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-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2085 --------------
001 - Chand.Desai mcmail.vander - RE: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching (long)
002 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - Re: Lack of Mechanism
003 - Peter Farrell (peter.farr - Re: Lack of Mechanism
004 - Peter Farrell (peter.farr -
005 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Lack of Mechanism
006 - Chand.Desai mcmail.vander - Re: Lack of Mechanism
007 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - RE: lines as impulse
008 - "debra harvey" (debharve - Re: Spiritual Inspiration for Nazism- Part I
009 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: PS
010 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Prejudice
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2085.1 ---------------
From: Chand.Desai mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Subject: RE: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching (long)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 23:42:54 -0600
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All right Peter, you asked for it....
Journal of Traditional Chinese Medicine. 18(1):55-63, 1998
Experimental research has recently shown that acupuncture induces
the formation of opioid-like peptides (OLPs) in animals. In order
to provide further evidence, we tested the beta-endorphin levels
and other parameters (VIP, lymphocyte subsets, NK cells and
monocyte phagocytosis) in a group of 90 patients suffering from
various painful disorders treated with acupuncture. Zusanli (St 36)
and Hegu (LI 4) acupoints were selected. A homogeneous group of 30
subjects was used as control. Evaluation of the above parameters
was made with 3 series of blood tests before treatment, 30 minutes
and 24 hours after acupuncture treatment. In the acupuncture
group, the following results were achieved: 1) A considerable
increase in beta-endorphin levels remained high even 24 hours after
acupuncture treatment. In addition, we demonstrated an inverted
correlation between beta-endorphins and VIP; 2) 30 minutes after
acupuncture session, 80% of the treated patients showed a significant
increase of CD3 and CD4 values and an increase of CD8 24
hours after stimulation; 3) Monocyte phagocytosis was increased in
45% of the treated subjects 30 minutes from starting treatment, and
in 100% of them after 24 hours. The percentage of NK cells was also
increased in 40% of cases after 30 minutes, and in 50% after 24
hours. However, in the control group, no such significant changes
in immune parameters were found.
For more on mechanism (Human Brain Mapping. 9(1):13-25, 2000)...
Acupuncture, an ancient therapeutic technique, is emerging as an
important modality of complementary medicine in the United States.
The use and efficacy of acupuncture treatment are not yet widely
accepted in Western scientific and medical communities. Demonstration
of regionally specific, quantifiable acupuncture effects on relevant
structures of the human brain would facilitate acceptance and
integration of this therapeutic modality into the practice of modern
medicine. Research with animal models of acupuncture indicates that
many of the beneficial effects may be mediated at the subcortical level
in the brain. We used functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI)
to investigate the effects of acupuncture in normal subjects and to
provide a foundation for future studies on mechanisms of
acupuncture action in therapeutic interventions. Acupuncture needle
manipulation was performed at Large Intestine 4 (LI 4, Hegu) on
the hand in 13 subjects [Stux, 1997]. Needle manipulation on either
hand produced prominent decreases of fMRI signals in the nucleus
accumbens, amygdala, hippocampus, parahippocampus, hypothalamus,
ventral tegmental area, anterior cingulate gyrus (BA 24), caudate,
putamen, temporal pole, and insula in all 11 subjects who experienced
acupuncture sensation. In marked contrast, signal increases were
observed primarily in the somatosensory cortex. The two subjects
who experienced pain instead of acupuncture sensation exhibited
signal increases instead of decreases in the anterior cingulate gyrus
(BA 24), caudate, putamen, anterior thalamus, and posterior insula.
Superficial tactile stimulation to the same area elicited signal increases
in the somatosensory cortex as expected, but no signal decreases in
the deep structures. These preliminary results suggest that acupuncture
needle manipulation modulates the activity of the limbic system
and subcortical structures. We hypothesize that modulation of subcortical
structures may be an important mechanism by which acupuncture exerts
its complex multisystem effects.
JAMA. 280(18):1580-4, 1998 Nov 11. This one will blow your mind!
Inserting needles into the corners of the fifth toenail causes breech babies
to become "cephalic". Want to postulate a mechanism? A "controlled randomized
study to boot!
Journal of Substance Abuse Treatment. 17(4):305-12, 1999 Dec.
"...We determined that acupuncture detoxification programs are a useful
component of a substance abuse treatment system. "
Pain. 83(2):235-41, 1999 Nov. -" Acupuncture with penetration of
the skin was shown to be more effective than a similar therapeutic setting
with placebo needling in the treatment of pain. "
There are a lot more, but except for the first article, I just picked a few from
journals
that didn't have names like:
American Journal of Acupuncture, Journal of Alternative & Complementary
Medicine, or
American Journal of Chinese Medicine.
I have read only the abstracts of some of these articles, but they are
consistant with the form
and methodology of other articles on clinical research that I have read in the
past. I also have to
say that with the exception of JAMA, I have never read an article in any of
these journals.
[Peter]:
(snip guilt by association with Uri Geller)
)...It is interesting that a scientist uses as evidence for the reality
)of a phenomenon a television documentary....
I just found the documentary compelling, and since you didn't seem to credit my
account of
the seminar on self destructive behavior, I mentioned it.
The case for magnets is much weaker. The most positive report I have heard of
was a piece on
National Public Radio about magnets, pain and diabetes, but I can't find any
corresponding publication. This is what I found:
Ostomy Wound Management. 44(5):24-9, 1998 May
Complementary therapies, in particular magnet therapy, may have benefits to
offer in
healing chronic wounds. This case study involves a 51 year old paraplegic woman
with
an abdominal wound that had been present for one year. Traditional approaches to
wound
care had not achieved complete healing. Prior to surgical intervention, the
patient consented
to the application of magnet therapy over her usual wound dressing. In one
month, the wound
completely healed. On the basis of this case, further investigation of magnet
therapy for
wound healing appears to be warranted.
and
Wisconsin Medical Journal. 96(3):35-7, 1997 Mar.
Magnetic therapy is ineffective for the treatment of snoring and obstructive
sleep apnea
syndrome.
Are you ready to retire your lasers yet, Peter? (If not lasers, how do you bore
the sodium?)
Chand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2085.2 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: Re: Lack of Mechanism
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 23:05:22 -0800
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References: (200003210119.RAA10067 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200003210557.VAA02779 lists1.best.com)
)Peter writes:
)
)The difficulty is that a great deal
)) is known and understood about the processes of purification and solution
)) which is just at odds with the workings of homeopathy.
Alan wries:
)Peter I first want to say I am enjoying your posts. I take back everything
)I said about you a scientist when you did the study on Goethe's influence on
)science. You've done something that no one has been able to do for twenty
)five years, get me thinking about science again.
Deby:
And this is where it gets exciting for me. I'm a great observer. I just
know observers have a place...
Keep going. It helps me form my view.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2085.3 ---------------
From: Peter Farrell (peter.farrell vu.edu.au)
Subject: Re: Lack of Mechanism
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:22:13 +1100
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Alan Fine asks a question about solutions and memory. I think the question
you are asking is very subtle or I don't understand it. I think what you
are saying is right with some very large provisos. I think you may be
putting the cart before the horse. What we know about diffusion and
solution is that over time the memory vanishes. Let's consider the ink and
water trick. Carefully put a drop of ink at the bottom of a glass of water.
The ink starts to diffuse through the water. If there are no currents and
no one shakes it up then this will take some time, maybe hours before you
might say the ink is evenly distributed. I hope you are all convinced that
this is so. If you stir it or shake it (succuss) the time scale goes
correspondingly down. What does memory mean in this case? Does the glass of
water "know" where the ink drop started? All the evidence says no. The
theory (statistical mechanics) says no.
Let's say we take the water ink mixture and we separate the two, by
evaporation and condensation. So we have the water back and a powder at the
bottom of the glass that used to be the ink. There will be various
contaminats as well. For the sake of argument let's pretend our process was
very good so that there is no ink in the condensed water. Does the water
know it used to have ink in it? This is a really serious question. Let me
try to make it clear how outlandish this notion is. The information about
the previous history of the water cannot be stored without some
conformational change to the water. What possible things do we have. Well
there is the internal structure of the water molecules. We might excite
some electronic or vibrational or rotational state of the molecule. Bit of
a problem with the last two, because every time there is a collision
between the water molecules they mix the vibrational and rotational states.
It's called shuffling when you do it with cards. The electronic states
require lots of energy. Where does it come from? These are the two issues.
Either we have to get energy from somewhere to store the information, or
alternativley thermal motion and collisions destroys any information that
is there. Any water molecule may have been hanging around as water for a
long time. It may have been in the sea and then part of a fish and then
Alan Fine ate the fish and later he sneezed that bit of water out and that
water evaporated and condensed into the glass of water with the ink drop.
What memory do you want this water to have?
This was written quickly and I hope it is clear. The ideas possibly poorly
expressed are fundamental to current understandings of processes such as
solution. Many measurable properties can be calculated using the theory. A
good example is that if you add a bit of anything that dissolves to water
you raise the boiling point. There is excellent agreement between the
predictions of statistical mechanics and measured reality.
I just read your post again and I am more happy with it. I think you have
expressed it better than my attempt to make it clear.
I'm glad you are enjoying my posts.
Peter
Peter Farrell Phone (+613) 9688 4282
Optical Technology Research Laboratory Fax (+613) 9688 4698
School of Communications and Informatics(F119)
Victoria University Email peter.farrell vu.edu.au
PO Box 14428 MCMC
Melbourne 8001 Australia
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2085.4 ---------------
From: Peter Farrell (peter.farrell vu.edu.au)
Subject:
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:51:33 +1100
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Chand writes
)Did you read that? Desai, CJ, Sun Q and Zinn, K. Current Opinion in
)Neurobiology 7:70-74, (1997) is much more fun to read - at least a little
bit on
)page 72.
)
No I didn't. I read the abstracts of your recent papers and satisfied
myself that the one I chose had a high probability that some solution was
used somewhere. I was right! I'll check out page 72. Unfortunately,
neurobiology is not a big issue where I am, so It'll be a while before I
see it.
)I don't think I have to publish a retraction because the solutions (and water
)supply) used were the same for mutant and wild-type. You spark a question
in my
)mind - I wonder what the water purifier we use to produce milliQ water
does to
)that water? It has to recirculate in there a lot - kind of like the
mixing of
)homeopathic remedies - all the while being "diluted" of various ions.
Must be
)something like D6 or D8.
)
This is a very tricky issue. I don't think you need to print a retraction
but you are right, homeopathy presents serious complications for water
purifiers.
Peter
Peter Farrell Phone (+613) 9688 4282
Optical Technology Research Laboratory Fax (+613) 9688 4698
School of Communications and Informatics(F119)
Victoria University Email peter.farrell vu.edu.au
PO Box 14428 MCMC
Melbourne 8001 Australia
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2085.5 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Lack of Mechanism
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 06:42:55 -0500
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charset="windows-1252"
[Peter Farrell]
) I am happy with the lack of mechanism provided the claimed
) phenomenon is
) not obviously inconsistent with other well known science. I
) have discussed
) examples already. The short answer is no (or at least very
) little) negative
) weight if you have good statistics. The good statistics are a
) message which
) cries out "look for the mechanism".
)
[Bob Tolz]
That makes sense.
Bob Tolz
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2085.6 ---------------
From: Chand.Desai mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Subject: Re: Lack of Mechanism
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 08:07:40 -0600
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[Peter]:
)Carefully put a drop of ink at the bottom of a glass of water.
)The ink starts to diffuse through the water. If there are no currents and
)no one shakes it up then this will take some time, maybe hours before you
)might say the ink is evenly distributed.
You had better be patient. I once tried to demonstrate diffusion using a
similar technique but couldn't detect any changes the next day. Maybe the
density of the color I used was too great.
Chand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2085.7 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: lines as impulse
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 15:45:24 GMT
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Luke responded to Lynnette Curry, on the fact that children have always
drawn outlines. (And Lynnette responded again, better than I could, but I
can't resist putting in my two cents. )
Speaking again as someone who watched small children actively discouraged
from making lines and outlines in Waldorf preschool, Luke, I would just like
to repeat the point I made before: no one has to "teach" kids to draw lines
or outlines. If you give them paper and markers (or even watercolor paints),
this is what they often do. If they are making lines and you want them to do
something else, you have to force the issue (and end up acting like a jerk).
[Luke]
) culturally engrained symbolism makes it possible for people to
) )recognize an object by the shape it makes in space.
Do you not want your children to be comfortable understanding and expressing
themselves in the symolism of their culture? You want to train them to go
*against* the symbolism of their culture? Is it actually possible to
communicate outside of the symbolism of one's culture?
[Luke]
)The shape an object has in space has nothing to do with visual )perception.
) An outline shape of an VW beetle may be recognizable to )anyone who is
)part of a culture that recognizes that shape as such )but if you show that
)shape to a child they might just as well call )it a beaver or a slice of
)watermellon.
Luke, they are also very eager to understand that in their culture, it is
called a VW Beetle. Almost from birth a child is learning to recognize and
identify objects the way his or her culture does.
[Lynnette]
)This propensity for making lines is also common to all children.
[Luke]
) Especially when you give them line making tools. Take a child to )the
)beach and give them a bucket and a shovel and ask them what a )castle looks
)like and I am sure that they won't use the bucket to )draw some lines in
)the sand. Give the same child a stick and ask )them again and you will
)likely get a line drawing in the sand. Give )them a blanket and you will
)get something else.
Making sand castles is great, and so is drawing with sticks in the sand or
building forts in the backyard with old blankets. Why are some of these
forms of expression okay, while one particular form (the making of lines)
seems to cause all kinds of philosophical problems. These are all natural
forms of human expression.
[Luke]
)If you want to handicap your child by over encouraging their )expression to
)*only that which can be expressed by line* that's )fine, but
I can see you wringing your hands while your child draws at the kitchen
table, "But honey, I don't want you to be limited to that which can be
expressed by line!" Leave them alone! Just admire their artwork and hang it
on the refrigerator!
[Luke]
)why would anyone want children to )sublimate what they are seeing )for the
)sake of shoe-hornng it into )convenient cultural symbols )(for the benefit
)of the parents mostly).
Now how do you figure it is for the benefit of the parents? I am thrilled
with my son's line drawings, I was thrilled with his scribbles or big blobs
of color, I will be thrilled when he draws three-dimensionally or starts to
be interested in foreground and background, shade and shadow. Unless someone
has artistic aspirations for their child, I suspect this is how most parents
feel about their kids' artwork.
[Luke]
) One could also say that encouraging children to distill what they )see
)in the world to shorthand symbols (line drawings) might make )them more
)likely to distill the rest of their experiences in life to )convenient
)shorthand symbols, like say racial characteristics and )ethnic stereotypes.
Drawing outlines will encourage racial steretotyping? Now, I am always being
accused of making huge unsupported leaps, I would really like to hear how
you could possibly support such a claim, Luke.
[Luke about Utne Reader drawing]
)The school removed the cultural symbol superimposition to return it )back
)the the child's *actual* drawing. Who is respecting the )child's work
)here?
I doubt the motivation to change it back before printing the brochure was
about respecting that child's drawing; it was about PR for the school, Luke.
Diana
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2085.8 ---------------
From: "debra harvey" (debharve hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Spiritual Inspiration for Nazism- Part I
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 16:26:13 GMT
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[Alan]
)
)Debra Harvey asked me for my views on how the inspiration for Nazism and
)Anthroposophy overlap.
[Harve]
Alan, thank you for your effort. i took some days off from the computer and
note that you have several posts related to race and Nazism. I look forward
to reading them.
I have decided that I'm not going to comment on any of this until I have
taken the time to do extensive reading and thinking--although I may pose
some questions as I go along with the process.
Thanks again,
Debra Harvey
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2085.9 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: PS
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 20:59:22 -0800
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References: (200003192055.MAA15781 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200003192055.MAA15781 lists1.best.com)
3/19/00, paulina leonard wrote:
)- First of all, HAPPY BIRTHDAY, Dan. have a good one!
Thanks, you missed a great party.
)- Secondly, Alan, if you read this I just wanted to mention that you are
)totally off base in regard to humans and a group soul. You really
)should read more Steiner before you quote him. Humans are not part
)of a group soul.
"Besides their character, families, nations and races have also their
destiny. ... Besides the separate individuals, a very real family and
national group soul and racial spirit is at work in the life of a
family, a people, or a race. Indeed, in a certain sense the separate
individuals are merely the executive organs of these family group
souls, racial spirits, and so on....In the truest sense, everyone
receives his allotted task from his family, national or racial group
soul." [Steiner, 1904, KHW pp. 240-241]
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2085.10 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Prejudice
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 20:44:06 -0800
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References: (200003190603.WAA10838 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200003190603.WAA10838 lists1.best.com)
At 10:03 PM -0800 3/18/00, David wrote:
)For information: I note with interest that for posting a story/"funny
)joke" I was told I was abusing the list and unsubsribed yet I keep
)reading about a variety of postings (music, film stars etc.) without a
)word from the moderator but you are not prejudiced Dan are you? :-)
)Regards
)David Mollet
Sure I'm prejudiced. My patience with you is limited. You've
threatened to sue PLANS. You've posted your self-justifying list of
"Waldorf without Anthroposophy" accomplishments over and over. And
your signature below is too long.
-Dan Dugan
)*********************************
)Dr. David Mollet
)In case you are interested, I would just like to pass this site on to
)you. It is the Hunger Site supported by the U.N. All you do is click a
)button and somewhere in the world some hungry person gets a meal at no
)cost to you. The food is paid for by corporate sponsors who have their
)logos on the site. You're only allowed one click per day.
)http://www.thehungersite.com/index.html
)*********************************
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2085 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2086 --------------
001 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Anthropop doctors (was: Peter Farrell on Goethe and scienc
002 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Response to Luke Schelly.
003 - "debra harvey" (debharve - Re: Prejudice
004 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: PS
005 - r (soma mwt.net) - Paulina-a few lasts comments.
006 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Robert Jan Kelder
007 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Response to Paulina Leonard.
008 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching
009 - paulina leonard (pkleonar - Re: PS
010 - paulina leonard (pkleonar - Re: Response to Paulina Leonard.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2086.1 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Anthropop doctors (was: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science
teaching)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 20:14:12 -0800
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
References: (200003191807.KAA07226 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200003191807.KAA07226 lists1.best.com)
At 2:37 PM -0500 3/18/00, David Cann wrote:
)I am quite sure that association with anthroposophical (sp?) doctors is
)voluntary on the part of the school. We had an agreement with one for years
)(he visited once every week or two), but don't anymore. No one seems the
)worse for it.
What could it be other than voluntary?
)Dan, do you have any reference for saying each school is "supposed to have
)one?"
Tradition. "The School Doctor".
"The decision for any handedness change may only be made by the
school doctor in consultation with parents and carried out under his
supervision." [McAllen, 1992, pp. 23-24]
"When it comes to using medications, however, it is important to get
the school's physician or the family doctor involved. Parents tend to
react negatively, and rightly so, when the teacher starts
recommending medications. But if you advise them to consult the
school's physician about the possibility of medical treatment, since
in your experience this often has a positive effect on a child's
behavior in school, they will often take your advice." [Glöckler,
1993, p. 21]
)Dan stated:
) )Anthroposophical physicians are associated with
) )Waldorf schools, each is supposed to have one but there aren't enough
) )to go around.
)and:
) )I believe Waldorf schools are the source of most of
) )Anthropop physicians' business.
)
)
)Is this belief based on any data? I wouldn't be surprised, but I don't even
)know how one would justify a claim like this.
)
)David
)
)__________________________________________
)NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
)Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
)http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2086.2 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Response to Luke Schelly.
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 20:55:35 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (200003191847.KAA22818 lists1.best.com)
(200003192041.MAA09589 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200003192041.MAA09589 lists1.best.com)
3/19/00, paulina leonard wrote:
)It is certainly possible that Steiner might have given some kind of
)insightful indications on this matter that I have yet to run across,
)but, I remain dubious. Given that he fashioned his educational
)indications specifically on the fact that he felt the healthiest,
)most effective educational process should reflect the normal
)development of the human being, recapitulatingour evolutionary
)development as a species I find it very hard to swallow that he
)would have said children should not draw lines arising out of free
)expression.
I don't have Steiner on it, but some later commentators obviously
source from him:
"For Steiner, teaching children to draw with lines is only really
justified in subjects such as Geometry, or when studying perspective.
To draw a horizon, for example, by means of a line is an abstraction
and untrue in terms of nature itself. In reality the horizon results
from the meeting of two adjacent but separate colours, the blue of
the sky and the green of the land. Therefore the teacher should
'gradually come to appreciate that the forms of nature really arise
out of the colours and that therefore drawing is a process of
abstraction.'
"What is usually taught in drawing should be replaced by painting
with colours, or shading areas of dark and light. In this way the
child's feeling for colour, light and shade is developed without
being spoiled by the abstract conception of line drawing. " [Blunt,
1995, p. 147]
"When a child draws an object of nature, a tree or a rock for
example, he is experiencing nature itself. If he uses solid, unbroken
lines to represent the object, he is fixing his perception on
something which really isn't there. In reality, we perceive visual
images as gradations of shade and color, never as the distinct
outlines we commonly use to draw with. The techniques given in these
two lessons allow a child to have a different and truer relationship
to his physical world." [Mercury Press Catalog, 1995, p. 5]
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2086.3 ---------------
From: "debra harvey" (debharve hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Prejudice
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 17:17:20 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
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)
)At 10:03 PM -0800 3/18/00, David wrote:
))For information: I note with interest that for posting a story/"funny
))joke" I was told I was abusing the list and unsubsribed yet I keep
))reading about a variety of postings (music, film stars etc.) without a
))word from the moderator but you are not prejudiced Dan are you? :-)
))Regards
[Harve]
David, why don't you lighten up? The music discussion was a respite from a
very heated discussion about life forces and race. I am sure that we will
move forward on that discussion, but with more collegiality than we would
have but for the music discussion, which was spurred by Bob's Barry Manilow
comment.
[Dan replying to David]
)
)Sure I'm prejudiced. My patience with you is limited. You've
)threatened to sue PLANS. You've posted your self-justifying list of
)"Waldorf without Anthroposophy" accomplishments over and over. And
)your signature below is too long.
)
[Harve]
Dan, I've got problems with each of your statements above. First, you are
trying to remedy perceived wrongs through litigation. Why can't David?
Second, I think that certain aspects of Waldorf education has a lot to
offer. David has a proposed way of presenting it without Anthroposophy. I
applaud and welcome those efforts. Third, I have passed along the Hunger
Site and try to visit it on a daily basis.
Was your response to David a joke?
Happy Birthday Dan. You share it with my son.
Debra Harvey
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2086.4 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: PS
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 21:41:58 -0800
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References: (200003201211.EAA12547 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200003201211.EAA12547 lists1.best.com)
3/20/00, Diana Winters wrote:
)[raison]
))In Anthroposophy, there IS no "reality" except that which the
))"I" )creates it, so it is the inner thought of the "I" which is
))worth )working with in this state of immaterial self-consciousness
))which is )all.
)
)Is this really what Steiner said? I'm as surprised by this as what
)Terry Boardman said about the material world being an illusion.
"Only because the things of the sensible world are nothing but
condensed spirit beings is the man who lifts himself by means of his
thoughts to these spirit beings able by thinking to understand the
things. Sense objects originate in the spirit world. They are only
another form of the spirit beings, and when a man forms thoughts
about things, his inner nature is merely directed away from the
sensible form and out towards the spiritual archetypes of these
things." [Steiner, Theosophy, chapter 5]
(snip)
)I was mentioning some of this to a friend who knows nothing about
)the Steiner/Waldorf world, and explained that anthroposophists take
)Steiner as a "seer" and some apparently believe literally all his
)descriptions of the spirit world. He said, "So they believe Steiner
)was a seer. Do they believe he was the *only* seer?" Good question.
)It does seem that way.
Steiner said that anyone could learn to do it by following his
instructions. It is rare that an Anthropop will claim to have
achieved supersensible vision.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2086.5 ---------------
From: r (soma mwt.net)
Subject: Paulina-a few lasts comments.
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 11:32:27 -0600
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Personally, I have no interest in sacrificing children's
self-expression in order to institute Anthro. beliefs. My facetious
reference to "the cosmic horror of sucked out astral bodies" brought
about by not obeying Steiner's instructions and controls makes this
clear.
I make no distinction concerning drawing lines as opposed to painting
them. From an early age through KG (and onwards), children's joy and
delight is having a good stiff brush and lots of paint. As the child
goes through the phases of marks...radials..mandalas...and then
representations of themselves and their world, they soon start filling
in solids, anyhow. (Even Michelangelo mapped out compositions in lines
first.)
It is the freedom to enjoy this kinesthetic pleasure that incurs the
benefit of enhancing motor skills so beneficial to hand and eye
control. Obviously this facilitates reading-(following lines with
eyes) and making alphabet and cursive symbols.
Children in public schools would benefit from having an authentic art
program. (Not the apology made on wall-to-wall carpeting in fear of the
janitor's union). I deplore the mechanical rows of pumpkins, hearts
etc., cut out by most public school teachers... I am very conscious of
the general fear exhibited by most adults concerning the artistic
expression of children. There appears to be an almost superstitious
consensus that "inefficiencies" of their pupils will be a reflection of
their own artistic shortcomings--instead of relaxing and encouraging
children to enjoy the satisfaction of learning through their own
experience.
The local WS informed us that there is no ART in Waldorf schools. This
is what we would have liked to have known before we enrolled a child
there. Form drawing is fine, but not if free expression is not also
offered. If no free expression is encouraged as a balance, to me, Form
drawing in first grade would be as inhibiting to a child wanting to draw
freely, as it would be to a child who has been encouraged to do so at
home, and suddenly finds this experience totally repressed-unbeknown to
them, for religious reasons. You are quite right: disciples often
become more fanatical than there masters; as I quoted re the line is a
lie, what might have been intended for adults only has been imposed on
early childhood because of Steiner's obsession with reincarnation.
Perhaps he did the best for his time, we need to do better because we
know better due to advances in pedagogy.
Sincerely, Lynette.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2086.6 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Robert Jan Kelder
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 08:52:02 -0800
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References: (LOBBIFGEEJBILODKGLCHAEFJCCAA.winst wxs.nl)
In-Reply-To: (LOBBIFGEEJBILODKGLCHAEFJCCAA.winst wxs.nl)
Dear Mr. Kelder, I'm sharing this with my friends and colleagues on
the waldorf-critics list. I don't engage in private debates with
Anthroposophists or Waldorf supporters.
Today I received a lovely birthday present, a rant from Robert Jan
Kelder, "Founding Director, Willehalm Institute for Anthroposophy,
Amsterdam,
Netherlands." This communication was sent not only to me but to a
long list of Kelder's "friends and colleagues," which I reproduce
here because you may recognize some of them:
, "Goetheanum Wochenschrift" (wochenschrift goetheanum.ch)
, "Nordwall Sune" (thebee hem.passagen.se)
, "Terry Boardman" (terence.boardman cableinet.co.uk)
Hi, guys.
, "Stephen E. Usher" (seusher earthlink.net)
, "AAG" (sekretariat goetheanum.ch)
, "Monnique Miller" (RSteinerNY aol.com)
, "AS Great Britain" (rsh cix.compulink.co.uk)
, "Robert Karp" (robertftf isunet.net)
, "Nelson Willby" (nwillby mistral.co.uk)
, "Novalis" (novalis spectraweb.ch)
, "Motief" (Motief antrop-ver.nl)
, "Michael P. Dobson" (mdobson anthropress.org)
, "Margalit Freeler. Nl" (margalit freeler.nl)
, "Lorenzo Ravagli" (Laurin bigfoot.de)
, "Ken Rogers" (KRogers745 aol.com)
, "Ir. A.C. van der Linden" (kees aacee.nl)
, "June O Lang" (juneo4 juno.com)
, "Patrick Steensma" (info onestop.nl)
, "ASNewZealand" (hmulder xtra.co.nz)
, "Heertsch" (heertsch mens.ch)
Andreas H., leader of the Goetheanum Branch of the AS, who hosted
Rabbi Yonassan Gershom there for a forum on reincarnation and the
Holocaust.
, "Sylvia Witzenmann" (haraldchristoph webtv.net)
, "Hank Passafero" (hank crownrarecoins.com)
, "William Bento (Gradalis College)" (Gradalis2 aol.com)
Astrosopher, heard him lecture at the Waldorf School of the
Peninsula, I read his column in The Peridot.
, "Richard G. Geldard" (geldard netstep.net)
, "Frank T. Smith" (franksmith vdolores.com.ar)
, "Rudolf Saacke" (fenix team.com.pl)
, "Wain Farrants" (FarrantsW aol.com)
, "Rudolf Steiner Elibrary" (elibrarian elib.com)
, "David Andrew Schwartz" (dschwartz ascribes.com)
, "David Gilmartin" (david_gilmartin msn.com)
, "Claus Sproll" (csproll aol.com)
, "Carol Brousseau" (carol.brousseau goetheanum.ch)
, "Butterfly Enterprises" (Butterfly-Enterprises att.net)
, "Blanche" (blanche anthroposophy.org)
, "Bernard Wolf" (BAWOLF6899 aol.com)
, "Martin van der Ven" (azorg casema.net)
, "Guy AGOSTON" (aston1 total.net)
, "AS Phillippines" (asp info.com.ph)
This must be the cell that claims to be converting the Philippines to
The Threefold Social Order (one "L" Robert, it's named for King
Philip of Spain).
, "David Tresemer" (asc dimensional.com)
, "Herman Boswijk" (antrobib xs4all.nl)
, Götz Rehn (AlnaturA t-online.de)
, "ASCanada" (alexandragunther anthroposophical.society.ca)
, "Akta" (akta akta.nl)
, "Aaron Gilmartin" (AGilmartin compuserve.com)
, "Stuart B. Weeks" (73514.624 compuserve.com)
, "David Heaf" (101622.2773 compuserve.com)
UK contact for Ifgene, Anthropop front organization about genetic engineering.
, "Paul H. Sherbow" ( shintofn ix.netcom.com)
It would appear from his addressing whole AS national branches that
Kelder considers what he has to say important to the whole Anthropop
movement. I wonder if they feel the same way.
3/20/00, Robert Jan Kelder wrote:
)Dear Mr Dugan,
)I have just checked your PLANS site for the first time and without going
)into great details at this time I would like to give you my first impression
)as someone with a degree in music and philosophy from McGill University in
)Montreal,
I'm a college dropout myself. Lots of experience with music and
philosophy, though.
)who has closely studied anthroposophy in LA, CA., Dornach,
)Switzerland and Holland (in German, English and Dutch) about four times the
)amount of years you have.
Would that be forty years? Then I'll certainly consider you to be an expert.
)And also as someone who is known and perhaps even
)feared by some anthroposophists as a critic, but then a critic from within
)and not from without as many of the "rational" crackpots spouting their
)nonsence on your site.
(gumpvoice) Crackpots is as crackpots does (/gumpvoice) Is this the
pot calling the kettle black?
)Well, I am dismayed at the site's predominantly biased, uncritical and
)incomplete portrayal of Rudolf Steiner and his anthroposophy as a genuine
)spiritual science based on a critical, i.e. not naive epistemology.
Science it ain't. If one can be sophisticated and naive at the same
time, Anthroposophy is both.
)Your
)list of articles from Holland e.g. include none of the many articles and
)booklets by anthroposophists reputing the politically correct attacks and
)insinuations made here by incompetent journalists and would-be philosophers
)against the integrity of R. Steiner,
Of course not. You have your own presses cranking your your
propaganda. I take it you're not too happy with your European critics.
)including a booklet called "Geen sprake
)van..." that I wrote with three other anthro authors on the "Van Barda
)interim report on A. and the question of racism", which itself includes
)politically correct segments, as some anthro's themselves are beginning to
)soften up and become clouded and fearful in the face of massive attacks from
)a.o. so-called anti-racist organisations heavily sponsored by the Dutch
)governments, who, to put it bluntly, in order to justify their existence are
)constantly on the lookout for their prey... I have talked to some of these
)experts denouncing Steiner, who have never even read a word by him.
)Of course A. has been misused by some so-called anthro's, but that is no
)reason to throw away the baby with the bathwater as you, respectively your
)site does so unabashedly.
The baby has failed to thrive, due to lack of an essential nutrient,
critical thinking.
)Is this what you call free speech and Pacific
)Justice; it's more like lynch justice of the days of the Wild West. The
)translators of the Dutch articles, including that smear pamphlet by T.
)Jeurissen without any scientific basis
This isn't science, it's politics. A Waldorf parent, deeply disturbed
by racism in her child's lesson books, was courageous enough to stand
up to the system. (See the article on the PLANS web site).
)(it already denounces R. Steiner as a
)racist on the first page) ought to be ashamed of their bias in presenting
)only their clouded side of the story. That new article e.g. on A. and
)ecofacism has so many errors, that it would be no use to enter into a
)discussion with the author except to say that he should spend a couple of
)more years doing serious research before venturing out into the open with
)his marxist tainted heap of bias and materialistic half truths.
One wouldn't expect the far right Anthropops to enjoy sniping from
the left. Is that "materialistic" the code word that used to mean
Jewish?
)A. is an impartial discipline, read e.g. the book,if you can, "Die
)Voraussetzungslosigkeit der Anthroposophie - Eine Einführung in die
)Geisteswissenschaft Rudolf Steiners" by the foremost anthro philosopher of
)the 20th century, Herbert Witzenmann, my former teacher who died in 1988 and
)who unfortunately is still practically unknown in the West, partly because
)he has received too little support from the antro's themselves, which is now
)beginning to boomerang in the sense that A. has done too little to update
)and scientifically justify itself as a spiritual humanism of the first
)order.
Sounds like a faction. I'm starting to see why other Anthropops might
see you as a pain in the ass.
)There are many internal factors, which I cannot go into now, playing in the
)heart of the anthro movement that are indeed rotten and completely against
)what Rudolf Steiner advocated.
Ah, yes, factions arguing about who's truer to the guru's vision.
)One symptom of this is that the Waldorf
)Schools were supposed to be free, that is free from the meddling hands of
)state or government support, an aspect that has been forgotten or trespassed
)on by many so-called anthro's. In Holland for example, the Waldorf Schools
)have all but been sucked up by the State which has led to a beginning
)rebellion by teachers and parents to begin state-free schools. There I see a
)positive aspect of your criticism, which you could perhaps accentuate, if
)you have not done so already. Another symptom is the movement for social
)reform which I call social organics based on the harmonious insight into the
)workings of the three production factors nature (land), labor and capital,
)which make up the social organism; there is nothing of a social biology in
)this, not even most of the anthro's, however, have grasped R. Steiner's
)ideas given in his lectures on World Economy, let alone implemented them. If
)I said that he also expected that this new principle of civilization would
)succeed that grand old dame Democracy, who has after all been around for
)more than 2000 years, you would have more ammunition to decry this as an
)anti-democratic statement which it is not, it is a post-democratic appeal.
)Read Herbert Witzenmann's essays on that (see catalogue enclosed) which I
)have translated for the English speaking world
Were you talking to me? I think you've gone off on a habitual rant.
What's "post-democratic"? Could you summarize for us?
)As I said, this is only a first, not fully substantiated, impression after
)spending some hours on your site. I include the catalogue of my Willehalm
)Research Institute with a list of some English publications. I hope to
)return to your site soon to write an article on it for the monthly Dutch
)newsletter "Kringnieuws" (Circle News)published by the Cicle for A. for wich
)I am the main editor. This four year old Circle was formed in Holland as a
)reaction against the failings of the Durch Anthro Society who published the
)said Van Baarda interim report and who is bringing out the final report on
)April 1.
Factions again. Are you sure you want to wave this dirty laundry in public?
)In closing, I can't say I wish you much luck with your present PLANS,
)perhaps I could wish you in general to come to your senses and to stop
)attacking the honor and good name of one of the greatest, if not the
)greatest friend of humanity and the earth of the previous century.
Pretentious pronouncements don't make greatness, except to the naive.
)In the
)end you are only attacking your own higher self, the image of the man and of
)a just free society that you and I want to become and create.
I don't know that my "free society" and yours are at all the same. Do
you use Steiner's definition of "freedom" meaning "spiritual
activity"?
)Robert Jan Kelder,
)Founding Director, Willehalm Institute for Anthroposophy, Amsterdam,
)Netherlands.
)
)Copy to friends and colleagues
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2086.7 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Response to Paulina Leonard.
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 21:53:52 -0800
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References: (200003200259.SAA15734 lists1.best.com)
(200003201823.KAA11459 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200003201823.KAA11459 lists1.best.com)
3/20/00, paulina leonard wrote:
)When confronted with the special ed child I'm beyond
)grateful to be able to pick up McAllen's books for help.
Whoa, Paulina, you're in big trouble here. McAllen substitutes white
magic rituals for any meaningful treatment of learning disabilities.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2086.8 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 21:10:27 -0800
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References: (200003171447.GAA01689 lists1.best.com)
(200003181659.IAA17574 lists1.best.com)
(200003192033.MAA06389 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200003192033.MAA06389 lists1.best.com)
3/19/00, Sune Nordwall wrote:
)Knowing that, as you probably do too, one sees how polemically
)insinuant and basically untrue your comment is, in the sense of
)implying that Waldorf teachers for some reason would use pure 'water'
)in treating 'minor accidents' ascribing some sort of magical power to
)it.
"Magical Power" is exactly what homeopathy is about, cloaked in pseudoscience.
Anthroposophical medicine takes homeopathy to another level, in a way
a more honest one. AM ignores the pseudoscientific "proving"
technique of homeopathy, and prefers to select remedies based on
medieval correspondences based on the appearances of the plants.
)As you probably also know, in any way seriously mistreating
)children or other patients makes any licenced MD (including
)anthroposophical MD:s who don't stop being MD:s when starting to
)practice also anthroposophical medicine) very soon would make him or
)her lose their licence.
There's hope there. Wasn't Anthropop author and Dr. Incao run out of
New York State for unscientific practices? I think he's set up shop
in the new Anthropop power center in Colorado.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2086.9 ---------------
From: paulina leonard (pkleonard sprintmail.com)
Subject: Re: PS
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 14:11:58 -0500
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Dan Dugan wrote:
) 3/19/00, paulina leonard wrote:
)
) )- Secondly, Alan, if you read this I just wanted to mention that you are
) )totally off base in regard to humans and a group soul. You really
) )should read more Steiner before you quote him. Humans are not part
) )of a group soul.
)
) "Besides their character, families, nations and races have also their
) destiny. ... Besides the separate individuals, a very real family and
) national group soul and racial spirit is at work in the life of a
) family, a people, or a race. Indeed, in a certain sense the separate
) individuals are merely the executive organs of these family group
) souls, racial spirits, and so on....In the truest sense, everyone
) receives his allotted task from his family, national or racial group
) soul." [Steiner, 1904, KHW pp. 240-241]
Indeed, in a certain sense you, Dan, as a separate individual
are also merely only one of a number of executive organs or
members of your own immediate blood or adopted family,
your ancestral group, your racial and cultural origins, etc.
You, are, nevertheless, a single entity in terms of you ego, you "I".
When you die you do not go back to a group soul as do species
who are part of a group soul.
That was my point in what I said to Alan.
Many Jews (not Hassidic, because they do believe in reincarnation)
do not believe in an individual survival after death. That is why the
appropriate, respectful term to use to a Jew at the loss of a loved
on is "My his (or her) memory be a blessing".
Paulina
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2086.10 ---------------
From: paulina leonard (pkleonard sprintmail.com)
Subject: Re: Response to Paulina Leonard.
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 14:26:55 -0500
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References: (200003200259.SAA15734 lists1.best.com)
(200003201823.KAA11459 lists1.best.com) (200003211741.JAA06931 lists1.best.com)
Dan Dugan wrote:
) 3/20/00, paulina leonard wrote:
)
) )When confronted with the special ed child I'm beyond
) )grateful to be able to pick up McAllen's books for help.
)
) Whoa, Paulina, you're in big trouble here.
Quite the opposite!
I've said before here that I've used McAllen's simple testing
procedures on all my students to determine their body
geography when they enroll in my class.
Never once in all these years (decades) have I found one
single special ed student who did not have cross body
geography. This is in stark contrast to the students not
labeld or placed in special ed classes - BD, LD, etc., who
show in these simple testing proceudres consistent evidence
of the necessary body dominance that facilitates normal
progress in learning in a traditional setting.
) McAllen substitutes white
) magic rituals for any meaningful treatment of learning disabilities.
Get real here, Dan.
You have used the term white magic ritual, so, please, define
the term. What do you mean by such an outlandish statement?
Additionally, please direct me to one single remedial exercise
in "The Extra Lesson" that you consider to be in the category.
McAllen's work in this book is about developmental body
topology (my term) not magic ritual.
Arrguhh!
The deficit in public education is missing most exactly the
pedagogical insights available in Waldorf!
I am in agreement that Waldorf training should begin
to include the child development courses found in state
certified programs, but, Dan, no system is prefect.
No one here can seriously say that our nation's public
education is succeeding. Mainstream education is just
as bad as Waldorf about going around ignoring vital
research data.
Little, _very_ little of what we learned about the brain
makes its way down into the public classroom.
Mainstream education just tends to takes up snippets,
attaches jargon to the snippets, such as "Whole Brain Learning",
holds a workshop or two and moves on. There is no real
content nor application whatsoever. Madeline Hunter in the
late 70's made her reputation from the whole brain workshops
and her book. Where did her method, limited though it was go?
Did book publishers take notice and alter the format of their
books? Did state universities adjust their training programs
to include the relevant research?
No.
And, what, please tell me is more relevant to education than how
the brain and body work together?
What Waldorf has to offer in regard to this could keep untold
children from being labeled special ed and experiencing a lifetime
of failure and low self-esteem.
I've seen the consequences of this kind of labeling, Dan.
Your post really tears me up because I've seen what McAllen's
body of work can do to help the special ed child.
To call the body exercises McAllen developed white magic
is tototally misunderstand the issue and importance of
topology in the developing child.
Very sad.
Gotta run...
Paulina
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2086 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2087 --------------
001 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - On the art of changing subject ... (Was: Re: Peter Farrell ...
002 - momof2gals mindspring.com - to Paulina
003 - "Luke Schelly" (lschelly - RE: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching
004 - "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2ga - more on lines as natural expression
005 - "David Cann" (canndw netz - Re: Anthropop doctors (was: Peter Farrell on Goethe and scienc
006 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: more on lines as natural expression
007 - Peter Farrell (peter.farr - RE: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching (long)
008 - Peter Farrell (peter.farr - RE: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching (long)
009 - David (waldorfedu access1 - Off topic - a few of my "best"
010 - "David Cann" (canndw netz - Re: Off topic - a few of my "best"
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2087.1 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: On the art of changing subject ... (Was: Re: Peter Farrell ...)
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 21:31:13 +0100
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References: (200003171447.GAA01689 lists1.best.com)
(200003181659.IAA17574 lists1.best.com)
(200003192033.MAA06389 lists1.best.com) (200003211745.JAA09671 lists1.best.com)
Dan wrote:
Dan:
) Homeopathic remedies are often administered by Waldorf teachers for
) minor accidents; ...
I answered showing how that very improbably is not true (as Dan does
not specify the remedies used for treating the minor accidents, it is
difficult to be completely sure):
Me:
If you by 'homeopathic' mean all types of remedies based on natural
substances it would be true. But the remedies you probably refer to I
imagine would be Arnica elixir (a well known remedy used to treat
bruises and swellings), and Calendula elixir (an in herbal medicine
probably equally well known remedy used in the treatment of smaller
wounds) both used in diluted form or as salve and not used because of
any special 'homeopathic' effect, but mainly for their very
physiologically based effects.
(and)
) )Knowing that, as you probably do too, one sees how polemically
) )insinuant and basically untrue your comment is, in the sense of
) )implying that Waldorf teachers for some reason would use pure 'water'
) )in treating 'minor accidents' ascribing some sort of magical power to
) )it.
Dan's answers avoiding the point; that he was wrong in describing the
elixirs/salves in question as 'homeopathic' which he put forth as a
sort of implied 'proof' of how absurd the treatment of medical
problems of children at Waldorf schools should be, by changing the
subject:
Dan:
) "Magical Power" is exactly what homeopathy is about, cloaked in pseudoscience.
[snip]
Me:
) )As you probably also know, in any way seriously mistreating
) )children or other patients makes any licenced MD (including
) )anthroposophical MD:s who don't stop being MD:s when starting to
) )practice also anthroposophical medicine) very soon would make him or
) )her lose their licence.
Dan:
) There's hope there. Wasn't Anthropop author and Dr. Incao run out of
) New York State for unscientific practices? I think he's set up shop
) in the new Anthropop power center in Colorado.
See:
http://goodlight.net/vacexpert/pastprob.htm at
http://goodlight.net/vacexpert/
Dr Incao:
************************************************
I was investigated by the New York State Health Department in 1988 to
determine if there was any negligence in my treatment of patients. The
office was never shut down but 30 patient charts were confiscated and
examined for evidence of negligence. None was found and no charges
were ever brought. The whole case was quietly dropped without any
official statement of dismissal or exoneration. It was a "fishing
expedition" that came up with nothing. A friendly source within the
Health Department confided to me that my position on vaccinations was
the real impetus for the investigation.
************************************************
Me:
Personally I would not call what seems to have been a possible
harassment by authorities that lead to nothing very interesting as any
sort of 'proof' that anthroposophical MD:s in any general sense or in
any specific case having mistreated their patients in a way that would
be considered the basis for criticism or withdrawing their medical
license, which was what you implied by stating that you 'knew' that
anthroposophical MD:s consciously had sent kids with meningitis that
needed treatment to daycare, implying maybe you did not 'know' what
you said you knew ...?
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2087.2 ---------------
From: momof2gals mindspring.com
Subject: to Paulina
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 15:49:40 -0500
Paulina, it's Lisa Ercolano here. I am writing from work, so only my
screen name comes up.
I have been following with great interest the dialogue between
yourself and others (Diana, Dan and Lynette, to name three) about the
use of Waldorf techniques in education. You have offered some insights
into how you, an art teacher in a non-Steiner school, have benefitted
(and thus how your students have benefitted) from your working out of
Waldorf monographs.
My basic question is this: are you pro-Waldorf education? Do you
support Waldorf education -- not as you would like it to be, but as it
truly is administered and carried out in schools today?
Please understand that I do not mean this question to be
confrontational; you and I have had a great many friendly discussions
on a variety of subjects offlist, and I have deeply valued the
friendship and support -- as well as insights -- that you have offered
as a human being.
But as I read your public posts, I find myself confused as to where
you stand on Waldorf as a whole, and why. Can you help me with t
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2087.3 ---------------
From: "Luke Schelly" (lschelly JackRouse.com)
Subject: RE: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching
Date: 21 Mar 2000 16:54:46 -0500
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Peter Farrell (peter.farrell vu.edu.au) posted
)I would also like to refer to Daniel Sabsay's contribution to this
)particular discussion. I suspect that he and I agree on the technical
)issues in this discussion. I can't help but observe that his contribution
)was less than helpful. If you want to change someone's mind you don't call
)them deluded. My guess is that most of us are deluded about something. A
)response like Luke Schelly's was predictable and also less than helpful.
)What's the point?
An equal and opposite waste of bandwidth. Mostly (bad) humor. I always like to chirp back in kind to the chirpers.
FWIW, I don't subscribe to much/any Homeopathy and alt. medicines either but that doesn't mean I am ready to go along with tossing the whole kit and kaboodle. I prefer to remain open to the possibilty that it will get more attention by the science community (in both the mechanisms searching and efficacy evaluation that you posted before)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2087.4 ---------------
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: more on lines as natural expression
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:01:03 -0500
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I don't think there is any question that children naturally express
themselves using lines.
You can spout all the theories in the world, but all you really have to
do is give any child in any kindergarten classroom a pencil, pen or crayon,
and you'll be gifted with a drawing made of lines.
Only in the Waldorf kindergarten is it considered ``healthy'' and ``soul
enriching'' for this natural impulse to be stunted. I have observed first
hand many times children who, frustrated by their inability to make lines
and form an image with the slippery wet-on-wet technique, end up using some
sharp object to scratch the image into the wet and soggy paper!
I've seen children use their fingernails and one little boy I know --
who wanted very much to draw a truck -- cleverly used the edge of a button
on his cardigan.
* Can some anthroposopher or anthro student PLEASE explain WHY Steiner
advises against children of a young age using lines? I have seen the quote
about a line being a ``lie'' and an artifact from a ``former life,'' but I
have no idea what it really means.
What does Steiner theorize will happen if young children draw with
lines?
I am certain that the answer has little to do with actual art and
everything to do with that ``hardening'' that Steiner was so afraid would
happen to children who simply go about doing the things that children
naturally do -- like draw using lines!
Yes, I am being sarcastic! But I really do wonder what danger Steiner
saw in 4 year olds scrawling with crayons.
The issue of what color crayons (and paints) children in the Waldorf
kindergarten are permitted is another issue entirely.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2087.5 ---------------
From: "David Cann" (canndw netzero.net)
Subject: Re: Anthropop doctors (was: Peter Farrell on Goethe and scienceteaching)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 17:46:16 -0500
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David Cann wrote:
))I am quite sure that association with anthroposophical (sp?) doctors is
))voluntary on the part of the school. We had an agreement with one for
years
))(he visited once every week or two), but don't anymore. No one seems the
))worse for it.
to which Dan repled:
)What could it be other than voluntary?
)
David again:
Well, if somebody in a position of authority was really telling schools to
have anthroposophical physicians, it could be a requirement. As it stands
in the real world, though, you're quite right.
I was just pointing out that there's nothing really telling schools to have
anthroposophic doctors.
