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-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2374 --------------
001 - Rechomba cs.com - Re: "better" people?
002 - Rechomba cs.com - Re: joining cults/was Mr. Nice to Mr. Kopp
003 - Rechomba cs.com - Re: Long lived butt-fly
004 - Rechomba cs.com - Re: Rose/autism
005 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Singer
006 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Long lived butt-fly
007 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: My last post here
008 - BarbaraWB aol.com - Re: RE: condoning violence
009 - "George Aspbury" (aspbury - RE: joining cults/was Mr. Nice to Mr. Kopp
010 - BarbaraWB aol.com - religions/cults
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2374.1 ---------------
From: Rechomba cs.com
Subject: Re: "better" people?
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 00:45:00 EDT
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In a message dated 6/9/00 5:48:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time, BarbaraWB aol.com
writes:
) One of the psychological aspects of WE that interests me - the stuff of
) another aritcle than the first general one I'm working on is how/why the
) "movement" draws
) so many hippies and 60s holdouts - whose motto was pretty much - Question
) Authority. I have found that profile a lot in the schools I've seen....
I've noticed this too. I just love irony.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2374.2 ---------------
From: Rechomba cs.com
Subject: Re: joining cults/was Mr. Nice to Mr. Kopp
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 01:18:10 EDT
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In a message dated 6/8/00 8:21:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
aspbury1 worldnet.att.net writes:
) I see the loss of freedom to think for themselves as a sad
) part of cults. However, I do feel that cults and religions
) exist because people often want to willingly give up their
) right to think for themselves. We should not judge someone
) who finds meaning in giving up a degree of free thought to
) an ideology.
Yes. Ignorance is bliss:" Really Hans, once you get the hang of this
goosestep thing it's really not so hard. MMMMmmmm...you smell that? Someone's
got a barbeque going.What, you can't smell that!?"
Sorry. Just a degree of free thought to an ideology that I find
meaningful.
Ray
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2374.3 ---------------
From: Rechomba cs.com
Subject: Re: Long lived butt-fly
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 01:41:39 EDT
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Thankyou Sune for the clarification. As you have gathered, I am sensitive to
this subject. The essay on two sciences sounds like a good read. Relates to
Jung's "Alchemy" that I am currently reading for its own sake but to also
grasp some of Steiner's ideas that have alchemical origins. I had to put
Philosophy of Freedom down for awhile mostly due to Steiner's tendency to
minimilize and misrepresent contrary arguments.
I'll check out your website. Ray.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2374.4 ---------------
From: Rechomba cs.com
Subject: Re: Rose/autism
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 02:36:07 EDT
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Dear Rose,
Please excuse this belated response. The current issue of Mothering
Magazine (yes, I read it) has a section on autism that you might find
empowering. I found reference to the Options Institute's homebased Son-Rise
program, which you might already be familiar with. If not:www.option.org
I used to work with the developmentally disabled. I know first hand the
prejudice you must experience.It raised my brow when you alluded to the
teachers in your school ignoring your child altogether. Is this just a
typical prejudicial response of a few bad teachers ,or simply unqualified or
uncertain of their abilities in addressing his special needs? You mentioned
that your waldorf school is big. Does it have sufficient resources to
accomodate your child?
At the risk of being a gadfly, might this be a deeper reflection on some
convoluted anthroposophic notion of incomplete incarnation or karmic
consequence that cannot be remedied?
I wonder. Ray
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2374.5 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Singer
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 00:51:15 -0700
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References: (200006091816.LAA22075 lists1.best.com)
(200006100142.SAA00917 lists1.best.com)
(200006101156.EAA29243 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200006101156.EAA29243 lists1.best.com)
DUGAN
) ) One of the negative reviews says:
) )
) ) "This book is hysteria trying to dress up as science. I think that it
) ) speaks more about the author than of the groups which are attacked
) ) within the pages. A more telling title might be, "Witches in Our
) ) Midst", (or maybe "Communists in Our Midst")."
) )
) ) Sounds like the rhetoric we hear on this mailing list.
NORDWALL
)You left out the long introducing motivation that ended with your quote.
)Without agreeing with it in full, I think it deserves reading to get the
)fuller picture of the review:
)
)********************************************
)
)The first thing that struck me while reading this book is that Margaret
)Singer has serious trouble differentiating. According to this book, all
)new religions are the same as Charles Manson, which is the same as some bad
)experience some person had, which is the same as Hare Krishna, which is the
)same as Korean War POWs, which is the same as the Bhagwan Rajnesh, etc,
)etc.
DUGAN
I didn't bother to quote the whole rant because that is not what
Singer says in the book, rather that is the cult apologist reviewer's
position. I just quoted the concluding paragraph to show how
polarized the reviews were.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2374.6 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Long lived butt-fly
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 01:01:34 -0700
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References: (200006091320.GAA18090 lists1.best.com)
(200006101156.EAA29251 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200006101156.EAA29251 lists1.best.com)
Sune, you wrote,
)During my training as a waldorf teacher some 26-28 years ago, the medical
)authorities in Sweden prosecuted the producers of anthroposophical medicine
)in Sweden and a number of anthroposophical MD:s, connected with the company
)in question. The central issue during the trial, that I skipped class to
)follow, was if the practice of anthroposophical medicine could be said to
)be done in accordance with "science and scrutinized experience".
The responsible position to take.
)It became clear during the trial that the primary concern of the medical
)authorities _not_ was if and to what extent the patients treated by the
)doctors became healthy again or not, but the extent to which it was
)possible to come to some sort of scientific thought-model of the how
)anthroposophical medicines worked.
Many medicines and techniques in modern medicine lack theoretical
justification. If something works in scientific clinical trials, it
can be approved even if the mechanism is not understood. In the case
of Anthroposophical medicine, -both- the clinical trials and the
theory are lacking.
)To the extent that the representative of the authorities did not find it
)possible to understand (in terms of scientific thought models) _how_ the
)effects of anthroposophical medicine came about, they wanted to prohibit
)the use of anthroposophical medicine (mostly plant medicines, that in one
)or another form have been used for centuries) by the fully trained MD:s,
)even if the patients got better or well when treated with them.
You are obfuscating the lack of clinical trials. Sure, some patients
will get better, and some worse. Without valid trials, showing off
the successes is meaningless.
)Seeing the basic uninterest of the representatives of the highest medical
)authorities in Sweden in the _actual_ health of patients, in relation to
)their own understanding, at least in thought model form, of _how_ the
)patients got better (_actually_ prioritizing thought models before actual
)empirical experience and the actual health of people) really made me lose
)confidence in them as authorities.
I suspect you are distorting the policies of the Swedish medical
authorities to make it sound like Anthroposophy was a victim of
prejudice. Demanding clinical trials isn't prejudice, it's
responsibility.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2374.7 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: My last post here
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 02:01:36 -0700
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References: (200006092038.NAA10604 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200006092038.NAA10604 lists1.best.com)
At 4:35 AM -0700 6/10/00, Felix . wrote:
)This is Felix...
)
)I do appreciate the existence of PLANS site as it facilitated my
)decision to take my kid out of the Waldorf School and opened my eyes
)wide. It made me understand what was wrong and why it bothered me.
You're welcome.
)Looking , however, closer at this site and after Dan's booting me
)today, I realized that it is about a legal fight to admit
)that WS are religious schools in Cali and conbsequently in the US,
)which is not my fight as it will last for tens of years.
We chose the suit as the most powerful and comprehensive solution we
could imagine to the problem of publicly-funded Waldorf schools.
Unfortunately, the wheels of justice grind slowly. We're in it for
the long haul. I'd be interested in hearing what you propose to do as
"your fight."
)I might not have known the rules here on the list, but now that I
)know them I do not care to be here anymore. I appreciate your
)numerous emails and compelling private stories of Waldorf sickness
)which I have read with tears in my eyes. I thank you all. And I feel
)for you.
)It is a forum for open academic discussion lasting for 9 years now
)with no apparent effect on the Waldorf Schools system whatsoever on
)a grand scale.
I disagree. Public perception that Waldorf is controversial continues to grow.
)The Waldorf Schools recently has given away to the parrents an
)article entitled
)"Schooling The Imagination" in which they inform about PLANS and Dan Dugan.
)This way when parrents get told by some newly awakened parrent like me
)about Dugan and his site, they just shrug their shoulders and say:
)"OH, that Dugan guy...yeah I read about it..just another point of
)view, yoo know, it's America, dude".
Of course that's how they try to dismiss us. From the number of
parents who contact us, yourself for example, I suspect the
information we provide often overrides the effect of those
dismissals. Even when it doesn't, it plants a seed. A couple of years
later when something happens, a light will go on. "Oh, that's what
they meant...it is like a cult!"
)And thats that and they dont wanna hear anything anymore.
)And keep their kids at Waldorf and wonder what da fuck is wrong with
)their kid.
)That is exactly how PLANS is perceived by the cultist.
)They are not afraid of PLANS anymore.
Don't be so sure.
)Dan went to the lecture with Shwartz, sat among the cultists, Eugene
)Shwartz introduced you,
)and voiced agreement with you, presenting you in a friendly way to
)the believers un-demonizing you.
)The result of this is that they are not concerned about PLANS anymore,
)and the second result of this is the firing of Schwatrz.
Your analysis seems contradictory. If the issue is dead now, why was
it necessary to punish Schwartz?
)They do not fear you and Shwartz is out.
)The watered down discussions on the list allowing the proponents of fascism to
)present their points here without strong and fierce rebuttals make
)the discussion useless. Useless.
Because you can't call Apsbury "Assbury" the discussion is useless?
In my opinion, name-calling discussions are useless, so we'll have to
disagree on that.
)While you discuss the idiosyncracies of Anthroposophy, children are
)getting mentally abused,
)parrents are duped for money going through endless anxieties as to
)what is happening.
How do you propose to help?
)This list is elitist in the sense that it is closed to the public
)and debates are going in the
)closed circle among the ones who know.
Excuse me? The list is advertised on the PLANS web page, and several
new people subscribe every week. We've managed to keep on for years
with open public enrollment, and I'm proud of that.
)It is hard to find on the internet,
When PLANS started there were very few Waldorf and Anthroposophy
sites on the web, and about 15% of hits from a search for "Waldorf"
would be from PLANS. Over the years Waldorf has proliferated on the
web, and our proportion of hits has dropped significantly. A test I
just did came up with about 4% PLANS hits after winnowing out the
hotel, salad, electronics, golf and Maryland Waldorfs. I don't think
we can win with sheer numbers, but we can target editors who select
from the web. I checked Yahoo's education methods page, and under
Waldorf PLANS is still prominently listed by their editors, as it has
been for years.
)and once it is found,
)they say: "Ohh...it's that Dugan guy"...thats it.
That's what they hope is happening. But I don't think so.
)Not being able to fight the jerks who support this Waldorf bulshit
)is in DoFs favour.
)Good job Dan on that.
)Consider this a win for the proponents of the sick Steiner Cult.
Consider what, your not being able to make fun of somebody's name
"not being able to fight"? You exaggerate the importance of your
petty tiff.
)When finally maybe in the next ten years of fruitless discusiions
)after endless appeals in court in the PLANS local small case, the 2
)public Waldorf schools your fight is about get closed and the
)remaining 98 will operate unhindered in the US, I will be long over
)it and the W school will be forgotten. And than if the heat gets
)tough in 20 years they will declare they are a religion. I dont
)wanna spend next 20 years on that.
The PLANS board has the patience and fortitude to do what needs to be done.
)I have better, more pleasant things to do.
)It looks as it is not my fight. I fought fascists and communists and
)ultra religious
)freeks. I know what works. It certainly was not discussing Marx' or
)Hitler's books that defeated them.
We haven't yet heard from you what your idea of an effective tactic would be.
)Once again I appreciate the existence of PLANS.
)Cary on your work.
)I will not join PLANS or let PLANS use my case in their local fight
)as it is not my fight as I see it now.
I'm not clear as to what your fight is.
)Our kid is out of school and we are happy.
)We will go about our life as we always did.
)Doing our thing and forgetting about this nightmare.
)We are out of this fight and we will forget it soon.
)I will not fight for all the kids remaining in Waldorf as I see no
)strong allies in this. The available and accepted methods are
)ineffective. While Anthros are using lies and deception in their
)arrogance we are supoposed to kiss their ass.
)No, thank you.
The person you were insulting is not an Anthroposophist. Simple
courtesy is far from ass-kissing. You sound like a case of sour
grapes.
)I am not going to do it alone as it requires time
)and I would rather spend it with my family.
)I will not let it consume my life in endless discussions with
)unpredictable willy-nilly allies on my side.
)
)Academic Discussion is not the way to fight sick cults and mind
)control and it leads nowhere.
)
)As I admit and it is true that while some parrents will log on
)to this list and pull their kids out of Waldorf crap, the amount
)of single withdrawal cases is minimal in comparison with thousands
)of numbed mediocre zombies Waldorf education will turn out into the
)society yearly.
)
)So when maybe in a few years from now we will hear a 30 second
)announcement in local news
)about the closing of two schools in Cali due to 20 years of PLANS
)fight and Dan will get his 15 seconds of fame while his statement
)will be cut in the middle by news editors, the Waldorf cult will
)function freely due to the poinless discusions with the designated
)Obersturmanredaktors of Anthroposophy.
)And maybe one day in few years I will pass by a school with a sign
)saying: "The Rudolf Steiner Sect Of Antroposophy Waldorf School" and
)the name of Dan Dugan will come to mind together wit a shiver down
)my spine.
)And I will realize that he won HIS fight.
Like the Anthros, you're trying to blame it all on me! Please see the
PLANS board of directors list on the web site. I couldn't, and
wouldn't, do this alone. You're just pissed at me because I wouldn't
let you insult people on the list. Whether I was right or wrong to
can you, PLANS is a lot bigger than Dan Dugan.
)I wish you all the best in your attempt to convince the DoFs in
)academic discussions
)and making parrents aware of the truth. As some will dismiss Dugan
)and PLANS as just another point of view in a democratized American
)society, some might see the light and save themselves and their
)children.
)I do appreciate the freedoms in America. But I also see how that is
)getting used by sick master jerks in here.
)I lost the conviction that Waldorf practices can be exposed to the
)nation via PLANS,
)as there is no punch or bite allowed here to the opponents views.
You haven't been around here very long, to be able to make such a
summary judgment. This list is one of the things we do.
)I went through this before, and when my allies turn on me trying to
)tie one of my hands behind my back due to the so called Political
)Correctness, I turn tail.
)The DofS are who they are and should be battled personally.
Personally, I think that's about the least effective thing you can
do, but maybe you'll prove me wrong.
)It is real people that abuse the kids mentally at Waldorf, not
)quotes from Steiner bible.
)It is the real people that should be attacked.
)They will twist your words back at you and the eternal stalemate appears.
)As I said: Nazism and Communism and Religious Fundamentalism had not
)been defeated by
)endless politically nice fancy shmancy academic discussions.
)
)I thank you again for allowing me to be one parrent that saw the
)light thanks to the PLANS site. I hope there will be more.
)
)I do not think Dan Dugan has any experience in fighting the bad guys
)the real ways,
)as people in the US never had any totalitarian army invade their
)country and smash their kids' heads against the wall of their own
)house.
Dramatic images, but that's not what Waldorf is doing, is it?
Comparing it to monstrous behaviour will reduce your credibility.
)He tries to do it the democratic academic way. That is the way in America.
)Wars are fought on tv.
)Totalitarianism happens only somewhere else for the tv viewers here.
)
)That is why jerks like David Duke and KKK can still exist in the USA.
There are active neo-Nazi movements in other countries, too.
)That is why a black man in Alabama still gives way to a white man.
)That is why kids in high schools wear swastikas as jewelry
)with no clue what a swastika means.
Same goes for German kids. Are you aware of the anti-Semitism in
France and Russia? I don't think it's fair to flog the U.S.A. on
these issues.
)I know where I live.
)
)This Felix guy is out and over this fight.
)Once again, thanks for this opportunity to see the light.
)Happy memories.
)
)Felix
Y'all come back some time, we'll be here.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2374.8 ---------------
From: BarbaraWB aol.com
Subject: Re: RE: condoning violence
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 09:31:52 EDT
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In a message dated 6/9/00 9:48:51 PM, dan dandugan.com writes:
(( I think he had a megalomaniacal fantasy of being the "philosopher
king" enthroned in Dornach. In this fantasy, world leaders would come
to him for advice. When he was rebuffed during World War I, ignored
by the politicians he sent tracts to, he declared that Anthroposophy
had missed its chance (guilt-tripping the devotees) and the only way
now was to prepare souls for future epochs through an education
system. ))
I'd love the source of this, Dan. My work in progress will concern general
alerts to the general public, but I have a special interest in RS role in
pre-war Germany.
Thanks,
Barbara
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2374.9 ---------------
From: "George Aspbury" (aspbury1 worldnet.att.net)
Subject: RE: joining cults/was Mr. Nice to Mr. Kopp
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 08:51:49 -0500
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In-Reply-To: (200006110518.WAA06484 lists1.best.com)
)
)
) In a message dated 6/8/00 8:21:50 PM Pacific
) Daylight Time,
) aspbury1 worldnet.att.net writes:
)
) ) I see the loss of freedom to think for
) themselves as a sad
) ) part of cults. However, I do feel that cults
) and religions
) ) exist because people often want to willingly
) give up their
) ) right to think for themselves. We should not
) judge someone
) ) who finds meaning in giving up a degree of
) free thought to
) ) an ideology.
(ray)
) Yes. Ignorance is bliss:" Really Hans, once you
) get the hang of this
) goosestep thing it's really not so hard.
) MMMMmmmm...you smell that? Someone's
) got a barbeque going.What, you can't smell that!?"
) Sorry. Just a degree of free thought to an
) ideology that I find
) meaningful.
Maybe my brain is not up to speed this morning but could you
clarify what you meant in this post. As I read it you find
that ignorance is bliss.?.?
The analogy you give only goes so far. The problem with
ignorance lies in the subjectivity of it. A person may say
they don't know what is going on but they could very well
have a good idea about which they claim ignorance. This
excuse 'ignorance' is one that dose not fly very far in the
legal realm. It has been shown in courts, from lower
kangaroo to international courts of law, that ignorance of
the law is no excuse for actions deemed illegal. I agree
with this notion in most cases, not all.
If the analogy that you give is in reference to the Nazis
(goosestep) and the crematoriums (barbeque) it comes across
as very insensitive. Using the term barbeque in reference
to the cremation of millions of innocent people is very ill
indeed. I hope I misread this one.
George Aspbury
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2374.10 ---------------
From: BarbaraWB aol.com
Subject: religions/cults
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 09:54:45 EDT
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In a message dated 6/9/00 5:26:16 PM, Sune.Nordwall home.se writes:
(( The problem of describing or defining criteria for "cults" and "religion"
has been discussed earlier on this list. ))
A cult is about worshiping a mortal or image and having answers. Religion is
about worshiping God and pursuing questions.
Barbara
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2374 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2375 --------------
001 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
002 - "George Aspbury" (aspbury - RE: religions/cults
003 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
004 - BarbaraWB aol.com - Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
005 - Rechomba cs.com - Re: joining cults/was Mr. Nice to Mr. Kopp
006 - Rose Alford (roseal telep - Re: Rose/autism
007 - Rechomba cs.com - Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
008 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: RE: condoning violence
009 - "George Aspbury" (aspbury - RE: joining cults/was Mr. Nice to Mr. Kopp
010 - BarbaraWB aol.com - re: numerous quotes/sources
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2375.1 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 14:06:06 GMT
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I have to respond to this strongly. Hitting students is more than a "mistake
in a new situation." In what other job would you be allowed to continue if
you had hit someone during your first few days on the job? In no other type
of employment situation would committees be sitting around discussing your
"philosophy" and trying to find a way to rationalize violence. They would
just tell you to clear out your desk and leave now, probably with a security
escort.
I have to agree with others who have written since this saying what Sune
wrote appeared to justify or excuse the teacher's behavior. You may not have
meant it that way, Sune, but it sure came across as a knee-jerk "defend the
teacher" mentality.
And it is deep denial to give the benefit of the doubt that this was a "one
time" mistake. If someone's *first* solution to stress and difficult
situations is to lash out, do you really think he or she will not do it
again? It is likely to get worse, not better.
Diana
)From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
)Reply-To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
)To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
)Subject: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
)Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 12:23:55 +0200
)
)Michael Kopp wrote:
)
) ) We know what you meant, Sune. We all want to smack our kids at times.
) ) Some of us do it -- and we usually regret it for the rest of our
) ) lives.
)
)The music teacher came as a new teacher to a class of 13-year old kids. The
)pupils tested his limits and made fun of him. He got angry and slapped some
)of them. It was a mistake in a to him new situation that he had not yet
)learnt to handle and he probably regretted it. It was a one-time mistake at
)the beginning of his work at the school.
)
) ) But for it to happen institutionally is a matter of law.
)
)"Institutionally" - "in an institution" - One parent reported the teacher
)to the school and a legal authority, he was put under tutorship(?) and he
)will probably not do it again if he continued teching. The normal social
)network structures of society and in the school took care of it.
)
)"Institutionally" - "as part of a policy at an institution" - My impression
)is that problems of dicipline not are handled very differently at waldorf
)schools than at other schools. I also have a hunch that research would show
)that there in general is lesser violence at waldorf schools than at schools
)in general. Two weeks after the report, the school had a since long planned
)weekend conference on the problem of "authority and punishment".
)
)Disciplinary problems are widespread. A report on TV yesterday (here in
)Sweden) said that (as far as I remember) in the order of 60 % of teachers
)at schools feel stressed by their work. Maybe someone else on the list can
)give more details.
)
)Sune Nordwall
)Stockholm, Sweden
)
)http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
)- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
)EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
)
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2375.2 ---------------
From: "George Aspbury" (aspbury1 worldnet.att.net)
Subject: RE: religions/cults
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 10:05:26 -0500
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)
)
) In a message dated 6/9/00 5:26:16 PM,
) Sune.Nordwall home.se writes:
)
) (( The problem of describing or defining criteria
) for "cults" and "religion"
) has been discussed earlier on this list. ))
)
) A cult is about worshiping a mortal or image and
) having answers. Religion is
) about worshiping God and pursuing questions.
)
) Barbara
)
Dose Waldorf/Anthroposophy fit this model?
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2375.3 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 18:26:32 +0200
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Diana Winters wrote:
) It is likely to get worse, not better.
Quite agree; In few years, the new teacher will likely kill his first
victim. Why not put him in the chair right away? People learn and change?
No way!
Vive la misanthropie! The only true basis for life!
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2375.4 ---------------
From: BarbaraWB aol.com
Subject: Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 14:01:21 EDT
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In a message dated 6/11/00 10:10:50 AM, winters_diana hotmail.com writes:
(( If someone's *first* solution to stress and difficult
situations is to lash out, do you really think he or she will not do it
again? It is likely to get worse, not better.
Diana
))
I agree completely. When I was in practice the lion's share of my work was
w/ domestic violence. Violent outbursts are a (pathetic/tragic) way of
getting and keeping control. It cannot be tolerated. People who are
violent, especially to those younger and/or weaker, have the most fragile
egos around. They do not get better.
Any parent who would keep their child in this perpetrator's class is guilty
of child abuse as well.
Incidentally, at the school I worked in I realized that when the staff and
parents weren't walking around like their water supply was full of Prozac,
they were in a rage. No middle ground. Scary.
B.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2375.5 ---------------
From: Rechomba cs.com
Subject: Re: joining cults/was Mr. Nice to Mr. Kopp
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 22:37:52 EDT
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In a message dated 6/11/00 7:02:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
aspbury1 worldnet.att.net writes:
George writes:
)The analogy you give only goes so far. The problem with
) ignorance lies in the subjectivity of it. A person may say
) they don't know what is going on but they could very well
) have a good idea about which they claim ignorance.
You get a gold star George. My analogy has everything to do with denial
as willful ignorance.
) If the analogy that you give is in reference to the Nazis
) (goosestep) and the crematoriums (barbeque) it comes across
) as very insensitive. Using the term barbeque in reference
) to the cremation of millions of innocent people is very ill
) indeed. I hope I misread this one.
No, you did not misread. I am not suprised that you fail to grasp my point.
My "black" humor is insensitive if you see it as an end in itself. I use it
to elucidate the possible conclusions, albeit extreme, to your statement:
"We should not judge someone who finds meaning in giving up a degree of free
thought to an ideology"....unless, of course, it effects millions of innocent
people.
What sort of "meaning", at the expense of free thought, can you derive
from an ideology George? Do you subscribe to the Socratic axiom: "An
unexamined life is not worth living" ? Or do you sacrifice intellectual
integrity for the comforting bliss of the unexamined...and in the dark, set
the stage for inhumanity ,denying its consequences?
Cause and effect.
Ray
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2375.6 ---------------
From: Rose Alford (roseal teleport.com)
Subject: Re: Rose/autism
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 20:30:05 -0700
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At 02:36 AM 6/11/00 EDT, you wrote:
)Dear Rose,
)
) Please excuse this belated response. The current issue of Mothering
)Magazine (yes, I read it) has a section on autism that you might find
)empowering. I found reference to the Options Institute's homebased Son-Rise
)program, which you might already be familiar with. If not:www.option.org
) I used to work with the developmentally disabled. I know first hand the
)prejudice you must experience.It raised my brow when you alluded to the
)teachers in your school ignoring your child altogether. Is this just a
)typical prejudicial response of a few bad teachers ,or simply unqualified or
)uncertain of their abilities in addressing his special needs? You mentioned
)that your waldorf school is big. Does it have sufficient resources to
)accomodate your child?
) At the risk of being a gadfly, might this be a deeper reflection on some
)convoluted anthroposophic notion of incomplete incarnation or karmic
)consequence that cannot be remedied?
Yes, this is what the Waldorf people say, they think he is not completely
incarnated, but maybe Steiner had some tips for trying to complete the
incarnation. Afterall, did he not do something called "curative
Education." Ha ha ha.
My son has been getting behavioral therapy since he was 3.5 years old. He
has made a ton of progress, but he still has a ways to go. He could be
included with completely incarnated kids (we call them nuerologically
typical kids in the autism world) with a very good aide.
the problem with the waldorf school though is that the classes are so big
starting in the grades. My daughter's first grade class was a shocking 32
children which I felt was incredible for a "private school." However, I
found out that they prefer large classes.
I considered putting him in their K for preschool, but the K teacher was
too spacy for me. She seemed to resist him being in the class even with
his aide. When she described the class to me, it sounded like it was just
a bunch of kids hanging out doing whatever they pleased which is okay for
NT kids, but not for kids with autism.
I doubt that Waldorf is the right place for him anyway. I would like to
place him in a small class, we do have a smaller Waldorf school (an
initiative called Cedarwood School) that had opened up recently on my side
of town, but I have not checked it out. They are much smaller than the
Portland Waldorf school and have smaller classes.
In the meanwhile I am working on developing a school for children with
disabilities called Child Development School of Oregon (www.cdso.org) which
uses state of the art behavioral analysis techniques to teach children with
Developmental disabilities and severe learning disabled children as well.
This school needs a lot of money though and it is very hard to do fund
raising for it. I feel very little sympathy for the financial needs of the
Waldorf school when I consider my son's school which is actually helping 12
children who were given nothing in the public schools that was any use.
One child who came to CDSO at 8 had the skills of an infant less than 12
months of age after being in the Portland Public Warehousing program for
over five years. In the six months he has been at CDSO he has made more
progress than he did in five years in the warehousing program. This is
interesting don't you think. The warehousing programs are not so cheap
either, but they do nothing for most severely disabled children including
children with autism.
Education is something that has always been considered an "art," but in
truth, there are some methodolgies, such as Direct Instruction that have
scientific data to show their effectiveness. All these proven
methodologies are based on the behavioral sciences. Well, duh, learning is
a purely behavioral thing, so what do you expect. I feel that the Waldorf
based methodology does not fall under this category. The only thing that
can be said for it is that the curriculum is ancient and so it has a
history of success behind it. For children with learning difficulties
though, it is not going to correct this. I see many children tutored in
the school library. at least they are making progress though.
Everything is very difficult once you have a disabled child. Choices are
very limited and sometimes you just have to create your own thing.
As far as the article in Mothering Magazine, I am quite aware of that
article and they did a nice job summarizing all the different things you
can try. But what it boils down to is the only thing that there is which
has data based research for autism is the applied behavioral analysis
(ABA). All those other things are just anecdotal hit or miss. I have
considered trying and have tried many different things with my son, but the
ABA is what keeps him making the progress he has been making.
I know about four children who no longer meet the diagnosis of autism
because they had two to three years of ABA. Unfortunately, since ABA is
very expensive hardly any autistic children receive enough of it to do any
good. My family has been able to pay the cruel expense of ABA, but we
can't do it forever. It costs about 40 to 50k a year, and the public
schools are not to thrilled about paying without you taking them to court.
It is very hard to win in court here in Oregon due to the corruption of the
hearing officers. they are paid by the Oregon Department of Education to
always find in favor of school districts. So even if federal law requires
that the schools offer a program where a child can make meaningful
progress, the state of Oregon refuses to comply. Many families are now
appealing to the federal courts because of this, but we are talking
thousands of dollars in legal fees. The federal law that requires public
schools to educate special needs children is called IDEA, for Individuals
with Disabilities Education Act. It was just reauthorized in 1997, but it
is a very weak law and the feds are not enforcing it. So many special need
kids just get something that amounts to warehousing, which is costing the
taxpayers millions, but the children will not be taxpaying citizens when
they leave the system and will instead be a burden on society for their
lifetimes. the whole system is a cruel joke on everyone, the taxpayers,
the families and especially the children.
One thing that is really scary these days that I have to mention is the
severe incerease in the number of children with DDs such as autism. Autism
and its other related Perevasive Developmental Disorders has increased so
rapidly that when I look at children younger than three I worry for them.
We don't know what is causing this rapid increase in autism, but it makes
me very worried. Oregon went from about 20 kids with autism in its school
system in 1984 to almost 3000 in 1999. California has put out a report
stating that its Developmental Disability Department reports a whoppig 273%
increase in autism rates in the last decade. Again, no one knows why this
is happening but many people are pointing to things like the MMR
vaccination that children started to receive in the late 80's. Many people
claim there child was developing normally until the vaccination for MMR was
received between 15 and 18 months of age. Then they went downhill into the
abyss of autism. I think that is very interesting. The Centers for Disease
Control and the pharm. companies are poo pooing the theory and telling the
parents they are nuts for even thinking that vaccinations can cause autism,
but yet what is the expalnation for the severe increases in the rates of
autistic related disorders?
There are some pockets in the country where children can get effective
services, mostly in the northeastern US. In the NY Times there was an
article about how people are moving to certain parts of NJ, NY, MA and
Conneticut to get effective services for their children with autism.
Well sorry for the rant, but the more people who know about this, the
better off we all are. As far as waldorf is concerned, I can personally
take it or leave it. I have nothing against the school and if my daughter
was happy with it, I would not have even gone looking for this list. I
just want her to be happy with her schooling. She has learned many things
that I would not have been able to teach her myself, knitting, drawing,
violin, etc etc. However, the main thing I believe is that she finds it
really boring. The day is boring for her, the repetitive singing of songs
and the endless copying from the board are her major complaints.
) I wonder. Ray
)
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2375.7 ---------------
From: Rechomba cs.com
Subject: Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 00:00:01 EDT
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In a message dated 6/11/00 9:39:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
Sune.Nordwall home.se writes:
) Quite agree; In few years, the new teacher will likely kill his first
) victim. Why not put him in the chair right away? People learn and change?
) No way!
Sure Sune, I'll go place my children in the hands of an adult who is known
to have struck another child. Better yet, maybe I'll walk down the street and
see if that convicted child molester will babysit for me.
Yes some people can learn and change, but not with my children.
Ray
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2375.8 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: RE: condoning violence
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 23:40:42 -0700
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At 9:31 AM -0400 6/11/00, BarbaraWB aol.com wrote:
)In a message dated 6/9/00 9:48:51 PM, dan dandugan.com writes:
)
)(( I think he had a megalomaniacal fantasy of being the "philosopher
)king" enthroned in Dornach. In this fantasy, world leaders would come
)to him for advice. When he was rebuffed during World War I, ignored
)by the politicians he sent tracts to, he declared that Anthroposophy
)had missed its chance (guilt-tripping the devotees) and the only way
)now was to prepare souls for future epochs through an education
)system. ))
)
)I'd love the source of this, Dan. My work in progress will concern general
)alerts to the general public, but I have a special interest in RS role in
)pre-war Germany.
The philosopher king idea is my own, based on my reading of Steiner.
The change in course after the failure of the Threefold Social Order
is documented below, along with some other tidbits. Full biblio data
on request.
"Dr Wolfgang Treher has gone much further in his study, "Hitler,
Steiner, Schreber". He has made a detailed and convincing comparison
of the private worlds of Rudolf Steiner and Adolf Hitler. Treher
considers both Hitler & Steiner to have been schizophrenic, and in
comperable ways. He has suggested dates for the beginning of the
illness suffered by each and compared the private universes occupied
by Hitler & Steiner with a personal account of a schizophrenic world
written by the lawyer & politician Daniel Paul Schreber."
[Webb, 1976, p. 493}
"My occult powers directed me to introduce into contemporary
development in an inconspicuous way that which would lead towards the
truly spiritual."
[Steiner, 1907, ES p. 16]
"It is the deeper task of the anthroposophical movement to enable a
number of human beings to enter their next incarnation with an I each
remembers as his or her own, individual I. These people will then
form the nucleus of the next period of civilization. Then these
individuals who have been well prepared through the anthroposophical
spiritual movement to remember their individual I will be spread over
the earth. For the essential characteristic of the next period of
civilization is that it will not be limited to particular localities,
but will be spread over the whole earth. These individuals will be
scattered over the earth, and thus everywhere on earth there will be
a core group of people who will be crucial for the sixth epoch of
civilization. These people will recognize each other as those who in
their previous incarnation strove together to develop the individual
I."
[Steiner, 1916?, UH p. 23]
"About the 4th July 1919, Steiner stated in a conversation that since
it had not been possible to institute the Movement of the Threefold
Social Order the possibilities of reforming education should now be
made use of.
"A decisive change of outer circumstances thus became evident. No
longer could the Waldorf School be looked upon as part of the
threefold social order which was intended to support and to carry it.
It became clear that the school, as a seed of a free spiritual life,
would have to fight for its own existence and recognition..."
[Stockmeyer, 1969, p. 8]
"[I]t is important to bring out a point which is not often clearly
realized. The spiritual life forces of a Waldorf school are twofold;
or, we could also say, there are two motives for its existence. On
the one hand, it is the starting-point for a renewal of education
based on a spiritual knowledge of the whole man (the teacher's
vocation as such). On the other hand, and at the same time, it is the
working model for a social community, it is an institution of the
free life of spirit. Remember that the Waldorf School was founded in
1919 as part of the larger movement towards a threefold social order
after World War I. When this large-scale effort to renew the social
order, nourished as it was by Rudolf Steiner's impulse, found itself
thwarted, the Waldorf School itself remained, as a sort of "living
relic" after the storm, but also as a seed bearing in itself the
potential for the renewal of social life in our times. The
school--with its various examples of cooperation among different
segments of its community and with inhering self-determination as a
faculty-run institution, since 1919--has been a full-working model
for an organization rooted in the free life of spirit; and as such it
stands as a continuing impulse to re-awaken awareness of the
threefold social order and put it into practice.
***
In the realm of the life of spirit [the parents'] special task is not
the pedagogy of the school. It is, rather, first to acquire a real
understanding of the ideas and reality of the threefold social order.
Then it will be apparent that one thing is very necessary if Waldorf
schools are to develop fully and fruitfully: namely, a constant,
progressive transformation of existing social conditions."
[Leist, 1987, p. 13]
"[A] huge task falls to the Waldorf School through the fact that in
the other spheres they are not paving the way. The work of the School
is going very well, but the Waldorf School has to as certain extent
to take on a task that involves a far greater responsibility. If on
top of having this growing number of adherents someone makes a
blunder-even if it didn't have anything to do with the School-it
would be a frightful disgrace. Things are already in existence that
could make a spiritual movement topple. Therefore you people who work
at the Waldorf School must help to support the whole Movement. That
is how we stand today. Because it has basically lived up to all its
expectations, the Waldorf School can put itself on a broad basis and
thus be a pillar for the whole Anthroposophical Movement. We need a
pillar like that today. The responsibility is growing rapidly. I
should like to ask each one of you to give it your best support. We
have not the slightest cause of rejoicing over the increased number
of adherents. We must realise that any increase in interest only
increases our responsibility."
[Steiner, 1922, CT-2 pp. 58-59]
"As the needs for renewal in society grow in complexity, the Waldorf
educational movement and other spheres of anthroposophical endeavor
are increasingly called upon to respond."
[Zajonc, 1994, p. 1]
"It is known that Ehrefried Pfeiffer asked Steiner once whether he
could give more details to make progress in the field of the new
Technology. Suddenly Steiner let Pfeiffer make some experiments and
the result was negative. Steiner said that the answer from the
spiritual world was that it is not yet the time for this, unless: 1.
social threefold order is realised at least at one point on earth and
secondly that waldorf education should replace the materialistic
education because the spiritual leaders - who should come at the end
of the century - could otherwise not find a suitable body to express
themselves... And also that only with biodynamic nutrition one can
influence etherical forces in a positive way. These two main
conditions will probably not take place before the 21. century,
Steiner said further to Pfeiffer, and until then one should not make
such experiments because only destruction would be the result."
[Clerc, Stephan, "The coming Mechanical Occultismus: Are we ready to
take-off?" posting on anthropos-science, 5/23/96]
It's the 21st century now...
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2375.9 ---------------
From: "George Aspbury" (aspbury1 worldnet.att.net)
Subject: RE: joining cults/was Mr. Nice to Mr. Kopp
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 05:53:40 -0500
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[ray]
) No, you did not misread. I am not suprised that
) you fail to grasp my point.
) My "black" humor is insensitive if you see it as
) an end in itself. I use it
) to elucidate the possible conclusions, albeit
) extreme, to your statement:
) "We should not judge someone who finds meaning in
) giving up a degree of free
) thought to an ideology"....unless, of course, it
) effects millions of innocent
) people.
) What sort of "meaning", at the expense of free
) thought, can you derive
) from an ideology George?
Those who resort to one extreme often miss the big picture.
Black humor is used to address those things that we find
repugnant to our senses. If you are Jewish, drug abuser,
homosexual, gypsy, etc... then I say you can a point to the
analogy of a Nazi barbecue as being a type of humor
otherwise it is childish and insensitive. You assume much
to quickly by saying that you are not surprised that I would
not understand what you said. I know full well what you
meant and it disgusted me. You are jumping to conclusions
that I did understand what you meant. Lets drop this silly
shit and address the issues without personal judgments about
each other. Personal reactions are fine by me but
assumptive judgments go nowhere.
) Socratic axiom: "An
) unexamined life is not worth living" ? Or do you
) sacrifice intellectual
) integrity for the comforting bliss of the
) unexamined...and in the dark, set
) the stage for inhumanity ,denying its consequences?
) Cause and effect.
I subscribe to no static ideology. I see everything as being
much more complex than a choice of two poles. I see
everything as existing in the flux that exist within the
paradox of the infinitely finite state of balance that
exists between the poles of good and evil, right and wrong,
yes and no, black and white, on and off etc.. In short I
try to remain as open as possible to new ideas. This
requires constant action and reaction this may seem hectic
but I balance it by being able to live in the moment, that
is , I can experience the bliss that comes from the
realization of being in the infinite. Which is your
ideology?
What is wrong with someone coming to terms with it all
through an ideology?
You present things in the extreme and I appreciate that. I
find it useful to use the extreme ends to tease our the
truth of the matter. The truth exists somewhere in some
time. The focus needs to be narrowed to understand something
and using these extremes allows for a big net which is used
to capture the most information. It is quite a trick to
filter the results into a sufficiently narrow bit that can
be useful in formulating thought and subsequently in
communicating those thoughts. We all bring our strategies
for communication to the table, whether we know it or not,
the important thing for fruitful communication is the truth.
I may not please anyone but I am bound to tell it how I see
it.
I will play word games all day if you want but I would
rather skip the fun and games to get to the substance of the
discussion. There are many lists out there where mental
sparring is the par but I would prefer to have open honest
exchange of opinion and thought in this forum. I find that
in the arena of thought where the egos are checked at the
door, the best things happen. (my opinion. I know I am free
to leave at any time)
George Aspbury
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2375.10 ---------------
From: BarbaraWB aol.com
Subject: re: numerous quotes/sources
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 07:32:06 EDT
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.((....Steiner said that the answer from the spiritual world was that it is
not yet the time for this,
[Clerc, Stephan, "The coming Mechanical Occultismus: Are we ready to
take-off?" posting on anthropos-science, 5/23/96]
"My occult powers directed me to introduce into contemporary
development in an inconspicuous way that which would lead towards the
truly spiritual."
[Steiner, 1907, ES p. 16]))
Thank you Dan - this is invaluable. I'll tell you - had I been an intake
worker at any point in my career at any psychiatric hospital and someone
"presented" having written or speaking as Steiner did about "his powers" - he
would have been committed - ooops! admitted to said hospital.
When I was in graduate school we would be given vignettes and told nothing
about the author. Then, based on them, we practiced our diagnostic skills.
Would have been interesting to get one of the quotes you just posted!
As I read these posts I think about a PLANS conference - has there ever been
one?
I'm tempted to joke a little about where it could be held, the agenda, and so
on, but will refrain.
((It's the 21st century now...))
Yes, complete with the mentally ill - who will always be with us - and modern
psychiatry which, one hopes, will continue on a course of discovery,
compassion, and treatment! (Unless one is a Scientologist - where cure is
anathema to the movement).
Barbara
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2375 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2376 --------------
001 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
002 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
003 - David Mollet (waldorfedu - hitting a student
004 - "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2ga - boredom/rose
005 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
006 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Rose/autism
007 - Rose Alford (roseal telep - Re: boredom/rose
008 - Rose Alford (roseal telep - Re: Rose/autism
009 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - "Dr Treher"
010 - Chris Brostrup-Jensen (C_ - Thanks and a thought
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2376.1 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:59:36 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
)From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
)Reply-To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
)To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
)Subject: Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
)Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 18:26:32 +0200
)
)Diana Winters wrote:
)
) ) It is likely to get worse, not better.
)
)Quite agree; In few years, the new teacher will likely kill his first
)victim.
This is called denial, Sune. Doubtful he or she will kill anyone. Very
likely he or she will continue to hit children if no one takes a strong
stand that this will not be acceptable.
Why not put him in the chair right away? People learn and change?
)No way!
Sure he or she can change. After they get the hell out of any classroom *my*
child is sitting in, I wish them all the best in their effort to change.
Diana
)Vive la misanthropie! The only true basis for life!
)
)Sune Nordwall
)Stockholm, Sweden
)
)http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
)- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
)EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
)
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2376.2 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 12:51:24 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
)From: BarbaraWB aol.com
)Reply-To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
)To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
)Subject: Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
)Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 14:01:21 EDT
)
)
)In a message dated 6/11/00 10:10:50 AM, winters_diana hotmail.com writes:
)
)(( If someone's *first* solution to stress and difficult
)situations is to lash out, do you really think he or she will not do it
)again? It is likely to get worse, not better.
)
)Diana
) ))
)
)I agree completely. When I was in practice the lion's share of my work was
)w/ domestic violence. Violent outbursts are a (pathetic/tragic) way of
)getting and keeping control. It cannot be tolerated. People who are
)violent, especially to those younger and/or weaker, have the most fragile
)egos around. They do not get better.
)Any parent who would keep their child in this perpetrator's class is guilty
)of child abuse as well.
As is any administrator or committee or board who would allow this teacher
back in the classroom day after day, debating his or her "pedagogy,"
experimenting with whether this individual can "learn and change," with the
children as guinea pigs.
)
)Incidentally, at the school I worked in I realized that when the staff and
)parents weren't walking around like their water supply was full of Prozac,
)they were in a rage. No middle ground. Scary.
)
)B.
This has been discussed on the list before, and I have seen this too. Prim
smiles through clenched teeth. Keep singing or chanting verses and quietly
pinch anyone who is making a disruption. This makes children crazy.
It makes sense to me that people who can function like this day after day,
in denial, can also deny that it is any big deal when the rage actually
erupts. Assaults against children become "mistakes" in a teacher's pedagogy.
Diana
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2376.3 ---------------
From: David Mollet (waldorfedu freewwweb.com)
Subject: hitting a student
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 06:11:38 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
This is never at any time or under any normal circumstance any excuse
for hitting a student. Teaching is not a suitable profession for such a
person.
Regards
David
*********************************
Dr. David Mollet
Free lessons/newsletters for teachers/parents
http://members.aol.com/WERLessons
http://members.aol.com/WaldorfNew
waldorfedu freewwweb.com
In case you are interested, I would just like to pass this site on to
you. It is the Hunger Site supported by the U.N. All you do is click a
button and somewhere in the world some hungry person gets a meal at no
cost to you. The food is paid for by corporate sponsors who have their
logos on the site. You're only allowed one click per day.
http://www.thehungersite.com/index.html
*********************************
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2376.4 ---------------
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: boredom/rose
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 09:14:58 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In a very informative post on educational approaches to autism, Rose Alford
mentions, once again, her non-autistic daughter's problems at a WS:
The day is boring for her, the repetitive singing of songs
and the endless copying from the board are her major complaints.
Lisa:
Rose, if you have time, check out the archives from January or so of this
year. You will find a number of my own posts on the exact situation you are
talking about -- only referring to my own 4th grader. We were alarmed not
only to find out that she was copying almost everything (and I am being
generous saying almost) from the board, but also that the teacher wanted it
that way because our daughter 'lived too much in her head' and needed to be
'moved down into her trunk and limbs.' The teacher said that Olivia was
engaging in abstract thinking too early, which would lead to later problems
(illness -- reference probably to my own chronic headache conditions from --
could it be? thinking too much?!!!)
Let me know if you can't find the information/posts in the archives. Or we
can resurrect the topic. Boredom -- if it is caused by the child being
forced to do "work' that is mostly copying and too slow, is NOT good
education.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2376.5 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 16:27:24 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (200006121201.FAA08578 lists1.best.com)
Diana Winters wrote:
) ) ) It is likely to get worse, not better.
) )
) )Quite agree; In few years, the new teacher will likely kill his first
) )victim.
)
) This is called denial, Sune.
What is your summarizing judgement:
"It is likely to get worse, not better."
called? Logic and not knee-jerk critizism of anything waldorf?
My answer displayed the implied meaning of your judgement: "likely to get
worse". Being a logically oriented person, I assumed your judgement was not
to be taken as rhetoric. Now you say it was:
) Doubtful he or she will kill anyone. Very
) likely he or she will continue to hit children if no one takes a strong
) stand that this will not be acceptable.
"if":
What you wrote was _after_ you knew - if you read the actual source for
this discussion - that
- the teacher had been reported to the State Bureau of Investigation,
- that he immediately only was allowed to continue teaching in other
classes with the main teacher of the classes in question present during
the few days until
- he would be scrutinized, probably by the college of teachers as to his
understanding of his task, methods of work and of his pedagogical
abilities.
Which by the way was characterized by the moderator with the "not
knee-jerk" comment as displaying "The arrogance of the faculty" when
introducing this thread on the list.
Knowing the practice in waldorf schools to use professionals from different
professions, like painters and musicians, and academics, without any
specific waldorf training, as teachers for specific morning period subjects
(their own) in the upper grades, I have a hunch the teacher discussed with
such intensity in this case is such a not specifically pedagogically
trained or experienced musician (something the moderator probably also is
aware of), after 4 days of harassment by some 13 year kids in the class
found he did not accept their behaviour any more.
) Why not put him in the chair right away? People learn and change?
) )No way!
)
) Sure he or she can change.
If you read the original article at all, the source of this discussion,
you'd have noticed the teachers name was Matthias.
) After they get the hell out of any classroom *my*
) child is sitting in, I wish them all the best in their effort to change.
"They", a new example of your quick, extrapolating, not not rhetorical
knee-jerk "logic" ...
Lisa wondered why I continue to stay on this list. I continuously wonder
myself.
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2376.6 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Rose/autism
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 01:53:13 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (200006120327.UAA14221 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200006120327.UAA14221 lists1.best.com)
Ray, you wrote,
)Yes, this is what the Waldorf people say, they think he is not completely
)incarnated, but maybe Steiner had some tips for trying to complete the
)incarnation. Afterall, did he not do something called "curative
)Education." Ha ha ha.
