A properly run Waldorf
) school has the interests of the developing children at heart, and wants
) to see them reach their full human potential.
bea;
yes thats certainley what we were told when we enrolled,but it became empty
words, the developing child was only interesting if they developed in the
way waldorf wanted them to, if they wanted to play football, learn ballet,
draw cartoons or listen to pop music they were judged, and the family was
also judged, if they wanted to use computors (age 15) to play with their
artwork it was seen as evil (arrimanic forces).
What is there full human potential...surely it also includes critical
thinking skills and academic skills, well no, they arnt reached.
It's not about creating
) Anthroposophists, it's about helping the child to grow up to be a
) healthy, balanced, unprejudiced member of society who can make up their
) own minds about what they want to do with their lives, and what
) religion, if any, they want to follow.
this seems to happen to most of the non waldorf children, it certainley
happened to me and I was at a strictly catholic school, it is IMO a lot to
do with you're family life, it is also easier to 'make up your own mind what
to do' if you have a choice there are so many doors closed to you if you
have no academic training and few exams.
I do agree the school doesnt create anthroposophists, it seemed the kids who
came from anthro families went in that direction but not the ones from
ordinary families, they just thought it was all totally wierd and to be
laughed at.
welcome to the list..so nice to have someone else from the uk
)
) An idealistic view, I know, but we might as well aim high.
)
) I've got my flak jacket on.
) cheers,
) charlie.
)
)
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 273
-- Topica Digest --
Re: Hello
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: reading etc. (was: anthros, Nazis, and us)
By paixs yahoo.com.br
Re: anthros, Nazis, and us
By steve premofine.com
Re: Biodynamics/ was On your serious...
By soma mwt.net
Re: Biodynamics/ was On your serious...
By mypostbox.formail virgin.net
Re: Coherence
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: Coherence
By mypostbox.formail virgin.net
RE: Assumptions (Was: On your seriously careless blah blah blah)
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: anthros, Nazis, and us
By soma mwt.net
Re: Assumptions (Was: On your seriously careless blah blah blah)
By Gary GoodWinter.com
Re: Assumptions (Was: On your seriously careless blah blah blah)
By dottie_z yahoo.com
RE: reading etc. (was: anthros, Nazis, and us)
By lizanderrol home.com
Re: Biodynamics/
By pacbay home.com
RE: Hello
By charliemorrison btinternet.com
Re: Hello
By mypostbox.formail virgin.net
Re: Hello
By mypostbox.formail virgin.net
Re: Hello
By mypostbox.formail virgin.net
Re: Hello
By mypostbox.formail virgin.net
RE: Hello
By charliemorrison btinternet.com
credibility
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Biodynamics/
By dan dandugan.com
Credibility of PLANS
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 11:01:39 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Hello
Hi Charlie, welcome to the list. You wrote:
)My kids went to a state school in Scotland, but if it had been feasible
)to enrole them in a Waldorf school then I probably would have. In my
)opinion the problems behind Waldorf Education are due to human failings
)and not to the principles of the system.
)I see the state schools in the UK turning into factories for churning
)out doctors, teachers, engineers or whatever the government thinks is
)needed. Just one more commodity for them to use. A properly run Waldorf
)school has the interests of the developing children at heart, and wants
)to see them reach their full human potential. It's not about creating
)Anthroposophists, it's about helping the child to grow up to be a
)healthy, balanced, unprejudiced member of society who can make up their
)own minds about what they want to do with their lives, and what
)religion, if any, they want to follow.
This is certainly how Waldorf advertises themselves, and there's nothing you
wrote many of us could disagree with. We put our kids in Waldorf for all
these reasons. We all want healthy, balanced children who reach their full
human potential. But if you didn't ever have children in Waldorf, what is it
that makes you think this is how it works out?
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 09:28:22 -0300
From: "CP" (paixs yahoo.com.br)
Subject: Re: reading etc. (was: anthros, Nazis, and us)
Liz wrote:
This kind of attitude is what prompted my question
regarding Waldorf
| teacher training. I am flabbergasted that two
years at a teacher's
| college is supposed to prepare teachers to see
spiritual reality (I
| had used the term "enlightened"). I find this
so simplistic. I am
| constantly amazed that people I know are not
fools do not find this a
| problem. I think that they are just so
desperate to find an
| alternative to the testing frenzy of public
schools, not to mention
| the six-year-old Britney Spears look-alikes.
Hello Liz; Clara here:
I think this is a very good point, thank you for
bringing it up. I agree with you that most parents
are attracted to and later overlook the weirdness
of WE because of their 'desperate' seek for an
alternative to traditional/public schools.
Have you all noticed, this comparison
WE/traditional E is very present in many of the
dialogues held here. Recently, for example,
Charlie from the UK (hello!) wrote about why he
thought WE was better than public education in
Scotland; there are other instances of this in
many posts. However, I think the comparing this
two systems is not the main issue here.
I¥d motion for the comparison WE/traditional
education to be considered beside the point. It is
NOT a sound argument in favor of WE to say - Oh
but in traditional schools the kids have to study
like mad for tests etc. This is clearly NOT what
any of us here expect from an education.
What I mean is, if we (ALL of us here, critics and
defenders) had been satisfyed with traditional
education we would never have turned to WE in the
first place. I think we can more or less safely
assume that we all searched/are searching for an
ALTERNATIVE to it. The point here is: IS WE THE
BEST ALTERNATIVE ?
Some of us here have found - through painful
processes - that it is not. I think our
expectations (a free school; a school that cares
for the whole child; no pushing; no ugly PokemÛn;
etc) at some points overlap with what WE has to
offer, but they do not match entirely. For
example, certainly no PokemÛn, but also certainly
not a free school. And core aspects of the waldorf
system clearly clash with our expectations -
mainly, the mysticism, the authority issue, the
complex racial issues.
But many of us, and other parents with the same
problem, at some point had to ask ourselves - ok,
but what is my alternative? Back to the frenzy of
tests and Britney Spears - not on this life...
Happily for us, there ARE other options. I don¥t
think this is very clear for many people. In my
case I¥m glad to have found a school for my kids
which diverges from traditonal education is the
points I disagree with, but without the problems I
find in WE. Others on this list have found that
public education can be an option, as in their
regions the monster wasn¥t as ugly as they¥d
pictured it.
Like you (Liz) I am amazed at the number of people
I know (W parents and prospective W parents) that
overlook/fail to realize how distant WE is from
their own ideas about education, or, how
contradictory anthroposophy is regarding their
world views. All they want is an alternative, so
they WANT to find it in WE.
This is sad. Those people should be warned. If you
are a materialist, a left-wing person, an
anarchist, a free-thinker, an intelectual type, WE
is not for your children. I see people who have
read and admire the works of A.S. Neil and the
Sumerhill experience put their kids in waldorf.
Nothing could be more different...
I know this is getting loooong but - just to
close; waldorfians constantly argument in favour
of WE bringing examples of good things that happen
in WE - like: no grades; no pushing; beautiful art
work; music; nature; happy kids... And they
remember their own bleak days at traditional
schools, hating classes, bored, crazy for the
holidays to come. But this comparison does not
matter. I too want my kids to love school, not be
pushed, paint beautifully, learn an instrument - I
just don¥t want to put up with the weirdness all
along. I also don¥t want them to go through a
process of spiritual initiation, which is what
will happen at WSs. I want them to be respected as
thinking human beings with their own opinions, and
to learn to respect different points of view; to
be free people. None of which will happen at a WS.
Clara
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 08:25:56 -0700
From: "Steve Premo" (steve premofine.com)
Subject: Re: anthros, Nazis, and us
On 5 May 2001, at 2:07, earlyfire earthlink.net wrote:
) I'll close with some words of another almost altogether unmalevolent 19th
) century Crackpot, hoping perhaps we can reverse-grandfather him into the
) convenient, Pinata-burstable category of a New Age Fanatic fit to intercept
) head-on the majestic sweep of Babe Ruth's Waldorfcritic-quality
) standard-setting bat.
)
) "The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away
) therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in
) thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the
) eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the
) knowledge of thy neighbor...." Hidden Words, Arabic, #2
I hardly think the Baha'i Faith fits into any kind of New Age category,
but I suppose that by comparing Steiner to Baha'u'llah you're offending
fewer people than if you had compared Steiner to Jesus.
What exactly is your point? That if we consider one spiritual leader to
be a legitimate religious figure we must accept them all as being
legitimate authorities on the nature of the spirit? It seems to me that
the views of Steiner and of Baha'u'llah on the nature of the soul are
quite incompatible. As I understand it, the Baha'i Faith specifically
rejects reincarnation.