David
__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2087.6 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: more on lines as natural expression
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 23:44:55 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
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[Lisa wrote:]
)I don't think there is any question that children naturally express
)themselves using lines. I have observed first
)hand many times children who, frustrated by their inability to make lines
)and form an image with the slippery wet-on-wet technique, end )up using
)some sharp object to scratch the image into the wet and )soggy paper!
) I've seen children use their fingernails and one little boy I )know --
)who wanted very much to draw a truck -- cleverly used the )edge of a button
)on his cardigan.
Yes, this was an endless frustration to the Waldorf kindergarten teachers I
knew (how to prevent the scratching on the watercolor painting!) I heard
many theories spun about why children do this; at the time it didn't
actually even occur to me that they wanted to make lines, but I guess it
should have been obvious. (Usually it was something the parents were doing
wrong, some way they were mishandling the child's temperament.) Another
thing they do to express resentment is *pour* big globs of paint on the
paper and make puddles. After a few go-rounds with the watercolors they want
to do something else, and if you are forbidden to draw, you find other ways
to manipulate your materials! You can at least make a nice big mess that
will aggravate the teacher when she has to clean it up.
If I have told this story before, forgive me, but it was very eye-opening
for me at the time and really stayed with me. Once on painting day, as soon
as he got his hands on paints and brush a boy sitting at my table
enthusiastically drew big zig-zag lines across his paper. He was very
pleased and enjoying himself greatly and saying "Look, look" to all around
him. I admired it profusely mostly in the hopes that if *I* admired it, he
would not feel the need to also show the teacher, because I knew what she
would say. The zig zags reminded him of the back of a Stegosaurus and he
proceeded to complete the Stegosaurus. I knew this was trouble, and sure
enough when he finished he showed it to the teacher very enthusiastically,
and got basically a tongue lashing, "We don't draw pictures! G__, you know
we don't draw pictures! The color wants to come and play. We just let the
color come, next time I want you to just let the color come!" She really
burst his bubble (and mine, about how "nurturing" Waldorf is, and how we
were supposed to be "preserving childhood for children").
Diana
) * Can some anthroposopher or anthro student PLEASE explain WHY Steiner
)advises against children of a young age using lines? I have seen the quote
)about a line being a ``lie'' and an artifact from a ``former life,'' but I
)have no idea what it really means.
) What does Steiner theorize will happen if young children draw with
)lines?
) I am certain that the answer has little to do with actual art and
)everything to do with that ``hardening'' that Steiner was so afraid would
)happen to children who simply go about doing the things that children
)naturally do -- like draw using lines!
) Yes, I am being sarcastic! But I really do wonder what danger Steiner
)saw in 4 year olds scrawling with crayons.
) The issue of what color crayons (and paints) children in the Waldorf
)kindergarten are permitted is another issue entirely.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2087.7 ---------------
From: Peter Farrell (peter.farrell vu.edu.au)
Subject: RE: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching (long)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 11:03:54 +1100
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Now you're talking Chand. Thanks for the references. You've given me some
reading to do so I may not comment for a while on this particular issue.
I'm glad they are all recent and in journals not on my normal reading list,
so I can be forgiven (I hope) for not being aware of them.
There are some comments I can make straight away. With the exception of the
Journal of Traditional Chinese Medicine, the journals listed are high
quality peer reviewed journals with no obvious vested interest in
maintaining acupuncture. Some might argue that the Journal of Traditional
Chinese Medicine may have such a vested interest. This increases the
probability that there is merit in the papers. Secondly, I note that the
papers refer to specific processes occuring in recognisable structures in
the human body. They do not talk about the flow of Qi as being responsible
for any effect. In this sense the papers not only provide support for the
use of acupuncture, they destroy the traditional theoretical basis for
acupuncture. This is precisely the sort of evidence that might change my
mind about acupuncture provided the data stand up to scrutiny. Let's see
what happens. I might yet have to apologise to my acupuncturist mates.
If Chand finds a heart is not a pump paper am I allowed to cook my hat?
Perhaps a soup might be nice.
Peter
Peter Farrell Phone (+613) 9688 4282
Optical Technology Research Laboratory Fax (+613) 9688 4698
School of Communications and Informatics(F119)
Victoria University Email peter.farrell vu.edu.au
PO Box 14428 MCMC
Melbourne 8001 Australia
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2087.8 ---------------
From: Peter Farrell (peter.farrell vu.edu.au)
Subject: RE: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching (long)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 11:10:04 +1100
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Chand talks about the published evidence for magnetic therapy which is
consistent with no effect.
)
)Are you ready to retire your lasers yet, Peter? (If not lasers, how do
you bore
) the sodium?)
I've moved on to rubidium, potassium and lithium and the rare earths and I
find I don't need lasers to bore these elements. My undergraduate students
don't like my jokes either.
Peter
Peter Farrell Phone (+613) 9688 4282
Optical Technology Research Laboratory Fax (+613) 9688 4698
School of Communications and Informatics(F119)
Victoria University Email peter.farrell vu.edu.au
PO Box 14428 MCMC
Melbourne 8001 Australia
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2087.9 ---------------
From: David (waldorfedu access1.net)
Subject: Off topic - a few of my "best"
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 17:03:24 -0800
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Thanks for the jokes - I guess I like people to be consistent so I'll
wait to see if you have abused the list and are unsubscribed; if not I
guess it is one rule for some, and one rule for others. Now that IMHO is
an abuse of power :-)
David Mollet
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 15:31:36 -0700
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Well, I havent been to a hundred Grateful Dead shows, but I have made up
over a hundred psychiatry and medical jokes. Since I tend to be dead
serious on the list, I thought I'd share a few of my creations, some of
which have achieved a measure of popularity. Feel free to spread them
around, (once the groaning dies down) I love it when one of my own jokes
gets back to me.
1) (Inspired by the recent movie, as well as the story). What did the
doctor have to do when the Headless Horseman passed away?
- He had to notify the necks of kin!
2) Why did Frankenstein get depressed after his brain transplant?
- He started feeling rejected!
3) What happens when you get depressed and paranoid?
- You start feeling pursued by nobody very special
4) Quickie guide to mental health: What do you do if -
you have anxiety?
- don't worry about it
you have depression?
- don't let it get you down
you have insomnia?
- don't lose any sleep over it
you get paranoid?
- don't let it get to you
you are obsessive compulsive?
- don't give it another thought!
k enough, next patient's here, and I better not give up my day job.
Alan Fine
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2087.10 ---------------
From: "David Cann" (canndw netzero.net)
Subject: Re: Off topic - a few of my "best"
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 21:54:45 -0500
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David,
I don't think so (about abusing the list, I mean). Let it go.
By the way, my daughter (all my kids just HAVE to read my email over my
shoulder) loved Alan's "headless horseman" joke below.
-- (the other) David.
-----Original Message-----
From: David (waldorfedu access1.net)
To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com (waldorf-critics lists.best.com)
Date: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 8:06 PM
Subject: Off topic - a few of my "best"
)Thanks for the jokes - I guess I like people to be consistent so I'll
)wait to see if you have abused the list and are unsubscribed; if not I
)guess it is one rule for some, and one rule for others. Now that IMHO is
)an abuse of power :-)
__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2087 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2088 --------------
001 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: Response to Paulina Leonard.
002 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: Reincarnation and materialism
003 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: Off topic - a few of my "best"
004 - Chand.Desai mcmail.vander - Re: more on lines as natural expression
005 - Chand.Desai mcmail.vander - RE: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching (long)
006 - paulina leonard (pkleonar - Re: to Paulina
007 - "Jim Staffnik" (staffnik - Re: Response to Paulina Leonard.
008 - njpmail mindspring.com (Y - Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n2082
009 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Admin: your message format and ListQuest archives
010 - "Sarina McDonald" (pandor - Brief Comments on Recent Events
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2088.1 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Response to Paulina Leonard.
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 03:01:40 GMT
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Everyone,
Please excuse if I sent this already. I was working on it earlier today but
couldn't get on-line, and now I'm not sure it was sent or not.
Paulina,
Thank you for your very detailed response. The only part I'm really still
confused about is in what way the line is part of the memory of life before
birth.
[Paulina and Lynnette are discussing a Steiner quote:]
) "Art in the Light of Mystery Wisdom" - Steiner, R. p 68.
)"...We must take great care to allow colour to govern our painting )and not
)line. In painting the line is a lie; the line is always part )of the memory
)of life before birth...."
I appreciate that in practical terms Steiner may not have been giving
pedagogical advice, but later Waldorf adherents may have interpreted it thus
(I can attest that some do).
[various snips from Paulina's response which I am trying to understand as a
whole:]
)there is no such _reality_ as _line_but it was rather a convenient
) )concept/definition in both art and math.)
and
)Yes, he was speaking about the spiritual behind the material
)world, the consequences of our life before birth, our experiences
)as we pass from sleeping to waking consciousness, but I think it
)important not to leave the man, Steiner, out of his time period.
)Historically the world of the arts, all of the arts, had been shatter
)by the discovery of the atom.
)The material world as people knew it was no
)longer a world of _solid_ reality.
)If one studies the work and writings of the artists of that
)time period I don't see how Steiner's statement in regard to
)line can be found to be so upsetting.
I don't find it upsetting, I'm just trying to understand in what way the
line has to do with experiences before birth. Is this just sort of a
metaphor, because you seem to be saying (and Kandinsky, other writers you
discuss said) the line has no material reality? (I'm just picturing
spiritual soon-to-be-neonates floating around in the spirit world, with
*lines* all around them . . . and I can't figure out what in the world these
lines are for, or about, or why the young child should be discouraged from
remembering them . . . aren't they supposed to be encouraged to stay in
touch with the spirit world from which they have recently come?
)Perhaps the Waldorf intent is to compensate for harsh or
)too immediate an incarnating process? A _reaction_ to
)the absurd push for earlier and earlier cognition that has been
)going on now for about two decades?
Well, if it began two decades ago, that is long after Steiner was gone, and
if Waldorf is supposed to be pure Steiner, then this can't be the reason
they do this, can it? Or are they just extrapolating what Steiner might have
said about earlier academics. Like they are extrapolating what Steiner might
have said about electronic media.
Thanks, sincerely. Perhaps I'm just being thick, but this is still foggy to
me.
Diana
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2088.2 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Reincarnation and materialism
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 03:27:16 GMT
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[Terry]
)What I'm saying is that racism, like other poisonous 'isms' like )sexism,
)ageism, chauvinism stems from a fixation on bodies, on )'physical'
)attributes - from the idea that we are essentially or )entirely physical
)beings.
)reincarnation is a key feature of the new spiritual movement
)of the New Age and affirms the idea that the human individual
)is essentially a spiritual being who wears material "clothes" (DNA, )race,
)sex,)
I would just note that reincarnation does suggest this, but other people who
do *not* accept reincarnation also believe that humans are spiritual beings
wearing material "clothes."
)Those who "believe" in the cosmic heat death prescribed by the )Second Law
)of Thermodynamics must come to terms with the notion that )all of human
)love and culture is totally meaningless and pointless.
What??! There aren't any scientific theories that would convince me human
love and culture are meaningless and pointless. This isn't about being
"heroic" (snipped that part, actually) but it seems to me this is just
saying anybody who doesn't buy every intricacy of anthroposophy is a
complete cynic with no beliefs or values at all, and with our crass lack of
human feeling why should we even want to live?!
[Terry]
)Conventional Christians believe they are created as souls by God for )this
)one life and after death, will be with God in a vague place )called
)"Heaven"
Well, it's not so vague to some people. I'm not Christian but you're quite
oversimplifying Christian beliefs; it's quite a stretch to brand any
Christians other than your own sect "materialists." You have to make it
sound like just *one* physical life and death is a piffling, trivial thing
and anybody who would settle for it is somehow lacking spiritual depth. My
one physical life and death -- if it turns out that's what I've got --
aren't trivial to me.
Diana
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2088.3 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Off topic - a few of my "best"
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 03:33:54 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
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[David Cann wrote:]
)(all my kids just HAVE to read my email over my
)shoulder
Yikes, another Waldorf purity alert. Aren't your children preadolescent?
Reading your email?!
______________________________________________________
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2088.4 ---------------
From: Chand.Desai mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Subject: Re: more on lines as natural expression
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:04:08 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
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[Lisa]:
)I have observed first
)hand many times children who, frustrated by their inability to make lines
)and form an image with the slippery wet-on-wet technique, end up using some
)sharp object to scratch the image into the wet and soggy paper!
I have seen this too. These paintings are not the teacher's favorites.
Chand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2088.5 ---------------
From: Chand.Desai mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Subject: RE: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching (long)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:13:09 -0600
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Peter,
I am glad that you find some merit in the references I posted. I too am
more comfortable with the idea that acupuncture needles affect us through some
normal mechanism like stimulating nerves. I have heard, though, that
acupuncture points do not correspond to any anatomical system such as nerves or
veins. For this reason I would be careful about the conclusion:
)Secondly, I note that the
)papers refer to specific processes occuring in recognisable structures in
)the human body. They do not talk about the flow of Qi as being responsible
)for any effect. In this sense the papers not only provide support for the
)use of acupuncture, they destroy the traditional theoretical basis for
)acupuncture.
Furthermore, for all I know about Qi, it may refer to something(s) more
traditional in the Western sense.
Chand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2088.6 ---------------
From: paulina leonard (pkleonard sprintmail.com)
Subject: Re: to Paulina
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:46:41 -0500
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References: (200003212050.MAA17692 lists1.best.com)
momof2gals mindspring.com wrote:
) Paulina, it's Lisa Ercolano here. I am writing from work, so only my
) screen name comes up.
)
) I have been following with great interest the dialogue between
) yourself and others (Diana, Dan and Lynette, to name three) about the
) use of Waldorf techniques in education. You have offered some insights
) into how you, an art teacher in a non-Steiner school, have benefitted
) (and thus how your students have benefitted) from your working out of
) Waldorf monographs.
)
) My basic question is this: are you pro-Waldorf education?
Hello, Lisa.
I'm certainly not anti-Waldorf.
Surely you aren't either. Right? I mean you still have your
little girl in a WE school don't you? If memory serves I believe
that your problems with your fourth grader arose from the
teacher, not the system, not the school, and that you are
still very happy and pleased with your kindergartner's experience,
correct? At least that is what I understand from your posts.
) Do you
) support Waldorf education -- not as you would like it to be, but as it
) truly is administered and carried out in schools today?
Too brand a question.
How would I know how WE is "truly" administered and carried out
in _all_ the schools today?
I only know how the schools I am or have been affiliated with have
been administered. None of them are Waldorf, I kave no working
personal knowledge of an WE school's adimistration,ergo, I do no
to qualify to pass judgment on _all_ schools, WE or otherwise.
I know that don't like what Debbie reported about Max's experiences
with the silks.
I said that.
I know I don't like past life karma coming into play in the discussion
of a child's educational problems or pedagogy.
I've said that.
There are certain reports that disturb me, but, do I then jump to being
anti-Waldorf? Absolutely not. The public school system in this country
is abysmal. Am I anti- public education? No!
Do I advocate throwing down the Republic because things don't work
as well as they should in this democracy? Of coure not.
) Please understand that I do not mean this question to be
) confrontational; you and I have had a great many friendly discussions
) on a variety of subjects offlist, and I have deeply valued the
) friendship and support -- as well as insights -- that you have offered
) as a human being.
I don't take your question as being confrontational, but, only as being
indicative of how very differently we think.
There are no absolutes here for me.
I perceive from the reports by both parents and teachers that
there are Waldorf schools that function very well and do, indeed,
deliver on the Waldorf promise, and, on the other hand, I can
see that there are also instances where a school and or an individual
teacher does not deliver on that promise.
If I understand your situation I believe you are not unhappy with the
school you have been affiliated with, but only with an individual teacher
and in regard to that teacher only unhappy in the past year or so.
Correct?
)But as I read your public posts, I find myself confused as to where
)you stand on Waldorf as a whole, and why. Can you help me with t
I'm sorry you are confused, Lisa. I do find it unfortunate that you of
all people would be confused about my position. I've never changed
this position. I've always been stright with you and supportive in your
difficulites. I was then and continue to be a serious student of Steiner's
Anthroposophical world view.
I don't agree with all the conclusions that others, pro and con, draw
from what Steiner said. I don't like quotes taken out of context
about Steiner, the Bible, Shakespeare, ee.cummings or anything else.
i don't know what else to say to you.
Nothing exists in a vacuum.
To be honest, Lisa, I sometimes feel you don't really read very closely.
For instance, I posted about the "line as lie" issue yesterday and just
now
your post comes in asking about this as if it had never been talked about.
Best,
Paulina
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2088.7 ---------------
From: "Jim Staffnik" (staffnik cybertrails.com)
Subject: Re: Response to Paulina Leonard.
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:40:11 -0700
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My name is Jim Staffnik and I am interested in Waldorf remedial techniques.
Paulina you have piqued my interest more so because you seem to know what
you are talking about in this area. Would you please answer some questions
for me. I have attached them to your post to Dan Dugan regarding his
comments about white magic. If my questions appear basic, uninformed and
naive I apologize. You are dealing with ignorance in the area of Waldorf
special education. Thanks, Jim
----------
) From: paulina leonard (pkleonard sprintmail.com)
) To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com
) Subject: Re: Response to Paulina Leonard.
) Date: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 12:26 PM
)
)
)
) Dan Dugan wrote:
)
) ) 3/20/00, paulina leonard wrote:
) )
) ) )When confronted with the special ed child I'm beyond
) ) )grateful to be able to pick up McAllen's books for help.
) )
) ) Whoa, Paulina, you're in big trouble here.
)
) Quite the opposite!
)
) I've said before here that I've used McAllen's simple testing
) procedures on all my students to determine their body
) geography when they enroll in my class.
What testing procedures are used to determine body geography? Are they
outlined in a book? If so where? Is body geography the only thing
assessed?
At what ages do children enroll in your class? Is the testing procedure
the same for all children of all ages? What class do you teach? Is it a
special education class?
)
) Never once in all these years (decades) have I found one
) single special ed student who did not have cross body
) geography.
How long have you been testing children? How many children have you tested
that are special ed students? How do you know they are special ed
students? Are you told when they enter your class that they are special ed
students or do you find out they have special needs after you test them and
find they have cross body geography? Do children with language disabilities
have the same type of cross body geography as students with learning
disabilities or emotional disabilities? Do children with reading
disabilities have the same cross body geography as children with math
disabilities or color blindness, or hearing impairments, or vision
impairments, or physical disabilities like a club foot, or traumatic brain
injury, or attention deficit disorder, or asthma, or congenital heart
defects, or other health impairments that lead to impaired classroom
performance? Do children with different types of emotional problems have
different types of cross body geography? For example, does a child with
depression manifest cross body geography the same way as a child with
schizophrenia, conduct disorder, separation anxiety disorder, school
phobia, post traumatic stress disorder, bipolar disorder or other condition
that would affect the child's classroom performance? Do slow learners have
cross body geography? Do children with mental retardation have cross body
geography?
What is cross body geography? How is the presence of cross body geography
determined? Are there degrees of cross body geography? In other words is
there a continuum of cross body geography that is recognizable, or is it
simply present or not present?
This is in stark contrast to the students not
) labeld or placed in special ed classes - BD, LD, etc., who
) show in these simple testing proceudres consistent evidence
) of the necessary body dominance that facilitates normal
) progress in learning in a traditional setting.
How many children have you tested that are not special ed students? How do
you know that they are not special ed students? Do all student in special
education classes have cross body geography and all students not in special
education classes have the necessary body dominance? Do some students not
in special education have cross body geography? Have they been tested for
some reason before you see them? Do you use the presence or absence of
cross body geography to decide if a child is a special education student?
What is evidence of body dominance? When is a lack of body dominance
considered a problem? What is done if lack of body dominance is found and
it is considered a problem? How does body dominance facilitate normal
progress in learning in a traditional setting. Are you referring to a
traditional setting in a regular public school or a traditonal Waldorf
setting? What is normal progress? Does that mean reading at the 1st grade
level in 1st grade or does it mean beginning to read in grade 4? Is there
a relationship between development of body dominance and learning to read,
learning to write, or learning to do math? If there is what is the
relationship?
)
)
)
) ) McAllen substitutes white
) ) magic rituals for any meaningful treatment of learning disabilities.
)
)
)
) Get real here, Dan.
)
) You have used the term white magic ritual, so, please, define
) the term. What do you mean by such an outlandish statement?
) Additionally, please direct me to one single remedial exercise
) in "The Extra Lesson" that you consider to be in the category.
) McAllen's work in this book is about developmental body
) topology (my term) not magic ritual.
)
) Arrguhh!
)
) The deficit in public education is missing most exactly the
) pedagogical insights available in Waldorf!
What is the deficit in public education? What pedagogical insights from
Waldorf are needed in public education?
)
) I am in agreement that Waldorf training should begin
) to include the child development courses found in state
) certified programs, but, Dan, no system is prefect.
) No one here can seriously say that our nation's public
) education is succeeding. Mainstream education is just
) as bad as Waldorf about going around ignoring vital
) research data.
)
) Little, _very_ little of what we learned about the brain
) makes its way down into the public classroom.
) Mainstream education just tends to takes up snippets,
) attaches jargon to the snippets, such as "Whole Brain Learning",
) holds a workshop or two and moves on. There is no real
) content nor application whatsoever. Madeline Hunter in the
) late 70's made her reputation from the whole brain workshops
) and her book. Where did her method, limited though it was go?
) Did book publishers take notice and alter the format of their
) books? Did state universities adjust their training programs
) to include the relevant research?
)
) No.
)
) And, what, please tell me is more relevant to education than how
) the brain and body work together?
)
) What Waldorf has to offer in regard to this could keep untold
) children from being labeled special ed and experiencing a lifetime
) of failure and low self-esteem.
What does Waldorf have to offer? How would Waldorf keep children from
being labeled special ed? Do children in public school special education
classes experience a lifetime of failure and low self-esteem?
)
) I've seen the consequences of this kind of labeling, Dan.
What consequences of labeling have you seen? How does Waldorf avoid the
consequences of labeling? Is it possible to do the same things in a
regular pubilc school that are done in Waldorf schools?
) Your post really tears me up because I've seen what McAllen's
) body of work can do to help the special ed child.
What have you seen to help the special ed child? How does McAllen's body
of work help the special ed child? Does it target specific academic
deficits or emotional problems? Are the techniques adapted or modified
according to the type of problem the child has? Or is McAllen's body of
word intended to be applied to all types of special ed problems? What type
of special ed child does it help or does it help every kind of special ed
child? What types of problems would McAllen's body of work not address?
In other words, what are the limits of application?
)
) To call the body exercises McAllen developed white magic
) is tototally misunderstand the issue and importance of
) topology in the developing child.
What is the issue? What do you mean by topology? What exactly is the
importance of topology in the developing child? How does topology relate
to mental retardation, learning to read, learning to do math, learning to
write, and learning to deal with emotional problems.
) Very sad.
I agree. Thank you in advance for your insights. Jim
)
) Gotta run...
) Paulina
)
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2088.8 ---------------
From: njpmail mindspring.com (Yael Resnick)
Subject: Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n2082
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 01:27:39 -0500
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Bob Tolz wrote:
)) On the other hand, if what Paulina meant in her "I suspect that you
)) don't believe in guardian angels" comment was that "you *disbelieve* in
)) guardian angels," then I can see Paulina's point to some extent. A premise
)) of unqualified *dis*-belief is likely to be as much a barricade to
)) open-minded thought as is a premise of unqualified belief.
Paulina wrote:
)Of course that is what I meant and what I intended
)to be heard.
)
)I wrote what I did on the fly (and am doing the same
)today!) My thinking in regard to what I said to Alan
)was because he is Jewish and out of respect for his
)worldview being different than mine.
)
)Perhaps it best if I try to make my point by quoting
)a living rabbi and scholar, Morris B. Margolies.
)
)In his book "A Gathering of Angels he writes:
)"Angels are metaphors for the most basic human drives
)and emotions: love, hate, envy, lust, charity, malice, greed,
)hope."
)
)For Morris Margolies "The Archangel Michael
)the "archetype of all Jewish angels" the guardian and
)lifesaver through all of the Rabbinic literature" is but a
)metaphor. He says of Michael that this metaphor is
)"the heavenly model of what man should be, what man
)can be."
)
) Further on Margolies says, in regard to angels as metaphor
)that "this interpretation of angles reconciles their existence with
)the teachings of a monotheistic faith.
)
)"The most essential Jewish credo is: "Hear, O, Israel, the Lord
)our God, the Lord is One." The One shares His sovereignty
)with no other. The One needs help from no other. So does
)such a One need angels? Are angels not, in fact, blasphemy
)to the conception of one God?"
)
)In the anthroposophical world view Michael is not a
)metaphor, but a real and powerful supersensible being
)with personality and archangelic powers and duties who
)serves the Christ faithfully.
)
)Alan is coming from a different worldview and belief
)system.
Dear Paulina,
I will admit I am not familiar with Morris Margolies, but I can almost
guarantee that he's not coming from a religious Jewish perspective -- more
likely Reform or Reconstructionist... just guessing. But Jewish tradition
(in the traditional sense, which was the only sense until the last 120
years or so) certainly holds that there are indeed angels (malachim) and
archangels, who are below G-d, and they are not metaphorical. I don't know
too much about this subject so I won't go into it more. But I can say that
it's not blasphemy to believe that there are angels, since their existence
does not in any way imply that G-d needs help, so to speak, or shares His
sovreignty.
Honestly, I cannot even understand on a simple level, given the little I do
know about the Jewish view on angels, how they could be "metaphors for the
most basic human drives and emotions..." What stories in Jewish tradition
involve angels displaying "love, hate, envy, lust, charity, malice, greed,
hope"?? (Actually, I can think of one. When G-d told the angels He was
going to give the Jews the Torah, the angels protested, arguing that the
Torah belonged in Heaven. G-d showed them what was in the Torah -- don't
murder, don't steal -- and asked what use angels have for such material
guidance? That's not the whole story, but it's the part that shows,
perhaps, envy or possessiveness on the part of the malachim.)
Malachim are most often seen as having a protective function. There are
malachim that escort people home from synagogue on Friday night, for
example, and a malach that watches over people when they are sleeping. Not
exactly the same as the Christian concept of a guardian angel, but not so
far from it, either. But admittedly, there's very little emphasis on angels
in Judaism, and many (most) Jews are not even aware of what their own
tradition has to say about this subject (I include myself among the
ignorant masses).
You have to be careful when trying to presuppose what any particular Jewish
person believes... especially when your source for information is
less-than-traditional. There's a huge range of "worldviews and belief
systems" among Jews.
Yael
P.S. Happy belated birthday, Dan! May you celebrate many more happy
occasions with your family and friends.
*****
Yael Resnick, Publisher/Editor, Natural Jewish Parenting
The only magazine dedicated to a Jewish perspective
on childraising and family health!
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2088.9 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Admin: your message format and ListQuest archives
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 20:39:31 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I've just checked ListQuest, who is archiving this mailing list. I
tried a search and it seems to be working well. Check it out:
http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=waldorfcritics
I did a trial search, and noted that a message from Detlef had lines
that required scrolling three feet to the right to read. This is a
reminder to everybody, if your mailer isn't wrapping lines, please
set it up to do so! I suggest using a fairly narrow line like 55 or
60 characters. This makes for easy reading and doesn't break lines
when layers of quoting are added.
-Dan Dugan
Moderator
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2088.10 ---------------
From: "Sarina McDonald" (pandora aa.net)
Subject: Brief Comments on Recent Events
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:34:36 -0800
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From: "Alan Fine"
Subject: Off topic - a few of my "best"
I really liked the psychiatry jokes, thay gave me a good laugh. But unlike
David Cann's children, I thought the Headless Horseman one was a real
stinker. :)
From: "Diana Winters"
Subject: Re: more on lines as natural expression
)when he finished he showed it to the teacher very enthusiastically,
)and got basically a tongue lashing, "We don't draw pictures! G__, you
)know we don't draw pictures! The color wants to come and play. We
)just let the color come, next time I want you to just let the color come!"
Hmpf. Lousy teacher.
My son's waldorf teacher had to go out of her to way to insist that the
children draw and paint "however you want," because several of the kids were
hell-bent on re-creating Pokemon - or whatever - exactly right, and felt
they needed to critique others' work. There were several times I noted the
children sort of chanting this, probably because they'd heard it eighteen
times that day: "You can paint however you want... you can paint however you
want..."
From: David Mollett
Subject: Off topic - a few of my "best"
Hi, David. Welcome back! Please don't provoke Dan any more; you already know
he can't stand you and he'll use any excuse he can to unsub you from the
list. So what's the use?
Personally, I'd rather see you play nice and calmly shoot down the premise
that Waldorf without Anthroposophy can't exist. I still say you do a damn
good job of proving that it can, regardless of whatever personality clashes
you've had with the PLANS folks. Your Pompeii lesson plan is still copied on
my hard drive.
---------------------------
Sarina McDonald
pandora aa.net
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2088 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2089 --------------
001 - "Alan S. Fine MD" (asf pe - Re: Off topic - a few of my "best"
002 - "Alan S. Fine MD" (asf pe - Re: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching
003 - "John and Heather at Prof - Re: Response to Paulina Leonard
004 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching
005 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Robert Jan Kelder
006 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: Diana's (was Lisa's) views on race
007 - Chand.Desai mcmail.vander - Re: Brief Comments on Recent Events
008 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Admin: your message format and ListQuest archives
009 - Sean Slovan (sean.slovan - Re: Spiritual Inspiration for Nazism - Part 2
010 - "debra harvey" (debharve - RE: Admin: your message format and ListQuest archives
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2089.1 ---------------
From: "Alan S. Fine MD" (asf peakpeak.com)
Subject: Re: Off topic - a few of my "best"
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 23:57:49 -0700
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References: (200003220101.RAA22314 lists1.best.com)
David, Monday was a pre-agreed off topic day.
Alan
----- Original Message -----
From: David (waldorfedu access1.net)
To: (waldorf-critics lists.best.com)
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 6:03 PM
Subject: Off topic - a few of my "best"
) Thanks for the jokes - I guess I like people to be consistent so I'll
) wait to see if you have abused the list and are unsubscribed; if not I
) guess it is one rule for some, and one rule for others. Now that IMHO is
) an abuse of power :-)
) David Mollet
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2089.2 ---------------
From: "Alan S. Fine MD" (asf peakpeak.com)
Subject: Re: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 00:31:32 -0700
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References: (200003171447.GAA01689 lists1.best.com)(200003181659.IAA17574 lists1.best.com)(200003192033.MAA06389 lists1.best.com) (200003211745.JAA09671 lists1.best.com)
) There's hope there. Wasn't Anthropop author and Dr. Incao run out of
) New York State for unscientific practices? I think he's set up shop
) in the new Anthropop power center in Colorado.
)
) -Dan Dugan
I haven't heard about this. Do you know this for a fact?
Alan Fine
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2089.3 ---------------
From: "John and Heather at Profoundia" (profoundia olywa.net)
Subject: Re: Response to Paulina Leonard
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 23:43:50 -0800
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In response to Paulina's posts about the efficacy of Extra Lesson methodology- I will have to jump in from my watchpost to heartily encourage this discussion.
.
Whether we call it establishing a "healthy body geography" like Mc Allen does or Sensory integration, it is clear a childs physical habits, and relationship with the physical environment are indicators of emotional and intellectual capacities. There is so much jargon to define different physiological states of being. It's time to quit assuming that people who don't know the scientifically correct verbiage can't help children. Whether or not it comes from spiritual science or not has no bearing on whether or not a child can be helped.
I discovered Extra Lesson when I was 23 years old. Aside from my work with children, I have used the exercises to successfully change physical habits that I had suffered with for years.
I have watched children become "more free" as well. How do I define "more free?" The children gain confidence in movement. They don't bump into things, for example. I worked with one girl who was reading at 3rd grade level in 1st grade but could not even climb up the ladder to use the slide.At recess she would stand, looking around sadly because she did not know how to move freely. You should have seen the stages of progress- she started shaking her arms and stomping her feet just to test to see if this was possible. She ran with other girls and formed a group of friends who would explore together. She learned to bend over and pick up an object off the ground.She was on the slide by the end of the year.
If this is white magic, light up the pyre, I'm ready to burn! ;)
P.S. Lines ?. Ingun Schneider, who furthers McAllen's work in this country- suggests that children have free rein to scribble all they want and to make drawings with line indicative of their developmental level. Else Goettgens, a really old guard Dutch teacher
suggested to me that the children be set free with craft materials for 10 min each day to create anything they want. It's called "free rendering". I had the children volunteer to tell stories about their projects. Really interesting what often came out. It was also a chance to encourage the media characters and images to make their much needed appearance so the children could feel accepted in their interests. A few of the other W teachers at my school were of the opinion that I was wasting time- so this is not a common practice, but some people use it
In short I will reiterate that getting stuck on a method or dogma, be it anti anthroposophy or pro Steiner gets us nowhere in deciding what's best for the child. You folks who are parents know how the little ones act when something ungenuine is presented to them.
No reason to worry that I will be corrupting the youth this kind of pedagogy. I have no teaching license and my Waldorf certification isn't worth much either now that I have been fired from 2 different schools. I would encourage those of you who are actively teaching to spread the scourge of Extra Lesson far and wide, cloaked under a large helping of legitimate sounding neuroscientific terminology.
All the best,
Heather
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2089.4 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:11:48 +0100
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References: (200003171447.GAA01689 lists1.best.com)(200003181659.IAA17574 lists1.best.com)(200003192033.MAA06389 lists1.best.com) (200003211745.JAA09671 lists1.best.com) (200003220733.XAA13325 lists1.best.com)
Alan wrote, quoting Dan:
Dan:
) ) There's hope there. Wasn't Anthropop author and Dr. Incao run out of
) ) New York State for unscientific practices? I think he's set up shop
) ) in the new Anthropop power center in Colorado.
Alan:
) I haven't heard about this. Do you know this for a fact?
Me:
I yesterday sent a posting that by mistake came to be misdated,
probably putting it out of sight in mail programs that sort by date.
It was an answer to the posting by Dan quoted above by Alan. The end
answered the question by Alan. For those who already saw it, I
apologize for resending it, somewhat corrected.
Dan:
) Homeopathic remedies are often administered by Waldorf teachers for
) minor accidents; ...
I answered showing how that very probably is not true (as Dan does
not specify the remedies used for treating the minor accidents, it is
difficult to be completely sure):
Me:
If you by 'homeopathic' mean all types of remedies based on natural
substances it would be true. But the remedies you probably refer to I
imagine would be Arnica elixir (a well known remedy used to treat
bruises and swellings), and Calendula elixir (an in herbal medicine
probably equally well known remedy used in the treatment of smaller
wounds) both used in diluted form or as salve and not used because of
any special 'homeopathic' effect, but mainly for their very
physiologically based effects.
(and)
) )Knowing that, as you probably do too, one sees how polemically
) )insinuant and basically untrue your comment is, in the sense of
) )implying that Waldorf teachers for some reason would use pure 'water'
) )in treating 'minor accidents' ascribing some sort of magical power to
) )it.
Dan's answers avoiding the point; that he was wrong in describing the
elixirs/salves in question as 'homeopathic' which he put forth as a
sort of implied 'proof' of how absurd the treatment of medical
problems of children at Waldorf schools should be, by changing the
subject:
Dan:
) "Magical Power" is exactly what homeopathy is about, cloaked in pseudoscience.
[snip]
Me:
) )As you probably also know, in any way seriously mistreating
) )children or other patients makes any licenced MD (including
) )anthroposophical MD:s who don't stop being MD:s when starting to
) )practice also anthroposophical medicine) very soon would make him or
) )her lose their licence.
Dan:
) There's hope there. Wasn't Anthropop author and Dr. Incao run out of
) New York State for unscientific practices? I think he's set up shop
) in the new Anthropop power center in Colorado.
See:
http://goodlight.net/vacexpert/pastprob.htm at
http://goodlight.net/vacexpert/
Dr Incao:
************************************************
I was investigated by the New York State Health Department in 1988 to
determine if there was any negligence in my treatment of patients. The
office was never shut down but 30 patient charts were confiscated and
examined for evidence of negligence. None was found and no charges
were ever brought. The whole case was quietly dropped without any
official statement of dismissal or exoneration. It was a "fishing
expedition" that came up with nothing. A friendly source within the
Health Department confided to me that my position on vaccinations was
the real impetus for the investigation.
************************************************
Me:
Personally I would not call what seems to have been a possible
harassment by authorities that lead to nothing very interesting as any
sort of 'proof' that anthroposophical MD:s in any general sense or in
any specific case having mistreated their patients in a way that would
be considered the basis for criticism or withdrawing their medical
license, which was what you implied by stating that you 'knew' that
anthroposophical MD:s consciously had sent kids with meningitis that
needed treatment to daycare, implying maybe you did not 'know' what
you said you knew ...?
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2089.5 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Robert Jan Kelder
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 12:47:45 +0100
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Dan wrote commenting a letter from Robert Jan Kelder,
RJK:
) )Your
) )list of articles from Holland e.g. include none of the many articles and
) )booklets by anthroposophists reputing the politically correct attacks and
) )insinuations made here by incompetent journalists and would-be philosophers
) )against the integrity of R. Steiner,
Dan:
) Of course not. You have your own presses cranking your your
) propaganda.
I take this as you herewith stating that you do not to consider the
material on the site of PLANS as primarily informational material
reflecting the essence of anthroposophy and Waldorf education in any
basic sense, but propaganda material from an anti-anthroposophy and
anti-Waldorf perspective?
snip
) )That new article e.g. on A. and
) )ecofacism has so many errors, that it would be no use to enter into a
) )discussion with the author except to say that he should spend a couple of
) )more years doing serious research before venturing out into the open with
) )his marxist tainted heap of bias and materialistic half truths.
)
) One wouldn't expect the far right Anthropops to enjoy sniping from
) the left.
As you may have noted, Dan, 'Anthropops' can be found from the greater
part of the political field, from left to right with most of them
probably, I'd say, like in society in general, being aggregating
somewhere around the field in the middle. But you'd admittedly
probably find very few radical materialists among 'anthroposophists'
in some sense, even if Felix Hau (main editor of Info 3) recently
described his own religious view as close to the Atheist view.
) Is that "materialistic" the code word that used to mean
) Jewish?
Some punch below the belt. "Jewish" is the word Hitler used in the
'Völkischen Beobachter' when referring to Steiner's way of describing
the threefold nature of society in the tradition of the French
revolution as one of these "completely Jewish methods of destroying
the normal frame of mind of the peoples (Völker)".
(http://www.waldorfnet.de/Festschrift/Seite44.html)
snip
Dan:
) Sounds like a faction. I'm starting to see why other Anthropops might
) see you as a pain in the ass.
Daan, I thought your definite understanding was that all
'anthroposophists' were of one and the same 'party line' being reason
to complain about it. Now you complain when you meet one in the
spectrum who isn't. Fischy complaints;
swim to the left,
swim to the right,
what can I complain about?
- this time ... :-)
snip
Dan:
) What's "post-democratic"? Could you summarize for us?
In the tradition of the French revolution (freedom, equality,
brother/sisterhood) seeing the _primary_ cultivation of democracy is
limited to the life of the state, treating _all_ citizens on the basis
of our equality as humans in the election of our representatives for
the parliamentarian assemblies and the formulation of the laws
governing our basic human rights as citizens of the state to live a
dignified life, health, housing, safety, freedom of expression
independently of ethnicity, gender, spiritual views and possibility to
contribute to the production of goods and services.
Also, seeing that the development of cultural life can only be
democratic in as far as the right to contribute and take part in it
are concerned, but not in the sense of everyone having to behave in
basically the same way or having the same opinion or all cultural
institutions should be formed on the basis of the same world view ...,
but that 'freedom' (in 'production-expression' and 'consumption') is a
_more_ basic principle in cultural life than 'equality' in the form of
the content of cultural life being governed and decided on by
democratically elected bodies.
Also, seeing that neither primarily 'democracy' (example: 5-year plans
made by the state for production) nor primarily the unlimited
'freedom' for the strong individual to make money reducing other
people to tools and manipulated targets are defendable as the basic
principle for 'economy' in a human society, based on the respect for
the individual. A florishing economy in a good sense can only be built
on the principle of brother/sisterhood and cooperation, not primarily
on the principle of freedom of competition and exploitation or
something limited to national borders.
In Europe, economy is now being restructured according to the basic
principle of lifting out economy of the hands of nationally based
institutions, putting the basic regulation of it in the hand of the
European Commission in close cooperation with all the parties involved
in economy including workers, consumers and environmental interests,
and with somewhat increasing influence by the European Parliament, to
which all regulating motions by the Commission are referred for
discussion and possible veto, but still with an imbalance in favour of
financial interests/producers and trade (see
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/EU/euengoff.htm) in a sort of federative
way.
Legal life is being developed on a confederative basis slowly
developing and finding a functioning balance between te role of the
national parliaments and the European Parliament, and
one way of handling cultural life is the nomination of the capital of
one of the members (countires) of the Union each year to be the
'cultural capital of the year' of the Union, giving the country in
question the full stage for a specific year.
In the article (http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/EU/euengoff.htm) I
(have) tried to show how the "post-democratic" forms now developing as
the European Union during a specific period of European history - as I
see it - could be developed in a way more doing justice to its
underlying, implicit principles.
snip
) Factions again. Are you sure you want to wave this dirty laundry in public?
Dan, you have looked through a microscope for anything that you do not
consider to be 'white' areas in the cloth of anthroposophy, declaring
every day from morning to evening on this list to be 'laundry time'
for those by you considered 'not-white' spots.
For the background for Steiner's discussion of 'races' in the lecture
cycle in 1910 (discussed earlier here on the list), see the _general_
opinion in _US_ during the three decades from at least 1914-1944
http://www.tcsn.net/kcondron/kjcevol1.htm :
*****************************
The popular American high school biology textbook by Hunter, titled A
Civic Biology [1914], 69 in the section on evolution under the
subtitle 'The Races of Man', stated that
'at the present time there exists upon the earth five races or
varieties of man, each very different from the other in instinct,
social customs, and to an extent, in structure. '
The five races were then ranked from inferior to superior as follows:
'There are the Ethiopian or Negro type, originating in Africa; the
Malay or brown race, from the islands of the Pacific; the American
Indian; the Mongolian or yellow race, including the natives of China,
Japan and the Eskimos; and finally, the highest type of all, the
Caucasians, represented by the civilized white inhabitants of Europe
and America.' 70
The textbook states that the 'highest' race is the Caucasians, who are
specifically 'higher' developed in terms of 'instincts, social
customs, and . . . [physical] structure.' 71 This book, widely
adopted by American public high schools for over 30 years ... [that is
from 1914 to after 1944, my comment S.N.]
****************************
That was what probably _the very great majority of Americans_ were
taught and thought through at least the whole first part of this
century, decades after Steiner died. Why not do some laundry on
_general American culture of the time_ and the views and opinions held
by hundreds of Millions of Americans through the greater part of this
century before discussing the culture at Waldorf schools in Europe?
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2089.6 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Diana's (was Lisa's) views on race
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 12:07:10 GMT
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[Diana]
)The logic is that just because your race is "childish" or )"youthful"
)spiritually, you're not inferior?
[Terry]
)Did I say "childish" or "youthful" *spiritually*, Diana? No, I did )not.
)Please read more carefully.
Applied to *entire races* it's absurd and demeaning, whether you mean
"temperament" or "spirituality" -- this distinction doesn't change the
racial categorization you are defending.
[Terry]
)One can thus have a childlike (did I say childish, or did you )say )that?
)Childish and childlike have two very different meanings in )English)
)constitution or temperament and yet have a high spiritual )stature.
I am uncomfortable with your premise that you (or Steiner) have info. on who
has a "high" versus "low" spiritual status.
[Terry]
)no insult was intended )either to those of children, youth or )the
)elderly. I suggest rather that you consider whether it may be )that you
)yourself somehow regard children, youth or the elderly as )being inferior
)to the middle-aged.
It is not a question of being offended on behalf of children, youth, or
elderly. It is an objection to the ranking and categorizing according to
race, period. Not which groups come out looking good and which don't. The
whole system is bogus.
[Terry]
)The fact that blacks were described by him as having childlike )qualities
)means they are full of greater *life forces* than whites - )do you doubt
)that?
[Diana]
)Yes.
[Terry]
)May I ask why?
[Diana]
Sure you may ask, but I don't think it is likely we could come to any
understanding on such fundamentally different world views. Quantifying
peoples' life forces by race is meaningless.
[Terry]
)Have you ever been to Africa and experienced African vitality first )hand?
) (Obviously, I am not talking of those Africans who have )to struggle
)against poverty and disease)
[Diana]
)LOL! No I guess you're not talking about *those* Africans!
[Terry]
)I was talking about the ones in a normal condition of health,
)not those who are ill. Get a grip on yourself, will you?
Gripping tightly here - I was pointing out that generalizing about an entire
race's "life forces" is a little tricky, since whichever way you generalize
it will be easy to find comically blatant exceptions.
Generalizing about those "vital Africans" is really a humdinger.
[Terry]
)I have never been to Greece, but in our college, I have taught
)classfuls of Greeks, and I can tell you, on such occasions "I have )been
)to Greece - get it? I have also taught mixed classes of say, )Greeks and
)Chinese. In such classes there were two very distinct )atmospheres, two
)very distinct temperaments. Such situations can )become opportunities for
)anthropological understanding.
Anthropological understanding would be very different from drawing
conclusions about an entire race or ethnic group's "temperament," let alone
their spiritual "status." We are not discussing your "anthropological
understanding," Terry.
[Diana]
)Did it ever occur to you that if there are indeed any "meanings" to )racial
)"differentiation," they aren't for you to know?
[Terry]
)What kind of mystification is this? What kind of neo-Kantian
) )ignorabimus-like "thinking" is this? Do you realise what you have )just
)written, Diana?
Yes, I have written that you don't know everything, Terry, Steiner didn't
know everything, and I don't know everything, and there just may be things
we *can't* know. I'm sure it is reassuring to think that if there's
something you don't know, you can just look it up in Steiner, but it doesn't
work for me.
)If there's a master plan, maybe you (and Steiner) aren't in on it?
)ditto last comment above
Ditto my last comment above. You do feel you're in on the master plan,
Terry? Okay.
[Diana]
)Claims to understand any such meanings, if they exist, are )preposterous.
)Let's forget dangerous, or offensive, or any of that: )they are absurd.
[Terry]
)Voila the voice of unreason that has resounded down the centuries!
)The voice from the pulpit. Thou shalt not think, and especially thou )shalt
)not think about what is unmentionable.
You may think and speak about whatever you like, and if I'm listening I will
feel free to tell you when I think your comments are racist and offensive,
and why.
[back to spiritual game-show trivia]
)Why, for you, do those of East Asian origin, and only they have the )eyes
)they do? Why do they have the Mongolian Spot? etc.etc.
)First, who is making anything up? The northeast Asian eye fold -
)do Africans have them?
Steiner made up the *meanings* attached to these, Terry, not the eye folds
or Mongolian spots, whatever they are.
Diana
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2089.7 ---------------
From: Chand.Desai mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Subject: Re: Brief Comments on Recent Events
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 08:33:48 -0600
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My wife, who teaches first grade in a "baby" Waldorf school, gives her kids
both block and stick crayons and encourages them to use them in all ways -
exploring shading and lines. They even have black and brown stick crayons. In
her experience, kids who are disturbed and frustrated already are more likely to
scratch their wet on wet watercolors, and kids who watch more TV use more
outlines in their drawings.
Chand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2089.8 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Admin: your message format and ListQuest archives
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 10:51:47 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
[Dan Dugan]
) I've just checked ListQuest, who is archiving this mailing list. I
) tried a search and it seems to be working well. Check it out:
)
) http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=waldorfcritics
)
[Bob Tolz]
It looks pretty good. It looks like the earliest they've gone back
to might be December, 1999. Do you expect them to index earlier than that?
Bob Tolz
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2089.9 ---------------
From: Sean Slovan (sean.slovan gmx.net)
Subject: Re: Spiritual Inspiration for Nazism - Part 2
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:48:22 +0100
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In-Reply-To: (200003200141.RAA07887 lists1.best.com)
Alan Fine wrote:
) Of course we are talking about Persia here. In a theosophical light, the
) battle would have a spiritual meaning, a victory of theJews, the forces of
) the Moon and Ahriman over the Aryans, the force of Light, Ahura Mazda. How
) important was this stuff to the Nazis?
Whom are you talking about? Rosenberg? Blavatsky? Steiner?
Perhaps Streicher had this view, and Rosenberg, too, but their
interpretation has nothing in common either with the factual Persian/Jewish
encounter in history, nor with Rudolf Steiners point of view which is
exactly the opposite.
When you quote from Rosenberg, ok. But you know that Hitler called
Rosenberg's book already in 1929 "incomprehensible", he said that he read
only a small part of it, and that even the title of the book was wrong,
because Nazism was not about the "Myth of the 20th c.", but about "Faith and
Knowledge" of the 20th c., overcoming the Myth of the 19th c., that is
religion and irrationalism. Rosenberg noted in his diary on Feb 2, 1940
after a conversation with Hitler, that he was surprised by the "positivist
approach" of the latter. Hitler had stated that Nazism must deduce its
"abstract inner logic" from "exact scientific research".
On the other hand, Steiner never identified the "Moon" with "Ahriman".
Steiner was not Rosenberg, nor did Rosenberg read such a thing in a book by
Steiner. On the contrary, Steiner pointed out the importance of the fact
that the Jews were freed from the Babylonian exile by the Persian king Kyros
who permitted them to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem. And Steiner stated as
early as 1910 (lectures on the Gospel of Matthew) that there was from this
moment on an important Iranian/Persian cultural impact in the stream of
Jewish spiritual life that gave birth to the Books of the Prophets and the
communities of the Essenes. This was acknowledged by academical research
after the findings in Qumram in 1946. Cf. Geo Widengren: Iranisch-semitische
Kulturbegegnung in parthischer Zeit [Iranian-Semitic Cultural Encounter in
the Parthian Age]. Koeln-Opladen 1960, the studies by Gilles Quispel, André
Dupont-Sommer and others. And I doubt that you have read what Steiner said
about JHW and His relation to the Moon.