Do you know anything about Camphill, the Anthroposophical system for
care of the developmentally disabled? With your knowledge of autism,
I'd like to hear your take on it.
(snip)
)In the meanwhile I am working on developing a school for children with
)disabilities called Child Development School of Oregon (www.cdso.org) which
)uses state of the art behavioral analysis techniques to teach children with
)Developmental disabilities and severe learning disabled children as well.
Bless your heart for doing that.
(snip)
)As far as the article in Mothering Magazine, I am quite aware of that
)article and they did a nice job summarizing all the different things you
)can try. But what it boils down to is the only thing that there is which
)has data based research for autism is the applied behavioral analysis
)(ABA). All those other things are just anecdotal hit or miss. I have
)considered trying and have tried many different things with my son, but the
)ABA is what keeps him making the progress he has been making.
I found a description of ABA at:
http://www.albany.edu/psy/autism/legal.html
(snip)
)One thing that is really scary these days that I have to mention is the
)severe incerease in the number of children with DDs such as autism. Autism
)and its other related Perevasive Developmental Disorders has increased so
)rapidly that when I look at children younger than three I worry for them.
)We don't know what is causing this rapid increase in autism, but it makes
)me very worried. Oregon went from about 20 kids with autism in its school
)system in 1984 to almost 3000 in 1999. California has put out a report
)stating that its Developmental Disability Department reports a whoppig 273%
)increase in autism rates in the last decade.
There is a report on studies of autism rates at:
http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/cddh/dd/report.htm
An excerpt:
***
The rate of autistic disorder in Brick Township was 4.0 per 1,000
children. The rate for the spectrum of autism disorders obtained in
this investigation was 6.7 per 1,000 children. These rates are higher
than previously published rates. However, there is much controversy
about the actual rate of autism. Considerable debate has focused on
the actual prevalence of autism and whether the prevalence has
increased during the past 20-30 years (Fombonne, 1996; 1999; Gillberg
& Wing, 1999). Nearly all recent studies (Table 6) suggest that the
prevalence of autism is considerably higher than the rates of 0.4 to
0.5 per 1,000 that were originally described. These early rates were
based on narrowly defined criteria for autism that included two
essential features--a profound lack of affective contact and
elaborate repetitive and ritualistic behaviors (Kanner & Eisenberg,
1956). More recent diagnostic criteria for autism, based on the
DSM-IV (1984) or the International Classification of Diseases Tenth
Revision (ICD-10, 1992), are considerably broader incorporating the
clinical recognition that the hallmark features of autism-impaired
social interactions, inability to communicate, and repetitive or
restrictive behaviors-can occur in a wide range of severity levels
with several different manifestations (Wing, 1993; Filipek, et al.,
1999). Recent reviews of the prevalence of autism (Fombonne, 1999;
Gillberg & Wing, 1999) suggest that a conservative estimate of the
prevalence of autistic disorder from studies published in the 1990's
is about 1 per 1,000 children. For the entire spectrum of autistic
disorders, the rate of 2 per 1,000 that was obtained by Wing and
Gould (1979) is cited most often. However, a few recent studies have
shown rates that are considerably higher than the above estimates.
Specifically, studies conducted in Japan and Sweden showed rates of
autism ranging from 2.1 to 6.0 per 1,000 children (Honda et al, 1996;
Arvidsson et al., 1997; Kadesjo and Gillberg, 1999). Although each of
these studies included relatively small populations, which would have
facilitated more intensive case finding methods, the small sample
sizes also resulted in statistically unstable prevalence rates as
reflected by wide confidence intervals. However, a study recently
completed in the United Kingdom, with a considerably larger
population, reported a provisional rate of 3.1 per 1,000 children for
autistic disorder and 5.8 per 1,000 children for ASD (Baird et al.,
in press). One reason for the higher rates in these studies may be
their more intensive case-finding methods that included screening the
entire population. As discussed below, intense case finding
activities may have contributed to the high rate in Brick Township.
Another important point to consider when interpreting the rate
found in Brick Township is the lack of U.S. data on the prevalence of
autism, although there is no reason to believe that the rate in U.S.
populations should differ appreciably from other population groups.
The data used by Gillberg and Wing (1979) to derive their estimate of
1 per 1,000 for the prevalence of autism is based on studies
conducted outside of the United States. The two U.S. studies that
satisfied the criteria to be included in the review--population-based
screening followed by a clinical evaluation--obtained rates of 0.3
per 1,000 (Burd et al., 1987; Ritvo, et al, 1989) and are considered
outliers by most investigators (Gillberg & Wing, 1999). The low rates
in these U.S. studies probably result from their exclusive reliance
on referred cases from sources that provided services to children
with autism, rather than actively reviewing all potential source
records as in the Brick Township investigation.
Other U.S. data sources seem to support the idea that the
prevalence of autism is higher than previously thought, although how
much higher is still uncertain. A recent report released by the
California Department of Developmental Services (DDS) showed a large
increase from 1987 to 1998 in the number of children with autism for
whom the DDS provided services. We estimated a prevalence rate from
the California DDS data of 1.5 per 1,000 4-9 year old children (95%
CI=1.45-1.54) in 1998 by using the number of children aged 4-9 years
receiving DDS services for autism in 1998 as the numerator and the
U.S. census estimate of the number of children in this age range
living in California in 1998 as the denominator. This rate is
probably an underestimate because this service system is unlikely to
identify all children with autism. CDC has recently completed data
collection for a large prevalence study in metropolitan Atlanta.
Although case review and data analysis are ongoing, provisional rates
of autistic disorder based on the number of cases reviewed (40% of
total), and assuming a similar rate of case confirmation for the
remainder, range from 2 to 3 per 1,000 3- to 10-year-old children.
The combination of the Atlanta and California data suggest that the
rate of autistic disorder in the United States is substantially
higher than the 1 per 1,000 estimate of Gillberg and Wing (1999),
although how much higher and how the rates vary across different
subpopulations is yet to be determined.
***
"Higher than previously thought" doesn't necessarily mean "increasing."
)Again, no one knows why this
)is happening but many people are pointing to things like the MMR
)vaccination that children started to receive in the late 80's. Many people
)claim there child was developing normally until the vaccination for MMR was
)received between 15 and 18 months of age. Then they went downhill into the
)abyss of autism. I think that is very interesting.
The precipitate incidents can't be ignored, but it's frustrating
because evidence is not showing up when it's looked for in large
groups.
)The Centers for Disease
)Control and the pharm. companies are poo pooing the theory and telling the
)parents they are nuts for even thinking that vaccinations can cause autism,
)but yet what is the expalnation for the severe increases in the rates of
)autistic related disorders?
There may be an increase in diagnosis without an increase in actual
cases. This is discussed in the report above. About the vaccine
hypothesis, CDC says:
http://www.cdc.gov/nip/vacsafe/concerns/autism/vaccines&autism.htm
***
Scientific Evidence Regarding Vaccines and Autism
CDC believes that the current scientific evidence does not support
the hypothesis that the MMR vaccine, or any combination of vaccines,
causes the development of autism. The research that supports this
statement includes:
* The British Committee on Safety of Medicines convened a
"Working Party on MMR Vaccine" to conduct an extensive review of
several hundred cases reported to a group of solicitors as having
developed autism or Crohn's (inflammatory bowel) disease as the
result of immunization with the MMR vaccine. The Working Party
concluded that the information available, given the limitations, ". .
. did not support the suggested causal association or give cause for
concern about the safety of MMR or MR vaccines."
* A recently published study in The Lancet by Dr. Brent Taylor
and colleagues provides the best population-based evidence regarding
MMR vaccination and autism. The authors identified all 498 known
cases of autism spectrum disorders (ASD) in children living in
certain districts of London who were born in 1979 or later and
correlated the cases to an independent vaccination registry. The
results of this study were:
1. Despite an increase in the number of diagnosed ASD cases since
1979, no jump occurred after the introduction of the MMR vaccine in
1988. Such a jump would have been expected if MMR was causing a
substantial increase in autism cases.
2. Children who were vaccinated before 18 months of age were
diagnosed with autism at ages similar to children who were vaccinated
after 18 months of age, indicating that the vaccination did not
result in earlier expression of ASD characteristics. If MMR were
causing many autism cases, it would have been expected that children
vaccinated at a younger age would develop autism at a younger age
than children vaccinated at older ages.
3. At age two, the MMR vaccination coverage among ASD cases was
nearly identical to vaccination coverage of children in the same
birth cohorts in the same London districts, providing evidence of a
lack of overall association between ASD and the vaccination.
4. In general, the first diagnosis of autism or initial signs of
behavioral regression were not more likely to occur within time
periods following MMR vaccination than during other time periods.
A study conducted in Sweden by Gillberg and Heijbel, involved 55
known cases of autism, and also showed no evidence of association
between the MMR vaccine and autism. The study compared autism
prevalence rates in populations of children from two communities in
Sweden. The results indicated no difference in autism prevalence
between children born after the introduction of the MMR vaccine in
Sweden and those born before the vaccine was used.
In summary, at this time, the weight-of-evidence does not support an
association between the MMR vaccine and autism.
***
Doesn't rule out a contamination problem, I suppose, but there sure
isn't any smoking gun in sight.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2376.7 ---------------
From: Rose Alford (roseal teleport.com)
Subject: Re: boredom/rose
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:02:34 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (200006121325.GAA00971 lists1.best.com)
Thanks Lisa, I will look in the archives and if I have trouble I will let
you know.
The living in the head thing that you are talking about is right out of the
Kingdom of Childhood lecture book. I recall reading that kind of stuff.
Steiner really believed that the head is just along for the ride, and
should not be the most important thing in the body from what I recall. If
the kids over-intellectualize at too young an age, they will be sick in
middle age because of the miseducation before puberty. I don't buy into
that but of cousre a Waldorf teacher has to be a Waldorf teacher.
--Rose
At 09:14 AM 6/12/00 -0400, you wrote:
)In a very informative post on educational approaches to autism, Rose Alford
)mentions, once again, her non-autistic daughter's problems at a WS:
)
) The day is boring for her, the repetitive singing of songs
)and the endless copying from the board are her major complaints.
)
)Lisa:
)
)Rose, if you have time, check out the archives from January or so of this
)year. You will find a number of my own posts on the exact situation you are
)talking about -- only referring to my own 4th grader. We were alarmed not
)only to find out that she was copying almost everything (and I am being
)generous saying almost) from the board, but also that the teacher wanted it
)that way because our daughter 'lived too much in her head' and needed to be
)'moved down into her trunk and limbs.' The teacher said that Olivia was
)engaging in abstract thinking too early, which would lead to later problems
)(illness -- reference probably to my own chronic headache conditions from --
)could it be? thinking too much?!!!)
)
)Let me know if you can't find the information/posts in the archives. Or we
)can resurrect the topic. Boredom -- if it is caused by the child being
)forced to do "work' that is mostly copying and too slow, is NOT good
)education.
)
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2376.8 ---------------
From: Rose Alford (roseal teleport.com)
Subject: Re: Rose/autism
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:23:47 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (200006120327.UAA14221 lists1.best.com)
(200006120327.UAA14221 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200006121605.JAA26579 lists1.best.com)
)Do you know anything about Camphill, the Anthroposophical system for
)care of the developmentally disabled? With your knowledge of autism,
)I'd like to hear your take on it.
)
)From what I saw of the video on it, it looked like a good place for people
with DDs. I would have to check out the school first hand though before I
would place my son there. I don't think I would put him in their special
school because I doubt if they use ABA which would be contra-athrop I
would imagine. For people whose disabilites don't include severe behavior
issues, like Down Syndrome or other forms of Mental Retardation, the school
is probably acceptable. The adult communtities might be a place for my son
eventually, depending on how independent he becomes eventually.
--Rose
)(snip)
)
))In the meanwhile I am working on developing a school for children with
))disabilities called Child Development School of Oregon (www.cdso.org) which
))uses state of the art behavioral analysis techniques to teach children with
))Developmental disabilities and severe learning disabled children as well.
)
)Bless your heart for doing that.
)
)(snip)
))As far as the article in Mothering Magazine, I am quite aware of that
))article and they did a nice job summarizing all the different things you
))can try. But what it boils down to is the only thing that there is which
))has data based research for autism is the applied behavioral analysis
))(ABA). All those other things are just anecdotal hit or miss. I have
))considered trying and have tried many different things with my son, but the
))ABA is what keeps him making the progress he has been making.
)
)I found a description of ABA at:
)http://www.albany.edu/psy/autism/legal.html
)
)(snip)
))One thing that is really scary these days that I have to mention is the
))severe incerease in the number of children with DDs such as autism. Autism
))and its other related Perevasive Developmental Disorders has increased so
))rapidly that when I look at children younger than three I worry for them.
))We don't know what is causing this rapid increase in autism, but it makes
))me very worried. Oregon went from about 20 kids with autism in its school
))system in 1984 to almost 3000 in 1999. California has put out a report
))stating that its Developmental Disability Department reports a whoppig 273%
))increase in autism rates in the last decade.
)
)There is a report on studies of autism rates at:
)http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/cddh/dd/report.htm
)
)An excerpt:
)***
) The rate of autistic disorder in Brick Township was 4.0 per 1,000
)children. The rate for the spectrum of autism disorders obtained in
)this investigation was 6.7 per 1,000 children. These rates are higher
)than previously published rates. However, there is much controversy
)about the actual rate of autism. Considerable debate has focused on
)the actual prevalence of autism and whether the prevalence has
)increased during the past 20-30 years (Fombonne, 1996; 1999; Gillberg
)& Wing, 1999). Nearly all recent studies (Table 6) suggest that the
)prevalence of autism is considerably higher than the rates of 0.4 to
)0.5 per 1,000 that were originally described. These early rates were
)based on narrowly defined criteria for autism that included two
)essential features--a profound lack of affective contact and
)elaborate repetitive and ritualistic behaviors (Kanner & Eisenberg,
)1956). More recent diagnostic criteria for autism, based on the
)DSM-IV (1984) or the International Classification of Diseases Tenth
)Revision (ICD-10, 1992), are considerably broader incorporating the
)clinical recognition that the hallmark features of autism-impaired
)social interactions, inability to communicate, and repetitive or
)restrictive behaviors-can occur in a wide range of severity levels
)with several different manifestations (Wing, 1993; Filipek, et al.,
)1999). Recent reviews of the prevalence of autism (Fombonne, 1999;
)Gillberg & Wing, 1999) suggest that a conservative estimate of the
)prevalence of autistic disorder from studies published in the 1990's
)is about 1 per 1,000 children. For the entire spectrum of autistic
)disorders, the rate of 2 per 1,000 that was obtained by Wing and
)Gould (1979) is cited most often. However, a few recent studies have
)shown rates that are considerably higher than the above estimates.
)Specifically, studies conducted in Japan and Sweden showed rates of
)autism ranging from 2.1 to 6.0 per 1,000 children (Honda et al, 1996;
)Arvidsson et al., 1997; Kadesjo and Gillberg, 1999). Although each of
)these studies included relatively small populations, which would have
)facilitated more intensive case finding methods, the small sample
)sizes also resulted in statistically unstable prevalence rates as
)reflected by wide confidence intervals. However, a study recently
)completed in the United Kingdom, with a considerably larger
)population, reported a provisional rate of 3.1 per 1,000 children for
)autistic disorder and 5.8 per 1,000 children for ASD (Baird et al.,
)in press). One reason for the higher rates in these studies may be
)their more intensive case-finding methods that included screening the
)entire population. As discussed below, intense case finding
)activities may have contributed to the high rate in Brick Township.
)
) Another important point to consider when interpreting the rate
)found in Brick Township is the lack of U.S. data on the prevalence of
)autism, although there is no reason to believe that the rate in U.S.
)populations should differ appreciably from other population groups.
)The data used by Gillberg and Wing (1979) to derive their estimate of
)1 per 1,000 for the prevalence of autism is based on studies
)conducted outside of the United States. The two U.S. studies that
)satisfied the criteria to be included in the review--population-based
)screening followed by a clinical evaluation--obtained rates of 0.3
)per 1,000 (Burd et al., 1987; Ritvo, et al, 1989) and are considered
)outliers by most investigators (Gillberg & Wing, 1999). The low rates
)in these U.S. studies probably result from their exclusive reliance
)on referred cases from sources that provided services to children
)with autism, rather than actively reviewing all potential source
)records as in the Brick Township investigation.
)
) Other U.S. data sources seem to support the idea that the
)prevalence of autism is higher than previously thought, although how
)much higher is still uncertain. A recent report released by the
)California Department of Developmental Services (DDS) showed a large
)increase from 1987 to 1998 in the number of children with autism for
)whom the DDS provided services. We estimated a prevalence rate from
)the California DDS data of 1.5 per 1,000 4-9 year old children (95%
)CI=1.45-1.54) in 1998 by using the number of children aged 4-9 years
)receiving DDS services for autism in 1998 as the numerator and the
)U.S. census estimate of the number of children in this age range
)living in California in 1998 as the denominator. This rate is
)probably an underestimate because this service system is unlikely to
)identify all children with autism. CDC has recently completed data
)collection for a large prevalence study in metropolitan Atlanta.
)Although case review and data analysis are ongoing, provisional rates
)of autistic disorder based on the number of cases reviewed (40% of
)total), and assuming a similar rate of case confirmation for the
)remainder, range from 2 to 3 per 1,000 3- to 10-year-old children.
)The combination of the Atlanta and California data suggest that the
)rate of autistic disorder in the United States is substantially
)higher than the 1 per 1,000 estimate of Gillberg and Wing (1999),
)although how much higher and how the rates vary across different
)subpopulations is yet to be determined.
)***
)
)"Higher than previously thought" doesn't necessarily mean "increasing."
Children with autistic spectrum disorders (ASD) are very common up here in
Oregon. Everytime I turn around I hear of another one that just has been
diagnosed. It is true that because it is considered a "spectrum" disorder
that has a full range from mild to severe some more diagnosis are happening
today than in the past, but this is not accounting for the severe increase
in the rates of diagnosis. Ask any professional who diagnoses children
with ASD and they will tell you they are seeing a lot more than they were
10 years ago. In Oregon the rate seems to be as high as 1 in 200 for
example, just think in the old days the rate was thought to be 2 in 10,000.
We are certainly seeing a lot more children with behavioral disorders in
general, including children with ADD/ADHD and Bipolar disorders, something
must be going on.
--Rose
)
))Again, no one knows why this
))is happening but many people are pointing to things like the MMR
))vaccination that children started to receive in the late 80's. Many people
))claim there child was developing normally until the vaccination for MMR was
))received between 15 and 18 months of age. Then they went downhill into the
))abyss of autism. I think that is very interesting.
)
)The precipitate incidents can't be ignored, but it's frustrating
)because evidence is not showing up when it's looked for in large
)groups.
)
))The Centers for Disease
))Control and the pharm. companies are poo pooing the theory and telling the
))parents they are nuts for even thinking that vaccinations can cause autism,
))but yet what is the expalnation for the severe increases in the rates of
))autistic related disorders?
)
)There may be an increase in diagnosis without an increase in actual
)cases. This is discussed in the report above. About the vaccine
)hypothesis, CDC says:
)
)http://www.cdc.gov/nip/vacsafe/concerns/autism/vaccines&autism.htm
)
)***
)
)Scientific Evidence Regarding Vaccines and Autism
The jury is still out on this one. They have had the congressional
hearings and Rep. Dan Burton whose grandson was diagnosed with autism after
receiving MMR is on the warpath on this one. CDC will have to investigate
the role of MMR is some cases of autism. The study done by Wakefield which
linked the measles virus with a certain intestional condition found in
autistic persons cannot be ignored. Time will tell the true story
eventually. I am on the fence on this one as I feel my son was born with
autism and did not acquire it from exposure to vaccinations. Nevertheless,
he will never get another vaccination again.
--Rose
)
)CDC believes that the current scientific evidence does not support
)the hypothesis that the MMR vaccine, or any combination of vaccines,
)causes the development of autism. The research that supports this
)statement includes:
)
)* The British Committee on Safety of Medicines convened a
)"Working Party on MMR Vaccine" to conduct an extensive review of
)several hundred cases reported to a group of solicitors as having
)developed autism or Crohn's (inflammatory bowel) disease as the
)result of immunization with the MMR vaccine. The Working Party
)concluded that the information available, given the limitations, ". .
). did not support the suggested causal association or give cause for
)concern about the safety of MMR or MR vaccines."
)
)* A recently published study in The Lancet by Dr. Brent Taylor
)and colleagues provides the best population-based evidence regarding
)MMR vaccination and autism. The authors identified all 498 known
)cases of autism spectrum disorders (ASD) in children living in
)certain districts of London who were born in 1979 or later and
)correlated the cases to an independent vaccination registry. The
)results of this study were:
)
)1. Despite an increase in the number of diagnosed ASD cases since
)1979, no jump occurred after the introduction of the MMR vaccine in
)1988. Such a jump would have been expected if MMR was causing a
)substantial increase in autism cases.
)
)2. Children who were vaccinated before 18 months of age were
)diagnosed with autism at ages similar to children who were vaccinated
)after 18 months of age, indicating that the vaccination did not
)result in earlier expression of ASD characteristics. If MMR were
)causing many autism cases, it would have been expected that children
)vaccinated at a younger age would develop autism at a younger age
)than children vaccinated at older ages.
)
)3. At age two, the MMR vaccination coverage among ASD cases was
)nearly identical to vaccination coverage of children in the same
)birth cohorts in the same London districts, providing evidence of a
)lack of overall association between ASD and the vaccination.
)
)4. In general, the first diagnosis of autism or initial signs of
)behavioral regression were not more likely to occur within time
)periods following MMR vaccination than during other time periods.
)
)A study conducted in Sweden by Gillberg and Heijbel, involved 55
)known cases of autism, and also showed no evidence of association
)between the MMR vaccine and autism. The study compared autism
)prevalence rates in populations of children from two communities in
)Sweden. The results indicated no difference in autism prevalence
)between children born after the introduction of the MMR vaccine in
)Sweden and those born before the vaccine was used.
)
) In summary, at this time, the weight-of-evidence does not support an
)association between the MMR vaccine and autism.
)
)***
)
)Doesn't rule out a contamination problem, I suppose, but there sure
)isn't any smoking gun in sight.
)
)-Dan Dugan
)
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2376.9 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: "Dr Treher"
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 21:02:47 +0200
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References: (200006111332.GAA06926 lists1.best.com) (200006120646.XAA00964 lists1.best.com)
Dan Dugan wrote, arguing for his imagination of Steiner as dreaming of
"being the 'philosopher king' enthroned in Dornach" by referring to a "Dr
Wolfgang Treher":
) The philosopher king idea is my own, based on my reading of Steiner.
) The change in course after the failure of the Threefold Social Order
) is documented below, along with some other tidbits. Full biblio data
) on request.
)
) "Dr Wolfgang Treher has gone much further in his study, "Hitler,
) Steiner, Schreber". He has made a detailed and convincing comparison
) of the private worlds of Rudolf Steiner and Adolf Hitler. Treher
) considers both Hitler & Steiner to have been schizophrenic, and in
) comperable ways. He has suggested dates for the beginning of the
) illness suffered by each and compared the private universes occupied
) by Hitler & Steiner with a personal account of a schizophrenic world
) written by the lawyer & politician Daniel Paul Schreber."
)
) [Webb, 1976, p. 493}
Sounds impressive.
Immediately reminded me of your description Wed, 10 May 2000 20:54:53 -0700
of a Dr Gorter.
Searching the net for info on him, it turned out he - after having
practiced as an anthroposophical MD for 20 years- in 1998 worked as
associate clinical professor at the University of California San Francisco
Medical Center (Department of Family and Community Medicine), and also as
medical director of the European Institute for Oncological and
Immunological Research" and recently having published "PhaseI/II trial to
document immunomodulatory, cytotoxic and potentially anti-HIV properties of
Iscador" in Journal of the American Medical Association (1995;12:3-5).
Your description of this was "I don't want him practicing medicine. Thanks
to his Anthroposophical re-training, he's given up science." Great "truth
in advertising" by the moderator of this list and secretary of PLANS ...
It is difficult to find much info on this "Dr Wolfgang Treher" on the net.
You mentioned him shortly in Dec 1995 on this list.
I only found three who mention and comment on his as more than as an author
of for example "Transzendenz und Katastrophe: Ernst J¸nger im Spiegel der
Hegelschen Philosophie. Emmendingen-Maleck: Oknos, 1993"
One is http://www.hrz.uni-giessen.de/fb03//vinci/labore/lounge/rollen.htm
It writes, probably commenting on Rowohlt Literaturmagazin 37: Pop Technik
Poesie - Die n‰chste Generation (2/3 down the page):
"It is most of all thanks to Ulrich Holbein, that the book on spite of all
is worthy of reading. Holbein is, in general, a younger version of the
solitary Arno Schmidt. He is self-taught and lives somewhere in Hessen,
where he spends most of his time organizing his library according to the
colour or form of the books. In the book published by Rowohlt he publishes
an extremely amusing correspondence with the neurologist and psychiatrist
Wolfgang Treher, who all the time writes books, that appear in small
editions, against Hegel, Hitler, Ernst J¸nger and above all Rudolf
Steiner."
The second is http://www.groene.nl/1996/09/rz_stein.html
(40% down the page):
Studies like the one by ... Wolfgang Treher ... were written from the
perspective of class struggle.
Then in an approximate translation:
"Treher in his 1966 published study compared Steiner and Hitler. Treher:
'Rudolf Steiner and Adolf Hitler, both coming from Austrian forrest
regions, were not only of the same nationality, but also very much
resembled each other as individuals. They both after a pre-stage
experienced a comet-like career. They even seemed to dress alike. During
the incubation phase of both, enthusiastic, partly older women played a
decisive role as protective, inspiring forces. Both were vegetarians and
beleden (insulted?) this vegetarianism as a philosophy when they started to
make it their mission to preach it. Neither Hitler nor Steiner have a
deterrently large production, that in itself makes you suspect them of
being psychotic. They viewed themselves as universal geniuses of humanity
of an unimaginable size."
The third page is http://carpe.com/ligatur/lio_rlm_37.html also comments on
Rowohlt Literaturmagazin 37: Pop Technik Poesie - Die n‰chste Generation:
"The book ends with an authentic and rather amusing correspondence between
Ulrich Holbein and a certain Wolfgang Treher, psychiatrist and neurologist
on anthroposophy, that generally escalates to a verbal exchange of blows
and procures the reader with the interesting insight, that even the
cultivated academic for the sake of reaching the intended insult willingly
fishes out of the manyfacetted treasury of German words referring to the
fecal area."
Good source, Dan.
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2376.10 ---------------
From: Chris Brostrup-Jensen (C_Brostrup-Jensen brown.edu)
Subject: Thanks and a thought
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 16:36:51 -0400
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Hi all,
I subscribed to this list about three weeks ago. My older son just
graduated from kindergarten (at a private preschool) and several
visits to our local public school had aroused my and my wife's
anxieties about the "fit" between the public school and our son.
In our search for alternatives, we stumbled across a small
Waldorf school, newly relocated to our area. At first glance it
seemed like a great place, just what we wanted, but the price
was high and the time to gather information and make a decision
was short. Enter the 'Net . . . :-)
I found this list and one devoted to Waldorf proponents (I think
you all call it the "St. John's" list), so I subscribed to both. This
one has been a tad more . . . exciting than the other. ;-) Despite
the outbursts of mudslinging, this list has been very helpful to me
in putting the brakes on my initial enthusiasm for Waldorf and raising
questions I did not know needed to be raised about a school, like
"How many selves do you think my son has?" and "Do your
teachers subscribe to any fantastical and racist beliefs about the
evolution of human beings?" There are still aspects of Waldorf
I like and I'm not convinced that all Waldorf schools are as bad as
the "worst-case" examples that folks have discussed here. But I
am not interested in sending my son to a religious school, so we
will be exploring further options. I would like to thank you all
collectively for my indirect but effective education!
That said, I would like to offer an observation in the spirit of
constructive criticism. I've only been on the list for three weeks
and I have not participated personally at all, yet I already feel
fatigued and somewhat alienated by the level of personal conflict
here. People have strong feelings about the issues raised on the list;
that is clear. It is not so clear (to me at least) that anyone's best
interests are served by allowing those strong feelings to become
personal animosities.
One thought I have had, watching the fur fly, is that in some ways
this list is really two lists. One list (perhaps the original intent?) is
a place for people who have concerns about Waldorf or who feel
like they (or their children) have been harmed by Waldorf to come
together, share their anger and experiences, and strategize with
like-minded souls about what they can do about the situation. Not
exactly the "Bash-Waldorf" list Sune suggested at one point, but
something reasonably close, a fraternity of Waldorf skeptics.
The other list, the one I have benefited from, is a forum for
discussion about the nature of Waldorf education, anthroposophy
and the relationship between the two. It is a place for a diversity
of opinions, pro and con, to be discussed and disputed in some
reasonably civil manner. My impression is that this was not
particularly Dan's original intent (although I obviously defer to
him on that point), but may have evolved gradually as some
"SWA DoFs" (if I may show off my newly-expanded acronymic
vocabulary just a bit :-) joined the list over time.
Folks like Felix want and *need* something like List 1. If I felt
that my kids had been harmed, as he and Michael and others here
clearly do, I'd be furious too, and in no mood to play nice. I'd want
a place where I could go and feel supported, not to mention plot
my eventual revenge. Likewise, I recognize that I'm not the only
one here seeking to learn more and appreciating the opportunity
to see ideas and opinions debated openly, thoughtfully and with
some mutual respect. So I thought I'd just toss out the idea that
the interests of both peace and effective communication might
best be served by creating two separate lists with different
missions.
Take care,
Chris
Chris Brostrup-Jensen
Programmer/Analyst
Center for Health Care Research
Box G-B223A
Brown University
Providence, RI 02912
phone: 401-863-3682
fax: 401-863-3489
email: c_brostrup-jensen brown.edu
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2376 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2377 --------------
001 - Detlef Hardorp (hardorp g - Re: Teacher beats students
002 - paul c (ptc712 yahoo.com) - Re: Thanks and a thought
003 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Thanks and a thought
004 - Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodW - Re: hitting a student
005 - "George Aspbury" (aspbury - Is Anthroposophy/ Waldorf a Cult?
006 - Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodW - Re: Waldorf methodology/Public education
007 - Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodW - Re: Waldorf methodology/Public education
008 - Rechomba cs.com - Re: joining cults/was Mr. Nice to Mr. Kopp
009 - Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodW - Re: Waldorf methodology/Public education
010 - "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2ga - Waldorf must be Waldorf/was boredom
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2377.1 ---------------
From: Detlef Hardorp (hardorp gmx.net)
Subject: Re: Teacher beats students
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 23:06:43 +0100
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Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com) posted on Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 01:09:30 -0700
)The German newspaper "Berliner Morgenpost" talks about the following incident at a Berlin Waldorf school in its September 18th 1999 edition.
)Of course, this could have happened at any school, but it's somewhatinteresting to read how the school reportedly handled the situation.
Since the school is in Hardorp's district, I'm sure he knows more
about it.
[Hardorp:]
Yes, he does. Your "European correspondent" failed to post the (shorter) article that appeared a bit later in the same newspaper, reporting that the teacher (who was merely substituting for the music teacher on maternity leave and had taught at the school for a mere few weeks - with no Waldorf experience nor Waldorf training - when this incident occurred) was fired a few weeks later. Something the state run schools can't do so easily in Germany, since most teachers there are civil servants ...
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2377.2 ---------------
From: paul c (ptc712 yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Thanks and a thought
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 14:24:30 -0700 (PDT)
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Chris,
A very thoughtful post.
This list presents a useful counterpart to the more
pro-Waldorf list server, though neither can completely
guide a family who is making decisions about joining,
or continuing in, a Waldorf school.
We send all three of our children to Waldorf schools.
Our youngest just finished kindergarten. I feel a
sense of loss that none of our kids will be
participating in the various festivals as they are
celebrated by three to six-year olds. Yes, the grade
schools still honor the festivals, but there's
something special about the way the youngest kids in
the community participate in the lantern walks, Advent
Gardens, Maypole dancing, etc.
I hear the poignant stories of disappointment that
families share here, or in the articles that Dan has
linked. Disappointment, sometimes anger, at the often
esoteric reasoning that Waldorf educators use to
justify their actions. I empathize, because I've lived
through that bewilderment at times--sometimes with the
two Waldorf schools we've been involved with, but most
vividly with our local public school system, where our
oldest daughter spent her first four years of grade
school.
We live in a suburb whose public school system has
been held up as an exemplar of quality education. The
property values of the village are in part an
attestment to this. But we suffered through more
bizarre teaching and administrative practices in four
years of public schools than we have in seven-plus
years of Waldorf kindergarten and grade schools.
I'll be one of the first people to state that reading
Rudolf Steiner in translation is one of the more
baffling undertakings one can accomplish. But even
more baffling is reading the local school district's
policy on diversity orits multi-prong approach to
promote tolerance and punish bullying in schools;
trying to understand the district's several attempts
to promote some sort of holiday festival in December
without mentioning any religion at all--Christian,
Jewish or any other; understanding the principal's
explanations as to why there wasn't a math curriculum
for two years; understanding why it was necessary for
third and fourth graders to shuffle between five or
six teachers in a given day for basic classes (not
special ones) (it was necessary to help prepare them
for what it would be like in juinior high);
understanding why a school could promote "Turn Off The
T.V. Week" for a month, than, during that week, show
the kids videos at lunch time because it was raining
outside.
Enough bashing. Schools--all schools--have a tough job
today. The work of teachers and administrators in many
ways was easier 20 and 30 and 40 years ago, because
schools were not expected to take on as much of a
parenting role as they are now. Plus, parents--waldorf
parents, public school parents, parochial school
parents--are much less likely to take the side of the
school these days when it comes to their child.
In our own ways, we want the best for our kids. It's
really hard to find the best in one location. And it's
tough when you find a style of education that
generally appeals to you but also forces you to come
to grips with esoteric, absurd, contradictory, etc.,
policies. And no school--Waldorf, Montissori, public,
parochial--is immune from these frustrating policies.
Paul
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!
http://photos.yahoo.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2377.3 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Thanks and a thought
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 00:34:24 +0200
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Hej Chris!
You write:
) raising
) questions I did not know needed to be raised about a school, like
) "How many selves do you think my son has?" and "Do your
) teachers subscribe to any fantastical and racist beliefs about the
) evolution of human beings?"
Having worked as a waldorf teacher, though more having dived into the basis
of anthroposophy and its relation to natural science through the years, I
must say this list is a really a strange experience.
During the times I worked at waldorf schools, I never once met a parent or
teacher considering or discussing the questions you mention. They probably
stand out as just as esoteric and strange to the great majority of all
waldorf teachers as they do to you and play the corresponding degree of
role in their work.
For a number of articles, and original lectures by Steiner himself on how
he thought of anthroposophy and waldorf education, and their relation to
one another, see http://www.bobnancy.com/bobnancy.html
The article at http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/99sep/9909waldorf.htm
probably gives a good picture of what life at a waldorf school can be like.
As Dan Dugan and PLANS are mentioned in the article in its third part,
maybe it would be interesting to take part in it on this list too
(http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/99sep/9909waldorf3.htm):
*******************************************************
In early 1998 Dan Dugan, a disenchanted Waldorf parent in San Francisco,
sued the Sacramento school district and another nearby for introducing the
Waldorf philosophy in two public schools in the mid-1990s. Dugan argued
that the movement has a secret agenda that violates the Constitution's
First and Fourteenth Amendments: the indoctrination of children into
Waldorf's "religious doctrines of anthroposophy." Anthroposophy is the name
Rudolf Steiner gave to his theories about the evolution of human
consciousness, drawn from a multiplicity of disciplines -- anthropology,
philosophy, psychology, science, and various religions, particularly
Christianity.
As Steiner wove these disciplines together with his own research, he
created his own brand of spirituality, some of which complements the New
Age movement. A number of Steiner's beliefs are now somewhat accepted --
for example, the notion that virtually all fields of study, from the
humanities to the sciences, share a foundation of explanation. Yet many of
his theories remain suspect -- in large part, no doubt, because
of the dreamy way in which Steiner expressed them.
In a typical essay, "The Roots of Education," he argued, "If you observe
man's development with the means of inner vision of which I have already
spoken -- with the eyes and ears of the soul -- then you will see that man
does not consist only of a physical body . . . but that he also has
supersensible members of his being."
These notions make Dugan, who is a sound engineer, smile and shake his
head. "I'm opposed to magical thinking; I'm a secular humanist," he told me
as we chatted recently in an office stuffed with electronic equipment on
one side and dozens of anthroposophy books on the other, all of which he
claims to have read. In Dugan's view, Steiner's theories are simply "cult
pseudo-science." After Waldorf began spreading into public school
classrooms, Dugan formed a group called PLANS (People for Legal and
Non-Sectarian Schools) to declare what he calmly calls "epistemological
warfare." His goal, he says, is to sort out two questions: "What is
reliable knowledge? How is it obtained?"
Waldorf teachers counter that they don't formally teach anthroposophy. This
is true; in fact, their own rules prohibit them from doing so. They do
study it, however -- most intensively at the Steiner College, where
virtually every class text was written by Steiner or another
anthroposophist. (The Steiner College does expect student teachers to come
to it with standard bachelor's degrees.)
Waldorf teachers say they hide anthroposophy not because they see anything
evil or dangerous in it but because they don't want to push their
philosophy onto the students. The purpose of the teachers' anthroposophical
studies is to enliven their own sensibility and deepen their understanding
of evolution. Only then, according to Waldorf theory, can they inspire
students with the wonder and curiosity that make for profound learning.
Steiner himself encouraged this distinction.
"If I had my way," he wrote, I would give anthroposophy a new name every
day to prevent people from hanging on to its literal meaning.... We must
never be tempted to implement sectarian ideas.. . . We must not chain
children's minds to finished concepts, but give them concepts capable of
further growth and expansion.
Steinerian pronouncements of this sort have excited legions of Waldorf
teachers. Ruth Mikkelsen, of the Mathews School, noticed this when she
first observed Waldorf classes. "Why do they think these kids are
so special?" she remembers wondering. "Thousands of times I've sat with
teachers and heard them say, 'I want to kill Johnny,' or 'I can't wait till
I get home and can have a glass of wine.' At Waldorf they say, 'How can we
help little Ronnie, who's, you know, killing puppies now?'" That attitude
may be precisely the point.
Jerome Kagan, a developmental psychologist at Harvard, says, "In most of
the curriculum changes schools make, if there's any benevolent effect on
students, it's because the teacher is now motivated and passionate. And
kids benefit from that, not from the curriculum."
But anthroposophy still "leaks into the curriculum," as Dan Dugan puts it.
"They try to hide it, but they can't," Rebecca Bolnick, a recent graduate
of the Sacramento Waldorf School, told me. Take, for example, Steiner's
belief that each child's temperament matches one of the four medieval
types: choleric (bold), phlegmatic (deliberate), melancholic (brooding), or
sanguine (lighthearted). Steiner also believed that physical and spiritual
development fall into distinct seven-year periods, the first beginning with
the arrival of a child's permanent teeth.
Suspect as these ideas may seem, the outside experts I spoke to consider
them relatively innocent. ("When you think of what the learning-disability
people cook up, this is very mild," a prominent expert on early education
told me.) Harmless or not, zealotry in the practice of Steiner's theories
usually has a much simpler cause: bad teachers. Although this problem
afflicts every school, Waldorf wrestles with an extra challenge by being
one of the last refuges for the countercultural values of the 1960s. "A lot
of people think Waldorf schools are the place for the kids of ex-hippies,"
says Eugene Schwartz, the director of teacher training at Sunbridge
College, in Spring Valley, New York. That image often attracts teachers who
are "dropping out from the world of competition or power," Schwartz says.
They can find great comfort in Steiner's spirituality, and become more
devoted followers than even Steiner himself might have wished. The result
is that students sometimes learn more about Steiner's scientific theories
than about Isaac Newton's. "People often think Waldorf offers an easy way
to teach the sciences," Schwartz says. "In fact it's just the opposite."
As public school officials collaborate with Waldorf leaders (who come to
public schools by invitation only), they are working out some interesting
armistices in response to their critics' epistemological warfare. There is
no uniform system as yet, and given the diverse interests of the nation's
school districts, there may never be one. Some schools follow Waldorf's
practice of using the Old Testament in the early grades, in
world-literature studies and for inspiration on student projects; others
avoid it. Most adopt Waldorf's accelerated approach to basic arithmetic and
some form of its relatively slow, layered approach to reading.
The initiatives show intriguing signs of success, particularly with
underachieving minorities. For instance, although reading scores are often
low in the early years, they generally rise dramatically by eighth grade.
But the partnerships have also presented challenges. The Waldorf pedagogy
and class readings are heavily Eurocentric; public school teachers must
modify this orientation to accommodate American literature and,
increasingly, multicultural points of view. (In California, for example,
white students may be inspired by gardening, but Hispanics generally
aren't.) And dramatic change in schools never proceeds smoothly. When
teachers are asked to try, as adults, learning to sing, play music, and
paint, many suddenly find their old ways quite attractive. As for any broad
troubles with religious indoctrination, the classes in public Waldorf
schools have been pretty well stripped of explorations of the spiritual.
*******************************************************
Else, it really was relief reading something from a normal person as you on
this list for once!
Regards,
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2377.4 ---------------
From: Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodWinter.com)
Subject: Re: hitting a student
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:13:32 -0400
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Dr. Mollet,
I noticed that you sneeked in the qualifier "normal"...would you please
define exactly when it is acceptable under _abnormal_ circumstances for a
teacher to hit a student, providing clear examples...
...Gary
David Mollet wrote:
) This is never at any time or under any normal circumstance any excuse
) for hitting a student. Teaching is not a suitable profession for such a
) person.
) Regards
) David
) *********************************
) Dr. David Mollet
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2377.5 ---------------
From: "George Aspbury" (aspbury1 worldnet.att.net)
Subject: Is Anthroposophy/ Waldorf a Cult?
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 19:38:44 -0500
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Lisa
have you finished reading Margaret Singers book and if so do
you think that Waldorf/Anthroposophy is a cult? I asked this
before but maybe you missed it.
Believe it or not (here comes a plug for Amazon.com) I
ordered this book on Fri at 1 p.m. I just finished it about
ten minutes ago mon. 7:15 p.m.
George
p.s. I have about 15 pages of notes to go over before I can
comment on this book but I will..
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2377.6 ---------------
From: Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodWinter.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf methodology/Public education
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 21:14:13 -0400
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David Mollet wrote:
) It shouldn't be surprising that someone (Eugene Schwartz) who want to
) implement exactly the opposite to what Steiner indicates should find
) common ground with an atheist (Dan Dugan). They both have the objective
) (directly or indirectly) to deprive children of the benefits of Waldorf
) methodology. The people on this list who are against Waldorf methodology
) nearly always assume, incorrectly, that Waldorf should be equated with
) private schools. It is their choice to hold the opinion that methodology
) and philosophy are indistinguishable - I do not.
)
) In this regard it is appropriate to add that I have just entered a
) contract with about 70 schools in about 12 states. The result of this is
) that in part something like an additional 150-200 teachers will use
) material based on Waldorf methodology (without anthroposophy).
)
Gary...
How exactly do you plan to "extract" anthroposophy from "Waldorf
methodology"? Spell it out for us, will you?
Dr. Mollet continued...
) We will have to wait and see what the court decides regarding whether
) the two schools are violating "separation of church and state". However,
) this does not mean that Waldorf methodology cannot be used by public
) school teachers. In theory (and with some complications as our material
) is mainly available through three distributors) between 2,000 to 3,000
) teachers could be subpoenaed to testify that Waldorf methodology can be
) used (without anthroposophy) without any constitutional complications (I
) would add that this does not include those who have accessed our
) material through the WWW).
) Regards
) David
) *********************************
) Dr. David Mollet
) Free lessons/newsletters for teachers/parents
) http://members.aol.com/WERLessons
) http://members.aol.com/WaldorfNew
) waldorfedu freewwweb.com
Gary...
Dr. Mollet, it sounds to me as though you have an awful lot to gain
*materially* from the spread of Waldorf to public schools, and a lot to
lose when the courts confirm that Waldorf is a religion and does not belong
in public schools. Does your contract "with 70 schools in 12 states" say
anything about the pending court case? Methinks this disqualifies you from
having Waldorf views that are "balanced."
By the way, if you claim that Anthroposophy is not part of your curriculum,
how is it that you have the blessing of the Waldorf community to use their
trademarked name "Waldorf"? Doesn't your curriculum need to pass a certain
level of scrutiny with the Waldorf and Anthroposophy organizations before
you are allowed to claim the Waldorf badge?
Or have you not received permission to use "Waldorf?", thus making you
liable for trademark infringement?
Please tell us more about your program, Dr. Mollet, how you got involved
with Waldorf, how long you have been involved with it, in what capacity,
and what affiliation you have with Waldorf organizations. How exactly did
you learn the Waldorf methods that you are now selling to public schools?
Full disclosure time, Dr. Mollet!
Nice photos...
http://members.aol.com/WERedu/Authors.html
...Gary
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2377.7 ---------------
From: Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodWinter.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf methodology/Public education
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 22:11:21 -0400
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Gary Bonhiver wrote:
) Please tell us more about your program, Dr. Mollet, how you got involved
) with Waldorf, how long you have been involved with it, in what capacity,
) and what affiliation you have with Waldorf organizations. How exactly did
) you learn the Waldorf methods that you are now selling to public schools?
I found your "home" page, Dr. Mollet, which speaks volumes...
Dr. Mollet writes at http://members.aol.com/WaldorfEdu/Pedagogy.html
"Welcome to David Mollet's HomePage"
"Waldorf Pedagogy"
"I've been asked how Waldorf methodology can be used in the public sector
of education. I shall be dealing with this in some depth later but would say
the following."
GB: Exactly *where* do you describe this "in some depth later?" Sources,
please!
"Some background - when I was at university I, like any other student, knew
the importance of acknowledging sources. Some years later as a Senior
Lecturer of Education I had to make sure my postgraduate students
acknowledged, in their writings, the sources they used.Why do I say this?
So that the reader appreciates that I am conversant with the correct
procedures with regard to acknowledging sources and have been for
some 35 years."
"When I taught courses on Waldorf education I naturally acknowledged
Steiner's descriptions of child development along with authors of other
theories of child development. The descriptions I gave did not cover,
or rarely covered, the different philosophies of the educationalists we
studied. It was sufficient to acknowledge the person whose theories
we were examining and to concentrate on their theories. Similarly,
when writing lectures or articles it was, of course, necessary to
acknowledge sources. Indeed it would have been unethical not to do so."
GB: How can you separate Steiner's descriptions/theories of child development
from Anthroposophy?
"My experiences teaching primary students in the dock area of thef
East End of London had a considerable influence on the ways I
viewed how a child develops. For example, I believed that we concentrated
on cognitive development at the expense of the affective. I also believed
that content and methodology should be appropriate for the mindset of
the student. In many, many cases this was not occurring because we
were hurrying the child through different phases and stages of
development and in doing so were damaging certain patterns of growth.
I saw, in Waldorf methodology and content, a different approach;
an approach that attempted to develop the cognitive and affective in
balance and harmony with each other."
"Students related very positively to some of these ideas and circumstances
evolved to the point where I found myself in a unique position as far as
taking the Waldorf approach into the public sector was concerned.
Eventually it became clear that I was devoting my working life to it
and I accepted that responsibility.
GB: What ideas did they NOT relate very positively to?
"When I started writing material it was natural and inevitable that one
of the main, if not the main, source of my writings and material was
Waldorf methodology. It would have been quite wrong for me not
to acknowledge this. So I do not see a problem. Where is the
problem? Problems only exist if I believe that I should refuse to
acknowledge the basis for a great deal of my writing. As I never do
that with any other educator whose ideas/methodology I use it would
have been wrong of me not to acknowledge the influence of Waldorf
methodology."
GB: By "Waldorf Methodology" sources, you mean, of course, the man himself,
Rudolf Steiner?
"The above is only a brief overview. Descriptions of the considerable
influence that Waldorf methodology has had on my thinking will
occur at appropriate times in the Waldorf Newsletter."
GB: "Considerable influence?" Please provide the details, Dr. Mollet! I
find it interesting that you have cleverly mentioned Steiner only once
(without his first name) and omitted Anthroposophy from your text, referring
vaguely to "Waldorf methodology"...Any reason why? Embarrassed? Or are you
hiding this information from the public, as most other Waldorf schools do?