In any event, the problem with Steiner is not what he said about the
spiritual realm. We can't test it, and his view is one of many religious
points of view to which I have no objection. The problem with Steiner is
that he claimed to gain insights about things that can be empirically
tested, regarding such "material world" concerns as child development,
agriculture, history, anatomy, and astrophysics. And with respect to
those things, he was wrong in many key respects.
Even that would be no problem if his views were seen as hypotheses to be
rejected when they don't pan out. Instead, his statements are seen as
gospel, and the findings of science are rejected as being "materialist."
That's no way to develop a pedagogy.
So what should we call you? Earlyfire? I'd prefer a real name, but
Earlyfire will do until you give us something more.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"There is a right and a wrong in the Universe and
that distinction is not difficult to make." - Superman
http://www.premofine.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 10:47:16 -0700
From: soma (soma mwt.net)
Subject: Re: Biodynamics/ was On your serious...
dottie zold wrote:
)
) European organic fertilizer, does it really say that?
) What ever happened to made in America organic fertizer
)
Sharon:
I believe it does, having not been to Madison lately I cannot say for
certain. However, the person who told me this is reliable.....
The more I learn about Anthroposophy, and the more I learn about the
Egyptian Mysteries, the easier it is to understand things like
Biodynamic farming and Waldorf education. One of Steiner's Biodynamic
preparations includes stuffing horns with nettles and other organic
material, burying the horns at a specific time and letting the horns
"suck down the earth forces". Before planting, the Biodynamic farmer
digs up the horns. (One of the Waldorf teachers told me that the horns
"suck down the life forces.) This preparation always struck me as odd,
but now I understand that Steiner was a fire philosopher in the Egyptian
mystery tradition, who accepted the Mysteries of Isis and Osiris and
absorbed the later Egyptian imitations which were initially spread by
Zoroaster in Greece and Orpheus in Thrace. Steiner said that his
Anthroposophy is Isis Sophia, (Isis Wisdom) so naturally, if you follow
Steiner's "wisdom", one would expect to continue this ancient farming
tradition and stuff Isis the "giver of life's' horns with nettles and
bury them.....
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 16:42:19 +0100
From: "mypostbox.formail" (mypostbox.formail virgin.net)
Subject: Re: Biodynamics/ was On your serious...
) Biodynamic farming and Waldorf education. One of Steiner's Biodynamic
) preparations includes stuffing horns with nettles and other organic
) material, burying the horns at a specific time and letting the horns
) "suck down the earth forces". Before planting, the Biodynamic farmer
) digs up the horns. (One of the Waldorf teachers told me that the horns
) "suck down the life forces.)
we did this very odd burying of the horns with the children in class 2 or 3
during main lesson time, I wondered if they thought it was normal for
farmers to stuff horns and bury them...
bea
)
)
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 09:04:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Coherence
) )Debra:
) )
) )This list is not for the faint hearted, is it? We
) should put a warning
) )label where people can read it before joining.
)
) On the web page we say "not for the overly
) sensitive."
)
dottie -
Yeah but Dan that does no justice what can happen
here on the first and second hello.
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 09:07:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: On your seriously careless untruthfulness, Peter Staudenmaier - III/III
--- Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com) wrote:
) Dottie, you wrote,
)
) )And I have found
) )through the methods Dr. Steiner put forth he knew
) of
) )what he spoke. There is no doubt for me. None.
)
) OK, a statement of religious faith. Indisputable.
)
dottie -
No it is not a statement of religious faith. And it is
very disputable. However I am not trying to get anyone
to believe me of what I have seen. But the truth is
that what Dr. Steiner says happens can happen in
regards to the spiritual worlds. I have seen first
hand this to be true. You don't have to believe me and
that is fine.
The point is that someone put out works that some
people do not believe and others do and some do
because they have experienced it to be true. I am one
of those people.
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 17:09:37 +0100
From: "mypostbox.formail" (mypostbox.formail virgin.net)
Subject: Re: Coherence
) dottie
) Yeah but Dan that does no justice what can happen
) here on the first and second hello.
?????? what does that mean?
confused bea
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 09:16:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Assumptions (Was: On your seriously careless blah blah blah)
) Debra:
)
) Are you saying that Steiner inspires you to go
) further in your knowledge of
) the unseen worlds? What do you know about them? How
) many are there? What
) are they like? Do you think Steiner may reincarnate
) into another world
) instead of this one?
dottie -
What I meant to convey is that when I am shown that I
express my opinion of knowing something and declare I
have no doubt, I know I have further work to do. I
realize at that moment my arrogance of thinking I know
it all. So when made known to me I search even further
due my reaction of my ego.
Steiner inspires me to look further than the physical
realities of things. I have since a young child
already been aware of certain things that are unseen
however I didn't have a knowledge of them I just knew
they existed. Having read Steiner I am aware that I
can make sense of those things I have seen since a
child.
As far as other worlds I don't think I expressed it
clearly. I mean something other than the physical
reality.
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 11:35:57 -0700
From: soma (soma mwt.net)
Subject: Re: anthros, Nazis, and us
Steve Premo wrote:
) It seems to me that
) the views of Steiner and of Baha'u'llah on the nature of the soul are
) quite incompatible. As I understand it, the Baha'i Faith specifically
) rejects reincarnation.
Sharon:
A Baha'i family left our Waldorf school, they don't believe in reincarnation,
you are correct. The Baha'i mom (a good friend of mine) felt that Waldorf ed.
was at odds with her family's beliefs.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 12:28:07 -0400
From: Gary Bonhiver (gary goodwinter.com)
Subject: Re: Assumptions (Was: On your seriously careless blah blah blah)
on 5/7/01 12:16 PM, dottie zold at dottie_z yahoo.com wrote:
) dottie -
)
) What I meant to convey is that when I am shown that I
) express my opinion of knowing something and declare I
) have no doubt, I know I have further work to do. I
) realize at that moment my arrogance of thinking I know
) it all. So when made known to me I search even further
) due my reaction of my ego.
)
) Steiner inspires me to look further than the physical
) realities of things. I have since a young child
) already been aware of certain things that are unseen
) however I didn't have a knowledge of them I just knew
) they existed. Having read Steiner I am aware that I
) can make sense of those things I have seen since a
) child.
Seen any UFO's lately? I understand L.A. is a UFO magnet...
...Gary
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 09:31:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Assumptions (Was: On your seriously careless blah blah blah)
Gary -
) Seen any UFO's lately? I understand L.A. is a UFO
) magnet...
)
Hey Gary is that shorthand for something?
No however I saw something very strange when I was
eighteen however I do not think I woul want to
elaborate and get my butt kicked once again.
thanks,
dottie
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 12:35:58 -0700
From: "Liz Reid&Errol Strelnikoff" (lizanderrol home.com)
Subject: RE: reading etc. (was: anthros, Nazis, and us)
) Fortunately, I
) don't think this "subtle training" actually works very
) often. I mean, it
) isn't that easy to "implant" these things. The kids resist.
) Probably
) successfully more often than not.
The mere action of resisting is affecting a child's growth in more
ways than I care to have happen to my kids.
It is a
) spiritual thing to
) do, to teach children to read and write, and all the other
) things school is
) supposed to be for.
I was disagreeing that teaching children to read and write is a
spiritual thing. It can be very ugly in some instances, depending on
the *how*. I also do not agree that schools are *supposed* to be for
these things. Schools can be for any number of things. Schools can
even fail at achieving their goals. The important measure for success
however is not whether a school succeeds at reaching certain goals but
rather the methods used to reach those goals.
For example, lets assume a school is operating to teach about business
and the teaching involves the actual running of a business. Suppose
after everyone's efforts to succeed the business fails to make any
money. As a business the school would have been a failure but as an
attempt to teach about business the school may have been a great
success. The Means justify the Ends. Not the other way around.
) As for learning other things besides reading and writing, I
) fully agree
) other things are important, though probably reading and
) writing and math are
) the the school's primary business. I think you are right
) that hoping to
) avoid an overstress on academics is the reason many people
) choose Waldorf.
) It was certainly the reason we chose Waldorf. We did not
) understand they
) would just drop the ball with reading and writing, however.
This is where I get into all sorts of trouble. I do not want a school
that teaches reading. I know so many kids who hate to read because
they associate it with school and having to read when they would have
preferred to be playing. I find that my kids are most responsive to
reading when they are at home and away from the distractions of having
their friends around. Many kids, given the choice would prefer to be
playing with their friends rather than reading with them. My kids
certainly would.