By the way, the Moon was holy for the Iranians, too, being the expression of
the holy white Primal Bull, syzygos (twin) of the Primal Man, creature of
Ahura Mazda, who was slaughtered by Ahriman.
I have already noticed your lack of care in handling and presenting text
excerpts. I only hope for your patients that you are more conscientious as a
medic.
Sean Slovan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2089.10 ---------------
From: "debra harvey" (debharve hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Admin: your message format and ListQuest archives
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:35:43 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
))[Dan Dugan]
) ) I've just checked ListQuest, who is archiving this mailing list. I
) ) tried a search and it seems to be working well. Check it out:
) )
) ) http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=waldorfcritics
) )
)
)[Harve]
Wow Dan. It's great. I did a search on Steiner and race so that I could
start my reading and it brought up a lot of material.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2089 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2090 --------------
001 - "debra harvey" (debharve - RE: Admin: your message format and ListQuest archives
002 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: Reincarnation and materialism
003 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: Robert Jan Kelder
004 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Spiritual Inspiration for Nazism - Part 2
005 - momof2gals mindspring.com - paulina/my position
006 - Terry Boardman (terry.boa - Dan's misuse of Steiner quotes [was Re:PS]
007 - "debra harvey" (debharve - Re: paulina/my position
008 - "debra harvey" (debharve - Re: paulina/my position
009 - Sean Slovan (sean.slovan - Re: Spiritual Inspiration for Nazism - Part 2
010 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: paulina/my position
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2090.1 ---------------
From: "debra harvey" (debharve hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Admin: your message format and ListQuest archives
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:35:45 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
))[Dan Dugan]
) ) I've just checked ListQuest, who is archiving this mailing list. I
) ) tried a search and it seems to be working well. Check it out:
) )
) ) http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=waldorfcritics
) )
)
)[Harve]
Wow Dan. It's great. I did a search on Steiner and race so that I could
start my reading and it brought up a lot of material.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2090.2 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Reincarnation and materialism
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 08:56:15 -0800
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In-Reply-To: (200003220327.TAA20027 lists1.best.com)
On 22 Mar 2000, at 3:27, Diana Winters wrote:
) [Terry]
)
) )Those who "believe" in the cosmic heat death prescribed by the Second Law
) )of Thermodynamics must come to terms with the notion that all of human
) )love and culture is totally meaningless and pointless.
)
) What??! There aren't any scientific theories that would convince me human
) love and culture are meaningless and pointless.
Of course not. This comes up time and again. Many Anthroposophists like
to think that materialists are full of despair and emptiness, and if not,
they don't understand the philosophical implications of their own world
view.
This kind of misrepresentation of others' belief systems is a form of
bigotry and prejudice. We see plenty of that on this list, on both sides.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carbonata descendum pantorum."
(A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.)
http://members.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2090.3 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Robert Jan Kelder
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:33:49 -0800
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In-Reply-To: (200003221150.DAA07614 lists1.best.com)
On 22 Mar 2000, at 12:47, Sune Nordwall wrote:
) The popular American high school biology textbook by Hunter, titled A
) Civic Biology [1914], 69 in the section on evolution under the
) subtitle 'The Races of Man', stated that
)
) 'at the present time there exists upon the earth five races or
) varieties of man, each very different from the other in instinct,
) social customs, and to an extent, in structure. '
)
) The five races were then ranked from inferior to superior as follows:
)
) 'There are the Ethiopian or Negro type, originating in Africa; the
) Malay or brown race, from the islands of the Pacific; the American
) Indian; the Mongolian or yellow race, including the natives of China,
) Japan and the Eskimos; and finally, the highest type of all, the
) Caucasians, represented by the civilized white inhabitants of Europe
) and America.'
You have successfully shown that Steiner's writings are no more racist
than those of mainstream American textbook writers of his era. But today,
we do not try to interpret the above paragraph in a non-racist way; we
simply acknowledge that it is wrong and move on. Some Anthroposophists on
this list have done the same with respect to Steiner's views of race.
Other anthroposophists have tried to show that Steiner's ranking of the
races was not racist because (1) no value judgments are attached to the
rankings; (2) we all incarnate into various races at different times
anyway; (3) he's really talking about the effects of emanations from the
earth and how they effect people on different continents, and not about
race; (4) he's really talking about culture, and not race; and (5) in his
broader perspective, he was not racist.
Still others contend that Steiner abandoned those rankings in his later
writings, which implies that the rankings should not be given credence by
modern Anthroposophists. This latter view comes close to repudiating
Steiner's views on race, and, as I said, some Anthroposophists on the list
have expressly repudiated those views.
I have been convinced that Steiner's broader perspective was not racist.
I have not been convinced that there is *any* justifications for his
rankings. The fact that many Anthroposophists cling to those beliefs, I
think, merely shows that some people are willing to defend any damn fool
thing that Steiner said simply because he said it.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carbonata descendum pantorum."
(A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.)
http://members.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2090.4 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Spiritual Inspiration for Nazism - Part 2
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 18:45:57 +0100
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References: (200003221550.HAA28674 lists1.best.com)
Sean Slovan wrote:
) I have already noticed your lack of care in handling and presenting text
) excerpts. I only hope for your patients that you are more conscientious as a
) medic.
I'm sure Alan, like the probably very great majority of docs, is a
good and conscientious doc for his patients.
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2090.5 ---------------
From: momof2gals mindspring.com
Subject: paulina/my position
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 13:17:36 -0500
Paulina,
Thanks for answering my question. As to my not reading very
carefully, there is some truth in that some times. Some days I am
unable to get to my personal e-mail (and thus this list) and the posts
pile up until 150 or more are waiting! I had thought, however, that I
had made a deliberate effort to read any and all of the items YOU
posted on the subject of art and in particular, the subject of
allowing (or not allowing) kindergarten-age children to draw using
lines (which I and others maintain is a natural form of expression
that should not -- as it is in some Waldorf kindergartens -- be
thwarted.)
I certainly will try to read more carefully, and consider each
post more thoroughly, henceforth.
I did, however, want to clarify something in your response to me.
You state that you believe that, overall, I am happy with Waldorf
education and it was the negative experience my family and older
daughter had with ONE TEACHER that led to our withdrawing the child.
That is the truth -- but only part of the truth.
Since that very negative experience, and since we withdrew our
older child, I have taken on the task of learning as much as I can
about Waldorf education and the Waldorf philosophy as written about by
Steiner and other Anthroposophical thinkers and as carried out by the
teachers and administrators in our school and others.
I am sorry to say that the more I learn, the more I believe that
there are many fundamental and serious problems with the Waldorf
approach and view. I do not accept the ``fact'' that Rudolf Steiner
was a clairvoyant or that he had any great insight into the nature of
human beings or life. Therefore, each and every thing he says is open
to questions, at least for me.
It would be too long and boring for everyone if I listed all of
the things about Waldorf with which I disagree. I certainly disagree
with many things about the way Waldorf education is carried out,
from not allowing young children to use black crayons or to draw with
lines to teaching science that is not accepted in the modern world as
``science.'' I am appalled by Steiner's writings on the spiritual
evolution of the races, and I find his view of history -- including
Atlantis -- laughable. I am reading Steiner's ``Nature Spirits'' and
Spock's ``Fairy Worlds and Workers'' at the moment and struggling with
the notion that fairies and gnomes actually exist and that the thing
that what a gnome loves best of all is a pineapple. (What gnomes hate
most, however, are frogs!!!)
So many of these things I did not know, and as recently as last
fall. But I know them now. The fact that our younger girl remains in
the Waldorf kindergarten and will stay there until June should not be
taken as a recommendation of Waldorf as a whole.
Our child is happy in her class, and we saw no reason to disrupt
her year just because we have since learned things about WE of which
we disapprove and disagree. (It is important to note that these things
have very little direct impact on her -- other than the fact that she
does not have a black crayon with which to draw her own hair and eyes
-- which she perceives as black because she is Chinese! -- and the
fact that she desperately wants to learn to read and write, which we
are working on at home.)
I just wanted to clear that up. Yes, things have changed as far
as our overall opinion of WE. But in my view, knowledge is power, and
in this case, knowledge has led our family to a
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2090.6 ---------------
From: Terry Boardman (terry.boardman cableinet.co.uk)
Subject: Dan's misuse of Steiner quotes [was Re:PS]
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 18:38:40 +0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
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) From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
) Subject: Re: PS
) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 20:59:22 -0800
)
) 3/19/00, paulina leonard wrote:
)
) )- First of all, HAPPY BIRTHDAY, Dan. have a good one!
)
) Thanks, you missed a great party.
)
) )- Secondly, Alan, if you read this I just wanted to mention that you
are
) )totally off base in regard to humans and a group soul. You really
) )should read more Steiner before you quote him. Humans are not part
) )of a group soul.
)
) "Besides their character, families, nations and races have also their
) destiny. ... Besides the separate individuals, a very real family and
) national group soul and racial spirit is at work in the life of a
) family, a people, or a race. Indeed, in a certain sense the separate
) individuals are merely the executive organs of these family group
) souls, racial spirits, and so on....In the truest sense, everyone
) receives his allotted task from his family, national or racial group
) soul." [Steiner, 1904, KHW pp. 240-241]
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
Dan's simple quotation from Steiner seems a damning rejoinder to
Paulina doesn't it? It seems to leave her with egg on her face, but
Dan is up to his old tricks again here. Granted, Paulina could have
been more careful; she was probably thinking of animal group souls,
spiritual beings who, according to Steiner, govern the existences of the
animal
species on Earth. She asserted that human beings do not belong to
these. "Group soul" is a technical term in Anthroposophy usually
reserved for such higher spiritual beings from whom the animal species
(not including humans) have their being.
What translation is Dan using, and is
Dan actually putting words into Steiner's mouth? Well, I look at my
copy of Knowledge of the Higher Worlds (KHW; Dan does not say
which copy he has) published by
Rudolf Steiner Press 1969 (revised transl by D.S.Osmond and C.Davy).
The passage quoted above by Dan is in my book as follows (p.198):
"Besides the single individuals, the very real family-souls, folk-souls,
race-spirits, are at work in the life of a family, a people, a race.
Indeed
in a certain sense the single individuals are only the executive organs
of these family-souls, folk-souls, race-spirits, and so on.....In the
truest
sense every individual receives his allotted task from his
family-,folk-,
or race-soul."
*Nowhere* in this passage (and I have omitted the same sentences as
Dan has omitted) is there mention of a "group-soul". Dan's translator
or Dan himself may have opted to associate the words 'group soul' with
the words nation, family and race, whereas in fact a folk-soul and
a group soul (Gruppenseele) are distinctly different entities.
Turning to the German original, Steiner's own words, what do we
find? We find he uses the words "Familienseele", "Volkseelen",
"Rassenseelen" and "Rassengeister" and NOT the word "Gruppenseele"
(1972 Dornach, Rudolf Steiner Verlag p.142)
If Dan wants the whole passage in German, I'll happily supply it.
So, Dan, is it that the translation you depend on is inaccurate and
misleading, or is it that you inserted the word "group" into the
translations of the three terms above in order to bolster your
line of argument? The latter I think unlikely I must say, so I suggest
you get yourself a better translation of KHW before you use such
shoddy stuff to contradict Paulina or anyone else.
Note that Steiner uses the phrase "in a certain sense" in the quote.
This does not mean that the individual is *essentially or entirely*
subordinate to his family, nation, or race by any means. The further
one goes back in history into ages when most people did indeed live
a more collective life, then to that extent is this saying of Steiner's
about
'executive organs' and 'allotted tasks' true. But to modern humanity, it
applies less and less as we have become more individuated.
Secondly, as Dan so often and so mischievously does, he omits the
context
of the quote or its surroundings which can balance it and clarify it.
Steiner
is here talking about changes that take place within one when, as a
result
of esoteric training, one crosses the threshold of the spiritual world,
and
encounters the being known as the Guardian of the Threshold. Allow
me to cite what follows that quote:
"Now the physical man is by no means informed about the higher purpose
of his work. He works *unconsciously* (Steiner's emphasis) at the aims
of his people, of his race and so forth. From the moment when the pupil
meets the Guardian of the Threshold he is required not merely to know
his own tasks as a personality, but to work with *conscious
understanding*
at those of his own people or his race. Every extension of his horizon
enlarges the scope of his duties. What actually happens is that the
pupil
...puts on another garment. Hitherto he has made his way through the
world with the sheaths enveloping his personality; and what he had to
accomplish for his community, his people, his race and so on was looked
after by higher Spirits who made use of his personality.
A further revelation now made to the pupil by the Guardian of the
Threshold is that henceforth these Spirits will withdraw their guiding
hands
from him. *He must step right out of his community* (my emphasis). And
as
an isolated individual he would become rigidly hardened within himself,
he
would head for destruction, if he did not himself acquire the powers
which
are inherent in the folk- and race-Spirits....The esoteric pupil alone
learns
what it means to be entirely cut off from his family, lineal or racial
Spirits.
He alone realises, through personal experience, *the insignificance of
all
such upbringing for the life now confronting him* (my emphasis).
He looks back on the results of all previous upbringing as he would look
on a house crumbling away brick by brick, which he must now rebuild
in a new form" (see my ref. above pp198-200)
Does this make the esoteric pupil sound like someone who is a puppet of
his race/nation/family? Hardly.
What Steiner is saying here is that there comes a time when an esoteric
pupil has to abandon all his previous collective conditioning, and
become
truly himself - but he does not then turn his back on the collectives
to which he owed his first steps in earthly life (family, nation, race).
Instead,
he develops the forces in himself to serve those collectives in full
consciousness because he freely wills to do so, and in doing so, he
helps other more unconsciously acting members of those collectives to
awaken too. Is this not what the Gandhis and Mandelas of this world
have always done? Those still acting unconsciously within the
collectives
often misunderstand such individuals (the Nazis and nationalists in
Germany
misunderstood Steiner in this way, for example) or regard them as
traitors.
They fail to see that the consciously acting one is actually serving the
people from a broader perspective.
What then has Dan done here? Once again, he chooses to overlook
the fact that someone may be reading the List for the first time,
someone
who is unfamiliar with "the particular collection" of Steiner
translations
he has amassed. He simply cites "Steiner 1904, KHW p240-241".
An unwitting new Waldorf parent who'd decided to have a look at
what the List was all about and who hadn't read any or much Steiner
would inevitably get the impression that Steiner regarded us as mere
appendages of our race, family, or nation, an idea repugnant to most
people in the West. If that parent took the trouble to hunt up on Dan's
collection of Steiner quotes on his website, he'd find what KHW stood
for - the book Knowledge of the Higher Worlds. He'd think: this is
a quote from Steiner himself, and it says this! This is either deception
or ignorance on Dan's part. He may be considering that the poor
translation
he happens to have is the definitive version, whereas in fact there
are any number of sub-standard translations about.
Terry
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2090.7 ---------------
From: "debra harvey" (debharve hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: paulina/my position
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 18:59:04 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Lisa wrote:
) I am sorry to say that the more I learn, the more I believe that
)there are many fundamental and serious problems with the Waldorf
)approach and view. I do not accept the ``fact'' that Rudolf Steiner
)was a clairvoyant or that he had any great insight into the nature of
)human beings or life. Therefore, each and every thing he says is open
)to questions, at least for me.
[Harve]
Lisa I am sorry that you have had such recent problems with your children's
education. At least the end is in sight.
It's interesting. The more I read about Steiner (and I don't take anyone's
word as gospel), the more I appreciate his insights. For example, I
thought the "hardening" theory was amazing in light of the fact that he
predated brain research pertaining to mylenin by 100 years. I also find the
temperments to be interesting and was quite interested in a discussion of
musical instruments and temperments on the SJU list. I'm starting to read
about Steiner's Christologies. I find Atlantis and reincarnation
fascinating. I wish I had enough time to delve more deeply.
I also find that the anthroposophists on this list have very insightful
things to say and that they think through a lot of provocative issues. I
think I'm at a point where we will just pick and choose what makes sense.
(I think Sarina has a very healthy approach)
[Lisa]
. I am reading Steiner's ``Nature Spirits'' and
)Spock's ``Fairy Worlds and Workers'' at the moment and struggling with
)the notion that fairies and gnomes actually exist and that the thing
)that what a gnome loves best of all is a pineapple. (What gnomes hate
)most, however, are frogs!!!)
[Harve]
When I was in Ireland several years ago, I could have sworn I saw some real
fairies. I at least felt their presence. I didn't see them eating
anything. I know that my children see things that I don't.
I'm certainly not a true believer and nobody is going to tell me how to
raise my children.
I will take suggestions and, after reflection, incorporate ideas and
practices into childraising.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2090.8 ---------------
From: "debra harvey" (debharve hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: paulina/my position
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 18:59:01 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Lisa wrote:
) I am sorry to say that the more I learn, the more I believe that
)there are many fundamental and serious problems with the Waldorf
)approach and view. I do not accept the ``fact'' that Rudolf Steiner
)was a clairvoyant or that he had any great insight into the nature of
)human beings or life. Therefore, each and every thing he says is open
)to questions, at least for me.
[Harve]
Lisa I am sorry that you have had such recent problems with your children's
education. At least the end is in sight.
It's interesting. The more I read about Steiner (and I don't take anyone's
word as gospel), the more I appreciate his insights. For example, I
thought the "hardening" theory was amazing in light of the fact that he
predated brain research pertaining to mylenin by 100 years. I also find the
temperments to be interesting and was quite interested in a discussion of
musical instruments and temperments on the SJU list. I'm starting to read
about Steiner's Christologies. I find Atlantis and reincarnation
fascinating. I wish I had enough time to delve more deeply.
I also find that the anthroposophists on this list have very insightful
things to say and that they think through a lot of provocative issues. I
think I'm at a point where we will just pick and choose what makes sense.
(I think Sarina has a very healthy approach)
[Lisa]
. I am reading Steiner's ``Nature Spirits'' and
)Spock's ``Fairy Worlds and Workers'' at the moment and struggling with
)the notion that fairies and gnomes actually exist and that the thing
)that what a gnome loves best of all is a pineapple. (What gnomes hate
)most, however, are frogs!!!)
[Harve]
When I was in Ireland several years ago, I could have sworn I saw some real
fairies. I at least felt their presence. I didn't see them eating
anything. I know that my children see things that I don't.
I'm certainly not a true believer and nobody is going to tell me how to
raise my children.
I will take suggestions and, after reflection, incorporate ideas and
practices into childraising.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2090.9 ---------------
From: Sean Slovan (sean.slovan gmx.net)
Subject: Re: Spiritual Inspiration for Nazism - Part 2
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 20:40:05 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In-Reply-To: (200003221748.JAA25946 lists1.best.com)
) Sean Slovan wrote:
)) I have already noticed your lack of care in handling and presenting text
)) excerpts. I only hope for your patients that you are more conscientious as a
)) medic.
Sune Nordwall wrote:
) I'm sure Alan, like the probably very great majority of docs, is a
) good and conscientious doc for his patients.
I was speaking as a professional to a professional, making an appeal to his
professionality. I am a professional historian, teaching history to young
students at university and elsewhere. And I am very aware of my professional
responsabilty. If I would do in medicine, what Alan does to historical
questions, I would be a quacksalber with several dead corpses on my account.
But thoughts don't kill, or do they?
Sean Slovan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2090.10 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: paulina/my position
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 21:13:37 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
[Harve wrote:]
)It's interesting. The more I read about Steiner (and I don't take anyone's
)word as gospel), the more I appreciate his insights.
Debra, at the risk of impertinence, I can't understand how you can assess
the whole situation of Waldorf/Steiner/anthroposophy based on what two
different "sides" are saying *about* Steiner. Read Steiner!
)I'm certainly not a true believer and nobody is going to tell me how to
)raise my children.
)I will take suggestions and, after reflection, incorporate ideas and
)practices into childraising.
Good plan. You might not find you would "fit" in Waldorf with this healthy
attitude, however.
Diana
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2090 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2091 --------------
001 - "Joel A. Wendt" (hermit t - Re: PS
002 - "debra harvey" (debharve - Re: paulina/my position
003 - "Joel A. Wendt" (hermit t - Re: Lack of Mechanism
004 - "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2ga - on Mongolian spots and race
005 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: on Mongolian spots and race
006 - "Sarina McDonald" (pandor - Black Crayons and Stereotypes (WAS: Re: paulina/my position)
007 - Terry Boardman (terry.boa - Re: Reincarnation and materialism
008 - "Alan S. Fine MD" (asf pe - Re: Spiritual Inspiration for Nazism - Part 2
009 - "Alan S. Fine MD" (asf pe - Re: Spiritual Inspiration for Nazism - Part 2
010 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: Reincarnation and materialism
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2091.1 ---------------
From: "Joel A. Wendt" (hermit tiac.net)
Subject: Re: PS
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:47:31 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (200003201447.GAA03339 lists1.best.com)
Bob Tolz wrote: "I look forward to responses
) from anthroposophists as to how they see themselves and their investigation."
Dear Everybody,
a small point before going on and giving my answer
to Bob's question. I have not received any e-mail from
the list since Saturday the 11th of March (until
today), and only this Sunday was Dan able to
resubscribe me. Dan has said he will get me digests of
the interveening days, but we all know he is busy, so
that will happen when it can happen. Anyone who had a
message they particularly wanted me to see, or which
was a reply to something of mine, should perhaps send a
copy directly to me (don't repost it to the list
please).
thanks,
joel
Dear Bob,
This is an interesting point, and I am glad raison
and you have brought it forward. I'll have to begin
with a personal story.
Years ago I became involved with a form of group
therapy being practiced in California. At a certain
point I was encouraged to become a lay practitioner of
this work (which I then did successfully for three
years). At the beginning of my training and my
"practice", a certain question came to me, which I
worked with very diligently.
I felt that I needed some justification for sharing
with "clients" my personal views about psychological
(or soul) life, or to put it another way: what made
what I thought valid or useful to others in a
theraputic setting? In this way I began a life long
habit of careful (and emperical) introspection.
Questions included: what are thoughts, what is
knowledge and so forth.
Eventually I developed a "method" of inner life,
very consciously developed, and which is described in
my essay "pragmatic moral psychology":
http://www.tiac.net/users/hermit/stgfr5.html
During this period of my life I began to have
"spiritual experiences", and eventually left the
practice of this therapy, in part because the
"paradigm" did not include the spiritual. Needless to
say I still had many unanswered questions.
I was also, at this point, not a true-believer of
any kind, having
previously obtained degrees in philosophy and law and
having spent three years at the USAF Academy, which has
a very strong scientific and engineering program. I
was, in fact, rather surprised and amazed at what was
occuring in my inner life.
Several years subsequent to this I encountered
Steiner, and was particularly attracted to one book: A
Theory of Knowledge Implicit in Goethe's World
Conception, which deepened and further justified the
experiences and thoughts I had already developed on my
own.
All of this involves having a certain attitude and
relationship to the life of thoughts. While inner
activity is clearly necessary for thought to arise,
there are quite a variety of "forms" of inner activity
in which one can engage. In all of this, however, there
remains as a central question: What is the nature of
the relationship between thought and experience?
Our scientific age approaches this question from a
certain point of view. Moreover, the educational
structures of our time, as well as the processes of
socialization of the young, induce in the human being
certain very definite attitudes toward this question.
We are in fact taught that "knowledge" cannot be found
without the support of certain processes, which include
but are not limited to: practiced doubt or skepticism,
logical reasoning, emperical observations, experiments,
and mathematic proofs.
Anthroposophy, as an inner practice, takes an
entirely different view, one which I had confirmed for
myself before ever meeting anthroposophy. Steiner
writes in the above noted book: "Thought is the last
member in the series of processes whereby Nature is
formed". Emerson, an "anthroposophist" before Steiner,
put it this way in his essay Nature: "Nature is a
thought incarnate and turns to thought again as ice
becomes water and then gas. The world is mind
precipitated and the volatile essence is forever
escaping into the state of free thought."
This view is monism, as opposed to the dualism
(mind-body split) of the dominant paradigm of our age,
natural science. Now monism and dualism aren't
opposites or mutually exclusive things, but rather
spectrum ends of possible states of being. One is not
either a dualist or a monist by temperment or
philosophy. These are not "points of view". Our
consciousness (soul) orients itself toward the world in
a dualist way or in a monist way, or in various
inbetween states. To trust one's intutions is to be a
monist. To demand of another that they prove their
point of view through double-blind testing is to be a
dualist.
Many people who come to anthroposophy remain, in
practice, exactly as they were raised by our culture,
that is as "dualists". For them then, anthroposophical
"ideas" and conceptions become "beliefs", which are far
too often (as the critics have observed again and
again) accepted completely uncritically.
Monism is the natural result of a Christian
practice (Hi Christian!, I expect you will chime in
here) that is awake to the scientific age. When Christ
taught "the kingdom of heaven is at hand", He was not
refering to some soon to come temporal moment, but to
the existence of the "spirit", where the writer of
Revelations points us by saying: "I was in the spirit
on the
Lord's day..." (Rev: 1:10).
After many years of working in anthroposophical
groups, I felt the need to write some criticism of a
kind of lack of epistomological discipline within the
group life as I had experienced it. This essay was
called: "Rudolf Steiner's Lecture Cycles and the
Problem of Cognition: musings on the epistomological
swampland of the anthroposophcial movement."
http://www.tiac.net/users/hermit/oajnr.html
This essay was discovered on my website by one
Lorenzo Ravagli, who then translated it into German,
and published it in the Jahrbuck fur anthroposophiische
Kritick 1998. (along with another essay of mine).
There is "critical thinking" in the
anthroposophical movement, assumptions and prejudices
of the "critics" aside.
The question raised by the above essay was whether the
reading of a Steiner text (or any text for that matter)
constituted "knowledge" from an epistemological point
of view. I concluded that something I constructed in
my imagination, based upon the symbols written on a
page, could not be "knowledge", lacking the percept
(the experience). In terms of Steiner lectures, his
statement that there were two Jesus children was not
"knowledge" to me, because in order for knowledge to
arise in monism, there must be a uniting of percept and
concept, of experience and thought, and I, as a reader,
was not duplicating Steiner's experience, only
reimagining it.
However, before those critics who understand the above
jump up and shout "eureka!", let me add a few things.
One of the habits within the anthroposophical movement
is to call certain of Steiner's "ideas":
"indications". It is as if Steiner was point a finger
at something and say "look here".
Now when someone takes an "indication" and applies
their own thinking to some experience, it becomes
possible in that circumstance to unite percept and
concept. Consider our own list-mate Paulina L. She
reads Steiner. In reading she has no knowledge. But
she doesn't just read. She goes out and practices her
art/craft as a teacher of art in public schools. She
has
experiences in this situation. She can test an
"indication" in practice, at which point it can become
"knowledge" to her as well. Same for Waldorf teachers,
BD farmers, anthroposophical doctors etc. (One can
also meditate on a Steiner text, but that is a whole
other matter from an epistomolgical point of view. For
this discussion, I have limited myself to speaking
about merely reading.)
Now monism, as a practice, as an inner discipline,
requires "work". One is required to "organize" ones
inner life, to give form and substance where before
there was often only impulse and instinct. That which
has been externalized by science in the above mentioned
processes (practiced doubt or skepticism, logical
reasoning, emperical observations, experiments, and
mathematical proofs) has to become internalized into
various inner disciplines. But rather than working on
the material world and investigating the laws of
matter, one works on the immaterial life of the soul
and spirit seeking to discover its laws, as these
appear in the inner forum of one's own consciousness.
At certain phases of development, this work "spills
over" into another realm (across the threshold), where
that experience is realized that leads some to describe
the world of the senses as an illusion. This is
because one aspect of a spiritual experience is that it
is clearly more "real" (in fact intensely more real)
than the experiences of the senses.
Monism is not a different point of view than dualism.
The former is reality and the latter is the
appearences. Dualism seems obvious, a naturally
thought out perception of the nature of the world
because, as S.T. Coleridge called it, we have an
experience of "outness". Our everyday experience of
the world is that there is a world of the senses, "out"
there, and an interior world "in" here. There
"appears" to be a disconnect between the two.
Science is a very valid attempt to overcome the
problems of dualism and discover knowledge of the
"outness" in spite of the apparent split between the
exterior and interior worlds. Monism is the reality,
however, and we often experience this. For example,
many people will suddenly voice the same thought in the
identical language. We also will think of a person,
only to have the phone ring and it is them. Mothers
"know" things about their children. And so forth.
The disconnect is an aspect of the nature of human
consciousness in the present stage of evolution. Owen
Barfield and others call it "onlooker consciousness"
(outness), and see it as having been preceeded by
"original participation" (monism as a given), which can
be followed by "final participation" (a free return to
monism which only
develops if we choose to call it forth from its latent
condition in the soul).
Arguments on this list are often confused by the fact
that two "dualists" are talking to each other, with one
(the anthropop) believing in a monism, but not
recognizing it as such. The critic dualist naturally
wants knowledge to conform to the cultural norm
(science), and the anthropop dualist tries to "argue" a
monist view but sleeps through the fact that the basis
for "knowledge" in monism is entirely different from
the basis for knowledge in dualism.
Dualism is correct, given its assumptions. Monism is
also correct, in practice, but not in theory. In
monism there is no need for "theories", knowledge
having been placed on a different basis. In monism it
is the role (purpose) of human congnition to unite
percept and concept (experience and thought).
Knowledge is not something out there, waiting to be
discovered (one of the assumptions of dualism), but
rather knowledge is "created" by human activity. We
are "Nature" (both earthly and cosmic) knowing Itself.
warm regards,
joel
Tolz, Robert wrote:
) [Raison]
) ) Paulina Leonard to Alan Fine:
) )
) ) )I'm thinking that perhaps the idea of untold hierarchical
) ) beings below
) ) )the one true G-D, and these untold multitudes above
) ) humankind might just be too foreign a concept to you coming
) ) from a Jewish tradition. For, instance, I suspect that you
) ) don't believe in guardian angels, right?
) )
) ) )If I'm correct, then how is is possible for you to
) ) understand the concept of certain higher beings guiding,
) ) protecting and directing the development of an entire group of humans?
)
) [Raison]
) ) Anthroposophy is supposed to be an open-minded system of
) ) "doing the work yourself" in terms of world-view and the
) ) nature of reality.
) )
) ) Yet Paulina Leonard says, in effect, that one can't approach
) ) what is a central "concept" of Anthroposophy -- spirits'
) ) predestination and governance of humanity -- without
) ) "believing" in it.
)
) [snip]
)
) ) To most people, open-mindedness means admitting an idea to
) ) inspection, with the possibility that it might be either
) ) right or wrong, useful or not, true or false.
)
) [Bob Tolz]
) Well, I usually find myself in agreement with Paulina and
) disagreeing with Raison, but in this case I see much validity in what Raison
) has to say.
)
) If unqualified acceptance of a particular premise is a pre-requisite
) to reaching "independent" conclusions that follow from that premise, then I
) don't see that as a logical path to those conclusions starting from any
) point *prior* to acceptance of the premise. A person who has no basis to
) accept the initial premise needs to engage in a leap of logic to jump to the
) initial premise.
)
) On the other hand, if what Paulina meant in her "I suspect that you
) don't believe in guardian angels" comment was that "you *disbelieve* in
) guardian angels," then I can see Paulina's point to some extent. A premise
) of unqualified *dis*-belief is likely to be as much a barricade to
) open-minded thought as is a premise of unqualified belief.
)
) Yet, even if suspension of disbelief allows one to engage in the
) thought processes which allow the construction of an impressive edifice of
) ideas and understandings resulting from the premise, the whole exercise is
) academic and theoretical unless at some point the initial suspension of
) disbelief in the basic premise changes to acceptance and understanding of
) that premise.
)
) I suppose that the investigation of the consequences and conclusions
) which follow from such a premise could lead the "investigator" along a
) number of paths.
)
) One path could be that the initial suspension of disbelief
) transforms itself into belief, simply because of how deeply the investigator
) gets caught up in the process of the investigation and not because of
) anything which is discovered which links the premise to reality. That's the
) true believer scenario.
)
) Another potential path could be that the consequences and
) conclusions which the investigator encounters in exploring what follows from
) the premise are so linked to reality that it becomes hard to believe that
) the original premise is not linked to reality.
)
) A third path, of course, is that the investigator finds nothing
) substantial to support the initial premise, in which case the investigation
) is likely to be abandoned.
)
) I'm sure there are other paths as well. I look forward to responses
) from anthroposophists as to how they see themselves and their investigation.
)
) Bob Tolz
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2091.2 ---------------
From: "debra harvey" (debharve hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: paulina/my position
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 21:58:26 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
[Diana]
)Debra, at the risk of impertinence, I can't understand how you can assess
)the whole situation of Waldorf/Steiner/anthroposophy based on what two
)different "sides" are saying *about* Steiner. Read Steiner!
[Harve]
Diana, I took a class in Child Development at a Waldorf teacher training
school. I have also read several of his lectures. I think that it is a
life long process. If I was going to rely on secondary interpretations, I
can tell you that I would certainly trust Paulina's, Joes's, and Detlef's
scholarship on Steiner than I would the superficial "Steiner is bad"
commentary I see on the other side.
)
[Diana]
)Good plan. You might not find you would "fit" in Waldorf with this healthy
)attitude, however.
[Harve]
Diana, I'm sure that your perceptions are based on your experiences. I,
however, know some very strong people who sent their children through
Waldorf schools and had the same healthy attitude.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2091.3 ---------------
From: "Joel A. Wendt" (hermit tiac.net)
Subject: Re: Lack of Mechanism
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 17:17:10 -0500
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Dear Peter,
I don't know if you can find this essay, but it will at least give you the
direction of the deeper anthroposophical thinkers on what is really a good
question on your part. The essay is: "Potentization and the Peripheral Forces
of Nature, by George Adams. It is actually a lecture given in 1961 to The
British Homoeopathic Congress in London.
I have it in a collection of essays of Adams' called: "George Adams:
interpreter of Rudolf Steiner", Henry Goulden Limited, 1977, ISBN 0 904822 08
7.
I don't have access to a scanner, so I can't make a document and send it to
you. Also, as Adams is a trained physicist/mathematician, I couldn't begin to
summarize the text, which is 20 pages (including footnotes).
The nice part is because of your question I get to read it again.
warm regards,
joel
Peter Farrell wrote:
) Bob Tolz asks about my claim for the importance of the lack of mechanism
) for homeopathy. I guess my wording of this has been a little unclear. In a
) sense there is a suggestion of a mechanism for homeopathy. It is that the
) water (or whatever) is changed in some way (unclear to me) by the (initial)
) presence of the active (?) ingredient. What is important to the argument
) from my point of view is that for sufficiently dilute preparations there
) can be no memory of the initial presence of the solute. The randomising
) processes that are the processes that lead to solution in the first place
) destroy any such memory on time scales which are inversely proportional to
) the collision rate in the water. What's the time scale? At room
) temperature, about a picosecond (0.000000000001 seconds). I am happy to
) grant six orders of magnitude for diffusion effects. This brings the memory
) up to 1 microsecond. Chand has raised other important issues about which
) contaminant is active in the process. The difficulty is that a great deal
) is known and understood about the processes of purification and solution
) which is just at odds with the workings of homeopathy. If you say that
) homeopathy works, all of Chand's scientific publications have serious flaws
) in methodology which he and his collaborators did not contol for because
) they relied on current understanding of solutions as opposed to neosolution
) theory which will have to be developed to take account of the working of
) homeopathy.
)
) Under what circumstances should scientists start serious work on
) neosolution theory? When there is one 1 in 20 probability experiment
) reporting the efficacy of some homeopathic preparation? Is Chand really
) going to write to Cell and say "I didn't control for possible homeopathic
) effects in the solutions I used in the collection of the data for Desai CJ.
) Gindhart JG. Goldstein LSB. Zinn K. Cell. 84(4):599-609, 1996. I request
) that you publish the accompanying retraction of our conclusions." I'd like
) to see that.
)
) I take strong exception to an absolutely arbitrary change that Bob made. He
) changed the thread title. My main motivation which so far I have kept
) secret in contributing to the list is to hold the record for the largest
) number of posts featuring a participant's name. Bob, you haven't helped.
)
) Peter
)
) Peter Farrell Phone (+613) 9688 4282
) Optical Technology Research Laboratory Fax (+613) 9688 4698
) School of Communications and Informatics(F119)
) Victoria University Email peter.farrell vu.edu.au
) PO Box 14428 MCMC
) Melbourne 8001 Australia
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2091.4 ---------------
From: "Lisa Ercolano" (momof2gals mindspring.com)
Subject: on Mongolian spots and race
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 17:26:32 -0500
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In a continuing dialogue between Terry Boardman and Diana Winters on
Steiner's (and Terry's!) view of the various races of humankind, Terry
offers this:
))Why, for you, do those of East Asian origin, and only they have the )eyes
))they do? Why do they have the Mongolian Spot? etc.etc.
))First, who is making anything up? The northeast Asian eye fold -
))do Africans have them?
)
)
Lisa asks about this:
Terry, please tell me, WHAT possible spiritual meanings does the shape
of an East Asian person's eyes have? Or the Mongolian spot -- this is not
the first time you have mentioned the so-called Mongolian spot (which for
those who do not know is a small, bruise-colored splotch of pigmented skin
found on many Asian people's torsos or backsides/buttocks at birth. These
spots generally fade as the person grows. My daughter from China had a large
Mongolian spot on her right flank, and it has disappeared almost completely
now that she is 5 years old.)
Pray tell, Terry, what does having such a spot mean? While you're at it,
what does it mean that people from Scandinavia are generally fair-haired and
light-eyed, and that those whose origins come from below the equator in
Africa have dark skin (lots of melanin) ???
No one is disagreeing with you that different races of people have
different physical characteristics, or even that people who come from
various cultures across the world have different cultural characteristics,
from the festivals they celebrate to the way they express joy, anger or
sadness. While in the People's Republic, I found that most of the Chinese
people I spoke with were overtly friendly, smiled a lot and were forthright
in their questions, from ``How much money do you make?'' to ``How old are
you?'' -- questions that might seem a bit nosy coming from strangers on the
street in another culture.
I didn't automatically think that the difference derived from something
spiritual about the Chinese people; I respected the approach as customary --
coming from customs or what I would call ``culture.''
No matter how you sugar-coat Steiner's view (or at least Terry
Boardman's view of Steiner's view), you come up with a system that assigns
greater value to some races over others.
No, I do not think a baby or child has less ``worth'' or ``value'' than
does an adult. But again, adults are the ones who make the laws, who run the
world, etc. Adults generally accept that children need to be guided (Steiner
sure did -- look at all the time he spent writing about how important it is
for children to look up to their parents and teachers with ``unquestioning''
authority and love!!! Look at the emphasis Steiner put on the way in which
children should be educated -- or suffer disastrous results in health and
spirit. That emphasis on bringing children up correctly is the whole basis
of Waldorf education, isn't it?)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2091.5 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: on Mongolian spots and race
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 14:51:49 -0800
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On 22 Mar 2000, at 17:26, Lisa Ercolano wrote:
) Terry Boardman offers this:
)
) ))Why, for you, do those of East Asian origin, and only they have the )eyes
) ))they do? Why do they have the Mongolian Spot? etc.etc.
) ))First, who is making anything up? The northeast Asian eye fold -
) ))do Africans have them?
) )
) Lisa asks about this:
) Terry, please tell me, WHAT possible spiritual meanings does the shape
) of an East Asian person's eyes have? Or the Mongolian spot --
) Pray tell, Terry, what does having such a spot mean?
Yes, Terry, please tell us!
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carbonata descendum pantorum."
(A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.)
http://members.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2091.6 ---------------
From: "Sarina McDonald" (pandora aa.net)
Subject: Black Crayons and Stereotypes (WAS: Re: paulina/my position)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 14:52:53 -0800
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)Good plan. You might not find you would "fit" in Waldorf with this healthy
)attitude, however.
)
)Diana
FYI, Diana, I fit just fine at my son's school with MY healthy attitude.
Chand's wife, a Waldorf teacher, gives her students black crayons. Yet I
withheld them from my son Will, because he made an awful mess with them.
When I gave him colors only, he was SO creative with them! You should see
his beautiful creations: he had learned about backgrounds in my school, but
he seemed to discover foregrounds and perspective all by himself. I am a
non-Anthroposophist who withholds black crayons for aesthetic reasons: no
'oogey' spiritual shtuff about it - my kid did better work without black,
period.
The recent discussions on this list about black crayons gave me a great
idea, though: explain to Will that there is only a *little* black in nature
and the world, so he should be very careful about how he uses it.
So I did, and he said,
"But roads are black."
I said "Are they? Let's go out and look."
Well, what do you know, they are grey (at least around here. In the south
they're red.) Will was surprised to discover how many things he had assumed
to be black, were actually not when he went to look closely at them. He made
this discovery on his own, with my guidance. I did not just tell him "roads
are grey." Now when he uses black, it is very carefully - his work no longer
suffers from incongruous black splotches, he has discovered shading and
color combining, and he has learned a couple new ways of looking at the
world.
The view that "Waldorf schools are all alike" would seem to suggest that
Chand's wife would not ever give black crayons to her students - and by
extension, I should not care if my child makes an ugly black mess with his
crayons because I am not an Anthropop. In fact, this discussion on-list made
me draw yet another valuable lesson from WE to apply to my professional life
as a teacher!
It is obviously a flawed argument to say that all Waldorf schools are alike,
which is what your post about "healthy attitudes" implies.
Will's W. KG teacher thought it was remarkable that he knew and could
remember so many Beatles songs (probably that oral tradition/verbal ability
thing they like to fuss over), did not seem to mind that he plays the drums
and electric guitar, and thought it very reasonable for him to be reading at
a young age since I also read early as a child.
So it seems that it is possible to be somewhat healthy and get along fine in
a Waldorf school.
I admit that *some* Waldorf school faculty would express dismay at my
choices in raising my child, but state again - emphatically - that these
schools are not the same all over and it is simply wrong to say that they
are. Not to mention misleading. And innaccurate.
In fact, it is almost as wrong as saying this or that person behaves a
certain way because of their race. It is EXACTLY like saying, "Oh, I can't
tell one _____ from another - you people are all alike."
---------------------------
Sarina McDonald
pandora aa.net
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2091.7 ---------------
From: Terry Boardman (terry.boardman cableinet.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Reincarnation and materialism
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 23:42:24 +0000
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) From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
) Subject: Re: Reincarnation and materialism
) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 08:56:15 -0800
)
)
) On 22 Mar 2000, at 3:27, Diana Winters wrote:
)
) ) [Terry]
) )
) ) )Those who "believe" in the cosmic heat death prescribed by the Second Law
) ) )of Thermodynamics must come to terms with the notion that all of human
) ) )love and culture is totally meaningless and pointless.
) )
) ) What??! There aren't any scientific theories that would convince me human
) ) love and culture are meaningless and pointless.
)
) Of course not. This comes up time and again. Many Anthroposophists like
) to think that materialists are full of despair and emptiness, and if not,
) they don't understand the philosophical implications of their own world
) view.
)
"Many Anthroposophists like to think..." How many have you met who think
like you say about materialists? I certainly don't. I have met many atheists
and materialists who are jovial people who seem to live full lives. However,
that doesn't mean they have necessarily thought through the ramifications
of their philosophical positions. Consider the following from two who did
at least reckon honestly with what they felt to be the philosophical
consequences of the Second Law of Thermodynamics:
First, Bertrand Russell:
"...all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the
noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the
vast death of the solar system, and the whole temple of Man's achievements
must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins -
all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain that
no philosophy which rejects them can hope to stand. Only within the
scaffolding of these truths, on the firm foundation of unyielding despair,
can the soul's habitation henceforth be safely built."
(B.Russell, Why I am not a Christian, New York 1957, p 107)
Note Russell still refers to the 'soul'. Much scientific thinking has already
dispensed with that hoary superstition since his time. Indeed, what's the
point of having one if Russell's gloomy scenario represents the truth?
Secondly, Sir Arthur Eddington:
"The law that entropy always increases - the Second Law of Thermodynamics
- holds, I think, the supreme position among the laws of nature. If someone
points out to you that your pet theory of the Universe is in disagreement
with Maxwell's equations, then so much the worse for Maxwell's
equations. If it is found to be contradicted by observation - well these
experimentalists do bungle things somethimes. But if your theory is found
to be against the Second Law of Thermodynamics I can give you no hope;
there is nothing for it but to collapse in the deepest humiliation."
(A.S. Eddington, The Nature of the Physical World, Cambridge University
Press, 1928, p.74)
Both of the two quotes above from Paul Davies, The Cosmic Blueprint,
Unwin, London 1987 pp 19-20)
)
) This kind of misrepresentation of others' belief systems is a form of
) bigotry and prejudice. We see plenty of that on this list, on both sides.
)
Simply stating that something is bigotry and prejudice without engaging
in discussion is itself an example of bigotry and prejudice, I would have
thought...
Terry
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2091.8 ---------------
From: "Alan S. Fine MD" (asf peakpeak.com)
Subject: Re: Spiritual Inspiration for Nazism - Part 2
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:50:39 -0700
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)
) ) Sean Slovan wrote:
) )) I have already noticed your lack of care in handling and presenting
text
) )) excerpts. I only hope for your patients that you are more conscientious
as a
) )) medic.
)
) Sune Nordwall wrote:
) ) I'm sure Alan, like the probably very great majority of docs, is a
) ) good and conscientious doc for his patients.
)
) I was speaking as a professional to a professional, making an appeal to
his
) professionality. I am a professional historian, teaching history to young
) students at university and elsewhere. And I am very aware of my
professional
) responsabilty. If I would do in medicine, what Alan does to historical
) questions, I would be a quacksalber with several dead corpses on my
account.
) But thoughts don't kill, or do they?
)
) Sean Slovan
Sean,
First of all I am not trying to be a historian, I was trying to answer
Debra's question about what types of Nazi inspirations remind me of Steiner
inspirations. I was paraphrasing Rosenberg's "Race and Mythos" section of
"Der Mythus". It reminds me of some things Steiner says, and in other ways
it feels different to me. You are a scholarly person. If you've read this
section of "Der Mythus" I'd be interested in your own comparing and
contrasting.
As far as being a professional historian is concerned would you be
commenting on my "lack of care" in handling text if I were supporting
Steiner? I leave you to think about that.
Alan Fine
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2091.9 ---------------
From: "Alan S. Fine MD" (asf peakpeak.com)
Subject: Re: Spiritual Inspiration for Nazism - Part 2
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 17:02:05 -0700
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)
) ) Sean Slovan wrote:
) )) I have already noticed your lack of care in handling and presenting
text
) )) excerpts. I only hope for your patients that you are more conscientious
as a
) )) medic.
)
) Sune Nordwall wrote:
) ) I'm sure Alan, like the probably very great majority of docs, is a
) ) good and conscientious doc for his patients.
)
) I was speaking as a professional to a professional, making an appeal to
his
) professionality. I am a professional historian, teaching history to young
) students at university and elsewhere. And I am very aware of my
professional
) responsabilty. If I would do in medicine, what Alan does to historical
) questions, I would be a quacksalber with several dead corpses on my
account.
) But thoughts don't kill, or do they?
)
) Sean Slovan
One other thought. I first read this Rosenberg book about 15 years ago, in
response to certain patients I was treating who were involved in Neonazism
and sexually and physically abusive occult rituals. That was ten years
before I knew of Anthroposophy's existence. I admit that starting with
Rosenberg and moving to Steiner gives one a different perspective than the
other way around.
Alan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2091.10 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: Reincarnation and materialism
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:08:06 -0800
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On 22 Mar 2000, at 23:42, Terry Boardman wrote:
) ) From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
) ) Many Anthroposophists like
) ) to think that materialists are full of despair and emptiness, and if not,
) ) they don't understand the philosophical implications of their own world
) ) view.
)
) "Many Anthroposophists like to think..." How many have you met who think
) like you say about materialists?
I believe I've had detailed discussions about this, on this list, at least
twice. OK, two people is not "many," but I didn't see any
anthroposophists chiming in and agreeing with me that one may be a
philosophical materialist, fully understand that position, and still lead
a life filled with love, a sense of purpose and wonder, and personal
satisfaction.
) I certainly don't. I have met many atheists and materialists who are
) jovial people who seem to live full lives. However, that doesn't mean
) they have necessarily thought through the ramifications of their
) philosophical positions.
Well, since you don't think the way I have described, then you must agree
that at least some materialists who have thought out the ramifications of
their philosophical positions nevertheless lead full, satisfying lives.
Glad to hear it! Sorry I got the wrong impression.
) Simply stating that something is bigotry and prejudice without engaging
) in discussion is itself an example of bigotry and prejudice, I would have
) thought...
Well, I don't see how it is bigoted to recognize bigotry without wanting
to discuss it, but in any event, I'm here discussing it.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carbonata descendum pantorum."
(A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.)
http://members.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2091 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2092 --------------
001 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - RE: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching (long)
002 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Robert Jan Kelder
003 - Peter Farrell (peter.farr - RE: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching
004 - "Alan S. Fine MD" (asf pe - Re: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching (long)
005 - Chand.Desai mcmail.vander - RE: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching (long)
006 - Peter Farrell (peter.farr - Re: Reincarnation and materialism
007 - Chand.Desai mcmail.vander - RE: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching
008 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching (long)
009 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - RE: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching
010 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: Reincarnation and materialism
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2092.1 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: RE: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching (long)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 10:55:41 -0800
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References: (200003210625.WAA14291 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200003210625.WAA14291 lists1.best.com)
3/20/00, Chand.Desai mcmail.vanderbilt.edu wrote:
)All right Peter, you asked for it....
