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-- Topica Digest -- issue 110
Re: Collection of PLANS lies and deceptive quoting - update
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: Steffi in Finland
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: The Most Famous Thing Eugene Schwartz Said...
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
Re: The Most Famous Thing Eugene Schwartz Said...
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: Collection of PLANS lies and deceptive quoting - update
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
Re: The Most Famous Thing Eugene Schwartz Said...
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
Re: Still on advent: the cultural bias
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
Re: The Most Famous Thing Eugene Schwartz Said...
By dingman mindspring.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 12:54:35 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Collection of PLANS lies and deceptive quoting - update
Dan, on Jelle's list of "PLANS lies":
[Jelle:]
)L2 John Morehead stating that Lucifer is a religious figure in
))Waldorf education. This was also in a PLANS press release.
[Dan:]
)Eugene Schwartz said that, in a pamphlet published by Rudolf Steiner
)College. We also have collaboration in a list posting from a parent
)who was told that the reason her school's faculty was doing a "dance
)to Lucifer" was because he is "the light-bearer."
And you can have all the corroboration you like from me, because in
attending Waldorf faculty meetings I also heard explanations of Lucifer's
importance in inspiring Waldorf teachers. (Lucifer provides the passion, the
drama, the intensity; but you mustn't overindulge, and you must always
balance him with Ahriman.)
re: "Waldorf salad with Aryan mayonnaise"
[Dan:]
)I don't censor the articles we reprint, nor do I censor your
)postings, Jelle. PLANS provides a free-speech forum (because
)Anthroposophy would not). Toos Jeurissen is not a professional
)writer. Second-hand quoting is lousy scholarship, as is putting
)together parts of a text without indicating the splicing. I don't
)think the sense of Steiner's thoughts was distorted thereby, however.
I went over the article, and Jelle's complaints about it, about a month ago,
but never finished what I was writing. I'll try to finish it soon. In short,
my conclusion is the same as Dan's: the author Jeurissen cited made quoting
errors, and Jeurissen reproduced them, probably not having checked the
original. The errors do not, however, distort Steiner, IMO.
[Jelle:]
)D2 Dan Dugan selectively quotes Steiner critic Landau, leaving out
))a more positive part.
And I've also rebutted this one, showing that whether the part left out was
"positive" is a matter of interpretation. The "positive" part had me
positively shuddering.
Diana
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 13:02:22 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Steffi in Finland
[Dan to Steffi:]
)Military trainers say that training in absolute obedience prepares for
) )leadership. I don't think so
[Steffi:]
)A: You don't seem to have studied their exact teaching-plan. At
))least in our Steiner-school they do follow it and I have more
))critics of absence of obedience....
[Dan:]
)Not my logic, that's military logic; I don't think so, either.
)According to Steiner, from age 7 to 14 the child is supposed to live
)in reverence for authority. After the birth of the astral body at
)puberty the child is ready to make decisions. I compare this to the
)military logic.
If I'm following this correctly, it's a familiar scenario to me from Waldorf
schools. The teacher is gamely trying to get the kids to "revere her as an
authority," and the result is the kids (who are probably not being raised
that way at home) go wild. Thus the parents, ironically, are probably
criticizing the "absence of obedience," complaining the teacher can't manage
the class.
Diana
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 15:43:00 +0100
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: The Most Famous Thing Eugene Schwartz Said...
Diana wrote:
) [Sune wrote:]
) )For that stage; the conscious, 'clairvoyant' experience of the )etheric'
) )world, Steiner used the technical term 'Imagination', not to )be confused
) )with what normally is termed 'imagination', even if they )are related to
) )one another.
)
) and I jumped in, disrupting Sune's thread, which he preferred would go
) somewhere else,
You're quite wrong; I don't and didn't consider the thread, to which my
posting was a contribution, to be 'my' thread. What I referred to with
what I wrote as 'Trying to keep to the thread of my posting' was that I
tried to keep my posting somewhat directly related to Paul's questions,
that it tried to give a possible answer to.
It's quite OK for threads to go somewhere else. I only in passing tried
to point out the different meanings of the 'technical' term
'Imagination' as used by Steiner in relation to a stage of
'supeersensible' knowledge, and the colloquial term 'imagination' as it
is used in Waldorf prospects as I know them, as I was aware of Sharon's
confusion of the two.
) and complained that parents should be told it is
) "Imagination" rather than "imagination" that Waldorf aims to cultivate in
) children.
You're completely wrong, I think. Waldorf education does not aim at
cultivating 'Imagination' in children. Trying to do that would be
completely irresponsible. 'Imagination' as a systematic term, in the way
it is used in anthroposophy, refers to something that consciously only
can be developed properly by mature, balanced adults.
'Imagination' is a state of 'supersensible' experience referring to what
you experience as a result of - without any external aids - having
developed your ability to consciously, repeatedly and self willed form
inner pictures in such a way that they, after first being mainly
subjectively formed, become ever more objective, as they develop and
mature.
For this to happen, you must aquire full self control over your
thinking, your feelings and your will. You must also develop a number of
soul qualities necessary for among other things avoiding letting
anything of your personal wishes float into the pictures that can be
described as 'Imaginations'.
The term 'Imagination' refers to the basic quality of the experience,
being of 'visual' pictorial character, transforming your vision and
developing and deepening your inner 'seeing' ability as a balance to
your external 'seeing'. To do it objectively, you must get full control
over your 'seeing', learning both to fully control if to 'see' and not
to 'see' in relation to your external 'seeing' and your inner 'seeing'.
In the Eastern tradition, this full control of your both external and
inner vision is symbolized by the monkey putting its hand before the
eyes.
It is my impression that even most striving 'anthroposophists' aquire
very little even of this first direct supersensible state of direct
experience and knowledge. I haven't either.
The 'second' and 'third' stages in principal of 'supersensible'
experience and knowledge refer to a corresponding transformation of
'hearing' into 'Inspiration' and of 'tasting' into 'Intuition' in the
sense Steiner used them.
Neither of these stages or the direct self willed efforts leading to
them belong in the life of not fully grown ups and bringing them into
lives of not grown ups would be irresponsible as they would endanger
their normal and proper development.
I think the very great majority of Waldorf teachers are quite aware of
and mostly have a quite clear instinct about what belongs in the life of
growing children and adolescents and what only belongs in the life of
the adult.
Of the spectrum of views, perspectives and basic attitudes in the
anthroposophical movement, some - I think - at times and in different
forms tend flow into the waldorf movement in an irresponsible, immature
way, disrespectful of the inner freedom sphere of the pupils and their
parents, as for example coming to expression in the book on 'Sleep' by
Audrey McAllen and a number of the works by Whitehead in Australia.
It is - I think - one of the basic tasks of Waldorf teacher training to
make the line very clear to the future waldorf teachers, concerning what
belongs to the life in the children and adolescents in Waldorf schools
and what only as a possibility belongs in the life of the adult.
) )The word 'imagination' in Waldorf prospects as i know of them does )_not_
) )refer to the 'anthroposophical' term 'Imagination' in the sense )of being a
) )stage of knowledge of the 'supersensible world' or seeing )'mental pictures
) )of the vegetative soul of the universe'. It refers to
) )'imagination in the normal, broad sense of the word.
)
) I suppose it is "Imagination" for the grown-ups, and "imagination" for the
) children, with the hope that the one will lead to the other, eventually.
It lies completely outside the sphere of acceptible 'wishes' for Waldorf
teachers to 'wish' for the pupils at Waldorf schools to develop
'Imagination' as grown ups, I think. That belongs completely to the
freedom sphere of the adult, doing it or not doing it.
) Keep in mind that I, at least, do not actually believe this will work; my
) concern is more that they devote so much time to their spiritual exercises
) that they tend to leave out things like reading and writing.
If any significant number of the pupils at waldorf schools had not
developed the ability to read and write on passing from grade 2 to grade
3, I'd be bothered too. I don't think that is the case.
) However, I would be a little worried about these children seeing "beings."
) I'd ask for a second (non-anthroposophic) opinion if my child started
) describing "beings" to me, if he didn't seem to be aware that these beings
) were imaginary.
In general I maybe would tend to agree with you. But I also think it is
important to be aware of the possible complexity of the problem.
One recent work dealing with some related problems of children in a
possible long term perspective is Carol Bowman: Childrens Past Lives. (+
subtitle) Bantam Books 1997, that seems to do some good work in
describing and discussing the problem of understanding some problems
appearing in the lives of children that seem difficult to immediately
understand in terms of their experiences in their 'present' life. I just
saw the book shortly yesterday, and haven't read it. Seems there is a
site related to it; http://www.childpastlives.org/
What it describes is one of the things that seem to support Steiner's
impression that ever more people, as a result of their increasingly
individualised lives develop in such a way that they develop remains as
individualised memories also increasingly in the following, present and
future lives.
) Sounds like these children, at least, are doing the
) "Imagination" thing rather than normal childhood "imagination."
I agree, and not only 'Imagination' but also 'Inspiration' in the sense
of also 'hearing' what the beeings 'say'. But that - as I preliminarily
understand it - probably in a number of cases then is a long term
effect, having to do with what they did and experienced further back in
history, and not with any direct inner work in this life, or having done
anything special or strange at a waldorf school.
What Waldorf schools in their ways foster and should foster is different
aspects of 'imagination', not those aspects of developing 'Imagination'
that go beyond 'imagination'.
Regards,
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 17:36:52 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: The Most Famous Thing Eugene Schwartz Said...
Sune,
There is lots I would like to respond to in your post about Imagination
versus imagination, but I'm short of time now. This part about past lives
I'd like to address quickly - more later:
)One recent work dealing with some related problems of children in a
)possible long term perspective is Carol Bowman: Childrens Past Lives.
As it happens, I have read this book (well, parts of it). My mother-in-law
gets into this kind of thing, and presented all the women in the family with
a copy of this book a couple of Christmases ago. (Believing, correctly in
the case of this family, that the men would never sit still for such a
thing.)
The idea of past lives is very interesting, but there was nothing in that
book to convince me. These people seem very gullible at best. Here's an
example that stuck in my mind: The author's little boy told her that he had
been "betrothed" to a princess a long time ago, or some such, and she found
his use of an archaic term like "betrothed" very significant. She was sure
she'd never taught him such a word. How could he use language like this if
he hadn't actually lived during a time when people spoke like this?
Give me a break! Unless he never watches TV, movies, or even plays with
another child who does, he could easily get it from Disney or Saturday
morning cartoons (she doesn't have any association with Waldorf, I don't
think). Or from story books! The author mentions having been sick for
several weeks and sending her kids to stay with her parents. How can she
know every story or show he may have been exposed to there, or at a
neighbor's house, or a babysitter read it to him, etc.? Pretty silly, if you
ask me. This, anyway, is Bowman's type of "evidence" for past lives, and I
suspect this is representative of the popular books on reincarnation. Once
you are looking for "evidence," you are likely to find it.
I have always found the stories of small children who speak other languages,
that the parents say they can't have been exposed to in the present life,
more interesting. However, these stories do not mesh with Steiner's
statements about reincarnation, as he states that you don't bring language
with you from one incarnation to the next. I asked an anthroposophist about
this once, but it wasn't something he'd given any thought to, and he had no
explanation.
Diana
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 18:18:07 +0100
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Collection of PLANS lies and deceptive quoting - update
Dan Dugan wrote:
) Sune, you wrote,
) )But keeping up the picture of the Anthroposopical Society as a 'secret
) )cult' demands arguments, and not being able to keep it up with the
) )traditional 'arguments' about 'cults' and 'gurus' at all points, even if
) )false, would make the 'card house' of PLANS, 'fall' together, as Debra
) )succinctly(?) has expressed it ...
)
) I'll just pick examples that relate directly to Waldorf. Steiner said
) to the Waldorf teachers,
)
) "Esoteric matters of any kind, even if they were disreputable, have
) always been treated confidentially. This has always been so, down
) through the ages." [Steiner, 1922, CT-2 p. 47]
This describes history and is not an argument for it to be continued
today. See below.
) "As far as the parents' evening is concerned I would say 'have it';
) but without me. Things might be said which I could not refute, if I
) were to hear something I could not defend. I cannot say things that I
) say here to the parents." [Steiner, 1923, CT-3 p. 7]
What was the context of his comment? My guess is it had to do with time;
that the parents' evening not would allow for the time needed to lay the
conceptual foundation for motivating everything that was being done. You
have dedicated 10 years to studying anthroposophy, yet still have things
like
"Steiner's theory of child development (is) based on reincarnation of
"the etheric body," (and) "the astral body, ..."
at PLANS' website. If you still don't understand the basic error of this
central 'explanatory' sentence on WE at PLANS' site after 10 years, as
you recently indicated that you didn't (or really don't bother to as it
pushes your effort to make anthroposophy and WE stand out as 'weird' and
'wacko'), what do you expect parents who know nothing about
anthroposophy to understand in one evening of the possible
anthroposophical _motivations_ for doing different things at different
stages or in different grades?
For his overall view and long term strife, see
http://www.elib.com/Steiner/Articles/SuperKnow.phtml
Steiner (published essay in 1916):
SUPERSENSIBLE KNOWLEDGE:
Its Secrecy in the Past and Publication in our Time
(summarizing at end:)
"We are living in an age when supersensible knowledge can no longer
remain the secret possession of a few. No, it must become the common
property of all, in whom the meaning of life within this age is stirring
as a very condition of their soul's existence. In the unconscious depths
of the souls of men this need is already working, far more widespread
than many people dream. And it will grow, more and more insistently, to
the demand that the science of the Supersensible shall be treated on a
like footing with the science of Nature."
Since his death in 1925, a great and probably representative part of all
his public as well as non-public lectures for members of the
Anthroposophical Society, for members of the Esoteric School (1904-14)
as well as in the 1990s' all lectures held for the First Class of the
School for spiritual science in 1924 have been published, making up ca
350 titles (books, collections of articles and essays, and lecture
series, all sorts of discussions in greater or smaller groups, like the
small group of teachers in the first waldorf school, a number of
illustrations made during lectures, with efforts to also publish the ca
1500 different sketches for eurythmy forms for all sorts of poetry and
music, excerpts from his many note books ...).
It's very difficult to see what your argument is.
What more do you want?
Interviews with all the thousand of people he had private discussions
with? Documentation of all conversations he had with his wife? All
protocols from all meetings he took part in? All telegrams ...?
) and for a more up-to-date view,
)
) "Consider another situation, where a child is being thoroughly
) discussed in the presence of the school doctor. This situation, too,
) demands a careful safeguarding from outside interference. It is an
) intimate affair, and only those should really be admitted to the
) discussion who are personally pedagogically involved with the child
) (in a narrow and in a wide sense.)
This is the custom in all professional therapeutic contexts I know of.
) Further, matters pertaining to the
) use of certain textual material (thoughts, quotations, verses, etc.)
) which is available to the Waldorf school teacher as an aid for his
) practical and inner development as a teacher, are another example
) where a safeguard is needed from indiscriminate sharing." [Leist,
) Manfred. Parent Participation in the Life of a Waldorf School. Great
) Barrington, MA: Association of Waldorf Schools of North America,
) 1987, p. 10]
Why not put them on the list for dicussion? I'm sure you have them in
the 50 Steiner titles and 50 other non-Steiner titles you have on you
bookshelves.
Only those d-d Main Lesson Books missing ... :-)
Regards,
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 21:20:58 +0100
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: The Most Famous Thing Eugene Schwartz Said...
Diana wrote:
) Sune,
) There is lots I would like to respond to in your post about Imagination
) versus imagination, but I'm short of time now. This part about past lives
) I'd like to address quickly - more later:
... you never let me rest, demanding that I think seriously every day
...
Can't we make it more like 'correspondence chess'; you write your
comment, then let me think for a week, before I answer ... :-)) ?
Thinking is hard work, and trying to do some serious work in answering
not only you, but also Lisa, Dan, Debra and a number of others takes
some time. :-) (puh)
Have to do some other work and some dishes in between too ...
Happy New Year!
Sune
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 22:53:05 +0100
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Still on advent: the cultural bias
dingman mindspring.com wrote:
) Hey Sune another wink - are you forgetting about his astral travels
) neptune, jupiter, the sun, the moon, venus and mars.
Tried to restrain my comments to known movements in Euclidian space ...
) He did stay in
) this galaxy right ;).
Can't say for sure. Some rumours (admittedly from some critics ...) say
he was seen in Andromeda once, ... by Sharon :-))
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 19:00:46 -0500
From: Newpaul (dingman mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: The Most Famous Thing Eugene Schwartz Said...
Sune Nordwall wrote:
)
) Diana Winters wrote:
)
) Me:
) ) )For that stage; the conscious, 'clairvoyant' experience of the )etheric'
) ) )world, Steiner used the technical term 'Imagination', not to )be confused
) ) )with what normally is termed 'imagination', even if they )are related to
) ) )one another.
)
) Diana:
) ) This is a perfect example of where it would be nice if Waldorf teachers
) ) explained their definition of "Imagination" to prospective parents. Parents
) ) are told Waldorf aims to help the child develop their imagination.
)
) Trying to keep to the thread of my posting, I only shortly pointed out
) in passing that the term 'Imagination' as a systematical 'technical'
) term in anthroposophy, referring to a stage of experience of the
) 'supersensible' world has the _specific_ content I tried to describe, as
) I see it, _in the context I described_, as _different_ to the way the
) word and term 'imagination' is used normally _also_ in waldorf contexts,
) including prospects about WE.
)
) The word 'imagination' in Waldorf prospects as i know of them does _not_
) refer to the 'anthroposophical' term 'Imagination' in the sense of being
) a stage of knowledge of the 'supersensible world' or seeing 'mental
) pictures of the vegetative soul of the universe'. It refers to
) 'imagination in the normal, broad sense of the word. But I see Sharon's
) confusion has spread even to your enlightened soul ... [friendly :-))]
)
)Newpaul
Sune in the context of my experience, "imagination" in Waldorf does
refer to the stage of knowledge of the supersensible world. If it
referred to the normal broad sense of the word wouldn't there be
evidence from the children and in their lesson books that they were
allowed to _use_ their imagination and not be forced to copy every
drawing or lesson from what the teacher does on the black board. I have
kids in 5th grade, and I have yet to see -anything- in their class work
where they were encouraged to use their imagination or to express
themselves. Further, my kids are board with the lack of self expressive
projects. My 3rd grader has even said he would rather draw at home
where he can do whatever he wants. I have a great picture of a man made
from red hot peppers on my refrigerator and a picture of Santa Claus and
his rain deer being blown out of the sky by a SCUD missile. My all time
favorite was a picture of a dragon falling through the night sky to
earth. His scales were made with hard *black lines.* What a blessing.
Sorry, but for the parents and kids I know, the Waldorf definition of
imagination has everything to do with making wet on wet blobs on
paper(no lines) while bypassing all cognitive thinking skills. It has
nothing to do with art or self expression or imagination in the
traditional sense.
Thanks for the anthro definition of imagination at least I have a
reference point with which to understand the type of education my kids
are getting.
Happy New Millennium
Newpaul
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 110
-- Topica Digest -- issue 111
Re: PLANS restricting freedom of educational choice to well-offs
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
nurturing and cultivating imagination and the arts in WE
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
Re: nurturing and cultivating imagination and the arts in WE
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
Re: nurturing and cultivating imagination and the arts in WE
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
Re: Steffi in Finland
By Rechomba cs.com
Waldorf "reverence" for Lucifer
By irisspringflower yahoo.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 23:05:17 +0100
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: PLANS restricting freedom of educational choice to well-offs
dingman mindspring.com wrote:
) Sune I just want to say that I appreciate you. You are very thorough.
Thanks! Try to, when possible.
) My comment was meant as a sarcastic remark and thus I followed it with a
) wink ;). Either my ;) was not understood or I used the wrong symbol.
You didn't and I understood you very well. As I think some actually
believe the basis for what you joked about, especially Ms Lombard, I
thought it worthwhile to answer it in short seriolusly, though.
) Are you a member of first class?
No.
) What can you tell me about it? logged once and read some of the astral
) mantra.
'logged'?
Meaning you participated as member and have been a member of the ASiA?
) who was the first person to discover the verses? How, where,
) when?
Think Robert may be better at answering that.
Regards,
and Happy New Year!
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 14:10:05 +0200
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: nurturing and cultivating imagination and the arts in WE
Newpaul wrote:
) Sune in the context of my experience, "imagination" in Waldorf does
) refer to the stage of knowledge of the supersensible world. If it
) referred to the normal broad sense of the word wouldn't there be
) evidence from the children and in their lesson books that they were
) allowed to _use_ their imagination and not be forced to copy every
) drawing or lesson from what the teacher does on the black board.
That is one possible argument. But I wonder if one does not need to look
at the issue in a wider perspective and look at least at three aspects
of it;
One aspect of encouraging imagination in waldorf schools of course has
to do with giving the children the opportunity to express themselves in
the making of pictures in different forms.
You mention:
) I have
) kids in 5th grade, and I have yet to see -anything- in their class work
) where they were encouraged to use their imagination or to express
) themselves. Further, my kids are board with the lack of self expressive
) projects. My 3rd grader has even said he would rather draw at home
) where he can do whatever he wants. I have a great picture of a man made
) from red hot peppers on my refrigerator and a picture of Santa Claus and
) his rain deer being blown out of the sky by a SCUD missile. My all time
) favorite was a picture of a dragon falling through the night sky to
) earth. His scales were made with hard *black lines.* What a blessing.
Of course one may take pride and joy in one's children making pictures
of Santa Claus being blown out of the sky by a SCUD missile and a dragon
falling through the night sky to the earth, even if the shooting down of
Santa Claus with a missile or the falling of dragons out of the sky not
primarily is the types of images that Waldorf education try to inspire
and nurture.
But it's one ones kids who made them!
But encouraging 'imagination' in children in the broad sense does not
only mean encouraging the making of pictures. It also entails nurturing
the imagination in a broad artistic sense in terms of nurturing their
imagination with the tales and stories that constitute the treasures of
human cultural evolution, with music and songs and giving them a sense
of the richness of life in nature developing through the rhythms of the
year.
Personally, I find the performing and participation in the making by 3rd
graders of the Advent spiral that Debra described in full in a posting
to be one such rich inspirational nourishment. What experience does it
give the 10 year olds? And how will they think about it later in school
and in life?
I think, when they study astronomy later in the upper grades they will
have a much richer experience of the nature of galaxies, the greatest
observable structures in the universe, where they will recognize what
they experienced as the Advent spiral as 3rd graders.
They will have a feeling how there is an at least potential centre in
all galaxies, at least belonging to the spiral type and how there is a
relation between what can be found as suns/suns as centres of solar
systems and the centre of the spiral galaxies because they have
themselves made the spiral and experienced that there is an inner
relation between the centre of the (spiral) galaxies and the suns as at
least partly centres of solar systems.
They will not only look somewhat distractedly at beautiful pictures of
galaxies in later years, learning their names or astronomical codes, but
also relate to them out of their own childhood experience in the 3rd
grade.
In the lower grades they will (probably) also learn and experience basic
qualities of mathematics and the relation between different numbers and
forms by participating in making and experiencing them themselves, as
simple walking of forms in the class room, concrete mathematics done and
experienced with their foots walking forms.
They will do it experiencing the musical-rhythmical aspect of
mathematics, also letting them understand more concretely how the
planets move at different paces around the sun in our solar system. They
learn in a simple, way in the lower grades to understand some of the
basic relations between numbers, forms, astronomical relations and
musical rhythms, that in one form comes to expression as 'multiplicatory
tables'(?) in mathematics and 'Table of the chemical elements' in
chemistry, depicting the common musical element in both mathematics and
chemistry.
'imagination' (not 'Imagination' in the 'technical' anthroposophical
sense, related to a purely inner activity and primarily the 'seeing'
experience) is nourished in WE in training to experience in an artistic
way the relation between different contexts in terms of music, numbers,
astronomy, light/darkness/colours, forms, symmetries, poetical
expressions, words and sounds as the basic components of language.
They give the basic nourishment for the soul mainly during the first 7
years in school being an experiental basis out of which the concepts and
more theoretical analysis' then are developed in the upper grades, not
only learned as something purely abstract that someone has come up with,
and that they will learn for the tests and then forget, but as something
they can understand because they during the first seven years in school
through their own experience have a relation to.
In the lecture I saw in passing and mentioned in an earlier posting
('The nature of anthroposophy' - and how it can and has inspired
different activities, held in Elberfeld 24 Jan 1922), Steiner points to
the essence of this way of relating art to nature and culture, as he
viewed it:
"What did Goethe say, when he wished once to express his ideal of art in
the most intimate way? He said 'Art is a manifestation of the secret
laws of nature, which without it would never be revealed'. And he also
said significantly, 'The man in whom nature begins to reveal her most
intimate mysteries, feels a deep longing for her most worthy
interpretess, Art'."
I think this maybe points to the way art and imagination is nurtured and
cultivated in WE; art, the arts are used, nurtured and cultivated
primarily as a means of approaching nature and human culture; of
relating to and being the primarily basis, especially in the lower
grades (1-7), for _understanding_ nature and human culture (over the
last almost 10 000 years), not primarily as a means of self-expression.
That may be viewed as a weakness from a perspective of viewing
imagination and the arts _primarily_ as a tool for self-expression.
Maybe that difference and conflict is most pointed in American cultural
contexts, where the expression of ones own personality is one of the
central issues.
To come back to what I wanted to write in the beginning:
I think one needs to see how 'imagination' (not 'Imagination') is
cultivated in WE:
1. It is cultivated not primarily as the formation of inner pictures (as
in 'Imagination') or making of external pictures (as a means of self
expression), but in relation to all the arts in their basic components
and expressions.
2. It is cultivated not only or primarily related to the 'sight'
experience (as in 'Imagination') but as stepwise training of the _tools_
of the arts (even if maybe oil on canvas, or advanced printing
techniques not are included in the lower grades, different printing
techniques come later in the upper grades) in relation to the basic
components of the visual and 'oral' arts; slowly stepwise in different
forms building a basic understanding of their components; light,
colours, forms, rhythms, harmonies and 'melody' an developing the
handicrafts through the grades.
3. It is not cultivated _primarily_ as a tool of self-expression, but as
a tool of _understanding_ nature and the cultures of man and humanity
and in the description and depicting of the patterns, regularities and
qualities of natural phenomena and expressions of human culture, coming
to expression in among other ways the 'Main Lesson Books'.
Sorry if the above may seem 'teacherish'. It's a primary instinct that
made me consider teaching as a profession in youth and difficult to get
rid of ... :-()
Maybe Robert or others can complement, nuance or dispute and argue it.
...
) Thanks for the anthro definition of imagination at least I have a
) reference point with which to understand the type of education my kids
) are getting.
Hopefully the above has made somewhat more clear why I think it's
important to distinguish between the 'imagination' cultivated in WE in
the senses and ways I have tried to some aspects of above, and
'Imagination' in the 'systematical'/'technical' sense it is used by
Steiner and anthroposophy in relation the stage of developing and
cultivating the 'inner sight' of man as a balancing complement to
'external vision', abstractly expressed.
Regards,
and Happy New Millennium!
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 14:30:00 +0100
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: nurturing and cultivating imagination and the arts in WE
Notice that the mail I just sent was dated 01 Aug 2000 instead of 01 Jan
2001 (the reason being prior use of time limited expired shareware for
other purposes and missing the resetting of the date before sending the
mail ...). Hope it does not confuse too many.
Sune
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 14:42:34 +0100
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: nurturing and cultivating imagination and the arts in WE
... also note, Topica does not use 'sent' time (mails in 'Sent' box)
when distributing postings, but local Topica time in depicting the date
and time of mails (mails from the list in 'Inbox').
Forgot the difference between Topica and the former listprovider for the
list, when searching and at first not finding the sent mail in the
'Sent' box.
Sune
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 10:23:37 EST
From: Rechomba cs.com
Subject: Re: Steffi in Finland
In a message dated 12/31/00 8:03:20 AM Eastern Standard Time,
winters_diana hotmail.com writes:
) [Dan to Steffi:]
) )Military trainers say that training in absolute obedience prepares for
) ) )leadership. I don't think so
)
) [Steffi:]
) )A: You don't seem to have studied their exact teaching-plan. At
) ))least in our Steiner-school they do follow it and I have more
) ))critics of absence of obedience....
)
) [Dan:]
) )Not my logic, that's military logic; I don't think so, either.
) )According to Steiner, from age 7 to 14 the child is supposed to live
) )in reverence for authority. After the birth of the astral body at
) )puberty the child is ready to make decisions. I compare this to the
) )military logic.
[Diana]
) If I'm following this correctly, it's a familiar scenario to me from
Waldorf
)
) schools. The teacher is gamely trying to get the kids to "revere her as an
) authority," and the result is the kids (who are probably not being raised
) that way at home) go wild. Thus the parents, ironically, are probably
) criticizing the "absence of obedience," complaining the teacher can't
manage
)
) the class.
Kids are masters of calling BS when they see it.
The emphasis on "reverence", in my experience with a playgroup we got going,
was applied to 3 and 4year olds. The W teacher (K-PreK), who I consider to be
a dogmatist upon reflection, became frustrated when the children would not
behave well through the loooonnnngggggg draaaaawnnn ouuuuuttttt just-so way
of doing everything (I was getting antsy). It struck me as very rigid and I
began to doubt if this teacher of many years knew anything about children of
this age (square peg in a round hole comes to mind).
At the end, we were to take the children away quietly and without
distraction (no talking to other parents or kids, mingling and such) so that
the experience would stay with the child. After a couple of hours of
practicing reverence, unsuccessfully mind you, the children would literally
go bezerk (it's supposed to be a PLAY group).
At home, we teach our children to respect elders in the form of proper
manners. In conversation with adults we emphasize that what they have to say
is important (children can express the obvious, and insights, that often
times escapes our adult minds --"important" also as a self-esteem builder) as
long as they follow the rules of conversation.
As for reverence to authority, I think W puts the cart before the horse.
The task of an educator is to develope the critical thinking skills to learn
how to learn --not blind regurgitation and obeyance. If one wants to be
"revered" as an authority figure then one must earn it from the child through
their own ability to determine that for themselves.
The use for reverence in WE as a means for the child to absorb information
uncritically as schematic building blocks for later comprehension(putiing
aside for now the "significance" of etheric and astral bodies in the
developement of the child's spirit) is, IMO, not age appropriate. For
example, when I read a philosopher I will live in their conceptual world and
suspend my own critical analysis until I have reached some level of
comprehension (sound familiar?). I will go so far as to say that the
suspension of disbelief and critical thinking in the process of
indoctrination into a spiritual philosophy is necessary if thats what you, as
an adult, want to do (here I include the direct experience of the ineffable
that characterizes a religious experience). This presupposes that one can
recognise, when all is said and done, BS when one sees it. And that is
determined by the level of one's ability to think and the possession of the
necessary prior knowledge which enables one to comprehend new knowledge.
Sorry if I'm running off the mouth.
To apply this technique to children results in the development of the
schematics without the necessary skills to comprehend or truly know.It is the
hardwiring of an automaton and reminds me of the jesuit saying: "Give us a
child till the age of seven, then do with him as you will".
Of course some things don't go as planned, particularly when children defy
one's cherished model of development (those unruly beasts! :))
Any thoughts?
Ray
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 09:05:40 -0800 (PST)
From: iris springflower (irisspringflower yahoo.com)
Subject: Waldorf "reverence" for Lucifer
Oh my! A SCHOOL teaching kids to have "respect" for
Lucifer?! It IS "religious" all right--I say NO
public funds for Waldorf schools!! This really angers
me!
So the WE folks I know may actualy "respect" Lucifer?!
You see, before being on this list I didn't know all
these truths about their beliefs. I never thought to
ask them because I wasn't interested in joining them
in their "spiritual" rituals. I HAVE heard of
Satanists, though, and Lucifer and Satan are the SAME!
School is a place to teach kids to LEARN basic skills
and also to teach kids art and music and such!
Parents have a right to send their kids to religious
schools, too, of course. BUT any parent who would
KNOWINGLY let kids learn that "Lucifer is good" is
SICKENING and even evil, IMO! Thanks for reading
this, Happy New Year, Iris
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End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 111
-- Topica Digest -- issue 112
Re: Steffi in Finland
By deborah_kelly yahoo.com
Re: The most famous thing that Eugene Schwartz never said
By c_brostrup-jensen brown.edu
Re: The most famous thing that Eugene Schwartz never said
By c_brostrup-jensen brown.edu
Re: Steffi in Finland
By deborah_kelly yahoo.com
Re: PLANS restricting freedom of educational choice to
well-offs
By c_brostrup-jensen brown.edu
Re: The Most Famous Thing Eugene Schwartz Said...
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: PLANS restricting freedom of educational choice to
well-offs
By c_brostrup-jensen brown.edu
Re: The Most Famous Thing Eugene Schwartz Said...
By deborah_kelly yahoo.com
Re: Yuba River's Advent invitation
By deborah_kelly yahoo.com
Re: Non-Christian Saints discussion on SJU
By deborah_kelly yahoo.com
Re: The most famous thing that Eugene Schwartz never said
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: Public Waldorf schools serving low income families?
By deborah_kelly yahoo.com
RE: The most famous thing that Eugene Schwartz never said
By c_brostrup-jensen brown.edu
Re: Yuba River's Advent invitation
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: Steffi in Finland
By Speckraybill aol.com
Re: Mystery schools
By c_brostrup-jensen brown.edu
Re: Collection of PLANS lies and deceptive quoting - update
By c_brostrup-jensen brown.edu
Re:Waldorf "reverence" for Lucifer
By c_brostrup-jensen brown.edu
Re: Collection of PLANS lies and deceptive quoting - update
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Steiner essay on Lucifer, Ahriman and WW1
By c_brostrup-jensen brown.edu
Re: Steiner essay on Lucifer, Ahriman and WW1
By snell netshel.net
Re: Steiner essay on Lucifer, Ahriman and WW1
By winters_diana hotmail.com
MORE on Lucifer, etc. in schools
By irisspringflower yahoo.com
Off-topic posts by me
By irisspringflower yahoo.com
RE: Waldorf "reverence" for Lucifer
By irisspringflower yahoo.com
RE: Waldorf "reverence" for Lucifer
By faiman jlc.net
RE: Steffi in Finland
By irisspringflower yahoo.com
RE: MORE on Lucifer, etc. in schools
By faiman jlc.net
Re: Steiner essay on Lucifer, Ahriman and WW1
By dingman mindspring.com
Re: Steiner essay on Lucifer, Ahriman and WW1
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 06:19:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Deborah Kelly (deborah_kelly yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Steffi in Finland
) If one wants to be
) "revered" as an authority figure then one must earn
) it from the child through
) their own ability to determine that for themselves.
) The use for reverence in WE as a means for the
) child to absorb information
) uncritically as schematic building blocks for later
) comprehension(putiing
) aside for now the "significance" of etheric and
) astral bodies in the
) developement of the child's spirit) is, IMO, not age
) appropriate.
To apply this technique to children results in
) the development of the
) schematics without the necessary skills to
) comprehend or truly know.It is the
) hardwiring of an automaton and reminds me of the
) jesuit saying: "Give us a
) child till the age of seven, then do with him as you
) will".
)
) Of course some things don't go as planned,
) particularly when children defy
) one's cherished model of development (those unruly
) beasts! :))
)
) Any thoughts?
) Ray
One of the students in school with my daughter now,
told her that he was kicked out of Pleasant Ridge
because he was too unruly. I know this student; he is
one of my daughter's friends. He comes over to the
house sometimes and I trust him with my daughter. He
is always respectful towards me, my daughter and the
other members of our household. However, he does not
simply go along with the what the so-called authority
figures want. In other words he appears to be a free
thinker and I am certain that is why he did not fit
into WE. Now how does that fit in with the karma
stuff? Why wasn't he allowed to follow his karma?
Doesn't what you describe in WE run counter to most
children's karma?
DK
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Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 09:32:55 -0500
From: Chris Brostrup-Jensen (C_Brostrup-Jensen brown.edu)
Subject: Re: The most famous thing that Eugene Schwartz never said
On Fri, 29 Dec 2000, "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com) wrote:
(Sorry for the fact that I'm several days behind. I don't check email from
home over vacation times. I'll try to get back up to speed relatively
quickly!)
)[Lisa wrote:]
) )Well, the Anthro "establishment" and heads of the North American )Waldorf
) )movement certainly seemed to agree with the critics' )interpretation --
) )that Schwartz was admitting that Waldorf schools are )"mystery centers" and
) )that the schools are about "religion."
)
)after I wrote:
) )Yes, "schools" in that phrase refers to the training centers, I
) )think. But considering not only does the first half of the very same
) )sentence refer to "Waldorf education" per se as a "modern mystery," )but
) )also that the entire rest of the speech discusses how wonderful it )is that
) )Waldorf is religious, etc., it seems to me moot whether this )one phrase
) )was interpreted correctly or not by various critics.
)
)What I am saying is, this phrase has been taken out of context of the
)lecture as a whole. Schwartz is in that sentence referring to the teacher
)training centers as "mystery centers," in order to make a point about how
)public school teachers getting a brief training in Waldorf methods are
)getting, he believes, a watered-down version of the better - because more
)anthroposophic, more "mystery centered" - training that teachers get who go
)to the training centers specifically to become Waldorf teachers.
)
)Neil is quite correct that the several passages preceding and following this
)statement are all about teacher training.
)
)The entire rest of the speech, even earlier in the same sentence, is about
)how "Waldorf education" is a "modern mystery." So what if in this paragraph
)he is making a point about teacher training being an initiation? Teacher
)training is an initiation for the teachers; Waldorf ed. is an initiation for
)the children.
)
)I just can't believe this debate goes on. Just read the lecture, folks. It's
)his *entire* point. Picking *one sentence* where "Waldorf as mystery center"
)etc. refers *not* to the children in the schools, but to something else, and
)pretending that therefore Schwartz didn't say exactly this over and over for
)two hours, is unbelievable.
After having read the speech through twice, I got the very strong
impression that Schwartz was talking about Waldorf as a religious
education, one infused with the knowledge and presence of God,
as opposed to a secular education. I don't recall him using the
word "mystery" much in other parts of the speech, nor do I recall
him describing the schools in terms that would be appropriate for
mystery schools. Hopefully we do agree that "religious" and "mystery"
schools are different things?
I'm sure that you have read this talk through considerably more than
twice. I'm not discounting your opinion here. Instead I will read it
through again with your perspective in mind and see if I've missed
something.
)For the critics' interpretation of the overall point of the speech to be
)right, Schwartz doesn't need to have never said anything *else* about
)Waldorf. The two things are not contradictory. Nor do the critics have to
)have correctly deduced the meaning of every sentence in the speech, to have
)understood the point of the lecture.
Absolutely agreed. And given what you said above about how you
understand the speech as a whole, your exasperation makes sense.
So the question has shifted a bit.
BTW, Happy new year/decade/century/millennium to everybody!
Chris
)Diana
Chris Brostrup-Jensen
Father of a 4-year-old at
Meadowbrook Waldorf School
Rhode Island, USA
C_Brostrup-Jensen Brown.edu
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 09:37:13 -0500
From: Chris Brostrup-Jensen (C_Brostrup-Jensen brown.edu)
Subject: Re: The most famous thing that Eugene Schwartz never said
On Fri, 29 Dec 2000, "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com) wrote:
)[Sune:]
) )In that sense, _every_ teachers training as well as every school
) )(waldorf as well as non-waldorf) is a 'mystery school', the main
) )difference being - I think - that waldorf teachers training and waldorf
) )schools to some small extent also lets you become _aware_ of the
) )'mystery'-character of man and nature that normally not only is left in
) )silence and unawareness, but also more or less actively silenced and
) )made unaware.
[Diana]
)Very nice, every teacher training is a mystery school! You can make this
)interesting argument if you like, but I don't think it's the argument
)Schwartz was making.
No, in fact I'd say it is pretty much the direct opposite of Schwartz's
point. It also stretches the definition of "mystery school" way past
the breaking point.
Chris
Chris Brostrup-Jensen
Father of a 4-year-old at
Meadowbrook Waldorf School
Rhode Island, USA
C_Brostrup-Jensen Brown.edu
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 06:42:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Deborah Kelly (deborah_kelly yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Steffi in Finland
)
) Not my logic, that's military logic; I don't think
) so, either.
) According to Steiner, from age 7 to 14 the child is
) supposed to live
) in reverence for authority.
What happens when the authority figure decides to have
sex with the child. Is the child to obey because
he/she is not ready to make certain decisions and is
supposed to revere the authority figure. How does
this differ from what, for example, happened (still
happens) in the Catholic church between priests and
the children over whom they have authority? Doesn't
this sort of obedience to authority actually endanger
children and therefore all of us? What is authority
anyway. Isn't it simply the person with power over
someone else?
DK
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Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 09:43:10 -0500
From: Chris Brostrup-Jensen (C_Brostrup-Jensen brown.edu)
Subject: Re: PLANS restricting freedom of educational choice to
well-offs
On Fri, 29 Dec 2000, Debra Snell (snell netshel.net) wrote:
)Chris,
)
)Thanks for your offer! Here are the public Waldorf school locations that I
)can list off the top of my head. I must be forgetting some. Help me out
)everyone!
)
)Sacramento, CA
)Napa, CA
)Nevada City, CA
)Sonoma, CA
)Citrus Heights, CA
)Novato, CA
)Yreka, CA (not sure of the spelling here. It is pronounced Y-reka. Maybe
)the spelling is different.)
)Chico, CA has one being considered currently.
)
)Flagstaff, Arizona
)????
My difficulty is that I only have the data by county and I don't know what
counties these towns are in. Do you know? Or does someone know of a
good online resource for placing towns in counties?
Chris
Chris Brostrup-Jensen
Father of a 4-year-old at
Meadowbrook Waldorf School
Rhode Island, USA
C_Brostrup-Jensen Brown.edu
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 14:49:03 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: The Most Famous Thing Eugene Schwartz Said...
Happy 01/02/01 to all!
So, before the turn of the century, were were discussing whether it is
"imagination" in Waldorf, as in what children do when they play with their
toys, or is it "Imagination," in Steiner's sense of a clairvoyant ability to
see images of the etheric universe, etc.?
[Sune:]
)different meanings of the 'technical' term 'Imagination' as used by
) )Steiner in relation to a stage of 'supeersensible' knowledge, and the
) )colloquial term 'imagination' as it is used in Waldorf prospects as I
) )know them, as I was aware of Sharon's confusion of the two.
It is convenient to just say Sharon must be confused, but I think I had a
similar experience to Sharon, in being "confused" and disoriented while
observing in Waldorf, and feeling less confused after correlating what I had
observed with what Steiner said.
Paul has aptly noted that what they are doing sure doesn't look like
developing the imagination. Else why are only a few limited types of images
considered appropriate, and anything else a child comes up with is promptly
censored?
Then, there is all this enthusiastic talk about the children who see
"beings," which you agree is about "Imagination" and not "imagination," and
how this is perfectly normal and, if not to be explicitly encouraged,
certainly something they are pleased to see in children. Hardly surprising
a child will talk about angels if everyone around him is babbling about
angels constantly, as Waldorf teachers do, but then the reported
angel-sightings confirm their belief that children are still in close touch
with the spirit world.
In short, Sune, you may say it's not "Imagination" they are up to, but I
say, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck . . .
[Sune on how to develop "Imagination":]
)For this to happen, you must aquire full self control over your
)thinking, your feelings and your will.
Though it's not relevant to whether they're trying to do this with the
children or not, I'd just like to add that I think this is hogwash anyway.
Developing "full self control" over your thinking, your feelings, and your
will is not a human possibility anyway. Good luck to you though. :)
I'm curious, too, Sune, if you plan to answer me about the Bowman book,
which you were hoping provided credible evidence of reincarnation, and which
I pointed out is full of transparent nonsense. Finally, I had so dearly
hoped that you, being the only anthroposophist around to argue with lately,
were going to try to refute my comment that although WE'ers say they don't
teach anthroposophic ideas, this claim is disingenuous because they don't
teach *any* ideas. ???
Diana
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 09:49:44 -0500
From: Chris Brostrup-Jensen (C_Brostrup-Jensen brown.edu)
Subject: Re: PLANS restricting freedom of educational choice to
well-offs
On Fri, 29 Dec 2000, Speckraybill aol.com wrote:
)In a message dated 12/29/2000 8:21:05 AM Pacific Standard Time,
)c_brostrup-jensen brown.edu writes:
)
)
) ) If you can get me a list of the
) ) counties where these schools are located I can get per-capita income rates
) ) for those counties, if that would be interesting to folks. Unfortunately I
) ) don't have available to me income data on a community level, although that
) ) would obviously be much more precise. I think I also have data on the
) ) racial breakdown by county as well, although again that is an awfully
) ) imprecise proxy for actual enrollment rates.
) )
) )
)
)One thing to consider is that the physical location of the school may have
)very little to do with where the attendees come from. I would also like to
)see how many of the immediate local residents' children are enrolled in the
)schools.
)
)In my area, there are a number of "magnet" schools, each with a different
)focus. The attendees are chosen by lottery (the family applies to the magnet
)schools they want their children to attend) and close proximity to the
)physical location has little to do with who attends these schools.
That's a good point. It would be *much* preferable to actually get
a list of where the enrollees are from. OTOH, I doubt that info is
easily available to the public. Using data on a fairly gross geographical
level (i.e. county) would allow us to compensate for the problem to
some extent. Counties are fairly big things out west, so even for a
magnet type school, I'd guess that county captures the broad catchment
area for the school reasonably well. You do lose an awful lot of very
important fine distinction within that, though.
Chris
Chris Brostrup-Jensen
Father of a 4-year-old at
Meadowbrook Waldorf School
Rhode Island, USA
C_Brostrup-Jensen Brown.edu
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 06:50:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Deborah Kelly (deborah_kelly yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: The Most Famous Thing Eugene Schwartz Said...
) This is a perfect example of where it would be nice
) if Waldorf teachers
) explained their definition of "Imagination" to
) prospective parents. Parents
) are told Waldorf aims to help the child develop
) their imagination.
I do not understand why anyone would uncritically
believe what is being told to them by those with a
vested interest in getting their business, ie. tuition
money. If children's imaginations were truly being
fostered, then there would be physical evidence of it.
I went to a Waldorf school orientation and saw
absolutely no evidence of the fostering of
imagination. For instance, there were no pictures
made by children posted anywhere that I saw and we
went through all of the classrooms. All of it looked
controlled and done by New Age adults.
DK
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 06:56:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Deborah Kelly (deborah_kelly yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Yuba River's Advent invitation
) December 6, 2000
) Dear Friends,
)
) You are invited to attend a Winter Solstice Candle
) Spiral Ceremony on
) Thursday, Dec. 21, 2000 at the Rough & Ready Grange
) Hall. The times are as
) follows:
)
) Kindergartens: 6:00PM
) Grades 1 through 3: 7:00PM
)
) "This is a ceremony for the young child. The room
) will be dark and filled
) with a mood of wonder and quiet anticipation. A
) large spiral path of
) evergreen boughs adorned with rocks, plants and
) flowers is laid on the
) floor. In the center of the spiral is put a central
) candle. Golden stars
) are interspersed along the edges of the green spiral
) path.
)
) The central candle is lit. All is quiet. As the
) group sings, each child in
) turn, holding a red apple with a small unlit candle
) inserted into it,
) slowly walks along the spiral path and lights the
) candle from the center
) light. On the return the child places the apple and
) candle on one of the
) golden stars. When all the children have had a turn,
) the garden path is
) aglow from all the smaller lights.
)
) Songs are sung and participants and their families
) quietly file out into
) the darkest of winter nights. The candle apples will
) be returned to the
) children outside.
)
) (*Omitting directions on how to make apple candles*)
)
) For safety, long hair should be tied back. Festive
) clothing adds to the
) occasion but for safety's sake please avoid long
) flowing dresses which
) could brush against the already lit candles along
) the path. Buckets of
) water and wet towels will be ready just in case.
) (Deby here:*ROTFL!*)
)
) Some families may want to attend only one ceremony
) but may have children in
) different age catagories. Your children are welcome
) to walk the spiral
) together at the time of your families choosing,
) however one should consider
) that it may be too consciousness bringing (!!!) for
) a younger child to be
) asked to walk in an older group. A donation will be
) asked at the door to
) help defray the cost of renting the hall.
)
) Contributions of evergreen boughs, large crystals,
) flowers, holly,
) rosemary, etc. to grace the spiral will be most
) welcome. Please let me know
) if you can help.
)
) (It goes on to give specific directions to the
) building...)
)
) Some families had a hard time finding the Grange
) Hall at night. If you have
) not been there before please drive out ahead of time
) (perhaps one day after
) school) in the daylight so you know exactly where
) you are going and how
) long it will take you to get there. It is very
) disturbing to have late
) arrivals once the ceremony has begun.
)
) With best wishes for a blessed holiday season,
)
) Terry Anne Paquette"
)
And they are stating that this is not religious? What
if a group of Indian people announced they were
leading a sweat lodge in a public school, which by the
way no Indian people I know would do because of its
cultural/religious nature?
DK
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Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 07:04:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Deborah Kelly (deborah_kelly yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Non-Christian Saints discussion on SJU
My understanding is that those who wrote the majority
of the bible were of color just as Jesus was.
However, this is not what I was getting at. Of
course, as a minister in a mainstream religion Dr.
King used the language of the oppressor. If he were
still alive he, like many critical race theorists,
would be examining the language that reflects the
colonization of non-white people globally. Steiner's
attributions to the white vs. black were already
well-imbedded in Euro-centric thinking. Have you ever
looked up the definitions for "white" and "black?" Is
it just happenstance that "black" is negatively
defined, while "white" is positively defined?
)
) )
) ) --- Rechomba cs.com wrote:
) ) ) Psalms is filled with the meaning of darkness
) which
) ) ) Sune relates. In
) ) ) particular, Psalms 18:28 "For thou will light
) my
) ) ) candle: the Lord my God
) ) ) will enlighten my darkness".
)
) Deborah:
) ) Psalms as rewritten by white males? This only
) ) emphasizes the point I and many others who have
) ) researched the use of language to maintain
) oppression,
) ) continue to make.
)
) Rewriten? You forget: psalms "appropriated" by the
) AA religious community.
DK
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Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 15:04:43 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: The most famous thing that Eugene Schwartz never said
[Chris wrote:]
)Hopefully we do agree that "religious" and "mystery" schools are
) )different things?
If we are talking about the dictionary definition of these terms, sure. If
we are talking about Waldorf, the "religion" they are drawing from is
esoteric Christianity, which has heavy doses of the "ancient mysteries"
interwoven. That's what anthroposophy is, Chris.
)I'm sure that you have read this talk through considerably more than
)twice.
LOL! No, believe it or not, I think about things other than
Waldorf/anthroposophy occasionally! I read Schwartz's speech when it was
first put on the website, and I read it again a couple of weeks ago when
this debate started about the "mystery school" question!
The difference, Chris, is that I have spent hundreds of hours observing and
participating in Waldorf classrooms. The "mystery school" question is not
theoretical to me. I don't have to find specific quotes from Steiner, or
Eugene Schwartz - though the specific quotes clarify a lot, or back up
observation - to have seen that many things from the "ancient mysteries"
Steiner spoke of are part of the daily curriculum and practice, as Steiner
intended them to be. The debates about such things as the definition of
"initiation" - only a conscious process, so only for adults! ha! can't
accuse us of "initiating" anybody! - are laughable to me.