We spend time on reading and writing at home. They go to school
because that is where there are kids for them to play with. I don't
want my children's love of learning damaged by any teacher just like I
don't want my kids self-esteem or spirit to be in the hands of any
teacher (of course a great teacher is different.)
) )Give me the "hand-me-down thoughts" of the ages any day
) over the )mumblings
) )of some guru.
)
) Liz:
) )Again I don't think that either is necessarily the best option.
)
) I'm not sure again, what you are advocating then.
It all depends on what you do with these things. If you use them as
an excuse to avoid thinking then they are both equally useless.
) Liz:
) )Some kids want to read at early ages and some don't. I am not for
) )pushing children to do either. I also feel that reading is such an
) )easy thing for healthy children to do that to hold it up as more
) )important than socialising or building or playing or whatever else
) )children can do is not particularly useful.
)
) I am also opposed to "pushing" children. This is how
) Waldorf attracted us.
) They didn't mention that they not only don't push, they
) deliberately delay
) the process as long as possible. (Reading is certainly not
) easy for *all*
) healthy children, but never mind.)
Perhaps you are right, but in my experience in free schools where
things are only taught when children ask for them, and this happened
pretty rarely, everyone learned to read eventually. Of course there
was no age set for when reading should begin and each child began when
they wanted. Many did not start reading 'till they were ten or
eleven. Many kids learned to read and then rarely did. But then I
know many financially successful people who rarely read also. It all
depends on what your goals are.
) I don't think reading is more important than socializing or
) playing. I do
) think the former is more the business of the school.
) Socializing and playing
) and building, what have you, never mind spirituality, are
) more the family's
) concern. Which doesn't mean they mustn't play at school.
) But it's not why I
) send my son to school, know what I mean?
And I find that reality is just the opposite. In today's world kids
spend so much time at school that if we were to try and socialise
after school there would be at best only a few hours to do so. Many
kids have homework after school and never come out to play at all.
Academics are much better taught in small groups or one on one. I
resented being in a classroom with so many kids who didn't want to be
there and they sabotaged the class constantly. If they had been able
to go outside and let the kids that wanted to be there stay we could
have spent far fewer boring hours in school
But I
) didn't find
) Waldorf's version of socializing very healthy either.
So far we are surviving. I calculated that on the Monday and Friday
walks alone to the closest playground my son's kindergarten class has
covered over 150 miles since the Fall. And that is not counting the
almost constant running around they do once they get to the park.
They also walk every day in the local area. On the walks and at the
park they are all freely socialising and playing. (and just a little
secret, when my husband goes with them sometimes he brings a soccer
ball and they all play soccer. The teachers haven't complained yet.)
So you see all Waldorf schools are the same. Ours tries to emphasis
Community and child developmental practices over anthroposophy! Thank
goodness!
Liz
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 15:54:16 -0700
From: "jeff auen" (pacbay home.com)
Subject: Re: Biodynamics/
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C0D70D.F7F43FA0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
May I ask where you found the reference that Steiner was "a fire =
philosopher" in ancient Egypt? And, if accurate, which I don't believe =
it is, this would not necessarily explain his development of =
Bio-Dynamic farming. He and other peers were adamant that ancient wisdom =
practices and traditions not be re-vitalized and brought into the 20th =
century. They only way for new breakthroughs in knowledge was to master =
first the intellectual tradition now working in modern science and =
philosophy and then add spiritual study, appropriate meditation =
practices which allows one to contact and observe the vital forces =
interacting with our environment and earth. This has been done with new =
contributions in China in chi gung based medical practices and some =
acupuncture and herbal treatments advancements and reformulations.=20
Most "vitalist" proponents and metaphysicans are not interested in =
exploring ancient theories or applicains per se but are trying to =
demonstrate the existence and influences of these forces based by =
observation or research and then apply them to healing, agriculture or =
medicinal plants. In particular area "observation" is still limited to =
non visual phenomena but "tactile observation" and effects in body have =
been and are are demonstrated by doctors and practitioners on patients =
. New contributions to existing traditions are then developed =
independent of fragmented practices of the past like native herbalism or =
"alchemy". All this is in its infancy and needs a great deal more work.
Similarities may exist between some modern esoteric and metaphysical =
theories and practices and older ones because some principles are =
perennial but new knowledge and applications are being pursued =
independent of older traditions.=20
Just a clarification.
jeff auen
----- Original Message -----=20
From: (soma mwt.net)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 10:47 AM
Subject: Re: Biodynamics/ was On your serious...
)=20
)=20
) dottie zold wrote:
)=20
) )
) ) European organic fertilizer, does it really say that?
) ) What ever happened to made in America organic fertizer
) )
)=20
) Sharon:
) I believe it does, having not been to Madison lately I cannot say for
) certain. However, the person who told me this is reliable.....
)=20
) The more I learn about Anthroposophy, and the more I learn about the
) Egyptian Mysteries, the easier it is to understand things like
) Biodynamic farming and Waldorf education. One of Steiner's Biodynamic
) preparations includes stuffing horns with nettles and other organic
) material, burying the horns at a specific time and letting the horns
) "suck down the earth forces". Before planting, the Biodynamic farmer
) digs up the horns. (One of the Waldorf teachers told me that the horns
) "suck down the life forces.) This preparation always struck me as odd,
) but now I understand that Steiner was a fire philosopher in the =
Egyptian
) mystery tradition, who accepted the Mysteries of Isis and Osiris and
) absorbed the later Egyptian imitations which were initially spread by
) Zoroaster in Greece and Orpheus in Thrace. Steiner said that his
) Anthroposophy is Isis Sophia, (Isis Wisdom) so naturally, if you =
follow
) Steiner's "wisdom", one would expect to continue this ancient farming
) tradition and stuff Isis the "giver of life's' horns with nettles and
) bury them.....
)=20
)=20
)=20
) =
=3D=3D^=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
) EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?b1dkiG.b2B2uw
) Or send an email To: waldorf-critics-unsubscribe topica.com
) This email was sent to: pacbay home.com
)=20
) T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less.
) Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose.