GB: Where's your bibliography, professor?
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2377.8 ---------------
From: Rechomba cs.com
Subject: Re: joining cults/was Mr. Nice to Mr. Kopp
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 23:42:56 EDT
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In a message dated 6/12/00 4:03:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
aspbury1 worldnet.att.net writes:
George writes:
)Those who resort to one extreme often miss the big picture.
) Black humor is used to address those things that we find
) repugnant to our senses. If you are Jewish, drug abuser,
) homosexual, gypsy, etc... then I say you can a point to the
) analogy of a Nazi barbecue as being a type of humor
) otherwise it is childish and insensitive.
Yes, and what about all those artists, writers, politicals and intellectuals
george? Lets not forget about them. They fried along with the rest, not as a
scapegoat per se, but due to the threat towards nazi ideology posed by
perception, conviction in principle and a "degree of free thought".
)You assume much
) to quickly by saying that you are not surprised that I would
) not understand what you said. I know full well what you
) meant and it disgusted me. You are jumping to conclusions
) that I did understand what you meant. Lets drop this silly
) shit and address the issues without personal judgments about
) each other. Personal reactions are fine by me but
) assumptive judgments go nowhere.
If you find what I have to say disgusting then I can hardly accept that you
comprehend my argument. But you are right about being presumptuous and for
that I hope you accept my apologies.
) I subscribe to no static ideology. I see everything as being
) much more complex than a choice of two poles. I see
) everything as existing in the flux that exist within the
) paradox of the infinitely finite state of balance that
) exists between the poles of good and evil, right and wrong,
) yes and no, black and white, on and off etc.. In short I
) try to remain as open as possible to new ideas. This
) requires constant action and reaction this may seem hectic
) but I balance it by being able to live in the moment, that
) is , I can experience the bliss that comes from the
) realization of being in the infinite. Which is your
) ideology?
Practicing Agnostic. I walk a tight rope too. Requires balance.
) What is wrong with someone coming to terms with it all
) through an ideology?
If, by "coming to terms", you mean "giving up a degree of free thought", I
say absolutely not. Using the term "ideology" in context of this thread, the
reason for my objection has been clearly demon-strated. An Ideology, as an
integrated, systematic body of thought, is only acceptable, in my opinion, if
it is reached with and cultivates free, critical thinking. This does not mean
that I won't keep an open mind to certain
ideas/phenomenon/philosophies/religion that do not meet this criteria; I just
won't take the leap in proclaiming it as certainty.
) I will play word games all day if you want but I would
) rather skip the fun and games to get to the substance of the
) discussion.
What word games George? Its called debate and I am still waiting for a
substancial response towards my criticism.
)There are many lists out there where mental
) sparring is the par ...
Critical debate as in "Critics" list.
) but I would prefer to have open honest
) exchange of opinion and thought in this forum.
Absolutely!
)I find that
) in the arena of thought where the egos are checked at the
) door, the best things happen. (my opinion. I know I am free
) to leave at any time)
Now who is being presumptuous? };~)) Ray
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2377.9 ---------------
From: Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodWinter.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf methodology/Public education
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 23:53:56 -0400
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Gary Bonhiver wrote:
) By the way, if you claim that Anthroposophy is not part of your curriculum,
) how is it that you have the blessing of the Waldorf community to use their
) trademarked name "Waldorf"? Doesn't your curriculum need to pass a certain
) level of scrutiny with the Waldorf and Anthroposophy organizations before
) you are allowed to claim the Waldorf badge?
)
) Or have you not received permission to use "Waldorf?", thus making you
) liable for trademark infringement?
)
Dr. Mollet,
Here's the Trademark record,
FYI...http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=74290832
Thank you for your request. Here are the latest results from the
TARR web server.
Serial Number: 74290832
Registration Number: 1765001
Trademark (words only): WALDORF
Current Status: Section 8 and 15 affidavits have been accepted and
acknowledged.
Date of Status: 1999-03-23
Filing Date: 1992-07-06
CURRENT OWNERS
1. Association of Waldorf Schools of North America
GOODS AND SERVICES
educational services; namely, providing courses of instruction
following the teachings of Rudolph Steiner, at the primary and
secondary level
Do you have permission from the owner of this name to benefit from its use it
for essentially similar purposes?
What criteria/guidelines were you subjected to by the AWSNA in order to obtain
that permission?
Can you provide proof that you have permission?
Looking forward to your reply, as, I'm sure, is the AWSNA...
Cheers!
...Gary
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2377.10 ---------------
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Waldorf must be Waldorf/was boredom
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 23:43:19 -0400
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Yes, that is the problem, in my opinion: a Waldorf teacher HAS to be a
Waldorf teacher! Had we only known, when we enrolled our children, that the
"head is only along for the ride" we wouldn't have signed up! Silly us,
thinking that a "school" would have something to do with the "brain,"
"thinking" and the development of "intelligence!"
Intead, we got magic, esoteric bull-doody (technically not a swear word!)
and bad educational practices. But at least our child had a break from
thinking, which, if Steiner was right (ha!) will prevent our daughter from
malformed internal organs and "hardening."
----------
)From: Rose Alford (roseal teleport.com)
)To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
)Subject: Re: boredom/rose
)Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000, 1:02 PM
)
) Thanks Lisa, I will look in the archives and if I have trouble I will let
) you know.
)
) The living in the head thing that you are talking about is right out of the
) Kingdom of Childhood lecture book. I recall reading that kind of stuff.
) Steiner really believed that the head is just along for the ride, and
) should not be the most important thing in the body from what I recall. If
) the kids over-intellectualize at too young an age, they will be sick in
) middle age because of the miseducation before puberty. I don't buy into
) that but of cousre a Waldorf teacher has to be a Waldorf teacher.
)
) --Rose
)
) At 09:14 AM 6/12/00 -0400, you wrote:
))In a very informative post on educational approaches to autism, Rose Alford
))mentions, once again, her non-autistic daughter's problems at a WS:
))
)) The day is boring for her, the repetitive singing of songs
))and the endless copying from the board are her major complaints.
))
))Lisa:
))
))Rose, if you have time, check out the archives from January or so of this
))year. You will find a number of my own posts on the exact situation you are
))talking about -- only referring to my own 4th grader. We were alarmed not
))only to find out that she was copying almost everything (and I am being
))generous saying almost) from the board, but also that the teacher wanted it
))that way because our daughter 'lived too much in her head' and needed to be
))'moved down into her trunk and limbs.' The teacher said that Olivia was
))engaging in abstract thinking too early, which would lead to later problems
))(illness -- reference probably to my own chronic headache conditions from --
))could it be? thinking too much?!!!)
))
))Let me know if you can't find the information/posts in the archives. Or we
))can resurrect the topic. Boredom -- if it is caused by the child being
))forced to do "work' that is mostly copying and too slow, is NOT good
))education.
))
))
)
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2377 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2378 --------------
001 - "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2ga - temperments? Dr. Mollett?
002 - Rose Alford (roseal telep - Re: Waldorf must be Waldorf/was boredom
003 - "Sarina McDonald" (pandor - Waldorf methodology/Public education (Gary)
004 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - re: numerous quotes/sources
005 - Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodW - Re: Waldorf methodology/Public education
006 - "George Aspbury" (aspbury - Free thought was (joining cults)
007 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
008 - Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodW - Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
009 - Rose Alford (roseal telep - Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
010 - BarbaraWB aol.com - Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2378.1 ---------------
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: temperments? Dr. Mollett?
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 00:12:21 -0400
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I finally had a look -- admittedly, a quick one -- at David Mollett's
website laying out lessons/curriculum (supposedly, Waldorf without
Anthroposophy) for public school use.
I noticed, however, that you have included the "temperments" in your lessons
and approach, Dr. Mollett.
I am aware that people have been talking about other people in terms of
"temperments" since the Middle Ages, and before. However, it is only in
Waldorf pedagogy, at least that I know of, that teachers are asked to take a
child's "temperment" into consideration in the teaching of reading, math,
etc.
I would be honestly very interested to hear why you, a supposed educational
expert, would include something so archaic and, I would argue, so useless,
in a curriculum that you say is workable, based on real results, etc. In my
view, basing pedagogy on "the four temperments" is basically an inclusion of
anthroposophy into your "non-Anthroposophical" curriculum.
Lisa Ercolano
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2378.2 ---------------
From: Rose Alford (roseal teleport.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf must be Waldorf/was boredom
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 21:32:10 -0700
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In-Reply-To: (200006130353.UAA04568 lists1.best.com)
Lisa, I have looked at the archives and could not find your postings
regarding your personal situation. If you still have them in your out
mailbox can you resend them to me?
Today I got to view the last "performance" of the 4th grade. They passed
beanbags around, to the left to the right, and they marched around. The
teacher played a small accordion while they marched. They sang, they
played their flutes, and on and on. Some of the children were really into
it all. Personally, I don't know what to make of the whole thing. The
main question I had was why?
In grade 4, they do Norse mythology. I enjoyed the plays they put on based
on these myths, but this "performance" today seemed like some kind of weird
show. Does anyone have experience with the strange things that they make
the kids do? The teacher wants to show that he can make the kids do all
these things, but what is the point? Does anyone have an opinion on why
they do these things? Why do they have to play the flute and sing all
these strange songs?
Ironically, tomorrow the whole class is going on a bike ride which is part
of their local geography lessons. I find this much more productive for
them at the very least they will be getting fresh air and exercise. Thank
goodness that Wednesday is the last day of the school year and I will have
the summer to sort all this out.
--Rose
At 11:43 PM 6/12/00 -0400, you wrote:
)Yes, that is the problem, in my opinion: a Waldorf teacher HAS to be a
)Waldorf teacher! Had we only known, when we enrolled our children, that the
)"head is only along for the ride" we wouldn't have signed up! Silly us,
)thinking that a "school" would have something to do with the "brain,"
)"thinking" and the development of "intelligence!"
)
)Intead, we got magic, esoteric bull-doody (technically not a swear word!)
)and bad educational practices. But at least our child had a break from
)thinking, which, if Steiner was right (ha!) will prevent our daughter from
)malformed internal organs and "hardening."
)
)----------
))From: Rose Alford (roseal teleport.com)
))To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
))Subject: Re: boredom/rose
))Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000, 1:02 PM
))
)
)) Thanks Lisa, I will look in the archives and if I have trouble I will let
)) you know.
))
)) The living in the head thing that you are talking about is right out of the
)) Kingdom of Childhood lecture book. I recall reading that kind of stuff.
)) Steiner really believed that the head is just along for the ride, and
)) should not be the most important thing in the body from what I recall. If
)) the kids over-intellectualize at too young an age, they will be sick in
)) middle age because of the miseducation before puberty. I don't buy into
)) that but of cousre a Waldorf teacher has to be a Waldorf teacher.
))
)) --Rose
))
)) At 09:14 AM 6/12/00 -0400, you wrote:
)))In a very informative post on educational approaches to autism, Rose Alford
)))mentions, once again, her non-autistic daughter's problems at a WS:
)))
))) The day is boring for her, the repetitive singing of songs
)))and the endless copying from the board are her major complaints.
)))
)))Lisa:
)))
)))Rose, if you have time, check out the archives from January or so of this
)))year. You will find a number of my own posts on the exact situation you are
)))talking about -- only referring to my own 4th grader. We were alarmed not
)))only to find out that she was copying almost everything (and I am being
)))generous saying almost) from the board, but also that the teacher wanted it
)))that way because our daughter 'lived too much in her head' and needed to be
)))'moved down into her trunk and limbs.' The teacher said that Olivia was
)))engaging in abstract thinking too early, which would lead to later problems
)))(illness -- reference probably to my own chronic headache conditions
from --
)))could it be? thinking too much?!!!)
)))
)))Let me know if you can't find the information/posts in the archives. Or we
)))can resurrect the topic. Boredom -- if it is caused by the child being
)))forced to do "work' that is mostly copying and too slow, is NOT good
)))education.
)))
)))
))
)
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2378.3 ---------------
From: "Sarina McDonald" (pandora aa.net)
Subject: Waldorf methodology/Public education (Gary)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 22:02:16 -0700
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Hi Gary,
Dr. Mollet gets to use the name Waldorf because he is "grandfathered in" -
he was using it before AWSNA trademarked it.
You are jumping to conclusions when you say "cleverly mentioned Steiner only
once (without his first name) and omitted Anthroposophy from your text." Dr.
Mollet and his wife Joyce have simply designed curricula which incorporates
some of the better ideas from WE, omitting the Anthroposophy, with
mainstream subject matter. (I purchased several of his curriculum packets
for my son and they are very impressive.) I see no reason why he should fawn
over Rudi like the Waldorf teachers do - Rudi isn't his guru, any more than
he is mine. But that doesn't mean that the man might not have had some good
ideas to learn from.
If you would take the time to read through the rest of the Mollet's website,
I'm sure you will find all of the answers to your questions. (I suggest this
because I doubt that Dr. Mollet likes to repeat himself any more than
Michael Kopp does.) I see that you have done further research on his site,
but I think you still have more reading to do, of the curriculum itself.
I wish I had had teachers like Joyce & David when I went to my local public
school!
BTW:
I apologize if anyone has already provided any of the above information; I
am on digest so I don't get each post as it comes in.
Sarina McDonald
Bainbridge Island, WA
pandora aa.net
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2378.4 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: re: numerous quotes/sources
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 00:20:25 -0700
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In-Reply-To: (200006121133.EAA28923 lists1.best.com)
Barbara, you wrote,
)As I read these posts I think about a PLANS conference - has there ever been
)one?
)I'm tempted to joke a little about where it could be held, the agenda, and so
)on, but will refrain.
Please go ahead. Before you were here we had fun casting a fantasy
movie with the characters from the Waldorf controversy. But keep it
light, beware the ad hominem dragon.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2378.5 ---------------
From: Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodWinter.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf methodology/Public education
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:13:24 -0400
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Sarina McDonald wrote:
) Dr. Mollet gets to use the name Waldorf because he is "grandfathered in" -
) he was using it before AWSNA trademarked it.
GB: How do you know this? He does not make it clear in his web site that he
is NOT affiliated with AWSNA or other Walforf/Anthoposophy organizations...in
fact they are not even mentioned! By doing so, he is "riding on the coat
tails" of the recent popularity of AWSNA-affiliated Waldorf schools, but in
addition to the current "positive" Waldorf aura he also takes on the negative
criticism, unless he very clearly distances himself from the Mother Ship.
) You are jumping to conclusions when you say "cleverly mentioned Steiner only
) once (without his first name) and omitted Anthroposophy from your text." Dr.
) Mollet and his wife Joyce have simply designed curricula which incorporates
) some of the better ideas from WE, omitting the Anthroposophy, with
) mainstream subject matter. (I purchased several of his curriculum packets
) for my son and they are very impressive.) I see no reason why he should fawn
) over Rudi like the Waldorf teachers do - Rudi isn't his guru, any more than
) he is mine. But that doesn't mean that the man might not have had some good
) ideas to learn from.
GB: If this is the case, then why doesn't Dr. Mollet publicly and clearly
distance himself and his program from Rudi's bizzare and racist statements,
disavowing any belief in and/or association with Anthoposophy? Simple omission
is not enough, due to the concept of "guilt by association"! If he wants to
use the "best of" Waldorf methods, he must not only be held to the high
standards of full disclosure that we are demanding from the AWSNA-affiliated
schools, but he must also also clearly disavow Steiner's dark side if he wants
to bring these methods to public schools.
) If you would take the time to read through the rest of the Mollet's website,
) I'm sure you will find all of the answers to your questions. (I suggest this
) because I doubt that Dr. Mollet likes to repeat himself any more than
) Michael Kopp does.) I see that you have done further research on his site,
) but I think you still have more reading to do, of the curriculum itself.
GB: I have read much of his site, but high-level curriculum bullets are not my
idea of description or disclosure. Is Dr. Mollet willing to submit his
detailed curriculm materials to scrutiny? I should think that he would want to
be able to claim that his course materials "passed muster" with Waldorf
critics.
) I wish I had had teachers like Joyce & David when I went to my local public
) school!
GB: You of course are entitled to your opinion, just as I am entitled to my
skepticism.
...Gary Bonhiver
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2378.6 ---------------
From: "George Aspbury" (aspbury1 worldnet.att.net)
Subject: Free thought was (joining cults)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:10:57 -0500
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In-Reply-To: (200006130345.UAA00166 lists1.best.com)
Taken aside from any debate about whether or not there is
freewill or thought I have a few things to say about
ideology. An ideology can exist on many scales of
influence. One can have an ideology that directs how they
pay a tip at a restaurant or on the other extreme one could
have an ideology that directs how they do everything life.
I view ideologies as a means to an end. The end result is
an idealized concept. There are many ways to get to this
end goal. An ideology is used when things come up that
upset preconceived notions about something. Ideologies can
be seen as simple programs by which we deal with the
multitude of life's situations. In short having an ideology
is a strategy for making life easier. Problems arise when
spheres of ideology intersect one another. This intersecting
is not always pleasant. The larger the scale of the
ideology the greater chance for a volatile reaction when
they come in contact with like scale ideologies. For
example the basic ideology at the core of many religions is
usually very small but the outlying effects of this core can
produce violent reactions when it comes into contact with
other core ideologies. The scale of influence is determined
by the relative stability of the core. Failed ideologies
litter human history and they have a few things in common.
Those ideologies that relied on the convictions of a few
eventually die out. Sometimes the scope of the ideology
becomes impossible to hold together from a central core and
it falls apart. Other times the individual responsible for
the ideology dies and the ideology fades away. etc....
This brings us to the problem of free thought. A person can
only accept an ideology as truth if they believe it. No one
can be forced to truly believe in an idea. There are
ideologies whose scope influences people who do not agree
with it. This is this is what, I believe, Ray has issue
with. In the instance of ideologies which thrive on putting
others down I can say that each case needs to be looked at
and judged. My initial reaction is that when I see a
government or group imprisoning others for their beliefs I
think that it is wrong. Not all people who live in
totalitarian states hate it. Some people fight against
oppression others sit back in their relative comfort and
take what they can get.
Some might be saying no way can this be true. One only
needs to look at a large former communist country who opened
itself up to democracy and capitalism only to have the
average citizen suffer more. This has resulted in the
democratic reelections of communist leaders. Freedom of
thought doesn't mean much when you can't even feed your
family.
We all give up certain degrees of free thought we all take
away free thought from others. That is the way of life as a
human animal. Food for thought : are you taking freedom
from someone when you live, even the simplest life, in
America or Europe or any affluent place? Of course you do.
When you are sitting in your dining area in your home think
of the thousands of people dying at that moment from
starvation. When you are laying in your bed at night think
of the millions of people who would be happy for a dry piece
of dirt. When you sit at your computer reading this message
think about the selfish waste of resources needed to carry
on these silly debates. Etc.....
The next type of ideology in which free will can be
exercised or not is Religion. Religion serves an important
purpose in peoples lives. Religious ideologies serve to
guide people and to give both meaning and purpose to life.
What is wrong with giving up free though to such
ideologies??
There is the issue of cults. Cults represent very specific,
albeit not always up front, ideologies. They, like
religions serve to focus ones life on something. Cults that
use deception to get people to do the bidding of the guru
are terrible. The cult issue is not that simple though.
Lisa are we going to talk about cults, you did mention it. I
still want to know if people see Waldorf/Anthroposophy as a
cult.
As a final note I feel that one must not declare to broadly
that all ideologies are bad. One must look at the context
in order to judge for themselves. There will be ideologies
that we can see good in and there will be ideologies that we
find evil in. What I am saying to you, Ray, is that I don't
automatically judge ideology as being black or white. I
would agree that your extreme (and offensive to me) example
is one of an ideology which died out and was what I would
call evil.
George
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2378.7 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 15:27:06 GMT
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Frankly I am just so amazed that Sune is willing to pursue this tangled
argument in order to defend a teacher hitting students, that it is hard to
know whether to answer point by point - or let the mere fact that he is
passionately defending this person speak for itself.
[Diana, re: teacher hitting student:]
)It is likely to get worse, not better.
[Sune:]
)Quite agree; In few years, the new teacher will likely kill his first
)victim.
[Diana:]
)This is called denial, Sune.
[Sune:]
)What is your summarizing judgement:
)"It is likely to get worse, not better."
)called? Logic and not knee-jerk critizism of anything waldorf?
Frankly it has nothing to do with Waldorf. A teacher who hits students and
isn't fired is likely to go on hitting students. To me, that means the
situation gets worse. Children continue to be hurt.
[sune:]
)My answer displayed the implied meaning of your judgement: "likely to )get
)worse". Being a logically oriented person, I assumed your )judgement was
)not to be taken as rhetoric. Now you say it was:
) ) Doubtful he or she will kill anyone. Very
) ) likely he or she will continue to hit children if no one takes a )
)strong stand that this will not be acceptable.
)"if":
)What you wrote was _after_ you knew - if you read the actual source for
)this discussion - that - the teacher had been reported to the State )Bureau
)of Investigation, - that he immediately only was allowed to )continue
)teaching in other classes with the main teacher of the )classes in question
)present during the few days until- he would be )scrutinized, probably by
)the college of teachers as to his )understanding of his task, methods of
)work and of his pedagogical )abilities.
)Which by the way was characterized by the moderator with the "not
)knee-jerk" comment as displaying "The arrogance of the faculty" when
)introducing this thread on the list.
)Knowing the practice in waldorf schools to use professionals from
) )different professions, like painters and musicians, and academics,
) )without any specific waldorf training, as teachers for specific )morning
)period subjects (their own) in the upper grades,
Are you trying to say if this teacher had had Waldorf training, he would
*not* have hit a student?
)I have a hunch the teacher discussed with such intensity in this case )is
)such a not specifically pedagogically trained or experienced )musician
)(something the moderator probably also is aware of), after 4 )days of
)harassment by some 13 year kids in the class found he did not )accept their
)behaviour any more.
So we come to the heart of your argument - why it is possible to offer up
multiple extenuating circumstances - their behavior was not acceptable. The
behavior of the student who was hit was not acceptable.
)If you read the original article at all, the source of this discussion,
)you'd have noticed the teachers name was Matthias.
How is his name relevant, Sune? This is your usual trick to make it appear I
am not informed on the facts. The only fact I need to know in such a case is
that a teacher hit students. I need *no* other facts to conclude the teacher
should be fired, and probably prosecuted for assault. "Scrutiny" by a
committee while this teacher comes to class every day, even with another
adult present, is lame. If you want to call that knee-jerk, that's fine with
me.
Absolutely, I have a knee-jerk reaction that a teacher who hits students
should be fired. I really don't need to hear what the committee said or how
old the children were or the teacher's personal biography. Aren't you in
Sweden, where it is illegal to hit children? The only defense for a teacher
hitting a student is self-defense. Otherwise, you bet, I will instantly say
the teacher should be fired. I stand by that completely. The *children* come
first, not whatever problems or situations may "explain" the teacher's
actions.
[Diana:]
)After they get the hell out of any classroom *my*
)child is sitting in, I wish them all the best in their effort to )change.
[Sune:]
)"They", a new example of your quick, extrapolating, not not rhetorical
)knee-jerk "logic" ...
Yep. "They" meaning whoever they are. I'm not interested in the least in
hearing about their problems. If they hit children, my child's outta there.
Diana
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2378.8 ---------------
From: Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodWinter.com)
Subject: Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 12:05:59 -0400
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References: (200006082348.QAA12207 lists1.best.com)
(200006090008.RAA27344 lists1.best.com) (200006090100.SAA09419 lists1.best.com) (200006091026.DAA11907 lists1.best.com)
Sune Nordwall wrote:
) The music teacher came as a new teacher to a class of 13-year old kids. The
) pupils tested his limits and made fun of him. He got angry and slapped some
) of them. It was a mistake in a to him new situation that he had not yet
) learnt to handle and he probably regretted it. It was a one-time mistake at
) the beginning of his work at the school.
Thus far we have all focused upon the violent reaction of the teacher, which
is certainly worth indicting.
Shouldn't we also consider why a Waldorf-educated class was so unruly and
bad-mannered as to cause a teacher to "snap" and react in such a way? "The
pupils tested his limits and made fun of him." What does this say about
Waldorf education of "the whole person?"
....Gary
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2378.9 ---------------
From: Rose Alford (roseal teleport.com)
Subject: Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:56:19 -0700
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References: (200006082348.QAA12207 lists1.best.com)
(200006090008.RAA27344 lists1.best.com)
(200006090100.SAA09419 lists1.best.com)
(200006091026.DAA11907 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200006131607.JAA18733 lists1.best.com)
Children at W schools can be just as bad as children in other schools. In
fact two girls were expelled because they tried to burn down the school
last February. I thought that expulsion was a little to harsh and I guess
the school did not take into account that they were only 12 years old and
that according to Steiner they still had no cause and effect reasoning (if
I start a fire in the wastpaper basket of the girls room, it might burn
down the whole school.) I still don't understand why they did not give the
girls a second chance being that it is a W school. Was it hypocritical or
what?
--Rose
At 12:05 PM 6/13/00 -0400, you wrote:
)Sune Nordwall wrote:
)
)) The music teacher came as a new teacher to a class of 13-year old kids. The
)) pupils tested his limits and made fun of him. He got angry and slapped some
)) of them. It was a mistake in a to him new situation that he had not yet
)) learnt to handle and he probably regretted it. It was a one-time mistake at
)) the beginning of his work at the school.
)
)Thus far we have all focused upon the violent reaction of the teacher, which
)is certainly worth indicting.
)
)Shouldn't we also consider why a Waldorf-educated class was so unruly and
)bad-mannered as to cause a teacher to "snap" and react in such a way? "The
)pupils tested his limits and made fun of him." What does this say about
)Waldorf education of "the whole person?"
)
)....Gary
)
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2378.10 ---------------
From: BarbaraWB aol.com
Subject: Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:17:33 EDT
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In a message dated 6/13/00 1:03:39 PM, roseal teleport.com writes:
(( In
fact two girls were expelled because they tried to burn down the school
last February. I thought that expulsion was a little to harsh and I guess
the school did not take into account that they were only 12 years old and
that according to Steiner they still had no cause and effect reasoning (if
I start a fire in the wastpaper basket of the girls room, it might burn
down the whole school.) ))
When children are suspended from school or expelled they learn that their
behavior is UNACCEPTABLE. Cultures all over the world socialize children by
excluding them from the groups for aberrant behavior.
Children who are lighting fires, especially at age 12, need major
help and I do not mean "curative eurythmy!" I find this an absolutely
alarming post.
I hope these girls were expelled and not simply suspended.
Barbara
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2378 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2379 --------------
001 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - TRSD board members ruining schools
002 - Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodW - Re: Waldorf methodology/Public education
003 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: Thanks and a thought
004 - Rose Alford (roseal telep - Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
005 - "George Aspbury" (aspbury - RE: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
006 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
007 - Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodW - Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
008 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
009 - "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2ga - Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
010 - "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2ga - setting fires
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2379.1 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: TRSD board members ruining schools
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:28:52 -0800
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The Union, Western Nevada County, California www.theunion.com
6/13/00
Letters to the Editor
TRSD board members ruining schools
By Jeanette Alexander - Tue, Jun 13, 2000
I am a long-time resident of the San Juan Ridge and previous employee of
what is now the Twin Ridges School District. I am a parent of two children
who were schooled in the district, and also volunteered the whole time my
children attended school there.
I have been reading all the articles in the newspaper and have discussed
with parents and friends the plight of our school district. I am very
concerned about the efficiency of having four K-8 school sites and one K-5
site serving 150 students within a 15-mile radius.
How are my taxes best being used by this system? Twin Ridges already has
two public charter schools at the Bitney Springs Charter Park in Grass
Valley, which Ridge students are free to attend. There is also the Twin
Ridges Home Study Charter School for those wishing to home school their
children, which is presently located at Oak Tree School.
The school board members' responses to Rev. Guffin's "Other Voices" column
were disturbing. Will the board and administration address community
concerns, or is criticism not allowed?
What is the school district's mission statement? Why are we taking on other
Waldorf charter schools when there is a lawsuit pending with Yuba River
Charter? Why do we have to take on far-flung charter schools in Northern
California when their districts of residence can deny them? Are we not only
decreasing our public school's enrollment but also that of other
traditional public schools in the county?
Although there hasn't been a school board election recently, and the
current members have been appointed, shouldn't they still represent the
original school district as well as the charters? Has the primary goal of
educating all children on the Ridge been lost?
I am proud to say that my children went to Oak Tree and Grizzly Hill
schools. They received a sound education that has prepared them well for
high school and higher education.
Jeanette Alexander
North San Juan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2379.2 ---------------
From: Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodWinter.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf methodology/Public education
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:31:05 -0400
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References: (200006130353.UAA04569 lists1.best.com) (200006130507.WAA11702 lists1.best.com) (200006131313.GAA12637 lists1.best.com)
I've been exploring Dr. Mollet's web site some more.
At the following link Dr. Mollet whines endlessly about how PLANS and
Anthroposophical Waldorfians are spoiling his opportunities to sell his own brand
of Waldorf to public schools.
http://members.aol.com/WaldorfEdu/Atlantic.html
He cries about how his only concern is with "the children missing out" on his
special brand of Waldorf. Give me a break! If he were doing this all gratis, I
might give him the benefit of the doubt, but he has a very slick marketing machine
going here, and he has a lot of money to make from the sales of his educational
tools and from speaking engagements, all based on the "Waldorf" brand name.
He is apparently very naive about public relations and the concept of
guilt-by-association. Whether he likes it or not, the brand name "Waldorf"
carries a lot of negative baggage. He has no hesitation to use it to his benefit,
but he whines when the negative aspects are associated (justifiably or not) with
his program.
Dr. Mollet may very well have a good program that successfully extracts the Anthro
garbage from the "good stuff"...I'm not one to judge because I haven't seen the
"meat" of his programs. But he's going to have trouble as long as he keeps
exploiting the Waldorf name. Perhaps he should use another name...The Mollet
Methodology...and provide source attribution where appropriate, not only to
Steiner, but to other educators as well. This will free him to choose "the best
of" all educational theories, packaging them into something entirely new, free of
the Anthro/Steiner stigma.
But lo, he will have to work much harder to market this new name ("Mollet? Who's
Mollet?), rather than sitting back comfortably riding the wake of the Mother
Ship...
...Gary
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2379.3 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Thanks and a thought
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 17:32:53 GMT
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[Chris:]
)raising questions I did not know needed to be raised about a school, )like
)"How many selves do you think my son has?" and "Do your
)teachers subscribe to any fantastical and racist beliefs about the
)evolution of human beings?"
[Sune:]
)During the times I worked at waldorf schools, I never once met a )parent or
)teacher considering or discussing the questions you mention. They probably
)stand out as just as esoteric and strange to the great majority of all
)waldorf teachers as they do to you and play the corresponding degree of
)role in their work.
Sune, it is hard to believe you are even trying to be honest here. Almost
all the teachers in the school I worked in did indeed believe in and
regularly discuss at length in Steiner study in faculty meetings the four
selves (assuming Chris was referring to the physical, etheric, and astral
bodies and the ego). This is the very basis of anthroposophy and of the
teachers' understanding and discussions of the children. These things were
discussed concretely - individual children were discussed in terms of weak
etheric forces, or astrality being awakened too soon, etc., lest you try
next to say I am talking about some kind of philosophy seminar everyone
attended on the weekend. I am not. I am talking about how specific
children's development, problems, etc., were understood by the teachers in
daily discussions.
As for "fantastical and racist beliefs about the evolution of human beings,"
the question of whether said beliefs are racist is very complicated
(personally, I believe some of Steiner's statements were racist, though it
doesn't mean any teacher who has studied them is therefore a racist).
But it is clear that many Waldorf teachers do take Steiner's view of the
evolution of humanity very seriously, including the earlier forms of
humanity in Atlantis, and on other planets, and the role of the various
spiritual beings like Michael in the course of human history, etc. Certainly
the majority of teachers at our school took these things very seriously.
Would they say they agreed literally with all this stuff? I don't know. Some
would certainly agree, others would be more likely to say something like, "I
am allowing that idea to live in me."
Diana
________________________________________________________________________
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2379.4 ---------------
From: Rose Alford (roseal teleport.com)
Subject: Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:45:25 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In-Reply-To: (200006131719.KAA28920 lists1.best.com)
Yes, they were expelled the same day that it happened via the College of
Teachers. I still am not sure it was the right thing to do despite your
post. If it was your daughter, you might think differently. What I wanted
to know was why they started the fire? Is it because they secretly hated
the school or they were thinking they were pulling some kind of prank?
Twelve year olds are still children and they were going to have to take a
fire class from the fire department because of the incident. Don't you
think that a suspension and the fire class would have been appropriate
enough? Any child shrinks out there who have an opinion on this?
--Rose
At 01:17 PM 6/13/00 EDT, you wrote:
)
)In a message dated 6/13/00 1:03:39 PM, roseal teleport.com writes:
)
)(( In
)fact two girls were expelled because they tried to burn down the school
)last February. I thought that expulsion was a little to harsh and I guess
)the school did not take into account that they were only 12 years old and
)that according to Steiner they still had no cause and effect reasoning (if
)I start a fire in the wastpaper basket of the girls room, it might burn
)down the whole school.) ))
)
)When children are suspended from school or expelled they learn that their
)behavior is UNACCEPTABLE. Cultures all over the world socialize children by
)excluding them from the groups for aberrant behavior.
)
)Children who are lighting fires, especially at age 12, need major
)help and I do not mean "curative eurythmy!" I find this an absolutely
)alarming post.
)I hope these girls were expelled and not simply suspended.
)
)Barbara
)
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2379.5 ---------------
From: "George Aspbury" (aspbury1 worldnet.att.net)
Subject: RE: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 12:52:10 -0500
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In-Reply-To: (200006131653.JAA14974 lists1.best.com)
)[rose]
) Children at W schools can be just as bad as
) children in other schools. In
) fact two girls were expelled because they tried
) to burn down the school
) last February.
Did they try to burn down the school or did they start a
fire in a waste can? One is not the other.
) I thought that expulsion was a
) little to harsh and I guess
) the school did not take into account that they
) were only 12 years old and
) that according to Steiner they still had no cause
) and effect reasoning (if
) I start a fire in the wastpaper basket of the
) girls room, it might burn
) down the whole school.) I still don't understand
) why they did not give the
) girls a second chance being that it is a W
) school. Was it hypocritical or
) what?
Private schools have the luxury of casting aside those who
are problems unlike the public schools which must provide
alternative education to those who might otherwise not
receive an education.
George
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2379.6 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 20:48:04 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (200006131529.IAA00900 lists1.best.com)
Diana Winters wrote:
) Frankly it has nothing to do with Waldorf. A teacher who hits students and
) isn't fired is likely to go on hitting students. To me, that means the
) situation gets worse. Children continue to be hurt.
As a persistent and consequent person, I take this to mean that you also
think that a parent who _once_ makes the mistake of slapping his or her
audacious 13-14 year old son or daughter on the ear should be immediately
"fired" as a parent, that is: the son or daughter placed in a foster home,
and the parent prevented for the rest of his or her life from ever becoming
a parent and/or being responsible for a child in a parent situation or at
some form of work again.
Feeling you may find it difficult not to get the last word in any
discussion you enter, I hereby leave it to you.
For the record, as Detlef has informed of, the teacher, not as a knee-jerk
reaction, but after consideration, was left to search his further way in
life outside the work as a music teacher at the school.
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2379.7 ---------------
From: Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodWinter.com)
Subject: Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 15:28:44 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (200006131529.IAA00900 lists1.best.com) (200006131852.LAA27924 lists1.best.com)
Sune Nordwall wrote:
) the teacher...was left to search his further way in
) life outside the work as a music teacher at the school.
What kind of New Age / Anthropop / loony crap is this?!?
Sune, try for once in your life try to speak directly and simply rather than
passively and evasively. Say in 4 words -- "The teacher was fired" -- instead
of your 21 word meaningless garbage.
Write this on the chalkboard 100 times, waving your arms and stomping your feet
rythmically (and symetrically) between each sentence, and report to us in the
morning how it felt and what you learned.
...Gary
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2379.8 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 23:03:14 +0200
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References: (200006131529.IAA00900 lists1.best.com) (200006131852.LAA27924 lists1.best.com) (200006131929.MAA26719 lists1.best.com)
Gary Bonhiver wrote:
) Sune, try for once in your life try to speak directly and simply rather than
) passively and evasively. Say in 4 words -- "The teacher was fired" -- instead
) of your 21 word meaningless garbage.
Detlef said it, you say it. I'm not much of a choir man.
) Write this on the chalkboard 100 times, waving your arms and stomping your feet
) rythmically (and symmetrically) between each sentence, and report to us in the
) morning how it felt and what you learned.
I'll consider your suggestion ... :-)
Sorry,
YES!, SIR! CAPTAIN!, SIR!
If you make my breakfast, I'll tell you the result.
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2379.9 ---------------
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 17:06:41 -0400
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Go, Gary!
----------
)From: Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodWinter.com)
)To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
)Subject: Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
)Date: Tue, Jun 13, 2000, 3:28 PM
)
) Sune Nordwall wrote:
)
)) the teacher...was left to search his further way in
)) life outside the work as a music teacher at the school.
)
) What kind of New Age / Anthropop / loony crap is this?!?
)
) Sune, try for once in your life try to speak directly and simply rather than
) passively and evasively. Say in 4 words -- "The teacher was fired" -- instead
) of your 21 word meaningless garbage.
)
) Write this on the chalkboard 100 times, waving your arms and stomping your
feet
) rythmically (and symetrically) between each sentence, and report to us in the
) morning how it felt and what you learned.
)
) ...Gary
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2379.10 ---------------
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: setting fires
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 17:16:46 -0400
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I am in disbelief that anyone would quarrel that a school had done the
wrong thing, or been too harsh, by expelling students (age 12) who had set a
fire at school!
Rose, for someone who is "questioning" Waldorf, you certainly seem to
buy into the Anthro child development model -- ie) children under the age of
14 are incapable of abstract thought and real reasoning, therefore, they
were not "responsible." Sheer rubbish. (I advise deeper and harder
questioning. Think other, more modern child development models, instead of
Medieval ones!)
Children who set fires need serious attention to be paid to their
emotional/mental health. Firesetting is a warning sign, and a dangerous one,
that means far more, in most cases, than just "I don't like my school." It
is generally thought of as a sign of deep, deep anger and disturbance, and
as Barbara said, needs more than "curative eurythmy."
Frankly, I am surprised that a Waldorf school would show such good sense
in expelling the fire-setting children.
In my experience, Anthroposophists seem usually to believe that almost
any problem -- no matter how extreme or difficult -- can be "cured" or
mitigated via their armament of therapies, which include painting and
coloring with certain color crayons and paints; the use of Weleda or Wala
anthro-homeopathic remedies; anthroposophic mental health counseling; and
eurythmy. Oh, yes, also, the Extra Lesson, a ritual exercise in white magic
utilizing the usual occult symbols of the five pointed star, the spiral,
crystals, rods, and so forth.
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2379 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2380 --------------
001 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Thanks and a thought
002 - Rose Alford (roseal telep - Re: setting fires
003 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Ten Reasons to Say No to Waldorf
004 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
005 - "Sarina McDonald" (pandor - Re: setting fires (Lisa)
006 - Rose Alford (roseal telep - Re: Ten Reasons to Say No to Waldorf
007 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: setting fires (Lisa)
008 - Rechomba cs.com - Re: Thanks and a thought
009 - Rechomba cs.com - Re: setting fires
010 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - [for Ray] Occult wet on wet color exercises
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2380.1 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Thanks and a thought
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 23:32:00 +0200
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Diana Winters wrote:
) Sune, it is hard to believe you are even trying to be honest here. Almost
) all the teachers in the school I worked in did indeed believe in and
) regularly discuss at length in Steiner study in faculty meetings the four
) selves (assuming Chris was referring to the physical, etheric, and astral
) bodies and the ego).
If the vitality and the character of people are discussed in terms of
different "selves" at waldorf schools in US, that is a new experience to
me. But I agree that I should have understood that that was what Chris
meant when mentioning it, if I had thought about it a minute more before
answering.
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2380.2 ---------------
From: Rose Alford (roseal teleport.com)
Subject: Re: setting fires
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 16:17:34 -0700
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In-Reply-To: (200006132127.OAA15995 lists1.best.com)
At 05:16 PM 6/13/00 -0400, you wrote:
) I am in disbelief that anyone would quarrel that a school had done the
)wrong thing, or been too harsh, by expelling students (age 12) who had set a
)fire at school!
) Rose, for someone who is "questioning" Waldorf, you certainly seem to
)buy into the Anthro child development model -- ie) children under the age of
)14 are incapable of abstract thought and real reasoning, therefore, they
)were not "responsible." Sheer rubbish. (I advise deeper and harder
)questioning. Think other, more modern child development models, instead of
)Medieval ones!)
I don't know what to make of Steiner's child develpment model frankly. I
have a child with autism and that kind of throws me off the spectrum. I
just thought it was inconsistent for Waldorf to throw them out like that.
I did not know the judgement level of those girls as they were W students
and so they probably did not have any. I don't know if Waldorf school
invites the Fire Department to give lectures in fire safety like other
schools do for example. If you want to be waldorf then at least be
consistently Waldorf, that is all I am saying. They (the college of
teachers) probably did do the right think in the real world, which is
unusual for them I guess.
--Rose
) Children who set fires need serious attention to be paid to their
)emotional/mental health. Firesetting is a warning sign, and a dangerous one,
)that means far more, in most cases, than just "I don't like my school." It
)is generally thought of as a sign of deep, deep anger and disturbance, and
)as Barbara said, needs more than "curative eurythmy."
) Frankly, I am surprised that a Waldorf school would show such good sense
)in expelling the fire-setting children.
) In my experience, Anthroposophists seem usually to believe that almost
)any problem -- no matter how extreme or difficult -- can be "cured" or
)mitigated via their armament of therapies, which include painting and
)coloring with certain color crayons and paints; the use of Weleda or Wala
)anthro-homeopathic remedies; anthroposophic mental health counseling; and
)eurythmy. Oh, yes, also, the Extra Lesson, a ritual exercise in white magic
)utilizing the usual occult symbols of the five pointed star, the spiral,
)crystals, rods, and so forth.
)
)
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2380.3 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Ten Reasons to Say No to Waldorf
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 17:47:16 -0700
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Here's an article "Ten Reasons to Say No to Waldorf" in Swedish:
http://home.swipnet.se/ingalill-hakan/hakan/Waldorfskolor.htm
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2380.4 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 00:53:08 GMT
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)Frankly it has nothing to do with Waldorf. A teacher who hits students )and
)isn't fired is likely to go on hitting students. To me, that means )the
)situation gets worse. Children continue to be hurt.
)As a persistent and consequent person, I take this to mean that you )also
)think that a parent who _once_ makes the mistake of slapping his )or her
)audacious 13-14 year old son or daughter on the ear should be )immediately
)"fired" as a parent, that is: the son or daughter placed )in a foster home,
)and the parent prevented for the rest of his or her )life from ever
)becoming a parent and/or being responsible for a child )in a parent
)situation or at some form of work again.
Obviously it isn't possible to do this. I have heard that in Sweden the
rates of child abuse have gone down since the law against spanking (even by
parents) was enacted. I imagine if the law actually had any teeth (if I
understand correctly, it functions more as a sort of recommendation, and no
one is actually penalized for spanking), even fewer children would be hit.
Do you think this would be a good thing, or not, Sune?
)Feeling you may find it difficult not to get the last word in any
)discussion you enter, I hereby leave it to you.
I have certainly noticed you leave me the last word, Sune. Often I ask you
direct questions which you do not even answer, so I'm guessing this is
probably the end of this discussion too.
Diana
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2380.5 ---------------
From: "Sarina McDonald" (pandora aa.net)
Subject: Re: setting fires (Lisa)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 19:03:40 -0700
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Lisa wrote:
"In my experience, Anthroposophists seem usually to believe that almost
any problem -- no matter how extreme or difficult -- can be "cured" or
mitigated via their armament of therapies"
Well, Lisa, you are probably right that a number of Waldorf schools try to
take care of everything their own way. But since it seems I always have to
come up with a contradictory experience, here's another story for ya (why
break with tradition?):
One of the carpenters who worked on our preschool addition attended a
Waldorf school from kindergarten through 6th grade, when he was kicked out.
The subject came up when he discovered that my son was being picked up by
his carpool to go to a Waldorf school (before I withdrew him, obviously). It
seems that he was expelled over an incident that happened around the time "A
Nightmare on Elm Street" first came out - our carpenter friend was kidding
around in class. With scissors. The teacher turned around and there was our
friend with 6 pairs of scissors stuck between the fingers of both hands,
"making like" Freddie Krueger at his friend's head. The teacher flipped, and
he was expelled.
Apparently this wasn't the first time he had gotten in trouble for
inappropriate behavior, he admitted, but it _was_ the last straw. Our
carpenter says it was all a misunderstanding and that he wouldn't have
actually hurt his friend, but I was inclined to agree with the school
(though I didn't say so).
So I guess not ALL Waldorf schools just sweep everything under the rug with
curative eurythmy and other gobbledy-gook.
Sarina McDonald
Bainbridge Island, WA
pandora aa.net
P.S. Lisa, I'm curious... isn't one of your kids still in a Waldorf school?
Or did you decide to finish out the year and then make the change?
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2380.6 ---------------
From: Rose Alford (roseal teleport.com)
Subject: Re: Ten Reasons to Say No to Waldorf
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 19:32:54 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In-Reply-To: (200006140051.RAA08422 lists1.best.com)
Can someone translate it into English please. I don't have any current
swedish friends at the moment.
Thanks
--Rose
At 05:47 PM 6/13/00 -0700, you wrote:
)Here's an article "Ten Reasons to Say No to Waldorf" in Swedish:
)
)http://home.swipnet.se/ingalill-hakan/hakan/Waldorfskolor.htm
)
)-Dan Dugan
)
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2380.7 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: setting fires (Lisa)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 02:30:46 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
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[Sarina wrote:]
)One of the carpenters who worked on our preschool addition attended a
)Waldorf school from kindergarten through 6th grade, when he was kicked
) )out.
)It seems that he was expelled over an incident that happened around the
)time "A Nightmare on Elm Street" first came out - our carpenter )friend was
)kidding around in class. With scissors. The teacher turned )around and
)there was our friend with 6 pairs of scissors stuck between )the fingers of
)both hands, "making like" Freddie Krueger at his )friend's head. The
)teacher flipped, and he was expelled.
)Apparently this wasn't the first time he had gotten in trouble for
)inappropriate behavior, he admitted, but it _was_ the last straw. Our
)carpenter says it was all a misunderstanding and that he wouldn't have
)actually hurt his friend, but I was inclined to agree with the school
)(though I didn't say so).
We can't know for sure, but it is very possible what troubled them was not
the threat of violence but the influence of the dreaded media. Can you ask
him, Sarina? Had he been in trouble before because he hurt anyone, or
threated to, or because he talked about movies and TV a lot?
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2380.8 ---------------
From: Rechomba cs.com
Subject: Re: Thanks and a thought
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 00:45:12 EDT
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[Sune]
) During the times I worked at waldorf schools, I never once met a )parent or
) teacher considering or discussing the questions you mention. They probably
) stand out as just as esoteric and strange to the great majority of all
) waldorf teachers as they do to you and play the corresponding degree of
) role in their work.
Sune, where the hell are you coming from? I have encountered more strange,
esoteric crap from the mouths of waldorf teachers than I have in my entire
life...and I am fairly new to waldorf! I have encountered *some* of Rudy's
bizarre concepts of education in a waldorf school and from waldorf parents.
You have to study anthroposophy in order to establish a firm philosophical
foundation for a new school --a process which I have participated in until I
came to the conclusion that anyone who professes to believe this
psuedo-intellectual nonsense cannot be trusted with children.
This is the first time you or any other anthro has remotely addressed
Rudy's "noncepts" since I have lurked this list. And when you do touch on the
subject, you proclaim denial. Get real.
As for your remark about how nice it is to have a dicussion on this list who
is normal...
"Normal is a setting on a washing machine".
Ray
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2380.9 ---------------
From: Rechomba cs.com
Subject: Re: setting fires
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 00:52:53 EDT
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In a message dated 6/13/00 2:38:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
momof2gals mindspring.com writes:
) Oh, yes, also, the Extra Lesson, a ritual exercise in white magic
) utilizing the usual occult symbols of the five pointed star, the spiral,
) crystals, rods, and so forth.