Diana
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 07:09:33 -0800 (PST)
From: Deborah Kelly (deborah_kelly yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Public Waldorf schools serving low income families?
--- Speckraybill aol.com wrote:
) I thought it was ridiculous to spend so much time in
) a car, driving to and
) from school, but we were told it was "worth it for
) our child". A one-way
) trip for us could be well over an hour. More than
) several families at the
) school were faced with similarly long drives. This
) school was a private
) Waldorf school, though.
Many of the Pleasant Ridge families drove more than
100 miles each day to get their children to school.
They did have car pools so that each parent had an
assigned day to drive the rest of the students to
Viroqua. I often wondered why they did not simply
homeschool their children and/or develop their own
private school. They all have college degrees and
come from wealth which is why most of them do not have
jobs.
DK
)
)
)
)
___________________________________________________________
) T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17
) Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite
) Topics
)
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Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 10:11:56 -0500
From: Chris Brostrup-Jensen (C_Brostrup-Jensen brown.edu)
Subject: RE: The most famous thing that Eugene Schwartz never said
On Sat, 30 Dec 2000, "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com) wrote:
)I wrote:
) )My point remains, however, that the *rest of the lecture* backs up )the
) )view that Schwartz would agree with the "mystery school" )designation,
) )even if, in fact, it is not what he was talking about in )that particular
) )paragraph. It's what the whole rest of the lecture is )about!
)
)[Neil:]
) )I disagree with you completely. The whole rest of the lecture is )about
) )the same thing as that quoted paragraph -- the need for Waldorf )education
) )to be true to itself, not to become "Waldorf lite" in the )interest of
) )public acceptability, and to be honest with the world and )with itself
) )about its roots. There's no suggestion that Schwartz )thinks that what
) )goes on in a Waldorf school is anything that would )qualify it as a mystery
) )school:
)
)Well, I thought he was saying that for Waldorf education to be true to
)itself, public accountability, etc., it would need to admit it was a
)religious education. If you just don't like using "mystery" instead of
)"religious," that's fine by me. It seems to me Schwartz himself tossed the
)term around fairly lightly, without apparently finding it a big scary spooky
)word. The fact that he appears to use such terms interchangeably with other
)religious terminology suggests to me he was not much concerned to
)differentiate the two, nor did he think his audience would be concerned
)about the possible distinction you seem to think changes everything about
)the speech. (Were you there? Did anybody raise their hand and say, "What
)exactly are you saying is a mystery school? How is that different from a
)religious school?" I doubt it. I would guess the audience found all the
)mystery/religion/spirit/soul talk sympatico in a general way.)
So here's the heart of the matter. I (and Neil, apparently) was working
from the definition of "mystery school" that Sharon provided. Using that
definition, a mystery school is something quite distinct from a religious
school. You, OTOH, seem to clearly imply above that the two are one
and the same in your mind and usage. I think that your first sentence
above is an accurate and succinct summary of Eugene's speech. It
is also my opinion from reading the speech yet again that he really was
making a distinction between "religious" and "mystery" (and I further
agree exactly with Neil's interpretation of the distinction). But you are
quite right that absent a chance to discuss that with Eugene himself,
we can't be sure. But I disagree with your statement that he uses the
terms "interchangeably". In fact, it seems to me that he confined the
term "mystery" to the very specific section of the talk that we've been
going over ad nauseam here. But I'll check again. Would you do me
a favor? Next time you have reason to review the speech, would you
keep that question of his use of terminology in mind? I'd be interested
to hear what you think.
As a conclusion, how about this. I suggest that we all be a bit careful
about defining what we mean by terms like "mystery school". If we
all know that we are talking about the same thing, it might make
agreement easier, or at least save us time spent on arguing what
amounts to a difference in definition.
Chris
Chris Brostrup-Jensen
Father of a 4-year-old at
Meadowbrook Waldorf School
Rhode Island, USA
C_Brostrup-Jensen Brown.edu
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 15:12:21 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Yuba River's Advent invitation
) ) (*Omitting directions on how to make apple candles*)
That'd be the best part. I made a hundred of these for the Advent Spiral one
year. Just remove the stem, and hollow out a place large enough for the
candle. They're very pretty.
Diana
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 10:54:08 EST
From: Speckraybill aol.com
Subject: Re: Steffi in Finland
--part1_a7.a72ee90.278353a0_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 01/01/2001 7:24:33 AM Pacific Standard Time,
Rechomba cs.com writes:
) Kids are masters of calling BS when they see it.
)
) The emphasis on "reverence", in my experience with a playgroup we got
) going,
) was applied to 3 and 4year olds. The W teacher (K-PreK), who I consider to
) be
) a dogmatist upon reflection, became frustrated when the children would not
) behave well through the loooonnnngggggg draaaaawnnn ouuuuuttttt just-so way
) of doing everything (I was getting antsy). It struck me as very rigid and I
) began to doubt if this teacher of many years knew anything about children
) of
) this age (square peg in a round hole comes to mind).
)
A similar situation ended my then-4 year old's participation in a W-inspired
playgroup, led by a long-time anthro and seasoned teacher. This playgroup
was yet a third establishment in this area and had no associations with
either school.
There were 10 or so children, aged 3-4ish and it was snacktime. After the
children were seated around the table, the teacher sat there, doing nothing,
for an unusual length of time. Then each child, one by one was asked to
"Prepare to receive" and was required to hold out cupped hands while an empty
plate was passed down the row. The child then had to set the empty plate in
front of him/her. Only when the plate was where the teacher wanted it, was
the next child named and asked to "Prepare to receive". After the empty
plates were in front of each child, one by one, the procedure was reversed.
A child was named, the empty plate was passed back down the row to the
teacher, a serving was placed on the plate, and the filled plate was passed
back to the child. This was repeated, one by one, until each child had a
plate with snack in front of them. Then it was cup time. The same procedure
was repeated with the empty cups being passed out first, passed back one by
one, filled and passed back to the children. Meanwhile, the children (hungry
3-4 years old!) were expected to sit quietly, no wiggling, with hands folded
in laps. Then after all was passed out (I was about to pass out with
disbelief...) the teacher observed several more moments of silence (her
silence, not the children's who were now beyond their limits of endurance)
and then led the group in the blessing, which, I might add, was always
pitched so highly that only a professional soprano had any hopes of hitting
all the notes. ( is this a Waldorf teacher thing that one must sing
everything high enough that the dogs scream? Sune--were you required to sing
everything in falsetto?) After the blessing, one child reached for a piece of
food and was reprimanded that she had not been given permission to eat as of
yet.
Moving on down to craft time, the teacher literally lost it when my 4 yr old
son reached out and picked up the glue stick that she had set in front of
him. Several of the adults present (me included) were appalled at the
tongue-lashing my son received for this transgression. The explanation I
received was that since she had not given the children permission or
instructions to touch anything placed before them, his doing so was a show of
irreverence. We never went back.
--part1_a7.a72ee90.278353a0_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
(HTML)(FONT FACE=arial,helvetica)(FONT SIZE=3 FAMILY="DECORATIVE" FACE="Tempus Sans ITC" LANG="0")(B)In a message dated 01/01/2001 7:24:33 AM Pacific Standard Time, (BR)Rechomba cs.com writes:
(BR)
(BR)(/FONT)(FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0")(/B)
(BR)(BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px")Kids are masters of calling BS when they see it.
(BR)
(BR)The emphasis on "reverence", in my experience with a playgroup we got (BR)going,
(BR)was applied to 3 and 4year olds. The W teacher (K-PreK), who I consider to (BR)be
(BR)a dogmatist upon reflection, became frustrated when the children would not
(BR)behave well through the loooonnnngggggg draaaaawnnn ouuuuuttttt just-so way
(BR)of doing everything (I was getting antsy). It struck me as very rigid and I
(BR)began to doubt if this teacher of many years knew anything about children (BR)of
(BR)this age (square peg in a round hole comes to mind).
(BR) (/BLOCKQUOTE)
(BR)(/FONT)(FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="DECORATIVE" FACE="Tempus Sans ITC" LANG="0")(B)
(BR)A similar situation ended my then-4 year old's participation in a W-inspired (BR)playgroup, led by a long-time anthro and seasoned teacher. This playgroup (BR)was yet a third establishment in this area and had no associations with (BR)either school.
(BR)
(BR)There were 10 or so children, aged 3-4ish and it was snacktime. After the (BR)children were seated around the table, the teacher sat there, doing nothing, (BR)for an unusual length of time. Then each child, one by one was asked to (BR)"Prepare to receive" and was required to hold out cupped hands while an empty (BR)plate was passed down the row. The child then had to set the empty plate in (BR)front of him/her. Only when the plate was where the teacher wanted it, was (BR)the next child named and asked to "Prepare to receive". After the empty (BR)plates were in front of each child, one by one, the procedure was reversed. (BR)A child was named, the empty plate was passed back down the row to the (BR)teacher, a serving was placed on the plate, and the filled plate was passed (BR)back to the child. This was repeated, one by one, until each child had a (BR)plate with snack in front of them. Then it was cup time. The same pro!
cedure (BR)was repeated with the empty cups being passed out first, passed back one by (BR)one, filled and passed back to the children. Meanwhile, the children (hungry (BR)3-4 years old!) were expected to sit quietly, no wiggling, with hands folded (BR)in laps. Then after all was passed out (I was about to pass out with (BR)disbelief...) the teacher observed several more moments of silence (her (BR)silence, not the children's who were now beyond their limits of endurance) (BR)and then led the group in the blessing, which, I might add, was always (BR)pitched so highly that only a professional soprano had any hopes of hitting (BR)all the notes. ( is this a Waldorf teacher thing that one must sing (BR)everything high enough that the dogs scream? Sune--were you required to sing (BR)everything in falsetto?) After the blessing, one child reached for a piece of (BR)food and was reprimanded that she had not been given permission to eat as of (BR)yet.
(BR)
(BR)Moving on down to craft time, the teacher literally lost it when my 4 yr old (BR)son reached out and picked up the glue stick that she had set in front of (BR)him. Several of the adults present (me included) were appalled at the (BR)tongue-lashing my son received for this transgression. The explanation I (BR)received was that since she had not given the children permission or (BR)instructions to touch anything placed before them, his doing so was a show of (BR)irreverence. We never went back.(/B)(/FONT)(/HTML)
--part1_a7.a72ee90.278353a0_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 11:03:48 -0500
From: Chris Brostrup-Jensen (C_Brostrup-Jensen brown.edu)
Subject: Re: Mystery schools
On Sat, 30 Dec 2000, "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com) wrote:
)I'm fascinated that people can read a speech where Schwartz hammers home, as
)loudly and clearly as possible, the view that Waldorf is religious through
)and through, mentions ancient mystery initiation proudly and says Waldorf
)educators should explain all this proudly to parents, and yet people search
)for ways to deduce from this that these ancient mysteries have nothing to do
)with educating the children. Dispelling the "ancient mystery" thing seems to
)pivot on separating the teacher training from the activities of the children
)in the classroom, which although they are obviously not the same thing, are
)also obviously related.
)
)Reading back over some of the posts, I was interested in Chris writing, a
)few days ago:
)
) )It seems very clear to me that he [Schwartz] sees the initiation into
) ) )mysteries (i.e. occult knowledge) as occurring primarily in teacher
) ) )training as part of the process of learning how to teach children in )the
) )Waldorf way. He sees the insight gained by that process as making )the
) )teachers better able to educate children. He also clearly sees )Waldorf
) )schools as a place where children have a religiously based )education
)
)I think, Chris, here is one difference in how you as (I think) a fairly new
)Waldorf parent and some of us "veterans" understand what is going on in
)Waldorf. We would both read what Schwartz wrote there as being about how the
)teachers prepare themselves for their work in the classroom. The difference
)is, I think, that you assume that the main motivation in setting up teacher
)training centers, and of the people getting trained in them, is educating
)children. A person who wants to educate children starts researching the best
)way to do this, which naturally involves finding the best information - or
)preferably, a range of views - on child development, philosophy of
)education, etc. Since this would be why most people become teachers, or why
)others want to train teachers, it makes sense to read this that way.
[Chris]
I am, indeed, fairly new to this world and am, indeed, working on
"learning the ropes". I *very* much appreciate posts, like this one,
that lay out the critical thinking and perspective on Waldorf in a way
that is clear (even to one new to the debate), thorough and free of a
lot of the jargon and loaded words that characterize so much of the
rhetoric here. "Mystery school" is a good example. I spent quite a
while trying to tease out what the heck that even meant while old-timers
pro- and con- used it like a club to bash each other with. As I get
more used to the list (and more mouthy! ;-), I'll also have to start
calling people on the lingo more, to make sure I know what's really
being said. I still feel that virtually our entire debate over "mystery
school" in the Schwartz speech hinges on definition of the term.
In that spirit, let me lay out what I understand to be the basis for
the "old-hand" critic's assertion that the *primary* goal of Waldorf
teacher training is the spread of anthroposophy rather than the
education of teachers in how to teach. Then you (all) can correct
me where I'm wrong or misunderstanding.
[Note: To me this is a completely new topic, independent of
what Eugene Schwartz did or did not say in the Famous Speech.
It is, in fact, a much more central and important topic.]
As I understand it, the evidence for this point of view is essentially
two-fold. First, it is observed that a very large part of the curriculum
at the Rudolf Steiner College (side note: is this true of Sunbridge as
well?) seems to be direct study of anthroposophy and Rudolf Steiner.
Traditional (or, perhaps more accurately any non-anthroposophical)
ways to understand children, child development or how to teach
children appear to be absent or radically under-represented in the
curriculum. The second stream of evidence is experiential, based
on the observations of folks who have either been parents or
employees at various Waldorf schools over the years and who saw
decisions being made and actions taken that seem incompatible with
education as a primary goal, making sense only if the inculcation of
an anthroposophical mind set were the real objective. Is that a fair
summary? Am I leaving anything out?
The curriculum argument is a strong one and quite distressing to a
prospective parent (or at least me). It is also one where I do not
believe I've seen much effective response from the pro-Waldorf
folks. I would *guess* that an anthroposophist might feel that
RS had a better set of insights and understandings about child
development and education than any non-spiritual scientist
possibly could. But I might be wrong about that, and in any
case that is hardly an argument likely to reassure any non-believers.
If the RSC required applicants to show either a background in
education (either academic or practical), that would indicate that
the Steiner stuff was meant to extend or improve the understanding
they already had. But that does not appear to be the case either.
I've seen Robert Flannery argue that experience in the classroom
is far more valuable than training in educational child development
theory. But that would seem to argue for the RSC curriculum to
include a fairly lengthy and intensive practicum component, which
I've heard no evidence that it does. I mean, it stands to reason that
no parent is going to want his or her children taught (maybe for many
years) by a person who is learning his or her craft on the job.
Anyway, I'd be very interested to see elaborations of either the pro-
or anti-Waldorf point of view on the Waldorf teacher training
curriculum that go beyond my initial efforts here. Once again, it
would be a godsend to have someone like Eugene Schwartz on the
list.
The experiential evidence is a trickier problem to evaluate. There are
experiences both pro- and con-. I've heard some fairly hair-raising ones
from critics as well as some very positive ones. We have a couple of
critics with "inside experience" and at least one Waldorf teacher with a
very different take on the inside. All I can say at this point is that I
greatly appreciate all the experiences folks have shared and that those
experiences need to be part of any complete understanding of the subject.
[Diana]
)The difference is, some people who observed Waldorf closely for a period,
)realized that they are not starting from the motive of educating children,
)in the way you or I would understand it. Anthroposophy comes *first*.
)Anthroposophy is the mission, education is one of the activities of
)anthroposophy in service of the mission.
)
)Yes, Schwartz "sees the insight gained by that process as making the
)teachers better able to educate children." What I am saying is, they start
)with a fascination with these insights, and find applications for them, such
)as education of children; rather than looking for ways to educate children,
)and finding that Steiner had some useful insights.
)
)This doesn't mean this is the motivation of every Waldorf teacher, or is
)what teacher trainees are necessarily expecting when they enroll in
)training. What they signed up for isn't necessarily what they get, but it's
)fairly clear anthroposophy is the main thing they get, not child
)development, philosophy of education, classroom management, let alone
)traditional academic content.
)
)It seems obvious to me that anyone whose main mission is educating children
)would want to take what is useful wherever they found it. Studying one
)person's world views (and a very obscure person at that) rather than
)studying the incredibly broad range of educational philosophies and methods
)that are out there, makes little sense to a person whose first interest is
)truly "education." It only makes sense if that obscure philosophy is itself
)the priority.
[Chris]
Well stated. I hope you feel that my perhaps somewhat clumsy effort
to compress this above was fair.
[Diana]
)I am just wondering if this is helpful to you in seeing where the critics
)come from and why we interpret things in such surprising ways! Your
)assumptions are what mine certainly were at the outset of our Waldorf days.
)I would suggest to you that the main reason the critics interpret so
)differently, is - been there and done that!
[Chris]
It is very helpful indeed and I appreciate the effort you put in. I
realize that this discussion is pretty "old hat" to you and many others
on the list. It is new and vital to me, however, and I hope you will
indulge my desire to run through it again. Trying to page through the
archives and piece together past versions of the debate is very
frustrating and unrewarding to me. Nobody asks quite the same
questions that I would (or maybe asks them in quite the same way).
My need to know is very personal and so is my way of coming to
understanding. I hope that you all see this kind of rehashing for
educational purpose as part of the raison d'etre for the list.
Chris
Chris Brostrup-Jensen
Father of a 4-year-old at
Meadowbrook Waldorf School
Rhode Island, USA
C_Brostrup-Jensen Brown.edu
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 12:27:43 -0500
From: Chris Brostrup-Jensen (C_Brostrup-Jensen brown.edu)
Subject: Re: Collection of PLANS lies and deceptive quoting - update
On Sun, 31 Dec 2000, "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com) wrote:
)Dan, on Jelle's list of "PLANS lies":
)
)re: "Waldorf salad with Aryan mayonnaise"
)
)[Dan:]
) )I don't censor the articles we reprint, nor do I censor your
) )postings, Jelle. PLANS provides a free-speech forum (because
) )Anthroposophy would not). Toos Jeurissen is not a professional
) )writer. Second-hand quoting is lousy scholarship, as is putting
) )together parts of a text without indicating the splicing. I don't
) )think the sense of Steiner's thoughts was distorted thereby, however.
)
)I went over the article, and Jelle's complaints about it, about a month ago,
)but never finished what I was writing. I'll try to finish it soon. In short,
)my conclusion is the same as Dan's: the author Jeurissen cited made quoting
)errors, and Jeurissen reproduced them, probably not having checked the
)original. The errors do not, however, distort Steiner, IMO.
I look forward to your more complete thoughts on the subject.
I must say, though, that Jelle made what I found to be a very
compelling case that the quotes (which were taken pretty wildly
out of context and put together as if contiguous) were used in a
way that quite clearly distorted their meaning. I was also struck
by the fact that no one seemed able to make a cogent argument
against Jelle on that specific point (he or she certainly made lots
of other wild and unsubstantiated allegations and I don't propose
to support those). Perhaps you've done that and will share it with
the list when you are done.
)[Jelle:]
) )D2 Dan Dugan selectively quotes Steiner critic Landau, leaving out
) ))a more positive part.
)
)And I've also rebutted this one, showing that whether the part left out was
)"positive" is a matter of interpretation. The "positive" part had me
)positively shuddering.
I have to second this feeling. There were mixed reactions to the
whole quote as I recall, but I was firmly in the "creeped out" camp.
It was also very clear if you read the whole thing that Dan's "trimmed
down" version of the quote did no harm to its meaning at all.
Chris
)Diana
Chris Brostrup-Jensen
Father of a 4-year-old at
Meadowbrook Waldorf School
Rhode Island, USA
C_Brostrup-Jensen Brown.edu
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 12:48:33 -0500
From: Chris Brostrup-Jensen (C_Brostrup-Jensen brown.edu)
Subject: Re:Waldorf "reverence" for Lucifer
On Mon, 1 Jan 2001, iris springflower (irisspringflower yahoo.com) wrote:
)Oh my! A SCHOOL teaching kids to have "respect" for
)Lucifer?! It IS "religious" all right--I say NO
)public funds for Waldorf schools!! This really angers
)me!
)So the WE folks I know may actualy "respect" Lucifer?!
) You see, before being on this list I didn't know all
)these truths about their beliefs. I never thought to
)ask them because I wasn't interested in joining them
)in their "spiritual" rituals. I HAVE heard of
)Satanists, though, and Lucifer and Satan are the SAME!
Iris, I can understand your distress. I was taken aback
at first as well by the name Lucifer. I was taught that
Lucifer and Satan were one and the same being. Even
a very cursory reading of Steiner, however, makes clear
that this is not true in Anthroposophy. This is another of
those cases where Steiner has appropriated the name of
a mythological being from one context and used it in a
different one with a different meaning. That is quite
obvious, for example, in the Steiner essay "Christ in Relation
to Lucifer and Ahriman" (from 1915) that Sune pointed us
at a couple days ago (more thoughts on that in a separate
email in just a sec). I don't know the history of the two
terms "Lucifer" and "Satan", nor do I know why they refer
to the same being in at least most of the Christian traditions
with which I have become familiar. But it is quite clear that
for Steiner and anthroposophists they are most certainly
*not* the same, or at least not the name of the all-consuming
Enemy of God and humanity.
Trying to figure this out,
Chris
Chris Brostrup-Jensen
Father of a 4-year-old at
Meadowbrook Waldorf School
Rhode Island, USA
C_Brostrup-Jensen Brown.edu
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 17:54:51 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Collection of PLANS lies and deceptive quoting - update
re: WALDORF SALAD WITH ARYAN MAYONNAISE?? by Toos
Jeurissen
Ok, here it is, I wrote most of this weeks ago and I don't have time to
think about all these details again, so I hope it makes sense.
Jelle has long claimed this article is partly based on a false quoting of
Steiner. Jelle is right, but only in a narrow technical sense. He has
highlighted a trivial error that does not call into question Jeurissen's
interpretation of Steiner.
Please note that I don't have either the Moerland book or Steiner's "Mission
of the Folk Souls." I am taking Jelle's word on good faith that the quotes
are 250 words apart and in reverse order! I am basing my analysis on Jelle's
own analysis.
)Jeurissen:
)In his book 'Rassenleer met charisma', (racial doctrine with
) )charisma,1987) Bram Moerland quotes Steiner's book 'Die Volksseelen'
) )(The Mission of Folk-Souls) on the fate of the American Indians:
)"First, he (Steiner) warns us that if we want to understand the cosmic
)meaning of the Indians' fate, we 'should not let personal sympathies or
)personal enthusiasm interfere, because that is not the main point. The
) )only main point is what is hidden in the great laws of humanity. He, )who
)would not agree with the necessity, would not accomplish anything.
) )Objecting to this means that obstacles are put on the way.'
[Jelle:]
)The part in quotation marks is NOT a quote of Steiner, but constructed )by
)Moerland from 2 parts of a lecture that are 250 words apart and put )in
)reverse order.
)The part about Indians is even further away, 1100 words, and can not
)be connected in this way to the other parts.
Moerland should have put the two statements in the order Steiner put them in
his original, and made clear that he had snipped material between the two
statements. I'm not excusing him for quoting sloppily (though there is no
way to know who in fact made the error - Moerland, Jeurissen, or somebody
typing, editing, or proofreading; obviously this is not uncommon when a
quote is repeated by other authors, and the author is responsible for the
mistake in the end).
I think the same conclusions can be drawn from the material whichever order
the statements appear in, with or without the intervening text. Steiner is
so wordy he can often be found, 250 words later, repeating the same
material.
I think Moerland was drawing inferences from what the man said, trying to
apply to historical situations the general principles such as "not letting
personal sympathies interfere" but respecting "great laws of humanity." The
inference Moerland drew is also the inference I would draw. Jelle may draw
others, or consider the comments 250 words apart unrelated, but that is
Jelle's opinion and not the author's. (And I don't think it would have been
Steiner's.)
)(Steiner, June 19th, 1910 GA 121, not-so-good translation mostly by )A.H.
)Parker)
I've snipped a bit more than you did, Jelle, so you can easily accuse me of
mis-quoting or snipping stuff you feel is relevant. These are the parts I
think are relevant to the quoted material:
(Steiner:)
)Thus you will understand that the whole process of the evolution of
) )mankind is connected with the spiritual evolution which has always )been
)known to those who were initiated into the deeper secrets of )existence.
)The truth of what I have just said does not depend upon )whether one
)approves or disapproves; it depends upon evolutionary )necessity. *Whoever
)speaks against this necessity can't get anywhere; )it serves only to put
)obstacles in the way of understanding.*
Okay, there's the first part, which Moerland (incorrectly) put second
(between **). The "necessity" refers to "evolutionary necessity" which is
equated with "spiritual evolution." It refers to the "whole process" of
evolution. Moerland concluded (correctly, I think) that if it applies to the
"whole process" (evolution of mankind), it applies to the process by which
the Indians were subjugated, discussed later in the same article. A logical
inference. Jeurissen also cites other anthroposophists who draw this
inference.
)"We must understand therefore what is needed if we wish to rise to
) )humanity's character of communality. Here lies the great )responsibility
)that we take upon ourselves, if we wish to participate )in the great
)movement of mankind. *In this realm neither personal )sympathy nor personal
)enthusiasm may play a part. They are of no )consequence; only what is
)determined by the great laws of humanity is
)decisive*. From the universal laws we must understand and we must not
)allow ourselves to be prejudiced by this or that."
That's the second part, which Moerland put first. Jelle, you think it's a
leap to connect this "avoid personal sympathies; consider only universal
laws" stuff to the discussion of evolutionary necessity? Steiner makes this
point in numerous lectures. He is clearly referring to the evolution of
humanity, which he states unfolds according to spiritual necessity.
)This part of the lecture, from which the parts with quotation marks )have
)been taken, doesn't give any reason to accuse Steiner of )heartlessly
)viewing the genocide of American Indians as a lawlike )phenomenon.
Jelle, he is saying *all* historical events are a result of these "lawlike"
phenomena. This is basic Steiner; read any lecture on karma. I know it's a
huge, sweeping, ridiculous statement (because if karma explains everything,
it explains nothing), but it's what the man said. It's no use counting the
words in between the times he repeats himself.
)Moerland is guilty of incorrect quoting. He puts quotation marks )around a
)framed text. Have you counted the words? 251 between the )parts. This can
)not have been done by mistake. It puts me in heavy )doubt of his
)intentions.
I agree with you Moerland did not quote correctly. But I think Moerland
interpreted it exactly as Steiner intended. Steiner frequently announces
that what he is about to say is a "great law of humanity," "a univeral law"
(handed down from spirit beings he has conversed with personally), here
equating "evolutionary necessity" with "spiritual evolution." We should not
be surprised to find people applying these principles all round, just as he
has instructed. I think it is fair to assume his comments earlier in the
lecture are relevant to his opinions about the Indians.
Especially since, in Jeurissen's article, Steiner's opinions (and those of
other anthroposophists interpreting Steiner) directly regarding the Indians
are confirmed by several other quotes:
" . . . the Indian nation did not become extinct just by chance, because the
Europeans wanted so, but because that nation had to acquire the forces,
which led to extinction." (this is Steiner)
Frank Wijnbergh, 1985 lecture on "Racial problems": -as quoted by Jeurissen-
not confirmed by Diana Winters!
"And you may see that the Indian race started to behave in a very definite
way. I mean, they acquiesced. Then, the white race is unfriendly enough to
speed up this process by exterminating them. This is something which occurs
again and again in history. At the moment when an impulse is not strong
enough anymore, and out of place, then there will always be other nations
and influences to finish them off (...) That is a law!"
White Europeans are therefore guilty of no more than "speeding up" an
inevitable process (an "unfriendly" thing, yes I'd say so). I am sure that
not all anthroposophists think this way, but this is one clear inference
that can be drawn from these statements.
It is also fair to suggest how *if* applied to historical situations,
Steiner's ideas are dangerous, as Jeurissen does.
[Jelle, complaining Jeurissen doesn't understand Steiner:]
)a)Note that Steiner's basic view of the significance of race, namely )that
)it was important in ancient times, but not anymore, is present )here again,
)when he says:
)Terrestrial forces first made races, then civilizations, and then they
) )lose meaning. This is a point that he makes 3 times in the lecture, )and
)he even predicts that the phenomenon of race will have disappeared )by the
)36th century.
By the 36th century? In other words, don't hold your breath.
)"I beg you not to misunderstand what has just been said. It is only
)referring to the human to the extent that he is dependent of
)physical-organisational influences, of the influences that don't
) )constitute his essence as a human, but those in which he lives."
)Any interpretation that not respects this request to the fullest of its
)consequences, is flawed.
The reader is not required to "respect" the author's requests for how to
understand the material, Jelle. Does it occur to you, Jelle, that Moerland
may have considered the request bogus, as I do? He may not be
misunderstanding what Steiner said, maybe he just doesn't buy it. It isn't
nearly as compelling, clear, or vivid as the grand universal laws stuff.
)It is said several times: "as for the racial traits, ..." , and that )means
)a big limitation of meaning.
)it has been shown that Moerland doesn't correctly follow Steiner's )train
)of thought, including the clearly stated limitations.
I think he was on board the train the whole time. I think he concluded that
the "clearly stated limitations" could not be reconciled with the rest of
the material.
back to Jelle on Jeurissen:
)Now she goes on to fantasize on the basis of these false quotes that )can
)not be attributed to Steiner,
No, the quotes are attributable to Steiner, though their location in
relation to each other in the text should have been specified more carefully
by the quoter. I think your objection is not to the order of the quotes, but
to the inferences drawn from them.
)about an utmost horrible thing that can in no way be related to )Waldorf
)education, and then immediately she draws Steiner in again: - )have you
)ever seen such mean smearing?
)Jeurissen:
)Just as terrible was the case of a twelve year old Jewish boy. When he )was
)put on the operation table, he understood, more than the adults )did, that
)he would be killed. ...
)There are still people today who think Rudolf Steiner was right when )he
)said there was no place left on earth for Jewry and that it had to
) )disappear.
I am sorry you don't like seeing Steiner "drawn in." I think Steiner drew
himself in. Jelle, he made the remarks she quotes about Jewry outliving
itself and which she juxtaposes with actions other people have taken who
believed similar things. She's making a point. Sorry this feels "mean" to
you.
Diana
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 13:42:50 -0500
From: Chris Brostrup-Jensen (C_Brostrup-Jensen brown.edu)
Subject: Steiner essay on Lucifer, Ahriman and WW1
On Sat, 30 Dec 2000, Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se) wrote:
)dingman mindspring.com wrote, quoting Eugene Swartz:
)
) ) ) "Most of that which contributes to our work as teachers, preparation
) ) ) work, artistic work, even meditative work, is under the=
guardianship
) ) ) of Lucifer. We can become great teachers under his supervision,
) ) ) for he is responsible for much that has blossomed in the unfolding=
of
) ) ) civilization and culture in the past."
) ) ) Schwartz, Eugene. The Waldorf Teacher's Survival Guide. Fair Oaks, CA:
) ) ) Rudolf Steiner College Press, 1992, p. 54.
)
)Newpaul:
) ) Does the Lucifer in this passage refer to Satan?
)
)No.
)
) ) Would someone kindly explain to me why Waldorf teachers are under the
) ) guardianship of Lucifer rather than Jesus or God?
) )
) ) Exactly how did Lucifer help civilization blossom? Is Eugene talking
) ) about the Nazi death camps and all the wars of history ?
)
)As for Steiner's view, maybe a lecture at
)http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/ChrLuc_index.html can clarify how he
)viewed some aspects of your questions.
)
)The lecture was held in Linz in Austria on May 18, 1915, in the context
)of being 10 months after the First World War had broken out on 28th July
)1914 by Austria-Hungary having declared war on Serbia after the Archduke
)Franz-Ferdinand, as heir to the Austro-Hungarian thrones, had been
)assassinated by a serb 28th June during a visit to Sarajevo.
)
)The lecture gives a wide perspective on how Steiner viewed the
)contemporary situation in Europe at the time in relation to what worked
)and works as more 'Luciferic' tendencies in the East and what worked and
)works as more 'Ahrimanic' tendencies in the West and what he saw as the
)role of Europe situated 'between' East and West in that situation.
[Chris sez]
Thanks for the reference, Sune. I read it. I don't know how many
others on the list did. I'd be very curious to hear others' views of it.
Here's mine....
It annoyed, bored and angered me. Yeah, "annoyed" and "angered"
are both in there. It annoyed me because his efforts at historical
analysis (for both the development of opposing Ahrimanic and
Luciferic forces in the West and East respectively, and also for
the events leading up to WW1) were so incredibly shallow, self
serving and, not to put too fine a point on it, wrong. Among other
things, the Russians mobilized first in 1914 because they had to,
their infrastructure was so bad that it took them much longer to
mobilize their troops than was the case for any other power. If
they waited, they were finished.
The essay also bored me because, like so much of the (yes, still very
limited) Steiner reading I have done, it is needlessly verbose, pompous,
self-important and extremely self-justifying. Reading this man's stuff is
an act of either love or endurance. Why say it in a sentence when it
could be padded out to a perfectly stupefying page-long paragraph?
And for goodness sake, one can make absolutely any argument if one
postulates as given most of the points in question!
Then we get to the heart of the matter. This essay is not really
about the relationship between Lucifer, Ahriman and Christ (despite
the long passages where he dwells lovingly on the genius of his own
efforts at capturing of the relationship in statue form). What it really
is about can be found mostly in the (interminable) middle pages. That
is, this essay is primarily a justification for why WW1 is not the fault
of the Austrians and Germans. Sure, he talks about how "fault" is
not the issue, but it is painfully obviously on his mind. He would like
the listener (or reader) to believe that "Central European" (aka
German and Austrian) culture is the helpless, blameless and
inevitable victim, caught in the middle of a war which is really a
spiritual struggle between the Ahrimanic West and the Luciferic
East. The Western Powers (Britain, France, US) are acting out
of the Ahrimanic, intellectual, materialistic impulse. The Russians
are bearers of the dreamy, backward-looking, non-scientific
spirituality of the Asian/Luciferic past. The Germans and Austrians
are the unique bearers of the Christ impulse, vital seekers after
spiritual truth, the balanced third way, the path of human future
enlightenment. The war was really between Lucifer and Ahriman,
the involvement of the Christ-bearing Germans is just a karmic
cross for them to bear (pun intended).
As you might imagine, there is a fair dose of racism and nationalism
mixed in. As usual there is talk of rising above nationality, but his
national stereotyping is simple-minded, blatant, self-serving and
quite offensive to just about anyone non-German (note that non-
Europeans hardly merit any notice or comment at all). I do not see
how one could read this lecture and miss Steiner's strong sense
of racial/national bias.
Taken all together, this essay sheds only a small amount of light
for me on the relationship between Ahriman and Lucifer. It sheds
a lot of light on the character of Rudolf Steiner and his biases. It
also reads a lot like the kind of whiny "not-my-fault" rhetoric that
characterized so much of German reaction to the First World War.
And I think it shows Steiner's narcissism (which is really starting
to get on my nerves) with painful clarity. At one point he recounts
the tragic and senseless accidental death of a 7-year-old boy, son
of a local anthroposophist in Dornach. Steiner finds meaning in
this boy's death because the boy's etheric body, still so robust and
full of energy, would hang around, associated with the Goethenaeum
he was then building there. It verges on seeing the boy's death as
a voluntary self-sacrifice to feed the holy temple. The whole
passage turned my stomach. I wasn't going to burden the list with
a long extract, but now I feel compelled. Please excuse me if you
find this quote overly long or irritating.
[Rudolf Steiner writes]
This fall we witnessed in Dornach the death of little seven-year-old Theodor
Faiss; (snip family background)...
Little seven-year-old Theodor was really a sunny child =97 a wonderful,=20
lovely boy.
Now, one day the following happened. We just had a lecture that I delivered=
in
Dornach about the work that goes on in the building. After the lecture=
someone
appeared and reported that little Theodor's mother had not seen him since=20
late in the
afternoon. It was ten o'clock at night and we could not help thinking that=
=20
a terrible
accident had happened. This afternoon a horse-driven furniture van had been=
=20
in the
vicinity of the so-called canteen; it was seen on a narrow street where it=
=20
was forced
to turn. To my knowledge, no van as huge had reached that spot in decades.=
=20
Little
Theodor had been in the canteen before the van had turned. He had been=
delayed
there, otherwise he would have gone home earlier with the food that he had=
=20
fetched
from the canteen for supper. It so happened that he covered the short=20
distance to his
home in such a way that he reached the very spot where at that moment the=20
van turned
over and fell on him. Nobody had noticed the accident, not even the=20
coachman because
he was tending to his horses when the van turned over and did not know that=
=20
the child
was buried under it. When we were informed that the child was missing we=20
tried to
heave the vehicle up again. Friends fetched tools and alerted Swiss=20
soldiers to help us
with the task. Naturally the child had been dead since five-thirty in the=20
afternoon. The
van had crushed him immediately and he had died of suffocation.
( Snip little side trip into how unenlightened folks get confused about=20
causes and effects.)
The situation with little Theodor was that his karma had expired, so that=20
it is actually
possible to say, =93He himself ordered the van to the place of the=
accident.=94=20
I have told
you this externally tragic case in detail because we are here concerned=20
with a child's
ether body, which could have supported his life for decades. This ether=20
body has passed
into the spiritual world with all of its unexpended powers, but where is=20
it? What is it doing?
Since that day, anyone attuned to occult perception who is working=20
artistically on the
building in Dornach or is there simply to pursue his thoughts will know=20
that the entire ether
body of the child, with all its powers, is enlarged in the aura of the=20
Dornach building. We
must distinguish that the individuality is elsewhere; it goes its own way,=
=20
but the ether body
was separated after a few days and is now present in the building. I will=20
never hesitate to
assert that the powers needed for intuition are those of this ether body=20
that was sacrificed
for the building. The relationships behind ordinary life are often quite=20
different from what
rue are able to suspect. This ether body has become one of the protective=20
forces of the
building. Something tremendously stupendous lies in such a relationship.
[Chris again]
I think this speaks for itself.
Chris
Chris Brostrup-Jensen
Father of a 4-year-old at
Meadowbrook Waldorf School
Rhode Island, USA
C_Brostrup-Jensen Brown.edu
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 11:24:17 -0800
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: Steiner essay on Lucifer, Ahriman and WW1
Chris quotes Steiner:
)Now, one day the following happened. We just had a lecture that I delivered in
)Dornach about the work that goes on in the building. After the lecture someone
)appeared and reported that little Theodor's mother had not seen him since
)late in the
)afternoon. It was ten o'clock at night and we could not help thinking that
)a terrible
)accident had happened.
[Debra]
Interesting! Instead of Waldorf orphans, maybe we should call them Anthro
orphans. What mother in her right mind would not think to check on a 7 year
old boy who had not been seen since late afternoon?
Too familiar of a story.
[Chris]
)( Snip little side trip into how unenlightened folks get confused about
)causes and effects.)
[Debra]
Thanks for sparing me. I already understand how unenlightened I am
according to Steiner.
)[Chris again]
)I think this speaks for itself.
[Debra]
Unfortunately it does.
Chris, I'm beginning to detect a shift in your writing and opinion on this
list. I would love to see Robert Flannery or any other Anthroposophist on
the list address your concerns while they still have time.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 19:46:52 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Steiner essay on Lucifer, Ahriman and WW1
[Chris, bored and angered by Steiner:]
)[Rudolf Steiner writes]
)The situation with little Theodor was that his karma had expired, so that
)it is actually possible to say, ìHe himself ordered the van to )the place
)of the accident.î
Yes, this is sickening and stupid, and I agree with Deby, "karma" is a poor
excuse for not knowing where your seven year old is for several hours.
Chris, I was answering your other post - where you summed up, correctly I
thought, the critics' arguments about the role of anthroposophy in Waldorf -
1) teacher training ignores most theories except Steiner's; and 2)
experiential - seen too much weird stuff that doesn't fit with "child
development" as most would understand it (a la Ray's and speckraybill's
recent posts on Waldorf playgroups from hell) - but I lost what I was
writing. Will try tonight or tomorrow (going sledding with my seven year old
now!), but thanks are due back to you for your own level-headedness and
reminding the rest of us to slow down and calm down, and for your admirable
manner of not getting agitated yourself when you ask us reasonable questions
and you get a lot of, well, agitation back at you.
Diana
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Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 12:23:22 -0800 (PST)
From: iris springflower (irisspringflower yahoo.com)
Subject: MORE on Lucifer, etc. in schools
Hi. To add to my last post, I feel if ANY school
teaches that "Lucifer is good" or to "worship and
revere spirits", it is not to get public funds. I am
very concerned that New Age practices like Eastern
meditation and such are not considered "religious" by
many people and authorities.
I understand these practices are taught to "relax" and
"focus" kids, but the FACT is that these are RELIGIOUS
practices, even though they are not Jewish or
Christian.
The following is OFF-TOPIC of WE, but may be related:
There is a widespread acceptance of New Age practices
in psychotherapy also and those of us who were HURT by
The New Age Movement (including myself) have a very
difficult time trying to explain to our health care
providers that Eastern Meditation practices TRIGGER
(me) to relive (my) trauma (the later adulthood trauma
from the New Age group that I trusted for "healing"
from my original childhood/teenage trauma). WHen I
left the New Age group (Rainbow), I promised myself
that I would have nothing to do with New Age practices
again. BUT I now find out that New Age practices are
integrated into mainstream
medical/psychotherapy/self-help therapies. It is
difficult for me to have to say "NO" when I really
need help. Then the practitioner must think I "don't
want" help with my emotional trauma and the symptoms
(like the distressing and overwhelmeing panic
attacks)! I am all FOR mainstream psychotherapy,
which has helped me (minus the New Age practices). I
"take what I need and try to leave the rest".
New Age practices, in my experience and opinion, HARM
certain people (like myself) who were previously hurt
through them (and by dishonest practioners).
Best Wishes, Iris
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Date: Tue, 2-Jan-2001 20:35:33 GMT
From: (irisspringflower yahoo.com)
Subject: Off-topic posts by me
Hi. If I write off-topic posts(to the Critics list & concerning WE)
here and you want to answer me about them, please e-mail me PRIVATELY,
because I respect the list. Thanks, Iris
irisspringflower yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2-Jan-2001 20:53:19 GMT
From: (irisspringflower yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Waldorf "reverence" for Lucifer
Chris Brostrup-Jensen wrote:
) On Mon, 1 Jan 2001, iris springflower (irisspringflower yahoo.com)
) wrote:
)
) )Oh my! A SCHOOL teaching kids to have "respect" for
) )Lucifer?! It IS "religious" all right--I say NO
) )public funds for Waldorf schools!! This really angers
) )me!
) )So the WE folks I know may actualy "respect" Lucifer?!
) ) You see, before being on this list I didn't know all
) )these truths about their beliefs. I never thought to
) )ask them because I wasn't interested in joining them
) )in their "spiritual" rituals. I HAVE heard of
) )Satanists, though, and Lucifer and Satan are the SAME!
)
) Iris, I can understand your distress. I was taken aback
) at first as well by the name Lucifer. I was taught that
) Lucifer and Satan were one and the same being. Even
) a very cursory reading of Steiner, however, makes clear
) that this is not true in Anthroposophy. This is another of
) those cases where Steiner has appropriated the name of
) a mythological being from one context and used it in a
) different one with a different meaning. That is quite
) obvious, for example, in the Steiner essay "Christ in Relation
) to Lucifer and Ahriman" (from 1915) that Sune pointed us
) at a couple days ago (more thoughts on that in a separate
) email in just a sec). I don't know the history of the two
) terms "Lucifer" and "Satan", nor do I know why they refer
) to the same being in at least most of the Christian traditions
) with which I have become familiar. But it is quite clear that
) for Steiner and anthroposophists they are most certainly
) *not* the same, or at least not the name of the all-consuming
) Enemy of God and humanity.
)
) Trying to figure this out,
) Chris
)
) Chris Brostrup-Jensen
) Father of a 4-year-old at
) Meadowbrook Waldorf School
) Rhode Island, USA
) C_Brostrup-Jensen Brown.edu
)
Thanks for reading my post, Chris, and for replying to it. I believe
even if Steiner didn't mean that Lucifer and Satan were the same, MOPST
people in the world who are familiar with The Bible DO consider them to
be one in the same. So, at the best there will be outrage about having
"respect" for Lucifer. The fact, IMO, is that I notice many WE and New
Age people (as part of their hostility towards Judeo-Christian beliefs)
tend to "honor" WHATEVER gods and goddesses and spirits (even to the
point of outright exploitation, as in their "use"(abuse) of true Native
American beliefs and practices)they choose to.
If SERIOUSLY questioned (but not always), they MAY outright tell of
their hatred towards The Judeo-Christian God. I am sure there are many
reasons why they hate God (Judeo-Christian), but I wish they were more
HONEST in their hatred and hostility instead of using the "foreign"
gods/goddeses/spirits as a way to APPEAR "positive", "loving", and
"spiritual". In other words, in their avoidence of appearing "negative"
(angry) they will say and practice the "foreign" beliefs, and even have
respect for what they believe Lucifer is.
Best Wishes, Iris
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2-Jan-2001 20:59:06 GMT
From: Neil Faiman (faiman jlc.net)
Subject: RE: Waldorf "reverence" for Lucifer
Chris Brostrup-Jensen wrote:
) I was taken aback at first as well by the name Lucifer.
) ... But it is quite clear that
) for Steiner and anthroposophists they are most certainly
) *not* the same, or at least not the name of the all-consuming
) Enemy of God and humanity.
)
) Trying to figure this out,
) Chris
I really hate to say this here, but ... Steiner is difficult :-). A
major part of the difficulty is that if you read a dozen different book
or lecture passages about some Anthroposophical concept, you will
probably find a dozen different presentations, with differences ranging
from subtle variations on a theme to flat-out contradictions. (I
suppose that for the true believers, there is probably some higher
resolution that is inaccessible by ordinary materialistic reasoning. :-)
The situation is probably at its very worst when dealing with Lucifer
and Ahriman, but I think it's possible to make some generalizations that
don't miss the mark too badly. (Let me emphasize that this is my
attempt to summarize what I have read in Steiner, not my own beliefs.
I'll be happy to try and provide references for particular points, if
anyone really cares, but it would take me a while.)
(1) Although Steiner usually uses "Lucifer" and "Ahriman" as simple
proper names, as though they denoted unique beings, he refers elsewhere
to "Luciferic spirits" and "Ahrimanic spirits", and I get the fairly
clear impression that the proper-name forms are being used as a
shorthand for the collective forms. The phrase "adversarial spirits" is
sometimes used to refer to Lucifer and Ahriman together (or to the
Luciferic and Ahrimanic spirits collectively). [ambiguity level:
moderate]
(2) The place of these spirits in the angelic hierarchy is definitely
ambiguous. In at least one place Steiner clearly confines them to the
levels of the angels and archangels (and maybe the archai -- my memory
is fuzzy here), while in another place he equally clearly says that
there are Luciferic and Ahrimanic spirits at every level of the
hierarchy. [ambiguity level: high]
(3) I have seen a specific reference to "Satan" in one lecture. There
are also very obscure references to other evil spirits (asuras?).
[ambiguity level: high]
(4) The adversarial spirits are "fallen" spirits which are working in
opposition to the divine will for the development of humanity and the
world, but they had or have proper roles in that development. Their
opposition is basically in the nature of "one sidedness" -- an attempt
to elevate one aspect of the divinely-intended human/world nature to
supremacy. They can both be thought of as spirits of good things that
become evil when taken to extremes. [ambiguity level: low] [Exactly
*how* they interfere and have interfered is highly ambiguous, though.]
(5) Very, very roughly, Ahriman can be thought of as the spirit of
materialism, and Lucifer as the spirit of spiritualism. Ahriman stands
for the principle that the material world is all that matters (or all
that exists), and Lucifer for the principle that the material world
should be rejected for spiritual purity. Ahriman is the spirit of
collectivism, Lucifer of individualism; Ahriman of form and rigidity,
Lucifer of fluidity. [ambiguity level: low; vagueness level: high]
(5) With the sort of exuberant dualism that I'm sure you've already
observed, just about *every* social, cultural, intellectual, spiritual,
and aesthetic phenomenon or tendency can be assigned, in greater or
lesser degree, to Lucifer or Ahriman. [ambiguity level: low to
moderate]
(6) Trying to reject everything that is of Lucifer and/or Ahriman would
be both wrong-headed and impossible. The trick is to bring things into
their appropriate balance, allocating the various spiritual influences
to their appropriate realms. [ambiguity level: moderate (this is the
heart of the Luciferic/Ahrimanic issue, but trying to express -- or
understand -- the ideal in anything other than cliches about balance is
exceptionally hard)]
These would be roughly the collection of concepts that I would have in
mind if I were to talk about Lucifer and Ahriman while trying to "speak
anthroposphish".
-Neil Faiman
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2-Jan-2001 21:08:40 GMT
From: (irisspringflower yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Steffi in Finland
Deborah Kelly wrote:
)
) )
) ) Not my logic, that's military logic; I don't think
) ) so, either.
) ) According to Steiner, from age 7 to 14 the child is
) ) supposed to live
) ) in reverence for authority.
)
) What happens when the authority figure decides to have
) sex with the child. Is the child to obey because
) he/she is not ready to make certain decisions and is
) supposed to revere the authority figure. How does
) this differ from what, for example, happened (still
) happens) in the Catholic church between priests and
) the children over whom they have authority? Doesn't
) this sort of obedience to authority actually endanger
) children and therefore all of us? What is authority
) anyway. Isn't it simply the person with power over
) someone else?
)
) DK
)
) __________________________________________________
) Do You Yahoo!?
) Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
) http://photos.yahoo.com/
I AGREE, Deborah! Great point!
Take Care and Best wishes,
Iris
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2-Jan-2001 21:09:10 GMT
From: Neil Faiman (faiman jlc.net)
Subject: RE: MORE on Lucifer, etc. in schools
iris springflower wrote:
) Hi. To add to my last post, I feel if ANY school
) teaches that "Lucifer is good" or to "worship and
) revere spirits", ...
Iris,
I don't think that anyone has suggested that anything in Waldorf schools
has to do with "revering Lucifer," or teaching anything about Lucifer,
much less that "Lucifer is good." I think that two different discussion
threads are going on here.
On the one hand, there is the Waldorf idea that it is important for
child development that the child be able to revere some adult (and the
weird process by which what was obviously a prescription for *adults* to
try to be worthy of reverence has apparently gotten perverted into a
need to make the *children* feel reverence, deserved or not).
On the other hand is the discussion of the role of the spiritual being
or beings denoted as "Lucifer" in the anthroposophic world-view, for
which I would reference another recent post by me.
I don't think that anybody's tried to weave those two threads into
"Waldorf schools teach children to revere Lucifer", though.
Neil Faiman
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 16:46:10 -0500
From: Newpaul (dingman mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: Steiner essay on Lucifer, Ahriman and WW1
Chris
At one point he recounts
) the tragic and senseless accidental death of a 7-year-old boy, son
) of a local anthroposophist in Dornach. Steiner finds meaning in
) this boy's death because the boy's etheric body, still so robust and
) full of energy, would hang around, associated with the Goethenaeum
) he was then building there. It verges on seeing the boy's death as
) a voluntary self-sacrifice to feed the holy temple. The whole
) passage turned my stomach.