) http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
) =
=3D=3D^=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
)=20
)=20
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C0D70D.F7F43FA0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
(!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN")
(HTML)(HEAD)
(META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1")
(META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR)
(STYLE)(/STYLE)
(/HEAD)
(BODY)
(DIV)(FONT face=3DArial size=3D2)May I ask where you found=20
the reference that Steiner was "a fire philosopher" in ancient =
Egypt?=20
And, if accurate, which I don't believe it is, this would not =
necessarily=20
explain his development of Bio-Dynamic farming. He and other peers were =
adamant=20
that ancient wisdom practices and traditions not be re-vitalized and =
brought=20
into the 20th century. They only way for new breakthroughs in knowledge=20
was to master first the intellectual tradition now working in =
modern=20
science and philosophy and then add spiritual study, appropriate =
meditation=20
practices which allows one to contact and observe the vital forces=20
interacting with our environment and earth. This has been done with =
new=20
contributions in China in chi gung based medical practices and some =
acupuncture and herbal treatments advancements and reformulations. =
(/FONT)(/DIV)
(DIV)(FONT face=3DArial size=3D2)(/FONT) (/DIV)
(DIV)(FONT face=3DArial size=3D2)Most "vitalist" proponents and=20
metaphysicans are not interested in exploring =
ancient theories or=20
applicains per se but are trying to demonstrate the =
existence and=20
influences of these forces based by observation or =
research and=20
then apply them to healing, agriculture or medicinal plants. In =
particular=20
area "observation" is still limited to non visual phenomena =
but=20
"tactile observation" and effects in body have been and =
are are =20
demonstrated by doctors and practitioners on patients . New=20
contributions to existing traditions are then developed independent =
of=20
fragmented practices of the past like native herbalism=20
or "alchemy". All this is in its infancy and =
needs a=20
great deal more work.(/FONT)(/DIV)
(DIV)(FONT face=3DArial size=3D2)(/FONT) (/DIV)
(DIV)(FONT face=3DArial size=3D2) Similarities may exist between =
some modern=20
esoteric and metaphysical theories and practices and older =
ones=20
because some (EM)principles (/EM)are perennial but new knowledge=20
and applications are being pursued independent of older =
traditions.=20
(/FONT)(/DIV)
(DIV)(FONT face=3DArial size=3D2)(/FONT) (/DIV)
(DIV)(FONT face=3DArial size=3D2)Just a clarification.(/FONT)(/DIV)
(DIV)(FONT face=3DArial size=3D2)(/FONT) (/DIV)
(DIV)(FONT face=3DArial size=3D2)jeff auen(/FONT)(/DIV)
(DIV)(FONT face=3DArial size=3D2)----- Original Message ----- (/FONT)
(DIV)(FONT face=3DArial size=3D2)From: <(/FONT)(A=20
href=3D"mailto:soma mwt.net")(FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2)soma mwt.net(/FONT)(/A)(FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2)>(/FONT)(/DIV)
(DIV)(FONT face=3DArial size=3D2)To: <(/FONT)(A=20
href=3D"mailto:waldorf-critics topica.com")(FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2)waldorf-critics topica.com(/FONT)(/A)(FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2)>(/FONT)(/DIV)
(DIV)(FONT face=3DArial size=3D2)Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 10:47 =
AM(/FONT)(/DIV)
(DIV)(FONT face=3DArial size=3D2)Subject: Re: Biodynamics/ was On your=20
serious...(/FONT)(/DIV)(/DIV)
(DIV)(FONT face=3DArial)(BR)(FONT size=3D2)(/FONT)(/FONT)(/DIV)(FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2)> (BR)> (BR)> dottie zold wrote:(BR)> (BR)> =
>(BR)>=20
> European organic fertilizer, does it really say that?(BR)> > =
What=20
ever happened to made in America organic fertizer(BR)> >(BR)> =
(BR)>=20
Sharon:(BR)> I believe it does, having not been to Madison lately I =
cannot=20
say for(BR)> certain. However, the person who told me this is=20
reliable.....(BR)> (BR)> The more I learn about Anthroposophy, and =
the=20
more I learn about the(BR)> Egyptian Mysteries, the easier it is to=20
understand things like(BR)> Biodynamic farming and Waldorf education. =
One of=20
Steiner's Biodynamic(BR)> preparations includes stuffing horns with =
nettles=20
and other organic(BR)> material, burying the horns at a specific time =
and=20
letting the horns(BR)> "suck down the earth forces". Before planting, =
the=20
Biodynamic farmer(BR)> digs up the horns. (One of the Waldorf =
teachers told=20
me that the horns(BR)> "suck down the life forces.) This preparation =
always=20
struck me as odd,(BR)> but now I understand that Steiner was a fire=20
philosopher in the Egyptian(BR)> mystery tradition, who accepted the=20
Mysteries of Isis and Osiris and(BR)> absorbed the later Egyptian =
imitations=20
which were initially spread by(BR)> Zoroaster in Greece and Orpheus =
in=20
Thrace. Steiner said that his(BR)> Anthroposophy is Isis Sophia, =
(Isis=20
Wisdom) so naturally, if you follow(BR)> Steiner's "wisdom", =
one would=20
expect to continue this ancient farming(BR)> tradition and stuff Isis =
the=20
"giver of life's' horns with nettles and(BR)> bury them.....(BR)> =
(BR)>=20
(BR)> (BR)>=20
=3D=3D^=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D(BR)> EASY=20
UNSUBSCRIBE click here: (/FONT)(A=20
href=3D"http://topica.com/u/?b1dkiG.b2B2uw")(FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2)http://topica.com/u/?b1dkiG.b2B2uw(/FONT)(/A)(BR)(FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2)> Or send an email To: (/FONT)(A=20
href=3D"mailto:waldorf-critics-unsubscribe topica.com")(FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2)waldorf-critics-unsubscribe topica.com(/FONT)(/A)(BR)(FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2)> This email was sent to: (/FONT)(A=20
href=3D"mailto:pacbay home.com")(FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2)pacbay home.com(/FONT)(/A)(BR)(FONT face=3DArial size=3D2)> =
(BR)> T O P=20
I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less.(BR)> Newsletters, Tips and =
Discussions=20
on Topics You Choose.(BR)> (/FONT)(A=20
href=3D"http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01")(FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2)http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01(/FONT)(/A)(BR)(FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2)>=20
=3D=3D^=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D(BR)>=20
(BR)> (/FONT)(/BODY)(/HTML)
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C0D70D.F7F43FA0--
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8-May-2001 06:40:43 GMT
From: charlie morrison (charliemorrison btinternet.com)
Subject: RE: Hello
I'd like to apologise to everyone for my hello, hello, hello. It's my
computer, it plays tricks on me, honest!
mypostbox.formail wrote:
) hello charlie, are you in scotland?
charlie
Hi bea, yes I'm in Aberdeen-shire.
) bea
) I was at michael hall for 10 yrs and I must say there are human failings
) but
) the system itself causes a lot of the problems we had.
charlie
I still think the principles behind WE are sound.
) bea
) my children who had practically no exams would have like the choice to
) be
) teachers, engineers doctors etc
charlie
Did they do all their schooling at Michael Hall?
) bea;
...if they wanted to play football, learn ballet,
) draw cartoons or listen to pop music they were judged, and the family
) was
) also judged, if they wanted to use computors (age 15) to play with their
) artwork it was seen as evil (arrimanic forces).
) What is there full human potential...surely it also includes critical
) thinking skills and academic skills, well no, they arnt reached.
charlie
Sounds like the teachers were demonstating their 'human failings' there,
but then, I haven't heard their side of the story.
) bea;
) I do agree the school doesnt create anthroposophists, it seemed the kids
) who
) came from anthro families went in that direction but not the ones from
) ordinary families, they just thought it was all totally wierd and to be
) laughed at.
charlie
Well no indoctrination there then.
)bea
) welcome to the list..so nice to have someone else from the uk
thanks for your welcome
cheers,
charlie.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 07:47:03 +0100
From: "mypostbox.formail" (mypostbox.formail virgin.net)
Subject: Re: Hello
) charlie
) Did they do all their schooling at Michael Hall?
Two of my children did all their schooling there, and three didnt.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 07:47:48 +0100
From: "mypostbox.formail" (mypostbox.formail virgin.net)
Subject: Re: Hello
) charlie
) I still think the principles behind WE are sound.
that is certainley what i thought for the first years...
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 07:57:42 +0100
From: "mypostbox.formail" (mypostbox.formail virgin.net)
Subject: Re: Hello
)) bea;
) ...if they wanted to play football, learn ballet,
)) draw cartoons or listen to pop music they were judged, and the family
)) was
)) also judged, if they wanted to use computors (age 15) to play with their
)) artwork it was seen as evil (arrimanic forces).
)) What is there full human potential...surely it also includes critical
)) thinking skills and academic skills, well no, they arnt reached.
)
) charlie
) Sounds like the teachers were demonstating their 'human failings' there,
) but then, I haven't heard their side of the story.
I'm not sure that was human failings...they believe that football, ballet
computors etc are bad and the system is very judgemental, if you dont eat
what they say or use the crayons they say etc it was a relief in the normal
schools to suddenly feel so free...
do you think judging is a human failing? or what?
what has been you're involvement with rudolf steiner?
bea
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 07:59:05 +0100
From: "mypostbox.formail" (mypostbox.formail virgin.net)
Subject: Re: Hello
)
)) bea;
)) I do agree the school doesnt create anthroposophists, it seemed the kids
)) who
)) came from anthro families went in that direction but not the ones from
)) ordinary families, they just thought it was all totally wierd and to be
)) laughed at.
)
) charlie
) Well no indoctrination there then.
well I wouldent say that! just not very sucessful...
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8-May-2001 07:00:04 GMT
From: charlie morrison (charliemorrison btinternet.com)
Subject: RE: Hello
Diana Winters wrote:
)We all want healthy, balanced children who reach their full
)human potential. But if you didn't ever have children in Waldorf, )what
)is it
) that makes you think this is how it works out?
) Diana
Hi Diana,
Thanks for welcoming me onto the list.
Like I said, I think that's how it would work out in a properly run
school. It's just a real shame things don't always work out as planned.
But I do think that sending the kids to school at the age of five and
sometimes even four here in the UK, does them a lot more harm than good.
At the end of the day, their math skills are no better, in fact they are
a lot worse, than their continental cousins who don't start school till
they are about seven years old.
cheers
charlie ________________________________________________________________
) Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 18:56:22 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: credibility
A review by William Jarvis of -Chiropractic: The Greatest Hoax of the
Century?- printed in -The Scientific Review of Alternative Medicine-
(Fall/Winter 2000) states:
"Readers with only average knowledge about chiropractic are likely to
judge Dr. Chotkowski's book to be overly exaggerated and biased.