Ok Lisa, you sparked (no pun intended) my curiosity. For those of us who are
not initiated in the art, could you take the time to elaborate. Ray
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2380.10 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: [for Ray] Occult wet on wet color exercises
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 22:23:56 -0800
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In-Reply-To: (200006140455.VAA23838 lists1.best.com)
[Ray to Lisa])
)Ok Lisa, you sparked (no pun intended) my curiosity. For those of us who are
)not initiated in the art, could you take the time to elaborate. Ray
[Debra]
Allow me the honors. I've posted this before, but new folks come and it
gets recycled again. This passage takes one through a wet on wet art lesson
and then tells why certain paintings are produced. (Occult ritual alert!)
****
"... The colour sequence works as a cleansing re-orientation of soul,
helping the individuality to accept the present incarnation in a physical
body. This is clearly shown in the pictures which pupils make...
These exercises are not suitable until the twelfth has been reached and
chronological history (I take this to mean Theosophy's world view.-ds)
has been introduced. It is at this time that the first awareness of the
skeleton wakens into consciousness...During such a process the pupil
improves his whole bearing and outlook. Problems of the soul are solved
in sleep life and the individuality takes hold of his body with his whole
will.
To prepare the first colour sequence which is vermillion with a magenta
star form, let the pupil first experience his body as a star, standing
with his feet apart, his arms raised horizontally from his sides, head
erect. He could be reminded of the verse with its movements that he
learnt in Class Four.
1. 'I place myself steadfastly into existence.'
(from standing with feet together, place the
left foot to the left away from the body.)
2. 'With confidence I tread the path of life.'
(Right foot placed to the right of body - the child
is now standing with feet apart.)
3. 'Love I nurse in the core of my being.'
(Left arm raised to the side shoulder level, remaining
held so.)
4. 'Hope I lay into all my doing.'
(Right arm raised to shoulder level.)
5. 'Confidence I impress into my thinking.'
(Head held so that pupil gazes straight in front but
with the head pressed slightly back.)
Release the star gesture in the following order. Relax head pressure,
right arm to side, left arm to side. Right foot to centre, left foot to
its side so that both feet are together as at the beginning of the verse.
This experience can be strengthened by jumping into the star-form, one or
three times.
The painting can now be made. There are two methods which may be used.
First exercise. Cover the paper with vermillion red using long unbroken
brush strokes across the paper from left to right, commencing at the top
of the page. In this way the nervious 'brushing' of the paint is
controlled and the pupil learns how to put on a good wash. The brush
stroke can be repeated from the place where the colour lightens to obtain
an even tone. The star form can then be taken out of this colour-mass by
brish or sponge. Alternatively, the vermillion wash may be made and the
star form left uncoloured. This is suitable when repition of the colour
sequence is repeated. Nothing is said about the quality of the vermillion
red or its effect on the soul. (Deception alert-ds)
In this first exercise only, I ask the pupil what colour he would choose
for the star, so that the vermillion red is held back from the star and
kept in balance. Most children immediately say - yellow - and therein
lies the problem. Yellow is the colour which should not be confined, it
needs to dissolve and fly away. The soul is 'holding on' to something
which needs to be released. The vermillion is drawing out the 'congealed'
yellow in the soul. I have allowed the pupil to paint-in the star with
yellow, as I have noted that it is these two colours which Fra-Angekico
used in his paintings for Mary Magdalene. I then ask my pupil if he likes
the effect. If the answer is yes, I make no comment. We repeat the
exercise at the next lesson, asking what colour the star should be. When
he gives the answer that he does not like the effect, we discuss the
relationship between the two colours, for example, that the yellow makes
the vermillion hot. Then comes the question, how shall we cool the
vermillion red? There are some children who insist on the yellow, others
will suggest different colours, and then realize they are not
satisfactory. We can now tell them to paint the star in the pale
peach-blossom-like magenta. This always brings great satisfaction. I have
learned to dwell on this first combination for several weeks and then to
proceed with the sequence in their order, telling the pupils which
colours to use.
...(5 more exercises described, the six pointed star in prussion blue
w/orange background, a pale orange circle w/yellow background, leaf-like
forms in greens, cobalt blue background w/ a carmine lemniscate, violet
background w/cobalt blue square: -ds)
Let us now consider the exercises in relation to their colours and forms.
*The red vermillion and the star.* (Both from Rudolf Steiner). The five
point star belongs to the rose, the red rose which is symbolic of the
purified blood of the human being, a blood which no longer carries the
desire element implanted in it though the effect of the temptation of
Lucifer. Our blood is formed in the marrow of our bones, within a
fortress, secure from intrusion. Here our red and white corpuscles are
formed and liberated and entering the circulatorysystem become the basis
for our will and karma from the past. Through the vermillion red
activity, all that is dross is separated out and the archetype of
purified man stands before us in the form of the five pointed star and
the magenta colour. The Alpha letter was chosen for a similar reason that
in the beginning of time the form of man was present.
*Orange and Prussian Blue with the six pointed star.* This is the birth
star of incarnation. Here upper and lower man are fused together to work
on the earth. Man incarnates in matter; substance darkens the spiritual
light. Our skeleton is densified light. The cells of our bones are
hexagonal in form. We are now stepping from inner to outer form.
Elsewhere Steiner describes orange as 'streaming in the spiritual world
just as the physical'. The star is darkened with the complementary colour
of the orange and has the quality of space. The Greek letter which is
part of the abbreviation for the name of Christ was the choice here.
*Yellow with Orange Circle*. The circle is the perfect form of the astral
body. One carries one's self-awareness in the yellow, into the stream of
earth existence. The evolutionary sequence commences with the sound of B.
Hence the choice of the letter Betta.
*Green with leaf forms*. A taking-hold of the present, an awakening into
the day-time personality with its intellectual faculties; green is a much
beloved colour in adolescence, the life forces coming under the sway of
consciousness and its dying processes in the body. The letter Theta is
the sign used for the sentence of death by the Greeks.
Note.
When painting this, the background should be in the different tones of
green, and the letter in the one tone.
*Blue with carmine lemniscate.* Blue and red are the colours of the
Madonna. They are archetypal colours of the soul, of its capacity to
experience inwardly the cold distance of blue and warm nearness of red.
They are the colours of movement, of expansion and contraction. They have
a physiological connection with the eyes - the gateway of the soul - blue
with the left eye, red with the right eye. These are the colours through
which the soul is freed from its bodily involvement and can live
objectively in its own innner space. The lemniscate is the form showing a
balancing of above and below in circulatory movement. The Greek letter
TAU is the symbol of life.
*Violet/black with blue/yellow.* (Colours by H. B-H). This is a
difficult colour combination. Hilda Boss_Hamburger referred to a notebook
reference in connection with it. This has now been published in the 1970
edition of 'Colour' page 62.
Sleep, by Audrey E. McAllen, pages 40-43
posted by Debra Snell
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2380 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2381 --------------
001 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Admin: web counter 42,752
002 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Ten Reasons to Say No to Waldorf
003 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: setting fires
004 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
005 - BarbaraWB aol.com - Re: Ten Reasons to Say No to Waldorf
006 - Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodW - Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
007 - Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodW - Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
008 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
009 - Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodW - Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
010 - Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodW - Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2381.1 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Admin: web counter 42,752
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 23:47:48 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On June 13, 2000, the PLANS web site had registered 42,752 visitors
since August 12, 1996. (Visitors, not hits, repeats on the same day are not
counted.)
We had 1668 visitors in the last 30 days, averaging 55 per day. A
small increase over last month.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2381.2 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Ten Reasons to Say No to Waldorf
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:57:23 +0200
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References: (200006140051.RAA08422 lists1.best.com)
Dan Dugan wrote:
) Here's an article "Ten Reasons to Say No to Waldorf" in Swedish:
Ah, by my old friend HÂkan. You got it from Herman?
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2381.3 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: setting fires
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:17:27 +0200
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Lisa Ercolano wrote:
) I am in disbelief that anyone would quarrel that a school had done the
) wrong thing, or been too harsh, by expelling students (age 12) who had set a
) fire at school!
On this list, it is possible to quarrel about everything at any time
happening or ever having happened at, or that ever was or is related in
some way to a waldorf school anywhere in the world. Stamps, dolls,
knitting, painting, T-shirts ... You actually mean you missed that ...?
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2381.4 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:18:50 +0200
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Diana Winters wrote:
) I imagine if the law actually had any teeth (if I
) understand correctly, it functions more as a sort of recommendation, and no
) one is actually penalized for spanking), even fewer children would be hit.
) Do you think this would be a good thing, or not, Sune?
Of course, you silly.
) I have certainly noticed you leave me the last word, Sune. Often I ask you
) direct questions which you do not even answer,
All sort of questions by different people are left unanswered on this and
other lists. I asked Dan Dugan on another, anthroposophical list on 6 June
if he intended to ask the posters there for permission first, before
quoting them in the book he has planned to write. He has not answered that
yet.
After you last post on anthroposophical medicine, I wrote to some experts
in Germany asking for info on some points in your post. The one different
persons pointed me to has not answered yet, and I imagine she is too busy
doing other thing. So I dropped it.
I also considered answering your post on your numerological game at school,
in regard to the accidental-essential aspects of it. But time is limited.
You have to prioritize, even if would have been interesting.
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2381.5 ---------------
From: BarbaraWB aol.com
Subject: Re: Ten Reasons to Say No to Waldorf
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 06:54:34 EDT
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In a message dated 6/13/00 8:59:51 PM, dan dandugan.com writes:
(( Here's an article "Ten Reasons to Say No to Waldorf" in Swedish:
http://home.swipnet.se/ingalill-hakan/hakan/Waldorfskolor.htm
-Dan Dugan
))
Grrrr - Dan, my grandmother (Swedish) has been dead (on the "other side") for
20 years now - so how am I supposed to translate this?! Try as I might I
cannot channel her..
Are there translation sites or does one have to buy software? This is just
the kind of thing I need for my upcoming oeuvre - my collective unconscious
(sorry Jung) cannot remember how to read/speak/write Swedish.
Best,
Barbara
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2381.6 ---------------
From: Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodWinter.com)
Subject: Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 09:09:24 -0400
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Sune Nordwall wrote:
) But time is limited.
) You have to prioritize, even if would have been interesting.
What else do you do with your precious time, Sune, except lurk on this and other
lists, search the internet far and wide for bizzare Anthro tidbits to share with
us, and write pseudo-intellectual Anthro drivel, secretly hoping to "convert"
the Waldorf critics? You are by far the most prolific contributor to this list
(at least since I've joined it). Does the Anthro Mother Ship pay you to do
this? Or do you just not have a life outside Anthropop?
...Gary
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2381.7 ---------------
From: Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodWinter.com)
Subject: Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 09:52:38 -0400
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Sune,
I'm sorry for "getting personal" in my earlier post...I hadn't had my morning
triple-espresso fix yet!
Have a nice day, and say "hi" to Rudi for me...
...Gary
Gary Bonhiver wrote:
) Sune Nordwall wrote:
)
) ) But time is limited.
) ) You have to prioritize, even if would have been interesting.
)
) What else do you do with your precious time, Sune, except lurk on this and other
) lists, search the internet far and wide for bizzare Anthro tidbits to share with
) us, and write pseudo-intellectual Anthro drivel, secretly hoping to "convert"
) the Waldorf critics? You are by far the most prolific contributor to this list
) (at least since I've joined it). Does the Anthro Mother Ship pay you to do
) this? Or do you just not have a life outside Anthropop?
)
) ...Gary
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2381.8 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 16:24:29 +0200
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Gary Bonhiver wrote:
) Sune,
) I'm sorry for "getting personal" in my earlier post...I hadn't had my morning
) triple-espresso fix yet!
) Have a nice day, and say "hi" to Rudi for me...
Quite OK!
) ) You are by far the most prolific contributor to this list
) ) (at least since I've joined it).
Maybe in May. So far in June only at about the level of Lisa and George.
) ) Does the Anthro Mother Ship pay you to do
) ) this?
Nope. No anthro mother ship pays my bills.
) ) Or do you just not have a life outside Anthropop?
Not "Married, with children" ... As far as I understand, Lisa and George,
as dedicated as I to this list, my "level-posters" in June, have at least
one child each; it does not stop them in their dedication to this list ...
I saw you build SQL-databases? Maybe I should do the chalkboard exercise
after all and join the SQL-crew. You recommend it, I mean programming?
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2381.9 ---------------
From: Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodWinter.com)
Subject: Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:29:48 -0400
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Sune Nordwall wrote:
) I saw you build SQL-databases? Maybe I should do the chalkboard exercise
) after all and join the SQL-crew. You recommend it, I mean programming?
Sune, I'm sorry, but I'm at a loss as to understanding what you mean by this.
...Gary
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2381.10 ---------------
From: Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodWinter.com)
Subject: Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 13:46:12 -0400
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Sune Nordwall wrote:
) You recommend it, I mean programming?
I don't know, Sune.
Programming computers and working with SQL databases requires a very literal,
patient, focused mind...no magical thinking or day-dreaming allowed, and I'm
afraid that your clairvoyance skills are of no use, since computers at their
essence are a pile (albeit carefully designed) of metal, plastic, silicon,
electricity, and 0's and 1's.
My wife has an endearing nickname for me..."machine-head"...that she uses when she
thinks I am being too analytical outside of my work. ;-)
Seriously though, I enjoy my work. You won't know if it's your cup of tea until
you try it yourself.
Regards,
...Gary
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2381 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2382 --------------
001 - "George Aspbury" (aspbury - RE: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
002 - Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodW - Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
003 - Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodW - Re: Ten Reasons to Say No to Waldorf
004 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Programming and clairvoyance (Re: Lesser violence at waldorf s
005 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
006 - paul c (ptc712 yahoo.com) - RE: Lesser violence at waldorf schools/programming computers
007 - "George Aspbury" (aspbury - RE: Lesser violence at waldorf schools/programming computers
008 - paul c (ptc712 yahoo.com) - RE: Lesser violence at waldorf schools/programming computers
009 - "George Aspbury" (aspbury - Waldorf Kindergarten was lesser violence etc..
010 - Rose Alford (roseal telep - RE: Lesser violence at waldorf schools/programming computers
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2382.1 ---------------
From: "George Aspbury" (aspbury1 worldnet.att.net)
Subject: RE: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 13:01:56 -0500
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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In-Reply-To: (200006141745.KAA22490 lists1.best.com)
[gary]
) Programming computers and working with SQL
) databases requires a very literal,
) patient, focused mind...no magical thinking or
) day-dreaming allowed, and I'm
) afraid that your clairvoyance skills are of no
) use, since computers at their
) essence are a pile (albeit carefully designed) of
) metal, plastic, silicon,
) electricity, and 0's and 1's.
)
Is Sune clairvoyant?
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2382.2 ---------------
From: Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodWinter.com)
Subject: Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 14:18:32 -0400
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George Aspbury wrote:
) Is Sune clairvoyant?
Dunno...I assumed so, since I heard that he is a 2nd generation
Anthro...does this mean that he is further evolved, reaching the higher
plane?
Sune? Do you hear us now, without connecting to the machine? Come in,
Sune...
...Gary
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2382.3 ---------------
From: Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodWinter.com)
Subject: Re: Ten Reasons to Say No to Waldorf
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 14:28:31 -0400
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BarbaraWB aol.com wrote:
) Are there translation sites or does one have to buy software? This is just
) the kind of thing I need for my upcoming oeuvre - my collective unconscious
) (sorry Jung) cannot remember how to read/speak/write Swedish.
I've recently discovered the following free translation service...
http://babelfish.altavista.com/translate.dyn
Courtesy of AltaVista.com. You can paste text into a box for translation, or
provide a web page address for translation of that page.
Tranlation is available for German, French, Russian, Spanish, Italian,
Portuguese...but alas, no Swedish...
Anybody know of a Swedish/English translation site (free)?
...Gary
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2382.4 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Programming and clairvoyance (Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:42:36 +0200
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References: (200006140055.RAA11080 lists1.best.com) (200006140921.CAA10610 lists1.best.com) (200006141309.GAA04463 lists1.best.com) (200006141353.GAA17379 lists1.best.com) (200006141425.HAA26991 lists1.best.com) (200006141745.KAA22490 lists1.best.com)
Gary Bonhiver wrote:
) Programming computers and working with SQL databases requires a very literal,
) patient, focused mind...no magical thinking or day-dreaming allowed, and I'm
) afraid that your clairvoyance skills are of no use, since computers at their
) essence are a pile (albeit carefully designed) of metal, plastic, silicon,
) electricity, and 0's and 1's.
)
) My wife has an endearing nickname for me..."machine-head"...that she uses when she
) thinks I am being too analytical outside of my work. ;-)
)
) Seriously though, I enjoy my work. You won't know if it's your cup of tea until
) you try it yourself.
Well, some years ago I retrained as a computer network administrator and
support technician and certified as a CNA and MCP on my first try with
613/800 points (with 504 as passing score) for CNA and 882/1000 (with 705
as passing score) for the MCP, one of the best in that specific group
group, even if that does not necessarily say much. I also before that
started to build a computerized case record system for the
(anthroposophical) Vidar Clinic, which was not possible to finish for among
other reasons lack of funding and after the retraining worked in the
profession at a (software, mostly C++) computer company last year
(time-limited employment).
But programming from morning til evening, 5 days a week, for the rest of
your life ... Just thought I'd ask in passing the off-topic question about
your SQL-work, as you brought up the personal theme.
) Is Sune clairvoyant?
Not very. Haven't felt a direct need for it as such yet. Rather satisfied
with my normal sense perceptions. There is a time for everything.
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2382.5 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:02:10 +0200
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References: (200006141805.LAA03368 lists1.best.com) (200006141818.LAA10617 lists1.best.com)
Gary Bonhiver wrote:
) George Aspbury wrote:
) ) Is Sune clairvoyant?
)
) Dunno... I assumed so,
Sat, 03 Jun 2000 00:04:14 +0200, just 12 days ago, in an answer to your
post on Fri, 02 Jun 2000 12:41:56 -0400, I wrote that I wasn't.
) since I heard that he is a 2nd generation
) Anthro...
Interesting!! Who told you? Someone who seems to know more about my life
than me. Lead me to him/her! I'll buy you a Coke!
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2382.6 ---------------
From: paul c (ptc712 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Lesser violence at waldorf schools/programming computers
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:17:17 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I've found it interesting how many people I know at
the two Waldorf schools I'm involved with whose work
involves programming and related computer work. Some
readily admit that thought processes involved in their
work is vastly different from the thought processes of
the teachers in their children's school. Some chafe at
the curriculum because of that difference, but go
along with the decision--at least for early childhood
education--because their spouses have carried the
brunt of the load of the education decisionmaking.
Other tech-minded folks realize that the work world of
the adult is and should be different from the
kindergarten world of their children.
Personally, I see great value in a classroom that
reinforces imaginative play for as long as possible
for children--the modern work world requires
imaginative thinkers; IMHO it's much easier to teach
the practical skills of accounting or programming or
anatomy or whatever than it is to teach older children
to tap into their imaginations if they haven't had
much opportunity to do that when they were three- and
four- and five- and six-years-old.
Paul
George Aspbury (aspbury1 worldnet.att.net) wrote:
) [gary]
) ) Programming computers and working with SQL
) ) databases requires a very literal,
) ) patient, focused mind...no magical thinking or
) ) day-dreaming allowed, and I'm
) ) afraid that your clairvoyance skills are of no
) ) use, since computers at their
) ) essence are a pile (albeit carefully designed) of
) ) metal, plastic, silicon,
) ) electricity, and 0's and 1's.
) )
)
) Is Sune clairvoyant?
)
)
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!
http://photos.yahoo.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2382.7 ---------------
From: "George Aspbury" (aspbury1 worldnet.att.net)
Subject: RE: Lesser violence at waldorf schools/programming computers
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 14:39:36 -0500
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[Paul]
) Personally, I see great value in a classroom that
) reinforces imaginative play for as long as possible
) for children--the modern work world requires
) imaginative thinkers; IMHO it's much easier to teach
) the practical skills of accounting or programming or
) anatomy or whatever than it is to teach older children
) to tap into their imaginations if they haven't had
) much opportunity to do that when they were three- and
) four- and five- and six-years-old.
I agree. In what way dose Waldorf differ from other schools
when it comes to this goal of preserving and enhancing a
Childs creativity? In the sense of child development are
there any parallels between Steiner's model and accepted
current child development models?
George
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2382.8 ---------------
From: paul c (ptc712 yahoo.com)
Subject: RE: Lesser violence at waldorf schools/programming computers
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 13:24:51 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Well, I can only speak anecdotedly, from the
experience of my three children who each spent three
years in a Waldorf kindergarten, compared to what I
know is offered in the local public and parochial
schools.
The Waldorf kindergarten offers the children time,
space and materials to engage in a lot of imaginative
play--both inside and outside--in the context of a
daily, weekly, and seasonal rhythm. They learn songs
and stories, they celebrate each other's birthdays,
they note the changing of the seasons.
They have a large supply of playthings generally made
of natural materials--wood, silk, cotton--both
handcrafted (into play stands, furniture, dolls) and
"as is" (sticks, rocks, flowers, cloths for dress up,
etc.)
As I said above, the work of the kindergarten is tied
into the season of the year, in the stories that the
teachers tell, in the songs they sing, but also with
an acknowledgement that different religions also have
holidays that tie in with particular times of the
year. My youngest daughter's kindergarten this year
heard and learned many stories from Christian, Jewishm
and Native American traditions.
Most other kindergarten and preschools are also
designed to allow the kids lost of free time. There
are significant differences in non-Waldorf classrooms,
which are often the deciding factors which type of
school parents decide to send their children to. You
are likely to see a lot more plastic toys in primary
colors in other classrooms, and toys that are much
more representational. The dress up clothes also are
likely to be much more representational than the
simple clothes in a Waldorf classroom. In my opinion,
there's nothing inherently wrong with a firefighter's
costume or a tutu or a doctor's coat and black
bag--but it limits what the child can pretend to be
when they put them on.
Seasons are noted, I'm sure, in other settings, though
I imagine, especially in the public school setting,
that stories and songs that are closely linked to
specific religions are not used.
Stories in a Waldorf classroom are always told to the
children as opposed to read from a book--the children
fill in the pictures in their imaginations. I don't
know what the public/parochial school equivalent of
the Waldorf kindergarten puppet show presentation is.
I do know that I've never experienced a similar
situation with a group of three to six-year-olds as
they sit quietly but extremely attentively for 20
minutes or longer while the teacher moves the puppets
and tells the story.
The biggest difference between types of kindergartens
has to be the approach to academics--other
kindergartens introduce the children to the alphabet,
writing, reading, maybe basic math, and computers.
None of these are part of what happens in the Waldorf
kindergarten. And again, just based on my own
children's experience, it hasn't harmed them in grade
school. My oldest daughter spent four years in a
Waldorf kindergarten and entered a public school first
grade unable to read and not writing much more than
her name. By Christmas time she was reading beyond her
grade level and writing sort paragraphs. My son taught
himself to read last summer, after finishing Waldorf
kindergarten and before entering a Waldorf first
grade. We didn't push him--he just wanted to read.
Our youngest just finished kindergarten and shows no
interest in reading but draws all the time. We'll see.
What it comes down to is what parents want for their
kids. The lack of academics in the Waldorf
kindergarten is very appealing to some parents, a
turnoff to others; just like the presence of homework
and computers in the kindergarten is appealing to some
parents and a turnoff to others.
Paul
--- George Aspbury (aspbury1 worldnet.att.net) wrote:
) [Paul]
) ) Personally, I see great value in a classroom that
) ) reinforces imaginative play for as long as
) possible
) ) for children--the modern work world requires
) ) imaginative thinkers; IMHO it's much easier to
) teach
) ) the practical skills of accounting or programming
) or
) ) anatomy or whatever than it is to teach older
) children
) ) to tap into their imaginations if they haven't had
) ) much opportunity to do that when they were three-
) and
) ) four- and five- and six-years-old.
)
)
) I agree. In what way dose Waldorf differ from other
) schools
) when it comes to this goal of preserving and
) enhancing a
) Childs creativity? In the sense of child
) development are
) there any parallels between Steiner's model and
) accepted
) current child development models?
)
) George
)
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!
http://photos.yahoo.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2382.9 ---------------
From: "George Aspbury" (aspbury1 worldnet.att.net)
Subject: Waldorf Kindergarten was lesser violence etc..
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 15:53:31 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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In-Reply-To: (200006142025.NAA18498 lists1.best.com)
[paul])
) Well, I can only speak anecdotedly, from the
) experience of my three children who each spent three
) years in a Waldorf kindergarten, compared to what I
) know is offered in the local public and parochial
) schools.
)
) The Waldorf kindergarten offers the children time,
) space and materials to engage in a lot of imaginative
) play--both inside and outside--in the context of a
) daily, weekly, and seasonal rhythm. They learn songs
) and stories, they celebrate each other's birthdays,
) they note the changing of the seasons.
Is seasonal rhythm the same as seasonal changes?
) They have a large supply of playthings generally made
) of natural materials--wood, silk, cotton--both
) handcrafted (into play stands, furniture, dolls) and
) "as is" (sticks, rocks, flowers, cloths for dress up,
) etc.)
)
) As I said above, the work of the kindergarten is tied
) into the season of the year, in the stories that the
) teachers tell, in the songs they sing, but also with
) an acknowledgement that different religions also have
) holidays that tie in with particular times of the
) year. My youngest daughter's kindergarten this year
) heard and learned many stories from Christian, Jewishm
) and Native American traditions.
My youngest child just finished Kindergarten in a public
school and her experience sounds very similar. I think that
her teacher is exceptional. They had local native Americans
come visit the class during the time that they learned about
their culture. I would say that her teacher very much tied
the class to the seasons in that seasonal changes were the
focus for new ideas being brought to the class.
) Most other kindergarten and preschools are also
) designed to allow the kids lost of free time. There
) are significant differences in non-Waldorf classrooms,
) which are often the deciding factors which type of
) school parents decide to send their children to. You
) are likely to see a lot more plastic toys in primary
) colors in other classrooms, and toys that are much
) more representational. The dress up clothes also are
) likely to be much more representational than the
) simple clothes in a Waldorf classroom. In my opinion,
) there's nothing inherently wrong with a firefighter's
) costume or a tutu or a doctor's coat and black
) bag--but it limits what the child can pretend to be
) when they put them on.
)
) Seasons are noted, I'm sure, in other settings, though
) I imagine, especially in the public school setting,
) that stories and songs that are closely linked to
) specific religions are not used.
Her class learned songs in other languages including sign
language. Christianity was the predominate undercurrent in
her class as her teacher is an older Christian woman.
)
) Stories in a Waldorf classroom are always told to the
) children as opposed to read from a book--the children
) fill in the pictures in their imaginations. I don't
) know what the public/parochial school equivalent of
) the Waldorf kindergarten puppet show presentation is.
) I do know that I've never experienced a similar
) situation with a group of three to six-year-olds as
) they sit quietly but extremely attentively for 20
) minutes or longer while the teacher moves the puppets
) and tells the story.
)
Her class had a mix of story telling, with many visitors
coming in to tell stories, and book reading. They usually
drew pictures about the stories they heard. he was free to
choose her medium and to us lines.
) The biggest difference between types of kindergartens
) has to be the approach to academics--other
) kindergartens introduce the children to the alphabet,
) writing, reading, maybe basic math, and computers.
) None of these are part of what happens in the Waldorf
) kindergarten. And again, just based on my own
) children's experience, it hasn't harmed them in grade
) school. My oldest daughter spent four years in a
) Waldorf kindergarten and entered a public school first
) grade unable to read and not writing much more than
) her name. By Christmas time she was reading beyond her
) grade level and writing sort paragraphs. My son taught
) himself to read last summer, after finishing Waldorf
) kindergarten and before entering a Waldorf first
) grade. We didn't push him--he just wanted to read.
)
) Our youngest just finished kindergarten and shows no
) interest in reading but draws all the time. We'll see.
)
) What it comes down to is what parents want for their
) kids. The lack of academics in the Waldorf
) kindergarten is very appealing to some parents, a
) turnoff to others; just like the presence of homework
) and computers in the kindergarten is appealing to some
) parents and a turnoff to others.
That is what it comes down to. The parent makes the decision
as to what type of education their children receive.
Any thoughts on the comparisons between child development
models?
George
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2382.10 ---------------
From: Rose Alford (roseal teleport.com)
Subject: RE: Lesser violence at waldorf schools/programming computers
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 17:14:04 -0700
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In-Reply-To: (200006141944.MAA24730 lists1.best.com)
At 02:39 PM 6/14/00 -0500, you wrote:
)[Paul]
)) Personally, I see great value in a classroom that
)) reinforces imaginative play for as long as possible
)) for children--the modern work world requires
)) imaginative thinkers; IMHO it's much easier to teach
)) the practical skills of accounting or programming or
)) anatomy or whatever than it is to teach older children
)) to tap into their imaginations if they haven't had
)) much opportunity to do that when they were three- and
)) four- and five- and six-years-old.
)
)
)I agree. In what way dose Waldorf differ from other schools
)when it comes to this goal of preserving and enhancing a
)Childs creativity? In the sense of child development are
)there any parallels between Steiner's model and accepted
)current child development models?
That is a good question. I think Waldorf tries to block out a lot of the
outside world so that the children remain in their "inner life." I don't
see how Waldorf explicitly or directly promotes creativity because all I
see are all the kids doing the same thing. They all draw the same
pictures. They are told what to draw and how to do it, so where is the room
for originality and creativity? This is something that confuses me about
WE.
The same is true for their writing as well. They all write the same
things, either through dictation or from the board. Can someone explain how
this promotes individuality and creativity? I know it is all from Steiner,
but I don't get the reasoning.
Thanks
Rose
------------
)George
)
)
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2382 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2383 --------------
001 - Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodW - Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools/programming computers
002 - Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodW - Re: Waldorf Kindergarten was lesser violence etc..
003 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Not Singer support for seductive Lisa on evil and cults ..
004 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Thanks and a thought
005 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Thanks and a thought
006 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: "Dr Treher"
007 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
008 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Ten Reasons to Say No to Waldorf
009 - "David Cann" (canndw netz - Fw: temperments
010 - "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2ga - individual versus group
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2383.1 ---------------
From: Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodWinter.com)
Subject: Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools/programming computers
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:30:11 -0400
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paul c wrote:
) Well, I can only speak anecdotedly, from the
) experience of my three children who each spent three
) years in a Waldorf kindergarten, compared to what I
) know is offered in the local public and parochial
) schools.
GB: Why on earth did they spend 3 years in Kindergarten instead of the
customary 1 year (sometimes 2) in the real world? How old were they
when they were allowed to move on to 1st grade? Who made the decision
that they were ready for 1st grade -- you, or the teacher? 3 years
earns a lot more money for the school than 1...
) My youngest daughter's kindergarten this year
) heard and learned many stories from Christian, Jewishm
) and Native American traditions.
GB: Were tthese stories taught as fact or myth? How do you know?
) Stories in a Waldorf classroom are always told to the
) children as opposed to read from a book--the children
) fill in the pictures in their imaginations.
GB: This is very convenient for the school -- parents can't review
written teaching materials to understand what their children are being
told...they hear about it either from the teacher, who can edit what
s/he tells the parents, or from the children, who are too young to fully
convey the content and undertones to their parents.
) My oldest daughter spent four years in a
) Waldorf kindergarten and entered a public school first
) grade unable to read and not writing much more than
) her name. By Christmas time she was reading beyond her
) grade level and writing sort paragraphs. My son taught
) himself to read last summer, after finishing Waldorf
) kindergarten and before entering a Waldorf first
) grade. We didn't push him--he just wanted to read.
GB: 4 years in kindergarten? Forgive me for being blunt, but after 3
and 4 years in kindergarten, your kids were probably bored to tears in
the Waldorf program, and couldn't wait to jump into reading and writing.
Pause for a moment and imagine how much further they might be if they
HAD been taught to read/write at an earlier age...this is a point that
Waldorfians ignore when claiming how talented their students are.
...Gary
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2383.2 ---------------
From: Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodWinter.com)
Subject: Re: Waldorf Kindergarten was lesser violence etc..
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:28:39 -0400
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George Aspbury wrote:
) That is what it comes down to. The parent makes the decision
) as to what type of education their children receive.
Yes, George, absolutely. I don't think anyone on this list will
disagree with your statement.
The one caveat, and it's a biggie, is that all schools must convey
_honestly_ and _in detail_ all aspects of the school curriculum,
including its religious/philosophical underpinnings. There must be full
disclosure _up front_, so that the parents have the information they
need to decide whether the school is right for them. And once a choice
is made, parents need to be given the right to visit the school anytime,
unannounced, and observe the class in action, something that many
schools are unwilling to do under the guise that it will "disrupt the
class."
Waldorf schools will discover that if they put _all_ the cards on the
table up front, without reservation, they will find a group of parents
who subscribe to their belief system, though likely not as many as they
grab through deceipt. Isn't this preferable to generating a lot of
angry parents who later discover facts that are disturbing to them and
yank their kids out of the school, after they have committed funds and
subjected their children to a program that they find hard to stomach?
Schools should not only make lots of detailed information available to
prospective parents up front, but they should _insist_ that the parents
fully understand the information and its implications. Describe the
teacher training program, and explain why Anthroposophy is central to
"the Waldorf Method." Provide a reading list and web addresses
(including PLANS, because they WILL eventually find it), and insist that
the prospective parents take a month to research Waldorf before making a
committment. Imagine having fully committed, harmonious parents
supporting your school, without the anger, disenchantment, bad
publicity, bad Karma. Isn't that what Anthros really want? Eugene
Schwartz was right in this regard, and he had the balls to say it.
The truth WILL come out eventually -- it always does. I think the
problem is that Anthroposophers have a different definition of _truth_
than the rest of the world, AND that they view ignorant parents and
their children as prime candidates for conversion to Anthroposophy,
giving local schools brownie points with the Mother Ship.
...Gary
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2383.3 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Not Singer support for seductive Lisa on evil and cults ...
.-)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 16:17:33 -0700
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In-Reply-To: (200006100108.SAA16158 lists1.best.com)
Sune, you quoted Margaret Singer's definition of cult,
)What she in short terms describes as the central characteristic of cults is
)that "It denotes a group that forms around a person who claims he or she
)has a special mission or knowledge, which will be shared with those who
)turn over most of their decision making to that self-appointed leader."
)
)Anthroposophy with its origin in a strong and to many very convincing and
)overwhelming individual constantly faces the danger of developing into a
)cult. Relating to Steiner in the way members of cults normally do is
)probably/clearly the way a number of persons interested in/working with
)anthroposophy do.
I think it's just the opposite; Anthroposophy is a cult that's
turning into a religion, the natural evolution, but it's young, so
it's still mostly cult-like despite the absence of the leader.
You then enumerate prominent Europeans who patronize Waldorf; the
implication being that they wouldn't patronize a cult. Knowing, as we
do, how Waldorf parents are deceived about Anthroposophy, this
doesn't surprise me at all. And then there are the prominent
Americans who support Scientology...
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2383.4 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Thanks and a thought
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 16:06:12 -0700
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References: (200006122039.NAA18693 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200006122039.NAA18693 lists1.best.com)
Chris Brostrup-Jensen, you wrote,
)I found this list and one devoted to Waldorf proponents (I think
)you all call it the "St. John's" list), so I subscribed to both. This
)one has been a tad more . . . exciting than the other. ;-) Despite
)the outbursts of mudslinging, this list has been very helpful to me
)in putting the brakes on my initial enthusiasm for Waldorf and raising
)questions I did not know needed to be raised about a school, like
)"How many selves do you think my son has?" and "Do your
)teachers subscribe to any fantastical and racist beliefs about the
)evolution of human beings?"
You're not likely to get a straight answer if you put it that way!
(snip)
)I would like to offer an observation in the spirit of
)constructive criticism. I've only been on the list for three weeks
)and I have not participated personally at all, yet I already feel
)fatigued and somewhat alienated by the level of personal conflict
)here. People have strong feelings about the issues raised on the list;
)that is clear. It is not so clear (to me at least) that anyone's best
)interests are served by allowing those strong feelings to become
)personal animosities.
)
)One thought I have had, watching the fur fly, is that in some ways
)this list is really two lists. One list (perhaps the original intent?) is
)a place for people who have concerns about Waldorf or who feel
)like they (or their children) have been harmed by Waldorf to come
)together, share their anger and experiences, and strategize with
)like-minded souls about what they can do about the situation. Not
)exactly the "Bash-Waldorf" list Sune suggested at one point, but
)something reasonably close, a fraternity of Waldorf skeptics.
)
)The other list, the one I have benefited from, is a forum for
)discussion about the nature of Waldorf education, anthroposophy
)and the relationship between the two. It is a place for a diversity
)of opinions, pro and con, to be discussed and disputed in some
)reasonably civil manner. My impression is that this was not
)particularly Dan's original intent (although I obviously defer to
)him on that point), but may have evolved gradually as some
)"SWA DoFs" (if I may show off my newly-expanded acronymic
)vocabulary just a bit :-) joined the list over time.
)
)Folks like Felix want and *need* something like List 1. If I felt
)that my kids had been harmed, as he and Michael and others here
)clearly do, I'd be furious too, and in no mood to play nice. I'd want
)a place where I could go and feel supported, not to mention plot
)my eventual revenge. Likewise, I recognize that I'm not the only
)one here seeking to learn more and appreciating the opportunity
)to see ideas and opinions debated openly, thoughtfully and with
)some mutual respect. So I thought I'd just toss out the idea that
)the interests of both peace and effective communication might
)best be served by creating two separate lists with different
)missions.
This is a really good idea, Chris, and we've been kicking it around.
Debra is willing to moderate a "skeptical waldorf parents only" list;
perhaps some other people will volunteer to be a committee to help
with it. The committee could do some "vision work" (G) over how it
should be named and described. We'd have descriptions of both lists
on the web site and people could choose one or both.
What do people think?
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2383.5 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Thanks and a thought
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 17:17:32 -0700
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(200006122241.PAA03588 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200006122241.PAA03588 lists1.best.com)
Chris wrote,
) ) raising
) ) questions I did not know needed to be raised about a school, like
) ) "How many selves do you think my son has?" and "Do your
) ) teachers subscribe to any fantastical and racist beliefs about the
) ) evolution of human beings?"
And Sune Nordwall commented,
)During the times I worked at waldorf schools, I never once met a parent or
)teacher considering or discussing the questions you mention. They probably
)stand out as just as esoteric and strange to the great majority of all
)waldorf teachers as they do to you and play the corresponding degree of
)role in their work.
Ah, those were the good old days, before the internet, before parents
had so many more ways of finding out what was being hidden from them.
Then Sune resurrects Todd Oppenheimer's September 1999 Atlantic
Monthly Article:
)In early 1998 Dan Dugan, a disenchanted Waldorf parent in San Francisco,
)sued the Sacramento school district and another nearby for introducing the
)Waldorf philosophy in two public schools in the mid-1990s.
One reporter who couldn't get his facts straight, even though he
interviewed me. I've certainly worked hard on it, but I'm not suing
anybody. It's PLANS, Inc. that's suing the schools.
)Dugan argued
)that the movement has a secret agenda that violates the Constitution's
)First and Fourteenth Amendments: the indoctrination of children into
)Waldorf's "religious doctrines of anthroposophy."
We've never said anything about the 14th Amendment; what does that
have to do with it?
Later, Oppenheimer wrote:
)Waldorf teachers counter that they don't formally teach anthroposophy. This
)is true; in fact, their own rules prohibit them from doing so.
He swallowed the propaganda, hook, line and sinker. I expect his
research was asking a couple of Waldorf teachers.
)They do
)study it, however -- most intensively at the Steiner College, where
)virtually every class text was written by Steiner or another
)anthroposophist. (The Steiner College does expect student teachers to come
)to it with standard bachelor's degrees.)
Though it isn't required...
)Waldorf teachers say they hide anthroposophy not because they see anything
)evil or dangerous in it but because they don't want to push their
)philosophy onto the students.
They don't discard it as old-fashioned and fantastic, they don't
update it with everything that's been learned about child development
since 1919, they -hide- it, which means it's still there, just hardly
ever stated -explicitly-.
)The purpose of the teachers' anthroposophical
)studies is to enliven their own sensibility and deepen their understanding
)of evolution. Only then, according to Waldorf theory, can they inspire
)students with the wonder and curiosity that make for profound learning.
)Steiner himself encouraged this distinction.
Whoops, hooked by a deceptive re-definition of a common term,
doubletalk, for short. Oppenheimer doesn't know that "evolution"
means the evolution of consciousness through seven sub-races of seven
root-races.
After lengthy quotations from Oppenheimer, Sune concludes (to Chris):
)Else, it really was relief reading something from a normal person as you on
)this list for once!
From his high throne of Anthroposophy, Sune insults his fellow
correspondents. Trying to curry favor with a possible new recruit,
Sune?
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2383.6 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: "Dr Treher"
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 16:31:38 -0700
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In-Reply-To: (200006121905.MAA28259 lists1.best.com)
Sune Nordwall, commenting on my quoting Webb's description of
Treher's psychological analysis of schizophrenia, comparing Steiner
and Hitler, said:
)Immediately reminded me of your description Wed, 10 May 2000 20:54:53 -0700
)of a Dr Gorter.
)
)Searching the net for info on him, it turned out he - after having
)practiced as an anthroposophical MD for 20 years- in 1998 worked as
)associate clinical professor at the University of California San Francisco
)Medical Center (Department of Family and Community Medicine), and also as
)medical director of the European Institute for Oncological and
)Immunological Research" and recently having published "PhaseI/II trial to
)document immunomodulatory, cytotoxic and potentially anti-HIV properties of
)Iscador" in Journal of the American Medical Association (1995;12:3-5).
)
)Your description of this was "I don't want him practicing medicine. Thanks
)to his Anthroposophical re-training, he's given up science." Great "truth
)in advertising" by the moderator of this list and secretary of PLANS ...
I have attended several lectures by Dr. Gorter. I have met him
personally, though not in the best of circumstances, as I interviewed
him just before picketing a clinic he tried to open on Castro St. in
San Francisco (it didn't last). I recently got an eyewitness report
from his Anthroposophical Medicine course at San Francisco State
College. I stand by my assertion that he has given up science,
despite his prestigious appointments.
What's happened in his legal action over the dissolution of his
research institute last year?
Then you were able to find some fragmentary mentions of Treher:
)The second is http://www.groene.nl/1996/09/rz_stein.html
)
)(40% down the page):
)Studies like the one by ... Wolfgang Treher ... were written from the
)perspective of class struggle.
)
)Then in an approximate translation:
)"Treher in his 1966 published study compared Steiner and Hitler. Treher:
)'Rudolf Steiner and Adolf Hitler, both coming from Austrian forrest
)regions, were not only of the same nationality, but also very much
)resembled each other as individuals. They both after a pre-stage
)experienced a comet-like career. They even seemed to dress alike. During
)the incubation phase of both, enthusiastic, partly older women played a
)decisive role as protective, inspiring forces. Both were vegetarians and
)beleden (insulted?) this vegetarianism as a philosophy when they started to
)make it their mission to preach it. Neither Hitler nor Steiner have a
)deterrently large production, that in itself makes you suspect them of
)being psychotic. They viewed themselves as universal geniuses of humanity
)of an unimaginable size."
)
)The third page is http://carpe.com/ligatur/lio_rlm_37.html also comments on
)Rowohlt Literaturmagazin 37: Pop Technik Poesie - Die n‰chste Generation:
)
)"The book ends with an authentic and rather amusing correspondence between
)Ulrich Holbein and a certain Wolfgang Treher, psychiatrist and neurologist
)on anthroposophy, that generally escalates to a verbal exchange of blows
)and procures the reader with the interesting insight, that even the
)cultivated academic for the sake of reaching the intended insult willingly
)fishes out of the manyfacetted treasury of German words referring to the
)fecal area."
Sounds like what happens here!
)Good source, Dan.
I've been looking for Treher's book for years, but it was a small
edition and is very rare, never translated. It's of interest, of
course, because there's so little critical literature about Steiner
and Anthroposophy. Ahern's "Sun at Midnight," a psychological
evaluation of Anthroposophists, is out of print but I was able to get
one through a search.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2383.7 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 18:41:18 -0700
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Sune, you wrote,
)All sort of questions by different people are left unanswered on this and
)other lists. I asked Dan Dugan on another, anthroposophical list on 6 June
)if he intended to ask the posters there for permission first, before
)quoting them in the book he has planned to write. He has not answered that
)yet.
I probably haven't been back there. I'm barely able to keep up with
waldorf-critics. The answer is no. Publicly accessable mailing lists
are publications. Their contents are copyrighted by default by the
authors of the posts, but they can be quoted under the fair use
doctrine.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2383.8 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Ten Reasons to Say No to Waldorf
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 18:44:24 -0700
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In-Reply-To: (200006141055.DAA26463 lists1.best.com)
Barbara, you asked,
)Are there translation sites or does one have to buy software? This is just
)the kind of thing I need for my upcoming oeuvre - my collective unconscious
)(sorry Jung) cannot remember how to read/speak/write Swedish.
It's frustrating, but I'd rather that people at least knew about
foreign language sites even though we don't have the resources to
provide translations. Sometimes a volunteer will pop up.
Machine translation is hardly worth the time, it's so bad. Babelfish
was translating (from German) Waldorf as "whale village," and
Anthroposophists as "sparkling wines." Fun to read.
-Dan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2383.9 ---------------
From: "David Cann" (canndw netzero.net)
Subject: Fw: temperments
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 22:23:56 -0400
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Maybe Lisa, who finds temperaments as used by Waldorf educators "archaic"
and "useless", could tell me what exactly she dislikes about them and their
use. As Harve and I pointed out a few months ago, people (including
children) are not all the same. Whether you relate the differences in terms
of "multiple intelligences", Myers-Briggs personality types, or temperament
type, the purpose and effect is the same.
David
-----Original Message-----
From: David Cann (cann brainiac.com)
To: waldorf-critics-errors lists.best.com
(waldorf-critics-errors lists.best.com)
Date: Friday, January 14, 2000 12:15 AM
Subject: temperments
)Debra Harvey posted:
)---------------------------------------
)There is also a lot of belittling of temperament types on this list. It is
)my understanding that this is a tool used to look at the child
individually.
) How can this be bad, as long as it is not used to pigeon-hole children?
)When I first learned of Myers-Briggs personality typography years ago, it
)helped me understand why I worked more easily with certain people and it
)allowed me to understand those that were different from me. How can this
be
)negative? In fact, I think it explains why our religious experiences may
)come to us in different ways. Some have very literal requirements, others
)may find it in the mystery of faith.
)---------------------------------------
)
)David:
)I, too, would like to see this particular point addressed. While
discussion
)of the temperments tends to include stereotypical physical descriptions
)(phlegmatics as overweight, for instance), I have seen no evidence of
)anything esoteric, stereotyped, or sinister in their use by Waldorf
)teachers.
)
)Like Debra, I gained a great deal of insight in my professional life when I
)learned about Myers-Briggs personality types. Among parents in my school,
)there is frequently a great deal of interest (even among those who could
)care less about Steiner) in the temperments, simply because it's a means
for
)insight into other people. In all the time I've read this list, I have
)never seen any real discussion of the temperments from a "Waldorf critic"
)standpoint.
)
)David
)
_____________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2383.10 ---------------
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: individual versus group
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 23:14:45 -0400
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Rose writes, in a question that many of us who have had children enrolled in
Waldorf also have asked:
((Can someone explain how
this promotes individuality and creativity? I know it is all from Steiner,
but I don't get the reasoning.))
Lisa here:
The answer is, it *doesn't* promote individuality and creativity. I strongly
believe that the Waldorf approach is strongly about the *collective* and the
*group think* -- not individuality. Why else would everyone -- regardless of
individual ability, talents, etc. -- be forced to do the same thing?!
When you said "it is all from Steiner," you said a mouthful! Think about it:
if the teachers all "follow Steiner" (some, I would argue, in lockstep), why
would there be any emphasis on individuality?
Waldorf is NOT about individuality. Have you noticed that the dolls in the
kindergarten (and nursery) have either no faces, or the simplest of faces,
comprised of a stitch for each eye and maybe a stitch for a mouth? Did you
know that in some Waldorf schools (but in no other schools that I know of),
children are taught to draw human figures with NO FACES at all? That is how
my daughter, now 10, drew ALL human beings after being in her Waldorf school
first grade for several months. (In the kindergarten, the teacher never
draws or writes anything.)
But in the grades, the children copy what the teacher draws and writes --
usually exactly -- on the board.)
No faces = no individuality, imo.