Newpaul
thanks for the research Chris. Now you see Steiner is even wackier than
we critics claimed. This is one of those quotes that has escaped the
editors pen over at the anthroposophic press. They really try to
contain this kind of postulation, and only make it available to the
initiated. It is also one of those ugly mean spirited karmic stories.
There are plenty of real karma horror stories in the archives that
concern real Waldorf teachers and kids who suffered at their expense.
Newpaul
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 23:30:17 +0100
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Steiner essay on Lucifer, Ahriman and WW1
Chris Brostrup-Jensen wrote:
Me:
) )As for Steiner's view, maybe a lecture at
) )http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/ChrLuc_index.html can clarify how he
) )viewed some aspects of your questions.
...
Chris:
) The essay [...] bored me because, like so much of the (yes, still very
) limited) Steiner reading I have done, it is needlessly verbose, pompous,
) self-important and extremely self-justifying.
...
) This essay is not really ...
...
) this essay is primarily ...
...
) this essay sheds only a small amount of light
...
) [Rudolf Steiner writes]
...
If one looks at the URL (above) and reads the subtitle and the
description of where and when the lecture was held, it says that what
you refer to as 'essay' is a lecture, transcribed and printed. The words
are spoken words to local members of the Anthroposophical Society (not
explained at the page) in the vicinity if Linz in Austria, not written
words, as the very greatest part (in the order of 90%) of what can be
read of Steiner today. It was one of the at least 9 lectures he held in
May 1915, one every third day in principle.
http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/lectures.txt;bytes=89064-99485
The building of Goetheanum in Dornach was the central project of the
Anthroposophical Society at the time. The lecture was an internal
lecture for the members of the society (not a public, published essay)
in which he tried to explain to them what the new project and the
sculpture he spent much time working at was about.
Being about one year of four into the first World War, he put the work
into context of the what was developing as the war. But it was primarily
an internal lecture for some members of the Anthroposophical Society in
Austria telling them about the work in Dornach, Switzerland, putting it
into the context of contemporary happenings.
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 112
-- Topica Digest -- issue 113
creeping New Ageism in medicine, healthcare
By momof2gals mindspring.com
RE: Waldorf "reverence" for Lucifer
By snell netshel.net
sticky business
By momof2gals mindspring.com
About Lucifer thread again
By irisspringflower yahoo.com
on an 'unenlightened' comment
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
Re: Waldorf "reverence" for Lucifer
By dingman mindspring.com
Re: creeping New Ageism in medicine, healthcare
By canndw netzero.net
Re: Steiner essay on Lucifer, Ahriman and WW1
By Rechomba cs.com
Re: creeping New Ageism in medicine, healthcare
By momof2gals mindspring.com
karma link
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: nurturing and cultivating imagination and the arts in WE
By dingman mindspring.com
Re: Waldorf "reverence" for Lucifer
By Rechomba cs.com
Re: Waldorf "reverence" for Lucifer
By snell netshel.net
Re: MORE on Lucifer, etc. in schools
By Rechomba cs.com
Re: Steffi in Finland
By Rechomba cs.com
Re: Steffi in Finland
By snell netshel.net
Re: Non-Christian Saints discussion on SJU
By Rechomba cs.com
Re: Steiner essay on Lucifer, Ahriman and WW1
By dan dandugan.com
Re: MORE on Lucifer, etc. in schools
By dan dandugan.com
Re: karma link
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
Re: creeping New Ageism in medicine, healthcare
By dan dandugan.com
Re: creeping New Ageism in medicine, healthcare
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 18:01:18 -0400
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: creeping New Ageism in medicine, healthcare
In a very insightful and interesting post, Iris writes:
((BUT I now find out that New Age practices are
integrated into mainstream
medical/psychotherapy/self-help therapies.))
Lisa here: Right you are, Iris, and troubling it is, indeed! New Age
quackery is all around us, and it is very difficult for the average health
care consumer to differentiate between what is legitimate "science" and what
is nonsense, because of the increasingly blurred line between medical
science and New Ageism.
For an example, just note how many hospitals now have "complimentary and
alternative health centers" attached to their regular services. Our two
local community-based medical centers here in the Baltimore suburb where I
live offer everything from Rolfing to acupuncture to homeopathy and "energy
work." It is difficult for one to find a massage therapist who does not do
this so-called "energy work," and even mainstream doctors are recommending
some of these unproven (and sometimes dangerous) modalities for chronic pain
patients such as myself who they cannot help in standard ways.
Fortunately, there IS information about how the New Age/quackery movement
has invaded Western medicine through a journal called "Scientific Review of
Alternative Medicine." The editor, Dr. Wallace Sampson, is an advisor to
PLANS (or on the board -- please forgive me for not knowing which!) is a
retired professor of medicine at Stanford University. You can read some of
the journal's article's by doing a web search for the journal name ... it is
very much worth reading.
Dr. Sampson, with whom I have communicated by e-mail briefly, is apparently
interested in Anthroposophic medicine and in student reactions to Waldorf
education (cognitive dissonance, etc.)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 15:38:09 -0800
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: RE: Waldorf "reverence" for Lucifer
Neil:
)I really hate to say this here, but ... Steiner is difficult :-).
[Debra]
I don't see Steiner as difficult at all.
Steiner was a horrific and boring public speaker whose thoughts were
jumbled and words intentionally deceptive and yes, Neil, even
contradictory. Steiner essentially absconded his so-called "special
knowledge" from other people, all the while claiming he received it because
of his clairvoyant powers. With his narcissistic personality, he "invented"
Anthroposophy, the goolash of the New Age movement. (Anthroposophy: A
pinch of this new age belief and a little of that new age belief. Throw in
occult magic, polytheisum, necromancy, Christianity, and anything else you
have ever read or heard about. Stir together and bake for at 325 degrees
until half done. That is Anthroposophy.)
The only difficult thing about Steiner is following his trail to his
mentors whose ideas he absconded from, thus showing he didn't have many
original thoughts in his head, and even this isn't very difficult. If
Steiner were alive today, he would be called a plagiarizer.
Like Dorothy's smart little dog, PLANS is revealing the truth, all the
while the Anthroposophists, with heads firmly planted in sand, yell
"Ignore the man behind the curtain!"
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 19:13:12 -0400
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: sticky business
In a wonderfully-amusing-but-also-painful-to-read account of his/her
experience with a Waldorf playgroup, Spreckraybill tells us:
"Moving on down to craft time, the teacher literally lost it when my 4 yr
old son reached out and picked up the glue stick that she had set in front
of him. "
Lisa here: Wow, 4 year old children got to use GLUESTICKS???!!!
I honestly do not think that in any of the six years that my children
(collectively) spent in our local WS nursery/kindy (which they call "The
Children's Garden") that they ever used gluesticks. (I do know that they
WERE given gluesticks when they reached elementary school age, however.)
In the nursery school, everything that had to be attached to something
else was either sewn by the children themselves, or appeared magically glued
together (by the teacher) in the morning. (Example: the little dolls made of
acorns and pipe-cleaner wrapped wire given to children on their birthdays.
The acorn head was glued onto the body before the children arrived.)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 16:25:00 -0800 (PST)
From: iris springflower (irisspringflower yahoo.com)
Subject: About Lucifer thread again
Thanks for reading my post and replying to it, Neil. I
understand what you're saying. I just know from the
Waldorf people whom I know, that they tend to have
(and try to hide in order to appear
"positive")hostility and anger towards
(Judeo-Christian) God, for whatever reason. I ADMIT I
have hostility towards Lucifer (in my belief) and what
he stands for (evil, abuse, and hedonism, IMO). I am
not trying to hide my anger and even hostility towards
Lucifer and also New Age practices. It Does anger me a
LOT! Besides my anger, I just AVOID going to New Age
ceremonies and such. I don't tell those who follow
them to NOT do so, as long as I know that no children
or vulnerable adults are being hurt through those
practices.
Best Wishes to All here,
Iris
ps this list is helping me with my critical thinking
skills. Thanks.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
http://photos.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 01:26:07 +0100
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: on an 'unenlightened' comment
Debra Snell wrote:
) What mother in her right mind would not think to check on a 7 year
) old boy who had not been seen since late afternoon?
Cheap shot, only showing you actually haven't read what you are
commenting on.
If you read what Steiner actually tells in the lecture, he does not say
that the mother had not checked on her 7 year old boy since late
afternoon.
He says:
'After the lecture someone appeared and reported that little Theodor's
mother had not seen him since late in the afternoon.'
'Little Theodor had been in the canteen [...}. He had been delayed
there, otherwise he would have gone home earlier with the food that he
had fetched from the canteen for supper.'
It appears the mother had been worried about her son for so long (since
about half past five, when he probably was expected to come home with
the supper he had fetched in the canteen) that so many people were
involved in looking for him that even Steiner was informed about it at
10 in the evening after he had held a lecture.
) [Chris]
)
) )( Snip little side trip into how unenlightened folks get confused about
) )causes and effects.)
The side trip is not a discussion of 'unenlightened folks' in any
general sense. It discusses how easy it is to form unfounded judgements
based on too little knowledge (like you, Debra, in the posting this is
an answer to ...), exemplifying with how very easy it can be to be
mistaken when trying to judge the reason for people's death, as that is
one of basic themes of the lecture, with all the young soldiers dying in
the fields at the time, discussing what some aspects of what happens
when people die, and a difference between Russians and Frenchmen in this
context.
Steiner:
'causes are mistaken for effects, and vice versa. I have frequently used
the following example. A person falls into the river and people hurry to
the spot where it happened. When they find a rock, they conjecture that
the victim had stumbled over it and this caused him to fall into the
river and drown. Thus, they are sure that the man had died because he
fell into the river.
If one were to conduct an autopsy, however, it might turn out that he
had suffered a heart attack and as a result, was already dead when he
fell into the water, but he fell into the water because he had died. You
will frequently encounter a similar confusion of cause and effect when
life situations are assessed, and even more frequently in the general
sciences.'
The comment has nothing to do as such with the 'enlightedness' or
'unenlightenedness' _as such_ in general of _people_, as personal
qualities. The side trip concerns 'unenlightenedness' in relation to
actual knowledge of facts and of the relations between causes and
effects and what is the reason or cause of what in life.
) [Debra]
)
) Thanks for sparing me. I already understand how unenlightened I am
) according to Steiner.
No need for despair! Just read before commenting too much ... :-)
(http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/ChrLuc_index.html in this case, not
to become 'convinced' of anything, but maybe at least have read what you
comment on.)
) )[Chris again]
) )I think this speaks for itself.
)
) [Debra]
)
) Unfortunately it does.
)
) Chris, I'm beginning to detect a shift in your writing and opinion on this
) list. I would love to see Robert Flannery or any other Anthroposophist on
) the list address your concerns while they still have time.
To the extent that you refer to me, I feel no personal need whatsoever
or special responsibility to convince Chris of anything. I'm happy if he
does what is right for him in his life and trust he has the judgement to
decide that for himself, without my 'help'.
The main thing that disturbs me on this list and the site of PLANS is
the degree of carelessness, prejudice, uninformed untruthfulness and at
times obsessive skewedness with which things that concern anthroposophy,
waldorf education and other related issues tend do be discussed on the
list.
I'm also disturbed by the experiences some people seem to have had at
Waldorf schools in US, that in a number of cases for different reasons
seem to develop in a way that is not what I would consider to be good
Waldorf education, doing it justice in its essence, as I understand it,
even if they probably in most cases put much effort into it.
Regards,
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 21:15:39 -0500
From: Newpaul (dingman mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf "reverence" for Lucifer
RUFF RUFF GO DEBRA GRRRRRR!
Debra Snell wrote:
)
) Neil:
)
) )I really hate to say this here, but ... Steiner is difficult :-).
)
) [Debra]
)
) I don't see Steiner as difficult at all.
)
) Steiner was a horrific and boring public speaker whose thoughts were
) jumbled and words intentionally deceptive and yes, Neil, even
) contradictory. Steiner essentially absconded his so-called "special
) knowledge" from other people, all the while claiming he received it because
) of his clairvoyant powers. With his narcissistic personality, he "invented"
) Anthroposophy, the goolash of the New Age movement. (Anthroposophy: A
) pinch of this new age belief and a little of that new age belief. Throw in
) occult magic, polytheisum, necromancy, Christianity, and anything else you
) have ever read or heard about. Stir together and bake for at 325 degrees
) until half done. That is Anthroposophy.)
)
) The only difficult thing about Steiner is following his trail to his
) mentors whose ideas he absconded from, thus showing he didn't have many
) original thoughts in his head, and even this isn't very difficult. If
) Steiner were alive today, he would be called a plagiarizer.
)
) Like Dorothy's smart little dog, PLANS is revealing the truth, all the
) while the Anthroposophists, with heads firmly planted in sand, yell
)
) "Ignore the man behind the curtain!"
)
)
)
) ___________________________________________________________
) T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17
) Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 21:19:15 -0500
From: "David Cann" (canndw netzero.net)
Subject: Re: creeping New Ageism in medicine, healthcare
I was recently surprised to find out that training in Reiki is an allowable
continuing education credit for registered nurses around here.
David
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
To: "waldorf-critics" (waldorf-critics topica.com)
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 6:04 PM
Subject: creeping New Ageism in medicine, healthcare
) In a very insightful and interesting post, Iris writes:
)
) ((BUT I now find out that New Age practices are
) integrated into mainstream
) medical/psychotherapy/self-help therapies.))
)
) Lisa here: Right you are, Iris, and troubling it is, indeed! New Age
) quackery is all around us, and it is very difficult for the average health
) care consumer to differentiate between what is legitimate "science" and
what
) is nonsense, because of the increasingly blurred line between medical
) science and New Ageism.
)
) For an example, just note how many hospitals now have "complimentary and
) alternative health centers" attached to their regular services. Our two
) local community-based medical centers here in the Baltimore suburb where I
) live offer everything from Rolfing to acupuncture to homeopathy and
"energy
) work." It is difficult for one to find a massage therapist who does not do
) this so-called "energy work," and even mainstream doctors are recommending
) some of these unproven (and sometimes dangerous) modalities for chronic
pain
) patients such as myself who they cannot help in standard ways.
)
) Fortunately, there IS information about how the New Age/quackery movement
) has invaded Western medicine through a journal called "Scientific Review
of
) Alternative Medicine." The editor, Dr. Wallace Sampson, is an advisor to
) PLANS (or on the board -- please forgive me for not knowing which!) is a
) retired professor of medicine at Stanford University. You can read some of
) the journal's article's by doing a web search for the journal name ... it
is
) very much worth reading.
)
) Dr. Sampson, with whom I have communicated by e-mail briefly, is
apparently
) interested in Anthroposophic medicine and in student reactions to Waldorf
) education (cognitive dissonance, etc.)
)
) ___________________________________________________________
) T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17
) Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
)
)
Shop Safely Online Without a Credit Card
http://www.rocketcash.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 21:43:44 EST
From: Rechomba cs.com
Subject: Re: Steiner essay on Lucifer, Ahriman and WW1
In a message dated 1/2/01 1:48:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20
c_brostrup-jensen brown.edu writes:
Chris quoting Steiner's lecture:
RS:
) The situation with little Theodor was that his karma had expired, so that=20
) it is actually
) possible to say, =E2=80=9CHe himself ordered the van to the place of the=20
accident.=E2=80=9D=20
) =20
In contemporary parlance, this is called "new age quilt". If you have a=20
disease, for example, you "chose" it for some reason or has karmic relevance=
=20
either from this life or the past one. It is rampant in new age=20
psychology/medical therapy.
=20
Ray
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 22:52:19 -0400
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: creeping New Ageism in medicine, healthcare
David, you would be surprised at what all -- including Reiki -- is allowed
for CEU credits everywhere these days!
You know, I used to think that the ideal medical system would be one in
which the best of so-called "alternative" approaches would be combined with
what is known as "allopathic" or "Western" medicine (read: science-based
medical practice.)
However, after years (and I mean that literally!) of working with both the
alternative folks and the allopathic folks on my severe and chronic headache
problem (daily, unremitting head pain that is diagnosed as a combination of
classic migraine and mixed headaches of "unknown origin"), I find the
current level of acceptance for the "alternative" approaches somewhat
frightening. The reasons I find this frightening are too manifold to go into
here, but the bottom line is that there is SOOO much irrational, unproven
and just plain bad practice in the alternative community. (I admit that
there also is bad practice and irresponsible practitioners in the allopathic
community. However, there generally are stricter controls/licensing on
allopathic practitioners.)
Believe me, I have been around the alternative health community. I have had
acupuncture, homeopathy, Auryveda, traditional Chinese medicine, herbs,
massage, chiropractic, "energy" work ... I have even been burned (with an
Asian herb called "moxa") and bled (deliberately, with acupuncture needles.)
I am now at the point (no pun intended!) where I accept treatment only from
licensed, allopathic physicians who know what they are doing. Fortunately, I
have found one, and we are working together on my particular difficulty.
All this widespread acceptance of irrational, woo woo (based on no research,
just anecdotes) disturbs me. If practitioners of this stuff would be
forthcoming about the lack of evidence behind it, I would feel much better.
As it is, I just look back at all I went through (and spent!) in a vain hope
of getting help, and I shake my head.
----------
)From: David Cann (canndw netzero.net)
)To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)Subject: Re: creeping New Ageism in medicine, healthcare
)Date: Tue, Jan 2, 2001, 10:26 PM
)
) I was recently surprised to find out that training in Reiki is an allowable
) continuing education credit for registered nurses around here.
)
) David
)
) ----- Original Message -----
) From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
) To: "waldorf-critics" (waldorf-critics topica.com)
) Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 6:04 PM
) Subject: creeping New Ageism in medicine, healthcare
)
)
)) In a very insightful and interesting post, Iris writes:
))
)) ((BUT I now find out that New Age practices are
)) integrated into mainstream
)) medical/psychotherapy/self-help therapies.))
))
)) Lisa here: Right you are, Iris, and troubling it is, indeed! New Age
)) quackery is all around us, and it is very difficult for the average health
)) care consumer to differentiate between what is legitimate "science" and
) what
)) is nonsense, because of the increasingly blurred line between medical
)) science and New Ageism.
))
)) For an example, just note how many hospitals now have "complimentary and
)) alternative health centers" attached to their regular services. Our two
)) local community-based medical centers here in the Baltimore suburb where I
)) live offer everything from Rolfing to acupuncture to homeopathy and
) "energy
)) work." It is difficult for one to find a massage therapist who does not do
)) this so-called "energy work," and even mainstream doctors are recommending
)) some of these unproven (and sometimes dangerous) modalities for chronic
) pain
)) patients such as myself who they cannot help in standard ways.
))
)) Fortunately, there IS information about how the New Age/quackery movement
)) has invaded Western medicine through a journal called "Scientific Review
) of
)) Alternative Medicine." The editor, Dr. Wallace Sampson, is an advisor to
)) PLANS (or on the board -- please forgive me for not knowing which!) is a
)) retired professor of medicine at Stanford University. You can read some of
)) the journal's article's by doing a web search for the journal name ... it
) is
)) very much worth reading.
))
)) Dr. Sampson, with whom I have communicated by e-mail briefly, is
) apparently
)) interested in Anthroposophic medicine and in student reactions to Waldorf
)) education (cognitive dissonance, etc.)
))
)) ___________________________________________________________
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)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 23:16:37 -0400
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: karma link
For your information (and amusement, if you are a critic!), here is a link
about Karma that I stumbled upon doing research on Waldorf/Anthroposophy,
etc.:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/triform/karma.htm
Enjoy!
Lisa
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 23:33:24 -0500
From: Newpaul (dingman mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: nurturing and cultivating imagination and the arts in WE
Sune, I am a little late replying to your wonderful essay on the nurture
and cultivation of the children's imagination in waldorf Schools.
Since Steiner decided to change the meanings of words to give them
secret coded meanings, I must first filter your comments through the
anthrospeak decoder.
The following terms were kicked out to be decoded so we can understand
the true meaning.
"Imagination" - being a stage of knowledge to experience the
supersensible world
"Nurture" - that which helps the child open his spiritual channels i.e..
painting shapeless blobs in one or two specific colors in a meditative state.
"experience" - a carefully controlled and staged event designed to speak
to the child's spirit and "imagination" and prepare him to experience
the supersensible world.
"understanding" - being able to expel all critical thinking skills and
believe Steiner's Occult Science is real science.
"cultivation" - working in a highly controlled environment (like a
Waldorf Classroom) where a seeds of the occult can be planted without
opposition from critical thinking.
"inspirational nourishment" anthroposophy!
"treasure of human cultural evolution" - treasures of the mystical,
magical, mythical, and the occult filtered through Steiner's
anthroposophical spiritual revelations that show without a doubt that
Atlantis existed and white aryans are the most spiritually advanced race.
Sune Nordwall wrote:
)
) But encouraging 'imagination' in children in the broad sense does not
) only mean encouraging the making of pictures. It also entails nurturing
) the imagination in a broad artistic sense in terms of nurturing their
) imagination with the tales and stories that constitute the treasures of
) human cultural evolution, with music and songs and giving them a sense
) of the richness of life in nature developing through the rhythms of the
) year.
Anthrospeak decoder:
But encouraging the experience of the supersensible world in children in
the broad sense does not only mean encouraging the making of pictures.
It also entails opening the child's spiritual channels to the
supersensible world in a broad artistic sense in terms of nurturing them
with tales and stories that constitute the treasures of the mystical,
magical, mythical, and occult that make up anthroposophy and with music
and songs and giving a sense of the richness of their aryan heritage
through the rhythms of the year.
Sune
) Personally, I find the performing and participation in the making by 3rd
) graders of the Advent spiral that Debra described in full in a posting
) to be one such rich inspirational nourishment. What experience does it
) give the 10 year olds? And how will they think about it later in school
) and in life?
)
) I think, when they study astronomy later in the upper grades they will
) have a much richer experience of the nature of galaxies, the greatest
) observable structures in the universe, where they will recognize what
) they experienced as the Advent spiral as 3rd graders.
)
) They will have a feeling how there is an at least potential centre in
) all galaxies, at least belonging to the spiral type and how there is a
) relation between what can be found as suns/suns as centres of solar
) systems and the centre of the spiral galaxies because they have
) themselves made the spiral and experienced that there is an inner
) relation between the centre of the (spiral) galaxies and the suns as at
) least partly centres of solar systems.
)
) They will not only look somewhat distractedly at beautiful pictures of
) galaxies in later years, learning their names or astronomical codes, but
) also relate to them out of their own childhood experience in the 3rd
) grade.
)
) In the lower grades they will (probably) also learn and experience basic
) qualities of mathematics and the relation between different numbers and
) forms by participating in making and experiencing them themselves, as
) simple walking of forms in the class room, concrete mathematics done and
) experienced with their foots walking forms.
)
) They will do it experiencing the musical-rhythmical aspect of
) mathematics, also letting them understand more concretely how the
) planets move at different paces around the sun in our solar system. They
) learn in a simple, way in the lower grades to understand some of the
) basic relations between numbers, forms, astronomical relations and
) musical rhythms, that in one form comes to expression as 'multiplicatory
) tables'(?) in mathematics and 'Table of the chemical elements' in
) chemistry, depicting the common musical element in both mathematics and
) chemistry.
Newpaul
I am disturbed by the false reverence that is imparted to the kids in
many Waldorf rituals. Children should be taught to reverence that which
is spiritually or culturally significant to themselves via their
families. Respect should be taught in school, reverence should be left
to parochial schools or families or churches. The kids in waldorf
schools don't even realize the significance of the Advent Spiral, they
aren't told what it represents. They are expected to experience this
without understanding what it represents. This imparts a sense of
reverence as a mimicking of what the teacher reverences. Reverence is
constantly used in Waldorf to add significance to various activities
which will later prove to have an anthroposophical significance. I
could share numerous incidents from my personal experience but to be
brief, the latest was my 11 year old being asked to reverence RA the
Egyptian Sun God with a verse of praise. He was so disturbed by the
false reverence, he refused. My son knows to be leery of Waldorf's
false reverence and stupid rituals.
Sune
) 'imagination' (not 'Imagination' in the 'technical' anthroposophical
) sense, related to a purely inner activity and primarily the 'seeing'
) experience) is nourished in WE in training to experience in an artistic
) way the relation between different contexts in terms of music, numbers,
) astronomy, light/darkness/colours, forms, symmetries, poetical
) expressions, words and sounds as the basic components of language.
)
) They give the basic nourishment for the soul mainly during the first 7
) years in school being an experiental basis out of which the concepts and
) more theoretical analysis' then are developed in the upper grades, not
) only learned as something purely abstract that someone has come up with,
) and that they will learn for the tests and then forget, but as something
) they can understand because they during the first seven years in school
) through their own experience have a relation to.
Newpaul
Yes but it all comes with an Anthroposophical foundation and intent and
this is built into the system as evidence by Thorin Finser's book School
as a Journey. The true motives and intents are revealed when one
studies his 5th grade curriculum. The intent of 5th grade ancient
history is reveal the occult and the doctrines of Lucifer and Ahriman,
reincarnation, karma, and Isis and the Egyptian Mystery schools.
Sune
) I think this maybe points to the way art and imagination is nurtured and
) cultivated in WE; art, the arts are used, nurtured and cultivated
) primarily as a means of approaching nature and human culture; of
) relating to and being the primarily basis, especially in the lower
) grades (1-7), for _understanding_ nature and human culture (over the
) last almost 10 000 years), not primarily as a means of self-expression.
Please review the anthrospeak definitions above. This paragraph says it
all. To nurture and cultivate is a means of tightly controlling the
kids to approach nature and human culture; of relating to and being the
primary basis for Anthroposophical understanding. Sune you are talking
about the exact same thing I am. Waldorf controls every facet of the
education and environment to manipulate the kids into anthroposophy or
at the very least, to be highly receptive to accepting it.
Sune
) That may be viewed as a weakness from a perspective of viewing
) imagination and the arts _primarily_ as a tool for self-expression.
) Maybe that difference and conflict is most pointed in American cultural
) contexts, where the expression of ones own personality is one of the
) central issues.
)
) To come back to what I wanted to write in the beginning:
)
) I think one needs to see how 'imagination' (not 'Imagination') is
) cultivated in WE:
)
) 1. It is cultivated not primarily as the formation of inner pictures (as
) in 'Imagination') or making of external pictures (as a means of self
) expression), but in relation to all the arts in their basic components
) and expressions.
Newpaul
You are talking about controlling the imagination and all of the arts
and curriculum to produce a desired effect with anthroposophical motive
and intent.
)
Sune
) 2. It is cultivated not only or primarily related to the 'sight'
) experience (as in 'Imagination') but as stepwise training of the _tools_
) of the arts (even if maybe oil on canvas, or advanced printing
) techniques not are included in the lower grades, different printing
) techniques come later in the upper grades) in relation to the basic
) components of the visual and 'oral' arts; slowly stepwise in different
) forms building a basic understanding of their components; light,
) colours, forms, rhythms, harmonies and 'melody' an developing the
) handicrafts through the grades.
Newpaul
The entire curriculum is designed to work together to bring about a
desire effect. Yes I see that very plainly. It gives new significance
to the waldorf claim that they will teach my children how to "think."
)
Sune
) 3. It is not cultivated _primarily_ as a tool of self-expression, but as
) a tool of _understanding_ nature and the cultures of man and humanity
) and in the description and depicting of the patterns, regularities and
) qualities of natural phenomena and expressions of human culture, coming
) to expression in among other ways the 'Main Lesson Books'.
Newpaul
-understanding-
"understanding" - being able to expel all critical thinking skills and
believe wet on wet blobs are art and that Steiner was a "scientist"
rather than a mystical occultist.
Sorry Sune, I am just to jaded to take any pro waldorf essay's at *face* value.
Newpaul
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 01:15:01 EST
From: Rechomba cs.com
Subject: Re: Waldorf "reverence" for Lucifer
In a message dated 1/2/01 6:36:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, snell netshel.net
writes:
Debra:
) Like Dorothy's smart little dog, PLANS is revealing the truth, all the
) while the Anthroposophists, with heads firmly planted in sand, yell
)
) "Ignore the man behind the curtain!"
This is, by far, one of my favorite expressions. Beautifully applied.
Ray
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 22:35:47 -0800
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: Waldorf "reverence" for Lucifer
)In a message dated 1/2/01 6:36:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, snell netshel.net
)writes:
)
)Debra:
)) Like Dorothy's smart little dog, PLANS is revealing the truth, all the
)) while the Anthroposophists, with heads firmly planted in sand, yell
))
)) "Ignore the man behind the curtain!"
[Ray]
)This is, by far, one of my favorite expressions. Beautifully applied.
)Ray
[Debra]
Mine too! I just love that movie. Talk about a parable. I can't think of a
better one unless it is perhaps 'Hansel and Grettel.' That works for me
too. Both are really great parables fro Waldorf's unsuspecting families.
Waldorf loves parables. Anyone else notice that? I can thank my exposure to
Waldorf for allowing me to think in those terms. It wasn't all bad, and I
have always recognized that.
Iris mentioned how this list has sharpened her critical thinking skills. I
agree. It has sharpened mine as well. I must thank my exposure to Waldorf
for that. Heck, I could make my own top ten reasons for sending your
children to a Waldorf school (for the short term). While my experience felt
horrific, the end result has been powerful. I've questioned things I would
never have questioned before, and should have.
Thank you Waldorf!
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 02:18:29 EST
From: Rechomba cs.com
Subject: Re: MORE on Lucifer, etc. in schools
In a message dated 1/2/01 4:09:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, faiman jlc.net
writes:
Neil:
) On the one hand, there is the Waldorf idea that it is important for
) child development that the child be able to revere some adult
Neil, I would like to know what the idea is and it's importance from a pro WE
perspective.
) (and the
) weird process by which what was obviously a prescription for *adults* to
) try to be worthy of reverence has apparently gotten perverted into a
) need to make the *children* feel reverence, deserved or not).
)
It is a prescription for bad teachers getting undeserved "reverence". My
experience and the experience of other former W parents I know ( and,
obviously, Speckray) is one of _imposition_of authoritarian rigidity. It's
not like the teacher is providing a role model that the kiddies find worthy
of emulation. They are employing a prescribed technique which, according to
_our_ W teacher, is used principally to allow the child to "absorb"
information without "intellectualising" thereby preventing "hardening",
"quickening", "grounding" of the child's etheric body (this is pre K and K).
My eldest daughter, age 5, is asking questions about everything. According
to all the parents I know, this is normal. According to our former W teacher
(a year ago), judging by her breaking out in humming a tune (Yes, in an
annoying falsetto!),ignoring her questions or simply staring through her
vacantly, this is something to be avoided. It is not just one teacher. It is
commonplace.
Ray
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 02:28:55 EST
From: Rechomba cs.com
Subject: Re: Steffi in Finland
In a message dated 1/2/01 10:55:13 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Speckraybill aol.com writes:
) A similar situation ended my then-4 year old's participation in a
W-inspired
)
) playgroup, led by a long-time anthro and seasoned teacher. This playgroup
) was yet a third establishment in this area and had no associations with
) either school.
)
) There were 10 or so children, aged 3-4ish and it was snacktime. After the
) children were seated around the table, the teacher sat there, doing
nothing,
)
) for an unusual length of time. Then each child, one by one was asked to
) "Prepare to receive" and was required to hold out cupped hands while an
) empty
) plate was passed down the row. The child then had to set the empty plate
in
)
) front of him/her. Only when the plate was where the teacher wanted it,
was
) the next child named and asked to "Prepare to receive". After the empty
) plates were in front of each child, one by one, the procedure was
reversed.
)
) A child was named, the empty plate was passed back down the row to the
) teacher, a serving was placed on the plate, and the filled plate was
passed
) back to the child. This was repeated, one by one, until each child had a
) plate with snack in front of them. Then it was cup time. The same
) procedure
) was repeated with the empty cups being passed out first, passed back one
by
) one, filled and passed back to the children. Meanwhile, the children (
) hungry
) 3-4 years old!) were expected to sit quietly, no wiggling, with hands
folded
)
) in laps. Then after all was passed out (I was about to pass out with
) disbelief...) the teacher observed several more moments of silence (her
) silence, not the children's who were now beyond their limits of endurance)
) and then led the group in the blessing, which, I might add, was always
) pitched so highly that only a professional soprano had any hopes of
hitting
) all the notes.
Ok, you successfully freaked me out. When you began with a "similar
situation", I was not anticipating a description of the SAME experience IN
DETAIL!
Ray
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 23:44:57 -0800
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: Steffi in Finland
)Ok, you successfully freaked me out. When you began with a "similar
)situation", I was not anticipating a description of the SAME experience IN
)DETAIL!
)
)Ray
...But Waldorf schools are independent! Each one is different! How can your
experiences be alike? Hmm, this gets me thinking. (BWG)
Seen one Waldorf school, you've seen them all.
Debra
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 02:50:15 EST
From: Rechomba cs.com
Subject: Re: Non-Christian Saints discussion on SJU
In a message dated 1/2/01 10:04:55 AM Eastern Standard Time,
deborah_kelly yahoo.com writes:
Deorah:
) My understanding is that those who wrote the majority
) of the bible were of color just as Jesus was.
) However, this is not what I was getting at. Of
) course, as a minister in a mainstream religion Dr.
) King used the language of the oppressor. If he were
) still alive he, like many critical race theorists,
) would be examining the language that reflects the
) colonization of non-white people globally. Steiner's
) attributions to the white vs. black were already
) well-imbedded in Euro-centric thinking. Have you ever
) looked up the definitions for "white" and "black?" Is
) it just happenstance that "black" is negatively
) defined, while "white" is positively defined?
)
Yes, but I thought we were talking about "lightness" and "darkness". As I
recall, Malcom X eloquently brought to light the racist connotations of the
words white and black. And I agree with him.
Even he, in the end, lightened up as a racist.
Ray
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 19:29:38 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Steiner essay on Lucifer, Ahriman and WW1
Chris, thanks for quoting the story of Theodore's death. I just want
to point out that in the quote Steiner uses one of his most egregious
guru tricks. He says "anyone attuned to occult perception..." I'm
sure nobody in his audience knew what was supposed to be obvious. And
I'm sure when they heard him say it, everyone said "yes, of course."
)Since that day, anyone attuned to occult perception who is working
)artistically on the
)building in Dornach or is there simply to pursue his thoughts will
)know that the entire ether
)body of the child, with all its powers, is enlarged in the aura of
)the Dornach building.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 19:37:06 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: MORE on Lucifer, etc. in schools
Iris, you wrote,
)I am very concerned that New Age practices like Eastern meditation
)and such are not considered "religious" by many people and
)authorities. I understand these practices are taught to "relax" and
)"focus" kids, but the FACT is that these are RELIGIOUS practices,
)even though they are not Jewish or Christian.
You have touched upon one of the key points that is and will be used
in the defense of Waldorf: that there is some kind of "generic"
spirituality that is "nonsectarian" and therefore all right to teach
children of different faiths, and to use tax money to promote.
Anthroposophy claims to be such a generic spirituality. We know this
is false, that it is in fact a narrow-minded religious sect that
-claims- a nonsectarian world-view.
The U.S. Supreme Court so far (this may change!) has not bought this
argument. In Malnak v. Yogi, a Transcendental Meditation program in a
public school was declared unconstitutional, though its proponents
claimed it was scientific.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 10:00:40 +0100
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: karma link
Lisa Ercolano wrote:
) For your information (and amusement, if you are a critic!), here is a link
) about Karma that I stumbled upon doing research on Waldorf/Anthroposophy,
) etc.:
) http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/triform/karma.htm
)
) Enjoy!
A very short and still non-informative page.
For anyone interested in a more full understanding of how Steiner viewed
it, a lecture series from 1910 can be found at
http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/ManfKarma/ManKar_index.html found at
http://www.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/index.php3
Regards,
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 01:41:40 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: creeping New Ageism in medicine, healthcare
David Cann, you wrote,
)I was recently surprised to find out that training in Reiki is an allowable
)continuing education credit for registered nurses around here.
Nursing, David, has taken a post-modern plunge off the deep end in
the last decade. I ran into it accidentally half a dozen years ago
when I inquired at the source of a news article about "blue light
therapy." Discovered an institute with a newsletter and an annual
convention, The Nightingale Society. Nursing schools are teaching
Therapeutic Touch. There's an article about nursing pseudoscience in
the Skeptical Inquirer Sept/Oct 2000.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 01:50:06 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: creeping New Ageism in medicine, healthcare
Lisa, you wrote,
)I am now at the point (no pun intended!) where I accept treatment only from
)licensed, allopathic physicians who know what they are doing. Fortunately, I
)have found one, and we are working together on my particular difficulty.
Good for you. Would you do me a favor? On the skeptical side of
things we call it "evidence based medicine, or "scientific medicine."
"Allopathic" is an invention of the homeopaths, and those on the
scientific side prefer not to identify themselves by a slur. Also,
don't want real medicine to be called "Western," because it's
practiced world-wide and it's practices evolve by world-wide
research. BTW did you know only about 15% of Chinese people use
traditional Chinese medicine?
)All this widespread acceptance of irrational, woo woo (based on no research,
)just anecdotes) disturbs me. If practitioners of this stuff would be
)forthcoming about the lack of evidence behind it, I would feel much better.
)As it is, I just look back at all I went through (and spent!) in a vain hope
)of getting help, and I shake my head.
The reason this is on-topic here is that we have Anthroposophical
Medicine to deal with. After the school thing is settled I want to
work on that.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 113
-- Topica Digest -- issue 114
Re: creeping New Ageism in medicine, healthcare
By Speckraybill aol.com
Re: Steffi in Finland
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: Non-Christian Saints discussion on SJU
By deborah_kelly yahoo.com
Re: Steiner essay on Lucifer, Ahriman and WW1
By deborah_kelly yahoo.com
Authority in Waldorf (was Re: Steffi in Finland)
By c_brostrup-jensen brown.edu
alternative medicine
By irisspringflower yahoo.com
Role of imagination in Waldorf (was Re: The Most Famous...)
By c_brostrup-jensen brown.edu
Re: Yuba River's Advent invitation
By c_brostrup-jensen brown.edu
RE: Steiner essay on Lucifer, Ahriman and WW1
By irisspringflower yahoo.com
Re: The most famous thing that Eugene Schwartz never said
By c_brostrup-jensen brown.edu
False reverence
By c_brostrup-jensen brown.edu
"School as a Journey: The Eight-Year Odyssey of a Waldorf Teacher. . ."
By deborah_kelly yahoo.com
Re: Collection of PLANS lies and deceptive quoting - update
By c_brostrup-jensen brown.edu
RE: Waldorf "reverence" for Lucifer
By c_brostrup-jensen brown.edu
Re: "School as a Journey: The Eight-Year Odyssey of a Waldorf Teacher. .
."
By dingman mindspring.com
Re: Yuba River's Advent invitation
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: Steiner essay on Lucifer, Ahriman and WW1
By c_brostrup-jensen brown.edu
Re: The most famous thing that Eugene Schwartz never said
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: False reverence
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: on an 'unenlightened' comment
By c_brostrup-jensen brown.edu
Re: Yuba River's Advent invitation
By Speckraybill aol.com
New Age "quilt"?
By c_brostrup-jensen brown.edu
Re: New Age "quilt"?
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: Authority in Waldorf (was Re: Steffi in Finland)
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: on an 'unenlightened' comment
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: Yuba River's Advent invitation
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: Yuba River's Advent invitation
By snell netshel.net
Yuba River's parent Update on trial
By snell netshel.net
Re: karma link
By c_brostrup-jensen brown.edu
(no subject)
By Speckraybill aol.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 07:54:54 EST
From: Speckraybill aol.com
Subject: Re: creeping New Ageism in medicine, healthcare
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In a message dated 01/02/2001 6:27:27 PM Pacific Standard Time,
canndw netzero.net writes:
) I was recently surprised to find out that training in Reiki is an allowable
) continuing education credit for registered nurses around here.
)
) David
)
)
There are lots of alternative therapies that are offered to health care
professionals for continuing education credits. I work with several Reiki
practitioners. I also believe that some of the nurses quietly, and unknown
to their patients, practice some "energy work" on them. I do know that a bit
of this happened with the preemies (YEARS ago) when I would see certain folks
standing over a bed with eyes closed, trying to feel how far a babies "energy
field" projected and would see them trying to "smooth the ruffles" to help
the baby heal. IF any of this could be proved effective by reputable
research methods and studies, great! I doubt we will see it. I am also
concerned that by offering these courses for CE credit (other than
informational, as health care providers really do need to understand what is
out there and what patients are talking about), a (perhaps false) sense of
legitimacy is fostered.
--part1_4d.59dbdfa.27847b1e_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
(HTML)(FONT FACE=arial,helvetica)(FONT SIZE=3 FAMILY="DECORATIVE" FACE="Tempus Sans ITC" LANG="0")In a message dated 01/02/2001 6:27:27 PM Pacific Standard Time, (BR)canndw netzero.net writes:
(BR)
(BR)(/FONT)(FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0")
(BR)(BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px")I was recently surprised to find out that training in Reiki is an allowable
(BR)continuing education credit for registered nurses around here.
(BR)
(BR)David
(BR)
(BR)(/BLOCKQUOTE)
(BR)(/FONT)(FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="DECORATIVE" FACE="Tempus Sans ITC" LANG="0")
(BR)There are lots of alternative therapies that are offered to health care (BR)professionals for continuing education credits. I work with several Reiki (BR)practitioners. I also believe that some of the nurses quietly, and unknown (BR)to their patients, practice some "energy work" on them. I do know that a bit (BR)of this happened with the preemies (YEARS ago) when I would see certain folks (BR)standing over a bed with eyes closed, trying to feel how far a babies "energy (BR)field" projected and would see them trying to "smooth the ruffles" to help (BR)the baby heal. IF any of this could be proved effective by reputable (BR)research methods and studies, great! I doubt we will see it. I am also (BR)concerned that by offering these courses for CE credit (other than (BR)informational, as health care providers really do need to understand what is (BR)out there and what patients are talking about), a (perhaps false) sense of (BR)legitimacy is f!
ostered.
(BR)
(BR)(/FONT)(/HTML)
--part1_4d.59dbdfa.27847b1e_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 14:11:29 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Steffi in Finland
[Ray wrote:]
)The W teacher (K-PreK), who I consider to be a dogmatist upon )reflection,
)became frustrated when the children would not behave well )through the
)loooonnnngggggg draaaaawnn ouuuuuttttt just-so way of )doing everything (I
)was getting antsy). It struck me as very rigid and )I began to doubt if
)this teacher of many years knew anything about )children of this age
)(square peg in a round hole comes to mine).
and speckraybill followed up with a distressingly similar, and familiar,
example.
Here are some of my reminiscences about the horrors of meals and snacks in
Waldorf . . . this is a sort of composite, but it could describe any of the
three classes I worked in . . .
Waldorf teachers know how to make saying grace before a meal into a tense
and agonizing struggle. It could be quick - maybe join hands and repeat two
or three short lines.
But no, we have to wait for "golden silence," put our hands up and make a
"golden crown" with our palms joined around the table. Somebody is resisting
so we will all wait for that person to cooperate. (Sometimes we wait a long
time.) Meanwhile others, who were originally cooperating, are now giggling,
or nervous, or simply talking among themselves. We have severe looks, then
when that doesn't work, sharp reprimands, and then we start over, waiting
for golden silence again . . . Finally we repeat our little verse (well,
some of us do).
But we can't eat yet! Now there is a song. (Yes, a high-pitched song.)
Somebody starts making fun of the song (the kids have invented rude lyrics).
Now the teacher is angry. Some kids have started eating quietly, but they
don't get away with it. Now there is a little speech about being reverent at
meal times. We start the ritual over, but there is often some kind of
outburst at this point. Certain (older) children are routinely sent out of
the room at this point, or someone is sent into the corner to sit alone.
Younger ones start crying. We start over. Somebody says, "I have to go to
the bathroom." The teacher ignores this and icily repeats her cherished
verse by herself, through clenched teeth, having given up on her golden
crown. Finally, everybody has been punished enough and we can eat.
The elaborate food serving ritual described by speckraybill was also
familiar. One of our teachers had a similarly sadistic procedure. The
children often have to repeat pet phrases before they can get their food.
It might be funny if it weren't so sad. I'm not writing this to be a smart
aleck. I think it's very destructive. Imposed reverence doesn't work. Nobody
can even digest their lunch.
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 06:34:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Deborah Kelly (deborah_kelly yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Non-Christian Saints discussion on SJU
Has a working definition of "racism" ever been
broached on this list? El Haj Malik el Shabazz (known
to those who want to remember him as he was long, long
before he was killed as "Malcolm X") is considered to
be a racist only by a certain segment of the
population. This underlines the superficiality with
which Steiner's and his followers bigotry is being
treated. "Racism" has to do with a power
relationship, not with calling other people bad names.
DK
) Yes, but I thought we were talking about "lightness"
) and "darkness". As I
) recall, Malcom X eloquently brought to light the
) racist connotations of the
) words white and black. And I agree with him.
) Even he, in the end, lightened up as a racist.
)
) Ray
)
)
___________________________________________________________
) T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17
) Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite
) Topics
)
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 06:45:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Deborah Kelly (deborah_kelly yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Steiner essay on Lucifer, Ahriman and WW1
I know someone who was homeless and was told by the
local New Age/Waldorf folks that she needed a special
ritual to get rid of the negative place within her
that was drawing like a magnet, so much negativity.
The ritual could of course be purchased on a sliding
fee scale. This explains why none of them is
politically active in such areas as welfare reform.
They believe - and it is typical for those who come
from wealthy families as they do - that poor people
are poor by choice, ie. poor people get back what they
manifest.
DK
) In contemporary parlance, this is called "new age
) quilt". If you have a
) disease, for example, you "chose" it for some reason
) or has karmic relevance
) either from this life or the past one. It is rampant
) in new age
) psychology/medical therapy.
)
) Ray
)
)
___________________________________________________________
) T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17
) Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite
) Topics
)
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 09:45:14 -0500
From: Chris Brostrup-Jensen (C_Brostrup-Jensen brown.edu)
Subject: Authority in Waldorf (was Re: Steffi in Finland)
On Tue, 2 Jan 2001, Deborah Kelly (deborah_kelly yahoo.com) wrote:
[This bit was from someone else... Ray maybe?]
) )
) ) Not my logic, that's military logic; I don't think
) ) so, either.
) ) According to Steiner, from age 7 to 14 the child is
) ) supposed to live
) ) in reverence for authority.
[Deborah]
)What happens when the authority figure decides to have
)sex with the child. Is the child to obey because
)he/she is not ready to make certain decisions and is
)supposed to revere the authority figure. How does
)this differ from what, for example, happened (still
)happens) in the Catholic church between priests and
)the children over whom they have authority? Doesn't
)this sort of obedience to authority actually endanger
)children and therefore all of us? What is authority
)anyway. Isn't it simply the person with power over
)someone else?
I think this is an excellent question. I mean, it's a great
abstract question (What is authority anyway?) but it is
also a good question to ask about Waldorf and the "reverence"
aspect of classroom training. When Steiner says that kids
aged 7-14 seek authority figures, what does he mean by
authority? Is authority just power or does it imply some
kind of legitimacy? And does the legitimization of
authority in the Waldorf classroom come from the informed
consent of parent and child to the teacher's role and power,
or does it come in some more covert way from the teacher's
spiritual correctness and superiority? Does it flow from the
child's own, unconscious, karmic selection of the teacher to
be an authority? How (and if) authority in the classroom is
legitimized would help shed light on what Deborah is asking
about the risks children might be exposed to by obedience
to that authority.
Anyone want to take a crack at either quotes or experiences
that might shed light on that question?
Chris
Chris Brostrup-Jensen
Father of a 4-year-old at
Meadowbrook Waldorf School
Rhode Island, USA
C_Brostrup-Jensen Brown.edu
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 06:48:03 -0800 (PST)
From: iris springflower (irisspringflower yahoo.com)
Subject: alternative medicine
Hi. I just sent out a longer post on this subject, but
this pc I am on (a friend's) is having problems. So I
want to thank you, Lisa, David, and Dan, for reading
and answering my posts and for all your insightful
replies to my posts.
Best Wishes, Iris
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Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 09:52:51 -0500
From: Chris Brostrup-Jensen (C_Brostrup-Jensen brown.edu)
Subject: Role of imagination in Waldorf (was Re: The Most Famous...)
On Tue, 2 Jan 2001, Deborah Kelly (deborah_kelly yahoo.com) wrote:
[Someone (maybe Diana?) said]
) ) This is a perfect example of where it would be nice
) ) if Waldorf teachers
) ) explained their definition of "Imagination" to
) ) prospective parents. Parents
) ) are told Waldorf aims to help the child develop
) ) their imagination.
[Deborah replies]
)I do not understand why anyone would uncritically
)believe what is being told to them by those with a
)vested interest in getting their business, ie. tuition
)money.
[Chris]
True, we ought never to trust someone with a known
agenda who stands to gain from our acquiescence.
But the fact is that many of us do, on a regular basis.
It is a common human vulnerability. You seem to be
unusually alert against such a possibility, which is great.
But I have certainly fallen for quite a few lines in my
time, often berating myself that I should have known
better at a later date. I think that this fact of common
human vulnerability to the desire to believe others is why
the PLANS folks feel so strongly about the need for
disclosure at Waldorf schools, and I think they have a
very good point.
Chris
Chris Brostrup-Jensen
Father of a 4-year-old at
Meadowbrook Waldorf School
Rhode Island, USA
C_Brostrup-Jensen Brown.edu
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 09:58:52 -0500
From: Chris Brostrup-Jensen (C_Brostrup-Jensen brown.edu)
Subject: Re: Yuba River's Advent invitation
On Tue, 2 Jan 2001, Deborah Kelly (deborah_kelly yahoo.com) wrote:
(description of Advent Spiral ceremony snipped for brevity)
)[Deborah]
)And they are stating that this is not religious?
Yeah, tough to swallow. "me-too" is bad Netiquette, but
the old credulity meter really snapped on this one. I'm
fairly sure this is the kind of thing Eugene Schwartz was
talking about. It sounds like a perfectly lovely religious
ceremony. In the church I grew up in we had a candle
lighting children's procession on Christmas Eve that was
not really so terribly different from this. But it is most
certainly religious in character and clearly has no place
whatsoever in a publicly funded institution of any kind,
schools least of all.
Chris
Chris Brostrup-Jensen
Father of a 4-year-old at
Meadowbrook Waldorf School
Rhode Island, USA
C_Brostrup-Jensen Brown.edu
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3-Jan-2001 15:01:57 GMT
From: (irisspringflower yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Steiner essay on Lucifer, Ahriman and WW1
Deborah Kelly wrote:
) I know someone who was homeless and was told by the
) local New Age/Waldorf folks that she needed a special
) ritual to get rid of the negative place within her
) that was drawing like a magnet, so much negativity.
) The ritual could of course be purchased on a sliding
) fee scale. This explains why none of them is
) politically active in such areas as welfare reform.
) They believe - and it is typical for those who come
) from wealthy families as they do - that poor people
) are poor by choice, ie. poor people get back what they
) manifest.
I AGREE with you, Deborah! I have seen this happen also! Thanks for
posting this. Take Care & Best Wishes, Iris
)
) DK
)
) ) In contemporary parlance, this is called "new age
) ) quilt". If you have a
) ) disease, for example, you "chose" it for some reason
) ) or has karmic relevance
) ) either from this life or the past one. It is rampant
) ) in new age
) ) psychology/medical therapy.