After all, it is written by a physician. Reasonable people simply
have difficulty believing that lawmakers would legitimize a
health-care guild as bereft of a scientific basis and as flawed in
every way as is chiropractic. To have credibility with audiences, I
have found it necessary to understate the facts about chiropractic,
but Dr. Chotowski tells the straight truth with the insight of a
physician, and by doing so inherits the liability of the possible
disbelief of his readers."
We have the same problem with Waldorf. When we call Steiner's
theories "crackpot," people can't believe that that term can apply to
a system that presents itself so professionally, is praised by
experts, and is adopted by public school districts. But study of
Steiner and current Anthroposophical literature justifies the term.
-Dan Dugan
p.s. Please, no thread about chiropractic; it's off-topic.
-dD-
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 01:14:37 -0700
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Biodynamics/
Jeff, you wrote,
)They only way for new breakthroughs in knowledge was to master
)first the intellectual tradition now working in modern science and
)philosophy and then add spiritual study, appropriate meditation
)practices which allows one to contact and observe the vital forces
)interacting with our environment and earth. This has been done with
)new contributions in China in chi gung based medical practices and
)some acupuncture and herbal treatments advancements and
)reformulations.
Nonsense. I attended some lectures of the Chi Gung Institute here,
and purchased a collection of "scientific" papers from China. I am
sure there is real science being done in China, but these papers from
Chinese Chi Gung institutions were a joke. They wouldn't pass muster
at a high school science fair.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 08:52:44 GMT
From: Sune Nordwall (sune.nordwall home.se)
Subject: Credibility of PLANS
Dan Dugan wrote:
) A review by William Jarvis of -Chiropractic: The Greatest
) Hoax of the Century?- printed in -The Scientific Review
) of Alternative Medicine- (Fall/Winter 2000) states:
)
) "Readers with only average knowledge about chiropractic
) are likely to judge Dr. Chotkowski's book to be overly
) exaggerated and biased.
) After all, it is written by a physician. Reasonable
) people simply have difficulty believing that lawmakers
) would legitimize a health-care guild as bereft of a
) scientific basis and as flawed in every way as is
) chiropractic. To have credibility with audiences, I
) have found it necessary to understate the facts about
) chiropractic,
) but Dr. Chotowski tells the straight truth with the
) insight of a physician, and by doing so inherits the
) liability of the possible disbelief of his readers."
)
) We have the same problem with Waldorf. When we call
) Steiner's theories "crackpot," people can't believe that
) that term can apply to a system that presents itself so
) professionally, is praised by experts, and is adopted by
) public school districts. But study of Steiner and current
) Anthroposophical literature justifies the term.
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
) p.s. Please, no thread about chiropractic; it's off-topic.
You put forth something that looks like an argument, but say
you don't want to discuss it (that is, its validity).
If your argument can't be questioned and discussed, but is
put forth by you as a non-arguable statement, does that not
make it very much into what you accuse waldorf education of
doing; putting forth arguments of faith, that can't be
questioned?
Only, in your case, it concerns what is written by
a 'sceptic', that you seem to hold for true 'by definition'
while when it concerns Waldorf Education, you consider
it 'by definition' to be based on 'crackpot theory', of
which you, by the way, still keep the by you admitted
consciously untruthful description at the site of PLANS by
you, for lack of something more truthful that sounds as
weird as your consciously untruthful description.
If you can't even come up with a truthful one-sentence
description of the basis of Waldorf education after 10
years of study and 5 years of anti-waldorf activism,
showing you understand what you are talking about and
decide for yourself if it is true or not, but still, after
10 years of study have to rely on a conscious untruth,
how do you expect to be taken seriously?
http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/17/13/01.html and
http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/17/09/08.html
comment on your 'non-argument'(?).
But it's not an argument trying to start a thread on
chiropractic, just a ... comment.
Regards,
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological
cell biology, EU and social threefolding
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 274
-- Topica Digest --
RE: Snookerd' by Mr. Staudenmaier?
By rbc supranet.com
RE: Snookerd' by Mr. Staudenmaier?
By rbc supranet.com
RE: credibility
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: Bea: Going to a Michael Hall open day ...
By mypostbox.formail virgin.net
Re: my education vs Steiner's
By paixs yahoo.com.br
Re: Steiner's theories
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Is something wrong with the Digest service?
By fishnet wish.net
RE: Is something wrong with the Digest service?
By faiman jlc.net
Steiner, etc. on special education
By snell netshel.net
RE: playing/was reading etc. (was: anthros, Nazis, and us)
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: Judaism as "Christ-optional megalomania" (was "Kneejerk" by earlyfire)
By steve premofine.com
Re: Bea: Going to a Michael Hall open day ...
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: my education vs Steiner's
By steve premofine.com
Re: objective/subjective -- I'm confused, Dottie!
By steve premofine.com
Re: Steiner's theories
By pacbay home.com
RE: feelings, nothing more than feelings
By lizanderrol home.com
RE: feelings, nothing more than feelings
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: Snookerd' by Mr. Staudenmaier?
By steve premofine.com
RE: credibility
By charliemorrison btinternet.com
Re: feelings, nothing more than feelings
By mkopp xtra.co.nz
Re: Judaism as "Christ-optional megalomania" (was "Kneejerk" by
earlyfire)
By earlyfire earthlink.net
RE: credibility
By mkopp xtra.co.nz
RE: Bea: Going to a Michael Hall open day ...
By charliemorrison btinternet.com
Re: credibility
By mkopp xtra.co.nz
Re: feelings, nothing more than feelings
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: credibility
By dottie_z yahoo.com
Re: Judaism as "Christ-optional megalomania" (was "Kneejerk" by earlyfire)
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: Judaism as "Christ-optional megalomania" (was "Kneejerk" by earlyfire)
By dottie_z yahoo.com
RE: Religion and Mysticism and the truth part 5?
By sufrito53 yahoo.com
RE: credibility
By charliemorrison btinternet.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 23:50:44 -0500
From: "Rainbow Bookstore Cooperative" (rbc supranet.com)
Subject: RE: Snookerd' by Mr. Staudenmaier?
Dottie, responding to Diana:
) Well then Diana when you have time you should read the
) reply to Peter in where is quoted as saying Steiner
) wished the Jews would cease to exist and then also
) that Steiner anticipated elements from the Nazis
) decades earlier. Peter in his round about way tries to
) show that Steiner personally helped usher in the war
) that anihilated millions of Jews. That is personal
) collaboration. I do not know how one could see it in
) any other way. Peters words in this document are
) clearly implicating Steiner as a forerunner.
Aha, perhaps we're getting somewhere. Although I'm not sure I'd use the word
"forerunner" myself, this is much closer to my argument. But not a
forerunner of the holocaust, a forerunner of other aspects of Nazism.
Steiner's views on Jews were both ambivalent and constantly shifting, rather
unlike Hitler's singleminded obsession with the "Jewish race" as a
biological pathogen. Steiner was an antisemite more than half the time, but
not of the Nazi sort. My use of his quote about the Jews ceasing to exist as
a people was in response to Waage's depiction of Steiner as a lifelong
Judeophile. I do not use that quote to compare Steiner to the Nazis.
Peter S.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 23:56:44 -0500
From: "Rainbow Bookstore Cooperative" (rbc supranet.com)
Subject: RE: Snookerd' by Mr. Staudenmaier?
more Dottie:
) Well according to this article Peter played with a few
) words, or maybe he defined them that way, I am not
) sure, and that is not what Dr. Steiner is quoted on in
) the page that Peter gave as his reference.
Dottie, you've told us you don't read German. How could you check a
reference to Geschichte der Menschheit? Anybody know if this book (History
of Humanity; don't have the GA# at hand) has been translated into English?
) And with that statement as it stands, (this article
) claims it does not exist as Peter has stated),
That doesn't sound like Waage to me. What article did you read? Can you tell
me where you found it?
Peter S.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 22:00:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: credibility
Michael,
) As to the primordial slime, it must have been aware
) of something,
) because it changed and became higher and higher
) orders of slime,
) leading to us, you and me, Charlie, the highest form
) of slime around
) today. But we're still slime.
)
) But we are no more "aware" of anything other than
) our physical life
) than that primordial slime was. Neither Steiner nor
) you nor me nor
) Dottie Zold nor anyone or anything else is "aware"
) of anything
) supernatural or belonging to "higher worlds".
) Therefore they do not,
) for all practical purposes, exist.
)
dottie -
I love you Michael, isn't that terrible. I am glad I
stuck around to get past all the harsh words. It's
like Debra says, we are all in this together.
Of course you would know I have not gone to bed yet.
Soooo, For all practical purposes they do not exist
for you. Not a judgement, just what you stated.