)
)Journal of Traditional Chinese Medicine. 18(1):55-63, 1998
)Experimental research has recently shown that acupuncture induces
)the formation of opioid-like peptides (OLPs) in animals.
I take anything from Chinese traditional or alt med journals with a
big grain of salt. I purchased a set of papers from the Qui Gong
Institute a few years ago, and all of them were sub-science fair
level science. Sure, the experimenters used scientific equipment, and
scientific language in the reports, but the method was missing. I
hope things have improved, but given that the alt med fields have
their own journals everywhere (because their self-serving "research"
doesn't meet real standards) I doubt it.
(snip)
)Acupuncture needle
)manipulation was performed at Large Intestine 4 (LI 4, Hegu) on
)the hand in 13 subjects [Stux, 1997].
A study done at the University of California Medical Center here a
few years ago compared the use of prescribed acupuncture points with
random points. Both were equally effective, which indicates that the
meridian theory is unlikely to be useful.
(snip)
)We hypothesize that modulation of subcortical
)structures may be an important mechanism by which acupuncture exerts
) its complex multisystem effects.
Do other placebos have similar effects?
(snip)
)Journal of Substance Abuse Treatment. 17(4):305-12, 1999 Dec.
)"...We determined that acupuncture detoxification programs are a useful
)component of a substance abuse treatment system. "
Doubtful.
)Pain. 83(2):235-41, 1999 Nov. -" Acupuncture with penetration of
)the skin was shown to be more effective than a similar therapeutic setting
)with placebo needling in the treatment of pain. "
What was the difference? Generally the more invasive, the more
powerful the placebo action (surgery being the most powerful placebo
known).
)Ostomy Wound Management. 44(5):24-9, 1998 May
)Complementary therapies, in particular magnet therapy, may have
)benefits to offer in healing chronic wounds. This case study
)involves a 51 year old paraplegic woman with an abdominal wound that
)had been present for one year. Traditional approaches to wound care
)had not achieved complete healing. Prior to surgical intervention,
)the patient consented to the application of magnet therapy over her
)usual wound dressing. In one month, the wound completely healed. On
)the basis of this case, further investigation of magnet therapy for
)wound healing appears to be warranted.
One case? Give me a break, not worth the paper it's printed on.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2092.2 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Robert Jan Kelder
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 02:04:57 +0100
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References: (LOBBIFGEEJBILODKGLCHAEFJCCAA.winst wxs.nl) (200003211734.JAA03607 lists1.best.com)
Dan wrote:
) , "AS Phillippines" (asp info.com.ph)
) This must be the cell that claims to be converting the Philippines to
) The Threefold Social Order (one "L" Robert, it's named for King
) Philip of Spain).
) , "David Tresemer" (asc dimensional.com)
"Cell"?? What world do you live in? I somewhere remember having seen
"cell" in descriptions of revolutionary communist organisations in the
70s', referring to isolated units in the organisation with no direct
knowledge of and contact with the other units in the organisation. Not
a very good description of anthroposophical societies I'd say. And
what has "L" Robert and King Philip of Spain to do with the AS in the
Phillippines?? And who is "L" Robert?
) , "David Heaf" ...
) UK contact for Ifgene, Anthropop front organization about genetic engineering.
"front"?? It has organised one big conference that took place at
Goetheanum 2-5 October, 1996, http://www.anth.org/ifgene/confer.htm.
You think it was held there to hide from someone that it has an
anthroposophical basis? Or that it is to hide its context to have its
website at the address http://www.anth.org/ifgene/?? Describing its
origin and affiliations at http://www.anth.org/ifgene/affiliat.htm??
Run out of arguments ...?
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2092.3 ---------------
From: Peter Farrell (peter.farrell vu.edu.au)
Subject: RE: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 14:06:04 +1100
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It is relatively easy to make a list of papers. It is unbeleiveably time
consuming to chase them down and check out what happened. And I am saying
that as a person with the tools provided and considerable experience in
using them.
So far I have checked out one of Chand's citations supporting the efficacy
of acupuncture.
)JAMA. 280(18):1580-4, 1998 Nov 11. This one will blow your mind!
)Inserting needles into the corners of the fifth toenail causes breech babies
)to become "cephalic". Want to postulate a mechanism? A "controlled
randomized
)study to boot!
)
It did blow my mind. It is fascinating to consider what might make babies
or their mothers decide to be head down rather than head up. My reading of
this is that the researchers used moxibustion (herb burning (simplification
alert)) at an acupuncture point on one of the toes. They did lots of this.
One of the virtues of JAMA is that correspondence which results from
publication is also published. Some correspondence for this paper was
published (JAMA 282(14), 1329-1330, 1999). There are criticisms of the
paper by two different sets of correspondents, and a reply by the authors
of the original paper. I quote from the author's response. "On the other
hand, our research cannot clarify whether the treatment is more or less
effective than an active placebo treatment, and in the article, we
explained why we were unable to address this issue." Evidently, this
research is not placebo controlled, or, at least, only partially so. That
does not mean that this technique does not work. It only means that this
paper is incomplete evidence that it might work. I am happy to agree that
this is my view. Chand or Alan Fine or anyone else for that matter might
like to have a look at the references above and agree that I have not
misrepresented the issue or disagree with my interpretation.
That took me more than an hour to chase down. And it is the easiest one for
me to do given that there is essentially no medical research at the
institution where I work. The library here subscribes to JAMA but not to
the other journals. The most annoying issue was that some miscreant has
pinched number 18 of volume 280 of JAMA from our library.
I'll attempt to check more of these out, but those holding their breaths
should perhaps reconsider.
Peter
Peter Farrell Phone (+613) 9688 4282
Optical Technology Research Laboratory Fax (+613) 9688 4698
School of Communications and Informatics(F119)
Victoria University Email peter.farrell vu.edu.au
PO Box 14428 MCMC
Melbourne 8001 Australia
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2092.4 ---------------
From: "Alan S. Fine MD" (asf peakpeak.com)
Subject: Re: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching (long)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 20:57:44 -0700
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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References: (200003210625.WAA14291 lists1.best.com) (200003230038.QAA20484 lists1.best.com)
Dan writes,
)
) What was the difference? Generally the more invasive, the more
) powerful the placebo action (surgery being the most powerful placebo
) known).
)
This is true in my experience, but I've been having trouble finding a good
reference for this. Do you happen to have one?
Alan Fine
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2092.5 ---------------
From: Chand.Desai mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Subject: RE: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching (long)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 22:15:28 -0600
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[Dan]:
)I take anything from Chinese traditional or alt med journals with a
big grain of salt....
I only cited one article from an "alt med journal" The rest were not. You are
really displaying a closed mind in the rest of your response, Dan. You comment
on a few lines in the abstracts but clearly have not read the articles. Neither
have I, so you may be right - but you have come to your conclusions in a most
unscientific, shall we say, cult-like manner.
)From the brief reading of the abstracts that I did, it is clear that the people
doing the studies were well aware of the placebo effect and were trying to deal
with it. Whether or not they did a good job can only be determined by reading
the methods section - a good treatment for insomnia.
[Dan]:
)What was the difference? Generally the more invasive, the more
)powerful the placebo action (surgery being the most powerful placebo
)known).
)From this statement, all of Western surgical intervention must be held as
suspect. Show me the controlled studies demonstrating open coronary bypass
surgery as a more effective treatment for coronary artery disease than say
spleen removal as a placebo control. I doubt that animal models would suffice
in studying your placebo effect.
For the record, 591 articles with "acupuncture" as a key word come up in a
Medline search of articles published from May 1997 until March 2000. 488 of
these are in English. The first 10 articles (the most recent) were in the
following journals, with volume # in (): Anaesthesia. (54), Tobacco Control.
(8), Journal of Clinical Oncology. (18), Harvard Health Letter. (25),
Cephalalgia. (19), Journal of the American Dietetic Association. (100), Hawaii
Medical Journal. (58), Canadian Veterinary Journal. (40), Palliative Medicine.
(13), Alternative Therapies in Health & Medicine. (5).
Only the last of these journals is obviously an "alt med journal". Generally,
the higher the volume # the longer the journal has been around which may reflect
a certain quality of publication. You have to sort through a few more citations
before you get to more widely read Journals: # 16 Obstetrics & Gynecology.
(95), #20 Journal of the National Cancer Institute. (92), #21 JAMA. (283), #24
Lancet (354), etc. Note that not all of the articles are studies. For example,
the Lancet article is on archeological evidence (mummies!) of medical practices.
Chand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2092.6 ---------------
From: Peter Farrell (peter.farrell vu.edu.au)
Subject: Re: Reincarnation and materialism
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:19:24 +1100
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Terry Boardman
)
)No. This is a misunderstanding. I am no more "enthusiastic" about
)coming back for repeated existences than I am about repeated sojourns
)in the spiritual world between earth lives. It's not a question of being
)"enthusiastic". It's just a question of going with what is.
)Materialists, like conventional Christians,
)must come to terms with their notion that they have only one physical
)existence in all the aeons of Time. Their origin, genetic makeup and fate
)is as much of a mystery to them (though no doubt they would say otherwise
)and explain the physical processes behind how their existences come
)about and cease) as it is to mystics. Those who "believe" in the
)cosmic heat death prescribed by the Second Law of Thermodynamics
)must come to terms with the notion that all of human love and culture is
)totally meaningless and pointless. Some of them try to pass this off as a
)heroic/stoic stance (Bertrand Russell's 'unyielding despair' or Sir Arthur
)Eddington's 'deepest humiliation'). Conventional Christians believe they
)are created as souls by God for this one life and after death, will be
)with God in a vague place called "Heaven"
I note others have responded to this but I would like to as well. I agree
entirely that my existence is as much of a mystery to me as any mystic. Can
I understand why I exist for this insignificant fraction of the life of the
universe. I can't. Nor do I expect science to do this at any time. I have
to come to terms with my own immortality. Currently, the consensus is that
this heat death of the universe is likely, although a series (possibly
infinite) of bounces is also hypothesized. I can't get too excited about
scientific predictions which are at the very weak edge of certainty. If we
can really sort out how much mass there is in the universe we may be in a
better position to know. Is the universe immortal or not? Nobody knows.
What is clear is that the sun is mortal. We won't have warm afternoons at
the beach forever. Perhaps by the time this is an issue we may be able to
do something about it. Who knows. I don't agree that this means that human
love and culture is meaningless or pointless. My children who are young
enough to be completely unaware and uninterested in the possible heat death
of the universe don't think my love for them is meaningless or pointless
and I think they are right. Mind you they don't know that their father is
an atheist materialist either.
Peter
Peter Farrell Phone (+613) 9688 4282
Optical Technology Research Laboratory Fax (+613) 9688 4698
School of Communications and Informatics(F119)
Victoria University Email peter.farrell vu.edu.au
PO Box 14428 MCMC
Melbourne 8001 Australia
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2092.7 ---------------
From: Chand.Desai mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Subject: RE: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 22:28:24 -0600
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Thanks for doing the work, Peter. If it is a placebo effect, it is as good as
most "real" cures. 3/4 of the mothers 130 treated with acupuncture delivered
head first whereas less than 2/3 of the "control" group (also 130) treated with
"external cephalic version" - I don't know what this is but it appears to be the
more standard treatment - delivered head first.
I haven't read it in detail like Peter, nor followed up with the letters, so I
accept his opinion on it:
[Peter]:
)It only means that this
)paper is incomplete evidence that it might work.
Chand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2092.8 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching (long)
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 04:35:10 GMT
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[Dan writes]
)Generally the more invasive, the more powerful the placebo action (surgery
)being the most powerful placebo known).
[Alan]
)This is true in my experience, but I've been having trouble finding )a good
)reference for this. Do you happen to have one?
There was a piece in the Sunday Times magazine not long ago about somebody
studying surgery as placebo, i.e., deliberately performing sham surgeries
for comparison with real surgeries to detect a placebo effect. Sort of
complicated ethically.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2092.9 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 04:42:31 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
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[Chand]
)3/4 of the mothers 130 treated with acupuncture delivered
)head first whereas less than 2/3 of the "control" group (also 130) )treated
)with "external cephalic version" - I don't know what this is )but it
)appears to be the more standard treatment - delivered head )first.
I believe external cephalic version just means turning the baby around by,
well, literally turning it around, from the outside. Hard to imagine, but
some midwives apparently can do it.
Diana
______________________________________________________
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2092.10 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Reincarnation and materialism
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 04:49:21 GMT
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[Diana]
)There aren't any scientific theories that would convince me human
)love and culture are meaningless and pointless.
[Steve]
) ) Of course not. This comes up time and again. Many )Anthroposophists
)like to think that materialists are full of despair )and emptiness, and if
)not, they don't understand the philosophical )implications of their own
)world view.
[Terry, neatly slipping on the shoe Steve has suggested might fit:]
)I have met many atheists and materialists who are jovial people who )seem
)to live full lives.
Ah, they only *seem* to live full lives, despair and emptiness behind the
smiling faces. "Jovial," Terry? Like Santa Claus?
[Terry]
)However, that doesn't mean they have necessarily thought through )the
)ramifications of their philosophical positions.
Well, who has? A Steve Premo-esque argument comes to mind here; you can
probably find holes, or inconsistencies, or
places-where-the-ramifications-haven't-been-thought-through in most peoples'
world views. I suspect atheists have done more, rather than less, thinking
about the ramifications of their world view than many religious people. In a
sense this entire list is about whether anthroposophists have "thought
through the ramifications of their philosophical positions"; some of us have
noticed a few little problems.
)Consider the following from two who did at least reckon honestly )with what
)they felt to be the philosophical consequences of the )Second Law of
)Thermodynamics:
)First, Bertrand Russell:
)"...all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the )inspiration,
)all the noonday brightness of human genius, are )destined to extinction in
)the vast death of the solar system,
Well, this is a depressive you're quoting. If you want to despair it isn't
hard to find a reason. Many religious ideas depress me more than the
possible death of the solar system a few gazillion years from now. In fact
few things can send me into a dark place faster than childhood memories of
church.
Diana
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--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2092 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2093 --------------
001 - Chand.Desai mcmail.vander - RE: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching (long)
002 - paulina leonard (pkleonar - Re: Response to Paulina Leonard.
003 - Chand.Desai mcmail.vander - RE: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching
004 - Sean Slovan (sean.slovan - Re: Spiritual Inspiration for Nazism - Part 2
005 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: Black Crayons and Stereotypes
006 - Chand.Desai mcmail.vander - Re: Reincarnation and materialism
007 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Reincarnation and materialism
008 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Black Crayons and Stereotypes
009 - Chand.Desai mcmail.vander - RE: Reincarnation and materialism
010 - Chand.Desai mcmail.vander - RE: Black Crayons and Stereotypes
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2093.1 ---------------
From: Chand.Desai mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Subject: RE: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching (long)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 22:48:59 -0600
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I forgot to address Dan's comments on the magnet reference. As I wrote, at the
time I did the Medline search, only 3 citations came up - one being a letter
asking as the efficacy of magnets in for treating back pain. The second found
no use for magnets in treating snoring.
Of the third, Dan writes:
)One case? Give me a break, not worth the paper it's printed on.
Dan is right that a single case is no basis for a theory. The authors make no
grandiose claims, instead concluding:
"On the basis of this case, further investigation of magnet therapy for
wound healing appears to be warranted."
Do you really have a problem with an indication for further research, Dan?
Perhaps you would forgo a potentially effective treatment because it shouldn't
work.
Chand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2093.2 ---------------
From: paulina leonard (pkleonard sprintmail.com)
Subject: Re: Response to Paulina Leonard.
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 22:50:21 -0500
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Diana Winters wrote:
) Paulina,
)
) Thank you for your very detailed response. The only part I'm really still
) confused about is in what way the line is part of the memory of life before
) birth.
Dear Diana,
I don't feel qualified to be of help with your
question.
I studied Steiner for about twenty-five years, but,
my main focus of study has been the Christologies.
I've always found the idea of my personally treading
consciously across the threshold somewhat off-putting.
Frankly I've always been a bit suspect about this
particuliar desire and i trust that my spiritual
guidance
will lead me to what I both need and am ready for when
the time is right.
I find this day-consciousness world difficult enough to
comprehend and deal with. I realize that there is a
lot
of talk about coming to knowledge of higher worlds
among
anthroposphists and others invovled in the esoteric. I
even remember that my second Steiner book was "KOHW".
I read it and thought to myself "Why?" and gave the
book
away because Christ wasn't mentioned anywhere.
I hope someone else can answer your question.
I will try to find the time _next week_ to write you
and
Lisa and others more on line and the infamous black
crayon
from the perspective of several important artists.
Best,
Paulina
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2093.3 ---------------
From: Chand.Desai mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Subject: RE: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 22:50:59 -0600
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[Diana]:
)I believe external cephalic version just means turning the baby around by,
)well, literally turning it around, from the outside. Hard to imagine, but
)some midwives apparently can do it.
Sounds like sumo wrestling for fetuses :-)
Chand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2093.4 ---------------
From: Sean Slovan (sean.slovan gmx.net)
Subject: Re: Spiritual Inspiration for Nazism - Part 2
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 08:39:03 +0100
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Alan Fine wrote:
) As far as being a professional historian is concerned would you be
) commenting on my "lack of care" in handling text if I were supporting
) Steiner? I leave you to think about that.
Yes, I would. There are far too many Anthroposophists who miss this "lack of
care" altogether. And I can assure you that I address this as much as I did
it in this case. Myself, I am mortal, too, but I assume my responsabilities
when I realize that I was wrong inspite of my efforts to be "throroughly". I
am sure that you can agree that this is the proper attitude among
scientists.
Sean Slovan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2093.5 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Black Crayons and Stereotypes
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 13:06:31 GMT
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[Sarina]
)FYI, Diana, I fit just fine at my son's school with MY healthy )attitude.
Sarina, is your child still in the Waldorf school? If not, why did you
leave?
)Chand's wife, a Waldorf teacher, gives her students black crayons. )Yet
)Iwithheld them from my son Will, because he made an awful mess )with them.
I don't get this. I really don't. What kind of a mess do you mean? Did he
draw on the walls or the floor or the cat? Assuming you don't mean this, you
just mean a "mess" on the paper, what is wrong with a mess? How many small
children *don't* make a mess at least sometimes with art supplies of any
sort?
)I am a non-Anthroposophist who withholds black )crayons for )aesthetic
)reasons: no 'oogey' spiritual shtuff about it )- my kid )did better work
)without black, period.
Okay, to each his own. I still don't understand what's "better" art work for
a 5 year old, isn't that how old your son is? We keep hearing stories that
suggest the kids just go crazy with black, quiet well-behaved children who
usually draw pretty flowers suddenly just scribble wildly or make ugly
blobs; though it seems to be more about the behavior than what ends up on
the paper. Maybe if I had seen this with my own son I would understand, but
he seems to have a neutral relationship to black, though admittedly in
public school first grade they are reinforcing the idea that black is to
make outlines. He makes outlines with it but doesn't seem to have this big
emotional relationship with the black crayon. I have a suspicion this
getting-out-of-control-with-black business has something to do with the
adult's expectations or anxieties, or a preconceived idea that black is
going to make some kind of problem.
)Will was surprised to discover how many things he had assumed
)to be black, were actually not when he went to look closely at them.
Maybe this is about cultural conventions again, and they learn it from
picture books. I don't think it's thereby "wrong." I think of roads as black
too.
)It is obviously a flawed argument to say that all Waldorf schools )are
)alike,
Well no doubt that is a flawed argument, Sarina, but how we got here from
there I don't know. Once again you are arguing with someone other than me.
)which is what your post about "healthy attitudes" implies.
No. My post said she might not fit in in Waldorf with that attitude. I'm
afraid that might often be the case. I do think parents who are very
straightforward, assertive, and confident have a better chance of picking
and choosing what they like and don't like in Waldorf, and will not be given
as much grief as a less-confident parent. Other parents are given a lot of
grief and simply do not care; neurotic types like me take constant criticism
hard, even if it is just the perpetually raised eyebrows.
It is possible to send your child through Waldorf and keep your healthy
attitude, but my observation was that some parents were able to do this *in
spite of* pressures and disapproval from the teachers.
)Will's W. KG teacher thought it was remarkable that he knew and could
)remember so many Beatles songs (probably that oral tradition/verbal
) )ability thing they like to fuss over), did not seem to mind that he
) )plays the drums and electric guitar, and thought it very reasonable )for
)him to be reading at a young age since I also read early as a )child.
)So it seems that it is possible to be somewhat healthy and get along )fine
)in a Waldorf school.
Yes. A key variable, in my experience, was whether the teacher was an
anthroposophist. Was your son's kindergarten teacher an anthroposophist? My
son had one teacher who would have taken the same attitudes your son's
teacher did, and this teacher knew little and cared less about
anthroposophy. The other three teachers he had, all anthroposophists, would
have been appalled, horrified, despairing.
Your son would have been spending entire days wrapped in silks if he was
reading, singing Beatles songs, and playing electric guitar at age 5.
))these schools are not the same all over and it is simply wrong to )say
))that they are. Not to mention misleading. And innaccurate.
Yes, wrong, misleading, and inaccurate. When you hear someone say this, tell
them I said it is wrong, misleading, and inaccurate.
)In fact, it is almost as wrong as saying this or that person behaves )a
)certain way because of their race. It is EXACTLY like saying, "Oh, )I can't
)tell one _____ from another - you people are all alike."
No, it is definitely not like stereotyping based on race. Becoming a Waldorf
teacher and/or anthroposophist is not a condition one is born into and has
no choice about, but an action one takes voluntarily, joining a group that
define themselves as believing certain things and taking certain
well-defined approaches. Waldorf teachers are no doubt very happy to have
certain positive characteristics attributed to them as a group, or certain
beliefs or attitudes, or to be described as generally using a particular
technique they are proud of. This wouldn't be equivalent to, say, "blacks
have rhythm."
Furthermore, describing the actions or self-professed beliefs of a
particular self-selected group of people in negative terms is *not* the same
as making statements about their spiritual "status" or even their
"temperament."
Diana
Diana
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2093.6 ---------------
From: Chand.Desai mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Subject: Re: Reincarnation and materialism
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 08:05:18 -0600
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[Terry]
))However, that doesn't mean they have necessarily thought through )the
))ramifications of their philosophical positions.
[Diana]:
)Well, who has? A Steve Premo-esque argument comes to mind here; you can
)probably find holes, or inconsistencies, or
)places-where-the-ramifications-haven't-been-thought-through in most peoples'
)world views. I suspect atheists have done more, rather than less, thinking
)about the ramifications of their world view than many religious people. In a
)sense this entire list is about whether anthroposophists have "thought
)through the ramifications of their philosophical positions"; some of us have
)noticed a few little problems.
Diana, you want your cake and eat it too. Terry points out that many
materialists have not thought out the ramifications of their world view (I also
made this point in a post about racism: Re: The past-race and tribe on 3/19).
You rejoin 'so what, who does?' Then you go on to note that this is what this
list is about!
[Diana]:
) ...this entire list is about whether anthroposophists have "thought
)through the ramifications of their philosophical positions"...
Chand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2093.7 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Reincarnation and materialism
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 10:08:13 -0500
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) ) ) [Terry]
) ) )
) ) ) )Those who "believe" in the cosmic heat death prescribed
) by the Second Law
) ) ) )of Thermodynamics must come to terms with the notion
) that all of human
) ) ) )love and culture is totally meaningless and pointless.
[Bob Tolz]
No they don't.
The fact that the universe may descend into a coldness billions of
years from now does not make me feel that human love and culture is totally
meaningless and pointless.
Either you yourself are expressing despair at the prospect and
therefore reject it or you conclude that one who accepts such a prospect
must necessarily despair. I submit to you that acceptance of that
prediction does not necessarily lead to despair or a conclusion that human
love and culture are totally meaningless and pointless.
[Terry]
) I have
) met many atheists
) and materialists who are jovial people who seem to live full
) lives. However,
) that doesn't mean they have necessarily thought through the
) ramifications
) of their philosophical positions.
[Bob Tolz]
The Russell and Eddington quotations are merely representative of
*one* response. I feel quite confident that I could come up with quotations
showing a much more hopeful response. But why bother? It is not necessary
to go through philosophical expositions to determine what attitude one wants
to hold.
[Terry]
)
) Note Russell still refers to the 'soul'. Much scientific
) thinking has already
) dispensed with that hoary superstition since his time.
) Indeed, what's the
) point of having one if Russell's gloomy scenario represents the truth?
[Bob Tolz]
One's attitude can be chosen independently of an uncertain future.
Besides, what's so gloomy about the universe winking out billions of years
from now? I don't expect to be in the audience for that event.
[quoting from Eddington]
) But if your theory is found
) to be against the Second Law of Thermodynamics I can give you no hope;
) there is nothing for it but to collapse in the deepest humiliation."
[Bob Tolz]
I'll go up against Eddington on this one any day. The proper word
is not "humiliation," it's "humility." I find it much more spiritual to
accept my present place in the universe with humility than to balk at
scientific theory that makes pretty good sense in light of the available
data.
There is sometimes a fine line between humiliation and humility.
Humiliation results when a belief or position collapses despite throwing
temper tantrums in opposition to that collapse. Humility results when one
allows an open mind to accept that what one believes may be modified in
response to experience, evidence and reality.
I submit to you, Terry, that in rejecting a generally accepted
scientific theory such as the Second Law of Thermodynamics for
philosophical/spiritual reasons, both Russell and Eddington displayed that
the thinker did not think enough about how to transcend and reconcile the
apparent paradoxes between theory and thought.
Bob Tolz
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2093.8 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Black Crayons and Stereotypes
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 10:12:59 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
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charset="windows-1252"
[Sarina]
)
) )Will was surprised to discover how many things he had assumed
) )to be black, were actually not when he went to look closely at them.
)
[Diana]
) Maybe this is about cultural conventions again, and they
) learn it from
) picture books. I don't think it's thereby "wrong." I think of
) roads as black too.
[Bob Tolz]
You know what? I think of roads as black, too. But they're not.
That shows how your thinking and mine, Diana, are divorced from reality.
Bob Tolz
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2093.9 ---------------
From: Chand.Desai mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Subject: RE: Reincarnation and materialism
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 09:39:15 -0600
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[Terry]
) )Those who "believe" in the cosmic heat death prescribed by the Second Law
) )of Thermodynamics must come to terms with the notion that all of human
) )love and culture is totally meaningless and pointless.
[Bob Tolz]
) No they don't.
)
) The fact that the universe may descend into a coldness billions of
)years from now does not make me feel that human love and culture is totally
)meaningless and pointless.
)
) Either you yourself are expressing despair at the prospect and
)therefore reject it or you conclude that one who accepts such a prospect
)must necessarily despair. I submit to you that acceptance of that
)prediction does not necessarily lead to despair or a conclusion that human
)love and culture are totally meaningless and pointless.
I agree. Who says something has to be eternal & everlasting to have a point or
meaning. We all die, so even those who don't believe in heat death have to come
to terms with their own mortality and limited impact upon the universe.
Chand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2093.10 ---------------
From: Chand.Desai mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Subject: RE: Black Crayons and Stereotypes
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 09:42:56 -0600
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[Bob Tolz]
) You know what? I think of roads as black, too. But they're not.
)That shows how your thinking and mine, Diana, are divorced from reality.
It doesn't help that they are made out of something called 'blacktop'.
Chand
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2093 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2094 --------------
001 - "debra harvey" (debharve - Re: Reincarnation and materialism
002 - "debra harvey" (debharve - RE: Reincarnation and materialism
003 - "debra harvey" (debharve - Re: Black Crayons and Stereotypes
004 - "debra harvey" (debharve - Re: on Mongolian spots and race
005 - Detlef Hardorp (hardorp g - Head of French Parliamentary Comm. sentenced for calling Anthr
006 - Chand.Desai mcmail.vander - Re: on Mongolian spots and race
007 - momof2gals mindspring.com - schools alike or not?
008 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: schools alike or not?
009 - "Luke Schelly" (lschelly - RE: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching (babies)
010 - "debra harvey" (debharve - Re: schools alike or not?
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2094.1 ---------------
From: "debra harvey" (debharve hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Reincarnation and materialism
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 17:37:48 GMT
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)
)[Diana]:
I suspect atheists have done more, rather than less, thinking
) )about the ramifications of their world view than many religious people.
[Harve]
This "Dianaism" is ridiculous. What is the basis for this conclusion?
Once again, you carve out black and white groups. I am sure that there are
some atheists who have spent a lifetime thinking through and struggling with
their belief systems--although I have not met any. I was an atheist from 12
to 32. I used to hang out at secular humanist functions for a while and got
totally bored with the universal dismissiveness of anything that could not
be scientifically explained. Some people even dismissed AA because it
suggested a Higher Power.
On the other hand, I am sure there are some atheists who are fundamentalists
in their nonbelief status--once having rejected the concept of the Divine,
there is no need for further discussion.
There are also "religious" people who are fundamentalists and have no need
or desire to explore fully.
In my experience, I have found that those people who explore and welcome the
richness and complexity inherent in the mystery of faith have done a lot
more thinking about the "ramifications of their world view" than
fundamentalists--be they atheists or "religious."
Debra Harvey
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2094.2 ---------------
From: "debra harvey" (debharve hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Reincarnation and materialism
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 17:43:22 GMT
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[Chand]
)I agree. Who says something has to be eternal & everlasting to have a
)point or
)meaning. We all die, so even those who don't believe in heat death have to
)come
)to terms with their own mortality and limited impact upon the universe.
[Harve]
Accepting our mortality frees us to live.
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2094.3 ---------------
From: "debra harvey" (debharve hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Black Crayons and Stereotypes
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 18:03:46 GMT
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)
)[Sarina]
))FYI, Diana, I fit just fine at my son's school with MY healthy )attitude.
[Sarina].
)
))It is obviously a flawed argument to say that all Waldorf schools )are
))alike,
)
[Diana]
)Well no doubt that is a flawed argument, Sarina, but how we got here from
)there I don't know. Once again you are arguing with someone other than me.
[Harve]
For what it's worth, I interpreted it the same way Sarina did.
[Diana]
)I'm
)afraid that might often be the case. I do think parents who are very
)straightforward, assertive, and confident have a better chance of picking
)and choosing what they like and don't like in Waldorf, and will not be
)given
)as much grief as a less-confident parent. Other parents are given a lot of
)grief and simply do not care; neurotic types like me take constant
)criticism
)hard, even if it is just the perpetually raised eyebrows.
[Harve]
Isn't this true about most of life? I don't think that you can blame
Waldorf for the parents' own psychological and social issues. I don't know
Dan Dugan's whole story, but I must say I admire the fact that he demanded
an audience before the College of Teachers. Those issues were never going
to be resolved, but at least he showed some guts and chutzpah.
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2094.4 ---------------
From: "debra harvey" (debharve hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: on Mongolian spots and race
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 18:35:40 GMT
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[Terry]
) ))Why, for you, do those of East Asian origin, and only they have the
) )eyes
) ))they do? Why do they have the Mongolian Spot? etc.etc.
) ))First, who is making anything up? The northeast Asian eye fold -
) ))do Africans have them?
) )
) )
)Lisa asks about this:
) Terry, please tell me, WHAT possible spiritual meanings does the shape
)of an East Asian person's eyes have? Or the Mongolian spot -- this is not
)the first time you have mentioned the so-called Mongolian spot (which for
)those who do not know is a small, bruise-colored splotch of pigmented skin
)found on many Asian people's torsos or backsides/buttocks at birth. These
)spots generally fade as the person grows. My daughter from China had a
)large
)Mongolian spot on her right flank, and it has disappeared almost completely
)now that she is 5 years old.)
) Pray tell, Terry, what does having such a spot mean? While you're at
)it,
)what does it mean that people from Scandinavia are generally fair-haired
)and
)light-eyed, and that those whose origins come from below the equator in
)Africa have dark skin (lots of melanin) ???
) No one is disagreeing with you that different races of people have
)different physical characteristics,
[Harve]
I've been trying to figure out the perimeters of these positions. I was
under the impression that Diana and Alan totally opposed asking any
questions about why people of different races have these different physical
characteristics. That is different from asking if they have different
spirituality or life forces.
For the record, I am fascinated with the Mongolian spot. I have never heard
of it. I'm sure that it's a melanin/pigmentation mark, but I'm wondering
whether any asian cultures have had any rituals, etc. pertaining to it.
I don't think there is anything wrong with asking why it appears on asian
people. Nor do I think there is anything wrong with asking why people who
originated from Africa have black skin and those from the North have fair
skin. In fact, if no one had ever asked those questions, we would never
know about melanin.
I agree with Lisa that most "spiritual" differences based on race are
probably cultural. It is probably a moot question now because of how small
our world has become with mass media and the ability to get on a plane and
go across the world in a day.
But, I am wondering--and this is just based on my own individual
ponderings--not on Steiner or anyone else. When the world was much smaller
and people didn't travel more than a few miles away from where they were
born, could there not be innate spiritual differences just based solely on
where a people was placed on earth? Isn't there a difference between a
people who lived in year round light and warmth versus a people who spent
one half of the year in darkness and cold? I don't know what the answer is
or if there even is one, but it is a question that occurred to me last
night.
Harve
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2094.5 ---------------
From: Detlef Hardorp (hardorp gmx.net)
Subject: Head of French Parliamentary Comm. sentenced for calling Anthropos
phy a "sect"
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 20:24:50 +0100
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Dear critics,
the following appeared in "Le Monde" today and can be found on the DROITS DE l'HOMME SANS FRONTIERES website.
I'll leave the translation to Christopher Yavelow.
You haven't heard from me lately, as I've been busy with other things. But there will be more installments of my "race" paper when I find time to work on it again.
Best regards,
Detlef Hardorp
DROITS DE l'HOMME SANS FRONTIERES
Avenue Winston Churchill 11/33 B-1180 Bruxelles
Tél. 32 2 3456145 - Fax: 32 2 3437491
SERVICE D'INFORMATION ET DE PRESSE
Section "Intolérance et discriminations religieuses"
Le 23 Mars 2000
FRANCE
Jacques Guyard condamné pour avoir qualifié le mouvement anthroposophe de secte
par Jean-Michel Dumay
Le Monde (23.03.2000)/DHSF (23.03.2000) - Site web: http://www.dhsf.net (http://www.dhsf.net/) - Email: info hrwf.net (mailto:info hrwf.net) - Les travaux de la commission d'enquête parlementaire ne constitueraient pas une " enquête sérieuse ". Pour avoir qualifié de " secte ", sur France 2, le mouvement anthroposophe, le président de la commission d'enquête parlementaire sur les sectes, Jacques Guyard, a été condamné,mardi 21 mars, à 20 000 francs d'amende et 90 000 francs de dommages-intérêts. Le tribunal de Paris a estimé que M. Guyard n'était " pas en mesure de justifier d'une enquête sérieuse " à l'appui de ses accusations.
Impossibilité de " justifier d'une enquête sérieuse ", documents non " pertinents " ou n'ayant " aucune valeur probante ", " rapport ne présentant aucun caractère contradictoire "... Les méthodes de la commission d'enquête parlementaire sur les sectes ont du plomb dans l'aile, à lire le jugement de la dix-septième chambre correctionnelle du tribunal de Paris qui a condamné, mardi 21 mars, son président Jacques Guyard, député (PS) de l'Essonne, à 20 000 francs d'amende et 90 000 francs de dommages-intérêts pour avoir diffamé trois mouvements anthroposophes se réclamant du courant de pensée de Rudolf Steiner.
Le 17 juin 1999, alors que la commission d'enquête vient de rendre public son deuxième rapport, portant sur les sectes et l'argent, M. Guyard est l'invité du journal de 13 heures, sur France 2. Un reportage sur " un foyer communautaire " anthroposophe est diffusé. L'anthroposophie, non répertoriée parmi les sectes dans le premier rapport de 1995, figure cette fois dans la liste parlementaire. Question : " Sur quels critères cette communauté a-t-elle été classée sous le nom de secte ? " Réponse : " Elle est typique. Tous ces mouvements sont d'abord séduisants et puis il s'avère que leur objectif principal, c'est quand même ou de détourner de l'argent ou d'exercer un pouvoir absolu sur des personnes (...). Là, il y a endoctrinement tout à fait clair. " Et M. Guyard d'évoquer " un aspect médical inquiétant " sur la base de " témoignages précis de malades". La Fédération des écoles Steiner (17 en France, dont 2 sous contrat, 180 en Allemagne) n'a guère apprécié. De même, la Nouvel!
le économie fraternelle, société de crédit anthroposophe, contrôlée par la Caisse centrale du Crédit coopératif et partenaire officiel du ministère de l'emploi. De même, le Mercure fédéral, union des
associations médicales anthroposophiques de France (400 médecins, 1 500 prescripteurs), qui indique que la médecine anthroposophique est prise en compte par les instances européennes au même titre que l'acupuncture, l'homéopathie ou la phytothérapie.
" Je ne savais pas qu'on allait parler ce jour-là uniquement de l'anthroposophie ", s'est défendu Jacques Guyard pour tenter d'expliquer ses propos à la télévision. Le député a cependant maintenu l'appellation " secte ", sur la foi, notamment, d'un " blanc " des renseignements généraux. Puis a maintes fois fait référence au caractère " secret " du travail de la commission parlementaire, l'empêchant, selon lui, de divulguer ses sources. " Ça fait beaucoup de secret alors que tout le monde a intérêt à savoir comment cela se passe ! ", a fini par s'exclamer Martine Ract-Madoux, la présidente du tribunal.
Aucun "caractère contradictoire"
Dans son jugement, celui-ci a conclu : " Force est de constater que M. Guyard a formulé des accusations à la télévision contre un mouvement au sujet duquel il n'était pas en mesure de justifier d'une enquête sérieuse. Il résulte de [ses] déclarations qu'[il] n'a eu connaissance que de témoignages écrits de personnes se disant victimes de l'anthroposophie, mais que ni les rédacteurs de ces correspondances, ni les responsables présumés du mouvement anthroposophique, n'ont été entendus par la commission ; que le caractère contradictoire des investigations diligentées s'est résumé exclusivement à l'envoi d'un questionnaire à une soixantaine de mouvements considérés comme sectaires. "
" Aucun des documents produits n'est pertinent au regard des accusations de manipulations mentales, pressions financières, détournements de fonds et pratiques médicales mettant en péril la vie des malades ", a ajouté le tribunal, qui a refusé au document des RG toute " valeur probante ".
Rejetant le bénéfice, pour M. Guyard, de l'immunité parlementaire, pour lequel avait opté le substitut du procureur François Cordier, les juges ont estimé que le préjudice des parties civiles était " important (...) dès lors que les propos diffamatoires [avaient] été tenus par un député, président de [la] commission, dont l'autorité et la compétence n'ont pu être mises en doute par le public ".
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2094.6 ---------------
From: Chand.Desai mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Subject: Re: on Mongolian spots and race
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 14:09:00 -0600
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[Debra H.]:
)But, I am wondering--and this is just based on my own individual
)ponderings--not on Steiner or anyone else. When the world was much smaller
)and people didn't travel more than a few miles away from where they were
)born, could there not be innate spiritual differences just based solely on
)where a people was placed on earth? Isn't there a difference between a
)people who lived in year round light and warmth versus a people who spent
)one half of the year in darkness and cold? I don't know what the answer is
)or if there even is one, but it is a question that occurred to me last.
I would be surprized if goegraphy and climate did not confer mental and
spiritual differences,
just they confer physical differences. We are, according biological
fundamentalism, a product
of nature and nuture.
Chand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2094.7 ---------------
From: momof2gals mindspring.com
Subject: schools alike or not?
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:12:54 -0500
Of course it would be fallacious to argue that all Waldorf schools
are exactly alike in every respect.
But I do not think it erroneous to argue that there are fundamental
characteristics that make a Waldorf school a Waldorf school, and to
examine whether those commonalities are healthy and sound.
In my opinion, parents enrolling their children in Waldorf programs
need to fully understand one basic premise: Anthroposophy is not only
the foundation of a Waldorf school; it informs and shapes almost every
aspect of the school, from the color of paint on the classroom walls
to the snacks the children eat on what day to what year they study
what culture and history.
That is not stereotyping; it is the truth. Of course, each school
has its own personality and character. But I assert that what these
schools have in common is actually greater than what is different
about them. (A good example is found in Dan Dugan's article ``Nature
Table or Altar?'' on the PLANS website. The nature tables that Dan
photographed for his article could be found in almost any Waldorf
sch
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2094.8 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: schools alike or not?
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:34:59 -0500
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[Lisa]
) In my opinion, parents enrolling their children in Waldorf programs
) need to fully understand one basic premise: Anthroposophy is not only
) the foundation of a Waldorf school; it informs and shapes
) almost every
) aspect of the school, from the color of paint on the classroom walls
) to the snacks the children eat on what day to what year they study
) what culture and history.
) That is not stereotyping; it is the truth.
[Bob Tolz]
No, it's *not* the truth.
You've already over-generalized too much, since I know for a fact
that there's no program in our school for what snacks children eat on what
day.
Clearly, there are similarities that make a Waldorf School a Waldorf
School, but your list is certainly not correct.
Bob Tolz
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2094.9 ---------------
From: "Luke Schelly" (lschelly JackRouse.com)
Subject: RE: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching (babies)
Date: 23 Mar 2000 15:51:40 -0500
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From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
[Chand]
)3/4 of the mothers 130 treated with acupuncture delivered
)head first whereas less than 2/3 of the "control" group (also 130) )treated
)with "external cephalic version" - I don't know what this is )but it
)appears to be the more standard treatment - delivered head )first.
[Diana]
)I believe external cephalic version just means turning the baby around by,
)well, literally turning it around, from the outside. Hard to imagine, but
)some midwives apparently can do it.
We are going to our last midwives class tonight and will ask. From previous classes I take this to having the mother position herself (and her pelvis) in different ways to encourage the baby to rotate (and also face to the back of the mother). I think also taking showers and heat and cold packs are sometimes used.
Also remember to image a freely floating cord next to your baby who is facing to the back head down....repeat....deep breaths... (Please do not tap on the glass).
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2094.10 ---------------
From: "debra harvey" (debharve hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: schools alike or not?
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 20:58:20 GMT
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[Lisa]
) But I do not think it erroneous to argue that there are fundamental
)characteristics that make a Waldorf school a Waldorf school, and to
)examine whether those commonalities are healthy and sound.
[harve]
Obviously they have common features--or they wouldn't be Waldorf. I think
that what we have been discussing is the pathology found in the war stories
presented. The critics seem to assume that these pathologies are either
inherent in Waldorf or that all schools share these pathologies.
______________________________________________________
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--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2094 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2095 --------------
001 - Chand.Desai mcmail.vander - Re: schools alike or not?
002 - Debra Snell (snell netshe - RE: schools alike or not?
003 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: schools alike or not?
004 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Head of French Parliamentary Comm. sentenced for calling A
005 - "Sarina McDonald" (pandor - Re: Black Crayons and Stereotypes
006 - njpmail mindspring.com (Y - Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n2094
007 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: FW: Robert Jan Kelder
008 - "David Cann" (canndw netz - Re: Off topic - a few of my "best"
009 - "David Cann" (canndw netz - Re: schools alike or not?
010 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - RE: Black Crayons and Stereotypes
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2095.1 ---------------
From: Chand.Desai mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Subject: Re: schools alike or not?
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:57:58 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Lisa employs her propaganda skills, presumably acquired during her journalistic
career:
[Lisa]:
) Of course it would be fallacious to argue that all Waldorf schools
)are exactly alike in every respect.
) But I do not think it erroneous to argue that there are fundamental
)characteristics that make a Waldorf school a Waldorf school, and to
)examine whether those commonalities are healthy and sound.
Of course it would be fallacious to argue that all men beat their wives.
But I do not think it erroneous to argue that there are fundamental
characteristics that make a man a men, and to
examine whether those commonalities are healthy and sound.
[Lisa]:
) In my opinion, parents enrolling their children in Waldorf programs
)need to fully understand one basic premise: Anthroposophy is not only
)the foundation of a Waldorf school; it informs and shapes almost every
)aspect of the school, from the color of paint on the classroom walls
)to the snacks the children eat on what day to what year they study
)what culture and history.
That is, Wednesday is bagel day? I think Dupont also has a lot to do with the
color of the paints.
[Lisa]:
) That is not stereotyping; it is the truth.
Lisa's fundamentalism comes to the fore.
[Lisa]:
)Of course, each school
)has its own personality and character.
Lisa wraps the insult in soothing silks.
[Lisa]:
)But I assert that what these
)schools have in common is actually greater than what is different
)about them.
We can all agree with this statement, provided it is placed in a context other
than the rest of Lisa's post.
[Lisa]:
)(A good example is found in Dan Dugan's article ``Nature
)Table or Altar?'' on the PLANS website. The nature tables that Dan
)photographed for his article could be found in almost any Waldorf
)sch
Do I smell a pagan being burned?
Chand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2095.2 ---------------
From: Debra Snell (snell netshel.net)
Subject: RE: schools alike or not?
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 14:43:11 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In-Reply-To: (200003232028.MAA17004 lists1.best.com)
)[Lisa]
)) In my opinion, parents enrolling their children in Waldorf programs
)) need to fully understand one basic premise: Anthroposophy is not only
)) the foundation of a Waldorf school; it informs and shapes
)) almost every
)) aspect of the school, from the color of paint on the classroom walls
)) to the snacks the children eat on what day to what year they study
)) what culture and history.
)) That is not stereotyping; it is the truth.
)
)[Bob Tolz]
) No, it's *not* the truth.
)
) You've already over-generalized too much, since I know for a fact
)that there's no program in our school for what snacks children eat on what
)day.
Bob, I suspect Lisa is talking about her daughter's kindergarten class. Our
Waldorf school's kinder class served certain snacks (read: certain grains)
depending on the day. Anthroposophy informed what grains were served on
which day.
Deby
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2095.3 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: schools alike or not?
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 18:02:54 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
)
) )[Lisa]
) )) In my opinion, parents enrolling their children in
) Waldorf programs
) )) need to fully understand one basic premise: Anthroposophy
) is not only
) )) the foundation of a Waldorf school; it informs and shapes
) )) almost every
) )) aspect of the school, from the color of paint on the
) classroom walls
) )) to the snacks the children eat on what day to what year they study
) )) what culture and history.
) )) That is not stereotyping; it is the truth.
) )
) )[Bob Tolz]
) ) No, it's *not* the truth.
) )
) ) You've already over-generalized too much, since I know
) for a fact
) )that there's no program in our school for what snacks
) children eat on what
) )day.
)
[Debra Snell]
) Bob, I suspect Lisa is talking about her daughter's
) kindergarten class.
[Bob Tolz]
I'm quite sure you're right, Debra.
You make my point.
Bob Tolz
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2095.4 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Head of French Parliamentary Comm. sentenced for calling Anthroposophy a "sect"
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 00:14:58 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
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References: (200003231929.LAA02617 lists1.best.com)
Detlef Hardorp skrev:
) Dear critics,
) the following appeared in "Le Monde" today and can be
) found on the DROITS DE l'HOMME SANS FRONTIERES website.
Maybe others can find it there. I did not when just trying. But it
seems to be possible to find it at the Website of Le Monde at
http://www.lemonde.fr/article/0,2320,47568,00.html
Regards,
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2095.5 ---------------
From: "Sarina McDonald" (pandora aa.net)
Subject: Re: Black Crayons and Stereotypes
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:17:32 -0800
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From: "Diana Winters"
[Diana]
)Sarina, is your child still in the Waldorf school? If not, why did you
leave?
[Sarina]
He is not. We left because my son was stressed out - it was too much
activity for him to be in what amounted to three schools at once. I had
thought it would be important for him to have his "own" school, seperate
from mine, but it turned out to be too much.
That, and the other families weren't "Waldorf enough!" (TV stereotyping and
violent play abounded, just like everywhere else - good bye!)
[Diana]
)I don't get this. I really don't. What kind of a mess do you mean? Did he
)draw on the walls or the floor or the cat? Assuming you don't mean this,
you
)just mean a "mess" on the paper, what is wrong with a mess? How many small
)children *don't* make a mess at least sometimes with art supplies of any
)sort?
[Sarina]
Yes, Diana, they do and it is okay for them to do so. But why do you object
to an adult providing some guidance? Nobody on this list is arguing that
adults should never teach reading or math, so why children should strictly
"un-school" art is beyond me.
I introduced wet-on-wet painting to my preschool class because I think it is
an interesting technique. They loved it! Learning that they could take up
the color with a dry brush or with their little towel was amazing to them.
One girl, a Kindergarten student, spent almost an hour on it. When she was
done, she looked up at me and said said, in a very forceful voice, "I want
to do this AGAIN some time."
It was with wet-on-wet watercolors that we finally got another student (a
soon-to-be kindergartener who had been extremely reticent to try *anything*
academic) to practice making "S" - the first letter of his name. This is the
child who up until then had dug his heels in when we tried to get him to do
any kind of game or activity - even whole language, fun stuff - involving
ABC's or 123's. He spent almost an hour on the watercolor activity, too, and
applied paint and then took up out of the paper completely over and over. He
had so much fun, and he learned to write his name soon after.
Now we've moved on to painting directly on the table and then laying the
paper on top to get an image in relief, and painting upside down under the
table like Michaelangelo.
Are you arguing that it would have been better to have provided these
children with a variety of art materials with no instruction at all?
In fact, a variety of art materials are always available, they are freely
chosen by the kids whenever they want, and they can do whatever they want
with them. But some instruction seems to give kids more tools to use in
their own art and to help them learn new ways of looking at the world.What's
wrong with asking kids to stretch themselves, rather than just scribble all
the time?
Of course, my friend Rachel is looking over my shoulder telling me, "Yeah,
but it's still anal to take the black crayon away." LOL!
I would like to hear Paulina's opinion on this.