) )
) ) Ray
) )
) )
) ___________________________________________________________
) ) T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17
) ) Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite
) ) Topics
) )
)
)
) __________________________________________________
) Do You Yahoo!?
) Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
) http://photos.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 10:09:39 -0500
From: Chris Brostrup-Jensen (C_Brostrup-Jensen brown.edu)
Subject: Re: The most famous thing that Eugene Schwartz never said
On Tue, 02 Jan 2001, "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com) wrote:
)[Chris wrote:]
)
) )Hopefully we do agree that "religious" and "mystery" schools are
) ) )different things?
)
)If we are talking about the dictionary definition of these terms, sure. If
)we are talking about Waldorf, the "religion" they are drawing from is
)esoteric Christianity, which has heavy doses of the "ancient mysteries"
)interwoven. That's what anthroposophy is, Chris.
Whatever the source of the religion of anthroposophy, I still believe
that clarity of communication requires making a distinction between
a religious school, where religious principles may guide and inform
what is taught, and a mystery school, where a select group of
consciously chosen believers go to be initiated into some particular
set of "mysteries" and practices sacred to the group. It is similar
to the difference between a parochial school and a seminary. And
I think that using words carefully and precisely is a huge boon to
communicating effectively.
I also think this particular equine has expired. ;-) I, at least, have
said all I can think of to say on the subject. I promise not to go
back there again. :-)
) )I'm sure that you have read this talk through considerably more than
) )twice.
)
)LOL! No, believe it or not, I think about things other than
)Waldorf/anthroposophy occasionally! I read Schwartz's speech when it was
)first put on the website, and I read it again a couple of weeks ago when
)this debate started about the "mystery school" question!
Argh! I hope I did not give the impression that I considered
you Waldorf-obsessed. If so, my apologies.
Chris
Chris Brostrup-Jensen
Father of a 4-year-old at
Meadowbrook Waldorf School
Rhode Island, USA
C_Brostrup-Jensen Brown.edu
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 10:14:38 -0500
From: Chris Brostrup-Jensen (C_Brostrup-Jensen brown.edu)
Subject: False reverence
On Tue, 2 Jan 2001, Speckraybill aol.com wrote:
)Moving on down to craft time, the teacher literally lost it when my 4 yr old
)son reached out and picked up the glue stick that she had set in front of
)him. Several of the adults present (me included) were appalled at the
)tongue-lashing my son received for this transgression. The explanation I
)received was that since she had not given the children permission or
)instructions to touch anything placed before them, his doing so was a show of
)irreverence. We never went back.
I'm sure you did not! I think that teacher should thank
her stars (or karma or whatever) that you are a patient
soul and refrained from pitching her out the door of her
own classroom. That would be disgraceful behavior
from any adult, and is inexcusable in a teacher.
Chris
Chris Brostrup-Jensen
Father of a 4-year-old at
Meadowbrook Waldorf School
Rhode Island, USA
C_Brostrup-Jensen Brown.edu
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 07:21:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Deborah Kelly (deborah_kelly yahoo.com)
Subject: "School as a Journey: The Eight-Year Odyssey of a Waldorf Teacher. . ."
Has anyone read this book by Torin Finser? I have
gotten through enough pages so far to have an
understanding of the controlling nature of WE, a.k.a.
learning reverence for authority figures, and the
unquestionably religious nature of WE.
p. 50: "The third-grade began with the story of the
Creation, as told in the Old Testament." Finser then
goes on with his quotes from the bible, which the
students were then supposed to watercolor
representations of.
p. 52: "In three separate blocks during our
third-grade year, we covered most of the Old
Testament. . .The images contained in these stories
are vivid, the action dramatic, and the tone often
authoritative. God creates, gives commandments, and
punishes those who disobey. . . Rudolf Steiner
described how the principle of imitation, which is
prevalent in the first two grades (and is demonstrated
by the ease with which the children learned language
in the Herr Finser story), gives way to a new element
that becomes necessary for eight- and nine-year-olds.
This new element is the need for authority. No longer
at one with the environment, the third-grader now
experiences the world 'outside' as being separate from
the Self."
"No longer at one with the environment" indicates to
me the same view that Christians for one hold, ie.
that humans are superior beings not connected to the
natural world of animals and plants. "Self" equals
"soul" here doesn't it?
p. 59: Finser describes his use of Indian peoples'
cultures as an educational tool. This fits in with
what the "Family Guide" states - pieces of other
cultures are to be used in order to rise above their
limitations. "My third-graders seemed to deeply
appreciate the Native American sense for beauty and
goodness. ." This is not only a romanticization of a
group of people, but it makes that group of people
into something ethereal and religious which is such
crap. I know no Indian person who would feel good
about this passage and most I know what be quite angry
about it.
Finser also writes about a "tooth inventory" which
made me very uncomfortable. Why is a teacher poking
in and around the mouths of other people? He
apparently neither sought nor was given permission to
do so.
Finser relates how he is the authority figure and that
when the children are around their parents they revert
to undisciplined behavior which upsets him. "It took
a few years for me to settle the 'who's in charge'
question and come to an inner orientation for the
in-between times. Simply put, I had to be the
authority figure. The parents did not seem to mind."
This guy is what we in our home call a "control
freak." He describes his unease at a picnic with the
parents and children when the children disappear into
the woods while playing as if the woods might gobble
up the children in its dark, gothic jaws.
This book is full of prayers and an emphasis on the
Old Testament mixed in with rituals. As I remember
the Old Testament it was quite bloody and war-like in
its stories and imagery. Why would it be such a
revered thing for WE?
DK
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Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 10:26:02 -0500
From: Chris Brostrup-Jensen (C_Brostrup-Jensen brown.edu)
Subject: Re: Collection of PLANS lies and deceptive quoting - update
On Tue, 02 Jan 2001, "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com) wrote:
(a fairly lengthy and detailed response to Jelle's attack on PLANS'
apparent acceptance of Jeurrissen's repeating of Moerland's poor
and possibly deceptive quoting of Steiner.)
Still with me? :-)
Gee, and I cut the text to try to keep things short and simple! ;-)
Anyway, thanks Diana for doing that work. In light of what I saw
in the Steiner lecture on Lucifer, Ahriman and WW1 I am much
more sympathetic to Diana's argument that Moerland had a more or
less accurate understanding of Steiner's perspective, no matter how
poor his quoting practice. The POV ascribed to Steiner by Moerland
is very consistent with what Steiner himself said openly in that lecture.
I still think that the way Steiner was quoted in the Moerland book is
unethical by any academic or literary standard and that Jelle was quite
right to point that out. I'm also glad to notice that the PLANS site
does say quite clearly that it provides a platform for anti-Waldorf
writers of all stripes, without taking any responsibility for the content of
what they write. Full disclosure is a good thing. ;-) If it were my
game to play I'd still yank things that I knew to be factually or
procedurally flawed, but that's a personal call.
Chris
Chris Brostrup-Jensen
Father of a 4-year-old at
Meadowbrook Waldorf School
Rhode Island, USA
C_Brostrup-Jensen Brown.edu
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 10:40:25 -0500
From: Chris Brostrup-Jensen (C_Brostrup-Jensen brown.edu)
Subject: RE: Waldorf "reverence" for Lucifer
On Tue, 2-Jan-2001, Neil Faiman (faiman jlc.net) wrote:
(a lengthy, carefully written and very helpful (to me) explanation
of his best understanding of the role/nature of "Ahriman" and
"Lucifer" in anthroposophical thought, snipped here in the interest
of bandwidth and on the assumption that everyone has already
seen it.)
Thanks, Neil. What you wrote jibes very well with what I got from
the Steiner lecture Sune shared with us and extends that understanding
a good bit further. Hopefully if Sune or anyone else feels that you have
got any of it wrong they will share their thoughts. In the meantime
I'll file your post away under useful references.
Chris
Chris Brostrup-Jensen
Father of a 4-year-old at
Meadowbrook Waldorf School
Rhode Island, USA
C_Brostrup-Jensen Brown.edu
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 10:55:33 -0500
From: Newpaul (dingman mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: "School as a Journey: The Eight-Year Odyssey of a Waldorf Teacher. .
."
Skip over to the 5th grade class. All of the real anthroposophic motive
and intent is there.
Newpaul
Deborah Kelly wrote:
)
) Has anyone read this book by Torin Finser? I have
) gotten through enough pages so far to have an
) understanding of the controlling nature of WE, a.k.a.
) learning reverence for authority figures, and the
) unquestionably religious nature of WE.
)
) p. 50: "The third-grade began with the story of the
) Creation, as told in the Old Testament." Finser then
) goes on with his quotes from the bible, which the
) students were then supposed to watercolor
) representations of.
) p. 52: "In three separate blocks during our
) third-grade year, we covered most of the Old
) Testament. . .The images contained in these stories
) are vivid, the action dramatic, and the tone often
) authoritative. God creates, gives commandments, and
) punishes those who disobey. . . Rudolf Steiner
) described how the principle of imitation, which is
) prevalent in the first two grades (and is demonstrated
) by the ease with which the children learned language
) in the Herr Finser story), gives way to a new element
) that becomes necessary for eight- and nine-year-olds.
) This new element is the need for authority. No longer
) at one with the environment, the third-grader now
) experiences the world 'outside' as being separate from
) the Self."
Steiner believed the old testament Jews experienced God and the spirit
world "outside" themselves. The teaching of the grades parallels the
Steiner's development of consciousness model which is used in teaching
history and culture. In fifth grade the experiences move "inside" with
emphasis on reincarnation, karma, lucifer and ahriman. It is all anthroposophy.
)
) "No longer at one with the environment" indicates to
) me the same view that Christians for one hold, ie.
) that humans are superior beings not connected to the
) natural world of animals and plants. "Self" equals
) "soul" here doesn't it?
)
) p. 59: Finser describes his use of Indian peoples'
) cultures as an educational tool. This fits in with
) what the "Family Guide" states - pieces of other
) cultures are to be used in order to rise above their
) limitations. "My third-graders seemed to deeply
) appreciate the Native American sense for beauty and
) goodness. ." This is not only a romanticization of a
) group of people, but it makes that group of people
) into something ethereal and religious which is such
) crap. I know no Indian person who would feel good
) about this passage and most I know what be quite angry
) about it.
)
) Finser also writes about a "tooth inventory" which
) made me very uncomfortable. Why is a teacher poking
) in and around the mouths of other people? He
) apparently neither sought nor was given permission to
) do so.
)
) Finser relates how he is the authority figure and that
) when the children are around their parents they revert
) to undisciplined behavior which upsets him. "It took
) a few years for me to settle the 'who's in charge'
) question and come to an inner orientation for the
) in-between times. Simply put, I had to be the
) authority figure. The parents did not seem to mind."
) This guy is what we in our home call a "control
) freak." He describes his unease at a picnic with the
) parents and children when the children disappear into
) the woods while playing as if the woods might gobble
) up the children in its dark, gothic jaws.
)
) This book is full of prayers and an emphasis on the
) Old Testament mixed in with rituals. As I remember
) the Old Testament it was quite bloody and war-like in
) its stories and imagery. Why would it be such a
) revered thing for WE?
Once again, they are not teaching the old testament as a religious
experience, but as a model that fits the conscious development of the
child. As you progress up the grades it all leads to anthroposophy. On
a personal note, the old testament teachings were the only thing I have
not found too disagreeable. But unless one has the Holy Spirit he has
no means to understand or interpret what is written. This children get a
view of the old testament not as the word of God, but as a fairy tale.
It carries no more significance than the norse myths they will study in
4th grade. In my view this is just as detrimental as having no
spiritual education at all.
Newpaul
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 15:54:52 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Yuba River's Advent invitation
[Chris - Advent spiral:]
)I'm fairly sure this is the kind of thing Eugene Schwartz was
)talking about. It sounds like a perfectly lovely religious
)ceremony. In the church I grew up in we had a candle
)lighting children's procession on Christmas Eve that was
)not really so terribly different from this. But it is most
)certainly religious in character and clearly has no place
)whatsoever in a publicly funded institution of any kind,
)schools least of all.
It *is* a perfectly lovely religious ceremony. That's exactly precisely what
it is. (This is another "me too" post I guess.)
In our Waldorf school, the faculty went through contortions to convince
themselves and the parents this ceremony was "nonsectarian." (I mean, it was
a bitter disagreement among some people, tears and strife at faculty
meetings). I think the term they settled on was "Garden of Light," and baby
Jesus became the "Child of Light," or something like that.
But this was a private Waldorf school, and they had no reason to deny it was
religious! Figuring out how to make it "nonsectarian" is hard enough, but
trying to claim it is not religious is ridiculous.
Diana
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 10:57:36 -0500
From: Chris Brostrup-Jensen (C_Brostrup-Jensen brown.edu)
Subject: Re: Steiner essay on Lucifer, Ahriman and WW1
On Tue, 02 Jan 2001, Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se) wrote:
)Chris Brostrup-Jensen wrote:
)
)Me:
) ) )As for Steiner's view, maybe a lecture at
) ) )http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/ChrLuc_index.html can clarify how he
) ) )viewed some aspects of your questions.
)...
)
)Chris:
) ) The essay [...] bored me because, like so much of the (yes, still very
) ) limited) Steiner reading I have done, it is needlessly verbose, pompous,
) ) self-important and extremely self-justifying.
)...
) ) This essay is not really ...
)...
) ) this essay is primarily ...
)...
) ) this essay sheds only a small amount of light
)...
) ) [Rudolf Steiner writes]
)...
[Sune]
)If one looks at the URL (above) and reads the subtitle and the
)description of where and when the lecture was held, it says that what
)you refer to as 'essay' is a lecture, transcribed and printed. The words
)are spoken words to local members of the Anthroposophical Society (not
)explained at the page) in the vicinity if Linz in Austria, not written
)words, as the very greatest part (in the order of 90%) of what can be
)read of Steiner today. It was one of the at least 9 lectures he held in
)May 1915, one every third day in principle.
[Chris]
Sune, you are absolutely right and I apologize. I saw the subtitle and
knew it was a lecture, but wrote "essay" anyway, basically because
I was looking at printed words and didn't think much past that. But
you're quite right, this was spoken, not written, which probably did
affect the presentation some. I don't see that it could have had much
effect on the basic subject matter, though.
[Sune]
)The building of Goetheanum in Dornach was the central project of the
)Anthroposophical Society at the time. The lecture was an internal
)lecture for the members of the society (not a public, published essay)
)in which he tried to explain to them what the new project and the
)sculpture he spent much time working at was about.
[Chris]
Well, I must disagree with you about the intent of the lecture. In
some 16 pages or so of text, the Goetheanum gets only a handful
of passing references, with this revolting little story about the child's
sacrifice being the major one. The vast bulk of the lecture is devoted
to a "correct" understanding of the situation with respect to the World
War.
And secondarily I'd agree that he was talking about his statue that
was going into the front hall (or some such place) of the Goetheanum
when it was done. He did seem keen to have everyone understand
the importance of the piece and its connection to the War.
[Sune]
)Being about one year of four into the first World War, he put the work
)into context of the what was developing as the war. But it was primarily
)an internal lecture for some members of the Anthroposophical Society in
)Austria telling them about the work in Dornach, Switzerland, putting it
)into the context of contemporary happenings.
[Chris]
Nope, it was about those contemporary happenings themselves.
Read it through again. I think you'll see I'm right.
And I'm a little troubled by your feeling that the fact that the lecture
was an "internal" one meant for members of the Society has some
relevance to understanding it. Either he meant the things he said or
he did not. My feeling is that he did; it would be a bit odd to go on at
such great length on such a timely and important subject in front of
an audience of friends and fellow-thinkers otherwise, no?
Chris
Chris Brostrup-Jensen
Father of a 4-year-old at
Meadowbrook Waldorf School
Rhode Island, USA
C_Brostrup-Jensen Brown.edu
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 16:00:16 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: The most famous thing that Eugene Schwartz never said
[Chris wrote:]
)Whatever the source of the religion of anthroposophy, I still believe that
)clarity of communication requires making a distinction )between a religious
)school, where religious principles may guide and )inform what is taught,
)and a mystery school, where a select group of
)consciously chosen believers go to be initiated into some particular
)set of "mysteries" and practices sacred to the group. It is similar
)to the difference between a parochial school and a seminary. And
)I think that using words carefully and precisely is a huge boon to
)communicating effectively.
Yes, I do agree, Chris. I do think that, despite the technical distinctions
here, these distinctions are blurry in practice - in reality in Waldorf
schools, and are interpreted differently in different Waldorf teachers'
minds.
)I also think this particular equine has expired. ;
Agree. Dead! Dead! Dead!! :)
)Argh! I hope I did not give the impression that I considered
)you Waldorf-obsessed. If so, my apologies.
No, I'm Waldorf-obsessed. Guilty.
Diana
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 16:07:32 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: False reverence
[Speckraybill aol.com wrote:]
)the teacher literally lost it when my 4 yr old son reached out and )picked
)up the glue stick that she had set in front of him. Several of )the adults
)present (me included) were appalled at the tongue-lashing )my son received
)for this transgression. The explanation I received )was that since she had
)not given the children permission or )instructions to touch anything placed
)before them, his doing so was a )show of irreverence. We never went back.
[Chris:]
)I'm sure you did not! I think that teacher should thank
)her stars (or karma or whatever) that you are a patient
)soul and refrained from pitching her out the door of her
)own classroom. That would be disgraceful behavior
)from any adult, and is inexcusable in a teacher.
I saw this sort of thing many times. What happens is, everything must be
done ritualistically. They mean well - they really think the ritualized,
"reverent" way of doing things will make it more meaningful to the children,
make it memorable, make them value it more. But the teacher loses it when
the children don't have the patience or self-control to do it properly. In
another place and time, children may have been used to doing things this way
- there would be a coherence between school and home. At least in the US,
children are rarely raised this way now. The very cooperative children get
with the program, and certainly some enjoy the rituals. But a lot of them
can't handle it, and a few deliberately flout it, and get scapegoated as
continual troublemakers.
Diana
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 11:21:07 -0500
From: Chris Brostrup-Jensen (C_Brostrup-Jensen brown.edu)
Subject: Re: on an 'unenlightened' comment
On Wed, 03 Jan 2001, Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se) wrote:
) ) [Chris]
) )
) ) )( Snip little side trip into how unenlightened folks get confused about
) ) )causes and effects.)
)
)The side trip is not a discussion of 'unenlightened folks' in any
)general sense. It discusses how easy it is to form unfounded judgements
)based on too little knowledge (like you, Debra, in the posting this is
)an answer to ...), exemplifying with how very easy it can be to be
)mistaken when trying to judge the reason for people's death, as that is
)one of basic themes of the lecture, with all the young soldiers dying in
)the fields at the time, discussing what some aspects of what happens
)when people die, and a difference between Russians and Frenchmen in this
)context.
You're right again, Sune. I got a little snide there because I was
feeling irritated by RS. I apologize.
)Steiner:
)'causes are mistaken for effects, and vice versa. I have frequently used
)the following example. A person falls into the river and people hurry to
)the spot where it happened. When they find a rock, they conjecture that
)the victim had stumbled over it and this caused him to fall into the
)river and drown. Thus, they are sure that the man had died because he
)fell into the river.
)
)If one were to conduct an autopsy, however, it might turn out that he
)had suffered a heart attack and as a result, was already dead when he
)fell into the water, but he fell into the water because he had died. You
)will frequently encounter a similar confusion of cause and effect when
)life situations are assessed, and even more frequently in the general
)sciences.'
)
)The comment has nothing to do as such with the 'enlightedness' or
)'unenlightenedness' _as such_ in general of _people_, as personal
)qualities. The side trip concerns 'unenlightenedness' in relation to
)actual knowledge of facts and of the relations between causes and
)effects and what is the reason or cause of what in life.
Quite right. But it also has little or nothing to do with the section on
what happens to French and Russian soldiers when they die, a
discussion which is three pages prior to this quote. This section is
meant to point out that the naive spectator will be mistaken if she
believes that little Theodor's death is a senseless accident. Rather
it is his karma working itself out in such a way as to strengthen the
aura of Steiner's Goetheanum.
BTW, for those who are interested about what happens to the
French and Russian soldier after they die, we have the following:
[Steiner, p 9 of "Christ in Relation to Lucifer and Ahriman"]
)In this connection the various nationalities differ considerably from one=
=20
)another. Let us, for instance, compare a Frenchman with a Russian. It is a=
=20
)Frenchman's particular trait that he is especially persistent in holding=20
)onto, and dwelling in, what the collective soul of his people carries into=
=20
)his physical body and ether body during his life between birth and death.=
=20
)This can he seen in his definitive idea =97 not as an individual but as a=
=20
)Frenchman =97 of what it is to be French. Above all, he stresses the=20
)importance of being French and what that means to him. But this notion=20
)held by Frenchmen or by anyone else from a Romance culture about their=20
)nationality affects the ether body by clearly imprinting the idea of=20
)nationality on it. A few days after the Frenchman has passed through the=20
)Rate of death he loses his ether body; it is then a closed entity that has=
=20
)a prolonged existence in the etheric world. The ether body is unable to=20
)dissolve for a long time because it is impregnated with, and held together=
=20
)by, the Frenchman's idea of nationality. Thus, if we look to the West we=20
)see the held of death filled with firmly defined ether bodies.
)Now, if we take a closer look to the East, at Russian man, we recognize=20
)his peculiar trait; his soul, upon passing through the gate of death,=20
)carries an ether body that dissolves in a relatively short period of time.=
=20
)That is the difference between the West and the East. When the ether=20
)bodies of Western Europeans are separated after death, they tend to=20
)maintain a certain rigidity. What the Frenchman calls =93Gloire=94 is=20
)impregnated in his ether body as a national Gloire. He is condemned for a=
=20
)long time after his death to turn his spiritual sight onto this ether=20
)body, and to look at himself (The Russian, however, looks little at=20
)himself after his death.) Through all this, Western European man is=20
)exposed to the ahrimanic influence because his ether body has been=20
)infected by materialistic thinking
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 11:22:07 EST
From: Speckraybill aol.com
Subject: Re: Yuba River's Advent invitation
--part1_f7.63cf01e.2784abaf_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 01/03/2001 8:07:57 AM Pacific Standard Time,
winters_diana hotmail.com writes:
) I think the term they settled on was "Garden of Light," and baby
) Jesus became the "Child of Light," or something like that.
)
We had the "Child of Light" concept enforced here. We were also instructed
to change the wording of "Joy to the World" to sing "the LIGHT has come".
On a different topic, our 5 year old Kindergartener frequently instructed us
that "Someday, we will go back across the Rainbow Bridge. Mommy and Daddy,
you will go before I do unless I have to go first. We hang around and when
it is time, we come back down and are a baby again. I hope you get to be my
mommy and daddy again, but maybe I will get to be your daddy first." What do
you all think?
--part1_f7.63cf01e.2784abaf_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
(HTML)(FONT FACE=arial,helvetica)(FONT SIZE=3 FAMILY="DECORATIVE" FACE="Tempus Sans ITC" LANG="0")In a message dated 01/03/2001 8:07:57 AM Pacific Standard Time, (BR)winters_diana hotmail.com writes:
(BR)
(BR)(/FONT)(FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0")
(BR)(BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px")I think the term they settled on was "Garden of Light," and baby
(BR)Jesus became the "Child of Light," or something like that.
(BR)(/BLOCKQUOTE)
(BR)(/FONT)(FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="DECORATIVE" FACE="Tempus Sans ITC" LANG="0")
(BR)We had the "Child of Light" concept enforced here. We were also instructed (BR)to change the wording of "Joy to the World" to sing "the LIGHT has come".
(BR)
(BR)On a different topic, our 5 year old Kindergartener frequently instructed us (BR)that "Someday, we will go back across the Rainbow Bridge. Mommy and Daddy, (BR)you will go before I do unless I have to go first. We hang around and when (BR)it is time, we come back down and are a baby again. I hope you get to be my (BR)mommy and daddy again, but maybe I will get to be your daddy first." What do (BR)you all think?
(BR)
(BR)(/FONT)(/HTML)
--part1_f7.63cf01e.2784abaf_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 11:25:24 -0500
From: Chris Brostrup-Jensen (C_Brostrup-Jensen brown.edu)
Subject: New Age "quilt"?
On Tue, 2 Jan 2001, Rechomba cs.com wrote:
)Chris quoting Steiner's lecture:
)
)RS:
) ) The situation with little Theodor was that his karma had expired, so
) that=20
) ) it is actually
) ) possible to say, =E2=80=9CHe himself ordered the van to the place of
) the=20
)accident.=E2=80=9D=20
) ) =20
[Ray]
)In contemporary parlance, this is called "new age quilt". If you have a=20
)disease, for example, you "chose" it for some reason or has karmic relevance=
)=20
)either from this life or the past one. It is rampant in new age=20
)psychology/medical therapy.
)
Gotta ask, Ray. Why "quilt"? Do you have any idea how that
terminology came about? I've never heard it before. It's an
oddly homey name for a repulsive little concept, IMHO.
Chris
Chris Brostrup-Jensen
Father of a 4-year-old at
Meadowbrook Waldorf School
Rhode Island, USA
C_Brostrup-Jensen Brown.edu
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 16:37:42 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: New Age "quilt"?
[Ray:]
)"new age quilt". If youhave a disease, for example, you "chose" it for
) )some reason or has karmic relevance either from this life or the past
) )one. It is rampant in new age psychology/medical therapy.
)Gotta ask, Ray. Why "quilt"? Do you have any idea how that
)terminology came about? I've never heard it before. It's an
)oddly homey name for a repulsive little concept, IMHO.
I thought it was a typo - "new age guilt."
Diana
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 18:07:01 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Authority in Waldorf (was Re: Steffi in Finland)
[Chris]
)When Steiner says that kids aged 7-14 seek authority figures, what )does he
)mean by authority? Is authority just power or does it imply )some kind of
)legitimacy?
To try to give Steiner the benefit of the doubt, I don't think he meant
authority in a power-oriented way. I doubt he meant it would be okay for
adults to have sex with children. While I'm not claiming to represent
Steiner accurately here, I think children do want to look up to adults, want
to believe what adults tell them, want to believe that adults know how
things work and that adults can be counted on to know what they're doing.
But although children do want this to some extent, to feel secure, they are
also naturally growing out of this all along. (Not just after puberty.)
Maybe the problem comes partly in people trying to do it artificially. In my
observation Waldorf teachers are often trying to do this "authority" thing
by tone of voice, by a manner of speaking and carrying themselves, a very
stagy manner, by refusing to answer questions, and by insisting that their
little rituals be done a certain way, and they end up just coming across as
ridiculous.
The kids' BS sensors, as Ray put it, tell them promptly that this person is
not for real.
And the other obvious problem is, of course, that it is very easy to get on
a power trip when you think you are "supposed to" have authority -
especially a karmically or spiritually based authority - over a bunch of
little people, and to abuse that power, especially when the kids push your
buttons. Waldorf teachers naturally expect that what they've been taught in
training is going to work, and when it doesn't, then you have an angry
person who believes they have a karmic right to be in charge here, and you
have the potential for abuse.
)Does it flow from the child's own, unconscious, karmic selection of )the
)teacher to be an authority?
I think the answer to this would be yes. The child has chosen the teacher.
Perhaps the authority of one over the other is justified anthroposophically
because in another lifetime, the child may be the teacher, and vice versa?
Just a guess.
Diana
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 18:14:55 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: on an 'unenlightened' comment
[chris]
)BTW, for those who are interested about what happens to the
)French and Russian soldier after they die, we have the following: Steiner
)quote]
That was really bizarre, thanks Chris.
Diana
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 18:17:03 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Yuba River's Advent invitation
[speckraybill wrote:]
)On a different topic, our 5 year old Kindergartener frequently )instructed
)us that "Someday, we will go back across the Rainbow )Bridge. Mommy and
)Daddy, you will go before I do unless I have to go )first. We hang around
)and when it is time, we come back down and are )a baby again. I hope you
)get to be my mommy and daddy again, but )maybe I will get to be your daddy
)first." What do you all think?
I think your child understood the point of the Rainbow Bridge story
perfectly. But of course, anthroposophy isn't taught in Waldorf schools.
(sarcasm)
Diana
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 11:13:54 -0800
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: Yuba River's Advent invitation
)On Tue, 2 Jan 2001, Deborah Kelly (deborah_kelly yahoo.com) wrote:
)
)(description of Advent Spiral ceremony snipped for brevity)
)
))[Deborah]
))And they are stating that this is not religious?
[Debra]
I don't _know_ what they are saying. I tend to think they are just thumbing
their noses up at everyone. They are the do-it-anyway school. I certainly
believe that the school board has no clue that they would do anything like
this.
Interestingly, the school administrator sent out an accounting of the
status of our lawsuit against the school in the same newsletter.
The Waldorf folks are hanging their big hat on the argument that "the judge
did rule that the public school programs using Waldorf methods have a
secular (non religious) purpose."
Well, that little sentence was turned around to read just the way they want
the parents to read it, with little regard for the facts. Both the judge
(AND PLANS) agrees that the *school districts* have a secular purpose. We
don't think the school board members are Anthroposophists who are trying to
save the world by establishing public Waldorf schools. PLANS asserts that
the *school districts* have been duped by the Waldorf folks into believing
that Waldorf schools are nonsectarian.
PLANS says Waldorf schools are still illegal in the public sector, never
mind the intention of the districts. There is a huge difference between
what the letter said and what the judge said. (Smoke screen alert).
)
)Yeah, tough to swallow. "me-too" is bad Netiquette, but
)the old credulity meter really snapped on this one. I'm
)fairly sure this is the kind of thing Eugene Schwartz was
)talking about. It sounds like a perfectly lovely religious
)ceremony. In the church I grew up in we had a candle
)lighting children's procession on Christmas Eve that was
)not really so terribly different from this. But it is most
)certainly religious in character and clearly has no place
)whatsoever in a publicly funded institution of any kind,
)schools least of all.
)
)Chris
)
)Chris Brostrup-Jensen
)Father of a 4-year-old at
)Meadowbrook Waldorf School
)Rhode Island, USA
)C_Brostrup-Jensen Brown.edu
)
)___________________________________________________________
)T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17
)Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 11:52:32 -0800
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Yuba River's parent Update on trial
Well, now that I mentioned it, I guess I should get a copy into the
archives. (Wish Santa had brought me a scanner.) I have taken out the names
and phone numbers because I don't think the school needs to pay for
outsiders to speak to their attorney or other staff members. (If you have a
burning desire to do so, please contact the school to ask them for the
phone numbers.)
-ds
December 2000
Dear Families and Friends of Yuba River Charter School:
Many of you have expressed interest in the status of the lawsuit against
Twin Ridges School District and Yuba River Charter School. Some of your
questions were generated as a result of a recent article in the San
Francisco Chronicle. I hope the following accounting helps to put the issue
into prospective.
In 1998, People for Legal and Nonsectarian Schools (PLANS - an organization
of a few dozen people) filed a lawsuit against Sacramento City Unified
School District and Twin Ridges Elementary School District claiming that
the districts teach religion in their Waldorf Methods schools. SCUSD has a
magnet school and TRESD has five current sights using Waldorf methods with
another due to open in the fall of 2001. Both districts strongly support
their programs and contend that Waldorf methodology is not a religion but
an instructional method that integrates literature, cultural history, the
arts and an appreciation of the natural sciences into a child's development
and education.
Furthermore, the districts, their attorneys and extensive expert opinion
around the country assert that all the schools provide a public educational
program that is consistant with the intent and purpose of the charter
school legislation and regulations governing magnet schools - to provide
innovative and effective instructional methods in a public school.
In May, 1999, SCUSD and TRESD filed a motion for summary judgement, which
would have dismissed the case without a trial on the issues brought forward
by PLANS. We believed that money to educate children should go to that end
and not be wasted on litigation. The judge denied the motion for summary
judgement in September 1999 because he believed the case could not be
decided without a hearing to resolve important facts that were in dispute.
However, the judge did rule that the public school programs using Waldorf
methods have a secular (non-religious) purpose. The case is expected to be
heard in March 2001.
Both school districts do not consider Waldorf instructional methods to be
based on any religious creed. The schools do not teach Anthroposophy or any
of the personal philosophical beliefs of Rudolf Steiner.
Questions about the status of the lawsuit or to find out how you can help
defend the right to bring Waldorf methods to public school children may be
referred to XXXXXX, the attorney representing the two districts (XXX)
xxx-xxxx or xxxxx, at (xxx) xxx-xxxx.
Thank you for the support of our educational community and for your
energetic involvement.
Sincerely,
Mic McPherson, Adminitrator
Yuba River Charter School
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 14:58:09 -0500
From: Chris Brostrup-Jensen (C_Brostrup-Jensen brown.edu)
Subject: Re: karma link
On Wed, 03 Jan 2001, Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se) wrote:
[on the subject of karma]
)For anyone interested in a more full understanding of how Steiner viewed
)it, a lecture series from 1910 can be found at
)http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/ManfKarma/ManKar_index.html found at
)http://www.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/index.php3
Thanks again, Sune, for the reference. I went to check this out and found it
to be a series of 11 lectures, a bit too much material for me to try to
digest in
the limited time I have available to me. I noticed, however, that while
the other
10 lectures seemed to cover very specific topics, the first sounded very broad
and general, being called "The Nature and Significance of Karma in the Personal
and Individual; And in Humanity, the Earth and the Universe." So I printed
that
one and gave it a read.
I confess to having nodded off once in the middle, but that may be the fault
of inadequate sleep last night. ;-) I persevered and was rewarded with a
slightly better notion of what RS meant by karma than I had before. The
discussions of the subject on this list appear to be fairly firmly rooted in
Steiner's own ideas; there were not many surprises in the lecture. I did learn
the difference between the Personal and the Individual in anthroposophy.
The Personal refers to anything associated with one's current life (i.e. the
period between one's most recent birth and one's next death). The Individual
refers to the more long-term self, what a modern person might call a
"meta-self",
the part of a person which persists across birth-to-death lifetimes and is
conscious
and active (for most people) only in the time between death and the next birth.
No, that's not right. The Individual may only be *conscious* during that time,
but it is *active* all the time; that is actually an important distinction
when it
comes to karma. That's because it is the Individual which makes decisions
during the death-to-birth period which will affect the Personal self greatly
during the upcoming birth-to-death lifetime; this is a very important karmic
mechanism.
Most of Steiner's notions about karma seem very "mainstream" and cliche.
But this idea of consciously chosen karma is a bit different and, to my mind,
invidious. Rather than being handed out as the relatively impersonal balancing
judgements of a great karmic wheel, the hard knocks of this Personal life are
conceived by Steiner as being the conscious choices of the Individual self as
it seeks to make up for the mistakes and ill actions of the previous Personal
life in order to work toward perfection. It's pretty easy to go from there to
blaming the victim, which is the kind of behavior folks on the list have
complained
of seeing in Waldorf schools. Like little Theodor in Dornach, whatever bad
things happen to us, no matter how cruel or senseless they may seem, stem
from the conscious choices of the Individual self and are self-inflicted wounds
meant to speed us on the path to redemptive perfection. That can excuse an
awful lot of bad things.
I was also struck anew in this lecture by the tough demands Steiner makes
of his followers. On the one hand, he uses the language of science, in a
sense,
talking of proof and certainty and knowledge. He really seems to see his
religion as a spiritual science. Yet he offers no substance to fit that
language.
When I see someone assert proof and certainty and scientific knowledge, I
expect some evidence to back it up. Steiner offers none. He simply asserts
that things are so. Now, certainly, this is a normal behavior for religious
prophets; they demand faith from their followers, the willing and conscious
suspension of disbelief. But they ask (or demand) that faith
directly. Steiner
does not. Nowhere does he seem to come out and say "You just have to
trust me on this, you have to have faith." To me it seems that Steiner talks
science, but walks religion. He invites the faithful to a clambake, then feeds
them barbecue. Maybe I haven't read enough yet to find the missing pieces,
but this combination really struck me as discordant in the karma lecture.
Anybody else read this lecture (or any of the others) and want to share some
thoughts or insights?
BTW, Sune, I do appreciate your live-and-let-live approach to what I
(or others) conclude or believe. I think that's a very healthy thing. But
I do invite you to keep hopping in to correct or clarify things if you think
I (or others) have misunderstood or misrepresented something in Steiner.
In fact, I rely on it. I know the critics will do the same! ;-)
Chris
Chris Brostrup-Jensen
Father of a 4-year-old at
Meadowbrook Waldorf School
Rhode Island, USA
C_Brostrup-Jensen Brown.edu
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 15:34:34 EST
From: Speckraybill aol.com
Subject: (no subject)
--part1_5a.f3e71b5.2784e6da_boundary
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Some observations:
Once the karmic pecking order has been established (I have seen this
happen, and it was explained to me that it is normal for "karmic leaders" to
emerge) has anyone noticed that the teacher seems to accept this and
treat the children according to their position in the order? I
noticed that the teacher (I have seen this phenomenon in two
different schools with two different teaching staffs) would treat the
karmic bully (I know--leader, but the only thing some of these
children are going to be the leader of is their cell block, if they
don't straighten out) in a very positive, affirming way. The
victims, or those way down on the order were treated in a negative,
almost dismissive way. One teacher stated that she began to not like
one of the victims, interestingly enough, once the child began to be bullied
by classmates. Many actions by the bullies are ignored, even when
the teacher is present. I saw one bully begin kicking a girl (victim
role designee) in the stomach and head. I was fenced in on the far
side of the table, working on the Gnome Replenishment Project
(sudden Gnome deficit) so couldn't move quickly. Both the teacher
and the assistant had to walk around the two children on their way to
the kitchen. Neither of them seemed to notice or care. I finally
climbed across the table (taking down the tree branch with all its
hanging ornaments as I went) and separated the two in an admittedly
direct, non-Waldorf manner.
In other situations, again observed in different settings, I have
seen the victim designee finally respond to the bullying, usually by
doing something similar to what the bully has been doing to them,
such as throwing things, hitting, kicking, whatever. One day a girl
who had sticks, stones, sand thrown at her repeatedly by the bully
with the teacher right there, finally got angry and picked up
something the bully had just thrown and threw it back at him. The
teacher immediately responded by punishing the girl. Nothing
happened to the bully. It is almost as though the teachers are
trying to reinforce these roles.
Any insights?
Haven't finished my karma reading assignment yet, but working on it.
Paula (the enigmatic speckraybill no longer)
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(HTML)(FONT FACE=arial,helvetica)(FONT SIZE=3 FAMILY="DECORATIVE" FACE="Tempus Sans ITC" LANG="0")Some observations:
(BR)
(BR)Once the karmic pecking order has been established (I have seen this
(BR)happen, and it was explained to me that it is normal for "karmic leaders" to (BR)emerge) has anyone noticed that the teacher seems to accept this and
(BR)treat the children according to their position in the order? I
(BR)noticed that the teacher (I have seen this phenomenon in two
(BR)different schools with two different teaching staffs) would treat the
(BR)karmic bully (I know--leader, but the only thing some of these
(BR)children are going to be the leader of is their cell block, if they
(BR)don't straighten out) in a very positive, affirming way. The
(BR)victims, or those way down on the order were treated in a negative,
(BR)almost dismissive way. One teacher stated that she began to not like
(BR)one of the victims, interestingly enough, once the child began to be bullied (BR)by classmates. Many actions by the bullies are ignored, even when
(BR)the teacher is present. I saw one bully begin kicking a girl (victim
(BR)role designee) in the stomach and head. I was fenced in on the far
(BR)side of the table, working on the Gnome Replenishment Project
(BR)(sudden Gnome deficit) so couldn't move quickly. Both the teacher
(BR)and the assistant had to walk around the two children on their way to
(BR)the kitchen. Neither of them seemed to notice or care. I finally
(BR)climbed across the table (taking down the tree branch with all its
(BR)hanging ornaments as I went) and separated the two in an admittedly
(BR)direct, non-Waldorf manner.
(BR)
(BR)In other situations, again observed in different settings, I have
(BR)seen the victim designee finally respond to the bullying, usually by
(BR)doing something similar to what the bully has been doing to them,
(BR)such as throwing things, hitting, kicking, whatever. One day a girl
(BR)who had sticks, stones, sand thrown at her repeatedly by the bully
(BR)with the teacher right there, finally got angry and picked up
(BR)something the bully had just thrown and threw it back at him. The
(BR)teacher immediately responded by punishing the girl. Nothing
(BR)happened to the bully. It is almost as though the teachers are
(BR)trying to reinforce these roles.
(BR)
(BR)Any insights?
(BR)
(BR)Haven't finished my karma reading assignment yet, but working on it.
(BR)
(BR)
(BR)Paula (the enigmatic speckraybill no longer)
(BR)
(BR)
(BR)
(BR)
(BR)
(BR)
(BR)(/FONT)(/HTML)
--part1_5a.f3e71b5.2784e6da_boundary--
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 114
-- Topica Digest -- issue 114
Re: karma link
By snell netshel.net
Re: Authority in Waldorf (was Re: Steffi in Finland)
By deborah_kelly yahoo.com
Re: New Age "quilt"?
By Rechomba cs.com
Re: on an 'unenlightened' comment
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
Re: Collection of PLANS lies and deceptive quoting - update
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
Re: on an 'unenlightened' comment
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Thanks Paula (Re: victims/bullies)
By irisspringflower yahoo.com
Re: on an 'unenlightened' comment
By snell netshel.net
Re: on an 'unenlightened' comment
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
Re: on an 'unenlightened' comment
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: Collection of PLANS lies and deceptive quoting - update
By winters_diana hotmail.com
somewhere, over the rainbow, er, bridge
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: creeping New Ageism in medicine, healthcare
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
By snell netshel.net
Re: Steffi in Finland
By Rechomba cs.com
Re: Yuba River's Advent invitation
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Collection of PLANS lies and deceptive quoting - update
By dan dandugan.com
Re: "School as a Journey: The Eight-Year Odyssey of a Waldorf
Teacher. . ."
By dan dandugan.com
Re: "School as a Journey: The Eight-Year Odyssey of a Waldorf
Teacher. . ."
By Christopher yav.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 12:48:13 -0800
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: karma link
Chris on Steiner's lecture:
)Most of Steiner's notions about karma seem very "mainstream" and cliche.
)But this idea of consciously chosen karma is a bit different and, to my mind,
)invidious. Rather than being handed out as the relatively impersonal
)balancing
)judgements of a great karmic wheel, the hard knocks of this Personal life are
)conceived by Steiner as being the conscious choices of the Individual self as
)it seeks to make up for the mistakes and ill actions of the previous Personal
)life in order to work toward perfection. It's pretty easy to go from there to
)blaming the victim, which is the kind of behavior folks on the list have
)complained
)of seeing in Waldorf schools. Like little Theodor in Dornach, whatever bad
)things happen to us, no matter how cruel or senseless they may seem, stem
)from the conscious choices of the Individual self and are self-inflicted
)wounds
)meant to speed us on the path to redemptive perfection. That can excuse an
)awful lot of bad things.
[Debra]
I agree this is a problem, even in private Waldorf schools, but imagine
taking this belief into the public sector, Chris.
Thinking of the stringent special education laws that all public US schools
must adhere to, all it takes is one parent of a special ed student to hear
and fall for Waldorf's window dressings and place her special needs child
in a public Waldorf school. Since they are a public school, they can not
turn this student away.
The parent, used to her rights, asks for an IEP (Individual Education
Program) meeting to address her child's special needs and concerns. (It
seems that her child is being bullied on the playground and she is worried
about his depression and slipping interest in school.)
The Waldorf trained teachers and administrators refuse to interviene
because it is against their belief system. The parent, used to working with
public school teachers and administrators can't believe her ears! After
all, she has no clue this is a religious school. She persists in asking for
a meeting. The Waldorf trained Anthroposophists can't tell her the truth,
so they just get mad and call the mother names and refuse to take her
calls. When she shows up at the school and asks for a meeting (again!), the
administrator says, "You need to mind your own business, get on with your
life, and let us deal with your child!" When the Mother takes offense, the
Anthro Adminstrator screams, while standing two inches away from the
parent's face, "Don't you know how strange your child looks? Why don't you
just take him and leave?!!!"
The parent, totally blown away, eventually takes her child out of the
school after the charter council backs up the Anthro teachers and
administrator. (Hand-picked Formation Charter Council alert.) This parent
leaves, but decides that no other special needs child should have to go
through what her child went through and files a lawsuit - still not
understanding that they had just experienced a situation where a religous
worldview got in the way of her special needs child's legal rights.
This is a true story. I read about this lawsuit and phoned this parent to
give her the missing pieces to the puzzle. After her initial protest of "Oh
no, this wasn't at a religious school. This happened at a public school,"
she began to listen. I was the first person who had made any sense at all
throughout her woeful and alarming experience. I gave her reading materials
about Steiner's view on karma. The more she read, the angrier she got.
PLANS members are currently working with her lawyers. Denying a special
needs student's parent an IEP meeting is a HUGE no-no around here,
especially when this child's legal rights were denied because of a
religious world view. Unlike PLANS, this woman is suing for money.
Public funded Waldorf schools are just one big bad idea. At least the
Anthros can turn special needs kids away from their private schools. There
is enough bullying within the normal Waldorf population without bring in
these poor kids who are supposedly paying a karmic debt in this personal
life time.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 14:09:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Deborah Kelly (deborah_kelly yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Authority in Waldorf (was Re: Steffi in Finland)
) To try to give Steiner the benefit of the doubt, I
) don't think he meant
) authority in a power-oriented way. I doubt he meant
) it would be okay for
) adults to have sex with children.
Most people and religious organizations state that
they don't approve of adult sex with children, but it
certainly happens and by placing someone in authority
over children in the society we live in now certainly,
is the first step towards abuse.
DK
__________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 17:35:11 EST
From: Rechomba cs.com
Subject: Re: New Age "quilt"?
In a message dated 1/3/01 11:38:31 AM Eastern Standard Time,
winters_diana hotmail.com writes:
) )Gotta ask, Ray. Why "quilt"? Do you have any idea how that
) )terminology came about? I've never heard it before. It's an
) )oddly homey name for a repulsive little concept, IMHO.
)
)
) I thought it was a typo - "new age guilt."
) Diana
)
(G) Sorry bout that. But hey, what an interesting metaphor!
Ray
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 23:16:54 +0100
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: on an 'unenlightened' comment
Diana Winters wrote:
) [chris]
) )BTW, for those who are interested about what happens to the
) )French and Russian soldier after they die, we have the following: Steiner
) )quote]
)
) That was really bizarre, thanks Chris.
You mean you were and are too lazy reading for yourself the page I
pointed to, that Debra commented the content of without reading it, and
you now thank Chris for doing the reading, quoting of and commenting on
for you?
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 23:33:48 +0100
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Collection of PLANS lies and deceptive quoting - update
Chris Brostrup-Jensen wrote:
) I still think that the way Steiner was quoted in the Moerland book is
) unethical by any academic or literary standard and that Jelle was quite=
) right to point that out.
So is the quoting technique in the most academic article of all at the
site, which the moderator of PLANS' site probably is quite aware of,
repeatedly referring to the work from which it is taken.
A number of critics experience a number of Waldorf teachers and
anthroposophists in US as authoritarian and take that as an expression
in general of anthroposophy as cultivating authoritarianism, based on
the view of Steiner as a 'guru', wishing to have to him personally
reverent adherents.
As part of a 'proof' of this, the author of the mentioned article,
Sven-Ove Hanson, the main initiator of the Swedish branch of CSICOP,
writes, quoting and commenting on Steiner:
"There are children who look up with reverent awe [heilige Scheu] to
certain venerated persons. Their reverence for these people forbids
them, even in the deepest depths of their hearts, to admit any thought
of criticism or opposition... Many occult pupils [Geheimsch=FCler] come
from the ranks of such children."[5]
If a disciple has not been born with this attitude, it is necessary that
he "undertakes by rigorous self-education to engender within himself
this attitude of devotion". The reason for this is that "every
criticism, every adverse judgement passed, dispels the powers of the
soul for the attainment of higher knowledge, just as reverent veneration
develops these powers".[6]"
[5] and [6] refer to 'Rudolf Steiner: Knowledge of the Higher Worlds.
How it is achieved?'
Me:
It would take too much time and energy, not available to me, to comment
in detail the article in its argumentation, into which repeatedly untrue
snide comments slip in like, to take but one example: =
SOH:
"Steiner also taught many other branches of knowledge, such as
agriculture, medicine and education. His source of knowledge was always
the same: His own clairvoyant visions." =
Me:
The statement is quite untrue.
The quote [5] makes it stand out as if Steiner thought it was important
for students of spiritual science to be reverent to persons; implicitly
himself in the case of anthroposophy, which is one of the main
argumentations of the article by SOH.
What Steiner points to in the context is something quite else, that SOH
leaves out. The context, from which SOH takes his 'quote' is taken from
the first chapter of KHW, discussing the 'Conditions' for starting to
understand more deeper layers of reality.
Steiner (in translation from the Swedish edition 1964 of KHW):
'A certain basic mood of the soul must be a beginning. The occultist
calls this basic mood _the way of reverence and devotion_ to truth and
knowledge. Only someone who has this basic mood can be a student of
spiritual science. Those who are experienced in this area know what
aptitudes that can be noted already during childhood in those who later
become pupils. =
(Then comes SOH:s quote:)
"There are children who look up with reverent awe [heilige Scheu] to
certain venerated persons. Their reverence for these people forbids
them, even in the deepest depths of their hearts, to admit any thought
of criticism or opposition [to arise. Such children grow up to become
youths, for which it is beneficial to be able to look up to look up to
someone for which they feel reverence.] Many occult pupils
[Geheimsch=FCler] come from the ranks of such children."[5]
He (Steiner) then continues:
'Have you ever stood before the door of someone you revered, and on this
first visit felt a sacred awe about opening the door and enter the room
that for you is a 'sanctuary', then a feeling has awoken in you that can
be a seed to your later pupilship. For every growing human it is a
blessing to have such feelings as aptitude. You must however not think
that such aptitudes are seeds to submission and slavery. What in
childhood is a reverence for people later in life becomes a reverence
for _truth_ and _knowledge_. Experience teaches that those people, that
have learnt to revere where it is in place, also are those who best
understand to carry their head freely.'
(_.._ are indented text parts.)
Knowing the context from which SOH quoted and seeing how he made the
description by Steiner of reverence for people in _childhood_ as if
Steiner depicted it as a model attitude also in _adulthood_, in terms of
remaining primarily a reverence for _people_ and not being transformed
into a reverence for _truth and knowledge_ made me stop trusting SOH
understood and truthfully described what he discusses in the article and
stop taking it seriously.
In biology an analogical situation would be someone who did not
understand the difference between Ametabola, Hemimetabola and
Holometabola insects (the first type retaining their young forms in
adulthood, almost only growing in size, the last type completely
metamorphosing from their young form to adulthood, and the second type
developing through a gradual or incomplete metamorphosis into
adulthood).
What Steiner describes as a process of _metamorphosis_ of reverence for
people in childhood to a reverence for truth and knowledge in adulthood,
SOH refers with his quoting technique as if Steiner had described an
_Ametabol_ process.
I think many of the quotes at PLANS' site constitute similar
misrepresentations, smaller or greater, of what anthroposophy is about,
in very few instances, can't immediately remember one, coming close to
what it is about, as I understand it.
) I'm also glad to notice that the PLANS site
) does say quite clearly that it provides a platform for anti-Waldorf
) writers of all stripes, without taking any responsibility for the conte=
nt of
) what they write.