However however however, for this slime that's named
dottie zold, who is very insistant upon evolving, they
do exist.
Michael -
) Show me the higher worlds -- outside of my mind, not
) inside it
) through self-delusion.
)
dottie -
Michael find a rose bush with a few buds on it :)
love to you,
dottie
in hollywood
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 09:07:16 +0100
From: "mypostbox.formail" (mypostbox.formail virgin.net)
Subject: Re: Bea: Going to a Michael Hall open day ...
Jay:
Thanks for the welcome. Yes, we have told them that our son has Down's
Syndrome and they said they would be delighted to take him on. We were also
told that several other children with DS had been to the school and had
'done very well'.
I am absolutely staggered!!!WHO did you speak to???I have certainley never
known any DS children there, I mentioned it to a friend of mine yesterday
who is still there Year 9, and she laughed and said she hoped I'd warned
you! mind you they do say that they get 'very good results', they even said
in the school paper the michael hall news that the government figures for
GCSE results were wrong(!!) and the correct results were not a 34% pass rate
but a 84% pass rate!! (wrong)
Jay:
This is all obviously very scary but is in contrast to the impression we
were given. How long ago was this?
bea:
not long ago and I am still very much in touch with friends there.
Jay:
West London. Quite a way from MH, but we are absolutely adamant that we
will find the right school for our son, and are prepared to relocate if
necessary.
Bea: please make sure you have spoken to parents and ex parents before you
relocate, I have many friends who moved down from london, it was very
disastrous for them having relocated to find out all the untruths!
Be very wary of the parents wheeled out at open day, they are there to sell
the school, be wary of the prospective parents lectures, they dont tell the
truth.
please tell me WHO you spoke to who said DS was OK?please ask for the names
of other DS parents and can you contact them??
please look into the Qualifications of the remedial department.
ask at other local schools, they have all taken the casualities, the village
school, fonthill, notre dame, etc
please refer to the sunday telegraph article called "the hippiest days of
their lives"
Please be aware they are despaeratley looking for pupils and hide lots of
problems to acheive this.
Be aware in Kindergarden they take 24 children and have one teacher and one
helper, and there is funny philosophy about the helper not being too
involved with the children. There is lots of bullying which they dont see
and dont acknowledge, have you heard of benign neglect?
Have you read the RS passage on the girl in class 1? she was possesed by a
demon? (beacause she had learning difficulties)
so much more...
bea
)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 08:50:04 -0300
From: "CP" (paixs yahoo.com.br)
Subject: Re: my education vs Steiner's
I suppose I made it very clear that ENPHASES HAD
BEEN ADDED (when I wrote: "emphases added...")
The purpose of adding enphasis when you quote
somebody else¥s words is to indicate to the reader
what specific part of the text you are referring
to. At least this is how I learned it.
Why this would be considdred childish I cannot
see.
What I can see is that trying to debate
objectivelly (ie: based on what people have
actually *written* on posts) is impossible in some
cases here. But I thought it was worth trying.
Anyway:
Our postboxes get full everyday from this list¥s
mail. There are days when all one gets is
pointless personal accusations. Can Dan, as a
moderator, do anything about this?
It distracts members from the real point in debate
here.
Clara
----- Original Message -----
From: dottie zold (dottie_z yahoo.com)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 23:22
Subject: Re: my education vs Steiner's
| ) ) Clara here:
| ) )
| ) ) Just in case Dottie has a problem with her
post
| ) ) archive, this is what Dottie had told Lisa
before
| ) ) (emphases added):
| ) )) )
|
| Claras emphasis is the added *s ***...this is
just
| getting so childish...
|
|
| ) ) | dottie -
| ) ) |
| ) ) | Well Lisa if yoiu would really like to
inform
| ) ) yourself
| ) ) | if that is the only place he got his self
| ) ) knowledge
| ) ) | than you might like to read his
autobiography to
| ) ) see
| ) ) | the education the man had. *It far
outweights
| ) ) yours* and
| ) ) | I assume everyone elses on this list. The
path
| ) ) he
| ) ) | pursued in all phenomena of the human
being is
| ) ) just
| ) ) | stunning.
| ) )
| ) ) Clara:
| ) )
| ) ) So: Dottie made it all about Lisa, not Lisa.
| ) )
| dottie -
|
| Well see that is the point Clara. This list is
so
| funny. You made the emphasis on those words not
me.
| Lisa made a statement and I responded about her
| informing herself...that was not meant as an
insult to
| her education which is how she took it so yes in
my
| mind she made it about her.
|
| However I should not be surprised how people
take
| things here and how *emphasis* is put on the
| negative...like I wonder why Dottie uses Caps
when she
| writes Truth...oh okay let me get caught up in
the
| word game once again...
|
| good grief,
|
| dottie
|
|
|
|
|
| ) )
| ) )
| ) )
| ) )
| ) )
| ) )
| )
|
__________________________________________________
_______
| ) ) Do You Yahoo!?
| ) ) Get your free yahoo.com address at
| ) http://mail.yahoo.com
| ) )
| ) )
| ) )
| )
| )
| )
|
|
|
__________________________________________________
| Do You Yahoo!?
| Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at
great prices
| http://auctions.yahoo.com/
|
|
=================
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 09:49:16 -0400
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: Steiner's theories
Please refrain from mention "Madame" Blavatsky and Edgar Cayce in the same
breath as you mention Plato.
Blavatsky was, in my opinion (and clearly that of other clear-thinking
people) a monumental fake and con artist. Cayce, well, in my opinion not
much better.
Mentioning Blavatsky and Cayce almost guarantees that, at least as far as I
am concerned, your arguments will be dismissed out of hand.
Besides, my point to Dottie was not whether or not what Steiner said was
true or not. I intended simply to point out to Dottie that what Steiner put
forth were *theories*, and not, as she insisted, objective truth.
Lisa
----------
)From: jeff auen (pacbay home.com)
)To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)Subject: Re: Steiner's theories
)Date: Fri, May 11, 2001, 12:23 AM
)
) Lisa,
)
) As you said, that Steiner had theories that you, Dottie, believe are factual
) is beside the point - but that is point. If Steiner were the only one who
) ever mentioned Atlantis or life on "other planets" one may have a good wacko
) case but many others - Plato, Blavatsky, Cayce et. al independently spoke
) of far distant lands and cultures predating ancient Egypt and Cro-Magnon
) times by many thousands of years. They and such historical figures as
) Augustine, Plotinus,Swendenborg, various Catholic Saints, Joseph Smith,
) Martin Luther claimed aslo that non physical beings exist and live away
) from the earth..
)
) There continues to a lack of solid evidence as of yet about Altantis and
) Lemuria but many interesting archeological finds off the coast of Bimini,
) Europe and the Spanish peninsula point to sunken cities with monumental
) elements to it. As of course there is still the case of Easter Island
) monuments- how could these have been created or moved into place. "Physical
) theories" are being put forward but ancient ones also are provocative even
) to the like of Arthur Clarke.
)
) Steiner may have taken the details of these historical times to a new level
) but there are many "rational people" who are convinced that the final word
) is not over of this subject.
)
) As for life on other planets, perhaps we should not touch this one yet. But
) let us be reminded that we occupy a mere sliver of space and time as part
) of electro-magnetic spectrum and are we so bold to presume that a rational
) being cannot exist because it lacks physical components to function in.
) Shades of Star Trek but Star Trek comes far later in time than pre existing
) and consistent descriptions of "light form or radiant" beings throughout
) history. Extreme doubt of this has only arisen in the last 200 years or so
) yet this "superstition and relgio-spiritual" theory has existed as recorded
) "fact" for over 4 thousand years. Either they were imagining things or we
) are not seeing the "same reality". That all the angelic sightings and
) interventions now being reported (over the past 25 years) are imaginary or
) illusions is hard to accept in light of first hand reports coming in from
) doctors, airline pilots, policemen, fire fighters, businessmen, mountain
) climbers, etc. Through out the new age books and look to medical reports or
) more serious works on the subject like Colin Wilson.
)
) jeff
)
) auen
) ----- Original Message -----
) From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
) To: "waldorf-critics" (waldorf-critics topica.com)
) Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 8:10 PM
) Subject: Steiner's theories
)
)
))
)) Dottie says:
))
)) Lisa, what I mean to convey is that in my opinion Dr.
)) Steiner spoke objectively about what actions had led
)) different races to be where were in consciousness or
)) community at that given time and why he saw it that
)) way.