[Diana]
)Maybe if I had seen this with my own son I would understand, but
)he seems to have a neutral relationship to black, though admittedly in
)public school first grade they are reinforcing the idea that black is to
)make outlines
And it is okay with you to teach your child that black has the *specific*
purpose of making outlines? I don't get how that is much more acceptable
than Waldorf schools' withholding the black crayons, since it seems to limit
the black crayon to one use.
[Diana]
)Maybe this is about cultural conventions again, and they learn it from
)picture books. I don't think it's thereby "wrong." I think of roads as
black
)too.
Well good for you - but the road my son was drawing is, in fact, grey. All I
am saying is that this color exercise, if that's what it was, taught my son
to be a close observer of his world.
[Diana]
)Your son would have been spending entire days wrapped in silks if he was
)reading, singing Beatles songs, and playing electric guitar at age 5.
[Sarina]
Another reason why Waldorf teachers really ought to be certified teachers,
too, not just trained in an Anthroposophical Seminary program as they are
now. At the very least they should have "normal" degrees in early childhood
education or education. Deby Snell asked me the other day "how do you open a
Waldorf-inspired school and NOT hire Anthroposophists?" Well, that's how -
you hire "real" teachers. You still might get one or two Anthros, but they
would have at least been trained in the pedagogy and theories of Piaget,
Vygotsky, Montessori, Bruner....
[Diana]
)Furthermore, describing the actions or self-professed beliefs of a
)particular self-selected group of people in negative terms is *not* the
same
)as making statements about their spiritual "status" or even their
)"temperament."
[Sarina]
I was not implying that my comments had anything to do with the recent
discussions on race. I have been avoiding that subject because I agree that
Steiner was most probably a racist, and would prefer it if the
Anthroposophists would just admit it and move on. I can see, however, how
you would draw that conclusion.
I can NOT see how you justify your remarks as not labeling all Waldorf
schools the same: BAD. But others have already made that point for me.
[Harve}
"Obviously they have common features--or they wouldn't be Waldorf. I think
that what we have been discussing is the pathology found in the war stories
presented. The critics seem to assume that these pathologies are either
inherent in Waldorf or that all schools share these pathologies."
That about covers it.
---------------------------
Sarina McDonald
pandora aa.net
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2095.6 ---------------
From: njpmail mindspring.com (Yael Resnick)
Subject: Re: Digest waldorf-critics.v001.n2094
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 21:34:25 -0500
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)From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
)
)[Chand]
))3/4 of the mothers 130 treated with acupuncture delivered
))head first whereas less than 2/3 of the "control" group (also 130) )treated
))with "external cephalic version" - I don't know what this is )but it
))appears to be the more standard treatment - delivered head )first.
)
)[Diana]
))I believe external cephalic version just means turning the baby around by,
))well, literally turning it around, from the outside. Hard to imagine, but
))some midwives apparently can do it.
)
)
) We are going to our last midwives class tonight and will ask. From
)previous classes I take this to having the mother position herself (and
)her pelvis) in different ways to encourage the baby to rotate (and also
)face to the back of the mother). I think also taking showers and heat and
)cold packs are sometimes used.
) Also remember to image a freely floating cord next to your baby who is
)facing to the back head down....repeat....deep breaths... (Please do not
)tap on the glass).
)
External version is when a midwife or doctor turns a baby into position
manually from the outside. Some midwives do it by feel alone; usually it's
done with ultrasound for guidance, and with mom hooked up to IV valium.
It's pretty serious business and can be risky, but so is breech birth.
External version isn't always successful, and even if it is, the baby could
always turn back afterwards.
To *avoid* having to go for an external version, mothers-to-be can attempt
various exercises and other techniques to get the baby to turn...
My son was lying transverse (across) instead of head down until almost a
week before he was born. I went for a version because my midwife talked me
into it, even though I knew the baby would eventually get with the program
before his due date. I had tried everything to get the baby to turn, with
no luck. My midwife advised me to have labor induced right after so the
baby wouldn't have a chance to turn back (making an emergency c-section a
possibility). The whole plan sounded lousy to me.
My mother had driven four hours to be with me while my husband stayed home
with our daughter. I was already hooked up to the ultrasound, they were
getting ready to do the IV, we were waiting and waiting and waiting for the
one doctor in the hospital who does these things to come... the doctor (a
black woman, the head of the department, for those interested in that kind
of stereotype-busting fact) was over an hour late since she was doing an
emergency c-section... Minutes before she finally walked into the room, the
ultrasound technician announced, "The baby is head down!" (Typical of my
son's sense of humor... I'm sure he knew what he was up to all along.)
My son was born naturally (and head down) on his due date.
Yael
*****
Yael Resnick, Publisher/Editor, Natural Jewish Parenting
The only magazine dedicated to a Jewish perspective
on childraising and family health!
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2095.7 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: FW: Robert Jan Kelder
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 18:43:04 -0800
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References: (LOBBIFGEEJBILODKGLCHGEGCCCAA.winst wxs.nl)
In-Reply-To: (LOBBIFGEEJBILODKGLCHGEGCCCAA.winst wxs.nl)
3/22/00, Robert Jan Kelder wrote:
)Please share this with your friends and colleagues. Before sharing my reply
)to your reactions with mine, I will have to ask them for permission because
)some were not too happy with my including them in the icing for your
)unexpected birthday present.
)Some of these colleagues have already asked me to drop their names from
)future communications or include them BCC, which I can well understand
)considering the way you seem to deal with them as a sort of big game trophy.
)My mistake.
Sorry, Robert, I intentionally took advantage of your mistake in
sending your list of friends in the clear. I won't send anything more
to them. I saw it as a way of puncturing your pomposity.
)May I ask in return how old you became?
57 years old, 32 years in business for myself, 17 years in this laboratory.
(snip)
)(gumpvoice) Crackpots is as crackpots does (/gumpvoice) Is this the
)pot calling the kettle black?
)
)Gumpvoice?
Sorry, a reference to the character in the fine social satire film
"Forrest Gump."
)Rationalism or materialism, or any of the 10 other possible world
)views are not necessarily faulty, they are only onesided if the others are
)not given equal prominence.
Spare me, please. (Steiner said there are 12 possible world-views...)
Call me one-sided if you want, I aim to take a view of the world as
close to reality as I can get, and I don't intend to "balance" by
giving the other 99 gazillion world views "equal prominence." Is
nonsense of equal value to hard-won knowledge?
)This is uniquely the case with the work of RS
)(and other great spritual works of mankind such as parts of the Bible and
)the Parzival by Wolfram von Eschenbach).
"Great spiritual works of mankind?" Look, Robert, waldorf-critics is
a place for discussion of Waldorf and Anthroposophy -from outside the
cult of Rudolf Steiner-. Since you obviously don't qualify for that
viewpoint, I suppose you're on a Michaelic mission to slay us with
your superior rhetoric. Waldorf-critics is an open forum, so you're
welcome to try, but don't expect to get a lot of respect.
)During my anthroposophical studies
)in LA in the early seventies with a philosopher and an astrologer it was
)discovered that the paragraphs of RS's books and lectures succeed each other
)according to the evolving course of the 12 worldviews ranging from idealism
)through materialism and realism to spiritualism. These 12 worldviews can be
)developed from the concept of knowledge as the union of percept and concept
)as developed in RS's basic epistemological works. A work on this subject is
)forthcoming.
In my lectures I point out how Anthroposophists reify Steiner's
concepts, and then talk to you as though they were agreed-upon facts,
viz "the 12 senses," "the four temperaments," "the festivals," and
now "the 12 worldviews."
) )Well, I am dismayed at the site's predominantly biased, uncritical and
) )incomplete portrayal of Rudolf Steiner and his anthroposophy as a genuine
) )spiritual science based on a critical, i.e. not naive epistemology.
)
)Science it ain't. If one can be sophisticated and naive at the same
)time, Anthroposophy is both.
[Robert, please learn to use the email conventions of levels of
quoting to clarify who's talking in replies to replies. It has been
necessary to add notes to the dialogue so it will make sense.]
Kelder:
)If we restrict ourselves to the level of ranting and raving in terms of
)black and white, we will only create more "demons". A. is a critical
)discipline, as opposed to naive because it is based on a science of
)knowledge. In this sense it is sophisticated and not naive, another question
)altogether is what others make of it. Here we must discriminate.
"Science of knowledge" is pretentious puffery.
Kelder:
) )Your
) )list of articles from Holland e.g. include none of the many articles and
) )booklets by anthroposophists reputing the politically correct attacks and
) )insinuations made here by incompetent journalists and would-be philosophers
) )against the integrity of R. Steiner,
Dugan:
)Of course not. You have your own presses cranking your your
)propaganda. I take it you're not too happy with your European critics.
Kelder
)You may have gathered from my epistle, that the A. movement is not a unified
)field, you cannot address it or me as you in the plural. There is no
)question of presses or journals cranking "my propaganda", on the contrary my
)letters, motions and articles have very often been refused for publication.
I'm fully aware that Anthroposophy is full of contentious cranks who
refuse to speak to each other. But they all follow Steiner, that's my
definition of an Anthropop.
)Again this is, with all respect, your bias, a statement devoid of real
)substance because you have not really observed the field in question or act
)on isolated hearsay. The thing is not to be a so-called radical in politics,
)for politics is spiritual warfare based on misleading your opponent (with
)which the AS has nothing to do, except to try as individuals to enter this
)field with the aim of transformimg politics into a rights issue).
I view politics as a high calling devoted to the service of humanity,
but I realize that's a minority view.
)Rather be
)a radical in the field of true cognition in the sense of laying bare the
)foundations and component parts of valid judgments and practice this as the
)highest art, conceptual art. This is the road to the Virtues, a title of one
)of H. Witzenmann's books.
I agree that epistemology (how is reliable knowledge obtained) is
very important.
) )including a booklet called "Geen sprake
) )van..." that I wrote with three other anthro authors on the "Van Barda
) )interim report on A. and the question of racism", which itself includes
) )politically correct segments, as some anthro's themselves are beginning to
) )soften up and become clouded and fearful in the face of massive attacks
)from
) )a.o. so-called anti-racist organisations heavily sponsored by the Dutch
) )governments, who, to put it bluntly, in order to justify their existence
)are
) )constantly on the lookout for their prey...
Oh, those nasty Dutch, daring to oppose racism in Waldorf schools. (sarcasm)
)I have talked to some of these
) )experts denouncing Steiner, who have never even read a word by him.
) )Of course A. has been misused by some so-called anthro's, but that is no
) )reason to throw away the baby with the bathwater as you, respectively your
) )site does so unabashedly.
)
)The baby has failed to thrive, due to lack of an essential nutrient,
)critical thinking.
Kelder:
)Here you have a point, but I ask you to practice, if you can, what you
)preach.
Fair enough.
) )Is this what you call free speech and Pacific
) )Justice; it's more like lynch justice of the days of the Wild West. The
) )translators of the Dutch articles, including that smear pamphlet by T.
) )Jeurissen without any scientific basis
)
)This isn't science, it's politics. A Waldorf parent, deeply disturbed
)by racism in her child's lesson books, was courageous enough to stand
)up to the system. (See the article on the PLANS web site).
)
)I know the article from before. She was disturbed by a.o. the statement that
)blacks have big lips and a feeling for rhythm, which may be a stereotype,
)but not untrue.
Ah, yes, the Anthroposophical position: we're not racists, we're just
speaking the truth and we're sorry if it's not politically correct.
Correlary to "Some of Steiner is difficult."
)Besides, such descriptions can be read in many dictionaries
)and reference books standing on the shelves. Nowhere is there any concept
)developed about what she understands under racism, only examples. The
)scientific motivation for her tirade she got from other pamphlets which
)cannot seriously be considered as objective research, as far as
)anthroposophy as such is concerned. Again, she may have pointed her finger
)on some isolated shortcomings in the "system", but an investigation launched
)by the Dutch government found no evidence for the accusations of racism and
)discrimination.
Critics find ample foundation for the Dutch schools' racism in
Steiner's writings, and those of Anthroposophists following him.
) )(it already denounces R. Steiner as a
) )racist on the first page) ought to be ashamed of their bias in presenting
) )only their clouded side of the story. That new article e.g. on A. and
) )ecofacism has so many errors, that it would be no use to enter into a
) )discussion with the author except to say that he should spend a couple of
) )more years doing serious research before venturing out into the open with
) )his marxist tainted heap of bias and materialistic half truths.
)
)One wouldn't expect the far right Anthropops to enjoy sniping from
)the left. Is that "materialistic" the code word that used to mean
)Jewish?
Kelder:
)I am not exclusively far right, nor far left or centrist; all of these,
)excluding the downright criminal aspects, have some valuable but limited
)viewpoints. Thinking, or better labelling in these black and white,
)dualistic terms will not get us very far. I use no code words for "Jewish"
)and remind you that the question of what now Jewish is, is even in Israel a
)hotly debated question. There the geatest critics of the nationalistic
)Zionists come from Judaism itself.
I was just pointing out that in Steiner's time "materialist" was
commonly a code word for Jewish in circles too sophisticated for
outright antisemitism, and his frequent use of the term must have
often been taken in that sense by Steiner's audiences. I am sure
Steiner knew this. Of course, the whole trick of using code words is
deniability.
) )A. is an impartial discipline, read e.g. the book,if you can, "Die
) )Voraussetzungslosigkeit der Anthroposophie - Eine Einführung in die
) )Geisteswissenschaft Rudolf Steiners" by the foremost anthro philosopher of
) )the 20th century, Herbert Witzenmann, my former teacher who died in 1988
)and
) )who unfortunately is still practically unknown in the West, partly because
) )he has received too little support from the antro's themselves, which is
)now
) )beginning to boomerang in the sense that A. has done too little to update
) )and scientifically justify itself as a spiritual humanism of the first
) )order.
)
)Sounds like a faction. I'm starting to see why other Anthropops might
)see you as a pain in the ass.
)
) )There are many internal factors, which I cannot go into now, playing in the
) )heart of the anthro movement that are indeed rotten and completely against
) )what Rudolf Steiner advocated.
)
)Ah, yes, factions arguing about who's truer to the guru's vision.
Kelder:
)I object to the word guru, which does not fit the way RS understood himself
)and the way he acted, namely as a brother, friend and adviser to others. He
)wanted not to be admired but to be understood and "granted" his students and
)followers far more independence than a traditional guru did and does. Gurus
)are from another age when they were justified.
Object all you want, it sticks. Read, for instance, Anthony Storr's
"Feet of Clay," where Steiner is profiled in comparison with many
other gurus.
(snip rant)
Dugan:
)What's "post-democratic"? Could you summarize for us?
Kelder:
)Democracy is a quantity principle, the majority wins, in many cases creating
)minorities, such as in Central Europe, which then are (sometimes bloodily)
)suppressed by the majority. In reality of course we have no direct democracy
)but a representative one, kept in the saddle by an unfree press and various
)manipulations of the public opinion.
I'm not sure whose government you're talking about. U.S. Democracy is
crafted in a complex but effective balance of direct and
representative democracy with constitutional protection of minorities
from tyranny by the majority. Here only the far left complains of an
"unfree press."
(snip discussion referring to your 2nd-generation Anthroposophical guru.)
)A. is not afraid of true criticism, i.e. if it is immanent, thus
)based on its own tenets, as such it claims to be a discipline that must be
)judged on its own terms and not from concepts and observations borrowed from
)elsewhere.
This is silly, for something that calls itself "science" to then say
it can't be judged. You can have it to yourselves again if you get
Waldorf out of U.S. public schools and stop deceiving parents.
)This is not pretentious, but the case for every scientific branch
)in which you have to immerse yourself before coming to a point where you can
)make an objective appraisal. This requires schooling and training. The claim
)that A. is impartial, i.e. sets no premises, makes no preconcieved notions
)is of course a radical one, but a prerogative for true scientific research.
)Many of the books by RS are results of his research and presuppose such
)schooling,
Meditating on your own fantasies isn't "research."
)in fact RS wanted a very strongly worded statement printed in all
)his esoteric lectures and courses for professionals such as doctors,
)farmers, ministers even actors and dancers, that a judgement made on this
)material would be considered incompetent without such a pre-training given
)by the School for Spiritual Science or other similar institution and that no
)discussion would be held with such laypersons. This form of moral protection
)was formulated in the central paragraph of the 15 statutes of the refounded
)AS, but was not adhered to in the course of time. This chapter of the
)history of the AS is known as the "book question" in the sixties, in which
)Herbert Witzenmann played a central role in pointing out the importance of
)this spiritual protection for not only the work of RS but also the potential
)readers. This was no bookish issue but a question of how to bring such, on
)first sight incomprehensible, esoteric contents to a general public mentally
)unprepared for understanding and appraising this material. But Witzenmann
)was overuled (by a democratic vote in the Council),and so it came that
)so-called racist passages, which you and others have listed as such,
)continued to be printed in books and spread about the four corners of the
)world without this imprint and without footnotes putting the quothes in a
)proper context: a major fault of the anthro publishers for which "we" are
)now presented the bill. The work of the Van Barda commission and others must
)thus be seen as trying to make up what the publishers previously failed to
)do, albeit after most of the damage has been done. This is a tragic chapter
)and a setback for the evolution of human consciouness.
I view the influence of Rudolf Steiner as a "setback for the
evolution of human consciousness."
) )In closing, I can't say I wish you much luck with your present PLANS,
) )perhaps I could wish you in general to come to your senses and to stop
) )attacking the honor and good name of one of the greatest, if not the
) )greatest friend of humanity and the earth of the previous century.
)
)Pretentious pronouncements don't make greatness, except to the naive.
Kelder:
)My statement was more a wish, perhaps naive. The pronouncement aspect of it
)is the result of my own long term study.
)
) )In the
) )end you are only attacking your own higher self, the image of the man and
)of
) )a just free society that you and I want to become and create.
Dugan:
)I don't know that my "free society" and yours are at all the same. Do
)you use Steiner's definition of "freedom" meaning "spiritual
)activity"?
Kelder:
)I do not work so much with definitions as with characterizations. RS
)suggested to translate the German word "Freiheit" with spiritual activity,
)because freedom implies too much freedom from (passive) instead of freedom
)to (active). A free society is free to the extent that it harbours and
)encourages free individuals who have raised their level of thinking to a
)point where it is no longer bound to any bodily (ie. racial) or social
)restrictions or dogmas.
Agreed, so you oppose Waldorf education, then?
)This no school can do for them, schools can raise
)them to the point where they are rational beings; the step to freedom must
)be done individually out of one's own initiative.
I think teachers should be examples of free, rational, informed and
compassionate citizens. The cult-like behavior of most Waldorf
teachers seems to lack many of these qualities.
)RS wrote his "Philsophy of
)Freedom (as Spiritual Activity)" as a report on how he achieved his and
)urged everyone to write his or her own.
)He considered this his most important work that would outlast all his
)others. It is an anti-racist work per excellence for it delineates how the
)individual can wrestle against his racial background and culture to emerge
)as a free human being.
Why would a person have to "wrestle against his racial background"
exclusive of culture? Sounds like the group-soul concept.
)Until we have done this we are all slaves. To accuse
)this man of racism or anything resembling this, is the worst objection you
)could raise, for it hits the founder of anthroposophy as an image of the
)universal human being in the heart.
Let him die, then. He is not "an image of the universal human being"
but an image of a poseur.
)Neither his work nor his life provide
)any real evidence for it, on the contrary. Please reconsider and review your
)plans.
)I wish you much wisdom and courage in the process,
Thank you.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2095.8 ---------------
From: "David Cann" (canndw netzero.net)
Subject: Re: Off topic - a few of my "best"
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 22:31:19 -0500
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In all my years associated with Waldorf schooling, the only place I've seen
anyone concerned about "Waldorf purity" is on the critics' list. Perhaps
that's the only place the concept of "Waldorf purity" exists...
David
)
)[David Cann wrote:]
)
))(all my kids just HAVE to read my email over my
))shoulder
Diana looking out for my interests:
)Yikes, another Waldorf purity alert. Aren't your children preadolescent?
)Reading your email?!
)
This IS a joke, right?
__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2095.9 ---------------
From: "David Cann" (canndw netzero.net)
Subject: Re: schools alike or not?
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 22:46:36 -0500
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It would be easier to take this discussion seriously if we discussed topics
at all related to the actual education children receive at their Waldorf
school. All curricula decide in some way when to teach different subjects.
I expect that at most Waldorf schools, the education is highly valued by the
vast majority of parents. Why go to the trouble for a substandard
education?
Lisa E:
) Of course it would be fallacious to argue that all Waldorf schools
)are exactly alike in every respect.
) But I do not think it erroneous to argue that there are fundamental
)characteristics that make a Waldorf school a Waldorf school, and to
)examine whether those commonalities are healthy and sound.
No argument here. That is what attracted most of us in the first place.
) In my opinion, parents enrolling their children in Waldorf programs
)need to fully understand one basic premise: Anthroposophy is not only
)the foundation of a Waldorf school; it informs and shapes almost every
)aspect of the school, from the color of paint on the classroom walls
)to the snacks the children eat on what day to what year they study
)what culture and history.
As I am sure I have said in past posts, each parent wants to know a certain
amount, but many just don't care all that much. Others do.
If the education is sound, and the teachers are good, and the school runs
okay, parents tend to be happy. Not always, but in general. Not a bad
state of affairs, in my opinion. From what I have seen, no one is shy about
telling a school (at least at our school) when it is NOT meeting one's
children's needs academically.
David
__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2095.10 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Black Crayons and Stereotypes
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 04:09:11 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
[Sarina]
)Will was surprised to discover how many things he had assumed
)to be black, were actually not when he went to look closely at them.
[Diana]
)Maybe this is about cultural conventions again, and they learn it )from
)picture books. I don't think it's thereby "wrong." I think of )roads as
)black too.
[Bob Tolz]
)You know what? I think of roads as black, too. But they're not.
)That shows how your thinking and mine, Diana, are divorced from )
)reality.
I don't think using cultural conventions, such as drawing roads black, is
"divorced from reality." It's just symbolism; a common language. It makes
communication possible. It's no more divorced from reality than language
itself -- the letters have only an abitrary relationship to the sounds, and
the words have only an arbitrary relationship to what we all understand them
to represent. Use of these conventions isn't "wrong." We couldn't
communicate without them.
Relating this to Waldorf, children should not be prevented from learning or
using the symbolism of their culture just because the teacher has (what he
or she believes is) a "higher" understanding they would prefer the children
learn. Luke takes this "teach them to go against the dominant culture"
position too when he insists that because lines aren't really there in
"nature" children should't be allowed to represent things with lines, even
if their use is common currency.
Diana
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2095 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2096 --------------
001 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: Black Crayons and Stereotypes
002 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: Off topic - a few of my "best"
003 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - RE: schools alike or not?
004 - njpmail mindspring.com (Y - apology for netiquette faux-pas
005 - "joseph robinson" (joseph - black crayons and lines; Heyatawin
006 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Anthroposophical doctors (was: Peter Farrell on Goethe and
007 - Chand.Desai mcmail.vander - Re: FW: Robert Jan Kelder
008 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Black Crayons and Stereotypes
009 - Chand.Desai mcmail.vander - RE: Black Crayons and Stereotypes
010 - "Alan S. Fine MD" (asf pe - Re: FW: Robert Jan Kelder
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2096.1 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Black Crayons and Stereotypes
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 04:12:06 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Thanks, Sarina, a few other points.
)That, and the other families weren't "Waldorf enough!" (TV )stereotyping
)and violent play abounded, just like everywhere else - )good bye!)
It is very funny to me that you left a Waldorf school (partly) because it
wasn't Waldorf enough, considering that your ideas and techniques are
certainly not "Waldorf" in many respects themselves. I'm not trying to be
snotty. It's just an indication of how complicated the issue is. Some
Waldorf schools might prefer *you* leave for not being Waldorf enough, but
this one you rejected for the same reason!
)But why do you object to an adult providing some guidance?
Your point is well taken. It's actually just the specific black-crayon thing
I have a problem with, well that and the overcontrolling I saw in Waldorf
classrooms. From what you describe of your classes I don't think you do this
sort of thing, so perhaps it's not fair to give you such a hard time about
one thing you happen to have your opinion about.
)I introduced wet-on-wet painting to my preschool class because I )think it
)is an interesting technique. They loved it
(snip how wonderful it was)
I think the wet on wet watercolor painting is wonderful too. I really loved
painting in the kindergartens, it was my favorite time of the week. The way
you have described doing it, however, is very, very far removed from the way
the Waldorf teachers I worked with handled it. I was uncomfortable with
turning the painting activity into some kind of religious ceremony,
insisting on silence and false "reverence" and browbeating the kids to do it
one particular way, limiting the colors, forbidding drawing, forbidding
creative expression, making everyone miserable with rigid expectations,
turning something that started out joyful into something a lot of kids
dreaded.
And it would *never* be used as a way to interest someone in making letters
or learning to read or write -- that would defeat the whole purpose, from a
pure Waldorf point of view.
)Are you arguing that it would have been better to have provided these
)children with a variety of art materials with no instruction at all?
No, I agree with you, Sarina. I'm afraid I respond to what you say picturing
what I saw going on in Waldorf classrooms, and if I were to see it
implemented in a truly creative, flexible manner, it would probably look
very different to me, and I would be more open to hearing why one might
provide certain types of guidance. The "guidance" I did see was damaging
rather than constructive for the kids.
)And it is okay with you to teach your child that black has the )*specific*
)purpose of making outlines? I don't get how that is much )more acceptable
)than Waldorf schools' withholding the black crayons, )since it seems to
)limit the black crayon to one use.
I agree here too. I guess I would rather they not insist on black for
outlines, or emphasize outlines at all, though again I think it's more a
matter of convention and I can't see it's actually harmful. But anyway I'm
here to talk about Waldorf, not what's wrong with the public schools.
[Diana]
)Maybe this is about cultural conventions again, and they learn it )from
)picture books. I don't think it's thereby "wrong." I think of )roads as
)black too.
)Well good for you - but the road my son was drawing is, in fact, )grey. All
)I am saying is that this color exercise, if that's what it )was, taught my
)son to be a close observer of his world.
I think that's a good thing too. My problem is only with making some kind of
fetish out of the black crayon, but geez we're all pretty tired of this
subject by now!
[Diana]
)Your son would have been spending entire days wrapped in silks if he )was
)reading, singing Beatles songs, and playing electric guitar at )age 5.
[Sarina]
)Another reason why Waldorf teachers really ought to be certified )teachers,
)too, not just trained in an Anthroposophical Seminary )program as they are
)now. At the very least they should have "normal" )degrees in early
)childhood education or education. Deby Snell asked )me the other day "how
)do you open a Waldorf-inspired school and NOT )hire Anthroposophists?"
)Well, that's how - you hire "real" teachers. )You still might get one or
)two Anthros, but they would have at least )been trained in the pedagogy and
)theories of Piaget, Vygotsky, )Montessori, Bruner....
I agree with everything you've said here too, or at least I wish it could be
so, though I doubt this is easy to do. Have you, in fact, hired any
anthroposophists in your Waldorf-inspired school? Do they just not apply
because of your other requirements? If so, maybe you're onto something.
Sarina, I admire what you're trying to do there, and I'd love to visit your
school someday if the invitation remains standing!
Diana
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2096.2 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Off topic - a few of my "best"
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 04:26:23 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
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[David]
)In all my years associated with Waldorf schooling, the only place )I've
)seen anyone concerned about "Waldorf purity" is on the critics' )list.
)Perhaps that's the only place the concept of "Waldorf purity" )exists...
Well, I am always accused of overgeneralizing, so let me say *at our
(former) school* a fanatical concern exists for Waldorf purity, among some
key faculty.
[David said previously]
)all my kids just HAVE to read my email over my
)shoulder
[Diana looking out for David's interests:]
) )Yikes, another Waldorf purity alert. Aren't your children preadolescent?
)Reading your email?!
[David]
)This IS a joke, right?
David, I assure you this is not a joke. Assuming your children *are*
preadolescent which I can't remember if you've said, the Waldorf teachers I
know would consider it inappropriate, possibly very damaging, for your
children to read your email. They are not supposed to use computers,
remember?! At our school, they really meant that!
Could you at least print it out for them first? (*That's* a joke.)
Back to not joking: The content of this list would be especially
inappropriate for pre-teens, who are supposed to look to adults as
authorities who know what is "good" and "right." Therefore you should not
let your children become aware that some people think the education they are
receiving is flawed or problematic. They might also be tempted to make
"judgments" about the arguments presented here, and that is also damaging
because they're too young to make judgments.
And in particular, Alan's jokes about psychiatric patients would be
considered completely inappropriate for children! Precocious awareness of
adult issues and problems! Cynicism! Encouraging a false and premature
sophistication! I am definitely not joking! (Maybe the Headless Horseman
joke is okay.)
Diana
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2096.3 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: schools alike or not?
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 04:41:39 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
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[Lisa]
)In my opinion, parents enrolling their children in Waldorf programs
)need to fully understand one basic premise: Anthroposophy is not )only the
)foundation of a Waldorf school; it informs and shapes
)almost every aspect of the school, from the color of paint on the classroom
)walls to the snacks the children eat on what day to what year they study
)what culture and history.
) That is not stereotyping; it is the truth.
[Bob Tolz]
) No, it's *not* the truth.
)
) You've already over-generalized too much, since I know for a )fact that
)there's no program in our school for what snacks children )eat on what day.
)but your list is certainly not correct.
Bob, you are splitting hairs. Lisa was giving examples. The details are
going to vary everywhere (though there are striking similarities among most
schools). The mission of the schools is the same. The statement
"Anthroposophy informs almost every aspect of the school" is correct. I feel
virtually certain it is correct of your school and 98% of the Waldorf
schools worldwide.
At our former school, for example, there were a lot of things that weren't
"Waldorf enough" to suit many teachers, but it wasn't for lack of trying. It
was usually for lack of money, or time, or enough personnel to make things
work the way they really "should" work according to Steiner. For instance,
they would dearly love to hire a eurythmist, but could only afford someone
on an occasional basis, at least last I heard. Wouldn't you think it
disingenous if they then turned around and said, "See, all Waldorf schools
are not the same. You say they all have eurythmy, but we don't." I think
that is analogous to your argument above.
Or, if you can stand another analogy, at our school an effort was made to
get the right grains on the right day in the kindergarten, but the teachers
didn't agree on what the correct schedule was! Should they then claim, "What
are you talking about, we don't even serve the grains on the same days in
the three kindergartens!" Not for lack of trying!
The particular hair you are splitting above is that the
grains-according-to-schedule thing is about kindergarten. (I don't think the
older children even have snacks.) It is consistent across Waldorf
*kindergartens,* I think, at least as an aspiration. It is disingenous of
you to suggest that this is not common to Waldorf schools just because she
didn't specify k'garten versus later grades vis a vis the grain-schedule.
Diana
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2096.4 ---------------
From: njpmail mindspring.com (Yael Resnick)
Subject: apology for netiquette faux-pas
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 01:53:54 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Just wanted to apologize for forgetting to change the header to reflect the
actual subject being discussed in my last few posts...
I plead sleep deprivation. Next NJP goes to print Monday and there's just
always, always miles to go before I sleep.
Back to work now,
Yael
*****
Yael Resnick, Publisher/Editor, Natural Jewish Parenting
The only magazine dedicated to a Jewish perspective
on childraising and family health!
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2096.5 ---------------
From: "joseph robinson" (joseph_robins hotmail.com)
Subject: black crayons and lines; Heyatawin
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 00:06:07 PST
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
There is nothing wrong with black crayons or lines . . .it's all
in your minds!!
Heyatawin
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2096.6 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Anthroposophical doctors (was: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science
teaching)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 11:49:04 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
References: (200003191807.KAA07226 lists1.best.com) (200003211654.IAA12808 lists1.best.com)
Dan wrote:
answering David,
) )I am quite sure that association with anthroposophical (sp?) doctors is
) )voluntary on the part of the school. [snip]
) )Dan, do you have any reference for saying each school is "supposed to have
) )one?"
Dan:
) Tradition. "The School Doctor".
)
) "The decision for any handedness change may only be made by the
) school doctor in consultation with parents and carried out under his
) supervision." [McAllen, 1992, pp. 23-24]
)
) "When it comes to using medications, however, it is important to get
) the school's physician or the family doctor involved. Parents tend to
) react negatively, and rightly so, when the teacher starts
) recommending medications. But if you advise them to consult the
) school's physician about the possibility of medical treatment, since
) in your experience this often has a positive effect on a child's
) behavior in school, they will often take your advice." [Glöckler,
) 1993, p. 21]
As far as I can see, these quotes only refer in general to the
importance of school- or family doctors when dealing with medical
problems, pointing out that specific medical prescriptions only are to
be given by doctors, not to the _necessity_ of any of them being
specifically 'anthroposophical' doctors, which seems to have been the
point discussed in the letter by David that you answer to. But maybe
that is stated in other (non quoted) parts of the text you quote from?
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2096.7 ---------------
From: Chand.Desai mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Subject: Re: FW: Robert Jan Kelder
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 08:27:59 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Dan seems to have a bit more time on his hand these days as he has recently
written two long (and rather boring) posts.
A more interesting topic would be the one suggested by Bob Tolz: the
question of Goethe's relevance as expressed by prominent scientists and
thinkers.
Chand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2096.8 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Black Crayons and Stereotypes
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:59:29 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="windows-1252"
) [Sarina]
) )Will was surprised to discover how many things he had assumed
) )to be black, were actually not when he went to look closely at them.
)
) [Diana]
) )Maybe this is about cultural conventions again, and they
) learn it )from
) )picture books. I don't think it's thereby "wrong." I think
) of )roads as
) )black too.
)
) [Bob Tolz]
) )You know what? I think of roads as black, too. But they're not.
) )That shows how your thinking and mine, Diana, are divorced from )
) )reality.
)
[Diana]
) I don't think using cultural conventions, such as drawing
) roads black, is
) "divorced from reality." It's just symbolism; a common
) language. It makes
) communication possible. It's no more divorced from reality
) than language
) itself -- the letters have only an abitrary relationship to
) the sounds, and
) the words have only an arbitrary relationship to what we all
) understand them
) to represent. Use of these conventions isn't "wrong." We couldn't
) communicate without them.
[Bob Tolz]
Bad analogy, Diana. Really bad. In fact, it highlights exactly why
I disagree with your position.
Surely, letters are symbols and conventions. There's no way that
letters could be made any closer to what they represent, because they are a
visual representation of an auditory phenomenon. On that I agree with you.
In contrast, art is a visual representation of a *visual*
phenomenon. Although, it's impossible to make an exact representation of
what one sees, one can develop technique to make it closer and closer to
reality, rather than reductionist and divorced from reality.
If you want your children to use art as symbolism, that's fine with
me. I'd prefer them to receive sufficient guidance to develop some
technique and artistry.
Bob Tolz
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2096.9 ---------------
From: Chand.Desai mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Subject: RE: Black Crayons and Stereotypes
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:15:12 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
[Diana]
)) I don't think using cultural conventions, such as drawing
)) roads black, is
)) "divorced from reality." It's just symbolism; a common
)) language. It makes
)) communication possible. It's no more divorced from reality
)) than language
)) itself -- the letters have only an abitrary relationship to
)) the sounds, and
)) the words have only an arbitrary relationship to what we all
)) understand them
)) to represent. Use of these conventions isn't "wrong." We couldn't
)) communicate without them.
[Bob Tolz]
)
) Bad analogy, Diana. Really bad. In fact, it highlights exactly why
)I disagree with your position.
)
) Surely, letters are symbols and conventions. There's no way that
)letters could be made any closer to what they represent, because they are a
)visual representation of an auditory phenomenon. On that I agree with you.
)
) In contrast, art is a visual representation of a *visual*
)phenomenon. Although, it's impossible to make an exact representation of
)what one sees, one can develop technique to make it closer and closer to
)reality, rather than reductionist and divorced from reality.
)
) If you want your children to use art as symbolism, that's fine with
)me. I'd prefer them to receive sufficient guidance to develop some
)technique and artistry.
I think Diana is talking about cartoons.
Chand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2096.10 ---------------
From: "Alan S. Fine MD" (asf peakpeak.com)
Subject: Re: FW: Robert Jan Kelder
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:06:31 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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References: (200003241430.GAA29945 lists1.best.com)
I have ordered all of Peter's articles, so far only one has come in. I
still plan to review them when I have a chance.
Alan Fine
----- Original Message -----
From: (Chand.Desai mcmail.vanderbilt.edu)
To: (waldorf-critics lists.best.com)
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2000 7:27 AM
Subject: Re: FW: Robert Jan Kelder
)
)
) Dan seems to have a bit more time on his hand these days as he has
recently
) written two long (and rather boring) posts.
) A more interesting topic would be the one suggested by Bob Tolz: the
) question of Goethe's relevance as expressed by prominent scientists and
) thinkers.
)
) Chand
)
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2096 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2097 --------------
001 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: FW: Robert Jan Kelder
002 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: FW: Robert Jan Kelder
003 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Response to Paulina Leonard.
004 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching
005 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: on Mongolian spots and race
006 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: Black Crayons and Stereotypes
007 - "debra harvey" (debharve - Re: on Mongolian spots and race
008 - "debra harvey" (debharve - Re: on Mongolian spots and race
009 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: on Mongolian spots and race
010 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - Re: on Mongolian spots and race - revised
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2097.1 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: FW: Robert Jan Kelder
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 08:47:37 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
References: (LOBBIFGEEJBILODKGLCHGEGCCCAA.winst wxs.nl)
In-Reply-To: (200003240244.SAA24818 lists1.best.com)
On 23 Mar 2000, at 18:43, Dan Dugan wrote:
) 3/22/00, Robert Jan Kelder wrote:
)
) Kelder:
) )Democracy is a quantity principle, the majority wins, in many cases creating
) )minorities, such as in Central Europe, which then are (sometimes bloodily)
) )suppressed by the majority. In reality of course we have no direct democracy
) )but a representative one, kept in the saddle by an unfree press and various
) )manipulations of the public opinion.
)
) I'm not sure whose government you're talking about. U.S. Democracy is
) crafted in a complex but effective balance of direct and
) representative democracy with constitutional protection of minorities
) from tyranny by the majority.
Make no mistake about it: there is nothing democratic about the bill of
rights. If the majority had its way, we would not have free speech,
freedom of the press, equal protection of the law, protection against
unreasonable searches and seizures, or any of a number of other
restrictions on the power of the government to oppress its citizens, at
least as applied to unpopular minority groups.
These rights are anti-democratic, in a way, in that their purpose is to
restrict the majority from using its political power to oppress others.
Because of this, I don't see the U.S. as a true democracy. And I must
admire the foresight of the folks who put those rights in the
Constitution.
) Here only the far left complains of an "unfree press."
I could not read that French article. I got the impression that someone
was criminally prosecuted for calling Anthroposophy a "sect." Is that
true? If so, it's shocking, and it makes me grateful to live in a land
where people may not lawfully be prosecuted for expressing an opinion
about another group, even if it is an unpopular, erroneous, and even
malicious opinion.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carbonata descendum pantorum."
(A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.)
http://members.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2097.2 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: FW: Robert Jan Kelder
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 12:06:13 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
)
) I have ordered all of Peter's articles, so far only one has
) come in. I
) still plan to review them when I have a chance.
)
) Alan Fine
[Bob Tolz]
Have you also ordered the additional references I sent you by
private email?
Bob Tolz
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2097.3 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Response to Paulina Leonard.
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 00:12:16 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
References: (200003200259.SAA15734 lists1.best.com)
(200003201823.KAA11459 lists1.best.com)
(200003211741.JAA06931 lists1.best.com)
(200003212030.MAA02990 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200003212030.MAA02990 lists1.best.com)
3/21/00, paulina leonard wrote:
)Get real here, Dan.
)
)You have used the term white magic ritual, so, please, define
)the term. What do you mean by such an outlandish statement?
)Additionally, please direct me to one single remedial exercise
)in "The Extra Lesson" that you consider to be in the category.
)McAllen's work in this book is about developmental body
)topology (my term) not magic ritual.
)
)Arrguhh!
)
)The deficit in public education is missing most exactly the
)pedagogical insights available in Waldorf!
"The Three-Fold Spiral (from 6 years)
"This is a good exercise for restless, fidgety children; those who
dream or who have any sleeping difficulties.
"Draw a large -right hand- clock-wise spiral on a large sheet of
strong paper or card, 20" x 30" (50 com x 75 cm) in a broad red line
and place it flat on the floor. [illustration of spiral drawing]
"The child sits on a comfortable low chair in front of the paper,
holding a copper ball or an object--a crystal--in the left hand. The
right foot starts in the centre of the spiral and moves to the
outside, the left foot then takes over the ending position of the
right foot and moves to the centre. At the centre remove the foot.
Sitting with his feet together, the child leans forward and, with his
right hand, traces the spiral from the outside to the centre. Repeat
these three movements 12 times intitially, increasing the exercise
time to 15 minutes.
"The child may choose with which foot he begins the exercise, but
movements of left hand remains still, holding the copper ball or
weighted object. This applies to both right- and left-handed children.
[McAllen, Audrey E. The Extra Lesson: Exercises in movement,
drawing and painting to help children with difficulties in writing,
reading and arithmetic. Stourbridge, England: Robinswood Press,
1992. p. 53]
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2097.4 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Peter Farrell on Goethe and science teaching
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 10:01:23 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
References:
(200003171447.GAA01689 lists1.best.com)(200003181659.IAA17574 lists1.best.
com)(200003192033.MAA06389 lists1.best.com)
(200003211745.JAA09671 lists1.best.com)
(200003220733.XAA13325 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200003220733.XAA13325 lists1.best.com)
3/22/00, Alan S. Fine MD wrote:
) ) There's hope there. Wasn't Anthropop author and Dr. Incao run out of
) ) New York State for unscientific practices? I think he's set up shop
) ) in the new Anthropop power center in Colorado.
) )
) ) -Dan Dugan
)
)I haven't heard about this. Do you know this for a fact?
We discussed this here a year ago. Dr. Incao was reported to be under
investigation by the NY medical board in 1988. At that time he was
Medical Director of a Camphill Village.
"Dr. Philip Incao from Harlemville, New York, remains under investigation.
Twenty-nine charts were pulled from his files after his attorney, Sam
Abady, appealed to the courts for a stay of such action which was not
granted. Some of Dr. Incao's patients were present in the office when the
charts were pulled to protest the procedure. The scene was taped by video
and has appeared on local T.V. stations."
[Newsletter-1988-III. Anthroposophical Therapy and Hygiene Association.
Spring Valley, NY.]
"Dr. Phillip Incao - underwent a hearing before the New York State Office
of Professional Medical Conduct. From all indications his review will stop
with the hearing."
[Newsletter-1989-I. Anthroposophical Therapy and Hygiene Association.
Spring Valley, NY.]
January 27, 1999, Bob Tolz commented:
) One last bit of detective work on my part..... I spoke with Dr. Incao
)this morning and he verified the accuracy of the text that Dan quotes
)from the newsletters above. He added that the inquiry was a preliminary
)investigation to determine whether or not to file any form of charges.
)Nothing was found in his records or his course of conduct which called
)for any charges to be lodged against him.
)
) It seems to me a terrible injustice that a person can be exonerated,
)and then someone can bring up a dead-end investigation a decade after it
)ended in order to throw a dark cloud over the innocent person's name.
)Just my $0.02."
And I responded:
)Dr. Incao is indicted by the description of his lecture:
)
)"Vaccines, Viruses, and Aids"
)
)"Rudolf Steiner said that germs do not cause disease, but that fear and
)materialistic thinking (which are always linked) nourish the growth of
)germs. Dr. Incao will discuss how - in today's world of "killer" viruses,
)mandatory vaccinations and global immune deficiencies - we can begin to
)discern the true meaning of these phenomena with the help of spiritual
)science."
)
)I don't regard Dr. Incao as an innocent person. Anyone who practices
)Anthroposophical medicine is a practitioner of quackery. I would not trust
)a doctor who devotes his or her career to the study of a guru who preached
)against the germ theory of disease! His license should be revoked.
Recently, Dec. 22 1999, Alan Fine commented:
)I attended a lecture by Dr. Phillip Incao (whom by the way I have since
)gotten to know personally), entitled "The Heart Is Not a Pump". I felt he
)was clearly stating that the heart has minimal or no mechanical pumping
)action. He underscored his point with a number of experimental results.
)This experience lead me to conclude that Anthropsophy was not only a
)philosophy, but a religion, and that Anthroposophical medicine was a form of
)spiritual healing.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2097.5 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: on Mongolian spots and race
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 19:42:11 GMT
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[Harve]
)I've been trying to figure out the perimeters of these positions. I was
)under the impression that Diana and Alan totally opposed asking )any
)questions about why people of different races have these )different
)physical characteristics. That is different from asking )if they have
)different spirituality or life forces.
It's not different if your answer to "why" a person has a Mongolian spot,
for instance, is that they have different spirituality or life forces! If
you mean "why" in a scientific sense (such as your alluding to findings
about melanin re: skin color), I'd have no problem, but this gets sort of
muddy since anthroposophists consider their "why" questions to be
"scientific" in a "spiritual scientific" sense.
If you then proceed to set up rankings, categories of spiritual development,
or make judgments about levels of maturity, etc. based on skin color or
Mongolian spots, it's definitely racist. How much clearer can this be?
Diana
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2097.6 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Black Crayons and Stereotypes
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 19:44:23 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
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[Diana]
)I do think parents who are very straightforward, assertive, and )confident
)have a better chance of picking and choosing what they )like and don't like
)in Waldorf, and will not be given as much grief )as a less-confident
)parent.
[Harve]
)Isn't this true about most of life? I don't think that you can blame
)Waldorf for the parents' own psychological and social issues.
The question was, Can you maintain a healthy attitude of, "I'll take what I
like and leave the rest since I am in charge of my child's education" and
fit in in Waldorf? My answer was yes, but it's not easy, unless you happen
to agree with a lot of things you are probably not even aware they are doing
or are by nature a very assertive person. This is going to describe a
portion of the parent body but not everybody.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2097.7 ---------------
From: "debra harvey" (debharve hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: on Mongolian spots and race
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 20:04:12 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
[Diana]
)It's not different if your answer to "why" a person has a Mongolian spot,
)for instance, is that they have different spirituality or life forces! If
)you mean "why" in a scientific sense (such as your alluding to findings
)about melanin re: skin color), I'd have no problem, but this gets sort of
)muddy since anthroposophists consider their "why" questions to be
)"scientific" in a "spiritual scientific" sense.
[Harve]
One man's science is another man's religion.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2097.8 ---------------
From: "debra harvey" (debharve hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: on Mongolian spots and race
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 20:15:22 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
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[Diana]
)It's not different if your answer to "why" a person has a Mongolian spot,
)for instance, is that they have different spirituality or life forces! If
)you mean "why" in a scientific sense (such as your alluding to findings
)about melanin re: skin color), I'd have no problem, but this gets sort of
)muddy since anthroposophists consider their "why" questions to be
)"scientific" in a "spiritual scientific" sense.
[Harve]
Oh, so you don't object to the asking the question, as long as you get the
right answer. Quite frankly, I prefer Alan's general taboo on asking
questions of this nature to your approach.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2097.9 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: on Mongolian spots and race
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 12:36:00 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In-Reply-To: (200003242006.MAA08651 lists1.best.com)
On 24 Mar 2000, at 20:04, debra harvey wrote:
) [Diana]
)
) )It's not different if your answer to "why" a person has a Mongolian spot,
) )for instance, is that they have different spirituality or life forces! If
) )you mean "why" in a scientific sense (such as your alluding to findings
) )about melanin re: skin color), I'd have no problem, but this gets sort of
) )muddy since anthroposophists consider their "why" questions to be
) )"scientific" in a "spiritual scientific" sense.
)
) [Harve]
)
) One man's science is another man's religion.
Yes, Harve, but only if one defines "science" and "religion" in ways other
than the way they are generally defined by, say, scientists and
theologists.
Words mean something, and "science" and "religion" mean different things.
It is only by defining "science" in a non-mainstream way that
Anthroposophy can claim to be science.
This started with Terry Boardman's question:
)Why, for you, do those of East Asian origin, and only they have the eyes
) they do? Why do they have the Mongolian Spot? Why does blond hair exist
) almost only in cultures of European origin?
Now, I thought he was implying that those physical characteristics reflect
a spiritual difference between East Asian people and Europeans, that is,
that those people are fundamentally different from us in a spiritual way,
and that this difference is reflected in these physical characteristics.
Apparently Lisa thought so too, so she asked:
) Why, for you, do those of East Asian origin, and only they have the eyes
) they do? Why do they have the Mongolian Spot? Why does blond hair exist
) almost only in cultures of European origin?
I jumped in and asked Terry to answer this as well. So far, he has
declined to do so, and we're still waiting to hear from Terry about this.
I agree with Diana that it is racist to ascribe spiritual meanings to the
physical differences between the races. Anthroposophists might say it is
not racist unless one feels that one race is superior; rather, it is a
legitimate scientific inquiry. What do you think?
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carbonata descendum pantorum."
(A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.)
http://members.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2097.10 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: Re: on Mongolian spots and race - revised
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 12:40:58 -0800
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Dang, I screwed up. Here it is again:
On 24 Mar 2000, at 20:04, debra harvey wrote:
) [Diana]
)
) )It's not different if your answer to "why" a person has a Mongolian
) )spot, for instance, is that they have different spirituality or life
) )forces! If you mean "why" in a scientific sense (such as your alluding
) )to findings about melanin re: skin color), I'd have no problem, but
) )this gets sort of muddy since anthroposophists consider their "why"
) )questions to be "scientific" in a "spiritual scientific" sense.
)
) [Harve]
)
) One man's science is another man's religion.
Yes, Harve, but only if one defines "science" and "religion" in ways other
than the way they are generally defined by, say, scientists and
theologists.
Words mean something, and "science" and "religion" mean different things.