That is not quite what it actually says. What it says is:
'PLANS makes available all the opinions about Waldorf that we can find
from sources outside of Anthroposophy.' which is another untruth
presented at the site.
It is not true that PLANS 'makes available all the opinions about
Waldorf that' it 'can find from sources outside of Anthroposophy'. _One_
of many such opinions is for example the article 'Schooling the
imagination' by Todd Oppenheimer, found at
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/99sep/9909waldorf.htm
The simple reason as I understand it is that the moderator of PLANS'
site finds it basically and in principle impossible no to think of
someone positive to Waldorf education as an 'anthroposophist' and
therefore by default to be a source 'inside Anthroposophy'. =
One such instance (of surely many possible) was when he argued some time
ago about the Professor of Philosophy of Science that gave me 'very
good' as judgement of my article on the concept of science, as if he was
an 'anthroposophist', seemingly not being able to think that someone who
finds it to be a good article on the subject not to be an
'anthroposophist'.
The same systematical fault and untruthfulness is found in the selected
material at the site of PLANS. If it said 'PLANS makes available all the
critical opinions about Waldorf that we can find' it would be somewhat
true.
But that is not what is says. What it says is:
'PLANS makes available all the opinions about Waldorf that we can find
from sources outside of Anthroposophy.'.
That is 100% untrue.
) Full disclosure is a good thing. ;-) If it were my
) game to play I'd still yank things that I knew to be factually or
) procedurally flawed, but that's a personal call.
I think the moderator of the list and PLANS' site repeatedly shows he
does not have the personal call you have, at the same time that one of
the basic criticism by PLANS of Waldorf schools for not being truthful
in their presentation is what is - I think - one of the main
characteristics of PLANS; its untruthfulness in presenting Rudolf
Steiner, anthroposophy and Waldorf education.
Regards,
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 23:16:48 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: on an 'unenlightened' comment
[Sune:]
)You mean you were and are too lazy reading for yourself the page I
)pointed to, that Debra commented the content of without reading it, and
)you now thank Chris for doing the reading, quoting of and commenting on
)for you?
I'll just ignore that, since you usually ignore my questions and comments
when you tire of them, I guess. Any chance you're going to get back to me on
my questions to you from last week?
1) The Bowman book, which you proposed as useful new information confirming
reincarnation, which I pointed out has a lot of stuff that's very easy to
debunk. Six year olds who know the word "betrothed," must have learned it in
another lifetime! Any comments? Or did you just cross it off your reading
list after my helpful book review? :)
2) My comment that although Waldorf educators claim Waldorf schools don't
teach anthroposophy, the claim is disingenuous because Waldorf schools don't
teach *any* ideas directly, at least to children under 14. The method is
such as reported by Paula today, e.g., the Rainbow Bridge story, which is a
little parable about reincarnation and karmic relationships between family
members, which Waldorf kindergarteners obviously readily grasp the
implications of.
Do you have arguments to refute this? (Or links? :)
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 15:21:29 -0800 (PST)
From: iris springflower (irisspringflower yahoo.com)
Subject: Thanks Paula (Re: victims/bullies)
Thanks, Paula, for sharing your experiences! Now it
makes a lot of sense to me why a certain Waldorf
teacher I know looks down at people who have been
victimized and says they are "negative" when they talk
about their being abused and victimized! I am learning
so MUCH here! Best Wishes, Iris
__________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 15:43:44 -0800
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: on an 'unenlightened' comment
)Diana Winters wrote:
)
)) [chris]
)) )BTW, for those who are interested about what happens to the
)) )French and Russian soldier after they die, we have the following: Steiner
)) )quote]
))
)) That was really bizarre, thanks Chris.
)
)You mean you were and are too lazy reading for yourself the page I
)pointed to, that Debra commented the content of without reading it, and
)you now thank Chris for doing the reading, quoting of and commenting on
)for you?
[Debra]
I merely gave a testimonial of Steiner's view on karma as it was translated
inside one school, Sune. My comment was directed at Chris, who seems to be
on a sudden and fast learning curve.
Personally I have read enough of Steiner's theory on karma to last me
awhile. At this point I'm less interested in studying more and more Steiner
than I am studying the affects of Steiner's view on Waldorf students. I
never seem to get bored of that, and never even seem to lose my ability to
feel appalled.
Another thing that is boring me right now is your cheap shots at the
critics. Why don't you defend your guru? Sune, what I am interested in is
how you would try to convince Chris that his interpretation of Steiner's
view on karma is wrong, or if you don't think it is wrong, tell us why.
Want to give it a shot?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 01:08:30 +0100
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: on an 'unenlightened' comment
Diana Winters wrote:
) I'll just ignore that, since you usually ignore my questions and comments
) when you tire of them, I guess.
I don't generally ignore them. I generally read them. But there is a
limit to my possibilities, as I tried to hint at in the suggestion to
give me a week to answering your questions and comments. I work full
time and it takes quite some time researching different sources,
reading, preparing and writing to the list. And only the last two days
you wrote 13 mails to the list (according to the the dating in my
mailbox).
It seems the participants on the WSO-list mainly have abandoned it,
putting about 9 times as many postings on this list last month (c. 900!)
as on the WSO-list (128). Was it too boring, having nobody to argue
against ...?
What can I do? I have to prioritize.
) Any chance you're going to get back to me on
) my questions to you from last week?
)
) 1) The Bowman book, which you proposed as useful new information confirming
) reincarnation, which I pointed out has a lot of stuff that's very easy to
) debunk. Six year olds who know the word "betrothed," must have learned it in
) another lifetime! Any comments? Or did you just cross it off your reading
) list after my helpful book review? :)
No. I generally don't write books off on your recommendation. Where
would that have put me in life ...
I just mentioned the book in passing, not as you wrote 'hoping [it]
provided credible evidence of reincarnation' - I don't base my
understanding of the issue on books trying to 'prove' it - but as a book
I had seen at a friends place, and that she recommended as interesting
and that some on the list might find to be a contribution to the subject
discussed. I haven't read it and probably won't in the near future, as I
have too much else to do and worry about.
) 2) My comment that although Waldorf educators claim Waldorf schools don't
) teach anthroposophy, the claim is disingenuous because Waldorf schools don't
) teach *any* ideas directly, at least to children under 14.
I think you're mixing two different issues in a way that would need
space and time, that at present is beyond what is available to me, to
dissect and comment on, even though it would be interesting.
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 02:06:22 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: on an 'unenlightened' comment
)I'll just ignore that, since you usually ignore my questions and )comments
)when you tire of them, I guess.
[Sune]
)I don't generally ignore them. I generally read them. But there is a
)limit to my possibilities, as I tried to hint at in the suggestion to
)give me a week to answering your questions and comments.
That's fine. But then don't get touchy with me if I can't pretend to read
*every* link you post, Sune. :)
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 02:41:34 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Collection of PLANS lies and deceptive quoting - update
[Chris wrote:]
)In light of what I saw in the Steiner lecture on Lucifer, Ahriman and )WW1
)I am much more sympathetic to Diana's argument that Moerland had a )more or
)less accurate understanding of Steiner's perspective, no )matter how poor
)his quoting practice. The POV ascribed to Steiner by )Moerland is very
)consistent with what Steiner himself said openly in )that lecture.
I didn't read that particular lecture (sorry, Sune), but I've got a whole
volume of tedious Steiner lectures on karma (or at least I did, I may have
loaned it out awhile back). Believe me, it's no secret. It's what "karma"
means.
)I still think that the way Steiner was quoted in the Moerland book is
)unethical by any academic or literary standard and that Jelle was quite
)right to point that out
It was quite fair for Jelle to point it out. It's hard not to suspect,
however, that Jelle hoped we would think Moerland misunderstood Steiner or
was deliberately misrepresenting him - that the misquoting was some kind of
set-up.
Actually, I do think Jelle thought that. I don't attribute ill motives to
Jelle, however, as I think Jelle really doesn't think Steiner could have
said or thought anything racist. I'm sure his outrage is genuine.
Diana
P.S. What I have still got here is "Chance, Providence, and Necessity"
(eight lectures held in Dornach betw/August 23 and Sept. 6, 1915). I haven't
read this one, though. It looks very dense. I see that one lecture is
summarized in the contents as "Necessity and chance in historical events."
Will try to check it out.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 22:02:25 -0400
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: somewhere, over the rainbow, er, bridge
Paula wrote, in a message posted earlier today:
((On a different topic, our 5 year old Kindergartener frequently instructed
us that "Someday, we will go back across the Rainbow Bridge. Mommy and
Daddy, you will go before I do unless I have to go first. We hang around
and when it is time, we come back down and are a baby again. I hope you get
to be my mommy and daddy again, but maybe I will get to be your daddy
first." ))
Lisa here: At our former school, there was an actual RAINBOW BRIDGE CROSSING
CEREMONY for the new first graders.
On the first day of first grade each year, the children entering that
class would actually walk across a wooden platform draped in various,
rainbow colored silks that was positioned so that it traversed the threshold
of the first grade classroom.
The movement across the "bridge" was done in a ritualized manner with an
attitude of that old Waldorf standby, "reverence." (*Mystery school* alert:
this ritual is loaded with magical, ritual aspects, from the rainbow =
reincarnation to the crossing of the threshold, symbolizing the children
moving from one phase of development to the next ... in this case, crossing
from babyhood to the next phase, during which they become students of their
new spiritual leader, the teacher.)
Birthday celebrations in our former school's nursery/kindergarten also
involved a symbolic acting-out of the child's birth/rebirth, and employed
the "rainbow bridge" as a symbol. I have seen it down several ways, but the
basic model has the teacher telling a story about how the birthday child
lived in heaven and entered the "green and lovely Earth" and the presence of
his or her parents by "sliding down the rainbow bridge" after a crystal
ball/toy that the spirit child (in heaven) was playing with, but dropped.
The child who had a birthday directly before the now-birthday child becomes
the "star child," taking the hand of the birthday child to show him or her
the way into the Earth. (Note that before the children traverse the rainbow
bridge -- some silk scarves arranged carefully on the floor -- the teacher
always mentions how the birthday child "played with" and "knew" his or her
classmates in the heaven world. ) There is mention of the "houses" of the
"moon, sun and stars."
As enthusiastic as the teachers are about performing this ceremony, they
balk when parents/relatives want to videotape it. I asked very nicely if I
could have my sister come and videotape my younger girl's birthday ceremony
last spring (I did not want to do it myself, as I was a part of the ceremony
-- sitting in a chair, waiting to receive the birthday child.) The
unequivocal answer was "No! It will ruin the reverent mood of the ritual."
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 22:27:46 -0400
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: creeping New Ageism in medicine, healthcare
Thank YOU, Dan ... and your wording "evidence based medicine" is exactly
what I meant. I had no clue that "allopathic" was considered pejorative. I
appreciate your enlightening me on this aspect.
I completely agree that Anthroposophical "medicine" is frightening, and
worthy of a look-see. I cannot tell you how many times, while I was still a
Waldorf school parent, teachers and the two school eurythmists strongly
suggested that I take up curative eurythmy as a way of "working out" my
chronic pain problem. Despite the fact that I did pay for and suffer through
so many irrational, woo woo therapies (I think being bled by acupuncture
needles ... three sharp, deliberate jabs in the index and middle fingers,
then the practitioner pressed down on my fingertips so the blood just
dripped down ... takes the cake in the "stupidest thing I ever did"
category. I excuse myself by remembering how difficult it is to deal with
chronic pain, and how desperate one becomes ...)
The teachers also would warn me that if my daughter did not "move out of her
head" (early self-taught reading child alert ... "in her head" meant
abstract thinking) and "into her trunk," she, too, might suffer this kind of
head pain. A very low blow to me, as I was already worried that my
biological child would inherit migraine tendencies. We were referred to a
local homeopath/Anthro practitioner for my daughter and visited him once.
----------
)From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
)To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)Subject: Re: creeping New Ageism in medicine, healthcare
)Date: Wed, Jan 3, 2001, 6:05 AM
)
) Lisa, you wrote,
)
))I am now at the point (no pun intended!) where I accept treatment only from
))licensed, allopathic physicians who know what they are doing. Fortunately, I
))have found one, and we are working together on my particular difficulty.
)
) Good for you. Would you do me a favor? On the skeptical side of
) things we call it "evidence based medicine, or "scientific medicine."
) "Allopathic" is an invention of the homeopaths, and those on the
) scientific side prefer not to identify themselves by a slur. Also,
) don't want real medicine to be called "Western," because it's
) practiced world-wide and it's practices evolve by world-wide
) research. BTW did you know only about 15% of Chinese people use
) traditional Chinese medicine?
)
))All this widespread acceptance of irrational, woo woo (based on no research,
))just anecdotes) disturbs me. If practitioners of this stuff would be
))forthcoming about the lack of evidence behind it, I would feel much better.
))As it is, I just look back at all I went through (and spent!) in a vain hope
))of getting help, and I shake my head.
)
) The reason this is on-topic here is that we have Anthroposophical
) Medicine to deal with. After the school thing is settled I want to
) work on that.
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
) ___________________________________________________________
) T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17
) Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 19:42:35 -0800
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
Just before Sharon left for the holidays, a big discussion took place after
I called Waldorf schools Occult Mystery schools. Robert Flannery made fun
of my term and questioned my credibility (again). Sharon, a bright
researcher for PLANS, produced what I thought was damning evidence to back
up my assertion.
I finally got a breather today, after long term guests departed, to take
this thread on again - hopefully just in time for Sharon to re-join us.
While touring The Rosicrucian Museum in San Jose, CA over Thanksgiving
holidays, I grabbed a free 32 page booklet called 'Mystery of Life'. Right
off the bat, the booklet dispels any notion that The Rosicrucian Order, or
AMORC, which stands for 'Ancient and Mystical Order Rosae Crucis' is
religious. They, like Anthroposophy, encourages members to continue going
to their same church, but use AMORC to "find a greater appreciation of the
mystical principals underlying their individual religious and philosophical
beliefs."
AMORC is hauntingly similar to Anthroposophy. It is a complete system. The
booklet, in part, says:
The Rosicrucian system is unique - it provides a foundation that ties
together all of the different aspects of metaphysical study, and
demonstrates their connectedness. To our knowledge, it's the only system
that does this. Understanding the natural laws that govern all realms -
physical, mental, emotional, psychic, and spiritual - leads to true
prosperity and peace of mind. ... [T]he Rosencrucian Order provides a
systematic approach to the study of higher wisdom that empowers you to find
the answers to your questions about the workings of the universe, the
interconnectedness of all life, your higher purpose, and how it all fits
together."
(Sound familiar to any Anthroposophists here?)
The booklet describes the progression of the teaching which includes the
course study books. First are the introductory lessons, and six books
later, one may then move on to the 'First Atrium'. There is another set of
books to read before moving through the second and third 'Atriums.'
)From the booklet:
" ...having completed the lessons of the Neophyte section, you stand at an
important milestone in your progress along the mystical path."
One can now move to the 'Temple Section,' and six degrees and *75* (!!!$$)
books later, one will have a 'Ninth Temple Degree' that "gives you the
opportunity to utilize the highest metaphysical powers in practical ways to
affect positive conditions in your environment and your life in accordance
with the greatest good."
None of the book titles listed throughout the course study list the
authors, but a few of the books beg the question:
"I wonder who wrote _that_ book?"
In the Third Atrium, one of the required books is called 'Reincarnation and
Karma.' (Remember, no authors are listed.)
I drug out my Anthroposophic Press Catalog. There are some
very interesting comparisons between AMORC course study and the Waldorf
Teacher Training course study. How about 'Reincarnation of the Soul.' Sound
familiar to anyone reading Steiner or even just The Anthro Press Catalog?
One must read/study 'Reincarnation of the Soul' to become a 'Third Temple
Degree' in a self-confessed mystery school.
Anther book on the AMORC course study list is one that Sharon may be
interested in. It's called 'Mystical Power of Vowel Sounds and Mantras.'
(err, could it be, err, Eurythmy?)
Just as a quick comparison, The Anthroposophic Press offers this title:
'Eurythmy as Visable Speech' (by guess who?? RS, himself!)
I wonder who copied who here? Next time I go visit my hubby's Mother, I'll
see if I can find out when AMORC's book was written... (Wanna place bets on
who wrote the seemingly similar books first? Do you think it was Steiner or
the AMORC author?)
Listen to a few more comparisons, while you remember that there are 75 book
titles listed in the AMORC booklet. Ready?
)From the Anthroposophic Press Catalog:
Just for fun, I'm going to use only the book titles written by Rudolf
Steiner, OK?
AMORC:
Cosmic Consciousness
Cosmic Purpose of Life
Anthro Press:
Cosmic and Human Metamorphoses
Cosmic Christ
Cosmic Memory
This just goes on and on like this throughout all 75 books listed in the
Temple Degree course study. Every single book title sounds very familiar to
anyone who has read any Anthroposophy at all. I'll go on, but remember,
this list id from the AMORC, NOT The Anthro Press Catalog.
AMORC:
Incarnation of the Soul
Mastery of Karma
Reincarnation of the Soul
Memory of Past Incarnations
Universal Soul and the Human Soul
Help to the Dying, Before and After Death
Good and Evil and Free Will
Human Consciousness and Cosmic Consciousness
Law of the Triangle
Symbols - Natural, Artificial, and Mystical
Material Alchemy
Transistion of the Soul
Memory of Past Incarnations
The Four Principles: Earth, Water, Air and Fire
OK, for those of you not too familiar with The Anthroposophical Press
offerings, I'll help you out.
Anthro Press/Rudolf Steiner:
Reincarnation and Karma
Reincarnation and Immortality
Life Between Death and Rebirth
Universal Human
How to Know Higher Worlds
Christianity as Mystical Fact
Egyptian Myths and Mysteries
Rosecrucian Esotericism
Like I said, it just goes on an on. Both Anthroposophy and AMORC offers
answers for all of life's questions, and they sound very similar.
Waldorf as occult mystery schools? Not too far of a stretch.
Debra
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 23:26:40 EST
From: Rechomba cs.com
Subject: Re: Steffi in Finland
In a message dated 1/2/01 9:19:45 AM Eastern Standard Time,
deborah_kelly yahoo.com writes:
) In other words he appears to be a free
) thinker and I am certain that is why he did not fit
) into WE. Now how does that fit in with the karma
) stuff? Why wasn't he allowed to follow his karma?
) Doesn't what you describe in WE run counter to most
) children's karma?
)
Arguing from the perspective of someone who believes in karma, this child
being kicked out is something that was necessary and predetermined by him
either in the astral plane or in the past life either conciously or otherwise
(all events can be explained in hindsight).As for my opinion: what the hell
do I know?
Ray
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 00:48:09 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Yuba River's Advent invitation
Speckraybill, you wrote,
)our 5 year old Kindergartener frequently instructed us that
)"Someday, we will go back across the Rainbow Bridge. Mommy and
)Daddy, you will go before I do unless I have to go first. We hang
)around and when it is time, we come back down and are a baby again.
) I hope you get to be my mommy and daddy again, but maybe I will get
)to be your daddy first." What do you all think?
That the child had been listening to an Anthroposophist.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 01:13:17 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Collection of PLANS lies and deceptive quoting - update
Sune, you wrote,
)The same systematical fault and untruthfulness is found in the selected
)material at the site of PLANS. If it said 'PLANS makes available all the
)critical opinions about Waldorf that we can find' it would be somewhat
)true.
)
)But that is not what is says. What it says is:
)'PLANS makes available all the opinions about Waldorf that we can find
)from sources outside of Anthroposophy.'.
)
)That is 100% untrue.
Was about 98% true. But I'd prefer to go for 100%. When you
complained about it months ago I revised it to read:
PLANS tries to make available all the critical opinions about Waldorf
that we can find. The authors are responsible for the contents of the
following articles. PLANS does not necessarily agree with or vouch
for the veracity of everything posted in this section.
OK now?
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 23:48:49 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: "School as a Journey: The Eight-Year Odyssey of a Waldorf
Teacher. . ."
Newpaul, you wrote,
)children get a
)view of the old testament not as the word of God, but as a fairy tale.
)It carries no more significance than the norse myths they will study in
)4th grade. In my view this is just as detrimental as having no
)spiritual education at all.
There's talk of "the spiral curriculum," though different people seem
to have different ideas about what that means. My theory on the third
and fourth grade is that the curriculum "spirals" through Steiner's
"two cultural streams," Jewish and Aryan. Third grade is the ancient
texts of the Jews, and fourth grade is the (purported) ancient texts
of the (imagined) Aryans.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:51:58 +0200
From: Christopher Yavelow (Christopher yav.com)
Subject: Re: "School as a Journey: The Eight-Year Odyssey of a Waldorf
Teacher. . ."
Deborah quoted Torin Finser:
)Finser also writes about a "tooth inventory" which
)made me very uncomfortable. Why is a teacher poking
)in and around the mouths of other people? He
)apparently neither sought nor was given permission to
)do so.
Christopher:
I don't know how it is elsewhere but the two Waldorf schools I've
been involved with (one in California and one in the Netherlands)
have both placed extreme importance on the number of baby teeth lost.
The one in the Netherlands perhaps more so, because when we moved the
the Netherlands, the administration based the placement of my
daughters (grade-wise) entirely upon the number of baby teeth they
had lost. At the time, I chalked it up to wackiness but decided not
to complain because the results eventually mirrored those I desired.
I was under the impression that this was standard operating procedure.
Christopher Yavelow
http://www.StolenChildren.net/
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 115
-- Topica Digest -- issue 116
Re: Yuba River's Advent invitation
By Speckraybill aol.com
RE: "School as a Journey: The Eight-Year Odyssey of a Waldorf Teacher. .
By paixs yahoo.com.br
"Karma" used as victim-blaming
By irisspringflower yahoo.com
Re: "School as a Journey: The Eight-Year Odyssey of a Waldorf Teacher. .
By Speckraybill aol.com
Re: on an 'unenlightened' comment
By c_brostrup-jensen brown.edu
Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
By c_brostrup-jensen brown.edu
Re: Collection of PLANS lies and deceptive quoting - update
By c_brostrup-jensen brown.edu
Racism definition
By c_brostrup-jensen brown.edu
Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
By dingman mindspring.com
Re: on an 'unenlightened' comment
By winters_diana hotmail.com
RE: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
By paixs yahoo.com.br
Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
By steve premofine.com
Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
By steve premofine.com
RE: "School as a Journey: The Eight-Year Odyssey of a Waldorf Teacher. .
By steve premofine.com
Re: Racism definition
By steve premofine.com
Re: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
By Speckraybill aol.com
Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
By snell netshel.net
Re: on an 'unenlightened' comment
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
Re: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
By snell netshel.net
Re: on an 'unenlightened' comment
By dingman mindspring.com
Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
By steve premofine.com
Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
By dingman mindspring.com
Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
By snell netshel.net
Re: on an 'unenlightened' comment
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
By althaea warwick.net
Re: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
By althaea warwick.net
Re: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
By steve premofine.com
Questions to ask a Waldorf School
By snell netshel.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 07:21:25 EST
From: Speckraybill aol.com
Subject: Re: Yuba River's Advent invitation
--part1_57.fc4d58f.2785c4c5_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 01/04/2001 1:26:59 AM Pacific Standard Time,
dan dandugan.com writes:
) That the child had been listening to an Anthroposophist.
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
Of course, the only place our child was in contact with anthroposophists was
the school "where anthroposophy isn't taught " ;)
--part1_57.fc4d58f.2785c4c5_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
(HTML)(FONT FACE=arial,helvetica)(FONT SIZE=3 FAMILY="DECORATIVE" FACE="Tempus Sans ITC" LANG="0")In a message dated 01/04/2001 1:26:59 AM Pacific Standard Time, (BR)dan dandugan.com writes:
(BR)
(BR)(/FONT)(FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0")
(BR)(BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px")That the child had been listening to an Anthroposophist.
(BR)
(BR)-Dan Dugan
(BR)(/BLOCKQUOTE)
(BR)(/FONT)(FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="DECORATIVE" FACE="Tempus Sans ITC" LANG="0")
(BR)Of course, the only place our child was in contact with anthroposophists was (BR)the school "where anthroposophy isn't taught " ;)
(BR)
(BR)(/FONT)(/HTML)
--part1_57.fc4d58f.2785c4c5_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4-Jan-2001 12:45:38 GMT
From: Clara Paix (paixs yahoo.com.br)
Subject: RE: "School as a Journey: The Eight-Year Odyssey of a Waldorf Teacher. .
Christopher Yavelow wrote:
) ) I don't know how it is elsewhere but the two Waldorf schools I've
) been involved with (one in California and one in the Netherlands)
) have both placed extreme importance on the number of baby teeth lost.
) The one in the Netherlands perhaps more so, because when we moved the
) the Netherlands, the administration based the placement of my
) daughters (grade-wise) entirely upon the number of baby teeth they
) had lost. At the time, I chalked it up to wackiness but decided not
) to complain because the results eventually mirrored those I desired.
) I was under the impression that this was standard operating procedure.
)
Clara:
Have any of you also heard of this: a child is only ready to go to first
grade when she manages to touch her right year with her left hand (with
her arm bending over her head)?
I¥ve heard it many times; is also this - highly scientific ;) -
procedure common in other WSs?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 04:53:16 -0800 (PST)
From: iris springflower (irisspringflower yahoo.com)
Subject: "Karma" used as victim-blaming
Hi. I have to be blunt here. Using "karma" as
victim-blaming (I hate victim-blaming!) is AWFUL!
IRRESPONSIBLE! CRUEL! DAMAGING! It also excuses
human cruelty and abuse of all kinds.
Best Wishes, Iris
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
http://photos.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 09:19:29 EST
From: Speckraybill aol.com
Subject: Re: "School as a Journey: The Eight-Year Odyssey of a Waldorf Teacher. .
--part1_73.9c20a63.2785e071_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 01/04/2001 4:46:18 AM Pacific Standard Time,=20
paixs yahoo.com.br writes:
) Clara:
) Have any of you also heard of this: a child is only ready to go to first=20
) grade when she manages to touch her right year with her left hand (with=20
) her arm bending over her head)?
) I=B4ve heard it many times; is also this - highly scientific ;) -=20
) procedure common in other WSs?
)=20
)=20
Yes, I have heard of it. This was one of the assessment tools used to=20
determine who was "first grade ready" at my son's last school. Along with=20
the tooth inventory, of course. :)
Paula
--part1_73.9c20a63.2785e071_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
(HTML)(FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica)(FONT SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"DECORATIVE" FAC=
E=3D"Tempus Sans ITC" LANG=3D"0")In a message dated 01/04/2001 4:46:18 AM Pa=
cific Standard Time, (BR)paixs yahoo.com.br writes:
(BR)
(BR)(/FONT)(FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Ar=
ial" LANG=3D"0")
(BR)(BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-=
LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px")Clara:
(BR)Have any of you also heard of this: a child is only ready to go to first=
=20
(BR)grade when she manages to touch her right year with her left hand (with=20
(BR)her arm bending over her head)?
(BR)I=B4ve heard it many times; is also this - highly scientific ;) -=20
(BR)procedure common in other WSs?
(BR)
(BR)(/BLOCKQUOTE)
(BR)(/FONT)(FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"DECORATIVE" FACE=3D"T=
empus Sans ITC" LANG=3D"0")
(BR)Yes, I have heard of it. This was one of the assessment tools used=
to (BR)determine who was "first grade ready" at my son's last school. =
;Along with (BR)the tooth inventory, of course. :)
(BR)
(BR)Paula
(BR)
(BR)(/FONT)(/HTML)
--part1_73.9c20a63.2785e071_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 09:50:24 -0500
From: Chris Brostrup-Jensen (C_Brostrup-Jensen brown.edu)
Subject: Re: on an 'unenlightened' comment
On Wed, 3 Jan 2001, Debra Snell (snell netshel.net) wrote:
)[Debra]
)
)I merely gave a testimonial of Steiner's view on karma as it was translated
)inside one school, Sune. My comment was directed at Chris, who seems to be
)on a sudden and fast learning curve.
[Chris]
LOL! I can't recall the last time I was accused of doing anything fast or
suddenly! :-) Can I tell my wife you said so? ;-)
)Personally I have read enough of Steiner's theory on karma to last me
)awhile. At this point I'm less interested in studying more and more Steiner
)than I am studying the affects of Steiner's view on Waldorf students. I
)never seem to get bored of that, and never even seem to lose my ability to
)feel appalled.
I agree. The real nub of the issue is how, and how much, Steiner's
beliefs affect the kids in real Waldorf classrooms today. It is definitely
helpful to understand what the anthroposophical belief system is (and
I am working hard to catch up in that department), but the welfare of
the kids is the bottom line. And that is not an easy thing to measure
or get at. Personal experiences are powerful and can be informative,
especially where patterns appear. But it is so hard to know how big a
piece of the complete quilt (there's that word again! ;-) of Waldorf
experience that we are seeing on this small list. I know there is no
easy answer to that. I do wish that there were more happy Waldorf
parents like Neil or satisfied ex-students on the list. And of course,
the final responsibility is mine as a parent to observe my child and his
particular school closely to be sure I understand what happens there
and how it affects his well-being.
Chris
Chris Brostrup-Jensen
Father of a 4-year-old at
Meadowbrook Waldorf School
Rhode Island, USA
C_Brostrup-Jensen Brown.edu
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 10:06:22 -0500
From: Chris Brostrup-Jensen (C_Brostrup-Jensen brown.edu)
Subject: Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
On Wed, 3 Jan 2001, Debra Snell (snell netshel.net) wrote:
[Debra]
)Just before Sharon left for the holidays, a big discussion took place after
)I called Waldorf schools Occult Mystery schools. Robert Flannery made fun
)of my term and questioned my credibility (again). Sharon, a bright
)researcher for PLANS, produced what I thought was damning evidence to back
)up my assertion.
[Chris]
I still think that based on Sharon's own, quite specific, definition
of "mystery school" Waldorf does not qualify, but I've promised
not to fight that battle any more. Just had to flag this one.
[Debra]
)I finally got a breather today, after long term guests departed, to take
)this thread on again - hopefully just in time for Sharon to re-join us.
)
)While touring The Rosicrucian Museum in San Jose, CA over Thanksgiving
)holidays, I grabbed a free 32 page booklet called 'Mystery of Life'. Right
)off the bat, the booklet dispels any notion that The Rosicrucian Order, or
)AMORC, which stands for 'Ancient and Mystical Order Rosae Crucis' is
)religious. They, like Anthroposophy, encourages members to continue going
)to their same church, but use AMORC to "find a greater appreciation of the
)mystical principals underlying their individual religious and philosophical
)beliefs."
)
)AMORC is hauntingly similar to Anthroposophy.
[Chris]
Debra then goes on to provide a bundle of examples of the similarities in
titles (and presumably concepts) between anthroposophical and Rosicrucian
books.
I've already noticed a number of Steiner references to Rosicrucians and
their ideas. It seems that they preceded him and must have affected his
own ideas very substantially. The closing paragraph of his lecture about
Lucifer and Ahriman that I've been ragging on runs like this:
)With such feelings in our hearts we forever want to imbue ourselves with
)the meaning of the rose cross so that we can perceive it in the proper way
)as the motto for our doing, weaving and feeling. Not the black cross
)alone. He who tears the roses from the black cross and has nothing left
)but the black cross, would fall into the clutches of Ahriman. The black
)cross in itself represents life when it strives to embrace inanimate
)matter. Also, if one were to separate the cross from the roses, keeping
)only the latter, one would nor find the proper thing. For the roses,
)separate from the cross, tend to elevate us to a life of selfish striving
)toward the spiritual, but not to a life in which we reveal the spirit in a
)material world. Not the cross alone, not the roses alone, but the roses on
)the cross, the cross carrying the roses: That is our proper symbol.
Rose - cross - rosy - crucis - Rosicrucian. The link is there, although
I don't pretend to know what it signifies other than a very important
influence/source for Steiner.
Chris
Chris Brostrup-Jensen
Father of a 4-year-old at
Meadowbrook Waldorf School
Rhode Island, USA
C_Brostrup-Jensen Brown.edu
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 10:09:44 -0500
From: Chris Brostrup-Jensen (C_Brostrup-Jensen brown.edu)
Subject: Re: Collection of PLANS lies and deceptive quoting - update
On Thu, 4 Jan 2001, Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com) wrote:
)Sune, you wrote,
)
) )The same systematical fault and untruthfulness is found in the selected
) )material at the site of PLANS. If it said 'PLANS makes available all the
) )critical opinions about Waldorf that we can find' it would be somewhat
) )true.
) )
) )But that is not what is says. What it says is:
) )'PLANS makes available all the opinions about Waldorf that we can find
) )from sources outside of Anthroposophy.'.
) )
) )That is 100% untrue.
[Dan]
)Was about 98% true. But I'd prefer to go for 100%. When you
)complained about it months ago I revised it to read:
)
)PLANS tries to make available all the critical opinions about Waldorf
)that we can find. The authors are responsible for the contents of the
)following articles. PLANS does not necessarily agree with or vouch
)for the veracity of everything posted in this section.
[Chris]
Yeah, that's the disclaimer I saw. I was confused by the discrepancy
between what I thought I'd read and what Sune was saying. Thanks
for saving me the trip back to check it out, Dan.
Chris
Chris Brostrup-Jensen
Father of a 4-year-old at
Meadowbrook Waldorf School
Rhode Island, USA
C_Brostrup-Jensen Brown.edu
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 10:26:19 -0500
From: Chris Brostrup-Jensen (C_Brostrup-Jensen brown.edu)
Subject: Racism definition
On Wed, 3 Jan 2001, Deborah Kelly (deborah_kelly yahoo.com) wrote:
)Has a working definition of "racism" ever been
)broached on this list? El Haj Malik el Shabazz (known
)to those who want to remember him as he was long, long
)before he was killed as "Malcolm X") is considered to
)be a racist only by a certain segment of the
)population. This underlines the superficiality with
)which Steiner's and his followers bigotry is being
)treated. "Racism" has to do with a power
)relationship, not with calling other people bad names.
I've mostly stayed out of the discussions to date on
what is or is not racist, mainly because it's an
explosive subject and one that could easily escape
the bounds of relevance to Waldorf education. But
clearly racism is an issue with Steiner and there
seems to be a fair number of experiences floating
around that suggest it is an issue with the schools
as well. Plus it's hard for me to resist a question of
definition. ;-)
My dictionary defines racism as:
1 - The notion that one's own ethnic stock is superior
2 - Prejudice or discrimination based on racism
[presumably meaning based on definition #1 of racism]
Given what you say above, Deborah, I'm guessing that
definition will strike you as inadequate. I had friends in
college who considered themselves anti-racism activists.
The working definition of racism they tended to use was
summed up in the slogan "Racism is prejudice plus power."
By this they meant that the kind of beliefs that form meaning
#1 of the dictionary definition only rise to the level of true
racism if they are coupled with the power to act on those
beliefs in a way that hurts others. I'm guessing this is a
lot closer to what you have in mind. My problem with that
definition has always been with how one decides who has
enough power to hurt someone else. For my college
friends, that pretty much meant that you had to be white
to be racist in the US, but that seems like a limited
definition of "power" to me.
Anyway, I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on a
good, working definition of racism. I suspect that some of
the heat generated around that issue could be lessened if
we were all clearly talking about the same thing. Now do I
sound like a broken record? :-)
Chris
Chris Brostrup-Jensen
Father of a 4-year-old at
Meadowbrook Waldorf School
Rhode Island, USA
C_Brostrup-Jensen Brown.edu
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 10:41:22 -0500
From: Newpaul (dingman mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
Chris Brostrup-Jensen wrote:
The closing paragraph of his lecture about
) Lucifer and Ahriman that I've been ragging on runs like this:
)
) )With such feelings in our hearts we forever want to imbue ourselves with
) )the meaning of the rose cross so that we can perceive it in the proper way
) )as the motto for our doing, weaving and feeling. Not the black cross
) )alone. He who tears the roses from the black cross and has nothing left
) )but the black cross, would fall into the clutches of Ahriman. The black
) )cross in itself represents life when it strives to embrace inanimate
) )matter. Also, if one were to separate the cross from the roses, keeping
) )only the latter, one would nor find the proper thing. For the roses,
) )separate from the cross, tend to elevate us to a life of selfish striving
) )toward the spiritual, but not to a life in which we reveal the spirit in a
) )material world. Not the cross alone, not the roses alone, but the roses on
) )the cross, the cross carrying the roses: That is our proper symbol.
)
) Rose - cross - rosy - crucis - Rosicrucian. The link is there, although
) I don't pretend to know what it signifies other than a very important
) influence/source for Steiner.
Newpaul
Real Christians believe the cross is enough both symbolically and in
real life. Lucifer and Ahriman are both one and the same - satan. And
he has already been defeated by the power of the cross. Steiner's ideas
are so wacky, they can't be thought of as being Christian. It is
arrogance of the highest order for one who calls himself a christian to
say I need the cross and -whatever else-to believe.
Newpaul
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 15:33:37 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: on an 'unenlightened' comment
[Sune:]
)The real nub of the issue is how, and how much, Steiner's beliefs )affect
)the kids in real Waldorf classrooms today. It is definitely
)helpful to understand what the anthroposophical belief system is (and I am
)working hard to catch up in that department), but the )welfare of the kids
)is the bottom line.
Exactly. What happens repeatedly on this list is that anthroposophists tell
us disdainfully that although we have read Steiner, we obviously don't
really understand anthroposophy - subtle nuances, etc. Or we might as well
not bother if we can't discourse on how Steiner's epistemology differs from
. . . Aristotle's, or whoever. Or maybe that even some Waldorf teachers
don't really undestand what Steiner meant . . .
Chris, I for one will readily admit I haven't read enough Steiner, or had
the patience to struggle over the "difficult" Steiner, to claim to represent
anthroposophy correctly on a theoretical basis. I can't really recommend
that intense study of Steiner will clarify for you what goes on in Waldorf
schools, because of course it is all in the interpretation. (And, as you
have found, it is tedious and irritating.)
What I do stand by is my observations in the classroom, and my view is that
what I've observed reflects anthroposophy in action - whether I, or various
teachers, "misunderstand" or not. (This I say because I can find
clarification from Steiner for what I saw.)
The very best advice I can think of for concerned parents is to insist on
observing *at length*, in more than one classroom. (Not just for one hour
during some staged celebration that all the parents are invited to.) And
that you should be concerned if you must make an appointment two weeks in
advance. You should be able to pretty much drop in unannounced, IMO. But
preferably spend a whole day, or even two days, watching and absorbing what
goes on. This isn't easy for working parents, naturally, but it's what I
would recommend.
I say this because I realized that while our former school had many happy
parents, there was a pattern that parents who observed closely, volunteering
in classroom activities, as in spending several hours or a whole day, tended
to become very concerned about the atmosphere in the classrooms. This
suggested to me that many of the happy parents didn't have the full picture.
Of course, there are happy kids and happy classrooms in Waldorf too, you
might luck out.
In fact, observing in more than one Waldorf school is a good idea too, if
there is more than one in driving distance (I suspect there is in your
area). This will go a long way to straightening out in your mind what is
"Waldorf" and what is some teacher's peculiarities. The similarities between
schools are striking.
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4-Jan-2001 16:47:33 GMT
From: Clara Paix (paixs yahoo.com.br)
Subject: RE: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
Diana Winters wrote:
) The very best advice I can think of for concerned parents is to insist
) on ) observing *at length*, in more than one classroom. (Not just for
) one hour ) during some staged celebration that all the parents are
) invited to.) And ) that you should be concerned if you must make an
) appointment two weeks in ) advance. You should be able to pretty much
) drop in unannounced, IMO. But ) preferably spend a whole day, or even
) two days, watching and absorbing what ) goes on. This isn't easy for
) working parents, naturally, but it's what I
) would recommend.
)
) I say this because I realized that while our former school had many
) happy ) parents, there was a pattern that parents who observed closely,
) volunteering ) in classroom activities, as in spending several hours or
) a whole day, tended ) to become very concerned about the atmosphere in
) the classrooms. This ) suggested to me that many of the happy parents
) didn't have the full picture.
) Of course, there are happy kids and happy classrooms in Waldorf too, you
) ) might luck out.
)
Clara:
Agree 100%, Diana. And interesting that you mentioned that.
When I first thought of enroling my son at his present (constructivist)
school, I was asked (not _allowed_) to come and observe the school for
_a week_ before I made up my mind. So I did; for one whole week I could
drop by any given time and walk around as I pleased, going into
classrooms (just saying excuse me, can I come in for awhile). After that
the "head-teacher" called me for a 2nd interview and wanted to know how
I¥d felt, if I had any questions, etc. The aim was that I should be
completely at ease with the school and sure of my decision; we talked
for hours and everything I asked got direct answers. I was very
impressed by the open attitude (not used to it...).
Does that sound different from the WS interviews/enrolement processes
you know ;) ?
(side note - too bad I lost most of that time trying to question her
about all the _wrong_ things, like
why-dont-you-try-watercolour-painting...)
Clara
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 08:56:18 -0800
From: "Steve Premo" (steve premofine.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
On 4 Jan 2001, at 7:06, Chris Brostrup-Jensen wrote:
) On Wed, 3 Jan 2001, Debra Snell (snell netshel.net) wrote:
)
) [Debra]
) )While touring The Rosicrucian Museum in San Jose, CA over Thanksgiving
) )holidays, I grabbed a free 32 page booklet called 'Mystery of Life'. Right
) )off the bat, the booklet dispels any notion that The Rosicrucian Order, or
) )AMORC, which stands for 'Ancient and Mystical Order Rosae Crucis' is
) )religious. They, like Anthroposophy, encourages members to continue going
) )to their same church, but use AMORC to "find a greater appreciation of the
) )mystical principals underlying their individual religious and
) )philosophical beliefs."
) )
) )AMORC is hauntingly similar to Anthroposophy.
)
) [Chris]
) Debra then goes on to provide a bundle of examples of the similarities in
) titles (and presumably concepts) between anthroposophical and Rosicrucian
) books.
)
) I've already noticed a number of Steiner references to Rosicrucians and
) their ideas. It seems that they preceded him and must have affected his
) own ideas very substantially.
There are generic Rosicrucians, and there is the AMORC, which was founded
in 1915, in San Jose, California, by H. Spencer Lewis in San Jose.
Steiner's references to Rosicrucians are probably to the generic
rosicrucian ideas. I would imagine that he saw AMORC, like Theosophists,
as folks who have the right idea but are misguided by their inability to
study those ideas in an objective, scientific way. Unlike Steiner, who
thought he was a "scientist."
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"There is a right and a wrong in the Universe and
that distinction is not difficult to make." - Superman
http://www.premofine.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 08:56:18 -0800
From: "Steve Premo" (steve premofine.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
On 3 Jan 2001, at 19:40, Debra Snell wrote:
) None of the book titles listed throughout the course study list the
) authors . . .
You can find the authors for many of the books at:
http://www.rosicrucian.org/alexandria/amorcbks.html
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"There is a right and a wrong in the Universe and
that distinction is not difficult to make." - Superman
http://www.premofine.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 08:59:48 -0800
From: "Steve Premo" (steve premofine.com)
Subject: RE: "School as a Journey: The Eight-Year Odyssey of a Waldorf Teacher. .
On 4 Jan 2001, at 4:45, Clara Paix wrote:
)
) Christopher Yavelow wrote:
) ) ) I don't know how it is elsewhere but the two Waldorf schools I've
) ) been involved with (one in California and one in the Netherlands)
) ) have both placed extreme importance on the number of baby teeth lost. =
The
) ) one in the Netherlands perhaps more so, because when we moved the the
) ) Netherlands, the administration based the placement of my daughters
) ) (grade-wise) entirely upon the number of baby teeth they had lost. At =
the
) ) time, I chalked it up to wackiness but decided not to complain because
) ) the results eventually mirrored those I desired. I was under the
) ) impression that this was standard operating procedure.
) )
) Clara:
) Have any of you also heard of this: a child is only ready to go to first
) grade when she manages to touch her right year with her left hand (with =
her
) arm bending over her head)? I=B4ve heard it many times; is also this - h=
ighly
) scientific ;) - procedure common in other WSs?
It was considered one of the indicators for first grade readiness at the
Santa Cruz Waldorf School, along with losing baby teeth, and more "normal"=
factors, such as whether the kid fits in socially with the more advanced
kindergarteners.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"There is a right and a wrong in the Universe and
that distinction is not difficult to make." - Superman
http://www.premofine.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 09:26:57 -0800
From: "Steve Premo" (steve premofine.com)
Subject: Re: Racism definition
On 4 Jan 2001, at 7:26, Chris Brostrup-Jensen wrote:
) I had friends in college who considered themselves anti-racism
) activists. The working definition of racism they tended to use was summed
) up in the slogan "Racism is prejudice plus power." By this they meant
) that the kind of beliefs that form meaning #1 of the dictionary
) definition only rise to the level of true racism if they are coupled
) with the power to act on those beliefs in a way that hurts others. ...
) My problem with that definition has always been with how one decides who
) has enough power to hurt someone else. For my college friends, that
) pretty much meant that you had to be white to be racist in the US, but
) that seems like a limited definition of "power" to me.
I agree. There are many situations in which the power relationships
become reversed, and the oppressed become the oppressors. Such situations
have arisin in former Yugoslavia, in parts of Africa, and so on. Does the
attitude of animosity toward another ethnic group become racist only when
you rise to power? I don't think so.
And even here, where white people undoubtedly have more social, economic,
and political power than black people, there are situations in which
individual black people have power over individual white people. Here is
an example.
Suppose a black woman and a white man fall in love and decide that they
want to marry. The woman's parents harbor animosity toward white people,
and threaten to disown their daughter if she goes through with the
marriage. That is an exercise of power, so it would be considered racist
under that definition. However, their attitudes would not be considered
racist prior to that situation arising if they were not in a position to
cause harm by acting on their beliefs.
I don't buy it. I think that whenever one makes assumptions about the
character or abilities of another person based on that person's race, it
is racial prejudice, and racial prejudice is racism. This can be anything
from stereotyping to outright animosity. And I consider that to be a
subset of bigotry, which is not necessarily based on race, but may be
based on religion, sexual orientation, gender, etc.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"There is a right and a wrong in the Universe and
that distinction is not difficult to make." - Superman
http://www.premofine.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 12:35:19 EST
From: Speckraybill aol.com
Subject: Re: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
--part1_9a.e55639e.27860e57_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 01/04/2001 8:48:46 AM Pacific Standard Time,
paixs yahoo.com.br writes:
) (side note - too bad I lost most of that time trying to question her
) about all the _wrong_ things, like
) why-dont-you-try-watercolour-painting...)
) Clara
)
)
Why don't you schedule another talk time with the head teacher and ask all
those questions you didn't get to ask the first time? You will not be
sidetracked by other things and can concentrate on those areas you want to
know more about.
Paula.
--part1_9a.e55639e.27860e57_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
(HTML)(FONT FACE=arial,helvetica)(FONT SIZE=3 FAMILY="DECORATIVE" FACE="Tempus Sans ITC" LANG="0")In a message dated 01/04/2001 8:48:46 AM Pacific Standard Time, (BR)paixs yahoo.com.br writes:
(BR)
(BR)(/FONT)(FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0")
(BR)(BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px")(side note - too bad I lost most of that time trying to question her
(BR)about all the _wrong_ things, like
(BR)why-dont-you-try-watercolour-painting...)
(BR)Clara
(BR)
(BR)(/BLOCKQUOTE)
(BR)(/FONT)(FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="DECORATIVE" FACE="Tempus Sans ITC" LANG="0")
(BR)Why don't you schedule another talk time with the head teacher and ask all (BR)those questions you didn't get to ask the first time? You will not be (BR)sidetracked by other things and can concentrate on those areas you want to (BR)know more about.
(BR)
(BR)Paula.
(BR)
(BR)(/FONT)(/HTML)
--part1_9a.e55639e.27860e57_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:18:05 -0800
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
)On 4 Jan 2001, at 7:06, Chris Brostrup-Jensen wrote:
)There are generic Rosicrucians, and there is the AMORC, which was founded
)in 1915, in San Jose, California, by H. Spencer Lewis in San Jose.
)Steiner's references to Rosicrucians are probably to the generic
)rosicrucian ideas. I would imagine that he saw AMORC, like Theosophists,
)as folks who have the right idea but are misguided by their inability to
)study those ideas in an objective, scientific way. Unlike Steiner, who
)thought he was a "scientist."
So basically AMORC is just a local chapter of the Rosicrucians.
Are their chapters, like Waldorf, all independent from each other? So one
local chapter may be called AMORC and in another area, it may be called,
say, SDORC? (Kind of like Morning Glory Waldorf School or Mariposa Waldorf
School...)
I noticed that Steiner carried his work further than the Rosicrucians
seemed to, having developed all kinds of plans for different things, like
medicine and schools for kids. The Rocicrucians have written books on
healing, but I haven't heard of Rosicrucian medicine like I have
Anthroposophical medicine. No gardening instructions either.
Steiner was very productive with his time, that is for sure.
Debra
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 19:27:36 +0100
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: on an 'unenlightened' comment
Diana Winters wrote, answering what Chris wrote:
) [Sune:]
(referring to Chris, calling him by my name)
) )The real nub of the issue is how, and how much, Steiner's beliefs
) )affect the kids in real Waldorf classrooms today. It is definitely
...
Do you dream about me too :-)
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 19:28:59 +0100
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
Debra Snell wrote:
) So basically AMORC is just a local chapter of the Rosicrucians.
) Are their chapters, like Waldorf, all independent from each other?
'Waldorf' is not a 'chapter' of the Rosicrucians, neither according to
'Waldorf', nor very probably according to any of the branches of the
Rosicrucian tradition.
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:36:13 -0800
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
) In a message dated 01/04/2001 8:48:46 AM Pacific Standard Time,
)paixs yahoo.com.br writes:
)(side note - too bad I lost most of that time trying to question her
)about all the _wrong_ things, like
)why-dont-you-try-watercolour-painting...) Clara
[Paula]
) Why don't you schedule another talk time with the head teacher and ask
)all those questions you didn't get to ask the first time? You will
)not be sidetracked by other things and can concentrate on those areas you
)want to know more about. Paula.
[Debra]
Hey, there is a list of parent-Waldorf school interview questions that
Lisa, Michael Kopp and I'm not sure who else put together. Anyone know
where that is? I'm sure I saved a copy, but my "In" Box got corrupted and I
had to create a new one. Now if I want to get into my old one, it takes
about 20 minutes of wheel spins before it opens.(sigh)
Can someone else find it and send it to the list again?
Thanks!
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 13:43:07 -0500
From: Newpaul (dingman mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: on an 'unenlightened' comment
Sune Nordwall wrote:
)
) Diana Winters wrote, answering what Chris wrote:
)
) ) [Sune:]
)
) (referring to Chris, calling him by my name)
)
) ) )The real nub of the issue is how, and how much, Steiner's beliefs
) ) )affect the kids in real Waldorf classrooms today. It is definitely
) ...
)
) Do you dream about me too :-)
Newpaul
Sune shouldn't you have used a semicolon rather than a colon on this
statement. Poor Daina she probably suffers from nightmares.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:33:21 -0800
From: "Steve Premo" (steve premofine.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
On 4 Jan 2001, at 10:17, Debra Snell wrote:
) )On 4 Jan 2001, at 7:06, Chris Brostrup-Jensen wrote:
No, that was me.
) )There are generic Rosicrucians, and there is the AMORC, which was founded
) )in 1915, in San Jose, California, by H. Spencer Lewis in San Jose.