))
))
)) Lisa (still trying to get it!) says: But Dottie, don't you see how one
)) cannot have it both ways? Steiner cannot be "objectively" stating
) something
)) the "way he saw it." If he is stating something the "way he saw it," then
) he
)) is giving his SUBJECTIVE take on something .... in other words, HIS
) OPINION,
)) THEORY, whatever you wish to call it.
)) Steiner is no more capable of knowing *definitively* why different
) races
)) are, as you put it, where they were "in consciousness or community at any
)) given time" than is anyone else. (As a matter of fact, you even use the
)) words "in my opinion" above.)
)) Steiner's theories are just that: theories. And some of those theories
)) -- such as his assertion that various races once lived on Atlantis and
) even
)) on other planets -- are so outlandish as to cast a questionable light on
)) others of his theories that, perhaps, are not quite as "out there."
)) Of course, every individual is free to believe whatever he or she
) wants
)) to believe, or what makes sense to that person. I merely make the above
)) statements to ensure that you and I are clear on the difference -- and
) there
)) is a large one! -- between a theory and an established fact.
)) That Steiner had theories that you, Dottie, believe are factual is
) beside
)) the point. You are free to believe, but common sense dictates that you at
)) least distinguish between the two.
))
))
))
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11-May-2001 14:27:02 GMT
From: Anoush Gesarentz (fishnet wish.net)
Subject: Is something wrong with the Digest service?
I have had no delivery for the pasr 2 days. Can anyone help?
Ann
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11-May-2001 15:17:11 GMT
From: Neil Faiman (faiman jlc.net)
Subject: RE: Is something wrong with the Digest service?
Anoush Gesarentz wrote:
)
) I have had no delivery for the pasr 2 days. Can anyone help?
) Ann
Probably your ISP was rejecting e-mail for a while, at which point the
Topica server got into a huff and went away, whining "If that's the way
you're going to be, see if I ever send *you* another message again."
In short, Topica has probably disabled your email delivery status. You
may be able to fix this yourself, or you may need to get a list
moderator to intervene on your half. Try logging in to the Topica web
site (with the user name and password you chose when you joined the
list), go to "my topica", click "Email Addresses" in the menu in the
left column, and see if it offers you an option to reenable your email
account. (If it doesn't, you could probably completely delete and
reenter it.)
-Neil Faiman
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 08:34:50 -0700
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Steiner, etc. on special education
Debra:
I worked in special ed for 13 years. It would be a cold day in hell before
I dropped off my DS child at Waldorf's door. Think of Hansel and Grettel.
The candy house is beautiful, but once inside, well, it is a completely
different story. Read on.
***
"The girl L.K. in class 1...is one of those cases that are occurring
more and more frequently where children are born and human forms
exist which actually, with regard to the highest member the ego, are
not human at all but are inhabited by beings who do not belong to the
human race...They are very different from human beings where
spiritual matters are concerned. For instance they can never memorise
sentences, only words. I do not like speaking about these things, as
there is considerable opposition about this. Just imagine what people
would say if they heard that we are talking about human beings who
are not human beings. Nevertheless these are facts. Furthermore,
there would not be such a decline of culture if there were a strong
enough feeling for the fact that some people, the ones who are
particularly ruthless, are not human beings at all but demons in
human form.
"But do not let us broadcast this. There is enough opposition
already. Things like this give people a terrible shock. People were
frightfully shocked when I had to say that a quite famous university
professor with a great reputation had had a very short period between
death and re-birth and was a re-incarnated negro scientist.
"But don't let us publicise these things."
[Steiner, Rudolf. Conferences with the Teachers of the Waldorf School
in Stuttgart 1923 to 1924: Volume Four: Being to the end of Dr.
Steiner's visits to the School. (1924) Trans. Pauline Wehrle. Forest
Row, U.K.: Steiner Schools Fellowship Publications, 1989 pp. 36-37.]
And recently Rene Querido, one of the leaders of the Anthroposophical
movement, retired director of Rudolf Steiner College, advised
speculating on the past lives of students:
"Rudolf Steiner urged us as members of the Anthroposophical Society,
shortly after the re-forging of the Society in 1923/24, to attempt
seriously to identify the karmic stream to which we belong...It
appears that those souls described by Rudolf Steiner as "Platonic"
were mainly in incarnation during the Mystery of Golgotha, whereas
those characterized as Aristotelian beheld the events of Golgotha in
the spiritual world, between death and rebirth....[I]t is not only a
matter for the individual teacher. We have to consider that the
children entrusted to our care-to the extent that they, too, belong
to one of these three streams-will, in the course of their
development at school, manifest quite different characteristics in
relation to the central Christ event."
[Querido, Ren=E9 M. The Esoteric Background of Waldorf Education: The
Cosmic Christ Impulse. Fair Oaks, CA: Rudolf Steiner College Press,
1995. p. 81]
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 15:38:37 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: playing/was reading etc. (was: anthros, Nazis, and us)
Liz wrote:
)I spent ten years of my life either in
)free schools where we played all day long, or travelling
)with my parents through the Middle East and Africa, during
)which time my parents unschooled me. When I was eleven I
)went to my first traditional school in Holland. I barely
)spoke Dutch. Within twelve months I had not only learned
)Dutch but I had also scored high enough in the examinations
)to go to the local Gymnasium, academically the most
)challenging schools in the country. Both my brothers also
)did very well. When we moved to Germany we went to a German
)Gymnasium and had to learn German also from scratch.
)We all did very well academically despite having spent most
)of our elementary years only doing what was fun. Children
)are designed to learn.
Thanks for describing this, Liz, that's very interesting. I don't doubt it
can work. I have to say I don't think it would work for all children, but
we're off topic I guess. (I'm curious how they "unschooled" you. I bet your
parents provided and encouraged all sorts of learning opportunities.) It
sounds like you had a wonderful childhood and I can see why you would want
to recreate it for your own kids.
)So what can I say. When the teachers at my son's school
)told me that children are too young to choose for
)themselves, all I could say was that from my own experience
)I know that not to be true.
On the whole Waldorf business of limiting childrens' choices, I think again
it's just too rigid a formula. It's more individual than this. Probably
there are some kids who are overwhelmed by making choices and feel more
secure if you lay their clothes out for them, set the food on the table
without asking their preferences etc., and settle happily into routines.
Others are fiercely determined to do things their own way and are really
chafing under the the Waldorf "teacher always knows best/it's 10:00 so now
we have our oatmeal" thing.
I think the idea that good parenting means limiting choices appeals to
insecure parents. I don't say this to be judgmental since I was about as
insecure a new parent as you can be. It's comforting to have a formula,
especially if they promise you it will mean no tantrums or fits. Of course
it doesn't work, at least with some kids. (And I certainly don't mean to say
parents should never set limits, only that applied as a rigid formula
"children should not make choices" it doesn't work.)
I have to say the few Waldorf families I know who really were strictly
limiting choices did have very docile, pleasant, cooperative children. They
come in your house and find a toy and play, they don't ask for anything or
follow you around, when you say it's time to eat they sit with their hands
folded and wait for what you put in front of them. They don't say, "I don't
like that," or ask you to cut the crusts off their sandwich, or rummage
around in your refrigerator etc., like so many kids. (On the other hand
Waldorf teachers have a very specific apple-peeling ritual which Waldorf
kids will look at you like there's something wrong with you if you don't
peel an apple that way.)
I can see the appeal. But it would make me a little nervous there might be a
price to pay later for all this compliant behavior, though.
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 08:46:22 -0700
From: "Steve Premo" (steve premofine.com)
Subject: Re: Judaism as "Christ-optional megalomania" (was "Kneejerk" by earlyfire)
On 11 May 2001, at 3:00, Diana Winters wrote:
) Just wondered if anyone read far enough in the 27K post from Harvey "early
) fire" to catch the reference to Judaism as "Christ-optional megalomania":
)
) Harvey writes that we (presumably he means the US):
) )continue as a country to refuse to censor the contemporary Israelis )for
) )dressing up in Reptilian Nazi Attitudes as they continue to )escalate the
) )persecution of Palestineans, imagining, still fantasizing )in the tragedy
) )of their collective 3000-year old Christ-optional )megalomania
Holy cow! I hadn't read his bizarre tirade carefully enough to catch
that. OK, I barely read it at all, as it was so obviously deranged. But
this is really offensive.
But maybe if we read the whole of Harvey's writings in context, from a
spiritual point of view, we'll understand that the quote, in the context
of Harvey's intent, really does not reflect bigotry at all, but some sort
of spiritual reality.
Naaaaaaaaah. Don't think so. This is bigotry, pure and simple.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"There is a right and a wrong in the Universe and
that distinction is not difficult to make." - Superman
http://www.premofine.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 15:45:07 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Bea: Going to a Michael Hall open day ...