It is only by defining "science" in a non-mainstream way that
Anthroposophy can claim to be science.
This started with Terry Boardman's question:
)Why, for you, do those of East Asian origin, and only they have the eyes
) they do? Why do they have the Mongolian Spot? Why does blond hair exist
) almost only in cultures of European origin?
Now, I thought he was implying that those physical characteristics reflect
a spiritual difference between East Asian people and Europeans, that is,
that those people are fundamentally different from us in a spiritual way,
and that this difference is reflected in these physical characteristics.
Apparently Lisa thought so too, so she asked:
) Terry, please tell me, WHAT possible spiritual meanings does the shape
) of an East Asian person's eyes have? Or the Mongolian spot -- this is
) not the first time you have mentioned the so-called Mongolian spot
) (which for those who do not know is a small, bruise-colored splotch of
) pigmented skin found on many Asian people's torsos or
) backsides/buttocks at birth. These spots generally fade as the person
) grows. My daughter from China had a large Mongolian spot on her right
) flank, and it has disappeared almost completely now that she is 5 years
) old.)
)
) Pray tell, Terry, what does having such a spot mean? While you're at
) it, what does it mean that people from Scandinavia are generally
) fair-haired and light-eyed, and that those whose origins come from
) below the equator in Africa have dark skin (lots of melanin) ???
I jumped in and asked Terry to answer this as well. So far, he has
declined to do so, and we're still waiting to hear from Terry about this.
I agree with Diana that it is racist to ascribe spiritual meanings to the
physical differences between the races. Anthroposophists might say it is
not racist unless one feels that one race is superior; rather, it is a
legitimate scientific inquiry. What do you think?
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carbonata descendum pantorum."
(A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.)
http://members.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2097 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2098 --------------
001 - "John and Heather at Prof - Re: Response to Paulina Leonard.
002 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: on Mongolian spots and race
003 - "debra harvey" (debharve - Mongolian spots and race and question for Terry
004 - "debra harvey" (debharve - Re: on Mongolian spots and race
005 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Dan suggests a federal thought-police? (Was Re: Peter Farrell
006 - "debra harvey" (debharve - General Apology to All
007 - "David Cann" (canndw netz - Re: Off topic - a few of my "best"
008 - "Alan S. Fine MD" (asf pe - Re: on Mongolian spots and race
009 - "Luke Schelly" (lschelly - Re: external version
010 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: on Mongolian spots and race
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2098.1 ---------------
From: "John and Heather at Profoundia" (profoundia olywa.net)
Subject: Re: Response to Paulina Leonard.
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 13:22:09 -0800
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References: (200003242042.MAA01581 lists1.best.com)
Dan,
So, putting aside any spiritual stuff that may lie behind the exercise exercise, have you tried it?
Often children with sensory integrative dysfunction (and no, that's not Waldof terminology folks!)
will follow their hand movements with their tongue, bend the leg when the arm is moving or vice versa. The heavy object does not have to be a crystal or copper ball- it is just meant to help put attention toward immobilizing the hand. In short, helps teach children and adults to move their limbs consciously and independently of one another.
Close observation of children's movements can reveal that sometimes more parts of the body than necessary are moving when performing an activity like writing. This spiral, when performed exactly according to Mc Allen's directions, serves as an excellent diagnostic tool. It is a difficult exercise for many children and adults. I challenge list members to try it- following the instructions below in an exacting manner. Before bedtime is best, so I'm told.
If you don't believe in the spiritual stuff anyway, it won't hurt right?
She goes into a great deal of discussions of the body's "currents" in the book- this might seem spiritual and suspect to you.
Nonetheless , in studying body mechanics there are definite patterns of movement that are efficient and there are those that are not. One would need to do more study on the bodies of people who are propriocepticely and kinesthetically intelligent in order to determine whether Mc Allen's observations are accurate or not.
Heather Duke
) "The Three-Fold Spiral (from 6 years)
)
) "This is a good exercise for restless, fidgety children; those who
) dream or who have any sleeping difficulties.
)
) "Draw a large -right hand- clock-wise spiral on a large sheet of
) strong paper or card, 20" x 30" (50 com x 75 cm) in a broad red line
) and place it flat on the floor. [illustration of spiral drawing]
)
) "The child sits on a comfortable low chair in front of the paper,
) holding a copper ball or an object--a crystal--in the left hand. The
) right foot starts in the centre of the spiral and moves to the
) outside, the left foot then takes over the ending position of the
) right foot and moves to the centre. At the centre remove the foot.
) Sitting with his feet together, the child leans forward and, with his
) right hand, traces the spiral from the outside to the centre. Repeat
) these three movements 12 times intitially, increasing the exercise
) time to 15 minutes.
)
) "The child may choose with which foot he begins the exercise, but
) movements of left hand remains still, holding the copper ball or
) weighted object. This applies to both right- and left-handed children.
)
) [McAllen, Audrey E. The Extra Lesson: Exercises in movement,
) drawing and painting to help children with difficulties in writing,
) reading and arithmetic. Stourbridge, England: Robinswood Press,
) 1992. p. 53]
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2098.2 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: on Mongolian spots and race
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 21:32:49 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
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[Diana]
)It's not different if your answer to "why" a person has a Mongolian spot,
)for instance, is that they have different spirituality or life )forces! If
)you mean "why" in a scientific sense (such as your )alluding to findings
)about melanin re: skin color), I'd have no )problem, but this gets sort of
)muddy since anthroposophists consider )their "why" questions to
)be"scientific" in a "spiritual scientific" )sense.
[Harve]
)Oh, so you don't object to the asking the question, as long as you get the
)right answer. Quite frankly, I prefer Alan's general taboo )on asking
)questions of this nature to your approach.
You can ask any question you like! If I think the answer is racist, I will
tell you. Fair enough?
)______________________________________________________
)Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
)
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2098.3 ---------------
From: "debra harvey" (debharve hotmail.com)
Subject: Mongolian spots and race and question for Terry
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 22:05:21 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
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[Steve quoting Terry]
)This started with Terry Boardman's question:
)
) )Why, for you, do those of East Asian origin, and only they have the eyes
) ) they do? Why do they have the Mongolian Spot? Why does blond hair exist
) ) almost only in cultures of European origin?
[Steve]
)
)Now, I thought he was implying that those physical characteristics reflect
)a spiritual difference between East Asian people and Europeans, that is,
)that those people are fundamentally different from us in a spiritual way,
)and that this difference is reflected in these physical characteristics.
[Harve]
I read these questions as Terry asking Diana to think. He sated "I was
inviting you to ask yourself why these facts might be so?" I agree with
Terry that Diana's "PC blinkers blind [her] to thinking about what race is."
[Steve]
)I agree with Diana that it is racist to ascribe spiritual meanings to the
)physical differences between the races. Anthroposophists might say it is
)not racist unless one feels that one race is superior; rather, it is a
)legitimate scientific inquiry. What do you think?
[Harve]
No, I do not think that it is racist as Terry explains it.
I do not, however, accept the premise that white people are always
"close-minded" and conservative as the "middle aged" spirituality suggests
(although I see a few on this list who exemplify this). In fact, I know (a
few) white people who are actually childlike in their desire for learning
and energetic enthusiasm for life. (They ask "why?" a lot). I know a few
black people who are in "old age" stages of spirituality. Some are open
and wise as some elderly are, and some are tired and bitter as some elderly
are. (Actually, Alan and Diana may consider this racist and stereoptypical,
but I have always considered Native American spirituality to be very
advanced and wise--living in harmony with nature and her spirits).
I think that there are some elements of truth to what Terry says. I
certainly get no indication from his careful and thoughtful posts that he is
a "racist." As I said in an earlier post, our world is so small now and
media plays such a huge role, that any differences are becoming extinct. I
do think, and I need to think some more about this, that different people
living for eons together in isolation in different climates have different
(and universal) spiritual dimensions. Surely a society that lives in sun
and heat will have a different spiritual view that one that lives in
darkness and snow.
I am curious, however. Terry says that "[r]aces are but vessels for
differented experience for "individual spirits," as are the sexes." There
is certainly a difference between being incarnated into a black slave's body
or an African chieftain's body, or a jazz musician's body during the Harlem
renaissance. How is this explained in terms of differentiated experience
since race means different things at different times and in different
societies?
D. Harvey
______________________________________________________
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2098.4 ---------------
From: "debra harvey" (debharve hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: on Mongolian spots and race
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 22:14:05 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
)[Harve]
)
))Oh, so you don't object to the asking the question, as long as you get the
))right answer. Quite frankly, I prefer Alan's general taboo )on asking
))questions of this nature to your approach.
[Diana]
)
)You can ask any question you like! If I think the answer is racist, I will
)tell you. Fair enough?
[Harve]
Thanks for the permission, Diana. And I guess if I consider your
perspective to be vanilla, whitebread, suburban, pc, middle class, as of
someone who probably doesn't even know many (if any) non-whites, I'll let
you know. Incidentally, Diana, when was the last time you had an black
person over to your house for dinner?
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2098.5 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Dan suggests a federal thought-police? (Was Re: Peter Farrell ...)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 23:35:04 +0100
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References: (200003171447.GAA01689 lists1.best.com)(200003181659.IAA17574 lists1.best.
com)(200003192033.MAA06389 lists1.best.com)
(200003211745.JAA09671 lists1.best.com)
(200003220733.XAA13325 lists1.best.com) (200003241824.KAA09196 lists1.best.com)
Dan wrote this morning on Dr Incao:
) We discussed this here a year ago. Dr. Incao was reported to be under
) investigation by the NY medical board in 1988. At that time he was
) Medical Director of a Camphill Village. [snip]
You missed my answer two days ago (or you just stopped reading my
mails ..? Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:11:48 +0100)
See:
http://goodlight.net/vacexpert/pastprob.htm at
http://goodlight.net/vacexpert/ [snip]
Me:
Personally I would not call what seems to have been a possible
harassment by authorities that lead to nothing very interesting as any
sort of 'proof' that anthroposophical MD:s in any general sense or in
any specific case having mistreated their patients in a way that would
be considered the basis for criticism or withdrawing their medical
license, which was what you implied by stating that you 'knew' that
anthroposophical MD:s consciously had sent kids with meningitis that
needed treatment to daycare, implying maybe you did not 'know' what
you said you knew ...?
Dan:
) January 27, 1999, Bob Tolz commented:
[snip]
) ) It seems to me a terrible injustice that a person can be exonerated,
) )and then someone can bring up a dead-end investigation a decade after it
) )ended in order to throw a dark cloud over the innocent person's name.
) )Just my $0.02."
)
) And I [Dan] responded:
)
) )Dr. Incao is indicted by the description of his lecture:
) )
) )"Vaccines, Viruses, and Aids"
) )"Rudolf Steiner said that germs do not cause disease, but that fear and
) )materialistic thinking (which are always linked) nourish the growth of
) )germs. Dr. Incao will discuss how - in today's world of "killer" viruses,
) )mandatory vaccinations and global immune deficiencies - we can begin to
) )discern the true meaning of these phenomena with the help of spiritual
) )science."
) )
) )I don't regard Dr. Incao as an innocent person. Anyone who practices
) )Anthroposophical medicine is a practitioner of quackery. I would not trust
) )a doctor who devotes his or her career to the study of a guru who preached
) )against the germ theory of disease! His license should be revoked.
So your opinion is, Dan, that a fully trained, qualified and licenced
MD, with no proof of faulty medical conduct whatsoever should be
deprived of his or her licence, simply on the basis of his thinking on
basic medical problems ...
Am I correct to understand that as meaning that you'e not satisfied
with the present legistlation in the field regulating the _behaviour_
of doctors, but want it changed to incorporate specific limitations
and directions as far as the _thinking_ of MD:s are concerned. That
means then maybe also the types of organisations MD should be
permitted to be members of and work for, what periodicals and medical
journals they should be permitted to subscribe to, what types of
professional contacts and friends they should be permitted to have,
what dreams they should be allowed to have ...?
Interesting. In short, you want the creation of a federal
thought-police. Have you talked to your congressman about that?
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2098.6 ---------------
From: "debra harvey" (debharve hotmail.com)
Subject: General Apology to All
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 22:49:37 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Dear List,
I just want to apologize for my last response to Diana. I probably should
avoid being on the computer on Friday afternoons.
Sincerely,
Debra Harvey
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2098.7 ---------------
From: "David Cann" (canndw netzero.net)
Subject: Re: Off topic - a few of my "best"
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 23:19:09 -0500
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The following is a posting of an e-mail I sent to Diana today after her
response to me last evening:
----------------------------------
Oh, jeez, Diana.
I did not say "my children have unfettered access to my computer and read
whatever they want on it." I said they look over my shoulder when I read my
email. Re-reading it, I see it's not crystal-clear, but it is disturbing
that you head straight to an opposite extreme with your response to me.
They don't routinely read my email, they do routinely attempt to read over
my shoulder. In this case, I rewarded them with a tidbit.
Let me ask you the question I asked Lisa (which she never answered): Are
the feelings you express toward this school common among the parents? If
so, why do they stay there (I can tell you parents at our school are far
more interested in good schooling than in any sort of purity, and would not
hesitate to pull out if we didn't meet that need)? If not, (I am saying
this as gently as possible), perhaps you are seeing something that isn't
there?
Back to Alan's post of jokes, I printed it out and gave it to her (I would
never give them free rein in my email). I HATE people reading over my
shoulder, so I usually shoo the kids away when they (inevitably) cluster
behind me at the computer.
And yes, they do silly computer games sometimes, and use "paintbrush"
programs, and even watch a little TV many (or most) days. We do not hide
this from anybody. Nor do we apologize for it. From what I have seen, we
strongly limit media exposure for our children compared with nearly anybody
else we know (including most families in our school).
Our teachers might prefer they do less of this, but I assure you they have
no complaints. My youngest child was complemented by our kindergarten
teacher this year over how "young" she is for a third child. At least I
took it as a complement. Arguments of "purity" are not consistent with any
reading of Steiner I've ever done, nor with the teachings of our school's
anthroposophic mentor. Anthroposophy is a path of self-development.
To finish up, my 10 year old (oldest child) didn't "get" any of the jokes
other than the headless horseman joke. I knew she wouldn't, so I didn't
mind her reading them. There was no real "adult" content, just technical
psychiatric jargon, as I remember it.
Happy Friday! I will post this tonight or tomorrow, in all probability.
David
The post that engendered my response:
-----Original Message-----
From: Diana Winters (winters_diana hotmail.com)
To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com (waldorf-critics lists.best.com)
Date: Thursday, March 23, 2000 11:35 PM
Subject: Re: Off topic - a few of my "best"
)
)
)[David]
))In all my years associated with Waldorf schooling, the only place )I've
))seen anyone concerned about "Waldorf purity" is on the critics' )list.
))Perhaps that's the only place the concept of "Waldorf purity" )exists...
)
)Well, I am always accused of overgeneralizing, so let me say *at our
)(former) school* a fanatical concern exists for Waldorf purity, among some
)key faculty.
)
)[David said previously]
))all my kids just HAVE to read my email over my
))shoulder
)
)
)[Diana looking out for David's interests:]
)) )Yikes, another Waldorf purity alert. Aren't your children preadolescent?
))Reading your email?!
)
)[David]
))This IS a joke, right?
)
)David, I assure you this is not a joke. Assuming your children *are*
)preadolescent which I can't remember if you've said, the Waldorf teachers I
)know would consider it inappropriate, possibly very damaging, for your
)children to read your email. They are not supposed to use computers,
)remember?! At our school, they really meant that!
)Could you at least print it out for them first? (*That's* a joke.)
)
)Back to not joking: The content of this list would be especially
)inappropriate for pre-teens, who are supposed to look to adults as
)authorities who know what is "good" and "right." Therefore you should not
)let your children become aware that some people think the education they
are
)receiving is flawed or problematic. They might also be tempted to make
)"judgments" about the arguments presented here, and that is also damaging
)because they're too young to make judgments.
)
)And in particular, Alan's jokes about psychiatric patients would be
)considered completely inappropriate for children! Precocious awareness of
)adult issues and problems! Cynicism! Encouraging a false and premature
)sophistication! I am definitely not joking! (Maybe the Headless Horseman
)joke is okay.)
)
)Diana
)______________________________________________________
)Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
)
)
__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2098.8 ---------------
From: "Alan S. Fine MD" (asf peakpeak.com)
Subject: Re: on Mongolian spots and race
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 21:54:05 -0700
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) [Diana]
)
) )It's not different if your answer to "why" a person has a Mongolian spot,
) )for instance, is that they have different spirituality or life )forces!
If
) )you mean "why" in a scientific sense (such as your )alluding to findings
) )about melanin re: skin color), I'd have no )problem, but this gets sort
of
) )muddy since anthroposophists consider )their "why" questions to
) )be"scientific" in a "spiritual scientific" )sense.
)
) [Harve]
)
) )Oh, so you don't object to the asking the question, as long as you get
the
) )right answer. Quite frankly, I prefer Alan's general taboo )on asking
) )questions of this nature to your approach.
)
Debra, the issue is not only what questions are you asking but why are you
asking them. If you are asking a question about differing incidences of
illness in order to guide doctors in medical assessments, it is not racist.
If you are asking the same question to demonstrate a difference in "life
forces", or spirituality it is racist in my view. If you are asking
questions about racial (not cultural) differences out of simple curiosity
with no other goal in mind than to find differences, that, in my view is
also racist.
Alan Fine
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2098.9 ---------------
From: "Luke Schelly" (lschelly JackRouse.com)
Subject: Re: external version
Date: 25 Mar 2000 00:31:06 -0500
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)
)[Chand]
))3/4 of the mothers 130 treated with acupuncture delivered
))head first whereas less than 2/3 of the "control" group (also 130) )treated
))with "external cephalic version" - I don't know what this is )but it
))appears to be the more standard treatment - delivered head )first.
)
)[Diana]
))I believe external cephalic version just means turning the baby around by,
))well, literally turning it around, from the outside. Hard to imagine, but
))some midwives apparently can do it.
)
)[Luke, previous]
) We are going to our last midwives class tonight and will ask. From
)previous classes I take this to having the mother position herself (and
)her pelvis) in different ways to encourage the baby to rotate (and also
)face to the back of the mother). I think also taking showers and heat and
)cold packs are sometimes used.
) Also remember to image a freely floating cord next to your baby who is
)facing to the back head down....repeat....deep breaths... (Please do not
)tap on the glass).
)
[Yael]
)External version is when a midwife or doctor turns a baby into position....
)To *avoid* having to go for an external version, mothers-to-be can attempt
)various exercises and other techniques to get the baby to turn...
[Luke]
In Ohio, Midwives are restricted from doing external versions (only doctors are allowed) but midwives are experienced in the other methods/techniques that avoid the doctors external version. None of the midwives I asked had used or experienced acupunture to do this.
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2098.10 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: on Mongolian spots and race
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 06:13:51 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
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[Harve]
)Oh, so you don't object to the asking the question, as long as you get the
)right answer. Quite frankly, I prefer Alan's general taboo )on asking
)questions of this nature to your approach.
[Diana]
)You can ask any question you like! If I think the answer is racist, I will
)tell you. Fair enough?
[Harve]
)Thanks for the permission, Diana. And I guess if I consider your
)perspective to be vanilla, whitebread, suburban, pc, middle class, as of
)someone who probably doesn't even know many (if any) non-)whites, I'll let
)you know. Incidentally, Diana, when was the last )time you had an black
)person over to your house for dinner?
OK, Debra, you've let me know!
Most of your insults stick in one form or another, I suppose, except for
"suburban." (I'm guessing you mean "whitebread" in a "spiritual" sense so
refuting this one would be tricky.) :)
You suggested that *I* thought you should not ask these questions. I am just
pointing out the obvious, that you don't need anybody's permission to ask
anything you like, but don't complain if you get vehement responses if
people are offended. Incidentally, and I'm really not asking to be snotty
(giving each other the benefit of the doubt that no one is suggesting
censorship, and that everyone has a "right" to ask questions)-- don't you
think it is possible to ask a question that is *itself* racist? Is it in
fact true that *any* question at all is permissible, or else somebody is
censoring you? Nobody can or should send you to jail for having particular
thoughts, but does that make all your thoughts noble ones? Do you think I am
censoring you just by asking this, or being anti-intellectual (as both you
and Terry have suggested)? (Giving you the benefit of the doubt that you
think me anti-intellectual rather than just not too bright.) This discussion
reminds me of Joe Serio's "thoughts without moral content." Anything goes,
don't anybody try to stop me from thinking, I'm just being "open-minded."
Diana
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2098 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2099 --------------
001 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: General Apology to All
002 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: on Mongolian spots and race
003 - "Luke Schelly" (lschelly - RE: Black Crayons and Stereotypes
004 - "Luke Schelly" (lschelly - RE: Black Crayons and Stereotypes
005 - "Luke Schelly" (lschelly - RE: schools alike or not?
006 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Dan's misuse of Steiner quotes [was Re:PS]
007 - Terry Boardman (terry.boa - Re: on Mongolian spots and race
008 - Terry Boardman (terry.boa - Re: on Mongolian spots and race [to Chand]
009 - Terry Boardman (terry.boa - Re: Reincarnation and materialism
010 - Terry Boardman (terry.boa - Re: Reincarnation and materialism [to Peter F]
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2099.1 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: General Apology to All
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 06:23:46 GMT
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[Harve]
)Dear List,
)I just want to apologize for my last response to Diana. I probably should
)avoid being on the computer on Friday afternoons.
Yes, we dusted it up last Friday afternoon, too, I think. Forget it, Debra.
Actually, looking back, we had practically the *same* discussion last Friday
afternoon. Really, I don't take it personally, and I hope you don't either,
after all most of us don't even know each other despite the intense emotion
that seems to be generated. I think everyone is responding to personal
situations or experiences, rarely to each other at all, often it's nothing
to do with Waldorf or Steiner, we are just reacting out of our own
psychology. It's group psychology, too. People say the Internet is different
but I think group function is the same on the Internet as in "real life";
some people are drawn to each other and others somehow rub each other the
wrong way, but how meaningful is it? If we all knew each other in another
setting, the dynamics between us personally might be completely different.
And it is very easy to be a jerk talking to someone you don't know on email
(and I don't mean you've been a jerk, Debra, just that it is bound to happen
with all of us in an odd setting like this).
As a person, Debra, I respect that you are thinking about things and I don't
attribute any ill motive to you. If I have a personal reaction to you, it's
puzzlement, because if you've decided against putting your kids in Waldorf,
I don't see why evaluating Steiner's ideas is still of interest to you.
(There are lots better things to study!) But since you seem to be pursuing
this interest, I will say I see you as turning ideas over in your mind and
looking at them from all sides, so I've felt free to tell you sometimes how
a particular side looks to me. Hopefully you will give me the benefit of the
doubt as well.
I know you don't read this till Monday morning, so hope you had a relaxing
weekend. A very good idea to stay off the computer for the weekend.
Diana
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2099.2 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: on Mongolian spots and race
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 06:37:57 GMT
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[Debra considers me:]
)vanilla, whitebread, suburban, pc, middle class, as ofsomeone who )probably
)doesn't even know many (if any) non-whites, I'll let you )know.
)Incidentally, Diana, when was the last time you had an black )person over
)to your house for dinner?
[and I said:]
)Most of your insults stick in one form or another, I suppose, except for
)"suburban."
Wow, it's late at night and I'm replying to myself.
Just wanted to mention that I do know some black people.
But having them over to dinner would be kind of radical, don't you think. :)
Diana
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2099.3 ---------------
From: "Luke Schelly" (lschelly JackRouse.com)
Subject: RE: Black Crayons and Stereotypes
Date: 25 Mar 2000 02:28:25 -0500
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[Sarina]
)Will was surprised to discover how many things he had assumed
)to be black, were actually not when he went to look closely at them.
[Diana]
)Maybe this is about cultural conventions again, and they learn it )from
)picture books. I don't think it's thereby "wrong." I think of )roads as
)black too.
[Bob Tolz]
)You know what? I think of roads as black, too. But they're not.
)That shows how your thinking and mine, Diana, are divorced from )
)reality.
[Diana]
I don't think using cultural conventions, such as drawing roads black, is
"divorced from reality." It's just symbolism; a common language. It makes
communication possible.
[Luke]
And keeps it at the level of imprecise symbolic communication. I guess it depends on how much accurate communication you want to have.
If you let your child learn that roads are black not because you went out to see that they are black or not but because that's what people commonly say, aren't you habitualizing your child to judge things based not on what *they* see but by what popular conventions (or peer pressure) says they should "see"?
[Diana]
It's no more divorced from reality than language
itself -- the letters have only an abitrary relationship to the sounds,
[Luke]
At best, initially it was arbitrary (linguists might disagree completely). Today, the sounds and letters have specific relationships ("p" never sounds like an "A")
[Diana]
and
the words have only an arbitrary relationship to what we all understand them
to represent.
[Luke]
Nowhere is this more evident than on this list. (Except for some of my design meetings)
[Diana]
Use of these conventions isn't "wrong."
[Luke]
Sure. It is wrong to spell "cat" d-o-g.
[Diana]
We couldn't
communicate without them.
[Luke]
Some might say we can't communicate with them either.
Never forget. You can never put too much water in the reactor.
[Diana]
Relating this to Waldorf, children should not be prevented from learning or
using the symbolism of their culture just because the teacher has (what he
or she believes is) a "higher" understanding they would prefer the children
learn. Luke takes this "teach them to go against the dominant culture"
position too when he insists that because lines aren't really there in
"nature" children should't be allowed to represent things with lines, even
if their use is common currency.
[Luke]
Bzzz. Wrong.
I don't believe I ever said "teach them to go against the dominant culture" that you have in quotes. Neither did I say that I "insist that because lines aren't really there in "nature" children should't be allowed to represent things with lines, even if their use is common currency. The entire paragraph is a polemical fantasy of your imagination (wishing that I had said these things). It's pathetic (and quite common for you).
What I did say is that I believe that there is great value in *not over emphasizing* the use of line/symbolic conventions. I prefer instead encouraging the child to use their obvious abilities to *also* see the world in more than the cultural symbolism. In its shortest and crudest version it would read teach them so as not to be limited by only the dominant culture.
Outside of the (what?) three hours of waldorf Kindergarten, the children will have plenty of exposure to additional dominant culture inculcation. Of course you could just take a different tack and wait until your child gets to "when ever" in the public grade school art program before they begin on color blending and context and foreground and background. I prefer that my child's teacher offer both scenarios sooner, (as is done in our waldorf school) rather than the macaroni-and-glitter-on-paper-plates-time-sponge-class-management approach.
Perhaps your school is not associated so closely with numerous artist parents and university arts and design professors, or is not staffed with several former and current artists. Ours is. Perhaps that makes a world of difference. That many artists and arts minded people must see something of value in this approach. Some value the spritual aspect of it in tandem with the artistic; some, like myself, have less attatchment to the specific spritual and can see an alternatively impressive array of practical and technical qualities.
FWIW (as I posted before) The children at our school have free expression time *as well as* teacher directed lessons. During Free time they can draw whatever with crayons (black ones too) or finger knit or cut and hammer wood or paint or mold beeswax, play house etc.. I think today's free time in one K was about the entire three hours, spent outdoors in the playground/gardens.
Most enjoy playing in the spring time mud puddles (lake waldorf) that form in the playground. Some adults have been known to be two hours late to work... um ....er...."meeting with the teacher on the playground".
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2099.4 ---------------
From: "Luke Schelly" (lschelly JackRouse.com)
Subject: RE: Black Crayons and Stereotypes
Date: 25 Mar 2000 02:46:22 -0500
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[Diana, on watercolor]
And it would *never* be used as a way to interest someone in making letters
or learning to read or write -- that would defeat the whole purpose, from a
pure Waldorf point of view.
[Luke]
Diana perhaps you could shed some light on this off-the-cuff remark from your vast knowledge of the topic. Which waldorf is the pure waldorf you are talking about? The pure fantasy waldorf in your mind, the pure waldorf of historic literature or the pure waldorf in the actaul classrooms today (at which schools)?
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2099.5 ---------------
From: "Luke Schelly" (lschelly JackRouse.com)
Subject: RE: schools alike or not?
Date: 25 Mar 2000 02:55:49 -0500
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[Diana]
The particular hair you are splitting above is that the
grains-according-to-schedule thing is about kindergarten. (I don't think the
older children even have snacks.)
Diana,
This statement makes me wonder if your experience/knowledge with waldorf is limited to only Kindergarten? Of course grade school children have snack (and lunch too). How long was your stay at waldorf?
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2099.6 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Dan's misuse of Steiner quotes [was Re:PS]
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 23:36:17 -0800
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References: (200003221844.KAA02846 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200003221844.KAA02846 lists1.best.com)
3/22/00, Terry Boardman wrote:
)So, Dan, is it that the translation you depend on is inaccurate and
)misleading, or is it that you inserted the word "group" into the
)translations of the three terms above in order to bolster your
)line of argument? The latter I think unlikely I must say, so I suggest
)you get yourself a better translation of KHW before you use such
)shoddy stuff to contradict Paulina or anyone else.
This is really funny. I quote from an official Anthroposophical
publication, and Boardman is knocking me for distorting Steiner! How
rich! (It's from the Anthroposophic Press, revised Metaxa
translation.)
Then his favored translation used the term "race-spirits." Doesn't
sound much better than "group-soul," does it?
ROFL!
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2099.7 ---------------
From: Terry Boardman (terry.boardman cableinet.co.uk)
Subject: Re: on Mongolian spots and race
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 11:08:33 +0000
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References: (200003242042.MAA01581 lists1.best.com)
) From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
) Subject: Re: on Mongolian spots and race - revised
) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 12:40:58 -0800
)
)
) On 24 Mar 2000, at 20:04, debra harvey wrote:
)
) ) [Diana]
) )
)
) This started with Terry Boardman's question:
)
) )Why, for you, do those of East Asian origin, and only they have the eyes
) ) they do? Why do they have the Mongolian Spot? Why does blond hair exist
) ) almost only in cultures of European origin?
)
) Now, I thought he was implying that those physical characteristics reflect
) a spiritual difference between East Asian people and Europeans, that is,
) that those people are fundamentally different from us in a spiritual way,
) and that this difference is reflected in these physical characteristics.
) Apparently Lisa thought so too, so she asked:
)
) ) Terry, please tell me, WHAT possible spiritual meanings does the shape
) ) of an East Asian person's eyes have? Or the Mongolian spot -- this is
) ) not the first time you have mentioned the so-called Mongolian spot
) ) (which for those who do not know is a small, bruise-colored splotch of
) ) pigmented skin found on many Asian people's torsos or
) ) backsides/buttocks at birth. These spots generally fade as the person
) ) grows. My daughter from China had a large Mongolian spot on her right
) ) flank, and it has disappeared almost completely now that she is 5 years
) ) old.)
) )
) ) Pray tell, Terry, what does having such a spot mean? While you're at
) ) it, what does it mean that people from Scandinavia are generally
) ) fair-haired and light-eyed, and that those whose origins come from
) ) below the equator in Africa have dark skin (lots of melanin) ???
)
) I jumped in and asked Terry to answer this as well. So far, he has
) declined to do so, and we're still waiting to hear from Terry about this.
Sorry I haven't been able to get round to this for the last couple of days.
As I was certainly the one responsible for bringing up this topic, let me
make it absolutely clear where I am with it. I have NO answers - OK
everyone? No answers - I do not know why there is a Mongolian spot,
nor why the eye folds exist, nor why blond hair is associated with those
of European origin - *but I have questions*, OK? I am interested to
know, because I am interested in human beings and human history. So
what I profoundly object to - as profoundly no doubt as they object
to what they perceive to be 'racism' - is when people express thoughts
like those expressed by Diana, Alan, Lisa, and Dan on this list to the
effect that "thou shalt not think about these questions, because we have
decided that they are 'racist'", or "thou shalt only think about them in
the way that we have decided thou mayest", or "if thou darest to
think about them and express views or even questions about them,
we shall brand thee a 'racist' and thou shalt be anathema!"
To repeat, for the nth time, to want to understand physical differences
and what light understanding those physical differences may throw on
human evolution as a whole does not mean one judges those human beings'
individuality or that one regards them in any way as inferior or
superior to anyone else. I assert that those on this list who, without
any proof or knowledge of me and my biography, claim that I *do*
believe that physical attributes bestow spiritual superiority/inferiority,
do so as a result of thinking that is simply rank prejudice.
I also repeat that those, like Diana, who declare such matters as the
physical attributes in question to be irrelevant trivia are, *in this case*,
"ignorabimuses" - we *shall* not know (as distinct from ignoramuses
- we do not know) . I mentioned those physical attributes in the
first place just as examples pulled out of a hat as questions related
to race which one can think about in seeking to understand what
race is. I was flabbergasted by Diana's trivialising lack of interest
in what race is. If we are to overcome racism, we must understand
what race is, not just try to think it away and pretend it doesn't exist,
or that any attempt to discuss it smacks of 'racism'.
This is like the
church Christians trying to think away the centuries of division in the
church and suddenly pretend that the Catholics and the Anglicans
and Orthodox are all one happy family; it contributes to zero
understanding of what has been going on in Christianity for the
last 1700 years or so. So all those disputes about theology and dogma
signified nothing? They were all irrelevant trivia in face of the love of
Christ and the Unity of Mankind? No! On the contrary, they signified
something extremely important in the evolution of consciousness,
something we need to understand if we are to comprehend where we
have been and where we are going. Obviously, this doesn't mean
we have to *celebrate* those painful disputes and ecclesiastical blood-
lettings, but we surely need to try to understand them.
I happen to think that Rudolf Steiner had more interesting, stimulating
and insightful things to say on the subject of race, ethnicity *and*
individuality than just about everyone else I have come across who
writes from a conventional intellectual perspective. By the latter I mean
one informed by the materialist ethos that still dominates so-called
"scientific discourse" (as narrowly defined by the self-styled Age of
Enlightenment lobby); and I think I am fairly well-read for my 47 years.
Saying this about Rudolf Steiner does not make me a worshipper of a
cult of Rudolf Steiner as Dan Dugan ignorantly asserts anthroposophers
are, but a *respecter* of Rudolf Steiner as someone who I consider to have
made a signal contribution to human culture and knowledge, albeit one
which most people are not yet aware of.
However, Steiner did not, for example, explain the origin of the Mongolian
spot, and as the father of a Eurasian child who was born with one, I was
naturally interested to know what it was. Medical explanations like
"oh it's just a skin pigmentation found in many children of East Asian origin;
it will disappear completely in a few years, nothing to worry about" was for
me just a cover for ignorance. Certainly, it has been nothing to worry about,
but that doesn't mean the phenomenon in itself is any the less interesting.
As the world 'shrinks', the estimation of racial differences is, thankfully,
on the decline, but there will for a long while yet be counterattacks
from those who are still *emotionally* attached in some way to their
race. The only way these can be met in the long run is through
understanding race and understanding the counterattackers
as individuals and their individual problems, why they hate and fear,
for example. Obviously, as some people on this list have pointed out,
we can start by looking within and asking whether racial attachments,
hatreds and fears exist in our own souls. Race, as a factor in human
evolution, is slowly fading out, as Steiner repeatedly said it would, but
why it is and why it was there in the first place surely needs to be understood.
)
)
) I agree with Diana that it is racist to ascribe spiritual meanings to the
) physical differences between the races. Anthroposophists might say it is
) not racist unless one feels that one race is superior; rather, it is a
) legitimate scientific inquiry. What do you think?
)
I agree with the latter point and strongly disagree with Diana's. The very
origin of races - as of humanity itself - is to my mind "spiritual". The question
is: what kind of spiritual influences and causal factors are we talking about?
Repeatedly, Steiner pointed out that merely to speak of "spirituality",
"heaven" etc is vague and of no consequence. The "spiritual world" is
surely as differentiated as the physical world. Diana seems to think that
"ascribing spiritual meanings" means "ascribing morally discriminating"
meanings and thus moral value judgments of innate superiority and
inferiority. I dispute that and I do not do that.
Terry
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2099.8 ---------------
From: Terry Boardman (terry.boardman cableinet.co.uk)
Subject: Re: on Mongolian spots and race [to Chand]
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 11:29:36 +0000
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)
) From: Chand.Desai mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
) Subject: Re: on Mongolian spots and race
) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 14:09:00 -0600
)
) [Debra H.]:
) )But, I am wondering--and this is just based on my own individual
) )ponderings--not on Steiner or anyone else. When the world was much smaller
) )and people didn't travel more than a few miles away from where they were
) )born, could there not be innate spiritual differences just based solely on
) )where a people was placed on earth? Isn't there a difference between a
) )people who lived in year round light and warmth versus a people who spent
) )one half of the year in darkness and cold? I don't know what the answer is
) )or if there even is one, but it is a question that occurred to me last.
)
) I would be surprized if goegraphy and climate did not confer mental and
) spiritual differences,
) just they confer physical differences. We are, according biological
) fundamentalism, a product
) of nature and nuture.
)
Chand, would you agree that the binoculars of nature and nurture
which the media are ever encouraging us to see questions of human
behaviour through are but another example of an interminable dualism
which still drags at us? Are not "nature and nurture" just another
way of saying human life is conditioned only by materialistic factors
*outside* the human individual - behaviourism with another name?
Nature and nurture mean the concept of a human individuality that
exists before birth and after death has no place, wouldn't you say?
Everything that I am is explained either by my genes - from my parents -
or as a result of my parental and social upbringing. "I" am thus irrelevant
in explaining who "I" am.
This is why reincarnation is such a radical
thought in today's context; it completely undermines the dominance of
the materialistic nature-nurture dualism. Hollywood has made films about
a great many subjects, endless films about ghosts for example. Safe stuff -
they don't threaten the paradigm. Reincarnation stories would fit very
well with what the cinema is capable of, yet how many films about
reincarnation have there been? Maybe, just maybe, the 21st century will
see more.
Regards
Terry
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2099.9 ---------------
From: Terry Boardman (terry.boardman cableinet.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Reincarnation and materialism
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 11:59:50 +0000
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)
) From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
) Subject: Re: Reincarnation and materialism
) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:08:06 -0800
) On 22 Mar 2000, at 23:42, Terry Boardman wrote:
)
) ) ) From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
) ) ) Many Anthroposophists like
) ) ) to think that materialists are full of despair and emptiness, and if not,
) ) ) they don't understand the philosophical implications of their own world
) ) ) view.
) )
) ) "Many Anthroposophists like to think..." How many have you met who think
) ) like you say about materialists?
)
) I believe I've had detailed discussions about this, on this list, at least
) twice. OK, two people is not "many," but I didn't see any
) anthroposophists chiming in and agreeing with me that one may be a
) philosophical materialist, fully understand that position, and still lead
) a life filled with love, a sense of purpose and wonder, and personal
) satisfaction.
OK Steve, but note you did say "many" and now you recognise that
'two is not "many"'. Maybe anthroposophers didn't write in because
they just didn't read your post on that issue, I don't know. I get the
digest and I must admit, I don't read everything; I just don't have
the time.
)
)
) ) I certainly don't. I have met many atheists and materialists who are
) ) jovial people who seem to live full lives. However, that doesn't mean
) ) they have necessarily thought through the ramifications of their
) ) philosophical positions.
)
) Well, since you don't think the way I have described, then you must agree
) that at least some materialists who have thought out the ramifications of
) their philosophical positions nevertheless lead full, satisfying lives.
) Glad to hear it! Sorry I got the wrong impression.
)
No problem. However, I will say something that may make you throw
your hands up in the air. Since, as you may have gathered, I don't
subscribe to the nature-nurture dualism (actually a materialist monism)
as the only explanation for human behaviour, dare I suggest that the
happy materialist referred to above may have had a previous life in
which s/he was a deeply religious or spiritual person? Oops...:-)
Am I just teasing? I don't think I am.
)
) ) Simply stating that something is bigotry and prejudice without engaging
) ) in discussion is itself an example of bigotry and prejudice, I would have
) ) thought...
)
) Well, I don't see how it is bigoted to recognize bigotry without wanting
) to discuss it, but in any event, I'm here discussing it.
Glad to see you are, but I fail to see the difference between what you've
just written and the thought that mediaeval clerics would often condemn
something from afar as heresy, refuse to engage with it and proceed to
burn the heretic.
Cheers,
Terry
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2099.10 ---------------
From: Terry Boardman (terry.boardman cableinet.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Reincarnation and materialism [to Peter F]
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 12:37:58 +0000
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)
)
) From: Peter Farrell (peter.farrell vu.edu.au)
) Subject: Re: Reincarnation and materialism
) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 15:19:24 +1100
) MIME-Version: 1.0
) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
)
) Terry Boardman
) )
) )No. This is a misunderstanding. I am no more "enthusiastic" about
) )coming back for repeated existences than I am about repeated sojourns
) )in the spiritual world between earth lives. It's not a question of being
) )"enthusiastic". It's just a question of going with what is.
) )Materialists, like conventional Christians,
) )must come to terms with their notion that they have only one physical
) )existence in all the aeons of Time. Their origin, genetic makeup and fate
) )is as much of a mystery to them (though no doubt they would say otherwise
) )and explain the physical processes behind how their existences come
) )about and cease) as it is to mystics. Those who "believe" in the
) )cosmic heat death prescribed by the Second Law of Thermodynamics
) )must come to terms with the notion that all of human love and culture is
) )totally meaningless and pointless. Some of them try to pass this off as a
) )heroic/stoic stance (Bertrand Russell's 'unyielding despair' or Sir Arthur
) )Eddington's 'deepest humiliation'). Conventional Christians believe they
) )are created as souls by God for this one life and after death, will be
) )with God in a vague place called "Heaven"
)
) I note others have responded to this but I would like to as well. I agree
) entirely that my existence is as much of a mystery to me as any mystic. Can
) I understand why I exist for this insignificant fraction of the life of the
) universe.
Why is this fraction any less significant than any other? Can you honestly say
there is no judgment behind that phrase 'insignificant fraction'? If you can,
Peter, I will accept that.
) I can't. Nor do I expect science to do this at any time.
I consider this absolutist statement to be unworthy of a true scientist.
It is worthy of a dogmatic theologian or a material scientist, one whose
thinking imposes arbitrary limits on the search for knowledge and who
prefers to live within the thinking of the 17th-19th centuries.
) I have
) to come to terms with my own immortality.
I think you mean 'mortality', don't you Peter, not 'immortality'? Was that a
Steinerian slip? :-)
) Currently, the consensus is that
) this heat death of the universe is likely, although a series (possibly
) infinite) of bounces is also hypothesized. I can't get too excited about
) scientific predictions which are at the very weak edge of certainty. If we
) can really sort out how much mass there is in the universe we may be in a
) better position to know.
If I follow your logic from the beginning of your post , you seem to be
saying that the reason why you exist is bound up with the amount of mass
in the universe. Could you clarify the connection here, and suggest what
is the "mass" of your "I"? Because this seems to me to be another example of
quantity-bound 17th century thinking.
) Is the universe immortal or not? Nobody knows.
How can you say nobody knows? All you mean is that you haven't yet
encountered the thoughts of someone who may know.
)
) What is clear is that the sun is mortal. We won't have warm afternoons at
) the beach forever. Perhaps by the time this is an issue we may be able to
) do something about it. Who knows. I don't agree that this means that human
) love and culture is meaningless or pointless. My children who are young
) enough to be completely unaware and uninterested in the possible heat death
) of the universe don't think my love for them is meaningless or pointless
) and I think they are right.
I don't see why - given your particular scientific beliefs - you deny that human love
and culture are meaningless. You simply state that they aren't. It seems to me that
underpinning many scientists' rationality is the very faith they claim to deny.
I trust you have been telling your children all the right materialist fairy tales
which don't have happy endings and feature the heat death of all and everything
and its disappearance into the Void.
Interesting that you speak of the sun in relation to love. When you look up at
the sun, how do you regard it? What do you consider love to be? A movement
of molecules? A genetic programme? An electro-chemical reaction? Something
else? May I ask what?
) Mind you they don't know that their father is
) an atheist materialist either.
)
Don't worry, they won't hold it against you if they love you Peter :-)
Regards,
Terry
)
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2099 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2100 --------------
001 - Terry Boardman (terry.boa - Re: Reincarnation and Materialism [to Diana]
002 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - RE: Black Crayons and Stereotypes
003 - Terry Boardman (terry.boa - Re: Reincarnation and materialism [to Bob]
004 - Terry Boardman (terry.boa - Re: Reincarnation and materialism [to Chand]
005 - Terry Boardman (terry.boa - Re: Dan's misuse of Steiner quotes [was Re: PS]
006 - "Joel A. Wendt" (hermit t - Re: Response to Paulina Leonard.
007 - "Joel A. Wendt" (hermit t - Re: on Mongolian spots and race - revised
008 - paulina leonard (pkleonar - Re: Response to Paulina Leonard.
009 - "Alan S. Fine MD" (asf pe - Re: on Mongolian spots and race - revised
010 - "Joel A. Wendt" (hermit t - Re: on Mongolian spots and race - revised
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2100.1 ---------------
From: Terry Boardman (terry.boardman cableinet.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Reincarnation and Materialism [to Diana]
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 13:20:32 +0000
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)
)
) From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
) Subject: Re: Reincarnation and materialism
) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 04:49:21 GMT
) [Terry]
) )I have met many atheists and materialists who are jovial people who )seem
) )to live full lives.
)
) Ah, they only *seem* to live full lives, despair and emptiness behind the
) smiling faces. "Jovial," Terry? Like Santa Claus?
This is typical of some of your thinking Diana - low-down stuff -
presumption based on precisely nothing. Is this supposed to be
an example of 'intuition'? It seems you dislike/suspect the word
'jovial'. Jovial for you seems to mean Santa Claus means mythical
means pretentious, unreal etc etc etc Jovial for me means 'jovial',
as in 'jovial', like Jove, Jupiter, expansive, easy-going; in other
words, the meaning of the word. That was how it was intended.
)
)
) [Terry]
) )However, that doesn't mean they have necessarily thought through )the
) )ramifications of their philosophical positions.
)
) Well, who has?
Dare I say, quite a few people, actually
) A Steve Premo-esque argument comes to mind here; you can
) probably find holes, or inconsistencies, or
) places-where-the-ramifications-haven't-been-thought-through in most peoples'
) world views. I suspect atheists have done more, rather than less, thinking
) about the ramifications of their world view than many religious people.
This gross and totally unfounded generalisation shoots itself in the foot.
One meets many who call themselves atheists who after an emotional reaction
against narrow-minded religion in their youth, decide for atheism and have hardly
thought about the meaning of life since.
) In a
) sense this entire list is about whether anthroposophists have "thought
) through the ramifications of their philosophical positions"; some of us have
) noticed a few little problems.
)
Another logical non-sequitur since you have just stated that just about
everybody has problems "thinking through......etc", so why spend so
much of your time criticising such people for having a few little problems?
)
) )Consider the following from two who did at least reckon honestly )with what
) )they felt to be the philosophical consequences of the )Second Law of
) )Thermodynamics:
)
) )First, Bertrand Russell:
) )"...all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the )inspiration,
) )all the noonday brightness of human genius, are )destined to extinction in
) )the vast death of the solar system,
)
) Well, this is a depressive you're quoting.
Are you saying you know Bertrand Russell to have been a depressive
on the basis of a thorough knowledge of his biography? Or are you saying
you have just judged him to have been so on the basis of the above quote
alone? If the latter, then I find your statement depressing, since it
casually dismisses and labels a highly complex individual. No wonder
you say what you say about Steiner.
What evidence do you have, either from the quote or from Russell's
biography that he was depressed by the thought of the heat death and
unyielding despair? I said he was honest, not that he was depressed.
) If you want to despair it isn't
) hard to find a reason. Many religious ideas depress me more than the
) possible death of the solar system a few gazillion years from now. In fact
) few things can send me into a dark place faster than childhood memories of
) church.
I can certainly understand your feeling that - but while some religious ideas
may depress you, they do not depress the believers; on the contrary they
uplift them because they provide meaning and hope. The more recent religion
of scientific materialism has, I suggest, also been responsible for not a few suicides
and depressions of sensitive souls and also had not alittle to do with some
notorious cases of mass murder in the 20th century. The history of the
arts in the West in the last 200 years can, I suggest, not be fully understood
without taking into consideration the wrestling of many thinkers and artists
with the nihilism and meaninglessness that many felt was the consequence of the
Copernican, Darwinian, Helmholtzian and Nietzschean revelations.
Terry
)
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2100.2 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Black Crayons and Stereotypes
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 13:44:17 GMT
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[Diana, on why children draw roads black, wondering why this is a problem to
some:]
)I don't think using cultural conventions, such as drawing roads )black, is
)"divorced from reality." (snip) It's no more divorced )from reality than
)language itself -- the letters have only an )abitrary relationship to the
)sounds etc.
[Bob Tolz]
) Bad analogy, Diana. Really bad. In fact, it highlights exactly why I
)disagree with your position.
) Surely, letters are symbols and conventions. There's no way )that letters
)could be made any closer to what they represent, )because they are a visual
)representation of an auditory phenomenon. )On that I agree with you.
Interesting to note that attempting to make the letters a visual
representation of an auditory phenomenon describes *exactly* the Waldorf
approach to teaching reading (or at least to learning the alphabet).
) In contrast, art is a visual representation of a *visual*
)phenomenon. Although, it's impossible to make an exact )representation of
)what one sees, one can develop technique to make )it closer and closer to
)reality, rather than reductionist and )divorced from reality.
Yes, assuming that "representing reality" is what children (or anyone) are
and should be doing in their artwork (as opposed to, say, expressing
themselves, or having fun, or increasing fine motor coordination, or
learning conventions of visual communication), and assuming we could all
agree on what "reality" we would like them to be representing. I'm not sure
you can so easily separate "reality" from the means (shared or individual)
of representing it. Great art is certainly not always "realistic." But this
is turning into a philosophy seminar and I would rather get back to what is
done in the classroom - see below!