)
) )Steiner's references to Rosicrucians are probably to the generic
) )rosicrucian ideas. I would imagine that he saw AMORC, like Theosophists,
) )as folks who have the right idea but are misguided by their inability to
) )study those ideas in an objective, scientific way. Unlike Steiner, who
) )thought he was a "scientist."
)
) So basically AMORC is just a local chapter of the Rosicrucians.
No, AMORC is an international organization. But there are other
rosicrucian organizations as well. I think AMORC considers itself to be
the "true" organization, and the others to be less authentic.
) Are their chapters, like Waldorf, all independent from each other?
AMORC chapters are not independent from each other. But rosicrucianism in
the generic sense is not all based on the teachings of one person as is
Anthroposophy. My impression is that it's a more general set of beliefs
that several people have studied and used as the basis for their
organizations.
) I noticed that Steiner carried his work further than the Rosicrucians
) seemed to, having developed all kinds of plans for different things, like
) medicine and schools for kids. The Rocicrucians have written books on
) healing, but I haven't heard of Rosicrucian medicine like I have
) Anthroposophical medicine. No gardening instructions either.
Right. I see the Rosicrucians as a fraternal organization which is based
on esoteric religious concepts, like the Masons, except that they take
their esoteric concepts more seriously than do rank and file Masons.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"There is a right and a wrong in the Universe and
that distinction is not difficult to make." - Superman
http://www.premofine.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 13:46:34 -0500
From: Newpaul (dingman mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
But there is a relationship Sune. The Rosicrusian's have no need to
establish parochial schools for their kids because they have a worldwide
network of Waldorf Schools already in place.
All the best
Newpaul
Sune Nordwall wrote:
)
) Debra Snell wrote:
)
) ) So basically AMORC is just a local chapter of the Rosicrucians.
) ) Are their chapters, like Waldorf, all independent from each other?
)
) 'Waldorf' is not a 'chapter' of the Rosicrucians, neither according to
) 'Waldorf', nor very probably according to any of the branches of the
) Rosicrucian tradition.
)
) Sune Nordwall
) Stockholm, Sweden
)
) http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
) - a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
) EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
)
) ___________________________________________________________
) T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17
) Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:44:11 -0800
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
)Debra Snell wrote:
)
)) So basically AMORC is just a local chapter of the Rosicrucians.
)) Are their chapters, like Waldorf, all independent from each other?
[Sune]
)'Waldorf' is not a 'chapter' of the Rosicrucians, neither according to
)'Waldorf', nor very probably according to any of the branches of the
)Rosicrucian tradition.
[Debra]
Well, give me a chance to say anything and I can say it ackwardly. :+)
I know that Waldorf schools are not local chapters of the Rosicrucians,
even though I do think Anthroposophy should seek their children to enroll
in Waldorf schools. They would likely love it.
My question was this:
Are the individual chapters of the Rosicrucians independent from each
other? Do they claim that every one is different and independent?
Waldorf schools always tell parents that each Waldorf school is
independent, or different from any other WE school. For years we swallowed
this line, only to discover that Waldorf is Waldorf, no matter where it
springs up. There are more similarities than differences, right down to the
playground bullies who aren't handled.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 19:48:45 +0100
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: on an 'unenlightened' comment
dingman mindspring.com wrote:
) Sune shouldn't you have used a semicolon rather than a colon on this
) statement. Poor Daina she probably suffers from nightmares.
Sorry:
;;;;;-)
But I seriously doubt she suffers from nightmares in relation to me
popping up in one or other dream of hers, if that is the case ...
:-) ?
;-) ?
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 09:29:00 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
Chris, you wrote,
)Rose - cross - rosy - crucis - Rosicrucian. The link is there, although
)I don't pretend to know what it signifies other than a very important
)influence/source for Steiner.
Source. He claimed that Anthroposophy succeeded Rosicrucianism, i.e. was the
"new Rosicrucianism."
-Dan
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 15:30:08 -0500
From: "althaea warwick.net" (althaea warwick.net)
Subject: Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
I am new to this list and have been reading for a few days. I thought this a
good time to jump in. As I understood it, and as I was told by someone
familiar with Steiner, was that he WAS a Rosicrucian.
althaea
Debra Snell wrote:
) Just before Sharon left for the holidays, a big discussion took place after
) I called Waldorf schools Occult Mystery schools. Robert Flannery made fun
) of my term and questioned my credibility (again). Sharon, a bright
) researcher for PLANS, produced what I thought was damning evidence to back
) up my assertion.
)
) I finally got a breather today, after long term guests departed, to take
) this thread on again - hopefully just in time for Sharon to re-join us.
)
) While touring The Rosicrucian Museum in San Jose, CA over Thanksgiving
) holidays, I grabbed a free 32 page booklet called 'Mystery of Life'. Right
) off the bat, the booklet dispels any notion that The Rosicrucian Order, or
) AMORC, which stands for 'Ancient and Mystical Order Rosae Crucis' is
) religious. They, like Anthroposophy, encourages members to continue going
) to their same church, but use AMORC to "find a greater appreciation of the
) mystical principals underlying their individual religious and philosophical
) beliefs."
)
) AMORC is hauntingly similar to Anthroposophy. It is a complete system. The
) booklet, in part, says:
)
) The Rosicrucian system is unique - it provides a foundation that ties
) together all of the different aspects of metaphysical study, and
) demonstrates their connectedness. To our knowledge, it's the only system
) that does this. Understanding the natural laws that govern all realms -
) physical, mental, emotional, psychic, and spiritual - leads to true
) prosperity and peace of mind. ... [T]he Rosencrucian Order provides a
) systematic approach to the study of higher wisdom that empowers you to find
) the answers to your questions about the workings of the universe, the
) interconnectedness of all life, your higher purpose, and how it all fits
) together."
)
) (Sound familiar to any Anthroposophists here?)
)
) The booklet describes the progression of the teaching which includes the
) course study books. First are the introductory lessons, and six books
) later, one may then move on to the 'First Atrium'. There is another set of
) books to read before moving through the second and third 'Atriums.'
)
) )From the booklet:
)
) " ...having completed the lessons of the Neophyte section, you stand at an
) important milestone in your progress along the mystical path."
)
) One can now move to the 'Temple Section,' and six degrees and *75* (!!!$$)
) books later, one will have a 'Ninth Temple Degree' that "gives you the
) opportunity to utilize the highest metaphysical powers in practical ways to
) affect positive conditions in your environment and your life in accordance
) with the greatest good."
)
) None of the book titles listed throughout the course study list the
) authors, but a few of the books beg the question:
)
) "I wonder who wrote _that_ book?"
)
) In the Third Atrium, one of the required books is called 'Reincarnation and
) Karma.' (Remember, no authors are listed.)
)
) I drug out my Anthroposophic Press Catalog. There are some
) very interesting comparisons between AMORC course study and the Waldorf
) Teacher Training course study. How about 'Reincarnation of the Soul.' Sound
) familiar to anyone reading Steiner or even just The Anthro Press Catalog?
) One must read/study 'Reincarnation of the Soul' to become a 'Third Temple
) Degree' in a self-confessed mystery school.
)
) Anther book on the AMORC course study list is one that Sharon may be
) interested in. It's called 'Mystical Power of Vowel Sounds and Mantras.'
) (err, could it be, err, Eurythmy?)
)
) Just as a quick comparison, The Anthroposophic Press offers this title:
)
) 'Eurythmy as Visable Speech' (by guess who?? RS, himself!)
)
) I wonder who copied who here? Next time I go visit my hubby's Mother, I'll
) see if I can find out when AMORC's book was written... (Wanna place bets on
) who wrote the seemingly similar books first? Do you think it was Steiner or
) the AMORC author?)
)
) Listen to a few more comparisons, while you remember that there are 75 book
) titles listed in the AMORC booklet. Ready?
)
) )From the Anthroposophic Press Catalog:
) Just for fun, I'm going to use only the book titles written by Rudolf
) Steiner, OK?
)
) AMORC:
) Cosmic Consciousness
) Cosmic Purpose of Life
)
) Anthro Press:
) Cosmic and Human Metamorphoses
) Cosmic Christ
) Cosmic Memory
)
) This just goes on and on like this throughout all 75 books listed in the
) Temple Degree course study. Every single book title sounds very familiar to
) anyone who has read any Anthroposophy at all. I'll go on, but remember,
) this list id from the AMORC, NOT The Anthro Press Catalog.
)
) AMORC:
) Incarnation of the Soul
) Mastery of Karma
) Reincarnation of the Soul
) Memory of Past Incarnations
) Universal Soul and the Human Soul
) Help to the Dying, Before and After Death
) Good and Evil and Free Will
) Human Consciousness and Cosmic Consciousness
) Law of the Triangle
) Symbols - Natural, Artificial, and Mystical
) Material Alchemy
) Transistion of the Soul
) Memory of Past Incarnations
) The Four Principles: Earth, Water, Air and Fire
)
) OK, for those of you not too familiar with The Anthroposophical Press
) offerings, I'll help you out.
)
) Anthro Press/Rudolf Steiner:
) Reincarnation and Karma
) Reincarnation and Immortality
) Life Between Death and Rebirth
) Universal Human
) How to Know Higher Worlds
) Christianity as Mystical Fact
) Egyptian Myths and Mysteries
) Rosecrucian Esotericism
)
) Like I said, it just goes on an on. Both Anthroposophy and AMORC offers
) answers for all of life's questions, and they sound very similar.
)
) Waldorf as occult mystery schools? Not too far of a stretch.
) Debra
)
)
)
) ___________________________________________________________
) T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17
) Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 15:39:55 -0500
From: "althaea warwick.net" (althaea warwick.net)
Subject: Re: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
I would love to get my hands on that as I am going to an open house for two
schools this month. One at the end of next week and one the following week. I
would love to have some questions to ask them, more than I am coming up with by
reading this list and the PLANS website. Thanks
althaea
Debra Snell wrote:
) ) In a message dated 01/04/2001 8:48:46 AM Pacific Standard Time,
) )paixs yahoo.com.br writes:
) )(side note - too bad I lost most of that time trying to question her
) )about all the _wrong_ things, like
) )why-dont-you-try-watercolour-painting...) Clara
)
) [Paula]
)
) ) Why don't you schedule another talk time with the head teacher and ask
) )all those questions you didn't get to ask the first time? You will
) )not be sidetracked by other things and can concentrate on those areas you
) )want to know more about. Paula.
)
) [Debra]
)
) Hey, there is a list of parent-Waldorf school interview questions that
) Lisa, Michael Kopp and I'm not sure who else put together. Anyone know
) where that is? I'm sure I saved a copy, but my "In" Box got corrupted and I
) had to create a new one. Now if I want to get into my old one, it takes
) about 20 minutes of wheel spins before it opens.(sigh)
)
) Can someone else find it and send it to the list again?
) Thanks!
)
)
)
) ___________________________________________________________
) T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17
) Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 12:57:12 -0800
From: "Steve Premo" (steve premofine.com)
Subject: Re: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
On 4 Jan 2001, at 12:39, althaea warwick.net wrote:
) I would love to get my hands on that as I am going to an open house for =
two
) schools this month. One at the end of next week and one the following
) week. I would love to have some questions to ask them, more than I am
) coming up with by reading this list and the PLANS website. Thanks
Here is a list of things I wrote up to ask my son's teacher about a couple=
of years ago:
CONCERNS ABOUT WALDORF EDUCATION
I disagree with much of what I have heard that children are
taught in Waldorf schools. Specific teachings that are contrary to
current scientific knowledge or belief include:
Insects are related to plants;
The elements are earth, water, fire and air;
The heart not a pump, or circulatory system is
described, but the role of the heart is not
explained;
Planets influence growth of plants;
Plants are like a man upside down;
Goethean vs Newtonian color theory;
The body is made up of the nervesense system, the
metabolicmuscular system, and the rhythmic
system;
There are 12 senses, corresponding to signs of the
zodiac;
There are four kingdoms of nature, mineral, plant,
animal, and man;
Species were specially created, rather than evolving
from one another, and spiritual beings were
the creators;
Left-handedness is a condition that should be
=93corrected;=94
The "ancients" had powers and knowledge lost to us,
such as alchemy and the ability to see things
outside the physical realm;
Religious mythology is taught as ancient history, or
the theosophical framework for ancient
history is taught as fact.
The ancient Egyptians moved the huge, heavy, stone
Pyramid blocks with sound power.
That there is a relationship between the dactylic
hexameter of Greek epic/heroic poetry, as in
the Odyssey, and the socalled "Platonic
Year" (a hypothesis by Plato and others
about the precession of the equinoxes over
26,000 years) and the number of
breaths/hearbeats in a day.
Astrology is taught in the higher grades.
Also, I have heard of disturbing events at other schools,
including:
Parents being asked to leave the school
when they
questioned or objected to aspects of Waldorf
education or anthroposophy.
Kids being inadequately supervised on the
playground to prevent bullying and
accidents, on the theory that angels will
watch out for them and/or that whatever happens is
a result of their "karma."
Dunce caps being used.
Finally, I have heard of child studies being performed to
determine the child=92s karma and destiny, without the
involvement or knowledge of the parents. Shouldn=92t the
parents be involved, or at least have knowledge of, the results
of studies being done on their children?
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"There is a right and a wrong in the Universe and
that distinction is not difficult to make." - Superman
http://www.premofine.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 13:09:08 -0800
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Questions to ask a Waldorf School
althaea,
I found it and here it is. Many thanks to Michael Kopp and Lisa Ercolano
for their hard work!
Debra
****
* Ask to see mainlesson books from several grades, and from several
children within the same class (on the same subject.) This way, it will
become obvious that if the mainlesson books are almost identical (which
they often are!), that the children are merely copying whatever the teacher
writes or draws from the blackboard.
* Make sure to read the PLANS web site and all it contains. Pay particular
attention to the articles.
* Do you believe in reincarnation? Does you want your child taught by a
system that is based -- pedagogically, as well as spiritually -- on a
belief in reincarnation?
* Do you understand Steiner's 7-year cycles of child development (in which
children below the age of 14 are not allowed to think abstractly -- even if
they do so naturally?) Children below the age of 14, according to Steiner,
should not form independent thoughts or theories, but should instead learn
to trust the authority of the teacher and to think as he/she thinks.
* Do you believe that ALL technology is bad for kids? Sure, we all think
kids watch too much garbage on TV, and little kids shouldn't spend their
time staring at computers.
But if you ask, Waldorf teachers will tell you that computers are not
good for children because children cannot understand how computers work.
They will tell you that in the Waldorf high school, the students are then
old enough to learn to build a computer and to use one.
What they do NOT tell you is that they believe that the computer is
``AHRIMANIC -- connected with the Anthroposophic ``god of darkness -- and
can sap the child's will and actually ``suck out the child's soul.
* Do you want your child will be strongly influenced by the same adult for
eight years? Do you understand that if your child develops a dislike for
the teacher, Steiner says it's the child's karma, and it will take curative
eurythmy to work it out, and no, the child can't change teachers because
the karma has to be worked out with the first teacher? (And besides, at
most Waldorf schools, there is only one class for each grade.)
* Do you know that the creation story your child will learn isn't even in
the same ballpark with the creationist one of the Christian
fundamentalists, despite the school saying it's
"Christian-something-or-other"? Are you aware that they will be taught that
the creators of the world/universe are 11 or
12 spirits, a pantheistic "Elohim," and not a monotheistic "God?"
* Do you know that -- eventually -- your child will be taught some
science that is NOT the accepted science of the 21st century? Students in
Waldorf schools learn Steiner science -- which flies in the face of facts
proven again and again by numerous other famous scientists and thinkers,
including Albert Einstein and Isaac Newton.
=20
*At a Waldorf school, children learn, for instance that color comes from
the clash of darkness with light (a erroneous idea of Steiner's based on
Goethe.) Are you aware that the foundation of this Steiner science is
occult spiritualism, not real science?
*At Waldorf, students studying chemistry are taught that the four elements
are: earth, air, fire and water, which they learn correspond with various
signs of the Zodiac.
* Do you understand that Steiner's curriculum hasn't changed in 75 years,
doesn't take account of the earlier maturation of kids and that it's almost
all based on spiritual science premises that Steiner made up ?
* Ask the school for a complete _written_ explanation of the curriculum,
for all the grades at the school. It should be as detailed as your state's
curriculum. Even if it's legally allowably different, it should show the
same rigor and depth.
* Ask the school for a complete _written_ explanation of how Anthroposophy
fits into the curriculum, and what things in the curriculum -- such as late
reading, no black crayons in the early years, no stimulation of the
intellect until post-puberty, Goethean science, etc. -- are based on
Anthroposophy or spiritual science. Ask if there is any modern educational
research to back Steiner's specific educational theories up. (There isn't.)
* Ask the school for a complete _written_ explanation of Steiner's child
development model, in plain language, and for modern scientific educational
research to back this up. (There isn't any.) Ask for an explanation of "The
=46our Temperments" and how each temperment relates to physical
characteristics ("melancholid" children are usually tall and pale;
"cholerics" have a square jaw, etc.) Ask what modern research supports the
use of this "tool" that dates from before the Middle Ages. (There isn't
any.)
* Ask the school for a complete _written_ policy statement on parent/school
relationships, and the school=BCs contractual agreement on it: for instance,
what happens if a parent or parents disagree with something the school or
teacher or curriculum does, and wants it changed or wants his child not to
partake in it? If you withdraw your child before the end of the year, will
you have to continue to pay tuition? (Check into tuition insurance.)
* Ask for a _written_ statement regarding the use of Anthroposophical
"child studies" (or any other type of assessment of the child), requiring
that it divulge if speculation on the child's former life or lives is
included, either privately or formally; requiring that there be an
agreed-to, complete, written record of any assessments; requiring that
parents have the right to be present during such sessions, whether they
involve the child or not.
That's it for the list made by my acquaintance. I would add a few more
items, including:
* Ask for a faculty list that contains information about the credentials
and degrees obtained by each teacher. Pay attention to the wording of the
listings (if, indeed, there is such a list -- not all schools have them!) A
statement that a teacher "attended" a particular university or college does
not mean the teacher earned a degree. Carefully check out what the Waldorf
school teacher training programs involve -- which is mostly study of
Steiner and Anthroposophy.
* Are you aware that your child will be taught that fairies and gnomes
actually exist, and that many of the teachers (at least those who are
Anthroposophists) believe that these elemental beings are real, and even
more, are very important?
* Are you aware that the famous Waldorf 'wet-on-wet" watercolor painting is
actually a spiritual science exercise, aimed at cultivating the child's
soul/spirit? Are you aware that the amorphous quality of the images created
by this wet technique is intended to frustrate the child's ability to draw
with LINES -- which Steiner purported were remnants of "past lives" and
thus should be done away with (except in form drawing, another spiritual
science exercise)?
-- Lisa Ercolano
=09
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 116
-- Topica Digest -- issue 117
RE: Questions to ask a Waldorf School
By faiman jlc.net
Re: Questions to ask a Waldorf School
By Speckraybill aol.com
Re: Questions to ask a Waldorf School
By Speckraybill aol.com
RE: Racism definition
By faiman jlc.net
Re: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
By dingman mindspring.com
Re: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
RE: (Faiman) Questions to ask a Waldorf School
By paixs yahoo.com.br
Re: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
By soma mwt.net
RE: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: on an 'unenlightened' comment
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
By soma mwt.net
RE: Racism definition
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: on an 'unenlightened' comment
By dingman mindspring.com
Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: on an 'unenlightened' comment
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
By Gary GoodWinter.com
Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
By Gary GoodWinter.com
racism in the kindy/was racism definition
By momof2gals mindspring.com
Re: Racism definition
By faiman jlc.net
Re: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
By Rechomba cs.com
Re: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
By Rechomba cs.com
Re: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
By Rechomba cs.com
Re: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
By Rechomba cs.com
RE: racism in the kindy/was racism definition
By paixs yahoo.com.br
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4-Jan-2001 22:30:35 GMT
From: Neil Faiman (faiman jlc.net)
Subject: RE: Questions to ask a Waldorf School
Deby Snell (quoting Lisa Ercolano):
) * Do you want your child will be strongly influenced by the same adult
) for
) eight years? Do you understand that if your child develops a dislike for
) the teacher, Steiner says it's the child's karma, and it will take
) curative
) eurythmy to work it out, and no, the child can't change teachers because
) the karma has to be worked out with the first teacher? (And besides, at
) most Waldorf schools, there is only one class for each grade.)
Rudolf Steiner:
During one of my visits to the Waldorf School I was told of a boy in one
of the classes who was causing great difficulties. He had committed all
kinds of misdemeanors and none of the teachers of this class was able to
deal with him. I asked for the boy to be sent to me because first I
wanted to find out the root of the trouble. You will admit that in many
other schools such a boy would have received corporal punishment or
possibly less drastic forms of punishment. Well, I examined the boy
carefully and came to the conclusion that he should be moved up into the
next class above. This change was to be his punishment. I have not
heard of any complaints since. His new class teacher has confirmed that
the boy has even become a model pupil and that everything seems to be in
order now. This, after all, is what really matters. The important
thing is that one penetrates the very soul and nature of the child. The
cause of the trouble was that there was no human contact between him and
his teacher and since he was intelligent enough to cope with the work of
the class above him -- there was no parallel class in his case -- the
only right thing was to move him up. Had we put him down into the next
lower class, we would have ruined that child. (Rudolf Steiner, _Soul
Economy and Waldorf Education_, pp 136-37. Anthroposophic Press, 1986.
)From a lecture given in Dornach, December 30, 1921.)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 17:42:15 EST
From: Speckraybill aol.com
Subject: Re: Questions to ask a Waldorf School
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In a message dated 01/04/2001 2:31:05 PM Pacific Standard Time,
faiman jlc.net writes:
) Rudolf Steiner:
)
) During one of my visits to the Waldorf School I was told of a boy in one
) of the classes who was causing great difficulties.........
Just how often does this actually happen? Is this not a major exception?
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(HTML)(FONT FACE=arial,helvetica)(FONT SIZE=3 FAMILY="DECORATIVE" FACE="Tempus Sans ITC" LANG="0")In a message dated 01/04/2001 2:31:05 PM Pacific Standard Time, (BR)faiman jlc.net writes:
(BR)
(BR)(/FONT)(FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0")
(BR)(BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px")Rudolf Steiner:
(BR)
(BR)During one of my visits to the Waldorf School I was told of a boy in one
(BR)of the classes who was causing great difficulties.........(/FONT)(FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="DECORATIVE" FACE="Tempus Sans ITC" LANG="0")(/BLOCKQUOTE)
(BR)
(BR)Just how often does this actually happen? Is this not a major exception?
(BR)(/FONT)(/HTML)
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 17:49:48 EST
From: Speckraybill aol.com
Subject: Re: Questions to ask a Waldorf School
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Also, depending on the school and the personnel, you must realize that the
answers you get may be only partial or superficial answers and may not
represent the whole truth. Be very careful and wary about what you choose to
believe and only believe what they can factually support.
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(HTML)(FONT FACE=arial,helvetica)(FONT SIZE=3 FAMILY="DECORATIVE" FACE="Tempus Sans ITC" LANG="0")Also, depending on the school and the personnel, you must realize that the (BR)answers you get may be only partial or superficial answers and may not (BR)represent the whole truth. Be very careful and wary about what you choose to (BR)believe and only believe what they can factually support.
(BR)
(BR)(/FONT)(/HTML)
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4-Jan-2001 22:51:52 GMT
From: Neil Faiman (faiman jlc.net)
Subject: RE: Racism definition
Chris Brostrup-Jensen wrote:
) ... But
) clearly racism is an issue with Steiner and there
) seems to be a fair number of experiences floating
) around that suggest it is an issue with the schools
) as well.
Chris,
I'm really surprised that you've gotten this impression. Given the
eagerness with which *any* flaw or failing of Waldorf education is
trumpeted here, I have always been amazed by the virtually total absence
of accounts of racist teaching or practice in Waldorf schools (with the
striking exception of the notorious Dutch schools). When you asked for
concrete accounts of actual practice in Waldorf schools back in
November, you got precisely the following two examples. Are there
really "a fair number of experiences" floating around?
Regards,
Neil Faiman
------------------------------------------------------
(1) from Deborah Kelly:
) The most obvious racism in the local Waldorf school is
) New Ageism and it is quite heavy among the Waldorfers
) I know here.
(2) from Sharon:
) In kindergarten and first grade, my daughter was not allowed to use
) black
) or brown crayons. When I asked the first grade teacher how a black child
) would draw themselves, the teacher replied that she would help them
) "smudge" their color from appropriate colors of crayons. I said that it
) seemed racist and unfair. She said that it wasn't racist, but color
) theory.
) In a later grade when black was permitted, my daughter was made to
) redraw
) Eve's hair (from the Creation myth) yellow, her original choice had been
) black. She was
) often told stories about blond haired heroes. I sensed an outdated view
) and
) asked about it. It seemed racist to me, (this was before I had read any
) Steiner and before I found the PLANS site.)
)
) I once went to a puppet workshop at the Milwaukee Waldorf school.
) Several
) Waldorf teachers went on about not using the color black in puppets as
) it
) was a bad color to use. I said I didn't agree and we discussed it. They
) said
) that it represented darkness and evil. I said that black existed in
) nature
) and wasn't evil. They said that there was no black in nature. Off the
) top of
) my head I mentioned a black cat. They said that black cats are not black
) but
) rather brown. I said that it was a racist concept that black is evil.
) They
) started to get angry so I kept quiet.
)
) At our school the teacher did not like the fact that I sometimes dressed
) my
) child in black, so I stopped. Some people at the school did not like
) the
) fact that I wore
) a lot of black. In my opinion, this kind of thinking stems fromSteiner's
) esoteric doctrine of dualism concerning light and darkness and the
) battling
) forces of good and evil, which inevitably extends to blond and dark
) humans.
) I don't think like this.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 19:05:15 -0500
From: Newpaul (dingman mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
althaea warwick.net wrote:
)
) I would love to get my hands on that as I am going to an open house for two
) schools this month. One at the end of next week and one the following week. I
) would love to have some questions to ask them, more than I am coming up with by
) reading this list and the PLANS website. Thanks
)
) althaea
)
Questions for Waldorf. From Newpaul proud parent of a son who refuses
to do eurythmy because he says it is an occult exercise.
What is the school's official statement about Waldorf's relationship
to Anthroposophy?
Is this Waldorf school nonsectarian?
Why aren't there any American flags in the classrooms? Are the children
taught the pledge of allegiance?
How many teachers have state certified teaching credentials?
Why are the children not allowed to use black crayons?
Why are they not allowed to draw faces on their human figures grades 1-3?
What is the significance of the Rainbow Bridge?
Why are the children classified by temperament?
Why are only teachers who have been trained in Waldorf teacher training
schools allowed to teach ?
If anthroposophy is not taught in the classroom, why is it so necessary
for teachers to have so much occult training? Check out the teacher
training curriculum on the plans site in the articles section.
Waldorf Ed claims to teach my kids how to think,
What are some examples of lessons that teach the kids to use their
critic thinking skills?
(There are none)
If you are in a class situation you can liven up the discussion with
this question.
Eugene Schwartz former head of teacher training at Sunbridge and author
of the Waldorf Teacher's Survival Guide" says:
"Most of that which contributes to our work as teachers, preparation
work, artistic work, even meditative work, is under the guardianship
of Lucifer. We can become great teachers under his supervision,
for he is responsible for much that has blossomed in the unfolding of
civilization and culture in the past."
Schwartz, Eugene. The Waldorf Teacher's Survival Guide. Fair Oaks, CA:
Rudolf Steiner College Press, 1992, p. 54.
Would you explain how Lucifer influences the teachers? Are you
satanists? Why should I trust my children to an educational system that
seeks the guardianship of Lucifer? Why was I not told upfront about
this weird occult belief system?
Was Rudolph Steiner really a scientist or a mystical occult cult
leader? Is it true that all of his scientific discoveries were made
through meditation in the spirit world?
What sort of resources do you have to assist my child if he has trouble
reading or needs special ed assistance?
What if I discover in 4th or 5th grade that Waldorf doesn't work for me.
Will my child be too far behind other curriculums to change schools
without serious difficulty?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 01:54:38 +0100
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
Steve Premo wrote:
=
) Here is a list of things I wrote up to ask my son's teacher about a cou=
ple
) of years ago:
What did the teacher answer?
=
) CONCERNS ABOUT WALDORF EDUCATION
) =
) I disagree with much of what I have heard that children are
) taught in Waldorf schools. Specific teachings that =
you think
) are contrary to
) current scientific knowledge or belief include:
) =
) Insects are related to plants;
They are; insects take part in and are a necessary part of the
reproduction of many plants, living in symbioses with them and feeding
on them as part of this symbiotic relation. Understanding their relation
to the 'seed'/reproduction-process of plants (as related to the flowers,
where the plants also most distinctly 'evaporates' into small parts;
seeds and smells) and in relation to their role in the disintegration
and breaking down of nature into basic organic components reflects their
nature well in general, I think.
=
) The elements are earth, water, fire and air;
'Elements' in the traditional sense 'are' what since long back in
history (for at least 1300 years since Greek Antiquity) was called
'earth', 'water', 'air' and 'fire'. It is the basic term in the history
of ideas, when describing the basic components of the world as it for
very long was experienced as something that 'lived' between the basic
touch experiences of degrees of warmth and humidity (see my article on
'Science' at my site, as also as some of many examples, for example
http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/ch10.htm and
http://philosophy.wadsworth.com/mitchell_wisdom/sample_ch.html).
A more 'atoms'-oriented understanding and perspective on substances has
later developed during the last hundreds of years, leading to the
development and use of the term 'chemical elements' to describe basic
substances out of a perspective of the number of protons in the 'core'
of their 'atoms'.
'Elements' and 'atoms' constitute the two basic perspectives of
substances, the first more reflecting the dynamic aspects of matter, the
second more reflecting possible static aspects of matter.
In waldorf schools, that through the grades tries to mediate an
understanding of the development of humanity, one in the lower grades
mediates an understanding of the 'elements', the basic dynamic aspects
of matter, corresponding to an earlier perspective on man and nature.
In the upper grades this in chemistry is developed gradually into an
ever more differentiated understanding of the nature of substances from
first a chemical perspective, out of basic chemical processes, leading
finally to an understanding of the character of the different groups of
chemical elements as they are reflected in 'The periodic system' of
chemical elements.
=
) Planets influence growth of plants;
) The body is made up of the nerve=17sense system, the
) metabolic=17muscular system, and the rhythmic
) system;
That is the basic reflection at the macroscopic level of the
polarization of eggs of at least vertebrates and their development via
the differentiation into endoderm, mesoderm and exoderm contributing to
the basic components of the metabolic-muscular and -reproductory system,
the heart as the internal centre of the rhythmic system, and the nervous
system.
) The heart not a pump, or circulatory system is
) described, but the role of the heart is not
) explained;
The role of the heart in the human organism is very complex, as one of
the most developed organs sensing and regulating the rhythmic life of
the body. The picture of the heart as a 'pump' describes one aspect of
this role, its 'will'-aspect, in a very simplified way. =
What the discussion of the heart in WE primarily is concerned with is
doing justice to the complexity of the role of the heart in the human
body and in human life, of which the picture of it as a mechanical
'pump' only in a very simplified way reflects one aspect.
) Plants are like a man upside down;
In wo/man, the basic 'warm' and 'warmth producing'
metabolic/reproductive system constitutes the spatially 'lower' part of
the human body, and the 'cold' pole of man is his head, as the centre of
the nervous system. (In my childhood; quite unanthroposophic, it was an
expression among kids: "What are you? Stupid in the root?") In plants
this 'warm'- 'cold' polarity of the organism is reversed, with its
reproductive system turned upwards instead of downwards.
=
) Goethean vs Newtonian color theory;
=
They reflect two complementary perspectives on colour; Newton looking at
it from the perspective of how some aspects of colour can be described
if treating light as idealized 'rays' while Goethe mainly describes
other aspects of light and colour, from the perspective of how they
appear in nature and their nature in relation to human experience.
) There are 12 senses, =
That is probably not taught as such in general at waldorf schools, if
not as a description of _one_ possible perspective of some aspects of
our sensory processes, reflecting basic qualities of the richness of our
sense experience, when describing the anatomy and physiology of the
senses.
What Steiner described as a =
) corresponding to signs of the zodiac;
=
That's purely abstract and does not belong in waldorf education as
something taught to students.
) There are four kingdoms of nature, mineral, plant,
) animal, and man;
That's the traditional basic way of looking at it and reflects one basic
structure of the natural world (see my article on 'science' at my site). =
=
) Species were specially created, rather than evolving
) from one another, and spiritual beings were
) the creators;
This description mixes anthroposophy with WE. The basic species of the
different groups of organisms in nature are described in their nature
and character in WE and put in relation to one another from that
perspective. Darwinism as the presently dominant view of understanding
and interpreting the relation of species is probably described and
discussed in most waldorf schools in the upper grades.
I very much doubt that the view that species were specially created and
that it was done by spiritual beings is described as a or the natural
view is taught at Waldorf schools, except as _one_ view of evolution,
held by some.
=
) Left-handedness is a condition that should be
) =93corrected;=94
=2E.. that probably was the dominant view in general in education until
not very long ago. It was when I went to (public) school. To the extent
that there are well-reasoned motives for not trying to 'correct' it,
they should be considered in WE.
=
) The "ancients" had powers and knowledge lost to us,
) such as alchemy and the ability to see things
) outside the physical realm;
That's how they describe themselves. WE is focused on letting the pupils
experience how people and cultures through human cultural history
experienced and expressed _themselves_.
) Religious mythology is taught as ancient history, or
) the theosophical framework for ancient
) history is taught as fact.
The 'theosophical framework for ancient history' is not 'taught as
fact'. A number of the central ancient cultures of humanity, the
classical Indian, Persian and Egyptian cultures, the cultures of the
'fertile half moon'(?) and the Greek-Roman cultures are described out of
central expressions of them, in mythology, art, and litterature, as
cultural expressed of them by themselves.
=
) The ancient Egyptians moved the huge, heavy, stone
) Pyramid blocks with sound power.
) =
) That there is a relationship between the dactylic
) hexameter of Greek epic/heroic poetry, as in
) the Odyssey, and the so=17called "Platonic
) Year" (a hypothesis by Plato and others
) about the precession of the equinoxes over
) 26,000 years) and the number of
) breaths/hearbeats in a day.
Too complex to discuss here. See archives.
=
) Astrology is taught in the higher grades.
'Astrology' in the sense of 'how to make horoscopes' does not as such
belong to the curriculum of WS', I think, except possibly as an
extra-curricular study of how those who do do it, if chosen by the
students as a special study and done outside the normal course.
'Astrology' in the sense of describing how the star world was viewed for
very long in different cultures, in terms of structuring the experience
of it into twelve 'signs' or 'pictures', and how one viewed the
elementary qualities of those 'pictures' or 'signs' is one part of
understanding our cultural development. =
The stress in WE is on letting the pupils experience _how the different
cultures experienced and expressed themselves_, not primarily on telling
the pupils what they _shall_ think about them or how they _shall_ judge
them. That's part of the reasoning process with the students, learning
them to view things from different perspectives, with not always _one_
being the self evident in all instances.
=
) Also, I have heard of disturbing events at other schools,
) including:
) =
) Parents being asked to leave the school=0Ewhen they
) questioned or objected to aspects of Waldorf
) education or anthroposophy.
If parents _seriously_ question or object to basic ways of working in
_any_ pedagogical or other tradition, which they have chosen freely,
they probably have made the wrong choice of school or tradition and
'should' try to find a school that more corresponds to their views.
=
) Kids being inadequately supervised on the
) playground to prevent bullying and
) accidents, on the theory that angels will
) watch out for them and/or that whatever happens is
) a result of their "karma."
Carrying the view to any form of extreme is irresponsible. The grown ups
in the end are those responsible for what happens to children in their
care and can blame noone else for those mishappenings among children
that they as grownups could have prevented and that the children expect
them as grownups to do.
=
) Dunce caps being used.
If I understand 'dunce caps' correctly, I think in _any_ way using
something as 'dunce caps' as making anybody (child) into a 'scapegoat'
can only be done in a restricted playful way and if fully aware of what
the process of 'scapegoating' can mean, from the perspective of a child
being the object of it.
'Scapegoating' is today a global social process, polarizing those who
'have' from those who 'don't have'.
) Finally, I have heard of child studies being performed to
) determine the child=92s karma and destiny, without the
) involvement or knowledge of the parents. Shouldn=92t the
) parents be involved, or at least have knowledge of, the results
) of studies being done on their children?
This is moving in a sensitive gray zone, I think, difficult to discuss
in short in a more meaningful way.
Regards,
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5-Jan-2001 01:09:55 GMT
From: Clara Paix (paixs yahoo.com.br)
Subject: RE: (Faiman) Questions to ask a Waldorf School
Neil Faiman wrote:
) Rudolf Steiner:
)
) During one of my visits to the Waldorf School I was told of a boy in one
)
) of the classes who was causing great difficulties. (...)
Clara:
A few thoughts:
1) Ok - great insight from RS. Now - are WS teachers informed of that
passage? If so, why does their action differ so widely from the example
cited above?
When people (Debra, Lisa) say on their "questions" that karma is given
as an explanation on why students shouldn¥t change teachers, it is not
on account of vivid imagination. It is a fact that this happens in WSs -
I¥ve seen it, as have many of the others - haven¥t you?
In my experience as a WS student I¥ve heard of only one case of grade
skipping (a new st who had been misplaced and skipped after one month).
We had paralel classes; and I¥ve _never_ heard of anyone changing class
teachers. How many of you have?
2) All things even, the passage does not say much in favour of the class
teacher system. After all, a problem like the one described in it could
only have happened _in a class teacher system_. If the boy in question
had a variety of teachers to relate to in a given term, or even, if the
teacher in "command" was a different one each term, the problem wouldn¥t
be that serious.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 02:28:44 +0100
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
See I was incomplete in what I started to write as:
Steve:
) ) There are 12 senses,
Me:
) That is probably not taught as such in general at waldorf schools, if
) not as a description of _one_ possible perspective of some aspects of
) our sensory processes, reflecting basic qualities of the richness of our
) sense experience, when describing the anatomy and physiology of the
) senses.
)
) What Steiner described as a
...
What I started writing was:
'What Steiner described as a 'twelvefoldness' of our sense experience,
is s similar description in relation the the senses, as Kant described
in relation to our thinking, when he described what he thought of as the
12 types of thought categories that according to him determined how we
percieved the world
(http://www-philosophy.ucdavis.edu/kant/category.htm)'
As for the typos, I hope they are understandable.
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 20:02:34 -0800
From: soma (soma mwt.net)
Subject: Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
Chris wrote:
) ) Debra then goes on to provide a bundle of examples of the similarities in
) ) titles (and presumably concepts) between anthroposophical and Rosicrucian
) ) books.
) )
) ) I've already noticed a number of Steiner references to Rosicrucians and
) ) their ideas. It seems that they preceded him and must have affected his
) ) own ideas very substantially.
Sharon:
Steiner was a Rosicrucian and he promoted that path as occult "truth". He used
Rosicrucian ideas in his Anthroposophy and his Waldorf schools. Indeed, Steiner
was *heavily* influenced by Rosicrucianism. Francis Yates excludes later
movements calling themselves 'Rosicrucian' but she sheds light on some of the
earlier magicians that influenced Steiner. You would probably find Yate's book
very interesting, and a pleasure to read. I found her books to be very helpful
in understanding Steiner and occult science.
Yates reconstructs the period between the Renaissance and the so-called
scientific revolution of the seventeenth century. Her book documents the
Renaissance Hermetic-Cabalist tradition as it absorbed alchemy, another Hermetic
tradition. The book shows how the Rosicrucian manifestos are a combination of
magic, Cabala, and alchemy. (I can see that anthroposophy is also a combination
of this and more!) Yates feels that Rosicrucianism was an important phase in
European thought which has been forgotten by historians. She insists that the
magician John Dee is a very important influence behind the Elizabethan
Renaissance, and she writes that Dee is the typical magus who combined Magic,
Cabala, and Alchemy which resulted in the world view where advancing science was
strangely mixed with angelology.
When I read Yates' book I kept thinking that I was reading about Steiner,
although I prefer the quaint Renaissance magicians to Steiner. I was made
acutely aware that history repeats itself! (The Rosicrucians had critics much
like the Waldorf critics!) Yates struggles with the evasive tradition of
occultism as she carefully attempts to piece things together. Her book, "The
Rosicrucian Enlightenment" begins with the marriage of Princess Elizabeth with
the Elector Palatinate.....this history is a "must read" as part of your Steiner
education Chris!
I also ***highly*** recommend John Fletcher's book, "Art Inspired by Rudolf
Steiner", please get it and treat yourself to photographs of the inside of
Steiner's Rosicrucian temples. (Complete with Solomon's red and blue pillars,
zodiacs, apocalyptic seals, 7 pillars representing planets, golden pentagrams,
red and blue for in breathing and out breathing, etc., etc. A must see, one of
my favorite Anthro books!) I ended up buying this book because I couldn't
believe my eyes when I first saw it. Unfortunately, when my copy arrived I was a
bit disappointed because the book I had originally seen (from inter library
loans) had a funny little painting of Sterner and Christian Rosencreutz standing
on either side of the "blue alter". My version has been edited for some reason,
too bad.
Sincerely,
Sharon
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 02:31:36 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
[Clara]
)When I first thought of enroling my son at his present (constructivist)
)school, I was asked (not _allowed_) to come and observe the school for
)_a week_ before I made up my mind. So I did; for one whole week I could
)drop by any given time and walk around as I pleased, going into
)classrooms (just saying excuse me, can I come in for awhile).
)Does that sound different from the WS interviews/enrolement processes
)you know ;) ?
*Very* different. On first reading I thought you were talking about a
Waldorf school and I was totally confused.
If I recall, prospective parents didn't visit our classrooms at all. At
least I can't ever recall a prospective parent visiting (and I was in the
classroom every day, at least for awhile).
*Current* parents were strongly discouraged from visiting also, except for
birthday parties, or prearranged events like holiday parties. The only times
I recall parents observing were when there was already a known problem - I
remember two cases where a mother was concerned her child was being bullied,
or that a lot of rough stuff was going on, and *insisted* on seeing for
herself what was going on.
Now obviously, I am only recalling "isolated incidents," sorry folks, but
the way I recall it, in both cases it resulted in the parent taking the
child out of the school.
If a parent just wanted to visit out of simple curiosity (rather than being
upset and making a big stink in order to gain access), they were told they
wouldn't get an accurate idea of the life in the classroom anyway, because
their own presence would be so disruptive. (Never mind that, as you say,
Clara, in most other schools, visitors and observers seem to float in and
out without ruining everything.) If they really insisted, they were
permitted, but the teachers didn't like it at all.
Part of this is that parents, and other visitors, probably *will* disrupt
things, since in a Waldorf classroom things are done in very formal,
ritualized ways, which the parent will not get. The parent will ask
questions, do it wrong, or make comments that make the children "conscious."
One teacher tried hard to convince the rest of the faculty that they should
have a "no observation" policy - period. No parents allowed. She was
overruled, fortunately. I think rules were eventually written up - a set of
"guidelines" to hand visitors who, it was assumed, would otherwise make a
nuisance of themselves. (My son's public school has one simple guideline for
visitors: No weapons.)
If someone did visit or observe, another rule was that they must not sit
simply observing, but be involved in activities. College students taking
education classes were discouraged from observing, because they always
wanted to take notes, and that's a strict no-no. They must at least sit
knitting. There is supposed to be something unwholesome for children about
seeing an adult do nothing - or in feeling observed by that adult - which I
agree with to some extent - but also means the parent gets wrapped up in
that one activity, and probably can't focus on everything else going on.
Diana
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 02:36:42 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: on an 'unenlightened' comment
[Paul]
) ) Sune shouldn't you have used a semicolon rather than a colon on this
) ) statement. Poor Daina she probably suffers from nightmares.
[Sune]
)Sorry:
);;;;;-)
)But I seriously doubt she suffers from nightmares in relation to me
)popping up in one or other dream of hers, if that is the case ...
):-) ?
);-) ?
I don't get enough sleep to dream about much of anything. Oh, if I dreamed
of you, Sune, I'm sure it wouldn't be a nightmare. :)
Didn't Steiner say dreams are just disturbances of internal organs, anyway?
I was disappointed to read that. He had such dramatic explanations for so
many mundane things. Dreams interest me very much, but he says they're just
disturbances in your liver or something. I guess that makes sense if it's
only your physical body sleeping, your astral body is on a sort of cosmic
safari all night.
Diana
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Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 21:08:05 -0800
From: soma (soma mwt.net)
Subject: Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
Steve Premo wrote:
) Debra:
) ) I noticed that Steiner carried his work further than the Rosicrucians
) ) seemed to, having developed all kinds of plans for different things, like
) ) medicine and schools for kids. The Rocicrucians have written books on
) ) healing, but I haven't heard of Rosicrucian medicine like I have
) ) Anthroposophical medicine. No gardening instructions either.
Sharon:
Steiner said that Rosicrucians had schools for kids. Yates and Steiner say that
Rosicrucians were doctors of "medicine", (meaning they used Paracelsus alchemy,
Cabala, hermetic magic, etc. for healing, much like anthroposophical medicine.)
) Steve:
) I see the Rosicrucians as a fraternal organization which is based
) on esoteric religious concepts, like the Masons, except that they take
) their esoteric concepts more seriously than do rank and file Masons.
Sharon:
According to Francis Yates, European Freemasonry was connected with the
Rosicrucian movement. Freemasonry, like the RC Brothers, combined an esoteric
religion with ethical teaching, emphasizing philanthropy. Freemasonry differs
from Rosicrucianism in that Masonry is not interested in the reform of arts
and sciences, or in scientific research, or in alchemy and magic.
Max Heindel (1865-1919), a student and disciple of Rudolf Steiner, established
a Rosicrucian society in Seattle in 1909 and one in Oceanside, CA in 1911.
And while we're on this subject, Paul sent me a link not too long ago
advertising a new book on Rosicrucianism offered up by the Anthroposophical
Press!
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 03:08:26 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Racism definition
[Chris]
) ) clearly racism is an issue with Steiner and there
) ) seems to be a fair number of experiences floating
) ) around that suggest it is an issue with the schools
) ) as well.
[Neil]
)I have always been amazed by the virtually total absence of accounts )of
)racist teaching or practice in Waldorf schools (with the striking exception
)of the notorious Dutch schools
Check out the SJU list if you'd like a current (just since Christmas)
discussion of the anthroposophic signficance of blackness. I'd love to quote
chunks of it here, but apparently they don't like it much if you quote them
elsewhere. Deborah, you in particular would go wild over it, and rightly in
this case. It's all about black representing our "lower selves," our "dark
side," our material nature, etc.
This topic seemed to pop out of nowhere on the SJU list, but he was talking
about the signficance of the "black imp" in the tales of St. George and the
dragon, and I guess other fairy tales too. This seems a pretty clear example
of how an anthroposophic mindset could influence the curriculum, and it is,
frankly, racist and ignorant. I think this guy is a parent, and not a
teacher, but it's worth noting he got nothing but "wow, gee thanks" and "how
brilliant" in response. Nobody questioned it.
I really don't think the teachers stand in front of the class and say,
"Remember children, Aryans are superior." However, that is not the only form
racism takes.
Per Rudolf Steiner, your race is a significant part of your karma. The
teachers view themselves as helping the children work on their karma.
I believe it was you, Neil, who recently asked, in apparent disbelief, for
Steiner quotes correlating black people with childhood, Asian people with
adolescence, and white people with adulthood (and I think Native Americans
were associated with old age). If I recall you had nothing more to say when
I posted the quotes (they were lecture synopses quoted verbatim as they
appear on Sune's website).
How much clearer can this get?
I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt that they don't teach this
crap, but . . . it's hard. It would be easier if Waldorf teachers would
simply say they don't agree with the racial doctrines of anthroposophy.
Instead, they pretend they haven't heard of this little controversy, or they
say the critics are too unenlightened to get what Steiner "really" meant.
Diana
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Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 03:11:22 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
[one of Steve's concerns about the WE curriculum:]
) ) The elements are earth, water, fire and air;
[Sune]
)'Elements' in the traditional sense 'are' what since long back in
)history (for at least 1300 years since Greek Antiquity) was called
)'earth', 'water', 'air' and 'fire'. It is the basic term in the history
)of ideas,
Excuse me, Sune, are you saying that the four elements are taught in Waldorf
as part of the "history of ideas"? Since when would the history of ideas be
part of the grade school curriculum?
Diana
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 22:22:29 -0500
From: Newpaul (dingman mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: on an 'unenlightened' comment
Diana Winters wrote:
Dreams interest me very much, but he (Steiner) says they're just
) disturbances in your liver or something. I guess that makes sense if it's
) only your physical body sleeping, your astral body is on a sort of cosmic
) safari all night.
)
) Diana
)
Newpaul
Yes this makes perfect sense. A bad dream is probably due to the
affixation of the astral body after the physical body has ingested too
many black-eyed peas. Did Lucifer of Arhiman make me eat those gaseous
beans? ;-) In the South, black-eyed peas have spiritual properties.
Newpaul
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 03:22:04 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
[Sharon wrote:]
)I also ***highly*** recommend John Fletcher's book, "Art Inspired by
) )Rudolf Steiner"
Apropos of nothing in the current discussion, Sharon sent me photocopies
from this book so I could see the pictures of the "temple of the Occult
Brotherhood," etc., and I found myself delightfully entertained by the
following passage:
"On 14 December, Rudolf Steiner selected a small circle of people from whom
he appointed a committee; their task was to encourage artistic activity
through anthroposophical work. This intention had to be abandoned because
one of the persons given an official position brought
materialistic-egotistical forces into being, instead of balanced, spiritual
forces. Marie Steiner published a kind of testament . . . it gave
indications of how a person entrusted with matters of the spirit should
behave, and of how destructive it can be if he brings personal egotistical
conduct from the physical world into the spiritual world."
What a hoot. I can't explain exactly why I find it so funny, just reminds me
of our faculty meetings I guess.
Diana
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Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 03:28:28 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: on an 'unenlightened' comment
[Paul]
)A bad dream is probably due to the affixation of the astral body after )the
)physical body has ingested too many black-eyed peas. Did Lucifer )of
)Arhiman make me eat those gaseous beans? ;-) In the South, black-)eyed
)peas have spiritual properties.
Not only in the South. I serve them every New Year's Day. I make a delicious
vegetarian Hoppin' John. :)
Diana
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Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 22:38:53 -0500
From: Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodWinter.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
Dan Dugan wrote:
) Chris, you wrote,
)
) )Rose - cross - rosy - crucis - Rosicrucian. The link is there, although
) )I don't pretend to know what it signifies other than a very important
) )influence/source for Steiner.
)
) Source. He claimed that Anthroposophy succeeded Rosicrucianism, i.e. was the
) "new Rosicrucianism."
And the "new Theosophy" as well?
...Gary
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 22:45:25 -0500
From: Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodWinter.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
Steve Premo wrote:
) No, AMORC is an international organization. But there are other
) rosicrucian organizations as well. I think AMORC considers itself to be
) the "true" organization, and the others to be less authentic.
This sounds like the GAS (General Anthroposophical Society - the renamed
Goetheanum Society) and the AS (Anthroposophical Society - Christmas meeting
1923) rift that divides the Anthros.