Bea wrote:
)there is funny philosophy about the helper not being too
)involved with the children.
yes, I was one of those "helpers" who was quite explictly asked not to
involve myself with the children so much. Do not have personal relationships
with them. I took it pretty personally until I understood that truly what
they want from an assistant is to sweep the floor, slice fruit, knit, tie
shoes, smile angelically, DON'T TALK because you will say the wrong thing
("awaken" the children, intellectualize them, make them aware of themselves
as individuals, etc.)
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 08:53:21 -0700
From: "Steve Premo" (steve premofine.com)
Subject: Re: my education vs Steiner's
On 11 May 2001, at 8:50, Clara Paix wrote:
) I suppose I made it very clear that ENPHASES HAD
) BEEN ADDED (when I wrote: "emphases added...")
)
) The purpose of adding enphasis when you quote
) somebody else=B4s words is to indicate to the reader
) what specific part of the text you are referring
) to.
Quite correct. I do legal research and writing for a living, and that is
precisely the way to do it. Quote enough to give the context for the
statement that you're talking about, add emphasis to the part to which you=
are referring, and write "(Emphasis added.)" at the end of the quote.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"There is a right and a wrong in the Universe and
that distinction is not difficult to make." - Superman
http://www.premofine.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 09:03:38 -0700
From: "Steve Premo" (steve premofine.com)
Subject: Re: objective/subjective -- I'm confused, Dottie!
On 10 May 2001, at 21:58, Lisa Ercolano wrote:
) Regarding what Steiner said about the Jewish people having "outlived" their
) "usefulness," Dottie says:
)
) ((Give me a break. You
) want to connect it to racism go on ahead. However it
) is not the Truth. He was making an objective
) observation not a subjective one. ))
)
) Lisa (scratching her head in bewilderment): Huh? How can one *not* connect
) such a statement to racism?...
) Saying a group of people has outlived its usefulness IS racist. A small
) child would see that as a racist statement.
Yes, a small child would see that it is a racist statement. But someone
who is willing to rationalize *any* statement by a "spiritual leader" in a
non-offensive way can find a way, in the follower's own mind, to "see it
in the total context of the person's writings" and "know" that the person
who spoke these racist words was not truly racist.
The great thing about this debate is that it shows how far Steiner's
followers will go to deny that he had character flaws. Sure, they'll
admit that he's human and had flaws, but when one is pointed up, they say,
"That's not a flaw. You're just misunderstanding him." Yeah, right.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"There is a right and a wrong in the Universe and
that distinction is not difficult to make." - Superman
http://www.premofine.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 09:39:02 -0700
From: "jeff auen" (pacbay home.com)
Subject: Re: Steiner's theories
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0086_01C0D9FE.3680B8A0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lisa,
Thank you for kind dismissal.
Your words speak more loudly than mine to your total lack of =
discrimination in the work all these figures and philosophy in general.. =
Those who have actually read and studied (not Cliff notes version) of =
all those mentioned - and can think for themselves - know the faults and =
failings of each (even Plato, dare we say- the hater of all arts since =
they corrupt the perception of the truth). Open minded people and =
scholars like Ken Wilbur can see when such people hit the mark in =
regards to verifying universal truths or miss terribly. Human perfection =
is not the issue. Dismissal judgment is never the substitute for the =
hard work it takes to appreciate the value of someone's contributions =
and also allow for errors and live with controversy.=20
I would venture to challenge anyone to sit down read Isis Unveiled or =
the Secret Doctrine and imagine a how crafty someone must be to create =
these works complete with an abundance of references from cross cultural =
sources. And then imagine trying to create such an opus oneself. I doubt =
if 1 in million could do it. This is not say that I totally accept or =
embrace her. She was a troubled and difficult personality and made many =
mistakes in her life and works.
As for frauds, we must include then more well known and acceptable =
people like Descartes - he rarely left his bed and did most of his work =
in geometry and philosophy in the prone position.. But to be a =
rationalist and to affirm the existence of the "soul" is fraudulent. We =
better add Kepler to the list, poor misguided astronomical scientist and =
mathematician, he was also an astrologer- whoops- a fraud. Or =
Swedenborg - a brilliant and respected scientist of his age (until those =
strange bumps in the night disturbed his sleep and he found himself =
conversing with angels and visiting celestial lands).Rationalism and =
mysticism simply cannot co-exist. And, of course George Patton simply =
could not function as military leader since he firmly believed and =
experienced reincarnation while in France; and we cannot leave out =
Emerson- certainly he will corrupt the youth in high school- he was a =
transcendentalist, advocated reincarnation and karma but could not be an =
admired "rational person".=20
Frauds unite.
=20
Jeff=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
To: (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 6:49 AM
Subject: Re: Steiner's theories
) Please refrain from mention "Madame" Blavatsky and Edgar Cayce in the =
same
) breath as you mention Plato.
)=20
) Blavatsky was, in my opinion (and clearly that of other clear-thinking
) people) a monumental fake and con artist. Cayce, well, in my opinion =
not
) much better.
)=20
) Mentioning Blavatsky and Cayce almost guarantees that, at least as far =
as I
) am concerned, your arguments will be dismissed out of hand.
)=20
) Besides, my point to Dottie was not whether or not what Steiner said =
was
) true or not. I intended simply to point out to Dottie that what =
Steiner put
) forth were *theories*, and not, as she insisted, objective truth.
)=20
) Lisa
)=20
) ----------
) )From: jeff auen (pacbay home.com)
) )To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) )Subject: Re: Steiner's theories
) )Date: Fri, May 11, 2001, 12:23 AM
) )
)=20
) ) Lisa,
) )
) ) As you said, that Steiner had theories that you, Dottie, believe are =
factual
) ) is beside the point - but that is point. If Steiner were the only =
one who
) ) ever mentioned Atlantis or life on "other planets" one may have a =
good wacko
) ) case but many others - Plato, Blavatsky, Cayce et. al =
independently spoke
) ) of far distant lands and cultures predating ancient Egypt and =
Cro-Magnon
) ) times by many thousands of years. They and such historical figures =
as
) ) Augustine, Plotinus,Swendenborg, various Catholic Saints, Joseph =
Smith,
) ) Martin Luther claimed aslo that non physical beings exist and live =
away
) ) from the earth..
) )
) ) There continues to a lack of solid evidence as of yet about Altantis =
and
) ) Lemuria but many interesting archeological finds off the coast of =
Bimini,
) ) Europe and the Spanish peninsula point to sunken cities with =
monumental
) ) elements to it. As of course there is still the case of Easter =
Island
) ) monuments- how could these have been created or moved into place. =
"Physical
) ) theories" are being put forward but ancient ones also are =
provocative even
) ) to the like of Arthur Clarke.
) )
) ) Steiner may have taken the details of these historical times to a =
new level
) ) but there are many "rational people" who are convinced that the =
final word
) ) is not over of this subject.
) )
) ) As for life on other planets, perhaps we should not touch this one =
yet. But
) ) let us be reminded that we occupy a mere sliver of space and time =
as part
) ) of electro-magnetic spectrum and are we so bold to presume that a =
rational
) ) being cannot exist because it lacks physical components to function =
in.
) ) Shades of Star Trek but Star Trek comes far later in time than pre =
existing
) ) and consistent descriptions of "light form or radiant" beings =
throughout
) ) history. Extreme doubt of this has only arisen in the last 200 years =
or so
) ) yet this "superstition and relgio-spiritual" theory has existed as =
recorded
) ) "fact" for over 4 thousand years. Either they were imagining things =
or we
) ) are not seeing the "same reality". That all the angelic sightings =
and
) ) interventions now being reported (over the past 25 years) are =
imaginary or
) ) illusions is hard to accept in light of first hand reports coming in =
from
) ) doctors, airline pilots, policemen, fire fighters, businessmen, =
mountain
) ) climbers, etc. Through out the new age books and look to medical =
reports or
) ) more serious works on the subject like Colin Wilson.
) )
) ) jeff
) )
) ) auen
) ) ----- Original Message -----
) ) From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
) ) To: "waldorf-critics" (waldorf-critics topica.com)
) ) Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 8:10 PM
) ) Subject: Steiner's theories
) )
) )
) ))
) )) Dottie says:
) ))
) )) Lisa, what I mean to convey is that in my opinion Dr.
) )) Steiner spoke objectively about what actions had led
) )) different races to be where were in consciousness or
) )) community at that given time and why he saw it that
) )) wa