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2383 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2384 --------------
001 - "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2ga - Re: temperments
002 - Rose Alford (roseal telep - Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools/programming computers
003 - Rose Alford (roseal telep - Re: individual versus group
004 - Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodW - Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools/programming computers
005 - "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2ga - Re: individual versus group
006 - "Jim Staffnik" (staffnik - Re: temperments, defending
007 - Rechomba cs.com - Re: [for Ray] Occult wet on wet color exercises
008 - Rose Alford (roseal telep - Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools/programming computers
009 - Rose Alford (roseal telep - Re: individual versus group
010 - "Sarina McDonald" (pandor - Lisa?
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2384.1 ---------------
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: temperments
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 23:26:42 -0400
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No, the effect is not the same!!!
Show me an elementary school anywhere (not Waldorf) who has children
take the Myers-Briggs test, and I will listen to your argument more closely.
My sister has been a third grade teacher in a good public
school system for more than 15 years, and she has never categorized a child
by *temperment* (melancholic, phlegmatic, sanguine or choleric) or by who is
extroverted, intuitive, perceptive, feeling (ENFP)/or the other Myers-Briggs
labels. When she learned that my daughters' Waldorf teachers spoke of
children this way (even only among themselves, or to parents) she was
disgusted. Children have their distinct personalities, she pointed out, but
what use at all is there in *categorizing* those personalities (which are
subject to wonderful, lovely, interesting changes and growth, and a variety
of surprising turns in the road, etc.) with a label?
She pointed out that the only purpose of such a label seemed to be
assisting the teacher in knowing how to approach that child via "Steiner
says." (Oh, how those teachers love those Steiner "operating instructions!")
Adding to that negative aspect of *labeling* children is the fact that
the person doing the *labeling* stays with the child for EIGHT YEARS!
Therefore, the label gets to be a permanent one, coloring the lens through
which the child is viewed for his or her whole elementary/middle school
career.
Sounds great to me!
Lisa (a diagnosed ENFP)
----------
)From: "David Cann" (canndw netzero.net)
)To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
)Subject: Fw: temperments
)Date: Wed, Jun 14, 2000, 10:23 PM
)
) Maybe Lisa, who finds temperaments as used by Waldorf educators "archaic"
) and "useless", could tell me what exactly she dislikes about them and their
) use. As Harve and I pointed out a few months ago, people (including
) children) are not all the same. Whether you relate the differences in terms
) of "multiple intelligences", Myers-Briggs personality types, or temperament
) type, the purpose and effect is the same.
)
) David
)
) -----Original Message-----
) From: David Cann (cann brainiac.com)
) To: waldorf-critics-errors lists.best.com
) (waldorf-critics-errors lists.best.com)
) Date: Friday, January 14, 2000 12:15 AM
) Subject: temperments
)
)
))Debra Harvey posted:
))---------------------------------------
))There is also a lot of belittling of temperament types on this list. It is
))my understanding that this is a tool used to look at the child
) individually.
)) How can this be bad, as long as it is not used to pigeon-hole children?
))When I first learned of Myers-Briggs personality typography years ago, it
))helped me understand why I worked more easily with certain people and it
))allowed me to understand those that were different from me. How can this
) be
))negative? In fact, I think it explains why our religious experiences may
))come to us in different ways. Some have very literal requirements, others
))may find it in the mystery of faith.
))---------------------------------------
))
))David:
))I, too, would like to see this particular point addressed. While
) discussion
))of the temperments tends to include stereotypical physical descriptions
))(phlegmatics as overweight, for instance), I have seen no evidence of
))anything esoteric, stereotyped, or sinister in their use by Waldorf
))teachers.
))
))Like Debra, I gained a great deal of insight in my professional life when I
))learned about Myers-Briggs personality types. Among parents in my school,
))there is frequently a great deal of interest (even among those who could
))care less about Steiner) in the temperments, simply because it's a means
) for
))insight into other people. In all the time I've read this list, I have
))never seen any real discussion of the temperments from a "Waldorf critic"
))standpoint.
))
))David
))
)
) _____________________________________________
) NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
) Click here for FREE Internet Access and Email
) http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2384.2 ---------------
From: Rose Alford (roseal teleport.com)
Subject: Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools/programming computers
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:03:55 -0700
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References: (200006142025.NAA18498 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200006150031.RAA17150 lists1.best.com)
)
)GB: Why on earth did they spend 3 years in Kindergarten instead of the
)customary 1 year (sometimes 2) in the real world? How old were they
)when they were allowed to move on to 1st grade? Who made the decision
)that they were ready for 1st grade -- you, or the teacher? 3 years
)earns a lot more money for the school than 1...
Kindegarten starts at about 3.5, so theoretically, a kid might be stay
there until he or she is almost 7 before they go into first grade depending
on if they turn 6 early enough (before the June of their last year in K at
Portland Waldorf School). The average is probably about 3 years in the K
for most kids, and they also have a toddler program at Portland W.
--Rose
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2384.3 ---------------
From: Rose Alford (roseal teleport.com)
Subject: Re: individual versus group
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:11:00 -0700
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In-Reply-To: (200006150325.UAA24560 lists1.best.com)
At 11:14 PM 6/14/00 -0400, you wrote:
)Rose writes, in a question that many of us who have had children enrolled in
)Waldorf also have asked:
)
)((Can someone explain how
)this promotes individuality and creativity? I know it is all from Steiner,
)but I don't get the reasoning.))
)
)Lisa here:
)
)The answer is, it *doesn't* promote individuality and creativity. I strongly
)believe that the Waldorf approach is strongly about the *collective* and the
)*group think* -- not individuality. Why else would everyone -- regardless of
)individual ability, talents, etc. -- be forced to do the same thing?!
I had that feeling, but the irony is is that if people have a kid that is
interested in the arts, they think W is the place to send them to enhance
their creativity. That is the general belief out there, if you have an
"artsy fartsy" type kid, they will do great at W.
--Rose
)
)When you said "it is all from Steiner," you said a mouthful! Think about it:
)if the teachers all "follow Steiner" (some, I would argue, in lockstep), why
)would there be any emphasis on individuality?
)
)Waldorf is NOT about individuality. Have you noticed that the dolls in the
)kindergarten (and nursery) have either no faces, or the simplest of faces,
)comprised of a stitch for each eye and maybe a stitch for a mouth? Did you
)know that in some Waldorf schools (but in no other schools that I know of),
)children are taught to draw human figures with NO FACES at all? That is how
)my daughter, now 10, drew ALL human beings after being in her Waldorf school
)first grade for several months. (In the kindergarten, the teacher never
)draws or writes anything.)
)
) But in the grades, the children copy what the teacher draws and writes --
)usually exactly -- on the board.)
)
)No faces = no individuality, imo.
)
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2384.4 ---------------
From: Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodWinter.com)
Subject: Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools/programming computers
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 00:29:49 -0400
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References: (200006142025.NAA18498 lists1.best.com) (200006150401.VAA13612 lists1.best.com)
Rose Alford wrote:
) )
) )GB: Why on earth did they spend 3 years in Kindergarten instead of the
) )customary 1 year (sometimes 2) in the real world? How old were they
) )when they were allowed to move on to 1st grade? Who made the decision
) )that they were ready for 1st grade -- you, or the teacher? 3 years
) )earns a lot more money for the school than 1...
)
) Kindegarten starts at about 3.5, so theoretically, a kid might be stay
) there until he or she is almost 7 before they go into first grade depending
) on if they turn 6 early enough (before the June of their last year in K at
) Portland Waldorf School). The average is probably about 3 years in the K
) for most kids, and they also have a toddler program at Portland W.
)
) --Rose
Thank you for the clarification, Rose. Apparently my misunderstanding of the
Waldorf definition of Kindergarten.
I have always had the understanding that kids (optionally) attend _Nursery
School_ or _pre-K_until about age 5/6, then attend Kindergarten for a year
before proceeding to 1st grade. There appears to be a recent trend of super
achieving parents intentionally "holding back" their kids in Kindergarten one
more year, or starting them a year later, so that as they proceed through the
grades, they are 1 year older (more mature) than the other kids, and will thus
excel as compared to classmates. Is this occurring in Waldorf, too?
...Gary
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2384.5 ---------------
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: individual versus group
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 00:26:13 -0400
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Well, my older daughter is very *artsy* and her joy in drawing, painting,
etc. was absolutely deadened by the 4th grade, from the endless copying,
copying, copying. Her mainlesson books are filled with drawings that look so
impressive to parents at Open Houses and who do not know that they are based
-- in color, content and form, exactly -- on what the teacher drew in
colored chalk on the board. Olivia said that they had to do it *exactly* as
the teacher did it -- including the little artistic borders around the edges
of the pages, etc.
After 6 years (in Grade 4), doing the wet on wet watercolors ("Now, red is
coming out to play! And yellow, he is shy ....") was like eating plain
mashed potatoes at every meal: bland and boring.
When we first came to the Waldorf school, I was enchanted by those formless,
gauzy watercolors lining the hallways. How dreamy. How ethereal. By the end,
I was shocked with sensuous delight upon visiting another,
non-Anthroposophic school where the art was as varied as the students, and
the hallways were lined with paintings from tempera to watercolor to oils;
charcoal and pencil drawings in a variety of styles; papier mache sculptures
painted in vivid, bold poster paints; collages brimming with images not from
the Middle Ages, etc. It was like the scene in the Wizard of Oz where it
changes from black and white to color ....
Artistic, schmartistic! Read Sharon Lombard's "Our Brush With Rudolf
Steiner" available through the PLANS website. Sharon and her husband are
both artists, and the article (published in a freethinkers journal) details
how they moved to their present home to give their artistic daughter a
progressive, arts-based education. Guess what they got instead? Well, read
it for yourself....)
-- Lisa
----------
)From: Rose Alford (roseal teleport.com)
)To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
)Subject: Re: individual versus group
)Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2000, 12:11 AM
)
) At 11:14 PM 6/14/00 -0400, you wrote:
))Rose writes, in a question that many of us who have had children enrolled in
))Waldorf also have asked:
))
))((Can someone explain how
))this promotes individuality and creativity? I know it is all from Steiner,
))but I don't get the reasoning.))
))
))Lisa here:
))
))The answer is, it *doesn't* promote individuality and creativity. I strongly
))believe that the Waldorf approach is strongly about the *collective* and the
))*group think* -- not individuality. Why else would everyone -- regardless of
))individual ability, talents, etc. -- be forced to do the same thing?!
)
) I had that feeling, but the irony is is that if people have a kid that is
) interested in the arts, they think W is the place to send them to enhance
) their creativity. That is the general belief out there, if you have an
) "artsy fartsy" type kid, they will do great at W.
)
) --Rose
)
)
))
))When you said "it is all from Steiner," you said a mouthful! Think about it:
))if the teachers all "follow Steiner" (some, I would argue, in lockstep), why
))would there be any emphasis on individuality?
))
))Waldorf is NOT about individuality. Have you noticed that the dolls in the
))kindergarten (and nursery) have either no faces, or the simplest of faces,
))comprised of a stitch for each eye and maybe a stitch for a mouth? Did you
))know that in some Waldorf schools (but in no other schools that I know of),
))children are taught to draw human figures with NO FACES at all? That is how
))my daughter, now 10, drew ALL human beings after being in her Waldorf school
))first grade for several months. (In the kindergarten, the teacher never
))draws or writes anything.)
))
)) But in the grades, the children copy what the teacher draws and writes --
))usually exactly -- on the board.)
))
))No faces = no individuality, imo.
))
))
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2384.6 ---------------
From: "Jim Staffnik" (staffnik cybertrails.com)
Subject: Re: temperments, defending
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:40:59 -0700
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----------
) From: David Cann (canndw netzero.net)
) To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
) Subject: Fw: temperments
) Date: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 7:23 PM
)
) Maybe Lisa, who finds temperaments as used by Waldorf educators "archaic"
) and "useless", could tell me what exactly she dislikes about them and
their
) use.
I am not Lisa but I can refer you to a special issue of School Psychology
Review from Spring 1998 or Spring 1999 dedicated to more recent thinking on
temperament and its educational implications. There is no mention of
Steiner or "the four temperaments."
As Harve and I pointed out a few months ago, people (including
) children) are not all the same.
This is true but the four temperaments reduces individuality to four types.
Easy to manage, simple to apply, but it does not take into account all
variation and does not explain. Also I think the predictive validity of
the four temperaments needs to be put to the test. Although temperament is
actively studied, and the four temperaments seems to be a personality
theory, I think temperament is considered a component of personality
development. I think it is studied as it relates to later personality
development. I do not think that temperament and personality are terms
that are interchanged. I think that trait theories of personality have been
more extensively studied and validated but I could be wrong.
Whether you relate the differences in terms
) of "multiple intelligences", Myers-Briggs personality types, or
temperament
) type, the purpose and effect is the same.
How is the purpose of explaining individual differences in terms of
"multiple intelligences" the same in its effect as temperament type, or
Myers Briggs? I thought the different perspectives addressed different
facets of children like learning style vs social interaction vs leadership
style. I think too that each perspective was developed with a different
end or application in mind like teaching methods vs hiring practices vs
team building. Misapplication of one perspective in an area for which it
is not intended is not only unethical but can lead to some pretty sorry
outcomes.
Take care,
Jim
)
) David
)
) -----Original Message-----
) From: David Cann (cann brainiac.com)
) To: waldorf-critics-errors lists.best.com
) (waldorf-critics-errors lists.best.com)
) Date: Friday, January 14, 2000 12:15 AM
) Subject: temperments
)
)
) )Debra Harvey posted:
) )---------------------------------------
) )There is also a lot of belittling of temperament types on this list. It
is
) )my understanding that this is a tool used to look at the child
) individually.
) ) How can this be bad, as long as it is not used to pigeon-hole
children?
) )When I first learned of Myers-Briggs personality typography years ago,
it
) )helped me understand why I worked more easily with certain people and it
) )allowed me to understand those that were different from me. How can
this
) be
) )negative? In fact, I think it explains why our religious experiences
may
) )come to us in different ways. Some have very literal requirements,
others
) )may find it in the mystery of faith.
) )---------------------------------------
) )
) )David:
) )I, too, would like to see this particular point addressed. While
) discussion
) )of the temperments tends to include stereotypical physical descriptions
) )(phlegmatics as overweight, for instance), I have seen no evidence of
) )anything esoteric, stereotyped, or sinister in their use by Waldorf
) )teachers.
) )
) )Like Debra, I gained a great deal of insight in my professional life
when I
) )learned about Myers-Briggs personality types. Among parents in my
school,
) )there is frequently a great deal of interest (even among those who could
) )care less about Steiner) in the temperments, simply because it's a means
) for
) )insight into other people. In all the time I've read this list, I have
) )never seen any real discussion of the temperments from a "Waldorf
critic"
) )standpoint.
) )
) )David
) )
)
) _____________________________________________
) NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
) Click here for FREE Internet Access and Email
) http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2384.7 ---------------
From: Rechomba cs.com
Subject: Re: [for Ray] Occult wet on wet color exercises
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 00:53:35 EDT
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Debra,
Wow. How could I have not noticed the symbolic depths of my children's use
of color in their art work?! You know alot of it makes sense. I always
thought that the blue and red of the madonna had to do with the colors of
royalty in that they were very exspensive to make; but the blue of cold
distance and the close warmth of red in balance is pure poetry. The notion of
green as an earth color (obvious) as physically grounding, yellow to denote
astral ( the color of the sun, light...how many portrayals of angels are
there with this color) and red for purified essence are associations readily
understandable even for one as ignorant as I.
A couple of questions: When the author speaks of red as the form of pure
man from the beginning, is that refering to the Spirit of man, in the
beginning, prior to the very first physical incarnation in history in the
Steiner scheme of things? If so, doesn't the use of red to symbolize purity
seem a bit arbitrary and adventatous since blood, being material,
has nothing whatsoever to due with pure, nonincarnate Spirit? Or am I just
blowing up my ass with a straw? Did Steiner pick up the pentagram from
Aristotle's 4 elements + spirit?
While I was on the stjohn's list, the issue of brown and black crayons
being frowned upon and not present in a number of waldorf schools came up.
The anthroposophic explanation was that these colors grounded children
unnecessarily and quikened the incarnation process prematurely.Would you or,
god forbid, an ANTHROPOSOPHIST care to elaborate?
Thankyou very much for throwing me this tidbit. Ray
PS: wouldn't ya know it, green is my color...
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2384.8 ---------------
From: Rose Alford (roseal teleport.com)
Subject: Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools/programming computers
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 21:59:58 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
References: (200006142025.NAA18498 lists1.best.com)
(200006150401.VAA13612 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200006150429.VAA27469 lists1.best.com)
No, Waldorf is very strict about keeping children with the same
chronological aged peers as per Steiner's child development theory is very
age dependent. Under Steiner's theory the child has to be introduced
certain concepts at the "proper age" because if they are not, who knows
what will happen to their astral bodies (this is the part that I am
totally ignorant of here, the different components of the human that is
part of the anthro stuff and I am being a little sarcastic.)
However, In Oregon, for a child to enter first grade, the child would need
to be 6 by September 1 of that school year, for Portland Waldorf school
they push the cutoff forward to the previous June 1 instead (three months
earlier). I am not sure if they are strict about this, as some kids with
birthdays after June 1 were still 9 years old in my daughter's fourth
grade. On the other hand, my son who has autism was born Sept 10, and he
will be 7, so he is eligible for first grade (obviously not a W) the next
school year, this year he was still in Kindergarten. He would be one of
the more "mature" children if he were neurologically typical, but
unfortunately, he needs all the time he can get as he is still functioning
on a three year old level (if that much) socially, although academically,
he is on track (sigh).
Many parents (especially of boys) who have summer birthdays decide to keep
them back for the year. My friend (non-Waldorf) for example kept her
August child back in Kindergarten even though he was six and eligible for
first grade. This is common because boys do tend to develop a little
slower than girls although they catch up in the later years according to
the general popular theories out there.
I personally see nothing wrong in postponing entry into first grade
especially for special needs children. Also, you get to keep your kids for
almost an extra year before they go off to college or wherever they go (or
don't) after they turn 18. On the other hand, I am sure some parents want
to hurry the process as much as possible and prefer not to keep children
back if they don't have to.
I was an October baby and so in NY the cutoff was the December of the
school year and I got to enter first grade when I just finishing off my
fifth year. I turned six in first grade and I did fine. I learned how to
read at six and I don't think that I was damaged by it.
--Rose
At 12:29 AM 6/15/00 -0400, you wrote:
)Rose Alford wrote:
)
)) )
)) )GB: Why on earth did they spend 3 years in Kindergarten instead of the
)) )customary 1 year (sometimes 2) in the real world? How old were they
)) )when they were allowed to move on to 1st grade? Who made the decision
)) )that they were ready for 1st grade -- you, or the teacher? 3 years
)) )earns a lot more money for the school than 1...
))
)) Kindegarten starts at about 3.5, so theoretically, a kid might be stay
)) there until he or she is almost 7 before they go into first grade depending
)) on if they turn 6 early enough (before the June of their last year in K at
)) Portland Waldorf School). The average is probably about 3 years in the K
)) for most kids, and they also have a toddler program at Portland W.
))
)) --Rose
)
)Thank you for the clarification, Rose. Apparently my misunderstanding of the
)Waldorf definition of Kindergarten.
)
)I have always had the understanding that kids (optionally) attend _Nursery
)School_ or _pre-K_until about age 5/6, then attend Kindergarten for a year
)before proceeding to 1st grade. There appears to be a recent trend of super
)achieving parents intentionally "holding back" their kids in Kindergarten one
)more year, or starting them a year later, so that as they proceed through the
)grades, they are 1 year older (more mature) than the other kids, and will
thus
)excel as compared to classmates. Is this occurring in Waldorf, too?
)
)...Gary
)
)
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2384.9 ---------------
From: Rose Alford (roseal teleport.com)
Subject: Re: individual versus group
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 22:11:12 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (200006150437.VAA01908 lists1.best.com)
Thanks Lisa, I know what you mean as I have roamed through the halls of
other schools. The point is, W school does devote a lot of time to the
arts compared to most other schools where it is considered peripheral to
the academics. Unfortunately W does not promote creativity, just some sort
of technical adeptness, like building model airplanes, you get better if
you practice enough but you are following the recipe.
I think W could give the kids a little extra space to explore their own
creative instincts. My daughter was able to add some of her own personal
touches to a few of the paintings, but somehow I wish that she had more
chances. Yes the drawings hanging in the hallways of Waldorf are very
enchanting. But after awhile they do get boring, but to the new parents,
they are impressive.
I will go to the website and read the article you suggested.
I have the whole summer to decide where to send my daughter to school next
year. I am going to meet her teacher over the summer and have a discussion
on his plans for grade 5. I would leave her there in W if he decides to be
a bit more flexible in some areas and if the children are not made to do
all those repetitious singing and all the things that made her miserable
this last year. He will probably tell me to take a flying leap in not so
many words I predict. It will be an interesting discussion.
Thanks
--Rose
At 12:26 AM 6/15/00 -0400, you wrote:
)Well, my older daughter is very *artsy* and her joy in drawing, painting,
)etc. was absolutely deadened by the 4th grade, from the endless copying,
)copying, copying. Her mainlesson books are filled with drawings that look so
)impressive to parents at Open Houses and who do not know that they are based
)-- in color, content and form, exactly -- on what the teacher drew in
)colored chalk on the board. Olivia said that they had to do it *exactly* as
)the teacher did it -- including the little artistic borders around the edges
)of the pages, etc.
)
)After 6 years (in Grade 4), doing the wet on wet watercolors ("Now, red is
)coming out to play! And yellow, he is shy ....") was like eating plain
)mashed potatoes at every meal: bland and boring.
)
)When we first came to the Waldorf school, I was enchanted by those formless,
)gauzy watercolors lining the hallways. How dreamy. How ethereal. By the end,
)I was shocked with sensuous delight upon visiting another,
)non-Anthroposophic school where the art was as varied as the students, and
)the hallways were lined with paintings from tempera to watercolor to oils;
)charcoal and pencil drawings in a variety of styles; papier mache sculptures
)painted in vivid, bold poster paints; collages brimming with images not from
)the Middle Ages, etc. It was like the scene in the Wizard of Oz where it
)changes from black and white to color ....
)
)Artistic, schmartistic! Read Sharon Lombard's "Our Brush With Rudolf
)Steiner" available through the PLANS website. Sharon and her husband are
)both artists, and the article (published in a freethinkers journal) details
)how they moved to their present home to give their artistic daughter a
)progressive, arts-based education. Guess what they got instead? Well, read
)it for yourself....)
)
)-- Lisa
)
)----------
))From: Rose Alford (roseal teleport.com)
))To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
))Subject: Re: individual versus group
))Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2000, 12:11 AM
))
)
)) At 11:14 PM 6/14/00 -0400, you wrote:
)))Rose writes, in a question that many of us who have had children
enrolled in
)))Waldorf also have asked:
)))
)))((Can someone explain how
)))this promotes individuality and creativity? I know it is all from Steiner,
)))but I don't get the reasoning.))
)))
)))Lisa here:
)))
)))The answer is, it *doesn't* promote individuality and creativity. I
strongly
)))believe that the Waldorf approach is strongly about the *collective* and
the
)))*group think* -- not individuality. Why else would everyone --
regardless of
)))individual ability, talents, etc. -- be forced to do the same thing?!
))
)) I had that feeling, but the irony is is that if people have a kid that is
)) interested in the arts, they think W is the place to send them to enhance
)) their creativity. That is the general belief out there, if you have an
)) "artsy fartsy" type kid, they will do great at W.
))
)) --Rose
))
))
)))
)))When you said "it is all from Steiner," you said a mouthful! Think about
it:
)))if the teachers all "follow Steiner" (some, I would argue, in lockstep),
why
)))would there be any emphasis on individuality?
)))
)))Waldorf is NOT about individuality. Have you noticed that the dolls in the
)))kindergarten (and nursery) have either no faces, or the simplest of faces,
)))comprised of a stitch for each eye and maybe a stitch for a mouth? Did you
)))know that in some Waldorf schools (but in no other schools that I know of),
)))children are taught to draw human figures with NO FACES at all? That is how
)))my daughter, now 10, drew ALL human beings after being in her Waldorf
school
)))first grade for several months. (In the kindergarten, the teacher never
)))draws or writes anything.)
)))
))) But in the grades, the children copy what the teacher draws and writes --
)))usually exactly -- on the board.)
)))
)))No faces = no individuality, imo.
)))
)))
))
)
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2384.10 ---------------
From: "Sarina McDonald" (pandora aa.net)
Subject: Lisa?
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 22:26:18 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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References: (200006150325.UAA24562 lists1.best.com)
I figure there are so many posts that you missed this question: do your kids
still attend a Waldorf school? I thought so, but you sound like a _former_
parent these days, so I was just curious.
Sarina McDonald
Bainbridge Island, WA
pandora aa.net
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2384 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2385 --------------
001 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools/programming computers
002 - "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2ga - Re: Lisa?
003 - paul c (ptc712 yahoo.com) - Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools/programming computers
004 - Rose Alford (roseal telep - Crayons and Chess question
005 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Ad in New York Times
006 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Thanks and a thought
007 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: numerous quotes/sources
008 - Rechomba cs.com - Re: Thanks and a thought
009 - Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodW - Re: numerous quotes/sources
010 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools/programming computers
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2385.1 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools/programming computers
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 11:54:55 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
)GB: Why on earth did they spend 3 years in Kindergarten instead of the
)customary 1 year (sometimes 2) in the real world?
(later:)
)GB: 4 years in kindergarten? Forgive me for being blunt, but after 3
)and 4 years in kindergarten, your kids were probably bored to tears in
)the Waldorf program, and couldn't wait to jump into reading and writing.
I realize this was cleared up later - but it is actually about more than
terminology. It would be more accurate to say they spend three years, or
more, in "preschool," and there is no "kindergarten" at all in the sense the
term is used in other schools. In other words, the program is the same for a
3-year-old as for a 5-year-old. For some, this may be great, but there is no
doubt there are 5- and 6-year-olds in the Waldorf kindergarten who are bored
to tears, do not need to hear "The Little Red Hen" 17 more times, but need a
challenge, do not get it, and become disruptive.
This is where some of our disillusionment started to seep in - for a 3 year
old, the "mixed age" thing may be beneficial, because there are older
children to emulate. The older ones often are just "doing time."
Diana
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2385.2 ---------------
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: Lisa?
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 10:57:23 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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As you know, my older girl (Olivia, age 10) left the WS in January of this
year, and Juliet (now 6) finished the last of Waldorf kindergarten last
week. Each will be attending a different, non-WS, next year.
Former parents, we officially are!
(And still waiting for our older girl's records ... at five months and
counting......)
----------
)From: "Sarina McDonald" (pandora aa.net)
)To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
)Subject: Lisa?
)Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2000, 1:26 AM
)
) I figure there are so many posts that you missed this question: do your kids
) still attend a Waldorf school? I thought so, but you sound like a _former_
) parent these days, so I was just curious.
)
) Sarina McDonald
) Bainbridge Island, WA
) pandora aa.net
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2385.3 ---------------
From: paul c (ptc712 yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools/programming computers
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 08:49:04 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Gary Bonhiver wrote--"Why on earth did they spend 3
years in Kindergarten instead of the customary 1 year
(sometimes 2) in the real world?"
It's my understanding that by the time many children
enter first grade in American schools, they have
already spent a great deal of time in a combination of
day care settings, preschools, and kindergartens. The
Waldorf early childhood education program combines
elements of all of these types of care/education for
children.
There are two components to most Waldorf early
childhood education programs--one is a Parent-Child
program, geared for kids aged 18 months to three
years. Parent and child meet with other parents and
kids in a school or at someone's home for an hour or
so once or twice a week.
The Waldorf kindergarten is more like a
preschool/kindergarten and is geared for children aged
3 to 6. Many of the kids, especially at younger ages,
only attend two or three days a week, perhaps
adjusting to full-time as they get older.
Gary wrote--"Who made the decision that they were
ready for 1st grade--you, or the teacher?"
The Waldorf grade school assesses a child's readiness
for first grade. They usually consult with the
kindegarten teacher. The public schools in my area
also assess certain children's readiness for first
grade. The big difference is that while a Waldorf
school assesses all children entering first grade,
firsr grade assessment in the public schools is
generally done for younger children, i.e., those whose
birthday's fall after the deadline for entering
kindergarten or first grade. But, ultimately, the
parents have to make the decision."
Gary wrote--"3 years earns a lot more money for the
school than 1."
Yes, I suppose you could assume an economic ulterior
motive would be at play in a school's decision. As it
turns out, my youngest attends kindergarten in one
Waldorf school but will enter first grade in a
different Waldorf school. She is very young, and the
school she is entering actually has suggested that she
would benefit from another year of kindergarten--even
though that grade school would be economically hurt if
she didn't attend. Fortunately, assessments are done
by teachers and not by the Finance
Committee--otherwise the assessment would probably
have turned out differently.
Gary wrote: "Were these stories [from Christian,
Jewish and Native American traditions] taught as fact
or myth? How do you know?
They were told as stories. I've sat in on a few
"circles" when the stories were told.
Gary wrote (regarding stories being told rather than
read): Parents can't review written teaching materials
to understand what their children are being told. They
hear about it either from the teacher, who can edit
what s/he tells the parents, or from the children, who
are too young to fully convey the content and
undertones to their parents."
I edited my daughter's school's newsletter this year,
which came out every two weeks. Stories in a Waldorf
school are usually told twice a week or so for a
period of a couple of weeks. The teacher always
explained in the newsleter which story she was telling
that week. She would also explain which festivals were
being celebrated, what songs they were singing, etc.
In addition, once a month we had parent meetings
(underattended, unfortunately) in which parents could
experience to some degree what their children were
doing in class.
In regards to reviewing teaching materials and the
ability of children to convey content and undertones
to parents, I have two comments. Teachers were always
open to have parents watch the class. There is also
the element of trust involved. It's impossible for
most parents to attend their child's school every day,
so at some point you just have to trust that the
teacher is doing the job you expect. This isn't true
just of Waldorf schools--it's true of any school.
Trust is a difficult concept, especially when parents
are often looking for surety, instead.
Gary wrote: "Forgive me for being blunt, but after 3
and 4 years in kindergarten, your kids were probably
bored to tears in the Waldorf program, and couldn't
wait to jump into reading and writing. Pause for a
moment and imagine how much further they might be if
they HAD been taught to read/write at an earlier
age...this is a point that Waldorfians ignore when
claiming how talented their students are."
I've made no claims to my kids' talents. And I also
know the symptoms of boredom in my kids, as you
probably know the symptoms in your kids. My kids never
became listless or resistant in the morning when going
off to kindergarten--my daughter on her last day of
kindergarten this year was as happy to go to school as
she was back in September. In terms of how much
farther they might be, well, again, that's each set of
parents' decision when choosing what's best for their
kids.
Last weekend my community had its annual village-wide
festival where schools, churches, social service
groups, athletic clubs, etc. put up booths in a park
to promote their organizations. I was manning the
booth for my daughter's kindergarten. A couple came
up--the woman was pregnant and they didn't have any
other kids. They earnestly asked all sorts of
questions about Waldorf--they were earnest at the
neighboring Montessori booth, too. One of the
questions they asked stuck with me--the father asked,
"Would a Waldorf education help their child become a
better engineer?" Now, my response, off the cuff
because I was a bit surprised by the question, was
that the emphasis on imaginative play for young
children in a Waldorf kindergarten would be beneficial
to anyone later on--the ability to think "outside the
box," so valued in the babblespeak of modern corporate
America (and not a term you would ever hear drop from
the lips of a Waldorf teacher), is part of what
children learn in kindergarten.
The fact that a couple who didn't even have kids yet
were asking questions about how their child's
preschool setting would affect her ability to become
an engineer speaks volumes about the parents'
expectations for education. Ultimately, it comes down
to the paents' informed decision.
Thanks for your comments, Gary.
Paul
) ....Gary
)
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!
http://photos.yahoo.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2385.4 ---------------
From: Rose Alford (roseal teleport.com)
Subject: Crayons and Chess question
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 10:52:53 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (200006150455.VAA09907 lists1.best.com)
Dear Listmates,
Maybe I am dumb or something, but I don't get this brown and black crayon
thing. At the gift shop the beeswax crayon sets have black and brown
crayons in them, and they even sell black and brown crayons as well as
color pencils individually. Maybe my kids's school is not as rigid as some
of the others.
Another thing is that when my daughter went on the overnight last week with
the class, some of the children were playing chess, even the teacher played
a game with one of the kids (who I heard was an excellent player.) Isn't
chess to "intellectual" of a game for 9 and 10 year olds? It is a pure
reasoning game. You would think they would prohibit it. Where is the
consistency here?
--Rose
At 12:53 AM 6/15/00 EDT, you wrote:
)Debra,
)
) Wow. How could I have not noticed the symbolic depths of my children's
use
)of color in their art work?! You know alot of it makes sense. I always
)thought that the blue and red of the madonna had to do with the colors of
)royalty in that they were very exspensive to make; but the blue of cold
)distance and the close warmth of red in balance is pure poetry. The notion
of
)green as an earth color (obvious) as physically grounding, yellow to denote
)astral ( the color of the sun, light...how many portrayals of angels are
)there with this color) and red for purified essence are associations readily
)understandable even for one as ignorant as I.
) A couple of questions: When the author speaks of red as the form of pure
)man from the beginning, is that refering to the Spirit of man, in the
)beginning, prior to the very first physical incarnation in history in the
)Steiner scheme of things? If so, doesn't the use of red to symbolize purity
)seem a bit arbitrary and adventatous since blood, being material,
)has nothing whatsoever to due with pure, nonincarnate Spirit? Or am I just
)blowing up my ass with a straw? Did Steiner pick up the pentagram from
)Aristotle's 4 elements + spirit?
) While I was on the stjohn's list, the issue of brown and black crayons
)being frowned upon and not present in a number of waldorf schools came up.
)The anthroposophic explanation was that these colors grounded children
)unnecessarily and quikened the incarnation process prematurely.Would you or,
)god forbid, an ANTHROPOSOPHIST care to elaborate?
) Thankyou very much for throwing me this tidbit. Ray
)PS: wouldn't ya know it, green is my color...
)
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2385.5 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Ad in New York Times
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:06:25 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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News from my sister Mary in the West Village:
"Two days ago the New York Times ran a full page ad by the Waldorf
School and a few others warning parents that computers are not the
answer to the needs of school children. While some of the questions
raised were quite legit, given the source it was pretty weird! I
think the full page cost them about $80,000 for the one day."
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2385.6 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Thanks and a thought
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 00:28:56 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (200006122039.NAA18693 lists1.best.com)
(200006122241.PAA03588 lists1.best.com) (200006150147.SAA01761 lists1.best.com)
Dan Dugan wrote on:
) Chris wrote,
) ) ) raising
) ) ) questions I did not know needed to be raised about a school, like
) ) ) "How many selves do you think my son has?" and "Do your
) ) ) teachers subscribe to any fantastical and racist beliefs about the
) ) ) evolution of human beings?"
)
) And Sune Nordwall commented,
) )During the times I worked at waldorf schools, I never once met a parent or
) )teacher considering or discussing the questions you mention. They probably
) )stand out as just as esoteric and strange to the great majority of all
) )waldorf teachers as they do to you and play the corresponding degree of
) )role in their work.
)
) Ah, those were the good old days, before the internet, before parents
) had so many more ways of finding out what was being hidden from them.
I already commented on the "selves" part before. Rereading the question by
Chris, I see I missed the "and" between "fantastical" and "racist" and took
the second part to be the central point in the connection, involuntarily
conditioned by your (Dan Dugan's) heavy push on this list for the Bierl
concoct on your site. I however have a hunch I'm not very wrong in
interpreting the question by Chris that way.
Answering on that point, strange as it may seem to you, your personal
preoccupations with "race" is not a basic one in actual work as a teacher
and I don't remember it having been discussed once at the schools I've
worked at. But then, I live in Sweden. From a Swedish perspective, your
preoccupations appear very strange and esoteric far beyond the very great
majority of waldorf teachers that I know of.
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2385.7 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: numerous quotes/sources
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 01:14:26 +0200
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References: (200006121133.EAA28923 lists1.best.com)
BarbaraWB aol.com wrote:
) As I read these posts I think about a PLANS conference - has there ever been
) one?
I heard one person turned up the last time it was tried.
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2385.8 ---------------
From: Rechomba cs.com
Subject: Re: Thanks and a thought
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 20:39:46 EDT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 6/15/00 3:42:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
Sune.Nordwall home.se writes:
) Answering on that point, strange as it may seem to you, your personal
) preoccupations with "race" is not a basic one in actual work as a teacher
) and I don't remember it having been discussed once at the schools I've
) worked at. But then, I live in Sweden. From a Swedish perspective, your
) preoccupations appear very strange and esoteric far beyond the very great
) majority of waldorf teachers that I know of.
Sune, what is the "racial" demographics of Sweden? Ray
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2385.9 ---------------
From: Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodWinter.com)
Subject: Re: numerous quotes/sources
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 20:41:27 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (200006121133.EAA28923 lists1.best.com) (200006152315.QAA26281 lists1.best.com)
Sune Nordwall wrote:
) BarbaraWB aol.com wrote:
)
) ) As I read these posts I think about a PLANS conference - has there ever been
) ) one?
)
) I heard one person turned up the last time it was tried.
)
) Sune Nordwall
) Stockholm, Sweden
So how did you amuse yourself when you discovered that you were alone, Sune?
...Gary
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2385.10 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Lesser violence at waldorf schools/programming computers
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 02:18:51 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
[Paul C, on prospective parents' questions about Waldorf:]
)the father asked,
)"Would a Waldorf education help their child become a
)better engineer?"
)The fact that a couple who didn't even have kids yet
)were asking questions about how their child's
)preschool setting would affect her ability to become
)an engineer speaks volumes about the parents'
)expectations for education.
I guess the couple might already be planning that their unborn child should
become an engineer, as you assume. They might have heard, however, that
Waldorf is "artsy" and "creative" (questionable, but a big part of the PR),
and have formulated that question specifically to ask where science, math,
and technology come in, if at all. Too bad you couldn't overhear what they
asked at the Montessori booth. Since Montessori has a much more practical
focus, maybe they asked, "Will a Montessori education help our child become
an artist?"
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2385 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2386 --------------
001 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: Crayons and Chess question
002 - "David Cann" (canndw netz - Re: Crayons and Chess question
003 - "David Cann" (canndw netz - Re: temperments
004 - Rechomba cs.com - Re: Free thought was (joining cults)
005 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: numerous quotes/sources
006 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: numerous quotes/sources
007 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Ad in New York Times
008 - Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodW - Re: Ad in New York Times
009 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Ad in New York Times
010 - Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodW - Re: Ad in New York Times
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2386.1 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Crayons and Chess question
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 02:26:06 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
[Rose:]
)Maybe I am dumb or something, but I don't get this brown and black )crayon
)thing. At the gift shop the beeswax crayon sets have black and )brown
)crayons in them, and they even sell black and brown crayons as )well as
)color pencils individually. Maybe my kids's school is not as )rigid as
)some of the others.
Well, we seem to hear that black and brown are okay for second grade and up,
and even occasionally that a first grade teacher allows them. It is
kindergarteners and tots who are thought to be damaged by using black
(reminded of death, etc.). But what is sold in the school store is
presumably for any student, and the older ones can handle being reminded of
death, I guess. Their etheric forces are stronger.
Also, the schools do vary widely in terms of rigidity, and the faculty may
disagree among themselves.
Diana
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2386.2 ---------------
From: "David Cann" (canndw netzero.net)
Subject: Re: Crayons and Chess question
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:22:07 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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My daughter played chess in third grade (although, since it was a 3/4
combined class, I am not sure whether the teacher considered it a 3rd or 4th
grade activity) about once a week for a few months.
Never occurred to me to ask why. My daughter enjoyed it, although I admit
she liked "taking" her opponents pieces more than she liked winning via
setting up a checkmate.
David
-----Original Message-----
From: Rose Alford (roseal teleport.com)
To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com (waldorf-critics lists.best.com)
Date: Thursday, June 15, 2000 1:59 PM
Subject: Crayons and Chess question
)Dear Listmates,
)
)
)Maybe I am dumb or something, but I don't get this brown and black crayon
)thing. At the gift shop the beeswax crayon sets have black and brown
)crayons in them, and they even sell black and brown crayons as well as
)color pencils individually. Maybe my kids's school is not as rigid as some
)of the others.
)
)Another thing is that when my daughter went on the overnight last week with
)the class, some of the children were playing chess, even the teacher played
)a game with one of the kids (who I heard was an excellent player.) Isn't
)chess to "intellectual" of a game for 9 and 10 year olds? It is a pure
)reasoning game. You would think they would prohibit it. Where is the
)consistency here?
)
)--Rose
)
)
)
)At 12:53 AM 6/15/00 EDT, you wrote:
))Debra,
))
)) Wow. How could I have not noticed the symbolic depths of my children's
)use
))of color in their art work?! You know alot of it makes sense. I always
))thought that the blue and red of the madonna had to do with the colors of
))royalty in that they were very exspensive to make; but the blue of cold
))distance and the close warmth of red in balance is pure poetry. The notion
)of
))green as an earth color (obvious) as physically grounding, yellow to
denote
))astral ( the color of the sun, light...how many portrayals of angels are
))there with this color) and red for purified essence are associations
readily
))understandable even for one as ignorant as I.
)) A couple of questions: When the author speaks of red as the form of
pure
))man from the beginning, is that refering to the Spirit of man, in the
))beginning, prior to the very first physical incarnation in history in the
))Steiner scheme of things? If so, doesn't the use of red to symbolize
purity
))seem a bit arbitrary and adventatous since blood, being material,
))has nothing whatsoever to due with pure, nonincarnate Spirit? Or am I just
))blowing up my ass with a straw? Did Steiner pick up the pentagram from
))Aristotle's 4 elements + spirit?
)) While I was on the stjohn's list, the issue of brown and black crayons
))being frowned upon and not present in a number of waldorf schools came up.
))The anthroposophic explanation was that these colors grounded children
))unnecessarily and quikened the incarnation process prematurely.Would you
or,
))god forbid, an ANTHROPOSOPHIST care to elaborate?
)) Thankyou very much for throwing me this tidbit. Ray
))PS: wouldn't ya know it, green is my color...
))
))
)
)
_____________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Click here for FREE Internet Access and Email
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2386.3 ---------------
From: "David Cann" (canndw netzero.net)
Subject: Re: temperments
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:43:30 -0400
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I'm sorry, Lisa, but it's very hard to discuss things with you when you
rant.
I never said (and I don't believe it's true) that waldorf teachers
"categorize" children by temperament. I think it's one tool that they can
use to help them reach ALL the children in their class. When we talked
about temperaments in parent meetings, we discussed our children in terms of
to what extent they resembled traits of EACH temperament (our teacher
reading from Steiner); not as a categorization, but traits we all have, but
to differing levels.
Your sister the teacher may not apply designations (or, as you say, labels)
to children, but I expect she has techniques that she uses on children who
don't "get math", who have problems with attention span, who are moody,
bossy, flighty, etc. I assert it's the same as a waldorf teacher
considering a child's temperament. I realize that you will disagree with
this assertion, but that is how I have seen teachers of my acquaintance
apply this.
David
-----Original Message-----
From: Lisa Ercolano (momof2gals mindspring.com)
To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com (waldorf-critics lists.best.com)
Date: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 11:50 PM
Subject: Re: temperments
) No, the effect is not the same!!!
) Show me an elementary school anywhere (not Waldorf) who has children
)take the Myers-Briggs test, and I will listen to your argument more
closely.
) My sister has been a third grade teacher in a good public
)school system for more than 15 years, and she has never categorized a child
)by *temperment* (melancholic, phlegmatic, sanguine or choleric) or by who
is
)extroverted, intuitive, perceptive, feeling (ENFP)/or the other
Myers-Briggs
)labels. When she learned that my daughters' Waldorf teachers spoke of
)children this way (even only among themselves, or to parents) she was
)disgusted. Children have their distinct personalities, she pointed out, but
)what use at all is there in *categorizing* those personalities (which are
)subject to wonderful, lovely, interesting changes and growth, and a variety
)of surprising turns in the road, etc.) with a label?
) She pointed out that the only purpose of such a label seemed to be
)assisting the teacher in knowing how to approach that child via "Steiner
)says." (Oh, how those teachers love those Steiner "operating
instructions!")
) Adding to that negative aspect of *labeling* children is the fact that
)the person doing the *labeling* stays with the child for EIGHT YEARS!
)Therefore, the label gets to be a permanent one, coloring the lens through
)which the child is viewed for his or her whole elementary/middle school
)career.
) Sounds great to me!
)
)Lisa (a diagnosed ENFP)
)
)
)----------
))From: "David Cann" (canndw netzero.net)
))To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
))Subject: Fw: temperments
))Date: Wed, Jun 14, 2000, 10:23 PM
))
)
)) Maybe Lisa, who finds temperaments as used by Waldorf educators "archaic"
)) and "useless", could tell me what exactly she dislikes about them and
their
)) use. As Harve and I pointed out a few months ago, people (including
)) children) are not all the same. Whether you relate the differences in
terms
)) of "multiple intelligences", Myers-Briggs personality types, or
temperament
)) type, the purpose and effect is the same.
))
)) David
))
)) -----Original Message-----
)) From: David Cann (cann brainiac.com)
)) To: waldorf-critics-errors lists.best.com
)) (waldorf-critics-errors lists.best.com)
)) Date: Friday, January 14, 2000 12:15 AM
)) Subject: temperments
))
))
)))Debra Harvey posted:
)))---------------------------------------
)))There is also a lot of belittling of temperament types on this list. It
is
)))my understanding that this is a tool used to look at the child
)) individually.
))) How can this be bad, as long as it is not used to pigeon-hole children?
)))When I first learned of Myers-Briggs personality typography years ago, it
)))helped me understand why I worked more easily with certain people and it
)))allowed me to understand those that were different from me. How can this
)) be
)))negative? In fact, I think it explains why our religious experiences
may
)))come to us in different ways. Some have very literal requirements,
others
)))may find it in the mystery of faith.
)))---------------------------------------
)))
)))David:
)))I, too, would like to see this particular point addressed. While
)) discussion
)))of the temperments tends to include stereotypical physical descriptions
)))(phlegmatics as overweight, for instance), I have seen no evidence of
)))anything esoteric, stereotyped, or sinister in their use by Waldorf
)))teachers.
)))
)))Like Debra, I gained a great deal of insight in my professional life when
I
)))learned about Myers-Briggs personality types. Among parents in my
school,
)))there is frequently a great deal of interest (even among those who could
)))care less about Steiner) in the temperments, simply because it's a means
)) for
)))insight into other people. In all the time I've read this list, I have
)))never seen any real discussion of the temperments from a "Waldorf critic"
)))standpoint.
)))
)))David
)))
))
)) _____________________________________________
)) NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
)) Click here for FREE Internet Access and Email
)) http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
)
_____________________________________________
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2386.4 ---------------
From: Rechomba cs.com
Subject: Re: Free thought was (joining cults)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 02:34:59 EDT
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In a message dated 6/13/00 6:20:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
aspbury1 worldnet.att.net writes:
Hi George. Thankyou for writing. Sorry this for my belated reply.
) The next type of ideology in which free will can be
) exercised or not is Religion. Religion serves an important
) purpose in peoples lives. Religious ideologies serve to
) guide people and to give both meaning and purpose to life.
) What is wrong with giving up free though to such
) ideologies??
And Karl said that Religion is the opium of the masses. Besides the point.
You said it yourself: giving up free thought allows religion (and cults) to
exist. Thought yields to belief which is, in my opinion, motivated by fear
and the existencial discomfort of uncertainty. The attempts to reach divine
"truths" via rationality fail, because one finds oneself back at the edge of
the unknown. My question is why take the leap? What is the authenticity of
meaning other than the alleviation of anxiety and discomfort in the face of
absurdity?
) There is the issue of cults. Cults represent very specific,
) albeit not always up front, ideologies. They, like
) religions serve to focus ones life on something. Cults that
) use deception to get people to do the bidding of the guru
) are terrible. The cult issue is not that simple though.
) Lisa are we going to talk about cults, you did mention it. I
) still want to know if people see Waldorf/Anthroposophy as a
) cult.
I know of one individual who says yes.
) As a final note I feel that one must not declare to broadly
) that all ideologies are bad. One must look at the context
) in order to judge for themselves. There will be ideologies
) that we can see good in and there will be ideologies that we
) find evil in. What I am saying to you, Ray, is that I don't
) automatically judge ideology as being black or white. I
) would agree that your extreme (and offensive to me) example
) is one of an ideology which died out and was what I would
) call evil.