...Gary
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 23:30:37 -0400
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: racism in the kindy/was racism definition
I consider it racist that in my child's kindergarten class, she was not
permitted to use a brown or black crayon, even though she is Asian and
therefore thus could not depict herself in drawings. (Of course, I made a
great big noisy -- and semi-public fuss -- about it, and the crayons
appeared on the days when I was in the classroom.)
That may seem a small thing, indeed. But the message that she was
somehow not "okay," came through loud and clear to my child. ("Maybe Miss X
doesn't like the color of my hair and eyes," my daughter said. When I told
her that that certainly could not be true, my daughter then suggested that
the school "did not have enough money" to purchase black and brown crayons,
and that we should "help by giving them some of [our money.]")
In addition, once I read some Steiner on my own and became familiar with
his theory of the spiritual evolution of the races, I realized that even if
the teachers at our school did not act in an overtly racist manner toward
children of color, there was no way in the world I would leave my minority
child in their care. (In Steiner's opinion, my daughter is a spiritual
"adolescent.")
Why would I knowingly put my precious child under the guidance of people
whose worldview and beliefs contradicted my own? That would be like
deliberately exposing my child to harm -- something I do not believe any
responsible parent would do.
-- Lisa
----------
)From: Neil Faiman (faiman jlc.net)
)To: waldorf-critics topica.com
)Subject: RE: Racism definition
)Date: Thu, Jan 4, 2001, 6:51 PM
)
) Chris Brostrup-Jensen wrote:
)
)) ... But
)) clearly racism is an issue with Steiner and there
)) seems to be a fair number of experiences floating
)) around that suggest it is an issue with the schools
)) as well.
)
) Chris,
)
) I'm really surprised that you've gotten this impression. Given the
) eagerness with which *any* flaw or failing of Waldorf education is
) trumpeted here, I have always been amazed by the virtually total absence
) of accounts of racist teaching or practice in Waldorf schools (with the
) striking exception of the notorious Dutch schools). When you asked for
) concrete accounts of actual practice in Waldorf schools back in
) November, you got precisely the following two examples. Are there
) really "a fair number of experiences" floating around?
)
) Regards,
)
) Neil Faiman
)
) ------------------------------------------------------
)
) (1) from Deborah Kelly:
)
)) The most obvious racism in the local Waldorf school is
)) New Ageism and it is quite heavy among the Waldorfers
)) I know here.
)
) (2) from Sharon:
)
)) In kindergarten and first grade, my daughter was not allowed to use
)) black
)) or brown crayons. When I asked the first grade teacher how a black child
)) would draw themselves, the teacher replied that she would help them
)) "smudge" their color from appropriate colors of crayons. I said that it
)) seemed racist and unfair. She said that it wasn't racist, but color
)) theory.
)
)) In a later grade when black was permitted, my daughter was made to
)) redraw
)) Eve's hair (from the Creation myth) yellow, her original choice had been
)) black. She was
)) often told stories about blond haired heroes. I sensed an outdated view
)) and
)) asked about it. It seemed racist to me, (this was before I had read any
)) Steiner and before I found the PLANS site.)
))
)) I once went to a puppet workshop at the Milwaukee Waldorf school.
)) Several
)) Waldorf teachers went on about not using the color black in puppets as
)) it
)) was a bad color to use. I said I didn't agree and we discussed it. They
)) said
)) that it represented darkness and evil. I said that black existed in
)) nature
)) and wasn't evil. They said that there was no black in nature. Off the
)) top of
)) my head I mentioned a black cat. They said that black cats are not black
)) but
)) rather brown. I said that it was a racist concept that black is evil.
)) They
)) started to get angry so I kept quiet.
))
)) At our school the teacher did not like the fact that I sometimes dressed
)) my
)) child in black, so I stopped. Some people at the school did not like
)) the
)) fact that I wore
)) a lot of black. In my opinion, this kind of thinking stems fromSteiner's
)) esoteric doctrine of dualism concerning light and darkness and the
)) battling
)) forces of good and evil, which inevitably extends to blond and dark
)) humans.
)) I don't think like this.
)
) ___________________________________________________________
) T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17
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)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 23:32:51 -0500
From: Neil Faiman (faiman jlc.net)
Subject: Re: Racism definition
Diana writes:
) I believe it was you, Neil, who recently asked, in apparent disbelief, for
) Steiner quotes correlating black people with childhood, Asian people with
) adolescence, and white people with adulthood (and I think Native Americans
) were associated with old age). If I recall you had nothing more to say when
) I posted the quotes (they were lecture synopses quoted verbatim as they
) appear on Sune's website).
)
) How much clearer can this get?
Sorry. Lisa claimed that Steiner had made an assertion which I found
unlikely:
) As I understand it, Steiner believed that all people reincarnate a number of
) times and thus, experience life as each of the various human "races." Those
) (again, this is Steiner being paraphrased and NOT MY PERSONAL BELIEF!!) who
) currently are incarnated as the black race are the "youngest" human souls.
) Those who are incarnated as the "yellow" or Asian races are "adolescents."
) Those who are of the white (Caucasian) race are "adults."
You posted a Steiner reference which was distinctly different from Lisa's
claim, but was superficially similar enough that it was probably what she
was thinking of:
) "Africa (here work forces which influence childhood), Asia (forces which
) influence adolescence), Europe (forces which influence maturity), North
) America (forces of decline)." (this is in reference to which cosmic
) influences are working where geographically).
Nobody seemed interested in substantiating Lisa's claim, and a
misremembering or misunderstanding of your quote probably explained its
origin, so I figured that that had been settled. I wasn't particularly
interested in pursuing the true quote you brought up (which, for the record,
I find as preposterous as Lisa's faux Steiner), so I just let the matter
drop.
-Neil
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 00:41:37 EST
From: Rechomba cs.com
Subject: Re: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
In a message dated 1/4/01 7:57:00 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20
Sune.Nordwall home.se writes:
) ) CONCERNS ABOUT WALDORF EDUCATION
) )=20
) ) I disagree with much of what I have heard that children are
) ) taught in Waldorf schools. Specific teachings that=20
) =20
) you think
) =20
) ) are contrary to
) ) current scientific knowledge or belief include:
) )=20
) ) Insects are related to plants;
) =20
) They are; insects take part in and are a necessary part of the
) reproduction of many plants, living in symbioses with them and feeding
) on them as part of this symbiotic relation. Understanding their relation
) to the 'seed'/reproduction-process of plants (as related to the flowers,
) where the plants also most distinctly 'evaporates' into small parts;
) seeds and smells) and in relation to their role in the disintegration
) and breaking down of nature into basic organic components reflects their
) nature well in general, I think.
) =20
) ) The elements are earth, water, fire and air;
) =20
) 'Elements' in the traditional sense 'are' what since long back in
) history (for at least 1300 years since Greek Antiquity) was called
) 'earth', 'water', 'air' and 'fire'. It is the basic term in the history
) of ideas, when describing the basic components of the world as it for
) very long was experienced as something that 'lived' between the basic
) touch experiences of degrees of warmth and humidity (see my article on
) 'Science' at my site, as also as some of many examples, for example
) http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/ch10.htm and
) http://philosophy.wadsworth.com/mitchell_wisdom/sample_ch.html).
) =20
) A more 'atoms'-oriented understanding and perspective on substances has
) later developed during the last hundreds of years, leading to the
) development and use of the term 'chemical elements' to describe basic
) substances out of a perspective of the number of protons in the 'core'
) of their 'atoms'.
) =20
) 'Elements' and 'atoms' constitute the two basic perspectives of
) substances, the first more reflecting the dynamic aspects of matter, the
) second more reflecting possible static aspects of matter.
) =20
) In waldorf schools, that through the grades tries to mediate an
) understanding of the development of humanity, one in the lower grades
) mediates an understanding of the 'elements', the basic dynamic aspects
) of matter, corresponding to an earlier perspective on man and nature.
) =20
) In the upper grades this in chemistry is developed gradually into an
) ever more differentiated understanding of the nature of substances from
) first a chemical perspective, out of basic chemical processes, leading
) finally to an understanding of the character of the different groups of
) chemical elements as they are reflected in 'The periodic system' of
) chemical elements.
) =20
) ) Planets influence growth of plants;
) =20
) ) The body is made up of the nerve=17sense system, the
) ) metabolic=17muscular system, and the rhythmic
) ) system;
) =20
) That is the basic reflection at the macroscopic level of the
) polarization of eggs of at least vertebrates and their development via
) the differentiation into endoderm, mesoderm and exoderm contributing to
) the basic components of the metabolic-muscular and -reproductory system,
) the heart as the internal centre of the rhythmic system, and the nervous
) system.
) =20
) ) The heart not a pump, or circulatory system is
) ) described, but the role of the heart is not
) ) explained;
) =20
) The role of the heart in the human organism is very complex, as one of
) the most developed organs sensing and regulating the rhythmic life of
) the body. The picture of the heart as a 'pump' describes one aspect of
) this role, its 'will'-aspect, in a very simplified way.=20
) =20
) What the discussion of the heart in WE primarily is concerned with is
) doing justice to the complexity of the role of the heart in the human
) body and in human life, of which the picture of it as a mechanical
) 'pump' only in a very simplified way reflects one aspect.
) =20
) ) Plants are like a man upside down;
) =20
) In wo/man, the basic 'warm' and 'warmth producing'
) metabolic/reproductive system constitutes the spatially 'lower' part of
) the human body, and the 'cold' pole of man is his head, as the centre of
) the nervous system. (In my childhood; quite unanthroposophic, it was an
) expression among kids: "What are you? Stupid in the root?") In plants
) this 'warm'- 'cold' polarity of the organism is reversed, with its
) reproductive system turned upwards instead of downwards.
) =20
) ) Goethean vs Newtonian color theory;
) =20
) They reflect two complementary perspectives on colour; Newton looking at
) it from the perspective of how some aspects of colour can be described
) if treating light as idealized 'rays' while Goethe mainly describes
) other aspects of light and colour, from the perspective of how they
) appear in nature and their nature in relation to human experience.
) =20
) ) There are 12 senses,=20
) =20
) That is probably not taught as such in general at waldorf schools, if
) not as a description of _one_ possible perspective of some aspects of
) our sensory processes, reflecting basic qualities of the richness of our
) sense experience, when describing the anatomy and physiology of the
) senses.
) =20
) What Steiner described as a=20
) =20
) ) corresponding to signs of the zodiac;
) =20
) That's purely abstract and does not belong in waldorf education as
) something taught to students.
) =20
) ) There are four kingdoms of nature, mineral, plant,
) ) animal, and man;
) =20
) That's the traditional basic way of looking at it and reflects one basic
) structure of the natural world (see my article on 'science' at my site).=20
) =20
) ) Species were specially created, rather than evolving
) ) from one another, and spiritual beings were
) ) the creators;
) =20
) This description mixes anthroposophy with WE. The basic species of the
) different groups of organisms in nature are described in their nature
) and character in WE and put in relation to one another from that
) perspective. Darwinism as the presently dominant view of understanding
) and interpreting the relation of species is probably described and
) discussed in most waldorf schools in the upper grades.
) =20
) I very much doubt that the view that species were specially created and
) that it was done by spiritual beings is described as a or the natural
) view is taught at Waldorf schools, except as _one_ view of evolution,
) held by some.
) =20
) ) Left-handedness is a condition that should be
) ) =E2=80=9Ccorrected;=E2=80=9D
) =20
) ... that probably was the dominant view in general in education until
) not very long ago. It was when I went to (public) school. To the extent
) that there are well-reasoned motives for not trying to 'correct' it,
) they should be considered in WE.
) =20
) ) The "ancients" had powers and knowledge lost to us,
) ) such as alchemy and the ability to see things
) ) outside the physical realm;
) =20
) That's how they describe themselves. WE is focused on letting the pupils
) experience how people and cultures through human cultural history
) experienced and expressed _themselves_.
) =20
) ) Religious mythology is taught as ancient history, or
) ) the theosophical framework for ancient
) ) history is taught as fact.
) =20
) The 'theosophical framework for ancient history' is not 'taught as
) fact'. A number of the central ancient cultures of humanity, the
) classical Indian, Persian and Egyptian cultures, the cultures of the
) 'fertile half moon'(?) and the Greek-Roman cultures are described out of
) central expressions of them, in mythology, art, and litterature, as
) cultural expressed of them by themselves.
) =20
) ) The ancient Egyptians moved the huge, heavy, stone
) ) Pyramid blocks with sound power.
) )=20
) ) That there is a relationship between the dactylic
) ) hexameter of Greek epic/heroic poetry, as in
) ) the Odyssey, and the so=17called "Platonic
) ) Year" (a hypothesis by Plato and others
) ) about the precession of the equinoxes over
) ) 26,000 years) and the number of
) ) breaths/hearbeats in a day.
) =20
) Too complex to discuss here. See archives.
) =20
) ) Astrology is taught in the higher grades.
) =20
) 'Astrology' in the sense of 'how to make horoscopes' does not as such
) belong to the curriculum of WS', I think, except possibly as an
) extra-curricular study of how those who do do it, if chosen by the
) students as a special study and done outside the normal course.
) =20
) 'Astrology' in the sense of describing how the star world was viewed for
) very long in different cultures, in terms of structuring the experience
) of it into twelve 'signs' or 'pictures', and how one viewed the
) elementary qualities of those 'pictures' or 'signs' is one part of
) understanding our cultural development.=20
) =20
) The stress in WE is on letting the pupils experience _how the different
) cultures experienced and expressed themselves_, not primarily on telling
) the pupils what they _shall_ think about them or how they _shall_ judge
) them. That's part of the reasoning process with the students, learning
) them to view things from different perspectives, with not always _one_
) being the self evident in all instances.
) =20
) ) Also, I have heard of disturbing events at other schools,
) ) including:
) )=20
) ) Parents being asked to leave the school=0Ewhen they
) ) questioned or objected to aspects of Waldorf
) ) education or anthroposophy.
) =20
) If parents _seriously_ question or object to basic ways of working in
) _any_ pedagogical or other tradition, which they have chosen freely,
) they probably have made the wrong choice of school or tradition and
) 'should' try to find a school that more corresponds to their views.
) =20
) ) Kids being inadequately supervised on the
) ) playground to prevent bullying and
) ) accidents, on the theory that angels will
) ) watch out for them and/or that whatever happens is
) ) a result of their "karma."
) =20
) Carrying the view to any form of extreme is irresponsible. The grown ups
) in the end are those responsible for what happens to children in their
) care and can blame noone else for those mishappenings among children
) that they as grownups could have prevented and that the children expect
) them as grownups to do.
) =20
) ) Dunce caps being used.
) =20
) If I understand 'dunce caps' correctly, I think in _any_ way using
) something as 'dunce caps' as making anybody (child) into a 'scapegoat'
) can only be done in a restricted playful way and if fully aware of what
) the process of 'scapegoating' can mean, from the perspective of a child
) being the object of it.
) =20
) 'Scapegoating' is today a global social process, polarizing those who
) 'have' from those who 'don't have'.
) =20
) ) Finally, I have heard of child studies being performed to
) ) determine the child=E2=80=99s karma and destiny, without the
) ) involvement or knowledge of the parents. Shouldn=E2=80=99t the
) ) parents be involved, or at least have knowledge of, the results
) ) of studies being done on their children?
) =20
) This is moving in a sensitive gray zone, I think, difficult to discuss
) in short in a more meaningful way.
) =20
) Regards,
) =20
) Sune Nordwall
) Stockholm, Sweden
) =20
) http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
) - a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
) EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
) =20
) ___________________________________________________________
) T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17
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) =20
) =20
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) To: waldorf-critics topica.com
) From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
) Subject: Re: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 16:56:50 -0800
) Message-ID: (0.1700032592.649981073-951758591-9786562
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 00:42:17 EST
From: Rechomba cs.com
Subject: Re: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
Sorry, I'll try again
Ray
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 01:35:37 EST
From: Rechomba cs.com
Subject: Re: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
In a message dated 1/4/01 7:57:00 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Sune.Nordwall home.se writes:
Steve's CONCERNS about WE:
) ) The elements are earth, water, fire and air;
)
[Sune]
) 'Elements' in the traditional sense 'are' what since long back in
) history (for at least 1300 years since Greek Antiquity) was called
) 'earth', 'water', 'air' and 'fire'. It is the basic term in the history
) of ideas, when describing the basic components of the world as it for
) very long was experienced as something that 'lived' between the basic
) touch experiences of degrees of warmth and humidity (see my article on
) 'Science' at my site, as also as some of many examples, for example
) http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/ch10.htm and
) http://philosophy.wadsworth.com/mitchell_wisdom/sample_ch.html).
)
) A more 'atoms'-oriented understanding and perspective on substances has
) later developed during the last hundreds of years, leading to the
) development and use of the term 'chemical elements' to describe basic
) substances out of a perspective of the number of protons in the 'core'
) of their 'atoms'.
The pre-Socratic,Ionian philosophers Leucippus and Democritus (approx 440 and
430 B.C respectively) were the originators of atomism. Their mechanistic
theory was revived during the Rennaisance (thankfully, after that long,dark
slumber).
) 'Elements' and 'atoms' constitute the two basic perspectives of
) substances, the first more reflecting the dynamic aspects of matter, the
) second more reflecting possible static aspects of matter.
"possible static aspects of matter"? Really lost me on this one Sune. Do you
consider string theory to be static?
) ) Planets influence growth of plants;
)
) ) The body is made up of the nervesense system, the
) ) metabolicmuscular system, and the rhythmic
) ) system;
)
) That is the basic reflection at the macroscopic level of the
) polarization of eggs of at least vertebrates and their development via
) the differentiation into endoderm, mesoderm and exoderm contributing to
) the basic components of the metabolic-muscular and -reproductory system,
) the heart as the internal centre of the rhythmic system, and the nervous
) system.
)
) ) The heart not a pump, or circulatory system is
) ) described, but the role of the heart is not
) ) explained;
[Sune]
) The role of the heart in the human organism is very complex, as one of
) the most developed organs sensing and regulating the rhythmic life of
) the body. The picture of the heart as a 'pump' describes one aspect of
) this role, its 'will'-aspect, in a very simplified way.
What is the "will aspect"? Are you connecting the autonomic with will?
Ray
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 01:42:09 EST
From: Rechomba cs.com
Subject: Re: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
In a message dated 1/4/01 9:32:40 PM Eastern Standard Time,
winters_diana hotmail.com writes:
) f someone did visit or observe, another rule was that they must not sit
) simply observing, but be involved in activities. College students taking
) education classes were discouraged from observing, because they always
) wanted to take notes, and that's a strict no-no. They must at least sit
) knitting. There is supposed to be something unwholesome for children about
) seeing an adult do nothing - or in feeling observed by that adult - which
I
) agree with to some extent - but also means the parent gets wrapped up in
) that one activity, and probably can't focus on everything else going on.
) Diana
While I sat learning how to knit, I knit my brow instead!
Ray
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5-Jan-2001 10:45:42 GMT
From: Clara Paix (paixs yahoo.com.br)
Subject: RE: racism in the kindy/was racism definition
Clara here:
I do not want to get into all the theoretical debate on racism here (my
views probably differ from most) but I have a small, real life WS
example to chip in. For me, it is a clear example of racism - what do
you others think?
When I was in KG, one day our teacher summoned us to reveal that two new
children would be joining us the next day. I remember her words (All
with her high-pitched, gently WS tone of voice):
"...and this girl and boy look different from us. They are of colour.
But we shall not look down on them for that! No, no, this does not make
them less than you all. We shall treat them with respect and kindness".
Needless to say, when the two came the next day, the kids gathered
around them looking at them as if they were were some kind of freakshow.
They had loads of trouble integrating.
This new children were personal friends of my family, and I remember my
feelings. I was 1) puzzled, because I¥d never realized there was
anything "different" about them 2) sad about what the teacher had done,
because I could see it had resulted in suffering for them.
Some might say, the teacher was very clever to foresee and prevent any
problems. I would say she jumped into it with her own prejudices and
ieas, and created a problem that might not have ever shown up in the
other kids.
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 117
-- Topica Digest -- issue 118
RE: Racism definition
By paixs yahoo.com.br
Re: Racism definition
By winters_diana hotmail.com
RE: Racism definition
By winters_diana hotmail.com
RE: racism in the kindy/was racism definition
By deborah_kelly yahoo.com
RE: Racism definition
By c_brostrup-jensen brown.edu
RE: Racism definition
By deborah_kelly yahoo.com
Re: Racism definition
By deborah_kelly yahoo.com
RE: Racism definition
By deborah_kelly yahoo.com
Re: Racism definition
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
By c_brostrup-jensen brown.edu
Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
By c_brostrup-jensen brown.edu
Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
By c_brostrup-jensen brown.edu
Re: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
Re: Racism definition
By soma mwt.net
Re: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
Re: For Chris/occult mystery schools?
By soma mwt.net
Steiner's personality
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
Re: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
By soma mwt.net
Re: Racism definition
By winters_diana hotmail.com
RE: Racism definition
By faiman jlc.net
Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
By soma mwt.net
Shame and humiliation in Waldorf
By snell netshel.net
RE: Racism definition - theory and practice
By faiman jlc.net
Re: Racism definition
By deborah_kelly yahoo.com
On racism - a few very blunt remarks
By paixs yahoo.com.br
Hermes
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
Blackboard drawings by Steiner
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
Re: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5-Jan-2001 12:35:26 GMT
From: Clara Paix (paixs yahoo.com.br)
Subject: RE: Racism definition
Neil Faiman wrote:
) You posted a Steiner reference which was distinctly different from
) Lisa's) claim, but was superficially similar enough that it was probably
) what she) was thinking of:
)
) ) "Africa (here work forces which influence childhood), Asia (forces
) ) which) ) influence adolescence), Europe (forces which influence
) ) maturity), North) ) America (forces of decline)." (this is in reference
) ) to which cosmic) ) influences are working where geographically).
Clara here:
Sorry to insist on this matter (my personal perspective obliges); so
it¥s Africa, Asia, Europe and North America.
South America, Oceania - nihil cosmic influences , he?
Or maybe not on the world atlas they used back then in Germany.
Or maybe just too insignificant to be talked about.
Maybe Sune was right in a way; Steiner is not Eurocentric. He¥s
Northocentric.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 14:30:17 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Racism definition
[Neil:]
)Lisa claimed that Steiner had made an assertion which I found
)unlikely:
[this was Lisa:]
) ) As I understand it, Steiner believed that all people reincarnate a ) )
)number of times and thus, experience life as each of the various ) )
)human "races." Those (again, this is Steiner being paraphrased and ) ) NOT
)MY PERSONAL BELIEF!!) who currently are incarnated as the black ) ) race
)are the "youngest" human souls. Those who are incarnated as ) ) ) the
)"yellow" or Asian races are "adolescents." Those who are of ) ) ) the )
) )white (Caucasian) race are "adults."
I'm still not sure which part you find "unlikely" coming from Steiner.
[Neil:]
)You posted a Steiner reference which was distinctly different from )Lisa's
)claim, but was superficially similar enough that it was )probably what she
)was thinking of:
[Diana quoted:]
) ) "Africa (here work forces which influence childhood), Asia (forces
) )which influence adolescence), Europe (forces which influence )maturity),
)North America (forces of decline)." (this is in reference )to which cosmic
)influences are working where geographically).
[Neil]
)Nobody seemed interested in substantiating Lisa's claim, and a
)misremembering or misunderstanding of your quote probably explained its
)origin, so I figured that that had been settled.
I don't know, but I doubt Lisa misremembered this *particular* quote. You
act like it's hard to find this stuff. It's all over Steiner, Neil. I've
read only a small fraction of Steiner. I'm trying to read the "Chance,
Providence and Necessity" lectures, and I will report if there are racial
implications. Who'd like to place bets?
)I wasn't particularly interested in pursuing the true quote you )brought up
)(which, for the record, I find as preposterous as Lisa's )faux Steiner), so
)I just let the matter drop.
Wow. I read your post, Neil, with the same odd feeling I used to get reading
Steiner - huh? Ok, maybe I am not reading carefully enough, or maybe I would
see all these subtle distinctions if I spent years doing Steiner's spiritual
exercises first . . .
I suppose you are saying (though you don't say it, you just dismiss its
relevance to Waldorf) that there is a difference between saying that blacks
are "young souls," and saying that "forces which influence childhood work in
Africa."
There is a theoretical differentce, but it isn't very reassuring, in terms
of piecing together Steiner's worldview. (Does anybody - Dan? have that
quote about the Negro being like a child?) I think most thinking people
would conclude that something is implied here, something unflattering, about
the people in whose geographic area, cosmic forces are at work that are
connected with childhood.
I guess yet again we must agree to disagree. If you feel the Steiner quotes
I posted are not at least fair corroborating evidence that Steiner's views
of the various races were more or less as Lisa summarized, then I give up.
There is no basis for discussion.
Personally, it would bug me, for my child's teacher to have absorbed this
black/Africa/childhood - Asian/adolescence - whites/adulthood crap from
their revered leader. They work from this man's philosophy, and this man's
alone. It would bug me. What else can I say?
Of course, another pet answer is that not all the teachers have read this.
Darn good thing if not.
Of course, we're all only interested in what we're interested in. I note
that you respond to this part of my post only, and not to my comments about
the teachers' views on karma, of which race is a big part, influencing their
relationships with the children. You asked for evidence that Steiner's
racism actually shows up in the classroom, but I guess my comments didn't
answer what you were interested in, so you will let that drop too. And the
current discussion on SJU about interpreting fairy tales according to
anthroposophic racism isn't relevant either?
You asked for evidence racism is in the classroom, then you ignore the
evidence, and claim I misunderstand Steiner. Usual story.
Diana
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 14:34:09 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Racism definition
[Steiner]
) ) ) "Africa (here work forces which influence childhood), Asia (forces
) ) ) which) ) influence adolescence), Europe (forces which influence
) ) ) maturity), North) ) America (forces of decline)." (this is in ) )
)reference ) ) to which cosmic) ) influences are working where
)geographically).
[Clara]
)Sorry to insist on this matter (my personal perspective obliges); so
)it¥s Africa, Asia, Europe and North America.
)South America, Oceania - nihil cosmic influences , he?
Sorry, Clara, I don't think your part of the world registered with Steiner.
Maybe he just never personally spoke to any of the "folk spirits" from South
America :) I'll go look at the synopses again.
Diana
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 06:39:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Deborah Kelly (deborah_kelly yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: racism in the kindy/was racism definition
The teacher's assumption apparently was that the two
new children would not look down on the other students
for being white or that the other students would even
consider looking down on the new children because of
their color. This is not only an example of racism,
but of the inability to think critically and/or
outside of oneself and/or a specific dogma. A local
Waldorf student makes a point of asking my daughter
each time he sees her, "So, do you still think you're
black?" Apparently he had not been taught anything
about slavery - well I know for a fact that Pleasant
Ridge teaches nothing about slavery because it is
considered to be too negative for the children - or
that it was the rape of African women by plantation
owners, etal. that has lead to a situation where no
one in this country (or in the world) can be certain
of his/her race ancestry. In the black communities in
which we have lived, no one has ever asked us if we
"still think we're black." Children raised in
communities that are not homogeneously of one culture,
race, or color also understand there is no way to know
a person's ancestry simply by looking at her/him.
What is the point of having children of obvious color
enrolled in WE? Is it simply to get tuition monies?
--- Clara Paix (paixs yahoo.com.br) wrote:
)
) Clara here:
)
) I do not want to get into all the theoretical debate
) on racism here (my
) views probably differ from most) but I have a small,
) real life WS
) example to chip in. For me, it is a clear example of
) racism - what do
) you others think?
)
) When I was in KG, one day our teacher summoned us to
) reveal that two new
) children would be joining us the next day. I
) remember her words (All
) with her high-pitched, gently WS tone of voice):
)
) "...and this girl and boy look different from us.
) They are of colour.
) But we shall not look down on them for that! No, no,
) this does not make
) them less than you all. We shall treat them with
) respect and kindness".
)
) Needless to say, when the two came the next day, the
) kids gathered
) around them looking at them as if they were were
) some kind of freakshow.
) They had loads of trouble integrating.
)
) This new children were personal friends of my
) family, and I remember my
) feelings. I was 1) puzzled, because I¥d never
) realized there was
) anything "different" about them 2) sad about what
) the teacher had done,
) because I could see it had resulted in suffering for
) them.
)
) Some might say, the teacher was very clever to
) foresee and prevent any
) problems. I would say she jumped into it with her
) own prejudices and
) ieas, and created a problem that might not have ever
) shown up in the
) other kids.
)
)
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Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 09:59:59 -0500
From: Chris Brostrup-Jensen (C_Brostrup-Jensen brown.edu)
Subject: RE: Racism definition
On Thu, 4-Jan-2001, Neil Faiman (faiman jlc.net) wrote:
)Chris Brostrup-Jensen wrote:
)
) ) ... But
) ) clearly racism is an issue with Steiner and there
) ) seems to be a fair number of experiences floating
) ) around that suggest it is an issue with the schools
) ) as well.
)
[Neil]
)I'm really surprised that you've gotten this impression. Given the
)eagerness with which *any* flaw or failing of Waldorf education is
)trumpeted here, I have always been amazed by the virtually total absence
)of accounts of racist teaching or practice in Waldorf schools (with the
)striking exception of the notorious Dutch schools). When you asked for
)concrete accounts of actual practice in Waldorf schools back in
)November, you got precisely the following two examples. Are there
)really "a fair number of experiences" floating around?
Good question. Deborah Kelly has talked about quite
a few experiences she had with folks involved with the
Waldorf school that seemed problematic, although it's
true that most of those occurred outside the school itself.
And since you posted this we've seen a couple more
remembrances offered. You are right, though, that direct
experiences of racism seem far less frequent on this list
than other kinds of problems like ridiculous class management
policies, inappropriate religious exercises and damaging
uses (or misuses) of karma in the classroom. It is not
necessarily clear that there is more racism expressed
in Waldorf classrooms than in any other classrooms in
this country. Given the racism imbedded in Steiner's
thought, however, and the important role that thought has
in Waldorf schools, there is still some reason to pay
special attention to the question of racism at Waldorf.
Chris
Chris Brostrup-Jensen
Father of a 4-year-old at
Meadowbrook Waldorf School
Rhode Island, USA
C_Brostrup-Jensen Brown.edu
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 07:01:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Deborah Kelly (deborah_kelly yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Racism definition
) I'm really surprised that you've gotten this
) impression. Given the
) eagerness with which *any* flaw or failing of
) Waldorf education is
) trumpeted here, I have always been amazed by the
) virtually total absence
) of accounts of racist teaching or practice in
) Waldorf schools (with the
) striking exception of the notorious Dutch schools).
There have been a few more examples than that given.
For instance, Pleasant Ridge WS does not teach about
slavery. Several of the teachers and parents make
frequent treks to parts of Mexico and Guatemala to get
their do-gooder yahs yahs off on those colored people.
These are just the overt acts; the covert bigotry is
the more difficult to deal with and that bigotry comes
from the underlying belief system which then plays out
in the classroom. I see the focus on Greece, Germany,
Zarathustra, Norse myths, the Old Testament and the
absence of World History through the reading or
communication of facts as bigoted too. Is Europe
considered to be a continent in WE? At least some
public schools have gotten away from that sort of
Eurocentrism; more and more of the maps I see in
schools no longer have North America in the center and
are drawn more to scale which emphasizes that Europe
and the U.S. are tiny in comparison to the rest of the
world.
This is what I was getting at when I asked if there
was a working definition of racism? Whether or not
black parents disapprove of a child marrying a white
person is inconsequential really. If the child is of
legal age she/he can marry someone, period. The
miscegenation laws were declared unconstitutional long
ago in the U.S. Institutional racism and
institutional sexism and institutional classism, etc.
are the entities that do harm to the community of
humans and that is what I think of when I think of
bigotry, including racism. Not having black crayons
in a classroom, which is in an institutional setting,
because black is considered to be a negative color, is
an example of institutional racism and is therefore a
serious problem. Teachers telling a family that the
reason their child is having problems in school has to
do with the black appliances sitting in their kitchen
is certainly another example of institutional racism
that harms the white student directly and probably the
people of color this student will eventually come into
contact with, indirectly or perhaps directly.
DK
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Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 07:07:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Deborah Kelly (deborah_kelly yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Racism definition
I am assuming that Steiner believed himself to be
white and/or Aryan. My question is, how did he know
that - how did he know that he was not, for example, a
reincarnated Negro scientist?
DK
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Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 07:10:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Deborah Kelly (deborah_kelly yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Racism definition
It is
) not
) necessarily clear that there is more racism
) expressed
) in Waldorf classrooms than in any other classrooms
) in
) this country. Given the racism imbedded in
) Steiner's
) thought, however, and the important role that
) thought has
) in Waldorf schools, there is still some reason to
) pay
) special attention to the question of racism at
) Waldorf.
)
) Chris
)
However, in a public school where it is more likely
there will be students of color, such covert racism is
picked up on more quickly and confronted and out of a
sense of not wanting to appear racist (which I believe
is a sad motivation) I have seen changes made.
DK
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Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 15:40:50 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Racism definition
[Deborah]
)I am assuming that Steiner believed himself to be
)white and/or Aryan. My question is, how did he know
)that - how did he know that he was not, for example, a
)reincarnated Negro scientist?
He could easily have believed himself to be a reincarnated Negro scientist.
He considered himself very open-minded. He believed that his own theories
were not racist *because* of this reincarnation thing. He taught,
essentially, that the races have these particular characteristics, and
associated soul qualities, spiritual missions, etc., but that you shouldn't
hold these racial things, whether negative or positive, against an
*individual*, because that individual might have been of another race in the
past, or might be in the future. Thus we can have all this open-minded
sounding stuff about how the individual transcends his race, but still hang
onto outmoded ideas about racial differences.
Very complicated. Still racist.
Diana
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 11:09:04 -0500
From: Chris Brostrup-Jensen (C_Brostrup-Jensen brown.edu)
Subject: Re: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
On Fri, 05 Jan 2001, Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se) wrote:
)Steve Premo wrote:
) =
)
) ) Here is a list of things I wrote up to ask my son's teacher about a cou=
)ple
) ) of years ago:
)
)
) ) The "ancients" had powers and knowledge lost to us,
) ) such as alchemy and the ability to see things
) ) outside the physical realm;
)
[Sune]
)That's how they describe themselves. WE is focused on letting the pupils
)experience how people and cultures through human cultural history
)experienced and expressed _themselves_.
[Steve]
) ) Religious mythology is taught as ancient history, or
) ) the theosophical framework for ancient
) ) history is taught as fact.
[Sune]
)The 'theosophical framework for ancient history' is not 'taught as
)fact'. A number of the central ancient cultures of humanity, the
)classical Indian, Persian and Egyptian cultures, the cultures of the
)'fertile half moon'(?) and the Greek-Roman cultures are described out of
)central expressions of them, in mythology, art, and litterature, as
)cultural expressed of them by themselves.
) =
)
[Steve]
) ) Astrology is taught in the higher grades.
[Sune]
)'Astrology' in the sense of 'how to make horoscopes' does not as such
)belong to the curriculum of WS', I think, except possibly as an
)extra-curricular study of how those who do do it, if chosen by the
)students as a special study and done outside the normal course.
)
)'Astrology' in the sense of describing how the star world was viewed for
)very long in different cultures, in terms of structuring the experience
)of it into twelve 'signs' or 'pictures', and how one viewed the
)elementary qualities of those 'pictures' or 'signs' is one part of
)understanding our cultural development. =
)
)
)The stress in WE is on letting the pupils experience _how the different
)cultures experienced and expressed themselves_, not primarily on telling
)the pupils what they _shall_ think about them or how they _shall_ judge
)them. That's part of the reasoning process with the students, learning
)them to view things from different perspectives, with not always _one_
)being the self evident in all instances.
[Chris]
I think this idea of letting students understand how other cultures
see/saw themselves (to the extent we are able to replicate that in
the classroom) is a very interesting and potentially very productive
one. I get the impression, however, that neither students nor
parents are always clear that this is what is being done. IOW,
it seems in many cases (as reported by folks on the list anyway)
that this "self-defined frame of reference" (for lack of an immediately
available better alternative name) is experienced by the student as
the "truth" or sole available perspective on the period/culture/subject
rather than as one way to look at it. Is that your understanding of the
intent, Sune? Am I right in understanding how others on the list
experienced this kind of instruction as either parents or students?
If so, doesn't that result seem problematic?
[Steve]
) ) Also, I have heard of disturbing events at other schools,
) ) including:
) ) =
)
) ) Dunce caps being used.
[Sune]
)If I understand 'dunce caps' correctly, I think in _any_ way using
)something as 'dunce caps' as making anybody (child) into a 'scapegoat'
)can only be done in a restricted playful way and if fully aware of what
)the process of 'scapegoating' can mean, from the perspective of a child
)being the object of it.
A "restricted, playful way"? Are you arguing, Sune, that it
is possible to stigmatize someone "playfully"? If so, I think
that you are sadly mistaken.
BTW, "stigmatize" (meaning to publicly mark or note as inferior,
disgraceful or ignominious) is, I think, much closer to what you
mean than is "scapegoat" (meaning an individual or group being
made to bear the blame for others), unless you mean the teacher
is scapegoating one or more pupils as "dunces" to take the blame
for his or her own inadequacies as a teacher.
[Steve]
) ) Finally, I have heard of child studies being performed to
) ) determine the child=92s karma and destiny, without the
) ) involvement or knowledge of the parents. Shouldn=92t the
) ) parents be involved, or at least have knowledge of, the results
) ) of studies being done on their children?
[Sune]
)This is moving in a sensitive gray zone, I think, difficult to discuss
)in short in a more meaningful way.
[Chris]
I am curious as to why this would be a "gray zone", which
would seem to imply that the correct answer is very unclear
or complicated. If karma is to be used as an important way
to understand a child's personal and educational needs,
and thus to guide educational planning in a significant way,
shouldn't parents be kept informed of the teacher's
understanding of their child's karma and the consequences
that will have on the child's education? This raises again
the question of whether Waldorf education includes the
notion of a parent/teacher partnership. Sune, if you do
find the time and energy to delve into this more deeply
and elaborate on this remark, I would certainly appreciate
that and find it helpful.
Thanks,
Chris
Chris Brostrup-Jensen
Father of a 4-year-old at
Meadowbrook Waldorf School
Rhode Island, USA
C_Brostrup-Jensen Brown.edu
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 11:20:14 -0500
From: Chris Brostrup-Jensen (C_Brostrup-Jensen brown.edu)
Subject: Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
On Thu, 04 Jan 2001, soma (soma mwt.net) wrote:
)Chris wrote:
)
) ) ) Debra then goes on to provide a bundle of examples of the similarities in
) ) ) titles (and presumably concepts) between anthroposophical and Rosicrucian
) ) ) books.
) ) )
) ) ) I've already noticed a number of Steiner references to Rosicrucians and
) ) ) their ideas. It seems that they preceded him and must have affected his
) ) ) own ideas very substantially.
)
)Sharon:
)Steiner was a Rosicrucian and he promoted that path as occult "truth". He used
)Rosicrucian ideas in his Anthroposophy and his Waldorf schools. Indeed,
)Steiner
)was *heavily* influenced by Rosicrucianism. Francis Yates excludes later
)movements calling themselves 'Rosicrucian' but she sheds light on some of the
)earlier magicians that influenced Steiner. You would probably find Yate's book
)very interesting, and a pleasure to read. I found her books to be very helpful
)in understanding Steiner and occult science.
Thanks, Sharon, for the reference and the brief but very interesting
summary of its contents. As usual you seem to have pulled out a
fascinating plum that I'd like to explore more closely!
Could I ask you for a little more help, though? I searched the state
interlibrary online catalog for Francis Yates and found nothing. Under
Frances Yates (with an 'e') I found two entries, but both were from
the '60s. The titles are "The Art of Memory" and "Theatre of the World".
The author's full name is Frances Amelia Yates. Is this the right
person and it is just that my poor little state (Rhode Island) does
not include a copy of "The Rosicrucian Enlightenment"? Or if this
is not "your" Yates, can you give me any more complete biographical
info or maybe an ISBN for the book? How old is the book?
Thanks,
Chris
Chris Brostrup-Jensen
Father of a 4-year-old at
Meadowbrook Waldorf School
Rhode Island, USA
C_Brostrup-Jensen Brown.edu
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 11:30:02 -0500
From: Chris Brostrup-Jensen (C_Brostrup-Jensen brown.edu)
Subject: Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
On Fri, 05 Jan 2001, "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com) wrote:
)[Sharon wrote:]
) )I also ***highly*** recommend John Fletcher's book, "Art Inspired by
) ) )Rudolf Steiner"
[Diana]
)Apropos of nothing in the current discussion, Sharon sent me photocopies
)from this book so I could see the pictures of the "temple of the Occult
)Brotherhood," etc., and I found myself delightfully entertained by the
)following passage:
)
)"On 14 December, Rudolf Steiner selected a small circle of people from whom
)he appointed a committee; their task was to encourage artistic activity
)through anthroposophical work. This intention had to be abandoned because
)one of the persons given an official position brought
)materialistic-egotistical forces into being, instead of balanced, spiritual
)forces. Marie Steiner published a kind of testament . . . it gave
)indications of how a person entrusted with matters of the spirit should
)behave, and of how destructive it can be if he brings personal egotistical
)conduct from the physical world into the spiritual world."
)
)What a hoot. I can't explain exactly why I find it so funny, just reminds me
)of our faculty meetings I guess.
LOL! Clearly the children were not able to share the sandbox! :-)
"Brought materialistic-egotistical forces into being" indeed... how
could that statement *not* be funny?!
Steiner does seem to have been a somewhat humorless chap.
Any evidence that he ever managed to see the lighter side of
anything, especially himself?
Thanks for sharing that one, Diana. The pompous are a never
ending source of relaxing and healthy humor.
Chris
Chris Brostrup-Jensen
Father of a 4-year-old at
Meadowbrook Waldorf School
Rhode Island, USA
C_Brostrup-Jensen Brown.edu
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 17:02:24 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
)) ) Dunce caps being used.
)[Sune]
))If I understand 'dunce caps' correctly, I think in _any_ way using
))something as 'dunce caps' as making anybody (child) into a 'scapegoat' can
))only be done in a restricted playful way and if fully ))aware of what the
))process of 'scapegoating' can mean, from the ))perspective of a child
))being the object of it.
[Chris]
)A "restricted, playful way"? Are you arguing, Sune, that it
)is possible to stigmatize someone "playfully"? If so, I think
)that you are sadly mistaken.
Let's be blunt, dunce caps are a brutal remnant of the past. Scapegoating
has *no* educational purpose. There is *no* way to do this playfully. If
anything, to do it "playfully" would be worse. That makes me very angry.
It's about shame and humiliation, it could permanently harm a child. It's
child abuse.
Dunce caps are up there with washing mouths out with soap, which I also
personally observed in Waldorf.
Diana
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 18:11:06 +0100
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
Chris Brostrup-Jensen wrote:
) Is this the right
) person and it is just that my poor little state (Rhode Island) does
) not include a copy of "The Rosicrucian Enlightenment"? Or if this
) is not "your" Yates, can you give me any more complete biographical
) info or maybe an ISBN for the book? How old is the book?
It was first published in 1972 by Routledge & Kegan Paul Ltd. It was
also published in 1975 by Paladin (Forgmore, St Albans, Herts AL2 2NF).
http://www.telesterion.com/esotericbooks/francisa.htm says it was
republished in 1993 and can be bought at Amazon.
Regards,
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 11:31:50 -0800
From: soma (soma mwt.net)
Subject: Re: Racism definition
Diana Winters wrote:
) [Deborah]
) )I am assuming that Steiner believed himself to be
) )white and/or Aryan. My question is, how did he know
) )that - how did he know that he was not, for example, a
) )reincarnated Negro scientist?
)
) He could easily have believed himself to be a reincarnated Negro scientist.
) He considered himself very open-minded. He believed that his own theories
) were not racist *because* of this reincarnation thing. He taught,
) essentially, that the races have these particular characteristics, and
) associated soul qualities, spiritual missions, etc., but that you shouldn't
) hold these racial things, whether negative or positive, against an
) *individual*, because that individual might have been of another race in the
) past, or might be in the future. Thus we can have all this open-minded
) sounding stuff about how the individual transcends his race, but still hang
) onto outmoded ideas about racial differences.
)
) Very complicated. Still racist.
)
Sharon:
Steiner is not complicated, just full of shit.
In "Christianity as Mystical Fact", p 44 Steiner explains:
"The structure of an ape is no longer a miracle if we assume its ancestors to
have been primitive fishes that have been gradually transformed. Let us at
least accept as reasonable in the domain of spirit what seems to us to be right
in the domain of nature! Is the perfect spirit to have the same antecedents as
an imperfect one? Does a Goethe have the same antecedents as any Hottentot? The
antecedents of an ape are as unlike those of a fish as are the antecedents of
Goethe's spirit unlike those of a savage. The spiritual ancestry of Goethe's
spirit is a different one from that of the savage. The spirit has evolved as
has the body. The spirit in Goethe has more progenitors than the one in a
savage. Let us take the doctrine of reincarnation in this sense and we shall no
longer find it unscientific.....the stamp of a genius must be acquired. It must
have been learned. And when it appears in a person we call it spirit. This
spirit too must have gone to school; its capacities in later life were acquired
in a former one."
Sharon:
So.... if you are an imperfect savage it is a sign that you were always an
imperfect savage in your past lives and your body still has not evolved into a
white one. (Better get yourself to a school that teaches the heart, hands, and
head!) Steiner couldn't possibly have believed that he was a reincarnated
savage / negro scientist, as he thought he was brilliant and very spiritually
advanced. His spirit must have had a white body for many past lives, just like
Goethe. The negro scientist he was talking about was on his way to becoming
more spiritually advanced because he now had a white body.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 19:30:36 +0100
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
Chris wrote:
) [Sune]
) )If I understand 'dunce caps' correctly, I think in _any_ way using
) )something as 'dunce caps' as making anybody (child) into a 'scapegoat'
) )can only be done in a restricted playful way and if fully aware of what
) )the process of 'scapegoating' can mean, from the perspective of a child
) )being the object of it.
)
) A "restricted, playful way"? Are you arguing, Sune, that it
) is possible to stigmatize someone "playfully"? If so, I think
) that you are sadly mistaken.
)
) BTW, "stigmatize" (meaning to publicly mark or note as inferior,
) disgraceful or ignominious) is, I think, much closer to what you
) mean than is "scapegoat" (meaning an individual or group being
) made to bear the blame for others), unless you mean the teacher
) is scapegoating one or more pupils as "dunces" to take the blame
) for his or her own inadequacies as a teacher.
As I tried to hint at with 'If I understand ...', I did not know what
the term 'dunce cap' meant and did not find it in a dictionary, so I
had to put together the separate meaning of the two words. I'm still not
quite sure of what it means or more clearly how it is used in US.
What I also tried to express was that I think as an adult ascribing
different roles to children as 'Kings', 'Queens' or in other types of
roles, as with 'dunce caps', involving role playing in some form, can
only be done if the children understand that it's a game or play.
Any type of stigmatizing of children is of course not allowable. What is
important is that all the children involved where adults tak part
experience that what the grownups do is fair and just.
) [Steve]
) ) ) Finally, I have heard of child studies being performed to
) ) ) determine the child's karma and destiny, without the
) ) ) involvement or knowledge of the parents. Shouldn't the
) ) ) parents be involved, or at least have knowledge of, the results
) ) ) of studies being done on their children?
)
) [Sune]
) )This is moving in a sensitive gray zone, I think, difficult to discuss
) )in short in a more meaningful way.
)
) [Chris]
) I am curious as to why this would be a "gray zone", which
) would seem to imply that the correct answer is very unclear
) or complicated.
I fully understand what you mean in your role as parent. Yet, if you
have some experience of situations when different groups of _any_ kind
of professionals are involved in some way in your child or your life as
a family, I think you will know that they involve you as parent in some
discussions but not in other.
In all professional groups, there are _some_ discussions that only take
place _within_ the specific group and does not involve persons outside
that group.
) If karma is to be used as an important way
) to understand a child's personal and educational needs,
) and thus to guide educational planning in a significant way,
) shouldn't parents be kept informed of the teacher's
) understanding of their child's karma and the consequences
) that will have on the child's education?
I agree with you, but think talking about the situation of children in
terms of 'karma' probably normally does not add _very_ much to the
discussion in terms of more deeply understanding the actual long term
background of the their situation. It's more a question of trying to
'read' the individual and social situation of the children as a basis
for deciding how to handle it, in a way that probably does not differ
much from any more serious professional therapeutic discussion.
) This raises again
) the question of whether Waldorf education includes the
) notion of a parent/teacher partnership.
As to the part that is limited to the child in question, I agree that
the parent should be fully informed by the teachers in question of
their understanding in terms of what they think is important for the
child. As to the part of the understanding that involves you as parent
as a person, I think probably no group will _fully_ tell you
_everything_ that they think about you.
Regards,
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 12:39:16 -0800
From: soma (soma mwt.net)
Subject: Re: For Chris/occult mystery schools?
soma wrote:
)
)
) Chris Brostrup-Jensen wrote:
)
)) I still think that based on Sharon's own, quite specific, definition
))
)) of "mystery school" Waldorf does not qualify, but I've promised
)) not to fight that battle any more. Just had to flag this one.
)
) Sharon:
) Chris, I did not give my own specific definition of a mystery school.
) I quoted from a Rosicrucian's article on mystery schools. I don't
) think there is a specific definition of a mystery school, that would
) be defined by the Master. I left town and didn't have a chance to
) defend my post. I stand by my assertion that Waldorf schools are
) mystery centers, and can't fathom why you think that Waldorf does not
) qualify!
)
) In my quote from the article entitled "Mystery Schools", taken from
) 'The Rosicrucian Digest', Feb. 1952, Grand Master Rodman R. Clayson
) wrote on p 70, "The Druid mystery schools were particularly strong in
) Gaul and Britain during the period of the Roman conquest. In their
) teachings a *simpler moral code was taught to all, while the deeper
) esoteric teachings were given only to the initiated*." Perhaps Neil
) would accept this since he pointed out that Waldorf teacher training
) centers were mystery schools? In other words, the teachers in Waldorf
) schools have the deeper esoteric teachings and further initiate
) themselves as they climb the spiritual ladder in the class rooms,
) while the students learn a simpler moral code because they are not
) clued in. Don't think of the training schools as separate from Waldorf
) schools. Think macro-microcosmically.
) I believe that the children are Initiates because I heard an
) indoctrinated teacher at our school referring to them as that, plus
) I've read a lot of Steiner which is why I won't budge on my assertion
) that Waldorf schools are mystery centers. (Please read the definitions
) of Initiate / Initiation provided below).
)
) Chris, have you ever looked at a Waldorf student's lesson books from
) KG-8th grade? I have had the privelege of looking through tubs of
) lesson books from a family with several children who attended Waldorf
) for years. I highly recommend that you sit and look through one
) child's work from KG-8th. (In KG you will see talismans, no lesson
) books). When you see the work as a whole, things will become clearer
) and you will see the mysteries of Waldorf education.
)
) When I posted Grand Master Clayson's article on mystery schools I
) thought you would make some comparisons with the curriculum. Here are
) some comparisons that I have quickly made using Steiner's "Line of
) Initiations", Clayson's article, and the Waldorf curriculum.
)
) 1st sub race - ancient Indian culture. [Brahmic mysteries.]