) If you want your children to use art as symbolism, that's )fine with me.
)I'd prefer them to receive sufficient guidance to )develop some technique
)and artistry.
Bob, your points are well taken, or would be if we were talking about
perhaps college-level art instruction rather than children's drawings. As
usual I'm talking about what is actually done in Waldorf classrooms (this
ol' black crayon question that just will not die). The question to me is
whether you *stop* children from drawing roads black (which you can do
easily enough by withholding the black crayon), which they may do simply
because they have seen them represented with black in picture books, or
whether you just relax and accept that children are motivated to understand
and share the symbolism of their culture and there is really no need to
squelch this impulse. If you want to turn them into artists, at this tender
age, sure I guess you need more sophisticated techniques. (And you will wind
up, surprise surprise, with behavior problems during art period.)
(In a related post Chand sneers that I am talking about cartoons; I am just
not interested in whether they draw cartoons or produce sophisticated
artwork. This is elementary school we are talking about! -- in fact,
kindergarten and preschool, since the original issue was withholding the
black crayon and I believe the black crayon is usually made available by
first or second grade.)
Diana
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2100.3 ---------------
From: Terry Boardman (terry.boardman cableinet.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Reincarnation and materialism [to Bob]
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 13:41:22 +0000
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) From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
) Subject: RE: Reincarnation and materialism
) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 10:08:13 -0500
)
) ) ) ) [Terry]
) ) ) )
) ) ) ) )Those who "believe" in the cosmic heat death prescribed
) ) by the Second Law
) ) ) ) )of Thermodynamics must come to terms with the notion
) ) that all of human
) ) ) ) )love and culture is totally meaningless and pointless.
)
) [Bob Tolz]
)
) No they don't.
)
Bob, I said "they must" not they "do". Did you mean, "they don't have to"?
)
) The fact that the universe may descend into a coldness billions of
) years from now does not make me feel that human love and culture is totally
) meaningless and pointless.
)
May I ask why?
)
) Either you yourself are expressing despair at the prospect and
) therefore reject it
I do not reject it anymore than I reject the idea that my physical body will
fall into pieces and be eaten by worms and fall. What I reject is the idea
that the experiences which that body has enabled me to have in this life
will be somehow lost to the universe.
) or you conclude that one who accepts such a prospect
) must necessarily despair. I submit to you that acceptance of that
) prediction does not necessarily lead to despair or a conclusion that human
)
see my above comment. But that comment is predicated on the assumption
that there is continuity of existence before birth and after death. As this
is not the case for materialists, I am simply interested to know how materialists
cope with the ramifications of their position if indeed they think about it.
) love and culture are totally meaningless and pointless.
)
) [Terry]
) ) I have
) ) met many atheists
) ) and materialists who are jovial people who seem to live full
) ) lives. However,
) ) that doesn't mean they have necessarily thought through the
) ) ramifications
) ) of their philosophical positions.
)
) [Bob Tolz]
)
) The Russell and Eddington quotations are merely representative of
) *one* response. I feel quite confident that I could come up with quotations
) showing a much more hopeful response. But why bother? It is not necessary
) to go through philosophical expositions to determine what attitude one wants
) to hold.
)
)
OK Bob I can live with that, but without digging up those quotations you
mention, could you outline a couple of other responses based on a
materialist paradigm for me to mull over? If you think this is getting off-topic
feel free to mail me personally. If you'd rather not, that's OK.
)
) [Terry]
) )
) ) Note Russell still refers to the 'soul'. Much scientific
) ) thinking has already
) ) dispensed with that hoary superstition since his time.
) ) Indeed, what's the
) ) point of having one if Russell's gloomy scenario represents the truth?
)
) [Bob Tolz]
) One's attitude can be chosen independently of an uncertain future.
) Besides, what's so gloomy about the universe winking out billions of years
) from now? I don't expect to be in the audience for that event.
)
Erm...may I ask why not? And why do you think you will be in the "audience"?
You're on stage, mate, as we all are. If there is an audience, it is surely one of
invisible beings.
)
) [quoting from Eddington]
) ) But if your theory is found
) ) to be against the Second Law of Thermodynamics I can give you no hope;
) ) there is nothing for it but to collapse in the deepest humiliation."
)
) [Bob Tolz]
)
) I'll go up against Eddington on this one any day. The proper word
) is not "humiliation," it's "humility." I find it much more spiritual to
) accept my present place in the universe with humility than to balk at
) scientific theory that makes pretty good sense in light of the available
) data.
)
Who's baulking? I certainly am not (see my above comment about my physical
body) although I have my doubts about scientists' timeframes, both in the
future and in the past.
I don't understand how you are using the word 'spiritual' here. Could you
clarify?
)
) There is sometimes a fine line between humiliation and humility.
) Humiliation results when a belief or position collapses despite throwing
) temper tantrums in opposition to that collapse.
I think that was what Eddington was referring to.
) Humility results when one
) allows an open mind to accept that what one believes may be modified in
) response to experience, evidence and reality.
)
Indeed
)
) I submit to you, Terry, that in rejecting a generally accepted
) scientific theory such as the Second Law of Thermodynamics for
) philosophical/spiritual reasons, both Russell and Eddington displayed that
) the thinker did not think enough about how to transcend and reconcile the
) apparent paradoxes between theory and thought.
)
Bob, Russell and Eddington didn't *reject* the Second Law - they accepted it.
I quoted them as examples of people who honestly accepted it, not as rejecters.
Regards,
Terry
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2100.4 ---------------
From: Terry Boardman (terry.boardman cableinet.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Reincarnation and materialism [to Chand]
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 13:47:37 +0000
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)
) From: Chand.Desai mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
) Subject: RE: Reincarnation and materialism
) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 09:39:15 -0600
)
)
) [Terry]
) ) )Those who "believe" in the cosmic heat death prescribed by the Second Law
) ) )of Thermodynamics must come to terms with the notion that all of human
) ) )love and culture is totally meaningless and pointless.
)
) [Bob Tolz]
) ) No they don't.
) )
) ) The fact that the universe may descend into a coldness billions of
) )years from now does not make me feel that human love and culture is totally
) )meaningless and pointless.
) )
) ) Either you yourself are expressing despair at the prospect and
) )therefore reject it or you conclude that one who accepts such a prospect
) )must necessarily despair. I submit to you that acceptance of that
) )prediction does not necessarily lead to despair or a conclusion that human
) )love and culture are totally meaningless and pointless.
)
) I agree. Who says something has to be eternal & everlasting to have a point or
) meaning. We all die, so even those who don't believe in heat death have to come
) to terms with their own mortality and limited impact upon the universe.
It's not a question of whether one thinks in terms of 'limited impact' Chand,
but of 'no impact'.
Terry
)
)
) -
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2100.5 ---------------
From: Terry Boardman (terry.boardman cableinet.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Dan's misuse of Steiner quotes [was Re: PS]
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 14:29:23 +0000
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) From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
) Subject: Re: Dan's misuse of Steiner quotes [was Re:PS]
) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 23:36:17 -0800
)
) 3/22/00, Terry Boardman wrote:
)
) )So, Dan, is it that the translation you depend on is inaccurate and
) )misleading, or is it that you inserted the word "group" into the
) )translations of the three terms above in order to bolster your
) )line of argument? The latter I think unlikely I must say, so I suggest
) )you get yourself a better translation of KHW before you use such
) )shoddy stuff to contradict Paulina or anyone else.
)
) This is really funny. I quote from an official Anthroposophical
) publication, and Boardman is knocking me for distorting Steiner! How
) rich! (It's from the Anthroposophic Press, revised Metaxa
) translation.)
)
) Then his favored translation used the term "race-spirits." Doesn't
) sound much better than "group-soul," does it?
)
) ROFL!
)
) -Dan Dugan
)
A pathetic response from Dan Dugan! We all know he can do better than that,
but we also know he doesn't have much to say when he's on a loser.
What is an official Anthroposophical publication? The only
"official" publications are those published by the Goetheanum in Dornach
and by the national societies in each country.
Translations of Steiner's works are not official publications. This is a typical
example of Duganspeak. He claims to be on the side of science against
anthro mysticism, superstition etc. One of the hallmarks of science is
accuracy in terminology, so that we all know what we are talking about.
He then uses the word "official" in a totally misleading context.
As I said in my post, there are any number of bad translations of Steiner
about. Just because they happen to be published by companies with names like
Anthroposophic Press (I assume that the one Dugan was referring to was
Knowledge of the Higher Worlds and its Attainment.
(1904) Trans. George Metaxa, revised by Henry B. and Lisa D. Monges.
Hudson, NY: Anthroposophic Press, 1947 - NB an old translation)
and Rudolf Steiner Press doesn't mean they are necessarily free from
error. Dugan would be right to criticise the editors for putting out a
substandard translation, but not for claiming
that the translation he happens to own is *the* translation. One can imagine
that if he thinks Anthroposophy is a monolithic sect, then translations would be
uniformly vetted. This is not the case, because Anthroposophy is *not* a sect.
The book he quoted from *does* badly translate the passage in question; I gave
the German original terms and nowhere was the word 'group soul' mentioned.
Dugan likes to quote Steiner to show he's well-read in Anthroposophy; he ought
then to know that group-soul (Gruppenseele) is a technical term for Steiner and
refers to something specific. Another case of Dugan being unscientific when it
suits him.
A third case of his disingenuousness is the way he speaks of my "favored translation"
of the word "Rassengeister" as "race spirits" and claims this is not much different
from "group soul". It is not my favored translation; it is the correct translation.
Rassengeister = race spirits (lit. spirits of races)
Gruppenseelen = (lit.) group souls
It is totally different in the spiritual scientific sense and if
Dugan knows anything about Anthroposophy (on the basis of know your
enemy) he ought to know that Rassengeister are beings of a different order
to Gruppenseelen, and also that Steiner spent much energy in distinguishing
soul from spirit, both in the human being and in the spiritual world.
Finally, instead of meeting the argument, Dugan cops out with a lame
"...doesn't sound much like..." appeal to emotion.
I can only hope Dugan will desist from further such disingenuousness.
Terry
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2100.6 ---------------
From: "Joel A. Wendt" (hermit tiac.net)
Subject: Re: Response to Paulina Leonard.
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 10:10:58 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (200003200259.SAA15734 lists1.best.com)
(200003201823.KAA11459 lists1.best.com)
(200003211741.JAA06931 lists1.best.com)
(200003212030.MAA02990 lists1.best.com) (200003241824.KAA09148 lists1.best.com)
Dear Dan,
As someone with expertise in arts magic (which in themselves are
neither white or black - for whether one is left or right hand path
depends upon moral intention and not on the "science" itself), your
implication below that this exercise is "white magic" is just plain silly.
Once again it shows that you will use any negative or derogatory idea
you can find to tar anthroposophy and waldorf with, regardless of the real
facts or the truth of the matter. Actually, the more you use such tactics
the happier it makes me, because I know that most people have the healthy
mental ability to see the one-sided b.s. you promote, when they encounter
the over-zealous excess your website exudes.
Keep up the good work!
warm regards,
joel
Dan Dugan wrote:
) 3/21/00, paulina leonard wrote:
)
) )Get real here, Dan.
) )
) )You have used the term white magic ritual, so, please, define
) )the term. What do you mean by such an outlandish statement?
) )Additionally, please direct me to one single remedial exercise
) )in "The Extra Lesson" that you consider to be in the category.
) )McAllen's work in this book is about developmental body
) )topology (my term) not magic ritual.
) )
) )Arrguhh!
) )
) )The deficit in public education is missing most exactly the
) )pedagogical insights available in Waldorf!
)
) "The Three-Fold Spiral (from 6 years)
)
) "This is a good exercise for restless, fidgety children; those who
) dream or who have any sleeping difficulties.
)
) "Draw a large -right hand- clock-wise spiral on a large sheet of
) strong paper or card, 20" x 30" (50 com x 75 cm) in a broad red line
) and place it flat on the floor. [illustration of spiral drawing]
)
) "The child sits on a comfortable low chair in front of the paper,
) holding a copper ball or an object--a crystal--in the left hand. The
) right foot starts in the centre of the spiral and moves to the
) outside, the left foot then takes over the ending position of the
) right foot and moves to the centre. At the centre remove the foot.
) Sitting with his feet together, the child leans forward and, with his
) right hand, traces the spiral from the outside to the centre. Repeat
) these three movements 12 times intitially, increasing the exercise
) time to 15 minutes.
)
) "The child may choose with which foot he begins the exercise, but
) movements of left hand remains still, holding the copper ball or
) weighted object. This applies to both right- and left-handed children.
)
) [McAllen, Audrey E. The Extra Lesson: Exercises in movement,
) drawing and painting to help children with difficulties in writing,
) reading and arithmetic. Stourbridge, England: Robinswood Press,
) 1992. p. 53]
)
) -Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2100.7 ---------------
From: "Joel A. Wendt" (hermit tiac.net)
Subject: Re: on Mongolian spots and race - revised
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 11:17:20 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Dear Steve,
I have been watching this thread with interest, and I must admit it often
seems to be confused on both sides (although there just being two sides is an
oversimplification). Here is what I believe Steiner was trying to get people
to notice and think about. This is not drawn from any single lecture, but
more from a sense of the whole of his work.
There are two lines of being in any single human being. There is the
genetic line, or that connection that is carried by the physical bodies, in
that we are a series of ancestors and decendents going far back iin time. The
second line is our own series of individual incarnations, or the "spiritual"
line. Our capacities as individuals, in the sense of abilities, is carried in
the second line, growing over time from incarnation to incarnation.
Each spiritual individuality, incarnates twice in any cultural epoch,
generally once as a female and once as a male. Groups of individuals, often
related by karmic need (built up over many incarnations) tend to travel
together, and may incarnate in one race and culture at one time, and in
another race and culture at another time.
In this way each individual gets a wide variety of experiences in order to
grow and develop as a spiritual personality.
The biological world (as distinct from the spiritual world) is a place of
great diversity. Clearly there are races and cultures (or distinctive general
features of groups of human beings). These distinctive general features play
certain roles (have purposes), in relationship to each other. One such
general feature is that a particular race is biologically younger, and
therefore has general characteristics (more natural vitality, greater physical
prowess) different from another race. Or, in the common language: "White men
can't jump.".
Moreover, Steiner views these matters in such a way, that he describes
various purely spiritual beings as having creative oversight and responsiblity
for some of these general characteristics (folk-spirits etc.). To make the
whole thing somewhat confusing for us, Steiner goes into great detail and
often says things that to the modern ear sound not just silly, but even
racist.
A person raised in the culture of science, the culture of practiced doubt,
has every reason to be skeptical, and perhaps even angry. What actually
surprises and worries me, more than the over-zealousness of some of the
critics of steinerism, is how many supposed anthroposophists are surprised at
the disbelief and mistrust.
Hello people (meaing fellow anthropops and sympathizers)! These views are
seriously out of wack with contemporary understandings of the world. If you
want other people (non-anthros) to find what you are up to valid, you are
going to have to work much harder at it. This is true especially in the West
and in America, where most everybody has a bit of Missouri in them (the show
me State). I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the whole thing doesn't
happen at the level of the discussion of ideas. Only accomplished deeds
matter. Talking the talk doesn't hack it, only walking the walk.
One final word about the above, as regards how I understand Steiner. I
don't believe or disbelive these ideas. My own work is very much a
disciplined attempt to understand social existence, and in that activity I
have yet to find facts which contradict Steiner's general picture (details
aside). When I take hold of the social world with my thinking, its
characteristic processes are entirely consistent with Steiner's indications.
Now if someone says, well Joel, tell us about this in detail, I would have
to say: You know very well that human social existence is very complicated,
and since I have written a couple megabytes about these problems, you will
have to make yourself familiar with my work, which is available on my website,
and not pretend that on a e-mail list any genuinely serious discussion is
possible. There are people who actually read me and send me messages and have
discussions with me based on going to the trouble to read my works.
warm regards,
joel
the narrow gate: http://www.tiac.net/users/hermit/index.html
Steve Premo wrote:
) Dang, I screwed up. Here it is again:
)
) On 24 Mar 2000, at 20:04, debra harvey wrote:
)
) ) [Diana]
) )
) ) )It's not different if your answer to "why" a person has a Mongolian
) ) )spot, for instance, is that they have different spirituality or life
) ) )forces! If you mean "why" in a scientific sense (such as your alluding
) ) )to findings about melanin re: skin color), I'd have no problem, but
) ) )this gets sort of muddy since anthroposophists consider their "why"
) ) )questions to be "scientific" in a "spiritual scientific" sense.
) )
) ) [Harve]
) )
) ) One man's science is another man's religion.
)
) Yes, Harve, but only if one defines "science" and "religion" in ways other
) than the way they are generally defined by, say, scientists and
) theologists.
)
) Words mean something, and "science" and "religion" mean different things.
) It is only by defining "science" in a non-mainstream way that
) Anthroposophy can claim to be science.
)
) This started with Terry Boardman's question:
)
) )Why, for you, do those of East Asian origin, and only they have the eyes
) ) they do? Why do they have the Mongolian Spot? Why does blond hair exist
) ) almost only in cultures of European origin?
)
) Now, I thought he was implying that those physical characteristics reflect
) a spiritual difference between East Asian people and Europeans, that is,
) that those people are fundamentally different from us in a spiritual way,
) and that this difference is reflected in these physical characteristics.
) Apparently Lisa thought so too, so she asked:
)
) ) Terry, please tell me, WHAT possible spiritual meanings does the shape
) ) of an East Asian person's eyes have? Or the Mongolian spot -- this is
) ) not the first time you have mentioned the so-called Mongolian spot
) ) (which for those who do not know is a small, bruise-colored splotch of
) ) pigmented skin found on many Asian people's torsos or
) ) backsides/buttocks at birth. These spots generally fade as the person
) ) grows. My daughter from China had a large Mongolian spot on her right
) ) flank, and it has disappeared almost completely now that she is 5 years
) ) old.)
) )
) ) Pray tell, Terry, what does having such a spot mean? While you're at
) ) it, what does it mean that people from Scandinavia are generally
) ) fair-haired and light-eyed, and that those whose origins come from
) ) below the equator in Africa have dark skin (lots of melanin) ???
)
) I jumped in and asked Terry to answer this as well. So far, he has
) declined to do so, and we're still waiting to hear from Terry about this.
)
) I agree with Diana that it is racist to ascribe spiritual meanings to the
) physical differences between the races. Anthroposophists might say it is
) not racist unless one feels that one race is superior; rather, it is a
) legitimate scientific inquiry. What do you think?
)
) Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
) "Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carbonata descendum pantorum."
) (A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.)
) http://members.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2100.8 ---------------
From: paulina leonard (pkleonard sprintmail.com)
Subject: Re: Response to Paulina Leonard.
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 13:44:57 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
References: (200003200259.SAA15734 lists1.best.com)
(200003201823.KAA11459 lists1.best.com)
(200003211741.JAA06931 lists1.best.com)
(200003212030.MAA02990 lists1.best.com) (200003241824.KAA09148 lists1.best.com)
Dan Dugan wrote:
)
) 3/21/00, paulina leonard wrote:
)
) )Get real here, Dan.
) )
) )You have used the term white magic ritual, so, please, define
) )the term. What do you mean by such an outlandish statement?
) )Additionally, please direct me to one single remedial exercise
) )in "The Extra Lesson" that you consider to be in the category.
) )McAllen's work in this book is about developmental body
) )topology (my term) not magic ritual.
) )
) )Arrguhh!
) )
) )The deficit in public education is missing most exactly the
) )pedagogical insights available in Waldorf!
)
) "The Three-Fold Spiral (from 6 years)
)
) "This is a good exercise for restless, fidgety children; those who
) dream or who have any sleeping difficulties.
)
) "Draw a large -right hand- clock-wise spiral on a large sheet of
) strong paper or card, 20" x 30" (50 com x 75 cm) in a broad red line
) and place it flat on the floor. [illustration of spiral drawing]
)
) "The child sits on a comfortable low chair in front of the paper,
) holding a copper ball or an object--a crystal--in the left hand. The
) right foot starts in the centre of the spiral and moves to the
) outside, the left foot then takes over the ending position of the
) right foot and moves to the centre. At the centre remove the foot.
) Sitting with his feet together, the child leans forward and, with his
) right hand, traces the spiral from the outside to the centre. Repeat
) these three movements 12 times intitially, increasing the exercise
) time to 15 minutes.
)
) "The child may choose with which foot he begins the exercise, but
) movements of left hand remains still, holding the copper ball or
) weighted object. This applies to both right- and left-handed children.
)
) [McAllen, Audrey E. The Extra Lesson: Exercises in movement,
) drawing and painting to help children with difficulties in writing,
) reading and arithmetic. Stourbridge, England: Robinswood Press,
) 1992. p. 53]
Dear Dan,
You still did not give me your definition of the term
white magic and I am interested in knowing. Sincerely
interested.
Also, given the above being your response of an example
of McAllen white magic ritual, then I guess, then, when
the Fencing Coach at our Greek Magnet High School here
requires foil practice of so many minutes of clock-wise
spiraling, then lunge and/or so many minutes counter-clock
wise spiraling, then lunge, etc., he, too is involved in
white magic ritual?
How about swim practice? Is the coach practicng white
magic when he says do twenty minutes left-side strokes,
then another twenty minutes right side strokes?
Such repetitive action of the limbs combined with thinking
about what one is doing could not possibly have to do with
anything involving the developemtn of neuron pathways in the
brain, right?
If I'm following your logic then I suppose it is not much
of a leap to draw the conclusion that dyslexia surely must be
a result of various kinds of black magic rituals. :-)
Paulina
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2100.9 ---------------
From: "Alan S. Fine MD" (asf peakpeak.com)
Subject: Re: on Mongolian spots and race - revised
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 12:52:56 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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References: (200003242042.MAA01579 lists1.best.com) (200003251612.IAA23864 lists1.best.com)
. One such
) general feature is that a particular race is biologically younger, and
) therefore has general characteristics (more natural vitality, greater
physical
) prowess) different from another race. Or, in the common language: "White
men
) can't jump.".
I think it is racist to say one group has more natural vitality than
another. You use the word general, and it is when you generalize that you
start treading on racist territory.
)
) Moreover, Steiner views these matters in such a way, that he describes
) various purely spiritual beings as having creative oversight and
responsiblity
) for some of these general characteristics (folk-spirits etc.). To make
the
) whole thing somewhat confusing for us, Steiner goes into great detail and
) often says things that to the modern ear sound not just silly, but even
) racist.
I agree here. But I think the modern ear is a better judge than the ear of
pre WWII Germany and imperialist Europe. We have grown wiser. The 20th
century has brought us a wonderful new way of looking at people. Listen
with your modern ear.
)
) Hello people (meaing fellow anthropops and sympathizers)! These views
are
) seriously out of wack with contemporary understandings of the world. If
you
) want other people (non-anthros) to find what you are up to valid, you are
) going to have to work much harder at it. This is true especially in the
West
) and in America, where most everybody has a bit of Missouri in them (the
show
) me State). I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the whole thing
doesn't
) happen at the level of the discussion of ideas. Only accomplished deeds
) matter. Talking the talk doesn't hack it, only walking the walk.
I appreciate the efforts of the Anthroposophists on this list to explain why
Steiner is not racist. To me Steiner inherits major threads of a pre WWII
intellectual racist occult visions, the most famous of which are those of
Gobineau, Blavatsky, and Chamberlain. One of the legacies of these visions,
is providing a spiritual inspiration for Nazism. The Anthroposophists who
work hard to separate Steiner from his racist forbears and cousins are doing
work that is vital for the movement. The only problem is that Steiner
infallability appears so strong within the movement, that efforts to rethink
what he says, without repudiating some of it, will never be completely
comforting to me.
Alan Fine
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2100.10 ---------------
From: "Joel A. Wendt" (hermit tiac.net)
Subject: Re: on Mongolian spots and race - revised
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 19:21:55 -0500
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References: (200003242042.MAA01579 lists1.best.com) (200003251612.IAA23864 lists1.best.com) (200003251956.LAA20332 lists1.best.com)
Alan S. Fine MD wrote:
) I think it is racist to say one group has more natural vitality than
) another. You use the word general, and it is when you generalize that you
) start treading on racist territory.
Dear Alan,
No, the real question is whether it is true. If the existence of the
"races" (distinctive general features of groups of human beings) has occured in
such a way that one genetic line is "newer" than the other, it easily can follow
that certain characteristics can arise because of this fact (youthfulness of the
genetic inheritance). This has nothing whatsoever to do with the soul-flaw
"racism", which is an attitude that pre-judges a single human being on the basis
of some general characteristic (whether physical or cultural)
Now I didn't say that this idea was either true or false, merely that this
is the way it appeared to me that Steiner was often speaking of, namely
distinctive general characteristics. Since he made those remarks in a context
where it was clear that he saw the physical organism as a "garment" for the
individual spirit., he couldn't have been pre-judging any individual human being
(within his "paradigm").
If it is factually true (and no one of us is in a position to know that one
way or the other), then it is true on the level of saying tigers have orange and
black stripes. On the other hand, when, as critics have noted, these ideas get
taught in schools (which is not true in general in waldorf), then that teaching
can become the basis for creating racist attitudes. But this is because of a
misapplication of something Steiner said, not because the fact is inherently
racist.
Like the critics, I am offended when a waldorf teacher takes something
Steiner said and teaches it in his/her class as a fact. There is no
justification for this, although I can understand how it comes about.
Teachers in public schools teach the basic Western cultural values, without
really critically thinking about any of them, because that is precisely how a
culture transmits its point of view from one generation to the next. If we were
to investigate public schools under the same microscope applied to waldorf on
this list, the same (in kind) horror strories would emerge.
We think our current age is somehow more sensitive, but human nature on this
level doesn't change all that much. Just ask the lastest wave of immigrants.
Where I work (a light industrial concern), we have about one quarter recent
immigrants from Brazil. The other day I was sitting at a table where two older
women were going on about how people who don't like this country should just
shut up, and how they can also just go back home. Not much different from the
garbage I grew up with in the '50s.
The danger on this list is another matter. Basically we have people who are
disatisfied with waldorf, mostly for a variety of understandable reasons. Now
one of the common things which people in groups do, when they have some other
group they don't like, is to generalize and to seek more faults in order to
further justify the abuse already being heaped on the "enemy". It is possible
to watch the "diseased gossip" grow as the various speakers support each others
prejudices and dislikes. They say: "see, these folks are really nasty, why they
are: true believers who can't think for themselves, are cult-like, and guru
hypnotised by a nazi creator and racist bigot who believes he talks to spirits."
Basically I don't see much difference between the gossip at that table at
work, and what often goes on here on this list. (yes, there are exceptions,
even some threads where the basic sanity remains always high).
This is especially bizarre when you consider how often the "god" science is
evoked. "Where's the hard evidence?" is said frequently. Yet people form all
kinds of opinions about things they actually can't know anything about and argue
endlessly back and forth with not much else to go on than the presumptions and
assumptions living in the background.
Just consider this one phrase, which I have often read on this list: "I
suspect...". Now what the heck does that mean? Clearly it is a guess, if not
just a prejudice. But following this lead in phrase will be a judgment, a
supposition as if a certain thing was true. Moreover, this usually (but not
always) goes to motive. The speaker using the terms "I suspect" is guessing (or
inventing) a motive in someone else, that fits nicely and conviently with the
already existing point of view.
There is no way to know another's motives, something they often do not know
themselves. But we like to invent these things, because then it justifies our
dislikes. It really is wonderous and scary to read some of the sentences and
the qualifying phrases in many of these e-mails. Here we are on a list where
"hard evidence" is so often demanded, yet any hairbrained opinion is a go, as
long as it fits in with the anti-waldorf group speak.
Now Alan, you are a psychiatrist aren't you? Don't you notice these
things?
warm regards,
joel
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2100 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2101 --------------
001 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Black Crayons and Stereotypes
002 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Reincarnation and materialism [to Bob]
003 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Response to Paulina Leonard.
004 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: Reincarnation and materialism (Terry/Bob)
005 - Chand.Desai mcmail.vander - Re: on Mongolian spots and race
006 - Chand.Desai mcmail.vander - Re: on Mongolian spots and race [to Chand]
007 - Chand.Desai mcmail.vander - RE: Black Crayons and Stereotypes
008 - Chand.Desai mcmail.vander - Re: Reincarnation and materialism [to Chand]
009 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Reincarnation and materialism (Terry/Bob)
010 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - RE: Black Crayons and Stereotypes (Luke)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2101.1 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Black Crayons and Stereotypes
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 20:15:38 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
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charset="windows-1252"
[Bob Tolz]
)
) ) If you want your children to use art as symbolism,
) that's )fine with me.
) )I'd prefer them to receive sufficient guidance to )develop
) some technique
) )and artistry.
)
[Diana]
) Bob, your points are well taken, or would be if we were talking about
) perhaps college-level art instruction rather than children's
) drawings. As
) usual I'm talking about what is actually done in Waldorf
) classrooms
[Snip]
) squelch this impulse. If you want to turn them into artists,
) at this tender
) age, sure I guess you need more sophisticated techniques.
) (And you will wind
) up, surprise surprise, with behavior problems during art period.)
)
[Bob Tolz]
I'm sorry to hear that the classes you observed had behavior
problems from being taught more reality-based techniques at a "tender" age.
Bob Tolz
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2101.2 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Reincarnation and materialism [to Bob]
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 20:15:36 -0500
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) ) ) ) ) [Terry]
) ) ) ) )
) ) ) ) ) )Those who "believe" in the cosmic heat death prescribed
) ) ) by the Second Law
) ) ) ) ) )of Thermodynamics must come to terms with the notion
) ) ) that all of human
) ) ) ) ) )love and culture is totally meaningless and pointless.
) )
) ) [Bob Tolz]
) )
) ) No they don't.
[Terry]
) Bob, I said "they must" not they "do". Did you mean, "they
) don't have to"?
[Bob Tolz]
Correct. People who accept the theory of cosmic heat death as being
plausible do not have to come to terms with the notion of meaningless,
because I don't think meaninglessness is necessarily the natural result of
that theory.
Pray tell why you might think that meaningless *is* the required
result if one does not believe in reincarnation.
[Bob Tolz]
) ) The fact that the universe may descend into a
) coldness billions of
) ) years from now does not make me feel that human love and
) culture is totally
) ) meaningless and pointless.
[Terry]
) May I ask why?
[Bob Tolz]
I find life, love and culture meaningful by *bringing* meaning into
life. How any individual "brings" meaning to life is, quite obviously, an
individual matter. I don't wait for meaning to come to me. What happens to
the universe billions of years from now is totally irrelevant to this
approach.
[Bob Tolz]
)
) ) or you conclude that one who accepts such a prospect
) ) must necessarily despair. I submit to you that acceptance of that
) ) prediction does not necessarily lead to despair or a
) conclusion that human
[Terry]
) see my above comment. But that comment is predicated on the assumption
) that there is continuity of existence before birth and after
) death. As this
) is not the case for materialists, I am simply interested to
) know how materialists
) cope with the ramifications of their position if indeed they
) think about it.
[Bob Tolz]
Well, perhaps you might call me a materialist if I do not believe in
reincarnation, though neither do I disbelieve in it. In any case, I do not
think that it is necessary to believe in reincarnation to find deep meaning
in life, even if one concludes that it's likely the universe will suffer a
physical death.
[Terry]
) Without digging up those quotations you
) mention, could you outline a couple of other responses based on a
) materialist paradigm for me to mull over? If you think this
) is getting off-topic
) feel free to mail me personally. If you'd rather not, that's OK.
[Bob Tolz]
It's hard to respond because I don't know what your definition of a
materialist paradigm is. I'm not an academic student of philosophy and
religion. I can only tell you what I think and feel.
) ) [Bob Tolz]
) ) One's attitude can be chosen independently of an
) uncertain future.
) ) Besides, what's so gloomy about the universe winking out
) billions of years
) ) from now? I don't expect to be in the audience for that event.
[Terry]
)
) Erm...may I ask why not? And why do you think you will be in
) the "audience"?
) You're on stage, mate, as we all are. If there is an
) audience, it is surely one of invisible beings.
[Bob Tolz]
I'm not following you. I said I do *not* expect to be in the
audience at the last moment of the universe. My life expectancy doesn't go
that far into the future, at least not according to the Metropolitan Life
Insurance tables.
Maybe there are invisible beings in the audience. Maybe not. I've
not met one yet.
)
) )
) ) [quoting from Eddington]
) ) ) But if your theory is found
) ) ) to be against the Second Law of Thermodynamics I can give
) you no hope;
) ) ) there is nothing for it but to collapse in the deepest
) humiliation."
) )
) ) [Bob Tolz]
) )
) ) I'll go up against Eddington on this one any day.
) The proper word
) ) is not "humiliation," it's "humility." I find it much more
) spiritual to
) ) accept my present place in the universe with humility than
) to balk at
) ) scientific theory that makes pretty good sense in light of
) the available data.
) )
[Terry]
) Who's baulking? I certainly am not (see my above comment
) about my physical
) body) although I have my doubts about scientists' timeframes,
) both in the future and in the past.
[Bob Tolz]
Eddington was certainly balking. You've now made it clear that you
are not, though your prior comments made me think that you didn't like it
one bit.
[Terry]
) I don't understand how you are using the word 'spiritual'
) here. Could you clarify?
[Bob Tolz]
I use the word "spiritual" in the sense of a relationship with that
which transcends the individual; a relationship which notes the real link
that we have with each other, regardless of opinion, economic status,
intelligence, race, religion, sex, age, national origin, etc.; a
relationship with what some people would refer to as the Divine. The term
"spiritual," as used in this sense, does not require the belief in
reincarnation or in a hierarchy of non-material entities. Ask me again next
year and I'm quite confident I'll give you a slightly different answer.
[Bob Tolz]
) ) I submit to you, Terry, that in rejecting a
) generally accepted
) ) scientific theory such as the Second Law of Thermodynamics for
) ) philosophical/spiritual reasons, both Russell and Eddington
) displayed that
) ) the thinker did not think enough about how to transcend and
) reconcile the
) ) apparent paradoxes between theory and thought.
) )
)
[Terry]
) Bob, Russell and Eddington didn't *reject* the Second Law -
) they accepted it.
) I quoted them as examples of people who honestly accepted it,
) not as rejecters.
[Bob Tolz]
Please forgive me, I mistated the point.
I should have said: "in falling into despair for
philosophical/spiritual reasons following acceptance of the Second Law of
Thermodynamics, both Russell and Eddington displayed that the thinker did
not think enough about how to transcend and reconcile the apparent paradoxes
between theory and thought.
Bob Tolz
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2101.3 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Response to Paulina Leonard.
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 20:22:58 -0500
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[Paulina]
) Also, given the above being your response of an example
) of McAllen white magic ritual, then I guess, then, when
) the Fencing Coach at our Greek Magnet High School here
) requires foil practice of so many minutes of clock-wise
) spiraling, then lunge and/or so many minutes counter-clock
) wise spiraling, then lunge, etc., he, too is involved in
) white magic ritual?
)
) How about swim practice? Is the coach practicng white
) magic when he says do twenty minutes left-side strokes,
) then another twenty minutes right side strokes?
[Bob Tolz]
Don't forget the immortal "Wax on. Wax off."
Bob Tolx
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2101.4 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Reincarnation and materialism (Terry/Bob)
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 04:00:54 GMT
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[Terry]
)I am simply interested to know how materialists cope with the
) )ramifications of their position if indeed they think about it.
Terry, I don't think I qualify exactly for your stereotype of the embittered
"materialist," but I'd be happy to point out a few ways you could "cope"
with the idea that our solar system may be extinguished eons from now:
Decide that love and culture are meaningful, anyway.
Get up and go to work. (Or tomorrow's Sunday, sleep in.) Enjoy whatever time
you have with your family, take your children to the park and get some fresh
air. Read a good book or listen to your favorite music.
See if that helps.
Diana
) ) love and culture are totally meaningless and pointless.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2101.5 ---------------
From: Chand.Desai mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Subject: Re: on Mongolian spots and race
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 22:22:09 -0600
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[Alan]:
)Debra, the issue is not only what questions are you asking but why are you
)asking them. If you are asking a question about differing incidences of
)illness in order to guide doctors in medical assessments, it is not racist.
)If you are asking the same question to demonstrate a difference in "life
)forces", or spirituality it is racist in my view. If you are asking
)questions about racial (not cultural) differences out of simple curiosity
)with no other goal in mind than to find differences, that, in my view is
)also racist.
I guess I'd have to disagree with this. In my view, the feeling behind the
questions is more important that the reason for asking. When my wife and I were
visiting India, many people in rural areas - and not just children - would come
up to her and touch her clothes and stare at her because she is blonde and blue
eyed. Neither of us considered this curiosity racist. Curiosity is a human
trait and, in my opinion, not racist. To stifle curiosity for fear of racist
intent is in my view (again) a tragedy. If the docs are asking questions about
differing incidences of illness and they work for an insurance company, they may
not be racists but their data may be used for racist purposes.
Chand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2101.6 ---------------
From: Chand.Desai mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Subject: Re: on Mongolian spots and race [to Chand]
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 23:13:11 -0600
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[Terry]:
)Chand, would you agree that the binoculars of nature and nurture
)which the media are ever encouraging us to see questions of human
)behaviour through are but another example of an interminable dualism
)which still drags at us? Are not "nature and nurture" just another
)way of saying human life is conditioned only by materialistic factors
)*outside* the human individual - behaviourism with another name?
I am just a simple biologist so don't ask me about behavioralism. That is
Alan's province. I agree that the "nature and nurture" concepts are materialist
in the way that you describe them. The debate is usually framed as nature
versus nurture - i.e. which is the controlling influence. So far, these two
factors explain things well enough for biologists.
As for "interminable dualism", I feel that humans have a propensity to think
dualistically. Night and day, yang and yin, either or, etc. Quite conceivably
this type of thinking may limit the kind of questions we ask and solutions that
we come to. On the other hand, it has also engendered, for good and bad, a
tremendous ability to manipulate the material world.
[Terry]:
)Nature and nurture mean the concept of a human individuality that
)exists before birth and after death has no place, wouldn't you say?
)Everything that I am is explained either by my genes - from my parents -
)or as a result of my parental and social upbringing. "I" am thus irrelevant
)in explaining who "I" am.
If you want to postulate other influences that forge the "I", then I think you
will run afoul of Peter & Stenger's list of extraordinary claims. At any rate,
such influences would be very difficult to test using standard methods.
[Terry]:
)This is why reincarnation is such a radical
)thought in today's context; it completely undermines the dominance of
)the materialistic nature-nurture dualism. Hollywood has made films about
)a great many subjects, endless films about ghosts for example. Safe stuff -
)they don't threaten the paradigm. Reincarnation stories would fit very
)well with what the cinema is capable of, yet how many films about
)reincarnation have there been? Maybe, just maybe, the 21st century will
)see more.
Only radical in the West, and not so radical in California. Reincarnation
needn't undermine the dominance of
the materialistic nature-nurture dualism. Only if you remember these past lives
and they influence your development. On the other hand, I think that ghosts
would bump up against Peter & Stenger's list.
Chand
Chand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2101.7 ---------------
From: Chand.Desai mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Subject: RE: Black Crayons and Stereotypes
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 23:30:07 -0600
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[Diana]:
)(In a related post Chand sneers that I am talking about cartoons;
Me, sneer? How can you tell? Clairvoyance or projection (or is that too
dualistic)? You wrote "It's just symbolism; a common language." That sounds
like cartoons to me.
)I am just
)not interested in whether they draw cartoons or produce sophisticated
)artwork. This is elementary school we are talking about! -- in fact,
)kindergarten and preschool, since the original issue was withholding the
)black crayon and I believe the black crayon is usually made available by
)first or second grade.
This is an improvement. As I recall, in the original discussion of this issue,
it was claimed that black crayons were introduced in the fourth grade or so. I
am not concerned with children producing sophisticated artwork - just creating
their own instead of trying to reproduce pokemon or whatever.
Chand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2101.8 ---------------
From: Chand.Desai mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Subject: Re: Reincarnation and materialism [to Chand]
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 23:42:20 -0600
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[Chand]:
))... Who says something has to be eternal & everlasting to have a point or
)) meaning. We all die, so even those who don't believe in heat death have to
come
)) to terms with their own mortality and limited impact upon the universe.
[Terry]:
)It's not a question of whether one thinks in terms of 'limited impact' Chand,
)but of 'no impact'.
Are you being intentionally polemical, Terry? Why the absolute? You have hear
of the idea that a butterflies wings beating in Brazil can (in theory) lead to a
hurricane elsewhere? From a materialistic viewpoint, perhaps all those TV shows
we beam out into space are like a lot of cosmic butterfly wing beats. Have you
seen Galaxy Quest, by the way? If you were ever into the original Star Trek, it
is hilarious. I thought of it today after my wife put a long scratch in the car
while getting out of a parking place.
I feel that we all have to come to terms with our own limited impact no matter
what our philosophy. In our cities - how many people know us? How many of us
will make it into a history book, or write a book that has any persistence in
human history? Even if we have eternal souls, ours would be one of billions -
if not more if there are more beings with souls elsewhere in the universe. How
much impact can one soul have? About the same as one person, in my book.
Chand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2101.9 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Reincarnation and materialism (Terry/Bob)
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 07:11:15 -0500
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[Diana]
)
) Terry, I don't think I qualify exactly for your stereotype of
) the embittered
) "materialist," but I'd be happy to point out a few ways you
) could "cope"
) with the idea that our solar system may be extinguished eons from now:
)
) Decide that love and culture are meaningful, anyway.
)
) Get up and go to work. (Or tomorrow's Sunday, sleep in.)
) Enjoy whatever time
) you have with your family, take your children to the park and
) get some fresh
) air. Read a good book or listen to your favorite music.
[Bob Tolz]
I'm certainly with you on this, Diana!
Bob Tolz
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2101.10 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Black Crayons and Stereotypes (Luke)
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 13:35:56 GMT
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)[Diana]
)I don't think using cultural conventions, such as drawing roads )black, is
)"divorced from reality." It's just symbolism; a common )language. It makes
)communication possible.
[Luke]
) And keeps it at the level of imprecise symbolic communication. I )guess
)it depends on how much accurate communication you want to have.
I'm also responding to Bob Tolz on this. I think this is a fallacy, this
idea that there is a way to get it "right," communicate "precisely" -- that
we could ever agree even on what color roads are -- that one of us has to be
"right" and the other "wrong" -- that the goal of art instruction (or any
aspect of education) is for the kids to get it "right." I don't think this
is the purpose of language, art, literature, any form of human expression,
or education. It is all "imprecise symbolic communication."
) If you let your child learn that roads are black
Real world again. "Let" him learn that roads are black? How am I going to
stop him from "learning that roads are black?" (or at least often
represented as black)? Never show him a picture book? Get worked up when he
draws a black road and make him feel bad? (Oh, right, withhold the black
crayon).
[Diana]
)It's no more divorced from reality than language itself -- the letters have
)only an abitrary relationship to the sounds,
[Luke]
) At best, initially it was arbitrary (linguists might disagree
) )completely). Today, the sounds and letters have specific )relationships
)("p" never sounds like an "A")
No. The relationships are exactly as arbitrary now as they ever were, and
exactly as specific. The symbols themselves (not their arbitrariness) change
over time, again by consensus, not by somebody referring to a standard
somewhere of what's "right" and making corrections along the way (as, for
instance, Sarina did by leading her son out to look at the road and correct
his idea of what the proper color was).
You seem to think our symbol system has gotten *less* arbitrary over time,
but you're just acknowledging the fact that our symbols work for us, however
imprecisely.
[Diana]
)and the words have only an arbitrary relationship to what we all
) )understand them to represent.
[Luke]
)Nowhere is this more evident than on this list
The relationship of words to what they represent is no more or or less
arbitrary than the relation of letter symbols to sounds, and no more or less
arbitrary now than at any time in the past.
[Diana]
)Use of these conventions isn't "wrong."
[Luke]
)Sure. It is wrong to spell "cat" d-o-g.
That would be disregarding, rather than using, the conventions. It is not
wrong to spell "cat" c-a-t. But why is it right? Who says any of those
letters make the sounds that we would recognize as making up the word "cat"
when we hear it spoken? Convention. Mutual agreement. If you'd like to
dispense with this, good luck coming up with a better system.
A good example, actually. In first grade, you teach kids to spell cat c-a-t.
If they draw a cat, you admire it, even if it is colored purple with polka
dots and has five legs (or, in my son's case, wheels). If they write a poem
about a cat, you admire that too, probably send it to grandma, perhaps
offering spelling consultation. You don't try to get them to be bold
literary innovators by explaining that the relationship between the letter
"c" and the "k" sound which "c" makes in "cat" is arbitrary, or encourage
them to dispense with conventions before they've even learned them.
[Diana]
)We couldn't communicate without them.
)[Luke]
)Some might say we can't communicate with them either.
Yes, that's true. A paradox! Nobody has come up with a better system,
though. Kindergarteners and grade school children are a little young to be
expected to grapple with this paradox, don't you think?
[Diana]
)Relating this to Waldorf, children should not be prevented from )learning
)or using the symbolism of their culture
)Luke takes this "teach them to go against the dominant culture"
)position too when he insists that because lines aren't really there )in
)"nature" children should't be allowed to represent things with lines, even
)if their use is common currency.
[Luke]
)I don't believe I ever said "teach them to go against the dominant
) )culture" that you have in quotes.
No, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have appeared to have been quoting you. I put
that in quotes to sum up how the argument appears to me.
[Luke]
)Neither did I say that I "insist that because lines aren't really )there in
)"nature" children should't be allowed to represent things )with lines, even
)if their use is common currency.
No, you didn't, but you haven't explained how your program can be
implemented otherwise.
)The entire paragraph is a polemical fantasy of your imagination )(wishing
)that I had said these things). It's pathetic (and quite )common for you).
No. I've seen these things implemented in a Waldorf classroom, and I wish
nobody had said them so that nobody would be implementing them.
) What I did say is that I believe that there is great value in )*not over
)emphasizing* the use of line/symbolic conventions.
So who's "over emphasizing" it? Do you see non-Waldorf teachers say to their
students, "Make lines! Don't draw big swatches of color! You must make
lines! And don't leave out symbolic conventions!" This is what children *do*
if not manipulated.
Diana
______________________________________________________
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--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2101 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2102 --------------
001 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: on Mongolian spots and race - revised
002 - "Sarina McDonald" (pandor - RE: Black Crayons and Stereotypes
003 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: on Mongolian spots and race - revised
004 - Terry Boardman (terry.boa - Re: Reincarnation and materialism (Diana/Bob)
005 - "Alan S. Fine MD" (asf pe - Re: on Mongolian spots and race
006 - "Alan S. Fine MD" (asf pe - Re: on Mongolian spots and race - revised
007 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Head of French Parliamentary Comm. sentenced for calling A
008 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Reincarnation and materialism (Diana/Bob)
009 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: on Mongolian spots and race - revised
010 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Re: Head of French Parliamentary Comm. sentenced for calling
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2102.1 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: on Mongolian spots and race - revised
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 00:55:01 -0800
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References: (200003242042.MAA01579 lists1.best.com)
(200003251612.IAA23864 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200003251612.IAA23864 lists1.best.com)
3/25/00, Joel A. Wendt wrote:
) Each spiritual individuality, incarnates twice in any cultural epoch,
)generally once as a female and once as a male. Groups of individuals, often
)related by karmic need (built up over many incarnations) tend to travel
)together, and may incarnate in one race and culture at one time, and in
)another race and culture at another time.
Don't you love it when Anthroposophists quote Steiner's dogma as if
it's fact? Wake up, Joel, this is the -critics- list.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2102.2 ---------------
From: "Sarina McDonald" (pandora aa.net)
Subject: RE: Black Crayons and Stereotypes
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 10:01:23 -0800
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Maybe this subject will die a quiet death soon, but I must add another
.02...
[Diana]
)I think this is a fallacy, this
)idea that there is a way to get it "right," communicate "precisely" -- that
)we could ever agree even on what color roads are -- that one of us has to
be
)"right" and the other "wrong" -- that the goal of art instruction (or any
)aspect of education) is for the kids to get it "right."
[Sarina]
Do you not see any value in helping a child hone his critical thinking
skills by teaching him to question assumptions? For me, this exercise was
more about helping my son Will to learn to verify information, not about
correcting his "wrong" artwork. And that is exactly what this idea that
roads are black is - an assumption. That's why I said he "has learned a
couple new ways of looking at the world."
In his current school, the Learning Workshop, they call this kind of
hypothesis verification "thinking like a scientist." (To me this is a
perfect example of 'arts-based education,' where art is entwined with
academic principles - in this case, science).
The point I am trying to make here is NOT that Waldorf schools are doing
things "right" when they withhold black crayons, but that it was my exposure
to Waldorf that "inspired" this particular exersize with my son.
And as for conventions, you make them sound so... so... neccessary. And
while many of them are - and I realize you are simply making a point about
art instruction - thank goodness that not everyone accepted the "convention"
that the Earth was flat!
[Diana]
)In first grade, you teach kids to spell cat c-a-t.
)If they draw a cat, you admire it, even if it is colored purple with polka
)dots and has five legs (or, in my son's case, wheels). If they write a poem
)about a cat, you admire that too, probably send it to grandma, perhaps
)offering spelling consultation. You don't try to get them to be bold
)literary innovators by explaining that the relationship between the letter
)"c" and the "k" sound which "c" makes in "cat" is arbitrary, or encourage
)them to dispense with conventions before they've even learned them.
I apologize, Diana - I may be misunderstanding you - but you are wrong about
a few things here.
You should NOT "offer spelling consultation" unless asked by the child
first. And yes, you DO allow children to dispense with conventions before
they've learned them - invented spelling is crucial to a child's learning to
love writing. Corrections at this young age can spoil their 'taste' for
writing by making them feel like failures - as well as affect their sense of
self-esteem (much like the "right way" art instruction you've described must
do).