The nazi ideology is alive and well. A closing thought:
"When someone speaks to me of intellect, I release the safety on
my pistol."
-Himmler
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2386.5 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: numerous quotes/sources
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:00:56 +0200
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References: (200006121133.EAA28923 lists1.best.com) (200006152315.QAA26281 lists1.best.com) (200006160041.RAA19878 lists1.best.com)
Gary Bonhiver wrote:
) So how did you amuse yourself when you discovered that you were alone, Sune?
Tried milk in the morning coffee ...? :-)
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2386.6 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: numerous quotes/sources
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:41:03 +0200
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References: (200006121133.EAA28923 lists1.best.com) (200006152315.QAA26281 lists1.best.com) (200006160041.RAA19878 lists1.best.com)
Gary Bonhiver wrote:
) So how did you amuse yourself when you discovered that you were alone, Sune?
Sorry about the milk comment instead of giving you the answer you want to
hear:
... as an anthroposophist, it of course felt natural to divide in two to
have someone to talk to ... (:-))
right?
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2386.7 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Ad in New York Times
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:30:34 +0200
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References: (200006152055.NAA28728 lists1.best.com)
Dan Dugan wrote:
) News from my sister Mary in the West Village:
)
) "Two days ago the New York Times ran a full page ad by the Waldorf
) School and a few others warning parents that computers are not the
) answer to the needs of school children. While some of the questions
) raised were quite legit, given the source it was pretty weird! I
) think the full page cost them about $80,000 for the one day."
The used the arguments from:
http://www.ime.usp.br/~vwsetzer/comp-in-educ.html
http://www.gottfried.no/articles/curr_eng.htm
http://www.ora.com/people/staff/stevet/netfuture/
?
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2386.8 ---------------
From: Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodWinter.com)
Subject: Re: Ad in New York Times
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:22:08 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (200006152055.NAA28728 lists1.best.com) (200006161243.FAA29271 lists1.best.com)
Sune Nordwall wrote:
) Dan Dugan wrote:
)
) ) News from my sister Mary in the West Village:
) )
) ) "Two days ago the New York Times ran a full page ad by the Waldorf
) ) School and a few others warning parents that computers are not the
) ) answer to the needs of school children. While some of the questions
) ) raised were quite legit, given the source it was pretty weird! I
) ) think the full page cost them about $80,000 for the one day."
)
) The used the arguments from:
) http://www.ime.usp.br/~vwsetzer/comp-in-educ.html
) http://www.gottfried.no/articles/curr_eng.htm
) http://www.ora.com/people/staff/stevet/netfuture/
Well, of COURSE, Sune!
Buried deep in the first article that you reference is the following...
) To study this ideal age, we primarily have relied on the concepts of
the
) development of children and teenagers introduced by the Austrian
) Rudolf Steiner in 1919, when he created what became known as
) "Waldorf Education."
Now we understand their bias.
) One of the reasons we have chosen to use
) Steiner as a guide is that the school for which he developed his
) program and elaborated his developmental ideas was for the children of
) factory workers (the Waldorf-Astoria cigarette factory in Stuttgart).
) His approach consciously addressed the needs of children growing
) up in an increasingly technological environment.
I wonder what their other reasons were...perhaps because are they
Anthros?
) Today there are
) more than 700 Waldorf Schools around the world. In the United
) States, the most technological of nations, the number of Waldorf
) Schools has increased dramatically in the last 30 years - from seven
in
) 1970 to more than 100 today, not including Waldorf kindergartens.
There are actually 17 references to "Steiner" and 14 references to
"Waldorf" in this article.
) Combining Steiner's developmental ideas, Waldorf educational practice,
) and the fact that computers are mathematical machines, forcing a
purely
) abstract and mathematical type of thinking as well as a symbolic
formal
) language, we may conclude that they should not be used by children in
) any form before approximately age 15, or high school.
Yes, they must be Anthros. Let's hear it for unbiased "science"!
Thanks for the references, Sune!
...Gary
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2386.9 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Ad in New York Times
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 18:17:36 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (200006152055.NAA28728 lists1.best.com) (200006161243.FAA29271 lists1.best.com) (200006161423.HAA24566 lists1.best.com)
Gary Bonhiver wrote:
) Thanks for the references, Sune!
You're welcome!
Anybody knows more about the specific content and argumentation of the ad
13 June in New York Times and who else except the W-school were behind it?
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2386.10 ---------------
From: Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodWinter.com)
Subject: Re: Ad in New York Times
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:22:36 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (200006152055.NAA28728 lists1.best.com) (200006161243.FAA29271 lists1.best.com) (200006161423.HAA24566 lists1.best.com)
Gary Bonhiver wrote:
) Yes, they must be Anthros. Let's hear it for unbiased "science"!
Professor Setzer's home page says it all...
http://www.ime.usp.br/~vwsetzer/
) Dr.Eng., University of S„o Paulo (USP), 1967
) Professor [Prof. Titular], Dept. of Computer Science, Institute of
) Mathematics and Statistics, USP (formally retired but still active...
) [aposentado mas n„o encostado...])
)
) Personal data
)
) Born on Sept. 12, 1940 in S„o Paulo, Brazil
) Married to Dr. Sonia A.L. Setzer (General Practitioner and
) Pediatrician; 1972-1998 Waldorf School Doctor at Escola
) Waldorf Rudolf Steiner de S„o Paulo;1991-1999 President,
) Brazilian Association of Anthroposophical Doctors)
(snip)
) Other interests/activities
)
) Anthroposophy. I have been studying/practicing it since 1961
) Member of the A.Society since 1971, of Class 1 since 1980. I give
) an introductory course on it, and lectures on various topics. Have
) been conducting study groups. For more information on
) Anthroposophy in English and in German, please refer to the
) Goetheanum site; in Portuguese, to the site of the
Anthroposophical
) Society in Brazil, which I maintain.
Professor Setzer's co-author also had many references to Steiner and
Waldorf on his home page.
Hence, the importance of knowing the "rest of the story..."
The other 2 article references from Sune were blatantly Anthro. I'm
picking on this one because it appears at first glance to be a serious
paper writen by unbiased scientists.
...Gary
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2386 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2387 --------------
001 - Chand.Desai mcmail.vander - Re: temperments
002 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: temperments
003 - paul c (ptc712 yahoo.com) - Re: temperments
004 - Chand.Desai mcmail.vander - Re: temperments
005 - paul c (ptc712 yahoo.com) - Re: temperments
006 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: temperaments
007 - "Jim Staffnik" (staffnik - Re: temperments
008 - paul c (ptc712 yahoo.com) - Re: temperments
009 - Rechomba cs.com - Re: temperments
010 - "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2ga - temperment as tool/was just temperments
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2387.1 ---------------
From: Chand.Desai mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Subject: Re: temperments
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:03:54 -0500
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[David]:
)I'm sorry, Lisa, but it's very hard to discuss things with you when you
)rant.
I admire your patience, David.
[David]:
)I never said (and I don't believe it's true) that waldorf teachers
)"categorize" children by temperament. I think it's one tool that they can
)use to help them reach ALL the children in their class. When we talked
)about temperaments in parent meetings, we discussed our children in terms of
)to what extent they resembled traits of EACH temperament (our teacher
)reading from Steiner); not as a categorization, but traits we all have, but
)to differing levels.
)Your sister the teacher may not apply designations (or, as you say, labels)
)to children, but I expect she has techniques that she uses on children who
)don't "get math", who have problems with attention span, who are moody,
)bossy, flighty, etc. I assert it's the same as a waldorf teacher
)considering a child's temperament. I realize that you will disagree with
)this assertion, but that is how I have seen teachers of my acquaintance
)apply this.
Bingo! It is especially hard for me to take seriously some of the posts on
this list that so distort and attribute nefarious motive to practices my wife
does every school day trying to be a good teacher to the children in her class.
It could be that the teacher that Lisa knew pigeon-holed every kid into one of
four temperaments, but I have never yet heard of a child being called only
"choleric" or only one of the other temperaments.
Chand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2387.2 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: temperments
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 19:02:13 GMT
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[Chand:]
)Bingo! It is especially hard for me to take seriously some of the )posts
)on this list that so distort and attribute nefarious motive to )practices
)my wife does every school day trying to be a good teacher to )the children
)in her class.
)It could be that the teacher that Lisa knew pigeon-holed every kid )into
)one of four temperaments, but I have never yet heard of a child )being
)called only "choleric" or only one of the other temperaments.
I think they are trying to be good teachers too, and I don't blame them for
looking for theories to understand the children, help somebody who has
trouble with math, etc. It's the theory *itself* which is dubious.
I have heard Waldorf teachers discuss children's temperaments countless
times, sometimes in a general way and sometimes discussing specific
children. Often one temperament would seem clear-cut ("He's definitely
choleric, look at that square jaw"), other times more than one ("well, I
think she's sanguine, but doesn't she eat a lot? she must be
phlegmatic-sanguine"). But whether a child is classified as having only one,
or more than one, of the four temperaments, I don't think this makes the
theory itself better or worse.
Diana
________________________________________________________________________
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2387.3 ---------------
From: paul c (ptc712 yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: temperments
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:25:55 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I think anyone who's lived (either personally through
their children) with the public schools' ideas
concerning student tracking can be a little more
sympathetic/understanding about other school's
attempts to categorize/label/"name" children.
Unless you are homeschooling, it's hard to avoid the
bureaucratic jargon that an educational insitution
foists on parents and students. Part of the duty of
parents is to ensure that teachers only partially
depend on these labels to get their job done.
--- Diana Winters (winters_diana hotmail.com) wrote:
)
)
)
) [Chand:]
) )Bingo! It is especially hard for me to take
) seriously some of the )posts
) )on this list that so distort and attribute
) nefarious motive to )practices
) )my wife does every school day trying to be a good
) teacher to )the children
) )in her class.
)
) )It could be that the teacher that Lisa knew
) pigeon-holed every kid )into
) )one of four temperaments, but I have never yet
) heard of a child )being
) )called only "choleric" or only one of the other
) temperaments.
)
)
) I think they are trying to be good teachers too, and
) I don't blame them for
) looking for theories to understand the children,
) help somebody who has
) trouble with math, etc. It's the theory *itself*
) which is dubious.
)
) I have heard Waldorf teachers discuss children's
) temperaments countless
) times, sometimes in a general way and sometimes
) discussing specific
) children. Often one temperament would seem clear-cut
) ("He's definitely
) choleric, look at that square jaw"), other times
) more than one ("well, I
) think she's sanguine, but doesn't she eat a lot? she
) must be
) phlegmatic-sanguine"). But whether a child is
) classified as having only one,
) or more than one, of the four temperaments, I don't
) think this makes the
) theory itself better or worse.
)
) Diana
)
________________________________________________________________________
) Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
) http://www.hotmail.com
)
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2387.4 ---------------
From: Chand.Desai mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Subject: Re: temperments
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 15:09:27 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
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[Diana]:
) It's the theory *itself* which is dubious.
This is your opinion. It is not a theory, as I understand it, but a guide. My
wife, who uses temperaments in her classroom, finds it useful. You, who heard
it in the faculty lunch room, do not.
[Diana]:
)But whether a child is classified as having only one,
)or more than one, of the four temperaments, I don't think this makes the
)theory itself better or worse.
Correct. But it does mischaracterize the "theory" to imply that all children
can be pigeon-holed into one of four boxes. It is also untrue to suggest, as
Lisa does, that a child is labeled for eight years based upon an initial
assessment. It is my understanding that people change and that some
temperaments are mores strongly expressed in younger children than in older, and
vice versa. The teacher is supposed to reflect on each child every day. If
this practice is followed, I expect that the teacher would notice that a given
child was changing.
Chand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2387.5 ---------------
From: paul c (ptc712 yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: temperments
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:18:40 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Another thing about the temperments--
The names of the temperments (sanguine, melancholic,
phlegmatic, and choleric) and the qualities associated
with them are value neutral. An individual teacher may
distort the meaning of a given temperment and use it
in a pejorative (or grandiose) fashion, but the intent
is value neutral.
In other types of schools you may see labels like
gifted or slow or special ed, terms which are not
value neutral.
--- paul c (ptc712 yahoo.com) wrote:
) I think anyone who's lived (either personally
) through
) their children) with the public schools' ideas
) concerning student tracking can be a little more
) sympathetic/understanding about other school's
) attempts to categorize/label/"name" children.
)
) Unless you are homeschooling, it's hard to avoid the
) bureaucratic jargon that an educational insitution
) foists on parents and students. Part of the duty of
) parents is to ensure that teachers only partially
) depend on these labels to get their job done.
)
)
) --- Diana Winters (winters_diana hotmail.com) wrote:
) )
) )
) )
) ) [Chand:]
) ) )Bingo! It is especially hard for me to take
) ) seriously some of the )posts
) ) )on this list that so distort and attribute
) ) nefarious motive to )practices
) ) )my wife does every school day trying to be a good
) ) teacher to )the children
) ) )in her class.
) )
) ) )It could be that the teacher that Lisa knew
) ) pigeon-holed every kid )into
) ) )one of four temperaments, but I have never yet
) ) heard of a child )being
) ) )called only "choleric" or only one of the other
) ) temperaments.
) )
) )
) ) I think they are trying to be good teachers too,
) and
) ) I don't blame them for
) ) looking for theories to understand the children,
) ) help somebody who has
) ) trouble with math, etc. It's the theory *itself*
) ) which is dubious.
) )
) ) I have heard Waldorf teachers discuss children's
) ) temperaments countless
) ) times, sometimes in a general way and sometimes
) ) discussing specific
) ) children. Often one temperament would seem
) clear-cut
) ) ("He's definitely
) ) choleric, look at that square jaw"), other times
) ) more than one ("well, I
) ) think she's sanguine, but doesn't she eat a lot?
) she
) ) must be
) ) phlegmatic-sanguine"). But whether a child is
) ) classified as having only one,
) ) or more than one, of the four temperaments, I
) don't
) ) think this makes the
) ) theory itself better or worse.
) )
) ) Diana
) )
)
________________________________________________________________________
) ) Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
) ) http://www.hotmail.com
) )
)
)
) __________________________________________________
) Do You Yahoo!?
) Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger.
) http://im.yahoo.com/
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2387.6 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: temperaments
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 02:00:04 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
[snipped this accidentally; Chand says I overheard discussion of
temperaments in the "faculty lunchroom"}
Well, there was no faculty lunchroom at our school, so I guess I'll just
have to paint you a clearer picture, Chand. Surely you saw this coming. :)
Temperaments were discussed in the faculty *meetings* that I attended over
three school years, during the "Steiner study" and "child study" portions -
we read Steiner's writings on temperaments and discussed this in depth.
Child study takes place every week, and the child's temperament is a central
question, so I have a good sense of how this concept is applied to
individual children. I have also discussed the subject with Waldorf
teachers, in Steiner study groups, listened to it discussed at the Waldorf
kindergarten teachers conference in 1998, and have read not only Steiner but
various other Waldorf sources on the temperaments, such as the Waldorf
kindergarten teachers' newsletter. Finally, I have observed for many hours
while teachers applied these theories in the classroom.
Hopefully, this will also dispel the next argument that will predictably be
raised - probably that Waldorf teachers don't actually use this concept
much, or that some haven't even heard of it. Wait, I forgot about
"overgeneralizing" - am I overgeneralizing?
Diana
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2387.7 ---------------
From: "Jim Staffnik" (staffnik cybertrails.com)
Subject: Re: temperments
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:21:41 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Paul,
Just a question or two.
----------
) From: paul c (ptc712 yahoo.com)
) To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
) Subject: Re: temperments
) Date: Friday, June 16, 2000 1:18 PM
)
) In other types of schools you may see labels like
) gifted or slow or special ed, terms which are not
) value neutral.
How are these terms not value neutral? What values do you assign to these
labels? I thought the labels were simply descriptors of one sort or
another like blond, diabetic, cancerous, cleft palate, spastic,
inattentive, etc.
)
)
) --- paul c (ptc712 yahoo.com) wrote:
) ) I think anyone who's lived (either personally
) ) through
) ) their children) with the public schools' ideas
) ) concerning student tracking can be a little more
) ) sympathetic/understanding about other school's
) ) attempts to categorize/label/"name" children.
I thought tracking was illegal. Am I mistaken? I do not understand how the
attempts of a public school to categorize/label/ "name" children justifies
the same practice in a "other schools" Is the purpose of the practice the
same in both schools? I know that most public school categories are tied
to state and federal funding sources. Is it the same in Waldorf schools?
Certain temperaments get more funding?
) )
) ) Unless you are homeschooling, it's hard to avoid the
) ) bureaucratic jargon that an educational insitution
) ) foists on parents and students.
How is jargon foisted on parents? What jargon is being foisted? How does
foisting jargon hurt parents and students? How is the public school
practice of foisting jargon differ from Waldorf jargon foisting? What
would be a better practice?
Part of the duty of
) ) parents is to ensure that teachers only partially
) ) depend on these labels to get their job done.
How does a parent fulfill this duty? How does a parent fulfill this duty
in a Waldorf school when parents apparently do not know that the labels are
being applied?
Thanks for the considerations,
Jim Staffnik
) ) )
) )
) )
) ) __________________________________________________
) )
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2387.8 ---------------
From: paul c (ptc712 yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: temperments
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 22:07:04 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Jim,
By value neutral I simply meant that the terms don't
convey a negative or positive meaning. They are
descriptors, to use your term. They are a guide, an
aid to teachers and parents in determining the best
ways to teach or guide or live with a child.
I have three kids and they have three different
personalities/temperments. Knowing a child's nature
makes it easier, as a parent, to introduce your
children to the wonderful world of household chores
(to use a simple example).
The fact that other school systems (public, parochial,
etc.) use other types of labels to describe types of
children isn't meant to justify the use of the concept
of temperments in the Waldorf schools. I'm not an
educator, just a parent who has been involved in
parochial schools (as a child) and both public and
Waldorf schools (as a parent). And in all settings the
teachers/administration used different types of labels
to describe different types of children. Folks may
bristle at the idea of labelling kids, especially when
your unique, wonderful, individual child is concerned.
But labelling is, in part, a bureaucratic construct.
No temperment is better/worse, more desired/less
desired than another, and school aren't funded based
on the number of certain types of temperments in a
school (yes, I recognize your tongue was in your
cheek).
Your final question was "How does a parent fulfill
this duty [monitoring the work of the teacher,
especially in regard to the use of labels]in a Waldorf
school when parents apparently do not know that the
labels are being applied?"
The idea of temperments in the context of Waldorf
education is not a big secret. Most any basic book
that discusses Waldorf education mentions temperments.
Again, it's up to individual parents to learn as much
about a particular curriculum as possible--Waldorf,
public school, Montissori, etc., and decide for
themselves if this type of education is fine for their
children.
Parents in the late 20th and early 21st century have
so many more choices when it comes to their children's
education. And I think parents are a lot more critical
about the school choices in their area--expectations
are high. This is good--I imagine many of us grew up
in a time and in a geographical area where the
educational choices were few and where our parents
showed up for parent-teacher meetings and the
occasional school performance but otherwise let the
teachers do their work unmolested.
No more--accountability is one of the watchwords for
any parent when it comes to his or her kids'
education. Again, this is good.
--- Jim Staffnik (staffnik cybertrails.com) wrote:
)
) Paul,
)
) Just a question or two.
) ----------
) ) From: paul c (ptc712 yahoo.com)
) ) To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
) ) Subject: Re: temperments
) ) Date: Friday, June 16, 2000 1:18 PM
)
) )
) ) In other types of schools you may see labels like
) ) gifted or slow or special ed, terms which are not
) ) value neutral.
)
) How are these terms not value neutral? What values
) do you assign to these
) labels? I thought the labels were simply
) descriptors of one sort or
) another like blond, diabetic, cancerous, cleft
) palate, spastic,
) inattentive, etc.
)
) )
) )
) ) --- paul c (ptc712 yahoo.com) wrote:
) ) ) I think anyone who's lived (either personally
) ) ) through
) ) ) their children) with the public schools' ideas
) ) ) concerning student tracking can be a little more
) ) ) sympathetic/understanding about other school's
) ) ) attempts to categorize/label/"name" children.
)
) I thought tracking was illegal. Am I mistaken? I do
) not understand how the
) attempts of a public school to categorize/label/
) "name" children justifies
) the same practice in a "other schools" Is the
) purpose of the practice the
) same in both schools? I know that most public
) school categories are tied
) to state and federal funding sources. Is it the
) same in Waldorf schools?
) Certain temperaments get more funding?
)
) ) )
) ) ) Unless you are homeschooling, it's hard to avoid
) the
) ) ) bureaucratic jargon that an educational
) insitution
) ) ) foists on parents and students.
)
) How is jargon foisted on parents? What jargon is
) being foisted? How does
) foisting jargon hurt parents and students? How is
) the public school
) practice of foisting jargon differ from Waldorf
) jargon foisting? What
) would be a better practice?
)
) Part of the duty of
) ) ) parents is to ensure that teachers only
) partially
) ) ) depend on these labels to get their job done.
)
) How does a parent fulfill this duty? How does a
) parent fulfill this duty
) in a Waldorf school when parents apparently do not
) know that the labels are
) being applied?
)
)
) Thanks for the considerations,
)
) Jim Staffnik
)
) ) ) )
) ) )
) ) )
) ) )
) __________________________________________________
) ) )
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2387.9 ---------------
From: Rechomba cs.com
Subject: Re: temperments
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 01:10:46 EDT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 6/16/00 12:17:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
winters_diana hotmail.com writes:
[Diana]
) I have heard Waldorf teachers discuss children's temperaments countless
) times, sometimes in a general way and sometimes discussing specific
) children. Often one temperament would seem clear-cut ("He's definitely
) choleric, look at that square jaw"), other times more than one ("well, I
) think she's sanguine, but doesn't she eat a lot? she must be
) phlegmatic-sanguine"). But whether a child is classified as having only
one,
)
) or more than one, of the four temperaments, I don't think this makes the
) theory itself better or worse.
Sounds akin to phrenology. Out of curiosity, I am thin for my height and have
a big nose, what combination of temperment does that place me? };~)) Ray
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2387.10 ---------------
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: temperment as tool/was just temperments
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 01:53:38 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Ray -- You joke about it, but to the Waldorf teachers who believe that a
choleric's temperment is physically manifest in his "square jaw" (as Diana
used in the example below), it is not funny. These teacher take it
seriously. I cannot count the times, during out 6 year stint at a local WS,
I heard teachers talk about temperment, sometimes linking the "type" with
certain physical characteristics, sometimes not. (I know I have read about
how certain temperments usually have certain physical characteristics in
either a Steiner book or a book on WE -- or both. I will attempt to locate
the reference(s), and post them for your reading pleasure later.)
I DO remember that melancholics are usually thin and perhaps a bit pale;
they drag along as if their feet are weighted down and are sensitive and
have an air of sadness. Cholerics tend to be sturdy and square; the
phlegmatic (I always felt sorry for the children with this temperment label
-- it seemed so, well, phlegmmy!) are soft and round, with round pale faces
and a dislike of movement or activity. The sanguines always seemed to have
the best sounding qualities -- bright eyes, quick steps, a changing delight
in everything, etc.
Teachers even are taught a method of how to seat children of the various
temperments in class. A shy melancholic, I was told, should sit next to a
shy melancholic, so they will "bore each other into saying something." That
kind of thing. (Color theories go along with this too. As I said, I will
look for the book references, or maybe Diana knows what I am talking
about....)
I know that Waldorf enthusiasts think the categorizing of children by
temperment is just a "tool" to help the teacher (and perhaps parents) better
understand the child. My point is that the "tool" being used is archaic and
questionable as to its accuracy, and worse yet, that "label" -- melancholic,
sanguine, choleric, phlegmatic -- sticks for a long, long time when you have
one main teacher travelling with the child over time. The temperment is
noted before the concrete is dry on your child. Your child changes, but the
label lives on.
Of course, EVERY label or category an educator puts on a child -- be it
melancholic with choleric tendencies, or quick in reading and slow in math,
etc. -- has potential for misuse and abuse.
My point was to look at the tool itself, and where it comes from. The "four
temperments" (which Waldorf teachers and Steiner talk about as if the fact
that they exist at all isn't debatable, which it is!) are derived from the
Middle Ages, or even farther back in history. Steiner put forth his theories
in 1919. Certainly, we as human beings have learned more about child - and
human development in the last 91 years! Certainly, educators who care about
children and the modern world in which they live can develop a better system
than: melancholic, choleric, sanguine, phlegmatic.....
*But it's like Waldorf's use of very violent and patriarchal fairy tales ..
the teachers tell these awful stories (that rival almost anything on TV or
within the much-maligned mass media) because they believe that these "old"
or "traditional" stories contain "archetypes" that speak to important issues
"living within the children." Waldorf bookstores often sell Bruno
Bettelheim's "The Uses of Enchantment," telling why fairy tales -- as
violent and horrible as they can be -- are so important. Yet how many
Waldorf parents are aware of -- or care -- that Bettelheim has been almost
completely discredited, along with his theories?
In Waldorf, old is good. Yet they call it a "progressive" education.
(Scratching my head.)
----------
)From: Rechomba cs.com
)To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
)Subject: Re: temperments
)Date: Sat, Jun 17, 2000, 1:10 AM
)
) In a message dated 6/16/00 12:17:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
) winters_diana hotmail.com writes:
)
) [Diana]
)
)) I have heard Waldorf teachers discuss children's temperaments countless
)) times, sometimes in a general way and sometimes discussing specific
)) children. Often one temperament would seem clear-cut ("He's definitely
)) choleric, look at that square jaw"), other times more than one ("well, I
)) think she's sanguine, but doesn't she eat a lot? she must be
)) phlegmatic-sanguine"). But whether a child is classified as having only
) one,
))
)) or more than one, of the four temperaments, I don't think this makes the
)) theory itself better or worse.
)
) Sounds akin to phrenology. Out of curiosity, I am thin for my height and have
) a big nose, what combination of temperment does that place me? };~)) Ray
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2387 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2388 --------------
001 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: temperments
002 - "Sarina McDonald" (pandor - Waldorf Students "Better" People?
003 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Dan Dugan and Dr Boyer of Carnegie on Waldorf education
004 - Rechomba cs.com - Re: Dan Dugan and Dr Boyer of Carnegie on Waldorf education
005 - Rechomba cs.com - Re: temperment as tool/was just temperments
006 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Dan Dugan and Dr Boyer of Carnegie on Waldorf education
007 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Dan Dugan and Dr Boyer of Carnegie on Waldorf education
008 - Rechomba cs.com - Re: Dan Dugan and Dr Boyer of Carnegie on Waldorf education
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2388.1 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: temperments
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:01:55 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
References: (200006161807.LAA27060 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200006161807.LAA27060 lists1.best.com)
Chand, you wrote,
)Bingo! It is especially hard for me to take seriously some of the posts on
)this list that so distort and attribute nefarious motive to practices my wife
)does every school day trying to be a good teacher to the children in
)her class.
I, for one, don't attribute nefarious motives to Waldorf teachers,
you wife included. But in "trying to be a good teacher" she may be
handicapping herself by following the advice of a guru who knew next
to nothing about children or education, while claiming that "true
knowledge of man" was the key to correct educational practices.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2388.2 ---------------
From: "Sarina McDonald" (pandora aa.net)
Subject: Waldorf Students "Better" People?
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 00:27:22 -0700
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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I just got this from our former list-mate Bob Tolz, and I must say that I
was impressed. I dunno if this can be attributed to a Waldorf education, but
it sure made me smile - and reminded me of a recent thread on this list.
~ Sarina
-----------------------------------
)From the New York Journal News:
8th-graders cancel trip in favor of helping children
By LAURA FASBACH
The Journal News
Publication date: 6/14/2000
NEW CITY --They spent all year holding bake sales and selling pizza to raise
money for their graduating class trip. But taking a three-day sailing
expedition in the Chesapeake Bay suddenly didn't feel right.
Students from the Green Meadow Waldorf School's eighth grade discovered
they'd rather celebrate their graduation by becoming humanitarians than
spending money on themselves.
Last night they presented Dr. Martha MacGuffie with a check for $5,000 to
sponsor children in Kenya left parentless by AIDS. The New City physician,
who helped establish an orphanage in the African nation eight years ago,
spoke to the teen-agers about her work in May, just weeks before they were
to leave for their sailing trip.
That spurred the students to quickly shift gears.
"We looked around the room and we knew exactly what we had to do," said
14-year-old Alexandra Karnow, who attends the Chestnut Ridge school.
Instead of the expensive sailing trip, the students embarked on their own
campaign to educate other students about the Society for Hospital and
Resources Exchange organization founded by MacGuffie, a plastic surgeon.
Known as SHARE, the organization consists almost exclusively of volunteer
physicians, nurses, paramedics and business people.
The local eighth-graders traveled to Princeton, N.J., and suburban
Philadelphia to make presentations on SHARE.
"Everyone wanted to help," said 14-year-old Jonathan Mead. "It was something
that had to be done."
Their efforts were not surprising to MacGuffie, who has made children a key
component of her outreach work in educating the public about the AIDS
crisis. Every week, she talks to students from kindergarten to college. She
also travels to Africa several times a year to help run the orphanage.
While she never asks for money outright, MacGuffie has found many students
often want to help.
"Nothing kids do surprises me anymore," said MacGuffie, who invited the 28
eighth-graders from the Waldorf School to her home last night. She presented
them with a plaque for their efforts and taught them the difference between
being philanthropists and humanitarians.
Philanthropists, she explained, perform good deeds at no cost to themselves
other than monetary. Humanitarians, on the other hand, make personal
sacrifices.
"You are all humanitarians," she told the group.
The money will be used to sponsor some 16 orphans for at least a year by
covering the costs of clean water, nutritious food, medical care and
education.
The students felt it was a small price to pay for making an impact on other
children's lives, said their teacher, Renate Kurth-Sutherland.
"They were so taken by her," Kurth-Sutherland said of MacGuffie. During her
visit to the school, the doctor showed the students gut-wrenching slides of
African children.
"The thing with children is issues don't become real for them until they
make a personal connection," Kurth-Sutherland said. "She inspired them."
For more information on SHARE, call 634-8797.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2388.3 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Dan Dugan and Dr Boyer of Carnegie on Waldorf education
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 14:07:11 +0200
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References: (200006161807.LAA27060 lists1.best.com) (200006170637.XAA25778 lists1.best.com)
Dan Dugan wrote:
your wife may be
) handicapping herself by following the advice of a guru who knew next
) to nothing about children or education, while claiming that "true
) knowledge of man" was the key to correct educational practices.
Reading your judgement about waldorf education, it may be interesting to
read the judgement of Dr. Boyer, director of the Carnegie Foundation for
Education, on the same subject:
"Waldorf Schools are in the most impressive way concerned with quality in
education. All schools would do well to become knowledgeable about the
philosophy that underlies Waldorf education."
(Source: chapter: "The Waldorf Schools Worldwide" in "INDIGO CHILDREN; The
New kids Have Arrived", by Lee Carroll & Jan Tober - ISBN 1-56170-608-6)
One may find it interesting and logically puzzling that someone who knew
"next to nothing about children and education" could lay the basis for
something in the form of today maybe 800 waldorf schools worldwide that
leads the director of the Carnegie Foundation for Education to such a
conclusion.
Maybe your description after all doesn't fully correspond to and describe
what Steiner knew about "children and education" some 80 years ago when
initiating WE.
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2388.4 ---------------
From: Rechomba cs.com
Subject: Re: Dan Dugan and Dr Boyer of Carnegie on Waldorf education
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:11:29 EDT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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In a message dated 6/17/00 5:23:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
Sune.Nordwall home.se writes:
) One may find it interesting and logically puzzling that someone who knew
) "next to nothing about children and education" could lay the basis for
) something in the form of today maybe 800 waldorf schools worldwide that
) leads the director of the Carnegie Foundation for Education to such a
) conclusion.
What I do find logically puzzling is your use of the authoritarian argument
regarding the director of the Carnegie Foundation.
Ray
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2388.5 ---------------
From: Rechomba cs.com
Subject: Re: temperment as tool/was just temperments
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:56:51 EDT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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Lisa,
I joke because I find the theory laughable.It's application, however, I take
very seriously. I simply wanted to move the discussion from application to
content.
The notion of temperment,as I understand Steiner's take on it, is that an
individual's spiritual disposition, in the context of the four elements of
etheric, astral..., is determined by karmic forces and the "inherited forces"
of the parents. Besides the ludicrous association of body characteristics to
tempermental categories (combined, pigeon-holed or otherwise), it would seem
presumptuous to determine a child's temperment based on a karmic
understanding of the child via a one on one relationship or the or the
employment of Steiner's theory.
Since the idea of reincarnation in the middle ages was effectively edited
by the Church, the earliest account for temperment(just a hunch,could be
wrong) would be with the neo-platonists who reintroduced Plato's concept of
reincanation and the predetermined notion of "metals" (gold for the
philosopher-king, silver for the bureucrats/middleclass and brass for the
laborers and slaves). I would be interested if you have made this connection
and would be very interested in your and Diana's research in this matter.
Ps: My nails are more like claws and my incisors are sharp and elongated
=}:~{)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2388.6 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Dan Dugan and Dr Boyer of Carnegie on Waldorf education
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:54:54 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
References: (200006161807.LAA27060 lists1.best.com)
(200006170637.XAA25778 lists1.best.com)
(200006171217.FAA00155 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200006171217.FAA00155 lists1.best.com)
At 2:07 PM +0200 6/17/00, Sune Nordwall wrote:
)Dan Dugan wrote:
)
)your wife may be
) ) handicapping herself by following the advice of a guru who knew next
) ) to nothing about children or education, while claiming that "true
) ) knowledge of man" was the key to correct educational practices.
)
)Reading your judgement about waldorf education, it may be interesting to
)read the judgement of Dr. Boyer, director of the Carnegie Foundation for
)Education, on the same subject:
)
)"Waldorf Schools are in the most impressive way concerned with quality in
)education. All schools would do well to become knowledgeable about the
)philosophy that underlies Waldorf education."
I suspect he's bought the propaganda and doesn't know about either
the wacky philosophy or the incompetent child development theory.
)(Source: chapter: "The Waldorf Schools Worldwide" in "INDIGO CHILDREN; The
)New kids Have Arrived", by Lee Carroll & Jan Tober - ISBN 1-56170-608-6)
)
)One may find it interesting and logically puzzling that someone who knew
)"next to nothing about children and education" could lay the basis for
)something in the form of today maybe 800 waldorf schools worldwide that
)leads the director of the Carnegie Foundation for Education to such a
)conclusion.
This doesn't follow logically. Just because something is popular and
has prestigious supporters doesn't mean it's good.
)Maybe your description after all doesn't fully correspond to and describe
)what Steiner knew about "children and education" some 80 years ago when
)initiating WE.
Tell me how Steiner gained his claimed expertise in child development
and education.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2388.7 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Dan Dugan and Dr Boyer of Carnegie on Waldorf education
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 01:29:52 +0200
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Rechomba cs.com wrote:
) What I do find logically puzzling is your use of the authoritarian argument
) regarding the director of the Carnegie Foundation.
You mean Ernest L. Boyer (1928-1995), former long-time President of the
Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching as an authority on
education in general or on waldorf education?
By the way came upon a quote by Joseph Weizenbaum, Professor Massachusetts
Institute of Technology; author, "Computer Power and Human Reason": "Being
personally acquainted with a number of Waldorf students, I can say that
they come closer to realizing their own potential than practically anyone I
know." at http://www.summerfieldwaldorf.org/philosop.htm when searching
more for Ernest Boyer.
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2388.8 ---------------
From: Rechomba cs.com
Subject: Re: Dan Dugan and Dr Boyer of Carnegie on Waldorf education
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 23:07:26 EDT
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Yes Sune, that guy. Quoting an authority does not lend credibility to your
argument. Are you implying that the former waldorf teachers, administrators
and parents on this list are any less an authority than Dr.Ernest Boyer? What
degree of involvement has he had in waldorf education? More so than the above
mentioned critics on this list? What exactly is your criteria for an
authority on WE? Someone who agrees and promotes it?
Ray
PS: visited the website but found no articles on Dr.Boyer. The only one I
found was "Pushbutton entertainment" in Waldorf Articles page. Alot of
thunderstorms here. Perhaps it is my computer.
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2388 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2389 --------------
001 - Detlef Hardorp (hardorp g - How Steiner gained his expertise in child development and educ
002 - BarbaraWB aol.com - Re: How Steiner gained his expertise in child development and
003 - BarbaraWB aol.com - Re: How Steiner gained his expertise in child development and
004 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: How Steiner gained his expertise in child development and
005 - Daniel Sabsay (danielsabs - Electronic Sunshine for Public Waldorf Schools
006 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Electronic "Sun"shine (?) for Public Waldorf Schools
007 - "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2ga - Not Down Syndrome at all
008 - "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2ga - Re: Electronic Sunshine for Public Waldorf Schools
009 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Know Your Steiner #2
010 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - new mathematics article on web site
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2389.1 ---------------
From: Detlef Hardorp (hardorp gmx.net)
Subject: How Steiner gained his expertise in child development and educatio
n
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 13:03:26 +0100
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-Dan Dugan asked:
)Tell me how Steiner gained his claimed expertise in child development and education.
Detlef Hardorp answers:
I just wrote a little aside on this in an article on Waldorf Education and Jewish Culture, but it's in German. A brief summary in English:
Between the age of 23 and 29, Steiner job was teaching children - in the home of a Viennese Jewish family. One of the children he taught was considered unschoolable - he suffered under Downs syndrome (I hope that is the correct translation of "Wasserkopf", I might be wrong here!). Well, Steiner not only succeeded in educating this child in basic skills, his student managed to learn enough to later attend high school. The man later actually became a doctor. The other children had no disabilities.
You can read more about this is Steiner's autobiography. There he writes how he learned "how instruction and education must become an art" through his activity as educator of these children. "This is were I really studied physiology and psychology". He later developed Waldorf Education from this practical experience.
He was particularly impressed by the "grand style of motherly love" of Pauline Specht, the mother of the children he taught, as well as her "sober medical-psychological faculty of observation". Through her he met Josef Breuer, co-founder of psychoanalysis, and in the conversations between Steiner, Breuer and Pauline Specht, Steiner's understanding of the interplay of physiology and psychology was born - something that characterizes Waldorf Education.
That was a brief summary.
So, indeed, Steiner has no degrees in education. But neither did Pestalozzi - and nor did Bach, Mozart and Milton Babbitt in the field of music. Real geniuses are often self-made men.
The complete article in German can found under www.waldorf.net. Here is the relevant part in the original.
Waldorfp‰dagogik und Judentum
Ursprung der Waldorfp‰dagogik
Es ist vielleicht nicht zuf‰llig, daþ Rudolf Steiner viele j¸dische Lehrer an die erste Waldorfschulen berief und daþ auch viele j¸dische Familien ihre Kinder der Waldorfschule anvertrauten. Denn Waldorfp‰dagogik hatte in einer j¸dischen Familie ihren Ursprung, in der Wiener Familie von Pauline und Ladislaus Specht.
Sechs Jahre, von seinem 23. bis zum 29. Lebensjahr, lebte der Begr¸nder der Waldorfp‰dagogik bei den Spechts als Hauslehrer wie ein Familienmitglied. Er unterrichtete die vier Sˆhne, insbesondere den j¸ngsten, der mit seinem Wasserkopf ein schwerer heilp‰dagogischer Fall war. Dank Steiners Einsatz konnte die Miþbildung fast vollst‰ndig ¸berwunden werden. Das als bildungsunf‰hig eingesch‰tzte Kind holte seine Entwicklung auf und wurde sp‰ter Arzt. Durch diese Herausforderung lernte Steiner, "wie Erziehung und Unterricht zu einer Kunst werden m¸ssen". "Da machte ich mein eigentliches Studium in Physiologie und Psychologie durch". So erwarb er die menschenkundlichen Grundlagen der sp‰teren Waldorfp‰dagogik.
Der Impuls einer p‰dagogischen Kunst konnte sich nur ausbilden, weil Steiner nicht wie ein distanzierter Angestellter lebte; er ging vollst‰ndig in der Familie Specht auf, fuhr mit der weitl‰ufigen j¸dischen Verwandtschaft in die Ferien. An Pauline Specht lernte er "den groþen Stil der Mutterliebe" und ebenso die n¸chterne medizinisch-psychologische Beobachtung. Durch sie lernte er Josef Breuer, den Mitbegr¸nder der Psychoanalyse kennen und in den Gespr‰chen mit Breuer und Pauline Specht formte sich Steiners Einsicht in das Zusammenspiel von Physiologie und Psychologie, wie es die Waldorfp‰dagogik kennzeichnet. "Diese Frau dachte in einer gewissen Richtung noch medizinischer als der so bedeutende Arzt [Breuer]. ... Sie steht als bedeutende Erscheinung in meinem Leben darinnen. ... Unter die Dinge, die mir den Fortgang von Wien schwer machten, gehˆrt auch dies, daþ ich mich von ihr trennen muþte." (zitiert nach Steiners Autobiographie)
- Detlef Hardorp
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2389.2 ---------------
From: BarbaraWB aol.com
Subject: Re: How Steiner gained his expertise in child development and educatio n
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 07:30:32 EDT
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In a message dated 6/18/00 7:15:18 AM, hardorp gmx.net writes:
(( I just wrote a little aside on this in an article on Waldorf Education and
Jewish Culture, ))
I'd like to hear the gist of your article - in English. Thanks, Barbara
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2389.3 ---------------
From: BarbaraWB aol.com
Subject: Re: How Steiner gained his expertise in child development and educatio n
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 07:59:41 EDT
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In a message dated 6/18/00 7:36:04 AM, BarbaraWB aol.com writes:
(( I just wrote a little aside on this in an article on Waldorf Education and
Jewish Culture, ))
Would you please share your main points about Waldorf Education and Jewish
Culture. Thanks.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2389.4 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: How Steiner gained his expertise in child development and educatio
n
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 14:06:12 +0200
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References: (200006181105.EAA03646 lists1.best.com)
Detlef wrote:
The complete article in German can found under http://www.waldorf.net.
Here is the relevant part in the original.
(the parts not in the summary by Detlef:)
Waldorfp‰dagogik und Judentum
Ursprung der Waldorfp‰dagogik
Waldorf education and Jewry
The origin of Waldorf education
Es ist vielleicht nicht zuf‰llig, daþ Rudolf Steiner viele j¸dische Lehrer
an die erste Waldorfschulen berief und daþ auch viele j¸dische Familien
ihre Kinder der Waldorfschule anvertrauten. Denn Waldorfp‰dagogik hatte in
einer j¸dischen Familie ihren Ursprung, in der Wiener Familie von Pauline
und Ladislaus Specht.
Maybe it is not by accident, that Rudolf Steiner called several Jewish
teachers to work at the first Waldorf school and that also many Jewish
families entrusted their children to the Waldorf school, as Waldorf
education had its origin in a Jewish family; the family of Pauline and
Ladislaus Specht in Vienna.
...
Der Impuls einer p‰dagogischen Kunst konnte sich nur ausbilden, weil
Steiner nicht wie ein distanzierter Angestellter lebte; er ging vollst‰ndig
in der Familie Specht auf, fuhr mit der weitl‰ufigen j¸dischen
Verwandtschaft in die Ferien.
The impuls to a pedagogical art could only be developed, because Steiner
did not live as a distanced employee; he completely became part of the
Specht family and went with them and their many Jewish friends on holiday.
...
"Diese Frau dachte in einer gewissen Richtung noch medizinischer als der so
bedeutende Arzt [Breuer]. ... Sie steht als bedeutende Erscheinung in
meinem Leben darinnen. ... Unter die Dinge, die mir den Fortgang von Wien
schwer machten, gehˆrt auch dies, daþ ich mich von ihr trennen muþte."
(zitiert nach Steiners Autobiographie)
"This woman (Mrs Specht) in a sense thought in an even more medical way
than the prominent Dr [Breuer] ... She was an important part of my life ...
Among the things that made my leaving Vienna hard belonged that I had to
separate from her." (quoted from Steiner's autobiography)
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2389.5 ---------------
From: Daniel Sabsay (danielsabsay pacbell.net)
Subject: Electronic Sunshine for Public Waldorf Schools
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 09:19:38 -0800
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I have a modest proposal.
It is now possible to provide a free e-list for every public Waldorf
school in the United States. This would provide the parents and
prospective parents (and ex-parents) of these schools a way to
communicate with each other. This simple facility could go a long way
toward improving the accountability of these schools to the parents and
the community.
Anyone could establish these lists by using one of the new on-line
websites that offer this service for free. Use a consistent naming
convention, so any interested parent can find a particular list just by
knowing the name of the school. Publish the availability of these lists
on the PLANS website as well as by sending periodic messages to the other
SWA lists.
-- Daniel Sabsay, president
East Bay Skeptics Society
www.eb-skeptics.org
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2389.6 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Electronic "Sun"shine (?) for Public Waldorf Schools
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 19:51:02 +0200
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References: (200006181621.JAA02169 lists1.best.com)
Daniel Sabsay wrote:
) I have a modest proposal ...
You need this list to tell the members of PLANS? Don't you meet IRL? Or
there are too few members except those on the board to do the work ...?
Also a small reminder; putting http:// before www.eb-skeptics.org makes the
URL clickable. The site was last updated almost two years ago. The
advertised lecture took place at Berkeley almost three years ago.
In Germany the Sceptics organisation some time ago realised they were not
taken seriously, analyzed the situation, understood they were understood
for what they were; a mainly simple propaganda organization against
anything having to do with the soul and spiritual in man and changed their
attitude, starting to take people and science seriously.
Maybe something for sceptics in US too?
Good to see you at least somewhat recovered from the infarct, though!
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2389.7 ---------------
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Not Down Syndrome at all
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 13:47:10 -0400
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No disrespect intended to Sune for what he wrote regarding Rudolf Steiner's
experience in teaching children.
But to my knowledge (a variety of books, in English, by and about Steiner),
the Viennese child he tutored did NOT have Down Syndrome.
The child, a boy, apparently suffered from hydrocephalus -- known
colloquially as "water on the brain." Children with this condition can range
from moderately mentally retarded to geniuses, depending upon the severity
of the condition and its treatment.
(I have personal experience with two young boys, both adopted, who have
hydrocephalus. One of the boys, now 10, came from Korea with both spina
bifida and hydrocephalus, and though the condition effects the boy's
mobility -- he needs a wheelchair or cane to get around -- he is in the high
above-average IQ range and in Grade 4, is an amazing chess player,
mathematics student, reader and writer.
The other child is only a baby right now, so how the condition may
effect him remains to be seen. Due to personal attention and a great deal of
stimulation from his adoptive parents, he already seems in the above-average
range of development for his age.)
It was highly unlikely that a child with Down Syndrome (a chromosomal defect
that effects intelligence and other physical characteristics of a person)
could be so transformed by an educational modality that he could attend
medical school.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2389.8 ---------------
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: Electronic Sunshine for Public Waldorf Schools
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 13:51:59 -0400
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This is one excellent idea, Mr. Sabsay! It would be particularly helpful, I
think, if the websites/lists provided information on the schools'
enrollment, ethnic and racial demos, faculty credentials, average SAT scores
for graduates, colleges at which graduates are accepted, etc.
I know that at least one Waldorf school, Summerfield in California, does
this. I did find their section on alumni scanty (a paragraph calling for
info on alumni), but the site did indeed gives SAT scores for the last four
or five years as well as the percentage of students who went on to college
or university, etc.
It also would be wonderful to have a place where current and ex-parents
could get information so easily.
Any way you could present this idea to the schools directly?
Lisa
----------
)From: Daniel Sabsay (danielsabsay pacbell.net)
)To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
)Subject: Electronic Sunshine for Public Waldorf Schools
)Date: Sun, Jun 18, 2000, 1:19 PM
)
) I have a modest proposal.
)
) It is now possible to provide a free e-list for every public Waldorf
) school in the United States. This would provide the parents and
) prospective parents (and ex-parents) of these schools a way to
) communicate with each other. This simple facility could go a long way
) toward improving the accountability of these schools to the parents and
) the community.
)
) Anyone could establish these lists by using one of the new on-line
) websites that offer this service for free. Use a consistent naming
) convention, so any interested parent can find a particular list just by
) knowing the name of the school. Publish the availability of these lists
) on the PLANS website as well as by sending periodic messages to the other
) SWA lists.