)
) 2nd sub race - Zarathustra culture [The Mythraic mysteries are the
) simplified teachings of Zoroaster, the Persian Mystic. Mythras, the
) god of intelligence mediates Ormazd, representing good and Ahriman,
) representing evil.]
)
) 3rd sub race - Babyl. Assyr. culture [Egyptian Osirian mysteries, Set
) kills his brother Osiris who was ressurected and enjoyed an afterlife.
) Isis the sister wife of Osiris recovered the body. This initiation
) showed that Osiris represented the earthly creative forces as well as
) virtue and goodness. Set was the manifestation of evil, it was pointed
) out that the two forces of good and evil were continually in
) conflict.]
)
) 4th sub race - Greco - Roman world [Eleusinian mysteries, principle
) characters in the mystery were Demeter and her daughter Persephone,
) goddesses of agriculture. This initiation taught immortality, just as
) plants die in the winter and are reborn in the spring, man will be
) resurrected in the heaven of the ancients, the Elysium.]
)
) 5th sub race - Germanic culture [Teutonic mythology, traditional
) beliefs of the Germanic peoples, including Odin the head of the Aesir
) (heroic gods), Ymir, Valhalla the resting place of slain warriors.
) Next in line comes Thor, others of the pantheon included Balder and
) Loki, etc.] Not from Clayson.
)
) There are also Old Testament stories, Legends of the Holy People, and
) many other mysteries served up daily, year after year.
)
) There is a lot on mystery centers in the Poplawski Eurythmy book which
) I think Dan owns and perhaps he will post a few snippets for us if he
) has time.
)
) Here are a couple of useful definitions from "The Magician's
) Companion, A Practical Guide to Magical and Religious Symbolism" by
) Bill Whitcomb 1999, Llewellyn Publications, St. Paul MN. Apply these
) definitions to Waldorf pupils or to Waldorf teachers and see what you
) think.
)
) "INITIATE: 1. Someone possessed of a secret or interior knowledge
) gained through experience.
)
) 2. Someone who has approached the occult through systematic training,
) usually through a lodge or other organization.
)
) INITIATION: 1: An intense personal experience resulting in an
) integration or validation of previous personal development.
)
) 2: A ritual used to signify entrance or progression in a magical or
) religious organization, frequently intended to bring about such an
) intense personal experience. Used informally to mean the knowledge or
) access to secret or occult information. Also used to refer to any rite
) of passage".
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
)
))
)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 19:45:17 +0100
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Steiner's personality
Chris wrote:
) Steiner does seem to have been a somewhat humorless chap.
) Any evidence that he ever managed to see the lighter side of
) anything, especially himself?
)
) Thanks for sharing that one, Diana. The pompous are a never
) ending source of relaxing and healthy humor.
One personal picture can be found at http://www.uncletaz.com/belyi.html
It describes how Boris Bugayev, a distinguished Russian symbolist poet,
experienced Rudolf Steiner on different occasions.
According to http://writersalmanac.org/docs/00_10_09.htm Bugayev is best
known for his novel St. Petersburg (1913), a novel set in the
revolutionary Russia of 1905. Nabokov called it, "one of the four great
masterpieces of 20th-century prose."
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 19:15:53 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
[Sune re: dunce caps]
)As I tried to hint at with 'If I understand ...', I did not know what
)the term 'dunce cap' meant and did not find it in a dictionary, so I
)had to put together the separate meaning of the two words. I'm still )not
)quite sure of what it means or more clearly how it is used in US.
Ok, Sune, I give you credit that you just didn't know what dunce caps are. I
doubt many adults in the US have personal experience of them, either; they
kind of went out of style about 60 years ago. Waldorf has a lot of
anachronistic things like this still hanging around that derive from
medieval or worse child rearing notions.
At any rate, they are not about "role playing." You stand in the corner
wearing this cap to show you are a dunce - idiot. It's a punishment. You
thought it was sort of like a court jester, maybe?
Diana
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 13:31:03 -0800
From: soma (soma mwt.net)
Subject: Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
Chris Brostrup-Jensen wrote:
)
) Could I ask you for a little more help, though? I searched the state
) interlibrary online catalog for Francis Yates and found nothing. Under
) Frances Yates (with an 'e') I found two entries, but both were from
) the '60s. The titles are "The Art of Memory" and "Theatre of the World".
) The author's full name is Frances Amelia Yates. Is this the right
) person and it is just that my poor little state (Rhode Island) does
) not include a copy of "The Rosicrucian Enlightenment"? Or if this
) is not "your" Yates, can you give me any more complete biographical
) info or maybe an ISBN for the book? How old is the book?
Sharon:
Whoops! My spelling is not correct. It is Frances A. Yates. (1899-1981) the
leading Renaissance scholar of her time. The book is called "The Rosicrucian
Enlightenment", first published in 1972. Reprinted, '93, '96, '98. Published by
Routledge, 29 West 35th Street, NY, NY. ISBN O-415-10912-4.
Yates also wrote Giordano Bruno and the Hermetic Tradition, The Art of Memory,
Theatre of the World, Shakespeare's Last Plays and the Occult Philosophy in the
Elizabethan Age. Her collected essays, published in 3 volumes, include Lull and
Bruno, Renaissance and Reform: The Italian Contribution, and Ideas and Ideals in
North European Renaissance.
I have read her book on Bruno which is also a must read, and will find her other
books because they are so interesting and informative. (Sure beats reading
Steiner!) I wish she was still living as I have a few questions I'd like to ask
her.
Promise me that you will track down John Fletcher's "Art Inspired by Rudolf
Steiner" which is a large book with lots of colored pictures. I have lent my copy
to someone, but if memory serves the publisher is Mercurious Press. (Note that the
Press, if correct, is named after 'Mercurious Trismegistus' the supposed Egyptian
author of secret Hermetic texts!) You don't need to read it, (although you will
probably be so curious you will have to) just look at the pictures! It's Fletcher
not Steiner so you won't have to settle down with book and gun to head to read it.
While you are at it, track down some contemporary magic books in the Western
Tradition with Cabala as foundation, (such as Golden Dawn or Rosicrucian books and
you will see that Anthroposophy is all bits and pieces of the same stuff.)
Hope this helps.
Sincerely, Sharon.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 19:32:13 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Racism definition
[I wrote]
)He [Steiner] could easily have believed himself to be a reincarnated )Negro
)scientist.
and Sharon has contradictory stuff from Steiner, suggesting he considered
his own spiritual heritage much better than that!
I'm not disagreeing, Sharon. I wasn't suggesting he *did* think of himself
as a reincarnated Negro scientist. I was just saying that since he said
people reincarnate in different races, it is theoretically possible for any
individual, presumably including himself, to have once been a reincarnated
Negro scientist! He had to have it this way, or else the racial
characteristics he ascribed to different races would indeed seem racist -
you would be saying "bad" things about one race, and "good" things about
another. But if everybody switches races between incarnations, we mustn't
hold their race against them, good or bad, "young souls" or "old souls,"
etc.
Maybe we could say he couldn't (according to his own estimation of himself)
have been a Negro scientist any time *recently*, speaking in terms of eons
of spiritual evolution. :) I didn't realize the Negro scientist thing came
from something Steiner said (I thought Deborah made up the example).
)"Let us take the doctrine of reincarnation in this sense and we shall )no
)longer find it unscientific.....the stamp of a genius must be )acquired. It
)must have been learned. And when it appears in a person )we call it spirit.
)This spirit too must have gone to school; its )capacities in later life
)were acquired in a former one."
(snip)
)Steiner couldn't possibly have believed that he was a reincarnated
)savage / negro scientist, as he thought he was brilliant and very
) )spiritually advanced. His spirit must have had a white body for many
) )past lives, just like Goethe. The negro scientist he was talking about
) )was on his way to becoming more spiritually advanced because he now )had
)a white body.
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5-Jan-2001 20:37:08 GMT
From: Neil Faiman (faiman jlc.net)
Subject: RE: Racism definition
Summary:
Lisa Ercolano posted (in November) a statement about Steiner's beliefs
about the races. I questioned its legitimacy, and Diana Winter posted a
quote from a Steiner lecture synopsis which she felt supported Lisa's
statement.
Diana (now) noted my failure to reply to her quote. I observed that (in
my opinion) her quote was substantially different from Lisa's statement,
and does not support Lisa's opinion about what Steiner believed.
Finally, Diana challenges my disagreement.
(This was intended as an alternative to 90+ lines of quotations, some of
them triply nested. Diana, if you believe I've misrepresented anything,
please feel free to fill in the details.)
My response:
I believe that accuracy is important, even when representing someone
whose writings are as generally "weird" as Steiner's. I do not believe
that it is a good idea to make factually incorrect statements about the
beliefs and writings of Rudolf Steiner or about Waldorf Education (or
anything else, for that matter). I don't think such misstatements are
justified by that the fact that there may be other beliefs or writings
of Rudolf Steiner or aspects of Waldorf education may be just as
"weird", problematical, or offensive.
I do not think it is unreasonable of me to challenge explicit statements
on this mailing list which I believe to be factually incorrect. I don't
think that my challenge to an incorrect statement commits me to a
defense of, an opinion on, or a discussion of any other statements.
In this particular instance, I agree that a lecture about different
cosmic forces streaming into different continents is just as weird --
"preposterous", to use my original word -- as a belief about souls of
different ages incarnating in different races. The difference is that
the one is apparently authentic, while I do not believe -- and have been
offered no reason to believe -- that the other is.
However,
) I suppose you are saying (though you don't say it, you just dismiss its
) relevance to Waldorf) that there is a difference between saying that
) blacks
) are "young souls," and saying that "forces which influence childhood
) work in
) Africa."
That's exactly what I'm saying. Do you disagree?
) I guess yet again we must agree to disagree. If you feel the Steiner
) quotes
) I posted are not at least fair corroborating evidence that Steiner's
) views
) of the various races were more or less as Lisa summarized, then I give
) up.
) There is no basis for discussion.
I agree. If you believe that "Africa (here work forces which influence
childhood)" is the same thing as "Those who currently are incarnated as
the black race are the 'youngest' human souls", then "there is no basis
for discussion."
-Neil Faiman
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 14:53:16 -0800
From: soma (soma mwt.net)
Subject: Re: Waldorf/occult mystery schools?
Diana wrote:
it gave indications of how a person entrusted with matters of the spirit should
behave, and of how destructive it can be if he brings personal egotistical
conduct from the physical world into the spiritual world." What a hoot. I can't
explain exactly why I find it so funny, just reminds me of our faculty meetings
I guess.
Chris replied:
)
) Steiner does seem to have been a somewhat humorless chap.
) Any evidence that he ever managed to see the lighter side of
) anything, especially himself?
)
) Thanks for sharing that one, Diana. The pompous are a never
) ending source of relaxing and healthy humor.
)
) Sharon says:
When I started to scratch my head in puzzlement as to why the young humans at
our school could not make line drawings, as our teacher explained to me,
demonstrating how the first graders must start within the head from North to
South of the page as they copied and "smibbled"* a picture of a faceless gnome
off the board with a wax block crayon....(even though human beings have drawn
with lines for millions of years)...and because I was still perplexed about this
same issue later, when I attempted to get pencils in the KG for a T shirt
fundraiser, and tried to get a satisfactory answer from the teachers as to why
the kids could not make a quick line drawing of themselves for the shirt, I was
graced with a visit from one of the founders of the school whose husband is a W
teacher, and who has since become a W teacher herself.
She told me that there was no art in Waldorf schools (even though the brochure
said that there was), and as I still did not get the whole picture in those
days, and tried to understand nonsense, I did not run screaming out of my house
to remove my child from the school. I gave this teacher a copy of one of my
little comic books full of line drawings about Singlemom and Agnes that I made
about a child whose mother packed a taco in an envelope because she had run out
of sandwich bags. My visitor looked at the book and seriously informed me that
she didn't have a sense of humor. I felt sorry for her because I tend to enjoy
the more humorous side of things. Have you noticed that Sune doesn't enjoy my
sense of humor either?
*Smibbled- This is a word I have just made up since I'm at a loss for a word
that can replace "Draw" as used in regular society. Smibbled means the weird
"smudgy" kind of smibbles made by pupils in the early years in Waldorf schools,
as they put into practice Steiner's method to reprogram the human mind. (It has
been documented that even children born blind draw with lines.)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 13:36:37 -0800
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Shame and humiliation in Waldorf
))) ) Dunce caps being used.
[Diana]
)Let's be blunt, dunce caps are a brutal remnant of the past. Scapegoating
)has *no* educational purpose. There is *no* way to do this playfully. If
)anything, to do it "playfully" would be worse. That makes me very angry.
)It's about shame and humiliation, it could permanently harm a child. It's
)child abuse.
[Debra]
Hear! Hear! This is just one way that "bad boys" are *created* in the
classroom. Waldorf does this very well. I am aware of one child who was
constantly shamed and humiliated in our local public Waldorf school. This
child even ran away from school. The teacher responsible for the shaming
and humiliation convinced his single and very shy mother that _no_ other
school in the area would take him. This child is a wonderful kid, BTW.
The family is of mixed race. Mother is white, father is black and totally
out of the picture due to mental illness. There are 4 children, 2 boys and
2 girls. I observed both boys go through the Waldorf system being totally
shamed and humiliated.
I kept these boys for a week one time during the time the oldest wasn't
getting recess because he "didn't complete his homework." I was determined
that this child was going to turn in every bit of homework due, every
single day that he was in my care so that he could get recess. Monday
night, I went over his list and helped him complete it, and confidant that
he would _finally_ get recess, I sent him to school on Tuesday.
After school, I inquired about recess. He said the teacher still said that
he didn't complete his homework. I asked him if he had turned it in. He
assured me that he had. Still, I had to concede the only possible way that
he hadn't turned in all of his homework was if he hadn't copied everything
down on his paper, admitting to myself that if Monday's homework list he
had made was incomplete, there _was_ a chance that he hadn't earned his
recess.
That night I phoned two of his (very bright female) classmates to check his
Tuesday homework list, just to make sure everything was on it. While I was
at it, I asked about the Monday night's homework assignments. It appeared
that this boy's list had been complete on Monday, and appeared complete on
Tuesday. He had everything on his list that they had on theirs.
I asked him if there was anything else he had agreed to do, or was missing
any back homework assignments. He said there wasn't. He said that he wasn't
going to get recess no matter what he did, and his teacher _always_ blamed
it on missing homework. He kept saying "She is just crazy and there is
nothing I can do about that. I'm not going to get recess no matter what I
do."
On Wednesday I approached his teacher, who knew that he was in my care for
the week, and asked her what was going on. I explained that I had double
checked with other students in the class and had made sure this boy had
completed his assignments. What else was he missing? She immediately
screamed at me (in the hall in front of a crowd) and said that it was none
of my business. That kid went the entire week without recess, AGAIN!
When his meek Mother came home, I explained what I felt was happening to
her son, and advised her to pull him from the school immediately. She did,
thank goodness, but left her other kids there. I left the school shortly
after this.
Her second son was put through the same Waldorf ringer. He hated school and
begged to leave - even ran away a few times, but each time the teacher
convinced his gullible and believing mother that no other school could
handle her son's problems.
Now these children are a joy to be around! I loved having them in my home
that week and continue to stay in touch when i see them out in the
community. Both are in high school now. They are very bright, polite and
affectionate children. The oldest boy had simply resigned himself to be
bullied, shamed and humiliated by his "crazy" teacher. The thing that saved
him was the fact that he _knew_ it was her, not him that was "crazy."
As a side note, upon entering public school, this boy was tested because he
was so far behind academically. He was eligible for Special Ed services
because of the glaring difference between his abilities and his IQ. At the
time he was tested, he was an above average intelligence 6th grader who
functioned at the 3rd grade level. He caught up by the end of the year,
thanks to special ed services.
Another woeful Waldorf tale, I guess. (sigh)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5-Jan-2001 21:35:53 GMT
From: Neil Faiman (faiman jlc.net)
Subject: RE: Racism definition - theory and practice
I answered most of this in another message, but this point deserves
separate attention:
Diana Winters wrote:
) Of course, we're all only interested in what we're interested in. I note
)
) that you respond to this part of my post only, and not to my comments
) about
) the teachers' views on karma, of which race is a big part, influencing
) their
) relationships with the children. You asked for evidence that Steiner's
) racism actually shows up in the classroom, but I guess my comments
) didn't
) answer what you were interested in, so you will let that drop too. And
) the
) current discussion on SJU about interpreting fairy tales according to
) anthroposophic racism isn't relevant either?
Chris originally asked (November 21):
) What I am most interested in (and what this discussion very rarely
) touches on) is how these conflicting strains of thought in Steiner's
) work affect how Waldorf education is done *today*. Are Waldorf
) teachers being taught and acting on his ignorant characterizations
) of "childlike" Africans or are they learning and acting on the ideas
) from "Philosophy of Freedom"? What is happening in the classroom?
) How is it affecting the students? Deborah Kelly and others have
) shared some fairly hair-raising stories about this kind of thing. I,
) for
) one, would like to cast a vote for more talk about those kind of
) experiences
) (as well as the opposite kind that may be out there too) and how they
) relate to anthroposophy and Waldorf training as they are really
) practiced in the world, and less talk about specific quotes and what
) might or might not have been Steiner's "true" beliefs on race.
I responded at the time, and reiterated recently, "What are
conspicuously absent [on this mailing list - nf] are accounts of racist
teaching or racist practice in Waldorf schools."
You replied in November:
) ... race is part of a person's karma, in anthroposophic
) doctrine, and the teachers take karma very seriously. They mean well, of
)
) course. They want to help. They don't dislike children of particular
) races
) or treat them badly. But if I had a non-white child, I would get my
) child
) out of the way of this kind of "help" pretty quickly.
Recently you added that a discussion about anthroposophy on the SJU list
"seems a pretty clear example of how an anthroposophic mindset could
influence the curriculum", and brought up the discussion about Steiner
quotes about continents / races / cosmic forces / young and old souls.
In short, you are speculating about what things Waldorf teachers absorb
into their world view and how that affects their teaching practice.
Your speculations may be accurate or they may be inaccurate, but they
are not "accounts of racist teaching or racist practice in Waldorf
schools."
Diana again:
) You asked for evidence racism is in the classroom, then you ignore the
) evidence, and claim I misunderstand Steiner. Usual story.
My notion of "accounts of racist teaching or racist practice in Waldorf
schools" (and what I thought Chris was after as well) was *teaching or
practice* that is racist. I was specifically trying to distinguish
between theoretical discussions about Steiner and Anthroposophy, and
what teachers actually do in Waldorf classrooms. The argument that
"race is part of a person's karma, and the teachers take karma very
seriously" is not what I would call "an account of racist teaching or
racist practice in Waldorf schools."
By the way, I didn't think that I claimed that you misunderstood
Steiner. Please elaborate.
-Neil Faiman
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 13:52:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Deborah Kelly (deborah_kelly yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Racism definition
)
) He could easily have believed himself to be a
) reincarnated Negro scientist.
) He considered himself very open-minded. He believed
) that his own theories
) were not racist *because* of this reincarnation
) thing.
I have been doing a lot of research concerning
stereotypes in preparation for a civil rights
complaint we will be filing against the local school
district. Stereotypes, which is how I view Steiner's
placement of certain values and characteristics onto
the colors of people, always dehumanize the people to
whom they are applied. That applies to Steiner as
well who dehumanized the white race to which he seemed
to believe he belonged, by ascribing greater and
better characteristics to it. His writings concerning
the attributes he ascribed to Indian people, including
that they should have devolved out of existence, are
not different in substance from what was written about
Indian people by those who directly sought their
genocide and thanking god along the way for his wisdom
in sending pestulence among the heathens and savages.
The stereotypes used in contemporary sports team logos
and mascots have the same underpinnings as Steiner's
stereotypes. The stereotypes of women abound in the
U.S. and actually the global culture. The bigotry in
WE does not offend a lot of people so long as it is
not so overt, because that same bigotry in a different
style is our cultural wallpaper. It seems that WE in
some aspects tends to be covert enough in pushing its
agenda. By scraping the surface and communicating
that if the Waldorf folks simply cosmetically fix
their curricula, won't we wind up with something
worse?
DK
DK
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5-Jan-2001 23:39:25 GMT
From: Clara Paix (paixs yahoo.com.br)
Subject: On racism - a few very blunt remarks
Interesting debate going on these last days about racism in waldorf
schools/antrosposophy.
Don¥t want to sound prejudiced myself but - I can perceive that for
white, caucasian people it is very hard to recognize racial prejudice
when they see it, be it in theory or in concrete situations.
(I won¥t mention at this point the idea that even whites can suffer
prejudice; you have to admit this is _not_ the group who has suffered
most in terms of racial prejudice in the history of the world - please)
Have you ever heard men debating gender prejudice? For most women, it is
an irritating experience. Not many men are able to rise above their male
condition and recognize a situation of sexism when they see it. Most
times, it takes women to appreciate/fight against those events in a
society.
For example, some men do not realize that praising a woman¥s beauty can
be a preposterous thing to do in certain contexts, that it can be
offensive and sexist.
Same with racism, I¥m afraid.
In Steiner¥s "race theories" case, racial prejudice jumps right at
anyone¥s face.
If you cannot see it - it might be advisable to ask yourself: how would
I feel about that were I not who I am, but instead African, Asian, or of
mixed ethnic background? Is my difficulty in perceiving the obnoxiusly
prejudiced tone of those remarks connected somehow to my own ethnic
background? Would I think different if I weren¥t used to being in this
comfortable situation?
I¥m saying this because the discussion feels a little weird sometimes
for those people who, like me, are not part of the predominant (in terms
of power, economical or cultural) ethnicity. I cannot understand, at
times, how come certain remarks are not immediately recognized as
preposterous - like the spirit of children thing connected with Africa,
for example.
In all honesty, I think someone who cannot perceive the offensive racial
implications of that passage should stop and think very hard about the
reasons for this lack of sensitivity.
And only one last thing, about another point constantly mentioned -
whether ot not Steiner¥s "race theories" implicate the everyday teaching
situations.
Racism is a matter of principles. I personally do not care if those
theories are "put into practice" (whatever this would mean) or not. I
find it impossible to leave the education of a child of mine in the
hands of people who have read such theories and have not immediately
reconsidered their admiration for their author.
And quite frankly, I think someone who does not react to those remarks
by Steiner with a sick stomach does not view racism as an important
issue to fight against.
Peace for all,
Clara
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 01:13:05 +0100
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Hermes
soma mwt.net wrote:
) Promise me that you will track down John Fletcher's "Art Inspired by Rudolf
) Steiner" which is a large book with lots of colored pictures. I have lent my copy
) to someone, but if memory serves the publisher is Mercurious Press. (Note that the
) Press, if correct, is named after 'Mercurious Trismegistus' the supposed Egyptian
) author of secret Hermetic texts!)
Surprised at your unusual term 'Mercurious Trismegistus' I checked with
a search engine if it was to be found on the net. It pointed to two
pages of the 1.300 Million scanned by the engine.
'Mercurius Trismegistus' led to 106 pages, often, it seems as part of
the mixed form 'Hermes Mercurius Trismegistus'.
The proper term 'Hermes Trismegistus" leads to c. 3.700 pages, 'Hermes
Trismegistos' to c. 1.400.
The Egyptians called him Thot
(http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/6/0,5716,74146+1+72260,00.html).
Hermes was his Greek name
(http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/9/0,5716,41019+1+40160,00.html),
Mercurius is his Latin name
(http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/3/0,5716,53403+1+52099,00.html?query=mercurius).
There is a good, short article on the Hermetic writings in Britannica,
at
http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/2/0,5716,41022+1+40163,00.html?query=hermes
The book 'Art Inspired by Rudolf Steiner' can be found at
http://www.anthropress.org/BooksPages/ArtInspiredByRudolfSteiner.htm
No info on a 'Mercurious Press' can be easily found on the net.
It seems there existed a 'Mercurius Press', situated in London in the
80s' though.
In the Egyptian tradition, Thot was considered to be a god of the moon,
of reckoning, of learning, and of writing. It probably is the
association of Mercurius with Thot/Hermes in this basic quality that
made the publisher choose 'Mercurius Press' as the name of the company.
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 01:41:11 +0100
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Blackboard drawings by Steiner
) The book 'Art Inspired by Rudolf Steiner' can be found at
) http://www.anthropress.org/BooksPages/ArtInspiredByRudolfSteiner.htm
A site on an exhibition of a number of blackboard drawings by Steiner at
Berkeley in October 11, 1997 - January 4, 1998 can be found at
http://www.bampfa.berkeley.edu/exhibits/steiner/
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 01:50:27 +0100
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: (Diana) on an 'unenlightened' comment
Diana Winters wrote:
) Ok, Sune, I give you credit that you just didn't know what dunce caps are.
) ... You thought it was sort of like a court jester, maybe?
Yes.
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 118
-- Topica Digest -- issue 119
Re: Blackboard drawings by Steiner
By snell netshel.net
Re: Blackboard drawings by Steiner
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
Re: Steiner's personality
By rbc supranet.com
Re: Hermes
By pandora aa.net
Sune's links
By snell netshel.net
Re: Steffi in Finland
By canndw netzero.net
Re: Hermes
By soma mwt.net
Re: Blackboard drawings by Steiner
By soma mwt.net
Re: Blackboard drawings by Steiner
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Blackboard drawings by Steiner
By dan dandugan.com
Re: Hermes
By dan dandugan.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 16:57:13 -0800
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: Blackboard drawings by Steiner
)) The book 'Art Inspired by Rudolf Steiner' can be found at
)) http://www.anthropress.org/BooksPages/ArtInspiredByRudolfSteiner.htm
)
)A site on an exhibition of a number of blackboard drawings by Steiner at
)Berkeley in October 11, 1997 - January 4, 1998 can be found at
Debra:
Dan Dugan, Kathleen Sutphen and I toured the Steiner exhibit in Berkeley on
11/15/97. One blackboard drawing had a sign next to it that read:
The idea of colors
"Color is nothing, only image. And here we have presented the image of the
dead, the color of life, the image of the soul, the image of the spirit.
Black = the spiritual image of the dead
Green = the dead image of the living
Peach Blossom = the living image of the soul
White = the spiritual image of the spirit"
Debra:
Steiner was about as talented of an artist as he was a lecturer. The image
looks like a first grader's rendering of cat tails.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I guess. The quotes next to his
blackboard "art" were worth the price of the book. Talk about wacky stuff!
It is a real hoot to read.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 02:41:11 +0100
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Blackboard drawings by Steiner
Debra Snell wrote:
) Steiner was about as talented of an artist as he was a lecturer. The image
) looks like a first grader's rendering of cat tails.
The unpretentious drawings were not meant as 'art', but as illustrations
made in passing during lectures of what he tried to describe in the
lectures.
The Berkeley Gallery's own introduction does not seem to agree with your
opinion, viewing them also more fully fron an artist's perspective:
http://www.bampfa.berkeley.edu/exhibits/steiner/intro.html
'This exhibition will focus on the drawings' remarkable aesthetic
dimensions, presenting selected examples in which Steiner's highly
influential occult theories are expressed with astonishing beauty and
vitality. Made with colored chalk on black paper, the drawings are
highly gestural, often virtually abstract, and appear remarkably
contemporary.'
http://www.bampfa.berkeley.edu/exhibits/steiner/steineressay.html tries
to analyze the drawings somewhat more fully.
As a side note, I mentioned the site not as a promotion, but as
complementing info to Sharon's mentioning of the book by Fletcher on a
similar issue, for anyone interested to judge for him- or herself, as
most probably don't have the book by Fletcher.
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 19:53:42 -0600
From: "Rainbow Bookstore Cooperative" (rbc supranet.com)
Subject: Re: Steiner's personality
Hello waldorf critics,
Sune Nordwall wrote:
) One personal picture can be found at http://www.uncletaz.com/belyi.html
) It describes how Boris Bugayev, a distinguished Russian symbolist poet,
) experienced Rudolf Steiner on different occasions.
)
) According to http://writersalmanac.org/docs/00_10_09.htm Bugayev is best
) known for his novel St. Petersburg (1913), a novel set in the
) revolutionary Russia of 1905. Nabokov called it, "one of the four great
) masterpieces of 20th-century prose."
As the site Sune recommended makes clear, Bugayev is better known as
Andrei Belyi, usually rendered Bely in English. Bely was one of the central
figures in importing anthroposophy to Russia in the early decades of the
20th century; he plays a prominent role in standard scholarly accounts of
occult movements in Russia. One eminent analyst writes that Bely
"illustrates to an extreme degree the distorting and harmful effects of
viewing political events through an occult prism. His understanding of
Anthroposophy led Bely to believe that the Bolshevik revolution was a
negative apocalypse and that a positive apocalypse, a "revolution of the
spirit," would follow and complete the political and social revolution. In
essays written between 1916 and 1918, Bely described Russia as "the messiah
of the nations," "the God-carrier," "the woman clothed in the sun," and the
"conqueror of the serpent." (To Anthroposophists, the serpent represents
the lower forms of knowledge through which humanity must pass.)" (Bernice
Rosenthal, The Occult in Russian and Soviet Culture, Cornell University
Press 1997, p. 392) Rosenthal goes on to note Bely's conviction that
"enemies really do exist who are poisoning Russia with negative
emanations"; in 1922 he declared that "Politics will dissolve in spiritual
war" (ibid. p. 393). Rosenthal concludes that "Bely's paranoia was
exacerbated by Steiner's concept of objectless thinking, a special kind of
imagination and meditation in which symbols represent spiritual facts and
states of being to which the senses have no access." (ibid.)
Bely also shared some of Steiner's peculiar views on black people. His
memoir of his years in Berlin in the early 1920's (Andrej Belyj, In Reich
der Schatten, Frankfurt 1987; as far as I can tell no English translation
exists) discuss at length "the Negro in Berlin" -- that's the title of one
of the chapters; another is titled "On the "Negro" in Europe". Bely's
remarks on this topic combine awe toward black people's supposedly superior
physicality with revulsion at their increasing presence in Europe, which he
attributed in the usual conspiratorial manner to a "black international"
(p. 65 and passim). Bely decries "the "negroification" of our culture" (p.
55) and "the massive poisoning of the urban "Negro" with cocaine" (p. 56),
exclaiming that "the "black international" has also spread its poison over
Germany." (p. 56) Bely was even more concerned about the effects of black
immigration on France; there he anxiously foresaw "a tidal wave of millions
of negroes, mulattoes rolling toward Paris" (p. 58). He reports that when
he returned to Berlin in 1921 after a seven year absence he found "a negro
city" (p. 67); "this Berlin is not Germany, but a section of the black
international of Europe." (p. 72)
Perhaps some creative anthroposophist will offer a non-racist
interpretation of these quotes from Steiner's friend and disciple.
Peter Staudenmaier
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 19:06:05 -0800
From: "Sarina McDonald" (pandora aa.net)
Subject: Re: Hermes
Mercurius is mainly a wholesale distributor for schools and retailers
though they also sell to homeschool co-operatives. This is *the*
Waldorf school supply catalog. Perhaps this is what she meant?
Just guessin' -
Sarina
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 20:49:37 -0800
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Sune's links
Sune,
Do you get paid to search out links for this list? You must spend hours a
day doing this. I'm beginning to think you like us here. :+)
Debra
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 23:59:23 -0500
From: "David Cann" (canndw netzero.net)
Subject: Re: Steffi in Finland
Debra Snell said, a couple of days ago,
) Seen one Waldorf school, you've seen them all.
Well, sort of. I came up with the following simple analogy:
The Yankees and the Red Sox are both baseball teams. If you know little or
nothing about baseball, or even if you do, but don't see each team play very
often, it's hard to tell which team is better. Same number of players, same
basic activities, same types mistakes made. The good plays made by either
team look great, and the poor plays look bad.
In other words, "Seen one baseball team, you've seen them all." On some
level, that's true.
There are differences, however. Different approaches to certain areas of
the game may be tried. Areas of strength on a team can be stressed, and
areas of weakness can be improved. In the long run, if mistakes occur less
frequently, if the overall quality of play is higher, if the coaching is
more farsighted, the team wins more than it loses. Likewise, a team can
'cover up' its weaknesses, employing crisis management techniques, or build
slowly for long-term strength. Thus, a team (like the Yankees) can be
considered the best even though they, too, make foolish or plain stupid
plays at times. Likewise, the Red Sox can be perennial losers (gosh it
hurts to say this) despite having some of the best individual players
around.
Even the best team makes foolish mistakes; just not as often.
Please don't bother pointing out that this analogy doesn't extend very far;
I'm simply trying to say that despite Debra Snell's comment above, and the
larger point made here that waldorf schools share a great deal of common
'stuff', I believe that these 'independent schools' have great diversity in
how they run their affairs, deal with parents, and (most importantly),
implement their waldorf curriculum.
Can't prove it, of course. But the idea that everything's the same in all
these schools is, to me, clearly untrue.
David
Shop Safely Online Without a Credit Card
http://www.rocketcash.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 01:40:00 -0800
From: soma (soma mwt.net)
Subject: Re: Hermes
Sune Nordwall wrote:
)
) Surprised at your unusual term 'Mercurious Trismegistus' I checked with
) a search engine if it was to be found on the net. It pointed to two
) pages of the 1.300 Million scanned by the engine.
Sharon:
My unusual term is from Yates. I am not an occult scientist of 30 years like you are Sune, I
am looking to a recognized scholar to try to get to the truth when it comes to occultism and
history. I like reliable sources that don't get edited every five minutes. I have a lot to
learn but I am much more educated about Waldorf's occult science underpinnings than I was when
I enrolled my daughter in Waldorf. Heck, two years ago my knowledge of magic was zilch, at
least now I can recognize magic when I see it in eurythmy reports. I like Yates because she
has taught me so much, for example, I now know why Dee's name is missing from later
occultist's works. Thanks for the info. on Hermes.
I seem to have a very strong memory of the library book being published by Mercurius Press,
London 1980 or so. I know that there are at least 2 versions of the book because the first one
I looked at had a different cover and a picture of a painting of Steiner and Christian
Rosencreutz standing next to the blue alter, which does not exist in the copy I bought. There
are other things missing from the book as well. I said if "memory serves" about the publisher
because I have lent out my book full of pictures of anthroposophy's apocalyptic seals,
Steiner's Rosicrucian Temples, Steiner's carving of 'The Group' with Isis/Christ with flame
over heart, Mystery Plays, Zodiacs, planetary seals, Goetheanum, Solomon's red and blue
pillars, bla bla bla fish paste...(breath).... and I wasn't sure if Mercurius was correct. I
own the version of "Art Inspired by Rudolf Steiner" that you posted, (same cover) thanks for
helping me out with all the details of the book for Chris. You are being so helpful today
aren't you pal of mine!
) Sune:
) No info on a 'Mercurious Press' can be easily found on the net.
) It seems there existed a 'Mercurius Press', situated in London in the
) 80s' though.
Sharon:
Where did you find that little clue, off the net or someplace else? Perhaps you could help jog
my memory with a little more info.of what they published? Now me curious why I have Mercurius
Press in my head. (I know that Waldorf orders tons of supplies from Mercurius, the supplier of
water color paper and liquid paint for Waldorf Talismans, so I am not getting that muddled
with the publisher.)
)
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 02:03:50 -0800
From: soma (soma mwt.net)
Subject: Re: Blackboard drawings by Steiner
Sune Nordwall wrote:
) Debra Snell wrote:
)
) ) Steiner was about as talented of an artist as he was a lecturer. The image
) ) looks like a first grader's rendering of cat tails.
)
) The unpretentious drawings were not meant as 'art', but as illustrations
) made in passing during lectures of what he tried to describe in the
) lectures.
)
Sharon:
Speaking strictly as an artist here, I will have to say that I like the
particular chalk drawings by Steiner shown on the site. I prefer them to the
kitsch depicted in Fletcher's book and the images copied into my daughter's
Waldorf lesson books. The aesthetic is much more pleasing to my sensibilities.
Much more artistic. I also like the presentation of the work and the selected
font is preferable to anthro font. I'd call this art. (I have visited this site
before and felt the same way.)
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 23:47:10 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Blackboard drawings by Steiner
)Black = the spiritual image of the dead
)Green = the dead image of the living
)Peach Blossom = the living image of the soul
Peach Blossom is the color of Caucasian skin, a very important color
for Goethe and Steiner.
)White = the spiritual image of the spirit"
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 00:18:03 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Blackboard drawings by Steiner
)Debra Snell wrote:
)
)) Steiner was about as talented of an artist as he was a lecturer. The image
)) looks like a first grader's rendering of cat tails.
Sune commented,
)The unpretentious drawings were not meant as 'art', but as illustrations
)made in passing during lectures of what he tried to describe in the
)lectures.
)
)The Berkeley Gallery's own introduction does not seem to agree with your
)opinion, viewing them also more fully fron an artist's perspective:
)
)http://www.bampfa.berkeley.edu/exhibits/steiner/intro.html
)'This exhibition will focus on the drawings' remarkable aesthetic
)dimensions, presenting selected examples in which Steiner's highly
)influential occult theories are expressed with astonishing beauty and
)vitality. Made with colored chalk on black paper, the drawings are
)highly gestural, often virtually abstract, and appear remarkably
)contemporary.'
This is art gallery puffery. The drawings were saved by devotees for
no other reason than that Steiner was their cult leader.
"Highly influential"? Nope.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 00:26:05 -0800
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Hermes
) ) No info on a 'Mercurious Press' can be easily found on the net.
)) It seems there existed a 'Mercurius Press', situated in London in the
) ) 80s' though.
After Sharon described it lust rose in my breast and I ordered my
copy from Amazon. Mine says it's from Mercury Arts Press, 1987.
English production. Not to be confused with the (American) Mercury
Press, which specializes in Anthroposophical Medicine but also has
some Waldorf items.
-Dan Dugan
------------------------------
End of waldorf-critics topica.com digest, issue 119
-- Topica Digest -- issue 120
Re: Steffi in Finland
By Speckraybill aol.com
Re: Blackboard drawings by Steiner
By winters_diana hotmail.com
Re: Hermes
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
Re: Blackboard drawings by Steiner
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
Way out (Re: Sune's links)
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
Re: Blackboard drawings by Steiner
By soma mwt.net
Re: Hermes
By soma mwt.net
Cape Ann Waldorf school, FAQ
By Sune.Nordwall home.se
Re: Way out (Re: Sune's links)
By dingman mindspring.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 07:05:32 EST
From: Speckraybill aol.com
Subject: Re: Steffi in Finland
--part1_12.719cb83.2788640c_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 01/05/2001 9:06:19 PM Pacific Standard Time,
canndw netzero.net writes:
) But the idea that everything's the same in all
) these schools is, to me, clearly untrue.
)
)
Maybe not every little thing is the same in all WE schools, but enough of the
"background noise" is present that I am not convinced that the "little
differences" make much difference in the end. I have heard too many
similarities (and not just from North American schools) about certain classes
of events to feel differently.
Paula
--part1_12.719cb83.2788640c_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
(HTML)(FONT FACE=arial,helvetica)(FONT SIZE=3 FAMILY="DECORATIVE" FACE="Tempus Sans ITC" LANG="0")In a message dated 01/05/2001 9:06:19 PM Pacific Standard Time, (BR)canndw netzero.net writes:
(BR)
(BR)(/FONT)(FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0")
(BR)(BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px")But the idea that everything's the same in all
(BR)these schools is, to me, clearly untrue.
(BR)
(BR)(/BLOCKQUOTE)
(BR)(/FONT)(FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="DECORATIVE" FACE="Tempus Sans ITC" LANG="0")
(BR)Maybe not every little thing is the same in all WE schools, but enough of the (BR)"background noise" is present that I am not convinced that the "little (BR)differences" make much difference in the end. I have heard too many (BR)similarities (and not just from North American schools) about certain classes (BR)of events to feel differently.
(BR)
(BR)Paula
(BR)
(BR)(/FONT)(/HTML)
--part1_12.719cb83.2788640c_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 12:18:30 -0000
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Blackboard drawings by Steiner
[Dan - on Steiner]
))Black = the spiritual image of the dead
))Green = the dead image of the living
))Peach Blossom = the living image of the soul
)Peach Blossom is the color of Caucasian skin, a very important color
)for Goethe and Steiner.
And the obligatory color for the kindergarten classroom walls.
Diana
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 11:16:25 +0100
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Hermes
soma mwt.net wrote:
) ) Sune:
) ) No info on a 'Mercurious Press' can be easily found on the net.
) ) It seems there existed a 'Mercurius Press', situated in London in the
) ) 80s' though.
)
) Sharon:
) Where did you find that little clue, off the net or someplace else?
Purely net info, in the order of 5-10 pages mentioning 'Mercurius
Press'.
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 11:25:20 +0100
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Blackboard drawings by Steiner
soma mwt.net wrote:
) Sharon:
) Speaking strictly as an artist here, I will have to say that I like the
) particular chalk drawings by Steiner shown on the site. I prefer them to the
) kitsch depicted in Fletcher's book and the images copied into my daughter's
) Waldorf lesson books.
In general - without being an artist - I would tend to agree with you,
from what little I've seen of 'anthroposophic art', still - to my
impression - mainly being in a childhood stage as a tradition.
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 14:52:59 +0100
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Way out (Re: Sune's links)
Debra wrote:
) Sune,
) Do you get paid to search out links for this list?
My wish ... (No.) ... must come from my MC in Scorpio ... ;-))
) You must spend hours a
) day doing this.
PLANS site bothers me in its - in my view - degree of seriously
misrepresenting Steiner, anthroposophy and waldorf education as I have
come to know and understand them over many years.
I'm completely for people forming their own judgement about them, but
think the site makes that very difficult in terms of providing a a basis
for that in a somewhat representative way.
I'm a slow thinker and it took me some 10 years before I felt that I
could get a more representative grasp of what it was about.
Much as I can understand the experiences and feelings that lie behind
the choice of material, and the unbalance between the development of the
anthroposophical society and the waldorf movement as one fruit of
anthroposophy, both in the US and world-wide, being one deeper reason
for
that situation and those experiences, I think PLANS site as such makes
it very difficult to come to some sort balanced judgement both of what
anthroposophy and waldorf education is about.
Trying to balance that in the discussion on the list takes quite some
time.
) I'm beginning to think you like us here. :+)
I think PLANS may have a point in relation to a number of waldorf
schools in US, partly founded and growing quickly, wildly and in an
unbalanced way, not yet doing the essence of waldorf education justice,
as I understand it.
To these imbalances belong, I think, not always answering to the
justified demand by PLANS to make the relation between anthroposophy and
waldorf education as a fruit of anthroposophy enough clear to
prospective parents.
Much as I may personally may enjoy and get satisfaction from the
discussing as such (now passing through my third form of 'puberty' at 50
... :-) ), I think that is a situation that needs to be solved.
One way of doing it would be if AWSNA recommended all its member school
to put something like what Neil's school, at Pine Hill, has put in their
information material to prospective parents as a description of the
"Philosophy of the School" (published at least Mon, 13 Apr 1998 and Tue,
19 Dec 2000 on this list).
Another way would be if AWSNA as such produced something in the same
direction, to be made available to prospective parents free of charge by
the schools. I think that would be feasible and possible to finance for
AWSNA.
As to waldorf schools being in principle or in general 'religious' in
such a way that it should be a violation of the spirit of the US
constitution, I seriously doubt that, and have tried to argue it on this
list, in 1998, I think, based on efforts to understand the issue from
available material on the net.
I think basic waldorf education - as _I_ know and understand it - tries
to do both the basic religious, artistic and scientific types of needs
in probably most humans justice in a balanced way, with a main focus on
meeting the non-specific 'religious' types of inner needs in preschool
year, more developing gradually through a focus on artistic types of
activities in the first seven grades and maturing into a focus on
cultivating a scientific attitude in the upper classes.
If that type of generally ordered efforts to meet the inner development
and needs of growing children should be in violation of present US law,
I think that is a problem that I have the confidence will be solved in a
good way in time, even if it should stand out as a possible problem at
present.
As to the the 'racism' issue, I think it is grossly over argued by some
critics, trying to make a case out of it in a way that has very little
bearing on life in waldorf schools in general.
What bothers me about PLANS lawsuit, is, as I have mentioned, the impact
it may have in terms of turning what I consider a good development also
in US in terms of publicly, with tax money that _eveybody_ pays,
financing the free choice of education by parents for their children,
independent of the parents economical situation or luck in getting
special grants as some sort of favour, the wrong way.
Such a process of supporting the development of freedom in cultural
life - to which education belongs, from _both_ improper dependence on
the state in terms of over steering the development of schools and the
contents of the education, as in public schools, and on economy, in
terms of being completely dependent on the parents' economy, grants or
the good will of companies as sponsors, as in private schools - is
taking place in a number of countries, which I think is very good.
I think carrying through the lawsuit would be saying: PLANS does not
trust parents to make the right choice of school for their children and
we only think that right should be available to people who can afford
it.
I think the justified demands that schools - independently of their
financing - not should be allowed to seriously mislead prospective
parents about their basic intentions or in any way foster extremists of
different kinds are fully possible to meet without _very_ much effort,
that waldorf schools don't do that and that the type of presentation at
Neil's schools shows how it is possible to present Waldorf education in
such a way that it quite well describes the nature and intentions of
waldorf schools in general.
... hm, some hours of work after brunch, ... time for linner :-)
Regards,
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 10:38:37 -0800
From: soma (soma mwt.net)
Subject: Re: Blackboard drawings by Steiner
Sune Nordwall wrote:
) soma mwt.net wrote:
)
) ) Sharon:
) ) Speaking strictly as an artist here, I will have to say that I like the
) ) particular chalk drawings by Steiner shown on the site. I prefer them to the
) ) kitsch depicted in Fletcher's book and the images copied into my daughter's
) ) Waldorf lesson books.
Sune:
) In general - without being an artist - I would tend to agree with you,
) from what little I've seen of 'anthroposophic art', still - to my
) impression - mainly being in a childhood stage as a tradition.
Sharon:
Historic moment.....Sune and I agree......Israel and Palestine have a little
bonding moment...but how and why on earth do you say that anthro art is still in
a childhood stage? Back to disagreeing.....I've never heard of other art
movements being in a childhood stage as a tradition.
When I went through the tubs of Waldorf lesson books that I was fortunate enough
to borrow, I was intrigued to find that some of the very old books, from the
early years of the school, revealed that the anthro aesthetic / 'art' police had
not yet arrived. I found a delightful *children's* drawing, rendered in *line* of
man in the pentagram. (The young child's drawing (in pencil crayons) was much
more expressive than the anthro picture of this same subject that my daughter
copied into her book.) I think Steiner's line drawings on the site are artistic,
expressive, fresh..... perhaps Waldorf should just let children express
themselves without controlling the aesthetics.
)
)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 11:41:15 -0800
From: soma (soma mwt.net)
Subject: Re: Hermes
Dan Dugan wrote:
) ) ) No info on a 'Mercurious Press' can be easily found on the net.
) )) It seems there existed a 'Mercurius Press', situated in London in the
) ) ) 80s' though.
)
) After Sharon described it lust rose in my breast and I ordered my
) copy from Amazon. Mine says it's from Mercury Arts Press, 1987.
) English production. Not to be confused with the (American) Mercury
) Press, which specializes in Anthroposophical Medicine but also has
) some Waldorf items.
)
Sharon:
Thank you Dan for clearing up the matter of "Mercury Arts Press" once and
for all.
I look forward to a report on what you think of the book.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 21:10:13 +0100
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Cape Ann Waldorf school, FAQ
A page on how Cape Ann Waldorf school answers some Frequently Asked
Questions can be found at http://www.capeannwaldorf.org/caws-faq.html
I think it quite well describes the relation between anthroposophy and
waldorf education, even though it is somewhat shorter that the page on
the 'Philosophy of the school'
(http://www.jlc.net/~faiman/waldorf/handbook_philosophy.html) at Neil's
site on WE (http://www.jlc.net/~faiman/waldorf/)
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 23:11:45 -0500
From: Newpaul (dingman mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: Way out (Re: Sune's links)
Sune Nordwall wrote:
)
) PLANS site bothers me in its - in my view - degree of seriously
) misrepresenting Steiner, anthroposophy and waldorf education as I have
) come to know and understand them over many years.
NP
This is a personal observation and is not in any way related to the
truth. I can say that it is only through the plans site and this list
that I have come know anything about the real Waldorf Schools. There is
so much that is hidden from everyone but the teachers. This is part of
the problem for you too Sune. Even you as an active anthroposophist
have been keep in the dark about much that goes on with the teachers and
their training and occult initiation.
)
Sune
) I'm a slow thinker and it took me some 10 years before I felt that I
) could get a more representative grasp of what it was about.
NP
This probably has much more to do with the hidden secretive nature of
Waldorf than with your intellectual ability to grasp the truth.
)
Sune
) Much as I can understand the experiences and feelings that lie behind
) the choice of material, and the unbalance between the development of the
) anthroposophical society and the waldorf movement as one fruit of
) anthroposophy, both in the US and world-wide, being one deeper reason
) for
) that situation and those experiences, I think PLANS site as such makes
) it very difficult to come to some sort balanced judgement both of what
) anthroposophy and waldorf education is about.
)
) Trying to balance that in the discussion on the list takes quite some
) time.
NP
This is a very vague, very grey opinion. If we just studied the facts,
do you think you could arrive at a conclusion based on the evidence
presented. You cannot deny the facts. Either you accept what has been
presented or you _choose_ to question it , but on what grounds? Are you
sure you are refusing to accept the evidence because of your own
personal rigid convictions?
Isn't it strange that there are no other anthros from the US on this
list defending the nawsa and Waldorf schools?
Sune)
) ) I'm beginning to think you like us here. :+)
)
) I think PLANS may have a point in relation to a number of waldorf
) schools in US, partly founded and growing quickly, wildly and in an
) unbalanced way, not yet doing the essence of waldorf education justice,
) as I understand it.
)
) To these imbalances belong, I think, not always answering to the
) justified demand by PLANS to make the relation between anthroposophy and
) waldorf education as a fruit of anthroposophy enough clear to
) prospective parents.
)
) Much as I may personally may enjoy and get satisfaction from the
) discussing as such (now passing through my third form of 'puberty' at 50
) ... :-) ), I think that is a situation that needs to be solved.
)
) One way of doing it would be if AWSNA recommended all its member school
) to put something like what Neil's school, at Pine Hill, has put in their
) information material to prospective parents as a description of the
) "Philosophy of the School" (published at least Mon, 13 Apr 1998 and Tue,
) 19 Dec 2000 on this list).
NP
I have studied the Philosophy of the School brochure and it is better
than most explanations, but it is still only communicating 1/2 of the
truth. It does not define the active link between Anthroposophy and
Waldorf. It does not tell us that all of the Waldorf teachers are
trained exclusively in Anthro seminaries and trained using Steiner's
Occult Science as their foundation. It does not tell us that the entire
curriculum is based on the religious and occult foundations of
Anthroposophy. It does not admit that anthroposophy is a religion and
Waldorf SChools are parochial schools for its beliefs. It does not
mention karma or explain the relationship of Steiner's developmental
approach to education with his theories of spiritual development as
defined by Anthroposophy. Where can a parent get the whole picture of
Steiner's educational process and development? I think Plans site has
more information in a single place than anywhere else. At least there
should be a single book that gives the big picture for perspective
parents in an open way. Since the nawsa won't provide it, maybe Sharon
will. I am sure her documentary will be very thorough.
)