The point of early writing attempts is for the child to try out written
communication and expression and to feel comfortable with it. At first, you
want them to feel successful and thereby become self-motivated. Children
also should be given the opportunity to self-correct as they go along with
their own writing - and they DO self-correct most of the time. (Read:
Learning All the Time, by John Holt.) They often pick up those conventions
on their own, and should be given the opportunity to do so before anyone
jumps in to correct them. (I am referring to the age group you specified -
1st grade. I'm sure by 2nd kids probably should be learning some spelling
conventions by direct instruction.)
Unlike my son Will's black road - which was only under discussion - his
writing, once brought to me, is completed and nothing should be given but
appreciation. He is aware that there are "ways" to spell certain things, and
when he wants to know one, he asks. But nothing should ever be said to
detract from his accomplishment in getting his thoughts down on paper, even
if I can barely read what he has written.
For example, last week he did bring "a song" to me. I had seen it lying
around, but didn't even recognize what it said because the spelling was SO
inventive! But he read it to me, and I was truly impressed with his
thinking:
"a TRY TO
U il PLAT iT
iN EHT SOYL
i HAV A TRY"
(Translation:
A tree to you
I'll plant it in the soil
I have a tree)
Aw... (proud mama smile)
The fact that he misspelled several words he used to "know" didn't phase
me - HE could read what he wrote, and that was days later. The next time he
reads a book, he will recognize the word "tree" and perhaps a time or two
after that, he will remember to write it that way as well.
The point of all this rambling, Diana, is that children grasp conventions -
whether they be social or language or whatever - all on their own except in
very rare cases. Nobody is "preventing" them from this learning by
attempting to help them learn other ways of thinking.
It is the "thinking outside the box" stuff they need help with.
---------------------------
Sarina McDonald
pandora aa.net
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2102.3 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: on Mongolian spots and race - revised
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 20:48:14 +0200
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References: (200003242042.MAA01579 lists1.best.com)
(200003251612.IAA23864 lists1.best.com) (200003261742.JAA22505 lists1.best.com)
Dan wrote:
) Wake up, Joel, this is the -critics- list.
Dan, should this be taken to mean that you want to say that you only
want to have members on the list who agree with you in your opinion of
waldorf educataion and anthroposophy, as it is reflected on your site,
and not hear other opinions or the members to take part in other
aspects of anthroposophy that can not be found on your site?
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2102.4 ---------------
From: Terry Boardman (terry.boardman cableinet.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Reincarnation and materialism (Diana/Bob)
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 20:31:00 +0100
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waldorf-critics-errors lists.best.com wrote:
) From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
) Subject: RE: Reincarnation and materialism (Terry/Bob)
) Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 07:11:15 -0500
)
) [Diana]
) )
) ) Terry, I don't think I qualify exactly for your stereotype of
) ) the embittered
) ) "materialist," but I'd be happy to point out a few ways you
) ) could "cope"
) ) with the idea that our solar system may be extinguished eons from now:
) )
) ) Decide that love and culture are meaningful, anyway.
) )
) ) Get up and go to work. (Or tomorrow's Sunday, sleep in.)
) ) Enjoy whatever time
) ) you have with your family, take your children to the park and
) ) get some fresh
) ) air. Read a good book or listen to your favorite music.
)
) [Bob Tolz]
) I'm certainly with you on this, Diana!
) Bob Tolz
)
Sorry to disagree with you Diana and Bob, but I can't say
I'm impressed with Diana's suggestion, I guess because I'm
one of those pesky human beings who wants to know what
it's all about - life, the universe, and everything, that is.
Hey, I must have screwed up at 42!
No seriously :-), Diana's suggestion is a mite California Zen isn't it?
Or maybe Diana did actually study under a Zen Master in the
mystic East and sussed out the "before and after -chopping wood
and drawing water" conundrum. The difference between the before
and after is of course that "after", one is some six inches off the ground!
(Just tugging a bit on the old bell-bottomed legs here, you understand)
I would just say it's an essential human condition to want to "know". Just
living, just existing - while it may be OK for short 'time-out' periods -
is not, I submit, what humanity - as distinct from animality - is about.
Some clever folks (Greek philosophers, Indian and Chinese sages and thinkers)
began to grok that one c.600 BC onwards in various parts of Eurasia.
As for Diana's first suggestion above - what's the difference in objective
terms between her suggestion and if I just "decide" that Mongolian spots
are meaningful anyway? If I did, boy, wouldn't I get some stick from Diana?:-)
I think I prefer my thoughts and actions to be related to reality.
By the way, Diana, if you go back and look again at my posts on the
subject, I don't think you'll find I mention any "stereotype of the embittered
materialist", but what you've done is put into the public domain that
Terry has "(his) stereotype of the embittered materialist." I'm not
responsible for any such stereotype. That's your phrase and your
(false) attribution to me. Just to set the record straight folks....
Regards,
Terry
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2102.5 ---------------
From: "Alan S. Fine MD" (asf peakpeak.com)
Subject: Re: on Mongolian spots and race
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 14:32:11 -0700
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----- Original Message -----
From: (Chand.Desai mcmail.vanderbilt.edu)
To: (waldorf-critics lists.best.com)
Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2000 9:22 PM
Subject: Re: on Mongolian spots and race
)
)
) [Alan]:
) )Debra, the issue is not only what questions are you asking but why are
you
) )asking them. If you are asking a question about differing incidences of
) )illness in order to guide doctors in medical assessments, it is not
racist.
) )If you are asking the same question to demonstrate a difference in "life
) )forces", or spirituality it is racist in my view. If you are asking
) )questions about racial (not cultural) differences out of simple curiosity
) )with no other goal in mind than to find differences, that, in my view is
) )also racist.
)
) I guess I'd have to disagree with this. In my view, the feeling behind
the
) questions is more important that the reason for asking. When my wife and
I were
) visiting India, many people in rural areas - and not just children - would
come
) up to her and touch her clothes and stare at her because she is blonde and
blue
) eyed. Neither of us considered this curiosity racist. Curiosity is a
human
) trait and, in my opinion, not racist. To stifle curiosity for fear of
racist
) intent is in my view (again) a tragedy. If the docs are asking questions
about
) differing incidences of illness and they work for an insurance company,
they may
) not be racists but their data may be used for racist purposes.
)
) Chand
I would agree that feelings are a part of "why" someone is looking at racial
differences, and are a factor in detirmining whether an inquiry has racist
overtones. Even when applied with all the love in the world, I still feel
that the Steiner point of view on race, at least as expressed by the
anthroposophists on this list, is inherantly racist.
Alan Fine
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2102.6 ---------------
From: "Alan S. Fine MD" (asf peakpeak.com)
Subject: Re: on Mongolian spots and race - revised
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 16:12:24 -0700
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References: (200003242042.MAA01579 lists1.best.com) (200003251612.IAA23864 lists1.best.com) (200003251956.LAA20332 lists1.best.com) (200003260016.QAA07864 lists1.best.com)
Dear Alan,
)
) No, the real question is whether it is true. If the existence of the
) "races" (distinctive general features of groups of human beings) has
occured in
) such a way that one genetic line is "newer" than the other, it easily can
follow
) that certain characteristics can arise because of this fact (youthfulness
of the
) genetic inheritance).
This indeed is the main point. If it is true, then we all owe you an
apology. If it is not true, then you and other Anthroposophists are
needlessly adhering to concepts which many people would find offensive. The
stakes are high. Personally I think the test for an enlightened approach to
spirituality is whether it is free of this type of conflict. For example
you can say that God created the sunset. Whether others believe that or not
would never create the kinds of conflicts you see on this list. To me
Anthroposphy does not pass the test. It goes way too far. Some of its
precepts are sincerely offensive to others, no matter how they are
explained. The fact that it can offend, means to me it is not the spiritual
path it claims to be.
) There is no way to know another's motives, something they often do not
know
) themselves. But we like to invent these things, because then it justifies
our
) dislikes. It really is wonderous and scary to read some of the sentences
and
) the qualifying phrases in many of these e-mails. Here we are on a list
where
) "hard evidence" is so often demanded, yet any hairbrained opinion is a go,
as
) long as it fits in with the anti-waldorf group speak.
) Now Alan, you are a psychiatrist aren't you? Don't you notice these
) things?
I think the critics display more diversity of opinion than the
Anthroposophists. If you are inviting me to speak as a psychiatrist
(something I've been avoiding for the most part) then I will.
Anthroposophists believe their path is a true one, so it is threatening to
Anthroposophists when others are offended by their beliefs. In order to
contend with threat it is natural to set up defenses, such as dismissing the
critic for being ununenlightened (aka "hasn't done the work" "hairbrained
opinion"), for acting on a personal vendetta, or for responding out of some
mass hysteria, as you imply above. It is psychologically healthier to
contend with criticism when you can experience it as something as legitimate
and as justified as your own point of view, without resorting to various
defensive tactics.
Of course if you are enmeshed in a spiritual path that allows for no other
truth, then that can be a difficult task indeed.
Alan Fine
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2102.7 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Head of French Parliamentary Comm. sentenced for calling Anthroposophy a "sect"
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 02:33:45 +0200
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Detlef on Friday wrote about an article in Le Monde:
) the following appeared in "Le Monde" today and
) A can be found on the DROITS DE l'HOMME SANS FRONTIERES
) website.
I've now translated the article published by Le Monde on Thursday, 23
March, and put it at
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/krit/000323-LeMonde-eng.html
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2102.8 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Reincarnation and materialism (Diana/Bob)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 03:23:17 -0500
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[Terry Boardman]
)
) Sorry to disagree with you Diana and Bob, but I can't say
) I'm impressed with Diana's suggestion, I guess because I'm
) one of those pesky human beings who wants to know what
) it's all about - life, the universe, and everything, that is.
[Bob Tolz]
Hey, I'm one of those pesky human beings who wants to know about
everything, too. So, why does that curiosity make it difficult for you to
find meaning in the small details of daily life even if you haven't found
out the answer to everything?
[Terry]
) I think I prefer my thoughts and actions to be related to reality.
[Bob Tolz]
I submit to you Terry that if your thoughts and actions focus you
*away* from the small details of daily life, then they are *not* related to
reality. Be here now, Terry. I don't see how someone's going to find
meaning elsewhere if they can't find it here, and finding meaning here today
has little to do with finding it somewhere or somewhen else. You know what
the song says: If I can make it there, I can make it anywhere.
Bob Tolz
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2102.9 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: on Mongolian spots and race - revised
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 00:09:13 -0800
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References: (200003242042.MAA01579 lists1.best.com)
(200003251612.IAA23864 lists1.best.com)
(200003261742.JAA22505 lists1.best.com)
(200003261850.KAA20278 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200003261850.KAA20278 lists1.best.com)
At 8:48 PM +0200 3/26/00, Sune Nordwall wrote:
)Dan wrote:
)
) ) Wake up, Joel, this is the -critics- list.
)
)Dan, should this be taken to mean that you want to say that you only
)want to have members on the list who agree with you in your opinion of
)waldorf educataion and anthroposophy, as it is reflected on your site,
)and not hear other opinions or the members to take part in other
)aspects of anthroposophy that can not be found on your site?
No, having other opinions is fine. Having good arguments to support
them is even better. But tracts of Anthroposophical dogma bore me.
-Dan Dugan
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2102.10 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Re: Head of French Parliamentary Comm. sentenced for calling
Anthroposophy a "sect"
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 00:23:52 -0800
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References: (200003231929.LAA02617 lists1.best.com)
(200003270044.QAA18358 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200003270044.QAA18358 lists1.best.com)
3/27/00, Sune Nordwall wrote:
)Detlef on Friday wrote about an article in Le Monde:
)
) ) the following appeared in "Le Monde" today and
) ) A can be found on the DROITS DE l'HOMME SANS FRONTIERES
) ) website.
)
)I've now translated the article published by Le Monde on Thursday, 23
)March, and put it at
)http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/krit/000323-LeMonde-eng.html
Thank you very much, Sune, for the translation. Feel free to post
translations here, also.
It's quite a remarkable story, a judge discounting parliamentary
immunity and penalizing the head of a parliamentary committee. Do
things like this happen often in France?
-Dan Dugan
--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2102 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2103 --------------
001 - Chand.Desai mcmail.vander - Re: on Mongolian spots and race
002 - Chand.Desai mcmail.vander - Re: on Mongolian spots and race - revised
003 - Terry Boardman (terry.boa - Re: Reincarnation and materialism (Diana/Bob)
004 - "Steve Premo" (premo cruz - RE: Reincarnation and materialism (Diana/Bob)
005 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: Reincarnation and materialism (Diana/Bob)
006 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: Reincarnation and materialism (Diana/Bob)
007 - "debra harvey" (debharve - Re: on Mongolian spots and race
008 - "debra harvey" (debharve - RE: Reincarnation and materialism (Diana/Bob)
009 - "J. Marshall Knight" (j.m - Re: on Mongolian spots and race
010 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - RE: Black Crayons and Stereotypes (Luke again)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2103.1 ---------------
From: Chand.Desai mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Subject: Re: on Mongolian spots and race
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 08:38:22 -0600
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[Alan]:
)I would agree that feelings are a part of "why" someone is looking at racial
)differences, and are a factor in detirmining whether an inquiry has racist
)overtones. Even when applied with all the love in the world, I still feel
)that the Steiner point of view on race, at least as expressed by the
)anthroposophists on this list, is inherantly racist.
I am not comfortable with all of the Steiner I read on this list either,
although I would not go so far as to say his view is "inherently racist". But
my disagreement was with the following statement, not Steiner:
[Alan]:
)If you are asking
)questions about racial (not cultural) differences out of simple curiosity
)with no other goal in mind than to find differences, that, in my view is
)also racist.
I repeat: "Curiosity is a human trait and, in my opinion, not racist.
To stifle curiosity for fear of racist intent is in my view (again) a tragedy."
Steiner as viewed with our present cultural sensibilities is, if not an outright
racist, at least incredibly gauche to mention racial issues. As I have written
before, judging a historical personage using today's values is
counter-productive (remember Jefferson!). Some critics have pointed out that
the real problem comes from the tendency of Anthroposophists to defend
everything that Steiner has said or written. On the other hand, to stop
studying what he did say or meant simply because some of it deals with taboo
subjects is also not a solution. Racial differences will eventually have to be
faced and accepted.
Chand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2103.2 ---------------
From: Chand.Desai mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Subject: Re: on Mongolian spots and race - revised
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 08:44:13 -0600
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[Alan ]:
)... Personally I think the test for an enlightened approach to
)spirituality is whether it is free of this type of conflict. ...
) To me Anthroposphy does not pass the test
and then
[Alan ]:
) It is psychologically healthier to
)contend with criticism when you can experience it as something as legitimate
)and as justified as your own point of view, without resorting to various
)defensive tactics.
Maybe Anthroposophy, when practiced without defensive tactics, is not
enlightened spirituality but is nevertheless good for us.
Chand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2103.3 ---------------
From: Terry Boardman (terry.boardman cableinet.co.uk)
Subject: Re: Reincarnation and materialism (Diana/Bob)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:49:56 +0100
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)
)
) From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
) Subject: RE: Reincarnation and materialism (Diana/Bob)
) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 03:23:17 -0500
)
) [Terry Boardman]
) )
) ) Sorry to disagree with you Diana and Bob, but I can't say
) ) I'm impressed with Diana's suggestion, I guess because I'm
) ) one of those pesky human beings who wants to know what
) ) it's all about - life, the universe, and everything, that is.
)
) [Bob Tolz]
) Hey, I'm one of those pesky human beings who wants to know about
) everything, too. So, why does that curiosity make it difficult for you to
) find meaning in the small details of daily life even if you haven't found
) out the answer to everything?
)
) [Terry]
) ) I think I prefer my thoughts and actions to be related to reality.
)
) [Bob Tolz]
) I submit to you Terry that if your thoughts and actions focus you
) *away* from the small details of daily life, then they are *not* related to
) reality. Be here now, Terry. I don't see how someone's going to find
) meaning elsewhere if they can't find it here, and finding meaning here today
) has little to do with finding it somewhere or somewhen else. You know what
) the song says: If I can make it there, I can make it anywhere.
)
) Bob Tolz
)
) -
Bob, please don't misunderstand me. I'm all for *looking for* and finding
the meaning in the little things of daily life as well as experiencing those
small things fully. In fact, if you go back a little
you'll find that Diana and Alan were attacking me for bringing up the "trivia" of
Mongolian spots, East Asian eye shapes and other such things, declaring
my questions - my desire to understand such things - as "racist".
No, the impression I got from Diana's comments about enjoying the simple things
of life was not so much a desire to understand them, but just a *doing*
of them. Unconscious experience can of course precede conscious
understanding of something - that happened to me in Japan in my 20s,
for example, but that unconscious experience, that simple *doing* and
*being* needs to be made conscious if one is to be really a modern adult,
I would have thought.
One of the things I like about Rudolf Steiner was
the fact that nothing was trivial for him; he could see connections between
bees and Beatitudes (off the top of my head that one, but I'm sure you
know what I mean). This ability to understand relationships between
phenomena is surely close to the very essence of what human thinking is.
"To relate the spiritual in Man (i.e. in all of Man's life experience) to the
spiritual in the Universe" - this was what Steiner repeatedly claimed
Anthroposophy is all about, was it not? A delightful series of titles from
Rudolf Steiner Press has come out over the past few years with names
like "From Beetroot to Buddhism", "From Limestone to Lucifer",
"From Elephants to Einstein". They record question and answer sessions
Steiner had with the building workers at the Goetheanum.
Regards,
Terry
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2103.4 ---------------
From: "Steve Premo" (premo cruzio.com)
Subject: RE: Reincarnation and materialism (Diana/Bob)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 09:20:06 -0800
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On 27 Mar 2000, at 3:23, Tolz, Robert wrote:
) [Terry Boardman]
) )
) ) Sorry to disagree with you Diana and Bob, but I can't say
) ) I'm impressed with Diana's suggestion, I guess because I'm
) ) one of those pesky human beings who wants to know what
) ) it's all about - life, the universe, and everything, that is.
)
) [Bob Tolz]
) Hey, I'm one of those pesky human beings who wants to know about
) everything, too. So, why does that curiosity make it difficult for you to
) find meaning in the small details of daily life even if you haven't found
) out the answer to everything?
I agree completely with everything Bob's written about this.
To me, the simplest answer to the Big Question of "why are we here" is:
To love.
And if that's where you find meaning, in "love" in all its forms and
expressions, the ultimate fate of the universe has nothing to do with
whether one's life is meaningful or not.
The Beatles were right. All you need IS love.
Steve Premo -- Santa Cruz, California
"Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carbonata descendum pantorum."
(A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.)
http://members.cruzio.com/~premo/steve.html
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2103.5 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Reincarnation and materialism (Diana/Bob)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:24:49 GMT
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[Diana]
)Terry, I don't think I qualify exactly for your stereotype of the
) )embittered "materialist," but I'd be happy to point out a few ways )you
)could "cope" with the idea that our solar system may be )extinguished eons
)from now:
)Decide that love and culture are meaningful, anyway.
)Get up and go to work. (Or tomorrow's Sunday, sleep in.) Enjoy )whatever
)time you have with your family, take your children to the )park and get
)some fresh air. Read a good book or listen to your )favorite music.
[Terry]
)Diana's suggestion is a mite California Zen isn't it?
)Or maybe Diana did actually study under a Zen Master in the
)mystic East and sussed out the "before and after -chopping wood
)and drawing water" conundrum. The difference between the before
)and after is of course that "after", one is some six inches off the
) )ground!
Sorry, I've never been to the mystic East nor even spent much time in
California. I don't know what this is about.
[Terry]
)just existing - while it may be OK for short 'time-out' periods -
)is not, I submit, what humanity - as distinct from animality - is
) )about.
Working, and spending time with loved ones, are "just existing"? Sounds like
you're the one who thinks human love and culture are meaningless.
Of course, I've only done these things for one lifetime, as far as I can
recall. Maybe love and culture get old after a few go-arounds.
Diana
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2103.6 ---------------
From: "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNSJ-LAW.COM)
Subject: RE: Reincarnation and materialism (Diana/Bob)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 12:43:43 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
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[Terry]
)
) Bob, please don't misunderstand me. I'm all for *looking for*
) and finding
) the meaning in the little things of daily life as well as
) experiencing those
) small things fully. In fact, if you go back a little
) you'll find that Diana and Alan were attacking me for
) bringing up the "trivia" of
) Mongolian spots, East Asian eye shapes and other such things,
) declaring
) my questions - my desire to understand such things - as "racist".
[Bob Tolz]
I'm all for trying to understand things, and a large portion of my
waking life is devoted to that pursuit, but it's not a pre-requisite for
finding meaning. I think that sometimes the greatest understanding and the
greatest meaning is found when the mind stops for awhile and realizes that
there are many mysteries which the mind will always find difficult to grasp
or synthesize.
[Terry]
) No, the impression I got from Diana's comments about enjoying
) the simple things
) of life was not so much a desire to understand them, but just
) a *doing* of them.
[Bob Tolz]
Restating my preceding sentence, I do not believe that it is
necessary for someone to understand things, or even to *desire* to
understand the universe, in order to find meaning in life.
Your comments regarding the Second Law of Thermodynamics imply a
whole host of attitudes which are in contrast to my statement.
[Terry]
) Unconscious experience can of course precede conscious
) understanding of something - that happened to me in Japan in my 20s,
) for example, but that unconscious experience, that simple *doing* and
) *being* needs to be made conscious if one is to be really a
) modern adult, I would have thought.
[Bob Tolz]
I do prefer a life where doing and being is made conscious, though
I'm not sure I'd classify someone who does not engage in that kind of
activity as being something other than a "modern adult."
I still find myself coming back to your implication that the
prospect of the death of the universe must result in despair for the
"materialist" person. I can't agree with that or with any notion that
suggests that the common person must be a philosopher to make life something
other than "pointless."
[Terry]
) One of the things I like about Rudolf Steiner was
) the fact that nothing was trivial for him.
[Bob Tolz]
I understand, but that virtue, like most others, is a knife with a
double-edge. One can say about a person with those characteristics: The
good thing about that person is he takes life so seriously; but the bad
thing about that person is he takes life so seriously.
There's an aphorism I came across recently which applies: Don't
take life so seriously. It's not permanent.
Of course, one could say to someone who takes that aphorism as
his/her motto: The good thing about that person is he doesn't take life too
seriously; but the bad thing about that person is he doesn't take life so
seriously.
Who was it who said, "Balance in all things?"
Bob Tolz
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2103.7 ---------------
From: "debra harvey" (debharve hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: on Mongolian spots and race
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 18:09:46 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
[Alan]
)
)Debra, the issue is not only what questions are you asking but why are you
)asking them. If you are asking a question about differing incidences of
)illness in order to guide doctors in medical assessments, it is not racist.
)If you are asking the same question to demonstrate a difference in "life
)forces", or spirituality it is racist in my view. If you are asking
)questions about racial (not cultural) differences out of simple curiosity
)with no other goal in mind than to find differences, that, in my view is
)also racist.
[Harve]
Alan, I spent some of the weekend trying to figure out why I reacted to
Diana the way I did. I've decided that there are two reasons. First, I was
frustrated with what I consider a narrow-minded Puritanism from both you and
Diana on the issue of race. I don, however, think that you are well
meaning. That I can deal with and recognize that people view the world very
differently and have different comfort levels. In fact, I can ever
rationalize the time this list takes away from my work--having that
realization thrown back in my face helps with jury work.
Second, I felt that I was being called a racist for not jumping on this
bandwagon--and that deeply offended and angered me. Probably the most
important reason that my son attends the school he does and will continue to
do so is because it is racially and ethnically diverse. I consider this to
be of critical importance. The people that are important to my family are a
rainbow of colors: my kid's Grandma TuTu (also the godmother to my
daughter) is from Haiti. Their uncle Abu, who often picks my son up from
school and who possesses the only lap my 15 month old daughter will sleep
in, is a 6'5 ebony man from the Ivory Coast. These people are my family and
I love and respect them with all my heart. We spend holidays and all
special occasions together. My son's best friend's parents are from Haiti.
When he turned four last weekend, we had a party composed of adults and
children. I did not take a head count, but over half were black or of mixed
races. When someone commented on this to Grandma TuTu, she said that "Debra
has an international soul."
My son still has not noticed any racial differences and we purposely do not
talk about people by race in front of him because we do not even want to put
it in his consciousness. We have chosen to remain in a very diverse city so
that our children will grow up in an international community. When we go to
the local park, the playground is filled with arabs (Lebanese, Egyptian,
Syrian), jews (orthodox, chassidic, conservative, reform), blacks (american,
nigerian, haitian, botswanian, congo) whites (americans, serbs, russians,
bosnian, Indians, Pakastanians, asians (japanese, chinese, vietnamese),
hispanic and a smattering of the rest of the universe. (One thing that I
have noticed is that people from other cultures do not hesitate to intervene
when they think another child is acting inappropriately--it takes a village
. . . .). The energy level is a whole lot different in our neighborhood
park than it is a few miles north on the northshore.
I truly believe that living, working, playing and TALKING together is the
only way racism will be alleviated.
I have close black friends (although I admit that they are mainly lawyers
and other professionals). Our relationships only became close when we
addressed the race issue and I was able to ask them questions that I have
about race. In fact, a few years ago, I had a question I wanted to ask an
African American friend about black perceptions. I was afraid to do so
because I thought she might think I was racist. When I finally mustered
enough courage, it turned out that this was a hot issue in the black
community. A long discussion ensued and our friendship has deepened. I
have found that to be true in other relationships where the issue was race,
religion, or sexual preference.
I would not say that I have gotten beyond race, but I am trying. I live in
Chicago, which Dr. King said exhibited the worst racism he had ever seen. I
am probably in a racial minority at work and the great majority of the
people I represent are African American. When you try a case in Cook
County, Illinois, race is always in your face big time.
I am going to make a point of addressing racial spirituality with my black
friends. I am going to ask them if they think it is racist to ask the
question--although I've got a pretty good idea right now what the answer
will be. And, I feel pretty confident that our relationships will deepen
and strengthen for asking the question.
Several years ago, when I was a new lawyer and was working on a death
penalty case with a very seasoned criminal defense lawyer, I commented that
the draw of a certain judge in one of her death cases was good--he was
reputed to be "very liberal" and anti-death penalty. She disagreed. She
said that the worst judges for those cases were the white liberal judges.
Once they got a look at the gory crime pictures, they freaked out and all
their theoretical "liberal" viewpoints went right out the window. She said
that she would much rather have a conservative, tough, and street smart
judge. She turned out to be right--the "liberal" judge made her life hell
with emotional rulings.
Debra Harvey)
______________________________________________________
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2103.8 ---------------
From: "debra harvey" (debharve hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Reincarnation and materialism (Diana/Bob)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 18:19:49 GMT
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Ever been to a Japanese tea ceremony? Tried to be fully present in traffic?
Washing dishes? Changing a diaper? Sweeping the floor?
Life is precious in its most "mundane" and "profound" moments.
In fact, I would say that for me, the area above my eyebrows often prevents
me from fully experiencing the divine.
______________________________________________________
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2103.9 ---------------
From: "J. Marshall Knight" (j.marshall.knight worldnet.att.net)
Subject: Re: on Mongolian spots and race
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 09:47:06 -0800
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)[Harve]
)
)Thanks for the permission, Diana. And I guess if I consider your
)perspective to be vanilla, whitebread, suburban, pc, middle class, as of
)someone who probably doesn't even know many (if any) non-whites, I'll let
)you know. Incidentally, Diana, when was the last time you had an black
)person over to your house for dinner?
JMK: "Hello, I am J. Marshall Knight. This is my first response to this
list. Debra your remarks here are extremely dated. Why would anyone have to
invite a "Black" person over to his or her house to prove they are
non-racist? Your own racist attitude reveals itself in your response.
Inherent in the response is the implicit notion that the "inviter" is in a
more powerful, superior position than the "invitee". But, I must say that
many of the remarks on this list have this sort of implicit, superior
attitudes in them especially when you are referring to the polarity between
Black and White with White on top, which in my understanding was initiated
by White Europeans. I will surely have to say more about this but for now I
thank you for getting me involved. (Please be forgiving for the lack of
separation between sentences but for some reason my return key is not
working this morning.)"
-----Original Message-----
From: debra harvey (debharve hotmail.com)
To: waldorf-critics lists.best.com (waldorf-critics lists.best.com)
Date: Friday, March 24, 2000 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: on Mongolian spots and race
))[Harve]
))
)))Oh, so you don't object to the asking the question, as long as you get
the
)))right answer. Quite frankly, I prefer Alan's general taboo )on asking
)))questions of this nature to your approach.
)
)[Diana]
))
))You can ask any question you like! If I think the answer is racist, I will
))tell you. Fair enough?
)
)[Harve]
)
)Thanks for the permission, Diana. And I guess if I consider your
)perspective to be vanilla, whitebread, suburban, pc, middle class, as of
)someone who probably doesn't even know many (if any) non-whites, I'll let
)you know. Incidentally, Diana, when was the last time you had an black
)person over to your house for dinner?
)
)
)
)
)______________________________________________________
)Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
)
)
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2103.10 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: RE: Black Crayons and Stereotypes (Luke again)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:38:55 GMT
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)[Diana, on watercolor]
)And it would *never* be used as a way to interest someone in making
) )letters or learning to read or write -- that would defeat the whole
)purpose, from a pure Waldorf point of view.
[Luke]
)Diana perhaps you could shed some light on this off-the-cuff remark )from
)your vast knowledge of the topic.
Happy to oblige. Excerpts from my vast knowledge coming up. Sorry, Luke, but
I'm pretty well versed in the purposes of watercolor painting in Waldorf, in
early childhood at least (which is what Sarina was describing; she runs a
daycare and preschool, I believe, and was describing using watercolor
painting to interest a child in learning his letters). But in Waldorf, the
painting activity would be considered diametrically opposed to what is
involved in acquiring literacy.
According to the Waldorf teachers I worked with, and Waldorf sources I have
read, teaching k'gten age children their letters is misguided in the first
place, causing "hardening," directing mental energies away from creative
processes into abstraction and all that, teaching them to narrow their
understanding rather than letting everything flow, which is the purpose of
the painting activity.
Please correct me if I misunderstood this somewhere.
Diana
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--------------- END waldorf-critics.v001.n2103 ---------------
-------------- BEGIN waldorf-critics.v001.n2104 --------------
001 - "Diana Winters" (winters_ - Re: on Mongolian spots and race
002 - "debra harvey" (debharve - Re: on Mongolian spots and race
003 - Chand.Desai mcmail.vander - Re: on Mongolian spots and race
004 - Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordw - Re: Head of French Parliamentary Comm. sentenced for calling A
005 - momof2gals mindspring.com - To Terry/on eye shape, etc.
006 - Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.c - Note from Nunhofer
007 - Christopher Yavelow (Chri - Re: Note from Nunhofer
008 - "Robert Jan Kelder" (wins - FW: FW: Robert Jan Kelder to Dan Dugen
009 - "Tolz, Robert" (RTolz TNS - RE: To Terry/on eye shape, etc.
010 - "debra harvey" (debharve - Re: Note from Nunhofer
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2104.1 ---------------
From: "Diana Winters" (winters_diana hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: on Mongolian spots and race
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:42:16 GMT
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[Chand]
)to stop studying what he did say or meant simply because some of it )deals
)with taboo subjects is also not a solution.
Nobody asked anthroposophists to stop studying Steiner. Study whatever
interests you (though I think it's interesting that a number of the people
defending him here haven't read him). Critics have suggested that
anthroposophists should repudiate Steiner's racist statements.
)Racial differences will eventually have to be faced and accepted.
I know I'm a broken record, but I haven't given up . . . narrow-minded
Puritan or not. It's not about "accepting" racial differences. It's about
the meanings and value judgments anthroposophists attach to these
differences. Whew!
Diana
______________________________________________________
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2104.2 ---------------
From: "debra harvey" (debharve hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: on Mongolian spots and race
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:57:56 GMT
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[Knight]
? Your own racist attitude reveals itself in your response.
)Inherent in the response is the implicit notion that the "inviter" is in a
)more powerful, superior position than the "invitee".
[Harve]
Perhaps you missed my apology to everyone about the post you have quoted.
Why don't you tell us about yourself?
______________________________________________________
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--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2104.3 ---------------
From: Chand.Desai mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Subject: Re: on Mongolian spots and race
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:51:44 -0600
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[Chand]
))to stop studying what he (steiner) did say or meant simply because some of it
deals
))with taboo subjects is also not a solution.
[Diana]:
)Nobody asked anthroposophists to stop studying Steiner. Study whatever
)interests you
You are right, nobody asked anyone else to stop studying Steiner. My post was
made in response to one of Alan's. Here is the context:
[Alan]:
)))If you are asking
)))questions about racial (not cultural) differences out of simple curiosity
)))with no other goal in mind than to find differences, that, in my view is
)))also racist.
[Chand]:
))Curiosity is a human trait and, in my opinion, not racist.
))To stifle curiosity for fear of racist intent is in my view (again) a tragedy.
[Diana]:
) (though I think it's interesting that a number of the people
)defending him here haven't read him).
Are you referring to me? In that same post I wrote:
[Chand]
))Steiner as viewed with our present cultural sensibilities is, if not an
outright
))racist, at least incredibly gauche to mention racial issues. As I have
written
))before, judging a historical personage using today's values is
))counter-productive (remember Jefferson!).
Is this what you call a defense of Steiner? If so, I think it reflects a real
"us vs them" mindset on your part, Diana.
Next you write:
[Diana]:
) Critics have suggested that
)anthroposophists should repudiate Steiner's racist statements.
I suppose I should be flattered, as imitation is its highest form. From my same
post:
[Chand]:
))Some critics have pointed out that
))the real problem comes from the tendency of Anthroposophists to defend
))everything that Steiner has said or written.
Wouldn't have just been easier and quicker to agree with me?
Chand
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2104.4 ---------------
From: Sune Nordwall (Sune.Nordwall home.se)
Subject: Re: Head of French Parliamentary Comm. sentenced for calling Anthroposophy a "sect"
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 01:43:47 +0200
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References: (200003231929.LAA02617 lists1.best.com)
(200003270044.QAA18358 lists1.best.com) (200003270824.AAA00587 lists1.best.com)
Dan wrote:
) It's quite a remarkable story, a judge discounting parliamentary
) immunity and penalizing the head of a parliamentary committee.
I don't know. The French Constitution can be found at
http://www.uni-wuerzburg.de/law/fr00t___.html
It seems parliamentary immunity for French MP:s is regulated in
article 26, that can be found at (maybe also in other places):
http://www.uni-wuerzburg.de/law/fr00000_.html#A026_
Article 26 [Indemnity, Immunity]
(1) No member of Parliament may be prosecuted or subjected to inquiry,
arrest, detention, or trial on account of opinions expressed or votes
cast in the course of his or her duties.
(2) No member of Parliament may, during parliamentary sessions, be
prosecuted or arrested for a felony or misdemeanor without the
authority of the Assembly of which he or she is a member, except in
cases of flagrante delicto.
(3) When Parliament is not in session, no member of Parliament may be
arrested without the authority of the bureau of the Assembly of which
he or she is a member, except in the case of flagrante delicto,
authorized prosecution, or final sentence.
(4) The detention or prosecution of a member of Parliament shall be
suspended if the Assembly of which he or she is a member so demands.
The court does not seem to have found that it granted mr Guyard
immunity from prosecution for defamation and the Parliament
(Assembly?) does not seem to have demanded that the prosecution of mr
Guyard be suspended, even though he is a member of the Socialist party
(PS) which belongs to the leftist parliamentory majority under the
leadership of Prime Minister Lionel Jospin.
http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/textes/html/fic188107290000.htm seems to
contain parts of legislation at least referring to a law regulating
defamation, Act No. 72-546 (1 July 1972) - in French.
http://www.pch.gc.ca/multi/hate/country.htm describes its essence in
more Internetically understandable language.
FRANCE
Legislative Overview
[snip]
'Freedom of the press is guaranteed. However, it is an offence to stir
up discrimination, hatred or violence against a person or a group of
persons because of their ethnicity, nationality, race or religion
according to Act No. 72-546 (1 July 1972). The act also makes
defamation, insults and the refusal of rights on the basis of origin
or their adherence or non-adherence to a determined ethnic group,
nation, race or religion criminal offences.'
Dan:
) Do things like this happen often in France?
I don't know. Maybe some French lurker on the list does?
Sune Nordwall
Stockholm, Sweden
http://hem.passagen.se/thebee/indexeng.htm
- a site on science, homeopathy, cosmological cell biology and
EU as a mechanical esoteric temple and threefolding of society
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2104.5 ---------------
From: momof2gals mindspring.com
Subject: To Terry/on eye shape, etc.
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:19:19 -0500
Terry and everyone else reading this:
Please correct me if I have somehow gotten lost in this thread
about Mongolian spots and eye shape, etc. But the last time I posted
on this, I distinctly recall asking Mr. Boardman to enlighen me as to
the spiritual "meaning" of the fact that ONLY people of East Asian
origin have Mongolian spots and a distinctive shape of eyes that may
or may not include a special type of lid fold (please excuse me for
forgetting the name of this ... it's been a long day!)
Since then I have waited for your answer (I believe that Steve
Premo also was waiting), but all that I have seen posted by you and
others is a discussion as to whether or not it is, indeed, OK to even
ask such questions.
I am certain that most people find nothing wrong with questioning
or wondering why certain peoples who originated in certain parts of
the world developed certain physical characteristics. What's racist in
that?
However, I DO believe that one treds into possibly racist
territory when one begins to attempt to link certain characteristics
of personality, intelligence, depth of soul, etc. to certain physical
characteristics (race.)
You, Mr. Boardman, have stated quite clearly that you believe
Rudolf Steiner's teachings and observations that certain races are
different spiritually in terms of their ages, or the number of times
they have reincarnated.
Then you offered as an example the so-called "facts" that only
people of East Asian origin have Mongolian spots and eye folds, etc.
and I asked you HOW these physical characteristics PROVE Steiner's
concepts.
I am still waiting for an answer. To tell you the truth, I am
certain that your answer will NOT convince me of the veracity of your
point of view.
I am extremely curious, however, as to what kind of answer you
have to offer. Wel
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2104.6 ---------------
From: Dan Dugan (dan dandugan.com)
Subject: Note from Nunhofer
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:02:00 -0800
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References: (200003271916.TAA25649 ns1.mistral.co.uk)
In-Reply-To: (200003271916.TAA25649 ns1.mistral.co.uk)
3/27/00, Nicholas Nunhofer (nunhofer mistral.co.uk) wrote:
)I HAVE JUST BEEN TO YOUR SIGHT.
)
)I CONSIDER IT A TOTAL DISGRACE.
)
)BOLSHEVIK RUSSIA AND NAZI GERMANY ARE EXAMPLES OF REGIMES WHICH BENNADE
)THINGS LIKE WALKDORF EDUCATION - BUT THEN COMMIES AND NAZIS ARE UNDER EVERY
)TREE!
)
)NICK NUNHOFER
Dear Nick, thanks for your note. I think you mean "banned." Did you
know that the Nazis disagreed about Waldorf? Some argued that Waldorf
furthered the aims of the Third Reich. This is why some of the German
schools stayed open through much of the Nazi period.
I don't think you'll find anyone on our web site proposing "banning"
Waldorf education. Exposing the Anthroposophical content of the
education that has heretofore been kept hidden, yes.
Are you a Waldorf student or graduate?
Sincerely, Dan Dugan
Secretary, PLANS
copy to waldorf-critics list
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2104.7 ---------------
From: Christopher Yavelow (Christopher yav.com)
Subject: Re: Note from Nunhofer
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 23:44:47 +0100
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References: (200003271916.TAA25649 ns1.mistral.co.uk)
(200003280426.UAA29267 lists1.best.com)
In-Reply-To: (200003280426.UAA29267 lists1.best.com)
Dan Dugan wrote:
)I don't think you'll find anyone on our web site proposing "banning"
)Waldorf education.
Although some of the people reading this list do propose such
measures (for example, me).
Christopher Yavelow
--------------- MESSAGE waldorf-critics.v001.n2104.8 ---------------
From: "Robert Jan Kelder" (winst wxs.nl)
Subject: FW: FW: Robert Jan Kelder to Dan Dugen
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 15:27:17 +0200
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Dear Waldorf Critics and friends,
This is the (revised and edited) third round in the Kelder-Dugan shoot out.
Please no more shots below the belt. First reply by Dugan is marked DD. My
reply to that is marked Kelder, my next reply RJ.
Greetings from Amsterdam, City of Inspiration according to its mayor Patijn.
Robert Jan Kelder
3/22/00, Robert Jan Kelder wrote:
DD:Sorry, Robert, I intentionally took advantage of your mistake in
sending your list of friends in the clear. I won't send anything more
to them. I saw it as a way of puncturing your pomposity.
RJ: Why bother my friends with my so-called pomposity, why not enlighten me
om my weighty bearing instead, for I am not sure what you are getting at. Or
do you take your comments to be self-evident?
DD: Spare me, please. (Steiner said there are 12 possible world-views...)
Call me one-sided if you want, I aim to take a view of the world as
close to reality as I can get, and I don't intend to "balance" by
giving the other 99 gazillion world views "equal prominence." Is
nonsense of equal value to hard-won knowledge?
RJ: Not to fools it is. They prefer nonsense. Nihilists and virtual realists
even thrive on it. Reality is no ready made thing that you can get close to,
that is an illusion. Reality is a product of cognition i.e. union of concept
and percept. Percept alone tends to materialism and realism, concept to
idealism and spiritualism.
)This is uniquely the case with the work of RS
)(and other great spritual works of mankind such as parts of the Bible and
)the Parzival by Wolfram von Eschenbach).
DD: "Great spiritual works of mankind?" Look, Robert, waldorf-critics is
a place for discussion of Waldorf and Anthroposophy -from outside the
cult of Rudolf Steiner-. Since you obviously don't qualify for that
viewpoint, I suppose you're on a Michaelic mission to slay us with
your superior rhetoric. Waldorf-critics is an open forum, so you're
welcome to try, but don't expect to get a lot of respect.
RJ: Your supposition is false, Mr Dugan. I'm not out to slay anyone, but to
offer convincing arguments to people with open minds and to seek fellow
searchers for and shapers of the true, good and beautiful. Respect is fine
if you can get it, but I am not pressing for it and I am not engaging in a
popularity contest. My sentence about A. being in line with the Bible and
Parzifal was in brackets indicating it was a slightly off the cuf remark.
)During my anthroposophical studies
)in LA in the early seventies with a philosopher and an astrologer it was
)discovered that the paragraphs of RS's books and lectures succeed each
other
)according to the evolving course of the 12 worldviews ranging from idealism
)through materialism and realism to spiritualism. These 12 worldviews can be
)developed from the concept of knowledge as the union of percept and concept
)as developed in RS's basic epistemological works. A work on this subject is
)forthcoming.
DD: In my lectures I point out how Anthroposophists reify Steiner's
concepts, and then talk to you as though they were agreed-upon facts,
viz "the 12 senses," "the four temperaments," "the festivals," and
now "the 12 worldviews."
RJ: Please read what I write carefully; I wrote these 12 worldviews can be
DEVELOPPED, based on the natural scientific method of physic observation
employed by RSt in his early philosophical works where there was no explicit
mention yet of A. as such.
) )Well, I am dismayed at the site's predominantly biased, uncritical and
) )incomplete portrayal of Rudolf Steiner and his anthroposophy as a
genuine
) )spiritual science based on a critical, i.e. not naive epistemology.
)
DD: Science it ain't. If one can be sophisticated and naive at the same
)time, Anthroposophy is both.
Kelder:
)If we restrict ourselves to the level of ranting and raving in terms of
)black and white, we will only create more "demons". A. is a critical
)discipline, as opposed to naive because it is based on a science of
)knowledge. In this sense it is sophisticated and not naive, another
question
)altogether is what others make of it. Here we must discriminate.
"Science of knowledge" is pretentious puffery.
RJ: Why be so hard headed and naively critical? Are you not aware of the
early philosophical works of RSt or do you dismiss them on the basis of
reasoned argument as such?
Kelder:
) )Your
) )list of articles from Holland e.g. include none of the many articles and
) )booklets by anthroposophists reputing the politically correct attacks
and
) )insinuations made here by incompetent journalists and would-be
philosophers
) )against the integrity of R. Steiner,
DD:
)Of course not. You have your own presses cranking your your
)propaganda. I take it you're not too happy with your European critics.
Kelder
)You may have gathered from my epistle, that the A. movement is not a
unified
)field, you cannot address it or me as you in the plural. There is no
)question of presses or journals cranking "my propaganda", on the contrary
my
)letters, motions and articles have very often been refused for publication.
I'm fully aware that Anthroposophy is full of contentious cranks who
refuse to speak to each other. But they all follow Steiner, that's my
definition of an Anthropop.
RJ: I do not refuse to speak to anyone within reasonable bounds. Anyone can
say he is following R. Steiner. Even the president of the GAS. But how do
you know for certain he is truly representing A.? Only by first gaining a
immanent critical concept of A. and then using it as a standard to measure
the writings and actions of the individual(s) in question. That is being
critical and those are the people RSt wanted as his "followers", not
intellectual crooks and cronies. Just imagine, if there was someone or some
group wishing to destroy A. as a new spiritual science for the benefit of
humanity and earth, or even as the dawn of the new mysteries that closed at
the time of the mystery of Golgotha, he or they would certainly not go about
it the more or less open way you do, but covertly, try to get to the central
positions of power and do as if, covert, onder cover. Why is it that no
creative single individuality has broken through with the help of the AS
within, but on the contrary broke away? It is not as simple as it looks, my
friend.
)Again this is, with all respect, your bias, a statement devoid of real
)substance because you have not really observed the field in question or act
)on isolated hearsay. The thing is not to be a so-called radical in
politics,
)for politics is spiritual warfare based on misleading your opponent (with
)which the AS has nothing to do, except to try as individuals to enter this
)field with the aim of transformimg politics into a rights issue).
DD: I view politics as a high calling devoted to the service of humanity,
but I realize that's a minority view.
RJ: It is an idealistic view that is not borne out as you imply by the
facts. From a dialectical point of view though it would be necessary to go
into politics to transform it from the cat and mouse game that it is to a
rights state, and that is just what social organcis is aiming for with the
added bonus that besides humanity it also wants to serve the earth. Starting
point though is not politics but the economy, aim is to engender just or
fair prices. In the word "just" you have an element of justice, the life of
rights in the economic sphere. See my translation of The Just Price"of which
I attach my introductions.
)Rather be a radical in the field of true cognition in the sense of laying
bare the
)foundations and component parts of valid judgments and practice this as the
)highest art, conceptual art. This is the road to the Virtues, a title of
one
)of H. Witzenmann's books.
I agree that epistemology (how is reliable knowledge obtained) is
very important.
RJ: Aha, thus no pretentious puffery!
) )including a booklet called "Geen sprake
) )van..." that I wrote with three other anthro authors on the "Van Barda
) )interim report on A. and the question of racism", which itself includes
) )politically correct segments, as some anthro's themselves are beginning
to
) )soften up and become clouded and fearful in the face of massive attacks
) )from a.o. so-called anti-racist organisations heavily sponsored by the
Dutch
) )governments, who, to put it bluntly, in order to justify their existence
) )are constantly on the lookout for their prey...
Oh, those nasty Dutch, daring to oppose racism in Waldorf schools. (sarcasm)
RJ: The Dutch were not that courageous during the Nazi occupation (when the
real racists showed up) when only about 5-10% of the population joined the
active resistance. Sarcasm then would have only resulted then in getting
your head blown off or worse.
)I have talked to some of these
) )experts denouncing Steiner, who have never even read a word by him.
) )Of course A. has been misused by some so-called anthro's, but that is no
) )reason to throw away the baby with the bathwater as you, respectively
your
) )site does so unabashedly.
)
DD: )The baby has failed to thrive, due to lack of an essential nutrient,
)critical thinking.
Kelder:
)Here you have a point, but I ask you to practice, if you can, what you
)preach.
Fair enough.
) )Is this what you call free speech and Pacific
) )Justice; it's more like lynch justice of the days of the Wild West. The
) )translators of the Dutch articles, including that smear pamphlet by T.
) )Jeurissen without any scientific basis
)
DD: This isn't science, it's politics. A Waldorf parent, deeply disturbed
)by racism in her child's lesson books, was courageous enough to stand
)up to the system. (See the article on the PLANS web site).
)
Kelder: I know the article from before. She was disturbed by a.o. the
statement that
)blacks have big lips and a feeling for rhythm, which may be a stereotype,
)but not untrue.
DD: Ah, yes, the Anthroposophical position: we're not racists, we're just
speaking the truth and we're sorry if it's not politically correct.
Correlary to "Some of Steiner is difficult."
RJ: Gross simplification of the facts, I'm afraid.
)Besides, such descriptions can be read in many dictionaries
)and reference books standing on the shelves. Nowhere is there any concept
)developed about what she understands under racism, only examples. The
)scientific motivation for her tirade she got from other pamphlets which
)cannot seriously be considered as objective research, as far as
)anthroposophy as such is concerned. Again, she may have pointed her finger
)on some isolated shortcomings in the "system", but an investigation
launched
)by the Dutch government found no evidence for the accusations of racism and
)discrimination.
DD: Critics find ample foundation for the Dutch schools' racism in
Steiner's writings, and those of Anthroposophists following him.
RJ: Again it depends on what your concept or rather representation of racism
is. (There is only one true, objective concept of anything, but many,
subjective representations of the same. This is the view of realism as
opposed to nominalism. According to the former there is a fundamental
difference in the quality of conscuiousness between a pure concept and a
subjective representation or men