)
) -- Daniel Sabsay, president
) East Bay Skeptics Society
) www.eb-skeptics.org
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2389.9 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Know Your Steiner #2
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 12:15:33 -0700
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Know Your Steiner question #2 (by an anonymous contributor):
Which profession is particularly suited for mentally inferior people?
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2389.10 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: new mathematics article on web site
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 11:38:37 -0700
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I've put on the web site a new link to an article that critques math
teaching in Waldorf:
Mathematikunterricht an Freien Waldorfschulen: [in German] by Susanne
Prediger & Heiner Ullrich. Journal f¸r Mathematikdidaktik 17 (1996)
3/4, S. 192-211.
You can go there directly:
http://www.mathematik.tu-darmstadt.de/~prediger/WALD-ART.htm
-Dan Dugan
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2389 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2390 --------------
001 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - from akdh's forum: Latin American Waldorf Germano-centric in 6
002 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: "Dr Treher" and Steiner on mental illness
003 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - aftermath of the REPORT broadcast
004 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - financial irregularity in Berlin Waldorf school
005 - "George Aspbury" (aspbury - RE: Free thought was (joining cults)
006 - Detlef Hardorp (hardorp g - Correction: hydrocephalis, not Down syndrome!
007 - BarbaraWB aol.com - Re: "Dr Treher" and Steiner on mental illness
008 - Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodW - Re: How Steiner gained his expertise in child development and
009 - Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodW - Has Anthroposophy evolved?
010 - Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodW - Re: How Steiner gained his expertise in child development and
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2390.1 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: from akdh's forum: Latin American Waldorf Germano-centric in 60s
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 12:18:48 -0700
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Here's an intriguing entry from AKdH's forum, translated by our
European correspondent. The entry was posted anonymously on May 25th.
The URL is:
http://www.forum-hosting.de/cgi-bin/zeigb01.pl?f=4350&h=4350&b=35235
***
Thirty years ago, I worked at a Waldorf school in Latin America. I
was an elementary school teacher of that country. The education laws
of that country demanded that four hours of instruction were held in
the country's native language. The Waldorf school ignored those laws
back then. I was only allowed to teach two hours in the country's
language. During the remaining hours and during the whole afternoon,
instruction was held in German. The German language was important
enough to break the country's laws.
The principal of the German division was the sister of a well-known
Nazi; she used her real name. She was open about her past as a leader
with the Bund Deutscher Maedchen (BDM).
One student's father, whom people called a "Jew", played the role of
the devil at school performances.
I was very young back then and happy to have found work in a country
where it's always been notoriously difficult to find work.
My parents were German Jews who had fled Nazi Germany; they were very
poor. (Just to correct the false perception: "All Jews are rich"). In
many countries, a lot of Jews have to eat in soup kitchens for the
poor. My father had heart problems from the emigration. I worked
there for two years and tried to convince the school leadership that
two hours is against the law. I taught two classes at the secondary
level. (...) I was blamed because the children in my classes had to
learn too much: I taught local geography and local history.
The children really needed that instruction since they'd managed to
start their secondary education without knowing anything about the
country's history or its geography. Instead, German history and
geography were taught.
After two years, a teacher who had come from Germany talked to me and
said: You are a maid here. You do what we say or you will be fired.
I was fired.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2390.2 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: "Dr Treher" and Steiner on mental illness
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 12:13:42 -0700
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Our Eurpean correspondent comments:
***
I am just flabbergasted by the total and complete lack of inhibition
on the part of the Anthropops to air their views on the Internet.
Then again, it's the Internet - a reflection of society.
If you read some UFO pages, you'll see a lot of stuff that's much stranger;
for instance, there's a UFOlogist/Anthroposophist from East Germany who
published his theories linking Anthroposophy and UFOs in a German
UFO magazine - maybe I'll translate it some time - it's truely hilarious.
The URL is http://www.alien.de/degufo/hypo14.htm
I also borrowed a book by Guenther Wachsmuth from 1941 that's titled
"The birth of Spiritual Science - Rudolf Steiners life from 1900 - 1925".
This one may be more obscure than the books on elib; while it's
not Steiner first-hand, it also has a few goodies from Steiner.
It also gives a good history of the founding years of the
Anthroposophic Society. I wish Storr (whose book I just bought)
had read it before writing his books. The sources he used for his
Steiner chapter are pathetically incomplete. Once I finish the
book, I'll comment on it some more.
Like Steiner, Wachsmuth also suffered from schizophrenic symptoms -
he gives a very clear description of his optical hallucinations
in his book. To W., this was his first "supersensible perception",
and he believed it to be a result of the training in the Spiritual
Sciences he's gotten from Steiner. He went to Steiner and told him
about it. Steiner confirmed his observations and said
"But don't think about it too much." Maybe I'll translate the
whole passage - it's rather difficult.
There's a very impressive site by a German psychotic that describes
how he's learned to live with his psychosis. Very interesting
and also touching. He's got an abbreviated English version here:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/Homepages/Pahaschi/welcome.htm
The same page houses two forums, a German and an English one.
The URL for the German forum is:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/Homepages/Pahaschi/forum.htm
The entries in the forum are sent in by readers. Bodo Pahaschi
then updates the page manually (I think). Most of it is psychotics
sharing their experiences, for instance with their medications which
often cause bad side-effects.
Interestingly in the SWA context; one recent entry in the German
forum from a person called "Walter" reads as follows:
52
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 10:28:59 +0200
Subject: Leserforum
---
Hallo Leute, also ein gutes Buch ist auch :
W. Treher: Hitler, Steiner Schreber Gaeste aus einer anderen Welt
Er beschreibt an hand Rudolf Steiner, Adolf Hitler und Schreber die
Symptome und erklaert auch Steiners Werk die Akascha Chronik. Echt eine
Lesereise wert.
Walter
Eine weitere Empfehlung von Walter: "Giftige Psychiatrie" von Peter
Breggin, eine Kritik an den Neuroleptika.
---
Hello guys, another good book is:
W. Treher: Hitler, Steiner, Schreber: Guests from another world.
He describes the symptoms using Rudolf Steiner, Adolf Hitler and
Schreber as examples, he also explains Steiner's work: "From The
Akasha Chronicles". I highly recommend it!
Walter
Another tip from Walter: "Toxic Psychiatry" by Peter Breggin,
a criticism of neuroleptics.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2390.3 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: aftermath of the REPORT broadcast
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 11:42:35 -0700
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Our European correspondent fills us in on further developments
following the broadcast in which allegations of racism were made
against Waldorf:
***
While reading the April archives I noticed some msgs dealing with
the aftermath of the German REPORT broadcast; you might like to
forward this to the list.
As you may recall, REPORT quoted Heiner Ullrich, a researcher at
the University in Mainz, on the show. Ullrich in turn wrote
a letter to Walter Hiller, (Chairman of the German Waldorf School
Association) in order to clarify things. Detlef Hardorp published
a scan of the letter on his website www.waldorf.net.
Sune Nordwall quoted Heiner Ullrich's letter, in the WCA April
archives as follows:
Dr. Ullrich at the University of Mainz, one of the educational
experts, put forth in the program with an edited part of a sentence as
supporting the allegations of Althof, afterwards wrote to the
Association of Waldorf schools:
"The contribution by Mr Friedler (TV-reporter of the program) and his
colleagues is not a contribution to investigative journalism. I find
it rather to be consistently biased. It admittedly starts from single
wholly criticizeable phenomena of the practice at school and from some
amazing sentences by Rudolf Steiner, but evaluates Waldorf education
in its totality, among other things through the choice of "signs", in
a negative way and thereby insults its basic humanist goal.
"Through the biased line of reasoning and the very rough shortening of
interviews the program has not contributed to a differentiated
experience of the Waldorf schools and their growing pedagogical
importance, but only created new stereotypes respectively strengthened
old ones. It puts Waldorf schools in a corner where they do not
belong, neither in history, nor in the present. The Report-program has
neither contributed to the continued development of Waldorf edcuation
nor to the intensification of the dialogue between the pedagogically
interested public and the Free Waldorf schools, in which I since long
have been engaged." (see short version)
There was a second letter from Ullrich to Hiller, also published
on Hardorp's site: http://www.waldorf.net/ulrich3.htm
It reads as follows:
Dear Mr. Hiller,
I was rather surprised to find that you published my letter
from March 2nd 2000 about the Report broadcast on the Internet
without prior consultation with me. I would not have agreed to it.
What was intended as a personal clarification for you and the board
of the Bund der Freien Waldorfschulen (BdFW - Association of Independent
Waldorf School) has now been drawn into a fierce controversy with
camp mentalities (...).
In order to be not misunderstood, I would like to emphasize that
I have no doubts about the veracity of the statements made by the
disappointed Waldorf parents Friedler interviewed. There are
also no doubts about the authenticity of the 5th grade history lesson
books that contained the stories about Atlantis and the strange
racial stereotypes. I'm sure that responsible Waldorf teachers will
attack these problems in order to end the prejudices that can arise
from such views. The words with which I was quoted in the broadcast
were intended to express this very hope. In the interim, I was able
to verify that Mr. Friedler did not take these words out of their
context in the interview.
(...)
Then there's a reply of Hardorp on that page where he apologizes for
publishing the private letter and says it was a misunderstanding....
but he can translate that himself if he deems it necessary.
Interestingly, the April edition of the German Anthropop Info3 magazin,
which covered the REPORT show and its aftermath, made no mention of Hiller's
second letter. Neither did Sune's post from April 6, nor did the
translation on his site, even though Hiller's letter has been on
Hardorp's site since mid to late March.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2390.4 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: financial irregularity in Berlin Waldorf school
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 11:09:32 -0700
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Our European correspondent writes:
***
Here are two more articles, this time from the Berliner Zeitung, about that
same school in Berlin. Berliner Zeitung is a major newspaper in East-Berlin.
I think this was not the end of the story: I believe Wacker is no longer
with the school. It would be interesting to know what that school's
student fluctuation was after these incidents. I'm also wondering about
Wacker's past. Clearly, he must have been an experienced Waldorf teacher
before they allowed him to found this school. I'm also wondering if the
parents got their money back since.
But maybe Detlef Hardorp knows more about this case for the school is
in his district.
http://www.berlinonline.de/wissen/berliner_zeitung/archiv/1998/1218/lo
kales/0022/index.html
Berlin
Dec 18, 1998
By Amelie von Heydebreck
Parents want their money back
Waldorf School South-East: money for school extension seems to have
disappeared.
Parent have accused the spokesperson of the Waldorf school in
Niederschoeneweide, Tilman Wacker, to have transferred DM 660,000
(about. $350,000) from an account of the school initiative to a money
market account opened by him. Detlef Hardorp, the spokesperson for
the Waldorf schools in Berlin-Brandenburg, said that an independent
accountant has been hired to investigate the school's finances. The
Bund der Freien Waldorfschulen (Association of German Waldorf
Schools) reacted and distanced itself from Wacker, who functioned as
a kind of principal at the school. Walter Hiller, chairman of the
association, commented that [this was done] "in order to save the
school's reputation".
The dispute started with the necessity of a building addition. The
number of students has been increasing steadily. Currently, there are
315 students, 345 students are anticipated for the next school year.
There are not enough classrooms for the new students. An addition,
Wacker said, will cost "at least DM 25M". Govermental subsidies were
not available.
Swiss Investor Found
Late May, Wacker thought he had found a solution. He presented the
offer of a "Swiss investor" to the board. The investor asked to
remain anonymous; he offered to contribute DM 8M. He demanded a
six-digit security deposit and the agreement that the school "would
be discreet about it", Wacker told the Berliner Zeitung. About 80
parents deposited money into the board's account, some giving
five-digit sums, for a total of DM 370,000. The same bank account was
used for other donations as well.
According to bank records examined by the Berliner Zeitung, Wacker
subsequently transferred a total of DM 660,000 into a money market
account to which only he has access. Wacker declared in an affidavit
that it was one of the investor's conditions to deposit the money in
a personal account and not in an account belonging to the initiative.
He rejected requests for transparency by other members of the
initiative, according to a board member who asked not to be named.
Meanwhile, a quarter of the parents ask for their money to be
returned. Despite written requests submitted by the parents' lawyers,
no money has been returned, the board member said. Asked about his
financial transactions and the whereabout of the money, Wacker
refused to comment: "This is a pending investigation, which is why I
don't want to comment on it." Back then, he had considered the
dealings with the Swiss Investor "sufficiently secured". And today?
Things turned out to be much more complicated, he said.
Tilman Wacker, who teaches religion, has been accused by parents of
displaying an authoritarian leadership style. A former board member
reports that this led to eight 4th grade students leaving the school
in one year.
A former teacher reports that Wacker accused her of "antisocial
behavior" because she opposed Wacker in pedagogical matters. Since he
was not unable to fire her, he cut her teaching assignments and
expelled her from the College of Teachers (while continuing pay).
Problem: "DDR-Mentalitaet"
Wacker sees the roots of the "opposition" towards him in the
"DDR-Mentalitaet" [East German mentality stemming from 40 years of
communist rule] of many colleagues and parents: "They did not
appreciate individuality, they wanted equality in everything."
Meanwhile, the Bund der Waldorfschulen suggested Wacker leave the
school. "We deem it better if Wacker does not work directly at the
school anymore", Hiller said. Legally, however, only the
Rudolf-Steiner-School Zehlendorf can fire Wacker. The school refused
to comment on the case.
A follow-up is here:
http://www.berlinonline.de/wissen/berliner_zeitung/archiv/1999/0628/lo
kales/0057/index.html
Berlin
Jun 28, 1999
By (kek)
Waldorf Teachers Stays: The spokesperson of the Waldorf school in
Niederschoeneweise can return to his job. A civil court annulled
Tilman Wacker's dismissal by the Rudolf-Steiner-School Berlin. The
school had fired the teacher in March because he had not returned
donations of DM 250,000 to the account of the parent initiative. He
had deposited the money in a money market account to which only he
had access.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2390.5 ---------------
From: "George Aspbury" (aspbury1 worldnet.att.net)
Subject: RE: Free thought was (joining cults)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 18:06:17 -0500
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[ray]
) Thought yields to belief which is, in my
) opinion, motivated by fear
) and the existencial discomfort of uncertainty.
) The attempts to reach divine
) "truths" via rationality fail, because one finds
) oneself back at the edge of
) the unknown. My question is why take the leap?
) What is the authenticity of
) meaning other than the alleviation of anxiety and
) discomfort in the face of
) absurdity?
Everyone has their own way of believing it all. To some,
faith in a god or gods or even another person is how they
cope with life. I am bound by my beliefs that I should not
judge those who are believers in an absolute truth. I find
that I would agree with your thoughts as to what motivates
those who seek a truth in a religion/cult. I would add that
these beliefs can also serve to add comfort to peoples
lives. These motivations do not make them any less informed
or evolved in their way of dealing with life. The faithful
believers simply sees things differently than those who have
no gods. To answer your question, I would say that they
choose to take a leap of faith because it is what they need.
Their experience is just as authentic as those who do not
believe as they do. I ask what is wrong with being happy in
life even if it means constructing a world of spirits, gods,
devils, evil, good, gnomes, faeries, magic, soul, life after
death etc... the list is long?
George
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2390.6 ---------------
From: Detlef Hardorp (hardorp gmx.net)
Subject: Correction: hydrocephalis, not Down syndrome!
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 01:39:18 +0100
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It is indeed hydrocephalis and not Down syndrome which the boy which Steiner taught had. Thanks to the two correctors who helped me out here.
- Detlef Hardorp
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2390.7 ---------------
From: BarbaraWB aol.com
Subject: Re: "Dr Treher" and Steiner on mental illness
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 23:17:19 EDT
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In a message dated 6/18/00 4:22:31 PM, dan dandugan.com writes:
(( I wish Storr (whose book I just bought)
had read it before writing his books. The sources he used for his
Steiner chapter are pathetically incomplete. Once I finish the
book, I'll comment on it some more. ))
I completely agree with this assessment. I was furious when the "head
teacher" at the school I recently left paraded this book about in front of
parents saying that "Steiner came off very well. I mean, he was moral. He
didn't womanize, etc." Moral? Please. I'm adding a long letter to Anthony
Storr to my list of summer writing assignments. I don't know if Dr/Mr. Storr
knows how to research!
Barbara
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2390.8 ---------------
From: Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodWinter.com)
Subject: Re: How Steiner gained his expertise in child development and education
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 23:24:04 -0400
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References: (200006181105.EAA03646 lists1.best.com)
Detlef Hardorp wrote:
) -Dan Dugan asked:
)
) )Tell me how Steiner gained his claimed expertise in child development and education.
)
) Detlef Hardorp answers:
) I just wrote a little aside on this in an article on Waldorf Education and Jewish Culture, but it's in German. A brief summary in English:
)
) Between the age of 23 and 29, Steiner job was teaching children - in the home of a Viennese Jewish family. One of the children he taught was considered unschoolable - he suffered under Downs syndrome (I hope that is the correct translation of "Wasserkopf", I might be wrong here!). Well, Steiner not only succeeded in educating this child in basic skills, his student managed to learn enough to later attend high school. The man later actually became a doctor. The other children had no disabilities.
)
) You can read more about this is Steiner's autobiography. There he writes how he learned "how instruction and education must become an art" through his activity as educator of these children. "This is were I really studied physiology and psychology". He later developed Waldorf Education from this practical experience.
)
) He was particularly impressed by the "grand style of motherly love" of Pauline Specht, the mother of the children he taught, as well as her "sober medical-psychological faculty of observation". Through her he met Josef Breuer, co-founder of psychoanalysis, and in the conversations between Steiner, Breuer and Pauline Specht, Steiner's understanding of the interplay of physiology and psychology was born - something that characterizes Waldorf Education.
)
) That was a brief summary.
Detlef,
You have a lot of chutzpah giving Steiner credit for learning about education through his experience tutoring a Jewish family who he later highly insulted with his published anti-Semitic views on the Jews...
"The family [for which Steiner was a live-in tutor, in Vienna, ca 1880] was Jewish. In their views they were quite free from any sectarian or racial narrowness,
but the head of the family, to whom I was strongly attached, felt a certain sensitiveness about any expression of a Gentile in regard to the Jews. The flame of
anti-Semitism which had sprung up at this time caused this feeling."
Steiner discounted their "sensitiveness about any expression of a Gentile in regard to the Jews." by blaming it on the political times!
"Now, I took an interested part in the struggle which the Germans in Austria were then carrying on in behalf of their national existence. I was also led to
occupy myself with the historical and social position of the Jews. Especially earnest did this activity become after the appearance of Hamerling's Homunculus.
This eminently German poet was considered by a great part of the journalists as an anti-Semite because of this work; indeed, he was claimed by the
anti-Semites of German nationality as one of their own. This did not concern me at all, but I wrote a paper on the Homunculus in which, as I thought, I
expressed myself quite objectively in regard to the position of Judaism. The man in whose home I was living, and who was my friend, took this to be a special
form of anti-Semitism. Not in the least did his friendly feeling for me suffer on this account, but he was affected with profound distress. When he had read the
paper, he faced me, his heart torn with innermost sorrow, and said to me: 'What you have written here in regard to the Jews cannot be explained in a friendly
sense. This, however, is not what strikes me, but the fact that, in view of your close relation with us, you could have had the experiences which induced you to
write thus only in connection with us and our friends.' He was mistaken; I had formed my opinions altogether on the basis of an intellectual and historical
survey; nothing personal had slipped into my judgment. He could not see the matter in this way. His reply to my explanation was: 'No, the man who teaches
my children is, after this paper, no "friend of the Jews."' ...To all this was added the fact that many of my friends had taken on from their national struggle a
tinge of anti-Semitism in their view of Judaism. They did not look sympathetically upon my holding a post in a Jewish family; and the head of this family saw
in my friendly mingling with such persons only a confirmation of the impression he had received from my paper." (Steiner, 1925, CML pp. 142-143)
Did your paper about Waldorf Education and Jewish Culture mention this serious rift between Steiner and this Jewish family?
...Gary
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2390.9 ---------------
From: Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodWinter.com)
Subject: Has Anthroposophy evolved?
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 00:09:49 -0400
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Has Anthroposophy evolved since Steiner died? Have original ideas and thoughts of others been incorporated into Anthroposophy and embraced as
equal in stature to Steiner's ideas? Or do all Anthroposophical paths lead back to Steiner by simply re-stating or reinterpreting Steiner's
words?
Please provide concrete examples.
...Gary
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2390.10 ---------------
From: Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodWinter.com)
Subject: Re: How Steiner gained his expertise in child development and education
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 00:50:33 -0400
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I provided the following Steiner quote in an earlier email...
) "Now, I took an interested part in the struggle which the Germans in Austria were then carrying on in behalf of their national existence. I was also led to
) occupy myself with the historical and social position of the Jews. Especially earnest did this activity become after the appearance of Hamerling's Homunculus.
) This eminently German poet was considered by a great part of the journalists as an anti-Semite because of this work; indeed, he was claimed by the
) anti-Semites of German nationality as one of their own. This did not concern me at all, but I wrote a paper on the Homunculus in which, as I thought, I
) expressed myself quite objectively in regard to the position of Judaism. The man in whose home I was living, and who was my friend, took this to be a special
) form of anti-Semitism. Not in the least did his friendly feeling for me suffer on this account, but he was affected with profound distress. When he had read the
) paper, he faced me, his heart torn with innermost sorrow, and said to me: 'What you have written here in regard to the Jews cannot be explained in a friendly
) sense. This, however, is not what strikes me, but the fact that, in view of your close relation with us, you could have had the experiences which induced you to
) write thus only in connection with us and our friends.' He was mistaken; I had formed my opinions altogether on the basis of an intellectual and historical
) survey; nothing personal had slipped into my judgment. He could not see the matter in this way. His reply to my explanation was: 'No, the man who teaches
) my children is, after this paper, no "friend of the Jews."' ...To all this was added the fact that many of my friends had taken on from their national struggle a
) tinge of anti-Semitism in their view of Judaism. They did not look sympathetically upon my holding a post in a Jewish family; and the head of this family saw
) in my friendly mingling with such persons only a confirmation of the impression he had received from my paper." (Steiner, 1925, CML pp. 142-143)
Why is it that when I perform a search on "Hamerling" or "Homunculus" at either the Steiner Press web site or the Steiner E.LIB site (or via many general internet search engines) that they turn up *nothing* in print regarding Steiner's reviews? Steiner himself says that he wrote a paper...why can't I find it in the official Steiner archives? Was it embarassing to Anthroposophy?
Only a short bio of Hamerling came up at Steiner ELIB, in which the following was stated...
"In 1888 his Homunculus appeared, and was reviewed with extensive comment by Rudolf Steiner."
Please note: "extensive comment by Steiner...." Where is it? Can someone please provide a link to a site that has published this paper either online or in print?
Why had it so enraged Steiner's Jewish "friends"?
Thanks!
...Gary
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2390 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2391 --------------
001 - Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodW - Re: How Steiner gained his expertise in child development and
002 - "Jim Staffnik" (staffnik - Re: temperments
003 - BarbaraWB aol.com - Steiner and "jewish culture"
004 - BarbaraWB aol.com - PS Re Steiner and "jewish culture"
005 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: How Steiner gained his expertise in child development and
006 - BarbaraWB aol.com - Re: Electronic Sunshine for Public Waldorf Schools
007 - "George Aspbury" (aspbury - RE: temperaments
008 - "George Aspbury" (aspbury - RE: Steiner and "Jewish culture"
009 - Chand.Desai mcmail.vander - Re: temperaments
010 - Chand.Desai mcmail.vander - Re: temperments
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2391.1 ---------------
From: Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodWinter.com)
Subject: Re: How Steiner gained his expertise in child development and education
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 01:56:12 -0400
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References: (200006181105.EAA03646 lists1.best.com) (200006190324.UAA03386 lists1.best.com) (200006190454.VAA07601 lists1.best.com)
Gary Bonhiver wrote:
) Why is it that when I perform a search on "Hamerling" or "Homunculus"
) at either the Steiner Press web site or the Steiner E.LIB site (or via many
) general internet search engines) that they turn up *nothing* in print
) regarding Steiner's reviews? Steiner himself says that he wrote a paper...
) why can't I find it in the official Steiner archives?
) Was it embarassing to Anthroposophy?
)
) Only a short bio of Hamerling came up at Steiner ELIB, in which
) the following was stated...
)
) "In 1888 his Homunculus appeared, and was reviewed with
) extensive comment by Rudolf Steiner."
Performing some more searches, I correct my earlier statement...I _did_ find some
references to Hamerling and to Homunculus, but nothing where Steiner was
reviewing Hamerling's work called "Homunculus" that Steiner referred to...
) I wrote a paper on the Homunculus in which, as I thought, I expressed
) myself quite objectively in regard to the position of Judaism
Does this paper exist?
...Gary
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2391.2 ---------------
From: "Jim Staffnik" (staffnik cybertrails.com)
Subject: Re: temperments
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 22:46:57 -0700
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----------
) From: paul c (ptc712 yahoo.com)
) To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
) Subject: Re: temperments
) Date: Friday, June 16, 2000 10:07 PM
)
) Jim,
)
) By value neutral I simply meant that the terms don't
) convey a negative or positive meaning. They are
) descriptors, to use your term. They are a guide, an
) aid to teachers and parents in determining the best
) ways to teach or guide or live with a child.
I think this is the intent of the "jargon" used in public schools. It is a
means of communication with which parents are unfamiliar. I think it it is
the job of the educator to clue parents in to terms used and their
meanings. In our local school here I know that considerable resources,
both financial and otherwise are spent trying to educate parents about
educational jargon, terms, and practices.
)
) I have three kids and they have three different
) personalities/temperments. Knowing a child's nature
) makes it easier, as a parent, to introduce your
) children to the wonderful world of household chores
) (to use a simple example).
I also have three kids, ages 5, 7, and 10. What I see of their
personalities is mostly shaped by their environment. I suppose it is
easier for me to draw connections between environmental factors and their
behavior.
)
) The fact that other school systems (public, parochial,
) etc.) use other types of labels to describe types of
) children isn't meant to justify the use of the concept
) of temperments in the Waldorf schools. I'm not an
) educator, just a parent who has been involved in
) parochial schools (as a child) and both public and
) Waldorf schools (as a parent). And in all settings the
) teachers/administration used different types of labels
) to describe different types of children. Folks may
) bristle at the idea of labelling kids, especially when
) your unique, wonderful, individual child is concerned.
) But labelling is, in part, a bureaucratic construct.
Yes children are labeled. So are adults. I know many people who bristle
when their children are labled. Yes, in public schools labeling is a
bureaurcratic construct. That is a financial issue. But labeling is also
a means of commuincating about children. Just like Waldorf people
communicate using the language of temperament. I think the question here
is not the utility of labeling but the validity of the label.
)
) No temperment is better/worse, more desired/less
) desired than another, and school aren't funded based
) on the number of certain types of temperments in a
) school (yes, I recognize your tongue was in your
) cheek).
Partly in cheek. I say partly because some temperaments might be more
difficult to deal with than others and would require more resources.
)
) Your final question was "How does a parent fulfill
) this duty [monitoring the work of the teacher,
) especially in regard to the use of labels]in a Waldorf
) school when parents apparently do not know that the
) labels are being applied?"
)
) The idea of temperments in the context of Waldorf
) education is not a big secret. Most any basic book
) that discusses Waldorf education mentions temperments.
) Again, it's up to individual parents to learn as much
) about a particular curriculum as possible--Waldorf,
) public school, Montissori, etc., and decide for
) themselves if this type of education is fine for their
) children.
I think this is in part true. I also believe that it is the responsibility
of school personnel to educate parents openly about what is being applied.
I attended an open house at a "waldorf inspired" charter public school for
prospective parents. There was no mention of Steiner or associated
beliefs. In the school's charter the describe Steiner as a "scientist" not
a spiritual scientist, and anthroposophy is nowhere mentioned. References
are not direct.
)
) Parents in the late 20th and early 21st century have
) so many more choices when it comes to their children's
) education. And I think parents are a lot more critical
) about the school choices in their area--expectations
) are high. This is good--I imagine many of us grew up
) in a time and in a geographical area where the
) educational choices were few and where our parents
) showed up for parent-teacher meetings and the
) occasional school performance but otherwise let the
) teachers do their work unmolested.
)
) No more--accountability is one of the watchwords for
) any parent when it comes to his or her kids'
) education. Again, this is good.
In my experience accountability is the watchword for school personnel.
Take care, Jim.
)
)
)
) --- Jim Staffnik (staffnik cybertrails.com) wrote:
) )
) ) Paul,
) )
) )
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2391.3 ---------------
From: BarbaraWB aol.com
Subject: Steiner and "jewish culture"
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 07:42:14 EDT
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In a message dated 6/18/00 11:27:39 PM, Gary GoodWinter.com writes:
(( Between the age of 23 and 29, Steiner job was teaching children - in the
home of a Viennese Jewish family. One of the children he taught was
considered unschoolable - he suffered under Downs syndrome (I hope that is
the correct translation of "Wasserkopf", I might be wrong here!). Well,
Steiner not only succeeded in educating this child in basic skills, his
student managed to learn enough to later attend high school. The man later
actually became a doctor. The other children had no disabilities.
)
) You can read more about this is Steiner's autobiography. There he writes
how he learned "how instruction and education must become an art" through his
activity as educator of these children. "This is were I really studied
physiology and psychology". He later developed Waldorf Education from this
practical experience.
)
) He was particularly impressed by the "grand style of motherly love" of
Pauline Specht, the mother of the children he taught, as well as her "sober
medical-psychological faculty of observation". Through her he met Josef
Breuer, co-founder of psychoanalysis, and in the conversations between
Steiner, Breuer and Pauline Specht, Steiner's understanding of the interplay
of physiology and psychology was born - something that characterizes Waldorf
Education.
)
) That was a brief summary.
))
What does this anecdote have to do with JEWISH CULTURE? I thought your
article was about Steiner and Jewish Culture. This is a story - from
Steiner's autobiography, nonetheless* - about his living with a family.
*Most people who have visions, delusions, exhibit grandiosity, can lecture
for hours at a time w/out notes are paranoid, so I wouldn't read too much
accuracy into Steiner's writings as they were all, in my opinion, written by
someone who was insane.
Barbara Bonhiver, M.S.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2391.4 ---------------
From: BarbaraWB aol.com
Subject: PS Re Steiner and "jewish culture"
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 07:47:36 EDT
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Re: Detlef and alleged article:
Detlef, quoting Steiner:
(( "Now, I took an interested part in the struggle which the Germans in
Austria were then carrying on in behalf of their national existence.
Barbara:
Which was, revving up to exterminate the 6 million Jews who were blamed for
Germany's problems. Rememberl, Mein Kampf was written BEFORE Steiner died.
Detlef continuing re: his "article:"
"I was also led to occupy myself with the _historical_ and _social_ position
of the Jews."
Barbara:
Which, in Steiner's opinion, was............? ))
Barbara
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2391.5 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: How Steiner gained his expertise in child development and education
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 14:01:58 +0200
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References: (200006181105.EAA03646 lists1.best.com) (200006190324.UAA03386 lists1.best.com)
Gary Bonhiver wrote:
) Did your paper about Waldorf Education and Jewish Culture mention this serious rift between Steiner and this Jewish family?
Yes, Detlef's paper (http://www.waldorf.net/judentum.htm) describes this
rift and links to
http://www.taz.de/tpl/2000/05/13.nf/text?Tname=a0154&list=TAZ_txt&idx=98
where he somewhat more describes the basis for it in TAZ (The Daily
Newspaper) 13 May 2000:
********************************************
Steiner und das Judentum
Die Kommission "Anthroposophie und die Frage der Rassen" hat Steiners
Gesamtwerk durchforstet: "Zu scharfe Formulierungen f¸r den eigentlich
gemeinten Standpunkt"
Rudolf Steiner hat zu seiner Zeit die strikte Trennung von Staat und Kultur
gefordert. Aus dieser Grundhaltung hat er sich auch gegen den Zionismus als
staatsbildende Idee ausgesprochen und sich f¸r die Integration des
Judentums in eine gemeinsame, jedoch differenzierte europ‰ische Kultur
eingesetzt.
....
Steiner and Jewry
The commission "Anthroposophy and the question of races" has researched the
complete works by Steiner: "Too sharp formulations for his intended
position"
Rudolf Steiner during his time demanded the strict separation between state
and cultural life. On the basis of this basic position he also spoke
against Zionism as a basis for the formation of a state and worked for an
integration of Jewry in a common, but differentiated European culture.
Did Steiner thereby also represent anti-Semitic standpoints? This question
was one of the tasks that the commission "Anthroposophy and the question of
races" led by Ted van Baarda, lawyer and internationally active in the
field of human rights (and anthroposophist) worked to investigate.
After several times having gone through the 89 000 pages of Steiner's total
works, the commission, appointed by the Anthroposophical Society in
Holland on 1 April 2000 presented its final extensive, 720 pages, report
to the press http://www.info3.de/aktuell/news/aktuell0400e(gb).html (not
fully clickable; copy the URL including the ).html at the end into the
address field of the browser)
They had found 16 remarks that, if they had been made in the same way
today in Holland, according to law, would have been judged as
discriminatory. Two of them concerned Jewry.
The first one can be found in an book review, that the 27 year old Steiner
wrote on Hamerling's "Homunculus" for Deutsche Wochenschrift (German
Weekly) in 1888.
"But the Jews need Europe and Europe needs the Jews" he writes. He thereby
questioned the independency of Jewry as an isolated group in Europe, while
at the same time in a broad context valuing the positive influence of Jewry
on European culture.
The remark that the commission critisizes is: "It can certainly not be
denied, that today Jewry still appears as a closed totality, and as such
many times has intervened in the development of the present situation in a
way that has been less than positive (nichts weniger als g¸nstig) for
Western cultural ideas. But Jewry as such has long since outlived itself,
and has no justification any more within modern life of the peoples, and
that it nevertheless has preserved itself is a mistake of world history,
whose consequences have been inevitable."
The commission establishes that the remark in the quote uses a "too sharp
formulation" to express the actually intended standpoint arguing for
assimilation. The commission: "Today, after Holocaust, this formulation of
course can not any more be considered decent if used. For the commission,
this formulation, if used today, stands out as seriously discriminating in
relation to Jews."
The second remark can be found in a sharp polemic by Steiner in 1897
against the founders of Zionism, Herzl and Norau, in Magazine f¸r
Literatur. He there accused them of exaggerating and misusing the at that
time arising anti-Semitism for their own political goals. The commission
finds that the by Steiner in the essay used formulations, after the trauma
of Holocaust in our time can be experienced as seriously discriminating.
Else, the commission surprisingly finds that Rudolf Steiner and his
contemporaty Theodor Herzl as young intellectuals expressed almost
identical opinions on important themes. They both recommended the
emancipation of the Jews, they both in the beginning regarded the
developing anti-Semitism at the end of the 19th century as not dangerous,
and both were shocked by the Dreyfus affaire and, convinced of his
innocence, immediately and publicly took his side - and later turned out to
be right.
Steiner repeatedly stated his standpoint in the Newsletter published by the
Association in defense against anti-Semitism, among other things in a
series of articles entitled "Versch‰mter Antisemitismus" ("Shamefaced
anti-Semitism"). In the meantime he had realized that the anti-Semitism was
"a danger both for Jews as well as non-Jews" and a "cultural illness"
developing out of a cast of mind "against which one cannot take a clear
enough stand."
In September 1900 he writes: "For me, there has never existed a Jewish
question. My development was always such that I then, when part of the
national studentgroup in Austria became anti-Semitic, that to me appeared
as a derision of all the cultural achievements of the new times. I have
never been able to judge people on the basis of anything else than the
qualities of their personal character."
DETLEF HARDORP
********************************************
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2391.6 ---------------
From: BarbaraWB aol.com
Subject: Re: Electronic Sunshine for Public Waldorf Schools
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 08:05:37 EDT
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In a message dated 6/18/00 12:26:33 PM, danielsabsay pacbell.net writes:
(( I have a modest proposal.
It is now possible to provide a free e-list for every public Waldorf
school in the United States. This would provide the parents and
prospective parents (and ex-parents) of these schools a way to
communicate with each other. This simple facility could go a long way
toward improving the accountability of these schools to the parents and
the community.
Anyone could establish these lists by using one of the new on-line
websites that offer this service for free. Use a consistent naming
convention, so any interested parent can find a particular list just by
knowing the name of the school. Publish the availability of these lists
on the PLANS website as well as by sending periodic messages to the other
SWA lists.
-- Daniel Sabsay, president
East Bay Skeptics Society
www.eb-skeptics.org ))
Fanstastic idea!
Barbara
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2391.7 ---------------
From: "George Aspbury" (aspbury1 worldnet.att.net)
Subject: RE: temperaments
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 07:26:02 -0500
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In-Reply-To: (200006190558.WAA29057 lists1.best.com)
[a recent exchange between paul and jim]
) ) The fact that other school systems (public, parochial,
) ) etc.) use other types of labels to describe types of
) ) children isn't meant to justify the use of the concept
) ) of temperments in the Waldorf schools. I'm not an
) ) educator, just a parent who has been involved in
) ) parochial schools (as a child) and both public and
) ) Waldorf schools (as a parent). And in all settings the
) ) teachers/administration used different types of labels
) ) to describe different types of children. Folks may
) ) bristle at the idea of labelling kids, especially when
) ) your unique, wonderful, individual child is concerned.
) ) But labelling is, in part, a bureaucratic construct.
)
) Yes children are labeled. So are adults. I know
) many people who bristle
) when their children are labled. Yes, in public
) schools labeling is a
) bureaurcratic construct. That is a financial
) issue. But labeling is also
) a means of commuincating about children. Just
) like Waldorf people
) communicate using the language of temperament. I
) think the question here
) is not the utility of labeling but the validity
) of the label.
) )
) ) No temperment is better/worse, more desired/less
) ) desired than another, and school aren't funded based
) ) on the number of certain types of temperments in a
) ) school (yes, I recognize your tongue was in your
) ) cheek).
)
) Partly in cheek. I say partly because some
) temperaments might be more
) difficult to deal with than others and would
) require more resources.
)
It is amazing how similar Waldorf is to all other schools.
I have found very little broad based difference between
Waldorf Schools and public schools.
The use of labels in both Waldorf and public schools can be
seen as a tool for helping the teachers and parents. On the
other hand, the use of labels can have life long
implications. I have heard arguments against the
'temperaments' and against labeling. I have posted before
on the detriments of labeling concerning race and I think
that the same applies here. The use of labels is a natural
way of dealing with the children from the point of view of
the teacher. I imagine that public school teachers are
given child psychology training where they learn types or
labels. In Waldorf training they learn Steiner's
temperaments. There is no difference between the two.
Labeling is a shortcut tool that teachers use in order to
help educate the children as a group.
In the above post it was stated that there is no funding
based on labels/temperaments. Here, in the details, is the
difference between Waldorf and public schools. Public
schools are very much under the pressure of financial
incentive to have children labeled. States are required by
law to provide special services to children with special
needs. This system is important to insure that every Childs
needs are met. The abuse of this system has lead to the
huge increase in children 'diagnosed' with hyperactivity.
These hyper kids bring in more funding for the schools, not
to mention the pharmaceutical companies.
The issue of validity came up in the above post. I don't
feel as though one could judge validity between the Steiner
temperament or the popular-psychology-of-the-day label. In
my book they are equally invalid and detrimental.
Labels, when applied to children, are hard to shake. Often
a quick judgment by a single teacher can follow a child for
life. Parents with children in both public and Waldorf
schools should be aware of the practice of labeling in the
schools and insure that their children know that they are
not a 'label/temperament' but an individual that is loved
and cared for.
By labeling I also mean the use of standardized testing.
Standardized tests may be useful in socialist and communist
countries but have no place in a democratic country.
Dose Waldorf use standardized testing??
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2391.8 ---------------
From: "George Aspbury" (aspbury1 worldnet.att.net)
Subject: RE: Steiner and "Jewish culture"
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 07:45:58 -0500
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) *Most people who have visions, delusions, exhibit
) grandiosity, can lecture
) for hours at a time w/out notes are paranoid, so
) I wouldn't read too much
) accuracy into Steiner's writings as they were
) all, in my opinion, written by
) someone who was insane.
)
) Barbara Bonhiver, M.S.
)
Your opinion is your opinion but you do stand behind your
M.S. so it is safe to assume that 'your opinion' has a
degree of authority behind it. Given, this is an assumptive
evaluation of mine. I would be interested to what degree
you have studied Steiner's writing. You have stated that
you think that Rudolf Steiner was insane. This is a strong
statement to make.
Some questions:
At what point do you feel as though his insanity became
pronounced enough to accurately assess his condition?
Is this assessment based on his writings?
What assessment tools did you use to determine that he was
insane?
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2391.9 ---------------
From: Chand.Desai mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Subject: Re: temperaments
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 08:48:26 -0500
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[Diana]:
)Temperaments were discussed in the faculty *meetings* that I attended over
)three school years, during the "Steiner study" and "child study" portions -
)we read Steiner's writings on temperaments and discussed this in depth.
)Child study takes place every week, and the child's temperament is a central
)question, so I have a good sense of how this concept is applied to
)individual children. I have also discussed the subject with Waldorf
)teachers, in Steiner study groups, listened to it discussed at the Waldorf
)kindergarten teachers conference in 1998, and have read not only Steiner but
)various other Waldorf sources on the temperaments, such as the Waldorf
)kindergarten teachers' newsletter. Finally, I have observed for many hours
)while teachers applied these theories in the classroom.
)
)Hopefully, this will also dispel the next argument that will predictably be
)raised - probably that Waldorf teachers don't actually use this concept
)much, or that some haven't even heard of it. Wait, I forgot about
)"overgeneralizing" - am I overgeneralizing?
Well, didn't I just write that my wife, a Waldorf teacher, uses these concepts a
lot? In your extensive experience with temperaments, did you not observe
teachers trying to work out the best way to reach kids of different personality
types? Or were they all drones, trying to apply seventy-year old orders from
Rudi clay-foot?
Chand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2391.10 ---------------
From: Chand.Desai mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Subject: Re: temperments
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 08:56:04 -0500
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[dan]:
)I, for one, don't attribute nefarious motives to Waldorf teachers,
)you wife included
That is good to hear.
[dan]:
) But in "trying to be a good teacher" she may be
)handicapping herself by following the advice of a guru who knew next
)to nothing about children or education, while claiming that "true
)knowledge of man" was the key to correct educational practices.
My wife doesn't follow the advice of of Rudolf Steiner (I assume this is the
"guru" you refer to) when she teaches her kids. She uses the concept of
temperaments, which as Lisa has pointed out are very much older that Steiner
(archaic, was her word of choice), as a way to think about how to try the next
approach when the old one is not so effective. When she really has a problem,
she calls up teachers she respects or her own mentors. They all have different
advice to offer.
Chand
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2391 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2392 --------------
001 - "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2ga - Re: PS Re Steiner and "jewish culture"
002 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: Dan Dugan and Dr Boyer of Carnegie on Waldorf education
003 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - One more anonymous contributor
004 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Not Down Syndrome at all
005 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: How Steiner gained his expertise in child development and
006 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Dan Dugan and Dr Boyer of Carnegie on Waldorf education
007 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Steiner and "jewish culture"
008 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: How Steiner gained his expertise in child development and
009 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Correction (Re: How Steiner gained his expertise ...)
010 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: PS Re Steiner and "jewish culture"
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2392.1 ---------------
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: Re: PS Re Steiner and "jewish culture"
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 09:59:37 -0400
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was ... that (and I am paraphrasing), they had "outlived" their usefullness,
or purpose. Dan and others can give you the exact quotes. Please also check
the PLANS website for a slew of racially-related quotes from Steiner. In the
archives are many discussions of this issue that took place this past
winter, with Yael Resnick, publisher of Natural Jewish Parenting Magazine,
checking in. (The magazine ran a large feature about whether Waldorf schools
were a good place for Jewish children, and concluded that they are not. I
think the article is available through PLANS. Ask Dan)
-- Lisa
----------
)From: BarbaraWB aol.com
)To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
)Subject: PS Re Steiner and "jewish culture"
)Date: Mon, Jun 19, 2000, 7:47 AM
)
) Re: Detlef and alleged article:
)
) Detlef, quoting Steiner:
)
) (( "Now, I took an interested part in the struggle which the Germans in
) Austria were then carrying on in behalf of their national existence.
)
) Barbara:
)
) Which was, revving up to exterminate the 6 million Jews who were blamed for
) Germany's problems. Rememberl, Mein Kampf was written BEFORE Steiner died.
)
) Detlef continuing re: his "article:"
)
) "I was also led to occupy myself with the _historical_ and _social_ position
) of the Jews."
)
) Barbara:
)
) Which, in Steiner's opinion, was............? ))
)
) Barbara
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2392.2 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Dan Dugan and Dr Boyer of Carnegie on Waldorf education
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 14:51:34 GMT
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[Sune:]
)You mean Ernest L. Boyer (1928-1995), former long-time President of the
)Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching as an authority on
)education in general or on waldorf education?
)
)http://www.summerfieldwaldorf.org/philosop.htm when searching
)more for Ernest Boyer.
Thanks, Sune, this link was very instructive. This is a page from the
website of the Summerfield Waldorf School in Santa Rosa, Ca. The page on
which Boyer is quoted praising Waldorf's "philosophy" is actually titled
"Philosophy." This is the "philosophy" Waldorf wants the public to know
about, and it's not surprising it's easy to get outside experts to agree
with it.
There's nothing there *anyone* seeking a well-rounded education for their
child could possibly disagree with; but the word "anthroposophy" is not
mentioned, let alone temperaments, reincarnation and karma, etheric/astral
bodies, etc. Anthroposophy is like the elephant in the Waldorf living room
that everybody sees but nobody will talk about (publicly, unless forced).
After a brief note about the historical origins of Waldorf, the page reads:
"A system that recognizes and meets the need for strong development of the
intellect, Waldorf is committed to excellence in all basic academic skills.
It provides a full introduction to the classics, foreign languages, history,
geography, mathematics, science . . . the subjects today's child needs as a
foundation for tomorrow's complex and challenging civilization."
I think this is dishonest to begin with - stating "strong development of the
intellect" first - that is *not* their stress in practice; they feel the
intellect is the *last* thing, not the first, that should be developed. I
guess it is stated that way to answer concerns parents may have because
they've heard Waldorf is artsy and doesn't stress academics.
continuing -
"Even though every Waldorf school is independent, all share a core of
curriculum, methods and beliefs, including the idea that a fulfilled and
creative life involves considerably more than mental development or the
ability to earn a living. Important as these things are, every child also
needs the balance provided by strong and healthy development in the life of
will (the ability to get things done) and in the life of feeling (emotions,
aesthetics, social sensitivity).
Waldorf's time-tested pedagogy is designed to address the whole child: head,
heart, and hands [bold in original]. It stimulates the mind with the full
spectrum of traditional academic subjects. It nurtures healthy emotional
development by conveying knowledge experientially as well as academically.
And it works with the hands throughout every day, both in primary academics
and in a broad range of artistic handwork and craft activities.
Waldorf schools strive to awaken and ennoble capacities, rather than to
merely impose intellectual content on the child. Learning becomes much more
than the acquisition of quantities of information . . . learning becomes an
engaging voyage of discovery of the world, and of oneself.
A Waldorf Education is meant to be the beginning of a lifelong love of
learning."
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2392.3 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: One more anonymous contributor
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 17:32:56 +0200
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References: (200006182011.NAA04880 lists1.best.com)
Dan Dugan wrote:
) Our European correspondent writes ...
Who is this interesting anonymous European correspondent? And is there any
special reason for him or her to be anonymous on this list, only appear
through you and not speak for him- or herself?
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2392.4 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Not Down Syndrome at all
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 17:32:47 +0200
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Lisa Ercolano wrote:
) No disrespect intended to Sune for what he wrote regarding Rudolf Steiner's
) experience in teaching children.
As Detlef pointed out, it was he, not me, who wrote what you here comment
on.
) But to my knowledge (a variety of books, in English, by and about Steiner),
) the Viennese child he tutored did NOT have Down Syndrome.
As Detlef commented you are correct.
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2392.5 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: How Steiner gained his expertise in child development and education
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 17:37:24 +0200
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References: (200006181105.EAA03646 lists1.best.com) (200006190324.UAA03386 lists1.best.com) (200006190454.VAA07601 lists1.best.com)
Gary Bonhiver wrote, quoting from the Steiner's autobiography (CML in Dan
Dugans terminology) The story of my life, that can be found in full online
(still unedited though) at
http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Books/tcoml.index.html as a subsection to
http://www.elib.com/Steiner/Books/index.php3
The later section links to fulltext versions of 8 titles in English of
written works in some form by Steiner.
Gary:
) Why is it that when I perform a search on "Hamerling" or
) "Homunculus" at either the Steiner Press web site or the
) Steiner E.LIB site (or via many general internet search
) engines) that they turn up *nothing* in print regarding
) Steiner's reviews? Steiner himself says that he wrote a
) paper...why can't I find it in the official Steiner archives?
) Was it embarassing to Anthroposophy?
Steiner's collected published works comprise in the order of 89 000 pages.
The essay you search for constitutes 1/100 000 of this work. _Very_ little
of his works, of which his in different form written works comprise ca 45
titles still can be found at the Internet, as the copyrights to his works
only recently expired. It's still a books world.
) Only a short bio of Hamerling came up at Steiner ELIB, in which the following was stated...
)
) "In 1888 his Homunculus appeared, and was reviewed with extensive comment by Rudolf Steiner."
)
) Please note: "extensive comment by Steiner...." Where is it? Can someone please provide a link to a site that has published this paper either online or in print?
In German it seems to have been published in Gesammelte Aufs‰tze zur
Literatur 1884 - 1902, part II of III (556 pages in total) GesamtAusgabe
(GA) nr 32. I doubt it has been translated. But I may be wrong (but only on
_this_ point of course ... };-)))) ).
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2392.6 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Dan Dugan and Dr Boyer of Carnegie on Waldorf education
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 17:40:28 +0200
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References: (200006161807.LAA27060 lists1.best.com)
(200006170637.XAA25778 lists1.best.com)
(200006171217.FAA00155 lists1.best.com) (200006171842.LAA27782 lists1.best.com)
Dan Dugan wrote:
) )One may find it interesting and logically puzzling that someone who knew
) )"next to nothing about children and education" could lay the basis for
) )something in the form of today maybe 800 waldorf schools worldwide that
) )leads the director of the Carnegie Foundation for Education to such a
) )conclusion.
)
) This doesn't follow logically. Just because something is popular and
) has prestigious supporters doesn't mean it's good.
In the very great majority of instances in life, they are not a question of
simple logic, but a question of judgement. To this belongs considering to
_some_ extent who says something. And Ernest Boyer is not any "prestigious"
supporter.
Searching for +Ernest +Boyer +waldorf +education in different combindaions
on different search engines turns up a number of pages (31 with Altavista
for all four) on the Internet, a number of them with some form of the quote
mentioned before, but also a number of other sites:
http://zephyrpress.com/cabc.html
http://www.woodrow.org/boyer/
http://www.boyercenter.org/
and sites like http://newhorizons.org/ofc_cabcoddl6.html with an Address to
the Council of Elementary Principals Meeting Boston, MA Public Schools May
18, 1995 by Eric Oddleifson, Chairman of a Center for the Arts in the Basic
Curriculum with a number of quotes:
One more by Ernest Boyer:
One of the strengths of the Waldorf curriculum is its emphasis on the arts
and the rich use of the spoken word through poetry and storytelling. The
way the lessons integrate traditional subject matter is, to my knowledge,
unparalleled. Those in the public school reform movement have some
important things to learn from what Waldorf educators have been doing for
many years. It is an enormously impressive effort toward quality education.
Thomas Armstrong, author of Multiple Intelligences in the Classroom:
Waldorf education embodies in a truly organic sense all of Howard Gardner's
seven intelligences. Rudolph Steiner's vision is a whole one, not simply an
amalgam of the seven intelligences. Many schools are currently attempting
to construct curricula based on Gardner's model simply through an additive
process (what can we add to what we have already got?). Steiner's approach,
however, was to begin with a deep inner vision of the child and the child's
needs and build a curriculum around that vision.
and Robert S. Peterkin, Director of Urban Superintendents Program, Harvard
Graduate School of Education and former Superintendent of Milwaukee Public
Schools:
Waldorf is healing education . . . It is with a sense of adventure that the
staff of Milwaukee Public Schools embraces the Waldorf concept in an urban
multicultural setting. It is clear that Waldorf principles are in concert
with our goals for educating all children.
Ernets Boyer was Chancellor of the 64-campus system of the State University
of New York, U.S. Commissioner of Education under President Jimmy Carter
http://www.technos.net/journal/volume4/3boyer.htm and 10/14/94 was honored
by President Clinton as one of that years recipients National Medal of the
Arts and the Charles Frankel Prize
http://lab.pava.purdue.edu/pol101/Exercises/Ex09/events.html
Boyer stands out as one of the most respected figures in education in the
USA until his untimely and totally unexpected death in 1995. I don't find
it reasonable that such a personality only bases his opinions on nothing
and somehow have the impression, that is: I think, that his expressed and
in different forms documented opinions hint at a degree of personal
knowledge and experience of waldorf education beyond reading brochures
about it.
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2392.7 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Steiner and "jewish culture"
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:19:07 +0200
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References: (200006191144.EAA19099 lists1.best.com)
BarbaraWB aol.com wrote:
) What does this anecdote have to do with JEWISH CULTURE? I thought your
) article was about Steiner and Jewish Culture. This is a story - from
) Steiner's autobiography, nonetheless* - about his living with a family.
As can be seen in Detlef's posting (Sun, 18 Jun 2000 13:03:26 +0100), the
text he had written and refers to (http://www.waldorf.net/judentum.htm) is
about Waldorf Education and Jewish Culture, not Steiner and Jewish culture.
For that, see an earlier posting today (Mon, 19 Jun 2000 14:01:58 +0200)
with a translation of a contribution by Detlef on 13 May to TAZ
(Tageszeitung)
http://www.taz.de/tpl/2000/05/13.nf/text?Tname=a0154&list=TAZ_txt&idx=98
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2392.8 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: How Steiner gained his expertise in child development and education
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:45:07 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (200006181105.EAA03646 lists1.best.com) (200006190324.UAA03386 lists1.best.com)
Gary Bonhiver wrote:
) Did your paper about Waldorf Education and Jewish
) Culture mention this serious rift between Steiner
) and this Jewish family?
)From Detlef I've been informed that he also wrote the following for the
summarizing posting, before cutting it short:
A certain sentence Steiner wrote in a literary review of Hamerling's piece
"Homunkulus" offended the father in the family, Ladislaus Specht, who
experienced this sentence - it has been discussed on this list a while
back, with nobody having the foggiest of the context - as antisemitic. He
did not, however, experience Steiner as antisemitic at all (he knew him
pretty well, since Steiner actually lived with the family and regularly
went on vacations with the extended Specht family for about 6 years). They
never resolved the issue philosophically, but agreed to remain the best of
friends nonetheless.
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2392.9 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Correction (Re: How Steiner gained his expertise ...)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 20:18:37 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (200006181105.EAA03646 lists1.best.com) (200006190324.UAA03386 lists1.best.com) (200006190454.VAA07601 lists1.best.com) (200006191542.IAA01492 lists1.best.com)
I wrote:
) The essay you search for constitutes 1/100 000 of this work.
Sorry, it should of course have been probably ca. 1/10 000.
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2392.10 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: PS Re Steiner and "jewish culture"
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:13:16 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (200006191410.HAA24695 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200006191410.HAA24695 lists1.best.com)
Lisa wrote,
)...Yael Resnick, publisher of Natural Jewish Parenting Magazine,
)checking in. (The magazine ran a large feature about whether Waldorf schools
)were a good place for Jewish children, and concluded that they are not. I
)think the article is available through PLANS. Ask Dan)
It's going to be on the web site as soon as we get the text files
from Yael. In the meantime purchase copies from her at
(njpmail pop.mindspring.com).
-Dan Dugan
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2392 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2393 --------------
001 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Dan Dugan and Dr Boyer of Carnegie on Waldorf education
002 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: How Steiner gained his expertise in child development and
003 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: One more anonymous contributor
004 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: temperments
005 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: PS Re Steiner and "jewish culture"
006 - paul c (ptc712 yahoo.com) - Re: PS Re Steiner and "jewish culture"
007 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: How Steiner gained his expertise in child development and
008 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: One more anonymous contributor
009 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Dan Dugan and Dr Boyer of Carnegie on Waldorf education
010 - Detlef Hardorp (hardorp g - Re: Steiner and "jewish culture"
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2393.1 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Dan Dugan and Dr Boyer of Carnegie on Waldorf education
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:25:52 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
References: (200006161807.LAA27060 lists1.best.com)
(200006170637.XAA25778 lists1.best.com)
(200006171217.FAA00155 lists1.best.com)
(200006171842.LAA27782 lists1.best.com)
(200006191542.IAA01520 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200006191542.IAA01520 lists1.best.com)
Sune, you quoted Ernest Boyer,
)Steiner's approach,
)however, was to begin with a deep inner vision of the child and the child's
)needs and build a curriculum around that vision.
Meep, meep meep! New Age BS alarm! Whenever you see that word "deep"
you know the person doesn't necessarily know what they are talking
about, all you know is that they -feel- strongly about it.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2393.2 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: How Steiner gained his expertise in child development and
education
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:02:18 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (200006181105.EAA03646 lists1.best.com)
(200006190324.UAA03386 lists1.best.com)
(200006191206.FAA24013 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200006191206.FAA24013 lists1.best.com)
Sune, you wrote,
)The second remark can be found in a sharp polemic by Steiner in 1897
)against the founders of Zionism, Herzl and Norau, in Magazine f¸r
)Literatur. He there accused them of exaggerating and misusing the at that
)time arising anti-Semitism for their own political goals. The commission
)finds that the by Steiner in the essay used formulations, after the trauma
)of Holocaust in our time can be experienced as seriously discriminating.
What did he say?
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2393.3 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: One more anonymous contributor
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:19:21 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (200006182011.NAA04880 lists1.best.com)
(200006191542.IAA01432 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200006191542.IAA01432 lists1.best.com)
Sune, you wrote,
) ) Our European correspondent writes ...
)
)Who is this interesting anonymous European correspondent? And is there any
)special reason for him or her to be anonymous on this list, only appear
)through you and not speak for him- or herself?
Always prying, hmm, Sune? Think you can silence that voice? Some of
our correspondents prefer not to be identified. Some have
relationships to Waldorf schools, like having children in them, that
would become difficult if it were known that they were discussing the
shortcomings of Waldorf. I remember not long ago someone's coming out
here resulted in a call to their school.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2393.4 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: temperments
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:09:43 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (200006191400.HAA21886 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200006191400.HAA21886 lists1.best.com)
Chand, you wrote,
)My wife doesn't follow the advice of of Rudolf Steiner (I assume this is the
)"guru" you refer to) when she teaches her kids. She uses the concept of
)temperaments, which as Lisa has pointed out are very much older that Steiner
)(archaic, was her word of choice), as a way to think about how to try the next
)approach when the old one is not so effective. When she really has
)a problem,
)she calls up teachers she respects or her own mentors. They all
)have different
)advice to offer.
Sounds like denial to me, Chand, trying to say that a Waldorf teacher
isn't following Steiner.
[Q]"But your teachers hold these views?
[A]"Of course. How else would it be a Waldorf school in the way I
have indicated? But there is one thing I must make quite clear about
this. It is not a matter of if they will subscribe to Steiner's views
then they can become teachers in a Waldorf school, but because they
have come quite independently to make those views their own they want
to teach in a Waldorf school. You see, there's a great difference
between just applying a method, and understanding and going along
with the philosophy that makes that method possible. Many people
think Waldof is just a method, another way of doing things; but it is
much more than that. It is another way of doing things because there
is a whole new philosophy of life and man behind it. If that
philosophy is not the philosophy of the teachers, then it is not a
Waldorf school."
[Howard, Alan. You Wanted to Know... WHAT A WALDORF SCHOOL IS... And
What It Is Not. Spring Valley, NY: St. George Publications, 1983, p.
4]
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2393.5 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: PS Re Steiner and "jewish culture"
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 23:20:13 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (200006191410.HAA24695 lists1.best.com)
Lisa Ercolano wrote:
) was ... that (and I am paraphrasing), they had "outlived" their usefullness,
) or purpose. Dan and others can give you the exact quotes.
For the exact quote and context of this remark by the 27 year old Steiner,
that also the commission, appointed by the Dutch Anthroposophical society
criticizes, see the posting earlier today at 14:01:58 +0200.
) Please also check
) the PLANS website for a slew of racially-related quotes from Steiner.
See the summary by the Dutch commission at
http://www.info3.de/aktuell/news/aktuell0400e(gb).html
As for the quality of the article by Staudenmaier, already the first three
paragraphs in a nutshell shows the "quality" of the article.
Staudenmaier:
"In June 1910 Rudolf Steiner, the founder of anthroposophy, began a
speaking tour of Norway with a lecture to a large and attentive audience in
Oslo."
Comment:
This is untrue. He did not start a lecture tour of Norway. He started a
lecture series in Oslo.
Staudenmaier:
"In the Oslo lecture and throughout his Norwegian tour Steiner presented
his theory of "national souls" (Volksseelen in German, Steiner's native
tongue) and paid particular attention to the mysterious wonders of the
"Nordic spirit"."
Comment:
In the context of the article, and on this list, this series of lectures is
and has been put forth as something that should show that Steiner considers
a German race to be superior to every other race, and that that is the
essence of the lecture series. That is also completely untrue.
During his life, Steiner on different occations in books and lectures dealt
with a great part of the discussed themes of his time. In the lecture
series Steiner systematically treated one of the themes that dominated part
of the intellectual discussion from the last part of the last century up to
after the middle of this century, giving a sketch ot the psychology of
peoples, as it can be seen from the perspective of anthroposophy within the
conceptual framework of a more broad perspective of man and the spiritual
world.
In the lecture series, he described how what, from the last part of the
19th century and into the middle of this century, in the Western world was
described as the five main races of mankind, had developed far back in what
probably was the Tertiary epoch, how they in our present time are ever more
losing their importance and how they in the future will cease to exist. He
also described how nationality will ever more lose its importance in the
future and how Nordic mythology in the character of Vidar points to Christ,
supporting that in man which is _independent_ of race, nationality and
gender, in the future development of mankind.
_That_ is the essence of the Nordic mythology, according to Steiner in the
lecture series, _not_ a superiority of anyone over anyone else on the basis
of any "racial" characteristics.
Staudenmaier:
"The "national souls" of Northern and Central Europe were, Steiner
explained, components of the "germanic-nordic sub-race," the world's most
spiritually advanced ethnic group, which was in turn the vanguard of the
highest of five historical "root races." This superior fifth root race,
Steiner told his Oslo audience, was naturally the "Aryan race."
Comment:
Also this shows the carelessness with which the author concocts his soup,
which he wrote under time stress, lacking more direct sources and
understanding of the theme he was writing on, as it also turned out in his
discussions on the list with other people, like Detlef Hardorp and Sean
Slovan.
On 07-Mar-2000 20:03:54 there was a discussion on this question of "Aryan"
and "root races" on this list:
**************************************
**************************************
Dan Dugan wrote (26 Feb):
Tom:
) )The concept of root-races is strictly a theosophical, NOT an
) )anthroposophical one!
) )Rudolf Steiner did NOT use the term after having parted with the
) )theosophical society. To get it straight: how often does he use the term
) )in his book "Occult Science" where he describes the cultures in the most
) )elaborate way?
) )I don't think any critic will answer, because again it would be too
) )embarassing to do so.
Dan:
) He changed the terminology, not the concept. You've chosen to ignore
) the quotes that prove this.
Me:
No, Tom does not ignore it. I know you must have loads of postings to scan.
But you seem to have missed what I posted two days before this posting (26
Feb) by you, showing Steiner not only changed the terminology, but also
understanding of the subject.
According to Steiner, (see below) 'The concept of race in a proper sense
was only useful at the old Atlantis. Therefore we have, as we count with a
real evolution of humanity, not used the concept of race for the
post-Atlantean time' and 'one has to overcome this child disease and become
clear about that the concept of race ceases to have any meaning/importance
specifically in our time'.
According to Steiner (as that is what is discussed here), during the
development following the cultural epochs we presently experience, all talk
of 'races' will have become completly meaningless to talk about.
******************************
Steiner (1909) on the importance of overcoming that which is racial (II)
Datum: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 02:30:55
Rudolf Steiner:
'The concept of race in a proper sense was only useful at the old Atlantis.
Therefore we have, as we count with a real evolution of humanity, not used
the concept of race for the post-Atlantean time. We don't speak of an
Indian race and so on, as it isn't proper any more. We speak of an Old
Indian cultural epoch, of an Old Persian cultural epoch and so on.
It would have completely no sense if we were to speak of that we in our
time were preparing for a sixth 'race'. If we in our time still see remains
of the old Atlantean differences, remaining old group soulishness, so that
you still can speak of a differentiation into races - what is preparing
itself for the sixth epoch consists specifically in getting rid of and
leaving behind that which is 'racial character'. That is the important
thing.
Therefore it is necessary, that that movement that is called the
anthroposophical movement, that prepares for the sixth epoch in its basic
character takes up especially this task of getting rid of that which
related to 'racial character' and to unite people of all races, of all
nations and in this way bridging this differentiation, these differences,
this abyss, that exists between different groups of people. Because that
which are old racial points of view has a physical character, and that
which will develop into the future has a spiritual character.
That is the reason it is so urgently necessary that our anthroposophical
movement is a spiritual movement, that looks at that which is spiritual and
overcomes specifically that which is based on physical differences out of
the force of this spirituality. It is completely understandable that every
movement has its child diseases and that one at the beginning of the
theosophical movement described what it is about as if the evolution of the
Earth so to speak was diferrentiated into seven epochs - they were called
'main races' (root races My comment. S.N.) - and that every 'root race' was
differentiated into seven 'sub-races', and that everything would repeat
itself that way for ever, so that you for ever could speak of seven 'races'
and seven 'sub-races'. But one has to overcome this child disease and
become clear about that the concept of race ceases to have any
meaning/importance specifically in our time'
Something else is preparing itself - something that in the most eminent
sense has to do with the human individuality - the ever more increasing
individualisation of man. What it is about is that this development of the
individuality is supported in the right way, and the anthroposophical
movement has to support this development of individuality in man in the
right way.'
4 December 1909, in: The deeper secrets of the development of humanity in
the light of the gospels (GA 117)
***********************************
Dan:
) All Waldorf schools, including the publicly funded ones, teach the
) exact sequence of sub-races of the Aryan root-race that Blavatsky and
) Steiner laid out. Other ancient history programs do not.
Waldorf schools don't teach about 'sub'races'. They also as a rule don't
teach about 'root races' in any other way than as Plato describing
something about a mythical culture called 'Atlantis', west of the Pillars
of Heracles at Gibraltar, giving a Solon via Dropides and Critias as
source. Using Steiner as source for teaching something in the lower classes
about it that can not be documented from other sources, as has been done in
some cases, is, I think, undefendable.
Waldorf schools describe a number of basic cultures that seem to follow a
pattern, from the last glacial epoch up to our present time in a way that
somewhat corresponds to the inner development of children at different
ages, not very different from the way I was taught history during my time
in school during the 50s'-60s' (a completely non-waldorf school). In the
upper classes, at the latest, at least also all other more important
cultures too should be treated.
The first two of these cultures are more mythological and normally (in
non-waldorf schools) maybe not much pointed to, as they are so sparsely
documented. In general, I find that they can be qualitatively described as
sequential. As I tried to show partly in a posting on 29 Feb (23:07 on
Jewish wisdom) I think the sequence of the cultures
Egyptian-Chaldean-Babylonean, Greek-Roman, and finally the Western European
dominated culture developing since the end of the Middle Ages can be rather
well documented as a basic sequence, as also in their timing as 'cultural
epochs'.
So, I think you're basically wrong on all points in your answer to Tom.
Regards,
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
**************************************
**************************************
) In the
) archives are many discussions of this issue that took place this past
) winter, with Yael Resnick, publisher of Natural Jewish Parenting Magazine,
) checking in. (The magazine ran a large feature about whether Waldorf schools
) were a good place for Jewish children, and concluded that they are not. I
) think the article is available through PLANS. Ask Dan)
With all due respect to Yael, as far as I remember what she wrote after I
entered this list in February, her main problem was that the waldorf
schools did not put the Jewish perspective, but a more generally human
perspective at the centre of the education, and she wanted a school for her
child or children, that put the Jewish perspective in the centre for them.
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2393.6 ---------------
From: paul c (ptc712 yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: PS Re Steiner and "jewish culture"
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 14:44:34 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Interesting. The main teacher in my daughter's
kindergarten class is Jewish and has been involved
with Waldorf for a decade or longer. About one-quarter
of the kids in the class has at least one parent who
is Jewish. (I don't know every parent's religious
affiliation.) One of the new parents expressed concern
at the beginning of the year about some of the lyrics
of one of the songs they were using in the class; I
apologize, I can't remember the song or the lyric. The
concern had to do with a perceived anti-semitic slant
to the lyric.
This parent's concerns were alliviated--he became one
of the more active parents this year.
The teacher seamlessly incorporated various Jewish
festivals into the classroom celebratiosn and
observances this year.
So, while the discussion as to the suitability of the
curriculum to members of a particular faith (or
nonfaith) is an important one which must contionue,
it's also important to recognize that the curriculum
is adaptable to the needs/desires of a given
community.
Paul
--- Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com) wrote:
) Lisa wrote,
)
) )...Yael Resnick, publisher of Natural Jewish
) Parenting Magazine,
) )checking in. (The magazine ran a large feature
) about whether Waldorf schools
) )were a good place for Jewish children, and
) concluded that they are not. I
) )think the article is available through PLANS. Ask
) Dan)
)
) It's going to be on the web site as soon as we get
) the text files
) from Yael. In the meantime purchase copies from her
) at
) (njpmail pop.mindspring.com).
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2393.7 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: How Steiner gained his expertise in child development and
education
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 23:51:44 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (200006181105.EAA03646 lists1.best.com)
(200006190324.UAA03386 lists1.best.com)
(200006191206.FAA24013 lists1.best.com) (200006192122.OAA12558 lists1.best.com)
Dan Dugan wrote:
) What did he say?
Ain't got no idea and I don't have the report by the commission either.
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2393.8 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: One more anonymous contributor
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 23:49:59 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (200006182011.NAA04880 lists1.best.com)
(200006191542.IAA01432 lists1.best.com) (200006192122.OAA12564 lists1.best.com)
Dan Dugan wrote:
) Always prying, hmm, Sune? Think you can silence that voice? Some of
) our correspondents prefer not to be identified. Some have
) relationships to Waldorf schools, like having children in them, that
) would become difficult if it were known that they were discussing the
) shortcomings of Waldorf. I remember not long ago someone's coming out
) here resulted in a call to their school.
I fully accept any reasonable reason for not appearing with one's own name
on this list. But you avoid the question; is there such a reason, and what
is it?
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2393.9 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Dan Dugan and Dr Boyer of Carnegie on Waldorf education
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:06:07 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (200006161807.LAA27060 lists1.best.com)
(200006170637.XAA25778 lists1.best.com)
(200006171217.FAA00155 lists1.best.com)
(200006171842.LAA27782 lists1.best.com)
(200006191542.IAA01520 lists1.best.com) (200006192122.OAA12533 lists1.best.com)
Dan Dugan wrote:
) Sune, you quoted Ernest Boyer,
)
) )Steiner's approach,
) )however, was to begin with a deep inner vision of the child and the child's
) )needs and build a curriculum around that vision.
)
) Meep, meep meep! New Age BS alarm! Whenever you see that word "deep"
) you know the person doesn't necessarily know what they are talking
) about, all you know is that they -feel- strongly about it.
No. The quote isn't from Boyer. As can be seen in my posting, it's from
Thomas Armstrong, author of Multiple Intelligences in the Classroom.
And sometimes you for a time lack words that adequately express your
impression and understanding, when trying to grasp anthroposophy, like many
things in life. "Feeling" in some sense normally is the first form of
understanding of most things in life. Given the complexity of
anthroposophy, the word "deep" is probably adequate in the quote.
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2393.10 ---------------
From: Detlef Hardorp (hardorp gmx.net)
Subject: Re: Steiner and "jewish culture"
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:27:05 +0100
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BarbaraWB aol.com asks on Mon, 19 Jun 2000 07:42:14 EDT
Barbara Bonhiver, M.S.:
)What does this anecdote have to do with JEWISH CULTURE? I thought your
article was about Steiner and Jewish Culture. This is a story - from
Steiner's autobiography, nonetheless* - about his living with a family.
I suggest you follow the thread. Dan Dugan asked a question that had nothing to do with Jewish culture. I answered this question by refering to the fact that Steiner worked as an educator in a Jewish family. Got it?
- Detlef Hardorp, Ph.D.
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2393 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2394 --------------
001 - Detlef Hardorp (hardorp g - Re: How Steiner gained his expertise in child development and
002 - Detlef Hardorp (hardorp g - Re. =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=10?= PS Re Steiner and "jewish culture"
003 - Detlef Hardorp (hardorp g - Berlin Waldorf school and Wacker
004 - Detlef Hardorp (hardorp g - Homunkulus
005 - Detlef Hardorp (hardorp g - Re: from akdh's forum: Latin American Waldorf Germano-centric
006 - "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2ga - What's the answer to ? #2?
007 - "Jim Staffnik" (staffnik - Re: temperaments
008 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: temperaments
009 - BarbaraWB aol.com - RE: Treasure trove in Whitehead
010 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Dan Dugan and Dr Boyer of Carnegie on Waldorf education
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2394.1 ---------------
From: Detlef Hardorp (hardorp gmx.net)
Subject: Re: How Steiner gained his expertise in child development and educ
ation
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:27:13 +0100
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Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodWinter.com) asks on Sun, 18 Jun 2000 23:24:04 -0400
)Did your paper about Waldorf Education and Jewish Culture mention this serious rift between Steiner and this Jewish family?
It mentions the disagreement between Steiner and Ladislaus Specht in some detail. But it is incorrect to speak of a "serious rift". For one, there were no problems for Pauline Specht (the mother). Furthermore, there was also no "serious rift" between Steiner and Ladislaus Specht. After Steiner went on to do other things, Ladislaus Specht writes a letter to Steiner on October 9, 1890. He says he's in a bad mood, due to an ailment from which he is just recovering. He then proceeds to praise Steiner's work in the highest tones and proposes to continue in "true friendship".
- Detlef Hardorp
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From: Detlef Hardorp (hardorp gmx.net)
Subject: Re. =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=10?= PS Re Steiner and "jewish culture"
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:27:01 +0100
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From: BarbaraWB aol.com psed on
Mon, 19 Jun 2000 07:47:36 EDT
)Re: Detlef and alleged article:
)Detlef, quoting Steiner:
)(( "Now, I took an interested part in the struggle which the Germans in
Austria were then carrying on in behalf of their national existence.
)Barbara:
)Which was, revving up to exterminate the 6 million Jews who were blamed for
Germany's problems. Rememberl, Mein Kampf was written BEFORE Steiner died.
Totally off the mark. Steiner grew up in an area of the Hungarian part of Austria during a certain period of his life. He had a totally Hungarian history instruction there: German culture, history and literature were simply ignored. He was part of a cultural minority there and advocated a more cosmopolitan approach to things.
Steiner is talking about Austria in the 1870 - 90's. I don't believe that Hitler was already writing his "Kampf" - nor did he speak of the self-determination of cultures in that book. Steiner wanted diversity without one culture supressing another. Clearly, Hitler wanted the opposite.
- Detlef Hardorp
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From: Detlef Hardorp (hardorp gmx.net)
Subject: Berlin Waldorf school and Wacker
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:27:17 +0100
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)Our European correspondent writes:
)Here are two more articles, this time from the Berliner Zeitung, about that
same school in Berlin. Berliner Zeitung is a major newspaper in East-Berlin.
DH: East-Berlin? Hey, the wall came down over a decade ago! It's now a paper in _Berlin_.
)I think this was not the end of the story: I believe Wacker is no longer
with the school.
DH: Correct. He was fired. It wasn't so easy to fire him, as there had been no financial irregularites in the school. He had collected loans and given them to some mysterious Swiss investor, who supposedly promised to make it grow rather a bit more quickly than the business managers in the region were willing to believe. When Wacker refused to give any details, he had to resign from the board of the school and was eventually fired from his job. The Waldorf schools don't need any financial wizards working in the dark.
Wacker paid back most of the money. Some parents also agreed to leave their money with Wacker, so the school ended up not being involved. Still, the whole affair left a nasty aftertaste. It was generally thought that it had been a mistake to let Wacker play a bigger role in that school at all.
But then, he did get it off the ground and did invest a lot of very fruitful work. He didn't know how to let go when the time was ripe. I see it as a personal tragedy for the man. It was obviously a risk working with him. It's always easier being clever with hindsight.
) It would be interesting to know what that school's
student fluctuation was after these incidents.
Hardly any fluctuation. There were a lot of meetings long into the night and a new, more competent board was elected (this is where the real problem had been, not the school) - which kept everybody well informed about everything and was also up front with everything. This was much appreciated, and the problems are now history. The article was written in 1998! Not quite real time here, folks ...
The Steiner Waldorf schools were also in the papers everywhere in Berlin when they rented the Philharmonic Hall to celebrate 70 years of Waldorf Education in Berlin in 1998. Also when a senior teacher at the Rudolf Steiner School got the "Bundesverdienstkreuz" (medal of honour) for his achievements.
But only bad news is good news here. "Critical" seems to mean: collect all the bad news, ignore the rest. When I was young, critical thinking was to be used to get a balanced view of things ...
- Detlef Hardorp
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From: Detlef Hardorp (hardorp gmx.net)
Subject: Homunkulus
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:27:09 +0100
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Gary Bonhiver (Gary GoodWinter.com) asks under the
Subject: Re: How Steiner gained his expertise in child development and education
on Mon, 19 Jun 2000 00:50:33 -0400
)Why is it that when I perform a search on "Hamerling" or "Homunculus" at either the Steiner Press web site or the Steiner E.LIB site (or via many general internet search engines) that they turn up *nothing* in print regarding Steiner's reviews? Steiner himself says that he wrote a paper...why can't I find it in the official Steiner archives? Was it embarrassing to Anthroposophy?
All of Steiner's literary reviews were published long ago. So long ago, in fact, that the one with the Homunculus article is out of print. You can find it in its entirety, however, at
www.perseus.ch, it's a file ending in rst_GA32_hamerling.html (sorry, it's too late to look for the exact URL now, I'm sure you'll find it, if not, I'll look it up later). In print, you will have to find a copy of volume 32 of Steiner's collected works.
How about somebody translating the whole review? It's interesting in and of itself. The sentence everybody pounced upon should at least be read with the sentence preceding it. That doesn't make all the problems go away - the sentence clearly remains problematic - but it does add a bit of context. I'll distance myself form this sentence at any time of day and night - if anybody cares. More interesting is the context within Steiner's thinking. I wrote about that in my taz article, which Sune has kindly translated. Steiner was of the opinion that the role of traditions - be they Christian, Jewish, or whatever - was largely over. When the individual comes of age, he does just that - and submits to no higher authorites. You don't have to seperate Steiner from the Church or from religions - he did that himself in no uncertain terms. As he got older, he toned down his criticism of traditional religious values. He remained true to his conviction, however, that the modern form!
of religion is for everybody to find the religious dimension in themselves in complete freedom - or also to not find it. His defintion of this religious dimension was rather broad, however: it essentially boils down to being in tune with yourself and with the world.
In this sense, Steiner Waldorf is religious: it tries to educate children who are in tune with themselves and with the world.
)Why had it so enraged Steiner's Jewish "friends"?
Only Ladislaus Specht. Singular, and without quotation marks.
)Thanks!
At your service!
- Detlef Hardor
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2394.5 ---------------
From: Detlef Hardorp (hardorp gmx.net)
Subject: Re: from akdh's forum: Latin American Waldorf Germano-centric in 6
0s
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:27:22 +0100
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DD:
)Here's an intriguing entry from AKdH's forum, translated by our European correspondent.
DH: Who is this "European correspondent"?
I know, somebody who has an aunt who has a cousin with children in a Waldorf school. For fear of reprisals, he must remain anonymous ...
) The entry was posted anonymously on May 25th.
)Thirty years ago, I worked at a Waldorf school in Latin America. ...
Thirty years ago ... The throngs of the anthro-cult are so vicious, they will claw you if you utter a word of dissent even 30 years later! Anybody who knows anthroposophists know that they are always in total agreement on everything - typical cult behaviour.
Editor's note: the previous paragraph was sarcastic.
How about starting a web page about the practices of Waldorf critics, with lots of anonymous contributions - because you never can be sure, PLANS might sue you!
Seriously, folks: I've had enough of this anonymous stuff. Sure, I can see that _sometimes_ someone might want to remain anonymous. AKdH is full of allegations with only anonymous backing!
Paul Spiegel, head of the German Jewish Committee, was on a talkshow a while back. There he also mentioned anonymous mail he gets. You can imagine the content. His way of dealing with it: straight into the trash bin. A wise idea.
I don't plan to discuss this topic on this list any further - I've stated my opinion and will take this approach. So: no further comment.
- Detlef Hardor
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2394.6 ---------------
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: What's the answer to ? #2?
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 23:34:38 -0400
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I am eagerly awaiting the answer to "Know Your Steiner #2":
((Which profession is particularly suited for mentally inferior people?))
Dan, has anyone offered the correct -- or any -- answer?
-- Lisa Ercolano
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From: "Jim Staffnik" (staffnik cybertrails.com)
Subject: Re: temperaments
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:00:43 -0700
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----------
) From: George Aspbury (aspbury1 worldnet.att.net)
) To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
) Subject: RE: temperaments
) Date: Monday, June 19, 2000 5:26 AM
)
) George,
)
)
) It is amazing how similar Waldorf is to all other schools.
) I have found very little broad based difference between
) Waldorf Schools and public schools.
I think there is a big broad based difference between public schools and
Waldorf schools.
)
) The use of labels in both Waldorf and public schools can be
) seen as a tool for helping the teachers and parents.
This is true.
On the
) other hand, the use of labels can have life long
) implications.
This is also true but in regular public schools the intent is to educate
out of the label. In other words the intent is for special educators,
counselors, etc., to work themselves out of a job.
I have heard arguments against the
) 'temperaments' and against labeling. I have posted before
) on the detriments of labeling concerning race and I think
) that the same applies here. The use of labels is a natural
) way of dealing with the children from the point of view of
) the teacher. I imagine that public school teachers are
) given child psychology training where they learn types or
) labels.
Child psychology does not really involve labeling. The training depends on
the orientation of the training institution and/or faculty. A behaviorally
oriented institution like Western Michigan University trains people
according to the behaviorist tradition. Northern Illinois on the other
hand used to have a sort of psychoanalytic bent. At one time the
developmental department at Harvard seemed to have a Piagetian orientation.
I know of one trainer at Chapel Hill who is a phenomenologist dealing with
attending disorders.
In Waldorf training they learn Steiner's
) temperaments.
This it the point. The orientation of the school determines the training
meted out.
There is no difference between the two.
) Labeling is a shortcut tool that teachers use in order to
) help educate the children as a group.
Kind of, but I think the focus is on the individual when talking about
labels. Public school teachers I think though use more informal labels
than those they may have been exposed to in training.
)
) In the above post it was stated that there is no funding
) based on labels/temperaments. Here, in the details, is the
) difference between Waldorf and public schools. Public
) schools are very much under the pressure of financial
) incentive to have children labeled.
Not true. It would be far cheaper not to label kids. Children with
problems could be flunked out or expelled more easily and cheaply. The
funding provided does not match the funds expended. The laws that require
labeling have only been partially funded since their enactment and the
partial funding has never matched the amount initially promised in the
early 1970's.
States are required by
) law to provide special services to children with special
) needs. This system is important to insure that every Childs
) needs are met.
This is true.
The abuse of this system has lead to the
) huge increase in children 'diagnosed' with hyperactivity.
Attending disorders are not a cash cow for schools I can assure you. I am
not up on the latest but you are probably correct that diagnoses of
attending disorders have increased. You are probably seeing however some
misdiagnosis because other conditions can look like attending disorders.
) These hyper kids bring in more funding for the schools, not
) to mention the pharmaceutical companies.
The funding provided to schools does not match the amount of funds expended
for kids with behavioral problems including those with attending disorders.
Medication usually does not make all the problems go away even if the dose
is absolutely perfect and appropriately prescribed. Lots of other things
need to happen that involve people and resources for children to learn.
)
) The issue of validity came up in the above post. I don't
) feel as though one could judge validity between the Steiner
) temperament or the popular-psychology-of-the-day label. In
) my book they are equally invalid and detrimental.
There are different kinds of validity. One is face validity. If something
looks good or looks like it fits. The temperaments might have half-way
decent face validity. Predictive validity means something can predict what
is going to happen with a given amount of certainty. The temperaments are
probably be more of a self-fulfilling prophecy than predictive. That is
dangerous in that if I expect a child to behave in a certain way then the
child will probably behave that way. Concurrent validity occurs if my
measure of something matches another measure someone else is doing. My
guess is that children labeled with temperaments behave differently in
different settings depending on the expectations. That though would be
open to study.
)
) Labels, when applied to children, are hard to shake.
This can be true.
Often
) a quick judgment by a single teacher can follow a child for
) life.
This should not happen. I can see how it would happen in Waldorf though
because the same teacher would have the child for a long time. Plenty of
time for the teacher to mold the child to his/her expectations based on
whatever biased might be there (e.g., validation of temperament ideas).
Even though Waldorf teachers claim pure intent and think themselves above
that I am not willing to take that chance. In public school however,
change of teachers from year to year provides a chance of a different
perspective on the child behavior or achievement and can give the child a
fresh start.
Parents with children in both public and Waldorf
) schools should be aware of the practice of labeling in the
) schools and insure that their children know that they are
) not a 'label/temperament' but an individual that is loved
) and cared for.
This is true. However, I think there is a difference between telling an
individual they have a learning disability, or that they have attention
deficit disorder and telling them that they are a (fill-in-the-blank)
temperament. The latter implies a part of the identity that is based on
nothing in fact. At least I have not seen anything to substantiate the
temperament notion.
)
) By labeling I also mean the use of standardized testing.
) Standardized tests may be useful in socialist and communist
) countries but have no place in a democratic country.
The school laws disagree with this. Congress at least feels that
standardized tests are necessary to help determine what kids need
educationally and the whole purpose of education was to ensure that people
could participate in the democracy. If some children can not read and we
do not know how to teach them they will not be able to read the ballot and
will be less likely to vote and participate. They will not be able to read
literature about issues and make informed choices. They will not be able
to read job applications so they can pay taxes. Standardized tests are
designed to help provide teams of people information about what kids need
to succeed. I agree with you though that the potential for abuse is there
and abuse has happened. The Legacy of Malthus is a good book that came out
in the mid 70's that talks about that.
)
) Dose Waldorf use standardized testing??
I know a school in Sedona AZ that administers the Stanford 9. It is a
state mandate and they are a publicly funded charter school.
)
)
Take care,
Jim
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2394.8 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: temperaments
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 23:48:08 -0700
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References: (200006191352.GAA19899 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200006191352.GAA19899 lists1.best.com)
Reading the Australian master teacher Alan Whitehead's book -A
Steiner Primary School?-, I just came across a mother lode of lore
about "the temperaments."
Whitehead is a Steiner fundamentalist. He interprets Steiner
independently, and disagrees with many of the European traditions,
like Grimm's fairy tales. Another way to look at him would be as an
Anthroposophical protestant reformer. He wants to get back to the
revealed truth and throw away the traditions that have compromised
the original vision.
"The 4 Temperaments express their most pure form in the life period 7
to 14, resting as they do in the chalice of the ether body."
***
"This 7 to 14 period is, in broad terms, a replay of the Ancient Sun
evolution. On this 2nd planetary condition, the etheric body was
created, just as it is created anew, as a conscious organ, in the
period of primary childhood.
"So it was on Ancient Sun that the human temperaments were also
formed, on the basis of the unfolding ether, or 'life' body. We,
humanity, were mere gaseous beings then, supersensible gas even! But
these air-people still manifested the nascent forces of the 4
temperaments. The choleric types were like violent storms--hurricanes
even! Indeed weather forecasts are externalisedd pictures of the
temperaments, expecially in describing winds. The winds are indeed
the temperaments of the earth.
***
"Rudolf Steiner was careful to give TWO descriptions of the 'dominant
bodies' determining the 4 temperaments. With -children- (from 7 to
14) he describes it thus: cholerics have a predominating astral body;
sanguines, etheric; phlegmatics, physical; and the inwardly-active
melancholics have a dominant ego. He describes the change in the
-adult- dominant body-temperament differently: the choleric has the
dominant ego this time; sanguine, astral; phlegmatic, etheric; and
the poor old melancholic is weighted down with the 'millstone', as
the Doctor called it, of the physical body.
"He also tells how we can determine, absolutely, which body is
dominant in a person--child OR adult! This is via the eye colour;
there are four basic eye colours in the human being, to service the 4
temperaments. Whe, say, the physical body is dominant, there will be
a red eye. Red? Well brown actually; the range of browns, from pale
tawny to deep chocolate, express - unequivocally - physical body
dominance - in phlegmatic children AND melancholic adults.
"The etheric body is a 'light' entity, expressing as yellow (Steiner
used, among other terms, 'colourless' for this). Yellows, ranging
from deep green, to hazel, to topaz - and even the 'ideterminate' eye
- 'I don't really know what colour her eyes are - a kind of grey,
greeny, hazel ...?!' give us the sanguine child, and the phlegmatic
adult. Both have a dominant etheric body.
"Red physical, yellow etheric, and blue - so we have the astral body.
Its element is of course 'water', and the nominal colour of water is
blue.
"Blue eyes, according to Rudolf Steiner, indicate a dominant astral
body; making adults sanguine, and children choleric! The ego, in a
sense the combination of all three colours (red, yellow, blue),
expresses through the earth-mineral colour, grey (the hue one's water
jar turns when painting with the 3 primaries). In its most condensed
form, grey becomes black. Steiner (black-eyed himself!) described the
coal-eyed Napoleon as the classic choleric."
***
"There are 7 corollary features to eye-colour temperament; these
either reinforce, modify or even cancel a temperament, they are: hair
colour; movement; complexion; hair texture; face shape; body form.
With eye colour, this makes up the Seven Aspects of Temperament;
relating, as the number 7 always does, to the 7 Planets."
[Whitehead, Alan. -A Steiner Primary School?: A Creative Approach: A
Companion Volume to: A Steiner High School?; A Steiner Homeschool?-.
Brunswick Heads, Australia: Golden Beetle Books, 1993, pp. 39-41.]
There's more, much much more but I'll save my hands for now.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2394.9 ---------------
From: BarbaraWB aol.com
Subject: RE: Treasure trove in Whitehead
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 07:26:19 EDT
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In a message dated 6/20/00 3:24:14 AM, dan dandugan.com writes:
(( Reading the Australian master teacher Alan Whitehead's book -A
Steiner Primary School?-, I just came across a mother lode of lore
about "the temperaments."
Whitehead is a Steiner fundamentalist. He interprets Steiner
independently, and disagrees with many of the European traditions,
like Grimm's fairy tales. Another way to look at him would be as an
Anthroposophical protestant reformer. He wants to get back to the
revealed truth and throw away the traditions that have compromised
the original vision.
"The 4 Temperaments express their most pure form in the life period 7
to 14, resting as they do in the chalice of the ether body."
***
"This 7 to 14 period is, in broad terms, a replay of the Ancient Sun
evolution. On this 2nd planetary condition, the etheric body was
created, just as it is created anew, as a conscious organ, in the
period of primary childhood.
"So it was on Ancient Sun that the human temperaments were also
formed, on the basis of the unfolding ether, or 'life' body. We,
humanity, were mere gaseous beings then, supersensible gas even! But
these air-people still manifested the nascent forces of the 4
temperaments. The choleric types were like violent storms--hurricanes
even! Indeed weather forecasts are externalisedd pictures of the
temperaments, expecially in describing winds. The winds are indeed
the temperaments of the earth.
***
"Rudolf Steiner was careful to give TWO descriptions of the 'dominant
bodies' determining the 4 temperaments. With -children- (from 7 to
14) he describes it thus: cholerics have a predominating astral body;
sanguines, etheric; phlegmatics, physical; and the inwardly-active
melancholics have a dominant ego. He describes the change in the
-adult- dominant body-temperament differently: the choleric has the
dominant ego this time; sanguine, astral; phlegmatic, etheric; and
the poor old melancholic is weighted down with the 'millstone', as
the Doctor called it, of the physical body.
"He also tells how we can determine, absolutely, which body is
dominant in a person--child OR adult! This is via the eye colour;
there are four basic eye colours in the human being, to service the 4
temperaments. Whe, say, the physical body is dominant, there will be
a red eye. Red? Well brown actually; the range of browns, from pale
tawny to deep chocolate, express - unequivocally - physical body
dominance - in phlegmatic children AND melancholic adults.
"The etheric body is a 'light' entity, expressing as yellow (Steiner
used, among other terms, 'colourless' for this). Yellows, ranging
from deep green, to hazel, to topaz - and even the 'ideterminate' eye
- 'I don't really know what colour her eyes are - a kind of grey,
greeny, hazel ...?!' give us the sanguine child, and the phlegmatic
adult. Both have a dominant etheric body.
"Red physical, yellow etheric, and blue - so we have the astral body.
Its element is of course 'water', and the nominal colour of water is
blue.
"Blue eyes, according to Rudolf Steiner, indicate a dominant astral
body; making adults sanguine, and children choleric! The ego, in a
sense the combination of all three colours (red, yellow, blue),
expresses through the earth-mineral colour, grey (the hue one's water
jar turns when painting with the 3 primaries). In its most condensed
form, grey becomes black. Steiner (black-eyed himself!) described the
coal-eyed Napoleon as the classic choleric."
***
"There are 7 corollary features to eye-colour temperament; these
either reinforce, modify or even cancel a temperament, they are: hair
colour; movement; complexion; hair texture; face shape; body form.
With eye colour, this makes up the Seven Aspects of Temperament;
relating, as the number 7 always does, to the 7 Planets."
[Whitehead, Alan. -A Steiner Primary School?: A Creative Approach: A
Companion Volume to: A Steiner High School?; A Steiner Homeschool?-.
Brunswick Heads, Australia: Golden Beetle Books, 1993, pp. 39-41.]
There's more, much much more but I'll save my hands for now.
-Dan Dugan
Dan - Are these quotes that Whitehead agrees with, or examples of nonesense
that he feels should be reformed? One of the first things I said when I saw
the light at "my" school (after, "I'm outta here") was - if anyone wants to
grow a school fusing the best of Waldorf inspiration with
the 20th - 21st C., call me!
Thanks,
Barbara
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2394.10 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Dan Dugan and Dr Boyer of Carnegie on Waldorf education
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:04:31 +0200
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References: (200006191454.HAA12738 lists1.best.com)
Diana Winters wrote:
) "A system that recognizes and meets the need for strong development of the
) intellect, Waldorf is committed to excellence in all basic academic skills.
) It provides a full introduction to the classics, foreign languages, history,
) geography, mathematics, science . . . the subjects today's child needs as a
) foundation for tomorrow's complex and challenging civilization."
)
) I think this is dishonest to begin with - stating "strong development of the
) intellect" first - that is *not* their stress in practice; they feel the
) intellect is the *last* thing, not the first, that should be developed. I
) guess it is stated that way to answer concerns parents may have because
) they've heard Waldorf is artsy and doesn't stress academics.
http://www.artsusa.org/education/artslnk73.html is only one of the 89 000
pages on the net found by http://www.alltheweb.com when searching for +Arts
+intelligence +education. It points to one aspect of the basis for the
importance and use of arts in the development of human intelligence. All
things and human qualities don't develop simply by addition. Sometimes one
has to do many other things first to reach a goal.
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2394 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2395 --------------
001 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: Dan Dugan and Dr Boyer of Carnegie on Waldorf education
002 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Dan Dugan and Dr Boyer of Carnegie on Waldorf education
003 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: Dan Dugan and Dr Boyer of Carnegie on Waldorf education
004 - Chand.Desai mcmail.vander - Re: temperments
005 - Chand.Desai mcmail.vander - Re: temperments
006 - Chand.Desai mcmail.vander - Re: PS Re Steiner and "jewish culture"
007 - Rose Alford (roseal telep - Re: PS Re Steiner and "jewish culture"
008 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Thanks and a thought
009 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - "master teacher"?
010 - Robert Flannery (litvas i - Re: temperments
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2395.1 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Dan Dugan and Dr Boyer of Carnegie on Waldorf education
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 14:12:33 GMT
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Sune, your style of posting confuses me sometimes, and I wo